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oldsmobile-digest         Wednesday, 6 March 1996      Volume 01 : Number 111


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From: "Alex Holland" <hollanda@cia.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 23:30:33 -0400
Subject: Hydraulic roller cams

Wow, I left a note on this subject last week and did,nt get even one
reply, so I guess I'll ask again.  Have any of you guys out there had
any experience with roller cams in the olds 455.  I'm considering it,
but there is limited availability, the prices are high, and I want to
know what I can expect if I go this route.  Mondello sais that he
does,nt recommend it for a street motor, but mostly because its so
expensive for only a moderate gain.  He also said I would probably
notice the gains in the low to mid range the most.

I would be interested in hearing from any of you guys who have
dabbled with these cams.    .......72 olds cutlass.

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 00:28:24 -0400
Subject: Misc. Stuffs

> Hey -- does anybody have a (or know where one is)
> GIF/JPEG/Whatever of a 66/67 Toro?
> The 66 Toro and Mike
> Michael R. Frederick, CEO

Yeah, Toro #1 is soon to be under the RETOMuseum portion at Bryce's web page.
You're welcome. Also, a tiny 3 foot or so pre-production model of it.

> ****    Mondello recomends street head porting when using the 18-20 cam, I
...
> well it would work w/o porting of the heads.  Have your heads been ported?

Recommends, yes. Requires, no.

> then I can use the stock rockers.  What is a good price for #5 or 6 heads,
say > from a junkyard? > I would certainly pick up a Toronado oilpan, a
Mondello oilpump > (SP-775) and the R-100 Oil restrictor kit, these items will
be > relatively cheap but aiding in lots of longevity for your engine > **
This is my first rebuild, and I don't have these items in the budget,

Sometimes you get lucky, find a whole car for $100...
The oil restrictors are only about $15... buy them... buy them...

> Does anybody know which number head is a good core ?  I know for big block
> Olds the heads of choice are C's or E's, but I am not sure about small
> blocks.  I've called Mondello and Dick Miller, and I really didn't get a
good > answer.  I've heard number 5's flow pretty decent for stock and they
would be > a good core to start with (porting, etc.).  I am going to put the
heads on a > '77 403 that's in a '79 Cutlass.  (I am aware of the
modifications needed to > put 350 heads on a 403)  Anybody have any
suggestions??? >
Tom Millard Flow? How about chamber size? I repeat; GET a Mondello catalog. It
lists cc size for almost all heads. Then you can make informed caclulatons.
Basically, any pre-73 head oughta bring your CR up to about 9.5:1; exact
numbers are up to you to figure. Flow's prolly about the same for us regular
folks.

> My main concern is needing to shave
> >>the heads, and then needing adjustable pushrods or rockers.  I may or may
- --snip--
> >>use an eldebrock Performer intake, but Will be using a quadrajet.
> >Lots for discussion here...
>      Also, shaving the heads and/or block deck will change the angular
> relationship between the head and intake ports.  What you end up with is a
> leak on the inner most edge of the intake (Bottom of ports) for coolant and
> vacuum.  To ensure proper sealing, you would need to mill the intake as
> well, which is not a welcome idea after dishing out $165.00 for a new one.
> PLUS, if you ever shell out your motor, or switch cars, whatever, that
> intake will not be able to come with you.  It is destined to be stuck to
> that engine combo forever, unless you desire to spend more cash on the next
> motor as well.

Excuse me? Can someone please explain to me how shaving the bottom of an Olds
head can possibly affect the intake surface ANGLE, since they are
perpendicular [90 degrees apart]. Sure, it'll MOVE a little- very little- like
1/32" or 0.030", but the ANGLE sill not change. Sounds like a *hevy mechanic
to me! Git a rope, boys!
    Don't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out: here's a
rectangle... shave the bottom [by ANY amount, large or small]... how much does
the sides' angle change? NONE. Yes, it'll sit lower, by the amt. you shave
off... so what? It it were a LOT, like over 0.060", I'd be worried. But
remember that you can shave a good 20-30 thou just to get the head back to
where it was before you put that huge 0.045" gasket under it.... Draw it up,
folks...

> It seems to be fairly rust free, so whomever was looking for a 394, this
fella > has one.  Also has a 63 Ninety Eight Custom Coupe with the tach/floor
shift > still intact (as of last fall)  So there is another 394 (a Starfire
Engine to > boot, higher compression ,10.75 if I remember correctly)  I got
the rear bumpe

THAT's the engine to get, you 394-looker. Trust me. Get it.
- --Chris

> > >Would there be any *major* problems putting a 455
> > >into an '84 Hurst Olds [used to have a 307]?

Yeah. Lots or funny side-to-side motion of the rear of the car. Funny smelling
smoke. Kind of a screeching noise when you take off and hit the next gear. An
intimate relationship with the fuel vendors. Nothing you can't get over.

> I have a toronado question.  What kind of torque converter does the toro
> transaxle use?  Is it compatible with 350/400 converters?  Are there high
> performance units available if it is not?

It's a "425" trans; I'd assume that the TH400 converter would be compatible.

> Laurie.Cagnetta@yale.edu
> 1966 Oldsmobile Toronado:  One owner, documented, 27,000 miles (had
> company car since purchase), white with black interior.  Garage kept,
> storage
> for past 5 years.  Asking $8500.  Call Leo at 718-259-0972
> Sounds neat to me. Glenn

- --I concur, cheap, even, as you CANNOT replace or restore miles. Not really.
- --Chris

- --the 350 with #8 heads again :
> I just refigured my CR, I must have made a mistake the first time.  With the
# 8 > heads, it is 8.4.  With .05'' shaved from the #8 heads, it is 9.1.  With
#5 > heads, we get 9.7.  9.7 I think might be too high for unleaded gas,
anyone > know? Tony
 I'd be very interested to see that spreadsheet. I could not get anywhere near
8.5:1 from my numbers, even with HC pistons and a 0.060" shave on the #8
heads. Now, it's assembled, and the assembled-measure came out to about 8.2:1
at best. Please list your numbers for - -Total TDC volume - -Piston dish
volume - -deck clearance volume - -gasket volume - -head chamber volume I
think 9.7 would be a reasonable CRatio to shoot for. - --Chris

> I just got in a 68 Olds 98 with a 350 4bbl. Question is...are any
> parts off this engine worth swapping on to my 75 H/O with a W-25 350.
> Like heads, etc? For better performance? Thanks...
> Jason, 75 H/O W-25

Yeah, those #5 heads will bump your CR right on up. Or, the other guy withe
the #8 heads will buy them gladly!

> >From what I hear, Olds combustion chamber and piston design (round, open
> chamber, dished piston) works well to combat detonation and raise
> acceptable street compression ratio.  I am running close to 10:1 on
> Supreme 92 octane and it works fine.

Yay! Real world testimony!
- ---------------------------------------------------------
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 00:34:29 -0400
Subject: For sale stuffs

Garage cleaning time:

Big valve G head, one only, surfaced, clean, bare, might get me to thro in
serviceable valves, $0ffer.

66 Toro radio- one AM, one AM/FM/Wonderbar. $Offer, $20/120??

Early pattern flywheel, make your 330/400/425/Mondello engine a MT engine! $50
for the dirty one, $60 for the surfaced one.

Nodular iron 455 crank, next best thing to forged. Will need a grind. $offer.
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 00:39:56 -0400
Subject: Help on parts #'s

OK, all you car folks. I need the casting ID for the following items:

- -Intake #405233, 69 H/O only, what is the casting LETTER, usually up there
in the valley between the front water passage & the fuel/air runner, could be
over by the 6-digit casting number; who knows?

- -Intake #406115, '70 W30, "W-455"; again, what's the casting LETTER?

- -Intake #410448, 72 455 4V MT; same query- what's the Casting LETTER?

Thank to you rare-bird owners who might take the time to investigate this
trivia... maybe a thank-you you would not expect...

- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 05:02:00 -0400
Subject: Re: 455 -> '84 H/O

>>Word is the A6 radial compressor is better than the newer, smaller ones.
>>Not sure why, but they are supposed to be more durable.
>
>Actually the A6 is an axial compressor (driven by a swash plate inside,
>I think), whereas the newer, smaller R-4 is the radial design, and yes,
>the R-4 gets trashed a lot more than the A6. If you buy a car with a
>bad R-4 on it, budget for having to buy a new one just in case, whereas
>you can risk buying a used replacement A6 from a junkyard. Been there,
>done that.

     The A6 is a lot more bulky and heavy, which is better to do without, in
my mind, anyway.  Makes plugs more pleasant to get to, too.  :)
                   |
           ________|________
          {        |        } Charley Buehner
          {        |        } "Rockit 1"
          {        |        } buehner@cis.nmclites.edu
          {        |        } http://www.nmclites.edu/~buehner
          {        |        }
          {        |        }
          {        |        }
          {        |        }
          {       /|\       }   "There's no replacement
          {     /  |  \     }        for displacement..."
          {   /    |    \   }
          { /      |      \ }
          {       ]|[       }
          {       ]|[       }
          {       ]^[       }
          {       ]^[       }
          """"""""]^[""""""""
                   ^
                   ^

------------------------------

From: david.chontofalsky@mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:21:15 -0400
Subject: Re[2]: Towing & History Center...was Re: A hearbreaking mome

>
 Hmmm.  Seems you're right.  The Dynamic 88 had the most body
styles available, and they list a 2 Door Sedan, a Celebrity Sedan (4
door?) a Holiday Scenicoup (2 door hardtop), a Holiday Sportsedan (Cary
suggested a 4 door hardtop, and that would seem to be what it is), a
Convertable Coup, and 2 Fiestas (two or three seat wagons).

 In the 98, there is the Celebrity Sedan, the Holiay Scenicoup,
the Sportsedan, and the convertable coup.  Boy, they had some pretty cool
names for that stuff back then!

 It's also interesting to note that on the Super 88 and Dynamic 88
the most expensive models were the wagons.  It's just kind of ironic
since a nice convertable will fetch a whole lot more than the wagon ever
will.

  Scott
 1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98

It seems like not long ago and I remember this quite well.  When the cars were
sold new, The Station Wagons and Convertibles were usually the most expensive
cars to purchase new,  and the 2 door hardtops (no window frames on doors)
were among the cheaper ones to buy, (the 2 and 4 door sedans were the
cheapest)  But, when it came to trade in time or time to resell the seller
took the worst loss on the Convertible and wagon models.  Probably for reasons
of condition of the top and interior.  I have been guilty of leaving the top
down for days (probably weeks) at a time on a 1970 cutlass, and a 1985
Cavalier conv. I owned, talk abou t sun damage!!!  And the wagons, well you
had a limited market for a wagon, Wagons were traditionally workhorses and
were most likely beat up and used hard so there went your resale.

------------------------------

From: david.chontofalsky@mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:27:07 -0400
Subject: Re: '73 Olds Speedometer...

I think they both went to 120.
david

Does anybody know if there is a 'mph' difference between the speedometers
that came with the factory gauges vs. the dummy lights?

                                                 Thanks for your help,
                                                 Tom Millard, OLDSPWR

------------------------------

From: Sandy Stewart <WASTEWART@gov.pe.ca>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:58:40 -0400
Subject: Re[2]: '73 442 Olds Parts... -Reply

>>> <david.chontofalsky@mcmail.vanderbilt.edu> 03/05/96 03:59pm >>>
>I also have the speedometer and factory gauges along with the
woodgrain dash
>pieces.  Anybody interested...
>
>By the way, there are really no other parts salvagable from the car.  I
am
>from PA and the salt has really taken a severe beating on it.

Back when I had a '76 with factory gauges, someone mentioned to me
that the little top-of-the-dash "FASTEN SEAT BELTS" light was very
sought after, since it only went on Cutlass with factory gauges. Dunno
for sure
(the same lamp housing was used on wagons, I think, for "TAILGATE
AJAR"), but you might want to salvage yours for the future if you've got
one.
XXXXXXXXXXTHE ABOVE IS TRUE EVEN AS FAR AS BACK AS 1974,
and possible
1973XXXXXXX
- -
Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473


The "FASTEN YOUR SEAT BELTS" dash pad light first appeared on the
72 Cutlass  and 442 with the rally pak option.

Sandy Stewart

------------------------------

From: proietto@dow.on.doe.ca (Proietto, F.)
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 10:08:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Small Block Camshaft

>
>I just refigured my CR, I must have made a mistake the first time.  With the
#8 >heads, it is 8.4.  With .05'' shaved from the #8 heads, it is 9.1.  With
#5 >heads, we get 9.7.  9.7 I think might be too high for unleaded gas, anyone
>know? > >Tony > >


Tony,
        I use #5 heads with TRW forged 9.5:1 CR pistons. I only use SUNOCO's
ULTRA 94 Octance gas and I have never heard my engine ping once. My timing
is realitively high, ~13-14 degrees compared to the stock 8-10 degrees. I
can't see why your engine would ping with the #5. Of course I havn't shaved
the heads, there stock. One thing, can you tell if the #5 have larger valves
than the #7. I have two sets of '72 #7 heads by the way.

Regards
Fernando Proietto

------------------------------

From: proietto@dow.on.doe.ca (Proietto, F.)
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 10:12:54 -0400
Subject: SOME HEAD INFO PLEASE

Ok guys/gals I know we've had this discussion before so a breif blurp would
suffice for a response.

There's a '71 455 engine I'm currently looking at and the engine sports J
heads. A little info on J's would be appreciated. If I buy this engine am I
going to have to change the heads in order to get better performance or can
the J's be worked with little effort and $$. Or should I just forget the J's
and try and pick up a pair of G's or E's.





Regards
Fernando Proietto

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 12:15:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Valve lift on my 403; and standards for shop man. specs.

This won't solve the problem, but the chassis manual show four different
camshafts for Olds sb's, differentiated by cutouts on the dowel pin end.

If I had a degree wheel, I'd check mine.  I doubt it's worn much -
regimented oil level checks and changes, plugs all normal, no noise,
doesn't miss, doesn't shake, good power and acceleration, decent mileage.

Hey "johnspr@ix.netcom.com", and anyone else, do you have any 403 cam specs in
 any of your magazines or books?

David Brown
dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu    (312) 702-9157
"Oldsmobile - powerful roadsters with big V8s"

- -------------------------
Does anyone know the valve lift from the stock cam on a '78 403?  Where would
that information be available?

I just got the shop manual for this car, and thought it would be in there,
but not for the Olds motors.

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 04:17:54 -0400
Subject: Re: 83-84 H/O fuel pump

     Well, first off you can forget the one for the VIN 9 engine.  That's a
     completely different animal.  As to why the Hurst has a different fuel
     pump, I have two guesses:  1. It uses more fuel (a lot more)  2. Since
     the RPM range this engine spends most of it's life in is higher than a
     normal engine (due to 3.73 gears & high-stall converter) then possibly
     the pump could be designed to deliver a different volume or pressure
     curve as RPM's increase.  The pump looks the same as any others on the
     outside.  I'd use the Hurst one, unless the price is absolutely
     outrageous.  If the price is way high, I'd just go buy a nice electric
     fuel pump and pressure regulator unless you require "stock".

     I'm not sure, but I think open loop vs. closed loop would refer to the
     computer controls.  Open loop just pumps all the time and the carb
     uses it as needed.  In closed loop the computer would take over the
     fuel delivery, but I don't know how.  Possibly with a pressure
     regulator?

     I'd also recommend the different harmonic balancer if you've got all
     the other HO stuff on it.  It may not be absolutely necessary, but I
     don't think I'd sleep very easy not having it.  Who was it here that
     taught us all by "learning the hard way" with his big block and
     harmonic balancers?  Sorry, can't remember. . .

     Tom L.  (lots of Toms here lately. . .)


______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________ Subject: 83-84 H/O fuel pump Author:
oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET Date:    3/5/96 5:47 PM


     I just went to the local parts store buying the new parts for the 307
that will be done soon.   Went in thinking that every 307 had the same fuel
pump but actually the computer gave me three options.  They are listed below:
1.  AC Delco Mech. fuel pump with out Hurst option; VIN Y; open loop
2.  AC Delco Mech. fuel pump with Hurst option; VIN Y; open loop
3.  AC Delco Mech. fuel pump; VIN 9; closed loop

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 13:35:51 -0400
Subject: Head for sale

More stuffs available:

E head, one only, cleaned, 'fluxed, surfaced. Bare. $0ffer

#5 heads- one stock, with valves & springs. Other one bare, fully ported, cut
for guide plates, drilled for 7/16" rocker studs, fitted with hard exhaust
seats, etc. They came separately... $0ffer $20/$50 ??

69 98 AM/FM/Wonderbar radio. Has no knobs. $50

Degreed Harmonic Balancer $40
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: urbanch@magi.com (Chris Urban)
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 13:52:24 -0400
Subject: Re: SOME HEAD INFO PLEASE

The difference between stock heads is marginal as far as horsepower is
concerned. You would not feel any difference(seat of the pants) thats for
sure.

>
>Ok guys/gals I know we've had this discussion before so a breif blurp would
>suffice for a response.
>
>There's a '71 455 engine I'm currently looking at and the engine sports J
>heads. A little info on J's would be appreciated. If I buy this engine am I
>going to have to change the heads in order to get better performance or can
>the J's be worked with little effort and $$. Or should I just forget the J's
>and try and pick up a pair of G's or E's.
>
>
>
>
>
>Regards
>Fernando Proietto
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: urbanch@magi.com (Chris Urban)
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 13:54:56 -0400
Subject: Re:Oil Pans

My recent posting for Tornado pans flooded me with reponses for them, so
much so that they are all spoken for. I do have 1 chrome stock volume oil
pan left if anyone is interested. It is brand new. Best Offer.

------------------------------

From: gludlam@bcinet.net (Gregg Ludlam)
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 14:02:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Fixin' the Delta

>OK, here's the thing when I tried to fix it: I'm assuming the horn is
>this disc-shaped thing with a trumpet coming out of it, mounted in front
>of the radiator, behind the grille.  It's got a wire which is going into
>the big bunch of wires that splits out to the headlights, etc., and then
>another lead which I can't figure out where it's supposed to be
>connected to.  I assume it's ground, but I'm not certain.
>
>Ben

The horn's case grounds itself to the core support or whatever it's bolted
to.  The other lead could've been to another horn as in a Caddy trumpet horn
setup.  Another tip with bum horns - try wacking it with a rubber mallet.
Sometimes the diaphram inside sticks, causing loss of hornal quality!


- -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy

------------------------------

From: eda@dl.tc.faa.gov
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 14:05:50 -0400
Subject: misc

Re: 84 H/O wipers:
Tom, I replaced mine with new blades and holders; don't remember the brand but
they have kind of a double rail type design, like those Euro or double wipers
but more subtle.  They look great and work great, got em at the local Pep
Boys, not too expensive.  I'd agree that parking is probably a matter of
adjusting the linkage.

Re: Fuel Pumps
I don't know the difference between the pumps, I always thought Y engines were
H/O only, too.

Re: 80's Toronado's
Anyone out there driving an 198-something V8 Toronado?  I'm thinking about
getting one, and I'm looking for general info - years of production, engines
used, known problems, performance, etc.  I'm looking only at the V8's, I know
they made them from at least '82-'85, but I don't know about before or after
that.  Think most were 307's, but that and what they look like is *all* I
know.  And that they're FWD, of course.

Ed Atlee			'77 Cutlass Supreme
eda@dl.tc.faa.gov		'84 Hurst/Olds
	R O C K E T	P O W E R E D ! !

------------------------------

From: edison3@cpeq.com (Mike Frederick)
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 14:34:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Fixin' the Delta

>>OK, here's the thing when I tried to fix it: I'm assuming the horn is
>>this disc-shaped thing with a trumpet coming out of it, mounted in front
>>of the radiator, behind the grille.  It's got a wire which is going into
>>the big bunch of wires that splits out to the headlights, etc., and then
>>another lead which I can't figure out where it's supposed to be
>>connected to.  I assume it's ground, but I'm not certain.
>>
>>Ben
>
>The horn's case grounds itself to the core support or whatever it's bolted
>to.  The other lead could've been to another horn as in a Caddy trumpet horn
>setup.  Another tip with bum horns - try wacking it with a rubber mallet.
>Sometimes the diaphram inside sticks, causing loss of hornal quality!
>
>
>-Gregg, the '67 Toro guy
>
>
>
>
Hornal quality?????



Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Inc.
Tampa, Florida
813.210.8649

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 15:01:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Fixin' the Delta

>>Sometimes the diaphram inside sticks, causing loss of hornal quality!

>Hornal quality?????

"Trumpetic hornosity", according to the service manual...
- --
Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Shawn M. Twomey" <stwom@ctp.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 15:19:15 -0400
Subject: Stuff

>I just refigured my CR, I must have made a mistake the first time.  With the
#8 >heads, it is 8.4.  With .05'' shaved from the #8 heads, it is 9.1.  With
#5 >heads, we get 9.7.  9.7 I think might be too high for unleaded gas, anyone
>know?

You should be all right with 9.7.  Newer Corvette's run upwards of 10.4:1.
Of course that's with FI tuning and other assorted technological marvels,
but couldn't you just adjust the knock out with timing if you experienced any?

>     I just went to the local parts store buying the new parts for the 307
>that will be done soon.   Went in thinking that every 307 had the same fuel
>pump but actually the computer gave me three options.  They are listed below:
>1.  AC Delco Mech. fuel pump with out Hurst option; VIN Y; open loop
>2.  AC Delco Mech. fuel pump with Hurst option; VIN Y; open loop
>3.  AC Delco Mech. fuel pump; VIN 9; closed loop
>     What I'm asking is did the H/O in fact come with a different fuel pump
>than a regular 307, and what was the purpose of it (came with same Q-jet)?
>What does it mean by open loop or closed and which do I want for a high
>perfromance application?  Also maybe you could help me out with the VIN
>codes, I thought if you had a Y you had the H.O. 307.

That's news to me.  With the '85s (I'd assumed with the older cars as well),
VIN 'Y' was a standard 307, VIN '9' was the high-output 307.  What is it on
your H/O? (I believe its the 8th or 9th digit, if memory serves).

I need some help:  I just committed to buying a '69 W31 (non-442) that's all
apart but has all the original driveline (including the 4-speed).  First
question, what rear-end gears did these cars come with, and how likely were
they to have Posi (all had it, most had it, etc.), and how can I tell?
Second, I'd like to swap this rear-end into my '85 442.  Is it possible, and
if so, what kind of mods are necessary?  Thanks in advance.

__________________________________________________________________________
Shawn M. Twomey     |  "No!  Try NOT!  Do, or do not.  There is no try."
stwom@ctp.com       |  -Yoda
__________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 15:45:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Fixin' the Delta

At 02:02 PM 3/6/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>OK, here's the thing when I tried to fix it: I'm assuming the horn is
>>this disc-shaped thing with a trumpet coming out of it, mounted in front
>>of the radiator, behind the grille.  It's got a wire which is going into
>>the big bunch of wires that splits out to the headlights, etc., and then
>>another lead which I can't figure out where it's supposed to be
>>connected to.  I assume it's ground, but I'm not certain.
>>
>>Ben
>
>The horn's case grounds itself to the core support or whatever it's bolted
>to.  The other lead could've been to another horn as in a Caddy trumpet horn
>setup.  Another tip with bum horns - try wacking it with a rubber mallet.
>Sometimes the diaphram inside sticks, causing loss of hornal quality!
>
>-Gregg, the '67 Toro guy


I've had to repair the horns on both of my Olds's ('64 Jetstar and '75 Delta).
With the Jetstar, the problem was corroded contacts at the horn relay.  I
pulled the connector off and sanded shiny all metal contacts.  Gregg is
correct that the single wire leading to the horns is 12V, and the connection
is completed by a good ground contact through the horn itself to whatever it
is bolted to.  So a good ground is also something to make sure of.

With my Delta 88, the horns themselves were no good anymore.  I went to the
junkyard and pulled a horn off of another Olds and paid about $3 for it.

Actually, there's normally two horns, one a high pitch, and the other low.
You can buy replacements at the local auto parts store for about $8 each, so
it's not like it's a major expense to replace them.  But make sure that the
problem really is the horn itself and not a bad ground, relay, or connection
somewhere in between.


************************************************
Daniel A. Gulino
Associate Professor and Graduate Chairman
Department of Chemical Engineering
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio  45701-2979
(614) 593-1495
(614) 593-0873 (fax)
gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu
http://www.ent.ohiou.edu/che/faculty/gulino.html
(or just open the window and shout!)
************************************************

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 16:13:49 -0400
Subject: 350, 403 CRatio #'s

Here's the numbers I got from assembling a 350 with #8 heads:

1970 HC pistons with dish 2.85"x0.150" or so
   [14-15cc dish]
Assume 0.015" deck clearance
   [3.2cc]
Gasket 4.250x.045"
   [10.5cc]
Total of 29.3cc so far, using better #'s from the actual s'sheet.

Stock head chamber of 79cc; Total TDC volume= 108.3cc
Piston displacement= 717.1cc

CRatio= (717+108)/108 == (717/108) + 1 = 7.62

Shave 0.060" off the head, assuming 0.005"/cc, and the CRatio comes out to
8.45, still quite low.

Actual measurement of the TDC volume of the assembled engine, AFTER SHAVING
THE HEADS 0.060" which yielded about 72cc chambers, came out to about 101cc,
for a CRatio of about 8.1... Actual deck clearance ranged from 0.012 to 0.030"
as measured with a depth micrometer during assembly.

FWIW: That catalog lists the following SB head cc's
3-4     60cc
5-6-7   64
8       79
10      57
3A      75
4A      83
5A      67
7A      64

Just for kicks, let's look at putting each of these on a 403. Never mind port
size differences for now, we'll just examine how compression ratio will be
affected. Define:

Compression Ratio == Max volume / Min. volume
  == Volume at BDC / Volume at TDC
  == [PSV + TDCV] / TDCV
  == [PSV/TDCV] + 1.0

    Where we'll use the abbreviations
PSV== Piston Swept Volume
  [Pi/4 * Bore^2 * Stroke]
TDCV= [total] Top Dead Center Volume, defined as:
  [DV + DCV + GV + HV]

DV == Dish volume; space in the piston's dish
  [measured with cc plate or calc'd from dish measurements]
DCV== Deck Clearance Volume; between piston top and block top
  [Pi/4 * Bore^2 * measured (or assumed) deck clearance]
GV == Gasket Volume; space in the gasket's hole
  [Pi/4 * gasket hole diameter^2 * gasket compressed thickness]
  [most gaskets nowadays run right around 0.040-0.045" thick]
HV == Head Volume; space in the head itself.
  [measured with cc plate or use known figures]

Of these, we 'know' that [actually, we take someone else's word that...]
PSV=824.8cc, and the 4A heads have 83cc. If we assume the DV, DCV, and GV do
not change during the head swap, then we can figure the new CR as follows:

Assuming the published figure of a compression ratio of 8.1 for the 403 is
totally correct and accurate (as if!), we have:
   8.1 = PSV/TDCV + 1
   7.1 = PSV/TDCV
   TDCV = PSV/7.1 = 824.8/7.1 = 116.2cc
   116.2cc = 83cc + DV+DCV+GV
   DV+DCV+GV = 116.2-83 = 33.2cc

Now, we can combine the new head's volume with the other volumes comprising
TDCV, and calculate the following CRatios:
CR      Head cc    Head ID
8.10    83         4A; stock 403 head
8.35    79         #8; 73-76 350
8.63    75         3A; late 350? heads
9.23    67         5A; late 350? heads
9.49    64         5, 7, 7a, 7A
9.85    60         3, 4; 330 heads, watch for pushrod clrnce.
10.15   57         10; stock 260 heads.

Of these, your best bet is probably the larger-port and unleaded compatible
1971-2 #7 or 7a [tiny subscript A] heads. Talk about bang for yer buck! $200
for a valve job & gaskets to go from 8,1:1 to 9.5:1 compression!


- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 16:42:38 -0400
Subject: Last of the RWD Delta 88s

I've got it in my head that I'd like to pick up an 80 to 85 vintage Delta
88 or 98 Regency 2-door (if they made such a beast) as a driver. I always
liked these cars, especially in the 2-door version, but they are getting
rare these days. I have a few questions:

1. Any significant differences from 80 to 85 model years? Any ones to
avoid? I assume somewhere in there a computer entered the picture, anyone
know what year?

2. Am I correct in assuming the only V-8 these would have come with
(aside from a Diesel which is not under consideration here) is a 307?

3. Any known problem areas or things to look closely at in checking out a
used example?

I have started to make some discreet inquiries into finding one of these.
There is an '85 2-door with 70K miles advertised here now at $3650 which
seems high. No idea of condition, perhaps if it's mint it might be worth
it. Keep in mind these are Canadian dollars we're using here.

Any advice?

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Doug <mcclan@wsdot.wa.gov>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 17:06:41 -0400
Subject: (no subject)

We here in Washington State are entering into the rainy season.  The sky
is grey, the ground is wet and all outdoor activities must endure the
seasonal facts that I just mentioned.  This being the case I chose to
stay indoors - but I became bored - and took my newly purchased 1967 Olds
CS apart.  All that is left intact resides behind the fire wall.  Every
single part of the car from the fire-wall forward is in pieces except the
block.  What fun.

Well, while it's all apart I'm going to go on a parts replacement
rampage.  I will also strip the paint and the little bit of rust off all
the non replaced parts.  More fun.

I have heard that draino is used to clean parts of their rust and paint.
Does anyone know if this is a good method of cleaning brackets and such?
Is there a better way?  Do any rental companies rent portable sand
blasters?

Now for the fun stuff.  The parts replacement.  I want you people to
spend my money for me (on MY car no doubt).

First off is the suspension.

I'm thinking of replacing all of those pesky little moving parts on the
front end.  I have heard that poly-urethane bushings tend to squeak.  Is
this true?  Do they really help the feel or handling?  Who has the best
deal on these parts if I order them as a complete front and/or rear end
kit (I'm thinking center link, ball joints, idler arm, bla bla bla bla
bla?) Fusik?, The Olds performance place in Oregon?

Should I have the stock springs redone or is it just better off to spend
the $90-100 apiece for new ones.  If I ordered the springs for a 442 will
they fit? Who has the best tuned pair (for the price) anti-sway bars?
Anyone ever replaced 'em before?  What diameter should I be lookin' for
if all I want to do is just spirited driving (I'm not expecting it to
handle like a new 911)?  How about shocks?  I've heard that koni has
great shocks and some are adjustable.  You can get gas shocks for $20
apiece or spend $60 apiece.  What do you look for in a good gas shock
anyway?

Talk to me about the body mounting bushings and kits.  Easy to install?
Is rubber a good choice?

What specific A-body cars have the power steering box with 2.6:1 ratios?
What other A-bodies have something close (3:1)?  My box has two different
size hoses from the pump to the box (at least I had to use two wrenches
of different sizes to take off the hoses)

I have the stock drum brakes in front.  What size tires have you people
put on your CSs that fit.  I'm looking at 16 inch aluminum rims (come on
now, don't make me justify them it's not that big of a deal, they come
right off with five little lug nuts) with medium to low profile tires.
If anyone will admit to doing the same, what was the biggest size tire
you fit on this car (if I know the largest size tire that will fit, I can
work back to what I think looks best for me)  Anyone know what the offset
is that I have to match?  Who makes good wheel bearings?  What kind of
brake pads can I get to make the braking at least safe?  Semi metallic
this that or the other, who makes them?  I will get some disc brakes for
it later but for now I will stick with the drums.  By the way, which
models of the A-bodies came with the disc brake setup that will bolt on
to my 67 CS with no change in geometry?

Next is the engine.

It is just sitting there - right in front of me with its ultra high
compression 330 cid, 92,000 miles (and 29 years) and no fenders or any
thing in my way.  I did the compression test (dry-cold) before I pulled
the car apart and all cylinders were between 140 and 150.  The vacuum
gauge was steady through-out.  After I have driven the car for a while
and then parked it for about a half an hour I get a little puff of blue
when I  start it up again.  (valve guides?  seals?  both?)  I want to run
the unleaded premium that is in the local pump.  I think that this is as
good a time as ever to take the heads off and put in hardened valve seats
and get some new valves.  What kind of valves should I get for just a
little faster than average driving?  Any special kind of metal?  Does it
make a big difference to get a 3 angle grind for the valves?  Do the
seats have to match?  Is it a good idea to replace the valve springs or
are they good for a long while if they pass their test at the rebuild
shop?  How about the guides? Can these be replaced or just knurled (sp?)
By the way, what does knurling the guides do anyway?  Does this fall
under the category of "Mickey mousing" it?  Does it make sense to "cc"
the heads or am I getting out of hand in rebuilding this car for the
purpose of having a "just a little faster than the average" daily driver
1967 CS?  What else should I have done do the heads?  I guess you will
want to know what heads I have.  Well, I don't have the numbers with me.
Sorry.  I do remember that they start with a W.

The Block

I have only an idiot light (does this seem fitting for me? Yuck yuck) for
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the oil pressure so I have no idea what kind of oil pressure I have in
this engine.  I should have checked it prior to taking the car apart -
rookie move - wasn't the first and will not be the last.  Anyway, for a
mild rebuild, there must be a company that you people like and would
recommend to me so that I can order the parts for the block.  Is it going
to far to balance the crank?  If it isn't, who do you recommend that I
have do the work?  I understand that this process needs to be done with
the proper equipment (bob weights, etc.) or it is a waste of time.

How about the cam.  I have been reading your discussions on 16-18 and
18-20 cams.  What does this mean?  What is so critical about overlap,
lift and duration?  I don't think that I will be getting such a wild cam
that I will be in need of roller rockers or anything like that but if I
do change the cam to something a little more potent, will I have to worry
about loud lifters?  What are adjustable lifters anyway?  I thought that
all hydraulic lifters adjusted themselves (rookie again) help me out
here.

How about pistons?  Since I want to run pump premium, what kind of
compression should I be shooting for?  Are there any changes that I
should be making to the head to minimize pre-ignition?  Should I select
piston shape to reduce my 10.25:1 compression or should I select piston
shape to reduce hot spots or whatever which might reduce pre-ignition?
Both?

How about that MSD 6a?  I can order the adjustable timing attachment with
this 6a.  Would this allow me to keep the compression stock by allowing
me to back off the timing a little when I start to hear the engine ping?
Am I Mickey mousing it here?  Has anyone tried this setup?  What are some
good plugs (Platinum)?  Plug wires (what makes a good set of wires)?  Cap
(copper guts)?  coil?  I don't want to spend the money on the MSD if the
rest of the system isn't up to par!  How about the timing chain?  I just
paid about $25 for a chain and gears.  Sure it's new but how long will it
last?  Are there any "high quality? timing chains that you would
recommend?  Remember it's my money - spend it (if it will make a
difference)!

This (among the previous) might make you laugh but my smog pump went out
and I actually want to replace it!  Where do I find one or can/should I
repair it?  I want to go to dual exhaust also.  Should I just cap the
passenger side manifold (sp?) or be lookin' in a bone yard for a dual
exhaust unit?  Anyone ever purchased pipes and mufflers as a set from any
of the aftermarket places?  What are your recommendations as far a
manufacturer, pipe diameter, muffler, etc.?  Did the '67 CS's with dual
exhaust have straight exhaust pipes or were they bent down at the rear of
the car?

Wwwwweeeellllll  nooowwwwwwwww.  Enough questions!

I have something to offer you!

My Dad got a little bored over in Wenatchee Washington and took his 1978
Olds 98 and replaced the engine with a cadilac 510.  He wanted to tow a
boat with his Olds but only had a spare cad sitting around.  Anyway, it
runs great, has a class III tow hitch and is ready to go.

He just had a truck given to him so he doesn't need it any more.  He only
towed the boat (23 footer) a few times.  Car is nice in and out.  let me
know if you are interested

Thanks for reading this and thanks for any input.  A man has to have a
project ya' know!


Doug McClanahan
mcclan@wsdot.wa.gov

------------------------------

From: urbanch@magi.com (Chris Urban)
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 17:11:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Stuff

This is a pretty rare car to be parting out, are you sure its junk?


>I need some help:  I just committed to buying a '69 W31 (non-442) that's all
>apart but has all the original driveline (including the 4-speed).  First
>question, what rear-end gears did these cars come with, and how likely were
>they to have Posi (all had it, most had it, etc.), and how can I tell?
>Second, I'd like to swap this rear-end into my '85 442.  Is it possible, and
>if so, what kind of mods are necessary?  Thanks in advance.
>
>__________________________________________________________________________
>Shawn M. Twomey     |  "No!  Try NOT!  Do, or do not.  There is no try."
>stwom@ctp.com       |  -Yoda
>__________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: david.chontofalsky@mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 17:12:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Last of the RWD Delta 88s

I've got it in my head that I'd like to pick up an 80 to 85 vintage Delta
88 or 98 Regency 2-door (if they made such a beast) as a driver. I always
liked these cars, especially in the 2-door version, but they are getting
rare these days. I have a few questions:
***WHAT ABOUT A 1980 DELTA HOLIDAY 88 (they were made 78-80 and came with a
Calais style bucket seat floorshif console and were kind of interesting also
the 1977 Indy Pace  silver and Black was sharp maybe one to consider****

1. Any significant differences from 80 to 85 model years? Any ones to
avoid? I assume somewhere in there a computer entered the picture, anyone
know what year?
Late 1980 model carscame with CCC

2. Am I correct in assuming the only V-8 these would have come with
(aside from a Diesel which is not under consideration here) is a 307?
***Nope, There was a 260 and 350 available up till 1980
403 final year was 79***

3. Any known problem areas or things to look closely at in checking out a
used example?
Early CCC cars were a nightmare.  Our dealership had to buy 2 back that no one
could seem to fix.
We gave them an equally equipped 81 for the difference in cost price.

I have started to make some discreet inquiries into finding one of these.
There is an '85 2-door with 70K miles advertised here now at $3650 which
seems high. No idea of condition, perhaps if it's mint it might be worth
it. Keep in mind these are Canadian dollars we're using here.
My room mates parents have a beautiful Black Royale Brougham garage kept.
700R4 Transmissions were kind of weak and expensive to rebuild.

Any advice? *** If it were me, I'd look for a 1980 Holiday 88 350 non CCC car.
 Less headaches in the long run.  (this car should also have a 350 THM.)
Good luck!!!   David.Chontofalsky@MCMAIL.Vanderbilt.edu***

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: edison3@cpeq.com (Mike Frederick)
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 17:31:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Rebuilding the 66

Budget? ...BUDGET? ...Who said anything about budget?

Nice to know y'all worried abount my wallet but if that was
the issue, I'd sell the gas-monster and get a Honda!

The Paxton supercharger idea sounds cool, though.
Any ideas on where I should mount the camera to get good
shots of the rice-burner faces?  (rear window I imagine)

Chris:  Bryce does have a small image -- hope a better
one comes along.  It'll help me to figure out where the
FLAMES would look best.  What's this about a pre-
production model???

I'll be in touch with those that replied.  I've been having some
difficulty with the Email software so I'm a little behind.  God,
I hate Windows!

Keep those cards and letter coming,

The 66 Toro and Mike



Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Inc.
Tampa, Florida
813.210.8649

------------------------------

From: "Dink" <heinle@jake.udayton.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 17:42:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Last of the RWD Delta 88s

> I always  liked these cars, especially in the 2-door version, but they are
getting > rare these days. I have a few questions: 2 doors are cool :)

> 1. Any significant differences from 80 to 85 model years? Any ones to
> avoid? I assume somewhere in there a computer entered the picture, anyone
> know what year?
don't know if there are any to avoid, but I do know that 80 was the
last year for 350 gas motor, after that was 307's and 350 diesels.
Also 81 introduced the 4 speed auto, over the th-250 3 speed in the
80's.  I also think 81 introduced the computer to the whole mess.
If I was you I would look for a 80 with a 350, the 307 doesn't do
these land yachts  justice.

> 2. Am I correct in assuming the only V-8 these would have come with
> (aside from a Diesel which is not under consideration here) is a 307?
350 in 80.

> 3. Any known problem areas or things to look closely at in checking out a
> used example?
umm, no real problems that I noticed, just normal old car usage i
think.  When I got mine I had to replace the gas tank, brakes, and
tires.  Also the weather stripping is going away on the doors.  And
that reminds me, check the doors for rust, on the top and bottom.
Mine have excessive rust that is not fixable, I will have to replace
the doors.

>I have started to make some discreet inquiries into finding one of these.
> There is an '85 2-door with 70K miles advertised here now at $3650 which
> seems high. No idea of condition, perhaps if it's mint it might be worth
> it. Keep in mind these are Canadian dollars we're using here.

for an 85 2 door ls 88 brougham = wholesale 1700 retail 3000 that's in
US dollars.

There are 3 in the paper for $2250 by me.  88 Royale Brougham LS



Dink
80 Delta 88 Royale 307

{
Dink           Dayton, Ohio
http://homepages.udayton.edu/students/heinle/
Computer Information Systems Major @ UD
}

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 17:44:37 -0400
Subject: Toronado Xperts: Seen any XSR's?

In "The Complete History of General Motors, 1908-1986", there is a picture of
a 1977 Toronado XSR; what is unusual about this model is the *huge*
wraparound rear window, like the 1950's Studebaker.

Has anyone ever seen this model Toronado? Was this rear-window only available
on this model, and in 1977, or was this model offered in other years or on
other models?

------------------------------

From: SMR908NJ@aol.com
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 17:55:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Karate Kid W-30 442

That car wasn't a real W-30 because i didn't see the air scoops on the bottom

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 17:59:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Shadetree Mechanic...wasRe: 83-84 H/O fuel pump

On Tue, 5 Mar 1996, Scott R Clark wrote:
> >      I got one more question, for this high performance engine am I going
to > > need a new or high performance harmonic balancer (such as H/O option)?
Saw > > on Shadetree Mechanics on Sunday that they highly recomend that I do
buy a >      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ <snip> > Anybody > ever see them do anything
with an Olds?  I'm curious since I'm not a > regular viewer, I just happened
to be watching that day.

I like watching these guys even though they have to be superficial since
they only have 22 minutes or so to do their thing each week. But they
sure don't do much with Olds. The only thing I recall is one time they
said something about how hard it was to work on the 5-liter Olds V-8 in
the downsized Cutlass/Regal as compared to the SBC.

OTOH, they often do stuff that would apply to GM cars in general, like
fixing the A/C or swapping an engine like they did last week. My fave was
the one where they tuned a '67 Corvette, complete with Q-jet and points
ignition.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: "Dink" <heinle@jake.udayton.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 18:00:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Last of the RWD Delta 88s

> ***WHAT ABOUT A 1980 DELTA HOLIDAY 88 (they were made 78-80 and came with a
> Calais style bucket seat floorshif console and were kind of interesting also
the

Tell me more.  I never heard of it and it's not even in my old car
guide.  Sounds VERY interesting...

Dink
80 Delta 88 Royale 307

{
Dink           Dayton, Ohio
http://homepages.udayton.edu/students/heinle/
Computer Information Systems Major @ UD
}

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 18:12:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Toronado Xperts: Seen any XSR's?

On Wed, 6 Mar 1996 Bob0Barry@aol.com wrote:
> In "The Complete History of General Motors, 1908-1986", there is a picture
of > a 1977 Toronado XSR; what is unusual about this model is the *huge* >
wraparound rear window, like the 1950's Studebaker. > > Has anyone ever seen
this model Toronado? Was this rear-window only available > on this model, and
in 1977, or was this model offered in other years or on > other models?

In Dennis Casteele's book "The Cars of Oldsmobile" he confirms that this
was a one-year-only model for '77. There are 2 pictures of the car, let
me quote the captions:

"The top of the line Oldsmobile was the rare Toronado XSR. This was the
most expensive regular production Olds ever built with a base sticker of
$10,683. Only 2,714 of this front wheel drive machine were made. Weight
on model W-57 was 4,781 pounds. This would be the last year for Toronados
built in Lansing. Since their introduction in 1966 the Toro had its own
exclusive assembly line in Lansing. This model marked the first time ever
that an Oldsmobile had a base price in excess of $10,000."

"The XSR had a number of striking features. These included the so-called
Panoramic rear window along with an electrically operated astro roof.
There was also special striping on the package. In addition to regular
production Toros a total of 179 Toro chassis were built for special use.
Several major motorhome manufacturers used Toronado components in the
construction of their products."

I remember seeing at least one of these cruising around here when they
were new. If I had known they were so rare... :)

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 18:20:20 -0400
Subject: Reformulated Gas (fwd)

Received the following from my brother Dave who got it from another car
mailing list. Might be of interest to those of you in areas where this
fuel is mandated by the govt., like California...

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
______________________________________________________________________________
_ To: tbirds.mailing.list@shellx.best.com From: Jerry Wotel on Thu, Feb 29,
1996 4:12 PM Subject: CaRFG

The following is an article that Roger and I wrote
concerning the California Reformulated Gasoline. It tries
to present the reasons for the new gasoline, as well as,
the possible benefits and disadvantages.

You have our permission to use this article for your club
newsletters. Even those clubs not in California, may
someday have to deal with this new gasoline.

Jerry
- -----------------------------------------------

California Phase 2 Reformulated Gasoline Phase-In

On March 1, the world's cleanest gasoline will be produced
and used in California, and by June will be the only
gasoline to be pumped in the state. It is called California
Phase 2 Reformulated Gasoline (CaRFG). This cleaner burning
gasoline is required by California's Clean Air Act of 1988,
and the California Air Resource Board (ARB). It is designed
to reduce vehicle emissions.

Since January 1, 1995, reformulated gasoline has been used
in several Southern California counties which have poor air
quality. This was required by the Federal Environmental
Protection Agency. However, CaRFG will exceed these federal
standards. It burns more completely than conventional
gasoline and reduces emissions greatly: carbon monoxide and
nitrogen oxides by 11%, sulfur dioxide by 80%, and benzene
by 50%. The ARB estimates this conversion is equivalent to
removing 3.5 million automobiles from the highways.

The refining process for this gasoline is different and more
expensive. The price increase is estimated to be from 5 to
15 cents per gallon. It also reduces fuel mileage by up to
3%. However, it also will bring with it lower volatility,
that can result in longer starting periods and slower
warm-up. But most importantly, older high-mileage vehicles
may experience fuel system problems.

CaRFG has been tested extensively, according to the ARB.
More than 800 cars were driven over 5 million miles, by both
the ARB and refiners. Results indicate that old or high
mileage cars can experience swelling of rubber-based
components and possible failures of fuel system hoses,
o-rings, and fuel pump diaphragms. (This will also include
the carburetor float valve tip!).

Chevron (which did the most testing on older higher mileage
vehicles) states that they can not predict how the new fuel
will perform in every vehicle since test programs don't
always duplicate every combination. However, incidence of
fuel system problems were higher on older high-mileage
vehicles. The results of two Texaco studies indicate that
the switch to very low aromatic fuels might accelerate the
failure of some fuel system components (e.g. seals and
elastomers) in older, high mileage or extreme service
vehicles.

Californians driving old or high mileage cars had better
monitor their fuel systems for leaks with the new gasoline.
One possible solution for the carburetor needle valve
swelling is to replace it with a valve using precision
ground steel balls.

If you have questions, you can call the California Air
Resources Board at (800) 922-7349. Those with Internet
access can also read a more in-depth accounting at
http://www.arb.ca.gov, the ARB's World Wide Web site.

Roger Hayes & Jerry Wotel
Classic/Vintage Thunderbirds

------------------------------

From: edison3@cpeq.com (Mike Frederick)
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 18:48:09 -0400
Subject: Re: For sale

In the Tampa Tribune:

        Oldsmobile 1962 Starfire, 345hp, aqc, 2nd owners,
        good shape $4500/obo 813-948-1054

Also

        Opal GT 1970, fair condition, runs good, restorable
        $950 813-935-0683

and

     Opal 1970 GT,  RUNS GOOD, $600 813-935-0683


The 66 Toro and Mike


Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Inc.
Tampa, Florida
813.210.8649

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 19:13:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Last of the RWD Delta 88s

>1. Any significant differences from 80 to 85 model years? Any ones to
>avoid? I assume somewhere in there a computer entered the picture, anyone
>know what year?

Generally speaking, 1981 was the big year. If it has a CHECK ENGINE
light on the dash, it's computer-controlled. You will also find a
little open socket of about six ports staring at you from the lower
edge of the dash in the vicinity of the ashtray, usually. (Not visible
unless you get down under the edge of the dash, though.) This is your
ALDL (Assembly Line Diagnostic Link, I think it was) connector which
you'll use for troubleshooting and dumping error codes.

And, to be clear on this, having a computer in there is not a Bad Thing.
- --
Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 19:16:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Last of the RWD Delta 88s

>> ***WHAT ABOUT A 1980 DELTA HOLIDAY 88 (they were made 78-80 and came with a
>> Calais style bucket seat floorshif console and were kind of interesting
also the
>
>Tell me more.  I never heard of it and it's not even in my old car
>guide.  Sounds VERY interesting...

Yup, sort of like a Pace Car setup. Full size car with a console!
Big Rally wheels with huge center caps, as I recall. I saw a LeSabre
T-type at the local service station one day with the same setup in
it. The manager was going crazy trying to find a console shifter
cable for the thing...
- --
Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: conrad <rad19@icon.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 19:33:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Toronado Xperts: Seen any XSR's?

Bob0Barry@aol.com wrote:
>
> In "The Complete History of General Motors, 1908-1986", there is a picture
of > a 1977 Toronado XSR; what is unusual about this model is the *huge* >
wraparound rear window, like the 1950's Studebaker. > > Has anyone ever seen
this model Toronado? Was this rear-window only available > on this model, and
in 1977, or was this model offered in other years or on > other models?


I haven't seen that, but has anyone ever seen the '66 FORD Thunderbird
prototype that was made into a full-scale clay model?  It was nearly
identical to the '66 Toro.  It can be seen in Collectable Automobile
magazine, Oct '93 issue, page 77.

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 19:56:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Reformulated Gas

Well, if they can't sell your old car to a polluting industry for pollution
credits, they are going to destroy your older car.

Some recommendations:
1) Join SEMA (Speciality Equipment Market Association).  800 514-SEMA.
(http://www.4x44u.com/pub/k2/am4x44u/truck_stop/manufact/semaalrt.htm)
2) Write to your state and federal politicians.
3) Demand that your fuel related problems be reimbursed as below.  This is
right from CARB's web page.
4) Keep pressure on these *astards.

- --------------------------------
Release 95-15


Contacts: Jerry Martin/Allan Hirsch               August 10, 1995
          (916) 322-2990
                                               For Immediate Release

 ARB Distributes Diesel Reimbursement Checks



     The California Air Resources Board today announced that it has
begun to distribute more than 12,000 reimbursement checks to owners
of diesel vehicles damaged after the 1993 introduction of California
low sulfur diesel fuel.

     The first installment of about 6,000 checks was mailed today by
the State Controller's Office, the remaining 6,000 will be
distributed over the next several weeks as more claims are reviewed
and approved for payment by the ARB.  The checks, that range from
$5.00 to the $550 maximum allowed for heavy-duty diesel trucks, farm
or construction equipment and $450 for light-duty trucks and
passenger cars ends the program set up to repay drivers of diesels
damaged by the fuel when it was introduced in October 1993.

     "Today, the Air Resources Board and the State of California are
paying for a mistake we made two years ago.  While our diesel fuel
is the cleanest in the nation, when it was introduced it caused
some engine damage for which we are paying today.  We are not only
sorry, we are also accountable," ARB Chairman John Dunlap said.

     Assembly Bill 3290 was signed by Governor Wilson in 1994 to
provide relief for diesel owners whose vehicles were damaged after
the fuel was introduced in California.  The law directed the ARB to
use fees paid by oil companies unable to produce the new diesel blend
by the October 1993 deadlines to reimburse owners whose vehicles
developed leaks from pumps and fuel lines.

     The law provided diesel vehicle owners who were able to show
proof of fuel-related damage and appropriate repair forms to claim
reimbursement through the ARB's program.  During the course of the
program, ARB officials reviewed more than 13,000 claims for damage
to diesel vehicles, mainly to rubberized fuel pump and injector
parts of high mileage, older vehicles.  There are about 750,000
diesel vehicles registered in California, including big-rig trucks,
buses, passenger cars and light trucks.

     The cleaner-burning diesel blend was approved by the ARB after
the USEPA developed rules that lowered the sulfur content of on-road
diesel fuel.  Both the state and federal rules took effect
simultaneously, on October 1, 1993.  While the USEPA fuel only
required a reduction of sulfur levels to 0.05 percent from an
average of .28 percent sulfur content commonly found in diesel fuels
nationwide, the ARB's rule also required a reduction of aromatic
hydrocarbons, which contribute to nitrogen oxide emissions, an
essential component of urban smog.  ARB data shows that while
diesels only account for about 4 percent of California motor
vehicles, they emit about 40 percent of all nitrogen oxides from
mobile sources.

     The ARB recently was party to an agreement with the USEPA and
many of the nation's largest diesel manufacturers that provides
assurance of a national exhaust emission standard of 2.4
grams/brake/horsepower/hour for heavy-duty trucks in 2004.  That
Statement of Principals guarantees pollution reductions from
long-haul trucks that emit as much as 20 percent of all the state's
diesel vehicle emissions.  The ARB's clean diesel fuel will help all
diesel engine manufacturers to meet those new emission standards.

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 20:09:25 -0400
Subject: Toro 403's- 1977 specs

In searching for a 403 core to base my rebuild on, I thought I'd try to find
out what versions of this engine were made, and what they were installed in.
So far as I can tell from my Chilton's 1976-1983 manual, it seems that there
are 5 distinct versions, from lowest to highest hp:

1) 175hp@3600rpm, 310ft/lbs@2000rpm, 7.8:1 comp. ratio
    1979 Olds applications

2) 180hp@3400rpm, 315ft/lbs@2200rpm, 7.9:1 comp. ratio.
    1978 Pontiac applications (including Trans Am)

3) 185hp@3600rpm, 315ft/lbs@2200rpm, 8.0:1 comp. ratio
    1977 Buick applications

4) 185hp@3600rpm, 320ft/lbs@2200rpm, 8.0:1 comp. ratio
    Installed in all other 1977-1979 BOP applications, including 1978
Toronado

5) 200hp@3600rpm, 330ft/lbs@2400rpm, 8.0:1 comp. ratio
    1977 Toronado (only engine available)

All are listed as "K" code motors.

Of course, Chilton's is not the absolute standard for these specs, as they
admit in note ª1 that prefaces all these figures: "Horsepower and torque are
SAE net figures. They are measured at the rear of the transmission with all
accessories installed and operating. Since the figures vary when a given
engine is installed in different models, some are representative rather than
exact."

It looks like the Toro-specific engine is, as usual, the best starting point.
I'm wondering where the extra 15hp come from, since the compression ratio is
nominally the same. Does anyone have a 1977 Olds manual covering the
Toronado, that would tell you the differences that might account for the hp
differences? I'd assume cam, perhaps intake and exhaust; what, specifically,
though?

If I'm doing a 403 buildup, and all I'm using is the block with some early
heads, new pistons & cam, and a Performer intake with big-block exhaust
manifolds, then getting all the "good" Toro pieces would be a waste of time.

The 403 was only produced for three years, and supposedly had weak mains, but
with its excellent torque and *HUGE* pistons (4.351"- like boring a 455 a
1/4" over!), it should make an excellent street motor. I'm surprised it is as
overlooked as it is, since it was installed in *everything* during those
three years.

BTW, does anyone have a copy of that 1979(?) Hot Rod buildup of the 403? I'd
like to get an original or a photocopy of it, since it's the only thing I've
ever heard of focusing on the 403.

------------------------------

From: urbanch@magi.com (Chris Urban)
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 20:20:44 -0400
Subject: W-30 carb

Anybody want a 72 w-30 carb? Bets Offer.

------------------------------

From: Rocketeer <bparker@nmsu.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 20:40:38 -0400
Subject: '70 parts wanted

Anyone out there have a nice non Ram-Air air cleaner for a '70 442?

Boyd

------------------------------

From: Doug <mcclan@wsdot.wa.gov>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 21:08:32 -0400
Subject: (no subject)

I am a transportation planner so I just happen to have read an article or
two on the issue of air quality as it relates to transportation.  This
auto buy-back/destroy thing has gotten out of hand in some states.  It is
frequently used as a TCM (or transportation control measure) to show in
"plans" that emissions will be reduced if moneys are spent to buy back
the "junkers" and recycle them so they can pollute no more.

I have a real problem with this approach to solving our country's air
quality problems.  A poorly tuned 'newer' car can pollute just as bad as
an 'older' car.   Also, the fact of the matter is that more air pollution
is caused by the manufacturing of a vehicle than said vehicle can produce
in its useful lifetime.  So the emissions that are saved by destroying an
'older' automobile are more than put back into the air by the
manufacturing of another automobile to take its place.  Besides, the
automobiles they are targeting are very similar to my '67 Cutlass S.
Just try to take it from me EPA!  They took my octane (sp?) away, then
they took my lead too, but they are not getting my damn car.  Period!!!

Thank you for letting me vent.  I vent, therefore I am.
- ----------
>>>>>>>From: oldsmobile-owner
To: oldsmobile
Subject: Re: Reformulated Gas
Date: Wednesday, March 06, 1996 7:56PM

Well, if they can't sell your old car to a polluting industry for
pollution
credits, they are going to destroy your older car.

Some recommendations:
1) Join SEMA (Speciality Equipment Market Association).  800 514-SEMA.
(http://www.4x44u.com/pub/k2/am4x44u/truck_stop/manufact/semaalrt.htm)
2) Write to your state and federal politicians.

------------------------------

From: Scott R Clark <mickeyd@selway.umt.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 21:31:57 -0400
Subject: Cleaning parts -n- stuff. was Re: (no subject)

> I have heard that draino is used to clean parts of their rust and paint.
> Does anyone know if this is a good method of cleaning brackets and such?
> Is there a better way?  Do any rental companies rent portable sand
> blasters?
>

Drano is the same stuff they use in a hot-tank (NaOH...sodium
hydroxide-- a very strong base).  I have a little 5 gallon tank that
works like a dream on brackets and stuff.  I won't remove rust though,
just paint and grease.  You would need an acid to remove rust.  NaOH also
works a lot better if you can find a way to heat it.  One other tip--only
use it on ferrous metal (iron or steel).  It will dissolve aluminum and
other alloys making your day a lot less fun.  When you pull the stuff out
of the tank all you need to do is hose it off, and you're ready to go.
If you want more details let me know.
>
> I have the stock drum brakes in front.  What size tires have you people
> put on your CSs that fit.  I'm looking at 16 inch aluminum rims (come on
> now, don't make me justify them it's not that big of a deal, they come
> right off with five little lug nuts) with medium to low profile tires.
> If anyone will admit to doing the same, what was the biggest size tire
> you fit on this car (if I know the largest size tire that will fit, I can
> work back to what I think looks best for me)  Anyone know what the offset
> is that I have to match?

Hmmm.  A while back I bought a set of 16x8" aluminum IROC rims for my
Camaro (I know, I know...not even an Olds) and I didn't have any problems
fitting 245s on the back (could go wider).  The problems I have are with
the front.  After I installed them with 205/50VR16s, I started having
bizzar front end problems.  It would pull hard one way, and then a while
later, it would pull hard the other way.  It really kept me on my toes
since if I wasn't paying attention when it happened I would soon find
myself off the road!!  Needless to say I changed the fronts back to the
original wimpy 14x7" wheels until I figure out what the problem is.  The
only reason I bring this up is it's just something to think about.  My
struts and ball joints are getting really old, and that could have
something to do with it.

Don't get me wrong here, I mean Mustang Rod took a 60 something
Chevelle and put on a set of 16s with 50 series tires (4" backspacing)
along with a buch of other goodies and had a tremendous inprovement in
handeling.  I just wanted to mention that there could be bizzar problems
with them.  Of course, bizzar car problems seem to happen to me a lot!!  :)

I hope this is of some help (at least a little anyway ;)

Later,

Scott
1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98

------------------------------

From: Mark Wolfe <markw@wwa.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 21:46:14 -0400
Subject: Re: (no subject)

Doug wrote:
>
> We here in Washington State are entering into the rainy season.  The sky
> is grey, the ground is wet and all outdoor activities must endure the
> seasonal facts that I just mentioned.  This being the case I chose to
>

Hmmm...    If I remember correctly, the rain season starts Aug 1st, and
ends Jul 30th.   :)   Anyway, looked over your message, and have a
couple suggestions in the handling improvement department.    First off,
no A-Body had anything resembling handling.    Replace the springs, and
change the geometry, suspension places that come to mind are Guldstrand
Engineering, and that Pontiac place...   Guldstrand has some nifty
tubular upper control arms.  Take a look in a PHR for the ads,
Guldstrand is in culver city, ca.   I can't for the life of me remember
the poncho place, but they should be in PHR, they market a kit that lets
you adapt F body spindles to the front of your olds to GREATLY improve
the handling.    I'd also hang the drums on the wall of the shop as a
decoration, and stick some real brakes on the car, as you'll need them
for my next recomendation.    Park the 330 under the workbench, that way
you don't damage it, and if you ever decide to turn the car back into a
sedate driver, well, you've got the original engine.   What you need is
something that will break stuff, like trannies, driveshafts, and rear
ends....     With that in mind, you will want a 68-70 455 to start with,
a good set of 'C' castings, and here is the recomendation for a street
strip 455.    Cam JM-20-22, or a 22-25, performer or torquer intake, a
mild porting job to the heads, oiling system mods, like toro pan,
restrictors, and HV pump. (get the pump from melling).   TRW, or
Speedpro 10.25:1 pistons, (this may take some consideration here, as
mine runs on pump gas, but I have to back the timing off.)    Anyway,
that'd be the basis for the engine, Trans: T-400, and then a set of
3.23-3.55 rear gears, especially with the 20-22 cam.     For a shot of
this combo, check out bryce's page olds registry, and you may recognize
the track.   If your upstate, I have a buddy in bellingham who is into
442's, (68 convert, and a 71 W-30).   Well, hope this helps.
Cul,
Mark

------------------------------

From: roady@postoffice.ptd.net (Cory Roadarmel)
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 22:26:58 -0400
Subject: Rear End Gear Ratio Specs

Just went to the Olds dealer today and gat a printout of all the gear ratios
for the 1985 G body cars. It also lists all the posi units and size of rear.
(ie, 8.50in, 7.50in).
If you would like a copy please e-mail me and I will send.

Cory Roadarmel
1985 Olds 442

------------------------------

From: Dan Dale <daleds@okra.millsaps.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 22:34:08 -0400
Subject: RE: Toronado Xperts: Seen any XSR's?

>
>Has anyone ever seen this model Toronado? Was this rear-window only available
>on this model, and in 1977, or was this model offered in other years or on
>other models?

I know of one that is in a junkyard near here.  I've always loved those
windows, and especially the taillights mounted in the decklid.  Olds was
really looking ahead when they built that car.

Dan Dale
'72 Cotner-Bevington Olds 98 Endloader

------------------------------

From: jrjet@whidbey.net (Dot & Tim McChesney)
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:12:55 -0400
Subject: re;(no subject)

Doug wrote:asking about suspension up grades for early A bodies. I have a
71 cutlass with the F body spindles and the tubular a arms. The kit I used
wasa from Global West suspension in Ontario Ca. (714)923-6180 . The kit
changed the feel of the car, the beast dosnt roll as much in the corners, I
have yet to buy the sway bars for the front and rear but have put konis on
the front huge differance in handling. Doug dont know where in Washington
you are but if close to seattle might be able to meet and you could see the
set up on a car I live on Whidbey Island.
                      Tim 71convert

------------------------------

From: Rod Rickenbach <rod@hopi.dtcc.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:40:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Toro 403's- 1977 specs

On Wed, 6 Mar 1996 Bob0Barry@aol.com wrote:

> In searching for a 403 core to base my rebuild on, I thought I'd try to find
> out what versions of this engine were made, and what they were installed in.
> So far as I can tell from my Chilton's 1976-1983 manual, it seems that there
> are 5 distinct versions, from lowest to highest hp:

If you want a core, use a '77 block.  Supposedly stronger due to fully
webbed bottom end.

> 5) 200hp@3600rpm, 330ft/lbs@2400rpm, 8.0:1 comp. ratio
>     1977 Toronado (only engine available)

You could get a Toro in '77 with the 455.  Mighta bin that XJS (whatever :)
package that's been discussed lately.

- -Rod
-
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
    Rod Rickenbach                                       Delaware Tech
     rod@dtcc.edu                                 Computer Services Department
http://www.dtcc.edu/~rod                            Stanton/Wilmington Campus

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #111
********************************
