
oldsmobile-digest          Saturday, 25 May 1996       Volume 01 : Number 185


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 15:27:29 -0300
Subject: Re: Metallic Brake Pads

Another message from the Fordnatics:

Scott Griffith, Sun Microsystems Lumpyware wrote:
 
On May 23, Mike Frederick wrote:
 
> My friends on the Oldsmobile list (don't get excited, they don't like
> Chevys either) has been discussing metallic brake pads.  Anyone care 
> to comment?
>
> > About the brakes:  Fords are having trouble with the metallic brake
> > pads and do best with the composition types because they are 
> > warping the rotors all over the place from the heat of the metallic 
> > ones. 
What heat? Brakes convert kinetic energy into heat. That's their job.
Stopping a car from 100mph in 8 seconds will dissipate exactly the
same amount of heat energy in the brake system, *regardless* of what
the pad materials are. It's true that there are tiny, subtle
differences in the amount of heat dissipated by the pads ablating away
(race pads will ablate more, so that they can live longer at higher
heat fluxes), but for all intents and purposes the amount of heat
dissipated by the whole system in stopping the car at a given rate is
*exactly the same*.

Claims of higher operating temperatures somehow being the fault of the
pads just don't wash. If the same heat energy per stop goes into the
rotors regardless of pad material, where's the beef? The difference is
that the better pad materials resist fade, have a higher Cf, and
generate useable friction up to higher temperatures. So what typically
happens is that the driver *uses* the brakes harder, dumping yet more
heat into them, since they haven't faded yet. If the rotor
temperatures end up being higher in use, it is simply and only because
the brakes are being used harder. Which, of course, is the natural way
of things- if they work well, why not use them?  In any case, this
goes on until you discover the next weak link in the chain, which is
inevitably the rotors themselves.

The real problem here is the rotor, not the pad material. Covering up
a poor rotor design by using a poor pad material, one that that
doesn't work well enough to encourage proper use of the brakes,
strikes me as being the *wrong* optimization... Fixing the rotors, by
using an alternate design, or obtaining aftermarket castings that have
better quality control, is the way to go. I could tell you _volumes_
of info on how hard it is to make stock Ford castings live in severe
use- but everybody here's already heard it 40 or 50 times, so I'll
shut up.

There is one issue with the really high-performance road racing pads
that does bear mentioning, though. The higher the performance of the
pad when it is hot (1000degF and up), the higher the rate of rotor
wear if you run the pads cold, like in street driving. Many, if not
most, race pads will eat rotors like candy when run at dead-cold
street driving temps. They'll wear flat and true, but they'll wear
_fast_. Race pad materials are very abrtasive in order to achieve
those high Cf values when hot. That's why most of us trackies change
back to street pads after our events. Semimetallic and the newer
carbon-metallic street pads are very kind to the rotors. Real race
pads (carkon-kevlar like the Porterfield R4, Performance Friction CM80
or 83, and so on) are much less so.

Ahh, the good old "metallic pads make too much heat" topic again. This
is one of those wonderfully recurrent topics, like water versus
coolant, ATF in the T-5, synthetic oils, 160degF thermostats, and
opening the hood at the base of the windshield in an attempt to
"improve cooling". They come, they go...

> BTW: They are also having a heated debate (pun intended) on coolant 
> vs water. 
See? Told ya so.
 
Pure water (or water with a small concentration of surfactants to
control film boiling) run at higher than stock pressure is the optimal
soution for maximum cooling system efficiency. The presence of high
concentrations of glycol in the coolant simply reduces the ability of
the mixture to conduct heat, which is a greater negative than the
small positive effect of the higher boiling point it provides.  Racing
engines are run with water with an absolute minimum of impurities in
the cooling systems, not with glycol (for several reasons, with safety
ranking right behind efficiency- glycol is slick, when it gets puked
onto your tires).

The stuff truly is _antifreeze_. For cooling, it's just not your
friend.

Oh, well. The Oldsmobile folks aren't gonna listen to us, any more
than we listen to ourselves. But these are both topics that have
been hashed to death many times here...

- -skod

- --
Scott Griffith, Sun Microsystems Lumpyware
Nor Cal SAAC/Green Flag Driving Association driving instructor
(and driver, of anything that turns both right and left,
and can pass tech...) Return Path : skod@sun.COM


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 11:28:28 -0300
Subject: Did you see... 

Last night's edition of "Before They Were Stars", that show that comes
up with clips of old movies, commercials, etc., made by now-famous
celebrities while they were on the way up? They had a black-and-white
TV car commercial featuring Florence "Brady Bunch" Henderson, and the
car was... a 1958 Olds 88. What a battleship that car was!

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 15:37:45 -0300
Subject: Re: Too much

LMEIDT@aol.com wrote:
> 
> How do I get out of this list .  To much e-mail to handle, Although I 
> like the information.

Cut the phone line.  We got you now, pal.     ;)

Greg Beaulieu:

How about a post on the digest format. A couple of poeople have mentioned 
that we're too chatty.  Maybe they would prefer that form?

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Bruce D. Brumm" <bdbrumm@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 15:21:13 -0300
Subject: G-Body T-Tops...

Besides the dealership, does anybody know of a good source for ALL the
rubber gaskets used in the G-body T-tops (including front-top of 
windshield, t-top glass to body, and rear-top)?  My tops are kinda leaky,
and I have decided to replace ALL gaskets, etc. to restore good seal and
eliminate the "hurricane" sound at highway speeds.

Great weather in the Detroit, MI area today!  The tops are definitely
coming out!  Enjoy the Memorial Day Weekend!
- -- 

Bruce D. Brumm (bdbrumm@ix.netcom.com)
Network & Systems Administrator
LDM Technologies, Inc.
Troy, MI

'84 Cutlass Supreme 307-Y
'86 Cutlass Salon 307-Y

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 12:48:46 -0300
Subject: Re: Did you see... 

In a message dated 96-05-24 11:36:54 EDT, you write:

> Florence "Brady Bunch" Henderson, and the
>car was... a 1958 Olds 88. What a battleship that car was!

Brady Bunch:

If you look close, after the opening credits, there is a long shot of the
Brady House, and a 1966 Toronado drives down the street! I never watched the
show much, but I always watched the beginning to see my car!  LOL

Greg K.

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 13:31:52 -0300
Subject: RE Olds Museum 

Too All,

Great news (however short notice)! Our plans this weekend WILL include a trip
the Olds Museum.

If anyone would like me to snap a picture of a particular car, let me know. I
have plenty of film and can click away at will. 

However, you need to get back to me by 5:30 PM CST TODAY, as we leave about
6:00PM local time. At that time I will download mail for final time today.
After that, I will not have access to a computer (unless I stop at Computer
Store in Detroit and ask for a demo of AOL and sneak DL my E-mail) he he he!

Any and all requests will be concidered!

Greg Kalkhoff

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 14:07:37 -0300
Subject: Re: Too much

On Fri, 24 May 1996, Mike Frederick wrote:
> LMEIDT@aol.com wrote:
> > How do I get out of this list .  To much e-mail to handle, Although I 
> > like the information.
> Greg Beaulieu:
> How about a post on the digest format. A couple of poeople have mentioned 
> that we're too chatty.  Maybe they would prefer that form?

<bad attitude mode on>

Geez, folks, I don't mean to be cranky but I don't know how many times I 
gotta tell ya this...

It's in the welcome message. It's in the FAQ too. If you don't read them 
it isn't my fault!!!

:-)
<bad attitude mode off>

OK, I'm gonna post it one more time:

Membership Management:

Individuals can subscribe and unsubscribe from the Oldsmobile list directly. All
membership requests are to be sent to majordomo and not the list itself.

Send subscribe or unsubscribe requests to:

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Include one of the following as the only text in the body of the message:

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Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 14:09:54 -0300
Subject: Re: Cam number

On Thu, 23 May 1996, Fernando Proietto wrote:
> 	Roger I'd like to know the specs on the 350 engines. Especially the OAI, HI PERF or 
> the W-31. Want to match it up against Modello's JM16-18 cam. Can you put a table together to 
> show us the specs?

I posted this table about a month ago. I'll post it again if anyone else 
wants it. Otherwise I'll just email it to Fernando.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Roger Heath <RHEATH@worldbank.org>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 13:58:06 -0300
Subject: Re: Cam number

          Fernando,
         =20
          For 1970 models:
          Part#=09=09Overlap =B0Duration, =B0=09
          =09=09=09Inlet=09Exhaust
         =20
          393859=0958=09286=09286
          400084=0936=09250=09264
          400117=0944=09258=09272
          400165=0957=09285=09287
          402486=0948=09262=09274
          402569=09108=09328=09328
          406768=0968=09294=09296
          402194=0982=09308=09308
         =20
          Part#=09=09Lift, inches=09Engine
          =09=09Inlet=09Exhaust=09
          =09=09=09
          393859=090.472=090.472=09350
          400084=090.400=090.400=09350
          400117=090.435=090.435=09455
          400165=090.472=090.472=09455
          402486=090.440=090.440=09455
          402569=090.475=090.475=09455
          406768=090.472=090.472=09455
          402194=090.474=090.474=09350
         =20
          Part#=09=09Application=09=09
          =09=09=09
          =09=09=09
          393859=094 BC ex: TH, OAI, Hi Perf =09=09
          400084=092 BC, 4BC TH=09=09
          400117=09ex: Toro., Pol.=09=09
          400165=094257, 67(Cutlas Supreme) 4400 TH, Toro., W-34=09  =
=20
          402486=09Toro. ex W-34=09=09
          402569=094400 ST OAI (W-30)=09
          406768=094400 ST ex OAI=09
          402194=09OAI (W-31)
         =20
          Roger Heath 71 Delta 88 Convertible=09
         =20
         =20

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 14:19:38 -0300
Subject: Re: Heater Noise 

I need somebody to clear something up for me on this. As far as I'm aware 
I've never owned a car that had vacuum operated heater controls. I've 
also never owned a car that has a/c so that masy have something to do 
with it. Anyhow, the question I have is this: when you guys talk about a 
heater control valve, are you referring to:

a) a vacuum valve that controls airflow within the heater/defroster 
assembly, or;

b) a hot-water valve that allows heat to reach the heater core?

I admit to never having seen (b) above. I always thought that most car 
heaters worked on the principle of always having coolant in the heater 
core, with air temperature in the heater/defroster determined by air 
doors that allowed or restricted the airflow across the core and thereby 
controlled the interior temperature. 

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 13:13:47 -0300
Subject: Re: Too much 

>Send subscribe or unsubscribe requests to:
>
>majordomo@ccn.cs.dal.ca
>
>Include one of the following as the only text in the body of the message:
[...]
>unsubscribe oldsmobile
>unsubscribe oldsmobile-digest

(Replying to this list-wide 'cause I'm hoping someone can either back me
up or correct me on this:)

In the headers of the messages as they're distributed are various fields
such as "Return-Path:", "Sender:", "Reply-To:", etc. Isn't there syntax
for adding extra "fake" fields which can contain comments such as the
unsubscribe info above? I'm thinking here of those I've seen elsewhere
which start with "X-", so you could, for example, have a field that says
"X-Unsubscribe: 'unsubscribe oldsmobile-digest' to majordomo@ccn.cs.dal.ca"
or something like that?

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 13:25:55 -0300
Subject: Re: Heater Noise  

>I need somebody to clear something up for me on this. As far as I'm aware 
>I've never owned a car that had vacuum operated heater controls. I've 
>also never owned a car that has a/c so that masy have something to do 
>with it.

Right, (on the older cars, at least) if you didn't have A/C, your heater
controls were operated manually using Bowden cables, without vacuum assist.
With A/C came a lot of more-complicated ductwork and servo motors which
operate on manifold vacuum, which gives you that classic slow operation
and wheezing noises from the dash.

>Anyhow, the question I have is this: when you guys talk about a 
>heater control valve, are you referring to:
>
>a) a vacuum valve that controls airflow within the heater/defroster 
>assembly, or;

Not usually, no. There _are_ doors that are operated by vacuum, but
those are driven off the control panel's selector switch and aren't
really valves per se.

>b) a hot-water valve that allows heat to reach the heater core?

Yup.

>I admit to never having seen (b) above. I always thought that most car 
>heaters worked on the principle of always having coolant in the heater 
>core, with air temperature in the heater/defroster determined by air 
>doors that allowed or restricted the airflow across the core and thereby 
>controlled the interior temperature. 

No, it's both an in-line valve and air doors. Depending on the car, the
valve may be mounted on the firewall/heater-core outlets; completely
in-line in the inlet heater hose and suspended by it (e.g. my '82 Cutlass); 
or mounted on the engine block with the inlet heater hose attached to it
(e.g. my '76 Cutlass). In any event, when vacuum is applied, the valve
will open. In some cases I suppose they might rig it to _close_ at that
point... whatever the design calls for...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 14:42:15 -0300
Subject: Re: Heater Noise 

On Fri, 24 May 1996, Andrew C. Green wrote:
> No, it's both an in-line valve and air doors. Depending on the car, the
> valve may be mounted on the firewall/heater-core outlets; completely
> in-line in the inlet heater hose and suspended by it (e.g. my '82 Cutlass); 
> or mounted on the engine block with the inlet heater hose attached to it
> (e.g. my '76 Cutlass). In any event, when vacuum is applied, the valve
> will open. In some cases I suppose they might rig it to _close_ at that
> point... whatever the design calls for...

So, Andy, you're saying that you'd have to have a vacuum-controlled 
heater/defroster to have one of these? So my cable-operated heater in my 
'68 Cutlass without a/c wouldn't have one? Actually I don't recall *ever* 
seeing any mention of one of these in the service manual for my '68... 

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: "DeHon Williams" <dwilliam@arb.ca.gov>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 08:27:41 -0300
Subject: RE: Cam number

I would like to know the specs on the 402194 (W31) camshaft and also 
the piston specs.  

>           >Anyone know the specs of cam #401348?  From a 70 Cutlass SX.
>           
>           I have the article:Cam-shaft Identification Chart for 307-455 cid 
>           engines 1964 to 77, Journey with Olds, February 1995, by Karl D. 
>           Sarpolis, Jr. There is no part no. 401348 listed. The part no. 
>           for 1970 are:
>           393859
>           400084
>           400117
>           400165
>           402486
>           402569
>           406768
>           402194
>           for respectively:
>           350	4 BC ex: TH, OAI, Hi Perf 
>           350	2 BC, 4BC TH
>           455	ex: Toro., Pol.
>           	4257, 67(Cutlas Supreme) 4400 TH, Toro., W-34
>           455	Toro. ex W-34
>           455	4400 ST OAI (W-30)
>           455	4400 ST ex OAI
>           350	OAI (W-31)
>           If any of these look likely, I can send you the corresponding:
>           Overlap  	Duration,  		Lift, inches	
>             		Inlet	Exhaust		Inlet	Exhaust
>           
>           Roger Heath 71 Delta 88 Convertible
> 
> 
> 
DeHon Williams
Computer Technician
Technical Support Division, ARB

------------------------------

From: urbanch@magi.com (Chris Urban)
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 15:29:47 -0300
Subject: Re: Roller lifters on std cam? 

I think you answered your own question Chris. The roller cam profiles are
far larger than a hydraulic and to use roller lifters with a hydraulic cam
would give very little valve movement. Not to mention that the valve train
geometry would be right out the window. You would have to order custom
pushrods at least.


>Just a thought... might one use roller lifters on a std. cam???
>Obviously, the duration would be thrown off, but I was a-thinkin' [you could
>just smell the smoke, huh?] OK, roller is basically a skinny bottom, so lift
>will begin later & end sooner that if a flat bottom tappet were there... so a
>long duration camshaft becomes shorter, more streetable...
>
>I might just do a mock-up engine and degree a regular cam with std and then
>with a roller lifter, just to see what happens...
>
>Comments?
>--
>Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
>wittchri@pilot.msu.edu
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 13:43:58 -0300
Subject: Re: Heater Noise  

>So, Andy, you're saying that you'd have to have a vacuum-controlled 
>heater/defroster to have one of these? So my cable-operated heater in my 
>'68 Cutlass without a/c wouldn't have one? Actually I don't recall *ever* 
>seeing any mention of one of these in the service manual for my '68... 

Huh. Good question. Unfortunately the last non-A/C car in my family was
our '69 wagon, and that went out of here _years_ ago; somebody else will
have to field this one.

Well, if your temperature slide control has no vacuum lines on it, and
you can trace the cable from it to the duct doors, and _they_ don't have
any vacuum lines or switches on them either, then I'd say you didn't
have a heater valve.

OTOH, you could always lift the hood, find the two heater hoses emerging
from the firewall somewhere in the vicinity of the right front wheel, and
trace them forward to the engine. If you don't run into a valve somewhere
between the firewall and the engine, you don't have a valve.  :-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 15:33:24 -0300
Subject: Library finds

eWas in the library last night... happened to look up Olds, etc. ...
Found a couple interesting tidbits.
  1- Taped interview with Ransom E. Olds a few weeks before his demise in
1950...
  2- _Auto Pioneering_, a book all about the startup of Oldsmobile, etc.
Includes several photos, including one of R.E. Olds at age 4! First factory,
drawing of the early Olds steam engine, etc.
  3- A Master's thesis, centered around modelling -get this- damage to hoods of
1968 GM Oldsmobile division products!  I can just see it... Here's a nice new
Cutlass S/ 442 hood... We drop a 500# weight on it... and look, it bends just
like the model predicted it would! AAAAGH!

Might have to go scope that thesis out...
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Fernando Proietto <proietto@dow.on.doe.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 01:33:42 -0300
Subject: Re: Cam number

Thanks Greg. But, you know what, I think I always had this info. just forgot about it. I 
know I saved it the first time you sent it but I just got caught up in knowing what my cam 
is compared to right at the moment. And yep, its a cross between the 

1970 393859    58   286/286   .472/.472 350 4BC ex. AT, OAI, hi-perf

and the 

     402194    82   308/308   .474/.474 350 W-31 OAI

Lets see, I have a 290 duration I think, and about .482 lift I think again. More duration 
and lift of the first but less duration and more lift of the W-31. What's better, more 
duration or more lift? Does anyone have the Modello camp spec on hand to check? The cam 
should be JM16-18,  but not exactly sure.

More duration will give bad idle because or over lap and more lift will cause pistion to 
value clearance problems. Any thoughts?

Regards
Fernando Proietto

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 17:49:46 -0300
Subject: Re: Automotive crossbreeding

Pat Clark 952-3776 wrote:
> 
> > IN JEST OF COURSE, My bro-in-law suggested that
> >the 330 block in my garage might be best used as a anchor on a short chain,
> >with this friend's wife on the other end o' the chain, tossed into Cape Cod Bay
> >I told him that, besides having to file an EPA Environmental Impact statement,
> >it would be a very ignoble end to an Olds engine :)
> 
> >I'll say it again, in case anyone thinks otherwise -- IN JEST OF COURSE :)
> 
> But what a great use for a Ch*vy SB!
> 
>     There are surely a lot of Ch*vy small blocks; but then there are a lot 
of potential ex-spouses.  It probably evens out.  Kind of like a balance 
of nature.

Bill Culp

------------------------------

From: Roberto Haas <rhaas@cmetnet.cmet.net>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 21:55:40 -0300
Subject: [none]

unsubscribe oldsmobile

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 10:02:11 -0300
Subject: crank Q's

Hmmm... went to install the crank yesterday... coupla items need assistance.

Step 1- plastigage [green] yielded numbers of 1.5-1.5-1-1.5-2 thou on #1-5
resp. Cool... right?

But, when torked down, crank will not turn. Remove front 3 caps, assuming heat
has warped block, crank turns OK. Gradually put back on #3, then 2, then 1...
each time crank gets a bit tighter.

Peculiarly enough, if the crank is KEPT turning, turns easily, but if it stops
even momentarily, tork to get it started again is quite high.

So, I suspect main journals out of line and/or crank bent. Will have these
checked today by the man w/ the tools.

So, why then did p'gage say clr was OK??? I'm thinking that the #3 clr was off,
was NOT in fact 0.001", but that the plastigage does not squish out any smaller
than that, thus leading me to believe that there was 0.001" when in fact there
was not.

OK, problem? #2... I wanted numbers, ya know... so, I figured put a crank bolt
in the front end, use the beam type tork wrench to see breakaway tork & turning
tork.. OH, what's this? the crank has NOT the std. 3/4" NF threads, but only
1/2" NF threads ??? Early production, 1965 maybe, 400 crank? That'd explain how
Bryce came up with only 50 ft# for a tork on that bolt...
  I have never seen an Olds crank with less than a 3/4 bolt in the front, even
my old '64 330 engine... With any luck, I can drill & tap for the larger
bolt...
   Anybody else ever seen one of these small-bolt cranks?

Anyhow, the tork to break the crank free with all caps in place was about 65
ft#, after which it turned with 'only' about 30 ft#... This compared to the
usual good installation where the crank itself turns easily by hand on the
front snout.

- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: FENT81A@prodigy.com (MR CHRISTOPHER R JONES)
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 12:13:22 -0300
Subject: - 

unsubsribe oldsmobile Christopher Jones fent81a @ prodigy.com

------------------------------

From: OLDSPWR@aol.com
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 18:34:30 -0300
Subject: G-body gauge instructions.. 

Sorry for such a long delay, but I finally have a hard copy of the
instructions of how to install factory gauges in a 78-87 G-body.  So send me
your address, and I'll sport a stamp and send you out a copy.  It's 11"x17"
and its packed with info.  I would send out a JPEG, but you can't get a nice
hard copy from it. 

Tom Millard OLDSPWR@aol.com

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #185
********************************

