
oldsmobile-digest          Sunday, 24 March 1996       Volume 01 : Number 128


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 23:24:44 -0400
Subject: '77 403

Stopped in the scrap metal place last Friday, what do ya suppose was there but
a genuine 1977 403 engine. I wanted a junk 403 anyhow, so I picked up that and
a #6 head, and an oil pan full of misc. stuff.

When I went to attach the chain to the 403, after I paid for it, I noticed the
oil pan was off. And the rod caps. Humf. OK, still worth it for the heads &
intake... Dismantled it today. Heh, guess what kind of main webs it has- open
or solid?

Had spun a bearing. About 10,000 miles ago from the looks of the crank... And,
the oil filter mount broke off a chunk of the block, so block & crank are goin
back I guess, as scrap. Interesting- no outer ring mounted on rubber on the
front balancer- therefore not a damper, right?

Ah, there was a 455 block there, too, looks like it was freshly machined, then
allowed to rust. It was an Fa block, with no MT linkage boss at the left rear
of the block, but I have seen Fa blocks WITH that feature. Go figure. That one
stayed.

But, the 403 was one HOT machine... I know this, because it was sporting...
   SPLITFIRES!
[all together, now: Oooooooooooh!]
Yes, PLUS they were using the old racer's trick of putting taper-seat plugs
into a gasket-seal head! With that kind of power, no wonder they spun  a
bearing!                  :)

- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:03:28 -0400
Subject: Service manuals

>     "Let he who is without SBC cast the first stone..."

Counts me out; I have exactly ONE SBC engine- a '68 350-4V with TH400 short
shaft. Someday I expect to find a use for it.

> I have a copy of the Olds Chassis Service Manual for my '72, and if what you
> are looking at is anything similar, it's a COMPLETE service manual for the
> year. Covers all models, all options, how to differentiate engines, trannys,
> rear ends, etc., how to read VIN and other numbers, what options were there
> and how they worked, and of course the usual useless stuff - like how to
> repair/replace mechanical/body parts and so on.
>   If you're serious about a specific year, they're well worth the
> investment.

Well, SORT OF... the factory service  manual os probably THE best thing to get
if you wrench on your car, or just want to study it. Show all those hidden
fasteners that hold the dash in, etc.

True, it details engine ID & such IF, IF, IF the car is original and complete.
What really annoys me about the FSM's is that they NEVER tell you how to ID a
part, like a head, by the obvious sign- a casting number, for instance. And,
yes, they tell how to translate the diff. code into ratio, posi or not, etc.
BUT here in the rust belt, that code is 99% of the time long since rusted away.
One thing they are handy for, if you have a few of them, is scanning for
differences. For instance, I thought that these C heads I was dealing with were
68 Toro units, but by looking up the ID codes on the valves, I see that they
were used only in 68 442's... No big deal, except that it was neat to ferret
out that info. Functional difference would be negligible.

Oh, yeah, they tell you what engine code sticker to buy to replace the one that
long since disappeared... Heck, you can make a W30 455 out of a 330, according
to the manual, just by applying the "right" ID tag to the oil fill tube.

- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:25:59 -0400
Subject: Shave yer heads!

> When the heads are shaved, you need to figure out how much closer to the block
> they sit.  So if 40 thousths were shaved off the heads, and 5 thousanths were
> decked off the block, then a total of 45 thousanths was removed, the new head
> gasket is 19 thsths thicker, so the head actually sits 45-19 closer (.026).  T
> get alll the parts to line up as stock, you need to then also shave that amoun
> off of the intake side of the heads (0.026).  Then, set the heads on the block

Yes, true. BUT, that assumes that stock=perfect. Personally, I have not
investigated, but I find it VERY hard to believe that Olds held mfg tolerances
to within 0.030" on intake port sizes & locations on the millions of engines
made each year. So, it is just possible that moving the heads w.r.t. the intake
by 0.026" might just bring the ports into better alignment than they had
originally. Anyway, IF they were perfectly aligned before, and now off by
0.026", that's hardly worth 'correcting' for. Look at a 0.025" feeler gage.
That's the difference we're talking about here. about 1/32"...

> w/o gaskets, put a couple bolts into each one just to ensure they don't get
> knocked off.  Don't tighten them!  Just turn them enough to grab hold of some
> threads if you are concerned about knocking them off the block.  Then, set you
> intake onto the top, check that there is clearnance between the block and the
> intake at the front and back of engine (where you usually slop on the RTV).  I
> there is clearance, everything is Go, just properly assemble and be careful of

I agree with this... except you did not mention puttin feeler gages or shim
stock equal to the to-be-used gasket thickness in there... that's gotta be at
least 0.015" don't ya think? If 0.026 is not negligible, then neither is this!

> rocker arm geometry, your pushrods are now 0.026 in too long.  What I just
> learned is that you can simply put shims under the rocker pivots, the same
> thickness as the distance the heads sit closer to the block (.026).  There is
> no difference in angles, so that doesn't need to be worried about.  If there i

Ah, well, this assumes that the valve tip is *exactly* where the factory
specified it to be, that there's NO wear on the rockers/ pedestals, etc. THis
is not generally the case.

To be SURE, check EACH lifter plunger preload individaully, and shim pedestals
or adjust p'rods for about 0.050" preload, which is about 0.030" pedestal
clearance at 0 lifter preload. The booklet "supertuning and blueprinting the
Olds V8" suggests keeping the shims on each pedestal within 0.020" of one
another. I concur.

> mentioned that milling intake would not allow it to be used again on another
> engine, this is not the case.  Since only the end seal portions are milled
> (assuming they need it) then a little more silicone gasket maker is needed at
> these areas, and the intake can be used on any engine.  For my engine, the

Right, if the intake/head "mismatch" [if we may be so bold] is taken care of on
the head surface.

> heads, he argued and argued, finally giving in.  Today I saw him and he seemed
> amazed that when he and his employees were discussing it over lunch, that it
> was correct and no one had thought to include the thicker gasket or block deck
> previously?!  Anyway, if this clears up confusion, great, but remember, it onl
> applies to olds.
> Tony

Wow, so you were RIGHT!? Imagine that!!

>     Yes, its me again with more timing questions. Got to fiddling with my
> timing and dwell last night and made some pretty enlightening discoveries. Fir
st no matter how high you rev the engine (ran it up to about 2k), the timing doe
sn't advance at all! Pulled the distributor cap and rotor to take a look at the
> weights. Everything looked fine and moved normally. According to my shop manua
> my timing shound have advanced 2-3 deg. So, since the weights and springs seem
> to be in good shape (move freely at least) what else could be causing this?

not only must the weights move, but you should be able to reach over and twist
the cam part CW about 10 degrees, the way the weights will move it when they
fly out. This is s/o moving the lower dist'r shaft. They can freeze up. Just
dismantle & lube, clean, reassemble.

>     The other problem I found was that my dwell was at 20deg (should be 32)
> and I just adjusted it 3 wks ago! What could be causing that?

Weak condenser? Ign resistor not in place?

>     I've got a bad feeling that the dist is shot. If I wanted to replace it
> with a electronic ignition distributor, which one would you guys recommend? I
> have a spacer plate under my carb that gives me a little more room under the
> air cleaner but not a lot. Any advice or recommendations are greatly appreacia
ted.

Pre-computer HEI, of course.

- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <jlabay@Phoenix.kent.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 01:23:01 -0400
Subject: 75 fender question

I need to know if a RF fender off af a 1973 Cutlass will fit a 1975 
Cutlass?  I looked and they seem like a close match, but not sure.
Thanks,

Jason Labay                                            jlabay@phoenix.kent.edu
Akron, Ohio                                            xdsg80a@prodigy.com    
1975 Hurst/Olds W-25                                                          
1988 Camaro Z/28                                                      

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <jlabay@Phoenix.kent.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 01:30:34 -0400
Subject: 72 Toro 455

I am looking for a new engine to put into my Z/28. How would a 72 Toro 
455 be to start as a block to build up for performance. Any pro's or 
con's on this engine. I have already heard from some on the list about 
it in the past. I have two 455's I can use, this one and a 74 Buick 455.
thanks, 

Jason Labay                                            jlabay@phoenix.kent.edu
Akron, Ohio                                            xdsg80a@prodigy.com    
1975 Hurst/Olds W-25                                                          
1988 Camaro Z/28 CFI 305                                                      

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 08:45:59 -0400
Subject: Test

testing... 

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Willie <aceface@ohana.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 09:12:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Test

Greg Beaulieu wrote:
> 
> testing...
> 
> Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada


What are you testing Greg? I'm Willie from Hawaii. I have a '57 Olds 
Super 88. Whatcha got?

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 13:56:22 -0400
Subject: Re: 72 Toro 455 

In a message dated 96-03-24 00:40:49 EST, you write:

>I am looking for a new engine to put into my Z/28. How would a 72 Toro 
>455 be to start as a block to build up for performance. Any pro's or 
>con's on this engine. I have already heard from some on the list about 
>it in the past. I have two 455's I can use, this one and a 74 Buick 455.
>thanks, 

If it is a 2nd generation Z/28, you can use the T/A 403 mounts to put in the
Olds 455 (I think there are even headers for this swap). With the Buick,
you'd have to fabricate your mounts. Either way, you need a BOP or corporate
tranny for this swap as well (or new bellhousing if you've got a 4-speed).

If you are talking 3rd gen F-bodies, you are on your own. *That* might be too
tight.

The '72 455 will have hardened exhaust seats, and lots of torque; not a bad
street motor at all. Plus it is pre-EGR. Perfect street motor for you, I'd
say.

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 13:56:17 -0400
Subject: Vista Cruiser operation questions 

I've got a few "operational" questions about my recently acquired '72 Vista
Cruiser...

1) How do you raise the rear seats? They've been folded down for about 10
years or so while the car has been sitting, and there is no obvious way to
get them upright. There is a lever on either side of the 2nd seat, but that
looks more like a release to put them down. It seems that they might just
fold up, but I don't want to use brute force if there is some little catch
somewhere that I have to release.

In addition, the 3rd seat shows no obvious latches or releases. Does the 2nd
seat have to be up to put up the 3rd seat?

2) How do you open the rear gate? All there is on the outside is a key, which
seems to operate a solenoid of some sort when turned each way. The rear
window is electric, but doesn't react to the switch on the dash. Inside, the
handle on the left has apparently broken the release cable. The handle in the
center still moves, but feels like something is locked. It looks like this is
a 2-way gate, either swinging out or folding down. Right now it does neither.

Does the rear window have to be down before you can open the gate? If so, how
can I get that motor going? And how are you supposed to open it from the
outside? The rear bumper has a cutout-type section on the passenger side; is
that a hinge, or is it some kind of hidden release?

All these things are mondo cool when cars are new, but 25 years down the
road, they are just a pain in the a**!

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 13:56:11 -0400
Subject: Vista Cruiser adventure (bit long...) 

Now that I've gotten serious about my 403 buildup (and I've convinced my wife
that we should actually dedicate money to it as well), I began my quest for a
set of good heads. I saw a 72 Vista Cruiser in the paper a week ago, and when
the ad ran again this week, I gave a call. The guy said that others had
wanted parts from the car, but he really wanted to sell it whole and not deal
with hauling away a carcass; other people who were going to look at it never
showed up or changed their mind, so I said I'd come by early Sat., what time
do you get up? 5:00am-ok early riser, but I can set the alarm, if it means
I'll have a set of good flowing #7a's with hardened valve seats...

Load up the car the night before with ratchets, wrenches, mini-floor jack and
everything else I need (or so I think...). I call at 5:05am, he answers, we
set a place to meet, and I'm off He's an hour away, so it gives me plenty of
time to fantasize on the way up about this car... (...hmmm, maybe it's got
Super Stock rims! buckets and console? Perhaps it is mint- he said he didn't
remember whether the rust was bad or not. Maybe he was wrong and it was a
455, not a 350? et cetera...) Remind myself of the times I've done this
before, and replace this "Boss Wagon" image with that of a faded blue
w/peeling woodgrain Vista Cruiser, creaky doors, steel wheels with flat
tires, in about a foot of mud. Meet the guy at appointed place, and follow
him off into the Connecticut woods to the place it's at (house he owns, but
rents out, so no phone or utilities to help on this adventure).

You know how sometimes you expect one thing when you're going to look at a
car, but when you get there, it's entirely different? Well, this car was
*exactly* as I imagined it (unfortunately, it was exactly like the *revised*
image I had), though only three tires were completely flat, and the interior
looked worse than I had imagined, like some greenhouse-effect science
experiment (the carpeting appears to be an effort in wetlands reclamation of
some sort). It's a Vista Cruiser alright, with the windows in the roof, bench
seats (three, actually).

Hmmm, check the heads first- yup, the #7, plus a little "A" down to the
right, so I tell the guy he has a deal. The valve covers still showed that
ultra-cool Olds gold that I miss on my corp. blue 403. Too bad it's a
single-exhaust 2-bbl, but hey, I just want the parts, right? Still, would've
been nice...

Check for vital fluids, add some water, and drop in the battery I borrowed
from my current beater (hint: bring a *good* battery, preferrably with both
top and side posts, or at least bring adapters). Pop off the aircleaner lid,
remove about a pound of acorns (luckily, Mr. Mouse was off on spring break),
spritz some WD-40 on the choke linkage to work it free, and dump some gas
down the carb (it hasn't run since October, so the lines are bone dry).

Slide behind the wheel to crank it over. Eeek, don't grab the wheel, which
has now turned into that non-factory mold-wrapped option (yuck!), and HEY,
lookee here, an FM radio! Wait, there's a switch, change to AM, and *COOL*,
the radio dial flips to display only the AM band! So Olds did install that
AM/FM James Bond-flipping dial! (for those who remember that discussion on
this list a few weeks ago)

Turn the key, and Mr. VC says "wruh-wruh-(pause)-wruh-wruh". Hmmm, pour a bit
more gas down the carb and try again. "Wruh-wruh-(pause)-wruh-wruh" again,
which from the context I can roughly translate into Olds language as "I've
got no gas, and probably no spark, so just give it up, you only want me for
my heads anyway!" Hey, I just want it for parts anyway, right?

By now, the tires that were flat have been pumped up by my little
cigarette-lighter-powered air pump (essential for looking at parts cars if
you don't have a full-fledged air tank), but one isn't holding air. No
problem, there's about eight tires in the back of this wagon, plus a spare;
oh, none of the tires are on rims, so lets break the spare free from its well
(the rust down there had formed an intimate attraction to the rubber of the
tire), and mount it. Hmmm, not holding air either (knew I should have brought
a couple of my own spares! Make mental note for next time...). 

Ok, I'm going to call AAA to come and tow this, but I need at least two
decent tires to support the weight of the car on the road, and the three
inflatable tires on there have a *maximum* tread depth of about 1/64th of an
inch. :(   I have images of one blowing out while being towed, scattering VC
parts all over the highway...I could probably save the 7a heads even if that
happened... Oh well, we'll go have some breakfast, make the call and worry
about it later...

After some good eggs and coffee, and a bit of conversation about ourselves
and life in general (one of the nice things about looking at cars is you get
to have interesting conversations with absolute strangers, and find out
there's millions of normal people just living out their lives like you are
out there. Of course, you often meet a total nutcase, which makes for even
more interesting stories), I call AAA, tell them the car has a flat tire, no
spare, won't run and has no brakes. She says be there in five minutes,
they'll send a guy, so we head back in what we *hope* is the last snow of the
year (luckily it isn't sticking).

Back at the ranch, we've pulled and pushed the car (hmmm, glad he had a
chain; gotta bring tow straps on the next parts-car run...) to a spot the tow
truck can lift it from the rear, and we've put two inflatable tires on the
front. Hand over the cash, get a bill of sale written on the back of a piece
of scrap paper (title is not around, former owner was elderly woman who
passed away before she could send the title; the guy I'm dealing with must be
75 himself, and seems trustworthy, so what the heck, I buy his story), and
wait for the tow truck.

We hear the sounds of a distant diesel coming up this back road, and what
should appear from out of the trees but a flatbed! Aaaallllright Triple-A, no
more worrying about blowing out tires! In no time, it is pulled up on the
back of the truck (could have saved about an hour of swapping tires, but who
knew...) and we're on our way to my dad's driveway (thanks, pop!) about 25
miles away. 

On the drive, I'm imagining what the ruts and potholes would have done to the
front-end and tires of the Olds if it were towed the entire way (shudder!),
and congratulate myself for opting for the AAA *Plus* service, which tows you
100 miles for free, rather than the normal 5 or so (and for only $15 more a
year!). I ask the driver what this would normally cost- "Oh, we charge $56
just to get your car on our truck, and $5/mile afterwards." Needless to say,
AAA Plus service is Highly Recommended by this Oldsman.

Everything goes according to plan, he drops the VC off next to my project '70
SX, and slip the driver a bit of a tip. Spray some (lots of, actually) Lysol
as a first offensive assault. Oh, look at that, a third seat that faces
forward! Lets raise these seats and see what an Olds bus looks like... hmmm,
no budge. Push, pull, pry, shake- nothing. OK, lets try that back gate- hmmm,
lever in the middle does nothing. Electric rear window no longer appears to
be electified, though with the battery connected, I do hear a slight
"kathunk" when I turn the key in each direction. No obvious handles on the
outside. The middle handle on the inside lifts a bit before resisting; the
left-side handle offers *no* resistance- oh, that's a broken end of a cable
there...

Well, time to call it a day and get back home. I remind myself that I bought
this thing as a *parts* car, so I should suppress the urge I have to clean it
up a bit, maybe polish the paint, get that back gate open, perhaps put my
403's heads back on the 350 block when I'm done with the rebuild, perhaps
keep it as a parts chaser.... *SLAP*!!! It's a *PARTS-CAR* I remind myself,
and resolve to actually make back some of the purchase price by selling, you
know, *parts* off of it.

So there it sits, ready to be stripped. I'm taking the heads, the radiator,
the TH400 tranny, and probably the rear axle (10-bolt, but 2.5" wagon
brakes!), but the rest is up for grabs. It is located in Stratford, CT (next
to Bridgeport), about 50mi east of NYC, so if anyone needs VC parts, drop me
a note.

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 13:56:18 -0400
Subject: What size rear is a '72 10-bolt? 

I've got a '70 Cutlass Supreme SX with the stock Olds-style 12-bolt and 2.56
posi gears. I was thinking that the rear from my '72 VC wagon, with the big
rear brakes, might be a better rear, even though it is a 10-bolt.

Does anyone know the ring-gear size of each of these? I know the Olds
12-bolts weren't the same as the 8.875" Ch*vy 12-bolts, and had a 8.5(?)
gear, while the early corporate 10-bolts were 8.2" and the later ones were
8.5".

If the VC rear has the big brakes and a ring gear as big as my 12-bolt's, I
may as well swap the whole thing. Any insights or facts to shed light on this
decision?

BTW, where are the codes to identify the rear axle ratio, and whether it is a
posi or not? I don't think I'll get it running, so seeing if I can make one
or two black stripes in the driveway is not an option...

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 13:56:13 -0400
Subject: Olds AM/FM flippin' dial radio 

A couple weeks ago, someone asked about an FM-only Olds radio, and in the
course of the conversation, the topic of the Delco AM/FM radio that had its
dial flip to the appropriate band (ala James Bond license-plates) came up.
Someone saw a Pontiac installation, but not an Olds...

Well, in the '72 Vista Cruiser I just picked up for parts, lo and behold
there is just such a radio, and it looks to be a factory installation. It is
pretty neat the way the dial flips over. I'll try it out next week to see if
it works. 

If anyone is interested in adding this (apparently) factory option to their
Olds, this one is for sale.

------------------------------

From: gludlam@bcinet.net (Gregg Ludlam)
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 13:21:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Test 

>Greg Beaulieu wrote:
>> 
>> testing...

Hey Greg, test - SAT!     :)


- -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy

------------------------------

From: gludlam@bcinet.net (Gregg Ludlam)
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 13:09:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Salvage Yards?? 

>They also have a lot of used new and NOS parts for all Oldsmobiles, even my
57! >If you don't know how hard it is to  Get parts for this baby, you don't
want to >know!
>
>Willie!

Kindof like getting stuff for a '67 Toro...   :)


- -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy

------------------------------

From: gludlam@bcinet.net (Gregg Ludlam)
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 13:11:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Aluminum Rear Brake Drums 

>	In my book "How to Restore You're Musclecar" they mention that 
>some late 60s musclecars came equiped with aluminum brake drums.  They 
>sugested beadblasting them to clean them up

I know '69 Buick A-bodies had them in some applications - I remember coming
across a set for my '69 ragtop some years ago and thinking it was a goofy
idea: cast iron contact surface welded to aluminum - yikes!


- -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy

------------------------------

From: gludlam@bcinet.net (Gregg Ludlam)
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:50:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Salvage Yards?? 

>> 
>> I was hoping to make a trip down to the Maine, upstate New York and
>> Vermont area this summer.

I lived in Brattleboro, VT for 3 years and couldn't recall one good boneyard
in all of VT!!!  I used to travel to my hometown area of Harrisburg, PA for
my needs.  Can't speak for Maine, but upstate NY may be a bust - they use so
much salt on the roads up there that everything is rotted to oblivion.  As
for Fusick's in CT, I've bought quite a bit of stuff from them, both
mail-order and at Carlisle.  They're great and very knowledgable, but
pricey.  Good luck!


- -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy

------------------------------

From: gludlam@bcinet.net (Gregg Ludlam)
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:30:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Olds' for sale in CT/NY area 

>On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Gregg Ludlam wrote:
>> Go after that '68...first year of the 455-powered Toros, although in my
>> opinion, probably one of the butt-ugliest years too.  Hated that funky
>> grille with the hidden headlights behine the beehive and those goofy
>> wrap-around turnsignals!
>> 
>> 
>> -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy
>
>Hey, that's probably my favorite body style on those Toros! Butt-ugly? 
>Hardly!
>
>:-)

Yep, should've retracted that statement earlier...NO Toro could be
considered butt-ugly, just maybe not quite as awesome as the '66/'67 (note
slight tone of bias here)   :)


- -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy

------------------------------

From: conrad <rad19@icon.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 14:48:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Olds AM/FM flippin' dial radio

Bob0Barry@aol.com wrote:
>
> If anyone is interested in adding this (apparently) factory option to their
> Olds, this one is for sale.


I would be interested in it.. I have a 66 Toro that just has the stock AM in 
it.  Do you know if yours would mount in place of the standard AM radio?

I would also be interested in an OLDS AM/FM "WonderBar" as a suitable 
replacement for the AM I have now.

Thanks, Conrad

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 16:14:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Vista Cruiser operation questions 

You got questions?  We got answers!

1)  You're right, those levers are to *lower* the seat from the raised
position.  To lower your 2nd seat, push down on the forward edge of the
seat-back to release the filler panel. Pull up the floor panel and fold it
flush to the seat-back.  While holding the filler panel flush to the
seat-back, lift the seat-back up and rearward until it locks into the upright
position.

To raise the 3rd seat, fold the rear floor filler panel rearward (no latches
or releases).  Doing so will expose a seat-back handle.  Lift the seat-back
rearward until it locks in the upright position.

And I know this is your next question, to lower the 3rd seat, pull up on the
lock handle located on the passenger side neat where the cushion and the
seat-back meet.  Pull the seat-back down and fold the floor filler panel
forward.

2) With the outside key - turning to the clockwise (using the ignition key)
should lower the window, counterclockwise should raise it.  Or, with the
ignition to the on position, use the dash switch (you didn't mention this).
 The window should be down before the tailgate is opened. but I don't think
the tailgate police are going to come after you if it's not.  All electric
windows have a switch which prevents movement of the window unless the
tailgate is fully closed.  Is it?  If it is, then it sounds like you have an
electrical problem somewhere (or maybe a seized motor).  The engineers at
Oldsmoble probably designed that tailgate so that it couldn't be worked on
unless it's in the down position, kind of a Catch 22.  Sounds like a headache
to me.  You need to fix the window to put the gate down, but you have to put
the gate down to fix the window.  You're right again, this is a 2-way
tailgate.  The handle in the center of the tailgate opens it in a *gate*
position, the one on the left opens it in a *door* position.  That rear
bumper cut-out opens with the door and provides a step to get in the back
(why would you want to when the seat faces the other way?).

Most of the above is paraphased from my '72 owner's manual.  Sounds like an
awful lot of trouble for a parts car.  That is what it still is, right?

Paul Hartlieb

'72 Cutlass Supreme Convertible

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:17:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Test

On Sun, 24 Mar 1996, Willie wrote:
> Greg Beaulieu wrote:
> > testing...
> 
> What are you testing Greg? I'm Willie from Hawaii. I have a '57 Olds 
> Super 88. Whatcha got?

The list seemed to be having problems most of Friday and Saturday. I
didn't get a single message till this morning, not even my own. Don't know
what happened, but it looks like we're back now. 

Oh, and Willie, I've got a '68 Cutlass. Check it out on Bryceman's page 
(www.442.com).

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 17:37:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Vista Cruiser adventure (bit long...)

Sort of a spring-like weekend here so I thought I'd take the Cutlass out 
for a few hours and blow some of the cobwebs out. When I got back and 
logged in here it was an amazing coincidence to see Bob's excellent post 
about his Vista Cruiser adventure because I had one too.

I was about 60 miles from home and cruising along a side road when I came 
across an old garage/used car lot with a few old beasts parked outside. I 
thought I saw an early-70s Cutlass parked there so I turned around and 
drove back. Sure enough, when I got there I found a somewhat 
rough-looking '71 Vista Cruiser, blue with peeling woodgrain, just like 
Bob imagined. The fellow running the place was not the relic I imagined 
but a yuppie-looking type who popped out as soon as I got out of the car. 
"What's the story on the Vista Cruiser?", I asked.

"Matching numbers car, rebuilt the 455 last October, solid floors,
inspected, belongs to a kid near here. He wants $1200 and I think it's a
hell of a deal." 

I went to look at it. I don't know about "a hell of a deal", but if I had 
a facility I might be tempted to make an offer. The body doesn't have any 
real bad rust but would need a total redo. There's some leakage around one 
of the vista windows in the roof, so water has gotten inside but 
amazingly the floors are still solid and the seats (blue cloth, bench) look 
just fine, but the carpet is shot. Just as well since it's not the 
original but a green-gold shade that looks really nice with the blue... 
:) The dash has been a little butchered with a 3-guage panel being 
installed in the center. Car needs a windshield and the chrome would need 
to be redone. Like Bob''s it has the step rear bumper and the 2-way tailgate.

Popped the hood and sure enough, a 455 lived there. It sure didn't look
rebuilt though, with all of the dirt and rust it looked like it hadn't
been touched in years. Used to be a a/c car and the part that attached to
the firewall is still there but the compressor and hoses are gone. A nice
Delco Freedom battery was the cleanest thing there. Still, if it was
actually rebuilt, it wouldn't be a big problem to clean it up. 

The interesting thing was that there were about 4 Olds Club stickers on
the thing, including the Maine chapter which I have never heard of. 
Somebody cared for this at one time in the past. If you restored it, this
would be one neat car to use as a parts chaser or driver if you didn't
need to use it every day. Combine this one with Bob's parts car and I bet
you'd end up with a nice project.... 

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: OLDZ 442 <S_WTJAMES@vaxa.clarion.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 18:00:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Vista Cruiser adventure (bit long...) 

I am new to the list. I am glad to hear that you had your Cutlass out.
It makes me jealous mines still in storage!

WJ "OLDZ442"

------------------------------

From: GOOD TO THE LAST DROP <S_WTJAMES@vaxa.clarion.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 15:03:32 -0400
Subject: 1986 OLDS 442 

I have a 1986 Olds 442. Now I realize that it isint the muscle car that its
former was, but i would like to get a "throater" exhaust sound out of it.
I am about to replace the exhaust this spring and was looking for some advice
on what I should replace it with to give it the sound I want. The OEM exhaust
is reasonable but what could be better?
My father owns a reasonably rare 1973 Omega. Remember those? It has a original
350. The car has 80,000 original miles and is all original except for a few
minor things (tires, ignition system)

------------------------------

From: OLDZ 442 <S_WTJAMES@vaxa.clarion.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 15:09:49 -0400
Subject: 15" CHROME WHEELS 

I am in the search to find a set of four Oldsmobile 15" chrome rally
wheels. The ones I hope to find are the stock 1985-87 wheels that where
on the Cutlass 442 package.
Can anyone help me.

- -WES "the 442 man"

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 19:08:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Vista Cruiser operation questions 

In a message dated 96-03-24 15:21:03 EST, you write:

>
>You got questions?  We got answers!
>
>1)  You're right, those levers are to *lower* the seat from the raised
>position.  To lower your 2nd seat, push down on the forward edge of the
[snip of some excellent advice; probably obvious once you've done it]
>2) With the outside key - turning to the clockwise (using the ignition key)
>should lower the window, counterclockwise should raise it.  Or, with the
>ignition to the on position, use the dash switch (you didn't mention this).

Hmmm, when I turn the key, I hear a light "thunk" like a solenoid is working
something, but no motion. Perhaps a gallon of WD-40 down past the
weatherstripping might get things going...

> The window should be down before the tailgate is opened. but I don't think
>the tailgate police are going to come after you if it's not.  All electric
>windows have a switch which prevents movement of the window unless the
>tailgate is fully closed.  Is it?  If it is, then it sounds like you have an
>electrical problem somewhere (or maybe a seized motor).  The engineers at
>Oldsmoble probably designed that tailgate so that it couldn't be worked on
>unless it's in the down position, kind of a Catch 22.  Sounds like a
headache
>to me.  You need to fix the window to put the gate down, but you have to put
>the gate down to fix the window.

Yeah, no fun. I undid a couple screws on the inside of the back panel, hoping
that they released some access panel or something; finally I got to thinking
the moldy vinyl panel was covering it, so I ripped that off-no access panel.
:(

>Most of the above is paraphased from my '72 owner's manual.  Sounds like an
>awful lot of trouble for a parts car.  That is what it still is, right?

Well, I always have mixed feelings about this process: on the one hand, I
need the parts it has and the money that other parts would bring, but on the
other hand, a Vista Cruiser wagon would make a pretty cool family car (my
wife was complaining about how impractical our current 2-door is) with *lots*
of luggage space. But this car seems to be so far gone (rust around every
window, and it has *lots* of those!), and selling off things like the brakes
and doors might impair its driveability.

Plus, if I have the shell towed off for crushing, that's one less "classic"
Olds on the road for someone else to restore...

Come on people, convince me that I should just set a date to have it towed
off, pull and sell what I can before then, and be done with it! Otherwise, I
might start cleaning the interior, seeing if I can get some other heads to go
on the 350, patching up the rust, etc...

Boy I need help. If someone wanted that VC that Greg posted about seeing,
this would make a decent parts car (good glass, bad metal, some chrome,
excellent frame).

>Paul Hartlieb
>
>'72 Cutlass Supreme Convertible
  ^^
Hmmm, need any parts...? I'm willing to sacrifice the VC for a greater good
(and a CS convert is much greater than a VC)

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <jlabay@Phoenix.kent.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 19:41:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Salvage Yards??

Kind of like a 75 Cutlass too. I have found a ton of 74 and 76 Cutlass 
parts, but no 75. Still in need of a 75 Header panel and RF Fender.


Jason Labay                                            jlabay@phoenix.kent.edu
Akron, Ohio                                            xdsg80a@prodigy.com    
1975 Hurst/Olds W-25                                                          
1988 Camaro Z/28 CFI 305                                                      

On Sun, 24 Mar 1996, Gregg Ludlam wrote:

> >They also have a lot of used new and NOS parts for all Oldsmobiles, even my
> 57! >If you don't know how hard it is to  Get parts for this baby, you don't
> want to >know!
> >
> >Willie!
> 
> Kindof like getting stuff for a '67 Toro...   :)
> 
> 
> -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

From: "Dink" <heinle@jake.udayton.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 19:43:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Vista Cruiser operation questions

> 1) How do you raise the rear seats?
Well on our 77 grand safari (pontiac wagon w/403), which we sold about 8 
years ago.  the middle seat just flipped up, but i can't remember 
how the back seat comes up, plus ours faced the back not the front.

> In addition, the 3rd seat shows no obvious latches or releases. Does the 2nd
> seat have to be up to put up the 3rd seat?
wild guess, but i would say; yes.

> 2) How do you open the rear gate?
there was a key and handle on the outside of ours.

> All there is on the outside is a key, which
> seems to operate a solenoid of some sort when turned each way.
that activates the window, one directioon is up, and the other is 
down.

> handle on the left has apparently broken the release cable.
should be easy enough to fix.

> The handle in the center still moves, but feels like something is locked.
probably by a solinoid, the window has to be down for you to open it 
that way.

> It looks like this is
> a 2-way gate, either swinging out or folding down. Right now it does neither.
sounds right

> Does the rear window have to be down before you can open the gate?
for the middle handle which would make the door fold down the window 
must be down, but for the side handle the window could be up or down 
for the door to swing out. 

> And how are you supposed to open it from the outside? 
Well maybe when the motor worked you were suppose to put the window 
down and open it from the inside?

>The rear bumper has a cutout-type section on the passenger side; is
> that a hinge, or is it some kind of hidden release?
got me, our Pontiac was hinged on the driver's side.

Hope some of this helps...


Dink
80 Delta 88 Royale

{
Dink           Dayton, Ohio
http://homepages.udayton.edu/students/heinle/
Computer Information Systems Major @ UD
}

------------------------------

From: "Dink" <heinle@jake.udayton.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 19:53:59 -0400
Subject: Re: 1986 OLDS 442

> but i would like to get a "throater" exhaust sound out of it.
> I am about to replace the exhaust this spring and was looking for some advice
> on what I should replace it with to give it the sound I want.
I say Dynomax Super Turbo mufflers!  Also I would use mandrel(sp?) 
bent pipes for maximum flow.  If it was me I would ditch the cat's if 
you can.  They give it a more "throarty" note, than anything also a 
bit more louder.

I have a Dynomax super turbo (yep single exhaust) with 2 1/4" pipes and a test pipe on my 
80 Delta with a 307.  It is much improved over stock and has really 
"waked up" the car.

hope some of this helps.

Dink
80 Delta 88 Royale 307

{
Dink           Dayton, Ohio
http://homepages.udayton.edu/students/heinle/
Computer Information Systems Major @ UD
}

------------------------------

From: "Dink" <heinle@jake.udayton.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 19:56:05 -0400
Subject: Re: 15" CHROME WHEELS

> I am in the search to find a set of four Oldsmobile 15" chrome rally
> wheels. The ones I hope to find are the stock 1985-87 wheels that where
> on the Cutlass 442 package.

I thought they were 14 inchers on the 442's?  I found 15" rallye's from a 77' 98.

Dink
80 Delta 88 Royale

{
Dink           Dayton, Ohio
http://homepages.udayton.edu/students/heinle/
Computer Information Systems Major @ UD
}

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <jlabay@Phoenix.kent.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 20:11:09 -0400
Subject: Re: 15" CHROME WHEELS

Are the wheels all chrome? I have some with chrome trim rings and a 
chrome wheel ring on a 1984 Cutlass. The inner wheels are painted blue. 

Jason Labay                                            jlabay@phoenix.kent.edu
Akron, Ohio                                            xdsg80a@prodigy.com    
1975 Hurst/Olds W-25                                                          
1988 Camaro Z/28 CFI 305...soon to be LT4                                     

On Sun, 24 Mar 1996, OLDZ 442 wrote:

> 
> I am in the search to find a set of four Oldsmobile 15" chrome rally
> wheels. The ones I hope to find are the stock 1985-87 wheels that where
> on the Cutlass 442 package.
> Can anyone help me.
> 
> -WES "the 442 man"
> 
> 

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <jlabay@Phoenix.kent.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 20:13:53 -0400
Subject: Re: 1986 OLDS 442

I would go with a Flowmaster exhaust system. I have one on my 88 Z/28 and 
it makes the car sound real mean, although a little loud. I am going to 
put a flowmaster dual exhaust system on my 75 Hurst/Olds when I get the time
 
Jason Labay                                            jlabay@phoenix.kent.edu
Akron, Ohio                                            xdsg80a@prodigy.com    
1975 Hurst/Olds W-25                                                          
1988 Camaro Z/28 CFI 305...soon to be LT4                                     

On Sun, 24 Mar 1996, GOOD TO THE LAST DROP wrote:

> 
> I have a 1986 Olds 442. Now I realize that it isint the muscle car that its
> former was, but i would like to get a "throater" exhaust sound out of it.
> I am about to replace the exhaust this spring and was looking for some advice
> on what I should replace it with to give it the sound I want. The OEM exhaust
> is reasonable but what could be better?
> My father owns a reasonably rare 1973 Omega. Remember those? It has a original
> 350. The car has 80,000 original miles and is all original except for a few
> minor things (tires, ignition system)
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

From: "Dink" <heinle@jake.udayton.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 20:36:38 -0400
Subject: Re: 1986 OLDS 442

> I would go with a Flowmaster exhaust system. I have one on my 88 Z/28 and 
> it makes the car sound real mean, although a little loud. 

This is true if you want in my opinion an "obnoxious" exhaust. The 
Dynomax's are quit at idle and roar at WOT, but flowmasters are loud 
all the time.

Dink
80 Delta 88 Royale

{
Dink           Dayton, Ohio
http://homepages.udayton.edu/students/heinle/
Computer Information Systems Major @ UD
}

------------------------------

From: gludlam@bcinet.net (Gregg Ludlam)
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 20:43:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Salvage Yards?? 

>Kind of like a 75 Cutlass too. I have found a ton of 74 and 76 Cutlass 
>parts, but no 75. Still in need of a 75 Header panel and RF Fender.

Boy, that's weird.  As popular as the '73 - '77s were, I'd think you'd have
better luck.  Where are you?  I'll look around down here...there's a '74 or
'75 sitting about 3 miles from here with the motor out of it, but the
sheetmetal looks ok.  I'm in southeast NC, about 35 miles south of
Wilmington, NC.


- -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy

------------------------------

From: gludlam@bcinet.net (Gregg Ludlam)
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 20:36:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Olds AM/FM flippin' dial radio 

>I would also be interested in an OLDS AM/FM "WonderBar" as a suitable 
>replacement for the AM I have now.
>
>Thanks, Conrad

Conrad, CONRAD!!!! That Toro *needs* its correct AM-FM Wonderbar.  (No
offense, Bob - not trying to take your business away, but...) Chris Witt has
one he'll sell you, and if that doesn't work, let me know and I'll give you
the name and address of a guy in northeast PA that has 4 '66 Toros in his
boneyard, all with Wonderbars and the correct knobs in them.


- -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy

------------------------------

From: OLDZ 442 <S_WTJAMES@vaxa.clarion.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 21:07:11 -0400
Subject: Re: 1986 OLDS 442 

Dink.
Thanks for your advice on my exhaust. I just want a low rumble at idle,
a roar at acceleration and a low rumble at cruising speed.
The Dynomax seem right. I will ask around at the shops to see what can be
done. I think I'll keep the cat. split it after that and up over the axle
and out behind the wheels.
The factory wheels on the 442 were 15". 
Im also sure the were 15" on the Salon model also. The majority of chrome
(all chrome) wheels are 14" as some people mentioned. However rare there
are 15" out there somewhere. They have a gold colored inlay around the 
center caps. So if anyone knows where they hide them, Please let me know!!
By the way Dink, I had a friend who owned an 88. It was a real sleeper!
That 307 rocket is 
ways a real good runner. Thats what hides under the 
hod of the 442, with the different cam however, to make it a "H.O."
later
WES "OLDZ442" 

------------------------------

From: Roger Saladin <rsaladin@bright.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 21:51:39 -0400
Subject: Re: What size rear is a '72 10-bolt? 

At 01:56 PM 3/24/96 -0400, you wrote:
>I've got a '70 Cutlass Supreme SX with the stock Olds-style 12-bolt and 2.56
>posi gears. I was thinking that the rear from my '72 VC wagon, with the big
>rear brakes, might be a better rear, even though it is a 10-bolt.
>
>Does anyone know the ring-gear size of each of these? I know the Olds
>12-bolts weren't the same as the 8.875" Ch*vy 12-bolts, and had a 8.5(?)
>gear, while the early corporate 10-bolts were 8.2" and the later ones were
>8.5".
>
>If the VC rear has the big brakes and a ring gear as big as my 12-bolt's, I
>may as well swap the whole thing. Any insights or facts to shed light on this
>decision?
>
>BTW, where are the codes to identify the rear axle ratio, and whether it is a
>posi or not? I don't think I'll get it running, so seeing if I can make one
>or two black stripes in the driveway is not an option...
>
'72 service manual lists the following for the 4800 series (vista cruisers):
 
Gear ratio    gear teeth   std id    posi id
  2.73          41:15        TA        TB
  3.08          40:13        SM        SN
  3.23          42:13        TG        TH


All were 8 1/2" with 10 bolt. The book also says the letters (1/4" high!)
are stamped on the right front inboard side of the axle housing. If you
can still find them after these years, good luck. Should be three letters
(two for ID and one for manufacturer, tho it doesn't give that breakdown)
and numbers that indicate manufacture date.

------------------------------

From: Roger Saladin <rsaladin@bright.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 21:51:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Olds AM/FM flippin' dial radio 

At 01:56 PM 3/24/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Well, in the '72 Vista Cruiser I just picked up for parts, lo and behold
>there is just such a radio, and it looks to be a factory installation. It is
>pretty neat the way the dial flips over. I'll try it out next week to see if
>it works. 

>If anyone is interested in adding this (apparently) factory option to their
>Olds, this one is for sale.
>
Interesting. Did it have the tape player? Neither the sales lit that I have nor
the service manual mention one of these for '72, but the sales stuff does
show an AM/FM stereo with tape player that looks like it could be this
type of setup. Unfortunately, I don't believe it would fit the Cutlass, or
I'd probably be fighting for it.

------------------------------

From: conrad <rad19@icon.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 22:30:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Olds AM/FM flippin' dial radio

Gregg Ludlam wrote:
> 
> Conrad, CONRAD!!!! That Toro *needs* its correct AM-FM Wonderbar.  
> -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy


Okay Gregg..  I'm busted!!  I am interested in getting the stock replacement 
am/fm wonderbar.   What are am/fm wonderbar radios going for??

I'd like to know that individuals address regardless with the Toro boneyard.

Thanks, Conrad

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <jlabay@Phoenix.kent.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 22:39:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Salvage Yards??

Gregg, I think it is just bad luck when trying to get 75 parts around 
here. I need a header panel off a 75 only. As for the fender I need a 74 
or 75. I am in Akron, Ohio. If you do come across those two parts please 
let me know. Thanks...

Jason Labay                                            jlabay@phoenix.kent.edu
Akron, Ohio                                            xdsg80a@prodigy.com    
1975 Hurst/Olds W-25                                                          
1988 Camaro Z/28 CFI 305...soon to be LT4                                     

On Sun, 24 Mar 1996, Gregg Ludlam wrote:

> >Kind of like a 75 Cutlass too. I have found a ton of 74 and 76 Cutlass 
> >parts, but no 75. Still in need of a 75 Header panel and RF Fender.
> 
> Boy, that's weird.  As popular as the '73 - '77s were, I'd think you'd have
> better luck.  Where are you?  I'll look around down here...there's a '74 or
> '75 sitting about 3 miles from here with the motor out of it, but the
> sheetmetal looks ok.  I'm in southeast NC, about 35 miles south of
> Wilmington, NC.
> 
> 
> -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <jlabay@Phoenix.kent.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 22:42:34 -0400
Subject: 73 fender question

I sent this note before, but don't know if it went through when the list 
was acting up. I need to know if a RF fender off a 73 Cutlass will fit a 
75 Cutlass? My interchange manual says 74-75 will only fit my 75, but 
that 73 fender looks identical?


Jason Labay                                            jlabay@phoenix.kent.edu
Akron, Ohio                                            xdsg80a@prodigy.com    
1975 Hurst/Olds W-25                                                          
1988 Camaro Z/28 CFI 305...soon to be LT4                                     

------------------------------

From: conrad <rad19@icon.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 22:35:32 -0400
Subject: 66TORO Chrome Wheels

Anyone know where I can find a set of Chrome wheels for the 66 TORONADO?

I have a good set of steel wheels as partial trade.

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 23:31:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Salvage Yards?? 

In a message dated 96-03-24 22:01:02 EST, you write:

>much salt on the roads up there that everything is rotted to oblivion.  As
>for Fusick's in CT, I've bought quite a bit of stuff from them, both
>mail-order and at Carlisle.  They're great and very knowledgable, but
>pricey.  Good luck!

Where is Fusick's in CT? I know the name, but didn't know they were so close
to home.

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #128
********************************

