
oldsmobile-digest           Friday, 7 June 1996        Volume 01 : Number 197


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:01:19 -0300
Subject: timing

Pays to index your timing...
putting the new cam into the rece engine, old setting was +4 on the crank gear,
- -2 on the cam, for net of +2. Using those settings, the degree whell gave
Int Open 29 BTDC [sheet calls for 17]
IClose   42 ABDC [vs. 48 spec]

In short, after having the timing off a tooth once :) even tho it LOOKED OK, it
took about 4 tries to get it all right.

                              IO [0.050]          IC [0.050"]
  Specs                       17 BTDC             48 ABDC
  1: +4/-2                    29                  42     12 & 6 early
  2: 0/+2 [should be same]    16                  52     1 & 4 late
  3: +4/+2                    37 [oops, off by a tooth= 20 degrees]
     correct chain pos.       22                  44     5 & 4 early
  4: +4/0                     17                  48     right on the money.

so, the cheap roller timing set's "+4" setting on the crank gear and
a 0 degree bushing in the top gear gave the 'correct' figures.
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: "Meyer I. Stolberg" <mas@cci.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:21:28 -0300
Subject: FWD, RWD, left foot braking (long posting)...

Fellow over/understeering driving enthusiasts:

        I must insert my $2.00 (not 2 cents) here.  If you're not interested in
road racing concepts, please skip this posting.  This information applies to
all vehicles FWD, RWD, and 4WD.

        In addition to practical experience, my information comes from my
Grand Prix Road Racing and High Performance driving courses I took at Bob
Bondurant's School of High Performance Driving (do I get a t-shirt for the
plug, Bob?)

        Aaron wrote "Oversteer is the faster way around a corner, and
therefore favored in racing".  The fastest and safest exit from a corner is to
turn on the power after hitting the apex of the corner.  The apex is where the
inside tire touches the inside of the turn.  There are many apexes for a
corner depending upon where you enter the corner, where the corner ends, and
what happens to the course after this corner (straightaway, hairpin turn,
slalom, etc).

        By definition, understeer and oversteer are losses of tire patches.
If you lose tire patch, you are losing control (traction) and time (speed).
You want to match engine rpm (which turns the axles) to the wheel rpm (the rate
at which you're moving forward).  If your wheels are spinning and you are going
nowhere, you'll only move forward when the engine rpm slows to the wheel rpm.
You can accomplish this rpm matching by letting off the throttle or braking to
transfer weight forward to give you more tire patch at the rear of the car.

        If you are understeering due to sudden and rapid braking, you must
transfer weight to the rear to give you less tire patch to cause friction
(you have too much tire patch in the front!).

        Understeer and oversteer are independent of RWD or FWD.  In FWD cars,
most of the weight is upfront and hence understeer is imminent with so much
weight forward.  In RWD cars, oversteer occurs when a lot of power generated
at the rear of the car is not matched by enough inertia over the rear wheels.
Have you ever noticed how drag race cars have 90-95% of their weight in the
rear for maximum weight transfer?

        One last point Aaron: " begin to slide sideways, rotating the car to
the desired direction.  Once your facing the right way, a careful balance of
steering and throttle control will regain the lost traction and you can
accelerate out of the turn".  When you begin to oversteer and correct it (by
turning the car into the direction of the steer), your car behaves like a
pendulum.  After a few oscillations, you'll feel an instant where the car is
temporarily stable.  Now MASH the throttle without moving the steering wheel.
Your car will straighten out like a [favorite choir boy analogy].

        To put it mildly, Greg K., left foot braking is bad!  Racing school
drivers are taught to double-clutch and use heel-and-toe downshifting.  To stay
in the power band, the drivers brake in neutral with their toes and use their
heels to keep pressing the throttle until the apex, where they downshift into
the next gear at peak power!  Yes, their right foot is now spanning two pedals!
No possible coordination problems with one foot doing the work.  If you screw
up using two feet, you risk what Sterling Marsh (?)  once said "Slow in and
fast out is better than fast in and dead out"

        In addition, Greg K., professional road rallyists use the emergency
brake for hairpin turns.  Rather than brake and take an apex on roads with
poor traction, they prefer to oversteer the car by pulling up on the
emergency brake and then mashing the accelerator pedal.  I heartily admit one
should never do this on a street!

	I'm not trying to flame anybody.  Aaron and Greg K. understand the
big picture fairly completely.  Besides, I'm far from being an expert, but my
skills and theories were taught by professional drivers.  My last instructor
drives for Team Nissan (GTP cars, I think).  He had a lot of nice things to say
about his arch enemy, the boys from Oldsmobile.

        Sorry for boring anybody with a ridiculously long posting.

        Meyer
        1991 W-41, 1996 Z71 w/3rd door

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:59:54 -0300
Subject: 68-9 442's

Well, on the VIN vs. Trim Tag issue...

First off, we're talking ONLY 68-9 442's here. Yes, all other cars I have seen
have trim tag body style numbers that match the VIN's 1st 5 digits. 88's, 98's,
etc. are not the issue here.

My theory is that it was a new thing for a 442 to be 'its own series', so the
handiest thing to do was just switch the VIN to the 344... numbers and leave
the body tag alone- who cares?

And, Canadian built cars [some, at least] DO have trim tags that match the VIN
plate's "344..."

But, every 68-9 442 not built in Canada that I have ever seen has the "336..."
trim tag and a "344..." VIN. I just checked my Sport Coupe last nite, yep,
"33677..." It is a factory 442 W30. Rumored to have been a test car of some
sort...

Sorry about calling the 87 body style a Sport Coupe... I knew that the SC is 77
and the 87 is the pillarless "Holiday [right?] Coupe"

Typos happen... 4A, 4B, whatever....
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Dave Voorhis <dave@armchair.mb.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:10:03 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip, plus Aurora info 

At 11:29 AM 06/06/96 -0300, you wrote:
>On Jun 5, 11:27pm, Dave Voorhis wrote:
>>
>> 5. Front wheel drive, limited slip (I don't think such a thing is made)
>
>My fellow Oldsmofriends, the revered Oldsmobile deity hast produced a FWD
>creation with a limited slip differential.  It has dubbed this prince among men
>with a noble moniker, the 1991 Cutlass Calais Quad 442 W-41.  When the royal
>family switched from the Calais platform to the Achieva platform, the SCX (the
>new name for the W-41 package) also retained this limited slip to further the
>bloodline.

Indeedly do!  I stand corrected!  When I said "I don't think such a thing is
made", I SHOULD have said "I don't know IF such a thing is made."  Now I know.

A question, though:  How does the limited slip work in that 442 beastie?  If
you put full time mechanical limited slip (using clutches, cones, or
whatever) in the front, you can feel it when turning, as there's a definite
resistance to the front wheels turning at different rates.  That (other than
expense) I think, is why limited slip usually isn't put in front.  However,
a controlled limited slip (electronic, or something centrifugal like GM's
old "Gov-Lok" or equivalent) should work.

Dave Voorhis, '66 and '67 Toros
dave@armchair.mb.ca
http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave

------------------------------

From: urbanch@magi.com (Chris Urban)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:34:56 -0300
Subject: Re: timing 

Chris 

Are you using a degree wheel AND a dial indicator guage to dial in your cam
because without both of these you will never be accurate.


>Pays to index your timing...
>putting the new cam into the rece engine, old setting was +4 on the crank gear,
>-2 on the cam, for net of +2. Using those settings, the degree whell gave
>Int Open 29 BTDC [sheet calls for 17]
>IClose   42 ABDC [vs. 48 spec]
>
>In short, after having the timing off a tooth once :) even tho it LOOKED OK, it
>took about 4 tries to get it all right.
>
>                              IO [0.050]          IC [0.050"]
>  Specs                       17 BTDC             48 ABDC
>  1: +4/-2                    29                  42     12 & 6 early
>  2: 0/+2 [should be same]    16                  52     1 & 4 late
>  3: +4/+2                    37 [oops, off by a tooth= 20 degrees]
>     correct chain pos.       22                  44     5 & 4 early
>  4: +4/0                     17                  48     right on the money.
>
>so, the cheap roller timing set's "+4" setting on the crank gear and
>a 0 degree bushing in the top gear gave the 'correct' figures.
>--
>Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
>wittchri@pilot.msu.edu
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: eda@dl.tc.faa.gov
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:50:04 -0300
Subject: Re: 83/84 H/O Parts WANTED 

> spoiler), license plate #22520895, console shifter plate #22520892, H/O

Let me know if you find a source for (more than one) of those shifter
plates - dimwit previous owner torqued mine down *way* too tight :-(

Ed Atlee			'77 Cutlass Supreme
eda@dl.tc.faa.gov		'84 Hurst/Olds
	R O C K E T	P O W E R E D ! !

------------------------------

From: Nick DiGiovanni <ndigiova@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:26:46 -0300
Subject: Re: Misc. items 

At 09:22 PM 6/5/96 -0300, you wrote:

>I'm not following what you're trying get across here.  Are you saying it is,
>or it's not a 442?  Salesman's SPEC book lists a 442 Holiday Coupe as 4487,
>Cutlass Supreme Holiday Coupe as 4287 and Cutlass Holiday Coupe as 3687 for
>the V8 and 3587 for the L6.  No Cutlass 'S' in '68.  The 3 in front of these
>numbers stands for Oldsmobile.  According to that, his 33687 is the Cutlass
>Holiday Coupe, right?
>
>In relation to Greg's message which I read after I typed the above paragraph,
>the style number on the data plate and the beginning of the VIN have to
>match.  A 442 VIN should read 344878X100001: 3 for Oldsmobile, 4487 for 442
>Holiday Coupe, 8 for 1968, 'X' would be a letter designating which plant the
>car came from and 100001 naturally would be the sequence number of the car.
> If the body plate doesn't say 34487 too, then something sounds wrong.  If
>this gentleman's car had a 33687 on the body plate and 336878X100001 as a
>VIN, then it should be a Cutlass, not a 442.
>
>Paul
>
I came across this '68-'69 4-4-2 body plate/VIN # thing a few years ago when
I was looking at some to buy.  The first one that I went to go and see did
not match up.  The VIN # said 34487 but the cowl tag said 33687.  I
immediately thought the car was not correct and left.  The next car showed
the exact same thing and so did the third car that I went to look at.  I
said to myself "They can't all be trying to fake a 4-4-2".  I've heard of
people swapping VIN #'s from other cars but three in a row is a bit much.
You must remember that '68 was the first year that the 4-4-2 was a separate
model and not just an option anymore.  Because the 4-4-2 is basically the
same body as a Cutlass they continued to use the same cowl tags.  I figure
that the important part was to get the VIN # right and the cowl tag never
"caught" up with the VIN # until a few years later ('70).  The cowl tag will
still give correct paint codes and interior trim.  BTW, no cowl tag
differentiates a W car from a non-W car.  Also, the plant sequential # is
the unit # of that car that that particular plant made in that model year.
I believe that this includes all models that they produced.  Either way it
is a practically irrelevant #.



  
Nick DiGiovanni
Port Coquitlam, B.C.
1970 4-4-2 - "Snarls Softly and Carries a Big Kick"

------------------------------

From: Nick DiGiovanni <ndigiova@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:26:44 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip, plus Aurora info 

At 11:45 PM 6/5/96 -0300, you wrote:

>>7. Four wheel drive, limited slip front and rear
>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   this is known as All wheel drive...the Bravada didnt even get stuck when
>we were in the snow this year...damn good system...
>                    zack
>      ___
>     /. .\
>    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
>   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
>   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
>  /___\_/___\         "I only kill to know i'm alive"
> *************
>
I have a 4x4 Jimmy with limited slip front and rear and it is not called All
wheel drive in my manual.  As far as I know (someone correct me if I am
wrong) the All wheel drive system that you see on some mini vans is not true
4 wheel drive ie. all the wheels are not being powered all of the time.
As far as the front wheel drive cars, they have always been better in the
snow (I am speaking for my self) compared to a rear wheel drive car because
of the engine weight being placed right over the driving wheels.  I owned a
'77 Olds Delta 88 Royale (with the Olds 403!) and I always had to put
studded tires on and four spare tires with rims in the trunk for added rear
weight whenever it snowed.  I still didn't get much traction but boy did
sparks ever fly ;)

Nick DiGiovanni
Port Coquitlam, B.C.
1970 4-4-2 - "Snarls Softly and Carries a Big Kick"

------------------------------

From: Mike Coccagna <mikec@pop.kis.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:49:48 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip, plus Aurora info

> >>7. Four wheel drive, limited slip front and rear
> >    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >   this is known as All wheel drive...the Bravada didnt even get
[snip]
> I have a 4x4 Jimmy with limited slip front and rear and it is not
> called All wheel drive in my manual.  As far as I know (someone

Regarding the Bravada's All wheel drive (known as Smart-trak), it's 
an Olds exclusive.  Guess you could've spent the price premium for 
the Olds and gotten it, hunh?

Mike
'91 W-40 Quad442

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 21:00:19 -0300
Subject: Re: FWD, RWD, left foot braking (long posting)...

Meyer I. Stolberg wrote:
> 
> Sorry for boring anybody with a ridiculously long posting.

On the contrary, I found it very interesting.

> By definition, understeer and oversteer are losses of tire patches.

And therefore undesireable, neutral steering is what you want.  Right?

> You can accomplish this rpm matching by letting off the throttle or 
> braking to transfer weight forward to give you more tire patch at the 
> rear of the car.

Not sure I'm following you here.  Perhaps it's because I'm not exactly 
sure what you mean by "tire patch".  Is that the area of adhesion to the 
road surface as opposed to simply in contact with it.  I.E. a wet tire 
has contact but not necessarily adhesion.

> If you are understeering due to sudden and rapid braking, you must
> transfer weight to the rear to give you less tire patch to cause 
> friction (you have too much tire patch in the front!).

Now, here's where I really got lost.  

Earlier you said "understeer and oversteer are losses of tire patches.  
If you lose tire patch, you are losing control (traction)..."

If that is so, I don't follow how too much in the front translates into 
understeer (push).  It would seem the opposite, too little patch in the 
front, that is, loss of front traction (if that's what "patch" means).

> Understeer and oversteer are independent of RWD or FWD.  

Agreed.

> In FWD cars, most of the weight is upfront and hence understeer is 
> imminent with so much weight forward.

Perhaps, but I wouldn't think significantly so in similar types of cars; 
if both are front engined.  Case in point: The Toro's weight distribution 
is not very different from the Corvette's of the same era.

> In RWD cars, oversteer occurs when a lot of power generated at the rear 
> of the car is not matched by enough inertia over the rear wheels.

Lost again by the "inertia over the rear wheels".  It would seem to me 
that the inertia of the rear of the car is what tends to make the car 
oversteer rather than the lack of it.  As the car begins to turn, the 
inertia of the rear overcomes the traction of the rear tires and 
the rear swings towards the outside of the turn.  Where did I go wrong?

No flames intended here either, Meyer.  Just find the conversation 
worthwhile.

Another famous racing ditty:
"Before you can finish first, you first have to finish."


The (understeering) 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Lucas Frick <frick@macrochip.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 19:29:02 -0300
Subject: 442 in news group

I just posted a picture of my car in alt.autos.antique with the scanner I just got today.  The pictures will be going to Bryceman soon.  

Luke

------------------------------

From: jblair@exis.net (John T. Blair) 
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 19:39:42 -0300
Subject: [none]

unsubscribe

end
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ          email:  jblair@nhr.com
Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (804) 495-8229

48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget  65 Morgan 4/4 Series V
     75 Bricklin SV1   77 Spitfire

The one with the most toys, wins!

------------------------------

From: "Meyer I. Stolberg" <mas@cci.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 19:36:33 -0300
Subject: Re: FWD, RWD, left foot braking (long posting)...

Dear Mike:

I hope this response is more intelligible.

>> By definition, understeer and oversteer are losses of tire patches.

> And therefore undesireable, neutral steering is what you want.  Right?

Any condition (including understeer and oversteer) that causes the car to lose
control is undesirable.  When a car is in control, the driver is able to
manipulate variables (steering, braking, accelerating) to cause the vehicle to
do the driver's bidding. For example, if a car is skidding out of control, the
driver obviously doesn't influence vehicle direction or braking. The word
steering connotes changing the vehicle's direction.  The wordsmiths screwed up.

>> You can accomplish this rpm matching by letting off the throttle or
>> braking to transfer weight forward to give you more tire patch at the
>> rear of the car.

> Not sure I'm following you here.  Perhaps it's because I'm not exactly
> sure what you mean by "tire patch".  Is that the area of adhesion to the
> road surface as opposed to simply in contact with it.  I.E. a wet tire
> has contact but not necessarily adhesion.

I will be more specific here. The tire patch is simply the area of the tire
that contacts the road. Managing weight transfer is a key component in car
control.  When you accelerate, car weight is sent backward.  Therefore, there
is less contact patch in the front tires and more contact patch on the rear
tires.  Think of a balloon on a radiator.  The more weight on the balloon, the
more balloon material that comes in contact with the radiator.  Likewise,
braking sends car weight forward, decreasing the rear tire contact patches and
increasing the front tire contact patches.

>> If you lose tire patch, you are losing control (traction)..."

> If that is so, I don't follow how too much in the front translates into
> understeer (push).  It would seem the opposite, too little patch in the
> front, that is, loss of front traction (if that's what "patch" means).

I'll give another try at an explanation. When in an understeer, you have too
much contact patch under the front tires.  Irregardless of which way you turn
your steering wheel, the car will go in the same direction.  It's as if you're
being pushed off the road from behind. The easiest way to experience this is to
slam on the brakes (without the luxury of ABS) and try and turn the steering
wheel.  Please don't get into an accident trying this!

>> In FWD cars, most of the weight is upfront and hence understeer is
>> imminent with so much weight forward.

> Perhaps, but I wouldn't think significantly so in similar types of cars;
> if both are front engined.  Case in point: The Toro's weight distribution
> is not very different from the Corvette's of the same era.

Point taken. My unintended "rule" was meant to be a generalization.

>> In RWD cars, oversteer occurs when a lot of power generated at the rear
>> of the car is not matched by enough inertia over the rear wheels.

> Lost again by the "inertia over the rear wheels".  It would seem to me
> that the inertia of the rear of the car is what tends to make the car
> oversteer rather than the lack of it.  As the car begins to turn, the
> inertia of the rear overcomes the traction of the rear tires and
> the rear swings towards the outside of the turn.  Where did I go wrong?

I'll try a non-physics answer to this one. When skipping a pebble on a pond,
the pebble finally sinks in when the entire pebble is in the water.  When your
car feels "loose", it is beginning to skip like a pebble.  When the car finally
moves in the intended direction, it feels solid (opposite of loose).  You can
experience this in an empty parking lot by a sequence of five or so cones in a
straight line 50 to 100 feet apart.  Go through your mini-slalom at a very slow
speed first.  You experience a controlled situation.  Now try increasing your
speed each time by 5 mph or so each time.  At you approach the tire's adhesion
limits, you will feel the car coming "loose" in the rear. By letting off the
throttle or braking, your tires will begin to grip firmly again.  In an
oversteer, the direction the car travels is a function of which tire is
gripping more!

Meyer

------------------------------

From: pearson.11@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Chris Piersone)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 19:55:58 -0300
Subject: Duh!

I thought this might be interesting to you all..... you see the get away car 
was an.............. OLDS omega  =)




                                         
        COLUMBUS, Ohio, June 6 (UPI) -- A Columbus bank will be $100,000  
poorer Thursday -- or at least it will be after the damage is repaired at 
a Star Bank ATM machine. 
        Two thieves were discovered June 5 trying to fit a 1,000-pound bank  
vault into the trunk of their sub-compact car. 
        Columbus burglary detectives said the men crashed one car into the  
bank's wall to loosen an automatic teller machine. Then the men chained 
the ATM to the back of a second car and tried to lift it into the trunk. 
        Officers arrested Timothy Lebo, 39, of Obetz, and Charles Kinser, 32,  
of Northwest Columbus. Both were charged with breaking and entering, 
safecracking and aggravated theft. 
        A burglary alarm summoned police officers at 4:44 a.m. When officers  
arrived, Lebo and Kinser were trying to lift the ATM into the trunk. 
There was a large hole in the side of the building. 
        Bank officials hired a crane to hoist the vault back into position.  
They estimated the incident caused $100,000 in damage. 
                

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:00:57 -0300
Subject: Re: Stuff

Dan Williams wrote:
> 
> > My car has buckets/no console also. My shifter boot is not square but rather
> > kind of round/D-shaped and quite large. Sound correct?
> 
> 
> However, the 36 in fact is the designation for a V-8 Cutlass, where a 35 would
> be a V-6 cutlass.  The 87 is the Holiday Coupe (non-post) not the Sport Coupe
> (post - that is 77).    Don't worry, it is a
> real 442 (unless somebody faked the VIN).  I have never heard of a "bogus"
> oldsmobile, 

I believe that I have seen fake 442's.  All that is needed is the rear 
bumper, a little black paint for the grill, and a few emblems on the 
outside.  The 350 engines have a 400 look if no one is knowledgeable.

   As a side note, I do happen to have a 68 442
> VIN from a car I parted out.  I didn't take it with the notion to sell, but more
> as a cool trinket type thing.  How many people have a spare 68 442 VIN laying
> around (of course, how many would outside of this list?)

Dan:

My boot under the console is as you described - big and not quite 
roound. I didn't know that there were V6 Oldsmobiles in 1968.  I believe 
that they used the Chevy inline 6.  I also believe that no 442's were in 
the Cutlass Supreme type, but only Cutlass S types.  My convertible is a 
Cutlass S type as it has that style outside trim, short armrests, & 
Cutlass S type interior (deluxe of course), not the more plush Supreme 
type.

I have saved a W-30 of 1968 vintage VIN tag as a keepsake from what I 
remember as a red two door W/black bench seat.

Bill Culp

------------------------------

From: Nick DiGiovanni <ndigiova@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:09:15 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip, plus Aurora info 

At 06:49 PM 6/6/96 -0300, you wrote:
>> >>7. Four wheel drive, limited slip front and rear
>> >    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >   this is known as All wheel drive...the Bravada didnt even get
>[snip]
>> I have a 4x4 Jimmy with limited slip front and rear and it is not
>> called All wheel drive in my manual.  As far as I know (someone
>
>Regarding the Bravada's All wheel drive (known as Smart-trak), it's 
>an Olds exclusive.  Guess you could've spent the price premium for 
>the Olds and gotten it, hunh?
>
>Mike
>'91 W-40 Quad442

Yeaaah,.... but only one problem, Bravada's are one of those vehicles that
are only available in the U.S.  We don't see many of them up here (unless
they have US plates on them).  And if I wanted to buy one in the US and
bring it back, I would end up paying more than a premium with a 33% exchange
rate and then duty on top of that plus 7% GST and then who would warranty it
up here and.......

Anyways, mine is a company car/truck and it was the only sport utility
vehicle on the car policy list that I could chose from.  Now if they would
have an Olds, I would chose it.  Maybe in the Fall when the new list comes
out ;)


Nick DiGiovanni
Port Coquitlam, B.C.
1970 4-4-2 - "Snarls Softly and Carries a Big Kick"

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 21:31:29 -0300
Subject: Re: Paint Job 

In a message dated 96-06-06 07:55:58 EDT, you write:

>No, its not a Maaco job, it is someone I know well.

Oh.  Well, if it's someone you know pretty well, and seen their work before,
then you ought to be pretty safe.  No doubt your getting a big discount,
which explains the low cost.  Just hope he's not using a paint roller... ;)

Paul

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 21:31:24 -0300
Subject: Re: more and more '68ness 

In a message dated 96-06-06 05:23:52 EDT, you write:

>No "S" series on the books even though
>they exist; 4-4-2 series exists but not used in the trim tag codes.
>Strange. 

(Waving white flag)

I surrender.  Thought I knew pretty much about Oldsmobiles, and what I don't
know I have books to tell me.  So as it turn out, I don't know as much as I
thought I did, and the books aren't always correct.  I'll worry about this
more some other day when I actually own one of these vehicles.  Maybe I'll
switch over to Hudsons....

Paul

OK, this bugged me and I did a little more research.  I stand corrected.
 Next time I'm gonna check two sources before I open my trap.  Both the
Product Selling Features book and the Sales Catalog list the Cutlass S,
available as a Sport Coupe, Holiday Coupe and Convertible.  The Holiday Sedan
and Town Sedan were known a plain Cutlass.  As far as I can tell, this held
true for both straight sixes and V8 models.  So there.  Now that part is
settled.  I still give up on the 442 thing.  Pardon me while I go find me
Hemmings.  Maybe a nice DeSoto....

Paul

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 21:31:28 -0300
Subject: Flaming Toros 

Hey, which one of you Toro groupies wanted to plaster flames all over your
Toro.  Well, don't bother, someone already beat you to it.  Here's what I saw
when I was looking through Hemmings:

1975 Cadillac Eldorado convertible, white w/fresh yellow, orange & red
flames, white top, new interior redone in leather (burnt orange), anti-theft
device. new tires, new custom dual exhaust, custom chrome wheels [ala Toro?]
w/spinners, rebuilt front end, new top motor and relay, new A/C compressor &
condensor, drive this car anywhere in the US. $7995.

It was the photo which caught my eye.  So you needn't bother with the flames,
'cause it's been done.  Of course, maybe you could paint the flames coming
from the back, instead of from the front, and then you could drive around in
reverse and tell us what the traction is like? ;)

Paul

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 01:05:17 -0300
Subject: Re: Flaming Toros

PHartlieb@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hey, which one of you Toro groupies wanted to plaster flames all over 
> your Toro.  Well, don't bother, someone already beat you to it.

Groupie?  I guess that would be me.

And only a goof would paint yellow, orange & red flames on a white boxcar 
of a Eldorado.  Vroom-vroom!

Prolly has that gold plated crap all over it too.

> ... drive this car anywhere in the US.

Oh, yeah.  Anywhere but here.  Please!

> Of course, maybe you could paint the flames coming from the back, 
> instead of from the front, and then you could drive around in
> reverse and tell us what the traction is like? ;)

Arf-arf.


The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 01:08:14 -0300
Subject: Re: Paint Job

PHartlieb@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 96-06-06 07:55:58 EDT, you write:
> 
> >No, its not a Maaco job, it is someone I know well.
> 
> Oh.  Well, if it's someone you know pretty well, and seen their work 
> before, then you ought to be pretty safe.  No doubt your getting a big 
> discount, which explains the low cost.  Just hope he's not using a 
> paint roller... ;)


OR ... you could call that dork that painted the Eldorado.    ;)


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 23:19:28 -0300
Subject: Re: Stuff

At 05:09 PM 6/5/96 -0300, you wrote:
 the 36 in fact is the designation for a V-8 Cutlass, where a 35 would 
>be a V-6 cutlass.  

Wouldn't it be the L6??  An inline 6, not a V6?
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 23:19:30 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip, plus Aurora info

At 12:42 AM 6/6/96 -0300, you wrote:
>At 10:33 PM 6/5/96 -0300, you wrote:
>>Aaron Neumann wrote:
>>> 
>>> At 04:10 PM 6/5/96 -0300, you wrote:
>>> >
>>> >On Wed, 5 Jun 1996, Mike Frederick wrote:
>>
>>

**<HUGE SNIP>**

>
> _____
>|  |  |* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>|  |  | "..saw a Deadhead sticker on a Cadillac, a little voice inside     *
>|  |  |  my head said don't look back...you can never look back..."        *
>| /|\ |Aaron Neumann  Akron, OH neumann.12@osu.edu 75213.656@compuserve.com*
>|/_|_\|* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *	
>

Trim your replies, please!  You *CAN* edit replies before you send them, ya
know...
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 23:19:33 -0300
Subject: Re: Lots Of Stuff

At 12:18 AM 6/6/96 -0300, you wrote:

>Quick question...what's the deal with HEI? A guy at the parts yard was
>telling me how I could drop a HEI 'unit' from a later model car into my
>car. I didn't have time to talk shop then. I don't really understand the
>procedure/benefits, is it covered in the FAQ? If not, where might I find
>some info. 

I think there's info about that on Bryceman's Olds Page -- http://www.442.com
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 02:23:57 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip, plus Aurora info 

At 16.26 06,06,96 -0300, you wrote:
>At 11:45 PM 6/5/96 -0300, you wrote:
>
>>>7. Four wheel drive, limited slip front and rear
>>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>   this is known as All wheel drive...the Bravada didnt even get stuck when
>>we were in the snow this year...damn good system...
>>                    zack

>I have a 4x4 Jimmy with limited slip front and rear and it is not called All
>wheel drive in my manual.  As far as I know (someone correct me if I am
>wrong) the All wheel drive system that you see on some mini vans is not true
>4 wheel drive ie. all the wheels are not being powered all of the time.
>As far as the front wheel drive cars, they have always been better in the
>snow (I am speaking for my self) compared to a rear wheel drive car because
>of the engine weight being placed right over the driving wheels.  I owned a
>'77 Olds Delta 88 Royale (with the Olds 403!) and I always had to put
>studded tires on and four spare tires with rims in the trunk for added rear
>weight whenever it snowed.  I still didn't get much traction but boy did
>sparks ever fly ;)

ok...what i meant to say was the AWD is better than the 4wd...having driven
both in identical conditions...the smart-trak system was alot better than
the 4x4 jimmy that my brother in law had...
                    zack
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\         "I only kill to know i'm alive"
 *************

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 02:25:41 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip, plus Aurora info 

At 18.49 06,06,96 -0300, you wrote:
>> >>7. Four wheel drive, limited slip front and rear
>> >    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >   this is known as All wheel drive...the Bravada didnt even get
>[snip]
>> I have a 4x4 Jimmy with limited slip front and rear and it is not
>> called All wheel drive in my manual.  As far as I know (someone
>
>Regarding the Bravada's All wheel drive (known as Smart-trak), it's 
>an Olds exclusive.  Guess you could've spent the price premium for 
>the Olds and gotten it, hunh?
>
nope...it was also shared in the Syclone and typhoon..in 91 it wasnt
referred to as Smart-trak...just AWD...ST came in 92...now why couldnt they
put the twin turbo 4.3 in the bravada as well?
                    zack

>Mike
>'91 W-40 Quad442
>
>
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\         "I only kill to know i'm alive"
 *************

------------------------------

From: rmv@ix.netcom.com (rmv)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 02:49:19 -0300
Subject: Re: Starfire and Monza 2+2

>At the time (1974), the car model maker AMT, now a subsidiary of Ertl,
>I think, produced with much fanfare its annual-model Chevy Vega for
>1974 with two engine build options: regular or Wankel. Presumably they
>tooled up for that on the theory that the Wankel was just around the

The 1975 Starfire and Monza 2+2 had a floorpan designed for the Wankel
with a higher transmission tunnel for the higher rotory engine output
shaft.  The transmission tunnel was then lowered in 1976, after the
Wankel had been all but canceled.

>Yup. I remember a "sneak preview" in either Popular Science or Popular
>Mechanix magazines of what the Wankel-powered Monza would be like. The
>artist's illustration included round headlights instead of the newfangled
>rectangular sealed beams, too.

There is a nice picture of a DeKon Monza with the round headlamps in the
August 1976 Car and Driver.  I assume that the 2+2's were originally
designed for the round headlamps (as shown in the Popular Science
artist's illustration), but were changed before production in order to
be the first with the 'new' rectangular design (made possible by changes
in the headlamp regulations).  The rest of the Oldsmobile line soon
followed.

>But didn't the Buick Skyhawk with its V-something engine stuffed in
>require releasing a motor mount and jacking up the engine to reach
>the right rear spark plug? I assume an Olds Starfire, if it had the
>same engine, would cause the same grief?

Your thinking of the V8.  The 3.8L V6 fits quite nicely.  The 3.8L V6
evolved into the "3800" V6 in the late 80's and 90's.

Mike Van Auken
1979 Starfire GT
rmv@ix.netcom.com

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:02:57 -0300
Subject: Found in rec.autos.marketplace

Saw this in rec.autos.marketplace... my only relationship to this is I skiied
at Great Gorge in Vernon Valley once or twice as a kid :) 


    ---------------
1974 Olds, Cutlass. gd. running cond. $500 OBO. Vernon,NJ,USA. Ask for Melissa
at(201)764-3586
    ---------------



Tim Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'88 Cadillac Brougham, a.k.a. 'Big Blue' -- Olds 307 Powered!!
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:28:42 -0300
Subject: RE: Flaming Toros

So, the paint job is the ani-theft device?

- ----------
From: 	PHartlieb@aol.com[SMTP:PHartlieb@aol.com]
Sent: 	Thursday, June 06, 1996 8:31 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Flaming Toros

Hey, which one of you Toro groupies wanted to plaster flames all over your
Toro.  Well, don't bother, someone already beat you to it.  Here's what I saw
when I was looking through Hemmings:

1975 Cadillac Eldorado convertible, white w/fresh yellow, orange & red
flames, white top, new interior redone in leather (burnt orange), anti-theft
device. new tires, new custom dual exhaust, custom chrome wheels [ala Toro?]
w/spinners, rebuilt front end, new top motor and relay, new A/C compressor &
condensor, drive this car anywhere in the US. $7995.

It was the photo which caught my eye.  So you needn't bother with the flames,
'cause it's been done.  Of course, maybe you could paint the flames coming
from the back, instead of from the front, and then you could drive around in
reverse and tell us what the traction is like? ;)

Paul

------------------------------

From: Edison 3 <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:14:37 -0300
Subject: [none]



------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:44:38 -0300
Subject: Re: Flaming Toros

Joanne Beausoleil wrote:
> 
> So, the paint job is the ani-theft device?


Ha-ha!  It would have to be!       ;)


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Edison 3 <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:27:51 -0300
Subject: [none]



------------------------------

From: Edison 3 <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:13:23 -0300
Subject: [none]



------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:04:15 -0300
Subject: Re: My trip, plus Aurora info 

>If I were to rank
>traction capabilities, it'd be like this:  (From worst to best)
>
>1. Rear wheel drive, open axle
>2. Front wheel drive, open axle
>3. Four wheel drive, open axles
>4. Rear wheel drive, limited slip
>5. Front wheel drive, limited slip (I don't think such a thing is made)
>6. Four wheel drive, limited slip rear
>7. Four wheel drive, limited slip front and rear
>
>Note that RWD with limited slip beats 4WD and FWD without.

(Wow, I take _one_ day off of work and find _70_ messages waiting when
I get back!)

The Bonneville has FWD and traction control (which I guess is one of
the side-benefits of putting an ABS pump on board, then trying to figure
out what other options you can charge for). Where would you put that in 
the above list? I was mightily impressed in a parking lot after an ice 
storm when I put the car in the slipperiest part of the lot and tromped
on the gas: it very sedately got up and moved out, exactly where I wanted
it to go...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:14:22 -0300
Subject: Re: more and more '68ness 

> There were 59,577 of the 33687 model made for '68.  How can the body number
>be higher than production?  I think this is a sequence number of all of the
>"A" bodies coming out of the Lansing plant, regardless of body style (?).

Not to mention brand name... In 1972 when I toured the Framingham MA final
assembly plant, I watched Cutlasses and Skylarks coming off the same lines,
and I get the impression that they would not have separate body sequence
numbering, would they? IOW, Skylark body 98213 and Cutlass body 98213? In
parts of their early existence, the body number would be all they're
identified by, and I can't see how having two sets of A-body components
both stamped 98213 would help with the paperwork. I would imagine the body
numbering would be unique for each A-body produced, regardless of brand.

I assume that Chevelles and LeManses (LeManseses? :-) could have been
built in Framingham also; I only remember Skylarks and Cutlasses specifically
because my friend had one of the new Skylarks, and for some reason I remember
the gleaming fake louver castings on the hoods of the '72 Cutlasses gleaming
in the floodlights as the hoods came sailing down from overhead and were 
bolted onto the front ends as the cars came down the home stretch of the
assembly line.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:19:06 -0300
Subject: Re: '84 Cutlass V-6 

>And just a tad more info to pass along.  The idle of this car is very low
>when in drive.  Haven't actually measured it, but I would say no more than
>400-500 rpm just from listening.  The light hasn't ever came on while the
>car was in park or neutral at all.

I think if you look at the emissions/tuneup sticker on the core support
you'll find the idle listed as a preposterous 2200 rpm. It sounds like
hell if you really dial it up that high. Perhaps somebody, in a fit of
common sense, backed it down to something reasonable, but then the idle
in drive is _so_ low that the pressure falls and the light comes on.

>At worst before changing the oil, it
>stayed on for about 10-15 seconds while driving around the block.  Hasn't
>done that since.  Actually I would have to say that the situation continues
>to improve.  The light now goes out as soon as the engine is started both
>while hot and cold.

Excellent. A couple of short-term oil changes might be all you need.

>If I can get the damn pressure gauge hooked up I will
>definitely feel better about driving it like this.

Sure. But tell me again why you want to go to straight 30 weight at the
next change after running 5W-30 or whatever at this time?

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: J.Easton@zds.com (Jeff Easton)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:04:59 -0300
Subject: Radiators

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:44:58 -0300
Subject: Re: overheat...wrong pulleys?? 

>>  Still trying to find my overheating cause on the 455ci I just finished
>>building.  It has a new 3 core rad., 180 degree stat., new water pump and
>>clutch fan ( 5 blade).  

>You NEED a 4 core radiator.  You NEED a fan shroud and the biggest fan blades
>that will fit in the shroud.  The thermostat _should_ take care of any pulley
>size differences if you are using a matched set, i.e. from the same
>year/model. 

>Bob Handren  OCA# 7728

  Not sure what car we're talking about here, but my 1970 stock 442 came with
a 455, M-21 trans, 3.42 gears, no AC and whats termed "heavy duty radiator" 
which amounts to a 3 core.  It also came without a fan shroud, and a power 
robbing non-clutch fan of the four blade "X" type.

  It appears that if you ordered the 3.91 gear set, you got the 4 core, which 
also requires larger mounting brackets, which are welded to the core support.

- -Jeff Easton
Zenith Data Systems

1970 442  4-speed

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:25:57 -0300
Subject: Re: FWD, RWD, left foot braking (long posting)... 

>No possible coordination problems with one foot doing the work.  If you screw
>up using two feet, you risk what Sterling Marsh (?)  once said "Slow in and
>fast out is better than fast in and dead out"

Stirling Moss. Road & Track had an anecdote about him many years ago: 
It seems that he and a reporter were running late for an appointment 
somewhere in the rural countryside of England, and were blasting along 
at somewhat more than the legal limit when they got pulled over by a 
cop. The cop came striding up the window and barked, "'oo the 'ell do 
you think you are, Stirling Moss?"

"Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am."

The cop let him go with a warning and an autograph.  :-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:37:47 -0300
Subject: Re: more and more '68ness

> From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>

> Not to mention brand name... In 1972 when I toured the Framingham MA final
> assembly plant, 

Ahhh, lovely Framingham, me hometown!  I remember going on field trips to the
GM plant when I was a lad -- had family friends who worked there, too!
Tis a shame they closed it, in the mid-80s....  at that time, it was building
the Cutlass Ciera/Celebrity platform (A-body?)

> I assume that Chevelles and LeManses (LeManseses? :-) could have been
> built in Framingham also;

I believe they were.  And perhaps the plural of Le Mans is Le Mans' ?

...or is it Le *Mens*? :)



Tim Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'88 Cadillac Brougham, a.k.a. 'Big Blue' -- Olds 307 Powered!!
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:39:49 -0300
Subject: Re: more and more '68ness 

>(Waving white flag)
>
>I surrender.  Thought I knew pretty much about Oldsmobiles, and what I don't
>know I have books to tell me.  So as it turn out, I don't know as much as I
>thought I did, and the books aren't always correct.

The 1969 Pontiac dealer catalogs in my collection prominently showcase
the 1969 "Executive", which looked like another Bonneville clone (in
addition to the Catalina) and which as near as I can determine was never
built...?

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:45:31 -0300
Subject: Re: more and more '68ness

> I believe they were.  And perhaps the plural of Le Mans is Le Mans' ?
> 
> ...or is it Le *Mens*? :)
              ^^^^^^^^^
...which I think is French for "Urinal" :)



Tim Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'88 Cadillac Brougham, a.k.a. 'Big Blue' -- Olds 307 Powered!!
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: J.Easton@zds.com (Jeff Easton)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:21:04 -0300
Subject: Re: Drill Diagrams

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>

>>  I suspect that the factory drilled each car's fenders, etc as it came down 
>>the assy line.  Saves on stocking 30 different fenders, etc.

>No, I really think the holes were prepunched at some point in the process,
>in much the same way that the rivet heads for the molding (we're talking
>older cars here, with metal moldings) were attached before painting. When
>you're supplying an assembly line, you want as much as possible done before
>the part meets the car, and if you have a drilling jig with, say, six bits
>in it, that's a lot of sharp thingies to maintain and not break in the 
>course of drilling a new fender every 60 seconds or so. On the other hand,
>if you can mount those six sharp thingies in a die and punch holes while
>you're stamping the panel, the holes will always be oriented exactly right
>on the panel and in relation to each other. And even a production run of
>some low-quantity item like a 442 trunk lid (needing also holes for a rear
>spoiler, perhaps) would involve several thousand pieces, so it won't kill
>you to tool up for that. You take your previously-pressed Cutlass trunk
>lids and run 'em through one more production step before painting. Let
>the body shops worry about drilling the same holes in replacement panels.

  Two words, "inventory managment".  How would the factory know that the 
order rate for 442's is qty 1000 for this month, rear spoiler options qty 500, 
etc?  Seems that if they did this at Fisher Body, you would find a lot of cars 
built at the end of the year had welded up holes for 442 emblems and drilled 
cutlass holes, etc. when they were cleaning out the final assy plant.

  I agree that they were drilled before paint, but still think they were 
drilled (or punched) at the final assy plant.  The assembly manual seems to 
imply this, as they wouldnt call out instructions for drilling if they came 
from Fisher Body that way.

  I guess I should have paid more attention when I toured the Willow Springs 
(ILL) Fisher Body plant back in the late '70's (now, sadly, a UPS distribution
facility).  Pretty impressive watching these two story tall presses punching 
out fenders...

>Plus, of course, a drilled hole is not the cleanest thing in the world,
>and I think you can determine from looking at the old ones on a car whether
>they were punched, not drilled, probably prior to painting.

  If there is such a thing as an original, non-restored trunklid around. :-)

>Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431

- -Jeff Easton
Zenith Data Systems

1970 442  4-Speed

------------------------------

From: "G. Douglas Burton" <gdburton@seidata.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:53:13 -0300
Subject: Re: '84 Cutlass V-6 

At 10:19 AM 6/7/96 -0300, you wrote:

>Sure. But tell me again why you want to go to straight 30 weight at the
>next change after running 5W-30 or whatever at this time?
>
>Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
>Datalogics, Inc.
>441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
>Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473
>
With hot summer months ahead, I just want all the protection I can get
without going to extremes (SAE 50)!  I figure if the bearings are badly
worn, this will help them last a little longer than the 10W which is
artificially enhanced to achieve 30W status.
 

*************************************************************************
*          Another Meaningless Fact from Sluggo's Collection            *
*************************************************************************
       
Bela Lagosi was burried wearing his vampire outfit.

6-7-96

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:48:00 -0300
Subject: Re: more and more '68ness 

>Ahhh, lovely Framingham, me hometown!  I remember going on field trips 
>to the GM plant when I was a lad -- had family friends who worked there,
>too!

Me, too; my friend's dad was Jack Sheehan, who was at the time I think
a GM New England sales manager, or some similar lord-high-muckety-muck 
position, and got us a private tour of the plant and lunch in the executive
dining room. Never forgot that day. If you ever get a chance to tour a
factory like that, take it.

I last met him on a trip back to my hometown of Lynnfield, MA in the
fall of 1994, when he told me he had just ordered a new Aurora.  :-)
He and the family send their regards.

>I believe they were.  And perhaps the plural of Le Mans is Le Mans'?

No, it's probably one LeMan, two LeMans, etc. You know, as in "24 hours
of LeMans," etc...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 13:08:02 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: '84 Cutlass V-6 

When I first heard of running straight 30 weight oil with bad bearings, I 
likened it to an old mechanic's trick.  I think it doesn't thin out as much as 
multi-grade oils, even though the multi-grades provide 30 weight protection when
hot.  Anyone know for sure?

Buick V-6: Smokey Yunick found the Buick oiling system to have a lot of right 
angles and narrow passages.  It also oils the cam first, then the crank.  But 
current (lots of profanity here) ch*vy and f*rd V-6s do the same.  So it's 
probably the angles and narrow passages causing some problems.  Might also be 
the service manual that lists 7,500 miles as the change interval, if the car is 
second hand.

Better oil pressure, light out: Another reinforcement that it's never too early 
to change the oil and the best oil is clean oil! :)  Hope the problem is solved!
I like car repairs that turn out to be simple: clean this contact, change this 
filter.

David Brown          OCA #27978         (312) 702-9157
    "Oldsmobile - powerful roadsters with big V8s"
Send Olds FAQ request to: dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu

- -------------------
Excellent. A couple of short-term oil changes might be all you need.

But tell me again why you want to go to straight 30 weight at the
next change after running 5W-30 or whatever at this time?

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:03:59 -0300
Subject: Re: more and more '68ness

> From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>

> The 1969 Pontiac dealer catalogs in my collection prominently showcase
> the 1969 "Executive", which looked like another Bonneville clone (in
> addition to the Catalina) and which as near as I can determine was never
> built...?

I have a '67 Pontiac dealer brochure which also depicts the Executive...
and I`ve seen them in the flesh (or the sheetmetal, rather :) ).

Also, for 1967, the Tempest was the base trim level of the Full size Poncho.
FWIW...



Tim Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'88 Cadillac Brougham, a.k.a. 'Big Blue' -- Olds 307 Powered!!
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:12:57 -0300
Subject: Sorry

All,

Sorry for the null messages.  My computer seems to be bit-barfing this
morning.  Must be the Toro-virus.
 
The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:18:44 -0300
Subject: 68-9's, etc.

> Chris Brown Witt emailed me with his deciphering of the cowl tag info:
>
>         87 the Sport Coupe- no post, right?
                 ^^^^^
DOH! 77=Sport [pillared] coupe', 87= "holiday" coupe'...

> From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
> Subject: Mechanic's Glossary
> > HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is
> > used as a kind of divining rod to locate expensive car parts not far
> > from the object we are trying to hit.

- --snip--
Cute. Very Funny. I'll have to post that in the garage... -Chris-

> >  Still trying to find my overheating cause on the 455ci I just finished
> >building.  It has a new 3 core rad., 180 degree stat., new water pump and
> >clutch fan ( 5 blade).

When, under what conditions does the overheating occur?

> You NEED a 4 core radiator.  You NEED a fan shroud and the biggest fan blades

I agree. New big radiator is cheap insurance against roasted engine.
- -Chris-

> > - ------ I reiterate... If the 403's -BLOCK- ID is "4A" then BUY IT QUICK---
> Note- I think I erroneously stated earlier that the common block is the 4A..
> To set the record straight as far as we know based on Mondelo's info, etc.:
>                                                  BLOCK       HEAD
>   Common, not to get excited about                4B          4A
>   Rare, might be solid main web, investigate      4A         ? 4A presumably

Further study of the Tech Manual indicates that there are TWO different "4A"
blocks- one of which is [almost] assuredly a solid main web unit, the other may
or may not be. In either event, the "4B" block is the most common, and all are
open main web- yawn.
  And, if you thought the array of 330, 425 engines was bewiuldering before...
seems there's -3- different 425 blocks: 45x0.842, 39x0.921, and 39x0.842 lifter
bores... and a 30-degree 330 block, listed as used "64-67" in the T.M., but I
would not believe that the #3 block was available before 1966, when other
blocks also began to have the 39 degree cam bank angle. Weird- early series
engines with later cam bank angle, yet small lifters.
  Oh, and the 425's- have 2 different sizes of drill spots on that rib at the
ID shelf... or none at all...   --Chris--

> I'm not following what you're trying get across here.  Are you saying it is,
> or it's not a 442?  Salesman's SPEC book lists a 442 Holiday Coupe as 4487,
> Cutlass Supreme Holiday Coupe as 4287 and Cutlass Holiday Coupe as 3687 for
> the V8 and 3587 for the L6.  No Cutlass 'S' in '68.  The 3 in front of these
> numbers stands for Oldsmobile.  According to that, his 33687 is the Cutlass
> Holiday Coupe, right?

His car is indeed a 'real' 442. From what we know so far, anyhow. Fact: The 68-9
442's, except maybe those built in Canada, commonly had Cutlass Supreme body
[trim] tags: 336__.  Oh, and I have a '68 Cutlass S parts car, so I'm pretty
sure they made them. Had the fancy hood, like a 442.
  Other years, other models, other groups of cars DO have trim tag body style
numbers that match the VIN to 5 digits.
  *Why* this particular group of cars have non-matching VIN-Trim Tags is one of
the Great Unanswered Questions. For a list of the others, consult the Guide.

>  If the body plate doesn't say 34487 too, then something sounds wrong.  If
> this gentleman's car had a 33687 on the body plate and 336878X100001 as a
> VIN, then it should be a Cutlass, not a 442.  Paul

Yeah, IF it were any year or model other than 68-9 442... -Chris-

> However, the 36 in fact is the designation for a V-8 Cutlass, where a 35 would
> be a V-6 cutlass.  The 87 is the Holiday Coupe (non-post) not the Sport Coupe
       ^^^
Ooops! That 6-banger was the C*evy L-6, the standard plain-Jane straight 6.

> real 442 (unless somebody faked the VIN).  I have never heard of a "bogus"
> oldsmobile, but have seen it a lot in the Ch*vy world.  In fact, a lot of peop

I have.. a recent visitor was quite proud that he had concocted a 1972 "W30"
that was so complete and correct that it had fooled all the judges. So... OK,
if the judges call it a 'correct W30' isn't that good enough? Real enough?

> sell things like Z/28, SS VINs.  As a side note, I do happen to have a 68 442
> VIN from a car I parted out.  I didn't take it with the notion to sell, but mo
> as a cool trinket type thing.  How many people have a spare 68 442 VIN laying
> around (of course, how many would outside of this list?)

I have a spare Vista VIN/ body tag... kept 'em for reference, for the numbers,
shape, size, etc. -Chris-

> >      36 the basic body style- Cutlass S I believe is the 442 base body
>
> No, no Cutlass S for '68.  Just plain Cutlass.  I don't understand the "442
> base body" bit.  The body was either a Cutlass, Supreme or 442.  Yes, 442s
> were the same body styles as a Cutlass, but they didn't take Cutlass bodies

Well, apparently, that's exactly what they did. The 68-9 442's were
differentiated from lesser Cutlasses in VIN only [again, EXCEPT Canadian-built
cars...] -Chris-

> Sorry I'm having such a hard time with this.  I just went out in the garage
> and looked at my '67 98.  Both the body tag and VIN tag have 38457 on them.
>  I once had a '68 Delta Custom and both tags had 36639.  We've had '66 and
> '67 Toros where both numbers had 39687 in them.  This seems to be a pattern,
> so I can't understand why they would number the 442 differently. Paul

Different animals.... no comparison. -Chris-

> - -1966 Toronado, 89k miles, maroon in/out, $6000 restoration - $3500,
> 817-267-2116

Beats that $13,000 price seen last week...

> Quick question...what's the deal with HEI? A guy at the parts yard was
> telling me how I could drop a HEI 'unit' from a later model car into my
> car. I didn't have time to talk shop then. I don't really understand the
> procedure/benefits, is it covered in the FAQ? If not, where might I find
> some info. Thanks! BeaTniK

Read the article on the web page... www.442.com
Yep, HEI is generally considered a Good Thing. Benefits: updated ignition
system, no points to replace, wear out, etc. Detractions: not "original" [keep
the original dist'r if this disturbs you].
  Procedure- pretty easy, see the web page.
- -Chris-

> were only F-85, Cutlass, Supreme, and 4-4-2. The more this gets discussed,
> the less sense the thing makes. No "S" series on the books even though
> they exist; 4-4-2 series exists but not used in the trim tag codes.
> Strange. Greg Beaulieu

Count your blessings, Greg, at least there aren't 3 different kinds of 350
engines with different cam bank angles & lifter sizes... -Chris-

> I though that this was interesting after the Fordnatics pretty much said
> we were full of crap Re: Warped Rotors.

That's easy to say.... when blinded by taillites of the 442!

> | Another Fordnatics post -- Author retains copyright -- ask before forwarding

Well, me too, then!
All my posts shall henceforth be copyrighted, don't you dare quote them or you
will be eyed suspiciously!
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: J.Easton@zds.com (Jeff Easton)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:03:10 -0300
Subject: Re: Solid Web 403's

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
> > From: Mike Hall <mikehal1@ix.netcom.com>

> > 403 Olds Solid Main Web Engines
> > 2500 produced
> > Block Casting #557265-4A or 553990-4A
> > Mostly found in certain 1977 Buick Station Wagons built in 1976.
> > Can be found in Pontiac Bonneville (year?) with tow package.
> > Can also be found in 1979 Pontiac Trans Am with tow package and block
> > casting #554990-4A
> > Block casting number is found behind the timing cover between the oil
> > fill tube and the oil sending unit.
> > Source: Mondello Olds V-8 Engine Technical Reference Manual
> > Michael R. Hall                            Ortonville, Michigan

  Among the things I noticed was, first, the Solid Main Web 403 info as stated
above... The USUAL 403 block is "4B" with "4A" heads, so the KEY, FOLKS, seems
to be:
- - -------------------- LOOK FOR 403's WITH "4A" BLOCK ID --------------------
Now, he does not state that -all- "4A" blocks are solid main webs, but it is a
far better chance than a 4B block... Seems to me I saw a 403 with a 4A block
once, but can't recall where and did not note it in my database... so it's
lost.
- - -------------------- Mind you, NOT the HEAD  ID !!! ---------------------
- - --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist


  Hope this doesnt incite a riot, but a co-worker has a Ch*vy Capr*ce with a 
403 in it.  I went out and looked at it and it is indeed a -4A block (has 4A 
heads too).  This isnt the original motor for the car.  He had it replaced 
by a friend of a friend and a couple of weeks ago it dropped a valve.  Its 
sitting in a parking garage in Buffalo Grove, Il if anyones interested. :-)

  If there's real interest, I can scrape the rest of the goo off and get the 
whole block casting number and try for the stamped VIN also.  I'll need to 
bring in a flashlight and mirror though...

- -Jeff Easton
Zenith Data Systems

1970 442  4-Speed

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:37:13 -0300
Subject: Re: 68-9's, etc.

Chris Brown Witt wrote:

QUOTE

> All my posts shall henceforth be copyrighted, don't you dare quote them 
> or you will be eyed suspiciously!

ENDQUOTE

Uh-oh.    :o


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:35:54 -0300
Subject: Re: Drill Diagrams 

>  Two words, "inventory managment".  How would the factory know that the 
>order rate for 442's is qty 1000 for this month, rear spoiler options qty 500, 
>etc?  Seems that if they did this at Fisher Body, you would find a lot of cars 
>built at the end of the year had welded up holes for 442 emblems and drilled 
>cutlass holes, etc. when they were cleaning out the final assy plant.

I'm really stretching now so take this as nothing but a wild-assed guess:
I think they _tried_ to know, although back then the I.M. at GM was not the
greatest in the world. John DeLorean had some good examples in his book,
"On a Clear Day You Can See General Motors", about the proverbial inventory
manager who had no idea where he was going to find enough brown steering
wheels, so he'd order from three suppliers just in case, then wind up in a
sea of brown steering wheels. Granted, all their trunk lids were coming from
the same place, but they would indeed try to plan for some sort of numbers.
You can special-order a car, but you don't get to tell the factory exactly
when to build it. They could batch them as they see fit.

>  I agree that they were drilled before paint, but still think they were 
>drilled (or punched) at the final assy plant.

Could be -- anytime before painting would be fine, and you don't require
a huge press just to punch holes. An alignment jig and a portable punch
would be enough.

>The assembly manual seems to 
>imply this, as they wouldn't call out instructions for drilling if they came 
>from Fisher Body that way.

No, but you have to document the necessary steps for dealers doing retrofits
or body shops doing repairs, and they of course have to deal with whatever
body panels they have. ("Step 1: Erect 200-ton press."  :-)

>  I guess I should have paid more attention when I toured the Willow Springs 
>(ILL) Fisher Body plant back in the late '70's (now, sadly, a UPS distribution
>facility).  Pretty impressive watching these two story tall presses punching 
>out fenders...

Hey, small world! I got a tour of that place too, back around 1975 or so
after I moved to Chicago...

Anybody out there toured the Technical Center in Warren, MI or the
Proving Grounds in Milford?

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:51:15 -0300
Subject: Re: more and more '68ness

> Also, for 1967, the Tempest was the base trim level of the Full size Poncho.
> FWIW...
> 
> 
> 
> Tim Churchill

To paraphrase Al, " I don't think so Tim"

The Tempest was the base trim level of the pontiac intermediate size car

It went:

Tempest
LeMans
GTO

Kind of equivalent to:

F85
Cutlass S
442




  Pat Clark
   69 442
  400/TH400
clark@abu.com

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 13:09:49 -0300
Subject: A Full Size Tempest (Was Re: more and more '68ness)

> > Also, for 1967, the Tempest was the base trim level of the Full size Poncho.
> > FWIW...

> 
> To paraphrase Al, " I don't think so Tim"
> 
> The Tempest was the base trim level of the pontiac intermediate size car
> 
> It went:
> 
> Tempest
> LeMans
> GTO
> 

Pat, I'm gonna look in the brochure as soon as I get home....

I know Tempest was used on the intermediates later, but I'm almost positive
in the brochure it lists it on the Full Size body style instead (or perhaps
as well?) of the intermediate body... I remember thinking it odd that they did
that.  Will report what I find on Monday.

If I'm wrong, I'll eat my brochure (Not! :) )

*Now*, back to *Oldsmobile* discussions! :)



Tim Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'88 Cadillac Brougham, a.k.a. 'Big Blue' -- Olds 307 Powered!!
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: BRAD.NICHOLSON@s3abac8.ssa.gov
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:56:22 -0300
Subject: Baltimore Area People? 

     How many members on this list are in the Baltimore, MD USA area???
     
     If anyone wants to, I know of a Drive-In movie theater that has 
     Saturday night cruises every week.  I'm tired of seeing people w/ 
     bowties or blue ovals all the time.
     
     Brad Nicholson
     1987 442 W-42
     President - Capitol City Rockets Chapter, OCA
     76062.3042@compuserve.com

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #197
********************************

