
oldsmobile-digest          Thursday, 6 June 1996       Volume 01 : Number 196


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ndg@traverse.com (Nielsen Design Group)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:06:47 -0300
Subject: '68 4-spd boot 

>     My car does not have the console, and there is one rather large boot
>     that screws to the floor.  I've read that console cars used the same
>     boot but got a second boot on the console as well.

My car has buckets/no console also. My shifter boot is not square but rather
kind of round/D-shaped and quite large. Sound correct?

- -Darren
 '68 442

------------------------------

From: ndg@traverse.com (Nielsen Design Group)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:06:05 -0300
Subject: more and more '68ness 

> BODY BY FISHER
> 11D
> ST  68-33687 LAN198234 BODY
> L2 PAINT

>In a message dated 96-06-03 13:27:14 EDT, you write:

>I thought this meant the 4th week of November (that would be '67)???

>Paul

Chris Brown Witt emailed me with his deciphering of the cowl tag info:

>>Built 4th week of November, presumably 1967??? didn't a car's production run
from introduction in prev. year to about August of the model year?
  I could be confused on that point. But pretty sure that "11D" means November,
4th week.
  68- the year
     3 Oldsmobile
      36 the basic body style- Cutlass S I believe is the 442 base body
        87 the Sport Coupe- no post, right?
  LAN built in Lansing, MI
     198234 was the 98,234th body made that year. Should about match the VIN's
idea of how far along it was made, and also match more or less with the
month/date of production compared to how many were made total that year...
halfway thru the year, halfway thru the total # produced.

  Your info sounds complete & correct, not hoked up or cobbled.<<

I was looking for a '344' in there but I guess '336' is correct for the
base body style.
Anyone else have experience w/ '68 cowl tags?

- -Darren Shroeger
 '68 442

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:08:40 -0300
Subject: RE: My trip to the [Pontiac] Dealer Yesterday

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Sounds like they had you all tangled up in your underwear over this one... :)

- ----------
From: 	Andrew C. Green[SMTP:acg@frame.com]
Sent: 	Wednesday, June 05, 1996 10:45 AM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	My trip to the [Pontiac] Dealer Yesterday

(This is more engine-related than car-related, so I figured I'd post
this anyway...)

My Bonneville has the supercharged 3800 V6 in it -- same engine as that
of the Aurora? Anyway, it was making squealing noises any day after being
driven in wet weather, visual inspection showed that one tensioner pulley 
was kind of "growling" at idle, the service manual indicates that the entire 
pulley assembly would have to be replaced (you can't repack or replace 
the bearing), and the end of my 3mo/3000mi powertrain warranty was looming,
so I made an appointment for yesterday and brought it in.

First bit of news: "The tensioner pulley isn't covered under powertrain."
"We've had two phone conversations already about this specific part, and
_now_ you're telling me this?" "Uh, I'll check with my manager." I leave
the car anyway.

Second: Dealer calls back: As a "goodwill gesture" they'll spring for free
parts if I pay labor. Their estimate is $80 for pulley assembly, $129 labor.
I agree, knowing that replacing the stupid thing requires draining the
cooling system, among other things, and they can have that job. Afterthought:
if I'd offered to buy the _part_ instead of the _labor_, I guess I'd have got
the limited lifetime repair warranty on it. Oh, well...

Third: Dealer calls again: They find the pulley in good condition, water
pump fine, supercharger fine, but alternator (driven on the _other_ belt
under the _other_ tensioner) squeals when they spin it. They want to replace
the alternator ($200, on them) for $98 labor (on me).

So this was my problem, which I should have consulted you guys on yesterday:
Take the free $200 part which _they_ think will fix it, or insist on the
free $80 part which _I_ think will fix it?

So... I took the free alternator. I reasoned that if they're wrong in the
near future, I'm only out $80 for a tensioner which I'll replace myself.
OTOH, if it turned out that _I_ was wrong, I would have had an unnecessary
repair _and_ be faced with buying a $200 alternator. I picked up the car,
paid $98, and noticed that the "goodwill gesture" of a free alternator
was even itemized on the repair printout with its own computer code.  :-)

Drove it in to work again today. So far, so good. Did I guess correctly?
Do the GM spring-loaded belt tensioner pulleys have a reputation for failing
that I haven't heard about?

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473





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------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:05:53 -0300
Subject: Paint Job

My 86 olds cutlass supreme is going in the shop next week for its first =
ever complete paint job. I am keeping the original white color of =
course, but I am probably going to have to sacrifice my pin striping to =
the tape Gods, which makes me sick. Anyone in the southern NH, northern =
MA area know of a good/reasonably priced place to get pin striping done? =
(paint not tape) I have been getting estimates around 165.00 per side... =
which in total is almost half of the entire paint job and body work =
combined... Or maybe I just need counseling to help let go of the real =
stuff and accept the tape? :) Thanks in advance.

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:20:17 -0300
Subject: RE: My trip to the [Pontiac] Dealer Yesterday 

>Sounds like they had you all tangled up in your underwear over this one... :)

It's hard to argue with them when

1) They service these cars for a living

2) They will spend _more_ money on you if you let them fix it their way  :-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:45:22 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip to the [Pontiac] Dealer Yesterday

> From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>

> My Bonneville has the supercharged 3800 V6 in it -- same engine as that
> of the Aurora?

Not at all -- The Aurora has a 4.0 liter derivative of the Cadillac Northstar
32 valve V-8... not as much HP as the Caddy (275/300 HP for the Caddy,
depending on model... 250 I believe for the Aurora)

But the B**ck Riv has the same engine as your Poncho...



Tim Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'88 Cadillac Brougham, a.k.a. 'Big Blue' -- Olds 307 Powered!!
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: "C. K. Yee" <yu135008@yorku.ca>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:03:06 -0300
Subject: Re: olds 350 and 403

>      Does Hawaii require you to keep the computer?  If so, I wonder if the
>      computer can handle 403 cubes?  Going with that much of a larger
>      engine you'd probably need a different carb, which would be a tricky
>      proposition while keeping the computer controls.  The stock computer

This would be interesting.  How do the jets sizes differ between a
non-electronic carburetor for a 307, and a regular one for a 403?  Before
the engine warms up, E4ME carbs run in open loop mode, that is, there is
no computer control of the fuel mixture.  At this stage, only the spark
advance is computer controlled.  The computer begins to cycle the mixture
control solenoid once the oxygen sensor is sufficiently warm to produce
a meaningful output.  Open loop operation supplies quite a rich mixture,
and if this default jetting can accommodate the 403, then it may run with
no changes at all.  However, for closed loop operation, the dwell of the
mixture solenoid may not be at an optimum setting, so rejetting may take a
bit of experimentation.  Since the A/F mixture is tailored according to
the oxygen sensor output, I'd think the computer algorithm wouldn't need
to be changed, only possibly the "range" of mixture adjustment at the
carb (larger jets).  I think the 403 should be able to run on the
307 spark curve, although it wouldn't be optimized.

>      controls and carb would probably work with a 350, although with either
>      engine you might have to machine the knock sensor mount on the rear of
>      the block, I don't know if earlier engines had a mount there or not.

On my '88 307, the knock sensor is screwed into the engine block on the 
driver's side, where coolant drain plug normally goes.

Kevin Wong

------------------------------

From: Aaron Neumann <neumann.12@osu.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:10:15 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip, plus Aurora info 

>My Bonneville has the supercharged 3800 V6 in it -- same engine as that
>of the Aurora? 

Nope.  Far different.  The Aurora is a 4 liter (244 cu in.) 32 valve 8
cylinder with double overhead cams and aluminum block and heads.  250 HP.
It's been called one of GM's shining achievements.  I believe it was Smokey
Yunick who recently said that it was "the only engine out there worth a
@#*&!"  It's nice to know Oldsmobile is still kickin' after all these years.
It's the same engine that's in that new Aurora IMSA race car (except all
tricked out, of course)...the one that battling it out with the new Viper
GTS coupe.  Also, I believe Oldsmobile's skunk works is planning to release
a coupe version soon.  I've driven an Aurora...nice but overweight and fwd,
of course (sorry Mike and all those Toro owners). 

- -Aaron 

 _____
|  |  |* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
|  |  | "..saw a Deadhead sticker on a Cadillac, a little voice inside     *
|  |  |  my head said don't look back...you can never look back..."        *
| /|\ |Aaron Neumann  Akron, OH neumann.12@osu.edu 75213.656@compuserve.com*
|/_|_\|* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *	

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:25:50 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip, plus Aurora info

Aaron Neumann wrote:
> 
> I've driven an Aurora...nice but overweight and fwd,
> of course (sorry Mike and all those Toro owners).

Hey!  Who you callin' overweight?


The 66 Toro and Mike

- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "C. K. Yee" <yu135008@yorku.ca>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:39:51 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip to the [Pontiac] Dealer Yesterday

> My Bonneville has the supercharged 3800 V6 in it -- same engine as that
> of the Aurora?

This same engine comes in the Olds 88 LSS.

> Third: Dealer calls again: They find the pulley in good condition, water

It is quite easy to remove the drive belt, and individually check the 
pulleys.  I wonder why they didn't just pull the belt(s) and spin 
everything in the first place.

> pump fine, supercharger fine, but alternator (driven on the _other_ belt
> under the _other_ tensioner) squeals when they spin it. They want to replace
> the alternator ($200, on them) for $98 labor (on me).

I guess the alternator not covered under your warranty?  ($98!)

Kevin Wong

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:09:15 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip to the [Pontiac] Dealer Yesterday 

>> My Bonneville has the supercharged 3800 V6 in it -- same engine as that
>> of the Aurora?
>
>This same engine comes in the Olds 88 LSS.

Okay... (ahhh, Oldsmobile relevance! :-)

>It is quite easy to remove the drive belt, and individually check the 
>pulleys.  I wonder why they didn't just pull the belt(s) and spin 
>everything in the first place.

I did before I brought the car in. Couldn't get the pulley to go bad
by simply spinning it, presumably since it was under no load at all.
And it would only do the squealing (if that was it) chattering thing
after a rainy day, when I think water splash got into the bearing.
Somehow it got its residual grease recirculated after a while, because
the squealing would go away within, say, a day of post-rain driving.
But if I put a fingertip on the mount while the engine was idling, I
could feel a kind of grinding vibration coming from it.

They immediately blamed the alternator as soon as they removed the
belts and spun the pulleys. I hadn't bothered to pull the alternator 
(outboard) drive belt beforehand because I thought at the time that 
nothing on that circuit had anything to do with the problem.

>> pump fine, supercharger fine, but alternator (driven on the _other_ belt
>> under the _other_ tensioner) squeals when they spin it. They want to 
>> replace the alternator ($200, on them) for $98 labor (on me).

>I guess the alternator not covered under your warranty?  ($98!)

Nope, the alternator isn't under powertrain because among other things
it's not an internally-lubricated part, plus its failure wouldn't
immediately immobilize the car. But they promised to cover the parts
for this repair, whatever it turned out to be, so they paid for the
alternator anyway, and I guess things could have been worse. (Yeah, 
$98 is a bit much for labor -- I've read the manual and I know how to 
change the alternator on this car; you don't even have to tighten belts 
like on the old V-belt engines, but... well, you pick your battles, if 
you know what I mean.)

BTW, the dealer in question is Sullivan Pontiac, a big outfit in Arlington
Heights, IL. I'd recommend them.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:46:41 -0300
Subject: Mechanic's Glossary

I thought y'all might enjoy Kristin Brown's post from the Fordnatics:


> HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is
> used as a kind of divining rod to locate expensive car parts not far
> from the object we are trying to hit.
>
> MECHANIC'S KNIFE: Used to open and slice through the contents of
> cardboard cartons delivered to your front door; works particularly well
> on boxes containing convertible tops or tonneau covers.
>
> ELECTRIC HAND DRILL: Normally used for spinning steel Pop rivets in
> their holes until you die of old age, but it also works great for
> drilling rollbar mounting holes in the floor of a sports car just above
> the brake line that goes to the rear axle.
>
> HACKSAW: One of a family of cutting tools built on the Ouija board
> principle.  It transforms human energy into a crooked, unpredictable
> motion, and the more you attempt to influence its course, the more
> dismal your future becomes.
>
> VISE-GRIPS: Used to round off bolt heads.  If nothing else is
> available, they can also be used to transfer intense welding heat to
> the palm of your hand.
>
> OXYACETELENE TORCH: Used almost entirely for lighting those stale
> garage cigarettes you keep hidden in the back of the Whitworth socket
> drawer (What wife would think to look in _there_?) because you can
> never remember to buy lighter fluid for the Zippo lighter you got from
> the PX at Fort Campbell.
>
> ZIPPO LIGHTER: See oxyacetelene torch.
>
> WHITWORTH SOCKETS: Once used for working on older British cars and
> motorcycles, they are now used mainly for hiding six-month old Salems
> from the sort of person who would throw them away for no good reason.
>
> DRILL PRESS: A tall upright machine useful for suddenly snatching flat
> metal bar stock out of your hands so that it smacks you in the chest
> and flings your beer across the room, splattering it against the
> Rolling Stones poster over the bench grinder.
>
> WIRE WHEEL: Cleans rust off old bolts and then throws them somewhere
> under the workbench with the speed of light.  Also removes fingerprint
> whorls and hard-earned guitar callouses in about the time it takes you
> to say, "Django Reinhardt".
>
> HYDRAULIC FLOOR JACK: Used for lowering a Mustang to the ground after
> you have installed a set of Ford Motorsports lowered road springs,
> trappng the jack handle firmly under the front air dam.
>
> EIGHT-FOOT LONG DOUGLAS FIR 2X4: Used for levering a car upward off a
> hydraulic jack.
>
> TWEEZERS: A tool for removing wood splinters.
>
> PHONE: Tool for calling your neighbor Chris to see if he has another
> hydraulic floor jack.
>
> SNAP-ON GASKET SCRAPER: Theoretically useful as a sandwich tool for
> spreading mayonnaise; used mainly for getting dog-doo off your boot.
>
> E-Z OUT BOLT AND STUD EXTRACTOR: A tool that snaps off in bolt holes
> and is ten times harder than any known drill bit.
>
> TIMING LIGHT: A stroboscopic instrument for illuminating grease buildup
> on crankshaft pulleys.
>
> TWO-TON HYDRAULIC ENGINE HOIST: A handy tool for testing the tensile
> strength of ground straps and hydraulic clutch lines you may have
> forgotten to disconnect.
>
> CRAFTSMAN 1/2 x 16-INCH SCREWDRIVER: A large motor mount prying tool
> that inexplicably has an accurately machined screwdriver tip on the end
> without the handle.
>
> BATTERY ELECTROLYTE TESTER: A handy tool for transferring sulfuric acid
> from car battery to the inside of your toolbox after determining that
> your battery is dead as a doornail, just as you thought.
>
> AVIATION METAL SNIPS: See hacksaw.
>
> TROUBLE LIGHT: The mechanic's own tanning booth.  Sometimes called a
> drop light, it is a good source of vitamin D, "the sunshine vitamin",
> which is not otherwise found under cars at night.  Health benefits
> aside, its main purpose is to consume 40-watt light bulbs at about the
> same rate that 105-mm howitzer shells might be used during, say, the
> first few hours of the Battle of the Bulge.  More often dark than
> light, its name is somewhat misleading.
>
> PHILLIPS SCREWDRIVER: Normally used to stab the lids of old-style
> paper-and-tin oil cans and splash oil on your shirt; can also be used,
> as the name implies, to round off Phillips screw heads.
>
> AIR COMPRESSOR: A machine that takes energy produced in a coal-burning
> power plant 200 miles away and transforms it into compressed air that
> travels by hose to a Chicago Pneumatic impact wrench that grips rusty
> suspension bolts last tightened 40 years ago by someone in Abingdon,
> Oxfordshire, and rounds them off.


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Michael Blennerhassett <blenner@fhs.csu.McMaster.CA>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:10:48 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip, plus Aurora info

On Wed, 5 Jun 1996, Mike Frederick wrote:

> Aaron Neumann wrote:
> > 
> > I've driven an Aurora...nice but overweight and fwd,
> > of course (sorry Mike and all those Toro owners).
> 
> Hey!  Who you callin' overweight?
> 
> 
> The 66 Toro and Mike
> 




Yo!  I've been called forward, but not fwd.  And I'm not overweight. So I'm 
mad.  Get some snow on those roads and let's see whose the boss.

Michael and a real 1966 technological innovation.

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:45:07 -0300
Subject: Re: June JWO 

In a message dated 96-06-04 20:44:48 EDT, you write:

>Interesting to note in the June JWO:
>
>- There is a picture of Bob Handren's '67 4-4-2...
>
>

ALL RIGHT!  Didn't know anything about that.  Very nice surprise.

So how come Greg gets his JWO in Canada before we get ours?  I mean like
Halifax isn't a whole lot closer to Lansing than Florida. The US Postawful
Service strikes again?

Bob Handren  OCA# 7728

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:44:58 -0300
Subject: Re: overheat...wrong pulleys?? 

In a message dated 96-06-01 18:09:00 EDT, you write:

>  Still trying to find my overheating cause on the 455ci I just finished
>building.  It has a new 3 core rad., 180 degree stat., new water pump and
>clutch fan ( 5 blade).  

You NEED a 4 core radiator.  You NEED a fan shroud and the biggest fan blades
that will fit in the shroud.  The thermostat _should_ take care of any pulley
size differences if you are using a matched set, i.e. from the same
year/model. 

Bob Handren  OCA# 7728
'67 W-30 Modified
'70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

------------------------------

From: Chris Urban <urbanch@magi.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:49:26 -0300
Subject: RE: 455 Edelbrock intake

I have a Holley Dominator which is similar.

- ----------
From: 	BARKER A.[SMTP:atbarker@mke9.ra.rockwell.com]
Sent: 	Tuesday, June 04, 1996 5:22 PM
To: 	Oldsmobile
Subject: 	455 Edelbrock intake

Does anyone have a used Edelbrock Torker II intake manifold for a 455,  are
there any other companies that make an intake similar to this?

Tony
81 Cutlass

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:01:22 -0300
Subject: Swap Meet, etc.

> >     With all of the talk about starfires, I just recently took note of one
> >     for sale.  It has the V-8 motor in it and needs work.  They want
> >     $1000.00.  Is this a good deal?  Anyone interested, mail me abd I will
> >     give you the particulars.
>
> What's the year?

Yeah, 1967? That'd be nice... 425 UHC engine with big-valve C heads...

> - ------ I reiterate... If the 403's -BLOCK- ID is "4A" then BUY IT QUICK----

Note- I think I erroneously stated earlier that the common block is the 4A..
To set the record straight as far as we know based on Mondelo's info, etc.:
                                                 BLOCK       HEAD
  Common, not to get excited about                4B          4A
  Rare, might be solid main web, investigate      4A         ? 4A presumably
- --Chris--

> I'm looking for 83/84 Hurst/Olds parts, new/used are both ok. Topping the
> list are the rear deck spoiler #22520884 (or just the tips from a damaged
> spoiler), license plate #22520895, console shifter plate #22520892, H/O
> header emblem.
> Bill                                           __          __       __

- --Line forms at the rear, Bill :)  --

> From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
> Well, if you have a '68 that has a VIN that starts with a "344" and a trim
> tag that says "ST 68-33687" then I'll take your word for it and offer

  Not one, but TWO of them...  33677 & 33667 I believe.
The only 68-9 442's I have seen where the body or trim tag 'style' number
matches the VIN 1st 3 digits were Canadian built units. I remember being quite
excited the first time I saw that phenomenon. Then I noticed the HUGE  "BUILT
IN CANADA" text... Is that our trip-up here? Greg, you're in Canada, right?

> number indicates "division series" and the chart says a 4-4-2 series is
> 344. Keep in mind that '68 was the first year for the 4-4-2 as a separate
> model series, so it's logical that the tag would be different from a

Hmmmm... I am working from W30 tags here; maybe lesser ordinary 442's are
trim-tag coded 344__... I didn't want the guy getting all bummed out thinking
he has a fake 442 when in fact there's no reason to state that. If his VIN says
344... then it is a real 442, body tag notwithstanding. [that's a long word!]

> Cutlass. Presumably if your argument holds true then all A-body based
> models of the same style would have the same code in that part of the tag
> regardless of series (i.e. all 4-door sedans regardless of whether they
> were F-85, Cutlass, or Supreme would theoretically be coded the same).

I think the various body styles still showed up on the trim tag, that is a
lowly f85 or whatever would be the 332... but the 336... cars were to get the S
hood, etc. so they had to have the 336... trim tag, whether they were destined
to get the 442 engine, suspension, W30 parts, etc. determined by the build
sheet... It's all real vague to me, though.

> Regardless it's nice to have yet *another* owner of a '68 here...
> obviously someone with *excellent* taste in fine automobiles!
> Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

Now we just need to get him hooked up with a real good engine...
- -Chris-

> - - And, on the subject of out-of-this-world car prices, Steve Hemminghaus
> *still* hasn't found a buyer for his '72 4-4-2 W-30 convertible, offered
> at the bargain price of only $43,000.00 (yes, that's correct, $43K)...
> Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

Oh, man, I was just hoping he hadn't sold that yet... Let's see, I just need to
sell Dick Miller about... 287 more pair of C heads... :)

> Projection systems. Is it possible to modify TPI system off a chevy 454 to
> fit an Oldsmobile?

Seems like that'd be pretty straightforward... similar displacements, custom
mounted injectors & such, but... why not? You finance it, I'll do it...

> According to a recent study, housewives feel more stressed than working women.

Duh! Working women don't have KIDS around all day... My wife does day care. I
don't see how she tolerates it...

> From: "Shawn M. Twomey" <stwom@ctp.com>
> Subject: For Lansing-area residents
> Oldsmobile car show/swap meet, Saturday June 15, 9-4pm, Main Administration
> building, Townsend St., Lansing.  Info, 517 663-2397.
> I got this out of the classifieds, does anybody know anything more about it?

Be there. Last year Ron Memmer was there. Next to me... It was brutally hot and
sunny all day long. He looked like a lobster by day's end. I gave him my last
Gatorade as I was pulling out, he looked like he needed it a lot more than did
I. I'll be there with a tarp for shade and rain protection... free drinks to
customers... the usual stuff. C heads, fake F head, Cutaway J head [good use
for 'em!], chrome-moly oil pump drive rods, etc. --Chris--

> Nothing new here, just a big thanks to Andy Green & Charlie for helping me
> out with the Check Engine+RPM slippage problem I was having with my '85.  As

> Andy helped me find the errant coolant sensor:

> out to be a really simple problem, but here I didn't have to waste any time
> FINDING it, when it probably would have taken me hours to troubleshoot myself.
> Shawn M. Twomey     |  "No!  Try NOT!  Do, or do not.  There is no try."

Ah, the wonders of electronically accessing consultants!

>      While looking for a '70 convertible, I am not sure what exactly I get
>      with the 442 option.  Regardless, I want the 455 engine, but apart
>      from the badges, etc. what else does the 442 option have?

Kinda like the Z28 is to the Camaro [sorry, guys, I had to blatantly use coarse
language to make a point...] More engine, more suspension, ID badges, etc. It
varied by year, too.

>      Is there any good book(s) that I can purchase to tell me the
>      differences of each year and various options?
>      Todd

Yeah, Dennis Casteele's _442 a Sourcebook_ is just what you need, though it is
limited to 442's only.... his other book, _The Cars of Oldsmobile_ probably
covers more models in more detail... Either or both probably in your local
library- the MSU library has both of them...  I constantly refer to the former
book... It tells what features each year's 442 came with, and what options were
available, like W30, and what that included that year- a 1970 W30 package is
WAY different from a 1979 W30 package, say...
- --Chris--

> Agreed, but wouldn't there be some other noises to go along with the bad
> bearings? All he's reporting is a noisy lifter or three, due presumably
> to the poor pressure in the galleys, but I'd have thunk that he'd also
> be complaining about hammering and knocking noises from lower down if
> bearings were going bad...
> Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431

Hmmmmm... the race car toasted it's internals with no sign of knocking. Never
'spun' the bearing either, just melted them away... Of course, with that
exhaust, or lack thereof, who would know if it were hammering...? -Chris-

> I plan to be there wearing my B-man Web shirt.  I'm leading toward taking
> the '77 Delta daily driver.  Hope to see a lot of others there!  Maybe
> Chris will invite us over to get a glimpse of his tri-power 455.
> David Brown          OCA #27978         (312) 702-9157

I'll be having my T-shirt on , too... Dunno about having visitors, though...
the garage is but a path thru the guts of 3 engines spread out all over right
now... wanna see the engine, look on the web page :)  Next year I expect to
have it at the BIG show, IN the car and operating...

> Oh well, time to find the drain (brand new Die-Hard Gold, in case anyone was
> wondering).  And I show a charge on the voltmeter, although it's not as high
> as I would've thought... bad diode on the internal regulator?  Will find out..
> Tim Churchill

Hey, it happened to me, too. I had a battery poop out right after I bought it.
I kept figuring it COULDN'T be the new battery, right, changed alternator,
VReg, alternator, VReg, swapped entire Alt/VR/Wiring system from a known
working car into the truck [Olds powered Chevy truck], STILL no workee. Took
battery back to Sears for testing... Yep, it's bad, you used 6 months of a 36
month battery, so...
  Uh, excuse me, I used *2* months of a *60* month battery...
  No, you have a 36-mo unit, 6 mo old...
  Show me...
They had mine confused with somebody else's, though mine was bad too.

It's a bell curve death rate kinda thing, statistics, ya know, 1% of them die
in the first month, 1% go for 10 years, most die at about 3-5 years of life.
Don't condemn the brand for that... -Chris-

> My Bonneville has the supercharged 3800 V6 in it -- same engine as that
> of the Aurora? Anyway, it was making squealing noises any day after being

An Aurora with a V6? What is that some kinda twisted, sick joke? Yeah, and a
2.5L-4 banger in the new Toronado...
  The Aurora is a 4-valve V8 if I am not mistaken.
That's *per cylinder*  -Chris-
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:05:35 -0300
Subject: 403

Dang. The 'good running' 403 I bought seems to have had a cracked head...
bearings look OK, lotsa gunk inside the engine... one lightly scratched
cylinder. I got the cam specs from Mondello's tech manual- lame-o lift of
0.400", weak duration too I presume. So, in goes a cam I had on hand from
another project [no, not the roached 28-29 cam...] with 0.440" lift...
Replacing a 350 in a '75 Cutlass, which presently makes knocking sounds.

Hey, I hope that one guy finally got his car turned off...
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Aaron Neumann <neumann.12@osu.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:47:55 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip, plus Aurora info 

At 04:10 PM 6/5/96 -0300, you wrote:
>
>
>On Wed, 5 Jun 1996, Mike Frederick wrote:

>
>
>Yo!  I've been called forward, but not fwd.  And I'm not overweight. So I'm 
>mad.  Get some snow on those roads and let's see whose the boss.
>
>Michael and a real 1966 technological innovation.
>
Oh, you had to go there, didn't you.  I'll take any fwd car on in the snow
with my '72 88 w/ anti-spin.  You see, there's only so much traction
available to a tire, and when the same tire has to provide power and
directional control, you sacrifice each.  Thus, when you make a turn in the
snow, and you start understeering, you don't have much control, but when I
make a turn and I start understeering, then I just power on out of it with a
little throttle.  You might have me if we met going up a slick hill, but I'd
rather drive rwd any day, any weather.  I had to drive through a snow storm
this winter on my way to Florida...I was passing 4x4's and semis in the
outer, snow covered lane (up to 4" in places).  That's either talent or
stupidity, but I made great time and the car never got loose.  

Now, let's clear things up.  I love Toro's.  They're a masterpiece of form
and function. But that's about it when it comes to fwd cars out there that I
like...with a few exceptions.  No hard feelings.  

- -Aaron 

 _____
|  |  |* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
|  |  | "..saw a Deadhead sticker on a Cadillac, a little voice inside     *
|  |  |  my head said don't look back...you can never look back..."        *
| /|\ |Aaron Neumann  Akron, OH neumann.12@osu.edu 75213.656@compuserve.com*
|/_|_\|* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *	

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:33:03 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip, plus Aurora info

Aaron Neumann wrote:
> 
> At 04:10 PM 6/5/96 -0300, you wrote:
> >
> >On Wed, 5 Jun 1996, Mike Frederick wrote:


NO, I DIDN'T.  
BEFORE YOU START TAKING ME TO TASK, PLEASE KEEP YOUR POSTS STRAIGHT.  
THE FOLLOWING WAS WRITTEN BY MIKE BLENNERHASSETT, NOT ME:


> >Yo!  I've been called forward, but not fwd.  And I'm not overweight. So I'm
> >mad.  Get some snow on those roads and let's see whose the boss.
> >
> >Michael and a real 1966 technological innovation.
> >


> I'll take any fwd car on in the snow with my '72 88 w/ anti-spin.  You 
> see, there's only so much traction available to a tire, and when the 
> same tire has to provide  power and directional control, you sacrifice 
> each.

Uhh, if you say so.

> Thus, when you make a turn in the snow, and you start understeering, 
> you don't have much control, 

Gee, all those years in Pennsylvania and I never realised that.

> but when I make a turn and I start understeering, then I just power on 
> out of it with a little throttle.  

Power through the turn?  Guess you can't do that with a Toro, huh?

> Now, let's clear things up.  I love Toro's.  They're a masterpiece of 
> form and function. But that's about it when it comes to fwd cars out 
> there that I like...with a few exceptions.  No hard feelings.

If I ever decide to return to the cold, dark north some winter, I'll take 
you up on your offer.


The 66 Toro and Mike          <----- SEE!  THIS IS ME!


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:46:25 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip, plus Aurora info 

>NO, I DIDN'T.  
>BEFORE YOU START TAKING ME TO TASK, PLEASE KEEP YOUR POSTS STRAIGHT.  
>THE FOLLOWING WAS WRITTEN BY MIKE BLENNERHASSETT, NOT ME:

I believe the operative phrase at this point would be,
"AND... THEY'RE OFF!!!"  :-)

>> but when I make a turn and I start understeering, then I just power on 
>> out of it with a little throttle.

Um, help me out with this one. You're in a RWD car, you're understeering,
and you want to add _more_ power? I thought understeer was essentially
sliding wide of your turn, oversteer was nosing in too much.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: J.Easton@zds.com (Jeff Easton)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:41:27 -0300
Subject: Re: Drill Diagrams

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>

>>     How can I get an accurate drill diagram for the 442 pin holes?  If the 
>>     answer is "nowhere", is there some kind of emblem tape that is 
>>     specifically used for this purpose, with a strong adhesive?

>3M makes an Emblem & Weatherstrip adhesive specifically for cars, but I
>kind of think it's intended more for flexible stuff like _plastic_ emblems
>and bump strips. If you hunt around, though, I think you'll find a thin
>foam tape with double-sided adhesive that will work; I don't know what it's
>called but it's the stuff that also comes pre-applied to the back of
>aftermarket molding strips. Are the numbers flat on the backside? You will
>need all the square footage you can get for gluing or taping purposes.

  The back side looks like this:  (cutaway side view)

        (bottom (mates to sheet metal)
        _     _
       | |_ _| |
       |_ |_| _|
         |___|

         (top)    

  The tape I used sits in the first shelf, not a lot of "sticking" area.
The 3M stuff is glue, in a tube.  Wouldnt work unless I caulked the area full,
then it would probably run out.

>All that aside, though, I'd be a little concerned that someone will relieve
>you of your stick-on emblems. But maybe you live in a better neighborhood
>than I do.  :-)

  Havent heard of too many reports of emblem theft.  They wouldnt know theyre
stick on anyway, unless they tried prying first...

>Tried an Olds service manual? There may be a drilling template in there,
>especially if replacement trunk lids weren't pre-punched for different
>nameplate castings. I wouldn'tna thunk they were...

Yes, the crummy build manual I bought has pages showing the general location
of all the different cutlass/F-85/442 fenders, and references a non-existant 
page for the exact measurments.  They dont even mention the trunklid.

  I suspect that the factory drilled each car's fenders, etc as it came down 
the assy line.  Saves on stocking 30 different fenders, etc.

>Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431

- ------------------------------

From: Lucas Frick <frick@macrochip.com>

>I used a piece of wood as a template for the 442 holes.  Use a 90 degree =
>thing - don't know what it is called, might be an Angle.  After many =
>holes drilled in the wood to get the spacing correct, I then transferred =
>this to masking tape.  Drill through the masking tape and you have got =
>it. This worked when I had a quarter panel replaced with a cutlass =
>quarter.  I also replaced the trunk emblems with numbers that were not =
>pitted last year.  You will probably need to use this same template to =
>drill holes from the inside of the trunk to place the retainers on the =
>back side of the numbers.  After the retainers were put on I used bondo =
>to patch up the inside of the trunk.=20

  Heres the whole story.

  Taped the pinless emblems on the trunk with masking tape.
  After perfect alignment, took measurments.
  Took measurments of pins relative to edges of emblems.
  Transfered all this to sheet of cardboard.
  Punched holes in cardboard.
  Fit emblems on cardboard, looks good.
  Tape cardboard to thin sheet of wood, drill holes in wood.
  Test fit emblems on wood.  Notice that all numerals are slightly crooked
        relative to one another.
  Repeat last couple of steps several times, same results.

  It seems the holes have to be dead accurate for perfect alignment.  I'm not 
about to drill the sheetmetal with those kind of results on the wood.

  The GM emblems come with push in rubber grommets, instead of nuts for the 
back side, thus drilling bigger holes and adjusting before tightening down is 
not an option.  It looks like the top pin of each numeral is into the 
seperation of the inner and outer sheet metal, thus you need the grommets on
top at least...      


- -Jeff Easton
Zenith Data Systems

1970 442   4-Speed

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 23:12:14 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip, plus Aurora info

Andrew C. Green wrote:

> I believe the operative phrase at this point would be,
> "AND... THEY'RE OFF!!!"  :-)

You betcha!

> I thought understeer was essentially sliding wide of your turn, 
> oversteer was nosing in too much.

Also you betcha ... as in tight and loose.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 19:26:16 -0300
Subject: Re: Drill Diagrams 

>  I suspect that the factory drilled each car's fenders, etc as it came down 
>the assy line.  Saves on stocking 30 different fenders, etc.

No, I really think the holes were prepunched at some point in the process,
in much the same way that the rivet heads for the molding (we're talking
older cars here, with metal moldings) were attached before painting. When
you're supplying an assembly line, you want as much as possible done before
the part meets the car, and if you have a drilling jig with, say, six bits
in it, that's a lot of sharp thingies to maintain and not break in the 
course of drilling a new fender every 60 seconds or so. On the other hand,
if you can mount those six sharp thingies in a die and punch holes while
you're stamping the panel, the holes will always be oriented exactly right
on the panel and in relation to each other. And even a production run of
some low-quantity item like a 442 trunk lid (needing also holes for a rear
spoiler, perhaps) would involve several thousand pieces, so it won't kill
you to tool up for that. You take your previously-pressed Cutlass trunk
lids and run 'em through one more production step before painting. Let
the body shops worry about drilling the same holes in replacement panels.

Plus, of course, a drilled hole is not the cleanest thing in the world,
and I think you can determine from looking at the old ones on a car whether
they were punched, not drilled, probably prior to painting.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 21:22:31 -0300
Subject: Re: engine swap questions 

In a message dated 96-06-04 12:49:23 EDT, you write:

>I'm putting a 455 in my 81 Cutlass, does anyone know what rate springs I
need
>to
>change to?

Knew a mechanic that did this a few years ago.  He installed Cutlass Diesel
springs.

Paul

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 21:22:33 -0300
Subject: Re: Misc. items 

In a message dated 96-06-04 15:54:53 EDT, you write:

>> I hate to tell you this. It isn't a 4-4-2. 33687 is a Cutlass "S" V-8
>> Holiday Coupe. Are you sure it doesn't say 34487? That would be a 4-4-2.
>
>*BZZZZT* Oh, sorry, incorrect response! Yes, the '68-69 442's >>VIN<< starts
>off
>
>344... but the BODIES were still Cutlasses, Cutlass-S if I amnot mistaken.
>Even
>my glorious W30's are based on that body, and the trim tag says so, and I
>know
>they are factory W30's... -Chris-

I'm not following what you're trying get across here.  Are you saying it is,
or it's not a 442?  Salesman's SPEC book lists a 442 Holiday Coupe as 4487,
Cutlass Supreme Holiday Coupe as 4287 and Cutlass Holiday Coupe as 3687 for
the V8 and 3587 for the L6.  No Cutlass 'S' in '68.  The 3 in front of these
numbers stands for Oldsmobile.  According to that, his 33687 is the Cutlass
Holiday Coupe, right?

In relation to Greg's message which I read after I typed the above paragraph,
the style number on the data plate and the beginning of the VIN have to
match.  A 442 VIN should read 344878X100001: 3 for Oldsmobile, 4487 for 442
Holiday Coupe, 8 for 1968, 'X' would be a letter designating which plant the
car came from and 100001 naturally would be the sequence number of the car.
 If the body plate doesn't say 34487 too, then something sounds wrong.  If
this gentleman's car had a 33687 on the body plate and 336878X100001 as a
VIN, then it should be a Cutlass, not a 442.

Paul

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:58:35 -0300
Subject: Re: '61 F85 FS in NJ $850

Willie Fruean wrote:
> 
> 
> > Just out of curiousity, does anyone have a short list of vehicles equipped
> > with this engine and variants over the years?   It would also be nice to
> > know of the different transmissions/bellhousings which were used, as a help
> > to engine swaps.  
> >
> > Ron Franklin
> >
> >
> > Bowdoin, Maine, USA
> 
> Here it is....
> 
> F-85 1961-63 and the Jetfire in 1963.
> 
> Short enough for you?
> 
> Willie
> '57 Olds Super 88!!!!!!!

Don't forget the 1962 turbocharged Jetfire also.  It became available in 
March of 1962 and over 3000 cars were produced. 

Buick Special & Skylark used a different head version from 1961 to 1963
and they were available for the Tempest in 1961 & 1962 (they're rare 
though).  Rover of the UK bought the engine thereafter and used it in 
their cars as well as a couple of other British Leland products through 
the 60's & 70's.  Examples had 3-speeds, 4-speeds (Borg-Warner I 
believe), a type of Powerglide that went into the Buick & Pontiac, & the 
Slim Jim type in my '62 Jetfire.  They also had 2-barrel & 4-barrel 
carbs (Rochester) for them as well as the huge 1-barrel side-draft on 
the turbo Olds version.

The Buick V6 is a variant and can supply bell housings, water pumps, & 
various other common block parts for it.

Bill Culp

------------------------------

From: "Peg O'Connor" <peg@grove.ufl.EDU>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:28:39 -0300
Subject: Re: Drill Diagrams

>      How can I get an accurate drill diagram for the 442 pin holes?  If the 
>      answer is "nowhere", is there some kind of emblem tape that is 
>      specifically used for this purpose, with a strong adhesive?

There is emblem tape; I used it to put the emblems back on the vinyl top 
after it was redone.  A good paint and body shop will have some; I don't 
remember the brand name of the tape.

------------------------------

From: Dave Voorhis <dave@armchair.mb.ca>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 23:27:43 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip, plus Aurora info 

At 06:47 PM 05/06/96 -0300, you wrote:

>Oh, you had to go there, didn't you.  I'll take any fwd car on in the snow
>with my '72 88 w/ anti-spin.  

[...snip...]

The key is your anti-spin.  Having driven 4x4's, FWD, and RWD extensively on
snow and ice (I live in Manitoba, so I KNOW this stuff), I know there's no
question that a limited slip axle makes a BIG difference.  If I were to rank
traction capabilities, it'd be like this:  (From worst to best)

1. Rear wheel drive, open axle
2. Front wheel drive, open axle
3. Four wheel drive, open axles
4. Rear wheel drive, limited slip
5. Front wheel drive, limited slip (I don't think such a thing is made)
6. Four wheel drive, limited slip rear
7. Four wheel drive, limited slip front and rear

Note that RWD with limited slip beats 4WD and FWD without.

>I was passing 4x4's and semis in the
>outer, snow covered lane (up to 4" in places).  That's either talent or
>stupidity [...]

I know which one, but I ain't saying.

Dave Voorhis, '66 and '67 Toros
dave@armchair.mb.ca
http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 23:45:43 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip, plus Aurora info 

At 23.27 06,05,96 -0300, you wrote:
>At 06:47 PM 05/06/96 -0300, you wrote:
>
>>Oh, you had to go there, didn't you.  I'll take any fwd car on in the snow
>>with my '72 88 w/ anti-spin.  
>
>[...snip...]
>
>The key is your anti-spin.  Having driven 4x4's, FWD, and RWD extensively on
>snow and ice (I live in Manitoba, so I KNOW this stuff), I know there's no
>question that a limited slip axle makes a BIG difference.  If I were to rank
>traction capabilities, it'd be like this:  (From worst to best)
>
>1. Rear wheel drive, open axle
>2. Front wheel drive, open axle
>3. Four wheel drive, open axles
>4. Rear wheel drive, limited slip
>5. Front wheel drive, limited slip (I don't think such a thing is made)
>6. Four wheel drive, limited slip rear
>7. Four wheel drive, limited slip front and rear
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   this is known as All wheel drive...the Bravada didnt even get stuck when
we were in the snow this year...damn good system...
                    zack
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\         "I only kill to know i'm alive"
 *************

------------------------------

From: Dan Williams <dr_olds@kfmw.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:09:08 -0300
Subject: Stuff

> My car has buckets/no console also. My shifter boot is not square but rather
> kind of round/D-shaped and quite large. Sound correct?

Sounds like the correct boot for a 68 to me.  Just check out to see if it looks 
like a factory fit or not. 

> ST  68-33687 LAN198234 BODY

Seems as if there is some confusion on why this doesn't read "344" (I think that 
is the confusion, I've missed some of the mail due to my friendly ISP).  Anyway, 
Chris (I belive) posted that 

  68- the year
     3 Oldsmobile
      36 the basic body style- Cutlass S I believe is the 442 base body
        87 the Sport Coupe- no post, right?

Yes, this is all basically correct, the trim tag does not match the VIN.  
However, the 36 in fact is the designation for a V-8 Cutlass, where a 35 would 
be a V-6 cutlass.  The 87 is the Holiday Coupe (non-post) not the Sport Coupe 
(post - that is 77).  As far as I know, there was no way to tell a Cutlass form 
another cutlass based on the trim info (only engine size).  Don't worry, it is a 
real 442 (unless somebody faked the VIN).  I have never heard of a "bogus" 
oldsmobile, but have seen it a lot in the Ch*vy world.  In fact, a lot of people 
sell things like Z/28, SS VINs.  As a side note, I do happen to have a 68 442 
VIN from a car I parted out.  I didn't take it with the notion to sell, but more 
as a cool trinket type thing.  How many people have a spare 68 442 VIN laying 
around (of course, how many would outside of this list?)

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 23:49:24 -0300
Subject: Re: more and more '68ness 

In a message dated 96-06-05 12:10:22 EDT, you write:

>>>Built 4th week of November, presumably 1967??? didn't a car's production
>run
>from introduction in prev. year to about August of the model year?
>  I could be confused on that point. But pretty sure that "11D" means
>November,
>4th week.

Ok, I went out and looked at the tag on my "72.  Time code is 02C.  I have
the original factory invoice for this car, the date shipped and the execution
date are both 2-18-72, or the third (C) week of February (02).  We know that
02C can't mean the second (02) week of March (C), because the car had already
left the factory be them.  Delivery date the the original owner was 3-14-72.
 So, I guess we've established that the numbers are the month and the letter
denotes the corresponding week.

Nowadays, the factory has "build out" in May.  If you want a car of the
current model year you need to have it on the "preference" list by certain
dates in May.  You can no longer go into a dealer and order a '96.  There is
a brief period called "changover" (like they have a lot of changes to
make...), and then they start production of the '97s which have been on order
since late April of early May.  GM started the practice a few years ago of
shutting down all of their operations (well, almost all of them) in July for
a week (or is it two?).  '97s will start landing at the dealers in August, if
not before.  New car announcement for the past few years at GM has been the
last Thursday in September.  Of course, years ago, build out came later.
 Changeover was really a time when drastic changes where made from one year
to the next.  GM would never have thought about closing up shop for summer
break.  And new car announcement came later in the fall (and was a whole lot
more exciting than it is now!)

Ok let's tackle this body plate thing a little.

>  68- the year

Yes

>     3 Oldsmobile

Yes

>      36 the basic body style- Cutlass S I believe is the 442 base body

No, no Cutlass S for '68.  Just plain Cutlass.  I don't understand the "442
base body" bit.  The body was either a Cutlass, Supreme or 442.  Yes, 442s
were the same body styles as a Cutlass, but they didn't take Cutlass bodies
and add the 442 as an option (again) until '72.  These body style number were
how Olds kept track of production of each model.  It is also what told the
assemblers which trim parts and interiors these cars got.

>        87 the Sport Coupe- no post, right?

No, 87 is not the Sport Coupe, it's the Holiday Coupe.  No, the Sport Coupe
has a post, the Holiday Coupe is the "pillarless" hardtop.  The Sport Coupe
would be a 77 (both in the Cutlass and 442 lines)

>     198234 was the 98,234th body made that year. Should about match the
>VIN's
>idea of how far along it was made, and also match more or less with the
>month/date of production compared to how many were made total that year...
>halfway thru the year, halfway thru the total # produced.

Here's where I am sort of confused.  98000 some odd bodies seem like a high
number for November of '67, which we've already established to be correct.
 There were 59,577 of the 33687 model made for '68.  How can the body number
be higher than production?  I think this is a sequence number of all of the
"A" bodies coming out of the Lansing plant, regardless of body style (?).
 Oldsmobile built over 550,000 cars total for '68.  In '72 they only had 5
plants (Lansing, Arlington TX, Fremont CA, Framingham MA and Linden NJ) and I
think more cars came out of Lansing than anywhere else.  This 98000 figure
could sound about right for roughly 1/2 way thru '68 production.  I think big
cars and Toros had their own body sequence numbers.

I'd be interested to know what the VIN is for this car, as compared to the
body #. 

Paul
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 23:49:25 -0300
Subject: Re: Swap Meet, etc. 

In a message dated 96-06-05 17:07:00 EDT, you write:

>  Not one, but TWO of them...  33677 & 33667 I believe.
>The only 68-9 442's I have seen where the body or trim tag 'style' number
>matches the VIN 1st 3 digits were Canadian built units.

Sorry I'm having such a hard time with this.  I just went out in the garage
and looked at my '67 98.  Both the body tag and VIN tag have 38457 on them.
 I once had a '68 Delta Custom and both tags had 36639.  We've had '66 and
'67 Toros where both numbers had 39687 in them.  This seems to be a pattern,
so I can't understand why they would number the 442 differently.

Paul  

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 23:49:24 -0300
Subject: Re: Paint Job 

In a message dated 96-06-05 12:19:43 EDT, you write:

> I have been getting estimates around 165.00 per side... which in total is
>almost half of the entire paint job and body work combined..

Let's see.  $165 is almost half.  That's $330 total.  Are you sure you want
to do this?  Are you going for that Maaco Supreme special they advertise on
TV?  I'd check around a little, it may pay you to invest more money and have
a better job that last longer if you've decided to keep her.  Remember, you
get what you pay for.  I hate to have you back here next year asking what to
do about the paint and body work on you car.

Paul

------------------------------

From: "G. Douglas Burton" <gdburton@seidata.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 23:51:47 -0300
Subject: Re: 1984 Cutlass V-6 

At 10:30 AM 6/5/96 -0300, you wrote:
>>The bearings are the heart of the oil pressure
>>problems in most cars; they wear out over time, and pressure is lost as a
>>consequence.
>
>Agreed, but wouldn't there be some other noises to go along with the bad
>bearings? All he's reporting is a noisy lifter or three, due presumably
>to the poor pressure in the galleys, but I'd have thunk that he'd also
>be complaining about hammering and knocking noises from lower down if
>bearings were going bad...
>
>Andrew C. Green            

I wondered about the same thing.  The engine is silky smooth with no
noticeable vibrations or noises other than the afore mentioned lifter which
has not occurred again.  And for Charley Buehner, the current mileage on the
car in question is 168K, which I thought I included in the original post.
Sorry if I didn't.


And finally, if that is the sending unit there above the oil pump/filter
casing, wouldn't it be better to have put it somewhere on top of the block
instead.  Wouldn't it be a more accurate indication of oil getting to the
top end.  Seems if the pressure is good there, it should be good most
everywhere else.

Doug

gdburton@seidata.com

------------------------------

From: "Roger M. Borlase" <BORLASE@gordonc.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 00:03:56 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip, plus Aurora info 

>5. Front wheel drive, limited slip (I don't think such a thing is made)

Nissan Altima has it as optional equipment.  A mock up Taurus SHO wagon had it.

Roger Borlase
'72 Cutlass Wagon (open axle)
http://www.cjnetworks.com/olds/noframesreg/borlase.html

------------------------------

From: "Roger M. Borlase" <BORLASE@gordonc.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 00:11:15 -0300
Subject: Re: more and more '68ness 

>     198234 was the 98,234th body made that year. Should about match the
>VIN's
>idea of how far along it was made, and also match more or less with the
>month/date of production compared to how many were made total that year...
>halfway thru the year, halfway thru the total # produced.

That is the plant sequential number, not the x number of the particular model. 
So it was the 98,234th car from some plant for that model year.

Roger Borlase
'72 Cutlass Wagon
http://www.cjnetworks.com/olds/noframesreg/borlase.html

------------------------------

From: "G. Douglas Burton" <gdburton@seidata.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 00:42:34 -0300
Subject: Re: '84 Cutlass V-6 

And just a tad more info to pass along.  The idle of this car is very low
when in drive.  Haven't actually measured it, but I would say no more than
400-500 rpm just from listening.  The light hasn't ever came on while the
car was in park or neutral at all.  At worst before changing the oil, it
stayed on for about 10-15 seconds while driving around the block.  Hasn't
done that since.  Actually I would have to say that the situation continues
to improve.  The light now goes out as soon as the engine is started both
while hot and cold.  If I can get the damn pressure gauge hooked up I will
definitely feel better about driving it like this.  Thanks to all who replied...

Doug

gdburton@seidata.com

------------------------------

From: Aaron Neumann <neumann.12@osu.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 00:42:50 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip, plus Aurora info 

At 06:46 PM 6/5/96 -0300, you wrote:
>>NO, I DIDN'T.  
>>BEFORE YOU START TAKING ME TO TASK, PLEASE KEEP YOUR POSTS STRAIGHT.  
>>THE FOLLOWING WAS WRITTEN BY MIKE BLENNERHASSETT, NOT ME:
>
>I believe the operative phrase at this point would be,
>"AND... THEY'RE OFF!!!"  :-)
>
>>> but when I make a turn and I start understeering, then I just power on 
>>> out of it with a little throttle.
>
>Um, help me out with this one. You're in a RWD car, you're understeering,
>and you want to add _more_ power? 

In many cases, yes.  By adding more power to the rear wheels, you decrease
their lateral traction and they begin to slide sideways, rotating the car to
the desired direction.  Once your facing the right way, a careful balance of
steering and throttle control will regain the lost traction and you can
accelerate out of the turn.  This is called power-on oversteer.  

I thought understeer was essentially
>sliding wide of your turn, oversteer was nosing in too much.

Correct.  Oversteer is the faster way around a corner, and therefore favored
in racing. That's why if your understeering in a turn with rwd, get on the
power and turn that understeer into oversteer.  On the road however, this is
risky business, as you're at the edge of adhesion to the road and mistakes
are costly!  

- -Aaron.

 _____
|  |  |* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
|  |  | "..saw a Deadhead sticker on a Cadillac, a little voice inside     *
|  |  |  my head said don't look back...you can never look back..."        *
| /|\ |Aaron Neumann  Akron, OH neumann.12@osu.edu 75213.656@compuserve.com*
|/_|_\|* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *	

------------------------------

From: Aaron Neumann <neumann.12@osu.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 00:42:43 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip, plus Aurora info 

At 10:33 PM 6/5/96 -0300, you wrote:
>Aaron Neumann wrote:
>> 
>> At 04:10 PM 6/5/96 -0300, you wrote:
>> >
>> >On Wed, 5 Jun 1996, Mike Frederick wrote:
>
>
>NO, I DIDN'T.  
>BEFORE YOU START TAKING ME TO TASK, PLEASE KEEP YOUR POSTS STRAIGHT.  
>THE FOLLOWING WAS WRITTEN BY MIKE BLENNERHASSETT, NOT ME:

Sorry 'bout that, don't know how it happened...but you don't have to yell!

>
>
>> >Yo!  I've been called forward, but not fwd.  And I'm not overweight. So I'm
>> >mad.  Get some snow on those roads and let's see whose the boss.
>> >
>> >Michael and a real 1966 technological innovation.
>> >
>
>
>> I'll take any fwd car on in the snow with my '72 88 w/ anti-spin.  You 
>> see, there's only so much traction available to a tire, and when the 
>> same tire has to provide  power and directional control, you sacrifice 
>> each.
>
>Uhh, if you say so.

It's just physics...

>
>> Thus, when you make a turn in the snow, and you start understeering, 
>> you don't have much control, 
>
>Gee, all those years in Pennsylvania and I never realised that.
>
>> but when I make a turn and I start understeering, then I just power on 
>> out of it with a little throttle.  
>
>Power through the turn?  Guess you can't do that with a Toro, huh?

Powering through an understeering turn with fwd will only get you more
understeer unless your suspension is set up really really loose in the
rear...only in light fwd race cars like Minis, etc. is this usually the
case.  By increasing power to the front tires, your transferring part of a
limited supply of traction to getting power to the road and from directional
control, thus only increasing understeer.  The only thing one can do to
counter harsh understeer in a fwd car is to brake hoping that the weight
transfer will increase the normal force from the road to the tires, thus
increasing the friction force and therefore traction; but in snow, this
usually doesn't work, you just keep sliding.  Another possibility is to jam
on the parking brake, decreasing the back tire(s) traction and causing the
car to rotate to the desired direction, release it, and then power out.
 

>
>> Now, let's clear things up.  I love Toro's.  They're a masterpiece of 
>> form and function. But that's about it when it comes to fwd cars out 
>> there that I like...with a few exceptions.  No hard feelings.
>
>If I ever decide to return to the cold, dark north some winter, I'll take 
>you up on your offer.

OK.
>
>
>The 66 Toro and Mike          <----- SEE!  THIS IS ME!
>
>
>-- 
>Michael R. Frederick, CEO
>Edison3, Incorporated
>Tampa, Florida
>(813) 210-8649
>
>
>
>

 _____
|  |  |* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
|  |  | "..saw a Deadhead sticker on a Cadillac, a little voice inside     *
|  |  |  my head said don't look back...you can never look back..."        *
| /|\ |Aaron Neumann  Akron, OH neumann.12@osu.edu 75213.656@compuserve.com*
|/_|_\|* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *	

------------------------------

From: ngomez@iadfw.net (Nick Gomez)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 00:18:43 -0300
Subject: Lots Of Stuff 

Some Olds for sale in Dallas/Fort Worth...

- -1983 H/O, 47k miles, showroom, must see - $7500, 214-327-7994, 214-235-2226
- -1966 Toronado, 89k miles, maroon in/out, $6000 restoration - $3500,
817-267-2116
- -1972 Cutlass, ht, one owner, low miles - 214-341-6907
- -1972 98, 455, mint, low miles - $2750, 817-241-2889
- -1968 Cutlass, convertible, red/white, 350 - $7000, 214-263-0629
- -1968 Toronado - $1650, 214-416-0164
- -1964 Cutlass, 2 door, hardtop - $1750, 817-586-1989
- -1963 Starfire, restored, everything new, show car - $7000, 214-270-3524
- -1963 Cutlass F85, convertible - $3800, 214-438-2668, 214-616-1784
- -1975 Delta 88, convertible - $1000, 214-319-7444

Quick question...what's the deal with HEI? A guy at the parts yard was
telling me how I could drop a HEI 'unit' from a later model car into my
car. I didn't have time to talk shop then. I don't really understand the
procedure/benefits, is it covered in the FAQ? If not, where might I find
some info. Thanks!
BeaTniK

     ------------------------------------------------------------------
     1965 Oldsmobile 98 Town Sedan   TIP # 1048   I Trade Live Concerts
     Always Buying Nirvana Items   MiSTie # 53344       Keep On Skankin
     ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: jrjet@whidbey.net (Dot & Tim McChesney)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 02:35:47 -0300
Subject: Re: 442 vs Cutlass 

>     Hello Todd

Several books out there here are a couple of books I have

Oldsmobile 442& W-MACHINE RESTORATION GUIDE   author T. PATRICK SULLIVAN
from MOTOR BOOK INTERNATIONAL

OLDSMOBILE MUSCLE CARS 1964-1971  from BROOKLAND BOOKS
This is mostly articals from the magazines of the years they where made.

Tim
P.S. should have mentioned these earlier sorry.

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 02:41:06 -0300
Subject: Learn to drive FWD  Was: My trip, plus Aurora info 

In a message dated 96-06-05 23:48:48 EDT, you write:

>Powering through an understeering turn with fwd will only get you more
>understeer unless your suspension is set up really really loose in the
>rear.

Aaron, (and to all who do FWD)

I have been driving Toronados since 1971 and nothing else since (thats a lot
of seat time folks!). I have encountered every possible situation including
wrecking one badly (I have since tempered my driving but still manage push
the envelope occasionally).

I'm an older guy, so I will refer to push and loose rather than oversteer and
understeer. 

First of all, the banter that Toronados have a pronounced push is garbage!
Yes, they can push, but its the fault of the driver, not the car. No more
than a conventional drive car is loose! In fact, I will go as far as to say
that a Toronado has less push than a RWD is loose (if you will allow me to
make that comparison). Now before you start shaking your heads and mumbling
to yourself that I'm full of it, let me explain.

Mike F. and Aaron are both right (but only half way each). The trick (if not
an absolute requirement) is to LEFT FOOT BRAKE!!!!! This is the only way to
always keep your FWD car under control......PERIOD!!!  End of discussion. No
rebuttal!

When I come into a turn too hot (reguardless if it is excess speed, marbles,
snow, water, sand, gravel..et al.), I feel the push right away as the wheel
loses its normal tension. Without batting and eye (or increasing my heart
rate one beat, I do three things out of pure reaction). 

#1  I don't soil my underwear (as I know I am driving a Sherman Tank and will
win!)

#2 Back off on the loud pedal (for a very brief period......scant seconds )
and turn the car AWAY from the push. At the same time apply brake with LEFT
FOOT (but very gently). With foot on brake, apply power as you get your line
back on the turn.

#3 As the car hits its heading towards its intended (safe line) through the
turn, apply MORE power to snap the back end in line (tow). If excess back end
waggle occurs, apply more power (PUNCH IT) while keeping the brakes on (but
NOT enough to lock them up!!!)  The car will straighten out like an arrow!

These proceedures will only vary with intensity as different conditions are
encountered. The bottom line is that at one point (if not two or more) in
time, you have the gas AND the brake on at once to counteract the opposing
forces.

>Another possibility is to jam on the parking brake, decreasing the back
tire(s) traction >and causing the car to rotate to the desired direction,
release it, and then power out.

NOPE!!!!

DO NOT USE THE EMERGENCY BRAKE!!!!!! For many reasons......

1. They are basically unrealiable as a braking source.
2. You cannot control (as much) the degree of braking.
3. It takes one hand off the steering wheel to release.
4. It moves your left foot off the brake where it belongs!
5. Things are happening WAY too fast to be screwing around trying to find the
ratchet        pedal.
6. It may not release.

Now, for the advanced drivers, I will be glad to explain the use of
downshifting in a later session, if anyone is interested.

Greg K. 

 

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 06:20:08 -0300
Subject: Re: more and more '68ness

On Wed, 5 Jun 1996 PHartlieb@aol.com wrote:
> No, no Cutlass S for '68.  Just plain Cutlass.  I don't understand the "442
> base body" bit.  The body was either a Cutlass, Supreme or 442.  Yes, 442s
> were the same body styles as a Cutlass, but they didn't take Cutlass bodies
> and add the 442 as an option (again) until '72.  These body style number were
> how Olds kept track of production of each model.  It is also what told the
> assemblers which trim parts and interiors these cars got.

Actually this is slightly incorrect although I agree with the rest of
Paul's info. There was a Cutlass 'S' in '68 - I know because I own one. 
But the series wasn't listed as a separate model in the books, the choices
were only F-85, Cutlass, Supreme, and 4-4-2. The more this gets discussed,
the less sense the thing makes. No "S" series on the books even though
they exist; 4-4-2 series exists but not used in the trim tag codes.
Strange. 

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: madmat@ix.netcom.com (Matthew Y.Hayashibara)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:41:03 -0300
Subject: Re: Mechanic's Glossary

Horrors! This article is mis-attributed (or at least "un-attributed")...
it's a portion of one of Peter Egan's "Miscellaneous Ramblings" Columns from
Road&&Track magazine, from last year... I recall reading it and noting how
much it paralled my experiences maintaining my '74 BMW 2002!

"MadMat" Hayashibara

>
>
>----- Begin Included Message -----
>
>>From oldsmobile-owner@ccn.cs.dal.ca Wed Jun  5 14:56 EDT 1996
>Date: 	Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:46:41 -0300
>From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
>Organization: EDIson3, Inc.
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I)
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>To: oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
>Subject: Mechanic's Glossary
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Sender: oldsmobile-owner@ccn.cs.dal.ca
>Reply-To: oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
>
>I thought y'all might enjoy Kristin Brown's post from the Fordnatics:
<snip>

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:46:52 -0300
Subject: RE: Paint Job

No, its not a Maaco job, it is someone I know well.

- ----------
From: 	PHartlieb@aol.com[SMTP:PHartlieb@aol.com]
Sent: 	Wednesday, June 05, 1996 10:49 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Re: Paint Job

In a message dated 96-06-05 12:19:43 EDT, you write:

> I have been getting estimates around 165.00 per side... which in total is
>almost half of the entire paint job and body work combined..

Let's see.  $165 is almost half.  That's $330 total.  Are you sure you want
to do this?  Are you going for that Maaco Supreme special they advertise on
TV?  I'd check around a little, it may pay you to invest more money and have
a better job that last longer if you've decided to keep her.  Remember, you
get what you pay for.  I hate to have you back here next year asking what to
do about the paint and body work on you car.

Paul

------------------------------

From: Mike Coccagna <mikec@pop.kis.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:01:12 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip, plus Aurora info

Dave Voorhis wrote a listing of his traction preferences:

> 1. Rear wheel drive, open axle
> 2. Front wheel drive, open axle
> 3. Four wheel drive, open axles
> 4. Rear wheel drive, limited slip
> 5. Front wheel drive, limited slip (I don't think such a thing is made)
> 6. Four wheel drive, limited slip rear 
>7. Four wheel drive, limited slip front and rear

Bzzzzzzz.  You're wrong!  As an example, I present the Quad442 (W-41 
in particular).  Limited slip diffs came standard on the W-41s (I'm 
not sure about my W-40).  You can also buy limited slip diffs from 
the dealer to retrofit your FWD Calais.

Sorry,

Mike
'91 W-40 Quad442

------------------------------

From: Scott David Ballentine <sb7k+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:04:31 -0300
Subject: Re: Drill Diagrams 

Excerpts from oldsmail: 5-Jun-96 Re: Drill Diagrams by "Peg
O'Connor"@grove.ufl 
> There is emblem tape; I used it to put the emblems back on the vinyl top 
> after it was redone.  A good paint and body shop will have some; I don't 
> remember the brand name of the tape.

I borrowed some off of a friend of mine about 2 years ago to stick a
trunk emblem back on my Cutlass.  I think it was 3M.  Must be OK stuff,
because it's still on there.

- -Scott Ballentine
 sb7k@andrew.cmu.edu
 Carnegie Mellon University
 School of Computer Science

------------------------------

From: "Meyer I. Stolberg" <mas@cci.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:29:24 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip, plus Aurora info

On Jun 5, 11:27pm, Dave Voorhis wrote:
>
> The key is your anti-spin.  Having driven 4x4's, FWD, and RWD extensively on
> snow and ice (I live in Manitoba, so I KNOW this stuff), I know there's no
> question that a limited slip axle makes a BIG difference.
[..snip..]
> 5. Front wheel drive, limited slip (I don't think such a thing is made)

My fellow Oldsmofriends, the revered Oldsmobile deity hast produced a FWD
creation with a limited slip differential.  It has dubbed this prince among men
with a noble moniker, the 1991 Cutlass Calais Quad 442 W-41.  When the royal
family switched from the Calais platform to the Achieva platform, the SCX (the
new name for the W-41 package) also retained this limited slip to further the
bloodline.

I can only verify that the limited slip only comes on in the rain.  In snowy
and icy upstate New York, my princely Olds is exiled to the garage with limited
visits to the driveway from mid-November to May.

I have a C-word K1500 pickup with limited slip and 4WD.  The shop manuals says
the limited slip will only operate at 20 mph and lower.  My Calais usually
activates the limited slip at a complete stop in the rain with the rpms from
anywhere between 2000 and 4000 rpm.

Meyer
no fancy .signature file

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:11:45 -0300
Subject: Re: Learn to drive FWD

Toronado66@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Mike F. and Aaron are both right (but only half way each).

???  I don't remember really stating anything.

> The trick (if not an absolute requirement) is to LEFT FOOT BRAKE!!!!! 
> This is the only way to always keep your FWD car under control 
> ......PERIOD!!!  End of discussion. No rebuttal!

Oh.      :o

> With foot on brake, apply power as you get your line back on the turn.
> ... apply MORE power to snap the back end in line (tow).  If excess 
> back end waggle occurs, apply more power (PUNCH IT) while keeping the 
> brakes on (but NOT enough to lock them up!!!)

Hmmm.  And you wouldn't consider this powering though the turn?  

As another 70something driver (bought the first one in 71), I rarely 
braked IN a turn but before entering it.  Then I'd apply power as 
I entered the turn, setting the car, and applying more power on exiting. 
This done many, many times on the un-speed-limited roads of Germany (and 
a few US back-roads).

> Another possibility is to jam on the parking brake, decreasing the back
> tire(s) traction and causing the car to rotate to the desired 
> direction, release it, and then power out.

I'm not sure I can agree with you here that decreasing traction is ever a 
good idea.

Another posibility (with nod to Aaron) is tires and suspension.  
Decreasing the front ride height will lower the front's center of gravity 
while increasing the rear ride height with raise the rear's COG.  Also 
raising the front tire pressure while lowering the rear tire's pressure 
will increase the tendency of the rear to roll and will compensate, to 
some degree, for the Toro's push.
 
We should also keep in mind that a Toronado is not your usual FWD car.  
Monster motors and monster tires kind of make it a different breed than 
the "Sons of the Rice Burners" that we see today.  Most of these guys 
have very little power reserve at speed as compared to the Toro.  

A related example of this is the difficulty NASCAR drivers have when they 
get loose on a superspeedway vs a short track.  The restrictor plates 
used on the big tracks limit power so there isn't any punch left while 
they have MUCH more reserve power without the plate and at the lower 
speeds of the short track.

I have never had an situation where pointing the Big Wheels in the right 
direction and heavy on the loud-pedal didn't get me through a turn.


AND... WE'RE OFF!

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:23:41 -0300
Subject: Re: Swap Meet, etc.

> From: Chris Brown Witt <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>

> Hey, it happened to me, too. I had a battery poop out right after I bought it.
> I kept figuring it COULDN'T be the new battery, right, changed alternator,
> VReg, alternator, VReg, swapped entire Alt/VR/Wiring system from a known
> working car into the truck [Olds powered Chevy truck], STILL no workee. Took
> battery back to Sears for testing... Yep, it's bad, you used 6 months of a 36
> month battery, so...
>   Uh, excuse me, I used *2* months of a *60* month battery...
>   No, you have a 36-mo unit, 6 mo old...
>   Show me...
> They had mine confused with somebody else's, though mine was bad too.
> 
> It's a bell curve death rate kinda thing, statistics, ya know, 1% of them die
> in the first month, 1% go for 10 years, most die at about 3-5 years of life.
> Don't condemn the brand for that... -Chris-
> 

Good idea!  Will pull the battery & take it to the local Roe & Sawbuck...
its the easiest thing to do, so I should do it first.  Thanks, Chris!

And no, this won't cause me to condemn the brand if'n it turns out to be 
the Die-Hard... whenever I've replaced a battery with a *New* one, it's
*always* been a Die-Hard... if I plan on keepin' the car, that is! :)



Tim Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'88 Cadillac Brougham, a.k.a. 'Big Blue' -- Olds 307 Powered!!
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:21:24 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip, plus Aurora info

Meyer I. Stolberg wrote:
> 
> Meyer
> no fancy .signature file       <--- I LIKE THAT!

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:04:05 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip, plus Aurora info

Aaron Neumann wrote:
> 
> Sorry 'bout that, don't know how it happened...but you don't have to 
> yell!

Ok.

> I'll take any fwd car on in the snow with my '72 88 w/ anti-spin.  You
> see, there's only so much traction available to a tire, and when the
> same tire has to provide  power and directional control, you sacrifice
> each.

> It's just physics...

Well, if we talking physics, we can't overlook the fact that traction on 
snow is just about non-existant.  On snow, the TREAD pattern is the most 
significant variable here, not surface friction.  Why do you think snow 
tires have those chucky treads as opposed to summer tires?  Dirt track 
racers refer to this as the "ratchet effect".  The tread of the tires, in 
this case the "hard" surface", cut into the track's soft surface and it 
is the tread pattern that provides the majority of the traction through 
the ratchet effect.  Kind of like a rack and pinion.

However, the same car, if raced on a paved track, will use treadless 
"slicks" with no pattern.  The tire now becomes the soft surface and the 
track the hard surface.  And your classical "traction" physics comes into 
play.  Coefficients of friction and all that.  The two situations are not 
interchangable.

So, I disagree with you analysis since it appears that you are applying 
hard surface physics to a soft surface (snow).

> Powering through an understeering turn with fwd will only get you more
> understeer unless your suspension is set up really really loose in the
> rear.

I can accept that.

> ..only in light fwd race cars like Minis, etc. is this usually the
> case.  

As opposed to what HEAVY fwd race car?

> By increasing power to the front tires, your transferring part 
> of a limited supply of traction to getting power to the road and from 
> directional control, thus only increasing understeer.  

All things being equal, you right.  However, they're not equal.  There is 
a considerable difference in the AVAILABLE traction in a front engine, 
front wheel drive car vs a front engine, REAR wheel drive car.

> The only thing one can do to counter harsh understeer in a fwd car is 
> to brake hoping that the weight transfer will increase the normal 
> force from the road to the tires, thus increasing the friction force 
> and therefore traction; 

I don't agree that this is the only option.

> ...but in snow, this usually doesn't work, you just keep sliding.

Back to the ratchet effect.

> Another possibility is to jam on the parking brake, decreasing the back 
> tire(s) traction and causing the car to rotate to the desired 
> direction, release it, and then power out.

I didn't agree with Greg Kalkhoff on this either.

> Now, let's clear things up.  I love Toro's.  They're a masterpiece of
> form and function. But that's about it when it comes to fwd cars out
> there that I like...with a few exceptions.  No hard feelings.

Whew!  Glad to hear that.  And I agree with the short list of fwd cars.

...and never any hard feelings.       ;)


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:13:10 -0300
Subject: [Fwd: Disc brakes warped?]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Rocket-heads:

I though that this was interesting after the Fordnatics pretty much said 
we were full of crap Re: Warped Rotors.  

I also think it's interesting that no one on the Fordnatics list has 
replied to this post.  Must be a Ford secret.   Shhhhhh.....


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

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From: "Marco L Rivera, Computer Specialist, Lawrence, KS "<mlrivera@usgs.gov>
Subject: Disc brakes warped?
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 13:02:23 -0500
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I have a 1994 Mustang GT with 30K miles and seem to have a problem with my
disc brakes warping.  Whenever I let off the gas, the rear-end of my Mustang
starts to vibrate slightly, then when I apply the brakes I really feel a
strong vibration from the rear and then brake pedal, and steering shimmey.
The vibration is not real consistent...sometimes it vibrates, sometimes it
doesn't, sometimes it is a really hard vibration, sometimes it is not so hard.
Is this consistent with warped disc brakes?  I have already had all four
rotors turned and the problem went away for awhile, but has returned and is
even worse!  I thought that I might have had a tire problem in conjunction
with a braking problem, so I purchased a set of new rims and 245/50ZR16 tires
(a slightly wider tire while keeping the original diameter) in hopes of also
improving traction.  Well, all that seemed to do was compound my problems, now
I also get a slight steering wheel shimmey/front-end vibration whenever I am
accelerating between 35-55mph, but this only happens whenever I first drive my
car in the morning after it has been sitting in the garage overnight.  After I
drive the car for a few miles this vibration seems to go away.  The tires
otherwise run smooth and are great at high speeds.  I have taken the tires to
be rebalanced numerous times, but have had no change.

Ok.  So does it sound like I have warped disc brakes?  What is causing them to
warp?  There doesn't appear to be any mechanical failures?  I don't think
resurfacing the discs will do any good, they will just warp again, right?
Maybe the discs are already too thin?  I am looking into replacement rotors
and pads.  Any ideas on what to look for?  Will cross-drilled rotors provide
any benefit?  Rotors seem to be expensive and I would like to contain the
costs as best as possible.  Also, I do not want to do any brake modifications,
just simply replace the old rotors and pads with new ones.  I think I can
handle this?  I am at a loss and really don't have much expertise, so any
advice would be greatly appreciated.

- --Marco


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End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #196
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