
oldsmobile-digest           Friday, 24 May 1996        Volume 01 : Number 184


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:12:26 -0300
Subject: Roller lifters on std cam?

Just a thought... might one use roller lifters on a std. cam???
Obviously, the duration would be thrown off, but I was a-thinkin' [you could
just smell the smoke, huh?] OK, roller is basically a skinny bottom, so lift
will begin later & end sooner that if a flat bottom tappet were there... so a
long duration camshaft becomes shorter, more streetable...

I might just do a mock-up engine and degree a regular cam with std and then
with a roller lifter, just to see what happens...

Comments?
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: lawrencr@kostabi.gdls.com (Robert Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:44:40 -0300
Subject: Re: The heat is on

> From oldsmobile-owner@ccn.cs.dal.ca Thu May 23 09:34 EDT 1996
> Date: 	Thu, 23 May 1996 13:31:19 -0300
> From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
> Organization: EDIson3, Inc.
> > Nope.  I don't buy it.  The faster the water moves through the block 
> > the better it will cool.  Unfortunately, the faster the water moves 
> > through the radiator, the less it will cool.  It's convection.
> 
> Uh, before I get confused, isn't the transfer of heat by contact 
> CONDUCTION and while convection is radiated heat?

I looked them both up in the dictionary, and I am more confused than
ever, but I still think I used the word correctly.  The transfer of
heat by contact is conduction, but heat transfer by circulation of
a fluid or air is convection.

Heat radiated into still air is conduction, because the air is not moving.
Move the air and you have convection.  Actually, that is not really true,
because by heating air, or water, from the bottom, you will cause it
to rise, and then have moving air (or water), and have convection.

If I am wrong on these concepts, please correct me.

But, I'm still sticking to my guns.  You can't move water through the
block too fast. 

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Lawrence   | 1970 Oldsmobile 98 Convertible               .^.
lawrencr@gdls.com |  _________,~--,___________\____________     /9|8\
(810) 825-8007    |  |                |~    |        ___   |    \}|{/
Sterling Hts., MI |  =------(-o-)-------------------( o )--=      v

 

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:07:02 -0300
Subject: Re: Heater water valve  

>Question 1 - short of taking the dash apart and tracing the line back to 
>             a source, is there a good way to find out if this is the right
>             line to attach to the valve?

I would connect a vacuum gauge to the suspect vacuum line and see (1) if 
there is any vacuum draw on it, and (2) whether it changes in response to 
your movement of the temperature lever inside the car.

One of the best cheap tools I ever bought was a plastic vacuum pump from
Sears. Comes with a little vacuum gauge attached to a trigger pump which
you can use to either test vacuum-operated mechanisms, or measure vacuum
being produced by some other source. Come to think of it, I think you can
supposedly pump fluids like brake fluid with the thing, too.

>Question 2 - Assuming that this is the right line, will it do the right thing?
>             i.e. open and close the valve at the right times.  

If it works at all, I'd assume it's working correctly. Uh, that is, unless
you have indeed got a bass-ackwards replacement valve. Somebody here who
knows your model of car will have to tell you that...

>Part 2 of the same question - what is the right thing anyway?  Should it
>             only apply vacuum when the AC is on, or should it usually 
>             apply vacuum and only not do so when I turn on the heater?

I would _guess_ that it should activate in either case, since the BILEVEL
setting, for example, uses both the A/C compressor and some heat input in
order to provide two different temperatures of output air via the floor
outlets and dash outlets. And in straight A/C mode, I've always found that
you can still get heat if you slide the temperature lever in the right
direction. The idea is to be able to give yourself dehumidified heat this
way, for cold, wet days when the windows are fogging up.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 15:24:15 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: What does 'corporate' mean? 

BTW have you looked at the Hemmings adds regarding W-27 rear ends?  Some 
guys are asking $2600.  These are the aluminum housing ones but the 
internals are the same as the non-aluminum "O" type.
          
          Yes, I get sick every time I see one of these ads.  As it 
          turns out, the W-27 housing is significantly weaker than the 
          iron one.  Here's a hot tip for a low-cost, higher-strength 
          W-27 replica:
          
          Get your stock, non-W-27 housing center section aluminum 
          sprayed!  Basicly this is a process wherein alumunim is 
          flame sprayed onto a steel substrate.  This is often done 
          for corrosion (rust) protection and is (or at least was, 
          before HPC) popular for headers.  The finished surface has 
          the rough appearance of cast aluminum.  
          
          Basicly you would need to sandblast the housing, mask off 
          the axle tubes with some sort of heavy guage aluminum foil, 
          and have the center section aluminum sprayed.  Look in the 
          Yellow Pages under "Metals-Coatings".  Reassemble the rear 
          end and top it off with a W-27 replica cover.  The whole 
          process, including the cover, will probably set you back 
          about $150.
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 14:32:59 -0300
Subject: 7 bladed fan

I concur. Get a nice Toro 19" 7-bladed fan, drive it via a thermo-sensitive
clutch... use the correct shroud, and the biggest radiator you can get. Esp. if
replacing a 260 with a 403 :)  -Chris-

What year Toros had this 7 bladed fan? Will it improve the cooling on my 69 442?



          ___              ___        _________
         /   |            /   |      /         \
        /    |           /    |     |   ___    |
       /     |          /     |     |__|   |   |
      /      |         /      |           /   /   
     /       |        /       |          /   /   
    /   /|   |       /   /|   |         /   /
   /   /_|   |__    /   /_|   |__      /   /
  |             |  |             |    /   /
  |______     __|  |______     __|   /   /_____
         |   |            |   |     |          |      Pat Clark
         |___|            |___|     |__________|       69 442
						      400/400

   "Just your average 300+hp garage hogging, gas sucking, money pit"

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 14:52:43 -0300
Subject: daily misc.

Please, folks, rememberto TRIM THE FAT when replying... I hate to have to
delete 50 lines of repeat-text from each of 7 replies to the original question
every day.... Thanks.

> From: John D Bartusek <bart@cmf.nrl.navy.mil>
> Subject: Re: Timing Chain (was Re: Time to Dump?)
> Hey, does either my '69 or my '71 Cutlass' 350 V8's have this
> nylon timing gear.  What is the life span of these gears?

Both should if original. I've seen '64 330's to the latest '85 roller-cam 307
with 6A heads using them plastic toothed sprockets... We pretty well
established the lifespan as 80K to 120K miles, or, the first time the occasion
arises to get in there...  -Chris-

> But ethylene glycol/water mix is not the same as air.  Ethylene glycol does
> not absorb heat as well (some cobwebs in my brain from a physics course
- --snip--
excellent material for a FAQ addition... This, and the timing/ cylinder
pressure/ etc. discussion offered up by ? Bob? I think.... -Chris-

> While I was replacing the voltage regulator the other day on my '68, I
> noticed something that seemed strange. Just to the left of the washer
> pump, and a few inches to the right of the regulator, is a small
> depression in the firewall very near the top, about 1/2" wide by 1 1/4"
> long. There are two holes in the depression about 1/4" to 3/8" in
> diameter, one above the other. The holes appear to lead directly into the
> cowl.

So, plug them. Do they appear factory- made? I have seen holes where you'd
think they don't belong... into the venturi area of a std. 2V carb! Apparently
factory-done, no explanation for it. At least the 2V gaskets that have giant
air leaks into the carb base we can blame on boneheaded rebuilders... but,
holes from dirty air to inside the venturi area?!?!?  [Gee, there's more
gaskets in this kit than we need... which one to use? The one that matches the
carb base? Nah, let's use this one that has 'extra' air inlet passages, more
power, yeah!] -Chris-

> Big Block Heads:
> 1 set of G's with 2.072"/1.625" valves Casting # 409 100 (all rotators)
> (complete) $75.00

***Bargain!***  Big-vlave heads for cheap. -Chris-

> What temperature does an Olds TVS switch at?

My 68-9 manuals list oh, what was it, 243 degrees F, I think... -Chris-

> Every engine I have built uses good old fashioned steel gears and chain.  The
> use of the nylon gears was because they are quiet. With fan blades spinning,
> A/C compressor, P/S pump whining, etc. I never could understand the need for
> quiet unreliable timing gears. Such were used widely throughout GM.
> Bob Handren

GM's loss for not hiring you & me to design stuff, Bob... :)

>  Yes, I did run this ad several months ago.  I was waiting
> to sell it to a friend but his wife changed his mind.

Dontcha just HATE when someone else changes your mind for ya? :)

- --Hot '70 442--
> I would appreciate your opinion on the price.  I do NEED to sell this very

Sounds like a lot of car for the $ to me, but my budget is in the 10's these
days... I had to dip into the truck's quarters stash at Padnos the other day.
Found a pair of ordinary xst manifolds, and a pair of really pretty rear
control arms with stabilizer bar mounts... in a GM bag, but they don't look NOS
to me... There was a 1973 "OK" code TH400, too, seems it was from a 88/98 with
the 455-4V and duals. Wonder where that engine [and xst manifolds!] be?!
- -Chris-

> > While I was replacing the voltage regulator the other day on my '68, I
> > noticed something that seemed strange. Just to the left of the washer
> > pump, and a few inches to the right of the regulator, is a small
> > depression in the firewall very near the top, about 1/2" wide by 1 1/4"
> > long. There are two holes in the depression about 1/4" to 3/8" in
> > diameter, one above the other. The holes appear to lead directly into the
> > cowl.

Oh, that's the ultra-rare W-HY option, part of a package that includes the
holes in the carb, chrome thru-the-hood pins, hot pink wiper blades, SpitFire
[sic] spark plugs (taper seat only if not originally so equipped),
silicone-sealed head bolts, one low-compression piston, wooden rear bumper,
etc. :)

> ok...I am looking for an engine...its a 1965 235or 265 V8...it was an
> aluminum block and heads......the reason i am looking for this is because a
> friend of mine has an MG and this engine is ALMOST a direct fit...cool an
> olds MG

Shoulda said something a week ago. The one at Padnos is gone. The guy in MI
here who does them said he has about 50 on hand, would not be worth even $100
to him, so I just told him where it was- maybe he shagged it himself.

> PS...i do have a confirmation of solid webs on certain 77 403s...more later

Confirmation, sure, but can you get *photographic proof* ?!?!? That's what we
need here, proof, I say! Proof for the web page! A VIN off the block! -Chris-

> BTW have you looked at the Hemmings adds regarding W-27 rear ends?  Some
> guys are asking $2600.  These are the aluminum housing ones but the
> internals are the same as the non-aluminum "O" type.
> Nick DiGiovanni

Well, F heads $1200, you know... can't run with the pack if ya still pee like a
puppy! You gots to pay to play... one of them cute sayings must apply here.
- -Chris-

> >>                  1970 OLDS 442 FOR SALE
> >>   RED  , BLACK INTERIOR,  MATCHING #, HIS /HER SHIFTER,   NEW  PAINT,

Gee, I wish I could snip all 500 lines of this AGAIN! I for one would really
apprecitate it if y'all would DELETE unnecessary lines BEFORE you mail your
reply... -Chris-


- --Diesels--
> > work with no spark (once warmed up) by having compression ratios like 25:1.
> >  The heat produced by such a high compression ignites the fuel/air mixture
> > all by itself.  So there are all sorts of sources for heat and spark
> > ignition.

Well, technically, there is no 'fuel-air mixture' in a Diesel; the fuel is
injected into the air, which was heated by the act of compression, and burns
upon injection, ignited by the heat of the compressed air. Injection timing is
typically altered much as is spark timing, to best utilize the engine's current
operating conditions: load, speed, etc. -Chris-

> This reminds me of the time I first heard about vacuum retard units,
> and cringed at the thought!

How... retarded! Heh. -Chris-

> >      Generators haven't been used on most domestic cars since the early 60's
>
> So . . . . are most car mfrs too lazy to change the idiot lights?  I've
> seen 70's and up cars say GEN on the dash, not ALT.  :)

Well, they still 'generate' electricity, right? The predecessor to ALT might
have been DIR otherwise... [DIRect current vs. ALTernating current]

> I always thought that his/her shifter was a fancy name for the Dual Gate?

I agree.

> P.S.  Why would anyone want to use metallic pads?  Have you
>       seen the way they chew up rotors?

Well, I just did the brakes on the Ford truck. They had 'mettalic' pads,
allright... as in "rivets & backing plate". They now have "semi-metallic" pads,
according to the box they came in. Half backing plate, half brake pad, I guess.
:)  The greatest 'advantage' of the metallic brake pads is the deep grooves
they produced in the rotors, thus enabling me to buy new ones [next time...].
As you are aware, I'm sure, those grooves make more surface area than a simple
flat smooth surface, so braking efficiency is improved. :)  I need all the
braking I can get right now, so I re-used the rotors as is. -Chris-

>     Anyone need a schematic for the GM hot-starter-solenoid fix?

Sure, why not!

- --Pat's dist'r--
> It's me again. Been out for two days, over two hundred new messages! Chris,
> funny you should mention the TVS because I posted a question on my new one
> earlier. The new switch has a 1, D , 2 molded into the side of it next to each
> port. I assumed the D meant distributor, the 1 initial vac source, and the 2 s
          ^^^^^^^
Now, you get to find out for SURE!

econdary vac source. The trouble is that these hose routings do not match my
> service manual so it could indeed be hooked up wrong. Will be playing with it
> this weekend.

Well, easy enough... engine idling, check vacuum at the dist'r hose- if not
0-2" Hg, it's wrong. Swap 1 & 2. Is OK now? If not, then get ported vacuum from
the correct carb port [lower LH side??]- check for 0-2" vac. at idle... run
that to whichever port on the TVS is connected to D at low temps. Run full
manifold vacuum to other TVS port. Assuming that D is correctly labelled as the
Dist'r port of course. -Chris-

> Uh, before I get confused, isn't the transfer of heat by contact
> CONDUCTION and while convection is radiated heat?

Ah-nope. conduction is thru a single medium, as thru the cast iron from the hot
cylinder to the water jacket, or thru the radiator's tubes and fins. Convection
is the fluid-solid interaction at the surface of say the block's water jacket,
the radiator tubes' inside surface, or the radiator tubes' and fins' outside
surface. Radiation can occur even in a vacuum, with no fluid present, and
generally constitutes a small percentage of the total heat transfer in engine
cooling. I recall having a discussion about this with a friend when we were
about 12, he wanted to paint his motorcycle's cylinder flat black, 'to radiate
heat better' I tried to explain that it's not radiation that's the key, and in
fact the paint is but another barrier for the heat to go thru, but he was not
buying it... I claimed that the paint was for appearances only, but w/o data to
back it up, what can I do? -Chris-

> Question 1 - short of taking the dash apart and tracing the line back to
>              a source, is there a good way to find out if this is the right
>              line to attach to the valve?

No other lines nearby, no other place for that line, it reaches the port... If
it looks like a duck... walks like a duck... sounds like a duck...
  There's s'posed to be a color stripe on it to identify it... -Chris-

> Question 2 - Assuming that this is the right line, will it do the right thing?

Yeah, IFF [sic] the valve is corrctly configured and the in-dash stuff is
operating as it should.

> Part 2 of the same quesiton - what is the right thing anyway?  Should it
>              only apply vacuum when the AC is on, or should it usually
>              apply vacuum and only not do so when I turn on the heater?

Depends on the vehicle, design thereof... need a service manual for those
details... you can simply test it with common sense: Is there vacuum at the
hose with 1- heater on full blast and 2- with AC on MAX [i.e. heater definitely
off...]. Then, apply vacuum to the valve; does it flow coolant with or w/o
vacuum? Does this match what your car's vacuum signal seems to require? It's up
to you...
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 15:04:50 -0300
Subject: Re: 1970 Olds 442 

At 03.53 05,23,96 -0300, you wrote:
>Buddha wrote:
>
>> >>
>> >WHY ARE YOU YELLING?  What is a His/Her Shifter?  Anybody?
>> 
>> i believe the his hers shifter is the lightning rods
>>                zack
>
>I always thought that his/her shifter was a fancy name for the Dual Gate? 

you are right...about 5 minutes after i posted i was kicking myself because
i realized i was wrong...sorry...
               zack

>-- 
>Jason P. Labay (Akron, Ohio)				  z28cfi@gwis.com
>Grad Student in Sport Administration at Kent State U.     f-list since: 7/95
>1988 Camaro Z/28 Cross-Fire Injection 305
>1975 Hurst/Olds W-25
>
>
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\         "I only kill to know i'm alive"
 *************

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 15:06:07 -0300
Subject: Re: V8 

At 20.04 05,22,96 -0300, you wrote:
>Buddha wrote:
>> 
>> ok...I am looking for an engine...its a 1965 235or 265 V8...it was an
>> aluminum block and heads......the reason i am looking for this is because a
>> friend of mine has an MG and this engine is ALMOST a direct fit...cool an
>> olds MG
>>                          zack
>> PS...i do have a confirmation of solid webs on certain 77 403s...more later

>The only Olds production aluminum block/head engine that I know of is 
>the 215 CI V8 of 1961-63.  That engine is rather wide but very light.  
>It fills up my 1962 Jetfire so that the air-conditioning compressor is 
>mounted well under the driver's side of the engine and the power brake 
>booster is mounted under the brake pedal inside the car and the resevoir 
>for air storage is mounted way up on the right front fender.
>
>Horsepower is good - even the two-barrels.  The turbocharged ones are 
>about equal to a Mustang 289 four-barrel in performance even with the 
>Olds Slim Jim.  I have known people to use these light things for 
>ultralite airplanes.   
>
>Bill Culp
>
>

so does anyone out there have one? for sale?
                    Zack
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\         "I only kill to know i'm alive"
 *************

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 16:04:28 -0300
Subject: Re: misc stuff 

You cannot beat the instant throttle response of a good Olds 2V setup.... 
depends on what rear gears you end up with, but if the gears are the same, keep 
the 2V setup, I say...
          
          No, sorry, I've got to disagree with this one.  Keep in mind 
          the carb design and sizing is, by definintion, a compromise 
          to maintain airflow velocity and fuel atomization over the 
          operating range of the engine.  Any 2bbl carb will of 
          necessity have venturies which are too big at low rpm (when 
          you stomp on it) and too small at high rpm.  The Q-Jet (or 
          any spreadbore) gets around this compromise with it's two 
          miniscule primary barrels (high airflow rate, good 
          atomization, good gas milage, good throttle response at low 
          rpm) and it's two massive secondaries for WOT.  Obviously, 
          an improperly set up Q-Jet will not have good throttle 
          response (accelerator pump not set properly, misadjusted 
          secondary air valve, linkage not set properly, etc...).  My 
          experience has been that when properly adjusted, the Q-Jet 
          provides a very satisfying response to a mashed pedal, 
          especially when the secondaries open up!
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 14:25:43 -0300
Subject: Re: Q's 

>> Generators haven't been used on most domestic cars since the early 60's.
>
> So . . . . are most car mfrs too lazy to change the idiot lights?  I've 
> seen 70's and up cars say GEN on the dash, not ALT.  :)

Maybe they think that the average driver _might_ figure out that "GEN"
might have something to do with GENerating electricity, whereas "ALT"
would probably leave them baffled.

My gripe is GM's stupid decision to spell "gauge" as "gage" everywhere --
dashboard, service manuals, etc. Okay, it's hard to spell correctly (the
new Sears Hardware in Rolling Meadows, IL has an entire aisle of electrical
parts where every single shelf label has the word spelled "guage" :-) but
deciding that this dumbed-down spelling will be Corporate Policy looks even
dumber, IMHO.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 15:31:45 -0300
Subject: Internal regulator conversion

At 02:16 AM 5/23/96 -0300, you wrote:
>
>
>On Fri, 17 May 1996, David Paulison wrote:
>
>> Yes, please post that...I'm considering converting to HEI soon, and would
>> like to convert to internal regulator at the same time.  From what you said,
>> the external regulator remains in place?  Just doesn't function anymore,
>> retains "original" look, right?
>
>As requested:
>

Thank You!!

One question:  will the steel fan from the 10SI fit on the 12SI (to replace
the plastic one)?

- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

 "I was put on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things;
    right now I'm so far behind, I'll never die"  --Calvin

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 15:22:50 -0300
Subject: Re: spark timing / TVS switches

At 10:45 PM 5/22/96 -0300, you wrote:

>> But, cylinder pressures
>>increase when the spark is advanced.  Doesn't this produce more heat?
>> 
>>Kevin Wong
>>
>>Huh?  Is that true?  I don't quite understand that.  Like if I have a 9:1
>>CR, I could increase it to 9.25:1 by advancing spark??  That doesn't make
>>any sense to me.  Please explain...
>
>What Kevin is talking about is the pressure produced by the burning fuel/air
>mixture, not the compression ratio which is a static mechanical ratio of
>volumes.         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  

I knew that.  That's what confused me.


>Fuel/air mixtures do not burn instantaneously, they take time.  Igniting the
>mixture before top dead center (BTDC) allows the burn to start before the end
>of the compression stroke.  If timed right this can dramatically increase the
>pressure in the cylinder and the work (torque) the engine produces.  If
>pre-ignition occurs the fuel burn wave from the spark plug collides with the
>fuel burn wave from the pre-ignited part resulting in knock, ping, clatter
>and all those other expensive sounds. Excessive heat, glowing pieces of metal
>or carbon in the combustion chamber, etc. can generate pre-ignition.  Diesels
>work with no spark (once warmed up) by having compression ratios like 25:1.
> The heat produced by such a high compression ignites the fuel/air mixture
>all by itself.  So there are all sorts of sources for heat and spark
>ignition.
>
>For gasoline engines the trick is to design an ignition timing curve that
>provides the maximum spark the engine can tolerate without suffering
>pre-ignition.  This will result in the highest tolerable cylinder pressures
>and engine power.  This maximum point can vary because of many factors such
>as octane, engine operating temp, rpm, combustion chamber design and more.
> High octane fuels are less susceptible to spontaneous ignition and can thus
>tolerate higher static compression ratios and/or advanced timing.
>
>Does that make sense?
>

Yes, thank you..
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

 "I was put on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things;
    right now I'm so far behind, I'll never die"  --Calvin

------------------------------

From: <tc75918@hpr169.mdhc.mdc.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 15:39:34 -0300
Subject: Re: The heat is on

> 
> In a message dated 96-05-21 14:50:57 EDT, you write:
> 
> A cars cooling system is _designed_ to use a thermostat.  Without one the
> coolant can go through the radiator so quickly that there is insufficient
> time for it to transfer heat through the radiatior.  It might make the car
> run hotter, not cooler.

OK, so the water doesn't cool as much in the radiator cause it's flowing
through faster.  But then it's flowing through the engine equally faster
so it doesn't get as hot either, right?  Sooo, not being cooled as much
in the radiator would be OK cause it's not getting as hot before it
enters it.  (I have no idea if this is really true or not.  It just seems
kinda logical to me.  Is it?)

- --Dan

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 16:01:54 -0300
Subject: Re: spark timing / TVS switches 

In a message dated 96-05-22 23:55:58 EDT, you write:

>I'd be careful about your use of the term 'pre-ignition'
>in relation to too much spark as I'm sure there are a few people
>hanging around rec.autos.tech who could say a few things about 
>that! 

You're absolutely right.  The term I was searching for is spontaneous
combustion.  Hey, I know what I meant.  It bugs me when people don't get my
drift by divine inspiration. ;-)


>"Smog" engines typically had much lower compression ratios.  Wouldn't
>this make combustion less efficient, especially in combination with
>a retarded ignition timing?  I guess by this question, I'm now assuming
>that combustion is less efficient during lower pressures.
>
>

I _think_ the efficiency versus compression ratio goes all the way back to
the "revolutionary" first OHV Olds V-8, also known then as the Kettering V-8
after the Olds engineer most responsible for its design.  Besides the
increased efficiency of the OHV design,  higher compression ratio engines are
more efficient at producing power from a given amount of gasoline.  His plans
were to evolve the design into very high compression ratios where even better
gains are possible. This is why race engines use high compression ratios.
 They make more power per pound of fuel burned.  Of course this assumes the
higher octane fuels to compliment such ratios are available.  110 octane fuel
at the drag strip was over $5.00 a gallon the last time I checked. Let's see,
the SX has a 20 gallon tank.  Wow, a $100+ fill up!  I don't think so.

My point is that efficiency of work production (torque) isn't the same as
combustion efficiency when talking about polluting emissions.  Combustion
efficiency and the release of fewer unburned hydrocarbons is one of the major
goals of pollution abatement.  The reason for the switch to lower compression
ratios was probably coincidental with the realization that eventually the
lead was coming out of fuels.  In the mid-late 70's low lead fuel came about
at the same time as the spark retard designs.  The engineers knew cat cons
were coming and those cars were required to use unleaded fuel.  The lead
itself was a pollutant as well.  Tetra-ethyl lead was a cheap way to increase
octane ratings.  100 plus octane unleaded fuel is not that easy/cheap to
make.  So, as with most things in life, I suspect the easy and cheapest road
was taken.  

Chrysler actually continued to make high compression engines post 1970, for a
year or two at least.  But with the octane ratings coming down who would buy
a car for which you could not readily get fuel  -  except some of us of
course!  We build 'em and then worry about the octane availability.

>Can anyone suggest any good reading material regarding combustion
>efficiency, compression ratios, spark timing, engine thermodynamics etc. ?

Look for back issues of Hot Rod, Car Craft, Pop Hot Rodding, Popular Science,
Mechanics Illustrated and even the various "Musclecar Review/Restore"
magazines.

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 16:01:46 -0300
Subject: Re: 1970 Olds 442 

In a message dated 96-05-22 23:49:22 EDT, you write:

>i believe the his hers shifter is the lightning rods
>               zack
>
>

Nope, it's the Hurst Dual Gate.  Only one shift lever but two slots.  The
"normal" (Hers) has the shift detents (stops) the same as most any other
automatic console shifter.  The outer (His) uses a detent system that if you
keep the pressure away from you it is possible to limit the shifter travel to
one gear at a time without jumping all the way to neutral.

Popular shifter in GTO's, H/O's, 442's etc. from about '67-75??

Go to a car show and look around, you'll see one they don't look anything
like multiple snake heads of the Lightning Rods.

Bob Handren
'67 W-30 Modified
'70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 15:15:32 -0300
Subject: Re: The heat is on 

>OK, so the water doesn't cool as much in the radiator cause it's flowing
>through faster.  But then it's flowing through the engine equally faster
>so it doesn't get as hot either, right?  Sooo, not being cooled as much
>in the radiator would be OK cause it's not getting as hot before it
>enters it.  (I have no idea if this is really true or not.  It just seems
>kinda logical to me.  Is it?)

Well... there are all kinds of complications here: How much hot surface
area needs to be cooled in the engine? How much radiator surface area
is available to carry off heat from the coolant?

The reason I suggested a while back that the restrictor plate replacement
for the thermostat was more likely for the engine's benefit instead of
the radiator's was because I could see how increased coolant flow through
the engine might not carry off heat properly, but IMHO the flow through
the radiator was a lot more efficient in terms of heat dissipation (you
get to spread it out over a wide area, and optimize the construction of
the radiator to do nothing but disperse heat), so you could speed up the
coolant flow through the radiator without raising the output temperature
too badly.

Coming up in our next installment: Shorter sentences!

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "C. K. Yee" <yu135008@yorku.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 16:51:27 -0300
Subject: Re: spark timing, compression ratios

> My point is that efficiency of work production (torque) isn't the same as
> combustion efficiency when talking about polluting emissions.  Combustion
> efficiency and the release of fewer unburned hydrocarbons is one of the major
> goals of pollution abatement.  The reason for the switch to lower compression
> ratios was probably coincidental with the realization that eventually the
> lead was coming out of fuels.  In the mid-late 70's low lead fuel came about

In addition, the lower compression ratios reduced peak combustion
temperatures (NOx formation increases dramatically above 2500F)
to lower nitrogen oxide emissions.  Today, with 3-way catalysts
and electronic controls, many engines are back at over 10:1 
compression. (e.g. Aurora V8 and the LT1)

Kevin Wong

------------------------------

From: Jeff Hunter <jchunter@xcelco.on.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 17:02:01 -0300
Subject: Olds IRC Meeting 

Hi Folks!

Just a reminder that there is an Olds Mailing list meeting tonight at 8:30
EDT....

Thanks Alot!

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 17:18:14 -0300
Subject: Std lifters/ roller cam

- --roller lifters on std cam--
> Obviously, the duration would be thrown off, but I was a-thinkin' [you could
> just smell the smoke, huh?] OK, roller is basically a skinny bottom, so lift
> will begin later & end sooner that if a flat bottom tappet were there... so a
> long duration camshaft becomes shorter, more streetable...

OK, so suppose we use std lifters on a roller cam... take that 6A heads 85 307
[please... :) ] and convert to flat botom lifters... duratio goes UP, though
lift remains at a really lame 0.400"... so, the engine SOUNDS rowdy, but has no
bite to back it up... perfect for sale to the local "gangstas" who want their
car to sound hot...
  'course, the edge of the lifter might just dig into the cam's ramp, chew it
up in about 10 minutes... more research is needed.
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: bryce_smith@442.com (Bryceman)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 17:49:42 -0300
Subject: Re: 7 bladed fan 

>I concur. Get a nice Toro 19" 7-bladed fan, drive it via a thermo-sensitive
>clutch... use the correct shroud, and the biggest radiator you can get. Esp. if
>replacing a 260 with a 403 :)  -Chris-

Hey Chris, have you ever looked really close at one of those 7 bladed fans?
After scouring all of the grime and paint off the one which came on the
Apprehender I was surprised to find a little oval :(  ford :( logo about
1/4 inch in diameter. Hmmm, could ford have made fans which were purchased
by GM and used on Oldses as factory equipment? Anyone Else?


 EXCESSIVE IRON rules the road!
'65 442
'66 Dynamic 88 B07 Apprehender
 bryceman@442.com
 www.442.com

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 16:19:22 -0300
Subject: Re: Roller lifters on std cam?

At 01:12 PM 5/23/96 -0300, you wrote:
>Just a thought... might one use roller lifters on a std. cam???

>
>I might just do a mock-up engine and degree a regular cam with std and then
>with a roller lifter, just to see what happens...
>
>Comments?

Yes, I was at once considering using a standard cam with roller lifters when
I rebuild my engine (work is slated to begin before the next century ;-) ).
Your observations, however, never entered my mind.  It would be interesting
to see what kind of difference changing just the lifters from standard to
roller in the same engine would make.  Might be a good idea to build an
engine that way, might not.  
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

 "I was put on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things;
    right now I'm so far behind, I'll never die"  --Calvin

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 16:12:53 -0300
Subject: Re: V8

At 12:34 AM 5/23/96 -0300, you wrote:

>PS...i do have a confirmation of solid webs on certain 77 403s...more later
>                    
>
Well, let's hear it!  Some pictures would be nice, too!

- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

 "I was put on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things;
    right now I'm so far behind, I'll never die"  --Calvin

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 19:18:03 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Q's 

My gripe is GM's stupid decision to spell "gauge" as "gage" everywhere -- 
dashboard, service manuals, etc. 

        Look, CAFE is difficult for everybody.  All those extra "u"s add 
        weight to the car, when the objective is to improve fuel 
        economy.  Obviously related to the ACDelco dropped hyphen 
        decision. :)
        
        Joe Padavano
        jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
        
        66 442
        68 W-30
        69 H/O
        70 W-30

------------------------------

From: Mike Coccagna <mikec@pop.kis.net>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 19:27:58 -0300
Subject: Re: V8

>> PS...i do have a confirmation of solid webs on certain 77
> 403s...more later

Tease!

Mike
'91 W-40 Quad442

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 18:23:25 -0300
Subject: Re: misc stuff

On Thu, 23 May 1996, Chris Brown Witt wrote:
> Precisely correct. Then, the "fiber" or nylon pcs of tooth fall off, go clog up
> the oil pump. Since the oil pan 'has to' come off to change the timing chain
> anyhow... clean out the inlet screen as well at that time...  -Chris-

And then he wrote:

> Approx. Costs per engine:
> $60   gasket set
> $50   rings
> $30   timing set
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> $85   all bearings
> $100  valve job
> $30   oil pump
> $35   lifters
> $100  cam

Now Chris, I'm going to take issue with you here. I know the service 
manual says the pan has to come off to remove the timing cover. I also 
know you have done it without doing that. Regardless, if you do want to 
refresh the oil pump and the timing set then the pan has to come off. So 
those prices are parts only, right? No value for labor...

> > Q3:    Should I consider upgrading to a 4 barrel intake and carb?
> >     Power is not bad currently with the 2 barrel but if the improvement
> >     was significant for not too much $$ and I could do it myself, I might
> >     be interested.
> 
> You cannot beat the instant throttle response of a good Olds 2V setup....
> depends on what rear gears you end up with, but if the gears are the same, keep
> the 2V setup, I say...

Trouble is, I have yet to talk with anyone who has found a foolproof way
to make the 2-bbl work properly for any length of time. I'm on my second
rebuilt in just a couple of years. Thing still misbehaves. Go with the
4-bbl, I say. 

Must be brave today, disagreeing with *the* Rocket Scientist!
:)

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 17:21:27 -0300
Subject: Re: 7 bladed fan 

>Hey Chris, have you ever looked really close at one of those 7 bladed fans?
>After scouring all of the grime and paint off the one which came on the
>Apprehender I was surprised to find a little oval :(  ford :( logo about
>1/4 inch in diameter. Hmmm, could ford have made fans which were purchased
>by GM and used on Oldses as factory equipment? Anyone Else?

Yeah, this sounds familiar. Can't put my finger on it, but I've heard of
this kind of thing turning up elsewhere. Most likely it's a case of some
OEM supplier selling to both car companies and having some sort of tragic
mixup on the loading dock.  :-)  Although I thought that Ford was one of
those companies that liked to make everything themselves and not buy from
other suppliers, so...?

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 19:36:28 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: The heat is on 

...Sooo, not being cooled as much >in the radiator would be OK cause it's 
not getting as hot before it >enters it....<snip>...
          
...The reason I suggested a while back that the restrictor plate 
replacement for the thermostat was more likely for the engine's 
benefit instead of the radiator's was because I could see how 
increased coolant flow through the engine might not carry off heat 
properly...

        My turn.  Keep in mind that there are a lot of variables in 
        this heat transfer equation.  Heat transfer rate from the 
        block to the coolant depends on the difference in temperature 
        between the two, among other things.  The greater the delta T, 
        the higher the heat transfer rate.  All else being equal 
        (which it obviously isn't), the delta T between the block and 
        the coolant will be greater than the delta T between the 
        radiator (which runs at about the same temperature as the 
        coolant) and the air.  The result is that the coolant would 
        absorb more heat from the block than it would reject in the 
        radiator.
        
        Now obviously there is a difference in surface area, 
        conductivity of the metals, fins on the radiator, etc., but 
        the more time a unit volume of coolant spends in the radiator, 
        the more heat it rejects.  Also, the temperature of the 
        coolant is not constant, but varies considerably with its 
        location in the system.  Neither is the flow rate constant in 
        all parts of the system, as coolant is constantly circulating 
        in the block and heads (via the water pump), but not 
        necessarily flowing at the same rate through the radiator.  
        Also, since the therostat is the "exit" from the block for the 
        coolant, the restrictor does, in fact, control the flow rate 
        through the radiator, not the engine. 
        
        I apologize for this disjointed response.  I've been trying to 
        follow this thread, and a number of thoughts have come to mind 
        (not to mention having to deal with annoyances such as having 
        to do _work_ in the meantime!)
        
        Joe Padavano
        jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
        
        66 442
        68 W-30
        69 H/O
        70 W-30

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 18:41:45 -0300
Subject: Re: 7 bladed fan

On Thu, 23 May 1996, Bryceman wrote:

> >Hey Chris, have you ever looked really close at one of those 7 bladed fans?
> >After scouring all of the grime and paint off the one which came on the
> >Apprehender I was surprised to find a little oval :(  ford :( logo about
> >1/4 inch in diameter. Hmmm, could ford have made fans which were purchased
> >by GM and used on Oldses as factory equipment? Anyone Else?

I happen to have in my hand a nicely restored 5-blade clutch fan - OK, 
it's actually sitting here next to me - that I was thinking of installing 
in the Cutlass. It has the oval logo on each blade. But I think you need 
to clean yours a little better, Bryce - there's a "B" in the oval, and 
the word "Brookside" stamped above it.

Would a 5-blade clutch provide sufficient airflow to cool the thing, 
folks? Couldn't track down a 6-blader...

Also re. those firewall holes, yeah, I intend to plug them, just curious 
as to whether they were *ever* plugged originally, or just covered with 
tape or whatever.

Also re. my previous post, I'm assuming you can't pull the pan on an Olds 
V-8 as installed in an A-body without lifting the engine, thereby 
fluffing up the labor costs by a considerable margin. Has anyone found a 
way to do this with the engine still installed?

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 19:43:40 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: 7 bladed fan 

Hey Chris, have you ever looked really close at one of those 7 bladed fans? 
After scouring all of the grime and paint off the one which came on the 
Apprehender I was surprised to find a little oval :(  ford :( logo about 
1/4 inch in diameter. Hmmm, could ford have made fans which were purchased 
by GM and used on Oldses as factory equipment? Anyone Else?
          
          Well, the 69 H/O air cleaner top used the top pan, flapper 
          door, and actuator from a Ford Cobra Jet.  And just to show 
          that turnabout is fair play, the 1969 (I think) Super Cobra 
          Jet 429 used a Q-Jet carb!
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: John D Bartusek <bart@cmf.nrl.navy.mil> 
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 19:04:36 -0300
Subject: Re: misc stuff 

Chris, 

Thanks Rocket Scientist 
for the advice on my two Olds ('69 Cutlass S and '71 C/S Convt).
I think I will indeed exchange engines in these two cars and refresh/rebuild
them while they are out of the car.  This will give me a reliable
"beater" for winter use and a garaged convertible for the summer.

The reason for exchanging engines over just the pistons is that I
think I can minimize the time when both cars are out of service for
rebuilding by working on one at a time. I need one of them to go to
work always. 

(More questions below)

>Well... Yes, both timing sets are very old and deserve to be
>replaced. Your main problem here, though, is that your best engine is
>in the lamest car...   I recommend you 

>1- refresh both engines, or at least timing chains on both and valve
job on the '71 motor... by 'refresh' I mean tear down, wash, 
>treat to new bearings, rings, ridge ream, new oil pump maybe, valve job,
>spicier cam,new lifters, etc.
 > 2- The pistons in the '69 motor offer better compression. Use them,
>or the whole '69 motor, in the '71 car... most fun engine in most fun car. At
>  3- Use the low-compression pistons/ motor in the 69, which you don't
>care to 'restore' at this time... can skimp by using old cam even if
>necessary...

> Approx. Costs per engine:
> $60   gasket set
> $50   rings
> $30   timing set
> $85   all bearings
> $100  valve job
> $30   oil pump
> $35   lifters
> $100  cam

Seems reasonable:

Roughly $400 for the '71 350 engine going into the '69 beater Cutlass,
since I'll probably reuse the cams from the '71 engine to save some $.
This is ok, but I really don't want to spend any more than necesary for
this engine refreshment. Am I making a mistake by reusing the cam?

Roughly $500 for all rebuild items for '69 350 engine going into the '71
Convertible. 
I'm willing to spend what it takes on this one but still want to keep the
cost under control as much as possible.  

I could just do the timing chain and clean out the oil pan 
but it seems like a golden opportunity with the engine out of the car
to just go ahead with the rebuild. This engine has 120K miles now.
What do you think about holding off on the valve job or any of the other items
on this one to a later date?  This '69 350 runs quite well now.
 
I'm wondering if you might recommend sources for the parts because
your estimates seem lower than what i've seen in the mail order
catalogs I have.  (I have Supercars Unlimited and Year One catalogs.) 
Year One doesn't even have most of the engine parts either.

Also, I have most of the the basic mechanics tools but lack anything
specific for engine rebuilds.  What tools are essential and what might
be nice to have?  I need to budget for this too.

Much Thanks Rocket Scientist,
      -John Bartusek
        '69 Cutlass S 350 2V (120K miles)
        '71 Cutlass Supreme Convt 350 2V (250K miles)

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 17:58:58 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: The heat is on 

>        My turn.  Keep in mind that there are a lot of variables in 
>        this heat transfer equation.  Heat transfer rate from the 
>        block to the coolant depends on the difference in temperature 
>        between the two, among other things.

Yes...

>  The greater the delta T, 
>        the higher the heat transfer rate.  All else being equal 
>        (which it obviously isn't), the delta T between the block and 
>        the coolant will be greater than the delta T between the 
>        radiator (which runs at about the same temperature as the 
>        coolant) and the air.

Okay...

>  The result is that the coolant would 
>        absorb more heat from the block than it would reject in the 
>        radiator.

Sorry, I think you're leaving out a couple of things here, if for no
other reason than that if the above was true, engines would always
overheat. What I'm saying is that IMHO the radiator dissipates heat
a lot more efficiently _from_ the coolant than the engine can do putting
heat _into_ the coolant. Thus the radiator can stay ahead of the engine
in heat terms, and the thermostat in the circuit serves to slow the flow
through the block to ensure that the coolant is hot leaving the block.

Let's look at this another way: you could also install a thermostat at 
the bottom of the radiator to ensure that the coolant is sufficiently 
_cold_ leaving the radiator, but no one does that. Why? I assume it's 
because the coolant is always sufficiently cold when it comes out, so 
there's no need to keep it in the radiator any longer than usual.

>        Also, since the therostat is the "exit" from the block for the 
>        coolant, the restrictor does, in fact, control the flow rate 
>        through the radiator, not the engine. 

It does indeed, but what it is measuring is engine temperature, trying
to restrict the flow of coolant that's too cold and allow the flow of
coolant that's hot. When it blocks the coolant, that simply causes 
recirculation until the coolant is hot enough to be let out.

>        I apologize for this disjointed response.  I've been trying to 
>        follow this thread, and a number of thoughts have come to mind 
>        (not to mention having to deal with annoyances such as having 
>        to do _work_ in the meantime!)

Me too. Those pesky customers keep calling!  :-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: idaholc@primenet.com (Bill Goodnight)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 20:35:43 -0300
Subject: 1975 Olds 98 455 Advice 

I have been looking for a donor car for 455 for '49 Coupe I am street
rodding.  I am not looking for a super hot engine just a hefty runner.  How
would a 455 from a 1975 98 do?

I would appreciate a fast get back since I am going to look at it tonight.

------------------------------

From: "C. K. Yee" <yu135008@yorku.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 20:58:04 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: The heat is on

> Let's look at this another way: you could also install a thermostat at 
> the bottom of the radiator to ensure that the coolant is sufficiently 
> _cold_ leaving the radiator, but no one does that. Why? I assume it's 
> because the coolant is always sufficiently cold when it comes out, so 
> there's no need to keep it in the radiator any longer than usual.

When Andrew mentioned a thermostat at the bottom (outlet) of the
radiator, it reminded me of an article on the coolant flow
within an LT1, written by Impala SS guru, Scott Mueller:
 
"...Besides promoting detonation, causing gasket failures, forcing reduced
compression, spark advance, and significantly reduced power output, a
conventional cooling system causes several other problems. Since the
thermostat is on the exit side of the system, it does not have direct
control over the cold coolant entering from the radiator. This is
especially true when the thermostat first opens after reaching operating
temperature. As the thermostat first opens allowing hot coolant to exit
the engine, a rush of very cold coolant enters the block all at once,
shocking the engine and causing sudden dimensional changes in the metal
components. The extreme thermal shock experienced by the engine causes
head gaskets and other soft parts to fail much more quickly...

The LT1 is completely different since it uses reverse flow cooling. The
incoming coolant first encounters the thermostat, which now acts both on
the inlet and outlet sides of the system. Depending on the engine coolant
temperature, cold coolant from the radiator is carefully metered into the
engine. This allows a more controlled amount of cold coolant to enter,
which immediately mixes with the bypass coolant already flowing. This
virtually eliminates the thermal shock present in the old system.

After entering through one side of the 2-way thermostat (at the
appropriate temperature), the cold coolant is routed directly to the
cylinder heads first, where the combustion chambers, spark plugs and
exhaust ports are cooled. Then the heated coolant returns to the engine
block and circulates around the cylinder barrels. The hot coolant from 
the block re-enters the water pump, and hits the other side of the 2-way
thermostat, where it is either re-circulated back through the engine or
directed to the radiator, depending on temperature..."
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry about the Ch*vy content of these excerpts, but I thought
the concept of the 2-way thermostat would enrichen the 
cooling system discussion.
 
Kevin Wong
 

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 00:31:08 -0300
Subject: Re: Metallic Brake Pads

Forwarded from Michael Herrmann of the Fordnatics:
> 
> Mike:
> 
> So, Cutlass driver's are curious about brake pads?  :-)  Kinda funny! 
(I didn't get that - MRF)

> Anyway, I run the Performance Friction pads on my mustang with no 
> problems of warpage and the thing stops a hundred times better than 
> before with the stock pads.  These are carbon-metalic pads.
> 
> Warping rotors usually happens when you cram on the brakes hard with
> a cold rotor, and that can happen with any type of pad.  I have had
> zero warpage problems, and several friends even run CM80 and CM90 
> compound pads (full out race) on the track with stock rotors and don't 
> have warpage problems.  Of course, these pads have a higher Cf than the
> rotors themselves after a point, so if you get the rotors really, 
> really hot, sparks go flying and the pads eat the rotors!!!  But that 
> could never happen on the street...
>
> Mike


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Hall <mikehal1@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 23:26:56 -0300
Subject: Re: 1970 Olds 442

>What is a His/Her Shifter?  Anybody?

This is a Dual Gate Automatic shifter made by Hurst. His/Her was 
typically associated with the Dual Gate's in the Pontiac's (GTO's, 
LeMans, etc.) 

>i believe the his hers shifter is the lightning rods

Ummmm, no, please see above....

>I always thought that his/her shifter was a fancy name for the Dual Gate?

Bingo! You are the winner!

>If I remember correctly it was a hurst dual gate with a key lock to lock out 
the
>gated side of the shifter. sorry not politicaly correct but it was advertised 
to
>lock her out of the gated side.

Sorry, no "key lock", just a dust plate to keep junk out of the assembly 
when not using the gated side. Since the Dual Gate has two parallel 
"Gates", it was associated with a "His/Her" since the assembly shared the 
same centerline of the car.


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Michael R. Hall                            Ortonville, Michigan
E-Mail: mikehal1@ix.netcom.com
Owner: 1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass S, 380 horses of pure Mondello fun...
Owner: 1991 Oldsmobile Eighty-Eight Royale Broughm, the classy one...
Owner: 1994 GMC Sonoma Club Coupe SLS Pickup.
         Brought to you by a Apple Power Macintosh 7100/80
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

------------------------------

From: Mike Hall <mikehal1@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 23:26:58 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Olds Engine Article...

>     Any chance of you posting the ISBN number for that book?  Or Author or 
>     Publisher?  I'd love to see if the bookstore can order me a copy, or 
>     heck, maybe even find it in the library!


Tom,

Sorry, no ISBN number on this.

Book Name: Oldsmobile Performance

Authors: Bob Gerometta, Bill Rosenblum, Don Torkik

Company: Prescription Performance, I have an address and phone but they 
have long since moved from that location.

Anyone else have this book out there besides me?

FYI, I have used this book as my engine building guide for years... many 
of the part numbers are dated as I got this book around 1979.


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Michael R. Hall                            Ortonville, Michigan
E-Mail: mikehal1@ix.netcom.com
Owner: 1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass S, 380 horses of pure Mondello fun...
Owner: 1991 Oldsmobile Eighty-Eight Royale Broughm, the classy one...
Owner: 1994 GMC Sonoma Club Coupe SLS Pickup.
         Brought to you by a Apple Power Macintosh 7100/80
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 22:50:57 -0300
Subject: Re: 7 bladed fan 

In a message dated 96-05-23 13:38:01 EDT, you write:

>What year Toros had this 7 bladed fan? Will it improve the cooling on my 69
>442?
>
>

7 bladed props with the silicone clutch came in all 66-67 Toros with A/C as
standard. Whether I have air or not, I put one in right away whenever I get
another Toro. They might have come in later years, but I'm not sure.

If you replace a standard blade with a 7 blade, be sure to get the spacer
with it. The spacer is shorter with 7 blades as are the bolts. The 7 bladed
prop will not fit with a standard spacer and bolts. It will hit the radiator!

Greg K. 

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 18:12:57 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: The heat is on

Andrew C. Green wrote:
> 
> >        
> 
> Let's look at this another way: you could also install a thermostat at
> the bottom of the radiator to ensure that the coolant is sufficiently
> _cold_ leaving the radiator, but no one does that. Why? I assume it's
> because the coolant is always sufficiently cold when it comes out, so
> there's no need to keep it in the radiator any longer than usual.
> 
> >        Also, since the therostat is the "exit" from the block for the
> >        coolant, the restrictor does, in fact, control the flow rate
> >        through the radiator, not the engine.
> 
> It does indeed, but what it is measuring is engine temperature, trying
> to restrict the flow of coolant that's too cold and allow the flow of
> coolant that's hot. When it blocks the coolant, that simply causes
> recirculation until the coolant is hot enough to be let out.
> 
> >       Is that why the thermostats are loaded with the bimetallic part "in the engine" instead of "in the radiator"?  You can't get the 
thermostat to open very well when it is operating from the cool side of 
the system.

Bill Culp

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 00:14:11 -0300
Subject: Automotive crossbreeding 

          The questions about automakers using other manufacturers' 
          parts reminds me of several other instances.  I think this 
          is much more prevalent that one would think.  For example, 
          Delco, Rochester, and Saginaw parts have been used on 
          virtually every make of US automobile at one time or 
          another.  The TH400 trans has been used by both Rolls Royce 
          and Jaguar (must simplify those Chevy swaps).  The classic 
          was AMC.  Now, obviously little AMC was forced to 
          "outsource" most of its components, but I'll never forget 
          lifting the hood of an AMC and seeing a Ford Autolite 4bbl, 
          a Delco distributor, and a Chrysler automatic transmission!
          
          (The following is not exactly Olds-related, but stay with me 
          on this one...)
          
          Of course, AMC's sweeping of other manufacturers' parts bins 
          often had humorous results.  A friend of mine had a 1970 AMX 
          (390 powered) with a Dana rear end.  Now this is not exactly 
          undesireable in a musclecar, however in what must have been 
          an attempt to save $$, AMC used the exact same rear end 
          configuration as Chrysler.  Now this would appear to make 
          sense (no development costs, takes advantage of high 
          production rates, etc), however trivia buffs will recall 
          that Chrysler used (still uses?) right-hand thread lugs on 
          one side of the car and left-hand on the other, in an 
          attempt to preclude the lug nuts loosening while driving.
          
          ...You can see this one coming...
          
          Naturally, the front hubs (obviously from an non-Chrysler 
          source) were RIGHT-HAND thread on BOTH sides...which forced 
          him to buy two sets of wheel locks (one Chrysler, one Ford) 
          in order to get three RH and one LH for the AMX.  The good 
          news, of course, is that he got a second set of 3 and 1 for 
          "free"!
          
          In another ironic crossbeeding twist, Rootes Group, maker of 
          the Sunbeam Tiger (a Sunbeam Alpine into which Carol Shelby 
          stuffed a small block Ford) was acquired by Chrysler in the 
          mid 60s (1966?).  Thus Chrysler found itself in the 
          difficult position of having to market a car with a Ford 
          engine!  Immediately, any reference to the Ford engine was 
          removed from all advertising for the car.  Significant work 
          was performed attempting to shoehorn the 318 into the Tiger. 
          Unfortunately, the significantly more voluminous 318 could 
          not be adapted, with the car suffering an untimely death 
          shortly after.
          
          Chrysler almost found itself in the same position in the 
          1980s when it acquired Jeep.  The Jeep Cherokee was 
          originally offered with the Chevy 2.8 liter V6, which was 
          supplanted by Jeep's own 4.0 liter I6 only shortly before 
          the Chrysler deal...
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30
          Lots of useless trivia...

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 23:16:19 -0300
Subject: Holey Firewall, Batman! 

Well, this "hole in the (fire)wall" thing got the best of me.  Had to go out
last night with a flashlight and look under the hood of the '72.  The wiper
motor itself is located in a rather large depression in the firewall.
 Directly to the left of the leftmost attaching bolt are two holes in the
firewall.  Mine are not directly above one another, but are on about a 45
degree angle.  Came back inside and looked at the '72 assembly manual.
 Diagrams of the firewall actually show these holes and tell the assembler to
fill them with sealer and cover them with tape (part #9985159).

Now, here's the theory as to why the holes are there to begin with.  Starting
in '68, GM's A body cars adopted the "hideaway" aka recessed park wipers.
 But they were not always standard.  Hideaway wipers were standard on the
higher level A bodies, while the "budget priced" cars, including the F-85,
either offered them as an extra cost option or not at all.  Oldsmobile
offered option C24, recessed-park windshield wipers for $18.96 on F-85 models
(they were standard on Cutlass, Supreme, 442 & Vista Cruiser models), Pontiac
offered them on the Tempest Custom, and probably Chevy and Buick did the
same.  These wipers were still an option on the '72s.

Anyway, if you've got the "hideaways", the washer nozzles are probably
mounted to the underside of the hood.  I think that the budget models with
the standard wipers probably had some sort of design problem with the
underhood nozzle, so the nozzles were located in the cowl, under the wire
screen, and these holes are where the washer hoses would pass through the
firewall to get to the nozzles.  On my '72 these holes are located almost
directly under where the washer pump lines go in/out.  Since nobody knew
which sheetmetal panels would be going to a "fancier" model ) or one with the
hideaway option), all firewall panels came with holes for the standard washer
hoses.  It would have been up to the assembly line worker to cover these
holes as the came through.  I can imagine that, car after car, year after
year, putting a piece of tape over those little holes got king of boring, and
that's probably why nobody bothered to cover the ones up on my '72.  I don't
know what the reason was for having two different wiper systems, and I don't
know how many people would have bothered to pay the extra money to "hide" the
wipers on an F-85, but I doubt there were many who did.

So how's that for an explanation?

Paul

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 18:27:53 -0300
Subject: Re: misc stuff 

John D Bartusek wrote:
> 
> Chris,
> 
> Thanks Rocket Scientist
> 

If the '69 works so well, why not swap it into the convertible as is for 
now & put your time into the '71.  When it is complete check on the 
budget and do what you want with the '69 engine.

You should totally look at each engine as it is taken apart.  Every part 
has worn at least some.  Evaluate each closely before deciding to keep 
everything.  You might get lucky on one cam and use it in your cheap 
rebuild.  The heads are very iffy.  They usually wear as much as the 
bearings & rings.  With poor valve sealing you get low compression, poor 
valve guides will suck oil when you get good strong intake from new 
rings.  This would need to be done with a very critical eye and the help 
of an experienced person at the machine shop.

Both Supercars Unlimnited & Year One are expensive.  Go to a NAPA or 
other local store for brand name parts that you trust.  The prices that 
you have heard will match up then. 
  
Bill Culp

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 00:07:50 -0300
Subject: Re: V8 

At 16.12 05,20,96 -0300, you wrote:
>At 12:34 AM 5/23/96 -0300, you wrote:
>
>>PS...i do have a confirmation of solid webs on certain 77 403s...more later
>>                    
>>
>Well, let's hear it!  Some pictures would be nice, too!
>

i am going to be seeing one within the next week...he says he has one IN SHOP!!!
                         zack

>--
>Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
>dpauliso@metrolink.net
>
> "I was put on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things;
>    right now I'm so far behind, I'll never die"  --Calvin
>
>
>
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\         "I only kill to know i'm alive"
 *************

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 01:10:23 -0300
Subject: Re[4]: The heat is on 

     Is that why the thermostats are loaded with the bimetallic part "in the 
engine" instead of "in the radiator"?  You can't get the 
thermostat to open very well when it is operating from the cool side of 
the system.
          
          I've never thought about it, but you're probably right.  
          Also, I didn't mean to imply that the delta T was by any 
          means the only effect on heat transfer.  Certainly the 
          radiator, with it's significantly greater surface area, will 
          reject more heat more quickly that the block can input into 
          the coolant (hopefully).  I must say, however, that I've 
          certainly learned a lot from this discussion.  The recap of 
          the LT1 reverse cooling scheme is also interesting.  I 
          wonder if its possible to adapt such a scheme to a 
          traditionally-designed engine's cooling system?
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30
          Lots of BTUs

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 01:16:54 -0300
Subject: Engine Parts Source (was: misc stuff) 

          
Both Supercars Unlimnited & Year One are expensive.  Go to a NAPA or 
other local store for brand name parts that you trust.  The prices that 
you have heard will match up then. 
          
          I've had good results with Performance Automotive Wholesale 
          (PAW).  If you din't mind mail ordering your parts, their 
          prices are very reasonable.  I also find the complete kit 
          approach attractive when I don't have the time to chase a 
          multitude of parts.  I should note, however, that I used 
          them when I lived in the LA area and was able to drive to 
          their shop to pick up the parts.  I really haven't mail 
          ordered from them, which adds the time lag factor, 
          especially if you have a problem with a component.  I've 
          built a 455 Olds and a 302 Ford using their complete engine 
          kits and had excellent results with both.
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: isagil <isagil@CAM.ORG>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 03:57:15 -0300
Subject: Re: The heat is on

BobH592058@aol.com wrote:

> If you are going to entirely remove the thermostat, use something to slow
> down the flow.  Commonly I have heard of and seen plates with about a 3/4
> inch hole.  This approximates the open thermostat.
> 
> Bob Handren

I used the modified thermostat as a restrictor: I simply cut the bronze part 
and the spring, so now there is more flow, but it is somehow restricted. I 
drove the car just a few miles today, and after a while, it ran a continuous 
80 celcius. Good enough for me, since this car won't be driven this winter.

Gilles <isagil@cam.org>

------------------------------

From: Bob Valentine <ravalent@liii.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 00:56:54 -0300
Subject: Re: Internal regulator conversion

On Mon, 20 May 1996, David Paulison wrote:

> One question:  will the steel fan from the 10SI fit on the 12SI (to replace
> the plastic one)?

     Yes, but you will need to modify the spacer that fits between the 
fan and the body.    I am *NOT* sure what effect using the older fan on 
the newer alternator will have; the plastic one might move more air.

                     -->   Bob Valentine  <--  
                    --> ravalent@liii.com  <--
        "Experience varies directly with equipment ruined"

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 01:18:15 -0300
Subject: Cam number

Anyone know the specs of cam #401348?  From a 70 Cutlass SX.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
 revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
 information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
 Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
 been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

From: "C. K. Yee" <yu135008@yorku.ca>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 02:16:46 -0300
Subject: Re[5]: The heat is on

>           the LT1 reverse cooling scheme is also interesting.  I 
>           wonder if its possible to adapt such a scheme to a 
>           traditionally-designed engine's cooling system?

Not too much was changed on the Ch*v small block when reverse
flow cooling was adopted.  The coolant crossover passages in 
the intake manifold were eliminated.  The new cast aluminum
water pump, which also serves as a coolant crossover, has an integral 
thermostatic housing.  I suppose if someone made a water pump similar to 
this for the Olds engine.....  who knows?  A redesigned 'dry' intake 
manifold probably wouldn't be necessary, but with the potential for
leaks with aluminum ones, it wouldn't be a bad idea.  BTW, the coolant
flow for the radiator is also in reverse (bottom to top).  I don't
think so, but would this change the design of the radiator? 
 
Kevin Wong

------------------------------

From: John D Bartusek <bart@cmf.nrl.navy.mil> 
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 02:21:12 -0300
Subject: Heater Noise 

Can anyone explain why I hear a strange noise from my '69 Cutlass 350
which always occurs when:

1) Heater is on while temperature control is anywhere BUT the leftmost
cold/off position
2) and while Driving at any speed over about 65 mph

The Noise is a fairly loud steady mellow tone which can easily be
heard above the radio at moderate volumes.  

It's definately not related to the heater fan and sounds like it might
be caused by water rushing through the heater system. Or is the noise
caused by the vacuum lines and vacuum diaghram motors under the dash.

The tone will imediately stop if I switch off the heat or move the
temp control to the coldest position or slow down.

Also, the Heater puts out very good heat like its supposed and even comes
out of the proper place under the dash.  All other Vent functions,
like AC,defrost,vent work well too.

I've been tolerating this noise for 2 years now and had long ago given
up on finding its cause! any ideas?

- -John Bartusek

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 03:07:45 -0300
Subject: The heat/flame is on 

>...Sooo, not being cooled as much >in the radiator would be OK cause it's 
>not getting as hot before it >enters it....<snip>...
>          
>...The reason I suggested a while back that the restrictor plate 
>replacement for the thermostat was more likely for the engine's 
>benefit instead of the radiator's was because I could see how 
>increased coolant flow through the engine might not carry off heat 
>properly...
>
>        My turn.  Keep in mind that there are a lot of variables in 
>        this heat transfer equation.  Heat transfer rate from the 
>        block to the coolant depends on the difference in temperature 
>        between the two, among other things.  The greater the delta T, 
>        the higher the heat transfer rate.  All else being equal 
>        (which it obviously isn't), the delta T between the block and 
>        the coolant will be greater than the delta T between the 
>        radiator (which runs at about the same temperature as the 
>        coolant) and the air.  The result is that the coolant would 
>        absorb more heat from the block than it would reject in the 
>        radiator.
>        
>        Now obviously there is a difference in surface area, 
>        conductivity of the metals, fins on the radiator, etc., but 
>        the more time a unit volume of coolant spends in the radiator, 
>        the more heat it rejects.  Also, the temperature of the 
>        coolant is not constant, but varies considerably with its 
>        location in the system.  Neither is the flow rate constant in 
>        all parts of the system, as coolant is constantly circulating 
>        in the block and heads (via the water pump), but not 
>        necessarily flowing at the same rate through the radiator.  
>        Also, since the therostat is the "exit" from the block for the 
>        coolant, the restrictor does, in fact, control the flow rate 
>        through the radiator, not the engine. 
>        
>        I apologize for this disjointed response.  I've been trying to 
>        follow this thread, and a number of thoughts have come to mind 
>        (not to mention having to deal with annoyances such as having 
>        to do _work_ in the meantime!)

     Here again, I agree.  Bravo, etc.  Never imagined such strong
viewpoints over such a ~hot~ topic!!!
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 455
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 03:30:29 -0300
Subject: The heat/flame is on 

>Sorry, I think you're leaving out a couple of things here, if for no
>other reason than that if the above was true, engines would always
>overheat. What I'm saying is that IMHO the radiator dissipates heat
>a lot more efficiently _from_ the coolant than the engine can do putting
>heat _into_ the coolant. Thus the radiator can stay ahead of the engine
>in heat terms, and the thermostat in the circuit serves to slow the flow
>through the block to ensure that the coolant is hot leaving the block.
>
>Let's look at this another way: you could also install a thermostat at 
>the bottom of the radiator to ensure that the coolant is sufficiently 
>_cold_ leaving the radiator, but no one does that. Why? I assume it's 
>because the coolant is always sufficiently cold when it comes out, so 
>there's no need to keep it in the radiator any longer than usual.
>
>>        Also, since the therostat is the "exit" from the block for the 
>>        coolant, the restrictor does, in fact, control the flow rate 
>>        through the radiator, not the engine. 
>
>It does indeed, but what it is measuring is engine temperature, trying
>to restrict the flow of coolant that's too cold and allow the flow of
>coolant that's hot. When it blocks the coolant, that simply causes 
>recirculation until the coolant is hot enough to be let out.

OKAY, the biggest function of the thermostat is to simply regulate engine
temperature, that's it.  The engine has to stay at a certain temperature
(which some Einstien determined to be around 200 degrees) to maintain
minimum emissions.  The heating system comes into play there, too.  The
thermostat keeps the engine coolant from the radiator until it gets hot
enough to change things.  Then it lets some hot water out/warm water in to
cool things off a bit.  It really doesn't care or matter ~how~
cold/cool/warm, etc. coolant coming in is.  As soon as it cools off enough,
it closes again.  Many of these arguements have been assuming a digital flow
pattern from the T-stat (on or off only) but it operates as an analog
control.  If it's barely too hot, it opens a bit.  If it's ~really~ hot, it
opens wider. This makes for a constantly changing flow rate, and (when all
is proper) is quite efficient.  The coolant in the radiator is constantly
circulating with airflow over multiplexed fins for maximum heat transfer.  I
don't know if that's really any different than what's been argued already,
but for what its worth, there's some more of it..  :)
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 455
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 06:26:25 -0300
Subject: Re: Holey Firewall, Batman!

On Thu, 23 May 1996 PHartlieb@aol.com wrote:
>  Diagrams of the firewall actually show these holes and tell the assembler to
> fill them with sealer and cover them with tape (part #9985159).

<Hideaway wiper description deleted>

> So how's that for an explanation?

Outstanding! Thanks Paul... makes sense too. Now if I could only find 
some NOS tape.

;-)

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 06:39:14 -0300
Subject: Re: Automotive crossbreeding

On Fri, 24 May 1996 JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com wrote:
>           Chrysler almost found itself in the same position in the 
>           1980s when it acquired Jeep.  The Jeep Cherokee was 
>           originally offered with the Chevy 2.8 liter V6, which was 
>           supplanted by Jeep's own 4.0 liter I6 only shortly before 
>           the Chrysler deal...

Of course Olds did much the same thing within GM. They used the Buick 
aluminum V-8 in the early F-85s, the Buick V-6 also, and then the Ch**y 
inline 6. The Rocket V-8 was also sold to Cadillac and used in the 
Seville. I'm not sure but I remember reading that Olds also sold some 
4-bbl Rockets to Buick in the mid-70s, and of course there were the 
infamous "Chevymobiles" of that same vintage before GM decided to offer a 
corporate engine line, not brand-specific.

I could never understand some of these moves. Why Chrysler would 
discontinue their bulletproof and relatively powerful slant-six in favor 
of AMCs boat anchor 258 is a mystery, one almost as big as how they've 
managed to sell so many of them recently...

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 09:15:05 -0300
Subject: Re: Automotive crossbreeding

> From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca>

> Of course Olds did much the same thing within GM. They used the Buick 
> aluminum V-8 in the early F-85s, the Buick V-6 also, and then the Ch**y 
> inline 6. The Rocket V-8 was also sold to Cadillac and used in the 
> Seville.

Wasn't just the Seville, either, Greg, see tag line below...


Tim Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'88 Cadillac Brougham, a.k.a. 'Big Blue' -- Olds 307 Powered!!
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'


P.S.  Since I pulled Big Red out of storage in late April, I've put precisely
10 miles on her -- 5 to the tranny shop to fix a leak, and 5 back home.
I have yet to find a window of time to put the new interior door & rear panels
in (and the old ones are out); and besides, I tremble at the thought of driving
the car into Boston every day -- remember the thread I had inadvertantly started
last week on Mass drivers.  Plus, I pick up the kids from daycare, and they're
still too young for a trip in the convertible.

After sitting a month, it turns out the d*mn tranny is still leakin, to boot :P

P.P.S.  It looks like I'll be replacing Big Blue before the dang Mazda.  I'll
be getting my Grandfather's '89 or '90 (I fergit the year) Fleetwood w/ 45K
on the clock in the next coupla months -- He feels he only needs 1 Caddy these
days :)  My bro-in-law, the Master GoodWrench at a local Olds dealership, will
be taking ownership of Big Blue, so it'll stay in the family & go to a very
good home... in exchange, he'll give his Ch*vy C*pr*ce Cl*ss*c to my wife's
aunt, replacing her older & much more beat up Ch*vy C*pr*ce.

P.P.P.S  The aforementioned bro-in-law, with whom I have been friends since
we were kids -- long before he lost his sanity & married my sister :) -- and
a couple other friends from long ago and I went down to Cape Cod last weekend
to do some fishin', drinkin' and gen'l commiserating (i.e., 'Male Bonding')...

One of these friends is in the process of a divorce, and he was recounting
some horror stories of some financial dirty tricks currently being played out
by his soon-to-be-ex spouse.  IN JEST OF COURSE, My bro-in-law suggested that
the 330 block in my garage might be best used as a anchor on a short chain,
with this friend's wife on the other end o' the chain, tossed into Cape Cod Bay.
I told him that, besides having to file an EPA Environmental Impact statement,
it would be a very ignoble end to an Olds engine :)

I'll say it again, in case anyone thinks otherwise -- IN JEST OF COURSE :)

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 09:30:50 -0300
Subject: Re: Automotive crossbreeding

> IN JEST OF COURSE, My bro-in-law suggested that
>the 330 block in my garage might be best used as a anchor on a short chain,
>with this friend's wife on the other end o' the chain, tossed into Cape Cod Bay
>I told him that, besides having to file an EPA Environmental Impact statement,
>it would be a very ignoble end to an Olds engine :)

>I'll say it again, in case anyone thinks otherwise -- IN JEST OF COURSE :)



But what a great use for a Ch*vy SB!



          ___              ___        _________
         /   |            /   |      /         \
        /    |           /    |     |   ___    |
       /     |          /     |     |__|   |   |
      /      |         /      |           /   /   
     /       |        /       |          /   /   
    /   /|   |       /   /|   |         /   /
   /   /_|   |__    /   /_|   |__      /   /
  |             |  |             |    /   /
  |______     __|  |______     __|   /   /_____
         |   |            |   |     |          |      Pat Clark
         |___|            |___|     |__________|       69 442
						      400/400

   "Just your average 300+hp garage hogging, gas sucking, money pit"

------------------------------

From: Roger Heath <RHEATH@worldbank.org>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 10:27:36 -0300
Subject: RE: Cam number

          >Anyone know the specs of cam #401348?  From a 70 Cutlass S=
X.
         =20
          I have the article:Cam-shaft Identification Chart for 307-4=
55 cid=20
          engines 1964 to 77, Journey with Olds, February 1995, by Ka=
rl D.=20
          Sarpolis, Jr. There is no part no. 401348 listed. The part =
no.=20
          for 1970 are:
          393859
          400084
          400117
          400165
          402486
          402569
          406768
          402194
          for respectively:
          350=094 BC ex: TH, OAI, Hi Perf=20
          350=092 BC, 4BC TH
          455=09ex: Toro., Pol.
          =094257, 67(Cutlas Supreme) 4400 TH, Toro., W-34
          455=09Toro. ex W-34
          455=094400 ST OAI (W-30)
          455=094400 ST ex OAI
          350=09OAI (W-31)
          If any of these look likely, I can send you the correspondi=
ng:
          Overlap =B0=09Duration, =B0=09=09Lift, inches=09
            =09=09Inlet=09Exhaust=09=09Inlet=09Exhaust
         =20
          Roger Heath 71 Delta 88 Convertible

------------------------------

From: Fernando Proietto <proietto@dow.on.doe.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 20:22:27 -0300
Subject: Re: Cam number

Hey, 
	Roger I'd like to know the specs on the 350 engines. Especially the OAI, HI PERF or 
the W-31. Want to match it up against Modello's JM16-18 cam. Can you put a table together to 
show us the specs?

Regards
Fernando Proietto

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 14:28:53 -0300
Subject: Graphics

HEY, ALL!

I just bought a Snappy which, if you don't know know, may be the best 
video capture device yet produced.  It will convert video (from a camera 
or tape) into a Bit-Map, GIF, JPEG, TIFF, Targa, etc.  It does an 
absolutely amazing job.  The images don't look like video at all.  Only 
$200, and I highly recommend it.

If you're interested in more info on the Snappy, check out www.play.com, 
the manufacturer's page.  (No, I don't have stock in it.)

The point is, if you want an image for Bryceman or your own page but 
don't have access to a scanner, help is here.  Send me a VHS video tape, 
I will convert it for you, and send the image back by email.  Best 
results will be by using a tripod mounted camera (to avoid the giggles). 
Shoot it for at least a minute (or more), so my video equipment will have 
time to sync and drop the time counter.

The charge for this service is: ZERO, ZIP, ZILCH ... I just get to keep 
the tape.  After all, I'm not going to SPEND money to send it back to 
you.

Send tapes to:    Mike Frederick
                  7502 Armand Circle
                  Tampa, Florida  33634

And try not to get your honeymoon tapes mixed in with it.    ;)

The 66 Toro and Mike

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 10:30:49 -0300
Subject: Re: Automotive crossbreeding 

>          The questions about automakers using other manufacturers' 
>          parts reminds me of several other instances. [...] I'll 
>          never forget 
>          lifting the hood of an AMC and seeing a Ford Autolite 4bbl, 
>          a Delco distributor, and a Chrysler automatic transmission!

Not to mention the GM steering column sticking out of the dash. From what
I remember of a friend's Gremlin or something or like that, it had a '69
Pontiac-style column with the nice clear-plastic, backlit shift quadrant
sticking up out of the top of the column in front of the dash. Probably
AMC liked it because they didn't have to engineer a shift quadrant display
and pointer, etc., for their dashboard.

My uncle in England has some slick cars you've probably never heard of 
called an Alvis. The company was around for decades but went out of business
in 1967 (give or take a year), and he's got the last two built, an automatic
and a manual. They're the same size and trim levels as Jaguar sedans, with
grey leather, sunroof, burl walnut veneer dash, etc. Alvis used GM automatic
transmissions coupled to their own six-cylinder 3.0L in-line engines, with 
an unusual dash-mounted shift selector. The P-R-N-D-L shifter is a slide 
control like an overgrown heater control, and below that is another slide
control that lets you adjust shift points, from real low upshifts for 
economy to real high upshifts for performance. If you want a kickdown at 
highway speed, hey, just slide the lever to the right until it kicks down.
I drove the automatic a lot a few years ago; what a blast.  :-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 10:39:13 -0300
Subject: Re: Heater Noise  

>Can anyone explain why I hear a strange noise from my '69 Cutlass 350
>which always occurs when:
>
>1) Heater is on while temperature control is anywhere BUT the leftmost
>cold/off position
>2) and while Driving at any speed over about 65 mph
[...]                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>The tone will imediately stop if I switch off the heat or move the
>temp control to the coldest position or slow down.
>                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^

I would be real interested to put a vacuum gauge on the vacuum feed to
the system. I'm thinking that possibly at high speeds, you're running
out of manifold vacuum and the big main doors in the center of the
firewall (I forget what they do exactly, but they're visible if you
remove the lower, underdash duct assembly) are closing. You're hearing
a rush of air hitting those (closed? only-partly-open?) doors.

I remember these from our '72 LeMans. When the car was started, you'd
hear a creaking noise a second or so later as initial vacuum opened the
doors and air started coming from the vents. If the car was shut off and
you remained sitting in it, after about three or four minutes, enough
residual vacuum had subsided that the doors started to close again, and
you'd hear this reeeaaaallllyyy sllloooooowww creeeeaaaaakkk as they
closed up.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Bruce D. Brumm" <bdbrumm@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 14:49:06 -0300
Subject: Re: Parts Needed

peter_teubel@mail.hanks.com wrote:
>
>      I'm looking for a few parts for my 1951 Olds 98 4-door Sedan.  If
>      anyone can provide me with any leads, I'd appreciate it.
> 
>      (2) Rear tail light bezels (mine are in multiple pieces)
>      (1) Reverse light lens (clear glass, not plastic)
>      (1) Rear tail light lens (red)
> 
>      Thanks! 
>      Peter G. Teubel
>      peter_teubel@hanks.com
>      '51 98
>While I don't know of a source for the bezels and lenses, try:
  http://www.steelerubber.com/  for the rubber gaskets, etc. to
install and seal them once you obtain them.  I ordered their catalog
and it arrived after about a week. Catalog was FREE.  

Note to all Oldsmophiles:  Catalog covers from ~1934-1977 Olds. from
one degree to another.  Looks like they have motor mounts, pedal covers,
hood pad stops, winshield gaskets, firewall grommets, electrical, 
convertable gaskets, door handle & locks gaskets, etc.  

Neat note:  looks like they re-vulcanize new rubber onto the old metal
           core to restore old or otherwise unavailable (?) motor mounts.

(no, I own no stock... :) )  Just thought that it looked like a great
source for some potentially hard-to-find products.

- -- 

Bruce D. Brumm (bdbrumm@ix.netcom.com)
Network & Systems Administrator
LDM Technologies, Inc.
Troy, MI

'84 Cutlass Supreme 307-Y
'86 Cutlass Salon 307-Y

------------------------------

From: LMEIDT@aol.com
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 12:10:29 -0300
Subject: Re: 1970 Olds 442 

  Sorry for yelling, I'm new to this computer age.  The his/her shifter is a
dual gate.  The her side is like a ordinary floor shifter.  The his side has
steps from 1, 2 , 3 so you don't over shift . Anyone interested in this car
e-mail LMEIDT or call  RICK at 609-854-6060      This car is located in New
Jersey near Philadelphia














































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































                                                                             

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 15:13:02 -0300
Subject: Re: Graphics

Toronado66 asks:

> ...from what you wrote, do you have to have a long duration of a fixed
> image to scan? What about the home video I took with the got the normal
> Cerebral Palsy cameraman (me). Sounds like you can't just freeze frame 
> (oneframe) and copy to hard drive huh?

> How long of a steady image is required for snappy to do its intended 
> work?


Dear Shakey,

The Snappy has several modes of operation: single frame, two frames, four 
frames, and eight frames.  The quality of the image increases as the 
number of frame samples goes up.  The more samples, the better the 
output.  SO ... while a single frame sample works pretty good, if I can 
get more, the quality goes up.


The 66 Toro and Mike

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 07:12:34 -0300
Subject: Re: Parts Needed

Bruce D. Brumm wrote:
> 
> peter_teubel@mail.hanks.com wrote:
> >
> >      I'm looking for a few parts for my 1951 Olds 98 4-door Sedan.  

> >While I don't know of a source for the bezels and lenses, try:
>   http://www.steelerubber.com/  for the rubber gaskets, etc. to
> install and seal them once you obtain them.  I ordered their catalog
> and it arrived after about a week. Catalog was FREE.
> 
> Note to all Oldsmophiles:  Catalog covers from ~1934-1977 Olds. from
> one degree to another.  
> 
> Bruce D. Brumm (bdbrumm@ix.netcom.com)
> Network & Systems Administrator
> LDM Technologies, Inc.
> Troy, MI
> 
> '84 Cutlass Supreme 307-Y
> '86 Cutlass Salon 307-Y

They have a little of everything.  They are the source of most Olds 
rubber products.  Everyone sources through them and the products are 
nice.  You can't lose on just getting a catalog and looking.

Bill Culp

------------------------------

From: LMEIDT@aol.com
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 12:16:25 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds IRC Meeting 

How do I get out of this list .  To much e-mail to handle, Although I like
the information. 

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 15:20:30 -0300
Subject: Re: Automotive crossbreeding

>       The questions about automakers using other manufacturers'
>       parts reminds me of several other instances. [...] I'll
>       never forget
>       lifting the hood of an AMC and seeing a Ford Autolite 4bbl,
>       a Delco distributor, and a Chrysler automatic transmission!

Now you got he thinking about my old International Travelall.  When I had 
to work on it, it was like taking a tour of manufacturers.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #184
********************************

