
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

oldsmobile-digest          Saturday, 9 March 1996       Volume 01 : Number 113


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From: Brad Nicholson <76062.3042@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 08:27:16 -0400
Subject: Toronado XSR Prototype

Anyone who was at the '95 Nats in Greensboro prpbably saw a grey primer 76 or
77 Toronado without any front trim.  If you looked close, you noticed that
this Toro had "T-tops"!!!!  This is THE PROTOTYPE for the XS model.  The
t-tops went into the center t-bar, one over the other, by electric motors and
the owner had a factory photo of the car parked next to an F-16.  GM nixed the
idea of electric t-tops due to the complexity of the system and warranty and
regular repair hassles that would eventually come up.  The owner is Don Ross
up in Conneticut and it was in the process of being restored to it's original
condition. Last I heard he was having problems w/ a rstoration guy in PA about
giving him some money to do work on the XSR and using it on other cars. I got
info from him about the car for an article and hope to finish it soon, maybe
send it to JWO.  I took a picture of it for posterity.

Brad Nicholson
1987 442
President, Capitol City Rockets
76062.3042@compuserve.com

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 10:19:00 -0400
Subject: Rear end Noise

Have two problems to ask you guys about that are probably related ( but maybe
not). First, when it is cold outside and the car has been sitting all night,
when I put it in reverse it has a resistance to backing up (almost feels like
the emergency brake is on slightly). When I hit the brakes after backing up,
there is an audible pop from the rear right. The next time I hit the brakes
after shifting into drive, the rear right wheel has a tendency to grab. After
that first time it brakes ok. I am thinking that maybe its the brake cylinder
on that wheel that could be a little rusted up. My second problem is that now
when I turn left or right I get a chick-chick-chicking noise from the right
rear! That to me sounds like a wheel bearing. Could these two problems be
related? I am going to take it apart this weekend but I thought I would see
what you guys think first.



          ___              ___        _________
         /   |            /   |      /         \
        /    |           /    |     |   ___    |
       /     |          /     |     |__|   |   |
      /      |         /      |           /   /
     /       |        /       |          /   /
    /   /|   |       /   /|   |         /   /
   /   /_|   |__    /   /_|   |__      /   /
  |             |  |             |    /   /
  |______     __|  |______     __|   /   /_____
         |   |            |   |     |          |      Pat Clark
         |___|            |___|     |__________|       69 442


   "Just your average 300+hp garage hogging, gas sucking, money pit"

------------------------------

From: edison3@cpeq.com (Mike Frederick)
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 10:26:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Fixin' the Delta

>>I've had to repair the horns on both of my Olds's ('64 Jetstar and '75
Delta). >>With the Jetstar, the problem was corroded contacts at the horn
relay.  I >>pulled the connector off and sanded shiny all metal contacts.
Gregg is >>correct that the single wire leading to the horns is 12V, and the
connection >>is completed by a good ground contact through the horn itself to
whatever it >>is bolted to.  So a good ground is also something to make sure
of. > >Another thing you can do is pull the horn out, use an ohmmeter and
check the >resistance between the horn's connection and its case.  It should
read >nearly zero ohms - there's a coil in there that should be good for a few
(8 >- 10?) ohms.  It's how I verified the Toro's horns were scortched - now it
>has '71 Caddy horns, and is quite happy...must be that great hornal
quality... > > >-Gregg, the '67 Toro guy > > > >

If you read infinite (full scale) ohms the coil is open and; therefore,
cooked. You can also jumper from the battery directly to the horn to eliminate
 wiring, horn buttons, relays, etc.  Just a quick touch will do, no need for a
meltdown


The 66 Toro and Mike



Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Inc.
Tampa, Florida
813.210.8649

------------------------------

From: edison3@cpeq.com (Mike Frederick)
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 10:30:19 -0400
Subject: Re: '71 442 convertible parts

>I am looking for some of those (usually) high priced parts for my '71 442: a
>complete OAI air cleaner (I already have the hood), and a set of grilles.
Maybe
>someone in the group has specific leads, but failing that, perhaps someone
can >point me to salvage yards in the tristate area around Philadelphia for
my own >exploration. > >In addition, as I will be trundling down to Florida
in the middle of March to stay in >the Sarasota/Tampa/St Petersburg area,
can anyone suggest likely yards in that >region to explore? I also understand
there are two or three Olds used parts dealers >in Florida, but I have no
idea where they are located. > >I know there are new grilles available from
companies like "The Parts Place", but I >find their price of $299 pretty
stiff.  Top to bottom OAIs are even more ludicrously >priced. I am not
looking for perfect specimens, so I should think there must be >sources of
reasonably priced stuff, but I need some guidance as to where to look. > >Any
help in this matter would be greatly appreciated. > >KR >Stan > > > Your best
bet is to drive up/down BUSINESS 19 in St. Pete/Clearwater and 301 in the
Tampa area, if you into a little exploring.  If you've never been here
before, the area gets pretty rustic once you leave the major cities. Lots of
neat stuff sitting around.

I see if I can find anything out about the Olds used parts dealers for you.

The 66 Toro and MIke



Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Inc.
Tampa, Florida
813.210.8649

------------------------------

From: david.chontofalsky@mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 11:53:17 -0400
Subject: Re[2]: H/O Digital Tach

>There sat a 75 H/O with a good hood (I got the ornament, Lucky
>me, huh?

Smart thinking... Shoulda grabbed the console Dual/Gate bezel
and little rocket emblem if that was there, too...

**Sadly mine is one of the Y-77's with out the dual gate shifter

>Anyone know where I can get a Digital Tach for a '74 H/O?
>This will roundout my otherwise NICELY equipped 74 Pace Edition.

Try "A Little Different, Ltd. in West Palm Beach, FL.  They used
to have them at about $200 each...  Their phone # is 407/640-4135.

This man is rude and an opinionated @#$@#$@$.  I had a very BAD experience
with him.  I purchased a few things from him all were fine except the decals,
the quality was exceptionally POOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I think i'd rather sit with
an exacto knife and blank decal stock and make my own as to purchase these
again from him.  $1,100 was entirely too much to pay for the quality decals he
is sell ing.

You can also pick up an Indy Pace Car decal set if yours is worn
or faded.

Wes Fujii

------------------------------

From: david.chontofalsky@mcmail.vanderbilt.edu
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 11:58:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Owners Registry

Greetings Oldsmophiles,
I made some changes to the Owners Registry today. It looks pretty good on
Netscape for the Mac. I am anxious to find out if it looks good with Windows
Netscape. If you have a chance, please check it out and let me know how it
works. I know the font format on Windows Netscape spaces differently than Mac.
I have heard that alot of people on the net dont like FRAMES, but with the
fast pace at which the Registry is growing, I needed a way to split the owners
up.  I ***What about splitting them up by years???*** am considering doing
this with some other areas of the Olds page too. Anyway, any feedback will be
helpful.

'65 442
'66 Dynamic 88 B07 Apprehender
bryceman@442.com
www.442.com

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 04:18:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Rear end Noise

     The rear brakes on those cars have an adjuster wheel that turns out
     gradually to compensate for wearing and thinning brake shoes.  Nobody
     wants to manually adjust those things (like you have to do with VW's),
     but if they made them adjust every time you stepped on the brake it'd
     be too much.  So, they're designed to turn the adjuster only when you
     step on the brakes going backwards.  That leads me to belive your
     problem somehow is related to this.  Maybe something became
     over-adjusted, disconnected, broken, stripped, etc.

     As sort of a poor-mans-brake-job tip, after replacing the rear shoes I
     was taught to drive around the block backwards using the brake a lot
     to force them to adjust themselves.

     Gotta replace the shoes on my '84 H/O this weekend... ugh.  I wish
     everything were as easy as the disc pads on my fiance's truck, took an
     hour to do both sides, including packing the wheel bearings.

     Tom L.


______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________ Subject: Rear end Noise Author:
oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET Date:    3/8/96 6:48 AM


Have two problems to ask you guys about that are probably related ( but maybe
not). First, when it is cold outside and the car has been sitting all night,
when I put it in reverse it has a resistance to backing up (almost feels like
the emergency brake is on slightly). When I hit the brakes after backing up,
ther e is an audible pop from the rear right. The next time I hit the brakes
after shifting into drive, the rear right wheel has a tendency to grab. After
that first time it brakes ok. I am thinking that maybe its the brake cylinder
on that wheel that could be a little rusted up. My second problem is that now
when I turn left or right I get a chick-chick-chicking noise from the right
rear! That to me sounds like a wheel bearing. Could these two problems be
related? I am going to take it apart this weekend but I thought I would see
what you guys think first.


------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 12:53:42 -0400
Subject: 77 455's???

> It was available on 1977 only.  I remember we only sold 2 in 1977.
Amazingly > so, this was not offered on the Eldorado nor Riveria to the best
of my > knowledge, this was an Olds Exclusive..... > David > > > Regarding
Rick Rickenbach's previous post......"You could get a Toro in > '77 with the
455"....... > > I thought the 455 was dicontinued at the end of '76.  Can
anyone else > confirm its use **after** '76?

> > You could get a Toro in '77 with the 455.  Mighta bin that XJS (whatever
:) > > package that's been discussed lately. > > > > >>>>>>To the best of my
knowledge 455 last availability in US models non > > Comercial was 1976 not
1977 > > The 1977 Brochure for Toro only lists a 403  ....David<<<<< > > I
used to think the same thing.  I have, however, seen several '77 Toros > for
sale with a 455.  I remember the XRS designation or something like > that in
the ads... > - -Rod

> >From all the sources I have available, it seems the last year of the
> big-block Olds 455 was 1976. The 403 was its replacement in 1977, and served
> duty in the downsized B and C bodies as the top motor, in the same way the
> Pontiac 301 was the base motor on some models in the downsizing effort;
> smaller cars, smaller motors.
>
> The 1977 XSR had the 403, from what I can tell. In fact, the Toro had the
403 > as its only motor, in 200hp form in 1977, and in 185hp form in 1978. The
'79 > Toronado and Riviera shared the downsized platform new for that year,
and > came with the gas 350 as the top motor.

> Went to scout the possibility of liberating that engine from that horrid
place > today- it's gone. The pile of engines is much smaller now. Maybe next
time.

> Yep, seen several - they even made them with T-tops, if you can imagine
> that!  And that rear glass is about $1500 to replace!!!
> - -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy

OK, I have a theory.

Fact: most manuals claim that the Olds 455 did not exist after '76

Fact: folks here avow that they HAVE seen '77's with 455's

Fact: Most Olds block, head, etc. codes progress naturally; the first big
block head was the A, then B, etc. up to K, but I got skipped for whatever
reason.

Fact: the last great well known big block was the F or Fa block 455.

Fact: L blocks exist, but are extremely rare.

Therefore, I propose that the L block just may have been the last hurrah, a
special run of engines used only for the '77 XS* cars, and possibly offered up
as marine/irrigation powerplants. After all, the intact-ish one I saw at that
God-forsaken scrap metal dealer here [@#%$#$^@$'s!] had J heads...

For proof that '77 455's exist, we need to see something like: an unmolested
original car, or a 455 block with VIN stamped in, like "37M######", the 7
indicating 1977 was the original car's year of issue.

Any of you that have a 455 or junkyard access, I'd be very interested in
hearing about any 455 block w/o the F or Fa casting ID!!! VERY interested.

Remember, you heard it here first!
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 13:04:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Rear end Noise

At 10:19 AM 3/8/96 -0400, you wrote:

>My second problem is that now when I
>turn left or right I get a chick-chick-chicking noise from the right rear!
That >to me sounds like a wheel bearing. Could these two problems be related?
I am >going to take it apart this weekend but I thought I would see what you
guys >think first.

Wheel bearing noises ought to be pretty easily diagnosed because they do not
depend on engine speed.  Find an empty parking lot and make your left or
right turn with and then without the car being in gear.
Also, if it is the bearings, the noise should change
or go away when you apply the brakes because the load on the bearings changes
as the brakes are applied.


************************************************
Daniel A. Gulino
Associate Professor and Graduate Chairman
Department of Chemical Engineering
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio  45701-2979
(614) 593-1495
(614) 593-0873 (fax)
gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu
http://www.ent.ohiou.edu/che/faculty/gulino.html
(or just open the window and shout!)
************************************************

------------------------------

From: Scott R Clark <mickeyd@selway.umt.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 13:10:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Owners Registry

> Greetings Oldsmophiles,
> I made some changes to the Owners Registry today. It looks pretty good on
Netscape for the Mac. I am anxious to find out if it looks good with Windows
Netscape. If you have a chance, please check it out and let me know how it
works. I know the font format on Windows Netscape spaces differently than Mac.
I have heard that alot of people on the net dont like FRAMES, but with the
fast pace at which the Registry is growing, I needed a way to split the owners
up.  I am considering doing this with some other areas of the Olds page too. >
Anyway, any feedback will be helpful. > 	Hmmm.  I got the blank page
treatment too using Netscape in Win3.11.  Any ideas? 	 
			Scott 		1960
Oldsmobile Rocket 98

------------------------------

From: Scott R Clark <mickeyd@selway.umt.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 13:17:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Washer pump

>      Quite a while back there was a discussion here about washer pumps and
>      the fact that the internal seals tend to dry out, and what to do about
>      them.


	On a similar note, any ideas on how to remove the wiper motor on
my 60?  After I first got the car, I tried the wipers and they sort of
raised halfway and quit...almost seemed to be giving me the bird!  I
"manually adjusted" them back to their original position, and decided to
worry about it later.  I didn't think about it again until I had the
ignition switch on for some reason or other and I brushed the motor with
my hand.  Ouch!  The thing was *really* hot!  I don't know maybe the last
owner put an 80 amp fuse in the thing, or something, but I think the
motor is burned up.  My stupid Chilton book dosn't mention how to remove
it anywhere (even if it did, it would probibly be something like "1.
Open hood.  2. Remove wiper motor..."  Anyway, anyone out there ever had
to try this before?
	
			Scott
		1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 13:20:33 -0400
Subject: misc

> The J head is a 82cc head where the E is a 77cc head.  You might see
> a 0.3 increase in compression ratio but there is some margin for
> factory error so heads may be +/- 2cc from this figure.  I would'nt

Where'd that info come from? Mondello lists all heads, except maybe the D's,
as having 79-80cc, give or take alittle. In fact, since you list the std.
error as +/- 2cc, then the 77 could be 79 and the 82 could be 80- a rather
small difference.
  If you want to be sure- measure your parts. It's the only way.
- --chris--

> If you want a core, use a '77 block.  Supposedly stronger due to fully
> webbed bottom end.

Rumor-monger!

> >I know of one that is in a junkyard near here.  I've always loved those
> Where are you located? Is it missing most parts, or semi-complete?

Yeah, can you check it for an L block and/or a '77 VIN on any big block?
- --chris--

> > I was wondering if the Pontiac 403 and Olds 403 are the same?
> There is no "Pontiac" 403.  Pontiac used the 403 (Olds motor) in Trans
> Ams (perhaps in their larger cars too) from '77-79 I believe.

Might be a subtle cam difference, but that's about it.

>      Well, Mondello lists both a high-performance cast iron and forged
>      steel crankshaft for the 350-403.  It doesn't say whether it's

The forged SB crank is nothing but a 330 crank. Notice how it says that you
will need an early pattern flexplate...? I have about 6 of those on hand
right now, so if you're building a killer SB and want a forged crank, here
they are...

> Wow, I left a note on this subject last week and did,nt get even one
> reply, so I guess I'll ask again.  Have any of you guys out there had
> any experience with roller cams in the olds 455.  I'm considering it,
> but there is limited availability, the prices are high, and I want to
> know what I can expect if I go this route.  Mondello sais that he
> does,nt recommend it for a street motor, but mostly because its so
> expensive for only a moderate gain.  He also said I would probably
> notice the gains in the low to mid range the most.

That's cuz none of us has the big bux required for that kind of endeavor. The
cam alone is like $300. Sheesh. I'd love to do that, for a race car, use a
Toro 425 block and 307 roller lifters, but, ya know, cash is hard to come
by... One can spend $2K easily just building a good stout normal engine...
And, if Joe says that the return per dollar is not that good, well, he oughta
know, that'w why he gets the big bucks. Law of diminishing returns, ya know...
going from 300 to 400 hp is easy, going from 400 to 500 much more difficult,
etc. - --chris--

> >That car wasn't a real W-30 because i didn't see the air scoops on the
bottom > Huh?  It was a '71 or '72, therefore it had the scooped hood - not
the circa > '68/'69 bumper scoops. > - -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy

Yeah, I thought that sounded odd- only the 68/69 W-cars had under-bumper
scoops. Rather susceptible to removal by curbs, driveways, parking bumpers,
etc. - --chris--

> I'd like to change out the glass in my '69 4-4-2 at some point.  I
> was wondering what the availability is of window glass and the cost
> involved.  Is there after market stuff around?  Or does anyone here
> have some around that's taking up valuable shop/garage space?
> Glenn '69 4-4-2 (in progress)

I do. But, since it's used, unless yours is missing, I can't see how what I
have would be any better.
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 13:50:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Rear end Noise (drums brakes aren't that hard to change)

In a message dated 96-03-08 11:46:20 EST, you write:

The original poster sounds like he's got a sticking brake cable, sticking
wheel cylinder, or a sticking adjuster. Replace all the hardware, just to be
sure, and lube the part of the shoe that contacts the backing plate with some
white grease (make sure not to get any on the brake material itself!) Shoes
and hardware should be less than $60, and since you probably need them
anyway... If there is any indication of fluid leaking from the wheel
cylinder, do that as well. For $90, your rear brakes can be like new
(assuming your drums can take another cut).

>    As sort of a poor-mans-brake-job tip, after replacing the rear shoes I
>     was taught to drive around the block backwards using the brake a lot
>     to force them to adjust themselves.

That's the way I do it; hey, make the brake adjusters do their job, since
that's what they're there for! I back off the adjuster all the way when
installing the shoes, then adjust it until the drums still slide on without
resistance. Then I just back up about 20 times down the driveway, pumping the
brake pedal as I go. When I no longer hear the "click-click" when doing this,
the drums are all set.

>     Gotta replace the shoes on my '84 H/O this weekend... ugh.  I wish
>     everything were as easy as the disc pads on my fiance's truck, took an
>     hour to do both sides, including packing the wheel bearings.

Shoes aren't all that hard, if you've got the right tools. Do you have the
tool for removing and installing the springs? And the one for removing the
retainer? Without them, the job is truly an all-afternoon bitch, but with
them I bet you could better your time doing the pads on your fiance's truck.
I usually put the car up on jackstands, take the drums to the shop for
turning, come back, do the shoes, and by the time I'm done with them, the
drums are ready (of course, you need another car to do all this).

In addition, it helps to empty a can of brake-clean on each rear brake
assembly to help minimize the grime you embed in the new shoes (place a
newspaper under the wheel to catch the grime that drips down).

It's not a bad idea to replace all the hardware for each wheel every 8-10
years, since the entire hardware kit is less than $20, and the failure of
these parts could be catastrophic. Of course, I haven't done this with my own
cars, but I *really* mean to, as soon as I do the shoes again.

------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 14:20:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Washer pump

At 01:17 PM 3/8/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>>      Quite a while back there was a discussion here about washer pumps and
>>      the fact that the internal seals tend to dry out, and what to do about
 >>      them. > > >	On a similar note, any ideas on how to remove the wiper
motor on >my 60?  After I first got the car, I tried the wipers and they sort
of >raised halfway and quit...almost seemed to be giving me the bird!  I
>"manually adjusted" them back to their original position, and decided to
>worry about it later.  I didn't think about it again until I had the
>ignition switch on for some reason or other and I brushed the motor with >my
hand.  Ouch!  The thing was *really* hot!  I don't know maybe the last >owner
put an 80 amp fuse in the thing, or something, but I think the >motor is
burned up.  My stupid Chilton book dosn't mention how to remove >it anywhere
(even if it did, it would probibly be something like "1. >Open hood.  2.
Remove wiper motor..."  Anyway, anyone out there ever had >to try this
before? >	 >			Scott >       	1960 
Oldsmobile Rocket 98


Scott,

I could write a book on windshield wiper motor problems!  I had a problem
with the wipers on my '64 Jetstar 88, and the problem ultimately turned out
to be a siezed wiper pivot on the passenger side.  The pivot post on which
the wiper arm is mounted was frozen solid and the motor had burned itself
out trying to push against it.  I had to get a complete new wiper transmission
assembly.  Fortunately, I was able to locate another '64 88 in a local
junkyard, and they let me remove the wiper transmission myself and charged
me only
$10 for it.

About the motor.  On my '64, there are several bolts (three, I think) that
hold the motor to the firewall.  Remove these bolts and pull the motor toward
yourself (disconnect all the wiring and washer hoses first).  If it's like
my '64 (and I don't think it would THAT much different), the motor will be
connected to the wiper transmission assembly via a cotter pin type
arrangement.  You push out the pin (it's actually more like a flat
washer open on one end that slips under the head of the pivot pin) and
that disconnects the wiper motor from the transmission.  Then you can
try moving the wiper transmission by hand.  As long as it moves freely,
the transmission is OK and you can look to the motor as the problem.

If it is the transmission that's somehow binding, you'll have to remove
the cowl to get at it.  But it's just a matter of removing several screws.
Just be careful not to scratch the finish as you are removing the screws and
handling the cowl.

If the problem IS in the motor, my advice is to try to find another one that
works.  I took apart the motor that came with my '64, and I couldn't see
anything wrong.  I went to a junkyard (different from the one mentioned
previously) and got another motor, this one from a '64 Cadillac that used
the same thing.  The yard guaranteed that it would work or I could return it
for my money back.  They charged me $40 for it.   As I recall, I called some
auto parts stores, and I could have gotten a rebuilt one for about $90.

One other thing I've observed with wiper motor problems is the condition of
the ground.  The wiper motor has to be well grounded to the firewall, or the
circuit won't be complete.  On my '64 there is a copper strap that fits under
one of the bolts that holds the wiper motor to the firewall, and the other end
of the strap fits under the head of a screw elsewhere on the wiper motor. This
strap can get corroded over time and fail to make good contact.  Take out the
appropriate bolts and polish that strap to a nice shine!

Good luck!


************************************************
Daniel A. Gulino
Associate Professor and Graduate Chairman
Department of Chemical Engineering
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio  45701-2979
(614) 593-1495
(614) 593-0873 (fax)
gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu
http://www.ent.ohiou.edu/che/faculty/gulino.html
(or just open the window and shout!)
************************************************

------------------------------

From: gludlam@bcinet.net (Gregg Ludlam)
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 14:28:24 -0400
Subject: Re: '68/'69 Carb Specs

>Only carb listed for a '68 Toro regardless of A/C status is 7028252. No
>specs listed on any of the rest of the things you asked for.

Hmmm, no kidding?  My Service Manual has a big old chart in it showing the
tag color, primary metering rod size (.044"), secondary metering rod code
(AU), and metering jet number (.071").

The reason I'm looking for all of this stuff is because I need to replace my
carb and I'm leaning toward a remanufacturer called Champion Parts.  They
don't sell one for a '67, but they have one for a '68/'69 and with some info
I could do the comparison I need.  My only other option is to buy a correct
one (#7027131), already redone, from a company in NJ for $225 - not a bad
price, but they want a good, identifiable core and mine has absolutely no
tags, numbers or other items that would let me i.d. it.  Therefore, the
company doesn't want mine, resulting in the price increasing to $375!!!  The
Champion rebuilt one is about $150.  Arrrrgggghh!


- -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy

------------------------------

From: gludlam@bcinet.net (Gregg Ludlam)
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 14:38:07 -0400
Subject: Bryce's Web Site

Bryce and All,

I also got the blank page trick - the "document status" bar at the bottom of
the Netscape window immediately read "DONE" as if there was nothing there to
download.  Good luck!


- -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy

------------------------------

From: edison3@cpeq.com (Mike Frederick)
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 14:55:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Owners Registry

>
>
>
>> Greetings Oldsmophiles,
>> I made some changes to the Owners Registry today. It looks pretty good on
Netscape for the Mac. I am anxious to find out if it looks good with Windows
Netscape. If you have a chance, please check it out and let me know how it
works. I know the font format on Windows Netscape spaces differently than
Mac. I have heard that alot of people on the net dont like FRAMES, but with
the fast pace at which the Registry is growing, I needed a way to split the
owners up.  I am considering doing this with some other areas of the Olds
page too.
>> Anyway, any feedback will be helpful.
>>
>	Hmmm.  I got the blank page treatment too using Netscape in
>Win3.11.  Any ideas?
>	
>			Scott
>		1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98
>
>
>
Running WfW 3.11, Netscape 2.0 (release, NOT beta), 800x640 SVGA,
the page was not blank however the header is not centered and I could
only see the "1960 - 1963" link.

The 66 Toro and Mike


Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Inc.
Tampa, Florida
813.210.8649

------------------------------

From: bryce_smith@442.com (Bryceman)
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 15:08:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Bryce's Web Site

>I also got the blank page trick - the "document status" bar at the bottom of
>the Netscape window immediately read "DONE" as if there was nothing there to
>download.  Good luck!

Yeah. Sorry. I guess only Netscape 2 supports FRAMES. I am devising a
work-around today. Thanks for the input dudes.

P.S. I drove the Apprehender to work for the first time in 5 or 6 years today.
What a great feeling. To bad it is not warm here, so I could roll down all of
the windows and play hookie from work.


'65 442
'66 Dynamic 88 B07 Apprehender
bryceman@442.com
www.442.com

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 07:48:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Bryce's Web Site

     Bryce (sorry, don't have your e-mail address handy),

     The web page looks fine under Netscape 2.0 for Win 3.1.  I think the
     other people were having problems because they were using netscape
     1.x, which doesn't support frames.  You need to code in a <NOFRAME>
     </NOFRAME> section for browsers that don't do frames.

     Looks good for those of us who can see it though!

     Tom L.

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 16:12:39 -0400
Subject: Re: misc (more on 403's and forged cranks)

In a message dated 96-03-08 12:29:56 EST, you write:

>> > I was wondering if the Pontiac 403 and Olds 403 are the same?
>> There is no "Pontiac" 403.  Pontiac used the 403 (Olds motor) in Trans
>> Ams (perhaps in their larger cars too) from '77-79 I believe.
>
>Might be a subtle cam difference, but that's about it.

Since one plant supplied the Olds 403 for all makes and models, I think that
they would go out of their way to use the same components across the board,
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
regardless of the application. Thus, the figures I've seen for the 403's hp
ranging from 175hp to 185hp might be due to the exhaust of the application
alone, though some versions had 7.9:1 or 7.8:1 rather than the usual 8.0:1
comp. ratio. The cam may be different between the diff. hp levels, but I
can't imagine them building two different cams for the 185hp motors.
Remember, this is GM's "bad old days" when engineering didn't count for much
(remember the first diesel 350? Olds small-blocks are tough, but not 22.0:1
comp. ratio tough!).

>>      Well, Mondello lists both a high-performance cast iron and forged
>>      steel crankshaft for the 350-403.  It doesn't say whether it's
>
>The forged SB crank is nothing but a 330 crank. Notice how it says that you
>will need an early pattern flexplate...? I have about 6 of those on hand
>right now, so if you're building a killer SB and want a forged crank, here
>they are...

If I find a non-windowed main 403 block, I'd like one of those 330 cranks.
What are you asking? Need machining? Balancing, though, with a 403's 4.351"
pistons might get me into adding lots of that heavy Mallory metal to the
crank, which could send the price into the stratosphere.

Since I've got to machine whatever crank I get, I might as well go for it,
and grind it .010" under at an offset. Lets see, a 3.40" stroke with a 4.381"
bore gives me... a 410ci small block Olds! With 2.07" intakes and 1.65"
exhausts, decent cam, hmmm....

Seriously, what do these cranks go for? If I'm going to take it over 5500rpm,
then I'd want one.

------------------------------

From: Mark Wolfe <markw@wwa.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 16:29:27 -0400
Subject: Re: misc (more on 403's and forged cranks)

Bob0Barry@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 96-03-08 12:29:56 EST, you write:
>
> >> > I was wondering if the Pontiac 403 and Olds 403 are the same?
> >> There is no "Pontiac" 403.  Pontiac used the 403 (Olds motor) in Trans
> >> Ams (perhaps in their larger cars too) from '77-79 I believe.
> >
> >Might be a subtle cam difference, but that's about it.
>
> Since one plant supplied the Olds 403 for all makes and models, I think that
> they would go out of their way to use the same components across the board,
> regardless of the application. Thus, the figures I've seen for the 403's hp
> ranging from 175hp to 185hp might be due to the exhaust of the application
> alone, though some versions had 7.9:1 or 7.8:1 rather than the usual 8.0:1
> comp. ratio. The cam may be different between the diff. hp levels, but I
> can't imagine them building two different cams for the 185hp motors.
> Remember, this is GM's "bad old days" when engineering didn't count for much
> (remember the first diesel 350? Olds small-blocks are tough, but not 22.0:1
> comp. ratio tough!).
>
> >>      Well, Mondello lists both a high-performance cast iron and forged
> >>      steel crankshaft for the 350-403.  It doesn't say whether it's
> >
> >The forged SB crank is nothing but a 330 crank. Notice how it says that you
> >will need an early pattern flexplate...? I have about 6 of those on hand
> >right now, so if you're building a killer SB and want a forged crank, here
> >they are...
>
> If I find a non-windowed main 403 block, I'd like one of those 330 cranks.
> What are you asking? Need machining? Balancing, though, with a 403's 4.351"
> pistons might get me into adding lots of that heavy Mallory metal to the
> crank, which could send the price into the stratosphere.
>
> Since I've got to machine whatever crank I get, I might as well go for it,
> and grind it .010" under at an offset. Lets see, a 3.40" stroke with a
4.381" > bore gives me... a 410ci small block Olds! With 2.07" intakes and
1.65" > exhausts, decent cam, hmmm.... > > Seriously, what do these cranks go
for? If I'm going to take it over 5500rpm, > then I'd want one.

Why not get a diesel 350, and do it with a 425 crank...   It comes out
to something like 454 cubic inches or something like that.   Modello
does a kit for it, you supply the block.    Thing is bullet proof too.
Cul,
Mark

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 16:37:52 -0400
Subject: Re: window glass

I'd like to change out the glass in my '69 4-4-2 at some point.

I recently (last summer) bought a brand new windshield for my 70 W-30 from the
 local auto glass installation house (Washington DC area).  I think I paid
about $170 since I carried it home and installed it myself.  They also had
listings for all 60s and 70s Cutlasses (a windshield for a 66 was $137).  I
didn't check on the side glass.

Joe Padavano
66-442
68 W-30
69 H/O
70 W-30




------------------------------

From: "Brian Ashley" <BASHLEY@alexandria.lib.utah.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 15:53:57 -0400
Subject: RCPT: Re: re;handling for a bodies

Confirmation of reading: your message -

    Date:     7 Mar 96  0:00
    To:      oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
    Subject: Re: re;handling for a bodies

Was read at 13:53, 8 Mar 96.

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 18:07:22 -0400
Subject: break-in

So, this killer 425 I am building for the 78 Cutlass race car, I bought moly
rings for heat resistance... And the car is gonna be *barely* streetable... is
there any suggestions for breaking in the engine, how best to convince the
rings to seat so he can cut himself some nice satisfying times?
Thanks.
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 18:16:19 -0400
Subject: Funny Ad

Auto Swapper ad:
'70 Chevy Cutlass Pace car [sic]
convertible, original restoration/ documented Indianapolis 500 pace car,
numbers match, $12,500
517-332-0284 Lansing

Heh. Yeah, that's the ticket! A CHEVY Cutlass, NUMBERS MATCH!!!

I saw one here last year, suspiciously similar in description and price, but
for some reason, the VIN indicated a 1971 body. Hardly a #-matching origina if
the BODY has been replaced... maybe this is a different car.

Page 34...
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: eric_b_buckner@non-hp-om.cv.hp.com
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 19:01:21 -0400
Subject: RE:break-in

Item Subject: cc:Mail Text
     >So, this killer 425 I am building for the 78 Cutlass race car, I
     >bought moly rings for heat resistance... And the car is gonna be
     >barely* streetable... is there any suggestions for breaking in the
     >engine, how best to convince the rings to seat so he can cut himself
     >some nice satisfying times?
     >Thanks.
     >--
     >Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

     Well Chris, now don't say I didn't warn you, but a barber named Dan
     (with some great stories) had a pretty wild story to tell one day:

     It seems that as a youngster (about my age, 23) he had just rebuilt
     his first engine with, of course, Chrome Moly rings. He said he drove
     it for about a week and the rings still hadn't seated (burning oil,
     nasty compR etc.) So one day he pulls into a garage/gas station
     smoking the place up with burning oil and the whole bit and this old
     mechanic comes running out yelling to shut the D*MN thing off. Dan
     (the future barber) explains that his rings are not seating and he
     doesn't know what to do about it. The old mechanic says he knows of
     only one way to get them to seat and walks over to the oil/fluid stand
     and picks up a quart of tranny fluid then walks over and opens up the
     hood and takes the air cleaner off. Of course Dan is flipping out
     thinking that this guy is going to dump tranny fluid down his carb.
     The mechanic then explains that there is some sort of chemical
     property in the tranny fluid that seats the rings immediately. So Dan
     ( a lot more trusting than I would have been) starts the car up and
     revs up to about 2500 and holds while the mech dumps the tranny fluid
     right down the carb and into the intake while yelling over the
     sputtering/ coughing engine that if Dan lets the engine _die_ it will
     be ruined. Then after about five minutes of sputtering ect. the car
     smoothed out and never burned oil again. Dan said that he never let it
     go below 2500 RPM and covered the whole block in bluish/purple smoke.
     I don't know how well this really works but It's the only solution I
     have ever heard other than letting them do it them selves. Anyone else
     ever heard of this "method"?
     Eric Buckner
     '64 F-85 deluxe
     Albany, OR


     is a disclaimer this is a disclaimer this is a disclaimer this is a
     * I claim no responsibility whatsoever for any tranny fluid poured*
                       *anywhere or into anyone's carb *
     is a disclaimer this is a disclaimer this is a disclaimer this is a

------------------------------

From: gludlam@bcinet.net (Gregg Ludlam)
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 20:16:47 -0400
Subject: RE:break-in

>     is a disclaimer this is a disclaimer this is a disclaimer this is a
>     * I claim no responsibility whatsoever for any tranny fluid poured*
>                       *anywhere or into anyone's carb *
>     is a disclaimer this is a disclaimer this is a disclaimer this is a

Wise choice...    :)  :)  :)


- -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy

------------------------------

From: urbanch@magi.com (Chris Urban)
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 20:57:28 -0400
Subject: Re: break-in

Chris if you get the proper ring end gap and piston to wall clearance the
break in required will be next to nill. The cam break in should suffice the
entire engine. Most people put in a piston to wall clearance closer to that
of a stocker instead of a performance engine and then require  a longer
break in. Seeting the pistons up looser will also allow the engine to rev
quicker, you can really feel the difference.




>So, this killer 425 I am building for the 78 Cutlass race car, I bought moly
>rings for heat resistance... And the car is gonna be *barely* streetable...
is >there any suggestions for breaking in the engine, how best to convince the
>rings to seat so he can cut himself some nice satisfying times? >Thanks. >--
>Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist >wittchri@pilot.msu.edu > > >

------------------------------

From: eric_b_buckner@non-hp-om.cv.hp.com
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 20:57:52 -0400
Subject: RE:Break in

Item Subject: cc:Mail Text
     BTW.. forgot to mention.....Dan the barber also has restored (then
     traded) a '61 ?super? 98. He now has a 700 horse Vega. So he's not
     just a barber...he's a street ripping, tire smoking kick a*s barber.
     Eric Buckner
     '64 F-85 deluxe
     Albany, OR

               ________________      ________    ___________
     ---------/ ______________/     / ____   \  / _________/
       ----- / /                   / /    \  / / /
            / /          ---------/ /     / / / /
           / /________ _________ _\ \____/ / /  \______
          /  ________//________//  ___   _/  \ _____   \
     ----/ /                   / /    \ \    -------\  /
        / /                   / /     / /           / /
       / /           --------/  \____/ / / /_______/ /
     -/_/                    \________/  \__________/




------------------------------

From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON@barracuda.bcinet.net> (by way of
gludlam@bcinet.net (Gregg Ludlam)) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 22:04:22 -0400
Subject: Toro Picture Web Site

To all:  sorry about posting this to the whole group.  Mike's address
bounced when I tried sending it directly to him.  Thanks for the
understanding...

>Hey -- does anybody have a (or know where one is)
>GIF/JPEG/Whatever of a 66/67 Toro?
>
>
>The 66 Toro and Mike

Mike,

It took me a while to find the web site address, but here it is:

        http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave/cars/

It's a shot of Dave Voorhis' '67 Toro Deluxe - if you're a regular on the
list, you'll recognize Dave's e-mail signature as "Dave, the other '67 Toro
guy".  We've become friends over the net through the Olds list, defending
our Toro honor against all those Cutlass owners!

If you haven't checked Bryce Smith's "Bryceman's Oldsmobile Page" yet?  In
it, he's got a copy of an article about the '66/'67 Toro, a reprint from
some magazine or book.  Pretty entertaining!   Enjoy...


- -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy

------------------------------

From: <mikehal1@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 22:12:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Owners Registry

>> Greetings Oldsmophiles,
>> I made some changes to the Owners Registry today. It looks pretty good on
>Netscape for the Mac. I am anxious to find out if it looks good with
>Windows Netscape. If you have a chance, please check it out and let me
>know how it works. I know the font format on Windows Netscape spaces
>differently than Mac. I have heard that alot of people on the net dont
>like FRAMES, but with the fast pace at which the Registry is growing, I
>needed a way to split the owners up.  I am considering doing this with
>some other areas of the Olds page too.
>> Anyway, any feedback will be helpful.
>>
>	Hmmm.  I got the blank page treatment too using Netscape in
>Win3.11.  Any ideas?


Works great on my PowerMac 7100 w/Netscape v2.0, Looks Great!...

BTW, my Mac wants to be a Oldsmobile when it grows up...


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Michael R. Hall               Ortonville, Michigan
E-Mail: mikehal1@ix.netcom.com
Owner: 1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass S, 380 horses of pure Mondello fun...
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

------------------------------

From: <mikehal1@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 22:12:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Funny Ad

>Auto Swapper ad:
>'70 Chevy Cutlass Pace car [sic]
>convertible, original restoration/ documented Indianapolis 500 pace car,
>numbers match, $12,500
>517-332-0284 Lansing
>
>Heh. Yeah, that's the ticket! A CHEVY Cutlass, NUMBERS MATCH!!!
>
>I saw one here last year, suspiciously similar in description and price, but
>for some reason, the VIN indicated a 1971 body. Hardly a #-matching
>origina if
>the BODY has been replaced... maybe this is a different car.


Oh great! A transvestite Oldsmobile....


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Michael R. Hall               Ortonville, Michigan
E-Mail: mikehal1@ix.netcom.com
Owner: 1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass S, 380 horses of pure Mondello fun...
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

------------------------------

From: <mikehal1@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 22:12:40 -0400
Subject: RE:break-in

>     It seems that as a youngster (about my age, 23) he had just rebuilt
>     his first engine with, of course, Chrome Moly rings. He said he drove
>     it for about a week and the rings still hadn't seated (burning oil,
>     nasty compR etc.)


Rule of thumb: Bore your cylinders, use chrome-moly
               Don't bore, use iron

Chrome moly practically never seat unless the bore is true...


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Michael R. Hall               Ortonville, Michigan
E-Mail: mikehal1@ix.netcom.com
Owner: 1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass S, 380 horses of pure Mondello fun...
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

------------------------------

From: Jeff Stanish <stanishj@svpal.org>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 22:25:41 -0400
Subject: Re: '68/'69 Carb Specs

I have had some friends try Carb Shop Ontario CA (909)481-5816 maybe they
can help! Later Jeff  I can't believe this is so RARE! the more I get into
my restoration the more common this stuff is just finding the right
people is the problem! A lot of these so called rare parts were coughed
out by the  1,000s you just have to dig em out but they're out there.
For example so called rare X and Z exhaust manifolds came on Vista
Cruisers how many were made,  a lot!

On Fri, 8 Mar 1996, Gregg Ludlam wrote:

> >Only carb listed for a '68 Toro regardless of A/C status is 7028252. No
> >specs listed on any of the rest of the things you asked for.
>
> Hmmm, no kidding?  My Service Manual has a big old chart in it showing the
> tag color, primary metering rod size (.044"), secondary metering rod code
> (AU), and metering jet number (.071").
>
> The reason I'm looking for all of this stuff is because I need to replace my
> carb and I'm leaning toward a remanufacturer called Champion Parts.  They
> don't sell one for a '67, but they have one for a '68/'69 and with some info
> I could do the comparison I need.  My only other option is to buy a correct
> one (#7027131), already redone, from a company in NJ for $225 - not a bad
> price, but they want a good, identifiable core and mine has absolutely no
> tags, numbers or other items that would let me i.d. it.  Therefore, the
> company doesn't want mine, resulting in the price increasing to $375!!!  The
> Champion rebuilt one is about $150.  Arrrrgggghh!
>
>
> -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: "Lowell V. Paden, Jr." <lvpaden@freedomnet.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 23:11:32 -0400
Subject: Carb advice wanted

Hi, Olds fans:
  I am new to this list, but boy is it active!
  I have a '72 Cutlass convertible, with the 350/2bbl engine. It has 189,000
miles on it, and it still uses no oil. 3,000 miles between changes and the
oil level stays on full. (My '94 Dodge Intrepid uses a half quart between
changes)
  Anyway, my trouble/irritation is the choke on the carb. I have to adjust
it with the seasons. This winter, we have had some warm days. With the choke
adjusted for cold weather, it really gets hard to warm up the engine when
the weather gets too warm (over 50 degrees). Once the engine warms up, it
runs fine.
  What is the consensus on this situation? Someone has suggested I slap on a
manual choke. That would fix it, but I had one on a previous car, and really
got tired of pulling the knob in and out all the time.
  Another friend has said I should check into replacing the carb with a
throttle body injection system. He thinks that there is a replacement that
will fit my manifold, fuel line, and throttle linkage. Is he right?
  I also saw something like an electronic choke replacement in the JCWhitney
catalog. Would you order anything from them?
  Or should I send my carb off to get it reconditioned? Would they do
anything with the choke setup? Is there some other problem? I have replaced
the choke pulloff. The choke butterfly moves freely.
  It sounds like some of you are serious mechanics. I have a friend who
might help me if any suggestions get too deep for me. I do basic work on the
car, up to rebuilding my carb, which I have done a number of times.
  Thanks for any and all suggestions.

Lowell Paden
Chester, VA
1972 Cutlass convertible.



------------------------------

From: "Shawn M. Twomey" <stwom@ctp.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 01:54:21 -0400
Subject: Stuff

>This is a pretty rare car to be parting out, are you sure its junk?

>>I need some help:  I just committed to buying a '69 W31 (non-442) that's
all >>apart but has all the original driveline (including the 4-speed).
First >>question, what rear-end gears did these cars come with, and how
likely were >>they to have Posi (all had it, most had it, etc.), and how can
I tell?  >>Second, I'd like to swap this rear-end into my '85 442.  Is it
possible, and >>if so, what kind of mods are necessary?  Thanks in advance.

No.  I haven't quite decided what I'm going to do with it yet, but I'll be
posting about it later....

____________________________________________________________________________
Shawn M. Twomey     |  "Work and work and love and sex
stwom@ctp.com       |   Aint you hungry for success success success SUCCESS!
                    |   DOES IT MATTER!?!"                   -Rolling Stones
____________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 08:10:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Carb advice wanted

I've made a career out of trying to get the 2-bbl carb on my '68 350 to
work correctly. They are really finicky, it seems. In my case I have 2
choices: I can set the choke where it will start instantly with just one
pump of the pedal to set it, in which case it will then run really rich
and sort of chug along until the engine warms up, or I can back it off a
bit to where it runs happily while it warms up, but will take several
pumps of the accelerator to get it going if it hasn't been started for
more than a few days. This is the route I've taken.

The problem seems to be that the choke pulloff doesn't work as quickly as
it needs to. The theory should be that the "instant start" setting is
correct and then that a combination of manifold heat and vacuum will get
the choke butterfly to open up quickly, reducing the amount of choke used
during warm-up. For whatever reason, mine won't do that (the fact that I
had to remove the diverter from the exhaust pipe that directs exhaust
through the intake during warm up probably has a lot to do with the way
mine behaves, so I'm living with it.

These things have a lot of adjustments but here are the ones you can play
with:

1. the choke rod (the long rod in sort of a lazy "Z" shape that runs from
the crescent-shaped choke lever to the choke butterfly) can be bent to
adjust for the degree of choke opening you want. This affects both
initial starting (see above) and operation during warm-up;

2. the thermostatic choke spring which should relax as it warms and let
the choke open more quickly can be adjusted for more or less spring
tension and thereby more or less choke during warm up by rotating the
round plastic cover. Mine is backed way off to compensate for lack of
manifold heat;

3. the fast idle screw can sometimes come into play if it is too far out
of adjustment one way or the other;

The whole process is very much hit-or-miss since you're bending rods and
such, and dealing with a number of variables. Plus you can only see how
well you've done by starting it when the car is cold, so it tends to take a
while to get it right.

I certainly wouldn't go to the expense of injection even if you could get
it. A manual choke perhaps but only as a last resort. The electric ones
from Whitney were intriguing and I almost bought one before I got to the
present state of affairs. I don't know how they work on an Olds but like
you I'd be interested in hearing about it. In my case I'm giving up on
the 2-bbl and am converting to a Q-jet, but not just for ease of starting...
:)

Good luck and let us know what you discover!

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 08:52:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Washer pump

>Another thing you may want to try. After I rebuilt my washer pump (remove 4
>screws, replace diaphram, replace 4 screws- $12.95 for the kit, 10 minutes of
>your time; highly recommended over an entire pump for twice the money), it
>still only spritzed, even though the lines were clean and connected. Then I
>looked in the bottom of my resevoir, only to find a layer of some kind of
>scum that was clogging the pickup on the tube that extends into the resevoir.
>
>So, before you rebuild the pump, check to make sure you can actually pump
>fluid out of the resevoir. Then rebuild it, since it is so cheap.

     One problem I've had involves the little plastic "crankshaft/gear
thingy!" inside the wiper motor.  The thing that actually drives the pump
piston.  I've seen quite a few of these broken out, so that the hydraulics
of the pump assy can be perfect, but the piston wont even move.  The wiper
motor runs, but the pump just clicks, with no squirt.
                   |
           ________|________
          {        |        } Charley Buehner
          {        |        } "Rockit 1"
          {        |        } buehner@cis.nmclites.edu
          {        |        } http://www.nmclites.edu/~buehner
          {        |        }
          {        |        }
          {        |        }
          {        |        }
          {       /|\       }   "There's no replacement
          {     /  |  \     }        for displacement..."
          {   /    |    \   }
          { /      |      \ }
          {       ]|[       }
          {       ]|[       }
          {       ]^[       }
          {       ]^[       }
          """"""""]^[""""""""
                   ^
                   ^

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 08:51:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Reformulated Gas (fwd)

>Since January 1, 1995, reformulated gasoline has been used
>in several Southern California counties which have poor air
>quality. This was required by the Federal Environmental
>Protection Agency. However, CaRFG will exceed these federal
>standards. It burns more completely than conventional
>gasoline and reduces emissions greatly: carbon monoxide and
>nitrogen oxides by 11%, sulfur dioxide by 80%, and benzene
>by 50%. The ARB estimates this conversion is equivalent to
>removing 3.5 million automobiles from the highways.
>
>The refining process for this gasoline is different and more
>expensive. The price increase is estimated to be from 5 to
>15 cents per gallon. It also reduces fuel mileage by up to
>3%. However, it also will bring with it lower volatility,
>that can result in longer starting periods and slower
>warm-up. But most importantly, older high-mileage vehicles
>may experience fuel system problems.
>
>Californians driving old or high mileage cars had better
>monitor their fuel systems for leaks with the new gasoline.
>One possible solution for the carburetor needle valve
>swelling is to replace it with a valve using precision
>ground steel balls.

     Sounds to me that our great grandchildren will have no idea what cars
are supposed to be like!
     Sure glad I'm in Montana.  I'll be 150 years old before that stuff gets
here.  (I hope...)
                   |
           ________|________
          {        |        } Charley Buehner
          {        |        } "Rockit 1"
          {        |        } buehner@cis.nmclites.edu
          {        |        } http://www.nmclites.edu/~buehner
          {        |        }
          {        |        }
          {        |        }
          {        |        }
          {       /|\       }   "There's no replacement
          {     /  |  \     }        for displacement..."
          {   /    |    \   }
          { /      |      \ }
          {       ]|[       }
          {       ]|[       }
          {       ]^[       }
          {       ]^[       }
          """"""""]^[""""""""
                   ^
                   ^

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 08:51:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Toronado Xperts: Seen any XSR's?

>Bob0Barry@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> In "The Complete History of General Motors, 1908-1986", there is a picture
of >> a 1977 Toronado XSR; what is unusual about this model is the *huge* >>
wraparound rear window, like the 1950's Studebaker. >> >> Has anyone ever
seen this model Toronado? Was this rear-window only available >> on this
model, and in 1977, or was this model offered in other years or on >> other
models?

     Yeah, there's one here in Havre.  It's a '77.  Really unique, 's far as
I can tell.  No idea if it was offered any other year, though.  I've seen a
few other body styles with the wraparound rear glass, too.  (Impala, Gran
Prix, and Monte Carlo SS all had played with that window at some point in
time.)
                   |
           ________|________
          {        |        } Charley Buehner
          {        |        } "Rockit 1"
          {        |        } buehner@cis.nmclites.edu
          {        |        } http://www.nmclites.edu/~buehner
          {        |        }
          {        |        }
          {        |        }
          {        |        }
          {       /|\       }   "There's no replacement
          {     /  |  \     }        for displacement..."
          {   /    |    \   }
          { /      |      \ }
          {       ]|[       }
          {       ]|[       }
          {       ]^[       }
          {       ]^[       }
          """"""""]^[""""""""
                   ^
                   ^

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Sat, 9 Mar 1996 08:51:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Cleaning parts -n- stuff. was Re: (no subject)

>	Hmmm.  A while back I bought a set of 16x8" aluminum IROC rims for my
>Camaro (I know, I know...not even an Olds) and I didn't have any problems
>fitting 245s on the back (could go wider).  The problems I have are with
>the front.  After I installed them with 205/50VR16s, I started having
>bizzar front end problems.  It would pull hard one way, and then a while
>later, it would pull hard the other way.  It really kept me on my toes
>since if I wasn't paying attention when it happened I would soon find
>myself off the road!!  Needless to say I changed the fronts back to the
>original wimpy 14x7" wheels until I figure out what the problem is.  The
>only reason I bring this up is it's just something to think about.  My
>struts and ball joints are getting really old, and that could have
>something to do with it.

     Those wider tires cause a large increase in road friction, which in
turn stresses the front end components out more.  One thing I'd suspect
immediately is that the tires were toe'ing out more than they should at road
speeds.  They will align just fine, but any looseness in the
steering/suspension will be amplified by the larger tires.  For this
situation above, I'd recommend bringing the toe in a little more (Maybe
1/8") to start with, and see how the car reacts.  Once different size tires
are installed, the factory specs for alignment can be thrown right out the
window.  There is then that session of educated guesswork to get things
correct.

                   |
           ________|________
          {        |        } Charley Buehner
          {        |        } "Rockit 1"
          {        |        } buehner@cis.nmclites.edu
          {        |        } http://www.nmclites.edu/~buehner
          {        |        }
          {        |        }
          {        |        }
          {        |        }
          {       /|\       }   "There's no replacement
          {     /  |  \     }        for displacement..."
          {   /    |    \   }
          { /      |      \ }
          {       ]|[       }
          {       ]|[       }
          {       ]^[       }
          {       ]^[       }
          """"""""]^[""""""""
                   ^
                   ^

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #113
********************************
