
oldsmobile-digest           Sunday, 26 May 1996        Volume 01 : Number 186
     
     
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From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner) 
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 18:42:41 -0300 
Subject: Re: Graphics 
     
>
>And try not to get your honeymoon tapes mixed in with it.    ;) 
>
     >>>Unless the honeymoon was in an Olds!  (Who could ask for a better,
more romantic place to start a family?!)
     
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern 
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner 
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 455
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)
     
------------------------------
     
From: OLDSPWR@aol.com
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 18:56:35 -0300 
Subject: Need some 403 help... 
     
After picking up my new OD tranny (200-4R) the other day, I decided to pull 
my 403 and put a neoprene rear main in it to replace the leaky rope.  So in 
the process of removing the main caps so I could slightly raise the crank and 
polish the area were the seal sits, I noticed the all of the lower main 
bearing are wore down to the copper!  How about that! I only have 15000 miles 
on it, and it never see more than 5000 rpm.  So now I decide to check the rod 
bearings, and it turns out that all the upper ones are wore to the copper.
 It seems funny thought that both the upper mains and lower rods were fine.
  Maybe the crank is out of round. It gets better...
     
While removing the rod caps, I noticed that they are all pointing in all 
differents directions.  One side of the cap has a 45 angle while the other 
has a 90.  So it would seem that the two 90's should face each other and the 
45's should face out.  Make sense??  Bu how about this:  The tangs for the 
bearings are all out of wack.  Do they face the inside or outside of the 
block (I think the outside).  I have some facing the outside and some facing 
the inside.  So either the machine shop pressed the rods on the pistons wrong 
or the piston is in 180 degrees off.  I could rotate the off ones 180 but how 
can I tell which is the front of the piston by looking from underneath (the 
heads and intake are still on)  I have looked my Hayes manual, a Motor 
Manual, and a 72 GM service manual with no luck.  (BTW didn't put the motor 
together way back then) So how about some help!!! Tom Millard OLDSPWR@aol.com
     
------------------------------
     
From: Chris Urban <urbanch@magi.com> 
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 20:00:37 -0300 
Subject: RE: crank Q's
     
- ----------
From: 	Chris Brown Witt[SMTP:wittchri@pilot.msu.edu] 
Sent: 	Saturday, May 25, 1996 9:02 AM
To: 	wittchri@pilot.msu.edu; oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca 
Subject: 	crank Q's
     
     
So, why then did p'gage say clr was OK??? I'm thinking that the #3 clr = 
was off,
was NOT in fact 0.001", but that the plastigage does not squish out any = 
smaller
than that, thus leading me to believe that there was 0.001" when in fact = 
there
was not.
Chris if the mains are out of alignment the crank will bind even if the = 
clearances check out. Crank may also be bent.
     
OK, problem? #2... I wanted numbers, ya know... so, I figured put a = 
crank bolt
in the front end, use the beam type tork wrench to see breakaway tork & = 
turning
tork.. OH, what's this? the crank has NOT the std. 3/4" NF threads, but = 
only
1/2" NF threads ??? Early production, 1965 maybe, 400 crank? That'd = 
explain how
Bryce came up with only 50 ft# for a tork on that bolt...
  I have never seen an Olds crank with less than a 3/4 bolt in the =
front, even
my old '64 330 engine... With any luck, I can drill & tap for the larger 
bolt...
   Anybody else ever seen one of these small-bolt cranks?
     
I've never seen one and don't want one. Sounds scary.
     
     
Anyhow, the tork to break the crank free with all caps in place was = 
about 65
ft#, after which it turned with 'only' about 30 ft#... This compared to = 
the
usual good installation where the crank itself turns easily by hand on = 
the
front snout.
A fully assembled short block(pistons and rings) should not require more = 
than 25ftlbs. to turn (you are using oil on everything as you assemble = 
right?), a crank alone should not even register a ftlbs force on your = 
torque wrench ( must be very easy).
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist 
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu
     
------------------------------
     
From: Chris Urban <urbanch@magi.com> 
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 20:04:09 -0300 
Subject: RE: Need some 403 help...
     
Best way is to rip that baby apart and do it right. Oh yeah, never trust = 
ANY machine shops work esspecially as far as OLDS are concerned, there = 
just aren't enough knowledgeable (about OLDS) machinists around.
     
- ----------
From: 	OLDSPWR@aol.com[SMTP:OLDSPWR@aol.com] 
Sent: 	Saturday, May 25, 1996 5:56 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Need some 403 help...
     
After picking up my new OD tranny (200-4R) the other day, I decided to = 
pull
my 403 and put a neoprene rear main in it to replace the leaky rope.  So = 
in
the process of removing the main caps so I could slightly raise the = 
crank and
polish the area were the seal sits, I noticed the all of the lower main 
bearing are wore down to the copper!  How about that! I only have 15000 = 
miles
on it, and it never see more than 5000 rpm.  So now I decide to check = 
the rod
bearings, and it turns out that all the upper ones are wore to the = 
copper.
 It seems funny thought that both the upper mains and lower rods were =
fine.
  Maybe the crank is out of round. It gets better...
     
While removing the rod caps, I noticed that they are all pointing in all 
differents directions.  One side of the cap has a 45 angle while the = 
other
has a 90.  So it would seem that the two 90's should face each other and = 
the
45's should face out.  Make sense??  Bu how about this:  The tangs for = 
the
bearings are all out of wack.  Do they face the inside or outside of the 
block (I think the outside).  I have some facing the outside and some = 
facing
the inside.  So either the machine shop pressed the rods on the pistons = 
wrong
or the piston is in 180 degrees off.  I could rotate the off ones 180 = 
but how
can I tell which is the front of the piston by looking from underneath = 
(the
heads and intake are still on)  I have looked my Hayes manual, a Motor 
Manual, and a 72 GM service manual with no luck.  (BTW didn't put the = 
motor
together way back then) So how about some help!!! Tom Millard = 
OLDSPWR@aol.com
     
------------------------------
     
From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com> 
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 23:08:39 -0300 
Subject: Re: Graphics
     
buehner wrote:
> 
> Unless the honeymoon was in an Olds!  (Who could ask for a better, 
> more romantic place to start a family?!)
     
Arf-arf! :)
     
The 66 Toro and Mike
     
     
- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649
     
------------------------------
     
From: DALTONDIX@aol.com
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 22:11:42 -0300 
Subject: 1958 
     
My father recently bought a 1958 oldsmobile (not sure what model) and I have 
not talked to him about it much.  I know he is really looking forward to 
retiring and spending a lot of time restoring it.  I have a lot of experience 
building plastic model cars and would love to make him his "dream olds" as a 
surprise.  If anyone has any information at all about a model kit of a 1958 
Oldsmobile, I would really appreciate any help you can provide.  A pre-built 
kit may suffice, but any info would really help.  Thank you!
     
DALTONDIX
     
------------------------------
     
From: jrjet@whidbey.net (Dot & Tim McChesney) 
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 23:02:48 -0300 
Subject: Re: 1970 Olds 442 
     
>>>
>Sorry, no "key lock", just a dust plate to keep junk out of the assembly 
>when not using the gated side. Since the Dual Gate has two parallel 
>"Gates", it was associated with a "His/Her" since the assembly shared the 
>same centerline of the car.
>
The hurst heritage book has it in it with lock." Ad copy for the dual gate 
was sexist in a style soon to disapear. The "His/Her" shifter,it was 
called.  This key on his personal key ring prevents the use of the 
competition gate by the curious parking lot attendent, or the little lady. 
No chance of them over-revving the engine waiting for the automatic shift."
     
That is straight out of the book. lock was latter dropped.
     
Tim McChesney
71 cutlass convertable
Mac Quadra
     
------------------------------
     
From: DALTONDIX@aol.com
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 01:30:27 -0300 
Subject: Re: 1970 Olds 442 
     
I don't know why I got your message about a keylock or something.  I just 
signed up tonight with the Oldsmobile club.  Do we get everyone's mail that 
is sending back and forth?  When I send out a message, does everyone respond 
and do I see everyone else's messages just the same?  Someone should be 
explaining this better.
     
DALTONDIX
     
------------------------------
     
From: urbanch@magi.com (Chris Urban) 
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 17:58:25 -0300 
Subject: Re: 1970 Olds 442 
     
Yes thats exactly what happens
     
     
>I don't know why I got your message about a keylock or something.  I just 
>signed up tonight with the Oldsmobile club.  Do we get everyone's mail that 
>is sending back and forth?  When I send out a message, does everyone respond 
>and do I see everyone else's messages just the same?  Someone should be 
>explaining this better.
>
>DALTONDIX
>
>
>
     
------------------------------
     
From: JK McCall <jkmccall@clic.net>
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 17:49:03 -0300 
Subject: Re: G-body gauge instructions..
     
OLDSPWR@aol.com wrote:
     
> your address, and I'll sport a stamp and send you out a copy.  It's 11"x17"
     
> Tom Millard OLDSPWR@aol.com
     
     
Tom:  I'm interested but I'm not sure if you willing to sport the 
postage to Canada???
     
If so my address is:
     
JK McCall
14 Chapman
Courcelette, QC
G0A-1R1
     
P.S.  I'm still junk yard searching for a set of gages from a Vista 
cruiser...
     
     
Joe
     
------------------------------
     
From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu> 
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 18:09:19 -0300
Subject: harumph
     
Well, crank showed no detectable runout on  my custom aluminum crank stand, so 
block went off to the shop to be assessed by the experts & line-honed... 
Another $80 or so and another week's delay.  :(
     
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist 
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu
     
------------------------------
     
From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com> 
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 21:21:52 -0300 
Subject: Re: 1970 Olds 442
     
DALTONDIX@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I don't know why I got your message about a keylock or something.  I 
> just signed up tonight with the Oldsmobile club.  Do we get everyone's 
> mail that is sending back and forth?  When I send out a message, does 
> everyone respond and do I see everyone else's messages just the same?  
> Someone should be explaining this better.
     
Yes, any message sent to the Olds list is distributed to all members of 
the list.  If you want to reply to a an individual, use their specific 
email address.
     
And I believe it was explained in the sign-up instructions.
     
Quiet weekend for email, wait 'til Tuesday.
     
The 66 Toro and Mike
     
     
- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649
     
------------------------------
     
From: JK McCall <jkmccall@clic.net>
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 18:03:12 -0300 
Subject: Re: G-body gauge instructions..
     
JK McCall wrote:
> 
> OLDSPWR@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > your address, and I'll sport a stamp and send you out a copy.  It's 11"x17"
     
     
OOOPPPPSSSS.... time to wake up...
     
------------------------------
     
From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu> 
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 18:43:30 -0300
Subject: Misc Stuff
     
> What heat? Brakes convert kinetic energy into heat. That's their job. 
> Stopping a car from 100mph in 8 seconds will dissipate exactly the
> same amount of heat energy in the brake system, *regardless* of what 
> the pad materials are. It's true that there are tiny, subtle
     
Sure, sounds good, a given amt. of KE is converted to heat. Now, let's change 
the time frame [i.e., have better braking] by dissipating that same amt. of 
energy in a shorter time, say, 6 sec.  Unless we get to the limits of tire/road 
traction, the max braking force would seem to be a function of the pad and disc 
surface interaction and the force applied by the pads. Seems like the limiting 
factor would then be the friction developed by the pad/disc interaction, and of 
course how fast that heat can be carried away, so that more can be generated 
w/o melting the disc, frying the pads, etc.
     
Cam number info:
>           For 1970 models:
>           Part#=09=09Overlap =B0Duration, =B0=09 
>           =09=09=09Inlet=09Exhaust
>          =20
>           393859=0958=09286=09286
>           400084=0936=09250=09264
     
etc.   Huh? That's aLOT of numbers.... computer settings wrong somewhere?
     
> I think you answered your own question Chris. The roller cam profiles are 
> far larger than a hydraulic and to use roller lifters with a hydraulic cam 
> would give very little valve movement. Not to mention that the valve train 
> geometry would be right out the window. You would have to order custom
> pushrods at least.
     
Well, I was under the impression that if the whole schmear were swapped: 
lifters, pushrods, rockers if necessary [3/8" ball...] then sll else would be 
the same... in other words just use the pushrods correct for the lifters -Chris-
     
> 1968 GM Oldsmobile division products!  I can just see it... Here's a nice new 
> Cutlass S/ 442 hood... We drop a 500# weight on it... and look, it bends just 
> like the model predicted it would! AAAAGH!
> Might have to go scope that thesis out...
     
Well, not quite... I looked at it... It was a packaging student concerned with 
damage to hoods in shipment by rail car to the ass'y factories. Linden, NJ got 
the most damaged units generally, up to 40% of a shipment arrived damaged, 
mostly due to poor banding practices and  use of nonfunctional locking bars. A 
couple nice photos of shipping units chock full of 442/ Cutlass-S hoods... nice 
& pretty. Photo of some damaged units. Even a shipping unit full of 88/98 
hoods. Some photos taken inside the Olds factory apparently. The student 
attepmted to model the action of rail car motion with a moving table.
     
Also- another student, 1967 thesis, on the introduction of the Olds Toronado... 
this was an advertising student, so his angle was about the advertising 
surrounding the car's introduction... not much else... but many repro's of the 
introductory ads, in fine detail. interviews with associated folks, and... the 
tidbit that the Toronado project, shrouded in secrecy before its official 
announcement, was known as "XP-784".... how many knew that before? Only a few, 
I'm sure...
- -Chris-
     
> More duration will give bad idle because or over lap and more lift will cause 
> pistion to value clearance problems. Any thoughts?
> Fernando Proietto
     
Well, on my 455 with small-dish pistons... I cut the valve guides to fit teflon 
seals and to accomodate the higher cam lift. I ended up with about 0.030" 
retainer-guide clearance on a cam with about .520 lift... with a good 0.200" 
yet to go before valve-piston interference. This is with uncut K heads and a 
gasket of 0.040-0.045" thick- typical. Rocker was nowhere near the end of its 
travel either. -Chris-
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist 
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu
     
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End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #186
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