
oldsmobile-digest           Tuesday, 28 May 1996        Volume 01 : Number 187


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 20:00:51 -0300
Subject: Friday's Misc?

>           Yes, I get sick every time I see one of these ads.  As it
>           turns out, the W-27 housing is significantly weaker than the
>           iron one.  Here's a hot tip for a low-cost, higher-strength
>           W-27 replica:
>
>           Get your stock, non-W-27 housing center section aluminum
>           sprayed!  Basicly this is a process wherein alumunim is

HEY!!!  I *like* this plan! Looks correct, not just painted, but has the
strength of an iron center section... Yes! -Chris-

> What year Toros had this 7 bladed fan? Will it improve the cooling on my 69 44
2?

I forget- various years. When I did the 403=>260 car, I went to the boneyard,
measured & counted blades, got the biggest 7-bladed unit there was. Not nec. a
Toro unit... though them XP-784's do tend to have the bad boys...  And, yes,
properly installed, it will surely do better than a lesser fan.
 -Chris-

> You cannot beat the instant throttle response of a good Olds 2V setup....
> depends on what rear gears you end up with, but if the gears are the same, kee
> the 2V setup, I say...
>           No, sorry, I've got to disagree with this one.  Keep in mind
>           the carb design and sizing is, by definintion, a compromise
>           to maintain airflow velocity and fuel atomization over the
>           operating range of the engine.  Any 2bbl carb will of
>           necessity have venturies which are too big at low rpm (when
>           you stomp on it) and too small at high rpm.  The Q-Jet (or

Well, having owned & driven both, I still think the throttle response of the 2V
is always instantaneous. Never a wait for the back barrels to kick in... Maybe
it was just that the 2V cars I had, notably a 69 Cutlass, had the 2-speed
Jetaway, and a diff ratio well matched to the engine/ trans combo... But, while
my 4V cars had more overall punch [probably due to a point higher compression,
etc...] than a similar 2V car, for most driving, for all but WOT stoplight
drags, the 2V cars were the most fun to drive.

>           atomization, good gas milage, good throttle response at low
                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Heh, compared to what? When I had a Qjet at my disposal, I tended to use them
big old back barrels, and the car generally had more like 3.90 gears, so
mileage was not 'good'.

>           secondary air valve, linkage not set properly, etc...).  My
>           experience has been that when properly adjusted, the Q-Jet
>           provides a very satisfying response to a mashed pedal,
>           especially when the secondaries open up!
>           Joe Padavano

Sure, fully open... but for most driving, it's hardly worth a lot of effort/$
to change to 4V... now, if it's only a LITTLE effort/$, then, sure, why not?
- -Chris-

> Maybe they think that the average driver _might_ figure out that "GEN"
> might have something to do with GENerating electricity, whereas "ALT"
> would probably leave them baffled.

CTRL-ALT-DEL to restart your car... :)

> My gripe is GM's stupid decision to spell "gauge" as "gage" everywhere --
> Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431

Hey, no need to get so torked [sic] off! -Chris-

> Yes, I was at once considering using a standard cam with roller lifters when
> I rebuild my engine (work is slated to begin before the next century ;-) ).
> Your observations, however, never entered my mind.  It would be interesting
> to see what kind of difference changing just the lifters from standard to
> roller in the same engine would make.  Might be a good idea to build an
> engine that way, might not.
> Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme

Well, that settles it, then! :)  Or, not. After I get a block on a stand here
again, I'll have to investigate a bit... -Chris-

> Now Chris, I'm going to take issue with you here. I know the service
> manual says the pan has to come off to remove the timing cover. I also
> know you have done it without doing that. Regardless, if you do want to
> refresh the oil pump and the timing set then the pan has to come off. So
> those prices are parts only, right? No value for labor...

*checks the list* Yep, correct, no labor in there. If you pay someone else to
do this sort of thing, labor GENERALLY just about equals parts cost. As a crude
rule of thumb. Very crude.

> Trouble is, I have yet to talk with anyone who has found a foolproof way
> to make the 2-bbl work properly for any length of time. I'm on my second
> rebuilt in just a couple of years. Thing still misbehaves. Go with the
> 4-bbl, I say.
> Must be brave today, disagreeing with *the* Rocket Scientist!
> Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

Hey, it's all opinions, I don't insist anyone agree with me, nor that I am
always right [drag race ET for instance]. I just present my opinion, and the
supporting evidence if any. I.e., I have never SEEN a solid main web 403, nor
has anyone else that I have spoken with *personally* seen one. So, while I
cannot rule out their existance, I can doubt it if I like. And I do.
  I have had a few 2V Olds setups, performed flawlessly. The chief difficulty I
have found is when some joker gets the idea to 'improve' the carb by rebuilding
it, then puts in the gaskets that have passages that leak air right in from the
outside... carb base to center section gaskets. About 80% of the rebuilt units
I have seen have this flaw. When I did my 3-2V carbs, I used the gaskets that
MATCHED the carbs, though the other gaskets were included... dunno what
application they are for. -Chris-

> Also re. my previous post, I'm assuming you can't pull the pan on an Olds
> V-8 as installed in an A-body without lifting the engine, thereby
> fluffing up the labor costs by a considerable margin. Has anyone found a
> way to do this with the engine still installed?
> Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

Service manual details how to do timing cover with oil pan in place. You have
to modify the pan/cover seal a bit, and, in my experience, struggle alot and
use a BFH and prybar. It CAN be done, but not easily. I did remove the oil pan,
and in fact, the engine bearings, from a 350 in a LeMans by just jacking up the
engine. Was still easier than pulling the engine for the 6th time, just to
change bearings. Which died, btw, from oil starvation from *guess what*
clogging up the oil pump inlet...  -Chris-

>           Well, the 69 H/O air cleaner top used the top pan, flapper
>           door, and actuator from a Ford Cobra Jet.  And just to show
>           that turnabout is fair play, the 1969 (I think) Super Cobra
>           Jet 429 used a Q-Jet carb!
>           Joe Padavano

the things you learn on this list! -Chris-

> Thanks Rocket Scientist
> for the advice on my two Olds ('69 Cutlass S and '71 C/S Convt).
>
> Roughly $400 for the '71 350 engine going into the '69 beater Cutlass,
> since I'll probably reuse the cams from the '71 engine to save some $.
> This is ok, but I really don't want to spend any more than necesary for
> this engine refreshment. Am I making a mistake by reusing the cam?

Well, inspect, have your local machinist inspect/ measure, etc. It's up to
you and your budget. Engine Service Group has cam & lifter for about $100, so a
cam is only about $65 more than lifters alone... I have re-used them with
success on low-budget rebuilds. Lifters are hardly worth cleaning at $35 a
set... and tend to wear on the bottom anyhw, and can't use old ones on a new
cam...

> Roughly $500 for all rebuild items for '69 350 engine going into the '71
> Convertible.
> I'm willing to spend what it takes on this one but still want to keep the
> cost under control as much as possible.

A lot depends on whether the bores measure still serviceable, or need to be
cleaned up... if you have to bore it, you are looking at new pistons, about
$3-400 more...

> I could just do the timing chain and clean out the oil pan
> but it seems like a golden opportunity with the engine out of the car
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
a.k.a. "shipwright's disease" or the "mitaswells"...

> to just go ahead with the rebuild. This engine has 120K miles now.
> What do you think about holding off on the valve job or any of the other items
> on this one to a later date?  This '69 350 runs quite well now.

If the engine is apart, do a valve job. No doubt.

> I'm wondering if you might recommend sources for the parts because
> your estimates seem lower than what i've seen in the mail order
> catalogs I have.  (I have Supercars Unlimited and Year One catalogs.)
> Year One doesn't even have most of the engine parts either.

See, ya got the wrong sources there. Check what they want for a Crome-moly oil
pump drive rod that I sell for $10... $5 in bulk... You need to see Bryceman's
web page, where the likes of Engine Service Group, Performance Automotive
Warehouse [see any hot-roddy magazine], National Automotive lines, etc. are
shown... As per usual, it's almost always best to buy what you need in a KIT
form all from one vendor, though I tend to use Mondello for hard to find items
like rubber main seals, HP cams, etc.

> Also, I have most of the the basic mechanics tools but lack anything
> specific for engine rebuilds.  What tools are essential and what might
> be nice to have?  I need to budget for this too.
>       -John Bartusek

Essential: Tork wrench, tightening pattern diagrams. Ridge reamer, cylinder
hone, cam bearing installation tools... [unless you have the shop do these- more
economical and faster unless you do more than 2-3 engines...]  Grinder/ wire
brush to clean bolts, etc. Taps to clean the bolt holes: 1/4, 5/16, 3/8, 7/16,
1/2". Ring compressor, ring expander.
  Many of these can be rented, too. The ring expander you can technically do
w/o, but the chance of breaking a ring or three is far greater if you install
them by hand... Then you get to buy a few more rings...
  I prolly left out a few tools, others can fill in...

> I have been looking for a donor car for 455 for '49 Coupe I am street
> rodding.  I am not looking for a super hot engine just a hefty runner.  How
> would a 455 from a 1975 98 do?
> I would appreciate a fast get back since I am going to look at it tonight.

I'd rate it 'darn near adequate.' J heads, smogger intake, very low
compression [about 8.0:1], etc. Weak cast crank, not even Nodular at that. Only
good point is the big size. See the FAQ for the correct engine to get. Of
course, that engine, with a spicer cam & intake, re-ring, shave the heads about
0.060", and then you'd have a respectable unit. Not a Toro or W30 motor, but a
nice driveable unit that could use regular gas. -Chris-

> > Mike:
> > So, Cutlass driver's are curious about brake pads?  :-)  Kinda funny!
> (I didn't get that - MRF)

I guess them Ford guys figure that we don't need to slow down much...

> 7 bladed props with the silicone clutch came in all 66-67 Toros with A/C as
> standard. Whether I have air or not, I put one in right away whenever I get
> another Toro. They might have come in later years, but I'm not sure.
>
> If you replace a standard blade with a 7 blade, be sure to get the spacer
> with it. The spacer is shorter with 7 blades as are the bolts. The 7 bladed
> prop will not fit with a standard spacer and bolts. It will hit the radiator!
> Greg K.

Spacer? SPACER? You telling us you don't use a fan clutch? -Chris-

> From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
> Subject: Cam number
> Anyone know the specs of cam #401348?  From a 70 Cutlass SX.

Paul, since others cannot find that cam listed... is it the cam CASTING number?
that #, found on the casting itself, bears little or no relation to the grind
performed on the lobes. Cam use was identified chiefly by the pattern of
Chamfers on the front OD, the location of the nothces on the front face, and
occasionally they wer kind enough to actually put the last 3 digits of the cam
PART # on the back of the cam. Rare, but my '569' cam has this.
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 20:14:57 -0300
Subject: 403 bearings, etc.

> From: OLDSPWR@aol.com
> Subject: Need some 403 help...
> --copper bearings--
> While removing the rod caps, I noticed that they are all pointing in all
> differents directions.  One side of the cap has a 45 angle while the other
> has a 90.  So it would seem that the two 90's should face each other and the

Not nec. so. Been my experience that both 'tang sides' go together- rod & cap.
Other shapes, angles, etc. do not matter. Since each rod/cap is machined as a
unit, the caps MUST not be installed backwards. To do so usually locks up the
engine due to the slightly different offset that the bolts have wrt the journal
hole.

> bearings are all out of wack.  Do they face the inside or outside of the
> block (I think the outside).  I have some facing the outside and some facing

lubrication spit hole, if present, must face cam/ opposite side of engine.

> Best way is to rip that baby apart and do it right. Oh yeah, never trust =
> ANY machine shops work esspecially as far as OLDS are concerned, there =
> just aren't enough knowledgeable (about OLDS) machinists around.

I concur. Can probably get by with just putting new bearings in. Don't forget
the break-in lube as you assemble.
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 01:11:44 -0300
Subject: Re: Misc Stuff 

In a message dated 96-05-26 17:48:13 EDT, you write:

>Well, on my 455 with small-dish pistons... I cut the valve guides to fit
>teflon
>seals and to accomodate the higher cam lift. I ended up with about 0.030"
>retainer-guide clearance on a cam with about .520 lift... with a good 0.200"
>yet to go before valve-piston interference. This is with uncut K heads and a
>gasket of 0.040-0.045" thick- typical. Rocker was nowhere near the end of
its
>travel either. -Chris-
>--

Are these teflon seals much better? What is the source for them? My 7a's are
at the machine shop, and I'd like to get them done right the first time. The
original little caps look like they could be improved upon.

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 01:11:47 -0300
Subject: PST Engine Rebuild kits (was Re: Friday's Misc?) 

In a message dated 96-05-26 19:07:15 EDT, you write:

>> I'm wondering if you might recommend sources for the parts because
>> your estimates seem lower than what i've seen in the mail order
>> catalogs I have.  (I have Supercars Unlimited and Year One catalogs.)
>> Year One doesn't even have most of the engine parts either.
>
>See, ya got the wrong sources there. Check what they want for a Crome-moly
>oil pump drive rod that I sell for $10... $5 in bulk... You need to see
Bryceman's
>web page, where the likes of Engine Service Group, Performance Automotive
>Warehouse [see any hot-roddy magazine], National Automotive lines, etc. are
>shown... As per usual, it's almost always best to buy what you need in a KIT
>form all from one vendor, though I tend to use Mondello for hard to find
>items like rubber main seals, HP cams, etc.

I had asked this list before about PST's (the suspension guys) engine rebuild
kits, but got no response so I assumed that nobody ever has used them. I
decided to take my chances and go ahead with an order for their kit for my
403. I just got the box and checked it out, and this is what I found:

Their basic kit, including cast pistons, rings, gaskets, bearings, oil pum,
cam, lifters, pushrods, rocker arms, valve springs, valve locks, cost $445. I
also wanted the forged pistons (+$100), chrome-moly rings (+$15), hv oil pump
(+$10) and performance camshaft (+$40; same specs as an Edelbrock Performer
cam) options, which totalled up to $610. I was assured that name-brand
components were included, and in fact, was happy to find the pistons were TRW
Powerforged units (L2451F-30), a Detroit Gasket gasket kit, Sealed Power
rings (378K-30), Clevite 77 main bearings and a bottle of Elgin "Pro Stock"
Pre-lube. I was less familiar with the SKF/McQuay-Norris rod bearings and the
Durabond cam bearings. Oh, yeah, there was a steel timing set (non-roller;
n/a) that had a name I didn't recognize (I've already got a roller).

The hv oil pump, cam, lifters, springs, rockers, valve locks and pushrods
were all "white-box" brand, so I can't speak to their durability or quality.
I guess I'll find that out when I build the motor.

I compared this kit with other sources, but nobody had as complete a kit as
PST, and nobody came close on price.

PAW was closest; their "Deluxe Master Rebuild Kit" for the 403 was $503 for
the cast piston version/$711 for the TRW forged piston version. This is
before adding on for high-performance options, and does not include pushrods,
rockers or valvesprings.

Mondello has a stock-type rebuild kit (MK403-L) for $512, minus the
valvetrain items (does include lifters), or a similar kit (FK403-L) with the
TRW forged pistons and performance rings/timing chain for $670. For the TRW
pistons alone (2030), Mondello asks $416.

The thing about most of these kits is that the 403 kits are usually
considerably more (over $100 more than 350 or 455 kits), but PST charges the
same as for their 350 kits. I suppose you could find a 350 kit for less than
PST charges, but even without the additional valvetrain items, they beat both
PAW and Mondello. 

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 07:55:07 -0300
Subject: Weekend Purchases

I was at the area's biggest car show and swap meet on Sunday. A little 
disappointing for a couple of reasons, the cold weather and the general 
lack of Oldsmobiles in attendance, though we did our best to bring up the 
average (my '68, buddies' '70 and '71 SXs, we arrived in a group. Nice to 
get reactions from people on the highway to the pack of Cutlasses 
cruising past). Aside from us there were 3 or 4 50's Olds (including a 
battleship-sized '59 Holiday coupe) and about the same number of other
Cutlasses. 

No Olds parts for sale either, but I was able to pick up a bunch of
literature including a '61 to '72 Olds parts catalog (for $10!), a similar
Buick catalog for my Skylark, and a bunch of specialty manuals from the
mid to late 60s including one on Delcotron charging systems (wish I had
that a couple of weeks ago!), a Hydramatic 400 rebuild manual, and a '64
GM radio service manual for Wonderbar and AM/FM radios. This one was a
mistake on my part as I thought it covered all radios, but it doesn't
include the AM-only job I have. If anyone would have a need for this, 
drop me a note. Also got a Delco binder filled with radio repair manuals 
from about 1980 back. Neat. Bought it for the binder alone but the 
contents are interesting too.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Fernando Proietto <proietto@dow.on.doe.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 18:22:58 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds Articles...

Scott,
	I found the Muscle Car Review '92 issues. I have all issues except March 92. I 
think Jeff said something about the March and May 92 issues. I will scan them in 
tomorrow, pics included. I'm not sure that your OCR will work from a fax. I may 
compress the images and just e-mail them instead. It's faster and the image will be 
exactly as I scanned them. O.k with you? Should I send them to Bryceman to put into the 
442 web site or to you instead?

Regards
Fernando Proietto

------------------------------

From: Mike Hall <mikehal1@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 11:00:46 -0300
Subject: Midland, MI Antique Show

Planning on taking the Cutlass S to its first show this coming weekend. 
(weather permitting, rotten weather and I'm not going...)

The Spring Midland show has a lot of cars, parts and antiques. I should 
be there Saturday and Sunday. I would enjoy meeting any of you 
"Michiganders" if you plan on going to the show. If I'm not around, feel 
free to leave a note on the windshield with a time that you will be back.

Entirely off topic question: The house got egged this morning, anybody 
got any good suggestions to fend off this type of vandalism? I have a 
constant problem with "Lawn Jobs" so my videocam works for 8 hours a day 
recording the front side of the house, the "egging" happened on the back 
side. TIA, Mike  


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Michael R. Hall                            Ortonville, Michigan
E-Mail: mikehal1@ix.netcom.com
Owner: 1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass S, 380 horses of pure Mondello fun...
Owner: 1991 Oldsmobile Eighty-Eight Royale Broughm, the classy one...
Owner: 1994 GMC Sonoma Club Coupe SLS Pickup.
         Brought to you by a Apple Power Macintosh 7100/80
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 11:33:42 -0300
Subject: Re: Friday's Misc? 

In a message dated 96-05-26 19:07:15 EDT, you write:

>> 7 bladed props with the clutch came in all 66-67 Toros with A/C as
>> standard. Whether I have air or not, I put one in right away whenever I
get
>> another Toro. They might have come in later years, but I'm not sure.
>>
>> If you replace a standard blade with a 7 blade, be sure to get the spacer
>> with it. The spacer is shorter with 7 blades as are the bolts. The 7
bladed
>> prop will not fit with a standard spacer and bolts. It will hit the
>radiator!
>> Greg K.
>
>Spacer? SPACER? You telling us you don't use a fan clutch? -Chris-
>
>
Chris,

It would be silly to go through all that work and not use the fan clutch
wouldn't it? Of course, I have done a few silly things, but this ain't one of
them. (: Perhaps I didn't explain this in detail enough, or perhaps the
application in a Cutlass is different than in a Toro.

The spacer goes BETWEEN the water pump and the mounting flange of the fan
blade. I think what the engineers were after was to get the fan as close as
possible to the radiator to effect better cooling. The fan also sits deeper
into the shroud creating a more efficient draft of air pulled through the
radiator. 

With an A/C equipped car, the radiator is thicker (and I believe the 7 blader
is deeper), therefore, the distance between the water pump and the radiator
is shorter. Thats why you have to use the shorter spacer. I believe its about
1 inch as opposed to about 2"  without air. 

I can only give you my experience from a Toro perspective. Like I say, I'm
not sure if it applys to a Cutlass or any other Olds. But, just on the off
chance that it does, now you know!  (:  


Greg K.

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 11:33:43 -0300
Subject: Re: Misc Stuff 

In a message dated 96-05-26 17:48:13 EDT, you write:

> the tidbit that the Toronado project, shrouded in secrecy before its
official
>announcement, was known as "XP-784".... how many knew that before? Only a
>few, I'm sure...
>-Chris

Sure did!  The XP-784 clay version looked very similar to an Avanti. (right
Mike?) 

If anyone is interested, a very good story on the Toronado development is in
the December, 1966 issue of Motor Trend. That was when the 1966 Toronado won
car of the year award. Then entire issue was dedicated to the Toronado which
has a great deal of information on it.

Greg K. 

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 12:40:24 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: The heat is on

At 07:36 PM 5/23/96 -0300, you wrote:

>        Now obviously there is a difference in surface area, 
>        conductivity of the metals, fins on the radiator, etc., but 
>        the more time a unit volume of coolant spends in the radiator, 
>        the more heat it rejects.  Also, the temperature of the 
>        coolant is not constant, but varies considerably with its 
>        location in the system.  Neither is the flow rate constant in 
>        all parts of the system, as coolant is constantly circulating 
>        in the block and heads (via the water pump), but not 
>        necessarily flowing at the same rate through the radiator.  


One other thing that must be considered is how much "gunk" (scale, rust,
grime, etc) is coating the inside of the water passages in the block.  When
I replaced the freeze plugs in my 350, I got some help from my uncle, who
has been diesel boat mechanic down in Port St. Lucie, FL for some 20 odd
years now.  He told me that something like 1/16" or 1/8" of "gunk" will
impair heat transfer like there was 3 more inches of cast iron there!  Amazing!
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

 "I was put on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things;
    right now I'm so far behind, I'll never die"  --Calvin

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 12:40:27 -0300
Subject: Re: V8

At 12:07 AM 5/24/96 -0300, you wrote:

>i am going to be seeing one within the next week...he says he has one IN
SHOP!!!
>                         zack
>
Be sure to bring a camera...check that casting #.
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

 "I was put on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things;
    right now I'm so far behind, I'll never die"  --Calvin

------------------------------

From: SG Hartfelder <stanh@compusmart.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 14:17:09 -0300
Subject: May27 - 3 Q's 

Hope everyone had or is having a good weekend. I guess our friends in the US
get a long weekend (May 27th) because of Memorial Day.  Even though it was
cloudy and kinda crummy here in Edmonton, I did manage to get the Olds out
for a drive on Sunday.

I've got three (3) questions I'm hoping someone out there can help me with:

1.  I have Centreline aluminum wheels and they have what appears to be water
spots on them.  They are fairly unnoticeable but I'm kind of a perfectionist
and would like to clean them up.  I tried boiling a solution of 50% water &
50% white vinegar and after scrubbing one wheel for about 15 minutes with a
tooth brush there was very little improvement.  Anyone have a magic solution
you can share?

2.  After driving the Olds around for about an hour yesterday I got it back
into it's garage and turned it off.  Then, a few minutes later when I went
to restart it, It sort of turned over for a second then the starter just
started to click.  I tried about 10 more times with the same result.  After
leaving it alone for about 2 hours I tried again and after a slight pause it
started fine.  Any ideas what it could be or where I should start diagnosing
the problem?

3.  What is Memorial Day recognizing in the US?  In Canada we have a long
weekend in May called Victoria Day (3rd Monday in May) which celebrates
Queen Victoria's birthday.  Queen Victoria has passed away long ago so now
it's a day to celebrate the current monarch's birthday.

Any help or advice you can share with me would be appreciated.

------------------------------

From: Fernando Proietto <proietto@dow.on.doe.ca>
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 23:13:09 -0300
Subject: Re: May27 - 3 Q's

SG Hartfelder wrote:
>.
>.
> 2.  After driving the Olds around for about an hour yesterday I got it back
> into it's garage and turned it off.  Then, a few minutes later when I went
> to restart it, It sort of turned over for a second then the starter just
> started to click.  I tried about 10 more times with the same result.  After
> leaving it alone for about 2 hours I tried again and after a slight pause it
> started fine.  Any ideas what it could be or where I should start diagnosing
> the problem?
> 

When I installed my headers I got te same symptom. The heat from the exhaust was affecting the 
starter selonoid. Heat will do this, hence after 2 hours, everything cooled down it worked. You 
may have to install a heat shield around the starter.

- -- 
Regards
Fernando Proietto

------------------------------

From: "Roger M. Borlase" <BORLASE@gordonc.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 14:30:08 -0300
Subject: RE: May27 - 3 Q's 

>2.  After driving the Olds around for about an hour yesterday I got it back
>into it's garage and turned it off.  Then, a few minutes later when I went
>to restart it, It sort of turned over for a second then the starter just
>started to click.  I tried about 10 more times with the same result.  After
>leaving it alone for about 2 hours I tried again and after a slight pause it
>started fine.  Any ideas what it could be or where I should start diagnosing
>the problem?

Had the same problem with my '72 Cutlass Wagon.  I replaced the starter and 
voltage regulator and the problem hasn't occured since.

Roger Borlase
http://www.cjnteworks.com/olds/noframesreg/borlase.html

------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 14:38:56 -0300
Subject: Re: May27 - 3 Q's

On Mon, 27 May 1996, SG Hartfelder wrote:
 
> I've got three (3) questions I'm hoping someone out there can help me with:
> 
> 1.  I have Centreline aluminum wheels and they have what appears to be water
> spots on them.  They are fairly unnoticeable but I'm kind of a perfectionist
> and would like to clean them up.  I tried boiling a solution of 50% water &
> 50% white vinegar and after scrubbing one wheel for about 15 minutes with a
> tooth brush there was very little improvement.  Anyone have a magic solution
> you can share?

I can't help you with this one.  :)
 
> 2.  After driving the Olds around for about an hour yesterday I got it back
> into it's garage and turned it off.  Then, a few minutes later when I went
> to restart it, It sort of turned over for a second then the starter just
> started to click.  I tried about 10 more times with the same result.  After
> leaving it alone for about 2 hours I tried again and after a slight pause it
> started fine.  Any ideas what it could be or where I should start diagnosing
> the problem?

The exact same sort of thing happened to me with my '64 Jetstar a couple 
of months ago (although I was in the parking lot of a bank at the time 
and couldn't therefore wait around for a couple of hours, so I called the 
AAA).  It turned out to be simply a poor electrical connection at the 
battery.  The AAA mechanic just loosened the positive connection at the 
battery (it wasn't very tight when he did this), cleaned the connections 
a bit, and reattached tightly.  It then started fine.  I suppose that the 
cable clamp had just worked loose over time.  

I felt a bit like an idiot for not being able to figure this one out, but 
I had originally thought it might have been a bad starter, so I was 
expecting to have to have the car towed.  Plus, I didn't suspect bad 
electricals because everything else in the car (headlights, radio, dome 
light, etc.) worked ok.  I guess there was enough current trickling 
through to power these relatively low amperage devices, but not enough to 
turn over the starter.
 
> 3.  What is Memorial Day recognizing in the US?  In Canada we have a long
> weekend in May called Victoria Day (3rd Monday in May) which celebrates
> Queen Victoria's birthday.  Queen Victoria has passed away long ago so now
> it's a day to celebrate the current monarch's birthday.

Memorial Day is one of two holidays in the US that honor those who fought 
in battle.  The other one is Veteran's Day, which occurs on November 11 and
is actually a holiday that has NOT been moved to the nearest Monday so we 
can all take a three day weekend and thereby forget the reason for the 
holiday in the first place (cynic speaking here).  

Although both holidays now more or less celebrate both, Memorial Day 
traditionally commemorates and honors those who have fought 
AND DIED in defense of this country.  Veteran's Day traditionally has 
been a holiday to honor those who have fought for this country AND ARE 
STILL LIVING.  Hence the term "Veterans."

Memorial Day began as "Decoration Day" sometime back in the mid-1800s (my 
lack of historical knowledge is showing here) when it became a tradition 
to place flowers and so forth on the graves of fallen soldiers.  Thus the 
graves were "decorated" and the day got its name.  The original, "real" 
Decoration/Memorial Day was/is May 30th, but Congress some years back 
designated the last Monday in May as the official, federal holiday.  
(They did the same thing with Columbus Day and Washington/Lincoln's 
Birthday, now known as President's Day.  Martin Luther King Day came 
along AFTER the Monday holiday business, so his holiday was 
automatically placed on a Monday, the poor guy.)

Veteran's Day also began life with a different name.  The date November 
11th is signficant because it is the date of the armistice (truce) that 
occurred in 1918 during World War I.  It was called Armistice Day from 
then until 1954, when it became Veteran's Day.

> Any help or advice you can share with me would be appreciated.
> 
> 
> 




Dan Gulino

------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 14:38:56 -0300
Subject: Re: May27 - 3 Q's

On Mon, 27 May 1996, SG Hartfelder wrote:
 
> I've got three (3) questions I'm hoping someone out there can help me with:
> 
> 1.  I have Centreline aluminum wheels and they have what appears to be water
> spots on them.  They are fairly unnoticeable but I'm kind of a perfectionist
> and would like to clean them up.  I tried boiling a solution of 50% water &
> 50% white vinegar and after scrubbing one wheel for about 15 minutes with a
> tooth brush there was very little improvement.  Anyone have a magic solution
> you can share?

I can't help you with this one.  :)
 
> 2.  After driving the Olds around for about an hour yesterday I got it back
> into it's garage and turned it off.  Then, a few minutes later when I went
> to restart it, It sort of turned over for a second then the starter just
> started to click.  I tried about 10 more times with the same result.  After
> leaving it alone for about 2 hours I tried again and after a slight pause it
> started fine.  Any ideas what it could be or where I should start diagnosing
> the problem?

The exact same sort of thing happened to me with my '64 Jetstar a couple 
of months ago (although I was in the parking lot of a bank at the time 
and couldn't therefore wait around for a couple of hours, so I called the 
AAA).  It turned out to be simply a poor electrical connection at the 
battery.  The AAA mechanic just loosened the positive connection at the 
battery (it wasn't very tight when he did this), cleaned the connections 
a bit, and reattached tightly.  It then started fine.  I suppose that the 
cable clamp had just worked loose over time.  

I felt a bit like an idiot for not being able to figure this one out, but 
I had originally thought it might have been a bad starter, so I was 
expecting to have to have the car towed.  Plus, I didn't suspect bad 
electricals because everything else in the car (headlights, radio, dome 
light, etc.) worked ok.  I guess there was enough current trickling 
through to power these relatively low amperage devices, but not enough to 
turn over the starter.
 
> 3.  What is Memorial Day recognizing in the US?  In Canada we have a long
> weekend in May called Victoria Day (3rd Monday in May) which celebrates
> Queen Victoria's birthday.  Queen Victoria has passed away long ago so now
> it's a day to celebrate the current monarch's birthday.

Memorial Day is one of two holidays in the US that honor those who fought 
in battle.  The other one is Veteran's Day, which occurs on November 11 and
is actually a holiday that has NOT been moved to the nearest Monday so we 
can all take a three day weekend and thereby forget the reason for the 
holiday in the first place (cynic speaking here).  

Although both holidays now more or less celebrate both, Memorial Day 
traditionally commemorates and honors those who have fought 
AND DIED in defense of this country.  Veteran's Day traditionally has 
been a holiday to honor those who have fought for this country AND ARE 
STILL LIVING.  Hence the term "Veterans."

Memorial Day began as "Decoration Day" sometime back in the mid-1800s (my 
lack of historical knowledge is showing here) when it became a tradition 
to place flowers and so forth on the graves of fallen soldiers.  Thus the 
graves were "decorated" and the day got its name.  The original, "real" 
Decoration/Memorial Day was/is May 30th, but Congress some years back 
designated the last Monday in May as the official, federal holiday.  
(They did the same thing with Columbus Day and Washington/Lincoln's 
Birthday, now known as President's Day.  Martin Luther King Day came 
along AFTER the Monday holiday business, so his holiday was 
automatically placed on a Monday, the poor guy.)

Veteran's Day also began life with a different name.  The date November 
11th is signficant because it is the date of the armistice (truce) that 
occurred in 1918 during World War I.  It was called Armistice Day from 
then until 1954, when it became Veteran's Day.

> Any help or advice you can share with me would be appreciated.
> 
> 
> 




Dan Gulino

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 14:46:58 -0300
Subject: Re: May27 - 3 Q's 

At 14.17 05,27,96 -0300, you wrote:
>Hope everyone had or is having a good weekend. I guess our friends in the US
>get a long weekend (May 27th) because of Memorial Day.  Even though it was
>cloudy and kinda crummy here in Edmonton, I did manage to get the Olds out
>for a drive on Sunday.
>
>I've got three (3) questions I'm hoping someone out there can help me with:
>
>1.  I have Centreline aluminum wheels and they have what appears to be water
>spots on them.  They are fairly unnoticeable but I'm kind of a perfectionist
>and would like to clean them up.  I tried boiling a solution of 50% water &
>50% white vinegar and after scrubbing one wheel for about 15 minutes with a
>tooth brush there was very little improvement.  Anyone have a magic solution
>you can share?
>

ok...i dont know how you can get these off, but to prevent them buy a wheel
wax for aluminum wheels....these spots you are seeing is the hard water or
oxidation of the aluminum...

>2.  After driving the Olds around for about an hour yesterday I got it back
>into it's garage and turned it off.  Then, a few minutes later when I went
>to restart it, It sort of turned over for a second then the starter just
>started to click.  I tried about 10 more times with the same result.  After
>leaving it alone for about 2 hours I tried again and after a slight pause it
>started fine.  Any ideas what it could be or where I should start diagnosing
>the problem?
>

sounds like heat soak of the starter...try to insulate it from too much
heat...usually happens when you have headers...

>3.  What is Memorial Day recognizing in the US?  In Canada we have a long
>weekend in May called Victoria Day (3rd Monday in May) which celebrates
>Queen Victoria's birthday.  Queen Victoria has passed away long ago so now
>it's a day to celebrate the current monarch's birthday.
>

memorial day is a day to honor those who have died in past wars...

>Any help or advice you can share with me would be appreciated.
>
>
>
no problem
                         zack

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 14:46:23 -0300
Subject: Re: May27 - 3 Q's

> 1.  I have Centreline aluminum wheels and they have what appears to be water
> spots on them.  They are fairly unnoticeable but I'm kind of a perfectionist
> and would like to clean them up.  I tried boiling a solution of 50% water &
> 50% white vinegar and after scrubbing one wheel for about 15 minutes with a
> tooth brush there was very little improvement.  Anyone have a magic solution
> you can share?

Mother's (brand name) Aluminum Polish might do the trick, I used to use it
on the cases of my Triumphs and H-D Sportster.  Could get a chrome-like
finish if'n I polished it enough...

> 
> 2.  After driving the Olds around for about an hour yesterday I got it back
> into it's garage and turned it off.  Then, a few minutes later when I went
> to restart it, It sort of turned over for a second then the starter just
> started to click.  I tried about 10 more times with the same result.  After
> leaving it alone for about 2 hours I tried again and after a slight pause it
> started fine.  Any ideas what it could be or where I should start diagnosing
> the problem?

Could very well be a starter solenoid problem, if not the starter motor itself.
I used to have a Pontiac 400 H.O. that ate starters every 2 - 3 months until
I found out that there was a corresponding H.O. starter that didn't burn up
(as fast, anyway)... this motor was stuffed in my Mom's old '67 Catalina 4 door,
whatta sleeper!

> 
> 3.  What is Memorial Day recognizing in the US?  In Canada we have a long
> weekend in May called Victoria Day (3rd Monday in May) which celebrates
> Queen Victoria's birthday.  Queen Victoria has passed away long ago so now
> it's a day to celebrate the current monarch's birthday.

It's original intent is to honor America's war dead, with patriotic parades and
such... unfortunately these days it usually just means the start of summer
and a long weekend get-away (and I'm as guilty as anybody on this).



Tim Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'88 Cadillac Brougham, a.k.a. 'Big Blue' -- Olds 307 Powered!!
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 18:44:34 -0300
Subject: Re: May27 - 3 Q's

SG Hartfelder wrote:
> 
> ... water spots ...

Dunno.  But Jeannie's got them on the wheels of her Linc*ln too, so I'd 
be interested in the solution (pun intended).

> Any ideas what it could be or where I should start diagnosing
> the problem?

Every time I had this problem in a car, it's turned out to be the 
starter.  Since the motor is MUCH harder to turn over when hot, a weak 
starter typically starts when cold, don't when hot.  (I assume you 
checked the obvious:  battery cables, starter cable, block ground strap, 
etc.)

 
The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #187
********************************

