
oldsmobile-digest          Monday, 15 April 1996       Volume 01 : Number 148


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 11:55:09 -0300
Subject: Re: More Head Stuff

At 10:05 AM 4/14/96 -0300, you wrote:
>
>Hmmm, just noticed... don't take Mondello's table as gospel. For example, 
>just noticed he has #7 heads for a 350 listed for '68, but mine are #5... 
>probably use it as a very general guide only. Like his lifter chart, 
>which I was also going to repro here until I realized it was almost 
>impossible to decipher... 
>
>Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
>
>
>
>
I noticed that, too...my 69 has #5 heads also (not 5a)

- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: urbanch@magi.com (Chris Urban)
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 12:00:04 -0300
Subject: Re: Crane Cams? 

Differences are minimal.


>
>Curious to know if anyone here uses a Crane cam in their Olds. Can anyone 
>offer an opinion, comparative with Engle/Mondello or otherwise?
>
>Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: isagil <isagil@CAM.ORG>
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 17:47:33 -0300
Subject: Re: Rear end

David Paulison wrote:
> 
> I went out and looked at the rear diff. in my 69 Cutlass tonight.  What is
> the most desirable differential (posi or non-posi)? 

Go for the posi. Instead of burning that rear right tire, you'll have more 
traction. Posi differentials deliver the power to the wheel that have the 
most grip on the pavement...not, as it happens with non-posi differentials, 
to the wheel that is on that ice spot.

I'm not sure though if posi rear ends are reliable behind very high, high, 
high performance engines. Those diffs have small clutches inside, and that's 
why racer use a spool instead. You can't drive with a spool on the streets, 
because the wheels are locked together and you'd wind up breaking the 
differential on your third turn.

> I am not familiar
> enough with them to really know, other than there are 10 and 12 bolt ones.
> I assume that is the number of bolts around the rear cover?  

Usually, that's how it works. But some Buicks and Olds diffs have twelve bolt 
covers, and if you check the carrier inside the diff, they have only 10 
bolts. I've been told that this is uncommon, but it happens in late '60s Olds 
and Buicks. The real number of bolts is the one on the ring gera carrier, 
inside the diff.

>And how do you
> measure the size (in inches)?  

The size is the one of the big ring gear parallel to the wheels. 10 bolts of 
that era might have an 8.2" ring gear; Starting in 1970, 10 bolts might be 
8.5 inches. Newer 10 bolts found under the last rwd Cutlass and C**v* are 
little 7.5".

As for the 12 bolts, I think they all have a 8.875" ring gear. I'm not sure 
of that one.

> Is a 12 bolt always the same size?  Mine has
> a 12 bolt, based on my earlier assumption; found a W-27 12 bolt cover in
> Year One for $89.00 (reproduction, of course).
> 
> Also what are "NOS" parts?  Apparently _NOT_ nitrous oxide...
> 
> Thanks for the info...
> --
> Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
> dpauliso@metrolink.net

<isagil@cam.org>

------------------------------

From: Scott R Clark <mickeyd@selway.umt.edu>
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:21:00 -0300
Subject: Strange Poncho..was Re: 1961-63 Olds 215?

> In 1961, Olds (and Buick and Pontiac, referred to collectively as "The 
> BOP Cars") came out with their new small cars 
> (Olds F-85, Pontiac Tempest, Buick Special).  All had available a new, all 
> aluminum V-8, displacing 215 cubic inches.  This engine was standard in 
> the Buick and Olds, optional in the Pontianc.  

	Anybody else out there ever see the "standard" Pontiac engine in 
thoes little cars?  I test drove a 61 Tempest a few years ago (before I 
got smart and bought an Olds :) Anyway, the thing had this bizzar little 
"Slant 4".  It was litteraly half a V8!!  It had a 4bbl carb, coupled to 
a 2 speed auto.  The acceleration was less than neck-snapping to say the 
least.  But, you would think that if you could fit half a V8 in there, 
you could fit the other half, right?  And the casting mold was not from 
the 215, either if I'm not mistaken.  I think it was a 389...
	Anyway, just something to think about..
		
		
		Scott
	1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98

------------------------------

From: Scott R Clark <mickeyd@selway.umt.edu>
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:37:08 -0300
Subject: Re: Entombed Cars

> Interesting that I should see this. Just read the same (sorta) story in
> the Fort Wayne (Ind.) Journal Gazette, except in this case it was in some
> woman's living room(?) in Florida. Seems herfather had bought the Vette,
> for some reason sealed it in a room in his grocery store, and when he died,
> the new store owner wanted it moved. Ergo, it ended up in her living room,
> then was purchased by a vette dealer in Napoleon, Ohio. Wonder how many of
> those cars there are?
> 

	Although not entirely the same sort of deal, when I was growing up 
in Miles City (also in Montana, but only about 10k pop.) my best friends 
dad had a couple old cars he didn't drive any more because "they drank 
too much gas".  One was a blue '68 Camaro that sat out in his driveway, 
the other was a brown '68....Toronado!!  It had been sitting in his 
garage for about 10 years when I knew about it.  I remember the body was 
stright as an arrow, although the paint wasn't the best.  The hood had 
some sun damage.  The interior was brown and was in good shape with the 
exception of the passenger side of the front seat.  It was shredded 
pretty bad (I think his dog destroyed it.)  It was never run while I 
knew the kid, but the engine was clean and definetly all there.  As far 
as I know the guy just parked it there one day and was there ever 
since.  Also, we discovered (don't ask how!!) that the trunk could be 
unlatched from the *inside*!  Chalk that one up to the "crazy things 
kids do" I think.  Anyway, the thing had less than 50K on it.  I might 
be getting back that way this summer on my vacation.  Maybe I'll see 
what happened to it.  AAAAAA!  Is this one of the signs of....Toro 
Virus??!!  ;)

	
	And on another note, I finally sold my 75 F*rd LTD!!  I got a 
whopping $500 for the thing (some kid wanted the 400 out of it for his 
truck).  Now I can finally afford to do some work on my Olds.  Brakes 
and front end probibly.  I already blew $100 of it for struts for my 
Camaro (what can I say...they were original with 131K on them!)  but I'm 
saving the rest for my Olds.  Now if I can just get a few hundred for my 
'75 Caddy....I could get that new hood and front fender in CdA!!
	
	
			Scott
		1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98 

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:51:21 -0300
Subject: [none]

 22:49:00 EDT, you write:

>The 365-Hp 442 Rocket 455 V8 H.C. (4V) is listed as standard for the 442,
and
>as the W32 for the Cutlass Supreme.  It says for coupe/conv. only.6

Judging by this, you could get the W32 either with or without the Y79 SX
Package.

>The standard motor for the Cutlass Supreme is the 310-Hp Rocket 350
>V8 H.C. (4V).
>
>It does not mention an SX package.  Is that the same thing as a Supreme?

Look at your Cutlass Supreme page, and look for option Y79.  Is it there?  It
should be, as this option is listed in the Produce selling feature book that
was printed in Septemer of '69.  The options is your book (I don't have one)
are in alphabetical order, so naturally it should be toward the end of the
list.  It may be in the "Special Use Equipment" area at the very end of the
list.  And it may only say Y79 Performance Package.

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:51:19 -0300
Subject: Re: As requested, Info on W-40 Option 

In a message dated 96-04-13 22:05:53 EDT, you write:

>Where _DID_ you get all those books, anyway???

I used to work for an Oldsmobile dealer and most of them just had a way of
following me home.  Some of them were bought at Hershey & Carlisle.  And I'm
always looking for more!

Paul

------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 17:01:46 -0300
Subject: Re: Strange Poncho..was Re: 1961-63 Olds 215?

On Sun, 14 Apr 1996, Scott R Clark wrote:

> 
> 
> > In 1961, Olds (and Buick and Pontiac, referred to collectively as "The 
> > BOP Cars") came out with their new small cars 
> > (Olds F-85, Pontiac Tempest, Buick Special).  All had available a new, all 
> > aluminum V-8, displacing 215 cubic inches.  This engine was standard in 
> > the Buick and Olds, optional in the Pontianc.  
> 
> 	Anybody else out there ever see the "standard" Pontiac engine in 
> thoes little cars?  I test drove a 61 Tempest a few years ago (before I 
> got smart and bought an Olds :) Anyway, the thing had this bizzar little 
> "Slant 4".  It was litteraly half a V8!!  It had a 4bbl carb, coupled to 
> a 2 speed auto.  The acceleration was less than neck-snapping to say the 
> least.  But, you would think that if you could fit half a V8 in there, 
> you could fit the other half, right?  And the casting mold was not from 
> the 215, either if I'm not mistaken.  I think it was a 389...
> 	Anyway, just something to think about..
> 		
> 		
> 		Scott
> 	1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98
> 
> 
Scott,

You're right.  The Pontiac's 4-cylinder was literally split from the big 
Pontiac's V-8.


Dan Gulino

------------------------------

From: isagil <isagil@CAM.ORG>
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 20:18:37 -0300
Subject: Re: Strange Poncho..was Re: 1961-63 Olds 215?

Scott R Clark wrote:
> 
> > In 1961, Olds (and Buick and Pontiac, referred to collectively as "The
> > BOP Cars") came out with their new small cars
> > (Olds F-85, Pontiac Tempest, Buick Special).  All had available a new, all
> > aluminum V-8, displacing 215 cubic inches.  This engine was standard in
> > the Buick and Olds, optional in the Pontianc.
> 
>         Anybody else out there ever see the "standard" Pontiac engine in
> thoes little cars?  I test drove a 61 Tempest a few years ago (before I
> got smart and bought an Olds :) Anyway, the thing had this bizzar little
> "Slant 4".  It was litteraly half a V8!!  It had a 4bbl carb, coupled to
> a 2 speed auto.  The acceleration was less than neck-snapping to say the
> least.  But, you would think that if you could fit half a V8 in there,
> you could fit the other half, right?  And the casting mold was not from
> the 215, either if I'm not mistaken.  I think it was a 389...
>         Anyway, just something to think about..
> 
> 
>                 Scott
>         1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98

And it made me think about this mid-seventies Pontiac Ventura equipped 
with this strange V-6... which was again a butchered V-8. This time, they 
simply cut the two rear cylinders, and thus a V-6 was born! The 
distributor even had eight plugs, but two were left unused.

This engine made my father swear like hell. It was his last Pontiac.

But these undesirable engines should not be diregarded, because now they 
are oddities from the past. The butchered slant-4, the cut V-6, and even 
the V-4-6-8 383 Cadillac are at the same time pieces of history and 
pieces of sh**.

<isagil@cam.org>

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 18:05:23 -0300
Subject: 69 H/O wheels

Found a guy with two original 69 H/O wheels.  He says, "The chrome is good.
The centers of the rims are painted silver (over gold, I think).  The center
ornaments have some pitting as I recall.  They are straight, no bumps
bruises, etc."  He is asking $75 each for them.  I was thinking of buying
them, but I don't want to spend that much...are they worth $75 each?
- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: Dave Voorhis <dave@armchair.mb.ca>
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 18:14:10 -0300
Subject: Re: Confession 

At 10:15 AM 13/04/96 -0300, you wrote:

>Ok, let me get this straight...the Toro-Virus is a South-of-the-Boarder kind
>of thing? Dave Voorhis, are you in agreement with this?!   :)

Well, I don't know.  I DO know I'm the only guy in a hundred mile radius
with three Toros, but just outside of a hundred miles, there's this other guy...

For many years, I thought I was the only one in the area to have the dreaded
disease.  Then, a couple of years ago, I heard about a guy that had three
'66 Toros.  I phoned him up, and asked if they were for sale.  "Sure," he said.

So my wife and I drove out to his farm in my '67 Toro.  We get there, knock
on the door, and he comes out.  He glances at my Toro, and says "Didja bring
boots?"

"Huh?" says I.

"Boots.  You'll need boots."

He gives me a pair of rubbers.  These easily had as much dried manure on the
inside as on the outside, but whatever -- I put them on.

He leads me out behind the barn.  There's the Toros -- all up to at least
their axles in mud and pigshit.  Every one is half disassembled and rusted
to the roof; the interiors are eaten by mice and rats and other things with
teeth.  Miscellaneous small parts are imbedded in the mud.  Larger bits like
hoods are leaning up against ramshackle buildings.

He's real proud of a car that had probably been yellow.  Or white.  "This
one's got all the options," he says.  Yeah, it probably did.  Once.  Now
most of those options were under two feet of swamp.

We move on to the next prize.  This one's been dredged out of the deep part,
so you can actually see the wheels.  There's no engine in it, the interior
is gone, and it has zero options.  He claimed the engine was busy being
rebuilt by some friend in town.  "Sure was fast when I was driving it," he
says.  Yeah, whatever.

I didn't bother looking at the third Toro.  As I recall, doing that would
have required swimming.

I talked to him a bit about parts and such.  He said he knew of a place that
had every part I could possibly need.  "Great!" said I, "Where?"

"You buy the cars, and I'll tell you."

I gave him back his boots and left.

So, was he a Toro disease infectee?  Hell, no.  Was he even a carrier?  Not
a chance.  You know, they make a vaccine by killing the virus, and the dead
virii activate the body's natural defenses.  My defenses had been weakened
by years of infection, so I wasn't affected, but I know what he was -- he
and his killed Toros were a Toro disease vaccine.

Dave Voorhis, Toro disease infectee
dave@armchair.mb.ca
http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave

------------------------------

From: Nick DiGiovanni <ndigiova@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 20:06:55 -0300
Subject: Re: Historical Info 

At 11:47 AM 4/13/96 -0300, you wrote:
>        I was talking with a friend of mine last week and he told me of an
>interesting toll free number you can call at General Motors.  If you give
>them the serial number of your car they will research their records and
>supply you with a restoration guide and a certificate that describes as as
>much iformation as they have available.  Like, where it was built, the
>dealer it was delivered to, all the option details including paint and
>dozens of other tidbits.
>
>        The number to call in CANADA is 1-800-263-3777.  The price is either
>$42.50 or $26.75 (cdn) depending on the year of vehicle.  You can expect
>delivery of the package in about six weeks.
>
>        By the way, how many Canadians are out there?
>
>__________________________________________________________
>S.G. Hartfelder		| Internet: stanh@compusmart.ab.ca
>18619 - 68 Ave.		| 1938 Oldsmobile - Street Rod
>Edmonton, AB  CANADA	| 1976 Camaro
>T5T 2M8			| <:)
>__________________________________________________________
>

I have used this service and it is well worth the $42 bucks.  However, you
must keep in mind that this service is only available if the car was
originally sold at a dealership in Canada.  Cars that were sold in Canada
were well documented.  Any car that was sold in the US will not have been
documented for options, shipping date, dealership etc.(unless you were able
to find the original bill of sales or the build sheet somewhere in the car).
The only GM division that is able to do this in the US is Pontiac and that
is because a private individual got a hold of all the Pontiac sales records
and now offers this same service for US sold cars.  We are pretty lucky here
in Canada :)

At least GM kept good records of total sales across countries.  Chrysler on
the other hand only recorded cars that were sold in the US.  In other words
if a Chrysler car was shipped and sold in Canada or Australia or Mexico, it
never existed according to the records.  Therefore if some Mopar guy tells
you that his car is 1 of 284 built, you can tell him that there are a bunch
more in other countries and nice try on your fine record keeping. He He !!

Nick DiGiovanni
Port Coquitlam, B.C.
1970 4-4-2 - "Snarls Softly and Carries a Big Kick"   

------------------------------

From: Jon442@aol.com
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 21:43:00 -0300
Subject: [none]

96-04-14 17:14:27 EDT, you write:

>Found a guy with two original 69 H/O wheels.  He says, "The chrome is good.
>The centers of the rims are painted silver (over gold, I think).  The center
>ornaments have some pitting as I recall.  They are straight, no bumps
>bruises, etc."  He is asking $75 each for them.  I was thinking of buying
>them, but I don't want to spend that much...are they worth $75 each?

My absolute answer is.... maybe :)   They are worth $75 to be sure, but I
don't know of anyone who can rechrome them, since that involves cutting the
centers out, rechroming the rims, and welding the centers back in place. A
tricky operation at best. 

Jon Wessel
H/OCA Director

------------------------------

From: lawrencr@kostabi.gdls.com (Robert Lawrence)
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 21:58:51 -0300
Subject: [none]

> >The 365-Hp 442 Rocket 455 V8 H.C. (4V) is listed as standard for the 442,
> and
> >as the W32 for the Cutlass Supreme.  It says for coupe/conv. only.6
> 
> Judging by this, you could get the W32 either with or without the Y79 SX
> Package.
> 
> >The standard motor for the Cutlass Supreme is the 310-Hp Rocket 350
> >V8 H.C. (4V).
> >
> >It does not mention an SX package.  Is that the same thing as a Supreme?
> 
> Look at your Cutlass Supreme page, and look for option Y79.  Is it there?  It
> should be, as this option is listed in the Produce selling feature book that
> was printed in Septemer of '69.  The options is your book (I don't have one)
> are in alphabetical order, so naturally it should be toward the end of the
> list.  It may be in the "Special Use Equipment" area at the very end of the
> list.  And it may only say Y79 Performance Package.

Alas, I don't have the whole book.  I only have xeroxed pages which have
information on the 98.  Some of those pages have info which apply to the
whole Olds line, but I don't have specific Cutlass options.  The price was 
right, though.  The Olds History Center sent it for free.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Lawrence   | 1970 Oldsmobile 98 Convertible               .^.
lawrencr@gdls.com |  _________,~--,___________\____________     /9|8\
(810) 825-8007    |  |                |~    |        ___   |    \}|{/
Sterling Hts., MI |  =------(-o-)-------------------( o )--=      v

  

------------------------------

From: bryce_smith@442.com (Bryceman)
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 22:09:15 -0300
Subject: Re: Crane Cams? 

>Curious to know if anyone here uses a Crane cam in their Olds. Can anyone
>offer an opinion, comparative with Engle/Mondello or otherwise?

Greg,
I am using a Crane cam in my 425. My 425 had the less desireable cam bank
angle so I could not use Mondello's cams. I originally wanted his JM 20-22.
The Crane is split duration like Mondello's but slightly higher lift and
duration than the 20-22. It came with lots of nice documentation but I had
to special order it and it cost double what Mondello wanted for the 20-22.
Sounds really nice at the stoplights, no real "lope" but just choppy enough
to make people stare. Below is the data that came with my cam.

PART #  790571
GRIND #  H-216/3027-25-12   "Hydraulic Max Velocity"
ENGINE IDENT: 1964-67 Oldsmobile V-8 45 degree bank angle 330-400-425 cu. in.
                (except 1966-400 and Toro 425 cu. in.)

VALVE SETTING: INTAKE .000   EXHAUST .000   HOT
LIFT:  INTAKE @ CAM 3027   @ VALVE 484
       EXHAUST @ CAM 3200  @ VALVE 512
ROCKER ARM RATIO: 1.6

CAM TIMING              OPENS         CLOSES         ADVERTISED DURATION
 @.004        INTAKE    25 DEG BTDC   67 DEG ABDC    272 DEG
tappet LIFT   EXHAUST   75 DEG BBDC   29 DEG ATDC    284 DEG

SPRING REQUIREMENTS:
LOADS:  CLOSED 95 LBS  @1.703  OR  1  45/64
        OPEN  268 LBS  @1.223

CAM TIMING              OPENS         CLOSES       MAX LIFT       DURATION
 @.050        INTAKE    1 DEG BTDC   35 DEG ABDC   107 DEG ATDC   216 DEG
tappet LIFT   EXHAUST  51 DEG BBDC  (3) DEG BTDC   117 DEG BTDC   228 DEG



 EXCESSIVE IRON rules the road!
'65 442
'66 Dynamic 88 B07 Apprehender
 bryceman@442.com
 www.442.com

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 23:33:02 -0300
Subject: '68 Toro Torque Converter 

Anyone with Tranny/Converter knowlege?

I fear the worst here........as I am weak when it comes to trannies and
tourqe coverters.

The other day I was driving my "68 Toro around and heard a slight "whine"
occasionally. It came and went, came and went, with no rhyme or reason (or so
it seemed). It never did it at an idle, and the car shifted well and snappy
through all gears.

As it got a bit worse, I  began to notice that it torque converter was always
on "high turbo pitch" as I will call it. The motor was running at high RPM's
relative to speed, and the whine became worse and more noticable. Still
shifting fine though.

I parked it. Drove next morning and was fine, until the car was up to
temperature. After about 30 miles into a trip, the whine came back (now
really noticable) and was throught out the power band and gear selection (all
the time the gearbox is still shifting well and at appropriate speeds). 

I HAD to go to shop yesterday (60 mile trip) as I hooked that 67 up there.
Jesus, was she whining! In 3rd gear I was pulling high revs but solid gear
connection as she responded when I need to accelerate. 

I looked at tranny fluid (was kinda shitty) pale pink as opposed to red and
very thin. Well, I remember NEVER changing the fluid in this car, ( I know
dummy me!). As you know, you can't "change" Transmission Fluid on a Toro. You
have to suck out 2-3 quarts out of filler and replace, drive around a bit,
resuck another 2-3 quarts etc....  until you have diluted in the new fluid
(you can really never get a complete change) this way, but what other choice
do you have?

This morning I did just that. (only had 6 quarts of Dextron though) After
doing so, she ran  like a champ! Super quite, nice, tight, snappy shifting
and power! ( I drove it for about 5 miles)

I leave the shop this afternoon to come home...she runs great...until...I get
about 40 miles into trip...The whine slowly, came back. Although quieter
without as much high turboing (turbos at full pitch). 

Question: Shall I re-suck another 6-10 quarts out and replace, or should I
drive this pig to nearest bone yard. Or is there a way to deactivate (bypass
the converter to shut it off). I realize that it will be doggy, but it won't
burn the coverter up totally.  I can't see doing a $700 rebuild on a torqure
converter in a 140K car! 

Thanking all in advance,


Greg  (who now has a Toro with Typhoid)  

------------------------------

From: isagil <isagil@CAM.ORG>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 02:52:33 -0300
Subject: Hurray!

My girlfriend just sold her VW Golf. I'm so happy! That car really was a 
piece of whatever...

Now, I don't think she's gonna buy a Toronado, but, hell, how knows?

<Isagil@cam.org>

------------------------------

From: johnspr@ix.netcom.com (JOHN PRESTON )
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 00:13:50 -0300
Subject: Re: Toro oil pan in G-Body...

You wrote: 
>
>I recently aquired a Toro 455 with the 5 quart oil pan.  Since I don't 
plan
>on building the 455 for awhile, I want to use the pan on my 403 that 
is in my
>79 Cutlass.  I know everybody knows that the Toro oil pan is special 
because
>it holds 1 extra quart of oil and fits in a G-Body chassis, but has 
anybody
>done this?????  I am concerned that the bottom of the pan will be 
lower than
>the frame, and it could possibly bottom out, thus removing the plug 
and 6
>quarts of oil......

I've just looked at the Toro-panned 455 in my '79 Cutlass and I'd judge 
the pan to be about 1/8" **higher than the front crossmember's lowest 
point.  My car is lowered about 2" below stock and I have no scrape 
marks on my pan.  I will say that the Toro makes engine installation & 
removal just a tad more difficult as you guide the engine back between 
the firewall & the crossmember due to increased depth of the Toro pan.

>Also, my 403 was rebuilt about 6 years ago and had about 15000 miles 
on it.
> When running 10W40, my oil pressure creeps down to under 20 lbs in 
gear at a
>stop.  At highways speeds, it is about 40 lbs.  I know that the 
service
>manual for a 70 Olds states that the pressure could be as low as 7 
lbs, (for
>a 455) but that seems a little to low for me.  
>
>Some background:  I did not use Mondellos oil restrictors, because 
when I
>went to insert the first one (according to his instructions), it 
mushroomed
>right over, so I scrapped that idea.  I also installed his oil pump 
spring,
>which is supposed to increase your pressure by 10-15 lbs, but that did 
squat,
>and my pressure remained the same.  
>So here is my question, if I install the Toro oil pan, what type of 
oil pump
>should I run?  Any thoughts?  And if possible, could I buy a Melling 
(etc)

I'm using a Mondello-modified Melling unit with the associated longer 
pickup.  My pressure curve is greater than 10 psi / 1000 rpm.

------------------------------

From: Jon442@aol.com
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 00:20:20 -0300
Subject: [none]

 two original 69 H/O wheels.  He says, "The chrome is good.
>>The centers of the rims are painted silver (over gold, I think).  The
center
>>ornaments have some pitting as I recall.  They are straight, no bumps
>>bruises, etc."  He is asking $75 each for them.  I was thinking of buying
>>them, but I don't want to spend that much...are they worth $75 each?


My absolute answer is.... maybe :)   They are worth $75 to be sure, but I
don't know of anyone who can rechrome them, since that involves cutting the
centers out, rechroming the rims, and welding the centers back in place. A
tricky operation at best. 

Jon Wessel
H/OCA Director

------------------------------

From: Rocket Boy <clint@darklair.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 07:44:22 -0300
Subject: Re: 91 bravada 4L60e

> anyone know of any mods to a 4L60E tranny to make it shift more firm?  it's
> basically a 700R4, but can you set it up like a worked 700R4? or do you have
> to worry about a computer? 

Both Art Carr and Trans-Go make shift kits for the 4L60E.  Several 
members of the Chubby Impala SS list are using them.  

BTW, was hanging out at the local Tastee Freeze where there's a Friday 
night weekly cruise sopt and there was a georgous '68 98 two door.  Man 
was that car BIG!!!   8^)

CLint

                          _________
Rocket Boy!             _|_ _\\____|_     '81 Cutlass Supreme
clint@darklair.com       |___//____|            by Oldsmobile
                                          (12:1 steering box!! WooWoo!!!)    

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 01:00:12 -0300
Subject: SB heads

Original post (thanks to Cut & Paste!)

- -------------------------------------------------------------
MODEL   YEAR            CASTING #       ID      DISPLACEMENT

307     80-85           3317            5A      67 c.c.
307     86              0142            7A      64
350     68-70           409-147         7       70
350     71-76           411-929         8       81
350     77-80           554-716         3A      75
403     77-79           554-717         4A      83
455     *               394-548         C       80
455     *               403-686         E       77
455     **              411-783         J       82

* - he says late 60's to early 70's, but we've had better info here
before from Chris W so I won't repeat misinformation...
** - he says mid-70s smog heads, probably true, but see above.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

More nearly correct information:

MODEL   YEAR            CASTING #       ID      DISPLACEMENT

307     80-85           3317            5A      67 c.c.
307     86              0142            7A      64
350     71              409-147         7       70
350     72              409-147         7a      70*^
350     71-76           411-929         8       81
350     77-80           554-716         3A      75
403     77-79           554-717         4A      83
455     67-69           394-548         C       80
455     1970 only       403-686         E       77*#
455     73-76           411-783         J       82

*^ Note: presumably the same chamber volume as the other 409147's. However, the
7a's [tiny subscript capital "A"] have hard xst seat inserts, Ii believe, soon
to know for sure...

*# Dunno where this figure came from- in my catalog it's the D's listed as much
smaller chamber. I will assert that all BB heads were 80cc +/- 1 or 2 cc. Any
less were factory or aftermarket [Demmer?] shaved for more compression. I have
in my possession a set of NOS E heads, will cc them soon.

For a list of other Big Block heads, consult the Guide... or wait for the FAQ.
Or email me...

Now, on the lifter thing, there seems to be some degree of confusion. In fact I
recently wrote Mr. Mondello, and called this to his atention, even providing a
simplified version of what block uses what lifters.
  Unless, as his info claims, but I doubt and have an engine to dismantle to
confirm if need be, Uh, where was I? Oh, UNLESS the 67 engines ALL had the
modern cam bank angle [not likely], it breaks down very simply. There were but
4 combinations:
1. Sx45   All early engines. 330, '65 B-400, D-425, EXCEPT...
2. Lx39   Select premium early engines: '66-67 Toro [only] D-425,
            '66-67 442 E-400
3. Sx39   All late engines, except...
4. Lx39-R Them pesky late-late [85-90] roller cam 307's

Note: in the above, "early" engines are defined as 1964-1967, except the 394, a
holdover from the prev. era. That'd be the 330, B-400, E-400, D-425, and
D-425-Toronado. OK?
  S= small lifters, aka 0.842" diameter, same as Pontiacs used...
  L= Large lifters, 0.921" diameter.  "-R" means ROLLER lifter for use with
roller cam....
  x45= 45 degree cam bank angle, ONLY early engines used this, & not ALL them.
  x39= "39 degree" c.b.a., ALL late & Primo early engines were blessed with
this feature. By far most common, easy to find cam to match.



- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 01:21:52 -0300
Subject: [none]

ift?

I know (thanks Chris W.) that Toro heads up to '71 or so were the big-valve
units; what about the camshaft, though? I'd imagine the priority was
smoothness, but Olds still rated their Toro 455 at 385 or 400 hp, compared to
the W30's 370hp or the H/O's 390hp. What were the specs (lift/duration) for
the Toro 455's? I'd like to know for my '69 385hp version specifically.

Also, I've got a cam that I had ground years ago by Chet Herbert (remember
his ads?), which has ~ .490/.512 lift. Immediately upon buying it for a 455
buildup, though, I became savvy about the .500" lift ceiling on the stock
bridge-strap rocker setup on Olds motors. Just recently, however, someone
mentioned using the JM20-22 cam, which has an exhaust lift of over .500".

So what is the *real* limit? is it exactly .500", or .520", or .535"? Or do
you have to measure each individually? Can you use shims to go over .500"?

If I can, I'd like to go with a looser torque converter and a freer exhaust
for my toro, plus a bit more cam with that Chet Herbert grind. Maybe with a
fresh-air setup, I could get 420hp? Does this sound "doable" on a Toro motor?
Or should I just add Splitfires and Mobil 1 synthetic? ;)

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 01:21:50 -0300
Subject: I've been bitten by the Toro bug- hard! 

Well, we are now one owner away from a full set of first-generation Toro-guys
on this list, because this afternoon I finally became "Bob the '69 Toro guy"!
(wait for applause to die down...now continue)

Make that Bob the GREEN Toro guy- I think this car's nickname will be Kermit
(already my wife has been saying "Which one?" when I say that I've got some
work to do on the Oldsmobile), since the interior, top and exterior are all
green. Surprisingly, it is not an objectionable green; kind of silver-green,
not Crayola green. Even my Father, who is as far from a car-guy or Oldsman as
you can get, said it was a "sharp" car. I actually *like* the styling of the
'69, with the wraparound chrome bumper and the sculpted sides from the '68,
but also the "tailfins" that the '69's shared with the '70's (which lost the
sculpted sides and the hideaway headlights).

The paint is excellent apart from some major chips, and a *very* bubbly
A-pillar on the passenger side. Has any other Toro owner had this problem?
How have you fixed it?

The motor is untouched (C-heads and all); boy, I've never seen an engine so
easy to work on! The plugs look like they would just *jump* out of that head!
(compared to the #2 and #8 plugs on my 455 Cutlass Supreme w/Air, where being
a contortionist helps) I haven't been able to get the car to my property, so
I haven't got it running yet; we'll see what that yields (it has been sitting
in a warehouse for five years). I've never seen such a squashed air cleaner,
though; I guess short of a shaker hood, there's no other way to put any kind
of induction system on that car.

It also has nice new dual tailpipes; was there a different hp rating for the
single and dual exhaust setups? Both were duals back to the mufflers, it
seems, so maybe not. It doesn't have a hose from the air cleaner to a scoop,
so I know it isn't a ram air motor. Does this mean I've *only* got the 385hp
motor? =8^)

One other thing; I didn't realize this car was so massive! I haven't seen one
of these in the flesh for about 15 years, so I was kind of stunned. Not just
the overall length of the car, either; the windows are big, the doors are
big, the hood is freakin' HUGE, the motor is big, the lug nuts are big, etc.
It is literally "built like a truck" (and weighs about the same, I'd
imagine).

The interior has a rip in the passenger-side of the front seat, but otherwise
looks showroom. It has a bench seat, which I *wanted* (why waste that flat
floor?), and automatic climate control. That may be more of a drawback; I
noticed some regulator under the hood with 4 vacuum lines going to it was
disconnected, and the electrical connection to it was jumpered. Does anyone
have a working auto climate control on their Toro?

Well, that's about it for now. I should be getting a hold of the car and
bringing it to my property by Thursday, at which time I'll check out the
mechanicals. Then I'm sure I'll have more questions for the Toromaniacs out
there in Oldsland.

BTW, I am looking for a hubcap for this car; large flat raised surface with
Oldsmobile written on it. 

Bob the '69 Toro Guy

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 02:48:17 -0300
Subject: Toro cam specs? + is .500" max lift for Olds cams? 

Sorry, my mailer screwed up the header on this one for some reason, so here
it is with a proper subject heading:

I know (thanks Chris W.) that Toro heads up to '71 or so were the big-valve
units; what about the camshaft, though? I'd imagine the priority was
smoothness, but Olds still rated their Toro 455 at 385 or 400 hp, compared to
the W30's 370hp or the H/O's 390hp. What were the specs (lift/duration) for
the Toro 455's? I'd like to know for my '69 385hp version specifically.

Also, I've got a cam that I had ground years ago by Chet Herbert (remember
his ads?), which has ~ .490/.512 lift. Immediately upon buying it for a 455
buildup, though, I became savvy about the .500" lift ceiling on the stock
bridge-strap rocker setup on Olds motors. Just recently, however, someone
mentioned using the JM20-22 cam, which has an exhaust lift of over .500".

So what is the *real* limit? is it exactly .500", or .520", or .535"? Or do
you have to measure each individually? Can you use shims to go over .500"?

If I can, I'd like to go with a looser torque converter and a freer exhaust
for my toro, plus a bit more cam with that Chet Herbert grind. Maybe with a
fresh-air setup, I could get 420hp? Does this sound "doable" on a Toro motor?
Or should I just add Splitfires and Mobil 1 synthetic? ;)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 05:23:11 -0300
Subject: Re: Wanted:  Gif or Jpg 

>
>Anyone have a gif or jpg of a 1984 Hurst Olds [silver]?
>
I think I have one in my home page (in the Olds archive, on the cover of the
Olds In Action pic.)  As memory serves, that was an '84 H/O, silver, wing,
no T-Tops.  I think I've got other similars in there, as well (more will go
in eventually, as I have been telling everyone (including myself) for about
four months now!

    
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 455
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 05:33:15 -0300
Subject: Re: E-Mail Quirks, Disgruntled Postal Employees? 

>     To all that may be trying to get mail to me, keep trying.  Our mail
>server is down, so I have no incoming mail whatsoever.  (I miss you guys,
>man! --I know, I'm not gettin' your Bud Light!)  Anyway, I don't know if my
>outgoing mail even works, but I'll try this anyway...  No one on our campus
>has recieved mail for three days now.  (ouch!)  Someday, I hope they'll have
>that fixed, so I can catch up on all the Toro flames, and maybe excerpts
>from a battle about how someones 98 is ten times (or more :} ) better that
>someone's 88, etc!  Maybe even see some technical stuff, too :)
>     Happy motoring, etc.  I'll have to just play with my cars, instead of
>reading stuff...

     Uh, scratch that, I'm back!  (finally)  Don't know what was wrong, but
they got me us working again.  (I think I even got all the "missing" mail
from before, too! __ All 214 of 'em!!!)

     On a lighter note, I got to enjoy springtime this afternoon.  (Needed
to "Do the Dew" to wash the taste of smoked horsemeat out of my mouth!)  Who
said Five Point Slows are worthless?  Gotta have something to roast!  :)
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 455
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: Mike Shokouhi <mvs@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 06:37:12 -0300
Subject: Re: 69 H/O wheels

BUY them, there worth a lot more!  But be sure they are 15", and 
there should be a part no. that starts with a 'J' on the wheel.

------------------------------

From: William Walden <wwalden@bdm.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:05:11 -0300
Subject: Who is interested -Reply 

I think it would be a great idea.  I am only interested in restoration, and the
volume of messages is really getting to be large.

Bill Walden
1986 Ciera ES
1966 F-85 Hardtop
Keep em rolling

------------------------------

From: Charles A Rogers <roger035@gold.tc.umn.edu>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:35:12 -0300
Subject: Delta 88

Im still looking for a 69 delta 88.  i need info about it and pictures if 
possible.  thanks

------------------------------

From: William Ansell <wansell@lynx.dac.neu.edu>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:21:52 -0300
Subject: Re: Wanted:  Gif or Jpg

If you find one could you let me know.. I am looking for one too.
- -Bill Ansell
wansell@lynx.dac.neu.edu> 
> 
> Anyone have a gif or jpg of a 1984 Hurst Olds [silver]?
> 
> 

------------------------------

From: "Bruce D. Brumm" <bdbrumm@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 13:41:20 -0300
Subject: Re: Wanted:  Gif or Jpg

William Ansell wrote:
> 
> If you find one could you let me know.. I am looking for one too.
> -Bill Ansell
> wansell@lynx.dac.neu.edu>
> >
> > Anyone have a gif or jpg of a 1984 Hurst Olds [silver]?
> >
> >If memory serves, there is a picture of one on Bryce's web page.
(http://www.cjnetworks.com/olds).
- -- 

Bruce D. Brumm (bdbrumm@ix.netcom.com)
Network & Systems Administrator
LDM Technologies, Inc.
Troy, MI

'84 Cutlass Supreme 307-Y
'86 Cutlass Salon 307-Y

------------------------------

From: Paul Elosge <elosge@eco.twg.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 12:31:31 -0300
Subject: Re: Tempest/Buick Special/Ch*v Corvair

Regarding the early 1960's GM compacts, the Olds F-85 and Buick Special
were very closely related, the Pontiac Tempest was fairly close to these
two, and the Corvair was really in a world of its own.

Other interesting features of the Tempest was the independent rear
suspension. As previously mentioned, the Tempest had a rope-drive.
I'm not sure if I'd use that term exactly, but apparently it had some
kind of flexible driveshaft. The tranmission was mounted in the back,
from what I understand. I don't know where the clutch or torque converter
were mounted. If you've ever ridden in one of these Tempests, you'd
notice it has a quite flat floor as a result of the independent rear
suspension, transaxle, and flexible driveshaft. Back in the dark ages,
I regularly got a ride to junior high in a neighbor's slant-four Tempest
(and their other car, a 409 Impala).

I'm very impressed with the amount of innovation American manufacturers
used in that era. Somewhere in the 1970's this was lost for a while,
probably because some of these advanced cars really had their problems,
and a preoccupation with pollution and gas mileage.

In some ways I would say the Toronado was at the tail end of this
innovative, risk-taking period, following the Corvair, the B-O-P compacts,
and the mid-60's Corvette.

- - Paul Elosge (elosge@eco.twg.com)

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:09:42 -0300
Subject: Re: Vacuum Diagram 

>I live in California and have a 1970 Cultass 350 with a 4-barrel carb and 
> am in need of some information on the vacuum diagrams for this car.

Just as a general answer (if someone faxes you the specific diagram, great),
I came across a Chilton special manual devoted completely to vacuum diagrams.
Maybe a friendly library could be persuaded to order a copy?

(Unfortunately the book I saw got pitched in a fit of stupidity by our
cleaning staff when a whole bunch of publishing samples got cleaned out...)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #148
********************************

