
oldsmobile-digest          Wednesday, 22 May 1996       Volume 01 : Number 182


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 15:37:15 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Q's

At 03:57 PM 5/21/96 -0300, you wrote:

>          
>          Uhhh... I always thought generators were significantly 
>          longer than alternators, about the size and shape of an old 
>          axial (A4) style air conditioning compressor, while the 
>          alternator is shaped more like the newer radial (R6) A/C 
>          units.  Also, aren't generators typically painted steel, 
>          while alternators are bare aluminum?
>          

That was my understanding, also.  I always thought generators were longer;
at least every one I have seen was.  Never seen a steel alternator or an
aluminum generator, either.

Just my 2 pennies.
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

 "I was put on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things;
    right now I'm so far behind, I'll never die"  --Calvin

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 15:42:59 -0300
Subject: Re: The heat is on

At 06:32 PM 5/21/96 -0300, you wrote:
>HI!
>
>Anybody out there ever tried to run an engine without a thermostat? 

Yes, I wouldn't recommend it, though.  No way to control engine temp.  It
will run hot on hotter days, and may have trouble warming up on cold mornings.  

>I can't find a 160 F thermostat for my car, 

The coolest thermostat I have ever found was 180 F.

>so I thought I could just let 
>the coolant go throught the radiator all the time. One thing that worries 
>me is that those thermostats restrict coolant flow (compared with an empty
>thermostat housing...)

A little, but you can buy high performance, high flow thermostats.

>to the radiator, so that the coolant stays 
>longer in the radiator (?) and gets cooler. If I skip the thermostat, 
>will the coolant run too fast and stay hot once it's out of the radiator? 
>I'm sure anyway the engine will manage the stay hot (it's a 472 
>C*dill*c), even without a thermostat.
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

 "I was put on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things;
    right now I'm so far behind, I'll never die"  --Calvin

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 16:48:40 -0300
Subject: Re: The heat is on 

          Anybody out there ever tried to run an engine without a 
          thermostat?
          
          I've done this with a 350 Olds in Massachusetts with no 
          problems, back when I didn't know about the required 
          thermostat restriction.  Two options:  
          
          Moroso markets restrictor washers to install in place of 
          your t-stat.  Several different hole diameters are 
          available, allowing you to "tune" for max performance (but 
          only after eliminating all hyphens for weight savings).  
          Note you could probably duplicate these with tin snip, hole 
          saw, etc.
          
          Even lower cost would be to simply cut up your old t-stat to 
          remove the valve part.  The remaining housing would probably 
          function just fine as a restrictor.
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 15:56:25 -0300
Subject: Re: The heat is on 

At 06:32 PM 5/21/96 -0300, you wrote:
>HI!
>
>Anybody out there ever tried to run an engine without a thermostat? I 
>can't find a 160 F thermostat for my car, so I thought I could just let 
>the coolant go throught the radiator all the time. 

Your engine will be very slow to warm up, which would be much more 
noticeable in the winter when you want heat for warmth, defrosters,
and so forth.  But the engine will also be less efficient.  The hotter
the engine can run (up to a point, of course), the more efficient
it is.  

Another way to think about this is, if a car could run fine without
a thermostat, why would manufacturers bother to put them in?



************************************************
Daniel A. Gulino
Associate Professor and Graduate Chairman
Department of Chemical Engineering
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio  45701-2979
(614) 593-1495
(614) 593-0873 (fax)
gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu
http://www.ent.ohiou.edu/che/faculty/gulino.html
************************************************

------------------------------

From: "Shawn M. Twomey" <stwom@ctp.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 16:36:03 -0300
Subject: Re:  time to dump? 

>Linkage sticks open every once in a while, even though I keep it well lubed,
>causing the accelorator to stick to the floor. I need to check for a busted
>motor mount.

I had this problem on my '85.  Every so often, when I floored the
accelerator, it would stay attached to the floor when I took my foot off.
There's a little lever gizmo mechanism (good description, no?) that prevents
the third and fourth barrels from opening before the car is warmed up.  This
had broken loose, and with the throttle at WOT, it would rotate under the,
uh, linkage thingy and wedge it open.  If nothing else works, take the carb
off and move the throttle back and forth-you might be able to get it to
stick and ID what's keeping it open.

__________________________________________________________________________
Shawn M. Twomey     |  "No!  Try NOT!  Do, or do not.  There is no try."
stwom@ctp.com       |  -Yoda
__________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

From: eda@dl.tc.faa.gov
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 16:38:55 -0300
Subject: Re: Time to Dump? 

>Power antenna doa, and looks like you need to remove the front body panel
>to replace.

Haven't gotten around to it yet, but was just discussing this and happened to look at my Haynes manual last night.  While it's not an absolute wealth of info on the subject, it does say to get at it by removing the tire (semi-optional, actually, but I would) and then loosening the plastic wheel-well cover - not removing the whole fender.

Other than that, I agree with Andy - some stuff to be expected, repeated stuff sounds like you need to look for an underlying cause.  Doors are notorious, but how 'bout drilling some drain holes, and plug any gaping holes along the top/sides, if there were any in '86.

Ed Atlee			'77 Cutlass Supreme
eda@dl.tc.faa.gov		'84 Hurst/Olds
	R O C K E T	P O W E R E D ! !

------------------------------

From: peter_teubel@mail.hanks.com
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 17:36:27 -0300
Subject: Parts Needed 

     
     I'm looking for a few parts for my 1951 Olds 98 4-door Sedan.  If 
     anyone can provide me with any leads, I'd appreciate it.
     
     (2) Rear tail light bezels (mine are in multiple pieces) 
     (1) Reverse light lens (clear glass, not plastic)
     (1) Rear tail light lens (red)
     
     Thanks!
     
     
     
     
     
     
     Peter G. Teubel
     peter_teubel@hanks.com
     '51 98
     
     

------------------------------

From: MIKE COCCAGNA <mikec@pop.kis.net>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 18:03:32 -0300
Subject: Re: Time to Dump?

> >Power antenna doa, and looks like you need to remove the front body
> >panel to replace.
> 
> Haven't gotten around to it yet, but was just discussing this and
> happened to look at my Haynes manual last night.  While it's not an
> absolute wealth of info on the subject, it does say to get at it by
> removing the tire (semi-optional, actually, but I would) and then
> loosening the plastic wheel-well cover - not removing the whole
> fender.

Is the motor dead or is the antenna part busted?  New antennas are 
rather economical and easy to install.  I replaced the antenna on my 
Calais (FWD) based Quad442 in about 1/2 hour with simple tools.  
Taking the motor out is simple - there are 2 or 3 bolts holding on 
the mount to the fender (plus the funny one at the top of the 
fender which had 2 wrenches supplied with the new part) and two
holding the motor to the fender.  There is another 2 screws holding 
the case together in case you wish to look at the inside and pretend 
you can fix it if it's the dead part.  I merely removed the clips holding 
in the wheel liner, and worked around it, so tire removal was 
unnecessary (but if you're running with the special 18" rim option, 
it may slow you down!).

Mike
'91 W-40 Quad442

------------------------------

From: Jeff Hunter <jchunter@xcelco.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 17:08:59 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds Engine Article... 

At 01:32 AM 3/6/96 -0400, you wrote:
>May 20, 1996
>
>Some while back, while attending a local Olds meeting, one of the members
>brought-in a xeroxed 10+ page article on Oldsmobile engines.  I was
>broken-down into 2 primary parts; Small Block, & Big block.  It covered in
>great detail how best to build your engine, and where to get the necessary
>parts (ie; Mondello, Dave Smith, Batten etc.).
>
>To make a short story long, does ANYBODY know what publication & month this
>article came from?!  Olds doesn't get this kind of print space (outside JWO)
>more than once every generation or so & I'd like to make it available
>electronically via Bryce's Site if anyone can point me in the right
direction...
>
>Thanks,
>
>Scott Martindale
>smardale@onramp.net
>
>'65 442 Holiday Coupe
>'65 442 Convertible


Posted this to the group in case anyone else is interested out there.  I
believe the article that Scott is talking about is from the March 1992 and
May 1992 'Musclecars' magazine.  I do not have a copy of either of these,
sorry. 'Musclecars' was recently bought by 'Musclecar Review' (arghhh)  so i
don't know if you will be able to get back issues.

Thanks
Jeff Hunter
jchunter@xcelco.on.ca

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 16:08:49 -0300
Subject: Re: Time to Dump? 

>Is the motor dead or is the antenna part busted?  New antennas are 
>rather economical and easy to install.

IMHO, it sounds like antenna repairs on this car would be like rearranging
the deckchairs on the Titanic. Despite the power antenna in the fender,
does the car still come with one embedded in the windshield? Maybe that
can be reconnected so she can at least have some tunes cheaply.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Dan Williams <dr_olds@kfmw.net>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 10:39:20 -0300
Subject: Books

Right before I moved, I was trying to get 2 books.  One was Mondello's 
Olds book and the other was Cars & Parts Oldsmobile by the number (or 
something similar).  I think the Mondello book is out.  Does anybody 
have either one of these books?  If so, any comments?

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 17:29:58 -0300
Subject: Re: time to dump?

> >Linkage sticks open every once in a while, even though I keep it well lubed,
> >causing the accelorator to stick to the floor. I need to check for a busted
> >motor mount.

I just remembered a similar problem on my dad's '78 LeMans. When you set
the choke by pushing the pedal to the floor it wouldn't release all the
way. Car would start and the 305 would immediately go to what sounded like
about 4000 RPM. A little scary. It did this from the day it was brand new,
but never predictably, maybe once in 100 starts, and thankfully, never
when the engine was already running. When you shut it off and reset the
choke with the pedal, it would be fine. Never did it when you took it to
the dealer either. Sounded like just a sticky choke/fast idle mechanism
but they never did succeed in fixing it 100%. 

Maybe a design problem with these?

I haven't thought about that car in years until today. Think it was the 
first one off the assembly line in '77 for the new '78 model year. 
Nothing fit. Window cranks stood out from the door panel about 1/2" or 
more (must have used '77 shafts), interior trim pieces fit was 
theoretical at best, rear door vent window frames rusted out within 2 
years, as did the roof of the wagon where the roof rack was attached. 
Vents didn't work, driver's door glass fell into the door about 5 times, 
rear tailgate rattled and leaked like a sieve. Car lasted him about 3 
years before it started burning oil and he ditched it. About 50,000 miles 
on it at the time.

The thing I remember most about it was the card in the glove box from the 
GM Assembly Division that built it with the heading "Baltimore Sends It's 
Best"... hate to see their worst. A shame, because when it was right it 
was a nice car.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 18:33:44 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Olds Engine Article... 

>Some while back, while attending a local Olds meeting, one of the members 
>brought-in a xeroxed 10+ page article on Oldsmobile engines. 

        Could this have been from the Petersen Publishing "Oldsmobile 
        in Action" special issue?  I've got the book at home, but I 
        seem to recall that it contained a rather lengthy article on 
        the Olds V-8 from the original Rocket V-8 through the 215 and 
        on to the current 260-455 family.  The book also had the 
        obligitory article on the W-43 Hemi and OW-43 cammer, as well 
        as Quad 4 info.  I'll check tonight and get back to you.
        
        Joe Padavano
        jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
        
        66 442
        68 W-30
        69 H/O
        70 W-30

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 17:27:05 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds Engine Article...

At 05:08 PM 5/21/96 -0300, you wrote:

>Posted this to the group in case anyone else is interested out there.  I
>believe the article that Scott is talking about is from the March 1992 and
>May 1992 'Musclecars' magazine.  I do not have a copy of either of these,
>sorry. 'Musclecars' was recently bought by 'Musclecar Review' (arghhh)  so i
>don't know if you will be able to get back issues.
>

I will check the county library here...they have an extensive back issue
section of many magazines.  Not sure if they subscribe(d) to Musclecars,
though; I'll find out!
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

 "I was put on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things;
    right now I'm so far behind, I'll never die"  --Calvin

------------------------------

From: Fernando Proietto <proietto@dow.on.doe.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 02:39:18 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds Engine Article...

Jeff Hunter wrote:

> Posted this to the group in case anyone else is interested out there.  I
> believe the article that Scott is talking about is from the March 1992 and
> May 1992 'Musclecars' magazine.  I do not have a copy of either of these,
> sorry. 'Musclecars' was recently bought by 'Musclecar Review' (arghhh)  so i
> don't know if you will be able to get back issues.
> 
> Thanks
> Jeff Hunter
> jchunter@xcelco.on.ca

I may have these issues. I will check. Maybe even scan in if I find them and submit them to the olds 
page.


Regards
Fernando Proietto

------------------------------

From: "Tom Waldron" <tomw@harborside.teleres.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 01:00:00 -0300
Subject: Check engine light

 I have an '84 Hurst Olds with a 307 and about 105k miles. The check   
 engine light comes on intermittently, though it stays on until I shut   
off  the engine. The car runs great, fluid levels are ok. Any ideas?  

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 17:43:23 -0300
Subject: RE: time to dump?

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB4734.A17213A0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Actually, my linkage problem is a little different. It only happens when =
I have to floor it to get into/out of traffic. The pedal is on the floor =
and not coming up. I have to lay on the brakes, pull over, and shut the =
car off, go under the hood and release the linkage from its open =
position. That is why I think it is a busted motor mount... When the =
engine torques up that fast and lifts, I think the elbow of the linkage =
gets caught on the upside of a small deppression on top of the manifold. =
The block pushes up hard on that elbow driving it back towards the fire =
wall so hard it sticks open. I have greased it up, but I am still going =
to get it checked. I also pulled out a pant load of acorns, which I =
thought was the original problem, but it happened again after I cleaned =
them all out.

- ----------
From: 	Greg Beaulieu[SMTP:ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca]
Sent: 	Tuesday, May 21, 1996 4:29 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Re: time to dump?


> >Linkage sticks open every once in a while, even though I keep it well =
lubed,
> >causing the accelorator to stick to the floor. I need to check for a =
busted
> >motor mount.

I just remembered a similar problem on my dad's '78 LeMans. When you set
the choke by pushing the pedal to the floor it wouldn't release all the
way. Car would start and the 305 would immediately go to what sounded =
like
about 4000 RPM. A little scary. It did this from the day it was brand =
new,
but never predictably, maybe once in 100 starts, and thankfully, never
when the engine was already running. When you shut it off and reset the
choke with the pedal, it would be fine. Never did it when you took it to
the dealer either. Sounded like just a sticky choke/fast idle mechanism
but they never did succeed in fixing it 100%.=20

Maybe a design problem with these?

I haven't thought about that car in years until today. Think it was the=20
first one off the assembly line in '77 for the new '78 model year.=20
Nothing fit. Window cranks stood out from the door panel about 1/2" or=20
more (must have used '77 shafts), interior trim pieces fit was=20
theoretical at best, rear door vent window frames rusted out within 2=20
years, as did the roof of the wagon where the roof rack was attached.=20
Vents didn't work, driver's door glass fell into the door about 5 times, =

rear tailgate rattled and leaked like a sieve. Car lasted him about 3=20
years before it started burning oil and he ditched it. About 50,000 =
miles=20
on it at the time.

The thing I remember most about it was the card in the glove box from =
the=20
GM Assembly Division that built it with the heading "Baltimore Sends =
It's=20
Best"... hate to see their worst. A shame, because when it was right it=20
was a nice car.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, =
Canada






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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB4734.A17213A0--

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 20:36:39 -0300
Subject: Re: The heat is on

isagil wrote:
> 
> HI!
> 
> Anybody out there ever tried to run an engine without a thermostat? 

Done it many times.  The thermostat cuts off the radiator to allow the 
engine to warm up.  No thermostat, engine warms up slower.  

That's all, Folks

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 16:43:44 -0300
Subject: Re: Check engine light 

> I have an '84 Hurst Olds with a 307 and about 105k miles. The check   
> engine light comes on intermittently, though it stays on until I shut   
>off  the engine. The car runs great, fluid levels are ok. Any ideas?  

Check the error codes and see what you have. Got your official GM ECM
Diagnostic Mode Paper Clip handy?

If it seems to run okay otherwise, maybe it's the good ol' crispy toasted
temperature sensor connector. But get the error codes out first. Send me
email if you need details...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 17:47:53 -0300
Subject: RE: Time to Dump?

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB4735.425AB420
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

So, are you saying that I don't have to replace the whole assembly, just =
the telescoping portion? My motor was fine when I unplugged it 4 years =
ago. If this is true, then I should reconnect it and see if it still =
runs. I got a replacement power antenna a few years ago from =
Crutchfield, 60.00 vs 100.00 at the dealer, but the motor was twice the =
size and I had no idea how it was going to fit back in there without =
disassembling the front fender.

- ----------
From: 	Andrew C. Green[SMTP:acg@frame.com]
Sent: 	Tuesday, May 21, 1996 3:08 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Re: Time to Dump?

>Is the motor dead or is the antenna part busted?  New antennas are=20
>rather economical and easy to install.

IMHO, it sounds like antenna repairs on this car would be like =
rearranging
the deckchairs on the Titanic. Despite the power antenna in the fender,
does the car still come with one embedded in the windshield? Maybe that
can be reconnected so she can at least have some tunes cheaply.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473





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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB4735.425AB420--

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 20:41:25 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Q's

JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com wrote:

>           Uhhh... I always thought generators were significantly
>           longer than alternators, about the size and shape of an old
>           axial (A4) style air conditioning compressor, while the
>           alternator is shaped more like the newer radial (R6) A/C
>           units.  Also, aren't generators typically painted steel,
>           while alternators are bare aluminum?

Yes and No.  Alternators tend to be squatter than generators but I'd be 
careful about calling it one or the other based just on shape or finish. 

The 66 Toro and Mike

- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 16:49:11 -0300
Subject: RE: time to dump? 

>Actually, my linkage problem is a little different. It only happens when I 
>have to floor it to get into/out of traffic. The pedal is on the floor and 
>not coming up. I have to lay on the brakes, pull over, and shut the car off,

Hey, at least now we know why the rotors keep warping.  ;-)

>go under the hood and release the linkage from its open position. That is 
>why I think it is a busted motor mount... When the engine torques up that 
>fast and lifts, I think the elbow of the linkage gets caught on the upside 
>of a small deppression on top of the manifold. The block pushes up hard on 
>that elbow driving it back towards the fire wall so hard it sticks open. 

I'm having trouble picturing this, but do you have enough slack that maybe
you can reroute the cable a little bit?

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 17:51:44 -0300
Subject: RE: Check engine light

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB4735.CBD20C80
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My experience has been that the car is running great because the =
computer is compensating for the problem. Need to dump the codes, could =
be just a sensor.

- ----------
From: 	Tom Waldron[SMTP:tomw@harborside.teleres.com]
Sent: 	Tuesday, May 21, 1996 12:00 AM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Check engine light

 I have an '84 Hurst Olds with a 307 and about 105k miles. The check  =20
 engine light comes on intermittently, though it stays on until I shut   =

off  the engine. The car runs great, fluid levels are ok. Any ideas? =20




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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB4735.CBD20C80--

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 17:50:23 -0300
Subject: Rear Bumper

My rear bumper on my 86 cutlass supreme coupe has some small surface rust. Is it less expensive to re-chrome or just replace it?

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 16:59:31 -0300
Subject: Re: Rear Bumper 

>My rear bumper on my 86 cutlass supreme coupe has some small surface rust. 
>Is it less expensive to re-chrome or just replace it?

If the rust is where I think it is (outboard of those two little chrome
bumperettes), it may be coming through from the inside and there is
nothing to re-chrome. Classic Cutlass rust area, and you'll need to
replace the chrome lower/outer skin. GM quoted me $330 for new ones
back when mine started to go.

If it really is just surface rust, try polishing with white rubbing compound
and following up with paste wax; that might take care of it.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 17:04:21 -0300
Subject: RE: Time to Dump? 

>So, are you saying that I don't have to replace the whole assembly, just
>the telescoping portion? My motor was fine when I unplugged it 4 years ago.

Uh, I don't recall that you ever quite told us what the problem was, then.
I assumed that the motor was dead; now you're saying it was fine when you
unplugged it...? If it's a broken mast, the mast assembly is (usually)
replaceable but I'll let someone else who's actually done this model tell
you to do go about it.

Can you see the double-wire antenna running up the center of your windshield?
If it's there, maybe the coax pigtail lead from it is accessible behind the
dash and you can use that one instead of the fender mount.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: MIKE COCCAGNA <mikec@pop.kis.net>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 19:30:01 -0300
Subject: RE: Time to Dump?

MC>Is the motor dead or is the antenna part busted?  New antennas are
MC>rather economical and easy to install.

> So, are you saying that I don't have to replace the whole assembly,
> just the telescoping portion? My motor was fine when I unplugged it
> 4 years ago. If this is true, then I should reconnect it and see if
> it still runs. I got a replacement power antenna a few years ago
> from Crutchfield, 60.00 vs 100.00 at the dealer, but the motor was
> twice the size and I had no idea how it was going to fit back in
> there without disassembling the front fender.
 
Yup!  The telescoping portion is a metal rod with a plastic cable 
that wraps around a gear to move up-down.  I bought mine from a 
Pontiac dealer in the mid-west ( Lou Fusz Mitsubuishi is at 
800-528-2525 (Ellisville MO) - you can get the ph. # of the Pontiac 
dealer from them) that sells GM parts at wholesale if 
you saw their ad in a magazine.  There are usually 3 or 4 in each 
months Car and Driver.  The shaft was real inexpensive, something 
like 30 bucks or so and came with instructions and the funny looking 
tool for the top bolt that keeps it at the top of the fender.  First, 
I removed the funny clip and pulled out the current antenna.  Then, I 
removed the existing motor from the wheel well, opened it up as it 
hung from the cabling, and took out the broken part of the cable from 
the assemble, replaced the cover and put the motor in the fender and  
fed in the new cable per the instructions.  I then had a helper 
(wife) turn on the radio as I fed in the cable for the motor to grab. 
The antenna now moves up-down with only an occasional time when 
it leaves about 2" up, but I can live with that.

> IMHO, it sounds like antenna repairs on this car would be like
> rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. 

Well, how much do you enjoy listening to the engine purr on a really 
long drive?  Tunes are important to relax your trip.  Besides, the 
radio is necessary to listen for traffic reports helping reduce the 
brake rotor warpage!

> Despite the power antenna in the fender, does the car still come with 
> one embedded in the windshield? Maybe that can be reconnected so 
> she can at least have some tunes cheaply.

I haven't seen one of these since I drove a '77 Vista Cruiser.  Did 
they even exist on cars in the 80's?

Mike
'91 W-40 Quad442

------------------------------

From: <clint@boto.netherworld.org>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 18:36:37 -0300
Subject: RE: Time to Dump?

On Tue, 21 May 1996, MIKE COCCAGNA wrote:

> I haven't seen one of these since I drove a '77 Vista Cruiser.  Did
> they even exist on cars in the 80's?

My '81 Cutlass has the antenna in the windshield.  8^)

CLint
                      _________
Rocket Boy!         _|_ _\\____|_   '81 Cutlass Supreme, Silver, T-Tops
Clint Thompson       |___//____|    Mods: L69/700R4, GU5, Dynomax cat, 16x8 IROC rims, etc...
clint@boto.netherworld.org          Future: LT1, Forced air, Torque Tech, Herb Adams, etc...

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 17:35:43 -0300
Subject: RE: Time to Dump? 

>> IMHO, it sounds like antenna repairs on this car would be like
>> rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. 
>
>Well, how much do you enjoy listening to the engine purr on a really 
>long drive?  Tunes are important to relax your trip.  Besides, the 
>radio is necessary to listen for traffic reports helping reduce the 
>brake rotor warpage!

No, no, I agree, it's just that as we crouch down to examine the latest
set of warped rotors and duck as another intake manifold gasket goes
rocketing over our heads and lands on a pile of discarded rusted-out
doors from this car, etc., I kind of figured that the antenna was
somewhat further down on the list of Things to Fix.  :-)

>> Despite the power antenna in the fender, does the car still come with 
>> one embedded in the windshield? Maybe that can be reconnected so 
>> she can at least have some tunes cheaply.
>
>I haven't seen one of these since I drove a '77 Vista Cruiser.  Did 
>they even exist on cars in the 80's?

Sure did. My '82 Cutlass Supreme had one... Not the greatest reception,
but certainly vandal-proof, which I think was supposed to be one of the
main advantages and definitely useful around Chicago. I even broadcast
CB radio through it, although not over a long distance. And in fact you
could improve the reception by tweaking the antenna trimmer adjustment
on the stereo, although with a fender-mount antenna you usually don't 
have to go to that much trouble.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 19:07:24 -0300
Subject: Re: time to dump? 

In a message dated 96-05-21 16:59:17 EDT, you write:

> The pedal is on the floor and 
>>not coming up. I have to lay on the brakes, pull over, and shut the car
off,
>
>

Just for the heck of it, try a stronger (or better yet), double spring the
throttle to the manifold like in the old days! You may have to press harder
on the foot feed, but at least it will snap back! Also check the pivot on the
accellerator on the floorboard. It may be binding there too!

Greg K

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 20:16:03 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Check engine light 

> I have an '84 Hurst Olds with a 307 and about 105k miles. The check   
> engine light comes on intermittently, though it stays on until I shut
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>off  the engine.....
          
Check the error codes and see what you have..... But get the error codes out 
first.
        
        Back when I used to own a computer-equiped car (85 Calais 500 
        Pace Car replica), I recall that the computer would only store 
        error codes for a hard failure, not an intermittent.  In fact, 
        doesn't the "Check Engine" light stay on all the time if there 
        is a code stored?
        
        I went through a lot of pain with the 85 (Iron Duke 4 cyl with 
        TBI) due to an intermittent problem with the electronics.  
        During periods of high air temperature (>95 deg F) and high 
        engine temperature (>200 F) the car would sputter, check engine 
        light would come on, and then die completely (of course, never 
        when I had an opportunity to actually troubleshoot it).  Codes 
        were typically not stored and light was not permanently 
        illuminated.  Only a cooldown (either by waiting or application 
        of a garden hose) would cause it to restart.  I finally fixed 
        the problem by selling the car, but I became intimately familiar 
        with trouble codes....
        
        I replaced the car with an 85 Audi 5000 (hey, I wanted a car 
        that would ACCELERATE... intentionally or not...) and promptly 
        did the power antenna mast replacement thing.  Fortunately that 
        one was in the trunk, but I was able to purchase just the mast.  
        Neat thing about the Audi was that all the replacement parts 
        were priced like they were made out of solid gold....
        
        Thanks to that experience, and my ex-wife's lawyer, I'm now back 
        to only pre-computer Oldsmobiles (and the 85 Chevy crewcab 
        dually 4x4 - or is that 6x6 - parts chaser and tow vehicle).  
        BTW, the 85 also has the antenna in the windshield, with another 
        one (non-power) mounted on the fender.  Go figure.
        
        Joe Padavano
        jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
        
        66 442
        68 W-30
        69 H/O
        70 W-30

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 18:42:32 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Check engine light 

>        Back when I used to own a computer-equiped car (85 Calais 500 
>        Pace Car replica), I recall that the computer would only store 
>        error codes for a hard failure, not an intermittent.

No, it depends on the code involved. The temperature sensor circuit problem
that pops up a lot with older cars is an intermittent fault that stores,
for example, although I think a certain number of minutes have to elapse
before it does so. The No Tach Reference Signal, Code 12, on the other hand,
never stores in memory at all (since it "occurs" every time you start the
car, after you turn on the ignition but before you crank the engine).

>  In fact, 
>        doesn't the "Check Engine" light stay on all the time if there 
>        is a code stored?

Nope. If it did, the dealer would probably be inundated with freaked-out
drivers every day of the week.

>        I went through a lot of pain with the 85 (Iron Duke 4 cyl with 
>        TBI) due to an intermittent problem with the electronics.  
>        During periods of high air temperature (>95 deg F) and high 
>        engine temperature (>200 F) the car would sputter, check engine 
>        light would come on, and then die completely (of course, never 
>        when I had an opportunity to actually troubleshoot it).

Mmm-hm. This is why you should carry a paper clip with you! But I dunno
if I would blame the electronics first -- could be anything. Vapor lock?

>        I replaced the car with an 85 Audi 5000 (hey, I wanted a car 
>        that would ACCELERATE... intentionally or not...)

*chuckle*  *snort*  :-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: JK McCall <jkmccall@clic.net>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 19:44:31 -0300
Subject: Re: Time to Dump?

clint@boto.netherworld.org wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 21 May 1996, MIKE COCCAGNA wrote:
> 
> > I haven't seen one of these since I drove a '77 Vista Cruiser.  Did
> > they even exist on cars in the 80's?
> 
> My '81 Cutlass has the antenna in the windshield.  8^)

My 82 Delta 88 also, even my old Ch*v truck 80 has one...

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 13:08:12 -0300
Subject: Re: time to dump? 

     I deleted the previous messages in this thread, but people were 
     talking about the timing chain and gears on the 307 motor that should 
     be replaced at 70k or so.
     
     I got a bit concerned, since I'm at about 75k on my '84 H/O, and 
     called the dealer (they have really good mechanics with lots of 
     experience, but they charge and arm and a leg since they're now a 
     Cadillac dealer too).  He said they recommend replacement at about 
     120k miles or more depending upon how well the car is maintained 
     (frequent oil changes, etc).  He knew exactly what I was referring to, 
     and mentioned the fiber cam gear wearing out or the chain stretching.
     
     Then again, my '79 260 went TU because the oil pump screen was plugged 
     by shavings from this cam gear.  This was at either 80k or 180k miles, 
     I never did determine for sure how many miles were on that car.  For 
     every clue I found pointing to 180k, I'd find two more pointing to 
     80k.
     
     P.S.  You *did* know what answer you'd get when you asked a bunch of 
     Olds fans if you should dump your Olds, right?  :-)
     
     Tom L.

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 14:16:34 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Q's

David Paulison wrote:
> 
> At 03:57 PM 5/21/96 -0300, you wrote:
> 
> >
> >          Uhhh... I always thought generators were significantly
> >          longer than alternators, about the size and shape of an old
> >          axial (A4) style air conditioning compressor, while the
> >          alternator is shaped more like the newer radial (R6) A/C
> >          units.  Also, aren't generators typically painted steel,
> >          while alternators are bare aluminum?
> >
> 
> That was my understanding, also.  I always thought generators were longer;
> at least every one I have seen was.  Never seen a steel alternator or an
> aluminum generator, either.
> 
> Just my 2 pennies.
> --
> Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
> dpauliso@metrolink.net
> 
>  "I was put on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things;
>     right now I'm so far behind, I'll never die"  --Calvin

The first alternators were put all over the MOPAR's in 1962 and are 
steel cased.  I have a rusty one to prove it.  When so many said that 
the alternators & generators were alike, I was surprised but held my 
tongue as the obvious to me was that generators typically looked like 
large beer cans and the alternators had a bagel look.  I haven't seen 
everything though. 

Bill Culp

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 14:35:02 -0300
Subject: Re: The heat is on

Daniel Gulino wrote:
> 
> At 06:32 PM 5/21/96 -0300, you wrote:
> >HI!
> >
> >Anybody out there ever tried to run an engine without a thermostat? I
> >can't find a 160 F thermostat for my car, so I thought I could just let
> >the coolant go throught the radiator all the time.
> 
> Your engine will be very slow to warm up, which would be much more
> noticeable in the winter when you want heat for warmth, defrosters,
> and so forth.  But the engine will also be less efficient.  The hotter
> the engine can run (up to a point, of course), the more efficient
> it is.
> 
> Another way to think about this is, if a car could run fine without
> a thermostat, why would manufacturers bother to put them in?
> 
> ************************************************
> Daniel A. Gulino
> Associate Professor and Graduate Chairman
> Department of Chemical Engineering
> Ohio University
> Athens, Ohio  45701-2979
> (614) 593-1495
> (614) 593-0873 (fax)
> gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu
> http://www.ent.ohiou.edu/che/faculty/gulino.html

> ************************************************

I'll second that.  160's can be bought around here, but we don't require 
heaters most of the time.  180's are standard on pre emissions cars (pre 
1975 or so) and give better gas mileage, better emissions, faster heat 
up for defroster & heater action, better overall performance, and good 
heat control.  195's are used on catalytic converter cars to help in the 
HC burning.  High flow thermostats sound like a nice idea.  Get the 
brass ones instead of the stamped steel ones.  The cost is about twice 
$5 instead of $2.50) and you get a longer lasting, more dependable part. 
 Who likes to change these anyway?

Bill Culp

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 14:07:34 -0300
Subject: Re[3]: Check engine light 

     No, the computer on the '84 H/O will store all error codes from the 
     previous x on/off cycles (x is a rather large number, something like 
     50, I can't remember for sure).  The engine light won't stay on all 
     the time, I had a lean condition once that would come and go when a 
     shabby place "repaired" the carb.  The light wasn't on all the time.
     
     Are the dumping error codes procedures in the FAQ?  How about the 
     error codes themselves?  If not, they should be, I'd be happy to type 
     something up to put in there.
     
     Tom L.

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re[2]: Check engine light
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    5/21/96 4:07 PM

        Back when I used to own a computer-equiped car (85 Calais 500 
        Pace Car replica), I recall that the computer would only store 
        error codes for a hard failure, not an intermittent.  In fact, 
        doesn't the "Check Engine" light stay on all the time if there 
        is a code stored?

------------------------------

From: Mike Hall <mikehal1@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 22:54:27 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds Engine Article...

>Some while back, while attending a local Olds meeting, one of the members
>brought-in a xeroxed 10+ page article on Oldsmobile engines.  I was
>broken-down into 2 primary parts; Small Block, & Big block.  It covered in
>great detail how best to build your engine, and where to get the necessary
>parts (ie; Mondello, Dave Smith, Batten etc.).
>
>To make a short story long, does ANYBODY know what publication & month this
>article came from?!  Olds doesn't get this kind of print space (outside JWO)
>more than once every generation or so & I'd like to make it available
>electronically via Bryce's Site if anyone can point me in the right 
>direction...


Sounds like the book "Oldsmobile Performance" by Bob Gerometta. I have 
that one. I have tried to get in touch with the writers with no luck 
whatsoever...

Bryceman, I can send a copy to you if you want it for the above 
suggestion.

Scott, send me some e-mail if you want your personal copy. You guys will 
need to send some change to me to cover postage....


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Michael R. Hall                            Ortonville, Michigan
E-Mail: mikehal1@ix.netcom.com
Owner: 1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass S, 380 horses of pure Mondello fun...
Owner: 1991 Oldsmobile Eighty-Eight Royale Broughm, the classy one...
Owner: 1994 GMC Sonoma Club Coupe SLS Pickup.
         Brought to you by a Apple Power Macintosh 7100/80
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 22:27:28 -0300
Subject: Re: The heat is on 

In a message dated 96-05-21 14:36:31 EDT, you write:

>Anybody out there ever tried to run an engine without a thermostat? I 

Ran my '72 C/S convert w/o a 'stat on winter a couple of years ago.  Damn
thing STILL threw heat!  Problem I had was that the engine was getting warm,
but not warm enough to switch the air cleaner from the pre-heat stage to full
air flow from the snorkel.  ONCE, I floored it and got got a vacuum sweeper
noise like you never heard before.  And NO power.  Stopped car immediately.
 Decided to probe the snorkel (don't know why) and discovered that the flap
was closed.  Replaced the 'stat the next day.

Also, read somewhere after that that it's not good for the engine coolant to
run at a low temp like that.  Something about not letting the chemicals react
properly or something?  Just know it sounded like something you shouldn't do.
 

I don't recommend it.

Paul

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 22:27:22 -0300
Subject: Re: Time to Dump? 

In a message dated 96-05-21 08:53:56 EDT, you write:

> I was actually sniffing around the Mark VIII.

Well, I hate to say this, but you forced me to.  These (stinkin') Lincolns
are pretty cool lookin'.  If you've got the means to afford one, I say go for
it.  But why not an Aurora (less expensive, baby Northstar, comparable
equipment).  And why the aversion to FWD.  I would think up there in NH you
would require FWD.  I'm from PA and I wouldn't be caught deat w/o it,
especially after this past winter.

Paul

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 22:27:30 -0300
Subject: Re: Time to Dump? 

In a message dated 96-05-21 17:16:28 EDT, you write:

>Can you see the double-wire antenna running up the center of your
windshield?
>If it's there, maybe the coax pigtail lead from it is accessible behind the
>dash and you can use that one instead of the fender mount.

Never seen a windshield antenna in a car with a fender antenna.  Don't think
GM would waste money like that.  Now, I know some of their other theories
don't make sense, but I don't think they're that redundant.

Power antenna's going South is a pretty common problem.  Motor would run
after you shut the car off, but the antenna would still be up.  Think it has
to do with the nylon cord becoming un-attached from the motor.  Motor keeps
running because it's waiting to reel in all the cord, of which there is none.
 You used to be able to disconnect under the hood, like our friend has done.
 Newer models (both our '86 Delta & '88 Ciera) have the connection under the
dash, behind the glove box.  Just what you need when the antenna's running a
mile a minute and the dealer on the other end of the phone is telling you to
disconnect it before it catches fire!  You only choice (temporary) is to pull
the fuse.  (If your like me Dad, you pull many others before you get the
right one, then have to figure what goes where).  With the proper fuse pulled
here's what you get: NO courtesy lites (real fun in a dark parking lot),
radio always resets to default AM station when ignition is turned off, clock
always resets to 12:00, too.  Permanent repair requires calling your kid and
asking him to come and "disconnect that wire for your Mom."  Or you could
just do like the GM dealers do and cut the wires up under the fender.

I used to unplug the antenna on my '85 Delta during the winter to save on
wear and tear.  That antenna still worked at 135000 miles.  Don't have to
worry about it anymore, my '96 Monte Carlo doesn't have a power antenna, it's
not an available option.

Paul

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 23:31:05 -0300
Subject: Timing chain (was Re: time to dump?)

At 01:08 PM 5/21/96 -0300, you wrote:
  He knew exactly what I was referring to, 
>     and mentioned the fiber cam gear wearing out or the chain stretching.
>     
>     Then again, my '79 260 went TU because the oil pump screen was plugged 
>     by shavings from this cam gear.  This was at either 80k or 180k miles, 
>     I never did determine for sure how many miles were on that car.  


Just a few thoughts, based on my experiences--


Pulled the engine out of my Cutlass last Thanksgiving to do freeze
plugs/motor mounts/timing chain/oil pump/bearings, etc.  I'm positive the
pan has never been off this engine before; I don't think the engine was ever
out of the car before that.  It's the original 350, and I have all the
maintenance records from 1971 (when my father in law bought the car) 'til
now.  The oil pump pickup was packed full of composite (fiber?) teeth from
what I'm assuming was the original timing gear teeth; I don't know if they
used those kind of gears back then.  Anyway, it had a gear like that on it
at one time.  The car was taken in 1983 to have the timing chain and gears
replaced ("seems to be runnin' kinda funny..."); must be because the teeth
on the original gears broke apart.  The chain I replaced on Thanksgiving had
(guessing here) about 87,500 miles on it, based on about 7300 miles/year
(198,000 miles divided by 27 years).  The chain was *really* sloppy. Before
I pulled the gears off the crank and cam, it had about 3/8" deflection.  New
one was good-n-tight.  That's about one chain every 85,000 to 90,000 miles,
probably farther than I'll let it go next time.  I plan on putting no more
than 70,000 or 75,000 miles on the current one before it's replaced.
They're not that expensive, and with the number of miles put on the car now,
it'll be a while, anyway!  
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

 "I was put on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things;
    right now I'm so far behind, I'll never die"  --Calvin

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 02:31:58 -0300
Subject: Re: Time to Dump? 

In a message dated 96-05-21 08:41:34 EDT, you write:

>Too late on the timing chain, I have 117,000 miles, am I pushing the
>envelope?

Well, the nylon teeth on the top gear, on which the chain rides, are
undoubtedly gone by now. Underneath, them, though, are steel teeth, which are
much shorter, but will do the job for a while. The timing will jump around,
the chain will bounce and resonate, but you won't notice anyway, until it
jumps a tooth and you have trouble starting or running the car. That could
happen tomorrow, or like me, you can go 220,000 miles before you spin a
bearing (and then you mightaswell replace it anyway, along with the cam, and
pistons, and...)

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 02:32:03 -0300
Subject: Re: What does 'corporate' mean? 

In a message dated 96-05-20 01:15:43 EDT, you write:

>   The 8.5" 10-bolt lives from '72 on to current.   Used in everything 
>from F-bodies to light duty trucks.   I *WISH* I could find a 8.5" unit - 
>I've *NEVER* seen one that fits 68-72... only found 8.2" Chevies, and the 
>usual Buick/Olds rears.  

There was one in my '72 Vista Cruiser (had the big wagon brakes, to boot). It
will be replacing the 12-bolt O-type axle in my '70, which I understand is
also an 8.5" ring-gear. You just can't find gears for that O-type rear, so
out it goes.

------------------------------

From: isagil <isagil@CAM.ORG>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 03:20:52 -0300
Subject: The heat thing

Ok,

Since GM doesn't offer 160 F for Cadillacs (and yes, they do for the 
small-block Ch*vys), I'll just butcher my 195 F and use the remainder as 
a restrictor in the thermostat housing (Who suggested that? Neat trick!). 
I'll see what it does. I prefer to let the old engine run too cool, and 
step up to 180 F if there are too many problems. Won't run the car this 
winter. I don't have any defroster or any heater on that car (it's not an 
Olds), and, quite frankly, the only thing that matters is that I don't 
want to burn the engine.

Thanx for your help

Gilles <isagil@cam.org>

------------------------------

From: John D Bartusek <bart@cmf.nrl.navy.mil> 
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:24:19 -0300
Subject: Lotsa Rocket 350 Questions

Hello,

I just discovered this Olds mailing list so I thought I'd introduce my
cars which need some help!  I have 2 Cutlasses that I'd like to keep
going a while longer and have some general questions:  

'71 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (350 V8 2barrel) Blue exterior paint-White top

	This car is great even though it's a total Brady-mobile!
	This one has 250K miles on it with the last engine rebuild at
	the 150K milestone (previous owner).  I see that compression
	is now low in cylinder #5 but everything still runs anyway.  
	I'm wondering how difficult it is to
	rebuild the heads because I believe that the #5 exhaust valve is bad. 

Q1:	Should I rebuild the heads or should I look for another engine
	from a donor car? (perhaps one with the 4barrel intake and carb and
	less miles) 

Q2;	To do the heads, do I just take them off and take them to
	a machine shop? Where do I get parts?  How much should this cost?

Q3:	If I'm going to this amount of work and expense, is there
	anything else I should rebuild at the same time?

Q4:	I generally like to do mostly all the work myself on
	these cars and am willing to buy tools and repairs books as needed.
	Any recomendations?

'69 Cutlass Holiday Coupe (350 V8 2 barrel)

	This one has 120K miles on it runs much stronger than  the
	convertible above.  Mechanically everything works well and it just
	needs some bodywork and paint.  I really like it in its rough
	form and don't really want to put a lot of $$ in this one.

Q1:	Is there any maintainance besides oil changes I  should be
	handling to keep the engine running for a long time.  Should
	the timing chain be replaced? 

Q2:	This car has non-power assisted 4-wheel drum brakes which work
	OK but not great. Actually they're kinda lame.  Is there any
	way to improve the brakes without spending a fortune?

Q3:	Should I consider upgrading to a 4 barrel intake and carb?
	Power is not bad currently with the 2 barrel but if the improvement
	was significant for not too much $$ and I could do it myself, I might
	be interested.

Q4:	Both cars have very tall gears in the rear end.  What is
	involved in changing the gears to something offering more
	performance.  I believe the '69 has 2.73 gears and I'm not sure about
	the '71 but it may be the same.  Also, is it easier/cheaper
	just to find a-whole-nuther rear axle with better gears?


Thanks in advance...

	John Bartusek
	Silver Spring, Maryland

------------------------------

From: Travis L Mcwaters <travism@utdallas.edu> 
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 04:44:09 -0300
Subject: Re: Lotsa Rocket 350 Questions 

> I see that compressionis now low in cylinder #5 but everything 
> still runs anyway. . . . I believe that the #5 exhaust valve is bad. 

You might want to check your cam.  Sometimes the lobes get rounded
down or just plain rounded off (!!!).  I've actually seem a cam that
came out of a ch**y 350 that was flat all the way around on more than a 
few lobes and most of the rest were somewhat to a lot rounded off.
I'm told it's a common problem with the 350, mostly due to poor oil
flow near the cam.  Having never (yet?) owned a 350 myself I'd not
run into it until a buddy of mine was having some similar problems that
turned out to be from that flat cam mentioned above.

- -- Travis

------------------------------

From: LMEIDT@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 09:02:41 -0300
Subject: 1970 Olds 442 

  
                  1970 OLDS 442 FOR SALE 
                  -----------------------------------------


   RED  , BLACK INTERIOR,  MATCHING #, HIS /HER SHIFTER,   NEW  PAINT,  

  NEW   TIRES,  NEW FRONT SUSPENSION,  NEW SPRINGS,  MOTOR JUST 
  REBUILT ,  NEW CARPET, NEW HEADLINER, NEW EXHAUST, NEW 
  BRAKES,  NEW VINYL TOP

  NEED TO SELL HAVE A 65 AND 71 442 TO FINISH, 

                      *****     6500 DOLLARS . ****  PHONE 609-854-6060 

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 09:30:52 -0300
Subject: WANTED": 66 convertible pcs

OK, y'all, the web page brought me this...

Boyd, you other Western or SW or desert folks... Got any this stuff?
I told him/her I have a hood, maybe grille & t'lites, but in MI condition...
- -Chris-


> From kirk@iserv.net Tue May 21 21:42:48 1996
> Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 21:51:57 +0000
> From: Curt Hausser <kirk@iserv.net>
> Subject: 1966 Olds 442 Convertible
>
> Parts needed as follows:
> hood
> shifter
> 4 sp. console
> tach dash
> ss1 wheels
> front carb for tri-power
> tail lights
> grille
>
> Please e-mail reply with prices and availability or send to:
> Sue Hausser
> 111 N. Lafayette St.
> Greenville, Mi 48838
>
> email: kirk@iserv.net   [I think... Chris]
> Ph# 616-754-3661
>


- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 09:54:13 -0300
Subject: RE: time to dump?

I am leaning towards getting a cell-phone and keeping the beast...

- ----------
From: 	Tom Lentz[SMTP:tlentz@teknon.com]
Sent: 	Tuesday, May 21, 1996 12:08 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Re: time to dump?


     I deleted the previous messages in this thread, but people were 
     talking about the timing chain and gears on the 307 motor that should 
     be replaced at 70k or so.
     
     I got a bit concerned, since I'm at about 75k on my '84 H/O, and 
     called the dealer (they have really good mechanics with lots of 
     experience, but they charge and arm and a leg since they're now a 
     Cadillac dealer too).  He said they recommend replacement at about 
     120k miles or more depending upon how well the car is maintained 
     (frequent oil changes, etc).  He knew exactly what I was referring to, 
     and mentioned the fiber cam gear wearing out or the chain stretching.
     
     Then again, my '79 260 went TU because the oil pump screen was plugged 
     by shavings from this cam gear.  This was at either 80k or 180k miles, 
     I never did determine for sure how many miles were on that car.  For 
     every clue I found pointing to 180k, I'd find two more pointing to 
     80k.
     
     P.S.  You *did* know what answer you'd get when you asked a bunch of 
     Olds fans if you should dump your Olds, right?  :-)
     
     Tom L.

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 12:53:58 -0300
Subject: Re: Time to Dump?

PHartlieb@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 96-05-21 08:53:56 EDT, you write:
> 
> > I was actually sniffing around the Mark VIII.
> 
> Well, I hate to say this, but you forced me to.  These (stinkin') 
> Lincolns are pretty cool lookin'.  

BTW, did you see that NASCAR is testing the Continentals?  Hmmm...

Where's Harry Gant?  We need an Olds back in there.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 10:05:28 -0300
Subject: RE: Time to Dump?

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I have only heard negative grumblings about the aurora, nothing =
specific, and in my opinion, my cutlass is great in the snow. I also =
think that you need to know how to drive in the snow whether you have =
fwd or not...I have passed a lot of fwd cars that have spun out onto the =
shoulder of route 93 because they didn't know how to drive...They ruin =
my commute home during every storm.

You have to be careful when thoughts of trading your rwd for a fwd begin =
to creep into your mind... first its a big muscle car with rwd, then you =
decide a straight 6 with front wheel drive is ok, then you fall right =
into the fwd 4cyl family VANS... and then you die. :)

- ----------
From: 	PHartlieb@aol.com[SMTP:PHartlieb@aol.com]
Sent: 	Tuesday, May 21, 1996 9:27 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Re: Time to Dump?

In a message dated 96-05-21 08:53:56 EDT, you write:

> I was actually sniffing around the Mark VIII.

Well, I hate to say this, but you forced me to.  These (stinkin') =
Lincolns
are pretty cool lookin'.  If you've got the means to afford one, I say =
go for
it.  But why not an Aurora (less expensive, baby Northstar, comparable
equipment).  And why the aversion to FWD.  I would think up there in NH =
you
would require FWD.  I'm from PA and I wouldn't be caught deat w/o it,
especially after this past winter.

Paul




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From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 10:07:44 -0300
Subject: 65 VC, Pat's detonation

I have 65 Vista pieces. As I recall, the wheels were normal 14" with small bolt
pattern [4.5"?]. The 68 98, however, had the peculiar mixture of 14" [yes,
fourteen inch] wheels with the big bolt pattern, 4-3/4" [?].

Pat Clark-
sounds to me like MAYBE you hooked the dist'r vacuum advance to a full-vacuum
source. Check the vacuum at idle to the dist'r- should be ZERO, or at least,
under 2" or so, not nuff to activate the advance.

The dist'r SHOULD get its vacuum from:
 The TVS in the water jacket, which gets its vacuum from either:
  1-normally, ported vacuum at the carb. Ported means no vacuum at idle, only
at midrange.
  2-If coolant gets "way hot", TVS switches to getting vacuum from a 'full
vacuum' source- a manifold tap. Sends this to the dist'r, which advances the
timing, to alleviate overheating.

- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 10:08:10 -0300
Subject: RE: Time to Dump?

I only have a power antenna, and as you may have already guessed, I =
don't have the original windshield anyway. I heard windshield antennas =
were poor performers, so I don't think I am missing much.

- ----------
From: 	PHartlieb@aol.com[SMTP:PHartlieb@aol.com]
Sent: 	Tuesday, May 21, 1996 9:27 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Re: Time to Dump?

In a message dated 96-05-21 17:16:28 EDT, you write:

>Can you see the double-wire antenna running up the center of your
windshield?
>If it's there, maybe the coax pigtail lead from it is accessible behind =
the
>dash and you can use that one instead of the fender mount.

Never seen a windshield antenna in a car with a fender antenna.  Don't =
think
GM would waste money like that.  Now, I know some of their other =
theories
don't make sense, but I don't think they're that redundant.

Power antenna's going South is a pretty common problem.  Motor would run
after you shut the car off, but the antenna would still be up.  Think it =
has
to do with the nylon cord becoming un-attached from the motor.  Motor =
keeps
running because it's waiting to reel in all the cord, of which there is =
none.
 You used to be able to disconnect under the hood, like our friend has =
done.
 Newer models (both our '86 Delta & '88 Ciera) have the connection under =
the
dash, behind the glove box.  Just what you need when the antenna's =
running a
mile a minute and the dealer on the other end of the phone is telling =
you to
disconnect it before it catches fire!  You only choice (temporary) is to =
pull
the fuse.  (If your like me Dad, you pull many others before you get the
right one, then have to figure what goes where).  With the proper fuse =
pulled
here's what you get: NO courtesy lites (real fun in a dark parking lot),
radio always resets to default AM station when ignition is turned off, =
clock
always resets to 12:00, too.  Permanent repair requires calling your kid =
and
asking him to come and "disconnect that wire for your Mom."  Or you =
could
just do like the GM dealers do and cut the wires up under the fender.

I used to unplug the antenna on my '85 Delta during the winter to save =
on
wear and tear.  That antenna still worked at 135000 miles.  Don't have =
to
worry about it anymore, my '96 Monte Carlo doesn't have a power antenna, =
it's
not an available option.

Paul

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 10:09:34 -0300
Subject: RE: Time to Dump?

I am getting it done next week, I know it is cheaper than having a permanent hole in the hood of my car.:) 200.00.

- ----------
From: 	Bob0Barry@aol.com[SMTP:Bob0Barry@aol.com]
Sent: 	Wednesday, May 22, 1996 1:31 AM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Re: Time to Dump?

In a message dated 96-05-21 08:41:34 EDT, you write:

>Too late on the timing chain, I have 117,000 miles, am I pushing the
>envelope?

Well, the nylon teeth on the top gear, on which the chain rides, are
undoubtedly gone by now. Underneath, them, though, are steel teeth, which are
much shorter, but will do the job for a while. The timing will jump around,
the chain will bounce and resonate, but you won't notice anyway, until it
jumps a tooth and you have trouble starting or running the car. That could
happen tomorrow, or like me, you can go 220,000 miles before you spin a
bearing (and then you mightaswell replace it anyway, along with the cam, and
pistons, and...)

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 05:07:51 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Olds Engine Article... 

     Any chance of you posting the ISBN number for that book?  Or Author or 
     Publisher?  I'd love to see if the bookstore can order me a copy, or 
     heck, maybe even find it in the library!

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Olds Engine Article...
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    5/21/96 6:37 PM
     
Sounds like the book "Oldsmobile Performance" by Bob Gerometta. I have 
that one. I have tried to get in touch with the writers with no luck 
whatsoever...

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 12:53:37 -0300
Subject: Re: The heat is on 

In a message dated 96-05-21 14:50:57 EDT, you write:

>Anybody out there ever tried to run an engine without a thermostat? I 
>>can't find a 160 F thermostat for my car, so I thought I could just let 
>>the coolant go throught the radiator all the time.
>
>Not exactly. The engine will run no hotter without a thermostat (well,
>not measurably so, anyway), but may run cooler than designed if the
>cooling system is in good shape otherwise. 

A cars cooling system is _designed_ to use a thermostat.  Without one the
coolant can go through the radiator so quickly that there is insufficient
time for it to transfer heat through the radiatior.  It might make the car
run hotter, not cooler.

If you are going to entirely remove the thermostat, use something to slow
down the flow.  Commonly I have heard of and seen plates with about a 3/4
inch hole.  This approximates the open thermostat.

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 12:53:44 -0300
Subject: Re: The heat is on 

In a message dated 96-05-21 15:02:58 EDT, you write:

>>I can't find a 160 F thermostat for my car, 
>
>The coolest thermostat I have ever found was 180 F.
>
>

You can still find 160 thermostats.  What might be a problem is that new cars
must use the thermostat tied to the emissions requirements.  The EPA might
take exception to you local repair shop "defeating" emission controls.  Big
fine = no buyers = no production of a part they can't sell.

Check if a thermostat for an older pre-emission or early emission will fit.
 Maybe you can find a 165 stat that way.  I have one in the '67 and it was
replaced only a few months ago.

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 13:17:58 -0300
Subject: misc.

> From: isagil <isagil@CAM.ORG>
>
> Anybody out there ever tried to run an engine without a thermostat? I
> can't find a 160 F thermostat for my car, so I thought I could just let
> the coolant go throught the radiator all the time. One thing that worries
> me is that those thermostats restrict coolant flow (compared with an
> empty thermostat housing...) to the radiator, so that the coolant stays
> longer in the radiator (?) and gets cooler. If I skip the thermostat,
> will the coolant run too fast and stay hot once it's out of the radiator?

Hmmmm. No trouble finding 160 T'stats here. If the engine is running too hot
with an operating t'stat in place, removing it is not going to help. It'll
probably not change things in fact. Problem must lie somewhere else if, as per
assumption, t'stat is operating correctly. Check it in a pot of boiling salt
water...
  Your lower radiator hose might be collapsing, getting sucked shut by the
water pump... hard to spot until the engine is revved... plain old clogged
radiator is possible... feel for the heat; where is it originating [engine,
hopefully], where is it going, etc. Fan clutch pooped out, not  moving air?
Shroud missing? -Chris-

> > Q3 - What is the difference between an Alternator and a Generator?
> > How can you visually tell the difference?

Generator: old, heavy, long, small diameter [like long starter motor], makes
DC, different generational characteristics as outlined by others, often need to
be 'polarized' upon installation, can be made into a motor.
- --
Alternator: More modern, makes ALTERNATING current [AC], lighter, short with
larger diameter... opposite of generator on all counts...
- -Chris-

> Not exactly. The engine will run no hotter without a thermostat (well,
> not measurably so, anyway), but may run cooler than designed if the
> cooling system is in good shape otherwise. This will impact on emissions
> and probably other stuff as well (e.g. temperature-activated vacuum
> switches for various things).

I saw a study once where the chart claimed that cylinder wear was like an order
of magnitude greater [i.e., 10x greater] at low temps. Engines really like to
operate at the correct temperature... -Chris-

> From: SG Hartfelder <stanh@compusmart.ab.ca>
>
> Q2 - Where did the the term 'HOT ROD' come from?

Came from way back... when the "old racers" [as in "old racers' tricks"] were
Young Racers... back when wheels had spokes, and IF you were lucky, metal
spokes at that... They noticed that after a race, the spokes on the wheels were
hot... slang term for spokes was 'rods'... thus, fast cars had "hot rods"...
Yeah, that's the ticket.... And not-so-able cars were referred to as just "warm
sticks"... Heh. That's my best guess. -Chris-

> >Old cover *almost* fits, not quite,
>
> Awwww, I was really hoping you'd be able to use your old cover.  I *HATE*
> looking at the Mickey Mouse cover on mine.  Oh, well, at least your problem
> seems to be fixed.  Congrats! Paul

Well, can't you remove the guts from the new regulator, place them in to the
old regulator.... cut-n-paste sorta thing? I can make 'em for y'all if
you want.  -Chris-

> > coming up over and over. Maybe some of the repair procedures are being done
> > a little hastily and key steps (e.g. torque settings on manifold bolts,
> > anti-corrosion surface prep on new body panels) aren't being done properly.

Yeah, like using sheetmetal gasket on the AL intake, wrong tork sequence on
installation, wrong gasket goo...
  Use composition intake gaskets. Use aviation [3H] gasket goo except for
silicone on the water passages, and tork to the correct 35-40 ft# in at least 3
stages and IN THE CORRECT PATTERN. All should be well then, unless the engine
is being subjected to repeated overheating which is creating this problem each
time. -Chris-

> >right places - defrost, vent, floor, etc.  The heater control valve has
> >been replaced, but the above condition will occur even with the vacuum
> >unhooked from the heater control valve.  Could this problem be similar
> >to the above one?   Bill Culp

Well, when the 68 98's heater control valve pooped out, they sold Angela a nice
new one- which was engineered bass-ackwards. I.e., when vacuum was applied, it
shut off [or vice-versa- whatever- it was backwards of the way it was supposed
to be...]. If your valve is also reverse-engineered, say, requires vacuum to
HALT the flow of hot stuff to the heater core, then the only time it would shut
off the hot stuff is when you turn ON the heater and the vac. line IS
connected. [scrambled brains, anyone?]
- -Chris-

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 12:19:29 -0300
Subject: Re: The heat is on 

>A cars cooling system is _designed_ to use a thermostat.  Without one the
>coolant can go through the radiator so quickly that there is insufficient
>time for it to transfer heat through the radiatior.  It might make the car
>run hotter, not cooler.

I don't mean to nitpick here, Bob, 'cause I think we're both on the same
side of this anyway, but wouldn't the restrictor plate installed in place
of a thermostat be for slowing the flow of coolant through the block, not
through the radiator? In other words, a fast flow through the block might
cause problems with lack of heat transfer, although the same fast flow
through the radiator might still dissipate enough heat there, what with
all the narrow passages in the radiator core.

Measuring coolant temperature exiting the radiator with and without the
thermostat installed might answer that question, I guess.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 14:04:01 -0300
Subject: Re: 65 VC, Pat's detonation 

In a message dated 96-05-22 09:11:54 EDT, you write:

>which advances the
>timing, to alleviate overheating.
>
>--
>Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
>wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

See, told ya retarding the spark causes more heat generation.  Got an expert
that agrees.  Not sure of the reason but it seems to me that igniting the
mixture ATDC does not allow the engine a full power stroke.  But the same
amount of heat is released.  Since the heat is not used to propel the car,
heat energy to mechanical energy, the excess heat is left in the engine which
can only get rid of it through conduction.  Yea, some of it probably goes out
the exhaust but not enough to offset the heat generated.

Any other explanations?

A fellow I was helping fix an old MoPar inline six once had the timing so
retarded that the exhaust manifolds actually turned cherry red.  That's a lot
of heat.  Obviously wasn't running worth spit either.  We were learning and
didn't know TDC from DOA.  And I'm still learning every day.  Once everything
was set correctly the motor ran cool and smooth.
Retarded spark generates excess heat.

Bob Handren
'67 W-30 Modified
'70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 14:04:02 -0300
Subject: Re: Time to Dump? 

In a message dated 96-05-22 09:11:54 EDT, you write:

>You have to be careful when thoughts of trading your rwd for a fwd begin to
>creep into your mind... first its a big muscle car with rwd, then you decide
>a straight 6 with front wheel drive is ok, then you fall right into the fwd
>4cyl family VANS... and then you die. :)

That's right.  Ask my brother.  Real shame.  What he accepts as an automotive
life is sad.  From a 442 convertible to an GT Fiero to a Plymouth Voyager.
 Yuk!

His older brother is much wiser.

Bob Handren
'67 W-30 Modified
'70 SX Convertible

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 14:03:58 -0300
Subject: Re: What does 'corporate' mean? 

In a message dated 96-05-22 03:07:44 EDT, you write:

>. You just can't find gears for that O-type rear, so
>out it goes.

It's my understanding that "O" type gears are available from one of the major
aftermarket suppliers.  Not sure but either Perfection American (aka Zoom I
believe) or one of the others makes 'em now.  With lots of 68-72 442's being
restored there is a market.

Bob Handren
'67 W-30 Modified
'70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 14:34:44 -0300
Subject: Re: 1970 Olds 442

At 09:02 AM 5/22/96 -0300, you wrote:
>  
>                  1970 OLDS 442 FOR SALE 
>                  -----------------------------------------
>
>
>   RED  , BLACK INTERIOR,  MATCHING #, HIS /HER SHIFTER,   NEW  PAINT,  
>
>  NEW   TIRES,  NEW FRONT SUSPENSION,  NEW SPRINGS,  MOTOR JUST 
>  REBUILT ,  NEW CARPET, NEW HEADLINER, NEW EXHAUST, NEW 
>  BRAKES,  NEW VINYL TOP
>
>  NEED TO SELL HAVE A 65 AND 71 442 TO FINISH, 
>
>                      *****     6500 DOLLARS . ****  PHONE 609-854-6060 
>
WHY ARE YOU YELLING?  What is a His/Her Shifter?  Anybody?
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

 "I was put on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things;
    right now I'm so far behind, I'll never die"  --Calvin

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 14:51:28 -0300
Subject: Re: The heat is on 

In a message dated 96-05-22 12:33:00 EDT, you write:

>I don't mean to nitpick here, Bob, 'cause I think we're both on the same
>side of this anyway, but wouldn't the restrictor plate installed in place
>of a thermostat be for slowing the flow of coolant through the block, not
>through the radiator? In other words, a fast flow through the block might
>cause problems with lack of heat transfer, although the same fast flow
>through the radiator might still dissipate enough heat there, what with
>all the narrow passages in the radiator core.
>
>Measuring coolant temperature exiting the radiator with and without the
>thermostat installed might answer that question, I guess.

Yes. A restrictor anywhere in the system should slow flow everywhere.  The
bypass hose always lets some coolant through so that should should be fairly
constant for the comparison.  If the coolant goes through the block too fast
it can't pick up the heat and too fast through the radiator can't get rid of
it either.  Heat just keeps building in the block and then the coolant.  And
vice versa. The outside air temp and humidity are obviously a factor as well.
 I think it's a safe bet that with no thermostat and 15 degrees F the car
won't warm up and at 105 degrees it will probably overheat.  If there is no
thermostat, measuring the coolant temperature exiting the radiator would only
answer the question for that set of conditions of water pump speed, air flow
over the radiator and air temp.

The purpose of the thermostat is to regulate the coolant temperature over a
large range of conditions.  Running without one could result in either over
or under optimum operating temps but my experience is the former is the usual
problem.  Note the fact that Moroso, et al offer restrictor plates of varying
diameters to cover different engines and conditions. A thermostat opens ans
closes as neede to regulate the coolant temp which is similar to changing
plate opening diameters for race engines.

Since I usually run fast engine speeds (high rear gear ratios) and have a
strong preference for warm/hot climates (born and raised in NY state, don't
miss the cold and snow at all),  the few times I tried removing the
thermostat the car boiled over more than it did with the thermostat.  Whether
on the road, drag strip or in traffic.  My experiences started when the '67
was new and GM's idea of HD cooling was a 3 core radiator.  A 4-core
radiator, a fan shroud with the largest fan that will fit and a thermostat
solved all problems forever.  The same approach has served me well for all
the cars I've owned and built.

Assuming no overriding problem like a clogged system, IMHO, the usual reason
cars run hot is because the necessity of a fan shroud and full size fan are
ignored.  I've seen dozens of modified cars with no shroud and a small
diameter flex fan. Instead of fixing that they keep getting bigger and bigger
radiators which still can't cool the motor because there is no airflow
through them unless the car is moving.  Of course, there is that crowd that
considers a "built" car puking it's coolant just a sign of a really "hot"
setup.  I'd rather keep mine the cooling system thanks.

So, yes, I agree we are saying at least similar things but from different
perspectives.

Bob Handren
'67 W-30 Modified
'70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

------------------------------

From: "Tom Waldron" <tomw@harborside.teleres.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 23:00:00 -0300
Subject: RE: 1970 Olds 442

 ----------
From:  David Paulison [SMTP:oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca]
Sent:  Wednesday, May 22, 1996 1:56 PM
To:  tomw; oldsmobile
Subject:  Re: 1970 Olds 442


At 01:56 PM 5/22/96, you wrote:
>
>      WHY ARE YOU YELLING?  What is a His/Her Shifter?  Anybody?
>
> Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
> dpauliso@metrolink.net
>
> "I was put on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things;
> right now I'm so far behind, I'll never die"  --Calvin

As far as I understand, a His/Her Shifter is a Hurst Dual Gate with a key   
lock
to keep the "Wife" from screwing up the transmission by keeping it in   
"automatic".
This was actually an advertised feature on the '69 Hurst Olds.

Tom Waldron tomw@harborside.teleres.com

84 Hurst Olds

------------------------------

From: pearson.11@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Chris Piersone)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 15:56:12 -0300
Subject: Re: Check engine light

>> I have an '84 Hurst Olds with a 307 and about 105k miles. The check   
>> engine light comes on intermittently, though it stays on until I shut   
>>off  the engine. The car runs great, fluid levels are ok. Any ideas?  
>


My 86 Cutlass's check engine light has been coming on intermittantly also.
Mine only when the engine is cold, and always when traveling over 45mph..
the idle was also fast.  The shop I took it to said it was running too rich.
Why?  Well it turns out that my choke tube is periodically filling up with
gunk and keeping air from passing through to warm up...whatever its supposed
to warm up :-)  They dont know why its doing it, but they told me to bring
it back whenever it happens, and they'll blow the gunk out.  Ive been back 3
times, I have to bring it in again because its happening again.  It sounds
like a pain, but I hope to permanently fix the problem when I get my engine
rebuilt.  Comments????
     BTW, its an Olds 307.


Chris Pearson      Pearson.11@osu.edu

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #182
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