
oldsmobile-digest          Tuesday, 30 April 1996       Volume 01 : Number 162


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Scott R Clark <mickeyd@selway.umt.edu>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 14:03:38 -0300
Subject: Re: Mysterious paper (broadcast sheet)

> >	I found a pair of thoes under the rotting seat in my '60.  I 
> >recognized a couple of the numbers from the vin and body tag, but most 
> >I'd never seen before.  When I wrote the Olds History Center, I 
> >included all that info, but unfortunatly they said they couldn't 
> >decipher them :(  Not really sure who could.  Any ideas?
> 
> Maybe they are interior trim codes, similar to what is located on the 
> fender tag.  Could you post the codes in question, along with the model 
> and model year (1960).  I have an old Oldsmobile parts catalog (c. 1961) 
> that lists a lot of these codes.

	Ok,I'll even make an attempt at ASCII here....


		---------------------------
		| o 4-190-10-5	         o |
		| o	2989	   	 o |
		| o	   837-71-604-642o |
		| o 			 o |
		| o			 o |
		|--------------------------|               

			And thats about how they look.  The 837 is body 
style code (I think) and the 71 is a trim code.  The others I don't 
know.  What do you think?
	
			Scott
		1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 14:42:17 -0300
Subject: Re: For a laugh

> From: Doug McClanahan <mcclan@wsdot.wa.gov>

> These are the two obnoxious NPR radio personalities that sound like they 
> are from Jersey.  They are always messin' with people that call in.  Some 
> one should write them with their olds problems to see what kind of 
> response they offer.  They are probably tired of hearing from those F*rd 
> guys who are always calling so I'm sure they will welcome an Olds 
> question.
> 

You are of course referring to the Marriazi (sp.?) brothers, aka 'Click and
Clack, the Tappet Brothers', of Car Talk fame.  Yes, they've been on NPR
since Noah was a boy... but they're not from NJ.   Sad to say, they're
a couple of Massachusetts boys... Cambridge to be exact.  One of them
in fact owns a garage in Harvard Sq.; the other holds a PHd. from MIT
in (I believe) mechanical engineering... they *do* know they're stuff, but
lately (i.e., the past 15 years or so :) ), most of the time they like
to hear themselves talk, and obnoxiously laugh, on the radio.

I work in Cambridge, 'bout a mile from their shop... mebbe I should pull up
in Big Red... :)



Tim Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'88 Cadillac Brougham, a.k.a. 'Big Blue' -- Olds 307 Powered!!
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 16:33:20 -0300
Subject: [none]

Greg, Robert, others,
A friend and I plan to drive up for the day, Saturday.  I would like to 
meet up with anyone from the list that will be there.  Grab a beer, tell 
some tales, etc.

I'll be wearing my "W machines on the www" shirt for easy identification!  
Hope to see a bunch of you guys (girls too) there!

David Brown                             (312) 702-9157
    "Oldsmobile - powerful roadsters with big V8s"
Send Olds FAQ request to: dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 14:34:08 -0300
Subject: Re: For a laugh 

>You are of course referring to the Marriazi (sp.?) brothers,

Tom and Ray Magliozzi

>Yes, they've been on NPR
>since Noah was a boy... but they're not from NJ.   Sad to say, they're
>a couple of Massachusetts boys... Cambridge to be exact.

Dunno about "sad to say"; I find them pretty funny, but I do kind of wish
they'd get to the point a bit quicker with each caller because they're
pretty interesting when they're actually trying to diagnose something,
plus they could fit in a few more callers each hour. This would make up 
for those airheads that call in just to ask what kind of car they should 
buy... IMHO, we're a lot more likely to get useful stuff from discussions
about car repairs than we are from discussions with some ding-a-ling who
blew up their last Honda and wants to buy something that can run without oil.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 16:18:31 -0300
Subject: Re: people on list; was Re: San Diego;  

In a message dated 96-04-26 16:34:28 EDT, you write:

>I was just wondering what type of people we have on the list?  I mean 
>like 
>1. total computer nerd
>2. total car nerd
>3. little of both
>4. lot of both

I was a #1 there for a while, but then turned toward #2. During my 8 years of
grad school, I worked on computers regularly, and couldn't afford to buy a
new one or pay someone to fix or upgrade mine, so I did it myself. When the
library I worked at went over to Netware 3.11, I was the only person on the
staff with enough knowledge, willingness and stupidity to offer to install
the thing (works great, though, even with minimal administration). I even
created a part-time consulting business to take care of the computers of the
academic and non-profit organizations I had come in contact with.

Gradually, I became disillusioned with advances and upgrades in both hardware
and software, so that now I am typing this on a 386/40 that I built from
scratch, with an NEC 2A monitor that someone was throwing out (focus was
off), on which I run WFW 3.11. That is all I need to work, and since I can't
afford to keep up with the technology curve, I have decided to not even try.
The computer is more of a tool for me now, which I suppose is how it should
always have been.

Car-wise, I've always been interested in how things worked, and transferred
my bicycle wrenching skills (customizing choppers with homemade sissy-bars)
to cars. I started out by venturing into removing the air cleaner and
flipping its lid on my mom's '77 Vista wagon (big deal at the time), though
where this interest comes from is a mystery to me, since nobody in my family
has any such interests.

In high-school, I was classed as a grease-monkey, since I actually worked on
my car. There were very few of us, since it was a college prep school, so we
hung out and bs'd about our cars in the lot during lunch. Working on cars was
more a matter of necessity; I couldn't afford to pay someone to do it, I had
the interest to do it myself, and nobody else was going to do it for me, so
if I wanted to drive, I had to do it myself. So I read and wrenched and made
(make) lots of mistakes, but learned as I went along.

I spent the last eight years earning my doctorate, during which there was
little time or money for working on cars. Now I'm teaching in the Theology
Dept. at Fordham University, and will move on to start teaching at Providence
College next fall (just found out this morning that I've got the job-
YES!!!). Most of my colleagues have taken vows of poverty, so they don't own
or work on cars. I don't bring up my hobby around work that much, and my wife
can only listen to so much car talk at one time, which is why this list is
such a release for me. 

I've owned all sorts of cars, but they all have one thing in common- they
were all cheap! I usually deal with family hand-me-downs or freebies that
people are going to have hauled off to the junkyard. My two daily drivers are
such cars: my 403-powered '78 Electra was a family car, and was to be hauled
off when I resurrected it- that's the car I"m building the 403 for. My '76
Monte was a friend's car that hadn't run in years, and had a bad tranny. I
changed the fluid and filter, and have driven into the Bronx for work over
the past two years.

It will soon be retired for the '69 Toro that I've bought for as near as free
as possible, as soon as that is up and running reliably, and will the Monte
will donate its rally rims for my project '70 SX, as well as a posi 3-series
rear carrier for the Electra's 10-bolt (which is now an open 2.41-yech!). I
had contemplated dropping its 350 into a smaller Ch*vy II or something, but
since the Toro came along, that plan has been shelved, and I'll probably sell
the 350/TH350 combo and invest that in the Toro. The '70 SX will be the
weekend car, so I'll probably make the engine a bit more radical; perhaps
swap its E-heads onto the Toro in exchange for its C-heads, and run a hot cam
and 3.73 rear gear.

Our family will then be 100% Olds powered, with two 455's and a 410ci small
block. The Electra and Toro will make great luxo-daily drivers, and be
suitable for long drives, while the SX will be a beach car. There's no real
race track around, so none of them will be built for all-out performance.

I'm not an Olds snob, and would drive a Ch*vy if someone gave me one, but I
wouldn't sell an Olds to do so, and I certainly wouldn't pay good money for
one. I like cars of all sorts, but gravitate more toward the underdogs in the
auto world.

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 16:18:35 -0300
Subject: IT'S ALIVE!!! (but hey! who's stepping on the brake?!?) 

Well, back from that 3-day weekend, and though I didn't get to do all I
planned (never make *me* project manager of anything!), I'm pleased with the
results:

* Friday, dark and rainy, so getting the Toro running is out of the question.
Pick up an Exide battery from BJ's Wholesale Club (thanks sis! -on her card)
for it though, and spend 10 minutes while clerk at Home Depot investigates
the differences between two washers I picked out of the same bin, just so she
can tell me one is $.04 and other is $.05, and do I still want them (all
while I hold back urge to strangle said clerk).

Finally, by about 10:30pm, I'm out in the garage tearing into the 403 with
the "spun bearing" I picked up last weekend. Pretty greasy and coked up in
the center of the valley (doesn't anyone ever change oil anymore?), but
nothing is apparently bent, though cyls 3 and 6 apparently were once used for
an aquarium (I'm boring it out anyway). Once I'm down to the shortblock, I
turn her over and start undoing the rods. Most bearings end up having a
non-standard "groove" somewhere on them, but the journals seem ok. EXCEPT the
first journal for cyls 1 & 2- the bearing doesn't pop out with the rod like
on the other journals, but stays attached since it is partway underneath the
*other* rod bearing (ick!). The journal itself is noticeably "textured", as a
result of someone having too much fun in the T/A this motor came out of. Oh
well, off to the shop to see what they say...

BTW, I'd like to have 10 minutes alone in a room with a tire iron and the
Olds engineer who decided the best place to save 10 lbs was by "windowing"
the mains on Olds 403 blocks! If you've ever seen medieval stained glass
tracery, where the frames of the glass are so thin that they are barely
noticeable, then you get an idea of what the bottom end of a 403 looks like.
Also reminiscent of the flying butresses on the Medieval cathedrals in
France. Anyway, looks like a *good* balancing is in order if this motor is
going to survive at 5000+ rpm.

*Saturday- Since I was tearing into the 403 until 4:00am the night before, I
get started on the Vista Cruiser a little late. Hoist out the 350 shortblock,
bolt on the engine-stand head, and maneuver it off the grass and onto
pavement. Strip the front clip of all misc bits, take off the doors, rear
seat, gas tank (would be good for storing fuel around the house), roof rack,
air deflector, and lighted rear-view mirror. Just about all that remains on
the shell is the paint and woodgrain. Stand back and admire the fact that
what just took me a few weekends, kids down in the Bronx accomplish in a 1/2
hour (maybe I should hire them out to do this work for me...).

Finally get to the non-sparking '69 Toro by mid-afternoon, after a run out to
the store for tools and ignition parts (for Toro) and pumps and a nice shirt
(my wife came along). Finally get back, hook up the battery, check out the
coil (resistances within spec), and decide to check the points before going
any further. I've bought a set of feeler gauges and a dwell adjusting tool
(how have l lived for so long without them?), so that is a snap. Actually, a
snap, crackle and a pop, since dad (who has been assigned "turn it over"
duty) hasn't taken the key out of the ignition! Well, at least the primary
system is functioning. Pump it, crank it, and after a little sputtering and
backfiring, lo and behold the BEAST IS ALIVE! Well, partially and on life
support, since it won't idle without the choke working. 

Once it is warmed up and running on its own recognizance, I get ambitious and
decide to take it for a spin down the street. That's the plan, anyway. A stab
at the brakes indicates that there is something stopping the car, but not
very well. Moving the shift lever is greeted with a solid *thunk* into
reverse and drive, so off we go. slowly. very slowly. Hmmm, engine revving,
car not moving proportionately, though it is moving. Stopping is even more
exciting; the pedal is hard, but the braking is not. At least it pulls
sharply to the left- add brakes to the list of to-do things.

Around the block and back at the ranch, I check tranny fluid- hmmm, try that
again, make sure the dipstick is seated, um, yup, there *isn't* anything on
that dipstick. Add a couple of quarts, get the fluid back on the dipstick,
but no more go than before. It's barely moving now, so we back it into the
driveway and shut her down for the night.

It's late, I'm tired, and my hands look like I've just returned from a day at
the piranha petting zoo. Nevertheless I spend all night perusing the shop
manual for the Toro. 

* Sunday, another run to the parts store for a tranny filter ($$$) and drain
plug kit ($-good investment, but get the Help! brand kit over the B&M plug,
which hangs down too far). Pull the pan, and discover that somebody has
mistakenly replaced the recommended Dextron fluid with what looks like
cherry-flavored milk. *Carefully* locate a place to install a drain plug,
reinstall, and fill with new fluid. Rebuild the carb, tighten the choke shaft
with a 3/16" bolt, and start her up. She is purring at high idle, but the
3/16" bolt is too long, so the choke is binding up; oh, well, add to the
list... 

Get her to idle, and take the wife for a ride. When I put it in drive, I'm
greeted with a solid *thunk*, so I press the gas pedal, the engine revs, but
the car doesn't move. :(  Wife is not too impressed. I notice, though, that
the engine is straining, not revving freely. I apply more gas, and we inch
forward, but it is clear that the brakes are sticking. Well, back her up and
close up shop, since it is starting to get dark.

So, the Toro is running but needs brakes and a tune-up. The Vista Cruiser is
being hauled off Monday morning. I didn't get to pull back the tarp on the SX
at all. My 403 is in pieces, waiting on a recommendation from a friend for a
good shop in southern Connecticut (any recommendations out there?). All in
all, not a bad weekend.

And it's nice to know that others out there are getting as dirty on the
weekend as I am. Do all your hands look 40 years older than you, or is it
just me?

- -Bob Barry, the '69-loving, '70 SX ignoring, 403-building guy.

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 16:11:23 -0300
Subject: Re: Online Meetings

At 12:55 AM 4/29/96 -0300, you wrote:
>Hi Folks....
>        
>        With all this talk of getting to know each other, I thought an
>online meeting would allow us to learn about each other more than anything
>else.  

OK, good idea!


>        I was thinking of having a meeting this Thursday (May 2nd), at 8:00
>PM EST with the possibility of this becoming a recurring event.  Any ideas
>on how often?


Weekly??


        If you are interested in this please let me know, and I will send
>you information on how to download and configure mIRC, and get on to a
>DALnet server.  

Yes, please send info...

Thanks!
- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 16:19:38 -0300
Subject: Resistors and Stalling

At 12:28 PM 4/29/96 -0300, you wrote:

>          The later cars (I'm not sure of the exact year) use a 
>          resistor wire in the harness instead of the ceramic unit.  
>          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

My car has had the resistor wire snipped halfway from the junction block,
and replaced with non-resistor wire.  I'm wondering if that could be some
of my problem with stalling??  Could I eliminate the resistor wire altogether
and put a resistor in line on that wire?  Will having lower or no resistance
to the coil with the engine running harm the coil or points?


          
>          If my feeble memory serves, this resistance is fairly low, 
>          like around 10 ohms.
                       ^^^^^^^

Does anybody know the correct resistance?

Thanks again...  
- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 17:54:53 -0300
Subject: Re: Resistors and Stalling 

My car has had the resistor wire snipped halfway from the junction block, 
and replaced with non-resistor wire.  I'm wondering if that could be some
of my problem with stalling?? 

        Only if the wire is poorly connected (ie intermittent break or 
        grounding)

Could I eliminate the resistor wire altogether and put a resistor in line on 
that wire?  

        Yes

Will having lower or no resistance to the coil with the engine running harm 
the coil or points?
          
          I believe this will cause the points to burn out faster, but 
          the car should otherwise run fine.
          
          
Does anybody know the correct resistance?
          
          I think most of the aftermarket units (like the ones that 
          come will an Accel coil) are about the same.  I'd be willing 
          to bet that the actual value is not critical.  Unfortunately 
          my factory manual is at home and I'm at the office, which is 
          why I couldn't provide the number earlier.  I've used the 
          aftermarket units with no problems.
          
          I assume this post means that dropping the tank didn't solve 
          the problem?  Sorry to put you through that.
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 16:53:12 -0300
Subject: Stalling (again!)

OK, now I'm really starting to get frustrated.  Here's a few more 
observations:

1) Sometimes when the car stalls, it will cough and sputter and knock 
   for a few seconds, and occasionally die with one final surge (I call 
   it "THE BIG SIGH").  Sometimes it just quits without all that stuff.  
2) After The Big Sigh, it usually doesn't start right away, it takes  
   several seconds of cranking for it to restart.
3) During the coughing and sputtering and knocking, the tachometer is 
   still showing engine rpm's (The Big Sigh usually being a surge to about
   1800 rpm).  When the tach finally stops moving is the only way I know 
   when the engine dies when I'm going down the highway at 70 mph. With all
   the road noise, I can't hear the engine.  Does that mean the coil and it's
   wiring is probably OK?  If there was a short to the coil, I wouldn't think
   the tach would work, but I don't know...
4) If there is coughing, etc., and no Big Sigh, the engine will restart
   right away.
5) Once today, the engine quit, I quickly put it in neutral, and then it 
   backfired (quite loudly!, the muffler is all puffed out now), and 
   started running again.
6) Today and yesterday a couple times it cut out for just a second and came
   right back, like nothing happened.

I've dropped the tank and checked it, changed the fuel filters, checked the
wiring (I'll recheck that again...), checked the fuel pump (no leaks, I can
still accelerate at a great rate!), uh let's see, what else...replaced all
the rubber fuel lines, I think that's all.  I think I'm going to take the
coil back to Pep Boys, it's a new (<2 months old) Accel Super Stock, but maybe
the windings are going bad (I'm not sure about that resistor wire thingy,
and how it affects coil/points life).  All the other components of the ignition 
are less than three months old (points, plugs, wires, cap, rotor, etc.)

The only things left are carburetor problems, replace fuel pump, recheck
ignition wiring, and the coil (I think that's all).  Any other ideas?  What
about that resistor wire to the coil?  Will things still work OK if it's 
not a resistor wire (about half of it is resistor)?

Thanks again for the help!
- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme (cough,
hack,
dpauliso@metrolink.net
wheeze...)                                                 

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 17:18:22 -0300
Subject: Buick TH400's 

A member of our group has asked about Buick TH400's and their compatability
with Olds engines.

Buick, Olds, Pontiac and most Cadillac engines use the same bolt pattern.  An
easier way to put it is that Chubby transmissions will not bolt up
completely.  The 2 top bolt up locations differ.  There were some universal
cases cast but they are quite rare.  Adapter plates are available but with so
many BOP/Cad transmissions out there, why bother?

In general, as long as the same tail shaft length is used, any BOP/Cad trans
should bolt in.  Also, make sure your speedometer will connect since some
cars ran the speedometer off one of the front wheels.  The much more common
transmission connection will work in either car asuming you use the correct
speedo gears as needed.

If the TH400 is from a 65-67 Buick, Olds or Caddy, it will be a variable
pitch model,   unless the trans was replaced by a fixed stator model.  The
worst that could happen if a swtich pitch were installed in a car with no
provision for one is that the trans will be in the low stall or "tight"
position at all times.  Vice versa, if there is nothing to control in the
trans it doesn't matter either since there will be no provision to hook up
the electrical control.

One other potential problem is to make sure you use the right output yoke.
 Some have a hole in the plate at the base while others are sealed.  The ones
with the opening use an O-ring on the output tail shaft.  You will get quite
a leak if you use the open yoke and there is no O-ring inside the housing on
the tail shaft.  Just make sure the yoke on your driveshaft matches the one
on the car donating the trans.  If possible try to get the donating cars
output yoke to make sure.  

Just remember you don't want to scramble your yokes. ;-) Yuk! Yuk!

Having a spare is good idea anyway to replace one which has a groove in it
and won't seal or as a plug when pulling a tranny out of a car.

Hope this answers the Buick TH400 question.

Bob Handren
'67 W-30 Modified
'70 Cutlass SX Convertible

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 16:16:59 -0300
Subject: Re: Stalling (again!) 

>2) After The Big Sigh, it usually doesn't start right away, it takes  
>   several seconds of cranking for it to restart.
[...]
>4) If there is coughing, etc., and no Big Sigh, the engine will restart
>   right away.
>5) Once today, the engine quit, I quickly put it in neutral, and then it 
>   backfired (quite loudly!, the muffler is all puffed out now), and 
>   started running again.

This must be ignition- or timing-related. Don't know what The Big Sigh
signifies other than maybe your timing is wandering into the Just Right
zone and you're getting one large surge of power, but in any event you
should copyright "The Big Sigh" for the next time Hollywood wants to
make another 1940s or 50s Raymond Chandler movie...

Actually, come to think of it, the Big Sigh may be a cylinder backfire
into the intake manifold through a barely-open valve, which would swamp
the intake with exhaust gases and smother the engine until you've cranked
it all through to the exhaust and got some fresh mixture into the engine
to restart with.

Your "backfire" which puffed out the muffler wasn't really a backfire.
Your ignition went away on you but the engine kept on spinning. Being the
terrific air pump that it is, it proceeded to fill your exhaust system
with unburnt gas and air mixture, and when your ignition system came back
to life seconds later, a stray spark or partially-open valve allowed the
entire system to ignite. Sort of an "afterfire." Bet your ears were ringing!

How about checking your distributor plate, vacuum advance and basic timing?
Our old '72 LeMans had a problem once where the pigtail lead to the points
broke from flexing, and as the breaker plate rotated during acceleration,
it would occasionally cut in and out. It was a break in the wires _inside_
the insulation, so it wasn't discovered until some really thorough guy (not
me) tested its continuity while turning the breaker plate by hand.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 17:29:38 -0300
Subject: Re: Resistors and Stalling

I seem to recall that the resistance value of the resistor wire in the 
harness is rather low. The number 1.7 ohms sticks in my head for some 
reason. Without resistance you will burn points more quickly.

The new evidence that the harness on your car has been altered in the 
past would lead me to suspect ignition wiring problems more than fuel. 
Aside from the feed (resistor) wire to the coil - the one with the splice - 
did you check the primary lead (lo-voltage wire from the negative side of 
the coil to the distributor)? If these get hot the insulation can melt 
and result in a short to the block that it usually rests upon. But with 
the evidence that the car will immediately restart I'd suspect the feed 
wire to the coil.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 18:27:39 -0300
Subject: Re: Stalling (again!) 

          (I call it "THE BIG SIGH")
          
          BINGO!  Definitely a carb problem (of course, you've already 
          eliminated all other options).  Sounds like the carb is 
          flooding, in which case I would have someone follow you and 
          look for black smoke just prior to the stalling (car running 
          very rich).  The unburned fuel pooling in the muffler would 
          cause the backfire.  
          
          I actually had this problem recently with my 70 W-30.  If 
          you haven't had the carb apart recently, you should rebuild 
          it immediately.  The additives in today's gasoline are very 
          corrosive and will attack the float (if you are still using 
          the factory plastic float) as well as the pot metal carb 
          body.  I have found that the inside of the fuel inlet 
          fitting on my Q-Jet is actually corroding, resulting in crap 
          floating around, holding the needle off the seat, and 
          causing the carb to flood.  This debris will migrate in and 
          out of the needle and seat, causing this intermittent 
          problem.  On my car it was pretty obvious, as fuel came 
          pouring out of every vent on the top of the carb.
          
          The other choice is the infamous leaking plugs on the bottom 
          of the main body (I'm assuming we're talking about a Q-Jet 
          here, otherwise ignore this paragraph).  The little sponge 
          "seal" included in most carb kits is worthless if the plugs 
          are really leaking.  Jiffy and others make replacement 
          aluminum plugs with o-ring seals which very effectively 
          solve the problem.
          
          Given the validity of my previous suggestion, I wouldn't 
          blame you for being skeptical.  Good luck!
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 17:43:17 -0300
Subject: Dave's Problem - Fixed!

Dave, I've been looking at all of the suggestions here today re. your 
stalling problem and I think I've got it figured out. All you have to do 
is replace the coil, wiring harness, distributor, timing set and carb and 
your problem will be solved. 

;-)

I'm surprised that the ignition switch hasn't been brought under scrutiny 
yet...

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 17:55:39 -0300
Subject: Fuse Block Question

Quick question... is the "BATT" terminal on the fuse block protected by 
one of the fuses? I hooked up some underdash courtesy lights over the 
weekend and used that terminal for the driver's side one, since it was 
the only thing I could find on that side of the underdash area that was 
hot with the key off. But after I did it I started to wonder how wise 
that was.

I was surprised how easy the job was, BTW. The door jamb switches are 
grounded with the door open, completing the courtesy light circuit. All 
you need are a 2-wire lamp socket and to attach the ground side to the 
jamb switch, and the other side to power. Since there is a ground wire 
that connects the switches, opening either door turns on all the lights. 
Neat, simple, but something I never knew before. It was a bonus that the 
lights I picked up at a parts jobber for $1.99 each fit perfectly into 
the two punched holes on the underside of the dash, requiring no drilling 
at all.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 17:56:15 -0300
Subject: Re: Dave's Problem - Fixed!

At 05:43 PM 4/29/96 -0300, you wrote:
>
>Dave, I've been looking at all of the suggestions here today re. your 
>stalling problem and I think I've got it figured out. All you have to do 
>is replace the coil, wiring harness, distributor, timing set and carb and 
>your problem will be solved. 
>


Now, there's an idea...


>
>I'm surprised that the ignition switch hasn't been brought under scrutiny 
>yet...


Didn't really think about it...never crossed my mind.  S'pose it could be 
the ignition switch.

Thanks.
- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net                        (cough, hack, wheeze...)

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 18:05:50 -0300
Subject: Re: Stalling (again!)

At 04:16 PM 4/29/96 -0300, you wrote:

>This must be ignition- or timing-related. Don't know what The Big Sigh
>signifies other than maybe your timing is wandering into the Just Right
>zone and you're getting one large surge of power, 

That's the direction I'm leaning...ignition or timing (though I'm suspicious
of the carburetor)


>Actually, come to think of it, the Big Sigh may be a cylinder backfire
>into the intake manifold through a barely-open valve, which would swamp
>the intake with exhaust gases and smother the engine until you've cranked
>it all through to the exhaust and got some fresh mixture into the engine
>to restart with.

Makes sense to me...


>Your "backfire" which puffed out the muffler wasn't really a backfire.
>Your ignition went away on you but the engine kept on spinning. Being the
>terrific air pump that it is, it proceeded to fill your exhaust system
>with unburnt gas and air mixture, and when your ignition system came back
>to life seconds later, a stray spark or partially-open valve allowed the
>entire system to ignite. Sort of an "afterfire." 


That was my theory, it seems to fit.


>Bet your ears were ringing!


Huh?  I couldn't quite hear you... ;^)


>How about checking your distributor plate, vacuum advance and basic timing?
>Our old '72 LeMans had a problem once where the pigtail lead to the points
>broke from flexing,                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^ 

It's just been replaced (on Saturday...)

- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net                        (cough, hack, wheeze...)

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 18:07:13 -0300
Subject: Re: Stalling (again!)

At 06:27 PM 4/29/96 -0300, you wrote:
            The additives in today's gasoline are very 
>          corrosive and will attack the float (if you are still using 
>          the factory plastic float) as well as the pot metal carb 
>          body.  

Are brass floats available?  Where?

- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net                        (cough, hack, wheeze...)

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 17:15:24 -0300
Subject: Re: Fuse Block Question 

>Quick question... is the "BATT" terminal on the fuse block protected by 
>one of the fuses?

I _think_ so. You might try pulling the fuse closest to that port (or the
fuse labeled CLOCK/COURTESY or similar) and see if your light goes dead.
I'm pretty sure it is a protected port.

>I hooked up some underdash courtesy lights over the 
>weekend and used that terminal for the driver's side one, since it was 
>the only thing I could find on that side of the underdash area that was 
>hot with the key off.

Any orange wire will fit that definition.

>It was a bonus that the 
>lights I picked up at a parts jobber for $1.99 each fit perfectly into 
>the two punched holes on the underside of the dash, requiring no drilling 
>at all.

Yup. I assume those holes _were_ for the courtesy lights that your car was
not originally ordered with, but somewhere under the dash you'll probably
find the harness connectors for the lights -- 2-wire connectors with an
orange (always hot) wire and a white (switched ground) wire.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 17:09:58 -0300
Subject: Re: Swap Meet Report and other stuff

Pat Clark 952-3776 wrote:
> 
> Is it just me or is there some type of sickness going around that makes
> whoever owns the car believe it is made of gold?

Yeah, I just love the 70s 4-doors and the 70s Toyotas (:o) under 
"Antique and Classic Cars" in the newspaper.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 19:31:29 -0300
Subject: Re: Stalling (again!) 

In a message dated 96-04-29 16:05:56 EDT, you write:

>5) Once today, the engine quit, I quickly put it in neutral, and then it 
>   backfired (quite loudly!, the muffler is all puffed out now), and 
>   started running again.

That backfire makes me very suspicious that it is electrical.  That is
intermittent voltage to the system.  Turning the ignition on and off was a
frequent passtime in my youth.  This lead to contests over who could blow out
whose parents car muffler first.  The backfire was caused by unfired air/fuel
mixture ignited when the ignition came back on with an exhaust valve was
open.

Have you checked the distributor wires, in particular the one running into
the distributor body?  I had one where the insulation had broken and there
was an intermittent ground.  It was invisible until I pulled the distributor
out of the engine.

If you "hot wired" the system that should isolate the problem to the coil &
distributor.  To really isolate the system, disconnect the feed from the
chassis harness.  Connect only the wire running from the battery.  If you
still have the problem it can only be in the coil and or distributor. If it
disappears you may have an intermittent ground in the car's wiring.

Another distributor problem could be worn bushings.  Check side play on the
shaft.  One way is to hook up a dwell meter and watch the dwell with and
without vacuum advance, also at different rpms.  The dwell should not change
more than a couple degrees.

I assume you replaced the condenser in the distributor already.

Bob Handren
'67 W-30 Modified
'70 Cutlass SX Convertible

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 20:51:05 -0300
Subject: Re: Computer Control problems? 

This is no solution on the order of not replacing the cam, but what about a Comp
U Cam from Comp Cams?

There are a couple of web sites for performance chip companies.  This might be 
the way to go.

No expert here, but if the two dimples were lined up when you installed the 
timing chain, and then after you manually turned the crank 2 rotations, I think 
cam timing is not your problem.  Correct me here, but I think it would run worse
than it is now.

David Brown                             (312) 702-9157
    "Oldsmobile - powerful roadsters with big V8s"
Send Olds FAQ request to: dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 20:24:17 -0300
Subject: Re: IT'S ALIVE!!! (but hey! who's stepping on the brake?!?) 

Bob069,

I know the feeling, fix one problem get three more..etc.

The brakes may not be as daunting as you might think. The way it sounds, you
never pulled the drums to inspect things in there!!!!  My guess is you have
sticky or weak release springs on the shoe....the shoes are dragging...or the
wheel cylinder is stuck. Either way its fixable, at least you can make it
better. 

Heres whatchya do.   BE CAREFUL THOUGH!  (Extinguish all smoking materials
and remove sources of flame or spark)  (also have a big pail of water handy
and dry chem extinguisher ...just in case,,,,,,,,,I have done this dozens of
times without incident though...be safe just the same)  Pull the brake drum
and place a large fairly shallow pan underneath. Take and put about a quart
of gas in a coffee can. Liberally wash EVERTHING, including shoes with a
stiff brush. "Do the shoes last as to get a clean final wash..with fresh gas
too! The gas will disolve all the crud out of there! If you have an air hose,
then blow out all the excess gas and crap! After everything is dry, take some
Lock-Ease (Never Sieze) what ever......and hit all the pivot points
(especially that hard to reach spot where the side (edge) of the shoe rubs on
the backing plate). Also, lightly sand with about 120 grit...the shoes and
the inside of the drum. Just enough to scuff them up and remove the glazing,
if any. If this problem persists, its time for new return springs and
probably new wheel cylinders. Hard to tell from here without my X-ray vision
working..... unfortunately,  there seems to be a natural vein of Krypton
nearby.  Since you should have that in the kit you bought anyway, everything
should be ok!

Good Luck, We are all pulling for ya (dragging our feet like Fred Flinstone
too!)

Get back to me as the project unfolds!

Greg Kalkhoff  (T-Toro) 

------------------------------

From: ggreen@ftn.net (Gary Green)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 20:34:00 -0300
Subject: Re: Stalling (again!) 

Have no idea if this is applicable to your ignition system, but I had an
ignition problem with my old clunker that was a beast to track down.  The
post that the ignigion wire connects to was insulated from the distributor
with a small insulating gromett.  The grommet was broken and the post was
grounding out to the edge of the distributor intermittently.
Try a meter reading from the post to ground with the points open, and then
try wiggling the post to see if it will ground out.  Long shot, but it
sounds like you're getting desperate.
Gary Green
92 Delta 88,  85 Toronado,  Old Clunker,

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 23:47:12 -0300
Subject: Re: Fuse Block Question

Greg Beaulieu wrote:
> 
> Quick question... is the "BATT" terminal on the fuse block protected by
> one of the fuses?

No.  If you hook something up direct to the battery and are concerned 
about smoking something, simply put an in-line fuse holder from the 
battery hot in series with the load.  You can estimate the fuse size by 
comparing it to the ratings of the other fuses in the car with similar 
loads.  No big mystery here, if it blows a 2 amp fuse, try a 3 amp.  If a 
short did occur, you would be blowing any fuse.  BTW, the voltage rating 
of a fuse is its "arc over" rating and not significant in a 12 (or 13.5) 
volt car.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 20:41:42 -0300
Subject: stalling fixed!! (finally!)

OMIGOD!  I've finally fixed it!  I'm so happy I could just...well...I don't
know!  Thanks to all you folks for the help, info, and suggestions.  It was
the little wire that connects the breaker plate to ground inside the
distributor (thanks Andrew Green!)  It was broken right where it was crimped
to the terminal on the plate.  I overlooked it when I rewired all that stuff
(boy, do I feel dumb...)  It runs great!  Thanks again, guys!  :^)

- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: jblair@nhr.com (John T. Blair)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 21:04:10 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds Cam Specs 1964-77 

>At 10:36 AM 4/27/96 -0300, you wrote:
>>
>>Here's the chart produced by Karl Sarpolis that was originally printed in 
>>the Feb./95 issue of JWO. All credit is his.
>>
>>Olds Camshaft Specifications 1964-1977
>>======================================
>>
>>Year Part #    Ovlp Duration  Lift      Application
>>               ^^^^
>
>
>What does Ovlp stand for and what do the numbers in that column mean?  >
>Thanks...
>
OVLP means overlap. This is the ammount of time in the rotation sequence that the intake and the exhaust valve are open at the same time.

Jim Chermack 



John T. Blair  WA4OHZ          email:  jblair@nhr.com
Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (804) 495-8229

48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget  65 Morgan 4/4 Series V
     75 Bricklin SV1   77 Spitfire

The one with the most toys, wins!

------------------------------

From: jblair@nhr.com (John T. Blair)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 21:04:25 -0300
Subject: Re: Cam Question 

>At 10:36 AM 4/27/96 -0300, you wrote:
>>     402194    82   308/308   .474/.474 350 W-31 OAI
>
>>     400084    36   250/264   .400/.400 350 ex. OAI
>
>
>>From what I can tell on this chart, my 69 Cutlass has cam #400084 in
>it...how much more rump-rumpity is a cam cut like #402194?  Could I get one
>similar to it today?
>
>Thanks..  

Unless you have a stick transmission and ALOT of rear gear in the car don't even attempt to put that cam in your 350. YOU WILL REGRET IT!

Jim Chermack




John T. Blair  WA4OHZ          email:  jblair@nhr.com
Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (804) 495-8229

48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget  65 Morgan 4/4 Series V
     75 Bricklin SV1   77 Spitfire

The one with the most toys, wins!

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 21:17:36 -0300
Subject: Re: Cam Question

At 09:04 PM 4/29/96 -0300, you wrote:

>Unless you have a stick transmission and ALOT of rear gear in the car don't
even attempt to put that cam in your 350. YOU WILL REGRET IT!
>
>Jim Chermack
>
OK...just curious.
- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 22:36:20 -0300
Subject: 307 

was there an Olds 307 V8 offered with TBI?  just asking
                    zack
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\ "That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
 *************

------------------------------

From: OLDSPWR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 23:29:46 -0300
Subject: Re: More on Flowmasters... 

In a message dated 96-04-27 09:54:04 EDT, you write:

>>First of all, Flowmaster makes two different style mufflers, 2 and 3
>>chambers.  Since they use chambers to convert sound energy to heat energy,
2
>>chambers are alot louder than 3 chambers.
>
>
>Sorry to say, somebody sold you a bad bill of goods in the 
>aforementioned... In sentence #2, both statements are untrue...
>
First of all, that piece of mail was not supposed to be sent.  Some how good
'ol AOL saved it and sent it at a much later date....


So here I go to try to save my butt...
I might be incorrect about converting sound energy to heat energy, but the
original literature from FlowMaster states :
   "Due to the efficiency of FLOWMASTER mufflers, the extreme heat generated
under the hood is GREATLY REDUCED, increasing the service life of many
components (rubber hoses, belts, plastic parts and exhaust manifolds, etc.).

     In the process of lowering the underhood temperature the exhaust system
may in come cases be subject to increased heat.  The FlowMaster system is
capable of handling this but it is important to install the muffler under the
stock heat shield..."

OK.... so alot of heat is present....


Second of all, according to the original book straight from FlowMaster, two
chambers are for racing applications and 3 chambers are for street
applications.  How do I know?  I called them when I was sent the wrong
mufflers (2 chambers) and the car became extremely loud.  BUT.... I know that
the 2 chambers are relatively quiet on a late model Mustang, but I won't even
get in to the F**d word...... 

Sorry for the confusion, Tom Millard OLDSPWR@aol.com

------------------------------

From: Jeff Hunter <jchunter@xcelco.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 23:29:18 -0300
Subject: IRC meeting... 

>Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 18:59:45
>To: oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.net
>From: Jeff Hunter <jchunter@xcelco.on.ca>
>Subject: IRC meeting...
>
>Hi everyone....
>
>Decided to post this to the entire group, as interest in the meeting was
overwhelming.  I have tried to come up with some easy-to-understand
directions, but I am not sure if they will be followable. :)
>
>Anyways, if you plan to connect, the first thing you will need to do is get
an IRC client.  The best is probably mIRC.  It can be found under 'IRC
clients' on Strouds App List (www.hookup.net/cwsapps).  Once you have it
downloaded, you will need to unZIP it, I hope you know how to do this, cause
I sure ain't explaining it.  Both 16 and 32 bit versions are found in the
archive file at Strouds.
>
>Once you have it downloaded and unzipped, you will need to go into the
directory where you have unzipped it to, and run the file mirc.exe (or
mirc32.exe for 32 bit version).
>
>This should bring up the program. Before you connect to a server, you will
need to configure mIRC.  The default values should be good for most things,
you will need to experiment on your own, to see what you like.  However, you
will need to enter your name, email address, etc. You will also need to
choose a nickname, up to thirty characters in length.
>
>At this point, you should be ready to connect to a server. To do this, type:
>
>        /server *
>
>Where * is replaced with one of the following:
>
>irc.dal.net
>cin.dal.net
>davis.dal.net
>toronto.dal.net
>phoenix.dal.net
>megasoft.dal.net
>igc.dal.net
>
>So, to connect to toronto.dal.net, you would type:
>
>        /server toronto.dal.net
>
>Hopefully, you will by now be connected. All you then need to do is type:
>
>        /join #oldsmobile
>
>=============================
>
>The Oldsmobile mailing list 'online meeting' will be held
>Thursday, May 2nd, 1996, at 8:00 PM EST.
>
>Most people have recommended that this be held every week. 
>Is Thursday OK with everyone?
>
>=============================
>
>If you have any questions whatsoever, feel free to E-mail me.
>
>Thanks
>Jeff Hunter
>jchunter@xcelco.on.ca
>
       _/       _/    _/_/_/_/_/   _/_/       _/_/   Jeff Hunter
      _/       _/    _/           _/ _/     _/ _/    
     _/       _/    _/           _/   _/  _/  _/     Hunter's Flea Market
    _/ _/_/_/_/    _/_/_/_/_/   _/     _/    _/      P.O. Box #44
   _/       _/    _/           _/           _/       Camlachie,
  _/       _/    _/           _/           _/        Ontario, Canada
 _/       _/    _/           _/           _/         N0N 1J0

------------------------------

From: "Shawn M. Twomey" <stwom@ctp.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 23:37:54 -0300
Subject: Meeting Chris W., etc. 

Well, living in Lansing has its priveleges, as I was able to meet our
resident Rocket Scientist Chris Witt Sunday night, and yes he is definitely
as cool in person as terminal to terminal.  My dad, little brother, & I
stopped by to purchase a buildable 350 for my '85 442.

Speaking of which, I'm planning to use a fairly hot cam AND hook the
computer back up, so Brandon & Brody-please keep us up to date on the
problems you've been having.  I've heard of vacuum reserve canisters you can
buy & install, is this a viable option?

Problem/Question:  the lock-up torque converter on the 200R4 isn't working
properly.  Whenever I start the car, no problem, but without fail after one
or two minutes driving around the check engine light comes on, and I'm
pretty sure this is related to the converter not locking up.  Usually, the
light stays lit once it comes on, but one day I was driving at highway speed
for a long time...the converter seemed to be locked up, the light would come
on at exactly the same time as I pick up 400-500 or so RPMs....then I lose
the extra RPMs, and a few seconds later, no light.  The car doesn't need to
be in lockup conditions to get the light-it always comes on like I said a
few minutes after being started even beating around the city-but whenever
the light is on, no lock-up on the highway.  Is it likely a hardware problem
with the converter or a computer/switch problem?  Any advice is greatly
appreciated.

Thanks,

__________________________________________________________________________
Shawn M. Twomey     |  "No!  Try NOT!  Do, or do not.  There is no try."
stwom@ctp.com       |  -Yoda
__________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 00:05:05 -0300
Subject: Re: More on Flowmasters... 

At 23.29 04,29,96 -0300, you wrote:
>In a message dated 96-04-27 09:54:04 EDT, you write:
>
>>>First of all, Flowmaster makes two different style mufflers, 2 and 3
>>>chambers.  Since they use chambers to convert sound energy to heat energy,
>2
>>>chambers are alot louder than 3 chambers.
>>
>>
>>Sorry to say, somebody sold you a bad bill of goods in the 
>>aforementioned... In sentence #2, both statements are untrue...
>>
>First of all, that piece of mail was not supposed to be sent.  Some how good
>'ol AOL saved it and sent it at a much later date....

i'm not on AOL but ive had some weird stuff going on...this is off subject
so stop reading if you dont like it...my Internet provider has sent me
messages from about 6 months ago...and i had recieved them before!!!
                    Zack
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\ "That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
 *************

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 00:08:09 -0300
Subject: Re: IRC meeting... 

At 23.29 04,29,96 -0300, you wrote:
>>Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 18:59:45
>>To: oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.net
>>From: Jeff Hunter <jchunter@xcelco.on.ca>
>>Subject: IRC meeting...
>>
>>Hi everyone....
>>
>>Decided to post this to the entire group, as interest in the meeting was
>overwhelming.  I have tried to come up with some easy-to-understand
>directions, but I am not sure if they will be followable. :)

i'll be there as Wizzo...
               zack
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\ "That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
 *************

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 00:08:48 -0300
Subject: Re: IT'S ALIVE!!! (but hey! who's stepping on the brake?!?) 

In a message dated 96-04-29 19:34:24 EDT, you write:

>Bob069,
>
>I know the feeling, fix one problem get three more..etc.
>
>The brakes may not be as daunting as you might think. The way it sounds, you
>never pulled the drums to inspect things in there!!!!  My guess is you have
>sticky or weak release springs on the shoe....the shoes are dragging...or
the
>wheel cylinder is stuck. Either way its fixable, at least you can make it
>better. 

I'm quite certain it is the shoes dragging, since it is much worse in drive
than reverse, where the brakes are not as efficient (trailing shoe becomes
leading, and vice-versa).

Actually, one of the first things on my list was check the drums and linings.
The drums pulled off pretty easily, and I exhausted a 1/2 can of Brake-Kleen
on each wheel (2 cans total!$!$) in getting the hardware clean. The shoes
move freely and the springs still spring, so I'm suspecting wheel cylinders.
Anyway, original cylinders, hoses and hardware on a 26-yr old car are not
worth trusting, so I'm going with the Kanter kit for now, and hoping they
have riveted shoes on the shelf to send me. If not, I'll install what they
send, and keep searching for the riveted ones, and have them arched when I
get them (and find a shop that will do it). The current shoes are bonded and
have cracked, and the drums are scored so they need turning anyway.

On the 1960 Catalina I used a Kanter kit on before (in 1987; same price, in
fact, as their kit now!), the brakes hadn't been touched, and the car only
had 17,000 (no typo) miles on it. When I took the old cylinders out, though,
the wheel cylinders were filled with what looked like strawberry yogurt! I
can't believe I trusted those things to stop the car (and the drums were half
the width of the Toro)! So the Toro gets new cylinders, hardware, hoses and
shoes, and a replacement of any brake line that is suspect or that twists off
with the flare nut.

Have you had many bad experiences with bonded shoes? (sounds like this is the
case) Where did you get those shoes from?

Lets hope the tranny works fine once this is all done! Then I get to work on
the Comfortron... {:^(

- -Bob069Toro70SX0Barry

------------------------------

From: Mike Hall <mikehal1@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 20:16:04 -0300
Subject: What's she worth?

Well,

It's time to say goodbye to a good friend...

My Cutlass is up For Sale as last years calamities at the house is 
starting to take their toll. After a new roof, furnace and water softener 
soaked 12 grand out of our budget last year (unplanned, I might add), I 
need to liquidate an asset to get the budget back on track.

The big question, considering the modifications and condition, opinions 
on a asking price from the group here would be most helpful. For those 
who haven't seen it, the car is on the Bryceman's web page for an 
in-depth look.

With no great surprise, my significant other is totally against selling 
the car. She knows what my Oldsmobiles mean to me and how hard I work to 
afford the things we have, including my toys. I know, I know, I am very 
fortunate to have a wife who has thoughts and attitudes such as these. I 
know that there are a more than a few of you out there in CyberSpace who 
are envious and a few who can totally relate... To you single guys, yes, 
there are gals out there who are "OK" with us gearhead types. Choose your 
mates wisely, give her a good living and you will receive like in return.

Good Evening,
Mike


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Michael R. Hall                            Ortonville, Michigan
E-Mail: mikehal1@ix.netcom.com
Owner: 1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass S, 380 horses of pure Mondello fun...
Owner: 1991 Oldsmobile Eighty-Eight Royale Broughm, the classy one...
Owner: 1994 GMC Sonoma Club Coupe SLS Pickup.
         Brought to you by a Apple Power Macintosh 7100/80
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 00:57:31 -0300
Subject: Re: IT'S ALIVE!!! (but hey! who's stepping on the brake?!?) 

At 00.08 04,30,96 -0300, you wrote:
>In a message dated 96-04-29 19:34:24 EDT, you write:
>
>>Bob069,
>>
>>I know the feeling, fix one problem get three more..etc.
>>
>>The brakes may not be as daunting as you might think. The way it sounds, you
>>never pulled the drums to inspect things in there!!!!  My guess is you have
>>sticky or weak release springs on the shoe....the shoes are dragging...or
>the
>>wheel cylinder is stuck. Either way its fixable, at least you can make it
>>better. 
>
>I'm quite certain it is the shoes dragging, since it is much worse in drive
>than reverse, where the brakes are not as efficient (trailing shoe becomes
>leading, and vice-versa).
>
>Actually, one of the first things on my list was check the drums and linings.
>The drums pulled off pretty easily, and I exhausted a 1/2 can of Brake-Kleen
>on each wheel (2 cans total!$!$) in getting the hardware clean. The shoes
>move freely and the springs still spring, so I'm suspecting wheel cylinders.
>Anyway, original cylinders, hoses and hardware on a 26-yr old car are not
>worth trusting, so I'm going with the Kanter kit for now, and hoping they

anyone know of a rear wheel disc brake conversion for the GM 10 bolt rear?
bravada needs it
                         Zack
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\ "That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
 *************

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 01:50:01 -0300
Subject: Head swapping: Toro C's onto SX, its E's on the Toro? 

Of the two 455's I have, the one in my '70 SX will be a more radical street
motor, and the other in my '69 Toro will be a smooth-cruiser type. Popular
opinion around here has it that the C's are the ultimate in obtainable bb
heads (discounting D's and F's) for flow. Would it be worth my while, then,
to do a basic rebuild on my E's with Toro-sized 2.07" intakes, and then swap
them onto my Toro so I can port, shave and cut down the guides on its C's for
a, say, 450hp 455 in my SX?

Basically, since I'll be tricking out the heads for the SX anyway, and thus
pure stock performance becomes less significant, would it make much of a
difference starting out with its E's rather than C's? And to Chris W., who
has actually measured the ports in these things, is the reputation of the C
head a myth (oops, a question in bad taste when you're on your way up to a
swap meet with a dozen C heads under your arms for sale...) or is it truly
justified?

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 01:49:40 -0300
Subject: re: Bravada Rear Discs  

In a message dated 96-04-30 00:06:15 EDT, you write:

>anyone know of a rear wheel disc brake conversion for the GM 10 bolt rear?
>bravada needs it

Isn't that one of those 7.5" 10-bolts? Like they use on the F-bodies? Which
come with rear disc brakes? That might be worth investigating, if you can't
find a listing for such a kit in the back of one of the "Sport Truck"-type
magazines.

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 02:03:37 -0300
Subject: Re: IT'S ALIVE!!! (but hey! who's stepping on the brake?!?) 

Bob0Toro69

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that you weren't thorough. I guess I jumped the
gun there.

OK, so you did everyhting so far I would have done and would do. Glad you are
doing so. 

Personally, I have never had bonded lining failure because I NEVER have used
them. My Dad did once and that was enough for me. He was peeling off the
freeway in his 66Toro when BOTH front linings virtually exploded off the
backing plate into chunks. They were rather new too. At that point he had NO
front brakes and managed to bring her to a slow with only the rears and
limped it home from there. The epoxy that is used simply cannot take the
extreme heat build up generated by stopping a 4500lb behemouth rather
quickly. 

After I posted that note about bonded linings a few weeks ago, I recieved
several E-mails with similar stories....and these were on the likes of
Cutlasses etc. If those mid size (so to speak) cars can't keep bonded
linings, don't expect a Toro to. Brand names, IMHO, do not matter here....its
just plain physics and chemistry that don't properly apply here!

That Comfortron can be a bear...did you know that there is a printed circuit
in the control box? They can be tricky!. Also make sure that all the gates
and sluceways work properly in the mixture box (as I call it). That special
heater control valve with 2-3 small vacuum lines coming of it is critical
too. As this entire system is vacuum operated, you can't have one leak or it
won't work right. I still can't get mine to work on any of the 66's. It is
most likely the brainbox that is ill. I may have to pull out the control box
and see what gives. I have a spare and will change out at last resort. 

Looks like you are well on your way. It gets easier with every "next one" you
buy! If you have been biten by the Toro bug, as I think you have....you will
own more.....trust me!  LOL. Just when you think you are high on the learning
curve, something will always be there to give you a good dose of humble pie!
You never stop learning with these beasts!

Happy Toroing,

Greg Kalkhoff

------------------------------

From: Bob Valentine <ravalent@liii.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 02:07:49 -0300
Subject: Olds 10-bolt axles 

Due to a goof I am now have a pair of never-installed '71 Olds 10-bolt 
axles with brand new bearings and seals installed.   I had the "updated" 
style bearings installed - the newer full-width bearings instead of the 
OE style narrow bearing with spacers.   

I had this done since the bearings were worn out; while they were at the 
machine shop I yanked the rear cover.  Then found that the ring gear had 
a hairline crack in it, along with being generally worn out.  Machine shop 
had already pressed the bearings.   ;^(  

Swapped in another rear instead of rebuilding the shot 10-bolt.

I paid $110 for the bearings, installed.  Anyone interested in them at the
same price?   I'm on Long Island (New York), but I could ship them...

                     -->   Bob Valentine  <--  
                    --> ravalent@liii.com  <--

------------------------------

From: Bob Valentine <ravalent@liii.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 02:15:27 -0300
Subject: Re: IT'S ALIVE!!! (but hey! who's stepping on the brake?!?)

On Mon, 29 Apr 1996 Bob0Barry@aol.com wrote:
     
> BTW, I'd like to have 10 minutes alone in a room with a tire iron and the
> Olds engineer who decided the best place to save 10 lbs was by "windowing"
> the mains on Olds 403 blocks! If you've ever seen medieval stained glass

     That's why I'm always on the lookout for the 1977 403's - they did 
NOT have windowed main webs!

> And it's nice to know that others out there are getting as dirty on the
> weekend as I am. Do all your hands look 40 years older than you, or is it
> just me?

    Count me in!   Heck, all my friends think *I* am wierd because I'd 
rather tear apart motors and work on my Cutlass all weekend -- instead of 
sucking down brews at the local bar.   ;^)

- --> Bob Valentine
- --> ravalent@liii.com

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 02:59:40 -0300
Subject: Medieval Engine Design (was Re: IT'S ALIVE!!! (but hey! who's stepping on the br 

In a message dated 96-04-30 01:20:22 EDT, you write:

>> BTW, I'd like to have 10 minutes alone in a room with a tire iron and the
>> Olds engineer who decided the best place to save 10 lbs was by "windowing"
>> the mains on Olds 403 blocks! If you've ever seen medieval stained glass
>
>     That's why I'm always on the lookout for the 1977 403's - they did 
>NOT have windowed main webs!

That's what the rumor was, but as has been mentioned on this list before, all
'77 403's seen to date have had the window'd mains. Apparently, there was a
run of 2500 non-windowed 403's that were installed in B-bodied Pontiac
Wagons. Since the 49-state Pontiacs used the true Poncho 400, these would be
California-only models, which used the Olds 403 instead of the Pontiac 400 in
1977. Actually, Pontiac probably sold about that many B-bodied wagons in
California in 1977, so that number might not be out of thin air (it's a
number that comes from J. Mondello, so take that FWIW).

With no confirmed sightings of solid-web 403's, one just has to wonder
whether some observer mistook a 400 Pontiac for an Olds 403, and started this
nasty rumor that has us 403 owners reaching to pick up the phone whenever we
see a 403-powered 1977 *anything*!

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 03:00:03 -0300
Subject: Re: IT'S ALIVE!!! (but hey! who's stepping on the brake?!?) 

In a message dated 96-04-30 01:07:48 EDT, you write:

>That Comfortron can be a bear...did you know that there is a printed circuit
>in the control box? They can be tricky!. Also make sure that all the gates
>and sluceways work properly in the mixture box (as I call it). That special
>heater control valve with 2-3 small vacuum lines coming of it is critical
>too. As this entire system is vacuum operated, you can't have one leak or it
>won't work right. I still can't get mine to work on any of the 66's. It is
>most likely the brainbox that is ill. I may have to pull out the control box
>and see what gives. I have a spare and will change out at last resort. 

My main switch is now bypassed with a jumper wire, and the vacuum is
disconnected from it (2-owners ago did this), so I'm not hopeful for it.
Fusick's doesn't carry the part, but gave me the # of a place that
specializes in these things, and who will rebuild yours if all else fails.
They are Old Air Products (in TX, I think they said), at (817) 551-0602. I
may have to resort to them.

>Looks like you are well on your way. It gets easier with every "next one"
you
>buy! If you have been biten by the Toro bug, as I think you have....you will
>own more.....trust me!  LOL. Just when you think you are high on the
learning
>curve, something will always be there to give you a good dose of humble pie!
>You never stop learning with these beasts!

Well, I just had a parts car towed off today (hasta la Vista, Cruiser- doh! I
just had to say it!), so I don't think anything else will be filling its
place anytime soon, as its spot was reserved for the current '69 Toro (though
if there is a cheap parts-car in the NE...).

Actually, I'm shocked at the response I am getting from my family on this
purchase. My father, whose yard it sits in, is actually *bragging* to his
friends about "his" classic car (it's registered in his name to resolve a
title/registration snag), and when my wife sat behind the wheel, she said
"Cool interior!" (she liked the barrel speedo, especially with the "135mph"
peeking out underneath the "0mph" line; kind of a subliminal hint at what the
car is designed for, even when sitting still)  Note, she has never said
anything remotely like this about any of the cars we've owned.

So another Toro, perhaps to replace my Electra, might not be *entirely* out
of the question...

Quick, get the antidote! This fever is spreading!!!

- -Bob069Toro070SX0Barry

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 03:13:34 -0300
Subject: Re: IT'S ALIVE!!! (but hey! who's stepping on the brake?!?) 

In a message dated 96-04-30 01:07:48 EDT, you write:

>That Comfortron can be a bear...did you know that there is a printed circuit
>in the control box? They can be tricky!. Also make sure that all the gates
>and sluceways work properly in the mixture box (as I call it). That special
>heater control valve with 2-3 small vacuum lines coming of it is critical
>too. As this entire system is vacuum operated, you can't have one leak or it
>won't work right. I still can't get mine to work on any of the 66's. It is
>most likely the brainbox that is ill. I may have to pull out the control box
>and see what gives. I have a spare and will change out at last resort. 

My main switch is now bypassed with a jumper wire, and the vacuum is
disconnected from it (2-owners ago did this), so I'm not hopeful for it.
Fusick's doesn't carry the part, but gave me the # of a place that
specializes in these things, and who will rebuild yours if all else fails.
They are Old Air Products (in TX, I think they said), at (817) 551-0602. I
may have to resort to them.

>Looks like you are well on your way. It gets easier with every "next one"
you
>buy! If you have been biten by the Toro bug, as I think you have....you will
>own more.....trust me!  LOL. Just when you think you are high on the
learning
>curve, something will always be there to give you a good dose of humble pie!
>You never stop learning with these beasts!

Well, I just had a parts car towed off today (hasta la Vista, Cruiser- doh! I
just had to say it!), so I don't think anything else will be filling its
place anytime soon, as its spot was reserved for the current '69 Toro (though
if there is a cheap parts-car in the NE...).

Actually, I'm shocked at the response I am getting from my family on this
purchase. My father, whose yard it sits in, is actually *bragging* to his
friends about "his" classic car (it's registered in his name to resolve a
title/registration snag), and when my wife sat behind the wheel, she said
"Cool interior!" (she liked the barrel speedo, especially with the "135mph"
peeking out underneath the "0mph" line; kind of a subliminal hint at what the
car is designed for, even when sitting still)  Note, she has never said
anything remotely like this about any of the cars we've owned.

So another Toro, perhaps to replace my Electra, might not be *entirely* out
of the question...

Quick, get the antidote! This fever is spreading!!!

- -Bob069Toro070SX0Barry

------------------------------

From: John Schmich <schmich@AZStarNet.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 04:32:06 -0300
Subject: Re: Meeting Chris W., etc. 

At 11:37 PM 4/29/96 -0300, you wrote:
> My dad, little brother, & I
>stopped by to purchase a buildable 350 for my '85 442.
>
>Speaking of which, I'm planning to use a fairly hot cam AND hook the
>computer back up, so Brandon & Brody-please keep us up to date on the
>problems you've been having.  I've heard of vacuum reserve canisters you can
>buy & install, is this a viable option?
Shawn and many others:

     Just called CompCams, and all they could help me with is that a new
computer chip might help.  So I first call Hypertech, and they weren't to
helpfull.  The guy kinda blew me off and just said that if its not running
now, its not gonna run right after you put in the new chip.  Still extremely
fustrated, I called ADS  brand chips and the tech guy was very helpful and
honest,  and he claims that their or any (performance) chip would not work.
What I want to know is what are they good for other than helping out a stock
motor.  I just want to let the computer think what it is recieving is right.
Does anyone think that maybe a stock, (from Olds) H.O. PROM would work.   
     My problem is the vaccum.  Yes, I've seen those vaccum canisters in the
Summit catalog but it claims that they are for improving brakes.  Therefore,
it sounds like it is a continuous stream of vaccum and the engine needs the
vaccum to fluk-shu-ate(?).  I also found a little black conductor, that has
a vaccum hose going into one side and a outlet for a electrical line on the
other.  This line goes to the computer and this black box is the main vaccum
sending unit.  I asked a reliable parts store if they made another model of
this to increase the vaccum.  She said NO but that Cutlass that were
specially made for high altitude areas got different conductors because of
the air pressure.  Because of the air pressure, (say Colorado) the engine
didn't get the amount of vaccum, needed so this black box told the computer
what it really needed.  She said that a high alt. conductor might be what I
need but she is unsure.  Ever here of this?  If this will work does anyone
have any leads on one cheap.  
     I'm to the point where I've spent to much money trying different things
to make this work.  It seems that nobody can give me an sure answer.  I sort
of understand this because I'm probably the only one in the world stupid
enough to perform this task.  Unless otherwise, in the next couple of days
(to my extreme disagreement) the engine has to be taken out.  Any
suggestions before the final days?
     What we think we are going to do is make the 84 block my brother is
building know, and make it either stock or one step up.  We think stock is
252 and the next series higher is 260.  This is how I don't believe why mine
won't work.  Anyway, we will put the stock block in my car and rebuild the
84 motor that won't work now, for my brother's car.  (Confused?)  BTW, is a
camshaft salvageable after it has been used just a bit?  If so, anyone want
to buy a Competion Cams 268 hydraulic for $2500. 
     In the end everybody looses out.  What makes me mad is the time, effort
and patience we put into this and now we get to start over again.  What also
makes me mad is that I suggested this setup in many of my letters and now I
turn around and can't give you guys and honest answer on how to get
perfromance out of you computer control cars.  I hope no one has taken my
persumed (great perfromance setup) and started a project.  
     My advice, is to hold off on the cam as long as possible and find a
local, that knows the secrets or has done this before.  What I think would
be much help is the cam specs on the stock and H.O. engines of 81-84.  This
will help us better determine which after-market camshaft to buy.  Thank you.
>
>Problem/Question:  the lock-up torque converter on the 200R4 isn't working
>properly.  Whenever I start the car, no problem, but without fail after one
>or two minutes driving around the check engine light comes on, and I'm
>pretty sure this is related to the converter not locking up.  Usually, the
>light stays lit once it comes on, but one day I was driving at highway speed
>for a long time...the converter seemed to be locked up, the light would come
>on at exactly the same time as I pick up 400-500 or so RPMs....then I lose
>the extra RPMs, and a few seconds later, no light.  The car doesn't need to
>be in lockup conditions to get the light-it always comes on like I said a
>few minutes after being started even beating around the city-but whenever
>the light is on, no lock-up on the highway.  Is it likely a hardware problem
>with the converter or a computer/switch problem?  Any advice is greatly
>appreciated.
>Thanks,

     I don't actually know if this is the problem but my car would do the
same thing.  Where the light would come on and shut off and then come and
shut off, and so on.  Under the hood a week ago, we were messing with the
carb, and the light was flashing vigorously.  We later traced it down to the
electrical plug at the front, left and on top side of carb, (standing in
front of car.)  Jiggle this wire and see if the connection is loose.  While
moving it, see if the light comes on.  Like I said, this might not be your
problem but its just a hunch.

P.S. A letter coming soon about the Edelbrock Perfomer Manifold #3711, and
Hedman headers for all interested.
Brandon
Brodie
>
>__________________________________________________________________________
>Shawn M. Twomey     |  "No!  Try NOT!  Do, or do not.  There is no try."
>stwom@ctp.com       |  -Yoda
>__________________________________________________________________________
>

------------------------------

From: "Dal Allan" <dal_allan@mcimail.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 04:50:53 -0300
Subject: RE:re:Convertible_top 

From:  Bob Valentine  
       ravalent@liii.com 

>      I haven't yet had that happen on my '71, but I've had the switch go 
> bad.   I put two 40 amp relays in to take the place of the switch - 
> Voila! - that switch won't be going bad again.   This also will feed more 
> juice to the motor.   I don't know about your '67, but the switch for my 
> '71 is made of unobtanium.   

I know the material. Mine too has the same switch as in Vistacruisers but 
I've always been the second guy after it in any VCs that I've seen in the 
Pik-Ur-Own yards. 

>     I'll bet that the seal between the pump and the motor went bad.   
> You've probably got a motor full of oil - that has happened to me with 
> TWO pumps - one of which was a "rebuilt".   I now yank it apart 1x a year 
> to make sure the seal is ok.

I think you've nailed it. I removed the motor tonight and there seems to be 
fluid seeping where the wires enter the motor. It is not sufficient to have 
dripped into the trunk area but is able to be 'squeezed' out by flexing the 
wires. 

The lines are bone dry, though why it would drain UP from the pistons into 
the motor is strange. There is absolutely no sign of leakage anywhere in the 
car. I've got the back seats and side panels out and even went exploring 
with a flashlight in places where the fluid is unlikely to have gathered 
(like the bottom of the window wells). 

>                        I pick up any top motor at the swaps for less 
> than $10 - I get about half to work, and use half of them for parts.  

Wow! I've never even seen any at swaps around here (Northern California Bay 
Area) and the prices they ask on some of the stuff is so close to Year One 
that it isn't worth buying. 

> The most common problem I see is that there is debris or gunk clogging the 
> gears in the pump.  Clean it out and it usually comes back to life.  The 
> old brake fluid ones are usually in worse shape the the Dextron ones.

Thanks for the tip. I'm expecting the worst of a pump that's been running 
with brake fluid, and you've just confirmed it.

>      I've got the original lines and cyl's in my '71 - and it is/was far 
> from a well maintained car.   Preventative maintance is always a good 
> thing however.   

That's encouraging. Since there is no sign of leakage the cylinders may be 
fine.

>>  - Does anybody have experience with getting their unit rebuilt?

> Yes - I paid $79 to a local "restoration" shop to do it, and the unit
> burned out 6 months later - they never replaced the pump-to-motor seal.
> Got a 2nd one and it never had enough pressure - top was painfully slow.    

If I can't buy a used operational motor and I have to get mine re-done I'm 
going to try a specialist shop, Convertible Service in San Gabriel. I took 
Greg's advice and gave them a call, they really seem to know what they are 
talking about. 

>      I finally got one from a junkyard that must have been taken out in 
> about 1973 or so from a 1970 car - brand new except for about 1/4" of 
> grease and grime.   Princely sum of $30 - works great.  ;^)

What a deal! Where are you that there are such great swaps and yards?

>     A real manual or a fake?  The real ones can easily be put up by 
> one person on one side.  Fake (aka removed hydraulic system) is accompished 
> by one person standing on the back seat doing the clean-and-jerk.   

That it is so easy surprises me. The only manual tops I've ever encountered 
were on English cars and they were a @#@$%$#! Then again, considering the 
source.... 

Thanks,

Dal

------------------------------

From: "Dal Allan" <dal_allan@mcimail.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 04:50:44 -0300
Subject: RE:re:Convertible_top 

From:  Hans
       hpnaepflin@CCGATE.HAC.COM

> I had my pump/motor rebuilt by some guy in florida who advertized in Hemmings, 
> $79 and has worked well so far.  Check Hemmings, sorry, don't have the name or 
> address.

Called Convertible Service in San Gabriel and they offer the same service on 
pre-1970 pistons so it goes off to them later this week unless I can free 
the unit and get it operational in the meantime. 

> To get the motor off, spray WD40 (or similar) all over the grommets and pry 
> with a small screw driver.  Got 2outa3 off in one piece.  I just ran a small 
> bolt thru the broken one and it holds fine.

No such luck for me, I took a grip on the motor, began to raise the motor 
and had my screwdriver ready to help the grommet. Instant release. The same 
on both the others, they were so brittle they just snapped away, leaving the 
other half of the grommet still in position. 

> If you stand on the back seat and pull up on the header bow you can get the 
> top up manually.  Really have to heave if the system is full of fluid,  may 
> be easier in your case ;)   Makes it easier to get at the top pump at least 
> on the '70 you can get at it thru the trunk under the well cover.

Even with the top down I was able to access the pump fairly easily after 
removing all the screws holding the boot well in position. The Body Manual 
calls for the top to be up and locked in position to remove and replace the 
cylinders. Bummer, because its a lot easier to work in the back seat when 
there is no roof! 

> I fried my motor when the top switch got stuck.  BTW the top rocker switch on 
> the '70 is the same as the Vista Cruiser rear window switch so I've snagged a 
> couple at the pick-a-parts when I've come accross them.

Mine is the same as on the Vista Cruiser also, but I've never found one in a 
Pik-Ur-Part yard that I could recover. 

> Mine has had ATF as long as I've had it, don't know of any problems with 
> mixing BF and ATF.  Since you lost a lot of fluid suddenly, I think it's 
> time to remove the back seat a side panels to check for major leaks after 
> you get yer pumpmotor rebuilt. 

All the panels are out. Reading in the manual that the 67 had brake fluid 
and knowing my klutz capabilities all too well, I removed the upholstery and 
side panels before even looking at the pump and pistons. Not a sign anywhere 
of any fluid. The lines are dry, but there is a little bit in the reservoir 
because I can hear it when shaking the motor. 

According to my 72 Buick manual, the fluid used was Dexron and you have it 
too. That means GM switched in either 1968 or 1969. 

> Regarding those plastic lines, has anybody come up with a fix?  I just 
> broke one recently and they sure are pricey?

According to my Body manual, those lines have to take 380 pounds of pressure 
so that helps one understand why they cost a lot. 

> Regarding cylinders, I recently picked a pair off a 68 Caddy that seem to be 
> identical to those on my 70 cutlass and seem to be in good shape, no apparant 
> signs of leakage.  If you need one or both, I'll part with em for alot less 
> than the new price.

Thanks for the offer. Mine seem to be fine as there is no sign of leakage 
but you'll be hearing from me if they turn out to be at fault. How much do 
you want for them? 

It looks like I work my way down the possibilities part by part, starting 
with the motor. Convertible Service offered to check my pistons out when 
they redo the motor at n/c. The only downside to their offer is having to 
remove the cylinders. It looks straightforward enough but I've been there 
too many times before to believe anything is as easy as it looks. 

> Good Luck!

Thanks. 

------------------------------

From: "Dal Allan" <dal_allan@mcimail.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 04:51:02 -0300
Subject: re:Convertible_top 

Howdy all,

After following the sound advice of others on the reflector, it turns out 
the problem is in the motor. The fluid which I've been trying to find inside 
the car actually 'disappeared' into the motor because the inner seal gave up 
the ghost. 

Paying $200 for a motor does not appeal at all, especially since Bob 
Valentine told me he was able to pick up a used one for $30.

    IF ANYONE HAS AN OPERATIONAL CONVERTIBLE TOP MOTOR, I'M INTERESTED. 

I have the 3-point model which was used up through 72 for sure (same unit is 
in my 72 GS). Two point support on the driver end of the mounting (motor 
with three wires coming out of it) and one point on the passenger side. 

Please reply direct to dal_allan@mcimail.com rather than over the reflector. 

Many thanks to all for their help. 


Something that may be of Value: I learned in talking to Convertible Service 
that unlike brakes, it is not a good idea to evacuate all the air from the 
system. It seems a little air in the lines acts like a buffer to prevent 
blowing the lines and popping the inner seal. 

Convertible Service sells a 'positive feed hydraulic system filler' which 
uses a pressure pump to fill the reservoir and avoids the messy problem of 
filling the reservoir on the bench before maneuvering it into position. It 
costs $35 and I ordered one. I'll let you all know how well it works. 

Dal

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 05:36:39 -0300
Subject: Unorthodox Oiling Mods

A Ford friend of mine told me a story about how on a 351 Cleveland block, 
which is similar in design to Olds blocks (crap oiling), you can run an 
external oiling line direct from the rear of the oil gallery near the 
pump all the way up to the front into the oil pressure sending port 
(enlarged for the purpose).  This helps even out oiling by counteracting 
some of the bleed off caused by the hydraulic lifters, which can cause an 
occasional lack of pressure all the way at the front of the block.  Can 
this work on an Olds block and what, if any, are the merits?

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
 revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
 information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
 Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
 been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 10:47:51 -0300
Subject: re: Bravada Rear Discs  

At 01.49 04,30,96 -0300, you wrote:
>In a message dated 96-04-30 00:06:15 EDT, you write:
>
>>anyone know of a rear wheel disc brake conversion for the GM 10 bolt rear?
>>bravada needs it
>
>Isn't that one of those 7.5" 10-bolts? Like they use on the F-bodies? Which
>come with rear disc brakes? That might be worth investigating, if you can't
>find a listing for such a kit in the back of one of the "Sport Truck"-type
>magazines.
>
>

no its a special type...because of the all wheel drive it shares the same
rear as the Syclone, the problem is in swapping the rear with an F body is
that the bravada's rear is electronic...if you ever get the chance to take
the diff cover off, it has all these little black boxes and sensors on the
inside...

so does anyone know of a kit to put discs on a drum rear?
                    zack
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\ "That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
 *************

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 10:06:58 -0300
Subject: Re: Meeting Chris W., etc. 

>>The car doesn't need to
>>be in lockup conditions to get the light-it always comes on like I said a
>>few minutes after being started even beating around the city-but whenever
>>the light is on, no lock-up on the highway.  Is it likely a hardware problem
>>with the converter or a computer/switch problem?  Any advice is greatly
>>appreciated.

Since the computer is flashing the CHECK ENGINE light at you, the first
order of business is to find out what it's complaining about by dumping
the error code(s). If you're not familiar with how to do this (it's really
a no-brainer process requiring only a paper clip), get back to me and I'll
find my old posting on the subject; you can also hit the library for any
Chilton/Motor/Haynes/whatever manual for the procedure. Actually you'll
need the manual anyway in order to get the translation for the numerical
error code(s) you receive, but in any event, you don't need to do trial
and error guesswork until _after_ you've at least pulled the error codes.

(Okay, in a nutshell, you find the ALDL connector under the edge of your
dashboard and jumper the two rightmost (or _top_ rightmost, for a two-row
connector) ports together. Turn on the ignition and wait for the Check
Engine light to blink a Code 12 ("blink" *pause* "blink-blink" ...repeat...)
at you, signifying operational diagnostics and No Tach Signal input since
the engine isn't running yet. On later cars, after the third repetition of
Code 12, it will go on to list any stored faults, three times each in 
increasing order. Note all shown and hit the manual for details. On earlier
cars you must start the engine in order to retrieve stored error codes.
While in diagnostic mode, you will also have all underhood solenoids
energized for testing (check for voltage at their connectors) and the
Mixture Control Solenoid (see below) will be chattering away.)

>     I don't actually know if this is the problem but my car would do the
>same thing.  Where the light would come on and shut off and then come and
>shut off, and so on.  Under the hood a week ago, we were messing with the
>carb, and the light was flashing vigorously.  We later traced it down to the
>electrical plug at the front, left and on top side of carb, (standing in
>front of car.)  Jiggle this wire and see if the connection is loose.  While
>moving it, see if the light comes on.  Like I said, this might not be your
>problem but its just a hunch.

If that connector is on the top at the passenger's side, it's probably the
connector to the Mixture Control Solenoid (MCS) in the carburetor. The other
connector, a vertical plug at the front left (driver's-side) corner of the 
carb, is for the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS).

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 14:17:06 -0300
Subject: Re: What's she worth?

Mike,

Sorry to hear of your decision to sell the Cutlass.  Been there, done 
that, and understand what a bummer it is.  I remember parting with my 
first Toro.  

On the other hand, the second one was more fun than the first.  Same 
holds true for the wife, the second one is MUCH more fun than the first 
(who let me sell the above 1st Toro).

Hope things get back on track soon.


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 12:09:28 -0300
Subject: Cranks, life

Hey, did anyone happen to save the phone number of that guy I told y'all about
a while back who offered cranks in HMN for like $100 with bearings? I can't
seem to locate his contact info now, and could use a crank maybe. Or 2. Thanks!

Dropped off some scrap metal at Padnos yesterday... picked up a 'port matched'
SB intake, std. #16 big-port EGR intake, dropped off a #5 head and the tractor
xst manifold that the turbo used to be on, AND got $2 back! What a deal!

Oh, then I stopped by Friedland just to see what they had. Parked across the
street, dashed in to check- no items of interest- dashed back out. On the way
in was a truck. I was on the sidewalk. I motioned to the truck driver to talk
to me, asked him if he ever ran across engine parts. He did. Gave him a flier,
the typical "Don't throw away $100! Call me with Olds parts!" thing... and
asked him to take engine parts to Padnos, cuz these jerkey boys refuse to sell
engine parts no matter how rare...
   Couple hours later, my wife calls me, says she just fielded a call from some
guy ranting about a 'multi-milliion dollar lawsuit'  and 'trespassing'... Seems
he's some guy that co-owns Friedland, saw me dash in & out maybe, talked to the
truck driver? and got the flier... tries to pass himself off as a lawyer
talking to my wife... makes fun of our family name ["what is that
HALF-wit"...]. In general, behaves like a jerk. I called the number he gave
her, got some lawyers' office who claimed to not even know a Mr. Ruffkin... yet
offered to take a message. I told them that his behavior was very
unprofessional and that if he has a problem with ME to talk to ME about it, not
my wife, and that IF I ever happened to do anything illegal, THEN he might
consider legal action, but as far as I know I can tell anyone I please to
boycott Friedland, and for good reason. So there. I figured, based on 1- the
unprofessional attitude, and 2-the a**hole nature of the man, that it was some
joker at Friedland impersonating a lawyer and basically sabre-rattling in an
effort to intimidate me. Good luck.
   So, today, the wife calls up Friedland, on a hunch, and asks for "Mr.
Ruffkin".... Oh, he's "not in right now" [how very convenient!]... "So, is he
like, the owner?" asks Angela.... "Well, part owner" is the reply. BINGO, I
pegged his story yesterday. What a joke. From now on, I intend to urge every
caller and every hauler I meet at Padnos to boycott Friedland, and tell them
exactly why, too.



- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: JK McCall <jkmccall@clic.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 12:27:37 -0300
Subject: 84 Delta 88

Hello fellow Oldsmobilers:

Yesterday I looked at an 84 Delta 88 2 Dr notchback (307 Y code), the car is rough body 
wise but there are many good parts still left on her.  I tried talking the guy into 
parting it out but that was a no go...  He wants it gone.  Seeing that I only want 
certain things off of it I told him that I'd have to think about it.  (I don't really 
have the room to store another vehicle).  So if you're looking for some parts drop me a 
line by E-mail and maybe we can work something out.  It has overdrive, that's one thing 
I want, power windows, cruise, red interior but no astroroof (not powered seats either) 
and the usual assortment of trim for that model.

JK McCall

jkmccall@qbc.clic.net

------------------------------

From: jrjet@whidbey.net (Dot & Tim McChesney)
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 12:48:56 -0300
Subject: Re: Online Meetings 

I would be interested hope It works for MAC. send copy and instuctions.

Tim 71 cutlass convert

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 16:02:28 -0300
Subject: Re: stalling fixed!! (finally!)

David Paulison wrote:
> 
> It was the little wire that connects the breaker plate to ground...

I've said it before, I'll say it again:  Grounds, grounds, grounds.  
Worst thing in a car.

(There goes that wirehead, again)

Glad you got it fixed, Dave.


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 13:05:13 -0300
Subject: Hmmmm...

Went to a seminar on diesel injector droplet analysis today. Older gentleman
next to me struck up a conversation... turns out he used to work for Olds,
helped develop the Rocket engine and the Jetfire Turbo system. Gave me a couple
of reprints of magazine articles.

Now, I need to schmooze him for job contacts! Networking! Yes!

- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: JK McCall <jkmccall@clic.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 13:08:32 -0300
Subject: Re: Online Meetings

Dot & Tim McChesney wrote:
> 
> I would be interested hope It works for MAC. send copy and instuctions.
> 
> Tim 71 cutlass convert


Don't know about Mac but I just set mine up and checked it out.  He's 
even got a welcome msg set up talking about the meeting this thursday 
night.

CYA there

JK McCall

------------------------------

From: Cary Yamamoto <yamamoto@unr.edu>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 13:17:02 -0300
Subject: 66 toro

Well I'm off to see the 66 Toro this week.  From talking to the guy, it
has alot of surface rust from sitting outside. The seats have been redone
in original brochade, but the door panels have beeen removed and put in
the cellar.  It is the deluxe model with power everything.  Supposedly it
runs good, but he said that one boot is ripped.  He bought it from the
original owner.  It sat at the Olds dealership for 8 years before he got
it.  A doctor first purchased it and he died while the car was in the
shop.  There it sat, until his wife peddled it off. He has 2 extras dash
panels, a new trunk lid, etc.  The guy who owns it is an Olds fanatic.
He restores them.  He has a '55, 56, and a '57 fiesta wagon.  He's now
working on a '64 convt, for a client.  $1200 may seem too much.

On another note, I was at a irrigation parts house this morning, and one
of the employees is selling his '69 442 for $500.  Didn't ask any
questions about it, but it seems reasonable.



Cary Yamamoto                                 University of NV, Reno
Coordinator,                                  Prospective Students/110
Prospective Students                          Reno, NV  89557
                                              (702) 784-4865 
	                                      (702) 784-1852 fax	 

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 13:22:43 -0300
Subject: Re: IT'S ALIVE!!! (but hey! who's stepping on the brake?!?)

At 12:08 AM 4/30/96 -0300, you wrote:

>
>Have you had many bad experiences with bonded shoes? 

Every pair (three or four!) I put in my Cutlass cracked after a couple of
months.  The riveted ones on the car now are over a year old and not cracked 
at all.  They are made by Raybestos.  Just my 2 cents worth.

- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #162
********************************

