
oldsmobile-digest         Thursday, 11 April 1996      Volume 01 : Number 144


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Dink" <heinle@jake.udayton.edu>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:41:47 -0300
Subject: Re: olds 307 stuff

>      There is only one problem that needs to be fixed.  It seems that we
> have way to much pressure (somehow,someway) because we are getting small oil
> leaks around the oil filter and the rear of the engine.

This happened to me once.  I lost the breather element off of the 
valve cover and just used some duct tape for a while.  But i noticed 
it was leaking from the oil filter as you do.  I replaced the tape 
with the breather element and not a problem since.

Dink
80 Delta 88 Royale 307 "many mods"

{
Dink           Dayton, Ohio
http://homepages.udayton.edu/students/heinle/
Computer Information Systems Major @ UD
}

------------------------------

From: "Dink" <heinle@jake.udayton.edu>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:58:43 -0300
Subject: Re: A Flamed Toro!!! 

> I DEFINITELY believe in doing the car the way you want it and not what some
> self-appointed expert declares is correct. 

I totally agree.  Did anybody see the last My classic car show?  They 
had a Corvette on there that had a factory restoration.  It was so stupid 
it showed the doorjams not painted, flaws in the paint, etc.. and the 
owner wanted it that way!!!!  If that was me I would have it 
looking as good as an Olds at least!

Dink
80 Delta 88 Royale 307 "mods"

{
Dink           Dayton, Ohio
http://homepages.udayton.edu/students/heinle/
Computer Information Systems Major @ UD
}

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:03:09 -0300
Subject: Re: mail test

Greg Palmer wrote:
> 
> server test


Receiver test     :)

- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:08:53 -0300
Subject: Re: A Flamed Toro!!! 

Dink wrote:
> 
> > I DEFINITELY believe in doing the car the way you want it and not
> > what some self-appointed expert declares is correct.
> 
> I totally agree.  Did anybody see the last My classic car show?  They
> had a Corvette on there that had a factory restoration.  It was so 
> stupid it showed the doorjams not painted, flaws in the paint, etc.. 
> and the owner wanted it that way!!!!  If that was me I would have it
> looking as good as an Olds at least!


Ch*vies.  Geez!

The 66 Toro and Mike (a known Toro-virus carrier)


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: gludlam@bcinet.net (Gregg Ludlam)
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:28:16 -0300
Subject: Re: Toro Gear Oil? 

>Hey, guys:
>
>I'm not trying to complicate the issue but my Toro manual says to use 
>GM P/N 1050015 (whatever that equates to) and goes on to say:

Yeah, that part number is the one that's now been superceded by a bottle of
touch-up paint!  What alerted me to a possible difference was the fact that
in the '67 Service Manual a standard rear-end used one type of gear-oil, a
posi/limited-slip used another (different) gear-oil, and the Toro was yet
another gear-oil (ie: part number 1050015 or equivalent).  The local Olds
dealer says any good 90-weight gear oil will work.  Any more ideas?


- -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:32:58 -0300
Subject: Re: 1970 W32 

In a message dated 96-04-09 14:26:19 EDT, you write:

>1970.  Both were available as options on the Cutlass Supreme.  Reportedly,
>there were 7,197 SX-optioned Cutlass S models built that year."  The amount
>of W-32 optioned cars built is listed as unknown.

So the SX option was available on cars other than the Cutlass Supreme? Does
that mean the W-32 was also available on the "S" as well? Where are you
quoting from?

Was there no W-32 option in '71? Only the L31?

Now I'm really confused...

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:32:40 -0300
Subject: Re: Vista Cruiser, Part Twoser: The Parting (Out) -and yeah,  

In a message dated 96-04-09 12:09:13 EDT, you write:

>I was wondering if Bob Barry (or anyone else out there in cyberspace)
>has the following parts to sell:
>
>from a 1972 Cutlass or Vista cruiser with 350 with 2bbl carb:
>
>a) the idle speed solenoid (that fits on the front left of the carb)
>b) the bracket for the solenoid
>c) the jumper wire from the solenoid to the wire harness
>
>I need these for my 72 442 W-30.

I'll check my 2-bbl; it's all original, so if it was there, it should still
be there. Was that the same on all carbs, though? Any misc parts that you
need? Dash is perfect (though blue), and emissions parts and wiring harness
(both sides of firewall) are all there.

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:32:42 -0300
Subject: Re: 1970 W32 

In a message dated 96-04-09 00:02:52 EDT, you write:

>I don't know if this is what you want to know or not.  All info is taken
from
>the '70 Product Selling Features Album.  The SX (referred to under the

[incredibly detailed information, telling basically everything I've been
wanting to know about my SX for the last ten years, deleted]

>me a SASE.  Email me directly for address if you are interested.
>Phartlieb@aol.com.
>
>Hope this helps
>
>Paul

Uh, yeah, Paul, thanks... 

Wow, that's a lot to digest; definitely one for the FAQ (*when* is that
coming out?).

So my 2-bbl 320hp version *was* an early production version only, and
presumably a "limited edition" version that was replaced by the standard
365hp 455, or the *optional* 365hp 455.(huh?) So what are the differences
between these two motors? And was the W-32 only available on the SX, or on
other Cutlass Supremes, or on Cutlass "S"'s as well? Was the SX option
available on the 4-door Cutlass Supreme? Any W-32 powered 4-doors would
certainly be rare... (not that I'd want one...)

Well, that puts me in the uneviable position of owning an extremely rare, but
extremely undesireable (relatively speaking) Cutlass Supreme. Sigh... Nobody
has the breakdown for the 1970 SX production by engine (L33, L31, W32), do
they?

Anyway, my all original 2-bbl 455 intake, w/ carb and air cleaner is still
for sale, for the purists who just *have* to own a correct L33 engine. ;)

Bob (obviously not a purist) Barry
1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (now I can put "extremely rare factory L33 engine")
1978 403-powered Electra
19?? ????

------------------------------

From: Jeff Stanish <stanishj@svpal.org>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:34:30 -0300
Subject: Re: Summit Disappointment...

My machinist really worked to get all the parts I neede for my 455 
rebuild.  My advice to anyone rebuilding their olds DO IT NOW!!!!
My machinist had to go through six different types/brands of valve 
springs before he could find ones that met the installed/open height 
pressure specs for my '69 H/O. 

On Tue, 2 Apr 1996 Bob0Barry@aol.com wrote:

> As part of my "getting serious" about my 403 rebuild, I decided to update my
> catalog collection, so I ordered a Summit Racing catalog to replace my 1992
> issue...
> 
> Well, you could fit *all* the Olds parts they list in that catalog on one
> page! Meanwhile, there are about a half-dozen pages devoted to Ch*vy
> *crankshafts*!
> 
> What's with that??? I remember when there were serious parts for just about
> every make (not to feel singled out, AMC, Buick, and even Mopar parts are
> lacking much representation as well).
> 
> I'm hoping my Jeg's catalog will have a bit more; I know the parts are made,
> since Mondello doesn't just sell the parts he makes. I don't hold out much
> hope for my soon-to-come ASAP catalog, though.
> 
> Pretty soon, it looks like the Olds 455 and 350 will take their place in
> Kanter's catalog right along side the 221" Flathead Ford and the Buick
> Straight-8!
> 
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:32:54 -0300
Subject: Removing a '70-'72 dash 

Day after Easter, I dug through the snow to the ol' '72 Vista Cruiser to
remove some more parts, and got the steering wheel, brake booster, pedal and
support, parking brake and other misc. items off. I'm about to remove the
dash as one piece, and have a couple questions:

First, I've removed four glorified speed nuts from the inside lower edge of
the plastic part of the dash, as well as two bolts from behind the instrument
surround, and that seems to have freed up most of the thing. I'm assuming
there is another nut on the other side of the glove box; will that be the
last one, or is there another lurking behind the glove box itself?

This blue dash pad is uncracked, and the rest of the dash is in very good
shape, so I'd like to remove it the way they installed it, wiring and
switches intact. Any advice/experience on this? Anyone have the factory body
manual from '70-'72?

Second, it appears that the metal part of the dash is welded to the shell; is
that correct?

Third, what have you found is the best way to remove a windshield? 

Fourth, anyone need any of these pieces? I want to haul off just the bare
metal shell, so I'll have all the misc pieces afterwards.

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:31:32 -0300
Subject: Re: mail test 

Toronado Virus check............

------------------------------

From: gludlam@bcinet.net (Gregg Ludlam)
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 21:44:19 -0300
Subject: Re: Toronado  1966-1996 

>Hey fellow 1966 Toronado owners,
>
>Do you know what year it is?
>
>Thats right, the 30th anniversary of the last automotive engineering,
>technical, and design marvel of the 21st century! Not since the 1934 Cord has
>an automobile been produced in the USA that has set such futuristic
>benchmarks. Just ask me, I'll tell ya!  he he!
>
>Now, collectively, what shall we do about it! I have made the first step
>tonight, unfortunately, I can't say what it is yet...... but I will soon.
>Only Mike Frederick knows of my activities, and he is sworn to secrecy

Oh no - one of you guys isn't gonna jump out of a Toro-shaped cake smeared
with WD-40 are you?  I won't be a part of that - Ok, maybe I will, but go
sparingly with the WD-40, please?!   :)


- -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 22:28:17 -0300
Subject: Re: 403 c.i. Engine 

In a message dated 96-04-09 18:22:35 EDT, you write:

>> has anyone got a need for a GMC 305 V6?
>                                                            ^^^^^^^^^
>you mean   V8??

No, he meant V-6 (SIX, that is), from an early-60's GMC truck. Utterly
unrelated to the 305 Ch*vy doorstop. ;)

>>or know of how to make it scream?

I'd say nobody does, as it was a truck-only item, and trucks didn't receive
any factory performance attention until the late '60's, at least. I'm sure
that with some popsicle sticks, JB Weld and a hacksaw, you could adapt a
Ch*vy tunnel-ram intake, regrind the cam, custom bend some headers, shave and
port the heads, and have a 5000rpm, 260hp motor on your hands, but who would
bother?

I hear it is a *great* truck engine, with lots of torque; great for hauling
your Olds show car around in!

------------------------------

From: Richard Bonazzoli <bonazzoli@5onflr.ENET.dec.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:02:33 -0300
Subject: Re: 403 c.i. Engine 

The 305 V6 was a truck engine.  It is a low RPM
torque monster not really suited for use in a car.

Rich

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:12:39 -0300
Subject: Re: 1970 W32 

In a message dated 96-04-09 20:42:58 EDT, you write:

>>1970.  Both were available as options on the Cutlass Supreme.  Reportedly,
>>there were 7,197 SX-optioned Cutlass S models built that year."  The amount
>>of W-32 optioned cars built is listed as unknown.

I think this was a typo.  He probably meant Supreme.

>So the SX option was available on cars other than the Cutlass Supreme? Does
>that mean the W-32 was also available on the "S" as well? Where are you
>quoting from?

No, it wasn't.  SX & W32 were Supreme options only.

>
>Was there no W-32 option in '71? Only the L31?

Now, for '71 the only SX engine was not the L31, but the L32 250hp 455 4bbl.
 L31 was still the standard 98 engine with 225hp, but was not available on
the SX as the '70 98 engine was on the '70 SX.  No W32 option listed for '71.

>
>Now I'm really confused...

Still confused???

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:17:59 -0300
Subject: Re: 1970 W32 

In a message dated 96-04-09 20:43:44 EDT, you write:

>So what are the differences
>between these two motors? And was the W-32 only available on the SX, or on
>other Cutlass Supremes, or on Cutlass "S"'s as well? Was the SX option
>available on the 4-door Cutlass Supreme? Any W-32 powered 4-doors would
>certainly be rare... (not that I'd want one...)

Unfortunately, the features book or the memo don't go into any detail with
the W32 motor.  According to the memo (see chart below) W32 was available
w/SX only.  SX was available on Coupe & Convert only, not Holiday sedan (but
wouldn't that be something...)

Engine codes:
L33 - 320hp 455 2bbl available on Cutlass Supreme, Cutlass S & Cutlass and
         included as part of the Y79 SX Performance Package (cancelled)
L65 - 250hp 350 2bbl standard on Cutlass, Cutlass S & F85, available on
Cutlass
        Supreme
L74 - 310hp 350 4bbl standard on Cutlass Supreme, available on Cutlass S,
        Cutlass & F-85
L31 - 365hp 455 4bbl standard on 98 (replacement for L33 on SX)
W31 - 325hp 350 4bbl Force-Air available on Cutlass S & F85
W32 - ?? Is this the 365hp 455 4bbl 442 motor?  This motor is standard and
          doesn't have an option code in the book 

This chart is taken directly from the 2-24-70 memo.  "X" stands for optional
equipment.

Body Style                                                     Optional
Engines
   code         Description                     L33       L65    L74    L31
   W31    W32

3635     Cutlass Station Wagon     Cancelled    Std.     X      NA      NA
     NA
3639     Cutlass Holiday Sedan            "          Std.     X      NA
     NA      NA
3669     Cutlass Town Sedan               "           Std.     X      NA
     NA      NA
3677     Cutlass S Sports Coupe          "          Std.     X      NA
      X        NA
3687     Cutlass S Holiday Coupe         "          Std.     X      NA
      X        NA
4239     Cutlass Supreme Holiday
            Sedan                                   "             X      Std
   NA       NA      NA
4257     Cutlass Supreme Holiday
            Coupe                                   "             X      Std.
 With      NA     With













                                                                          Y79
               Y79
4267     Cutlass Supreme
            Convertible                            "             X       Std.
  With       NA       With














                                                                          Y79
                   Y79

Does this clear things up for you?

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:32:12 -0300
Subject: Re: 403 c.i. Engine 

At 20.03 04,09,96 -0300, you wrote:
>> has anyone got a need for a GMC 305 V6?
>                                                            ^^^^^^^^^
>you mean   V8??
>
>>or know of how to make it scream?
>put it in a F*rd! ;), or get beat by an Olds!
>
>Dink
>80 Delta 88 Royale 'many mods'
>
>{
>Dink           Dayton, Ohio
>http://homepages.udayton.edu/students/heinle/
>Computer Information Systems Major @ UD
>}

sorry man, it IS a V6...there was also a 351, and a 401 marine, this engine
will never die...and i was just seeing if anyone knew what to do with it...
                    Zack
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\ "That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
 *************

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:37:17 -0300
Subject: Re: 403 c.i. Engine 

At 23.02 04,09,96 -0300, you wrote:
>The 305 V6 was a truck engine.  It is a low RPM
>torque monster not really suited for use in a car.
>
>Rich
>

but i have a 91 bravada pickup...an odd engine would REALLY set it apart
               Zack
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\ "That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
 *************

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:36:30 -0300
Subject: Re: 403 c.i. Engine 

At 22.28 04,09,96 -0300, you wrote:
>In a message dated 96-04-09 18:22:35 EDT, you write:
>
>>> has anyone got a need for a GMC 305 V6?
>>                                                            ^^^^^^^^^
>>you mean   V8??
>
>No, he meant V-6 (SIX, that is), from an early-60's GMC truck. Utterly
>unrelated to the 305 Ch*vy doorstop. ;)
>
>>>or know of how to make it scream?
>
>I'd say nobody does, as it was a truck-only item, and trucks didn't receive
>any factory performance attention until the late '60's, at least. I'm sure

this out of a '67 truck...sooo

>that with some popsicle sticks, JB Weld and a hacksaw, you could adapt a
>Ch*vy tunnel-ram intake, regrind the cam, custom bend some headers, shave and
>port the heads, and have a 5000rpm, 260hp motor on your hands, but who would
>bother?
>
>I hear it is a *great* truck engine, with lots of torque; great for hauling
>your Olds show car around in!
>

thanks
                    Zack

      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\ "That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
 *************

------------------------------

From: Dan Dale <daleds@okra.millsaps.edu>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:53:45 -0300
Subject: '57 Olds details 

>The 1957 Olds is for sale and is a 4-door but looks like a 2 door except for
>the small post - I used to have a 2-door and it was sold (in running condition)
>a few years ago and I sold it for 2000.00 (and it did not have the J-2 setup,
>just a 4bbl carb).
>
>The car was driven into a service station in Cuba Mo over 20 years ago, and
>abandoned...the owner let the manager have it for storage costs, and his son
>kept it out at his farm for  all those years, under some trees, so there is
>some rust due to that and the floors are bad, but it basically looks very
>restorable...the J-2 engine is the head with a 3 - 2bbl carb setup, and the 371
>cu in engine is a hemi-head V-8 (called a Rocket 88 Engine I think)....the head
>is supposed to be worth $500 in any condition and the breather can (the metal
>housing) which is rare (because they were thrown away and replaced by open
>Chrome Breathers in the 50's by car nuts), and that breather has been
>advertised alone for $600 to 1100.00 in Hemmings over the  last few years...the
>car is at Harlen Honse's home in Rolla Mo-his work number is 573-308-3807 and
>he has a trailer the car can be loaded on if necessary to move it. The car
>belongs to  Earl Horsefield and Harlen Honse...Earl Horsefield 303 Pine Cuba MO
>65453-1618 573-885-7373 Home and Work is 573-308-3553....H.Honse Home Number is
>573-364-8141 RR3 Rolla MO 65451 and directions to his house (where the car is)
>can be gotten by calling him at either of his  numbers...thanks for your
>interest...let us know when you want to look at it.
>
>written by E. Horsefield
>

as much as I hate to pass this up, I don't have time to fool with it so here
are the details of the '57 Olds that I found for sale if anyone is interested
in it. 



- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$Daniel Dale  daleds@okra.millsaps.edu f-list since 2/95 http://www.millsaps.$
$edu/~daleds/index.html  cars: 1972 Cotner-Bevington Oldsmobile 98 Endloader,$
$1973 Imperial LeBaron, 1966 Pontiac GTO, 1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-X 5.7TPI$  
$1955 Cadillac Seville, (2) 1969 Cadillac DeVille Convertibles(one for parts)$ 
$1976 Cadillac Series 75 Fleetwood Brougham, 1961 Imperial Custom            $
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 00:41:14 -0300
Subject: Re: spark plug problems 

>Has anyone had a problem using Bosch Platinum spark plugs?
>I am using a MSD ignition on a 500 mile old engine (455).  The crazy thing
about it is that two of the plugs are really crappy - black junk caked on
and the other 6 are burning fine.  I can't tell if the junk is from oil or
gas.  Probably a combination that perpetuated the problem.  I bought some
Champions this morning and will install them after I get done working.

Since only two are bad, I'd be slow to condemn the plugs.  I've never had a
problem with the Bosch Plat's, (besides FINDING them) but I've never heard
of anyone having any luck with a GM/Champion combination.  Old mechanic's
proverb for testing Champion plugs: "Put them in a bucket of water...  The
GOOD ones float!"  Anyone had any GOOD luck w/Champions?  I'd like to hear
about it...  Anyone? 

     About that caked on gunk:  Which cylinders are they on?  Perhaps two
using the same intake runner (ie 6&7 perhaps - I think that's right, anyway)
- -- Perhaps one that has a vacuum port attached to it - say, maybe the vac.
modulator?  I've seen those rupture, and get ATF sucked into the intake,
infecting only one or two cylinders, depending on where and how the lines
are plumbed.  How does your tranny shift?  Does it use any fluid without
explanation?  Pull of the vacuum line right at the intake and if there's any
moisture at all (red, usually) then the vac.mod. is toast, and you're
sucking in oil. 

     Perhaps your PCV system (if it is some genetically inbred style that
doesn't plug into the carb and get at least 4 cyl's worth of vacuum) is
causing these problems.  How about a compression and leakage test on the
engine, to assess the mechanical health of it, as a last idea.  Somewhere in
there, you should be able to come up with a logical source of these
contaminants.

     It is likely to rule out carb. problems, 'cuz that will mess up four
cyl's at a time, and the dark deposits can rule out a vacuum leak. This
leaves oil and richness.  Richness is not that likely (unless the other six
have vac. leaks, and the carb is rich enough that they compensate out, but
those two don't, but that's a really long shot!)  That leaves mostly oil.
Causes could be external oil intake (PCV, Vac. Mod. as mentioned before,)
worn valve guides (would have to be pretty extreme to cause a really bad
situation, which I'm assuming this is,) worn rings, interference problems,
like a valve, or a rod, etc, stuck through the top of a piston, etc.  Most
of these would be detected by a leakage test, and the guides/valve stem
seals - by driving.

     Again, since only two are contaminated, I am led quite strongly to
suspect something enterring an intake runner that feeds both cyl's, ie. Vac.
Mod.

     Whoa, just noticed the miles on the engine.  Maybe not too out of line
to suspect mechanical problems after all.  (you didn't happen to have a few
rings leftover, I take it?  :}  )

     Good luck,  keep us posted, etc....   :)

    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 455
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 00:41:12 -0300
Subject: Re: G-body tach update 

>
>     When I first got my '84 H/O last year, I posted here about a problem 
>     with the tachometer.  It would read about 1000rpm to high 
>     occasionally.  Several people wrote back to say that they had the 
>     exact same problem too.
>     
>     Well, I may have a solution for you, mine appears to be solved.  I 
>     replaced the spark plug wires and coil over a month ago and the 
>     problem went away and hasn't come back.  Granted the problem was 
>     intermittent anyways, so this may be a fluke.  I used the Accell HEI 
>     Supercoil and Accell wires as replacements.

     I had a similar problem in the past, the tach would read too high RPM.
In the back of the tach there is a "switch" selector for 6 or 8 cyl's.  I
found this would wiggle loose every now and again, and I would have to bend
the tabs out a bit, to insure solid contact.  Seemed to fix it right up.  It
should also be noted that smacking the dash or hitting a bump during these
"electronic outbursts" would temporarily cause accurate readings...

    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 455
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 00:44:01 -0300
Subject: Re: Misc. Stuffs 

  
                          <<<<<  S   N  I  P  >>>>>

>--make a <whatever engine> look like a <whatever>
>> Hmmm.  Are they really that gullible (I hope)?  I'm thinking I may just
>> try doing this very thing.  I guess from the outside, they really wouldn't
>> look different would they?
>
>The appearance it very similar. A really sharp mechanic might have a book
>telling what head #'s &/or block numbers to look for, but if those are
>'missing' due to some judicious grinding or bondo work during the rebuild...
>well, then what can they do but take your word for it. Go by the VIN code, etc.
>Why you COULD even take some, oh, 5-min epoxy and form the 'correct' code on
>the head... put a "2A" on the head, and voila' it's a 260 engine! :) -Chris-


     Ooh, SLICK!  I LIKE!  :)  Now about that rib behind the water pump, on
the shelf...


>> On a related note, does the 403/350/307 all use the same intake manifold?
>
>Yes, and no. Same size, but the Diesel has that opening for the injection pump.
>What? Oh, not the *Diesel* 350? :) OK, well, I have an AL 307? intake, whose
>ports at the head surface are rather small. Smaller that the old SB's, smaller
>than the 403's, but bigger than the 260's [I think]. Since this small port is
>dumping into a head with a presumably matching or at worst larger hole, it
>should work "OK". Of course a perfect match is best...
>  I had posted those intake ports sizes a while back, maybe somebody saved
>them. -Chris-

     Somewhere in between early 70's and the 80's (I guess when they
switched heads in what, '77 or so? to the PMD castings (I think that's how
it went, anyway) they used different intakes that coverred a water passage
between some of the intake ports.  (I'm going entirely on memory, here, from
about six years back)  The older intakes left these ports uncoverred and
Presto:  Prestone leaks!  The older heads had plugs in these holes, as far
as I've noticed, but the newer ones don't.  (at least my '81 260 didn't, if
that can be a fair representation...)  The intakes will still bolt up and
function, etc.  Just need to plug off them holes, I guess.



 Oh, yeah, that 14.5 second
>engine was running an Edelbrock intake and a Holley [ooooooh!] carb.
                                              ^^^^^^
     Yeah, I doubt it was the engine that slowed THIS one down!  By the way,
shouldn't that be spelled [ooouch!]  ?     :)

     By the way, looked up "Holley" in Webster's...  Says : To drip
incessantly, also to burn violently...   :)

     Also noticed gullible wasn't even in there!

    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 455
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 00:41:09 -0300
Subject: Re: wheels 

>I need to buy new tires for my 69 Cutlass.  I have Super Stock Two wheels on
>it (15x7), with 215/65/15 tires.  I would like to go to a little wider tire
>with a lower profile.  Would a 235/60/15 work?  I know it will fit under the
>fender, but how does it compare in diamater?  Or I could go to a 225/50/15,
>which would be a much smaller diameter tire, and lower the car somewhat.
>What do ya'll recommend?  The car originally had 14 inch rims w/hubcaps, but
>I don't know the original tire size on that 14 inch rim.  I'm not really
>worried about an accurate speedo, because the tranny was changed out twice
>while my father-in-law owned the car, so it is off anyway (the current
>tranny is out of a 76 Cutlass). Are different speedo gears available for the
>tranny (TH350)?  If so, how do I tell which ratio (or whatever?) I need?  

     Well, as for the tires, my GS ('70 A-Body, should have same space...)
has Olds Rallye's and 295-50R15's on it, and they fit under the fenders
right nicely!  My '81 has the same tires on, too, but they rub a little on
corners.  Nothing too major, though...
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 455
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: "Dink" <heinle@jake.udayton.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 01:49:59 -0300
Subject: Re: wheels

>      Well, as for the tires, my GS ('70 A-Body, should have same space...)
> has Olds Rallye's and 295-50R15's on it, and they fit under the fenders
> right nicely!

In the Front??????  Them are pretty wide tires for the front of 
anything.

Dink
80 Delta 88 Royale "mods"



{
Dink           Dayton, Ohio
http://homepages.udayton.edu/students/heinle/
Computer Information Systems Major @ UD
}

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 01:02:21 -0300
Subject: TVS, info

Any pf you folks kind enuff tosend me engine ID info, please include the engine
unit number on the oil fill tube.

Thermostatic Vacuum Switch:
One to carb ported vacuum, usuall at bottom of carb on front RH side
one to full manifold vacuum,
one to, uh, where was it :) oh yeah, the dist'r.

Often, they were kind enough to label them D, C, M for Dist, carb, manifold.
Gotta run, have fun.

- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 02:05:17 -0300
Subject: '69 Toro questions 

I have a couple of questions for the toroheads out there, since it looks like
there might be a deal going down here on a '69 model:

What engines were offered in the '69 toro? hp? valve sizes? cam specs? Were
they all dual exhaust? What were the options available? Did the '69 have the
barrel-type speedo?

Well, that's it for now; I'll probably have more after Sunday when I go look
at it.

------------------------------

From: Nick DiGiovanni <ndigiova@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 02:47:45 -0300
Subject: Re: 1970 W32 

At 11:12 PM 4/9/96 -0300, you wrote:
>In a message dated 96-04-09 20:42:58 EDT, you write:
>
>>>1970.  Both were available as options on the Cutlass Supreme.  Reportedly,
>>>there were 7,197 SX-optioned Cutlass S models built that year."  The amount
>>>of W-32 optioned cars built is listed as unknown.
>
>I think this was a typo.  He probably meant Supreme.
>
Actually, I typed what is in the book and that is what it said -
"SX-optioned Cutlass S models...".  I would have to agree with you though
that Supreme is what is meant in the book.  BTW the book is OLDSMOBILE
MUSCLE CARS by William Holder & Phillip Kunz.

Nick DiGiovanni
Port Coquitlam, B.C.
1970 4-4-2 - "Snarls Softly and Carries a Big Kick"

------------------------------

From: OLDSPWR@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:06:54 -0300
Subject: More on what to do with 85... 

Dan, (and anybody else who is interested) hear is the info you are looking
for:

Solid webs and 403's: All 307's and most' 403's have webs that have large
holes in them.  The web is the part that the caps bolt to, so to have a
solid web' would mean a much stronger bottom end.  As far as 403's go, some
people doubt that a solid web engine was ever made.  According to Mondello
(who I will mention later), 2500 solid web 403's were produced in 1977 and
they were used in big Buick and Olds wagons.  You can determine if you have a
solid web by looking at the serial number.  When Mondello comes out with his
technical reference manual there will be a list of serial numbers that are
solid webs. But keep in mind, nobody on this mail list has ever seen a solid
web, so we have to take it as a myth until somebody proves otherwise.

455 in a G-Body:  A 455 will fit into a G body with no problems.  (My 79
Cutlass winter bomb came with a 455) If you have AC, the engine will fit
fine, but if you have just a heater box, it will have to be slightly trimmed
to clear the passenger valve cover.  If you use the stock exhaust manifolds
and y-pipe, the stock exhaust will bolt right up, but its rather small (2"?
or so).  Besides, if you plan on building 300 horses or so, I'm sure you're
considering headers.

Parts availability for 350/403: 260/307/330/350/403 are all small blocks and
have the same exterior dimensions, so all the brackets and so on will
interchange.  So intakes, headers, distributors, cams,  oil pans, valve
covers, etc, etc, will interchange from the 350 to 403.  The only thing that
doesn't (easily) interchange are the heads.  All 403's had 4A heads, while
350's had an assortment of heads.  To use a 350 head on a 403, the mounting
holes have to be drilled for =" bolts instead of 7/16" and the pilot holes
have to be opened up to 5/16".  The advantages of using a 350 head on a 403
are flow and compression ratio.

Oldsmobile Engine info: As far as technical sources, there are two main ones
that most people on the mail list are familiar with.  They are:

Mondello Performance Products, Inc.
1103 Paso Robles Street
Paso Robles, CA 93446
Phone: 1-800-252-2527
Tech: 1-805-237-8808

Dave Smith Engineering
Corona, CA
Phone: 1-909-371-7040

As far as technical info goes, Mondello seems to give quite a bit of info and
in a few weeks he is putting out a technical info book.  Supposedly this book
will have everything a man wanted to know and more about Oldsmobile engines,
etc (but take that for what it's worth)

Transmissions: The 200-4R has a unique bell housing that will fit behind both
Ch*vy's and Buick/Olds/Pontiac's.  So this will bolt up to my 403 without a
problem.  As far as the 700-4R goes, you will need a special adapter plate
that will mount a Ch*vy bolt pattern to a BOP bolt pattern.  I understand
these plates go for about $70-80, and I am not sure about the length of the
drive shaft, etc. 2 years ago at the 350 Rallye nationals at Englishtown, NJ,
3 different guys were using the 700's with a lot of success.  They blew up a
few 200-R4's and decided to go with the larger stock 700.  Keep in mind
though that a stock 200-4R is relatively weak and can be destroyed easily.  I
am having mine built by Sepanek Racing Transmissions of Moosic, PA.  I did
not get the bill yet, but it will probably be around $400-450.  I am using a
converter from Dynamic which cost me $175 for a non-lock up model with a
stall of between 2200 and 2400 rpm's.(I drive my car on some long trips...)

Shifter: To give you some background, I have had both the B&M Megashifter and
the Hurst V-matic in my Cutlass.  Both models were with there own console
(which I did not use) The chrome plate will fit in the stock Cutlass console
with some modifications to the plate underneath.  I did not like the
Megashifter at all, and went through 2 of them.  The first one I broke the
handle in half, and it wasn't from abuse either.  The second one (which was
borrowed) didn't shift worth a damn so I replaced it with the Hurst.  I like
the Hurst, but it still doesn't work as well as I would like it to.  So this
time I am using a Hurst Quarter stick.  I just put one in my brother's truck
and really like how it is built and how it works.  For the 3 speed model,
it's about $140 or so while the 4 speed model is $216 (from Summit Racing).
 In fact UPS just dropped it off today so I will let you know how its works
with the overdrive after I install it.

Rear: You probably (almost definitely!!!) have the 7.5".  As far as I know
the only G-bodies that came with the 8.5" are the 442 and GN/T-Type.  The
easiest way to determine the difference between them is to look at the
covers.  The 8.5" is rounder while the 7.5" seems to be a little squared off.
 If you don't trust eyeing it up, measure the distance between the bottom
center bolt in the cover and the one to the left or right of it (center to
center).  The 8.5" should be 3 3/8" apart while the 7.5" should be 3 1/8"
apart.

Posi: Most GM rears that came factory with a posi (actually a limited slip)
will have a tag on the first bolt to the right of the center bottom bolt of
the cover.  The tag will state that limited slip differential fluid must be
used.  But keep in mind that sometimes these tags are misplaced or removed
when the fluid is serviced/changed.  Another way to tell if the rear has a
posi is to look at the two letter code that is stamped on the front of the
passenger side axle tube.  If the first letter is a A', it is not a posi and
if it is B', it is...  If you check out the Turbo Regal web page, there will
be a technical article that will give the various codes in relation to gears
and posi's for G-bodies.  This should be very helpful...

Gears: 3.73's are a good choice, but if you use a taller tire than stock you
could also go with 3.90's or 4.10's.  With the 700-R4's overdrive ratio of .7
and the 200-4R's OD ratio of .67, you will still be under 2500 rpm's at 65,
which is pretty reasonable.

Well, I hope this helps you out along with anybody else that read this.
 Please feel free to drop me a line if you have any questions/comments.
   Tom Millard OLDSPWR@aol.com

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:12:56 -0300
Subject: Last post on HEI (promise)

Well went and bought a Mallory Unilite mechanical advance dist from Stupor Shops
last night. Before I put this thing on and ruin any chance I have to return or
exchange it, is there any problems that anyone can think of that I might find
by switching from a vac/mech advance stock points dist to a purely mech advance
HEI? I wonder about idle overheating with a/c on. They had me buy an in-line
resistor for the ignition wire to dist connection. I guess that my stock wiring
for a points system wouldn't have this already in place huh? One last question.
How hard is it to remove the oil pump drive rod from the old dist and install it
into the new. Is it pressed in. Thanks a lot guys!

          ___              ___        _________
         /   |            /   |      /         \
        /    |           /    |     |   ___    |
       /     |          /     |     |__|   |   |
      /      |         /      |           /   /   
     /       |        /       |          /   /   
    /   /|   |       /   /|   |         /   /
   /   /_|   |__    /   /_|   |__      /   /
  |             |  |             |    /   /
  |______     __|  |______     __|   /   /_____
         |   |            |   |     |          |      Pat Clark
         |___|            |___|     |__________|       69 442
						      400/400

   "Just your average 300+hp garage hogging, gas sucking, money pit"

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:27:40 -0300
Subject: Vac hose routing for 69 cutlass

Looked up the hose routing in my 69 shop manual last night for the guy with the
69 Cutlass S. It is in pictures, but I will do my best in words. Here Goes:

350 AT w/ac 4bbl -

Vac Switch:  	Top - Dist Vac Adv
		Mid - Drivers side front carb port
		Bot - Vacuum Tee off of intake (as below)

			     Tee
	intake ||||||||||| -------|||||||||||| Transmission
			      |
			      _
			      _
			      _
			Vacuum Switch



350 At w/ac 2bbl - 

				Dist ||||| Top Port Vac Switch

             Tee
Carb ||||||-------|||||||||||||||||||||||| Mid Port Vac Switch
              |
	      _
	      _
              |
          Tee |---|||||||| Trans
              | 
	      _
	      _		     Tee
	      _||||||||||||-------|||||||| Bot Port Vac Switch
			      |
			      |
			    Intake


The 2bbl is extremely confusing. Hopefully you have the 4!
Hope this helps. 

          ___              ___        _________
         /   |            /   |      /         \
        /    |           /    |     |   ___    |
       /     |          /     |     |__|   |   |
      /      |         /      |           /   /   
     /       |        /       |          /   /   
    /   /|   |       /   /|   |         /   /
   /   /_|   |__    /   /_|   |__      /   /
  |             |  |             |    /   /
  |______     __|  |______     __|   /   /_____
         |   |            |   |     |          |      Pat Clark
         |___|            |___|     |__________|       69 442
						      400/400

   "Just your average 300+hp garage hogging, gas sucking, money pit"

------------------------------

From: "Schroedinger's Clint" <clint@digex.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:10:15 -0300
Subject: Got my Cutlass, Hurst, and other stuff!

Hi everyone.

After a long and "interesting" trip from the Wash DC area to Louisville,
KY to visit my friend Wynand, I drove back in his ex (now my) '81 Cutlass.

The car is in overall good shape.  A few dings here and there, and some
surface rust on the hood, and a slightly bent left fender are all that
wrong with the body.

The Chubby L69 (305 w/ Vette cam and good heads) is nice, though it's
being choked by the tiny cat and piping that came with the car.  The 700R4
is *very* nice though.  Nice firm shifts, everythings really tight there.
It also has a Vette (2500?) stall converter.  Combined with the 2:41
gearing, it's a complete dog off the line, but the car flies after that.
I do have a 3:23 posi to put in though.

The 16x8" IROC wheels shod with 235/60/16 Comp T/A's stick to the road
like glue.  Wynand also had the smarts to install a 12:1 steering box.

I also got a trunk full of parts for the car, including some extra interior
pieces, a complete 3:23 posi setup, all the parts I'll need to convert to
12" front brakes (except the upper control arms), a spare blower motor,
and some other stuff which I can't remember now.

As far as paperwork goes, I got the remain of the original window sticker,
the owner's manual, receipts for the tranny rebuild and wheel alignment,
and a couple *VERY* interesting envelopes.

Both envelopes had essentially the same information inside.  The first was
from Action Products, Inc.,  and the second was from Hurst Special Vehicle
Operations.  What they contain is information on the '88 Hurst/Olds Aero
Package:

============================================================================

"BELIEVE IT!

"The New Aero Package
"Hurst/Olds
"Available Direct From Hurst/S.V.O.

"Twenty years ago, it all began.  Doc Watson built a one of a kind 455 cu.
in. Cutlass for George Hurst...and a legend was born.

"Now it's 1988 and the rear wheel drive Cutlass will soon be no more.

"So...Doc Watson built a one of a kind monster motor'd "Last Hurrah"
Hurst/Olds for Joe Hrudka (the head of the Mr. Gasket conglomerate that
Hurst Performance now enjoys being a part of).  Joe is a world class car
collector and ex-national drag race champion whose passion for fast cars
and the performance business has become legendary as the Hurst/Olds
itself.  When people saw Doc's creation...they wanted one!

"Now, not everyone can have a neck snapping 455 cu. in. 1988 Cutlass, but
they can get one that looks just like it.  Hurst Special Vehicles Group
has developed an Aero package that you can obtain direct from Hurst/S.V.O.

"The Hurst/Olds package includes a full front airdam, side and rear aero
skirts, laminar flow rear deck spoiler, complete striping, and decals and
emblems identifying the car as a Hurst/Olds.

"For more information contact Hurst/S.V.O., 24531 North River Road Mount
Clemens, Michigan 48043, telephone (313) 468-2900

"Oh...by the way, the Aero package fits Olds Cutlass from 1981 through
1988 - so you can build your own "Last of a Legend" Hurst/Olds.

==============================================================================

The pictures show a white '88 Cutlass with monster size tires in the back
on what looks to be Cragar SS/T's.  The aero kit looks okay, but
definately better than whats on the ads for Lauren engineering.

Oh well... gotta work now...

Talk to you all alter.  8^)

Clint

                          _________
Rocket Boy!             _|_ _\\____|_     '81 Cutlass Supreme
clint@darklair.com       |___//____|            by Oldsmobile

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 12:25:32 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: 1970 W32 

Probably want to keep that 2bbl intake and carb so when the purist shows up, 
they will willingly pay more.  Good selling point also - just swap this box of 
parts back on to make it numbers correct.

David Brown
dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu    (312) 702-9157
"Oldsmobile - powerful roadsters with big V8s"

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 00:35:10 -0300
Subject: Re: Toro Gear Oil?

Gregg Ludlam wrote:

> Yeah, that part number is the one that's now been superceded by a
> bottle of touch-up paint!  What alerted me to a possible difference 
> was the fact that in the '67 Service Manual a standard rear-end used 
> one type of gear-oil, a posi/limited-slip used another (different) 
> gear-oil, and the Toro was yet another gear-oil (ie: part number 
> 1050015 or equivalent).  The local Olds dealer says any good 90-weight
> gear oil will work.  Any more ideas?

Nope.  But given how over-engineered the car was in the first place, I 
guess Olds was just being cautious about their new front-wheel stuff.

What color touch-up paint.  We wouldn't want points off for the wrong 
color.    ;)

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 02:11:04 -0300
Subject: Re: wheels

Dink wrote:
> 
> In the Front??????  Them are pretty wide tires for the front of
> anything.
> 


Maybe, maybe not.      :)

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 02:36:33 -0300
Subject: Re: Summit Disappointment...

Jeff Stanish wrote:
> 
> My machinist really worked to get all the parts I neede for my 455
> rebuild.  My advice to anyone rebuilding their olds DO IT NOW!!!!
> My machinist had to go through six different types/brands of valve
> springs before he could find ones that met the installed/open height
> pressure specs for my '69 H/O.
> Yeah, a few years back, in my dirt track days, we had a related problem. 

We started dropping valves on engines with VERY little time on them.  
Couldn't figure out what was going on.  First we suspected defective 
valves.  Luckly, I guess, one of the motors coughed up the valve head 
while idling on the infield (before it choked to death).  When we 
examined the head, shaft, and the piston, it started to look like float. 
Huh?  Idling?  

Finally figured out it was the (brand spankin' new) valve springs.  If I 
remember right, when we put them in they tested something like 150 lbs.  
When we checked them after less than an hour of run time and they had 
dropped to 105!

Moral of the story:  If your plan to wind it up a bit, you might want to 
check those springs periodically.  Seems the quality of some of them has 
gone into the crapper.


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 02:13:46 -0300
Subject: Re: '69 Toro questions

Bob0Barry@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I have a couple of questions for the toroheads out there...

Dunno.  Don't have one.  Any 69ers out there?

Greg?   Gregg?    Greggg?


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 02:22:34 -0300
Subject: Re: Toronado  1966-1996

Gregg Ludlam wrote:
> 
> Oh no - one of you guys isn't gonna jump out of a Toro-shaped cake 
> smeared with WD-40 are you?  I won't be a part of that - Ok, maybe 
> I will, but go sparingly with the WD-40, please?!   :)
> 

Hmmmm...

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: <tc75918@hpr169.mdhc.mdc.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 12:42:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Got my Cutlass, Hurst, and other stuff!

> "For more information contact Hurst/S.V.O., 24531 North River Road Mount
> Clemens, Michigan 48043, telephone (313) 468-2900
                                      ^^^

Just an update.  As of one or two years ago, the area code for Mt Clemens
is (810).  Used to go there every month to Selfridge ANGB.  N River Rd runs
right along the base.  Geez.  Wish I woulda known Hurst was there then.  Would
have definitely stopped in for a visit.

- --Dan

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:58:27 -0300
Subject: Re: Toronado  1966-1996 

> Oh no - one of you guys isn't gonna jump out of a Toro-shaped cake 
> smeared with WD-40 are you?  I won't be a part of that - Ok, maybe 
> I will, but go sparingly with the WD-40, please?!   :)

Would that be _with_ or _without_ the extension nozzle?

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Lucas Frick <frick@macrochip.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 12:15:51 -0300
Subject: Re: spark plug prob solved 

After installing the regular spark plugs ( they floated in water) and =
new plug wires, the engine ran great again.  Like an Olds 455 should.  I =
just happened to pull up to a light with some chump in a Frod =
Thunderbird SC. It was a great place to test out the new plugs.  Since =
everyone already knows what happened next I won't bother to bore you. =20

I really think that the very small diameter platinum wires in the 2 Bosh =
Plats plugs were fried by the MSD 6AL and the Blaster coil.  That coil =
is supposed to throw out some incredible fire.  I will check the plugs =
in a week or two to make sure that was the problem.=20

 I am certain that the gunk was not ATF fluid because my car is not a =
Branch Davidian in Waco.  Bad joke, sorry.  The car has a 4 speed Muncie =
anyway.  I am also pretty sure it was not caused by any major mechanical =
problems because there is no smoke coming out of the exhaust. - no worn =
valve guides or rings. And I runs to damn good.  Please feel free to =
beat the snot out of me with a baseball bat if I ever even think about =
getting rid of the car.

Luke  & 442=20

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 12:16:24 -0300
Subject: More Scrap

Well, folks, today I had occasion to stop by the scrap metal places... No good
engines at Padnos, but what's this, a TH400.... scrape the goo off the plate,
oh, my, it's a 68-OG... 1968 442 trans! Cool, into the truck it goes...

Stop by Friedland just for yucks [masochistic streak] what's this, a C head...
and another, with TORO xman still attached! And its twin... Wow. Too bad they
don't sell stuff. I have to check the database, see which years Toro came with
G/J xst mans, if indeed that's a pair of C heads and not G heads, I might have
to devise a PLAN to extract them pieces...

Counted cars at my brother's last weekend... he's got like 50 carcasses, just
his share. Sheesh. Some are real bad, not even Oldsmobiles... There's one that
got biffed in the back, so the owner replaced the back end, the WHOLE backend,
from the rear of the rear wheels on back... with PLYWOOD! Oh, my... Even a hasp
to hold the 'trunk' lid shut... and I thought wooden rear bumpers were a laugh!

Got the race car engine's block prepped and crank in so far... nothing like the
feeling of a nice fresh new engine... Ahhh.
 --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: "Dink" <heinle@jake.udayton.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:15:38 -0300
Subject: Re: Got my Cutlass, Hurst, and other stuff!

> After a long and "interesting" trip from the Wash DC area to Louisville,
> KY to visit my friend Wynand, I drove back in his ex (now my) '81 Cutlass.
                                     ^^^^^^^^^^6
Would that be Wynand Depuy with the Firehawk?

Dink
80 Delta 88 Royale 307 this&that

{
Dink           Dayton, Ohio
http://homepages.udayton.edu/students/heinle/
Computer Information Systems Major @ UD
}

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:21:38 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Toro Gear Oil? 

The limited slip diff requires a friction modifier additive for the W90 or 
whatever gear oil you use.  One symptom of not enough additive is the diff 
"clicking" when cornering.  Probably any 90W will work, but you might want 
to keep searching for someone or some manual that knows for sure.  It's 
your '67 Toro!

Paint would look cool with a clear diff cover!

David Brown
dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu    (312) 702-9157
"Oldsmobile - powerful roadsters with big V8s"

- -------------------
>Hey, guys:
>
>I'm not trying to complicate the issue but my Toro manual says to use 
>GM P/N 1050015 (whatever that equates to) and goes on to say:

Yeah, that part number is the one that's now been superceded by a bottle of
touch-up paint!  What alerted me to a possible difference was the fact that
in the '67 Service Manual a standard rear-end used one type of gear-oil, a
posi/limited-slip used another (different) gear-oil, and the Toro was yet
another gear-oil (ie: part number 1050015 or equivalent).  The local Olds
dealer says any good 90-weight gear oil will work.  Any more ideas?


- -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy

------------------------------

From: <tc75918@hpr169.mdhc.mdc.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 13:08:39 -0400
Subject: Re: More on what to do with 85...

> 
> 455 in a G-Body:  A 455 will fit into a G body with no problems.  (My 79
> Cutlass winter bomb came with a 455) If you have AC, the engine will fit
> fine, but if you have just a heater box, it will have to be slightly trimmed
> to clear the passenger valve cover.  If you use the stock exhaust manifolds
> and y-pipe, the stock exhaust will bolt right up, but its rather small (2"?
> or so).  Besides, if you plan on building 300 horses or so, I'm sure you're
> considering headers.

Others have mentioned that to fit the BB, you have to use headers that rout
outside the frame and may limit wheel turn.  Did you run into this with your
'79?


Thanks Tom, that's a lot of good info.

- --Dan

------------------------------

From: Paul Elosge <elosge@eco.twg.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:47:20 -0300
Subject: Re: Toro Gear Oil?

Excuse me for jumping into this discussion late again...

Isn't the original Toro differential something other than the normal
four spider gear setup. I seem to remember it being a flat planetary
unit, very narrow compared to normal differentials and those on later
Toros. I asked this question about the differential setup about a year
ago, but no one responded. Since then I saw a Chiltons manual that
showed two distinctly different differentials on the early and later
Toros, the early one being the very narrow unit. Unfortunately I
didn't see a exploded diagram of the unit to see how it worked.

Also, does the Toro differential use a hypoid ring and pinion setup? A
hypoid drive has the pinion offset down from the ring gear centerline;
this is normal on rear wheel drive cars to get the driveshaft lower in
the car. The offset is what causes the sliding friction and the need
for hypoid lubricant (not just 90 weight). If the ring and pinion are
not hypoid, I thought one didn't use hypoid lubricant (the stuff with
the disgusting odor!).

The differences in the gearing... spider vs. planetary, and hypoid vs.
spiral bevel, could lead to a legitimate difference in lubricant
requirements.

Anyway... just speculation, my memory is rather cloudy... I don't have
a Toro, and don't have any manuals either...

- - Paul Elosge (elosge@eco.twg.com)

------------------------------

From: Rocket Boy <clint@darklair.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 19:55:34 -0300
Subject: Re: Got my Cutlass, Hurst, and other stuff!

On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Dink wrote:

> > After a long and "interesting" trip from the Wash DC area to Louisville,
> > KY to visit my friend Wynand, I drove back in his ex (now my) '81 Cutlass.
>                        ^^^^^^^^^^
> Would that be Wynand Depuy with the Firehawk?

Yup.  The very same Wynand Depuy.  It was kinda of humbling to walk into 
a garage with his Firehawk T/A and a '69 Vette in the middle of 
restoration. 

Shesh... you woulda thought he'd cover the olds too...  ;^)

Clint

                          _________
Rocket Boy!             _|_ _\\____|_     '81 Cutlass Supreme
clint@darklair.com       |___//____|            by Oldsmobile

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:19:13 -0300
Subject: misc...

>z28cfi@gwis.com (Jason P. Labay)

Must be an oversight, Jason, but you might consider removing those offensive
letters from your email address... I believe a more appropriate combination
would start with a W, such as:
  W30cfi@gwis.com   :)

Mr. Urban: You have a BB Olds 2x4 intake, eh? Hmmmm, If I use big block heads
on that small block engine, will your bog block intake fit right on? :)

Aha, so, the Black 307's are '85 & up? That means ROLLER LIFTERS, right? If I
am not mistaken, the pushrod seat on my nice clean roller lifter looks like
it'd come right out and be replaced with a 5/16" ball seat, so that using the
roller lifters with the more common 5/16" pushrods would be fairly easy, no
need to buy Mondello'$ combination half-n-half pushrods.

Any folks kind enough to send me engine ID numbers, please include also any
other easily obtained #'s: namely the Engine Unit # stamped into the oil fill
tube, the year of the vehicle, if known, and the VIN of the car if known, and
the VIN derivative stamped into the front left corner of the block, if
possible. Thanks.

Sparg plug fouling guy: Two possibilities come to mind... First is that two
wires are on the wrong plugs, thus neither is firing at the right time. Did the
engine EVER run smoothly? Should be 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 in order on the dist'r cap.
#1 is the front left cylinder, and #3, 5, 7 are the other LH cylinders, 2-4-6-8
are the RH cylinders. Other possibilitys: are the pistons new or used? If used,
the oil ring's oil return holes must be cleaned out- they are usually closed
off with gunk. It's possible that those 2 cylinders got rings installed upside
down,and are pumping oil upwards rather than down. If the cylinders are
adjacent, then you might have a head gasket leak.
  I use Bosch Platinums in the van, they work great. Good as any other plug.
Oh, I might be mistaken, it's not my area of expertise, but I don't think that
MSD ignition makes 'stronger spark' unless your coil is replaced with a
super-potent one. Even then, the voltage achieved is limited to that required
to ionize the plug-gap air and jump the gap- after that, the spark energy goes
into flowing electrons, at somewhat less voltage. What MSD *does* do, is to
cause more than one spark per occasion- thus the name, MSD==Multiple Spark
Discharge. Not Mega-strong Spark Do-dad.

Vacuum Thermal switch on the '69: Soon you'll have the true dope... But, Tom,
in 1969 there was NO egr on the engine... while your point is valid in that EGR
isto be inactive during cold operation, that does not apply to this vehicle.
  Temp lite/ Cold lite: My 65 Delta has a "Cold" light, I thought that was SO
COOL the first time I drove it! Not too fast now, she's still 'cold'! OK, now
give her hell!
  Andy: that thermo vaccum switch would not 'hold vacuum' in the advance
canister... when it switches to a feed with lower vacuum, if there were a
higher vacuum level in the advance canister, it'd just leak out to the new feed
line...  [Hmmm, can vacuum "leak out"? That's a 'phylosofical' type question...]

Seals: Yep, the 350 neoprene seal should work just fine in ANY Olds small
block, including the 307, well, except for the Die&Sell, with that BB-sized
crank... That'd take the big block neoprene seal, of course.
  Your oil pan leak might just be from loose oil pan bolts. You have to snug
those things down nice and evenly, and go around 3-5 times to make sure that
they all end up just right. Not too tight either! If you go around only
once, then the first one is loosened by the pan being drawn down by the later
bolts...  Easy enuff to check anyhow...
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 12:45:09 -0300
Subject: Re: spark plug problems 

>Old mechanic's
>proverb for testing Champion plugs: "Put them in a bucket of water...  The
>GOOD ones float!"
 ^^^^
Um, why?

>Anyone had any GOOD luck w/Champions?  I'd like to hear
>about it...  Anyone? 

My GM mechanic friend said he gave up on Champions because they were too
"brittle", and they were hard to tighten without cracking, more likely
to break if dropped, etc. AC-Delco plugs, on the other hand, were stronger
in handling, and even were gapped correctly right out of the box most of
the time.

Here's a bit of useless trivia for you: Albert Champion (pronounce with
thick French accent, s'il vous plait) founded a spark plug company in the 
early 1900's sometime to sell plugs to William Durant's General Motors;
no, not the Champion Spark Plug Company, but with his own initials: the
AC Spark Plug company. Eventually Durant bought him out so as to bring 
the company under the GM umbrella (along with the Delaware ELectric COmpany,
or "Delco"). Somewhat miffed, Champion went out and founded yet another 
company to make spark plugs, using his whole name this time, which brings 
us up to today.

I left out a few details  ;-)  but the above should be mostly correct...

>Pull of the vacuum line right at the intake and if there's any
>moisture at all (red, usually) then the vac.mod. is toast, and you're
>sucking in oil.

Also you can try accelerating normally up to about 30 mph or so, then
let off the gas and coast while you look in your rear view mirror. If
letting off the gas gets you a puff of smoke out the tailpipe, the modulator
is leaking and sucking trans fluid into the manifold. 

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Dave Voorhis <dave@armchair.mb.ca>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:55:07 -0300
Subject: Re: Toro Gear Oil? 

At 01:47 PM 10/04/96 -0300, you wrote:

>Isn't the original Toro differential something other than the normal
>four spider gear setup.

I think (insert sound of memory being strained) the '66 had the funky
planetary gear differential, but the '67 and on had the normal arrangement.
Or maybe the '66 AND '67 had the planetary, and '68 and on got normal...
Damn alzheimer's.

>Anyway... just speculation, my memory is rather cloudy... I don't have
>a Toro, and don't have any manuals either...

I have Toros and manuals, but not here at work.  I'll look this up later.

Dave Voorhis, Toro disease infectee
dave@armchair.mb.ca
http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:10:14 -0300
Subject: Re: 1970 W32 

In a message dated 96-04-10 03:59:32 EDT, you write:

>Unfortunately, the features book or the memo don't go into any detail with
>the W32 motor.  According to the memo (see chart below) W32 was available
>w/SX only.  SX was available on Coupe & Convert only, not Holiday sedan (but
>wouldn't that be something...)
>
>Engine codes:
>L33 - 320hp 455 2bbl available on Cutlass Supreme, Cutlass S & Cutlass and
>         included as part of the Y79 SX Performance Package (cancelled)

That's interesting; a factory 2-bbl 455 available on regular Cutlasses for
the first few months of the 1970 model year only. Has anyone ever seen such a
beast? When did the 4-bbl 455 become available in non-442 Cutlasses (not
Supremes)? 1973?

Any idea of how many L33 Cutlasses and SX's there were? There couldn't have
been that many, I'd imagine.

And I'd still like to know the difference in the specs between the L31 and
the W32.

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:08:56 -0300
Subject: Re: Last post on HEI (promise) 

Pat:

Those Mallory Unilite's were famous for failing when first introduced.  It's
a solid state light emitting diode (LED) system. My Stupid Shops guy says
they solved the problem.  I'm not sure so sure.  In a contest between an LED
and a permanent magnet triggering system I'll take the magnet.  Add to that
if my ignition dies in the middle of nowhere I can get an HEI or it's
internals at most any chain parts store. 

Long ago I found out that much "speed" stuff is only manufactured to be sold
and is not as reliable (or good) as the stock pieces they replace.  Remember,
the auto manufacturer has to build emission related equipment, especially
ignition systems,  to last under the worst conditions and meet that EPA
50,000 mile durability requirement.  The only aftermarket ignition system I
have heard few/no bad things about is the MSD.  On another section of AOL I
read LOTS of bad stuff about Jacobs.  Didn't see anything on Mallory.

I run an HEI on my '67 with 455, nitrous, etc.  Got the HEI in a junk yard
for $35 to replace the original points distributor.  After brazing the slot
to limit the vacuum advance (from >25 degrees to about 10) and recurving the
mechanical advance it works great and beats the price of an MSD or similar.
 As for the stories that HEI's crap out above 4500, I don't know where that
got started (except by magazines hyping their advertisers' products) but I've
had mine to 7,000rpm.  I usually limit rpms to below 6,000.  In any case, my
HEI has never missed a beat.

>From my personal experience the problems with running only mechanical advance
and no vacuum advance are:

     * Overheating from the retarded (versus stock) timing
     * Poor idle (requires greater throttle opening to maintain idle speed)
     * Lousy gas mileage
     * Failure at any smog test facility (can't miss it)

Mechanical advance only distributors are essentially for racing only where
WOT doesn't provide any vacuum anyway.

I'd tweak that HEI first.

Bob Handren
'67 W-30 modified
'70 Cutlass SX convertible

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:07:37 -0300
Subject: Re: misc... 

>  Andy: that thermo vaccum switch would not 'hold vacuum' in the advance
>canister... when it switches to a feed with lower vacuum, if there were a
>higher vacuum level in the advance canister, it'd just leak out to the new feed
>line...  [Hmmm, can vacuum "leak out"? That's a 'phylosofical' type
question...]

*chuckle*  *snort*  If a vacuum leaks in the forest and there is no
vacuum gauge, does it make a noise?

Right, what I was referring to was setups where the vacuum needs to be
turned "off" for some reason. You can't just close off the line from the
vacuum source; you also need to bleed air _in_ to the line that you're
trying to deactivate. On some Fords with setups like that, the solenoid
ports that function as line purge inlets have little foam "filters"
stuck on them, which I guess also serve to prevent headscratching like
this over whether something's supposed to be connected there.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:14:23 -0300
Subject: Lead Solder Bodywork

A week or so back someone was looking for books on doing bodywork with 
lead. I got a new Eastwood's catalog yesterday and noticed that they now 
sell a videotape on this very subject. 55 minutes, $24.95 I think (cat's 
at home). Probably not a bad deal.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: "Dink" <heinle@jake.udayton.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:18:12 -0300
Subject: Re: useless trivia

> Eventually Durant bought him out so as to bring 
> the company under the GM umbrella (along with the Delaware ELectric COmpany,
> or "Delco"). Somewhat miffed,

Sorry but that's Dayton Electronic Laboratorys COmpany.
I live in Dayton and they have a place called Carrolin Park where 
they have historic stuff about dayton.  Some guy named Kettering 
developed the first self contained starter for the automobile, the first
contained ignition system, etc...
Also the home place of national cash register also known as NCR.

Just to add to the useless trivia :)

Dink
80 Delta 88 Royale 307 mods

{
Dink           Dayton, Ohio
http://homepages.udayton.edu/students/heinle/
Computer Information Systems Major @ UD
}

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:21:15 -0300
Subject: Entombed Cars

Article in the paper here this morning about a guy in Maine who uncovered 
a '54 Corvette with a couple of thousand miles on it. It had been sealed 
up in a "tomb" since the mid-50s when the original owner built a building 
around it. Reportedly the lowest-mileage and most original '54 Vette in 
the world (though I don't think I'd want to have to try and start it 
after sitting that long). Standing around the water cooler, chatting 
about it, this reminded one of the boys in the office about a '56 
Continental Mark II that was found here locally a couple of years 
ago under somewhat similar circumstances. That one worked fine when 
started after sleeping for 30 years or so.

Anyone ever find an OLDS in such circumstances, or similar, like a barn 
under a pile of straw, etc., that was mint? Or any good urban legends 
about such things? Just curious.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Chris Urban <urbanch@magi.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:23:42 -0300
Subject: RE: misc...

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Mr. Urban: You have a BB Olds 2x4 intake, eh? Hmmmm, If I use big block heads
on that small block engine, will your bog block intake fit right on? :)

Maybe if you took a run at it!

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------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:33:56 -0300
Subject: Confession 

I've been reading the Toro-virus discussions with growing concern.

You see, I once owned a '66 Toro.  It was love at first but it was not to be.
 Due to job circumstances and a move across the country it is now in someone
elses care.  I made sure it went to a good home though

My concern is that I although I have been exposed to at least one Toronado
(white, red interior, chrome wheels by the way) I have had no symptoms, I
think, of the dreaded Toro virus.

Could this mean I am a CARRIER!

Bob Handren
'67 442 W-30 modified
'70 Cutlass SX Convertible

------------------------------

From: eda@dl.tc.faa.gov
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:37:20 -0300
Subject: patented? 

Greg Beaulieu wrote:

> You've trademarked them, while I've patented the stupid mechanical move
> ("Let me just give this another twist... <snap> oh s**t...").  :)

S**t, you *patented* that?  *sigh* Okay, drop me a line, we'll work something out for the royalties I owe...*sheesh* :-)

Ed Atlee			'77 Cutlass Supreme
eda@dl.tc.faa.gov		'84 Hurst/Olds
	R O C K E T	P O W E R E D ! !

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:37:45 -0300
Subject: Re: useless trivia 

>Sorry but that's Dayton Electronic Laboratorys COmpany.

Sounds good... I'm heading back to the library...  ;-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:57:16 -0300
Subject: Re: 1970 W32 

At 14.10 04,10,96 -0300, you wrote:
>In a message dated 96-04-10 03:59:32 EDT, you write:
>
>>Unfortunately, the features book or the memo don't go into any detail with
>>the W32 motor.  According to the memo (see chart below) W32 was available
>>w/SX only.  SX was available on Coupe & Convert only, not Holiday sedan (but
>>wouldn't that be something...)
>>
>>Engine codes:
>>L33 - 320hp 455 2bbl available on Cutlass Supreme, Cutlass S & Cutlass and
>>         included as part of the Y79 SX Performance Package (cancelled)
>
>That's interesting; a factory 2-bbl 455 available on regular Cutlasses for
>the first few months of the 1970 model year only. Has anyone ever seen such a
>beast? When did the 4-bbl 455 become available in non-442 Cutlasses (not

i have seen one...it is being restored in Hilltown PA...the guy has about 13
oldsmobiles, and 8 of them are CHERRY Hurst/olds

>Supremes)? 1973?
>
>Any idea of how many L33 Cutlasses and SX's there were? There couldn't have
>been that many, I'd imagine.
>
>And I'd still like to know the difference in the specs between the L31 and
>the W32.
>

               zack
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\ "That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
 *************

------------------------------

From: "C. K. Yee" <yu135008@yorku.ca>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:00:07 -0300
Subject: Re: misc...

Chris,

> Aha, so, the Black 307's are '85 & up? That means ROLLER LIFTERS, 
> right? If I....
 
Just thought I'd point out that my '83 Delta 88 with the 307 has black 
rockers.
 
Kevin

------------------------------

From: SG Hartfelder <stanh@compusmart.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:45:10 -0300
Subject: Power Problem 

Hello from Edmonton where it's gone from 72F to 2 inches of snow in only one
day!

I have a question I was hoping someone could help me with.  I have a friend
that has a 1976 Toronado and it's having a problem where the battery is
draining itself of power overnight and it won't start in the morning.

What steps can you advise to diagnose where the problem is originating?
Help will be appreciated.

Stanh@compusmart.ab.ca
Edmonton, AB  CANADA
1938 Oldsmobile - Street Rod

------------------------------

From: SG Hartfelder <stanh@compusmart.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:27:46 -0300
Subject: Walkerville 

On the filrewall plate of my 1938 Olds it says (among other things):

General Motors of Canada Limited
Made in GM Canada
OSHAWA  WALKERVILLE  REGINA
Model 8-38-19

I know where OSHAWA and REGINA are but does anyone know where WALKERVILLE
is?  I called General Motors (customer assistance) in Ontario and even they
had no idea where Walkerville is.  Could they have built Oldsmobiles there
or maybe it was just a Distribution Site......

stanh@compusmart.ab.ca
1938 Oldsmobile - Street Rod

------------------------------

From: Blue Cross - Stan H <stanh@compusmart.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:44:36 -0300
Subject: [none]



------------------------------

From: Blue Cross - Stan H <stanh@compusmart.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:43:37 -0300
Subject: [none]



------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:39:41 -0300
Subject: Re: Entombed Cars 

At 02:21 PM 4/10/96 -0300, you wrote:
>Article in the paper here this morning about a guy in Maine who uncovered 
>a '54 Corvette with a couple of thousand miles on it. It had been sealed 
>up in a "tomb" since the mid-50s when the original owner built a building 
>around it. Reportedly the lowest-mileage and most original '54 Vette in 
>the world (though I don't think I'd want to have to try and start it 
>after sitting that long). Standing around the water cooler, chatting 
>about it, this reminded one of the boys in the office about a '56 
>Continental Mark II that was found here locally a couple of years 
>ago under somewhat similar circumstances. That one worked fine when 
>started after sleeping for 30 years or so.
>
>Anyone ever find an OLDS in such circumstances, or similar, like a barn 
>under a pile of straw, etc., that was mint? Or any good urban legends 
>about such things? Just curious.


Funny you should ask...

Two years ago (Feb '94), my neighbor's father died.
My neighbor knew that I was an old car fanatic with an interest in
Oldsmobiles, and he casually mentioned that his father had had an older car
that hadn't been started, let alone driven, for a least 8 years.  It
had been parked in a garage and essentially ignored all this time. 

My neighbor is not at all a car person, and he was looking to sell this car,
but he was worried that it wouldn't start because it had sat so long.  He also
mentioned that he had no idea what it would be worth.  He
mentioned that this car was an Oldsmobile Cutlass, but he wasn't sure of
the year or much else about it.

I told him that I would be glad to help him try to start it, and that I
might be interested in buying it.  On the day we went over to his father's
house, I had no idea what I would find.  What I DID find was at once exciting
and disappointing.  The exciting part was that it really was the proverbial
old lady's car driven only to church on Sundays.  The car was a '69 Cutlass S
two door coupe, with, get this, 7,500 miles on the odometer.  Not 75,000, but
7,500.  It was dark blue with a black vinyl top. 

The car had spent the earlier part of its life outdoors, so there was some 
fading of the paint and rear shelf, but mechanically the car was solid with 
a capital S, and there was no rust anywhere with the exception of some
oxidation of 
the chrome bumpers.

The disappointing part was that the car was about as stripped a model as you
could
buy.  (I had been hoping it would be a convertible, but oh well.)  
It didn't have a V8, but rather the Oldsmobile "Actionline 6" in-line six
cylinder engine.  The original decal on the air cleaner said this.  
The engine had a 250 cubic inch displacement, I believe.
It had no options to speak of save an automatic transmission.  It had those ugly
plain hupcaps where the rims are painted the color of the car, rather than
full wheel
covers.  It didn't even have a radio.

It was fun to poke around in the glove box.  I'm sure it hadn't been opened
since
the day the car left the showroom floor.  The owner's manual packet,
including the
protect-o-plate, looked unopened and brand new.  I swear that the air in the
glove
box smelled like 1969.  The trunk was the same way.  It had a few blankets
stored
in it, but it looked immaculate, with no evidence the jack had ever been
touched.

Heck, with only 7,500 miles on the clock, it's likely that the tires were
original, as
were the fan belts, oil filter, hoses, etc.  It hadn't had enough miles on
it to get
to some of the more major routine maintenance (tune-up, transmission fluid,
etc.).  
In fact, I wouldn't have been surprised if it still had its original oil in
it.  
Changing the oil every 7,500 miles was once a very common recommendation.


We did get it started without much trouble.  The gasoline was still ok, and
after
putting in new plugs, a new battery, cleaning the points, and spraying with 
starting fluid, it started.  The engine was not seized.  It took about ten 
minutes of careful back and forth motion to get the transmission to shift 
from P into R.  

I ended up not buying the car because I just didn't see all that much excitement
in it, and I was working on the other two Olds's in my garage.  Like I said,
though,
if it had been a convertible, or at least a well-optioned coupe, I would
very likely
have bought it.

He did sell it without much trouble.  After consulting the Old Cars Price
Guide, and
considering that it was a very low mileage (adds to the value) but poorly
optioned 
(subtracts from the value) car, we settled on an asking price of $2500.  He sold
it a few weeks later to a guy from Illinois for $2250.  The buyer was a guy
who said
that he bought cars like this to drive them.  He was going to use it as his
daily
to and from work driver.





************************************************
Daniel A. Gulino
Associate Professor and Graduate Chairman
Department of Chemical Engineering
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio  45701-2979
(614) 593-1495
(614) 593-0873 (fax)
gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu
http://www.ent.ohiou.edu/che/faculty/gulino.html
************************************************

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:42:48 -0300
Subject: RE: misc... 

At 14.23 04,10,96 -0300, you wrote:
>
>
>
>Mr. Urban: You have a BB Olds 2x4 intake, eh? Hmmmm, If I use big block heads
>on that small block engine, will your bog block intake fit right on? :)
>
>Maybe if you took a run at it!
>
>Attachment Converted: C:\ITW\NETSHIT\REmisc.
>

what file format was that attachment?...so that i can extract it...
                    Zack
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\ "That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
 *************

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:04:55 -0300
Subject: Olds FAQ 

Someone mentioned "where is it" over the past day or two.  My answer, "it's 
getting there!".  I really beleive it will be ready to be sent out Friday 
afternoon CST.

For those chomping at the bit, here's the table of contents.  Enjoy for now 
:)!

David Brown
dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu    (312) 702-9157
"Oldsmobile - powerful roadsters with big V8s"
- --------------------

A. OLDSMOBILE V-8 HISTORY
     1. The Rocket Era
     2. Generations

B. ENGINES 1949 - 1964 
     1. What CIDs
C. ENGINES 1964 - 1990 (Small and Big Block)
     1. Big Block CIDs
     2. Small Block CIDs
     3. Is It a Big Block or Small Block '64 - '90 Engine?
     4. Easy Ids
D. ENGINES 1994 - PRESENT
     1. What CIDs

E. BLOCKS 1949 - 1964
     1. Identifying the Block
F. BIG BLOCK BLOCKS 1964 - 1976
     1. Identifying A Big Block Block
     3. Big Block Block ID/Codes
     4. Big Block Functional Differences
     5. Big Block Block Casting Numbers
     6. 39, 45 Degree Cam Bank Angle
G. SMALL BLOCK BLOCKS 1964 - 1990
     1. Identifying A Small Block Block
     3. Small Block Block ID/Codes
     4. Small Block Functional Differences
     5. Small Block Block Casting Numbers
     6. 39, 45 Degree Cam Bank Angle
H. BLOCKS 1994 - PRESENT
     1. Identifying the Block

I. HEADS 1949 - 1964
     1. Identifying the Head
     2. Head ID/Codes
     3. Head Casting Numbers
     4. Valves & Flow
     5. Ports
     6. Combustion Chambers, cc's
J. HEADS 1964 - 1990
     1. Identifying A Big Block Head
     2. Identifying A Small Block Head
     3. Big Block Head ID/Codes
     4. Small Block Head ID/Codes
     5. Head Functional Differences
     6. Valves & Flow
     7. Ports
     8. Which Head Flows The Best
K. HEADS 1994 - PRESENT
     1. Identifying the Head
     2. Head ID/Codes
     3. Head Casting Numbers
     4. Valves & Flow
     5. Ports

L. CRANKS 1949 - 1990
     1. Identification
     2. Strengthening/Machining
M. CRANKS 1964 - 1990
     1. Identification
     2. Pilot Bearing
     3. Late & Early Model Flex Plate Differences
     4. Strengthening/Machining
N. CRANKS 1994 - PRESENT
     1. Identification
     2. Strengthening/Machining

O. INTAKE MANIFOLD IDENTIFICATION 1964 - 1990
P. EXHAUST MANIFOLD IDENTIFICATION 1964 - 1990

Q. PISTONS, CONNECTING RODS 1964 - 1990
     1. Identification
     2. Strengthening/Machining

R. MISCELLANEOUS PARTS IDENTIFICATION
     1. Distributors
     2. Cams
     3. Carburators
S. PICKING THE BEST BIG BLOCK
     1. What should I look for in a 455 for my performance Olds?
     2. Why Get a Toronado Engine?
     3. How to Tell If It's a Toronado Engine
     4. Summary of Used Olds 425/455 Engines
T. COMPRESSION RATIO CALCULATION AND COMARISIONS

U. 442
     1. Meaning And History
     2. Production
V. W MACHINES
     1. W-30
     2. W-31
     3. W-32
     4. W-33
     5. W-34
W. HURST/OLDS
     1. Meaning And History
     2. Production
X. CUTLASS
     1. Meaning And History
     2. Production
Y. TORONADO
     1. Meaning And History
     2. Production
Z. 88/98
     1. Meaning And History
     2. Production
AA. JETFIRE
     1. Meaning And History
     2. Production

BB. OLDSMOBILE PORT FUEL INJECTION
CC. MISCELLANEOUS
     1. Overside Lifter and Bore
     2. Olds 4 Nolt Mains
     3. Dual Exhaust Using Crossover Exhaust Manifolds
     4. Big Block In Small Block Cutlass
     5. Engine Swapping
     6. Auto Transmission Swapping
     7. Manual Transmission Swapping
     8. Differential Swapping
     9. Suspension & Brake Swapping
     10. Adding an "H" Pipe
     11. Exhaust Manifold Swapping
     12. Lightened Frames
     13. 455 Hemi
     14. Use of Adhesives, RTV, Gasket Dressings on an Olds
DD. APPLICABLE TO ALL VEHICLES
     1. Clock Repair
     2. Generator Diagnosis & Repair
     3. Removing Paint Over Spray
     4. Removing Calcium Deposits From Paint
     5. Radios, Speakers, Impedance
     6. On-line Repair Manual For All Models
     7. So You Want To Buy That Car?
     8. Removing Carbon Buildup
     9. Replacing Hydralic Fluid on Convertible Tops
EE. SOURCES OF ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
     1. Oldsmobile Mail List Server
     2. Oldsmobile Enthusiast WWW Site
     3. Oldsmobile, Division of General Motors
     4. Oldsmobile Club of America (OCA)
     5. Oldsmobile History Center
     6. GM Historical Services (Canada)
     7. R.E. Olds Transportation Museum
     8. Reference Articles
     9. Manuals
     10. Grand National WWW Site
FF. ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS
 

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 07:19:54 -0300
Subject: Re: Toronado  1966-1996

Andrew C. Green wrote:
> 
> > Oh no - one of you guys isn't gonna jump out of a Toro-shaped cake
> > smeared with WD-40 are you?  I won't be a part of that - Ok, maybe
> > I will, but go sparingly with the WD-40, please?!   :)
> 
> Would that be _with_ or _without_ the extension nozzle?
> 

Don't need extensions.  

That's why we have cars with those real loooong hoods.

The 66 Toro and Mike

- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:01:40 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: 1970 W32 

In a message dated 96-04-10 13:21:02 EDT, you write:

>Probably want to keep that 2bbl intake and carb so when the purist shows up,

>they will willingly pay more.  Good selling point also - just swap this box
>of  parts back on to make it numbers correct.

Hmm, then I'll probably want to save the stock wheelwells (to be replaced by
minitubs), the stock upper A-arms (to be replaced by tubulars), the stock
bushings (to be replaced by polygraphite).

Yeah, I think that anyone looking for an original or easy-to-restore (or even
possible to restore) SX would pass up my car *right* away! There's just too
much room for improvement to keep it stock. Besides, it was my first car, and
I can't envision ever having a reason to sell it (jeesh, I've had it for 13
years already, and I won't live forever anyway...).

Heck, I've even been pondering a mild top-chop, since I'll have to have the
windows out someday to fix the rust around them. But I'm not going to save
the strips of metal I cut out of the A-pillar or sail panels...

------------------------------

From: idaholc@primenet.com (Bill Goodnight)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:09:48 -0300
Subject: 455 Advice 

I met a guy today with a '72 Cutlass with a "stock" 455.  It was beautifully
done.  He suggested his engine combination to me for my '49 coupe.  It is a
stock 1972 engine with "C" heads and a W-30 cam.  Other than that, Hooker
headers are the only modifications.  If I were looking for a W-30  cam or
"C" heads, how could I identify them?  I am leaving for the Portland, Oregon
swap meet tomorrow, and might get a chance to find them.

Does the head/cam combo sound like a logical choice?

Bill Goodnight
Boise, Idaho
idaholc@primenet.com

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:11:21 -0300
Subject: Re: Vac hose routing for 69 cutlass

At 09:27 AM 4/10/96 -0300, you wrote:
>
>Looked up the hose routing in my 69 shop manual last night for the guy with the
>69 Cutlass S. It is in pictures, but I will do my best in words. Here Goes:
>
>350 AT w/ac 4bbl -
>
>Vac Switch:  	Top - Dist Vac Adv
>		Mid - Drivers side front carb port
>		Bot - Vacuum Tee off of intake (as below)
>
>			     Tee
>	intake ||||||||||| -------|||||||||||| Transmission
>			      |
>			      _
>			      _
>			      _
>			Vacuum Switch
>
>
>
>350 At w/ac 2bbl - 
>
>				Dist ||||| Top Port Vac Switch
>
>             Tee
>Carb ||||||-------|||||||||||||||||||||||| Mid Port Vac Switch
>              |
>	      _
>	      _
>              |
>          Tee |---|||||||| Trans
>              | 
>	      _
>	      _		     Tee
>	      _||||||||||||-------|||||||| Bot Port Vac Switch
>			      |
>			      |
>			    Intake
>
>
>The 2bbl is extremely confusing. Hopefully you have the 4!
>Hope this helps. 
>
>          ___              ___        _________
>         /   |            /   |      /         \
>        /    |           /    |     |   ___    |
>       /     |          /     |     |__|   |   |
>      /      |         /      |           /   /   
>     /       |        /       |          /   /   
>    /   /|   |       /   /|   |         /   /
>   /   /_|   |__    /   /_|   |__      /   /
>  |             |  |             |    /   /
>  |______     __|  |______     __|   /   /_____
>         |   |            |   |     |          |      Pat Clark
>         |___|            |___|     |__________|       69 442
>						      400/400
>
>   "Just your average 300+hp garage hogging, gas sucking, money pit"
>

Yeah, I do have the 4-bbl.  Thanks for the help!!

- --
Dave Paulison
69 Cutlass Supreme

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:16:02 -0300
Subject: Re: Power Problem 

>I have a question I was hoping someone could help me with.  I have a friend
>that has a 1976 Toronado and it's having a problem where the battery is
>draining itself of power overnight and it won't start in the morning.

Check the obvious first: courtesy light left on somewhere (e.g. glovebox,
trunk), or a defective/stuck-in lighter. Check out any accessory that
stays hot when the car is switched off; the other circuits are cut off
at that time and couldn't drain the battery.

The classic method for troubleshooting a slow drain is to disconnect the
positive terminal and put an ammeter across the gap so that it registers
the drain, then pull fuses one at a time from the fusebox until the drain
stops, then investigate all the components in that circuit. I think you
can use a light bulb instead of an ammeter, but I haven't tried it myself.

The weirdest overnight-drain problem I ever solved was on a '73 Cutlass.
The knob on the lighter was loose, and drooped just enough to make contact
with the rim of the socket and let the heating element do a slow burn until
the battery was dead.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:19:57 -0300
Subject: Re: Toronado  1966-1996 

>That's why we have cars with those real loooong hoods.

...and I have to drive mine from the back seat...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:37:58 -0300
Subject: Re: Power Problem

At 03:45 PM 4/10/96 -0300, you wrote:
>Hello from Edmonton where it's gone from 72F to 2 inches of snow in only one
>day!
>
>I have a question I was hoping someone could help me with.  I have a friend
>that has a 1976 Toronado and it's having a problem where the battery is
>draining itself of power overnight and it won't start in the morning.
>
>What steps can you advise to diagnose where the problem is originating?
>Help will be appreciated.
>
>Stanh@compusmart.ab.ca
>Edmonton, AB  CANADA
>1938 Oldsmobile - Street Rod
>
>
>
My 69 Cutlass did that once...turns out I had some kind of short in the
alternator.  I replaced it and haven't had any more problems.  Yours may not
be so simple, though...

- --
Dave Paulison
69 Cutlass Supreme

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:39:33 -0300
Subject: RE: misc...

At 03:42 PM 4/10/96 -0300, you wrote:
>At 14.23 04,10,96 -0300, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>Mr. Urban: You have a BB Olds 2x4 intake, eh? Hmmmm, If I use big block heads
>>on that small block engine, will your bog block intake fit right on? :)
>>
>>Maybe if you took a run at it!
>>
>>Attachment Converted: C:\ITW\NETSHIT\REmisc.
>>
>
>what file format was that attachment?...so that i can extract it...
>                    Zack
>      ___
>     /. .\
>    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
>   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
>   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
>  /___\_/___\ "That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
> *************
>
>
Zack,

There was no attachment...that is a quirk of his email reader/sender.  
- --
Dave Paulison
69 Cutlass Supreme

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:48:57 -0300
Subject: tranny & heads

Hey all,

I am having a problem with some slippage in my tranny.  It is a TH350.  It
only seems to slip when its cold (really, only during the first five minutes
after it is started cold).  Could it be bad (dry, cracked, etc.) seals?  Or
do I need to adjust the bands?  If so, how hard (or easy?) is that to do.
I've never had the tranny apart, except to change fluid & filter and put a
shift kit in.

Also, what casting number is best (preffered, recommended, whatever) and
available when looking for heads for a 350?  There are several boneyards
around here with Oldsmobiles in them...I'd like to know what to look for.

Thanks for the help... 
- --
Dave Paulison
69 Cutlass Supreme

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:54:18 -0300
Subject: Re: Walkerville

On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, SG Hartfelder wrote:
> I know where OSHAWA and REGINA are but does anyone know where WALKERVILLE
> is?  I called General Motors (customer assistance) in Ontario and even they
> had no idea where Walkerville is.  Could they have built Oldsmobiles there
> or maybe it was just a Distribution Site......

I think Walkerville is just outside of Windsor, Ont., across the river 
from Detroit. Hiram Walker distillers (Canadian Club whiskey) is located 
there if my memory is correct. 

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: lawrencr@kostabi.gdls.com (Robert Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:14:32 -0300
Subject: Re: Power Problem

> I have a question I was hoping someone could help me with.  I have a friend
> that has a 1976 Toronado and it's having a problem where the battery is
> draining itself of power overnight and it won't start in the morning.
> 
> What steps can you advise to diagnose where the problem is originating?
> Help will be appreciated.

Hey!  I had this problem.

It turned out to be a bad alternator.  If there is a bad diode(s) it will
drain your battery over time.  It was very hard to diagnois because I was
never able to measure the drain.  But, sometimes at night, if the car was
sitting all day, the alternator light would have a low glow.  Several
people (some on this list), told me it could be diodes in the alternator.
I finally put in a new alternator, and the problem went away.

If you have a small short somewhere, or a trunk or hood light stuck on,
you should be able to measure it, and track it down.

Use an ammeter, or something to measure current.  A 12V test light
may work.  You can see if there is a drain on the battery, by disconnecting
the one of the battery cables and touching one probe on the ammeter to
the disconnected cable and the other end to the battery post, the cable
was removed from.  You will always see a small drain, if you have a 
digital clock or something.  This is not enough to drain your battery.
I don't remember how much a clock will draw, but open the door and you
will see the dramatic difference between a clock and the interior light.

Do not try to measure the current between the two
battery posts.  You will blow up your ammeter.  Don't ask.

If you don't measure a drain.  Replace the alternator, and good luck.

If you do measure a drain.  Go to the fuse box.  One at a time, pull a
fuse and measure the current across the empty fuse slot.  If you see
current, you found the circuit with the short.  Now all you have to do
is find where in the circuit the short is.  Piece of cake. :)

I just read Andrew Green's post on the subject.  What he suggests is 
basically the same thing, but may be easier.

A light bulb will act as an ammeter.  If it glows, there is current
flowing though the circuit, and draining your battery.

My new Olds .sig...

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Lawrence   | 1970 Oldsmobile 98 Convertible
lawrencr@gdls.com |  ________,~-,____________\___________
(810) 825-8007    |  |               |    ~|       ___   |
                  |  ------(-o-)------------------( o )---  

------------------------------

From: "Joseph K. McCall" <jkmccall@clic.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 19:39:50 -0300
Subject: RE: Walkerville

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- ----------
From: 	Greg Beaulieu[SMTP:ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca]
Sent: 	Wednesday, April 10, 1996 4:54 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Re: Walkerville

On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, SG Hartfelder wrote:
> had no idea where Walkerville is.  Could they have built Oldsmobiles there
> or maybe it was just a Distribution Site......

I think Walkerville is just outside of Windsor, Ont., across the river 
from Detroit. Hiram Walker distillers (Canadian Club whiskey) is located 
there if my memory is correct. 


You're right, it is located just outside of Windsor, Ontario on Lake St. Clair between Windsor and Tecumseh (spelling).  

JK McCall

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End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #144
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