
oldsmobile-digest          Friday, 19 April 1996       Volume 01 : Number 152


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: urbanch@magi.com (Chris Urban)
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 14:42:41 -0300
Subject: Re: ZA-12 Heat Riser Filling 

>So I've been told, my mistake.
>
>
>Chris,
>
>I think you are confusing the solid heat riser block-offs with the 
>ZA-12. I have used the block offs, I didn't think it was a big deal to 
>use but the ZA-12 is MELTED and then you port the leftover excess 
>material. A better way to do it and slightly more expensive...
>
>For what it's worth...
>
>
><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Michael R. Hall                            Ortonville, Michigan
>E-Mail: mikehal1@ix.netcom.com
>Owner: 1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass S, 380 horses of pure Mondello fun...
>Owner: 1991 Oldsmobile Eighty-Eight Royale Broughm, the classy one...
>Owner: 1994 GMC Sonoma Club Coupe SLS Pickup, soon to be "Bravadaized".
>         Brought to you by a Apple Power Macintosh 7100/80
><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: Doug Ahern <doug@cobra.cosmic.uga.edu>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 14:49:17 -0300
Subject: Re: hupmobile oiling problems, was (No Subject)

> >The reason that I ask is that my know-it-all dad who used to race 
> >hupmobiles back in the 50's says that too much oil presure on stock 
> >cranks will tend to blow the crank to one side, causing the main bearings 
> >to wear out early.  Is my dad full of @#$@ or does he know best?
> 
> Sorry to say, yes he is full of "@#$@" as you put it. The 
> counterweights on the crank provide much more force than that little 
> bit of oil pressure...

who the hell knows on a Hupmobile?   I seem to recall Hupmobile either
going out of business of being acquired by Graham in '39 or so.  its
entirely possible that high oil pressure caused oiling problems on 
the bottom end of this particular 1930's flathead technology, especially 
when pushed to it's limits on an oval track...

call bullshit on the old man when tells you modern v8s can't handle high
oil pressure, but, unless you know different, plead ignorance on the
hupmobile engine.....

------------------------------

From: "wesf@hpdmm12.boi.hp.com" <wesf@hpdmm12.boi.hp.com> 
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 16:03:54 -0300
Subject: Re: Loosening the Harmonic Balancer 

>I had removed the starter already, and was removing the flexplate 
>bolts, when it occurred to me that now would be a perfect time to 
>try that balancer bolt.  I put a 9/16"(?) socket  with a short 
>extension on the flywheel bolt, turned the balancer bolt gently 
>until the socket contacted the rear of the block, and then wailed 
>on it with a *long* 1/2" drive socket wrench. The bolt broke free 
>without too many pulled muscles on my part.

Also, if you don't want to risk having the socket come off and
mess up the housing, bolt head, or your nuckles, you can also take 
a short piece of chain, bolt one end of that to the flexplate or 
flywheel and secure the other end to something solid.  I've done
that before with good success.

Wes Fujii

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 16:17:56 -0300
Subject: Re: 12-bolt rear end

At 02:38 AM 4/18/96 -0300, you wrote:
>Do all the GM) 12-bolt differentials have a 8.875" ring gear?
>
>Just curious.
>
>
no
- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 16:29:15 -0300
Subject: Mid-engine Cutlass, etc.

> >I
> >remember the show car with the Toro 455 (403) under that back window. Has
> >that show car been crushed, or is it still around?

I just saw it. When I was going to visit that 69 H/O, I stopped for directions,
and this old guy owns it. It's kinda ragged out now, needs a cleaning, but
still driving... And for sale, about $10K he said... He has lots of
documentation with it, magazine articles, etc. --Chris--

> What are the advantages to filling in the exhaust crossovers?  Can it be
> done to small block heads, or just big blocks?
> Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme

The pulses from adjacent-firing cylinders interfere w/ each other if connected
thru the xst crossover- 4-3-6-5 are all connected by that passage. tiny
increase in overall power if blocked. Oh, and less carb heat, which makes quick
warmup a thing of the past, but, according to Mondello's catalog, allows the
carb to run "100% cooler"- I guess that'd be absloute zero, then, eh? :) [or,
was that the valley tray that claimed that feature? No memory!] -Chris-
  Yes, SB heads can be done too.

 it. The big thing is that if they (the machine shop decks the heads the MUST ta
ke the same amount off the vale stems or you will wipe out a set of lifters.
> This is do to the non-adjustable vavle train that the OLDS engines use.
> Jim Chermack (804)474-0869

Ehhhh... not necessarily! There is *some* slop^H^H^H^H clearance built into the
system, and what I generally see is that, if anything, the rockers & pedestals
are so worn that it's impossible to get enough or sometimes ANY lifter preload.
Besides, we're talking removing what, 0.040" of head here? Furthermore, any
material removed at the VALVE STEM will reflect only 1/1.6 as much at the
lifter plunger- so you'd have to remove [head cut] * 1.6 from the valve tip by
your method, & then we're into rocker-retainer hitting & poor geometry in
general.
  Best bet: after assembling heads to engine, CHECK each lifter preload
individually, look for 1/4 to 1.5 turns of the pedestal screw from first
zero-lash to tight pedestal. If less than 1/4 turn, replace worn
rocker/pedestal; if more, add shims under pedestal or use adjustable pushrods.
- -Chris-

> Only problem with this is that you can bend your flexplate just enough to
> throw your balance out, they all after all quite thin.

Yes, they are thin. But, they are connected in three points to a very stout
tork converter. Even if it were to bend a bit, that would not really affect
balancing much- the weight didn't change its radial position, right?  'Course
if the TC is not there anymore... If it's on the stand, I just stick a bar or
screwdriver thru a flexplate hole and butt it against the block & stand.
- -Chris W-

> pressure.  It didn't change a bit.  I installed it wrong the first time

Put the relief valve plunger in upside down, did we? :)

>      Cutlass w/ full gauges.  Matter of fact, the steering column actually
>      rotates when you shift gears, although nothing is attached to it.  I
>      had to laugh first time I noticed it do that.

That's so that when the ign/ steering colm is locked, the trans stays in Park,
thieves or pranksters can't easily put yer car in Neutral & push it away...

> What was the first 455 engine - Buick, Pontiac or Olds?

Olds started in 1968; are there others, too? :)  -Chris-

>      The danger of going with a high pressure/volume oil pump is oil
>      starvation.  You should have a larger (toro) oil pan and you should
>      install the oil restrictors if you do so.  If you don't, at sustained
>      high-rpm the engine can pump oil into the valve covers faster than it
>      drains back down (I hear olds engines have an abnormally small
>      drainback hole).  All your oil ends up in the top of the engine and
>      you suffer bottom-end failure.  I suppose you could also enlarge the
>      drainback hole, which seems like a better solution to me.

I concur. In fact, on my personal engine, I added drainback tubes from the
heads to the crankcase, at the rear of each head. 3/8" tubing. -Chris-

Wow, and only a brave few neglected to trim excess reply wordage today!
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 16:42:07 -0300
Subject: Q-jet

I'm considering replacing the intake and original Q-jet on my Cutlass.  What
is the best/recommended carb for a replacement?  Or should I just keep the
Q-jet and have it rebuilt?  I really don't have any problems with it, but I
will replace the intake.  While on the subject, how do you adjust the
mixture on a 4 bbl Q-jet?  I know where the mixture screws are (bottom of
front side of carb).  A friend told me to turn one in till the engine starts
running rough, turn it back out till it smooths out, then give another full
turn out, then do it to the other one, and repeat this procedure a couple of
times.  Is this correct?  

Thanks
  
- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 16:56:28 -0300
Subject: Re: Mid-engine Cutlass, etc.

At 04:29 PM 4/18/96 -0300, you wrote:

>
>The pulses from adjacent-firing cylinders interfere w/ each other if connected
>thru the xst crossover- 4-3-6-5 are all connected by that passage. tiny
>increase in overall power if blocked. Oh, and less carb heat, which makes quick
>warmup a thing of the past, but, according to Mondello's catalog, allows the
>carb to run "100% cooler"- I guess that'd be absloute zero, then, eh? :) [or,
>was that the valley tray that claimed that feature? No memory!] -Chris-
>  Yes, SB heads can be done too.
>


Valley tray?  Would that be the valley pan gasket (that's what the auto
parts store called it...)?  What are the pros/cons of using it over just two
separate intake gaskets?  Those valley pans sure are alot harder to put in
than separate gaskets!  I just replaced my intake gaskets with a valley pan,
which is what was in there.  I think I have a coolant leak on the front side
of the coolant crossover, between the manifold and the right side head, so I
have to pull it apart again and re-gasket.  Separate gaskets would be alot
easier to put in this time (both valley pan and separate gaskets are available).
- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: "Shawn M. Twomey" <stwom@ctp.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 17:23:01 -0300
Subject: Overdrive whine... 

>Just a note on late model Cutlass's with a whine...   I have an 86 442 that
>also has a whine in first gear.  It is my understanding that both the OD
>tranny's, the TH 200 4R and TH 700 R4, have a whine in first gear that is
>generated inside the tranny.  Tom Millard OLDSPWR@aol.com

I hear a loud whine in all gears, or even when the car is in park.  Damn
thing sounds like it's got a supercharger in it.  Anyone point to a probable
cause?

__________________________________________________________________________
Shawn M. Twomey     |  "No!  Try NOT!  Do, or do not.  There is no try."
stwom@ctp.com       |  -Yoda
__________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 18:42:08 -0300
Subject: Re: Q-jet 

          ... how do you adjust the mixture on a 4 bbl Q-jet? 
          
          Of course you realize that turning the mixture screws only 
          adjust idle mixture and that you need to change jets and 
          metering rods for anything else.
          
          I usually use a vacuum gauge.  Make sure it's hooked up to a 
          manifold vacuum source, not a ported or switched vacuum 
          source (see posts on TVS) and just turn the screws in and 
          out to maximize the vacuum reading.  There is some iteration 
          with this, as you'll need to adjust one side, then the 
          other, then back again.  In addition, this adjustment will 
          tend to change the idle speed, which must be reset to proper 
          levels, etc....
          
          PS, keep the Q-jet.  Get parts from the Carburetor Shop (I 
          think they're in Ontario, CA now).  I've never been able to 
          eliminate the flat spot in a Holley.  I have also had good 
          results with Carter AFBs (now also sold by Edelbrock).  Get 
          the strip tuning kit, which includes a wide variety of jets, 
          springs, and metering rods.  I ran two 500 cfm AFBs with 
          progressive linkage on a 455 with one of the 
          long-out-of-production Edelbrock dual quad manifolds.  The 
          engine got 14 mpg in a 71 Cutlass.
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: "Bruce D. Brumm" <bdbrumm@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 20:59:53 -0300
Subject: Re: Overdrive whine...

Shawn M. Twomey wrote:
> 
> >Just a note on late model Cutlass's with a whine...   I have an 86 442 that
> >also has a whine in first gear.  It is my understanding that both the OD
> >tranny's, the TH 200 4R and TH 700 R4, have a whine in first gear that is
> >generated inside the tranny.  Tom Millard OLDSPWR@aol.com
> 
> I hear a loud whine in all gears, or even when the car is in park.  Damn
> thing sounds like it's got a supercharger in it.  Anyone point to a probable
> cause?

The only loud whine I have ever gotten in park is from my wife! :) (just 
kidding!!!)

Seriously, it could be an over-tightened/-tensioned belt.  My alternator noise
is greater because the insulating pad is missing off of the hood.  Check those
accessory belts. BTW, belt slippage produces beautiful music, also. 8^)

- -- 
Bruce D. Brumm (bdbrumm@ix.netcom.com)
Network & Systems Administrator
LDM Technologies, Inc.
Troy, MI

'84 Cutlass Supreme 307-Y
'86 Cutlass Salon 307-Y

------------------------------

From: <tc75918@hpr169.mdhc.mdc.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 18:17:44 -0300
Subject: Re: How to remove G-Body dash...

>      Yes, the H/O gear selector is in the speedometer like any other 
>      Cutlass w/ full gauges.  Matter of fact, the steering column actually 
>      rotates when you shift gears, although nothing is attached to it.  I 
>      had to laugh first time I noticed it do that.
>      

Hmm.  My 85 Salon has full gauges, and the steering column does rotate
when you shift, but there is no gear indicator in the spedo or dash.  Only 
in the cover plate for the console shifter (My 80 Calais was the same way
too).

I have seen them in the 80s Monte SS though.  I assume this would be the
same one in the H/O?  Thought it looked pretty cool, can they be trans-
planted?

- --Dan

------------------------------

From: OLDSPWR@aol.com
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 18:51:55 -0300
Subject: Steering column and shifter... 

Just to clear up some confusion. Cars (G-bodies) equipped with floor shifters
have a piece on linkage that connects the gear selector on the tranny to the
steering column (just like a column shifter would).  The purpose of this is
because the neutral safety switch and reverse light switch are attached to
the column, and as the column spins, they are selected.  Tom Millard
OLDSPWR@aol.com

------------------------------

From: isagil <isagil@CAM.ORG>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 22:10:58 -0300
Subject: Re: 12-bolt rear end

David Paulison wrote:
> 
> At 02:38 AM 4/18/96 -0300, you wrote:
> >Do all the GM) 12-bolt differentials have a 8.875" ring gear?
> >
> >Just curious.
> >
> >
> no
> --
> Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
> dpauliso@metrolink.net

thanks!

<isagil@cam.org>

------------------------------

From: John Schmich <schmich@AZStarNet.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 20:15:17 -0300
Subject: Re: How to remove G-Body dash... 

At 06:17 PM 4/18/96 -0300, you wrote:
>>      Yes, the H/O gear selector is in the speedometer like any other 
>>      Cutlass w/ full gauges.  Matter of fact, the steering column actually 
>>      rotates when you shift gears, although nothing is attached to it.  I 
>>      had to laugh first time I noticed it do that.
>>      
>
>Hmm.  My 85 Salon has full gauges, and the steering column does rotate
>when you shift, but there is no gear indicator in the spedo or dash.  Only 
>in the cover plate for the console shifter (My 80 Calais was the same way
>too).
>
>I have seen them in the 80s Monte SS though.  I assume this would be the
>same one in the H/O?  Thought it looked pretty cool, can they be trans-
>planted?
>
>--Dan
>
>
     Actually, it is really hard to see it move unless you have somebody
else changing the gears for you.  I never noticed until my dad was driving
my car one day.
     As for the gear indicator, there is one on your tach.  It is just
covered up with a black piece of plastic.  Oldsmobile did this because a
person could order a car with the guage package and still have the colomn
shifter.  If you have your owner's manual, it will show a picture of the
tach w/ the indicator at the bottom.

Brandon
86 Salon
Brodie
85 Salon

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 20:33:08 -0300
Subject: Correct Paint Color 

To all,

Does anyone know where to get the correct red/maroon paint that is in the
center of the Rocket emblems and hubcaps/wheelcovers? It seems the red always
seems to fade, but the black remains fine, especially on the hubcaps. 

I can match the color pretty close, but getting it to stick to stainless
steel and chromed pot metal is another thing entirely!

Thanks,

Greg Kalkhoff  (T-Toro) 

------------------------------

From: Nick DiGiovanni <ndigiova@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 20:35:50 -0300
Subject: Re: Displacement 

At 02:54 AM 4/18/96 -0300, you wrote:
>Up until 1969
>General Motors corporate edict was no engine larger than 400ci in a
>midsize (hence, 400 Buick, Olds, Pontiac, 396 Chevy in A-bodies), however
>the Hurst Olds did have a 455 from 1968.  It is generally accepted that
>these cars were assembled at an outside location after the cars came off
>the production line but rumor has it that the 455's actually were factory
>installed.

According to many of the books that I have, H/Os were in fact assembled on a
factory assembly line.  Here is a quote from one of them:
"Only 515 ('68 H/Os) were ever built, although close to 2,000 were ordered.
While a paper shuffle helped fool the brass, the 455s were actually
installed on a factory assembly line.  This fact flies in the face of
legend, which has it that they were assembled at John Demmer's converted
foundry on the corner of Ballard and Oakland in Lansing, Michigan.  The work
done at Demmer Special Machinery included paint and installation of trim,
such as the wooden dash.  According to Doc Watson, in addition to 515 H/Os
made available to the general public, there were also four built with manual
transmissions - one for him, another for John Demmer's son, and two others.

Nick DiGiovanni
Port Coquitlam, B.C.
1970 4-4-2 - "Snarls Softly and Carries a Big Kick"

------------------------------

From: Robert Yasczak <VJTD@grove.iup.edu>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 23:09:11 -0300
Subject: dash speakers

	What is the easiest way to get to the two dash speakers in the G-boby
1980's Cutlass.  I want to change the ones in my 1985 to get better soi\und up
front.  It has been a month or so since I've been home to do any work on the
car so I can't remember how to get at them.  Would a service manual help with
this?  Also how do you readjust the in dash gear indicator, I think that it
says that I am in neutral when I am actually in drive, this has gotten worse
since I had a turbo 350 put in, I was tired of messing around with the three
speed metrics that the car orinionally had.  You wouldn't believe the
difference that it made in the performance of the 3.8L.

			Robb Yasczak   vjtd@grove.iup.edu
			1969 Cutlass
			1969 442
			1976 442
			1985 Cutlass

P.S.   Thanks for any help in advance.  

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 23:42:57 -0300
Subject: NEW bravada 

ok, the day has come...the local dealer just got a new one in...IT
ROCKS...console mounted shifter, tach, they even moved the spare under the
truck, the only thing thast not good, are the wheels...they chnaged from the
swirl wheels to a strait spoke...doesnt look as good
                    zack
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\ "That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
 *************

------------------------------

From: Scott D Ballentine <sb7k+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 00:51:18 -0300
Subject: Re: dash speakers

The dash speaker covers should probably be held in by two or three
clips.  You just pry the covers off very carefully -  a previous owner
broke the clips off in my Cutlass, so now those covers just sit there. 
There should be two or three screws holding the speakers in, and after
you remove those, that it.  Those clips are similar to the ones that
hold the woodgrain plastic faceplate around the radio and lighter, and
if you've ever had that out, you probably know that it can be a pain not
to break those clips off.  Anyway, should only take about five minutes -
just be careful.  Good luck.
    -Scott Ballentine
     sb7k@andrew.cmu.edu
     Carnegie Mellon University
     School of Computer Science

------------------------------

From: "Jason P. Labay" <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 04:25:17 -0300
Subject: Re: Overdrive whine...

> 
> >Just a note on late model Cutlass's with a whine...   I have an 86 442 that
> >also has a whine in first gear.  It is my understanding that both the OD
> >tranny's, the TH 200 4R and TH 700 R4, have a whine in first gear that is
> >generated inside the tranny.  Tom Millard OLDSPWR@aol.com

Well I have not experienced those whine's on my family's cars. Our  87 Caprice Classic 
has the 700 R4 and the 86 Buick Electra Wagon (which has the Olds 307:)) has the 200 4R. 
The Buick has 158,000 miles on the original 200 4R.  
- -- 
Jason P. Labay (Akron, Ohio)				  z28cfi@gwis.com
Grad Student in Sport Administration at Kent State U.     f-list since: 7/95
1988 Camaro Z/28 Cross-Fire Injection 305
1975 Hurst/Olds W-25

------------------------------

From: "Schroedinger's Clint" <clint@digex.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 01:55:54 -0300
Subject: Re: Overdrive whine...

>Just a note on late model Cutlass's with a whine...   I have an 86 442 that
>also has a whine in first gear.  It is my understanding that both the OD
>tranny's, the TH 200 4R and TH 700 R4, have a whine in first gear that is
>generated inside the tranny.  Tom Millard OLDSPWR@aol.com

I also don't have the whine.  My Cutlass is sporting a 700R4 (though it
has had a relatively recent rebuild).  Neither of my Camaro's (an 89 305
and a 93 Z28) had it and they both had 700s.  My friend's Monte SS also
doesn't have the whine (running a 200R4).

                          _________
Rocket Boy!             _|_ _\\____|_     '81 Cutlass Supreme
clint@darklair.com       |___//____|      (G-body with F-pieces)

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 02:07:30 -0300
Subject: Re: Mid-engine Cutlass, etc. 

In a message dated 96-04-18 16:17:12 EDT, you write:

>> >I
>> >remember the show car with the Toro 455 (403) under that back window. Has
>> >that show car been crushed, or is it still around?
>
>I just saw it. When I was going to visit that 69 H/O, I stopped for
>directions,
>and this old guy owns it. It's kinda ragged out now, needs a cleaning, but
>still driving... And for sale, about $10K he said... He has lots of
>documentation with it, magazine articles, etc. --Chris--

Man, Chris, what with Padnos selling you Olds iron for pennies a pound, cheap
but rough musclecars for sale, and one-off factory show cars roaming your
streets, it sounds like you live in Oldsmobile heaven! Keep bringing these
things up, and we'll all move out to your farm and start an Olds commune,
hunting and gathering Olds parts and cars for the young'uns back home...

Speaking of which, whatever happened to our shares in Hall's? I sent in my
$1000...


;)

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 02:07:32 -0300
Subject: How to get a Toro to go home with you. 

Wine and sweet-talking are pretty ineffective; according to AAA, what you
need is insurance and registration, and then they will happily flatbed it
home for you. I spent this morning running around Connecticut trying to
accomplish this, and had everything in place (signatures, fees, etc) by
10:30am. The CT DMV now has a policy of having you "check in" at the info
desk so that they can go over what you have and what you need *before* you
wait in line, and of giving you a number so that you can simply sit where you
want and only go up when they get to your number. Boy has a lot changed from
my youthful days of standing in line for 2 hours, only to find out I had the
wrong form! 

With my 20-day temp plate in hand, I go to the abandoned warehouse that the
Toro was kept in, unbolt the gate (the owner lost the key to the padlock, but
four 3/4" nuts later, I'm in), raise the door, and survey the beast. Did
anyone ever notice that, with the headlights exposed in that split grille, a
'68-'69 Toro looks like a '67-'68 Firebird encased in a much larger car?

Well, the car has been sitting for six years, so the first thing is a bottle
of carb/injector cleaner in the tank to slosh around on the tow home. Then
bolt on the temp plates, and call AAA courtesy of a borrowed cell phone (I
*need* to get one of these things for myself!). Of course, calling AAA is
easier when you actually have the card, which I soon discover I *don't*!  =^o

Yikes! My wife (only other access to the card) is out enjoying this first
warm day of '96, so I'm stuck, until I remember that I've got the receipt
from my Vista Cruiser tow; ah-ha! my membership #! And while rummaging for
the card, I came across a pamphlet on all the great services AAA offers which
has the emergency #. It's nice when things work out in life, isn't it?

Tow guys tend to be either real nice or real, uh, *not* nice guys. Luckily, I
get a good guy, who notices my apprehension about just hooking onto any
random piece in the front end (visions of bent axles, distorted torsion bars,
twisted A-arms are dancing in my head), so he lets me hook it up where I
want. Since I am a veteran Toro owner of about 45 minutes, I test out this
and that, finally figuring how to hook that beefy crossmember up front there.
Since the car isn't running yet, the winch pulls the car up, he cinches it
down tight, and we're off!

I always envied people who had their classics being hauled around on a
flatbed, showing off to all the world their pride and joy. Well, for once I
got to enjoy that experience; can't recommend AAA Plus service highly enough!

Back at the ranch (house), I survey my find. Man, are Toros different!
Different starter, different Idler arm, diff intake, diff A/C box, etc. I'm
used to the GM rwd platform, which has only (relatively) minor variations
across the years, models and body styles. This Toro is something else, which
just convinces me more that I need a factory shop manual.

I pull the plugs, spray solvent, and the motor turns with a wrench no
problem. I hook up a battery and the motor spins readily. In go the plugs,
starting fluid down the carb, top off the fluids and crank her up!

Well, not quite. I crank her, but she doesn't go. Hmmm, plenty of gas here
(and I've just added fuel to the tank), but no spark. This is the point of my
biography that will be entitled "Bob realizes the Wisdom of GM in designing
integrated components like HEI", since diagnosing the parts of a points
system is an arcane skill I could live without acquiring.

I test, I probe, nothing! She spins, but won't fire.

Grrr, well, in a week I'll get another chance

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 02:53:54 -0300
Subject: UPDATED: VICA Engine Blow up 

>     Anyway, the Northstar ran (No radiators_) for about six minutes then
>quit.  The diesel ran for less than two!  (both wide open, no load)  After
>the diesel died, the Northstar fired up again, and ran for close to another
>twenty minutes!  Great show!  Fireballs from the exhaust filling up the
>skies.  It was cool!  I got some good pics of it, and I'll get them on my
>page (if they turn out!)  and let you all see that.  (I don't think I'd be
>able to get the video in there, though!)
>     Just wanted to share that info with everyone.  Later!

     Took the Northstar apart today, bearings looked good as new!  (A little
heated, but no copper even showing!)  No coolant, very little oil, nearly
1/2 hour WOT no load!  Unreal!!!  Biggest (only???) problem was the crank
sensors that got hot, melted, expanded, and came into contact with the crank
wheel.  They bent out of shape a bit, and made it run rough.  Everything on
the lower end looked great (except for the oil!  Looked like varnish, and
smelt awful!)
     Yup, Olds made this one!  
     Haven't checked the top ends, yet, but everything looks good so far!
We plan on firing it up again to piss off the diesel bunch!  :)

     This is called fun!

    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 455
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 02:53:56 -0300
Subject: Re: dash speakers 

>	What is the easiest way to get to the two dash speakers in the G-boby
>1980's Cutlass.  
     Robb, these are quite simple.  The grilles pop right off (just like the
woodgrain dash inserts) and expose the 3 1/2" speakers up there.  Fosgate
made a good pair of twins that sounded great there.  I've also used Fosgate
4X6 twins there, and currently have Oz Audio 4 inchers in there.  These last
ones are highly recommended, yet highly NOT recommended, because they were a
pain in the ass to install.  (Step one, remove dash.  Step two, cut big
holes in dash, step three, put dash back in...)  I also have a Fosgate 4X6
center channel with the grill from a Gran Prix in there.  Sounds good, but
the Fosgate sounds awful next to the Oz.  The Oz tweets are cut into the
pillars.  There are some pics on my homepage, if your interested in seeing them.

     Like I said, the 3+1/2's are cake to install, so I'd highly recommend a
good set of two ways there.

     Good Luck

    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 455
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 03:05:06 -0300
Subject: Dukes of Hazzard: Get This! 

    Flipping thru channels on our new Sat. Dish today, came across an old
episode of Dukes of Hazzard.  About to click the button again, but they pan
across a stock car.  From the side, I can see an early 80's Cutlass, but
that's about it.  Never knew the show was that new!  Turns out they race it
on an oval track against names like Allison and Petty (and win, of course)
but, like the show would have it, the car keeps changing.  For a while, it
was an '81 Brougham, then it was a Regal, later it had a MC SS front end!
(Same Cutlass side windows, and Olds taillights, but a Chubby front end!
(that ~kept~ changing!  It must have been GM day on the set for that one,
they wrecked a '69 Firebird, and a '79 or 80 Olds, and had a slug of early
80's GMs in the race.  Kinda cool, for those days!

    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 455
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: JDZU03A@prodigy.com (CLERK BRIAN C O'DONNELL)
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 03:16:06 -0300
Subject: [none]

subscribe oldsmobile.

------------------------------

From: Rod Rickenbach <rod@hopi.dtcc.edu>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 09:56:46 -0300
Subject: '69-'72 GM A Body Disc Brake Conversion

Anybody done this?  Any idea what's involved?

Here's my problem: I need to know what is required to convert a '70 Buick
Skylark (Ok, pretend it's an Olds Cutlass B;) from drum brakes to a disc
brake setup.  I bought a car recently that had the conversion already
done, but it looks like he used the wrong parts... (Looks like spindles
from an '80's GM G body or something).  THe geometry is all screwed up...
When I drive the car and go over a bump, the front tires "toe in", then
screech and pull to one side when the front end comes down (from the tires
re aligning). 

I wonder if just purchasing the proper spindles would be enough.

Any thoughts/opinions greatly appreciated...

Thanks much



- -Rod
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Rod Rickenbach                                       Delaware Tech
     rod@dtcc.edu                                 Computer Services Department
http://www.dtcc.edu/~rod                            Stanton/Wilmington Campus

------------------------------

From: David A <davida@tdl.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:29:27 -0300
Subject: Dual TH-400 Trans [5 speed]

Can the listening audience let me know
where the info came from about the 
custom auto trans idea using two
TH-400? [that's the GM 3 speed unit
for big block or high torque applications]

Not only would I like a couple of these 
gems, but I may consider tooling up
for production of these units, too.

What a concept!!

Regards, 

Dave Adamchik, Autocraft, div. of 
InterX Services, Inc. Carson City, Nev.
800-923-1713
< davida@interex.com >

------------------------------

From: Doug Ahern <doug@cobra.cosmic.uga.edu>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:58:12 -0300
Subject: Re: '69-'72 GM A Body Disc Brake Conversion

> Anybody done this?  Any idea what's involved?
> 
> Here's my problem: I need to know what is required to convert a '70 Buick
> Skylark (Ok, pretend it's an Olds Cutlass B;) from drum brakes to a disc
> brake setup.  I bought a car recently that had the conversion already
> done, but it looks like he used the wrong parts... (Looks like spindles
> from an '80's GM G body or something).  THe geometry is all screwed up...
> When I drive the car and go over a bump, the front tires "toe in", then
> screech and pull to one side when the front end comes down (from the tires
> re aligning). 

find any year 64-72 skylark/cutlass/chevelle/tempest with front disk brakes.
68-72 would be preferred, since the 64-67 front disk models  are 1) rare
and 2) will move your tires inward .5" to 1" or so.  You'll need to swap:

1) master cylinder and booster
2) proportioning valve
3) spindle/disk/caliber assembly.

you can use the existing brake lines that run to the front drums from the 
master cylinder to the wheels as well as the steering linkage that runs
to the spindles.  

compared with 68-72's, 64-67 front ends are .5" to 1" narrower as is the rear.  

I did the swap of 70 front disks to my 64.  if you have any questions, 
let me know.

make sure you get an alignment after swapping front ends.


If the FAQ team has included this question, yall ought to consider it..

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 02:05:33 -0300
Subject: Re: How to get a Toro to go home with you.

Bob0Barry@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Man, are Toros different!  This Toro is something else...

You betcha!

And welcome to the Leper Colony.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:45:26 -0300
Subject: Re: dash speakers 

>	What is the easiest way to get to the two dash speakers in the G-boby
>1980's Cutlass.  I want to change the ones in my 1985 to get better soi\und up
>front.  It has been a month or so since I've been home to do any work on the
>car so I can't remember how to get at them.

They service from the top; they're held in by the same sort of light-blue
colored, very nasty spring clips that hold the faceplates on. You just have
to hook a blunt instrument under the edge of the grilles and pull up a lot
harder than you think you should. Once you reveal the speakers, they unscrew
and lift right out.

>Would a service manual help with this?

Figure 6B: "Pry up here"  :-)

>Also how do you readjust the in dash gear indicator, I think that it
>says that I am in neutral when I am actually in drive, this has gotten worse
>since I had a turbo 350 put in, I was tired of messing around with the three
>speed metrics that the car orinionally had.

I can think of three degrees of answer here:

1) QUICK 'N' DIRTY: Remove the hush panel/crotch cooler assembly under the
steering column. Four hex-head screws, two recessed at the upper corners,
two more on the lower edge; you can let it dangle from the cooler hose at
the back temporarily. Look up through the opening and you should see a
little spring-steel clip on the edge of the column bowl, with a string
attached which disappears upstairs somewhere. Pull gently on the string
and notice that the PRNDL ("prindle") indicator moves. Carefully slip the
clip off the edge of the bowl, put the gearshift in Neutral, and reattach
the clip at the right point to indicate Neutral on the pointer. Move the
gearshift through all gears to check your alignment; readjust as necessary.

2) "PROPER" METHOD: Got a floor shifter in this car? Most likely the
engine/transmission/linkage geometry is a bit different now that you've 
swapped stuff down there, and I would guess that possibly your backup
lights don't come on at the right time either. On a column shift you're
sort of "pulling" the linkage from one end; with a floor shift you're
"pushing" it from the other (remember all the talk here about how the
column bowl turns by itself even though there's no column lever on it).
Basically the bowl assembly is a little out of synch with the transmission
so the prindle pointer is off, the backup lights don't come on unless you
wiggle the shifter just so, and in extreme cases you have to turn the bowl
counterclockwise by hand before you can start the car. Get under the car
and you'll find one connection in the linkage assembly where a collar is
clamped by a single bolt to a straight arm, so that loosening the bolt
allows you to reclamp the collar at a different point on the arm. Make
little adjustments here and you can alter the position of the steering
column bowl, and fine-tune the stuff like backup lights, prindle pointer
and starter interlock that follows the rotation of the bowl.

3) METHOD YOU DIDN'T THINK YOU NEEDED: The adjustment you did in (2) above 
may be necessary even if you haven't changed _anything_ under the hood, 
because as the motor mounts age, sag or collapse, the engine settles lower
down and pulls slightly on the linkage. Installing new motor mounts can 
help. I had to go through all this on my '82 Cutlass a while back; from 
what I remember, I stopped at Step (2) above and never did actually change 
the mounts...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 05:22:12 -0300
Subject: Re: dash speakers 

     I just pried mine out with a 1" wide gasket scraper.  Don't do it when 
     it's cold or you can crack the dash, it's also easier to get the clips 
     to pull out when the dash is warm and pliable.  Go slow and don't lift 
     one side very far before doing the other some.  You also might want to 
     use something else as a "fulcrum" to pivot your gasket scraper against 
     (to distribute the weight more so you don't mar the dash) rather than 
     using the dash around the speaker cover as a fulcrum.   A screwdriver 
     shaft worked for me.
     
     You kinda have to tilt it at a strange angle and twist to get it out 
     of there, due to the obstruction by the windshield.  Then you'll see 
     two screws holding the speaker in.  About the only thing that will 
     reach these screws is a tiny 1/4" drive ratchet.  Pull speakers out 
     and replace!  It's a very common size of speaker and lots of companies 
     make aftermarket ones.  I have Infinity Kappas in mine, and they sound 
     great, but I think they've been discontinued.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: dash speakers
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    4/18/96 7:51 PM


 What is the easiest way to get to the two dash speakers in the G-boby
     1980's Cutlass.  I want to change the ones in my 1985 to get better 
     soi\und up front.  It has been a month or so since I've been home to 
     do any work on the 

------------------------------

From: Cary Yamamoto <yamamoto@unr.edu>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 12:41:46 -0300
Subject: Movie, Cutlasses

A while back I sent a post about spotting a truckload of '70-'72 Cutlass
convertibles downtown.  I thought nothing of it except for the fact that
they were all painted the same (a dingy, dirty orange red).  It turns out
that I saw a movie preview starring Woody Harrelson who takes his Amish
friend to Reno to win at poker.  Lo and behold he was driving this orange
cutlass!  All 8 cutlasses on that truck were probably used in the
movie-and they probably wrecked a few too.  So I hope you check this movie
out.

On another note the movie "milk Money" starring Meg Ryan also shhowcased
another Cutlass convertible.  Unfortunately it gets flamed..



Cary Yamamoto                                 University of NV, Reno
Coordinator,                                  Prospective Students/110
Prospective Students                          Reno, NV  89557
                                              (702) 784-4865 
	                                      (702) 784-1852 fax	 

------------------------------

From: hpnaepflin@CCGATE.HAC.COM
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 13:43:43 -0300
Subject: Help! 

Hi All!

Been lurking on the digest for the past few months.  Vote for 1 list although 
traffic is getting up to where a newsgroup might be a good idea.  Well said, 
Andy Green, on your mail list hygene summary.  Edit them quotes.

My 70 Cutlass is acting up a bit and I'm temporarily driving her 70 miles a day 
so I really need to fix a couple of things THIS WEEKEND.

First, she's going through a quart of ATF every tankfull with no visible leaks.  
Vacuum modulator...Right??  Is this as bonehead a swap as it would seem, its the 
THM350?  Any hints?

Second, and more annoying, the ignition circuit seems to be grounded out when 
cranking so i have to start her by cranking in short pulses and hope that she 
catches at the end of the crank.  Ignition works fine in "run".  Anybody have 
this happen before and/or have any trouble shooting hints??

Please send any advice direct to me as well as to the list so i can get around 
to fixing her tommorrow.

Hans
hpnaepflin@ccgate.hac.com


------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 13:51:42 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: '69-'72 GM A Body Disc Brake Conversion 


Use the 69-72 disc brake setup, as the earlier cars use 
the rare (and functionally less desireable) four piston
calipers.  You will need the obvious spindles, rotors,
calipers, master cylinder, and proportioning valve.
Also, be sure to get the following from the donor car:

1.  The frame-mounted brackets which support the 
inboard end of the rubber brake line hoses to the 
calipers.  These brackets have different cutouts than 
those for the drum brake hoses.

2.  The hardline from the master cylinder to the 
front wheels.  These are similar to the ones for 
drums, but have some minor differences in the routing 
and especially the flare nuts.  GM used a common tube 
diameter but different flare nut thread diameters to 
preclude misconnections on the assembly line.  At a 
minimum you may need to cut the flare nuts off of the 
lines on the donor car and reinstall them on the lines 
in your car (be sure to use a double-flare tool to 
re-flare the lines).

I would suggest that you buy new rubber flex hose to 
the calipers.  This hose is different from the drum 
configuration, but reuse of the old hose from the donor 
car is a scary proposition.  The rubber definitely 
deteriorates with age.

The ball joints, control arms, and tie rod ends 
should all be the same from the drum to disc 
configurations.  You may need to change wheels, as 
early wheels (including the first generation SS I 
wheels) will not clear the disc brake calipers.  
All the SS II wheels and most post 1970 wheels will clear.

One thing to look into, however is the fact that 
this car may have aftermarket lowered spindles.  
These are now available for the early A-body cars, 
although I think they use S-10 rotors and calipers 
(probably due to availability).  Also, several companies 
make kits to allow the installation of second generation 
F-body spindles and brakes on the A-body cars.  This 
has two advantages:  Bigger brakes and an improved roll 
center for better handling.

Joe Padavano
jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

66 442
68 W-30
69 H/O
70 W-30

------------------------------

From: <tc75918@hpr169.mdhc.mdc.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 13:37:02 -0300 Subject: Re: How to remove G-Body dash...

> >
> >
>      Actually, it is really hard to see it move unless you have somebody
> else changing the gears for you.  I never noticed until my dad was driving 
> my car one day.
>      As for the gear indicator, there is one on your tach.  It is just
> covered up with a black piece of plastic.  Oldsmobile did this because a 
> person could order a car with the guage package and still have the colomn 
> shifter.  If you have your owner's manual, it will show a picture of the 
> tach w/ the indicator at the bottom.
> 

Do you know if the actual markings and indicator are still in there, or is 
it empty and they just covered the hole with the plastic piece?

- --Dan

------------------------------

From: johnspr@ix.netcom.com (JOHN PRESTON ) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 13:53:50 -0300 
Subject: Benchmark Car Prices

Thought you might be interested in car prices on some relevant cars here in 
the Rustbelt Northeast.

I'm finding in the process of looking for a decent M body Cutlass that 
**anything** with "no rust" (defined as no holes but likely having doors that, 
upon inspection, need to be replaced due to rot on the back side of the bottoms) 
instantaneously are worth about $2000.

'84 Hurst Olds, collectors item, orig owner, fully loaded, $12500. '87 Buick 
Grand National, new, never been licensed, $18000. obo.

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com> Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 06:51:59 -0300 
Subject: Re: Movie, Cutlasses 

I saw that preview last weekend too.  The Cutlass was in just about every 
outdoor scene they showed.  They didn't show it getting trashed, but they 
did show it "catching some air" coming over a hill, so I'm sure they didn't 
do it any good.

Everyone here knows better than to lend their car to a movie production company, 
right????

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ 
Subject: Movie, Cutlasses
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET Date:    4/19/96 9:22 AM

A while back I sent a post about spotting a truckload of '70-'72 Cutlass 
convertibles downtown.  I thought nothing of it except for the fact that 
they were all painted the same (a dingy, dirty orange red).  It turns out that 
I saw a movie preview starring Woody Harrelson who takes his Amish friend to 
Reno to win at poker.  Lo and behold he was driving this orange cutlass!  All 
8 cutlasses on that truck were probably used in the movie-and they probably 
wrecked a few too.  So I hope you check this movie out.

------------------------------

From: Rocket Boy <clint@darklair.com> Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 21:19:39 -0300 
Subject: Re: Movie, Cutlasses

>      Everyone here knows better than to lend their car to a movie 
>      production company, right????

Actually My uncle had the job of finding cars for most movies filmed in and 
around Baltimore for a few years.   Various cars of his showed up in Crybaby, 
Tin Men, Avalon, and other movies.   

He was 'black listed' after a dispute with the movie company over how they 
treated one of his cars.  8^(


BTW, I am taking my Cutlass to the track this evening.   I'm hoping for 
mid 17's (305 Chubby, 700R4, 2.41 open rear, tiny exhaust pipes).  Wish me luck...

Clint
                          _________
Rocket Boy!             _|_ _\\____|_     '81 Cutlass Supreme clint@darklair.com
                         |___//____|            by Oldsmobile

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com> Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 13:55:09 -0300 
Subject: Removing the Clip-On Dash Panels 

Re: The discussion about removing the gauges, etc., on the Cutlass. The 
nastiest step is the first one, where you have physically yank the snap-on 
faceplate panels off. This includes the plastic surround around the light 
switch and left-side vent, the center panel (with or without clock and/or 
rear defogger on early models), the lower panel surrounding the radio and 
HVAC controls, and the shift console if so equipped.

The problem is that the clips are usually under the far corners of the piece, 
yet the only place where you can really get a grip on it is around the opening(s) 
in the middle, so it's hard to pull straight out on the hidden clips. What you 
need is any sort of "L"-shaped tool that you can snake through the opening in order 
to hook under the panel and pull from somewhere closer to the head of the clip 
itself. What I use is a bicycle tire repair lever, an L-shaped little lever that's 
used to pry the bead of a bike tire off the rim. I pull on the panel with my
fingers just enough to open a gap between the cover and the light switch, radio 
faceplate or whatever, slide the head of the lever through the gap until it butts 
against the clip in back, then pull. The clip pops right out without cracking the 
panel. HTH...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431 Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com Chicago, IL  60610-3498    
FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #152
********************************

