
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

oldsmobile-digest         Wednesday, 13 March 1996      Volume 01 : Number 117


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Urban <urbanch@magi.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 15:47:29 -0400
Subject: RE: engine choice

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB1024.0F840D00
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



- ----------

I am currently putting a 350 in my '78 Calais; I decided on that instead
of the 350 because I was told that the performance increase wouldn't
actually be that much,
	Who on earth told you that?


as well as the 350 being a bit more versatile.  I
am planning on a daily driver/decent et car, as you are, so your
situation sounds similar to mine.




- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB1024.0F840D00
Content-Type: application/ms-tnef
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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=

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB1024.0F840D00--

------------------------------

From: Chris Urban <urbanch@magi.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 15:52:06 -0400
Subject: RE: engine choice

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB1024.173D9700
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



- ----------
From: 	Alex Holland[SMTP:hollanda@cia.com]
Sent: 	Monday, March 11, 1996 10:41 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Re: engine choice

> Date:          Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:10:16 -0400
> From:          "BARKER A." <ATBARKER@MSMACAB.REMNET.AB.COM>
> Subject:       engine choice
> To:            oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
> Reply-to:      oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca

>=20
>=20
> I have a 81 Cutlass Supreme with a v6 and I want to put another engine =
in it, I
> can get a 455 for $250.  I haven't bought the engine yet and I keep =
getting
> different advice.  If I get a 350 instead, will the weight advantage =
alone make
> the car faster than with the 455.  What would be the better engine to =
use for
> trying to build a fast car?  This will be my daily driver also, will a =
455 give
> me that much worse gas mileage than with a 350 with performace parts?
>=20
> all oppinions are welcome, thank you.
> Tony
>=20
> For what it's worth, I'd go with the 350.  A moderately built 350=20
can go fast asd still get reasonable gas mileage.  A 455 is a great=20
motor, but no matter what you do you will never get gas mileage.  A=20
second factor is weight.  both engines will require changes in your=20
suspension springs, but the 455 needs even stiffer springs.  The 350=20
will outhandle the 455, even if the 455 is faster.  As a note early=20
magazine tests show the stock 455 only 0.8 seconds faster in the 1/4=20
mile over the stock 350.  Is that really worth the diff. in handling=20
and gas mileage. =20


Yes it is. You have to remeber the quarter mile times are not that =
accurate because when racing box stock cars the 455 will have much more =
wheel spin. If you were to race them from say 30 mph  or get the 455 to =
hook up the difference would be much larger. The gas mileage difference =
is definetly true the 455 does use more than the 350, but this is about =
the only clear advantage the small block will hold over the big block.
>=20
>=20
>=20




- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB1024.173D9700
Content-Type: application/ms-tnef
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB1024.173D9700--

------------------------------

From: eda@dl.tc.faa.gov
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:15:24 -0400
Subject: Re: '86 Salon ---> 442 (was Re: Transmission Question)

"Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com> wrote:
> So why don't *we* start a "recipie for power" for the late-model
> 307's?  Or at least a recipie for "more power than stock" since we
...
Sounds cool...

> Anybody know of a source for headers for the 307?  Preferably
> emissions-legal?

Lemme get back to you on that tomorrow, with my JEGS catalog in hand.  I think
it was Heddman or somebody made the headers, but I also saw something
else...I'll post tomorrow.

Ed Atlee			'77 Cutlass Supreme
eda@dl.tc.faa.gov		'84 Hurst/Olds
	R O C K E T	P O W E R E D ! !

------------------------------

From: david.chontofalsky@mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:05:22 -0400
Subject: Re: More 69 H/O Info rare mirrors

      ******For those who want the correct mirrors for the '69 H/O, a guy who
works where I do reproduces these.  HE has a SC/Rambler and is a member of the
AMC Owners assocation.  He put his card on my H/O in the parking garage,
asking me if I knew any '69 H/O owners looking for excellent repro mirrors.
SInce they were so hard to come by he took it upon himself to make quality
reproductions. I personally have not seen the quality of the goods, BUT I
have seen the SC/Rambler and it is exceptionally sharp!   Anyone interested or
needs these Email me and I will give you his name and number for you to
contact him.. David.Chontofalsky@MCMAIL.VANDERBILT.EDU*******

                  The correct teardrop outside mirrors are unique to the 69
          H/O and are very hard to come by (trust me on this one)


          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: "Shawn M. Twomey" <stwom@ctp.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:48:56 -0400
Subject: 442 lookalike

>Also:  I have owned this car for about a month.  It has t-tops, guage
>package, bucket seats, console shifter, etc.  The previous owner had
>apparently started to convert this car to a 442 look-alike.  It is
>black.
>For fun and looks I may finish the job and paint the 442 scheme (on).
>Does anyone know what the correct color schemes are and where I might
>find a vin-9 (442, Calais, H/O) motor to put in the car?
>
>Anyone interested in late-model ('81-'88) H/O's, 442's, etc. please
>drop me a note.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Bruce D. Brumm


Why not make it a H/O lookalike?  IMHO, the rear deck spoiler, front air
dam, and to a lesser extent the non-functional cowl bump on the hood really
"belong" on these Cutlasses.  Lauren Engineering makes a stripe kit for the
H/Os, but I don't know of an aftermarket 442 kit.  If GM still sells them,
you're going to pay major buckage.  Of course, you could have the stripes
painted on, but personally I'm going to shell out for the stickers.

As far as performance, you might want to check out if you haven't already
the G-body article comparing the '85 442, Monte Carlo SS, and Regal GN.  The
first page is at:

www.cps.msu.edu/~twomeysh/images/442a.jpg

the rest of the pages are named "442b.jpg" - "442f.jpg"  (you'll have to
type the URLs in manually).  You'll see that, even with the HO 307, stall
converter, and 3.73 rear end, the car runs 0-60 in 9.1s and 1/4 mile in
16.6s.  Its fun, but needless to say, tends to leave you wanting.  Moral of
the story, if you want performance, find a 350.  Drops right in,
everything'll hook up like stock, and there you go.

__________________________________________________________________________
Shawn M. Twomey     |  "No!  Try NOT!  Do, or do not.  There is no try."
stwom@ctp.com       |  -Yoda
__________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 17:04:04 -0400
Subject: spoiler, misc.

> On Mon, 11 Mar 1996 map@usa.net wrote:
> > I have a '65 Cutlass Convertible that I am restoring.  It has Ralley/Sport
I > > wheels on it now.  I understand that these were used in '66, not '65.
The sa > > literature and catalogs show wire wheel covers and flat wheel
covers as opti > > in '65.  I think there was one other "sport" option, but
cannot find info on > > > > I would like info on the options that year and a
place to find the wire whee > > covers and "sport" options.

> My literature shows there were 5 wheel options in '65, in addition to the
> standard dog-dish hubcap. You're right in believing that the SSI's are a
> later addition in that '66 was the first year they are shown in the
> catalog. For '65 you could choose:
> N95 - simulated wire wheel covers with spinners (nice)
> N93 - custom deluxe wheel covers with spinners (sort of a semi-mag style,
> very nice)
> P02 - deluxe wheel discs (appear to have vents around the outer edge)
> P01 - full wheel discs (the cheapest & plainest)
> N98 - full chrome wheels. These were a surprise to me. They appear to be
> a regular GM steel wheel that has been chromed. Probably sold with the
> plain dog-dishes on them. Never seen these but I think they'd be very
> nice and certainly unique.

Hey, I think I have a set of what's prolly the PO1 or PO2's from a '65 Vista
Wagon- not too bad condition, could use the black paint refreshed.
- --Chris--

> I have a 81 Cutlass Supreme with a v6 and I want to put another engine in
it, > can get a 455 for $250.  I haven't bought the engine yet and I keep
getting > different advice.  If I get a 350 instead, will the weight advantage
alone mak > the car faster than with the 455.  What would be the better engine
to use for > trying to build a fast car?  This will be my daily driver also,
will a 455 giv > me that much worse gas mileage than with a 350 with
performace parts? > all oppinions are welcome, thank you. > Tony

Tony, others have pretty well covered the BB/SB advantages/disadvantages list
already... A lot depends on what rear end ratio you intend to use. If you keep
highway gears, good for speed and mileage, but not tork multiplication, like
3.08 or numerically lower, I feel a BB would give you the best results, as
you'd have more tork to spare.
  On the other hand, if you intend to use 3.73 or numerically higher gears,
then a SB will be more fun for the usual reasons: handling, ease of
installation, etc.
  Either way, you might want to pick up a V8 parts car for the myriad of
stuffs you'll need like motor mounts, radiator, fan, shroud, air cleaner,
brackets, etc. The room factor makes the SB installation a bit easier, but
either CAN be done.  Either way, you'll not be disappointed s'long as you put
a good unit in there- lots of compression, fresh rings & bearings, spicy cam,
etc.
  Remember that power makes heat, and that has to be dumped at the radiator...
don't expect a V6 radiator to cool a 350HP 455!

> Hey Chris did I read correctly. There is a 69 Hurst for sale. I'd be
intereste d if your not.

Well, I do intend to get over & investigate. Thanks to, oh, who was it?, for
the list of stuffs to look for... Might be gone by now... That's CHEAP. Parts
price. I'll post description if/when I get it. Phone # too.

Big-inch "small blocks":
> I was wondering, though if the Chevy trick of cutting down the main journals
> on a 400 crank to drop in a 350 block could be applied to the 425 crank in
> order to fit the small-block Olds' 2.5" journal, and cutting down the rod
> journal from 2.5" to the small block's 2.125" size?
>
> Then you could offset-grind the rod journal on the 425's 3.975" stroke crank
> to anywhere from 3.6" to 4.35". Drop that crank into a 403 block with a
.030" > overbore (to 4.381"), and you can have from 434ci to 525ci. > > Of
course, with the stock rods, you'd be putting the piston about an inch out >
of the bore, so different rod lengths/piston pin locations etc. would be >
necessary to make it work; what's the deck height of the small block and big >
block Olds, respectively? Mondello uses a Buick rod in his 454ci stroker, >
doesn't he?

Deck heights are like 9.6 and 10.6" center of crank to top of block.

> And just think, your 525ci "307" would look completely stock! There's
> something for you later-model H/O and 442 owners to ponder...

That'd seem to be the only reason to try such a thing... The 403 block should
be relatively weak with its open main webs... That's why the Diesel block was
used- that and the fact that the MB'gs need not be cut... Diesel block takes
quite a bore, too. Like was suggested- if CID is what you want, start with a
big engine!
  Tell you what, if you want to finance it, I'll help build it :)
Experimentation gone awry!
  I'm afraid the main problem [other than weak main webs [welding
reinforcements?] and maybe weak, not-very-borable cylinders shorten the rod
enuff to keep the piston near the block at TDC, then it's gonna smack into the
crank at BDC. Need some drawings... Also, with an overly large stroke, the
rods' big ends would hit the oil pan rails?, the cam, etc., not all of which
could be ground for clearance- so the stroke limit would probably arise from
those areas.
- --Chris--

> I am interested in info on where I can get a spoiler (NOS) for a 70 442.
>  Also, how is this put on the car?

Boy, are YOU in luck! This month's JWO has one listed, for a mere $500! I
suggest you get to the phone and call NOW before it gets snapped up. If you
want the good NOS stuff, you gotta pay the big bucks...

> Anybody got an old 3.975" BB crank laying around that they could eyeball to
> see if such a cut is even possible?

Yes; but why would it NOT be possible? I guess the rod bearing oil feed hole
would move over a bit, since it's drilled at an angle... but it's all steel in
there otherwise, so why would it not work?
- --Chris--

> > can get a 455 for $250.  I haven't bought the engine yet and I keep
getting

Does this 455 have F, D, or H heads? ;)

> >And just think, your 525ci "307" would look completely stock! There's
> >something for you later-model H/O and 442 owners to ponder...
>
>      THAT's something I've always though would be just killer cool!  (except
> mine would be the 260.  You'd see the 4 bbl. and tubular exhaust, but hey,
> everyone runs headers, right?  Who'd be able to argue with the shroud
> sticker that says 4.3 V8 on it?  Of course, that sputterring rumble of the
> "potato" cam might give it away, but... :)

What, sleeve the block out to a 4.5" bore? Yeah, fake up some "2A" heads out
of a set of big-valve "4A" heads! "It's just a 260! really!" - --Chris--

> Hey, Joe Padavano, could you check the ID letter on your 69 H/O, let me know
> what it is? Maybe I'd best just go investigate this one for sale here.
>
>           ID letter?  I'm not sure what you mean.  If you're referring
>           to the VIN, keep in mind that Olds changed their VIN format

No, the intake, like the heads, block, etc. has a 6-digit casting number, AND
a casting LETTER [for BB's; # for SB's] ID. That'd be usually down in the
depressed area between the front water crossover passage and the first
air-fuel runner. Sometimes it's up right by the 6-digit casting number on top.
   I will go look at the H/O in the paper..
How about you other guys, with the 70-72 W-cars that I was asking for this
info about?

>           Reminds me of the old story about the guy who came into some
>           money.  He wants to buy a Ferrari, his wife wants to remodel
>           the kitchen.  His justification for buying the car is you
>           can always cook in your Ferrari, but you can't drive your
>           kitchen!
>           Joe Padavano

Good point! I was wondering how you guys feel about the ratio of garage/ barn
space to house size. I am currently operating about 1:1, but I think probably
2:1 or 3:1 is more realistic. In favor of the garage, for the impaired....
- --Chris--

>           I saw an ad for a "69 442" with a "Hurst front end".
- --turns out to be an original W30, nearly complete, bought for less than
the cost of the heads...

That's the kind of story that give us all hope! They are still out there, you
just gotta stumble onto them!

> > Does anyone know what the correct color schemes are and where I might
> > find a vin-9 (442, Calais, H/O) motor to put in the car?
>
> Well, owing to the fact that not a lot of these were produced, and not a lot
o f the cars they came in were produced, you might not have an easy time
finding o ne.  If you do, it'll already be in a 442 or H/O, and if nothing's
wrong with it , why bother with the swap.  Though there are people who have
swapped the 307's out for larger engines, but even some of these people may be
hanging on to the o riginal.

It's my belief that the only difference would be the lifter size: 0.921"
roller lifters on the "better" block and 0.842 flat bottoms on the common
block. Either block can be fitted with roller lifters or not when you rebuild.
  So, get a core engine, build it to suit. A roller cam from Mondello costs
about $300- there may be more economical sources, though... Along with a
high-lift cam, you'll want different springs. But, no reason you can't cheap
out, use the 0.842 lifter block, normal spicy cam, regular HD valve springs,
and have something a lot like the old 320 HP 330 engine... Start with 10:1 or
a little better compression...
  I'd recommend earlier heads, #7 or earlier, with the larger intake ports,
and a manifold to match. But, the penalty for using 307 heads & intake should
not be too great, once you have compression and cam in place. - --Chris--

Also, I finally got a truck! Now I can get those engines at Padnos, and
'liberate' the next L-block to come thru Friedland! It's an '85 Dodge with a
225 slant six. Looked up the specs, that sucker's got a >>4.5"<< stroke! No
wonder it feels so torkey!

Saw a nice-ish 67 Cutlass in town today, dropped a flier on it [a great way to
find parts, contacts, btw!]- Blue, buckets, console, needs bodywork. Ah, yes.
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: JK McCall <jkmccall@QBC.Clic.Net>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 21:44:58 -0400
Subject: Speedo drive gears:

Hello again:

First off I would like to thank the many responses to my cruise control
problem.  I found the problem (I got ripped off) but my last trip to New
Brunswick sorted that one out.  Picked up a cruise unit from a scrap yard
I used to frequent.  Now the car floats on the highway.

OK on to the next little project that I'm still trying to get a handle
on.  I've posted on this subjet before but still haven't figured it out.

What I'm trying to do bring my speedo down (doesn't have to be perfect)
to a normal indication.  Currently it registers 130Km/hr at 100 Km/hr.
So its roughly 30K's over.  Which I could live with except my speedo only
registers 140 and often it remains buried...

Here is my current setup:

Trans:  M31 (info from dealer, I suspect its a TH250 or TH350 from the
pan shape)
Speedo Drive gear:  10 teeth (purple, original)
Speedo Driven gear:  18 teeth (brown, first crack with the dealer)
Rear end:  3.08
Tires: 215R75/15

Now to get everything back to original I would have to purchase the 19
tooth driven gear ($16.89)(natural) and the adapter ($76.12)(which has a
ratio of 0.8241, stamped C)(there are 5 other adapters ranging from 1.300
to 0.7333 ratios).  So I can spend the $100 for the whole setup or just
20 bucks for a different gear.  GM's computer give me 5 gears with teeth
ranging from 18 to 22 teeth.  I'm hoping that one of these will bring my
speedo indication down some.  There are 17 other gears ranging from  27
to 45 teeth but I think they require a different sleeve or sensor as
indicated on the chart I got from GM.

Any help in this matter would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

JK McCall

------------------------------

From: Anectine@aol.com
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 20:47:16 -0400
Subject: Radio question

I have a 69 old Cutlass Supreme with a Am Deluxe radio. I would
like to know if any one can tell me if oldmobile put any other type
of radio in the Supreme style. I believe that Olds had a plain fm
radio along with a AM-FM Stereo version but I do not know if
they put in the Cutlasses. If any one could help me I would appreciate
it                                                          Thanks
                                                                  Chuck
Lobrano

------------------------------

From: gludlam@bcinet.net (Gregg Ludlam)
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 21:00:45 -0400
Subject: Re: I'm Dumb, You're Not!

>>Boy, my suspension question really was STUPID!  I miss understood adjusting
>>the steering wheel overcenter adjustment (ie: the center and play of the
>>steering box) with centering the steering wheel.  DUH!!!
>
>     Nonsense!  There's no such thing as a stupid question (well, except
>Kathy Ireland asking if you'd go out with her for the weekend, or something!
>-- I'd have to contemplate THAT for about half a second, just long enough to
>verify the question was really asked!!!!!)  The only stupid questions are
>the ones that aren't asked.  Granted, you might get stupid answers (like
>this) but that's half the fun!!!

Boy, ain't that the truth!  As for you other posting about how stuff gets
bantered around from '50's technology to 90's technology, I agree that
that's what makes this group awesome.  I have a 3" binder full of E-mail
printouts from all of you on tips, suggestions, your past experiences and
ideas, and most-of-all: ways to keep my goofy Toro running!  Give yourselves
all a great, big pat on the back...

        LOVE YOU, MAN!    (whew, got overwhelmed there for a minute...   :) )


- -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy

------------------------------

From: gludlam@bcinet.net (Gregg Ludlam)
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 21:07:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Washer pump

>
>     Just though I'd add that I took my bottle out last week to see if that
>     was where my fluid was going (I'm not the original poster either btw),
>     it wasn't.  The bottle didn't leak.
>
>     But, while I had it out I decided to clean it up a bit.  I threw it in
>     the dishwasher and now it looks brand spanking new!

Cool, at least it wasn't a leaker like mine.  Eliminating THAT leak and the
PS fluid leak that same weekend knocked me down to 2 major fluid leaks: oil
from around the back of the intake (fixing that one on Saturday) and a
mystery tranny fluid leak that seems to be common to Toros.  Hey Charley,
see that?  I went from washer fluid to tranny fluid in one posting...     :)


- -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy

------------------------------

From: gludlam@bcinet.net (Gregg Ludlam)
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 21:11:34 -0400
Subject: Re: '86 Salon ---> 442 (was Re: Transmission Question)

Along the lines of finding a 442 or H/O (mid 80's) for the 307, I noticed a
national ad for GM-Goodwrench replacement engines.  The ad listed long
blocks for both the 307 and 307-roller motors, and for under $2K as I
recall.  Pricey, yes - but the come with a 5 year/50K mile warranty
according to the ad.  The same ad also listed 403's as well...


- -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy

------------------------------

From: BYLN96A@prodigy.com ( GLENN CONNORS)
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 21:32:38 -0400
Subject: Re: 69 H/O Identification

'69 HO will also have the Hurst Olds insignia on the upper part of
the front seats above the ribbed back section.

Glenn
'69 4-4-2


<< Start of Forwarded message via prodigy (R) mail >>

From:	 JPADA@hqgate.orbit
Subject:	 Re: 69 H/O Identification
Date:	 03/12
Time:	 07:44 AM

Date:     	Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:41:01 -0400
From:     JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com  [JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com]
Sender:   oldsmobile-owner@ccn.cs.dal.ca  [oldsmobile-owner@ccn.cs.
dal.ca]
Reply-To: oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca  [oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca]
Subject:  Re: 69 H/O Identification

Hey, Joe Padavano, could you check the ID letter on your 69 H/O, let
me know
what it is? Maybe I'd best just go investigate this one for sale here.


          ID letter?  I'm not sure what you mean.  If you're
referring
          to the VIN, keep in mind that Olds changed their VIN format

          in 1972; previous years did not have an engine designator
in
          the VIN (other than indicating L6 or V8).  My car's VIN,
          just like those of all other 69 H/Os is that of a 442
          (mine's a Holiday Coupe).  Look for the dash plaque,
          although not all cars had them and others may have been
          removed by the original owner (mine's number 180, original

          owner's name was Jerry Felson).  Also look for "D" heads,
          unique cast iron intake with PCV valve fitting towards the

          front, chrome valve covers, and unique sheet metal Ram Air

          adapter on the air cleaner (trivia note - it's a Ford Cobra

          Jet flapper assembly!).  Wheels are 15x7 SSII with chrome
          rims and argent (gray) or gold centers.  Also look for
Hurst
          tire pressure sticker on driver's side door jamb.

          Good Luck.

          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30


 -------- Original message header follows --------
>From oldsmobile-owner@ccn.cs.dal.ca  Mon Mar 11 07:44:36 1996  [PIM 3.
2-030.47]
Received: from ccn.cs.dal.ca (root@ccn.cs.dal.ca [205.150.72.25]) by
pimaia1y.prodigy.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA47522; Tue, 12
Mar 1996 07:46:03 -0500
Received: by ccn.cs.dal.ca id <11981(3)>; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:42:12 -
0400
Received: from oscva.orbital.com ([199.36.24.99]) by ccn.cs.dal.ca
with SMTP id <12055(3)>; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:42:01 -0400
Received: (from mail@localhost) by oscva.orbital.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id
HAA04001 for <oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca>; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 07:41:56 -
0500
From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Received: from hqgate.orbital.com(199.36.16.104) by oscva.orbital.com
via smap (V1.3)
	id sma003999; Tue Mar 12 07:41:54 1996
Received: from ccMail by hqgate.orbital.com (SMTPLINK V2.10.08)
	id AA826645290; Tue, 12 Mar 96 07:41:01 est
Date: 	Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:41:01 -0400
Message-Id: <9602128266.AA826645290@hqgate.orbital.com>
To: oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: Re: 69 H/O Identification
Sender: oldsmobile-owner@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca

 --------------   End of message   ---------------



<< End of Forwarded message >>

------------------------------

From: idaholc@primenet.com (Bill Goodnight)
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 21:59:28 -0400
Subject: Pnntiac/Olds 455's

Is there any difference between Olds and Pontiac 455 engines?

------------------------------

From: ngomez@iadfw.net (Nick Gomez)
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 21:35:20 -0400
Subject: Control Arm Bushings

I went to get some new tires today at NTW, and I decided they might as well
align my front end. When I came back, they said they didn't do the
alignment because my control arm bushings needed to be replaced.

I wonder if they meant the upper or lower bushings. Anyway, they estimated
it would cost about $200 for parts/labor. I think this is too much, but am
I wrong? I was eventually going to buy a Kanter front end rebuild kit, I
believe those bushings are included.

My question: how hard is it to rebuild one's front end? I know it's a
loaded question, but generally speaking, what's required? The air
conditioning setup is in the way on the left hand side of the car, but the
right side is clear. Also, if it's a little while before I replace them,
there's no chance my wheels would roll if, is there? =)

Any help would be great! Thanks, laterz...
BeaTniK

     ------------------------------------------------------------------
     1965 Oldsmobile 98 Town Sedan   TIP # 1048   I Trade Live Concerts
     Always Buying Nirvana Items   MiSTie # 53344       Keep On Skankin
     ------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: Mark Wolfe <markw@wwa.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 22:59:09 -0400
Subject: Re: 454 Small block

Rod Rickenbach wrote:
>
> > > Why not get a diesel 350, and do it with a 425 crank...   It comes out
> > > to something like 454 cubic inches or something like that.   Modello
> > > does a kit for it, you supply the block.    Thing is bullet proof too.
> > > Mark
> >
> > But, with the block full of Hard-Blok, getting adequate cooling is a tad
> > difficult. the 440, I think, is the largest bore he recommends for
water-cooled > > use. > > I don't get it.  If you're going to be putting a
425 crank in a small > block, then bore it out to 425 CID or larger, why not
just build up a 425? > > -Rod >
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- >     Rod Rickenbach                                       Delaware Tech >
rod@dtcc.edu                                 Computer Services Department >
http://www.dtcc.edu/~rod                            Stanton/Wilmington Campus

Smaller package.  :)    And the thing is bulletproof.    Also, alot has
to do with the rod geometry, and stuff like that.   It's been years
since I've actually looked at this combo.   I personally prefer a 455
with a mild cam.  (226 intake and 230 exhaust at .050, .496/.512 lift)
makes for a solid 13 second car on street tires with 3.5 gears, or high
12's with slicks.   (68 cutlass).   Would probably make more power if I
put headers on it, but hey, that ram rod 350 emblem on the air cleaner
fools them already.     Aint nuthin but a lil ole 350 under the hood.
:)
Cul,
Mark Wolfe

------------------------------

From: Rod Rickenbach <rod@hopi.dtcc.edu>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:30:35 -0400
Subject: Re: 454 Small block

On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, Mark Wolfe wrote:

> Rod Rickenbach wrote:
> > I don't get it.  If you're going to be putting a 425 crank in a small
> > block, then bore it out to 425 CID or larger, why not just build up a 425?
>
> Smaller package.  :)    And the thing is bulletproof.    Also, alot has

Hmmm.  The 425 has a forged crank/rods.  How much more bulletproof can
you get?  4 bolt main caps from Dave Smith?  I saw a 9 second 425 powered
car with a STOCK bottom end - no main cap straps - nothing.  Granted, the
car was light, but a 350 diesel block on the street is more than overkill.
I'm the type of guy who likes overkill - like squasing flys with 10 lb.
sledgehammers, but putting a 425 crank into a 350 DX block, only to get a
425-454 seems like sheer stupidity.  I'd bore the 425 out if you need
more CID.  Also, If I had to build my 455 over, I'd make it square - ie
increase the bore to match the stroke.  All of the "fast" 455's are built
this way.  The Olds 455 in it's stock bore/stroke ratio pretty much sucks
IMHO.

- -Rod
-
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
    Rod Rickenbach                                       Delaware Tech
     rod@dtcc.edu                                 Computer Services Department
http://www.dtcc.edu/~rod                            Stanton/Wilmington Campus

------------------------------

From: Jeff Stanish <stanishj@svpal.org>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:39:12 -0400
Subject: Re: More 69 H/O Info

69 H/O trans should read OH unique to the H/O along with a '69 date code.

If you can get a copy of the AMA(American Manufacturers Association) Spec
sheet on the '69 H/O has a lot of parts no info.


Later Jeff

------------------------------

From: "Alex Holland" <hollanda@cia.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:48:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Pnntiac/Olds 455's

> Date:          Tue, 12 Mar 1996 21:59:28 -0400
> To:            oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca, lawrencr@gdls.com (Robert Lawrence)
> From:          idaholc@primenet.com (Bill Goodnight)
> Subject:       Pnntiac/Olds 455's
> Reply-to:      oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca

> Is there any difference between Olds and Pontiac 455 engines?
> In a word, YES.  The two engines were produced by different
divisions of G.M.  They have no interchangable parts that I know of.
Both engines put out similar horsepower and torque figures but the
Olds engine is probably the more reliable of the two.  72 Olds 455.,

>
>

------------------------------

From: "Alex Holland" <hollanda@cia.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:54:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Control Arm Bushings

Date:          Tue, 12 Mar 1996 21:35:20 -0400
To:            oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
From:          ngomez@iadfw.net (Nick Gomez)
Subject:       Control Arm Bushings
Reply-to:      oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca

I went to get some new tires today at NTW, and I decided they might as well
align my front end. When I came back, they said they didn't do the
alignment because my control arm bushings needed to be replaced.

I wonder if they meant the upper or lower bushings. Anyway, they estimated
it would cost about $200 for parts/labor. I think this is too much, but am
I wrong? I was eventually going to buy a Kanter front end rebuild kit, I
believe those bushings are included.

My question: how hard is it to rebuild one's front end? I know it's a
loaded question, but generally speaking, what's required? The air
conditioning setup is in the way on the left hand side of the car, but the
right side is clear. Also, if it's a little while before I replace them,
there's no chance my wheels would roll if, is there? =)

Any help would be great! Thanks, laterz...
BeaTniK

     ------------------------------------------------------------------
     1965 Oldsmobile 98 Town Sedan   TIP # 1048   I Trade Live Concerts
     Always Buying Nirvana Items   MiSTie # 53344       Keep On Skankin
     ------------------------------------------------------------------

Its pretty hard to say if they are taking you to the cleaners of not.
 It depends on what all needed to be done.  I believe that they would
be replacing the upper control arm bushings and for that, You're
paying too much.  On the other hand, if you are not quite familiar
with working on a car, this type of work can be difficult and even
dangerous.  As a note, many older cars get frame spread,...sort of
like me....anyhow, this requires the use of offset bushings in the
upper control arm.  MOOG makes them and I presume Kanter would also.
You might try to determine this before you arder those parts.  If
your car has frame spread and you use normal bushings, you may not be
able to align your front end properly.

------------------------------

From: jrjet@whidbey.net (Dot & Tim McChesney)
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 00:43:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Control Arm Bushings

>I went to get some new tires today at NTW, and I decided they might as well
>align my front end. When I came back, they said they didn't do the
>alignment because my control arm bushings needed to be replaced.
>
>I wonder if they meant the upper or lower bushings. Anyway, they estimated
>it would cost about $200 for parts/labor. I think this is too much, but am
>I wrong? I was eventually going to buy a Kanter front end rebuild kit, I
>believe those bushings are included.
>
>My question: how hard is it to rebuild one's front end? I know it's a
>loaded question, but generally speaking, what's required? The air
>conditioning setup is in the way on the left hand side of the car, but the
>right side is clear. Also, if it's a little while before I replace them,
>there's no chance my wheels would roll if, is there? =)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Any help would be great! Thanks, laterz...
>BeaTniK
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------
>     1965 Oldsmobile 98 Town Sedan   TIP # 1048   I Trade Live Concerts
>     Always Buying Nirvana Items   MiSTie # 53344       Keep On Skankin
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------
replacement of the front end bushings is not that hard. The job is staight
forward follow the manual. I disassembled my front end just had the shop
install the bushings, then reinstalled the parts on the car. Replace all of
the bushings if you have to take it apart do it all at one time, do the
ball joints to while you are there.  The A/C is not a problem just unbolt
the mounts to the engine but leave the hoses connected.

AS far as falling off well they shouldn't. There is a bolt running through
the bushing. This will however not wear well on the new tires.

Tim 71 convert

------------------------------

From: Scott R Clark <mickeyd@selway.umt.edu>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:12:36 -0400
Subject: More Wiper Fun was...Re: Wiper Motor Adventures

	I dug into the wiper problem again yesterday, and finally got
around to disconnecting the transmission rods.  After I poped them off
the motor I thought "Hmm, lets see if I can get these things to move
manually".  So, I pushed and pulled on them.  Hard.  Then really hard.
Nothing.  Not even a little.  Hmmm, could this be the problem?  So, my
next step was to drop the transmission arms, and the things the wiper
arms themselves attach to, and tried to work with them out of the car. Still
wouldn't budge.  Out came the Liquid Wrench and rubber mallet.  After I
drown the things in LW, and some pounding on the linkage, I FINALLY got
them to budge.  After about 20 minutes of just working them back and
fourth, they finally seemed pretty smooth.  Cool! :)  Problem solved,
right?

	Well, not quite.  I turned the motor on after I got the other
things out of the car, and it sat there spinning happy.  Ok, cool.  A
while later, I went back to try it again, and...nothing.  Not even a
click.  Grrr.  The little washer pump would make noise when I pushed the
switch in, so I don't think the switch is bad (although I'll get in there
with the tester to be sure).  So why would the motor suddenly decide to
give up the ghost when it had zero load on it when it wouldn't burn up
even after fighting the frozen arms for so long?  Arg!
	
	I even went down to the junkyard this afternoon to see if the
motor on that 62 would fit.  It sure looks similar, but the part numbers
are definetly different.  The guy there said it would be $20, and a
prayer that it worked.
	
		Any ideas?
		
			Scott
		1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98

			Score
		Scott:  0
  Electrical Gremlins:  1        ;)


------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:36:46 -0400
Subject: Re: engine choice

In a message dated 96-03-12 03:53:19 EST, you write:

>This will be my daily driver also, will a 455 give
>>me that much worse gas mileage than with a 350 with performace parts?
>
>     Umm, Oh sure, you just HAD to go throw THAT in there!!!!  Actually, if
>tuned properly and politely, you should do fairly well on the highway
>(especially if you keep highway gears in it!)  Maybe around 18 or so.

Well, by comparison, my '70 455 SX, with quadrajet and 2.56 rear gears, got a
solid 13mpg combined city/highway, and would get maybe 15mpg driven
conservatively on the highway (rarely did that). This was gratifying when my
friend in a brand-new (for then) '82 T/A with a measly 305/4spd was getting
14mpg! You may get comparable mileage in a later Cutlass with a 455 sans
emissions equip. A 350 with emissions equip might get the same mpg (13-16
combined), and perhaps from 15-19mpg if you run highway gears and build it
specifically for economy.

Something to consider, though, is your driving style. I find that when I
drive a higher-powered car, I drive more conservatively (just knowing I
*could* pass anything is satisfying enough). On the other hand, if I've got a
4-cyl under the hood, I tend to wing it out to redline in every gear, if only
to keep up with traffic. So I end up getting about 20-22mpg in a car capable
of 30-35mpg.

If you have to rev the 350 out in every gear to have any fun with it, your
mileage will suffer to about what a 455 would get you, driven more
conservatively. You have to make the call on this one. And whether 2-4mpg
difference will be worth it to you.

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:37:47 -0400
Subject: Re: 454 Small block

In a message dated 96-03-12 09:08:24 EST, you write:

>> But, with the block full of Hard-Blok, getting adequate cooling is a tad
>> difficult. the 440, I think, is the largest bore he recommends for
>water-cooled
>> use.
>
>I don't get it.  If you're going to be putting a 425 crank in a small
>block, then bore it out to 425 CID or larger, why not just build up a 425?

Well, it's more difficult to disguise a BB 425 as a 260...

What about it, though, could you put a cut-down 425 crank in a non-diesel
block? That would save some weight.

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 02:28:28 -0400
Subject: [none]

6-03-12 22:38:24 EST, you write:

>sledgehammers, but putting a 425 crank into a 350 DX block, only to get a
>425-454 seems like sheer stupidity.  I'd bore the 425 out if you need
>more CID.  Also, If I had to build my 455 over, I'd make it square - ie
>increase the bore to match the stroke.  All of the "fast" 455's are built
>this way.  The Olds 455 in it's stock bore/stroke ratio pretty much sucks
>IMHO.

If you're putting the mill into an early Olds, then I think you're right, a
big-block Olds would do just as well, if not better, than a bb crank in a
small-block Olds; more ci, less money, less effort.

There are a couple reasons why I'd like to stick with a small-block for my
own buildup-

1) Since it is in a '78, it will probably be subject to some emissions
testing for as long as I live. It is much easier to convince a smog-tester
that your engine is "stock" if it is the same size, externally.

2) Size- The engine bay of a downsized C-body will take a big-block, but
things will be noticeably tighter, especially with A/C and P/S.

3) I've already got one, a 403, which is nearly big-block ci in a small-block
package already.

Since this is just meant for a daily-driver, I'm not going for max hp, but
rather the most hp I can afford. Since I'm going to need crank work, I figure
I may as well weigh the options of cutting down a forged 425 crank for 480ci
or so, or at least offset-grinding a forged 330 crank that will bring me
within 15ci of a big-block's 425ci.

So, how about it; any opinions on cutting down a 425's crank to 2.5" main
journals? How much meat on one of those?

Of course, if the mains on all 403's are windowed, the killer crank and
custom pistons this application would require might just "open" those windows
a bit more...

I can just imagine opening the hood after the *bang*, to see only a crank in
the engine compartment with 8 rods and pistons dangling from it, and nothing
else.

------------------------------

From: JK McCall <jkmccall@QBC.Clic.Net>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:19:24 -0400
Subject: Speedo drive gears:

Hello again:

 First off I would like to thank the many responses to my cruise control
 problem.  I found the problem (I got ripped off) but my last trip to New
 Brunswick sorted that one out.  Picked up a cruise unit from a scrap
yard
 I used to frequent.  Now the car floats on the highway.

 OK on to the next little project that I'm still trying to get a handle
 on.  I've posted on this subjet before but still haven't figured it out.

 What I'm trying to do bring my speedo down (doesn't have to be perfect)
 to a normal indication.  Currently it registers 130Km/hr at 100 Km/hr.
 So its roughly 30K's over.  Which I could live with except my speedo
only
 registers 140 and often it remains buried...

 Here is my current setup:

 Trans:  M31 (info from dealer, I suspect its a TH250 or TH350 from the
 pan shape)
 Speedo Drive gear:  10 teeth (purple, original)
 Speedo Driven gear:  18 teeth (brown, first crack with the dealer)
 Rear end:  3.08
 Tires: 215R75/15

 Now to get everything back to original I would have to purchase the 19
 tooth driven gear ($16.89)(natural) and the adapter ($76.12)(which has a
 ratio of 0.8241, stamped C)(there are 5 other adapters ranging from
1.300
 to 0.7333 ratios).  So I can spend the $100 for the whole setup or just
 20 bucks for a different gear.  GM's computer give me 5 gears with teeth
 ranging from 18 to 22 teeth.  I'm hoping that one of these will bring my
 speedo indication down some.  There are 17 other gears ranging from  27
 to 45 teeth but I think they require a different sleeve or sensor as
 indicated on the chart I got from GM.

 Any help in this matter would be greatly appreciated.

 Thanks in advance

 JK McCall

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 07:14:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Pnntiac/Olds 455's

Olds and Pontiac engines are different engines.  The Pontiac is a
distinctive design, similar to all other Pontiacs but the exact same
"big" block as the 400-421-455 Pontiacs.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
 revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
 information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
 Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
 been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 07:24:40 -0400
Subject: Re: engine choice

I think youve hit it right on the nose with driving style...if youre the
type of guy who likes to feel a certain amount of power when he drives,
you'll be needing to burn the same amount of gas in either engine to get
that power...I'm driving a Chevy 350-equipped Regal while my Cutlass
engine is being rebuilt...and it gets the same gas mileage with a similar
cam, compression, and gears. I'm sure the looser stall doesn't help any,
but it sure helps power be closer to resembling the 455 (in its
most Chevy of ways).  I was as happy with the 455 scooting the heavier car
along at 2000rpm as I am at 3500 in the Chevy.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
 revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
 information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
 Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
 been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

From: david.chontofalsky@mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 08:42:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Pnntiac/Olds 455's

Is there any difference between Olds and Pontiac 455 engines?

>>>>>YES!!!!!!!  Buick,Olds and Pontiac 455's are all different!!!!!!!  You
can identify an Olds produced V8 by it having a oil filler tube behind the
water pump.  (The exception to this are the older small block Chevrolet V8's.
they have the filler spout also.)  Buick distributers are on the front at an
angle right behing the water pump and Pontiac V8's intake sits up sort of
like a spider, you can see the valley pan between the intake ports.  These
just are the way I identify them quickly in the junk yard,  there are alot
more differerences internally/externally  Valve covers are different Pontiac's
are sort of domed, Olds are sort of flat and chisled and Buicks are ribbed
(some years, etc)  Hope this helps. .
David.Chontofalsky@mcmail,vanderbilt.edu<<<<<<<

------------------------------

From: david.chontofalsky@mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 08:48:19 -0400
Subject: Re: More 69 H/O Info

   I never saw this return posted, please forgive me if this is redundant.
David
  ******For those who want the correct mirrors for the '69 H/O, a guy who
works where I do reproduces these.  HE has a SC/Rambler and is a member of the
AMC Owners assocation.  He put his card on my H/O in the parking garage,
asking me if I knew any '69 H/O owners looking for excellent repro mirrors.
SInce they were so hard to come by he took it upon himself to make quality
reproductions. I personally have not seen the quality of the goods, BUT I
have seen the SC/Rambler and it is exceptionally sharp!   Anyone interested or
needs these Email me and I will give you his name and number for you to
contact him.. David.Chontofalsky@MCMAIL.VANDERBILT.EDU*******

                  The correct teardrop outside mirrors are unique to the 69
          H/O and are very hard to come by (trust me on this one)



------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:02:37 -0400
Subject: Re: More Wiper Fun was...Re: Wiper Motor Adventures

>	Well, not quite.  I turned the motor on after I got the other
>things out of the car, and it sat there spinning happy.  Ok, cool.  A
>while later, I went back to try it again, and...nothing.  Not even a
>click.  Grrr.

Maybe heat soak after you switched it off the first time caused it to
seize up shortly thereafter. How about trying it again after letting it
cool for a few hours? (Although it is going to need attention anyway,
from the sound of it.) I think somebody else already mentioned that you
should doublecheck for clean connections _and_ a good ground.

>The little washer pump would make noise when I pushed the
>switch in, so I don't think the switch is bad (although I'll get in there
>with the tester to be sure).

Nah, if it worked the first time...

>So why would the motor suddenly decide to
>give up the ghost when it had zero load on it when it wouldn't burn up
>even after fighting the frozen arms for so long?

But the frozen arms wouldn't allow it to operate, and I'd guess that the
circuit breaker would kick in pretty soon and cycle on and off indefinitely.
(I'm also guessing -- jeez, this is a lot of guessing :-) -- that the unit
_has_ a circuit breaker in the first place; newer cars routinely do for the
wipers and headlamps.) So the motor never had a chance to self-destruct
while the seized-up linkage was connected.

>	I even went down to the junkyard this afternoon to see if the
>motor on that 62 would fit.  It sure looks similar, but the part numbers
>are definetly different.  The guy there said it would be $20, and a
>prayer that it worked.

"Shirley" there's some way you can test it before buying it? The different
part numbers may or may not be significant. See if the connectors are
the same. If it's still in the car, see if the dash control indicates the
same number of speeds as yours, or has/hasn't got an intermittent setting,
and that sort of thing. I seem to recall that you said the '62 unit was a
Cadillac, which may imply some more bells and whistles on it than yours.
Good luck...
- --
Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Jon442@aol.com
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:14:46 -0400
Subject: Re: 69 H/O Identification

>'69 HO will also have the Hurst Olds insignia on the upper part of
>the front seats above the ribbed back section.
>
>I think the code on the TH400 should be "AO", but I'll have to check this
>
>
These replies were posted on the board about a '69 H/O and are not correct.
There are gold stripes on the headrests, but no insignias. And the tranny
code is OH.

Regards,

Jon Wessel
Hurst/Olds Club of America Director

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:31:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Speedo drive gears:

I think the dealer or a transmission shop or speed shop/performance trans
place would be able to tell you what trans you have from the id tag on the
trans (probably pretty grimmy), and from the rear end gear ratio, what trans
speedo gears that you need.

Sorry, but without knowing what trans you have, it's difficult to impossible
to know.  I think sorting out the trans speedo gears is sort of magical.  You
might have to contact a number of places before anyone has the information.

Let us know what you find, and who found a solution.  With all the gear, trans
 swaps being talked about, this info is pretty valuable.

David Brown
dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu    (312) 702-9157
"Oldsmobile - powerful roadsters with big V8s"
- ----------------------
<snip>

 Here is my current setup:

 Trans:  M31 (info from dealer, I suspect its a TH250 or TH350 from the
 pan shape)
 Speedo Drive gear:  10 teeth (purple, original)
 Speedo Driven gear:  18 teeth (brown, first crack with the dealer)
 Rear end:  3.08
 Tires: 215R75/15

<snip>

 Thanks in advance

 JK McCall

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:45:00 -0400
Subject: Re: More Wiper Fun was...Re: Wiper Motor Adventures

Maybe there is a weak (shorted) spot on the wiper motor's armature, and it's
now resting at that spot.  Check the armature and field coil(s) with a ohm
meter for continuity (normal voltage path).  This is generally 0.1 Ohm or
probably under 10 Ohms through the load.  Check for any shorts (abnormal
voltable path).  This would show up as anything other than almost infinite
resistance.

The shop manual is best, but just about any motor diagnosis writeup would give
 the basics.

Hope this helps and Good luck!

David Brown
dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu    (312) 702-9157
"Oldsmobile - powerful roadsters with big V8s"

------------------------------

From: Scott Nolan <snolan@chat.carleton.ca>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:57:11 -0400
Subject: Tranny id ??

i was wondering where i might find any ID numbers etc on my tranny on my
65 F 85. I have taken the numbers off the engine, manifolds etc but never
had a chance to climb underneath the car to search for numbers on the
tranny (the snow came the next day after i blocked her up) With the very
pleasant weather lately, i was hoping to get under there and write down
any numbers off the tranny, of course i would appreciate any proper
direction on where to look before i crawl under there. Especially since i
may only have a limited time to do the car thing because now i have a
spring worklist that my wife has compiled!!! ugg... i hate spring
cleanup...it consumes valuable car time....;)


- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Nolan           Carleton University
`Please God, give a bald guy a break, amen' -Homer (as in Simpson!)
Email address: snolan@chat.carleton.ca
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: lawrencr@kostabi.gdls.com (Robert Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:00:42 -0400
Subject: Re: More Wiper Fun was...Re: Wiper Motor Adventures

> >	I even went down to the junkyard this afternoon to see if the
> >motor on that 62 would fit.  It sure looks similar, but the part numbers
> >are definetly different.  The guy there said it would be $20, and a
> >prayer that it worked.
>
> "Shirley" there's some way you can test it before buying it? The different
> part numbers may or may not be significant. See if the connectors are
> the same. If it's still in the car, see if the dash control indicates the
> same number of speeds as yours, or has/hasn't got an intermittent setting,
> and that sort of thing. I seem to recall that you said the '62 unit was a
> Cadillac, which may imply some more bells and whistles on it than yours.
> Good luck...
> --
> Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431

That's what I thought.  I tried to put a "similar" unit on a '75 88, one
time.  It looked the same, but had a different part number.  The electrical
connection was the same.  The bolt pattern was the same.  The linkage to the
arms was slightly different.  D'oh!  The linkage was welded to the motor
shaft so I couldn't swap it.  D'oh!  It offset the wipers on the windshield,
and the linkage banged against the car when it turned.  D'oh!

-
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Robert Lawrence   | These opinions are strictly my own, lawrencr@gdls.com
|       ____ (810) 825-8007    |   ___<____>======
                  |  <o_o_o_o_o_o>     Tanks, for your support!



------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:35:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Control Arm Bushings

At 09:35 PM 3/12/96 -0400, you wrote:
>I went to get some new tires today at NTW, and I decided they might as well
>align my front end. When I came back, they said they didn't do the
>alignment because my control arm bushings needed to be replaced.
>
>I wonder if they meant the upper or lower bushings. Anyway, they estimated
>it would cost about $200 for parts/labor. I think this is too much, but am
>I wrong? I was eventually going to buy a Kanter front end rebuild kit, I
>believe those bushings are included.
>
>My question: how hard is it to rebuild one's front end? I know it's a
>loaded question, but generally speaking, what's required? The air
>conditioning setup is in the way on the left hand side of the car, but the
>right side is clear. Also, if it's a little while before I replace them,
>there's no chance my wheels would roll if, is there? =)
>
>Any help would be great! Thanks, laterz...
>BeaTniK


I've seen a few other responses to this, but let me tell you my
experience.

I have just had the lower control arm bushings replaced on my '64
Jetstar 88.  The car had been emitting all sorts of clunking
sounds from the front end whenever I'd go over a bump or reverse
direction.

I had a local garage do it, and the whole thing (parts, labor, front-end
alignment) cost me $310.  I thought it was money well spent.  It took them
5 hours to do the job, and that included at least one trip to a local
machine shop to help the mechanic get a frozen bolt out.  The parts were
$70 of that total, by the way.

One thing I was pretty certain of before taking the car in and extremely
certain of afterwards is that this was a job that I could not have
done myself.  I don't have the equipment to remove frozen bolts, and I
certainly did not want to play around with removing springs, which is
necessary to replace the bushings.  I know that springs can be removed
by shade-tree mechanics who know what they're doing, but I didn't want
to play around with it.

I'd say that $200 is an excellent price for the parts and labor, and this
is something I'd leave to the professionals!   :)


************************************************
Daniel A. Gulino
Associate Professor and Graduate Chairman
Department of Chemical Engineering
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio  45701-2979
(614) 593-1495
(614) 593-0873 (fax)
gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu
http://www.ent.ohiou.edu/che/faculty/gulino.html
(or just open the window and shout!)
************************************************

------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:45:25 -0400
Subject: Re: More Wiper Fun was...Re: Wiper Motor Adventures

At 01:12 AM 3/13/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>	I dug into the wiper problem again yesterday, and finally got
>around to disconnecting the transmission rods.  After I poped them off
>the motor I thought "Hmm, lets see if I can get these things to move
>manually".  So, I pushed and pulled on them.  Hard.  Then really hard.
>Nothing.  Not even a little.  Hmmm, could this be the problem?  So, my
>next step was to drop the transmission arms, and the things the wiper
>arms themselves attach to, and tried to work with them out of the car. Still
>wouldn't budge.  Out came the Liquid Wrench and rubber mallet.  After I
>drown the things in LW, and some pounding on the linkage, I FINALLY got
>them to budge.  After about 20 minutes of just working them back and
>fourth, they finally seemed pretty smooth.  Cool! :)  Problem solved,
>right?
>
>	Well, not quite.  I turned the motor on after I got the other
>things out of the car, and it sat there spinning happy.  Ok, cool.  A
>while later, I went back to try it again, and...nothing.  Not even a
>click.  Grrr.  The little washer pump would make noise when I pushed the
>switch in, so I don't think the switch is bad (although I'll get in there
>with the tester to be sure).  So why would the motor suddenly decide to
>give up the ghost when it had zero load on it when it wouldn't burn up
>even after fighting the frozen arms for so long?  Arg!
>	
>	I even went down to the junkyard this afternoon to see if the
>motor on that 62 would fit.  It sure looks similar, but the part numbers
>are definetly different.  The guy there said it would be $20, and a
>prayer that it worked.
>	
>		Any ideas?
>		
>			Scott
>		1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98


Scott,

Sometimes you get the bear, and sometimes the bear gets you.

It's possible that some plastic part inside the motor, which hadn't
been put under any load for however many years your wiper motor was
inactive, dried out during that time and decided to crack when you
operated it.  You say that you turned the motor on and it spun happily.
When you went back "a while later," it didn't work.

Did you try turning it on and off a few times while it was working?  It's
possible that it might not have worked even if you had tried to turn it
on again immediately after turning it off.  Sitting for a while might
have had nothing to do with your problem.  But I'm just guessing here,
remember.

The thing to do is what you would do with any problem of this sort.  Eliminate
possible causes one by one.  Be sure that the motor is getting current, that
the ground connection is ok, and so forth.

I did this with the original wiper motor in my car, and I did ultimately
determine
that the problem was in the motor.  I called a couple of local electric shops
who advertised in the phone book as repairing electric motors (but not
specifically
wiper motors, and they all told me that motors of this size were far too small
for them to work on.  The reasoning apparently is that the cost for them to
fix such a motor than the cost of buying a new or rebuilt one.  I'd bite the
bullet, if your wallet can afford to, and go buy a new or rebuilt one and put
the problem behind you.

Remember the rule about fixing _anything_ things in old cars:

                                Nothing's ever easy.



************************************************
Daniel A. Gulino
Associate Professor and Graduate Chairman
Department of Chemical Engineering
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio  45701-2979
(614) 593-1495
(614) 593-0873 (fax)
gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu
http://www.ent.ohiou.edu/che/faculty/gulino.html
(or just open the window and shout!)
************************************************

------------------------------

From: eekstrom@coris.com (WLBRK Ekstrom Edward)
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:51:36 -0400
Subject: Transmission Paint

     I am  rebuilding my 350 Turbohydromatic transmission for my '72
     Cutlass.  While it is out, I thought I'd paint the transmission oil
     pan.  Does anyone know how I go about matching the original blue pan
     color?

     Ed Ekstrom
     '72 Cutlass ragtop

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 04:37:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Control Arm Bushings

     Shop around for someone to install the control arm bushings.  My
     fiance went in to have an alignment done on her truck (olds powered,
     so it's still on topic... barely) with a special coupon they had.  Of
     course it was just a draw to get you in so they could tell you you
     need $450 worth of front-end work.  She decided to get two second
     opinions, both said she only needed lower ball joints and an idler
     arm.  The cheaper place one was $150 for parts, labor and the
     alignment.  Wow!  If you've tried to take off a ball joint without a
     hoist and the proper tools you'll know it's well worth that in
     skinned-knuckles-savings alone.

     But if ya got the proper tools and time, it's possible at home.  I've
     never done a complete rebuild so I can't say.  But you may want to
     look into polyurethane bushings.  I've seen new ones that come with a
     grease zerk installed which should stop their squeaking reputation.


______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________ Subject: Control Arm Bushings Author:
oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET Date:    3/12/96 7:06 PM


I went to get some new tires today at NTW, and I decided they might as well
align my front end. When I came back, they said they didn't do the
alignment because my control arm bushings needed to be replaced.

I wonder if they meant the upper or lower bushings. Anyway, they estimated
it would cost about $200 for parts/labor. I think this is too much, but am
I wrong? I was eventually going to buy a Kanter front end rebuild kit, I
believe those bushings are included.

My question: how hard is it to rebuild one's front end? I know it's a
loaded question, but generally speaking, what's required? The air
conditioning setup is in the way on the left hand side of the car, but the
right side is clear. Also, if it's a little while before I replace them,
there's no chance my wheels would roll if, is there? =)

Any help would be great! Thanks, laterz...
BeaTniK

     ------------------------------------------------------------------
     1965 Oldsmobile 98 Town Sedan   TIP # 1048   I Trade Live Concerts
     Always Buying Nirvana Items   MiSTie # 53344       Keep On Skankin
     ------------------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: lawrencr@kostabi.gdls.com (Robert Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:50:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Control Arm Bushings

> I had a local garage do it, and the whole thing (parts, labor, front-end
> alignment) cost me $310.  I thought it was money well spent.  It took them
> 5 hours to do the job, and that included at least one trip to a local
> machine shop to help the mechanic get a frozen bolt out.  The parts were
> $70 of that total, by the way.
> One thing I was pretty certain of before taking the car in and extremely
> certain of afterwards is that this was a job that I could not have
> done myself.  I don't have the equipment to remove frozen bolts, and I
> certainly did not want to play around with removing springs, which is
> necessary to replace the bushings.  I know that springs can be removed
> by shade-tree mechanics who know what they're doing, but I didn't want
> to play around with it.
>
> I'd say that $200 is an excellent price for the parts and labor, and this
> is something I'd leave to the professionals!   :)

I've seen a couple of comments about the difficulty and danger of removing
springs.  I've only done it once, and it was about 15 years ago, but it
wasn't a big deal.  The danger is that the spring is under compression,
and it goes under sudden decompression when you attempt to remove it.  At
which point it will fly off and try to hit you.  There is a tool called
a spring compressor, that you can buy or rent.  You use this to keep the
spring compressed (actually compress it more), when you remove it.  The
spring just drops out.

One of the main problems with doing front end work, is that a lot of the
parts (e.g. bushings) are pressed in.  That means that you need a press,
two cars, or rides to the machine shop, since your car is all apart.

Front end work is stuff you can do at home, if you don't mind spending
the weekend under your car.  Read the Chilton's.  Rent the special tools.
I worked five hours trying to remove a ball joint once.  I finally broke
down and rented a fork.  It popped right off.

If you don't want to spend the time under your car, take it to a garage.

Shops pull their labor prices from a book that tells them the average
time to do the job you want done for your year, make, and model car.
That's a pretty good indicator of the size of the job you're tackling.
If you're like me, you can pretty much double that to get an estimate
of how long it will take you.

There is always one frozen bolt.

-
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Robert Lawrence   | These opinions are strictly my own, lawrencr@gdls.com
|       ____ (810) 825-8007    |   ___<____>======
                  |  <o_o_o_o_o_o>     Tanks, for your support!

------------------------------

From: Rocket Boy <clint@darklair.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 21:25:34 -0400
Subject: Intro...

Hi!

Just though I'd say hi and introduce myself.  My name is Clint Thompson
and I'm in the process of buying an '81 Cutlass Supreme from a friend.
I'll be building up the car over the course of the next year with an LT1
and susp/tranny upgrades.

Previously I've owned two Camaro's (an '89 305 and a '93 Indy Pace Car
Z28), but I've spent years helping my step father repair several Olds
(mid 70's Cutlass's, 98's, etc...) and I wish I had paid more attention.
*sigh*

Anyway, it's nice to know that there are other Olds enthusiasts out
there.  8^)

Clint

Rocket Boy                                  '81 Cutlass Supreme
clint@darklair.com                        by O l d s m o b i l e

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:19:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Control Arm Bushings

>The danger is that the spring is under compression,
>and it goes under sudden decompression when you attempt to remove it.

I believe this is what the shade-tree mechanics refer to as "BANG!"

>At which point it will fly off and try to hit you.

And if you think you will be able to step out of the way in time,
think again. We are talking explosive force here. I've seen it.

>There is a tool called
>a spring compressor, that you can buy or rent.  You use this to keep the
>spring compressed (actually compress it more), when you remove it.  The
>spring just drops out.

Yup. I think the main thing is to use the right tool for the job, after
which yes, you can do it yourself. The real pain-in-the-neck part comes
in separating the pressed-in parts.

>Front end work is stuff you can do at home, if you don't mind spending
>the weekend under your car.  Read the Chilton's.  Rent the special tools.
>I worked five hours trying to remove a ball joint once.  I finally broke
>down and rented a fork.  It popped right off.

I notice that Trak Auto is now advertising _free_ special tool loaners,
although I haven't taken advantage of it yet. The clip art accompanying
the ad showed, if I remember right, a large puller, pickle fork and a
couple of other beefy-looking hand tools. Most likely they take your
Visa card number as security.

>Shops pull their labor prices from a book that tells them the average
>time to do the job you want done for your year, make, and model car.

"Service Labor Time Standards", or SLTS, is one such source. I like a
service place that bothers to look up their time estimates, as opposed
to staring off into space and then quoting a figure, if I ask them for
a non-routine repair.

>That's a pretty good indicator of the size of the job you're tackling.
>If you're like me, you can pretty much double that to get an estimate
>of how long it will take you.

Too true.

>There is always one frozen bolt.

This is a metaphor for life, isn't it?  :-)
- --
Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:48:13 -0400
Subject: Engines available

Went to the *other* scrap metal place to unload the trailer, get rid of
appliances, etc. today. As luck would have it, there sat a 350 with #5 heads,
and another with #7 heads. I bought both. How very nice to be able to do so
w/o hassle.

So, anybody wanting a 350 core motor, or just some #5 or #7 heads, I'll sell
them  real cheap right now. $40/pair plus shipping. Oh, the #7 heads will need
at least one guide- they treat those things like junk down there! If you want,
I can even dismantle the heads, have them cleaned, checked, and treated to a
valve job and guide repair, for a nominal additional fee. I'd really rather
just ship them off as is, and guaranteed to pass crack inspection.
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Rod Rickenbach <rod@hopi.dtcc.edu>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:47:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Intro...

On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, Rocket Boy wrote:

> Just though I'd say hi and introduce myself.  My name is Clint Thompson
> and I'm in the process of buying an '81 Cutlass Supreme from a friend.
> I'll be building up the car over the course of the next year with an LT1
> and susp/tranny upgrades.
>
> Previously I've owned two Camaro's (an '89 305 and a '93 Indy Pace Car
> Z28), but I've spent years helping my step father repair several Olds
> (mid 70's Cutlass's, 98's, etc...) and I wish I had paid more attention.
> *sigh*
>
> Anyway, it's nice to know that there are other Olds enthusiasts out
> there.  8^)

Frankly, you sound more like a Chevy enthusiast...  Why not put an Olds
motor in it?

- -Rod
-
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
    Rod Rickenbach                                       Delaware Tech
     rod@dtcc.edu                                 Computer Services Department
http://www.dtcc.edu/~rod                            Stanton/Wilmington Campus

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 16:09:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Pnntiac/Olds 455's

On Wed, 13 Mar 1996 david.chontofalsky@mcmail.vanderbilt.edu wrote:
> >>>>>YES!!!!!!!  Buick,Olds and Pontiac 455's are all different!!!!!!!  You
can > identify an Olds produced V8 by it having a oil filler tube behind the
water > pump.  (The exception to this are the older small block Chevrolet
V8's.  they > have the filler spout also.)  Buick distributers are on the
front at an angle > right behing the water pump and Pontiac V8's intake sits
up sort of like a > spider, you can see the valley pan between the intake
ports.  These just are the > way I identify them quickly in the junk yard,
there are alot more differerences > internally/externally  Valve covers are
different Pontiac's are sort of domed, > Olds are sort of flat and chisled and
Buicks are ribbed (some years, etc)  Hope > this helps.

The Buick distributor location is a dead giveaway being up front like
that. Not a serviceability bonus, since it is dangerously close to the
fan belt and adjusting the dwell requires nerves of steel. My 300 Buick
has valve covers that are rounded sort of like the 50's Buick nailhead
engine BTW.

The Olds oil filler tube is probably the best external identifier,
followed by the canted oil filter buried deep under the middle of the
passenger side of the block. Plus I think all Rockets have a thermostat
bypass tube next to the thermostat housing with some having a little
rubber hose, others a metal tube.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #117
********************************
