
oldsmobile-digest           Tuesday, 21 May 1996        Volume 01 : Number 180


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Peg O'Connor" <peg@grove.ufl.EDU>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 00:18:48 -0300
Subject: Re: 442?

> It could not be a real 442 because the 2 in 442 stands for 2 door. 

Nope . . . . means duals.

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 00:31:20 -0300
Subject: Re: primo photos wanted 

In a message dated 96-05-19 23:22:53 EDT, you write:

>If you mean the spelling of encyclopedia as 'encyclopaedia', it is not a
>spelling error.  It is some latin spelling or somethin' :)
>
>

Mea culpa   (:

Greg

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 19:35:54 -0300
Subject: Re: primo photos wanted

Toronado66@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 96-05-19 16:57:19 EDT, Mike writes:
> 
> >TORO?????  No Toro, no buy.  Whatya say, Toro-heads?
> >
> >
> >We are currently looking for photographs of all types of classic cars for
> > inclusion in our encyclopaedia
> 
>I may be prejudiced, but how can anyone want a historically accurate automobile without including the Toronado.  This car showed just what 
American technology could do with a big front wheel drive car.  This is 
the world standard.  Those little cars were a snap do do with their 
minimum requirements for a drivetrain.  Luxury sport sedans weren't 
being built by anyone until Oldsmobile showed the world how.

Bill Culp

------------------------------

From: "Shawn M. Twomey" <stwom@ctp.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 00:43:03 -0300
Subject: Chiltons & 307s 

>Chilton's, in all their typographical error confusion, lists both the 9 and Y
>engines at 148HP @ 3800 rpm, and 250 torks @ 2400 rpm, yet, one has a cam lift
>of 0.250-0.252" and the '83-84 "Y" motor has a "cam lift" of 0.400" [sounds
>suspiciously like "valve lift" from that same cam, to me...]

I noticed this as well, and since I didn't know the real figures at the
time, I was wondering just how you can have more cam and the same HP and
Torque.  Its like, if you don't know the real figures, don't just copy over
some from another column, you nitwits.  That tends to confuse gullible
people like me.

> Ah, here in 1985,
>we list the Y with 0.247-0.251 cam lift, and thge 9 engine with 0.275" cam
>lift, almost believeable.

Yeah, but the manual says the 9 engine has more LIFT, but everything else
I've heard says the HO cam has more DURATION.  I'll check my shop manual....

>Both are 8.0:1 compression.

At least THAT's accurate (unfortunately).

__________________________________________________________________________
Shawn M. Twomey     |  "No!  Try NOT!  Do, or do not.  There is no try."
stwom@ctp.com       |  -Yoda
__________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 19:38:14 -0300
Subject: Re: primo photos wanted

Jeff Hunter wrote:
> 
> At 11:14 PM 5/19/96 -0300, you wrote:
> >In a message dated 96-05-19 16:57:19 EDT, Mike writes:
> >
> >>TORO?????  No Toro, no buy.  Whatya say, Toro-heads?
> >>
> >>
> >>We are currently looking for photographs of all types of classic cars for
> >> inclusion in our encyclopaedia
> >
> >Evidently this guy spells as well as his ability to recognize a classic car!
> >  LOL
> >
> >Greg K
> >
> 
> If you mean the spelling of encyclopedia as 'encyclopaedia', it is not a
> spelling error.  It is some latin spelling or somethin' :)
> 
> Jeff Hunter

The fellow, I believe, is British.  They never could spell in English 
(or is that American?).

Bill Culp

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 00:57:35 -0300
Subject: RE: Battery Problems Again!

On Sun, 19 May 1996, Roger M. Borlase wrote:
> I had a similiar problem with my '72 cutlass wagon.  I replaced the starter 
> and the regulator after the car started turning over slowly.  Shortly after, 
> the starter wouldn't disengage until the engine was running.  So it would just 
> turn over would me holding the key!  Neat party trick, but was scary on cold 
> days.  It would just stop trying to turn over, and eventually stopped.  But 
> then I had to disconnect the battery to give it another go.

So, Roger, how did you eventually fix this one? Sounds like a bad 
ignition switch...

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 01:30:20 -0300
Subject: Re: primo photos wanted 

In a message dated 96-05-19 23:45:38 EDT, you write:

>>I may be prejudiced, but how can anyone want a historically accurate
>automobile without including the Toronado.  This car showed just what 
>American technology could do with a big front wheel drive car.  This is 
>the world standard.  Those little cars were a snap do do with their 
>minimum requirements for a drivetrain.  Luxury sport sedans weren't 
>being built by anyone until Oldsmobile showed the world how.
>
>Bill Culp

Bill, 

I couldn't have said it better myself!

But we must keep a bit of historical perspective here. Cord and Ruxton paved
the way with the ideology. However, it wasn't so much deveolping the CV
(Retzupa. sp) joint as it was the rear mounted transmission. The Cord had the
gearbox in front of the motor and had an electric shift selector. As I
recall, Ford had the original patent on the FWD configuration with rear
(side) mounted tranny and torque convertor. They couldn't make it work
though, and sold the patent to GM for pennies and could not produce a FWD car
for ten years after the sale of the patent.

The fellas at GM (Olds  division) designed the Morris chain drive without an
idler (something Ford couldn't do). By "pre-streching" the chain, an idler
was never needed. Toros with 350K + still have the original chain without any
chatter at all and are virtually bullitproof! Ford spent years screwing
around with idlers and viscous dampening via dash pots that always wore out
quickly as their chain (rubber in some cases) stretched out. I believe noise
was one of the most objectionable factors here also. The "real" secret of the
Toro is the revolutionary super quiet Morris chain drive IMHO. 


And now you know.........the rest of the story!

Greg Kalkhoff.........Good Day! 

 

------------------------------

From: Bob Valentine <ravalent@liii.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 02:08:51 -0300
Subject: Re: What does 'corporate' mean?

> > would have the Type O rear end.  In '71 they went to a GM corporate 10 bolt.
> 
> I keep seeing references to this GM corporate thing.  What is it?  Does it
> just have to do with rear ends?

    Effectivly, the idea was to cut down from having 10 or so rears that 
all fit the same frame.   This went further to engines, like in the 80's 
when GM decided that there would be one V6 (Buick) and in 1990, only on 
"brand" of V8's - Chevy (bad choice, IMHO but at least we can say Olds 
lived on the longest - Buick got the cut in '76 or so, Pontiac in '79 or 
so and Caddy in 80 or 81).   
   
    The 8.5" 10-bolt lives from '72 on to current.   Used in everything 
from F-bodies to light duty trucks.   I *WISH* I could find a 8.5" unit - 
I've *NEVER* seen one that fits 68-72... only found 8.2" Chevies, and the 
usual Buick/Olds rears.  

                     -->   Bob Valentine  <--  
                    --> ravalent@liii.com  <--
        "Experience varies directly with equipment ruined"


    

------------------------------

From: Bob Valentine <ravalent@liii.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 02:12:32 -0300
Subject: Re: Battery Problems Again!

On Sun, 19 May 1996, Greg Beaulieu wrote:

> regulator could kill a battery internally? Anyone had any experience
> troubleshooting the old-style regulators? I know it's not a big-$ item,
> but I hate to lose the Delco-Remy cover under the hood... 

     You could do what I did - I changed some of the wiring in the 
regulator so it would send the right juice to a internally regulated 
alternator.   Changed the wires from the connector on the old alternator 
to the new alternator.

     Only "difference" now is the appearance of the alternator....

     I've got a file on how to do this somewhere.  I'll send it up 
sometime next week.
    
                     -->   Bob Valentine  <--  
                    --> ravalent@liii.com  <--  
            "Hard Acceleration Saves Costly Aggravation"

------------------------------

From: "Roger M. Borlase" <BORLASE@gordonc.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 07:27:24 -0300
Subject: RE: Battery Problems Again! 

>So, Roger, how did you eventually fix this one? Sounds like a bad 
>ignition switch...

Ignition switch is fine, although turning key back for ac doesn't turn on the
radio.  The bearing in the starter must have been really worn.

The starter and voltage regulator were replaced.

Roger Borlase

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 12:40:51 -0300
Subject: Re: primo photos wanted

Toronado66@aol.com wrote:
>  
> Mea culpa   (:

Should be: Mea maxima culpa!

The 66 Toro an Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 12:43:25 -0300
Subject: Re: primo photos wanted

Lloyd Culp wrote:
>  
> I may be prejudiced, but how can anyone want a historically accurate 
> automobile without including the Toronado.  This car showed just what
> American technology could do with a big front wheel drive car.  This is
> the world standard.  Those little cars were a snap do do with their
> minimum requirements for a drivetrain.  Luxury sport sedans weren't
> being built by anyone until Oldsmobile showed the world how.
> 
> Bill Culp


Ya gotta love this guy.   :)

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 10:11:28 -0300
Subject: Time to Dump?

Hi,

Looking for opinions on whether it is time to dump my 86 olds cutlass =
supreme coupe. I bought it new and have gone through the following =
crisises..=20

Its one of those 307s with a 4barrel that can't get out of its own way =
because it has to much weight to slug around

Intake manifold gasket replaced 3 times (I know this is a defect)
Lower doors replaced twice cuz there were no drain holes (another =
defect)
Patched frame behind the rear tires
Body work every spring for the past 4 years
Bad vibration in the rear which went away when drive shaft replaced.
Annoying squeak from hell, when stopping or leaning on the front end of =
the car which no one can seem to diagnose...
New radiator
New fuel pump
A/C too expensive to replace
Cruise control doa
Power antenna doa, and looks like you need to remove the front body =
panel to replace.
Weak rear springs (need to replace soon)
Rotors from hell, constantly need turning
Linkage sticks open every once in a while, even though I keep it well =
lubed, causing the accelorator to stick to the floor. I need to check =
for a busted motor mount.
I have always changed the oil every 3000 miles, always checking fluids, =
always getting tuneups so I basically know what I have. Since my fuel =
pump went, I am always carrying around extra oil, since I had that =
gasket defect, I am always carrying around water/anti-freeze, I carry =
spare belts, I can't even see the bottom of my trunk anymore.

Anyway, the car looks great after all the body work is done, its nice an =
big, the new ones blow, but, what is this car worth (kelley blue book =
value) and are there any other surprises you know of that may be coming =
down the pike? Thanks, Joanne

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 11:24:25 -0300
Subject: Re[4]: "n-bolt" rear ends... 

          Nick DiGiovanni, 
          
          I accidentally deleted your email address.  Please send it 
          again.  Thanks
          
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
        
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

          

Port Coquitlam, B.C.
1970 4-4-2 - "Snarls Softly and Carries a Big Kick"
          
          

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 10:55:51 -0300
Subject: Re: 442? 

In a message dated 96-05-19 20:24:29 EDT, you write:

>It could not be a real 442 because the 2 in 442 stands for 2 door. 

Are you serious?

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 12:13:20 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: 442? 

          
>It could not be a real 442 because the 2 in 442 stands for 2 door. 
          
          The first "4" refers to four cylinders; the second "4" 
          stands for four wheels....   ;)
          
          (apologies to the Quad 442 owners...)
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30
          
          

------------------------------

From: lawrencr@kostabi.gdls.com (Robert Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 11:26:12 -0300
Subject: Re: Battery Problems Again!

> Greg Beaulieu wrote:
> > 
> > Jump started it OK ...
> 
> So everything BUT the battery seems OK.
> 
> > ... drive to charge it up. No problems ...
> 
> So the battery will take a charge.
> 
> > ... 6 hours later it turned over slowly, but caught.
> 
> OK, it's losing charge.
> 
> > ... measure the voltage across the battery terminals. A little over 
> > 10 volts.
> > ... 6 cells if I recall correctly.
> 
> Yup, 2 volt per cell times 6 cells = 12 volts.
> 
> > ... is there anything in the car itself that could cause a battery to 
> > go bad in this way? 
> > An aside: a couple of months ago I noticed my dash lights pulsating 
> > while the car was running.
> > ... similar pulsation that led them to replace the whole regulator...
> 
> BINGO!
> 
> > Is there any conceiveable way a bad regulator could kill a battery > internally? 
> 
> Oh, yeah.  A faulty regulator can cause over charging which can kill one 
> or more cells.  This (with the pulsating lights) make the regulator look 
> like the winner.  BTW, measure the battery voltage with the car OFF.  
> Then measure it running at idle and at a very fast idle.  The voltage 
> should read between .5 and 1.5 volts higher than the first reading.  
> Anything more or less indicates a regulator problem (or, if always low, 
> gen/alt).  Also, if I remember right, the design voltage for autos is 
> 13.8 volts.
> 
> 
> The 66 Toro and Mike

Just to add my two cents...

The battery will read lower than 12 volts if it has been discharged.  Just
because it is reading lower than 12 volts does not mean the battery is
bad.  But, a bad cell will drop the voltage two volts.

Most auto parts stores will test your battery for free.

A good test of the charging system is to check the voltage with the
engine running.  13.8 is the right number.  You can check right across
the battery terminals.

You said this was a new battery.  Why did you have to buy a new battery?
A new battery will hide a slow drain for, oh, about two weeks.  (He
says, speaking from experience.)

Bad diodes in the alternator can cause a slow drain.  I don't understand
why, but you can't measure it.  It seems to need time to let an electrical
field to build up, and then if you pull the battery cable off to put
an ammeter across, it breaks the short.  (Again, speaking from experience.)

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Lawrence   | 1970 Oldsmobile 98 Convertible               .^.
lawrencr@gdls.com |  _________,~--,___________\____________     /9|8\
(810) 825-8007    |  |                |~    |        ___   |    \}|{/
Sterling Hts., MI |  =------(-o-)-------------------( o )--=      v

 

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 10:38:37 -0300
Subject: Re: primo photos wanted 

>>>I may be prejudiced, but how can anyone want a historically accurate
>>automobile without including the Toronado.
[...]
>I couldn't have said it better myself!

Uh, before we go off and lynch the guy for daring to omit the Toronado--

(pause to genuflect in the direction of Detroit)

can I suggest that maybe the reason Toros weren't mentioned was simply
because Greg's page had 442s on it, and they were looking for some good
shots of 442s? I mean, he didn't ask Greg about H/Os, W-30s or 1903 Curved
Dashes either, not did he sign off with, "P.S. In our editorial opinion,
Toros really bite the big one."

Did anyone with a Toronado on their web page hear from him?

And as for the British spelling of anything, let me just say that we
always add emergency backup vowels to our words and names in case any 
of the main ones experience technical difficulties. For example, I am 
from Loughborough in Leicestershire, and am still running on the original
vowels.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 10:42:27 -0300
Subject: Re: Battery Problems Again! 

>You said this was a new battery.  Why did you have to buy a new battery?
>A new battery will hide a slow drain for, oh, about two weeks.  (He
>says, speaking from experience.)

I'd suggest a charging system test. Good battery cables will give a good
cranking performance, and a good alternator will run the engine without
warning lights once it fires up, but if the charging system has poor
connections to the battery (e.g. alternator -> starter solenoid -> cable
to battery), it will never get around to properly recharging the battery
after startup, and eventually the battery simply runs out of reserve.
Installing an ampmeter might reveal charging (well, REcharging) problems.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: bryce_smith@442.com (Bryceman)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 11:59:21 -0300
Subject: Re: Remote oil cooler 

>Found a piston or two. Thanks, Bryceman! Turns out I had a couple on hand, too,
>though of questionable salvageability. Then there's that 67 Toro complete
>engine awaiting a Purpose In Life... hassle to extract it just a piston or 2
>though...

After we corresponded last, I got this message from you (Friday). I took it
to mean you had discovered you had some others on hand and didnt need mine.
Guess I misinterpreted the message. I will get them together at lunchtime
today and UPS 2nd day them. I will want to trade something for them but as
of now, I cant think what I need. You can have 'em free as long as you dont
forget when it comes time for me to hunt for stuff for the boat & 442. Do
you still have one of those main girdle kits from Mondello? I dont know if
you heard, but I aquired a jet boat & want to drop a blown 455 into it. Got
an extra steel crank lying around?  ;)


 EXCESSIVE IRON rules the road!
'65 442
'66 Dynamic 88 B07 Apprehender
 bryceman@442.com
 www.442.com

------------------------------

From: "Tom Waldron" <tomw@harborside.teleres.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 08:01:00 -0300
Subject: H/O Parts

I'm looking for parts for my '84 Hurst Olds. In particular, the tips for   
the wing. Any help would be appreciated.  

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 12:13:05 -0300
Subject: Re: Battery Problems Again!

Slightly more info on this... after sitting overnight with cables 
disconnected the battery still read a little over 10v on the meter. So no 
recovery on its own. Hooked up the cables and it started but again a very 
sluggish cranking speed. At idle the flickering dash lights were as bad 
as I've ever seen them. Speed up and they don't flicker. Suspect a bad 
regulator.

Didn't think to measure voltages with the engine running. I'll do that 
soon. Unfortunately it's p****ng rain here again today for the 3rd day in 
a row and the fourth weekend in a row, so I really don't feel like 
getting soaked by chasing all over town tracking down the problem today. 
In a bad mood, I guess. Andy's advice is good, I only wish I had an ammeter.

The old battery had to be replaced because it was stone dead, internal 
short (or so it seemed). At the time we did that the battery cables were 
replaced too, in the name of preventive maintenance. They were still the 
old original GM ones with side terminal connectors grafted on to the ends 
none too expertly. Figured it was time for a change, and I'm pretty sure 
having good connections is not the problem.  

The thing I find strange about all of this is that the car seldom had any 
charging-system problems before - always a first time I suppose - and 
even now when it's running everything works fine. I'll keep you all posted.


Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 15:21:11 -0300
Subject: Re: primo photos wanted

Andrew C. Green wrote:
> 
> And as for the British spelling of anything, let me just say that we
> always add emergency backup vowels to our words and names in case any
> of the main ones experience technical difficulties. For example, I am
> from Loughborough in Leicestershire, and am still running on the 
> original vowels.

Oah! Wei gout it nouw.

(and for the Frendch-Canadians)

Aux! Oui gaut eit, nauw.


The 66 Toro and Mike   ;)


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 13:20:04 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Battery Problems Again! 

          I've had problems in the past with corrosion between the 
          terminal lugs where they mount to the threaded post on the 
          horn relay (junction block for pre-68s).  Typically, every 
          12 volt hot wire (less the main cable to the starter) will 
          be attached to this post, including the wire from the 
          alternator to the battery for recharging.  (Speaking from 
          experience) corrosion here will hinder the charging process. 
          It's an easy thing to check and correct.
          
          I admit that I haven't followed all the postings on this 
          thread, so I appologize if this has been said before, but 
          have you checked the fan belt tension/condition?  I had a 
          similar problem on my truck, where it was not charging 
          properly.  It turned out that even though the belt appeared 
          to be tight, it had glazed and was slipping under load.  
          Consider roughing up the "V" of the pulley also.
          
          Hope this helps.
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 11:26:17 -0300
Subject: Re: Battery Problems Again! 

>In a bad mood, I guess. Andy's advice is good, I only wish I had an ammeter.
>
>The old battery had to be replaced because it was stone dead, internal 
>short (or so it seemed). At the time we did that the battery cables were 
>replaced too, in the name of preventive maintenance. They were still the 
>old original GM ones with side terminal connectors grafted on to the ends 
>none too expertly. Figured it was time for a change, and I'm pretty sure 
>having good connections is not the problem.  

Okay, this brings up a couple of things...

- -- The last time I found a weak spot in the charging system of a GM car,
it was a crappy 10 gauge wire which ran from the back of the alternator
to one of the small terminals on the starter solenoid where its current
flow links to the positive battery cable to recharge the battery. I don't
remember labeling or exactly which alternator terminal it bolts to since
I was simply fixing physical damage (bad splicing where someone cut in
an aftermarket alternator) and it charged nicely after that. The big
cables to the battery weren't really involved in that problem.

(Just yesterday I fixed the spouse's K wagon; its recharging lead comes
all the way up to the battery, where there was a loose connection under
one of those idiotic aftermarket clamp-on replacement clamps which I
swear _I_ didn't buy, and the battery hadn't been recharging well. OK now.)

- -- Those GM side-terminal connectors develop "hidden" corrosion under the
bolt heads that you need to clean out. After unbolting the connector from
the battery, you need to pry/twist/turn/pull the little bolt out of the
rubber ring. Yes, it puts up a fight. Do it anyway. Once you get it out,
you will probably find corrosion on the underside of the bolt head where
it presses on the metal ring insert in the rubber connector. Clean the
underside of the bolt and the metal ring in the connector. Wipe Vaseline
over all of it to keep the connections clean (it will also help you force
the bolt back into the rubber connector ring) and hook it all back up.
The results will be worth it.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 13:53:55 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: primo photos wanted 

For a minute there, I thought I was receiving mail from Usenet. . .

Maybe someone should send some photos of their Toronado, Delta, W-30, W-31, 
W-32, XSR, Jetfire, Starfire, Delta 88, along with a letter written by a 
third party, asking for inclusion of the above car for this and that 
reason, to the address given in Chris' posting?

Just a couple of cents.

David Brown          OCA #27978         (312) 702-9157
    "Oldsmobile - powerful roadsters with big V8s"
Send Olds FAQ request to: dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 08:25:42 -0300
Subject: Re: primo photos wanted

Andrew C. Green wrote:
> 
> >>>
> And as for the British spelling of anything, let me just say that we
> always add emergency backup vowels to our words and names in case any
> of the main ones experience technical difficulties. For example, I am
> from Loughborough in Leicestershire, and am still running on the original
> vowels.
> 
> Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
> Datalogics, Inc.
> 441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
> Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

Andrew:

I appreciated your comments about back-up vowels.  I will try to 
remember that wonderful explanation the next time I am teaching English. 
Only the Brtitish can make fun of themselves like that.  Americans are a 
little stuffy.

Bill Culp

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 12:39:06 -0300
Subject: Re: primo photos wanted 

>I appreciated your comments about back-up vowels.  I will try to 
>remember that wonderful explanation the next time I am teaching English. 
>Only the British can make fun of themselves like that.  Americans are a 
>little stuffy.

Thanks -- I assume that last word above was supposed to read "stoughy",
but the Americans do seem to prefer quick-and-easy spelling. Takes all
the challenge out of it, IMHO.

And to answer the people who want to know why my last name of "Green"
is missing the spare "e" on the end (i.e. "Andrew C. Greene"), I'm told
that it was used by one of my ancestors in the Great War to repair damage
to one of the other "e"s (the one on the right, actually) following a 
surprise attack by German language teachers. They also carried off a 
_lot_ of our consonants, many of which can still be seen today in BMW
service manuals. 

Okay, okay, back to Oldsmobiles now!

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 13:48:32 -0300
Subject: Re: Battery Problems Again! 

I had a problem similar to this.  The battery would drain down over several
nights if the car was not used every day.

It turned out, after _much_ investigation to the be one of the wires which
feeds the regulator.  Check them all for an open or short. I was able to see
very small sparks when taking the pos. bat. cable on and off indicating a
draw someplace. I did measure mine and it was on the order of 0.2 amps.  Not
a bunch but enough to kill a battery over time.

The red wire of the four feeding the regulator is supposed to be 12V hot at
all times.  On my '67 wiring harness it draws from the main battery
connection.  Mine had an intermittant open condition.  Drove me nuts for
weeks. I pulled one fuse at a time - no change, still a current draw.  Pulled
the front body connector - no change, still a draw.  Pulled the engine
compartment body connector - no change, still a draw!  What the heck is going
on?  Obvioulsy it's in the engine compartment but where? Drove me nuts!  I
too just disconnected the battery while it was parked unless I was to drive
it again shortly.

I keep the car in a garage and left it to cool off one day.  The battery was
connected because I expected to be using in a couple of hours.  I was doing
something unrelated under the hood and noted that the alternator was warmer
than the rest of the engine. I loosened the belt and spun the rotor by hand.
There was resistance indicating an activated field meaning it was "on" and
trying to charge with the ignition off.  Why?

When I dsiconnected the regulator the current draw stopped.  It turns out the
voltage regulator was just doing it's job.  That red wire was open and when
the regulator sensed low voltage in the system it was calling on the
alternator to charge the battery.  But the car wasn't running so the current
drawn by the alternator slowly discharged the battery.

I've never heard of this failure before.  You wouldn't expect the wiring to
the regulator to get that much use that it would suffer an invisible internal
break. But once I spliced in a new piece of wire with good connections the
problem went away permanently.

Just another piece for your puzzle Greg.  With everything off loosen the
alternator belt and see if there is any resistance to turning the rotor.  If
there is a magnetic field you can feel the resistance to the rotor turning.
 Then you _just_ need to find where and why the darn thing is active when it
isn't supposed to be. Wiring, diodes,??? Good luck.

Can you imagine how much fun it will be in 10-15 years to trouble shoot
electrical problems in a 96 Aurora?!

Bob Handren
'67 W-30 Modified
'70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 14:30:30 -0300
Subject: Re: Battery Problems Again!

Here's the latest up-to-the-minute bulletin...

Checked voltages with the engine running. On fast idle immediately after 
startup, it was jumping around, between about 13 and 14.5 volts. 
Probably explains the flickering dash lights, huh? After 
maybe 30 seconds, it stopped jumping and settled down at the higher 
level. I then kicked down the idle and it pegged my old analog meter 
somewhere at 15 volts or more. Regulator definitely not doing its job.

Called the parts store, will have a regulator in a couple of hours. While
waiting, took off the old original Delco Remy piece and opened it up. The
cover gasket did a job for the last 28 years since it's absolutely
pristine inside, actually still shiny everywhere. Neat. Looked at the
field relay points (that's what the service manual calls it, I still don't
understand how these things work after reading the thing 2 or 3 times. Not
an engineer-type I guess); minor pitting, nothing that looked too bad. 
Looked at the two sets of points on the voltage regulator part of the
thing; the top set looked brand-new, the bottom set were really
burned-looking. I suppose it could be that the thing has been misadjusted
since it was new and the bottom points finally gave out. Who knows. 

I don't know what kind I'll end up with from the parts store, except that 
it won't be a Delco. Might be one of the solid-state kind. Expect those 
are probably an improvement over this design. Maybe I'll get lucky and 
get one where the old Delco cover will still fit! Ah, originality...

BTW along these same lines the new batt cables are the repro spring-ring 
type, not famous for their longevity I hear. I do like their ability to 
easily come off with just a pair of pliers in situations like this. 
Battery is obviously a top post style. Somehow I think I'm gonna need 
another one of those...

Bob Handren: excellent advice re. checking for unknown loads. Did that 
last night and found none. At least I hope I don't have the kind of 
maddening problem you had! Interesting tip re. turning the alternator to 
check, though. Would never have known that.

Stay tuned for more news as it develops...

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 14:51:51 -0300
Subject: clatter

Got the HEI installed and timed out right this weekend. Looks like ererything
is working fine. Didn't put the recureve kit in it yet (didn't want to change 
too many things at once). Initial timing is 8 deg BTC, didn't mess with limiting the vac advance. When I first took it around the block for a test run it seemed
to run fine. This morning on the way to work (1 1/4 mi) it ran fine. Took it 
home for lunch and played around with it a little (heavy on the gas peddle). 
After I ate and started back to work I noticed that the car would clatter even
at low speed acceleration. When I say clatter I mean like what a standard truck sounds like when you are pulling something in too high of a gear. Now this make me think that it is one of a couple of things:

1. Car is getting too hot. Idiot light didn't come on and coolant didn't 
overflow. Car heats up very quickly (heat in the winter in about 1 mi. without  letting it warm up in the driveway!). Today its about 96 in Texas. Could
be?

2. Too much initial timing. Maybe vacuum advance needs to be limited (as per
Bob Handren)

3. Low octane gas. Am running regular unleaded 87 octane. Have never had a 
clatter problem even after I rebuilt the engine until I put the HEI in and got the car hot (didn't clatter last night when it was cool and I didn't dog the car)

4. Crossfiring plug wires. Have to do a better job of routing my plug wires
they lay on top of each other in too many places.

Of the above four, the overheating bothers me the most. I am leaning towards
either 2 or 3. How does the car's temperature have an effect on the above 4?

Let me know what you guys think.


          ___              ___        _________
         /   |            /   |      /         \
        /    |           /    |     |   ___    |
       /     |          /     |     |__|   |   |
      /      |         /      |           /   /   
     /       |        /       |          /   /   
    /   /|   |       /   /|   |         /   /
   /   /_|   |__    /   /_|   |__      /   /
  |             |  |             |    /   /
  |______     __|  |______     __|   /   /_____
         |   |            |   |     |          |      Pat Clark
         |___|            |___|     |__________|       69 442
						      400/400

   "Just your average primered out, clattering, gas sucking, money pit"

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 17:52:48 -0300
Subject: Re: primo photos wanted

> Only the British can make fun of themselves like that.
> Americans are a little stuffy.

Stuffy?  We are not!  
How dare you say that we can't make fun of ourselves!  

I will do a silly walk right now to prove it.
So there!

...following a surprise attack by German language teachers.

I got your vowels.  Nah-nah-na-nah-nah.


Das 66 Toro und Mike FREIDRICH      ;)



- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 15:14:04 -0300
Subject: Re: primo photos wanted

> Stuffy?  We are not!  
> How dare you say that we can't make fun of ourselves!  
> 
> I will do a silly walk right now to prove it.
> So there!
> 

Monty Python eat your heart out!

(Good God this shows how old I am!)


          ___              ___        _________
         /   |            /   |      /         \
        /    |           /    |     |   ___    |
       /     |          /     |     |__|   |   |
      /      |         /      |           /   /   
     /       |        /       |          /   /   
    /   /|   |       /   /|   |         /   /
   /   /_|   |__    /   /_|   |__      /   /
  |             |  |             |    /   /
  |______     __|  |______     __|   /   /_____
         |   |            |   |     |          |      Pat Clark
         |___|            |___|     |__________|       69 442
						      400/400

   "Just your average 300+hp garage hogging, gas sucking, money pit"

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 14:25:31 -0300
Subject: Re: A/C Airflow 

>I was driving my grandmother around in her '82 Buick Regal which is
>basically a facelifted Olds Cutlass.  Anyway, I turned on the A/C and the
>flow didn't come thru the vents, but blew out the floor registers.  I can
>make the defrost come thru the vents near the windshield and if I mess
>with it for a while, I can get the air to come out the front vents.  My
>guess is that the vacuum diaphragm may be leaking.  Anyway to check these
>without ripping out the whole dashboard?

Oh, jeez, I forgot to reply to this when I was wading through all the
junk that piled up over the weekend... Hope you haven't ripped the
whole dash out yet...

Yes, you have a vacuum leak, but I don't think there's a leaky diaphragm
anywhere. Two likely places to check:

1) Under the hood, maybe one or more vacuum lines are disconnected. It
sounds like the vacuum is simply not there, for the most part, and though
you've only noticed it inside the car, I kind of suspect the engine isn't
getting any vacuum either. (Does the car have cruise control? Does it work?)
You'll want to visually check the vacuum hose routing under the hood and
check that none of it is cracked or missing. If you find golf tees stuck in
the end of vacuum lines, start looking for more idiot repairs.

Also check that the vacuum reservoir/amplifier is intact; it's the round
black plastic sphere mounted near the A/C evaporator housing on the right
(passenger's) side firewall. One line leads to the engine for the vacuum
source; the other leads towards the firewall and the HVAC system in the
dash. If you have a vacuum meter, check that the line leading to the engine
is drawing vacuum (fluctuating with engine speed is OK), and that the port
to which the other line connects (the HVAC line) is supplying a constant
draw regardless of engine speed. Recap: check the _line_ leading to the
engine, then reconnect it to the reservoir and check the _other_ _port_
on the reservoir for a strong, even, vacuum draw.

2) If that checks out, the next likely suspect is the rotary vacuum valve
behind the slide controls on the dash HVAC panel. Since you say you can 
make it work if you "mess with it for a while", it sounds like this might
be the culprit. Might as well get good at doing this anyway; you'll find a
lot of GM cars starting to go bad with this problem:

You need to remove the faceplate of the dash, unscrew the retaining screws 
for the control panel and ease it outwards (gently!) to get access to the 
back. A bundle of vacuum lines connect to a round valve that is turned by 
the sliding of the selector control (OFF/MAX/AC/BI-LEVEL/VENT/HEAT/DEFROST).
Find the release hook that allows you to unplug the vacuum line bundle from
the valve, then find the retainer screw (vertical, next to the valve) which
holds the valve to the back of the control panel. Replace the valve with
the $9 (or thereabouts) replacement that you bought from the GM dealer
after the tests in Step (1) for the reservoir checked out.

Reassembly is the rev-- well, you know.  :-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 16:43:59 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: San Diego ramblings 

Thanks.  Checked with my '65 body manual - no match on the rear tail 
lights.  My memory is a little foggy now except for the tail lights and the 
front didn't look like a '69.

I should have stuck around.

David Brown          OCA #27978         (312) 702-9157
    "Oldsmobile - powerful roadsters with big V8s"
Send Olds FAQ request to: dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu

- -----------------
In a message dated 96-05-14 16:20:54 EDT, you write:

> with the horizontal 4" 
>by 10" tail lights in the bumper.  Anyone know what year that is?

Sounds like a '68?  Need more info

Paul

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 16:50:36 -0300
Subject: Re: Penny Casteele - All Is Forgiven! 

Greg,
Way to go!  This sounds encouraging with what you and Chris have mentioned 
about speaking with people.  It has taken this long for the "rush" to clear 
:) over those NOS parts and factory support!

Can't wait for that June show!

David Brown          OCA #27978         (312) 702-9157
    "Oldsmobile - powerful roadsters with big V8s"
Send Olds FAQ request to: dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu
- -------------------

I spoke with her some about OCA's lack of presence on the web and for 
that matter the lame presence of Olds itself as a company. 
<snip>
It was interesting to hear her say that she was talking to John Rock 
about all of this at some point and that he seemed very supportive of the 
whole concept. Most of Olds' corporate attentions in this area right now 
are directed to support of their dealers and she thinks that Rock would 
be very favorably disposed to what's going on here if he knew about it. 
She also finds Rock very keen on the preservation aspect of Olds and 
mentioned that he was the only Olds factory person in attendance at last 
year's Lansing show, was upset by that, and she figured that this year it 
might be a different story. She finds him to be a different sort of exec, 
not the usual corporate type. Encouraging.

The possibilities are endless if you let your mind wander a bit... 
factory support for parts hunting, tech advice, a presence here on the 
list, warehouse full of NOS parts suddenly becoming available... boy, more 
opium!!! :)

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 15:59:43 -0300
Subject: Re: Battery Problems Again!

At 02:12 AM 5/20/96 -0300, you wrote:

>     You could do what I did - I changed some of the wiring in the 
>regulator so it would send the right juice to a internally regulated 
>alternator.   Changed the wires from the connector on the old alternator 
>to the new alternator.
>
>     Only "difference" now is the appearance of the alternator....
>
>     I've got a file on how to do this somewhere.  I'll send it up 
>sometime next week.
>    
Yes, please post that...I'm considering converting to HEI soon, and would
like to convert to internal regulator at the same time.  From what you said,
the external regulator remains in place?  Just doesn't function anymore,
retains "original" look, right?
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

 "I was put on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things;
    right now I'm so far behind, I'll never die"  --Calvin

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 16:12:15 -0300
Subject: items

> thanks for the help. I have attemped to plsce it there but i
> must be doing something wrong because my glove box wont
> shut . but thanks anyhow
>                           Chuck

Oh, did you want to use your glove box AND have the stereo radio... :)
Maybe you better reconsider, after hearing what radio delete does to 1/4 mile
times...   -Chris-

> BTW, anyone want to buy my super-rare carb for $2K?  Chris?   :)  :)  :)
> - -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy

Yeah, but I don't have any "K" dollar bills- what is that? Something you buy a
Chrysler K-car with? Money for use at K-Mart?  :) -Chris-

> >In a message dated 96-05-15 16:02:27 EDT, you write:
> >>Heh, I was a car once in a boneyard in AZ
> >That must have been interesting for you.
> Whew, what a rotten feeling he must've had...

Rotten? Not in AZ... faded, maybe, but not rotten.

> . It seems as if the cutlasses
> > just did not have enough room. Again thanks.
> >
> > Chuck
>
> Buick Skylarks don't have stereo radios because there is not enough room
> for the multi-plex portion and therefore have only plain AM/FM.  I
> believe that Cutlasses have the same problem.  My 1968 has only an AM/FM
> search type. Bill Culp

My service manual shows that stereo thingy only in big cars... I suppose if you
want it bad enough you'll find a way to make it fit around the glovebox door
mechanism... ingenuity... bent sheetmetal... a cordless screwdriver...

> >Is there a way to tell, without opening the rear end, what size carrier is
> >in there? (a number or something on the rear?)
>
> There is a two letter code stamped to the passenger side on the axle tube.
>  See your Olds service manual for exact location and what the code means
> versus specific ring and pinion gear ratio. Bob Handren

What, you live in Florida or something, Bob? Oh, I see you DO live in
Florida... heh. Up here, the rust has long since obliterated any trace of the
diff code if indeed it ever was on there... in which case we resort to counting
turns, counting teeth, etc. for diff. ID. Year One ??? catalog has a neat
picture showing how to ID B from P from O types by the position/ number/ etc.
of strength ribs in the side of the pig... I cannot recall which is how right
now... -Chris-

> > > It will feature over 100 manufacturers and 1000 models,
> > > including the Oldsmobile 4-4-2.
>
> TORO?????  No Toro, no buy.  Whatya say, Toro-heads?

I suggest you take up the issue with him, the publishing guy... I have a nice
photo of my two '66 Toros now... in a very decayed state... should get them on
Bryce's page :)
  I agree, though, no Toro, no purchase...

> Drag Racing Champion Olds
>
> The ultra rare, 1970 Oldsmobile F85 W31 Sports Coupe that set a 1974
> World Drag Racing Record of 90.86 mph in 8.47 seconds is also now in the
                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^
dang, 8.47 seconds, but only 91 mph !!?!?! What happened? Broke a driveshaft
halfway thru a 6-second run, probably, and coasted thru the lites... :)

> Volo Antique Auto Museum.  The International Hot Rod Assoc. certified it
> as a "record symbolizing an excellence in mechanical achievement, a
> perfection in driving ability and a valued contirbution to the sport of
> drag racing."
>
> The car is a post sedan with W31 ram air 350 with 325 hp.  It has
> documented, all original parts and all matching numbers down to the
> carburetor, and only 9,000 actual miles.  It has "pop bottle" hub caps

Yeah, but does it have the original AIR in the tires?

> and the radio was taken out.  The body is painted Aspen Green with black
> stripes.
>
> I thought that this was remarkable until I read that the radio was taken
> out.  With that kind of weight reducation any car could do as well.
> Bill Culp

I wondered why it required an engine crane to remove the radio from my car!

> From: MLupis5150@aol.com
> Subject: Re: 442?
> It could not be a real 442 because the 2 in 442 stands for 2 door.

Oh, you must've been talking to Dave, the car answer guy... :)
> I found this guy Dave on the net, answers car questions... I asked him about a

You sure it's not 4-barrel carb, 4-door, dual batteries? Maybe 400 or more CID
engine, 4-speed, 4-barrel, 2-door, dual exhaust... no, wait, that's the 44422.
Um, 4 seatet, 4 speakers, 2-channel stereo? :)  -Chris-
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 16:15:08 -0300
Subject: Re: Time to Dump?

At 10:11 AM 5/20/96 -0300, you wrote:

>Bad vibration in the rear which went away when drive shaft replaced.

The whole driveshaft was replaced?  Probably just needed U-joints.

>Annoying squeak from hell, when stopping or leaning on the front end of the
car which no one can seem to diagnose...

Probably control arm bushings (from what I understand, it's a common in GM
cars.   My 69 Cutlass does it sometimes.)

>Rotors from hell, constantly need turning

Cheap/worn out brake pads???

>Anyway, the car looks great after all the body work is done, its nice an
big, the new ones blow, but, what is this car worth (kelley blue book value)
and are there any other surprises you know of that may be coming down the
pike? Thanks, Joanne

After all that work, time, parts, and money, I'd probably keep it.  Fix that
throttle stick problem.  You've gotta replace the whole A/C system??  That's
probably not necessary.  Take it somewhere to get it checked.  Around here
it costs about $20 or $30 for a complete A/C check. Might just be a leaky
hose or connection.  Does the compressor work?  The most expensive part will
probably be the freon (R-12 around here goes for $25 - $30 a pound now!).
Usually takes about four pounds to refill an empty system.  If the system
has a leak, and it's been there for a while, I'd replace the accumulator,
too.  No help here on the cruise or power antenna.  I know the bottom door
rot is a common thing with those generation GM's.  My friends 85 Monte is
the same way.  Anyway, it sounds like you've taken care of the car...I'd
keep it. 

But that's just my opinion.
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

 "I was put on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things;
    right now I'm so far behind, I'll never die"  --Calvin

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 16:33:28 -0300
Subject: Truck help

Anyone with any knowledge of a 1984 Ford truck with EFI, please respond to my
person email address.

302 V8, automatic with overdirve, electronic multi-point fuel injection.

Symptoms: stalls randomly for no apparent reason when idling, stopping,
parking, etc. Runs fine otherwise.

Chilton's is useless. I have no REAL manual. Prolly on of them doodahs with
wires on the air intake system, but which one? Ford have self-diagnosis like GM
does?

Olds relevance: This is what will be salvaging all them rare Olds pieces from
Padnos for the next year or three... H heads, 455-4V's, #6A heads, aluminum
intakes, stuff like that... Towing the Midnight Cowboy [78 Cutlass
race car] back-n-forth for service, etc.... So I don't wanna hear about how
this ain't Olds-related, 'kay?

PS it's a far better truck than the similar Dodge unit I was using...
 --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 16:36:57 -0300
Subject: Engine work

OK, the camshaft is here, the new JM 28-29 with *egg-shaped* lobes, as opposed
to the circular lobes that the [3-hour] old unit had machined itself...

soon as the B-man gets them pistons here, we are in full assembly mode. Fresh
crank, new oil pump, new cam & lifters....

Hey, Rocky, watch me pull 500 horses out of my hat!

Not that trick! That trick never works!

This time for sure!
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 16:37:04 -0300
Subject: Re: clatter

At 02:51 PM 5/20/96 -0300, you wrote:

>After I ate and started back to work I noticed that the car would clatter even
>at low speed acceleration. When I say clatter I mean like what a standard
truck sounds like when you are pulling something in too high of a gear. Now
this make me think that it is one of a couple of things:
>
>1. Car is getting too hot.

My guess is that while driving, the timing is advancing too far (HEI vacuum
advance is not limited). This is causing the engine to become too hot, which
will make it clatter.  I had a problem with overheating due to the timing
being too far advanced.  I didn't have a timing light, so I set it "by ear"
(HA!).  Well, I set it way too far advanced (like 20 BTDC, I think it was
when I checked it).  After just a mile or two of driving, the engine would
clatter like hell, even under very light acceleration.  The first time that
happened and I opened the hood, there was small amounts of oil leaking out
from around the RACovers onto the heads, and it was boiling on the heads!
(Ouch!)  When I reset the timing to the correct setting (8 BTDC) everything
was as it should be, once again.

>2. Too much initial timing. Maybe vacuum advance needs to be limited 

8 BTDC is correct for initial timing setting for the 1969 400 engine.  The
advance is just advancing way too far.

>3. Low octane gas. Am running regular unleaded 87 octane. Have never had a 
>clatter problem even after I rebuilt the engine until I put the HEI in and
got the car hot
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
^^^^^^^^^

Ya see?  There it is!  If you've never had a problem running 87 octane with
the points ignition, you shouldn't have a problem with 87 octane and HEI.

BTW, what is the compression ratio of your 400?  Just curious, my 69 has a
350 in it with 10.25:1 compression (stock), and if I run anything under 92
or 93 octane, it really clatters!  The stock CR for the 69 400 is 10.5:1;
did you change it when you rebuilt it?      

>4. Crossfiring plug wires. Have to do a better job of routing my plug wires
>they lay on top of each other in too many places.

I don't think so...

>Of the above four, the overheating bothers me the most. 

And it should!  Olds engines like to be run cool...

>                        Pat Clark
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

 "I was put on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things;
    right now I'm so far behind, I'll never die"  --Calvin

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 16:43:48 -0300
Subject: Re: Engine work

At 04:36 PM 5/20/96 -0300, you wrote:
>OK, the camshaft is here, the new JM 28-29 with *egg-shaped* lobes, as opposed
>to the circular lobes that the [3-hour] old unit had machined itself...
>
I hear those circular lobe cams are pretty rare--better hang on to that for
a while.  Maybe put a picture up on Bryceman's web page, so we all know what
to look for.  ;-)
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

 "I was put on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things;
    right now I'm so far behind, I'll never die"  --Calvin

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 15:50:56 -0300
Subject: Re: Time to Dump? 

>Intake manifold gasket replaced 3 times (I know this is a defect)

Maybe the first time... but three replacements is a bit more than the
other '86 Cutlasses are requiring. Were these all done by the same guy?

>Lower doors replaced twice cuz there were no drain holes (another defect)

Twice? Fully replaced, or are they patching the same ones? Perhaps their
anticorrosion treatment before painting is leaving a little to be desired.

>Patched frame behind the rear tires

Yup, heard about that...

>Body work every spring for the past 4 years

Hmmm. Details?

>Bad vibration in the rear which went away when drive shaft replaced.

Someone else thought about U-joints here; sounds like they know.

>Annoying squeak from hell, when stopping or leaning on the front end of 
>the car which no one can seem to diagnose...

If the anti-sway bay link bolts break in the right place (~$20/pair),
the broken ends do sound like hell. Been there, done that. Can send
you details if interested.

>New radiator

Mine, too. Old one died from old age: corroded fins and finally a leak.
One every ten years isn't too bad.  ;-)

>New fuel pump

Okay, that happens...

>A/C too expensive to replace

Details on this?

>Cruise control doa

Dead On Arrival? It _never_ worked? Leaky vacuum lines, maybe? They were
temperamental gadgets, true.

>Power antenna doa, and looks like you need to remove the front body panel
>to replace.

Uh, yeah, I think you do have to do some dismantling of the front right
fender. Didn't look like much fun although I've never had the pleasure...

>Weak rear springs (need to replace soon)

Not too big a deal there. 10 years of age is a long time for GM springs.

>Rotors from hell, constantly need turning

Why? After the first turning goes bad, they should look for the cause of
the problem: e.g. sticky caliper(s) or slides, rotors too thin, etc.

>Linkage sticks open every once in a while, even though I keep it well lubed,
>causing the accelorator to stick to the floor. I need to check for a busted
>motor mount.

Uh, yeah, I would.  ;-)  Maybe just a frayed cable, out of position carpet
or dangling wire behind the dash, too (something snagging the pedal assembly).

>Anyway, the car looks great after all the body work is done, its nice an big,
>the new ones blow, but, what is this car worth (kelley blue book value) and 
>are there any other surprises you know of that may be coming down the pike?

Um, when's the next intake manifold gasket scheduled to blow?  :-)  Seriously,
the car is just a machine and I can tell you probably like it or you wouldn't
have owned it for ten years, but I get a sense from your list of problems
that a lot of what should be permanent repairs aren't holding. I'll give the 
car one intake gasket due to a design defects or sloppy assembly or whatever,
but the others don't commonly happen. Similarly, after a rotor has been 
properly resurfaced and goes bad, I would go looking elsewhere for a problem
that is trashing the rotor. I will word this carefully in case your favorite
mechanic turns out to be a relative or something, but... I think you might 
want to get some second opinions about some of these problems that keep 
coming up over and over. Maybe some of the repair procedures are being done 
a little hastily and key steps (e.g. torque settings on manifold bolts,
anti-corrosion surface prep on new body panels) aren't being done properly.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 17:00:56 -0300
Subject: Re: clatter

> 
> Ya see?  There it is!  If you've never had a problem running 87 octane with
> the points ignition, you shouldn't have a problem with 87 octane and HEI.
> 
> BTW, what is the compression ratio of your 400?  Just curious, my 69 has a
> 350 in it with 10.25:1 compression (stock), and if I run anything under 92
> or 93 octane, it really clatters!  The stock CR for the 69 400 is 10.5:1;
> did you change it when you rebuilt it?

      
> Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
> dpauliso@metrolink.net
> 
 

Didn't change anything other than to put the newer thicker head gaskets on which
according to Dr. Witt should lower the CR some. This is really the first time
I have had the engine all together, with good compression and proper advance
since I have owned it so the fact that it used to run on low octane dosn't
amount to squat.

          ___              ___        _________
         /   |            /   |      /         \
        /    |           /    |     |   ___    |
       /     |          /     |     |__|   |   |
      /      |         /      |           /   /   
     /       |        /       |          /   /   
    /   /|   |       /   /|   |         /   /
   /   /_|   |__    /   /_|   |__      /   /
  |             |  |             |    /   /
  |______     __|  |______     __|   /   /_____
         |   |            |   |     |          |      Pat Clark
         |___|            |___|     |__________|       69 442
						      400/400

   "Just your average 300+hp garage hogging, gas sucking, money pit"

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 16:06:50 -0300
Subject: Re: clatter 

>After I ate and started back to work I noticed that the car would clatter
>even at low speed acceleration. When I say clatter I mean like what a 
>standard truck sounds like when you are pulling something in too high of 
>a gear.

Last time I heard that, it was an EGR valve stuck closed. Can you test to
see if it's opening when it's supposed to? I think it stays off until the
car is warmed up, and stays off (closed, whatever) during WOT, and maybe
some other conditions, too. But in normal driving, if it's off, you can
get knocking like you wouldn't believe...

(BTW, if it's a ported design, such as on the Buick rod-knocker V6s, it
cannot be tested with a vacuum pump; you need to test it on the engine,
or at least hook up a constant vacuum draw.)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 17:40:15 -0300
Subject: Late News From Halifax

Quick update: got new regulator (world-renowned and time-honored "Victory
Lap" brand... :)   real glad the parts house had one of those). Old cover
*almost* fits, not quite, but won't bother messing with it for now. 
Points-style unit, like the old one. Surprised they still make these. 

Install with no problem, start engine (reluctantly again), measure 
voltage. Eureka! Just under 14 volts on my dial meter. Steady, regardless 
of engine speed. No flicky lights. Oh joy!

All I need now is a new battery... 

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 20:53:24 -0300
Subject: Re: Late News From Halifax

Greg Beaulieu wrote:
> 
> Just under 14 volts on my dial meter. Steady, regardless
> of engine speed. No flicky lights. Oh joy!

Cool!

> All I need now is a new battery...

Maybe, maybe not.  Make sure it's topped off and give it a week or so.  
Not that they heal up but it might not be as weak as it seems.  A good 
cycling of charging and discharging sometimes works wonders.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 17:49:27 -0300
Subject: Re: Time to Dump?

On Mon, 20 May 1996, Andrew C. Green wrote:
> >Intake manifold gasket replaced 3 times (I know this is a defect)
> 
> Maybe the first time... but three replacements is a bit more than the
> other '86 Cutlasses are requiring. Were these all done by the same guy?

I saw a piece on a TV car repair show a while back about this very
problem.  The TV mechanic (errr... the car mechanic on the TV, sorry)
stated that this was a design defect with the Olds 307, due to bimetallic
corrosion (aluminum intake/iron heads I assume). Perhaps this is what was
being referred to. 

Joanne's litany of woes reminded me of the thing that got posted in our
office lunch room a while back, a bogus "missing dog" notice: beast had a
missing leg, eye, had lost his male dog-hood, and had suffered every
misfortune and indignity possible for a canine.  Answered to the name of
"Lucky". Sounds almost like Joanne's Cutlass. 

Sometimes you love these things in spite of logic. Just ask me about it 
sometime.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 17:39:37 -0300
Subject: Re: clatter

At 04:06 PM 5/20/96 -0300, you wrote:

>Last time I heard that, it was an EGR valve stuck closed. Can you test to


I don't think there is any kind of EGR on a '69 400...

I've been wrong before, though :)
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

 "I was put on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things;
    right now I'm so far behind, I'll never die"  --Calvin

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 17:00:29 -0300
Subject: Re: clatter 

>>Last time I heard that, it was an EGR valve stuck closed. Can you test to
>
>I don't think there is any kind of EGR on a '69 400...
>I've been wrong before, though :)

*Grrrr*  This is what happens when trying to follow too damn many threads
at the same time...   :-)

I believe it was unique to manual-shift, 2-bbl Cadillacs of that era. So there.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 18:05:48 -0300
Subject: Re: clatter

At 05:00 PM 5/20/96 -0300, you wrote:

>*Grrrr*  This is what happens when trying to follow too damn many threads
>at the same time...   :-)
>
>I believe it was unique to manual-shift, 2-bbl Cadillacs of that era. So there.

Yes, but only the *four wheel drive* models.
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

 "I was put on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things;
    right now I'm so far behind, I'll never die"  --Calvin

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 19:34:17 -0300
Subject: Drag Racing Champion Olds (was: items) 

          
> Drag Racing Champion Olds
>
> The ultra rare, 1970 Oldsmobile F85 W31 Sports Coupe that set a 1974
> World Drag Racing Record of 90.86 mph in 8.47 seconds is also now in the
                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^
dang, 8.47 seconds, but only 91 mph !!?!?! What happened? Broke a 
driveshaft halfway thru a 6-second run, probably, and coasted thru the 
lites... :)
          
          Uhhh...just a wild guess here....could that be an 
          eighth-mile drag racing record?  
          
          (REAL drag strips have 1320 ft! (that'd be 402 m for our 
          Canadian friends))
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30
          

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 19:55:51 -0300
Subject: Re: Time to Dump? 

Looking for opinions on whether it is time to dump my 86 olds cutlass = 
supreme coupe.

          If you want support for getting rid of it, this is probably 
          not the right place.
          
Its one of those 307s with a 4barrel that can't get out of its own way = 
because it has to much weight to slug around

          I still think the hot setup is a 455 painted corporate 
          blue...
          
Intake manifold gasket replaced 3 times (I know this is a defect) 
          
          See above for "easy" fix :)

Lower doors replaced twice cuz there were no drain holes (another = 
defect)
Patched frame behind the rear tires
Body work every spring for the past 4 years
Bad vibration in the rear which went away when drive shaft replaced. 
Annoying squeak from hell, when stopping or leaning on the front end of = 
the car which no one can seem to diagnose...

          I have to second the A-arm bushings.  While you're in there 
          rebuilding the front end, get the lowered front spindles from 
          Bell Tech...
          
New radiator
New fuel pump
A/C too expensive to replace
Cruise control doa
Power antenna doa, and looks like you need to remove the front body = 
panel to replace.

          Yeah...Better get the heater core while the fender's off
          
Weak rear springs (need to replace soon) 
Rotors from hell, constantly need turning

          Do you do a lot of stop-and-go driving?  I read once that this 
          gets the rotors hot, followed by holding the brake pads 
          tightly on the rotors at stop lights.  Thus, most of the rotor 
          will cool, except for the area under the pads...leads to rotor 
          warpage.
          
Linkage sticks open every once in a while, even though I keep it well = 
lubed, causing the accelorator to stick to the floor. I need to check = 
for a busted motor mount.

          Nooooooo.  I've always subscribed to the notion that one 
          should NOT lubricate throttle linkage, as this only causes the 
          underhood crud to adhere to the lubricant (turning it into a 
          slurry mixture, not unlike that used by the Extrude Hone 
          people).  Best bet is to just keed it clean using large 
          quantities of (insert name of favorite carb cleaner here).  My 
          bet is frayed cable, as suggested by another post.  This has 
          happened to me on both my 70 W-30 and my 85 Chevy truck.  This 
          is easy to check.  Just disconnect the cable from the carb 
          lever and try to pull the cable back and forth.  It should 
          move easily within the sheath.  If it does, the problem is 
          elsewhere (transmission kickdown linkage?); if it binds buy a 
          new cable.

I have always changed the oil every 3000 miles, always checking fluids, = 
always getting tuneups so I basically know what I have. Since my fuel = 
pump went, I am always carrying around extra oil, 

        I missed the connection between the fuel pump and oil...

since I had that = gasket defect, I am always carrying around 
water/anti-freeze, I carry = spare belts, I can't even see the bottom of 
my trunk anymore.
          
Anyway, the car looks great after all the body work is done, its nice an = 
big, the new ones blow, but, what is this car worth (kelley blue book = 
value) and are there any other surprises you know of that may be coming = 
down the pike? Thanks, Joanne

          Uhhhh... let me break this to you gently.... timing chain at 
          80K miles....
          
          
          I vote to keep it!
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30
          

------------------------------

From: bryce_smith@442.com (Bryceman)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 18:46:10 -0300
Subject: Cruiser 

Does anyone out there have a '65 Vista Cruiser?
If so, does it have the standard Cutlass/F85 style lug pattern 4.75"
diameter or the heavy duty 5" diameter bolt circle?


 EXCESSIVE IRON rules the road!
'65 442
'66 Dynamic 88 B07 Apprehender
 bryceman@442.com
 www.442.com

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 18:11:08 -0300
Subject: Re: Time to Dump? 

>Power antenna doa, and looks like you need to remove the front body = 
>panel to replace.
>
>          Yeah...Better get the heater core while the fender's off

Actually on this car the core lifts out the top of the evaporator housing.

>          Do you do a lot of stop-and-go driving?  I read once that this 
>          gets the rotors hot, followed by holding the brake pads 
>          tightly on the rotors at stop lights.  Thus, most of the rotor 
>          will cool, except for the area under the pads...leads to rotor 
>          warpage.

Yes, yes.
          
>>Linkage sticks open every once in a while, even though I keep it well = 
>>lubed, causing the accelorator to stick to the floor. I need to check = 
>>for a busted motor mount.
>
[...]
>My 
>          bet is frayed cable, as suggested by another post. 

Think that was me. Thinking about it... I don't see how a motor mount could
affect this, since both the cable core and cable stop are attached to the
carb and intake manifold respectively. The engine could move all over the
place without affecting the position of the cable with respect to the casing
(unless the engine block is pinching the entire cable somehow? Dunno how...)
I think it's a frayed cable core that's occasionally sticking inside its
casing, or as I said before, maybe something inside the car is jamming
either the pedal or the back end of the cable.

>          Uhhhh... let me break this to you gently.... timing chain at 
>          80K miles....

You mean, before 81,516.2 miles, Joe?  :-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 19:31:16 -0300
Subject: Re: Time to Dump? 

In a message dated 96-05-20 09:20:46 EDT, you write:

>Looking for opinions on whether it is time to dump my 86 olds cutlass
supreme
>coupe. 

Joanne,

You know my answer. Sell it and get yourself a nice 67 Toronado!  (:

Yes, even more weight to slug around, but more than enough motor to
compensate!

Greg

------------------------------

From: John Schmich <schmich@AZStarNet.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 20:49:22 -0300
Subject: Re: Time to Dump? 

At 05:49 PM 5/20/96 -0300, you wrote:
>On Mon, 20 May 1996, Andrew C. Green wrote:
>> >Intake manifold gasket replaced 3 times (I know this is a defect)
>> 
>> Maybe the first time... but three replacements is a bit more than the
>> other '86 Cutlasses are requiring. Were these all done by the same guy?
>
>I saw a piece on a TV car repair show a while back about this very
>problem.  The TV mechanic (errr... the car mechanic on the TV, sorry)
>stated that this was a design defect with the Olds 307, due to bimetallic
>corrosion (aluminum intake/iron heads I assume). Perhaps this is what was
>being referred to. 
>
>Joanne's litany of woes reminded me of the thing that got posted in our
>office lunch room a while back, a bogus "missing dog" notice: beast had a
>missing leg, eye, had lost his male dog-hood, and had suffered every
>misfortune and indignity possible for a canine.  Answered to the name of
>"Lucky". Sounds almost like Joanne's Cutlass. 
>
>Sometimes you love these things in spite of logic. Just ask me about it 
>sometime.
>
>Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
>
     Could this result in a very bad vaccum leak.  In other words, inabling
the gasket to work properly.  I'm asking this stupid question because I just
got another opinion about the problems I'm having with my 307 build up.  He
says that there might be a leak around the intake manifold (Edlebrock
performer).  Therefore losing 7 inches or vaccum and making the car run
badly.  Could this aluminum intake manifold on the stock heads be the
problem.  And if so, how do you fix it.
     My brother and I are going to see if there is a leak around the intake
by spraying carb cleaner at the edges.  He tells us that if you here a
difference in the idle, you've found your problem area.  Any other ideas how
to detect a leak.

Thanks 

Brandon 
86 Salon
Brodie
85 Salon

------------------------------

From: SG Hartfelder <stanh@compusmart.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 22:02:07 -0300
Subject: San Diego SR Show 

Hi!  I just returned from a 10 conference/vacation in San Diego yesterday
and wow, do they have great weather or what.  It was in the 70s and 80s all
week.  Don't get me wrong, it wasn't perfect, I did see a cloud on Thursday
afternoon for about an hour.  Anyway, I happened to have the afternoon of
Saturday, May 11 off and happened upon a Street Rod show :)  It was hosted
by the 'Over the Hill Gang' and had about 150-200 great cars.  Man, those
California guys really have the weather and roads to enjoy their cars year
round.  It show was VERY impressive.  So, now i'm back in Edmonton and of
course, it's rainy and cool.  Maybe, I'll get the Olds out next week.

Anyone out there happen to be at that street rod show on May 11?
***************
S.G. Hartfelder     stanh@compusmart.ab.ca     Edmonton, AB  CANADA
                    Owner:     '38 Oldsmobile Street Rod
               Pictures at:     http://www.cjnetworks.com/olds/hartfelder.html
***************

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 15:28:05 -0300
Subject: RE: Time to Dump?

At 09:27 AM 5/21/96 -0300, you wrote:
>Too late on the timing chain, I have 117,000 miles, am I pushing the envelope?
>
Yeah, I'd have it replaced for sure.
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

 "I was put on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things;
    right now I'm so far behind, I'll never die"  --Calvin

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #180
********************************

