
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

oldsmobile-digest           Friday, 1 March 1996        Volume 01 : Number 106


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Saladin <rsaladin@bright.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 15:36:15 -0400
Subject: Re: 85 Toronado Wimpy performance

At 04:50 AM 2/28/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>Hey there gary! Sounds like you may have a plugged converter perhaps. Try
>>running catylic converter cleaner which you can get at Canadian Tire for
>>about 6 bucks. I know i ran some through my Escort and it was much more
>>resonsive (well as responsive as Escorts can be!) :) later!
>
>     Umm, exactly what kind of cleaner is that?  Usually when a cat is
>plugged, it is because the actual catalyst is damaged and restricts the
>exhaust (I'm pretty sure.)  Exactly what does this cleaner do?  Is it like

   I was under the impression that when the cat got plugged, it wasn't
because of actual damage, but rather buildup of junk on the guts. Things
that shouldn't have been there to start with (like lead), or stuff that
should have burnt off with the high temps converged on the pellets, let
them get bigger and bigger until there wasn't any space left for exhaust.
However, I'm neither pretty nor sure, so I'm well open to more info on
this subject. I haven't seen nor heard of the cat cleaner before, but
if it works it sounds a whole lot cheaper than replacement.

------------------------------

From: ggreen@ftn.net (Gary Green)
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 16:23:00 -0400
Subject: 85 Toronado Summary

Thanks to all for the excellent advice on improving the performance of my
wimpmobile.

  I have replaced the air filter and gas-line filter.  Will try the
catelytic converter cleaner and do the tune-up when I put it back on the
road in the Spring.

Right now I'm packing my bags for sunny (I hope) Florida.  If I see any
fantastic Oldsmobiles for sale on the way will take notes.  See you in two
weeks.

Gary Green
Ottawa



------------------------------

From: "Shawn M. Twomey" <stwom@ctp.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 16:56:09 -0400
Subject: Michigan Olds listings

A few listings from the Michigan version Muscle & Sports Car Trader.  I
think you guys would consider most of these overpriced, but hey, its Michigan.

-
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
68 Cutlass Conv., 350, Turbo 400, body off frame resto, black cherry $8000
firm                      (517) 263-8783

71 442, built 455, ported/polished heads, Turbo 400, torker, 850 Holley, 3"
exhaust, 4.10 posi, more
$5250 (picture looks nice)      (810) 478-7796

70 442 Conv. Pace Car, original resto-numbers match
$12,500                         (517) 332-0284

69 442 Conv, new red paint/interior, built 455, 4-sp.
$8500                           (517) 332-0284

66 98 luxury sedan, body & interior nice, needs motor work, MSTA
$2500/bo                        (517) 749-5071

62 Starfire, 394, Louisiana car, show quality
$10,500/bo (drugs?)             (216) 943-9585

71 Cutlass Conv., 200K mi, auto, built 350, new top, no rust, new upholstery
$6225                           (810) 545-7871
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

A lot of those have been in the mag a while.  I can look at the ones with
(517) area codes.


__________________________________________________________________________
Shawn M. Twomey     |  "No!  Try NOT!  Do, or do not.  There is no try."
stwom@ctp.com       |  -Yoda
__________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

From: <mikehal1@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 19:15:12 -0400
Subject: Re: fuel system

>You mention in your e-mail to Olds owners list that you will be adding a
B&G
>Fuel Injection system and,
>an Electric Fuel Pump.  I have a  330 cid, quadrajet fed '67 Olds CS.  It's
>no secret that there are better ways to feed my little 330.  Who do you
>suggest that I contact to look into the electronic fuel injection for my
>car?  Does "B&G" offer one?  What was the price range for yours (if ya'
>don't mind)?
>
>By the way, that was a great post.  I just wish your parts list was for a
>330.


Doug,

B&G, if you didn't know, is short for "Barry Grant Fuel Systems".
Summit Racing catalogs carry their line, however, their latest catalog
(March/April 1996) does not show this brand new, bolt-on, fuel
injection system. Call Summit @ 330-630-3030 to order. It's expensive,
under 2 grand, but much better than the Holley TBI at half the cost.
The Summit catalog has other fuelie options but the TBI's are the
easiest on the pocketbook. A Quadrajet feeds my 350 right now and I am
very happy with it. I got mine rebuilt professionally by:
Mitch's Carburetors
4850 Bollinger Road
Vestaburg, MI  48891
(517) 833-2207
I have always thought that the trusty Q-jet is a respectable piece of
equipment.

Thanks for the kudo's!

To the contrary, my list of parts, with a couple of exceptions, will
work just fine with your 330! The 330/350/403 is of the same family of
small block Olds engine design. Many, many parts are interchangeable
and that is the rule rather than the exception. Get Mondello's and Dave
Smith's catalog to see how much good stuff is available for your 330.

Have Fun!
Mike Hall


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Michael R. Hall               Ortonville, Michigan
E-Mail: mikehal1@ix.netcom.com
Owner: 1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass S, 380 horses of pure Mondello fun...
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

------------------------------

From: <mikehal1@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 19:15:17 -0400
Subject: Car

Andy Green,

Lets talk on the car, please e-mail your phone # again,

Thanks,
Mike Hall
810-627-5010


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Michael R. Hall               Ortonville, Michigan
E-Mail: mikehal1@ix.netcom.com
Owner: 1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass S, 380 horses of pure Mondello fun...
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

------------------------------

From: tbmarq@mayhem.b23a.ingr.com (Tom Marquis)
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 20:07:47 -0400
Subject: Re: fuel system

> >You mention in your e-mail to Olds owners list that you will be adding a
> B&G
> >Fuel Injection system and,
> >an Electric Fuel Pump.  I have a  330 cid, quadrajet fed '67 Olds CS.  It's
 > >no secret that there are better ways to feed my little 330.  Who do you >
>suggest that I contact to look into the electronic fuel injection for my >
>car?  Does "B&G" offer one?  What was the price range for yours (if ya' >
>don't mind)? > >

I don't know who originally posted it but, a chevy 350 TPI system would be
the cheapest, **IF** you can find an aftermarket intake that will fit the
olds.

I picked up a 350 TPI system with computer,wiring harness, distibuter and just
about everything else for $500.00 *USED*.(I was thinking about using it for
the 327 in my 63 pickup.) If you could get an intake for $500 you'd be off to
the races...i

Does anyone make an OLDS intake? Lingenfelter?



TomM

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 20:37:57 -0400
Subject: Re: fuel system

Haha that my friend is but a dream...there isn't a single Olds-specific
aftermarket fuel injection. To think that someone would tool up to cast
Olds lowers for TPI is kind of far fetched...

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
 revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
 information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
 Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
 been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 20:41:47 -0400
Subject: Ideas

In the same vein as an earlier message, I wonder if this would be
possible.  I noticed that some company makes Cadillac intake spacers that
allow you to fit a Ford 429/460 intake onto a Cadillac bigblock.  I
wonder if it would be possible to make spacers to fit Chevrolet intakes
onto Olds engines?  If such an item were available, imagine the
possibilities!

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
 revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
 information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
 Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
 been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

From: Doug Mcclanahan <Mcclan@wsdot.wa.gov>
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 21:38:15 -0400
Subject: (no subject)

>>>I don't know who originally posted it but, a chevy 350 TPI system would be
the cheapest, **IF** you can find an aftermarket intak= e that will fit the
olds.

>>>I picked up a 350 TPI system with computer, wiring harness, distibuter and
just about everything else for $500.00 *USED*.(I was t= hinking about using it
for the 327 in my 63 pickup.) If you could get an intake for $500 you'd be off
to the races

>>>Does anyone make an OLDS intake? Lingenfelter?

>>>TomM

First off I need to qualify every word that follows with the fact that I
am a desk jock and I don't know much about cars other than the fact that
I'm an Olds nut.  Having said that:

If an intake did exist for an olds port fuel injection system, wouldn't
the "brain" of the fuel injection system have to be "mapped" for whatever
specific cam, intake, head, piston (compression ratio), fuel, gearing,
etc. combination that the system would be used for -- or are these
just things that can be programmed into the brain (chip)?

Also, I read an article in (I think it was) Boater's World where they
tested the power and fuel economy of fuel injection vs. carburetors.  At
least in boats, the article said that a "properly" tuned carburetor was
capable of more power and more fuel efficiency than the fuel injection
unit.  Now I'm not arguing either way here but I am hoping that some of
you might have read some articles that would shed some light on this
subject for autos.  It may have been that the fuel injection system used
in the boat test was a unit that was set up for only a few "popular sized
boats" of specific weights and prop combos and this system just happend
to be on a boat with different weight and or prop combo or engine size --
thus affecting its efficiency.

Anyway, if anyone has made a chevy TPI system work on any other make than
a chevy I would love to hear from you.  Thanks!

Doug McClanahan
mcclan@wsdot.wa.gov

------------------------------

From: Dan Dale <daleds@okra.millsaps.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 22:13:41 -0400
Subject: RE: (no subject)

From: Doug Mcclanahan <Mcclan@wsdot.wa.gov>

>If an intake did exist for an olds port fuel injection system, wouldn't
>the "brain" of the fuel injection system have to be "mapped" for whatever
>specific cam, intake, head, piston (compression ratio), fuel, gearing,
>etc. combination that the system would be used for -- or are these
>just things that can be programmed into the brain (chip)?

>Doug McClanahan
>mcclan@wsdot.wa.gov

you are absolutely correct there. any kind of electronic fuel injection setup
would need to have its own specially programmed computer chip that was setup
for the specific combination that you would be using.  that's why if you look
in a Hypertech catalog, for instance, there are at least 5 or 6 different
chips for every year camaro due to different engine sizes, types of fuel inj.
used, transmission, etc.

this is not to say it couldn't be done.  I don't think it would be a problem
to have someone custom program a computer chip to work with your setup, but it
would be pretty expensive.

I do have one question. why not just use a holley projection system.  these
units bolt on in place of the carb., require no manifold modifications, and
are really quite simple to program.  just a thought

Dan Dale
'72 Cotner-Bevington Olds 98 Hearse (not Hurst)

------------------------------

From: Dan Dale <daleds@okra.millsaps.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 22:18:12 -0400
Subject: Re: 455 RH Dual Exhaust Manifold

From: "wesf@hpdmm12.boi.hp.com" <wesf@hpdmm12.boi.hp.com>

>>From: Dan Dale <daleds@okra.millsaps.edu>
>>
>>I've been trying to track a passenger side dual exhaust manifold down
>>for my '72 98....does anyone know if they have larger outlets than the
>>single exhaust manifolds? I want at least 2.25 otherwise I might as well
>>try to find some headers.
>
>I wriggled in to the car in storage, fought the spiders (yech), crawled
>under the car and looked at the end of the RH dual exhaust manifold.
>Near as I can tell, it looks like a 2.25 output.  The casting is larger
>than 2.25 in diameter and my 2.25 exhaust pipe and flange bolt right up
>directly, with no reducer or expander (depending on how you look at it).
>
>Good luck on your search to try and find one.  I don't think that most
>salvage yards sort and store manifolds by car/engine and for mine, I
>found it at the bottom of a huge pile of misc manifolds that they had
>in the yard.
>
>Wes Fujii

what kind of car do you have that you were looking at?  I know that duals were
an option on the big cars, but I wonder how many were actually built from the
factory like that?  if anyone know where I might could find a pair for a
reasonable price I'd really appreciate it, most of the yards around here have
crushed everything old or the ones with old parts think they are worth a
fortune.

thanks for the help

Dan Dale

------------------------------

From: Scott R Clark <mickeyd@selway.umt.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 22:55:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Ideas and NEW FUEL PUMP!!

	Hey guys!!

> In the same vein as an earlier message, I wonder if this would be
> possible.  I noticed that some company makes Cadillac intake spacers that
> allow you to fit a Ford 429/460 intake onto a Cadillac bigblock.  I
> wonder if it would be possible to make spacers to fit Chevrolet intakes
> onto Olds engines?  If such an item were available, imagine the
> possibilities!
>
	I actually have the catalog that has that spacer (Cadillac
Motorsports Development...or was it MTS, I forget...I'm still toying with
the idea of putting a
500" Cad big block into a 78 Malibu...) Anyway, the thing is a little on
the pricey side...to the tune of about $350!  And you have to buy a Ford
intake on top of that...
	I imagine an Olds version would end up being infinetly cheaper,
since demand would be through the roof (at least compared to Cadillac).
Who knows, maybe someone will build one...Chris, you still out there? ;)
	
	And on a different note, a couple days ago I became the proud
father of a brand new bouncing baby Delco fuel pump!  (Well, it was
exciting to me anyway :)  It even came in this cool box that said "New AC
Delco Fuel Pump" (imagine that!), but I got a chuckle out of it since
the box looks every bit of it's 35 years.  Anyway, the thing is
beautiful, glass bowl and all.  All I have to do is transfer the
fittings, prime it, grease the lever and let it rip!  'Ol Dan down at the
dealership is even going to try to help me find some of the little trim
things I'm missing, which would be nice.
	
	Speaking of trim that I'm missing, I was curious if anybody else
out there has ever seen a headliner made up of panels (heavy
cardboard-like stuff) sepparated by metal roof bows that have chromed
plastic trim on them.  My 98 is the only car I have ever seen with this
setup, and I'm having absolutly no luck finding the plastic things that
cover the bows (the old ones just sort of crumbled when I tried to remove
them).  What do you guys think?  Hmmm....

			Scott
		1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98

------------------------------

From: FREDALL@aol.com
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 00:05:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Do you subscribe to Cars & Parts?

Yes I sure do subscribe to Cars & Parts and have been for several years.
 Fred Allard  Fredall@AOL.com     1957 Super 88

------------------------------

From: "Dink" <heinle@jake.udayton.edu>
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 00:16:34 -0400
Subject: RE: (no subject)

> this is not to say it couldn't be done.  I don't think it would be a problem
to > have someone custom program a computer chip to work with your setup, but
it > would be pretty expensive.

Hypertech does custom burns for around $150. Not to expensive.

Dink
80 Delta 88 Royale

{
Dink           Dayton, Ohio
http://homepages.udayton.edu/students/heinle/
}

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 06:42:00 -0400
Subject: Re: (no subject)

>If an intake did exist for an olds port fuel injection system, wouldn't
>the "brain" of the fuel injection system have to be "mapped" for whatever
>specific cam, intake, head, piston (compression ratio), fuel, gearing,
>etc. combination that the system would be used for -- or are these
>just things that can be programmed into the brain (chip)?

     Yes, but that is not too far fetched these days, aftermarket suppliers
are finally catching up to that realization.

>Also, I read an article in (I think it was) Boater's World where they
>tested the power and fuel economy of fuel injection vs. carburetors.  At
>least in boats, the article said that a "properly" tuned carburetor was
>capable of more power and more fuel efficiency than the fuel injection
>unit.  Now I'm not arguing either way here but I am hoping that some of
>you might have read some articles that would shed some light on this
>subject for autos.  It may have been that the fuel injection system used
>in the boat test was a unit that was set up for only a few "popular sized
>boats" of specific weights and prop combos and this system just happend
>to be on a boat with different weight and or prop combo or engine size --
>thus affecting its efficiency.

     While some carb's may be able to produce more power, or at least more
airflow than some EFI setups, the advantages are there.  The EFI has the
potential for constant feedback allowing for constant maximum efficiency.
The carbs are tuned with three basic circuits: idle, main metering, and
power.  These can all be manipulated with proper tuning tactics, and can
become reasonably efficient and powerful, but the EFI can provide maximum
power and maximum efficiency AT ALL TIMES.  This is a very powerful (hyuk,
hyuk) argument for EFI.
     No sticking floats, no plugged jets, not ~Rejetting~ for altitude
changes, no vulgarities from dumping gas all over your intake after pulling
the float bowl to do last minute adjustments internally at the track, no
need for excess gas to get pumped through the exhaust valves as HC's because
of over-rich conditions, no sticking floats...
     Need I go on?

     Oh yeah, no more money, but there's nothing cooler than seeing that
nice polished intake plenum jutting out in the center of the engine
compartment like something out of an F-16...

     PS, No need to machine that really cool "Rocket" emblem Air Cleaner
WingNut you'd always figured you'd want if you didn't have EFI! :o (OK, so
I'm getting carried away, here!)       :)

                   |
           ________|________
          {        |        } Charley Buehner
          {        |        } "Rockit 1"
          {        |        } buehner@cis.nmclites.edu
          {        |        } http://www.nmclites.edu/~buehner
          {        |        }
          {        |        }
          {        |        }
          {        |        }
          {       /|\       }   "There's no replacement
          {     /  |  \     }        for displacement..."
          {   /    |    \   }
          { /      |      \ }
          {       ]|[       }
          {       ]|[       }
          {       ]^[       }
          {       ]^[       }
          """"""""]^[""""""""
                   ^
                   ^

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 06:42:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Ideas

>In the same vein as an earlier message, I wonder if this would be
>possible.  I noticed that some company makes Cadillac intake spacers that
>allow you to fit a Ford 429/460 intake onto a Cadillac bigblock.  I
>wonder if it would be possible to make spacers to fit Chevrolet intakes
>onto Olds engines?  If such an item were available, imagine the
>possibilities!

     Sure, great plan, but the ~last~ thing I'd want to see when I open the
hood is the word ~Chevrolaids~ or anything close to it~  I guess you'd have
to grind that off!  It'd likely work, tho', especially for big blocks. :o :>
:)
                   |
           ________|________
          {        |        } Charley Buehner
          {        |        } "Rockit 1"
          {        |        } buehner@cis.nmclites.edu
          {        |        } http://www.nmclites.edu/~buehner
          {        |        }
          {        |        }
          {        |        }
          {        |        }
          {       /|\       }   "There's no replacement
          {     /  |  \     }        for displacement..."
          {   /    |    \   }
          { /      |      \ }
          {       ]|[       }
          {       ]|[       }
          {       ]^[       }
          {       ]^[       }
          """"""""]^[""""""""
                   ^
                   ^

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 07:01:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Ideas and NEW FUEL PUMP!!

I actually have the catalog that has that spacer (Cadillac
>Motorsports Development...or was it MTS, I forget...I'm still toying with
>the idea of putting a
>500" Cad big block into a 78 Malibu...)

     I met a guy in Canon City, CO a number of years ago that did quite
similar.  If I remember right it was a 472 in a Malibu around '85 or so.
(Same car ~and~ engine, I think)  He said the swap kit was available
somewhere, (no clue where) but it was the entire kit.  (Motor mounts, I
guess.  I don't know what Caddy's tranny setup is like.)  Anyway, I ran him
light to light, and he didn't give me much competition, as I recall.
('Course, nobody ~recalls~ anything that DOES!)  I had my 350 in then, with
Comp Cams 280 Magnum, Rhoads, Offy Dual Port, and 2.29 Rearend.  He had no
air cleaner.  I don't know how much comparison can be assumed here, but the
last point stuck in my mind.  No air cleaner!!!!  (Not for HP reasons, he
just didn't figure he needed one.)  The engine was fairly stock, I guess,
but it represented an interesting idea anyway.
                   |
           ________|________
          {        |        } Charley Buehner
          {        |        } "Rockit 1"
          {        |        } buehner@cis.nmclites.edu
          {        |        } http://www.nmclites.edu/~buehner
          {        |        }
          {        |        }
          {        |        }
          {        |        }
          {       /|\       }   "There's no replacement
          {     /  |  \     }        for displacement..."
          {   /    |    \   }
          { /      |      \ }
          {       ]|[       }
          {       ]|[       }
          {       ]^[       }
          {       ]^[       }
          """"""""]^[""""""""
                   ^
                   ^

------------------------------

From: <mikehal1@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 08:12:42 -0400
Subject: Re: The Details...

>you dont happen to know where there is a deep sump olds oil pan or
>Toronado pan anywehre do you?


Paul,

I found my Toro pan by calling around from the ads in JWO. About 20
calls later, I had my pan. I know Chris Witt had one, maybe he might
sell it to you now if he hasn't already used it...

Good Luck in the search.

BTW - make sure you grab the pickup tube too as depth and location are
different on the Toro pan.

Regards,
Mike


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Michael R. Hall               Ortonville, Michigan
E-Mail: mikehal1@ix.netcom.com
Owner: 1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass S, 380 horses of pure Mondello fun...
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

------------------------------

From: <mikehal1@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 08:12:38 -0400
Subject: Re: (no subject)

>If an intake did exist for an olds port fuel injection system, wouldn't
>the "brain" of the fuel injection system have to be "mapped" for whatever
>specific cam, intake, head, piston (compression ratio), fuel, gearing,
>etc. combination that the system would be used for -- or are these
>just things that can be programmed into the brain (chip)?
>
>Also, I read an article in (I think it was) Boater's World where they
>tested the power and fuel economy of fuel injection vs. carburetors.  At
>least in boats, the article said that a "properly" tuned carburetor was
>capable of more power and more fuel efficiency than the fuel injection
>unit.


Doug,

A module comes with the Holley and Barry Grant systems. This module,
placed inside the car allows you to "dial" the TBI in to your needs
(street/strip). These modules are basically custom jetting at the touch
of a knob inside the cabin of your car.

As far as boats go, these are entirely different animals, er,
engines... My smallblock, producing peak Torque in the 5500 RPM range
would be a extremely poor boat engine. You want peak torque to occur
2500 RPM lower but still develop the same amount of horsepower. This is
why max-bored bigblocks are the engines of choice as they build Torque
quicker due to their displacement. As far as the power arguement goes,
I agree. In racing, you get more power from  carbs. For fuel economy
and streetability, fuel injection is the way to go especially if you
have a real lopey cam.


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Michael R. Hall               Ortonville, Michigan
E-Mail: mikehal1@ix.netcom.com
Owner: 1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass S, 380 horses of pure Mondello fun...
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

------------------------------

From: tbmarq@mayhem.b23a.ingr.com (Tom Marquis)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:23:15 -0400
Subject: RE: fuel injection

>
> you are absolutely correct there. any kind of electronic fuel injection
setup > would need to have its own specially programmed computer chip that was
setup > for the specific combination that you would be using.  that's why if
you look > in a Hypertech catalog, for instance, there are at least 5 or 6
different chips > for every year camaro due to different engine sizes, types
of fuel inj. used, > transmission, etc. > > this is not to say it couldn't
be done.  I don't think it would be a problem to > have someone custom program
a computer chip to work with your setup, but it > would be pretty expensive.

It is my understanding that this is true for MAP (speed density) systems
because they calculate airflow instead of measuring it. MAF systems are less
sensive to changes such as CAM etc. Although any major change will require a
new chip.  But the orginal poster had 330. If it were not too radical a 350
TPI system would improve both low end torque and efficency right out of the
box.

TomM

P.S. One of the big draw backs of MAF systems is that the air flow sensor is
restrictive, therefore limiting it to mild performance applications. Although,
I just saw an add for an aftermarket high flow sensor the other day. The other
drawback is MAF sensors are expensive.

------------------------------

From: tbmarq@mayhem.b23a.ingr.com (Tom Marquis)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:34:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Ideas

> In the same vein as an earlier message, I wonder if this would be
> possible.  I noticed that some company makes Cadillac intake spacers that
> allow you to fit a Ford 429/460 intake onto a Cadillac bigblock.  I
> wonder if it would be possible to make spacers to fit Chevrolet intakes
> onto Olds engines?  If such an item were available, imagine the
> possibilities!

I havn't had an olds apart for years, are the intake runners on the head
the same pattern as a chevy?

	0  00  0

or

	0 0 0 0

?

Either way it's probably a go because the new chevy heads are evenly spaced
and intakes are availible.

I need to call Lingenfelter anyway, I'll ask him about olds intakes.


TomM

------------------------------

From: gludlam@bcinet.net (Gregg Ludlam)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:39:31 -0400
Subject: Re: fuel system

>Haha that my friend is but a dream...there isn't a single Olds-specific
>aftermarket fuel injection. To think that someone would tool up to cast
>Olds lowers for TPI is kind of far fetched...

Whoa...what about Holley's new do-dad that's basically a throttle-body
injection system/fuel pump/tunable computer that'll bolt in place of any
2bbl or 4bbl application?  I know it's not port-injection, but it IS fuel
injection...


- -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:45:27 -0400
Subject: Olds fuel injection manifolds


          OK, a couple of ideas.

          The first is something I've wanted to try for some time but
          never got around to.  The original Cadillac Seville (circa
          1976-77) used a 350 Olds motor with one of the first
          electronic fuel injection setups.  Keep in mind that the
          original Seville was based on the Nova/Camaro floor pan. I
          believe it was a port injection unit, as opposed to a TBI.
          The manifold was cast iron (ugh) but if you could find one
          it would bolt to any 260-307-330-350-403.  The reason I
          never pursued it is I only have big blocks.  I think there
          are a number of aftermarket shops which build programmable
          fuel injection computers these days - you can set the fuel
          map with a laptop while you drive.

          Secondly, the much-maligned latest issue of Hot Rod (at
          least, I think it was the latest issue) had an article about
          converting old constant-flow mechanical fuel injection units
          to EFI.  The conversion is big bucks (about $3500!) but it
          looks cool and runs great.  I was lucky enough to find an
          old Algon eight-stack injector manifold for a big block Olds
          at a swap meet in SoCal years ago (don't even think about
          asking if it is for sale) and am saving up for the
          conversion.  If nothing else, it would be worth contacting
          some of the vendors listed in the article for more
          information.

          Finally, many of the vendors noted above will also convert
          aftermarket 4BBL manifolds to TPI by welding fittings for
          injector valves onto the runners.  I even think kits are
          available for skilled do-it-yourselfers.  These units also
          use aftermarket computers which are programmable.

          I hope this helps.  I'd like to know if anyone has used the
          Seville EFI unit before.

          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: Dan Dale <daleds@okra.millsaps.edu>
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 12:07:06 -0400
Subject: RE: fuel injection

>
>P.S. One of the big draw backs of MAF systems is that the air flow sensor is
>restrictive, therefore limiting it to mild performance applications.
Although, I just >saw an add for an aftermarket high flow sensor the other
day. The other drawback is >MAF sensors are expensive.

they really aren't that expensive....around $150 for a stock one.  I think
their benefits really outweigh the drawbacks....although they are somewhat
restrictive, they are easily modified to where they barely impede the airflow.
I've also got an '87 350 tpi IROC with a maf that I have removed the screens
and most of the cooing fins on....a maf system is much more adaptable to
engine changes than a map sensor b/c map sensors depend on the computer chip
programming to adjust the engine whereas the maf can more readily adapt itself
to changs such as cam, intake, etc. b/c it can "read" the higher airflow and
compensate for a larger degree of change. I hope I'm making sense here, I'm
not quite sure how to explain it best.

Dan Dale

------------------------------

From: Rod Rickenbach <rod@hopi.dtcc.edu>
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 11:47:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Olds fuel injection manifolds

On Fri, 1 Mar 1996 JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com wrote:

>
>           OK, a couple of ideas.
>
>           The first is something I've wanted to try for some time but
>           never got around to.  The original Cadillac Seville (circa
>           1976-77) used a 350 Olds motor with one of the first
>           electronic fuel injection setups.  Keep in mind that the
>           original Seville was based on the Nova/Camaro floor pan. I
>           believe it was a port injection unit, as opposed to a TBI.
>           The manifold was cast iron (ugh) but if you could find one
>           it would bolt to any 260-307-330-350-403.  The reason I
>           never pursued it is I only have big blocks.  I think there
>           are a number of aftermarket shops which build programmable
>           fuel injection computers these days - you can set the fuel
>           map with a laptop while you drive.

No -the intake manifold is aluminum.  I have one in my shed. :)  Anyone
wanna buy it?

This unit actually is a multi-port FI, not a throttle body FI, ie it has
8 injectors - one for each cyl...

- -Rod
-
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
    Rod Rickenbach                                       Delaware Tech
     rod@dtcc.edu                                 Computer Services Department
http://www.dtcc.edu/~rod                            Stanton/Wilmington Campus

------------------------------

From: urbanch@magi.com (Chris Urban)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 14:02:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Olds fuel injection manifolds

How much?

>
>No -the intake manifold is aluminum.  I have one in my shed. :)  Anyone
>wanna buy it?
>
>This unit actually is a multi-port FI, not a throttle body FI, ie it has
>8 injectors - one for each cyl...
>
>-Rod
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- >    Rod Rickenbach                                       Delaware Tech >
rod@dtcc.edu                                 Computer Services Department
>http://www.dtcc.edu/~rod                            Stanton/Wilmington Campus 
> > > >

------------------------------

From: urbanch@magi.com (Chris Urban)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 14:02:02 -0400
Subject: Re: The Details...

Paul I have about 8 of them. Let me know if you want one.


>>you dont happen to know where there is a deep sump olds oil pan or
>>Toronado pan anywehre do you?
>
>
>Paul,
>
>I found my Toro pan by calling around from the ads in JWO. About 20
>calls later, I had my pan. I know Chris Witt had one, maybe he might
>sell it to you now if he hasn't already used it...
>
>Good Luck in the search.
>
>BTW - make sure you grab the pickup tube too as depth and location are
>different on the Toro pan.
>
>Regards,
>Mike
>
>
><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>Michael R. Hall               Ortonville, Michigan
>E-Mail: mikehal1@ix.netcom.com
>Owner: 1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass S, 380 horses of pure Mondello fun...
><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: urbanch@magi.com (Chris Urban)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 14:02:09 -0400
Subject: RE: fuel injection

>Along these same lines. I think it would be a good idea to mass E-mail
Edelbrock with your wants and desires for them to manufacture something of
this sort. They are already designing Olds aluminum heads due to everyones
input. The squeaky wheel ..... you know. While you at it mention a better
selection of cams like rollers etc.

------------------------------

From: urbanch@magi.com (Chris Urban)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 14:01:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Ideas

Interesting idea but the spacers would be huge. You would have sealing
problems and runner alignment problems and possibly coolant leakage
problems, other than that it sounds great. Maybe a more similar intake would
be a closer fit like say Pontiac?


>In the same vein as an earlier message, I wonder if this would be
>possible.  I noticed that some company makes Cadillac intake spacers that
>allow you to fit a Ford 429/460 intake onto a Cadillac bigblock.  I
>wonder if it would be possible to make spacers to fit Chevrolet intakes
>onto Olds engines?  If such an item were available, imagine the
>possibilities!
>
>%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
> revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
> information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
> Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
> been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
>%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: tbmarq@mayhem.b23a.ingr.com (Tom Marquis)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 14:08:36 -0400
Subject: RE: fuel injection

> >
> >P.S. One of the big draw backs of MAF systems is that the air flow sensor
is > >restrictive, therefore limiting it to mild performance applications.
Although, I just > >saw an add for an aftermarket high flow sensor the other
day. The other drawback is > >MAF sensors are expensive. > > they really
aren't that expensive....around $150 for a stock one.  I think > their
benefits really outweigh the drawbacks....although they are somewhat >
restrictive, they are easily modified to where they barely impede the airflow. 
>
I've also got an '87 350 tpi IROC with a maf that I have removed the screens >
and most of the cooing fins on....a maf system is much more adaptable to
engine > changes than a map sensor b/c map sensors depend on the computer chip 
>
programming to adjust the engine whereas the maf can more readily adapt itself 
>
to changs such as cam, intake, etc. b/c it can "read" the higher airflow and >
compensate for a larger degree of change. I hope I'm making sense here, I'm
not > quite sure how to explain it best. > > Dan Dale > >

Dan I understand and agree with you. My 350 TPI supposedly came from a 89
IROC, I would love to discuss this more with you but it has little to do with
oldsmobiles, so here is my email address tbmarq@ingr.com.

I think I may have some parts that are mixed up or non-standard 89 parts. I've
checked the parts with GM and Street and Performance and something is amiss.

TomM
tbmarq@ingr.com

P.S. GM qouted me $370.00 for a new sensor.

------------------------------

From: david.chontofalsky@mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 14:01:31 -0400
Subject: Looking for good quarters

I have a 1974 Hurst (Y77) Pace edition and I am in need of some kind of
solution to rot around the rear wheel opening lip.  Is there a remedy for this
on those colonade body coupes? David

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 14:10:19 -0400
Subject: Olds Fuel Injection

Very intersting and informative discussion. . .

Holley ProJection:
Well, it's Throttle Body Injection, very much like a carb, but you can tune
it somewhat.  I've been told, and it makes sense, to avoid the knob tunable
and get the PC tunable (digital) for best results.  With the PC tunable you
can alter and tune the fuel map and it is a closed loop system.  Various
sensors provide feedback to the computer to adjust the fuel.  The open loop
(knob tunable) units are open loop - basically a carb.

I was seriously considering the PC (PJ4) setup, and have asked as many
people as possible about it.  No one has said anything good about the knob
tunable version.

BG (Barry Grant) VFI:
Venturi Fuel Injection.  Check out March Car Craft for a review.  Its a
Holley 750 (double pumper?) (although they also showed a second unit that
looked like a Dominator casting) with 2 injectors per side, spraying
horizontally, with venturies.  Benefits of a carb's venturies and the fine
spray of fuel injection.

They did a quick test on a blt BB.  It out performed a carb on the same
engine.  They didn't go into any detail on the carb setup (could have been
mild or a pro streeter), and the hp and torque chart only mapped from 5000
- - 7000 (I think BG might be on to something big or there is not low RPM
power), but it showed a 100 hp and torque gain at 5000.  The steepness of
the curve toward low RPM looks promising.  More info is needed, but I'm
sure it won't be long.

Olds PFI Intake:
Like someone said there is no after market, unless you customize a carb
intake.  Olds made a small block Port Fuel Injection intake (w/ analog
computer and special dist. - ran bad, but could convert with an after
market tunable PFI computer) a ways back.  Power is maximized in PFI setups
with equal length intake runners.  My .02 here, consult a fuel injection
basics book and determine your application before spending any cash.

David Brown
dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu    (312) 702-9157
"Oldsmobile - powerful roadsters with big V8s"

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 14:14:59 -0400
Subject: Olds Port Fuel Injection Notes

I received this information from a subscriber on the hot rod mailing list.
Very interesting.

David Brown
dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu    (312) 702-9157
"Oldsmobile - powerful roadsters with big V8s"
- -------------------------------

OLDSMOBILE PORT FUEL INJECTION
Port fuel injection was available from about 76-8? on the 350 Olds motor
used in Toronado's, Cadillac Seville and Eldorados.  Unfortunately,
there is no stock big block FI intake.  You MIGHT be able to make one
fit with adapters to compensate for the added deck height.

The computer was a analog unit that was located in the center of the
dashboard.   It is a regular Olds 350, with a different PFI intake and
distributor.   They are VERY OFTEN converted to carbs because the system
ran like garbage and were also known to catching on fire, due to some
questionable rubber hose they used for the pressurized fuel line.

The manifold is a very low profile dual plane type.  Sort of like a
Weiland X-cellerator, but MUCH flatter.   Looks like it should flow
pretty good for a mild street motor.

The system was most likely bank fired (4 at a time).  There was no crank
sensor, so it couldn't be sequential.  There was a sensor in the
distributor housing that indicated 1 pulse per 1 rev of the distributor.
It is a closed loop system.  About as good as an analog FI system gets.
The system is covered in several books that relate to automotive
electronics/history.

One of the biggest design flaws was mounting the intake air temp sensor
in the manifold where it was affected by heat from the egr valve and
cooling system - not good.  These cars didn't tend to run that good.

If reusing the original 70's ECM, you would need the PFI dist - the
distributor is unique to this analog ECM.  It's been verified from
several people that the output from the 7-wire module is the same as the
module from a TPI distributor, so a GM TPI ECU could be used.

One would probably be able to use any GM V-8 (firing order 18436572) TPI
(not SFI) ECM (to start with, then roll your own, or use some other
aftermarket Chevy TPI setup.  To my knowledge, the TPI (85-89 at least)
system just does 1 bank on one spark pulse, and the other bank on the
next.

The beauty in the TPI ECM - since it is *NOT* sequential (injectors fire
one at a time in relation to each cylinder), there doesn't need to be
any device to determine TDC of cylinder 1.

Also, it's been said that sequential will only really be a noticeable
advantage over bank at low speeds.  Much above 3000 rpm the difference
is negotiable.

If you are looking for one of the above cars with this setup, they
usually had an "Electonic Fuel Injection" badge on the fenders and
grille.   Ask around at some repair shops.

------------------------------

From: tbmarq@mayhem.b23a.ingr.com (Tom Marquis)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 14:24:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Olds fuel injection manifolds

>
> No -the intake manifold is aluminum.  I have one in my shed. :)  Anyone
> wanna buy it?
>
> This unit actually is a multi-port FI, not a throttle body FI, ie it has
> 8 injectors - one for each cyl...
>
> -Rod
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- >     Rod Rickenbach                                       Delaware Tech >
rod@dtcc.edu                                 Computer Services Department >
http://www.dtcc.edu/~rod                            Stanton/Wilmington Campus >
 >

Wow. Is it simialr to the current TPI intakes. Could it be addapted?
Would it even need to be? Sounds to me like all you need are the distributer,
wiring harness, sensors and computer off a new TPI system. Realatively cheap
stuff.

What does it look like, are the runners long or short?

TomM

Never say never.

------------------------------

From: tbmarq@mayhem.b23a.ingr.com (Tom Marquis)
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 14:40:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Olds Port Fuel Injection Notes

> aftermarket Chevy TPI setup.  To my knowledge, the TPI (85-89 at least)
> system just does 1 bank on one spark pulse, and the other bank on the
> next.

It's my understanding that the TPI systems were batch fire MAF from 85-88
and batch fire MAP from 89-93 and sequencial fire MAF with MAP backup from
94 up.

TomM

------------------------------

From: Rod Rickenbach <rod@hopi.dtcc.edu>
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 17:17:48 -0400
Subject: Olds Port Fuel Injection For Sale

On Fri, 1 Mar 1996, David Brown wrote:

Here's my reply about the Olds FI Intake.  I had a flood of inquiries, so
I am sending out a mass reply that hopefuly answers everyone's
questions...

> OLDSMOBILE PORT FUEL INJECTION
> Port fuel injection was available from about 76-8? on the 350 Olds motor
> used in Toronado's, Cadillac Seville and Eldorados.  Unfortunately,
> there is no stock big block FI intake.  You MIGHT be able to make one
> fit with adapters to compensate for the added deck height.

And width of the block.  I've thought about it.  It should be possible to
do - How easy/expensive is another matter.

> The computer was a analog unit that was located in the center of the
> dashboard.   It is a regular Olds 350, with a different PFI intake and
> distributor.   They are VERY OFTEN converted to carbs because the system
> ran like garbage and were also known to catching on fire, due to some
> questionable rubber hose they used for the pressurized fuel line.

My friend used to work at an Olds dealership and told me how great these
cars were - lots of low end torque aka "balls". ;)

> The manifold is a very low profile dual plane type.  Sort of like a
> Weiland X-cellerator, but MUCH flatter.   Looks like it should flow
> pretty good for a mild street motor.

Sounds right, never took the throttle body (airflow thingie :) off to
have a good look.

> The system was most likely bank fired (4 at a time).  There was no crank
> sensor, so it couldn't be sequential.  There was a sensor in the
> distributor housing that indicated 1 pulse per 1 rev of the distributor.
> It is a closed loop system.  About as good as an analog FI system gets.
> The system is covered in several books that relate to automotive
> electronics/history.

Most likely batch fired, since GM didn't have SFI till much later.

> If reusing the original 70's ECM, you would need the PFI dist - the
> distributor is unique to this analog ECM.  It's been verified from
> several people that the output from the 7-wire module is the same as the
> module from a TPI distributor, so a GM TPI ECU could be used.
>
> One would probably be able to use any GM V-8 (firing order 18436572) TPI
> (not SFI) ECM (to start with, then roll your own, or use some other
> aftermarket Chevy TPI setup.  To my knowledge, the TPI (85-89 at least)
> system just does 1 bank on one spark pulse, and the other bank on the
> next.
>
> The beauty in the TPI ECM - since it is *NOT* sequential (injectors fire
> one at a time in relation to each cylinder), there doesn't need to be
> any device to determine TDC of cylinder 1.
>
> Also, it's been said that sequential will only really be a noticeable
> advantage over bank at low speeds.  Much above 3000 rpm the difference
> is negotiable.

I have the intake, throttle body/air flow meter/whatever it's called on
these things (looks like a carb, (two venturi, no idea of the flow rate)
has a TPS on it...) with all stock injectors, etc.  No electronic control
module, no distributor, just manifold with the wiring harness cut off.
This was going to be a DIY Olds FI project which would require a new DFI
module to run everything, so I didn't bother fishing out the old wiring
harness, but I cut enough to be able to have usefull splices to everything
that's there. I have no idea of the airflow characteristics, or the
injector flow rates.  I imagine both of these pieces could be converted
from something else that would flow enough air/fuel to power even the
nastiest small block... I hope I answered any questions.

As for price, send me some offers! :)

- -Rod
-
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
    Rod Rickenbach                                       Delaware Tech
     rod@dtcc.edu                                 Computer Services Department
http://www.dtcc.edu/~rod                            Stanton/Wilmington Campus

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #106
********************************
