
oldsmobile-digest          Friday, 26 April 1996       Volume 01 : Number 158


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <null@supptec.com> (dave)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 11:47:20 -0300
Subject: NTMail List Server

Thank you for requesting HELP about the list services we provide.
This list server is an additional part of NTMAIL and supports the
following commands.


LIST SERVER COMMANDS:
- ---------------------
This list server will accept one of the following commands:
HELP             This help file.
HELP list_name   Return a description of a particular list.
JOIN list_name   Join a list (the command SUBSCRIBE may also be used).
LEAVE list_name  Leave a list (the command UNSUBSCRIBE may also be used).

The command must be in the FIRST line of the message that you send
to the list sever otherwise it will be ignored.  All other lines
in your mail message will be ignored.  For example, to join
the mail list about NTMAIL, you would send a email message
to list@net-shopper.co.uk with the following body:
	JOIN NTMAIL-UPDATE

------------------------------

From: <null@supptec.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 11:47:20 -0300
Subject: List Processor Results.

 1: oldsmobile-digest         Thursday, 25 April 1996      Volume 01 : Number 157
    Unknown command: oldsmobile-digest

No valid command found - sending help.
    Successful

Completed processing request at Thu, 25 Apr 1996 10:47:21 -0400

------------------------------

From: Travis L McWaters <travism@utdallas.edu> 
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 11:55:04 -0300
Subject: Re: Junkyards 

> 	One thing I have noticed about this junkyard though, is that when 
> you take your stuff back to the office to pay for it, there are two types 
> of guys you find there.  The "cheap" guy, and the "expensive" guy. . . .
> 	Anybody else have junkyards like this around?

I thought every Junkyard in the world was run this way.  The only exception I
can think of is places like "Pick-N-Pull" where they are scrapping mostly
late model cars and they have a fixed price list posted near the gates.

One thing to remember, though, is that it is ok to negotiate with these
guys on price.  I'm not suggesting anyone be rude, but say something like
"well, would you take $5 for it?"  Some of you might be supprised at the
results you can get just talking with people a little bit.  In most cases
they'd rather try to cut you a deal and end up with a little less cash than
have both of you leave empty handed.

- -- Travis and "Tiny" the 69 Olds 98 Convertable

------------------------------

From: SG Hartfelder <stanh@bernie.compusmart.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 12:56:06 -0300
Subject: Radio Problem 

        When I purchased my 1938 Oldsmobile in February this year it already
had an AM/FM/CASS deck installed.  It's a Clarion unit, model 3580RC and was
installed about 1.5 years ago.  The problem I have is that the specification
sheet describes the power at 20w x 4 and when I turn it up a bit or try to
increase the bass response it sounds quite distorted.  The rear speakers are
6x9 and the front speakers are 5.25 round.  All of the speakers are also
Clarion.

        What I'm wondering is:

        1.  Is something not hooked up properly?  How could I diagnose this?

        2.  Should I add a power amplifier & a sub-woffer?

Any help will be appreciated.

Stanh@compusmart.ab.ca
1938 - Oldsmobile Street Rod

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 11:06:24 -0300
Subject: Re: Radio Problem 

>The problem I have is that the specification
>sheet describes the power at 20w x 4 and when I turn it up a bit or try to
>increase the bass response it sounds quite distorted.  The rear speakers are
>6x9 and the front speakers are 5.25 round.  All of the speakers are also
>Clarion.
>        1.  Is something not hooked up properly?  How could I diagnose this?

Perhaps the speakers are out of phase -- your (+) wires go to, say,
the right terminal on one speaker but the left terminal on the other.
Thus one speaker diaphragm is pushing out while the other is pulling
back, and the bass pulses are getting muddy. You need them both pulsing
in synch to feel a clear deep bass. 

>        2.  Should I add a power amplifier & a sub-woffer?

I wouldn't. If it's muddy now, it's not going to get any clearer with more
power behind it. And if it's overboosting the speakers now (what are their
power ratings, anyway?), a power amp will blow them right out of the panels.

>Any help will be appreciated.

I'd start by doublechecking that the power ratings of the speakers are
sufficient for the output of the stereo, and that all the wiring is in
phase to all speakers.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Travis L McWaters <travism@utdallas.edu> 
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 12:16:17 -0300
Subject: Re: Radio Problem 

> The problem I have is that the spec sheet [for the radio] describes the 
> power at 20w x 4 and when I turn it up a bit or try to increase the 
> bass response it sounds quite distorted. 

A rule of thumb is that when you get within about 70% of max power on most
car radios, you can expect distortion.  If you think you have something wired
wrong, there's not much you can do aside from double checking and tracing
the wires (without expensive equipment that is).  Do make sure you're not 
crossing the wires to the speakers, and that positve really goes to the
positive connector on the speaker.  Yes it does make a difference.

- -- Travis and "Tiny" the 69 Olds 98 Convertable (no radio at present, btw)

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 11:24:37 -0300
Subject: Re: Radio Problem 

>>        2.  Should I add a power amplifier & a sub-woffer?
>
>I wouldn't. If it's muddy now, it's not going to get any clearer with more
>power behind it. And if it's overboosting the speakers now (what are their
>power ratings, anyway?), a power amp will blow them right out of the panels.

Uh, let me try that again before everyone jumps all over me...

If you add a power amplifier and your speakers can take the extra output,
yes, it will be clearer with more power behind it. What I was thinking
when I typed my original answer was that the stereo was already overloading
the speakers, and therefore a power amp would just make it worse.

A subwoofer would add more kick (I have one in my car), but it's not going
to clear up the muddiness present in the current speakers.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: MIKE COCCAGNA <mikec@pop.kis.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 13:44:18 -0300
Subject: Re: Radio Problem

>The problem I have is that the specification
>sheet describes the power at 20w x 4 and when I turn it up a bit or
>try to increase the bass response it sounds quite distorted.  The
>rear speakers are 6x9 and the front speakers are 5.25 round.  All
>of the speakers are also Clarion.

I would first suspect the low power and the speakers.  You may be 
'underpowering' your speakers, actually damaging them worse
than 'overpowering' them.  Being they are Clarion, I sort of suspect 
this is not the case, and you may have single cone or cheap two way 
speakers,  but they do make some higher performance stuff. You didn;t 
state their model/strengths, so I will assume you do not know.

Just swapping out the speakers for some higher quality ones may 
enhance your sound (and adding a small amp too may do it even more).  
If possible, try and 'borrow' some 6x9 speakers that you know sound 
better/handle low ranges better and swap the wires of your current 
speakers.  Give them a try.  If they sound better in your car, 
replace the speakers.  I currently have Alpine 6x9 3-ways and bass 
response was respectable with my Sony's 20 watts per channel.  But, 
after adding a small amp (about 120w/ch), these speakers have a nice 
amount of output. (enough to shake my tail lamps and make a weird 
rattling noise).  If it's the speakers, you can get some decent ones 
form stereo shops (be wary of Pep Boys/Super Trak/Parts America 
speakers - know what you're getting), or through mail order - you can 
get a free catalog from Crutchfield with lots of price ranges - their 
Ph# is 1-800-CRUTCHFIELD (I think) or Stereo Advantage has good mail 
order prices/service and a little better quality stuff.  Their number 
is 1-800-446-0420.

Hope this helps.

Mike
'91 W-40 Quad442

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 15:54:07 -0300
Subject: Re: Radio Problem

SG Hartfelder wrote:

> ... the bass response it sounds quite distorted....

1) Yes, phasing is important.  The plus (or red dot) on the speakers 
should all be hooked to the plus (or red dot) on the radio.  This is not 
exactly the same as the +/- on a battery; it is used to make sure all the 
speaker move in the same direction at the same time (to avoid cancelling 
out the low frequencies, as mentioned).

2) What is the impedence of the speakers?  If they're all 8-ohm, there 
should be no problem BUT if any of them are 4-ohm putting two in parallel 
will present a 2-ohm load to the radio and may cause distortion (or 
smoke!)

3) Test each speaker on you home stereo.  If they work OK there, they're 
OK.  If they sound like crap, they're toast.

4) Disconnect the car speakers and hook up a KNOWN good (like a home 
stereo) speaker to the radio.  If it sounds OK, your speakers are, again, 
toast.  If it still sounds like crap, they're OK.

5) Another big reason for lousy sound in a car stereo is lousy power.  If 
you're hooked up with a 24-gauge wire (tiny) or the connections are not 
SOLID, the stereo gets lower voltage and can result in distortion when 
turned up.  Jumper direct to the battery (with the motor off) and see how 
it sounds.  Also make sure is has a GOOD ground (jumper battery neg).

6) If you speakers only use one wire (+) and the other side is ground, 
make sure the speaker ground is good.  If it is poor, some of your power 
is being dropped across the ground (body panels), so when you turn it up 
to compensate you get distortion.

7) If the radio is shakey but plays OK at low volumes, a power booster 
will decrease the load on the radio (usually about 100-ohms or more input 
impedence vs 4-8 for speaker) and you can get a little more life out of 
it.  But it WON'T compensate for distortion at ALL volumes, it'll just 
give you louder distortion (or turn country into heavy metal).

8) A sub-woofer will give you a similar result to 7, above.  Just don't 
drive by my house after 10pm!


Good luck,

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 11:47:50 -0300
Subject: Re: Radio Problem 

>you can 
>get a free catalog from Crutchfield with lots of price ranges - their 
>Ph# is 1-800-CRUTCHFIELD (I think)

Just for yucks, I sat down at my web browser last week and typed in a
wild guess: http://www.crutchfield.com  Yup, it worked. I ordered a
catalog and am waiting for it to show up. Unfortunately they don't
have the catalog on the web "yet"; their FAQ promises that they will
have it there Real Soon Now, as soon as they're satisfied with it...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 15:57:39 -0300
Subject: Re: Radio Problem

MIKE COCCAGNA wrote:
> 
> ... You may be 'underpowering' your speakers, actually damaging them 
> worse than 'overpowering' them...

Huh?  Whatcha mean?

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: MIKE COCCAGNA <mikec@pop.kis.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 14:05:21 -0300
Subject: Removing Clear Coat/ Refinshing Aluminum wheels

Sorry this is a repost.  The first one I sent seemed to have all 
sorts of header information for the first few screens and I would've 
deleted it before getting to any good stuff...

Here is the section on Aluminum Wheel Finishing from the GM 1991
Calais Service Manual.  I have not needed to use this section yet, so
I cannot attest to whether it works or not.  Hope it helps!

Mike (mikec@pop.kis.net)
'91 W-40 Quad442

____________

Aluminum Wheel Refinshing
A protective clear or color coating is applied to the surfact of o.e.
cast aluminum wheels. A surface degradation condition can begin to
develop if the clear coating is damaged or removed.  [tirade on
automatic car washes and their ill effects removed.]  The following
procedure details how to strip, clean, and recoat aluminum wheels that
are affected by these conditions.

Required Materials:
 Amchem Alumi Prep number 33 - stock number DX533 or equivalent -
cleaning and conditioning chemical for  aluminum.
 Amchem Alodine Number 1001 - stock number DX50T or equivalent -
coating chemical for aluminum.
 Ditzler Delclear Acrylic Urethane Clear - stock number DAU-75 or
equivalent.
 Ditzler Delthane Ultra-Urethane Additive - stock number DXR-80 or
equivalent.

Initial  Preparation
 Remove or Disconnect
 1. Wheel and Tire assembly from the vehicle.  Refer to "Wheel 
Removal" in this section.(!)
 2. Outboard wheel weights.

 Clean
 Wheel inside and out with a water base all purpose cleaner.  
Remove grease or oil with a solvent cleaner.

Accent Color Preparation
 Sand over painted areas that do not require recoloring with 
number 400 grit (wet or dry) to promote adhesion of clear coat.

Surface Damage
 CAUTION:  DO NOT USE VEHICLE POWER TO ROTATE WHEEL WHILE SANDING OR
PERSONAL INJURY MAY RESULT.
 1.  Mount tire and wheel on brake lathe and spinslowly.
 NOTICE: Do not use abrasive coarser than 80 grit or wheel may be
damaged.
 2.  Sand wheel with backing block or pad by holding abrasive flat to
surfaceof wheel and moving slowly back and forth from center to outer
edge to remove damage.  Use the following sandpaper grits in the order
listed.
  A. Sand with number 80 grit sandpaper.
  B. Sand with number 150 grit sandpaper.
  C. Sand with number 240 grit sandpaper.
 3.  Continue with "Recoating Procedure."

Clear Coat Damage on Unpainted Wheels
 CAUTION:  USE OF RUBBER GLOVES AND EYE PROTECTION IS NECESSARY TO
PREVENT PERSONAL INJURY.
 1.  Apply chemical stripper.
  -  Allow stripper to penetrate coating.
  -  Use small 1/4 inch detail brush dipped in stripper to 
apply around perimiter and spoke-like areas.
 2.  Remove stripper following manufacturers recommendations.
 CAUTION:  DO NOT USE VEHICLE POWER TO ROTATE WHEEL WHILE SANDING OR
PERSONAL INJURY MAY RESULT.
 3.  Sand wheel with 240 grit sandpaper while rotating wheel on a slow
spinning brake lathe or by mounting on vehicle and spinning by hand. 
 This will restore the machined appearance and promote adhesion.
 4.  Continue with "Recoating Procedure"

Recoating Procedure
 CAUTION:  USE OF RUBBER GLOVES AND EYE PROTECTION IS NECESSARY TO
PREVENT PERSONAL INJURY.
 1.  Clean surface of contaminants by washing with soap and water. 2. 
 Spray the wheel with Amchem number 33 or equivalent.
  -  Let the wheel soak for 1 to 3 minutes.
  -  Rinse the wheel with water and blow dry.
 3.  Soak wheel with Amchem #1001 or equivalent.
  -  Let the wheel soak for 1 to 3 minutes.
  -  Rinse the wheel and blow dry.
 4.  Mask off the tire.
 CAUTION:  TO AVOID SERIOUS PERSONAL INJURYWHEN APPLYING TWO PART
COMPONENT PAINT SYSTEM, FOLLOW THE SPECIFIC PRECAUTIONS PROVIDED BY
THE PAINT MANUFACTURER.  FAILURE TO FOLLOW THESE PRECAUTIONS MAY CAUSE
LUNG IRRITATION AND ALLERGIC RESPIRATORY REACTION.
 5.  Finish the wheel with Ditzler Delclear Acrylic Urethane and
Ditzler Ultra-Urithane Additive or equivalent using three coats. 
Refer to labels for specific directions.
  - First coat - Light mist coat, let flash
  - Second Coat - Light, let flash
  - Third Coat - Heavy double wet coat
 6.  Let the wheel dry for 24 hours - (or flash for 30 minutes, 
force dry at 60 degrees C (140 degrees F) for 30 minutes, and allow to
coor before mounting.

Install or Connect
 1.  Balance Wheel and Tire Assembly.  Refer to "Balancing Tire 
and Wheel" in this section.
  - Replace the origional wheel balance weights with nylon 
coated weights to avoid discoloration of the wheel.
 2.  Tire and wheel assembly

------------------------------

From: MIKE COCCAGNA <mikec@pop.kis.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 14:13:42 -0300
Subject: Re: Radio Problem

> MIKE COCCAGNA wrote:
> > ... You may be 'underpowering' your speakers, actually damaging
> > them worse than 'overpowering' them...
> 
> Huh?  Whatcha mean?
> 
> The 66 Toro and Mike

Well, you could have a speaker designed for a minimum of 50 watts, 
and have it hooked up to a 40 watt per channel stereo.  Ths speaker 
would still make noise, just not how it was designed.  Speakers 
usually have specs that give their min/max wattage, as well as their 
acoustic range.  The guys at the stereo shop have emphasised this to 
me every time a buy something for the car to make sure their 'double 
the manufacturer's warranty' doesn't get used.

Also, contrary to popular belief, a 20 watt per channel stereo powers 
the speakers at a constant rate, not giving power to the speaker at a 
simular rate as the volume knob.  That's why an amplifier will 
enhance bass at very low volumes as well as providing clarity to the 
upper volume set too.

Mike
'91 W-40 Quad442

------------------------------

From: "Dink" <heinle@jake.udayton.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 14:25:52 -0300
Subject: Re: sparking plugs

> >> >It had splitfires before, hey, maybe that's why the 112k mile old Toro
> >> other than split fires...there are plugs called Rings of fire, i
> >
> >Ah I think was a joke, like the fuel line magnet deal :)
> 
> huh? fuel line magnet...ive heard that there is something you can do to
> ionize the fuel and make it burn better, is that it?
Yep this is it, check out J.C. Witney for these lovely products, I 
think there like $20 or something.
 
> oh, and by the way, the rings of fire cost about $12 a peice
I doubt they make any difference.

Dink

!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~
Dink           Dayton, Ohio
80 Olds Delta 88 Royale  MSD, K&N, Dynomax, etc..
http://homepages.udayton.edu/students/heinle/
- --

------------------------------

From: lawrencr@kostabi.gdls.com (Robert Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 13:29:32 -0300
Subject: Re: Radio Problem

>         When I purchased my 1938 Oldsmobile in February this year it already
> had an AM/FM/CASS deck installed.  It's a Clarion unit, model 3580RC and was
> installed about 1.5 years ago.  The problem I have is that the specification
> sheet describes the power at 20w x 4 and when I turn it up a bit or try to
> increase the bass response it sounds quite distorted.  The rear speakers are
> 6x9 and the front speakers are 5.25 round.  All of the speakers are also
> Clarion.
> 
>         What I'm wondering is:
> 
>         1.  Is something not hooked up properly?  How could I diagnose this?
> 
>         2.  Should I add a power amplifier & a sub-woffer?
> 
> Any help will be appreciated.
> 
> Stanh@compusmart.ab.ca
> 1938 - Oldsmobile Street Rod

My two cents...

20w x 4 should mean it has four channels (Right Front, LF, RR, LR), and
puts out 20w on each (80w total).  Back in the old days, car companies 
realized that people really like to listen to music in their cars, a base 
stereo was 5w x 2, for a total of ten watts.

That should mean that your amp has better that average power, and that
it is not your problem, unless you really crank it.

Amp makers play a game.  They can say 50w @ .5% THD (total harmonic
distortion) or 100w @ 20% THD.  (Numbers are just examples.  And
please correct me if I'm talking trash.)  That's why there are
so many cheap "high output" radios for sale.

Speakers out of phase have a canceling effect, but will not cause
distortion.  Unless, you turn the volume to max to try to compensate for
it.

I suppose you have tried to make sure it's not bad speakers by using
the balance and fader to isolate where the distortion is coming from?

Someone in another response said that "underpowering" a speaker can
damage it.  You can't damage a speaker by putting too little power
through it.  (At least I hope not, the speakers in my car are getting zero
power right now.  Who knows what damage might be caused!)  Speakers like clean 
signals.  What happens is that when you max out a 5w amp, your signal has a 
lot more distortion, than when you output 5w with a 10w amp (all other
things being equal).  So, you can damage your speakers, if your amp is
underpowered.

With all that said, I would suspect one or more bad speakers.  
Especially, if the previous owner tended to play the stereo for
extended periods of time at loud volume.

Or, the speaker cones have been exposed to excessive sun or weather.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Lawrence   | 1970 Oldsmobile 98 Convertible               .^.
lawrencr@gdls.com |  _________,~--,___________\____________     /9|8\
(810) 825-8007    |  |                |~    |        ___   |    \}|{/
Sterling Hts., MI |  =------(-o-)-------------------( o )--=      v

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 16:48:29 -0300
Subject: Re: Radio Problem

MIKE COCCAGNA wrote:
> 
> Speakers usually have specs that give their min/max wattage, as well 
> as their acoustic range.

Not true.  CAR speakers may come with a specified minimum power rating  
but speakers in general almost NEVER mention a minimum power requirement 
(in the SPEAKER'S manufacturer's specifications).  Keep in mind that many 
of the car speakers you buy are NOT manufacturered by the name on the box 
but purchased from another manufacturer who specializes in speakers.  So 
they often add their own little marketing ploys (for the obvoius reason 
that they may get to sell you a power amp).

What the speaker manufacturers DO specify is efficency measured in 
decibels per watt measured at 1 meter, free air resonance, compliance, 
and a few other things.  You are correct; though, they do specify a 
MAXIMUM power rating (that point at which the speaker may become 
toasted).

> The guys at the stereo shop have emphasised this to me every time a 
> buy something for the car to make sure their 'double the manufacturer's
> warranty' doesn't get used.

Of course they do.
 
> Also, contrary to popular belief, a 20 watt per channel stereo powers
> the speakers at a constant rate, ...

Nope.

> ... not giving power to the speaker at a simular rate as the volume 
> knob.  That's why an amplifier will enhance bass at very low volumes 
> as well as providing clarity to the upper volume set too.

You're confusing a function often called "Loudness" on many stereos.  The 
human ear does not have a linear frequence response at different volume 
levels.  At lower volume levels, the ears tends to loose low and high end 
response.  At higher levels, the response of the ear is much flatter.  
Ergo, the "loudness" function.  At low levels, many amplifiers will boost 
the low and high end to compensate for the ears non-linearity.  Most 
better stero systems provide a switch (called, guess what? Loudness.) to 
let you turn this function on or off.  But, by and large, both the power 
from the amp and volume from the speaker are proportional to the knob.

You're up!

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: lawrencr@kostabi.gdls.com (Robert Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 13:53:59 -0300
Subject: Re: Radio Problem

What I meant to say....


20w x 4 should mean it has four channels (Right Front, LF, RR, LR), and
puts out 20w on each (80w total).  Back in the old days, car companies 
                                                      ^^^^^
						      before
	
realized that people really like to listen to music in their cars, a base 
stereo was 5w x 2, for a total of ten watts.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Lawrence   | 1970 Oldsmobile 98 Convertible               .^.
lawrencr@gdls.com |  _________,~--,___________\____________     /9|8\
(810) 825-8007    |  |                |~    |        ___   |    \}|{/
Sterling Hts., MI |  =------(-o-)-------------------( o )--=      v

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 17:02:21 -0300
Subject: Re: Radio Problem

Robert Lawrence wrote:
> 
> That should mean that your amp has better that average power, and that
> it is not your problem, unless you really crank it.

True.  Assuming it's workin' OK.

> Amp makers play a game.  They can say 50w @ .5% THD (total harmonic
> distortion) or 100w @ 20% THD.  ... And please correct me if I'm 
> talking trash.)

No, you're right.  Watch the THD.  Should never be greater than .5%.  The 
lower the better.  If it's not specified, you're lookin at trash.
 
> Speakers out of phase have a canceling effect, but will not cause
> distortion.  Unless, you turn the volume to max to try to compensate 
> for it.

Exactly.

> You can't damage a speaker by putting too little power through it.

Also true.

> ... when you max out a 5w amp, your signal has a lot more distortion
> ... So, you can damage your speakers...

Yup.  However, the distortion of the signal is called "clipping"; that 
is, the tops and bottoms of the signal are clipped off, squaring the 
wave.  This results in higher frequency harmonics being generated.  Since 
the higher frequencies are routed to the midranges or tweeters, the 
damage is usually confined to one or both of them.  It is unusual for a 
woofer or a full range speaker to be damaged by distortion alone.

> Or, the speaker cones have been exposed to excessive sun or weather.

Yup.  The compliance ring (the rubber/foam thing) hardens and the speaker 
don't speak too good.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: bryce_smith@442.com (Bryceman)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 14:08:47 -0300
Subject: At Long Last!!! 

I got 'em! The T-Shirts are here. I will be shipping them tomorrow. They
look pretty good, the colors are not as vibrant as they are on your
computer screen... 4-color process separations are a real challenge to
print on a black shirt. Anyway they still look pretty darn good, so I
ordered 20 more. XL & XXL only this time.
XLs dont run as large as I thought they would. I nornally wear a 46 or 48
regular suit coat and the XL T-Shirt is a perfect fit on me.

For those of you just ordering, the wait won't be as long this time, it
will be 10 working days before I get the second batch of 20

MANY thanks again to everyone who ordered shirts and waited forever for
them. I hope your like the shirts enough to have made the wait worthwhile.



 EXCESSIVE IRON rules the road!
'65 442
'66 Dynamic 88 B07 Apprehender
 bryceman@442.com
 www.442.com

------------------------------

From: Chris Murray <Treefrog@hookup.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 10:50:53 -0300
Subject: Re: NTMail List Server

unsubscribe oldsmobile

------------------------------

From: lawrencr@kostabi.gdls.com (Robert Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 15:01:37 -0300
Subject: Re: Radio Problem

> MIKE COCCAGNA wrote:
> > 
> > Speakers usually have specs that give their min/max wattage, as well 
> > as their acoustic range.
> 
> Not true.  CAR speakers may come with a specified minimum power rating  
> but speakers in general almost NEVER mention a minimum power requirement 
> (in the SPEAKER'S manufacturer's specifications).  Keep in mind that many 
> of the car speakers you buy are NOT manufacturered by the name on the box 
> but purchased from another manufacturer who specializes in speakers.  So 
> they often add their own little marketing ploys (for the obvoius reason 
> that they may get to sell you a power amp).
> 
> What the speaker manufacturers DO specify is efficency measured in 
> decibels per watt measured at 1 meter, free air resonance, compliance, 
> and a few other things.  You are correct; though, they do specify a 
> MAXIMUM power rating (that point at which the speaker may become 
> toasted).

A good stereo consultant should match your amp to your speakers.
Inefficient speakers need more powerful amps, in order to avoid
an "underpowered amp" situation.

But, I would doubt this is an issue with a Clarion amp and Clarion
speakers.  This is a matched system (same manufactorer) and probably
a pretty generic setup, as far as impedance, and effiency are concerned.

> let you turn this function on or off.  But, by and large, both the power 
> from the amp and volume from the speaker are proportional to the knob.

And remember always get the amps with dials that go up to 11, because they 
are louder than those than only go up to 10. :)

This doesn't contradict anything above, but it's a fun fact...

A 100 watt amp is only going to be twice as loud as a 10 watt amp (all
other things being equal).  Power-to-loudness is logrithmic, not
linear.  

> The 66 Toro and Mike

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 17:56:12 -0300
Subject: Re: NTMail List Server

HELP oldsmobile

- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: SG Hartfelder <stanh@bernie.compusmart.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 16:10:07 -0300
Subject: Olds Only Car Show 

Up here in Alberta there's a town called 'OLDS'.  It's near another small
town called Calgary.  Actually Calgary has a population of about 650,000 but
since I live in Edmonton (the Capital City), I can't have anything nice to
say about our arch-rival.  If you've been following the Stanley Cup (hockey)
playoffs you'll know that they went down 4 straight to Chicago.  Hee Hee!

Anyway, in Olds each year they have car show that is limited to guess what
- --- Oldsmobiles.  Apparently several hundred cars attend each year.  The
show is presented by the Oldsmobile Club of America, Northern Lights Chapter
and it's called Rocket Round-up '96.

This year the show is scheduled for July 20 from noon - 4:00pm.  Awards and
the like will be presented at the dinner later that night.

If you want further information please e-mail me and get the details to you.

stanh@compusmart.ab.ca
1938 Oldsmobile - Street Rod

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 14:16:48 -0300
Subject: Re: Radio Problem 

>And remember always get the amps with dials that go up to 11, because they 
>are louder than those than only go up to 10. :)

D'oh!!! I wanted that line! Oh, well, be sure to polish the dial, too,
for best reception...

>A 100 watt amp is only going to be twice as loud as a 10 watt amp (all
>other things being equal).  Power-to-loudness is logrithmic, not
>linear.  

Right, power increases logarithmically, but if the volume control's pot
is also logarithmic, wouldn't the volume be, say, half as loud when the
knob was halfway up the scale? (e.g. At "5" or "5 1/2", as appropriate :-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 18:28:54 -0300
Subject: Re: Radio Problem

Robert Lawrence wrote:
>
> A good stereo consultant...Is that a salesman (oops) person?

> And remember always get the amps with dials that go up to 11...Absolutely!

> Power-to-loudness is logrithmic, not linear.Yup.


The 66 Toro and Mike

- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Schroedinger's Clint" <clint@digex.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 15:31:12 -0300
Subject: AUGH!!!

So I was out shopping around today to see who coudl do what for my exhaust
work.   Midas absolutely refused to touch my car because they don't work
on 'altered' cars.   Despite the fact that I have a 5.0l V8 of
unmentionable orgin (C***y), they said that they could only put up a new
set of pipes for a 3.8l V6.. "because that's what the car came with."

The cool mech guy pulled me aside and suggested I goto "STURDY" Muffler
shop a few doors down in the industrial park.

They priced me at $400 for a new cat, tailpipes, and split exhaust (like
the 442/MonteSS/GN).  At first I was shocked, but then once you added it
all up ($85 for the cat, $45 for the tailpipes each, $100 for the
intermediate pipes, the rest for labor, assorted hangers and clamps,
etc...) It's seems fairly reasonable.  

So tomorrow I get the 3.23 posi put on (in), and then Saturday I get a
proper exhaust.  Meebee the mileage will go up.  Meebee not, but at least
the car won't be a rolling booklet of traffic violations anymore.  8^)

Heh... who needs to eat anyway???  ;^)

Clint

                          _________
Rocket Boy!             _|_ _\\____|_     '81 Cutlass Supreme
clint@darklair.com       |___//____|      (G-body with F-pieces)
- ---------------------------------------------
 Clint Thompson           DIGEX Full Time IP       
 clint@digex.net              (301) 847-5156                          
 (301) 847-6225               Mon-Fri: 9a-5p  
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: MIKE COCCAGNA <mikec@pop.kis.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 16:51:23 -0300
Subject: Re: Radio Problem

I know we're going off on a tangent, so I hope this thread will 
conclude soon... (not like we haven't spent 2 weeks about wiper 
motors or something like that)  

Mike Coccagna responds:

> > Speakers usually have specs that give their min/max wattage, as
> > well as their acoustic range.
> 
MF> Not true.  CAR speakers may come with a specified minimum power
MF> rating  but speakers in general almost NEVER mention a minimum power
MF> requirement (in the SPEAKER'S manufacturer's specifications).  Keep
[snip]

Quoting Bose on their Acoustimass Speakers (Bose still makes speakers 
- -  Right?), 

     Compatibility:
     Compatible with amplifiers or recievers rated from 10 to 200 watts per
     channel/rated 4-8 ohms. 

And quoting one of the web's Stereo FAQ's:

Music has peaks, or really loud passages. Let's say you are listening
to White Zombie - more human than human. Ok you're at the beginning of
the song and it's pretty quiet even though your volume knob is pretty
high. At this point your amp is probably putting out about 10-20
watts. Then all of a sudden, the song gets loud! Now your amp is
putting out 100 watts or more! But what is your amp is only 50 watts?
- - Well now your speakers are "clipping" or distorting. You are
demanding lots of power, but your amp can only put out so much. 

What does this all mean? - NOT HAVING ENOUGH POWER WRECKS SPEAKERS!!! 

This brings us to how speakers and amps are rated. There are two
specifications to be aware of- RMS power and PEAK power. RMS power is
the amount of power your amp puts out (or your speakers handle) all
the time. PEAK power is the power your amp puts out (or your speakers
handle) for short bursts- less then a second. You don't even need to
worry about PEAK power because it is an unreliable spec. The problem
is that most advertisors quote their product's peak power! 

For example, look at a pair of Alpine 6x9s (or another brand). Most
ads will say "120 watts peak" or maybe even just "120 watts". Now the
RMS power (the power they handle all the time) would be about 60
watts!! These ads are misleading! 

So make sure you know the RMS power of your speakers or amp before you
buy them! 

 
> > Also, contrary to popular belief, a 20 watt per channel stereo
> > powers the speakers at a constant rate, ...
[snip]

I stand corrected.

> You're up!
> 
> The 66 Toro and Mike

Next!

Mike
'91 W-40 Quad442 

------------------------------

From: lawrencr@kostabi.gdls.com (Robert Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 15:56:46 -0300
Subject: Re: Radio Problem

> Right, power increases logarithmically, but if the volume control's pot
> is also logarithmic, wouldn't the volume be, say, half as loud when the
> knob was halfway up the scale? (e.g. At "5" or "5 1/2", as appropriate :-)
> 
> Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431

Yes.  And, that certainly seems to be the way they work.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Lawrence   | 1970 Oldsmobile 98 Convertible               .^.
lawrencr@gdls.com |  _________,~--,___________\____________     /9|8\
(810) 825-8007    |  |                |~    |        ___   |    \}|{/
Sterling Hts., MI |  =------(-o-)-------------------( o )--=      v

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 18:59:43 -0300
Subject: Re: AUGH!!!

Schroedinger's Clint wrote:
> 
> Midas absolutely refused to touch my car because they don't work
> on 'altered' cars.

They used to work for that Canadian DMV.         ;)
 
The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 19:03:41 -0300
Subject: Re: Radio Problem

Andrew C. Green wrote:
> 
> ... but if the volume control's pot is also logarithmic, wouldn't the 
> volume be, say, half as loud when the knob was halfway up the scale? 

Were you kidding or did you want an answer?

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 19:24:11 -0300
Subject: Re: Radio Problem

MIKE COCCAGNA wrote:
> 
> ... Bose on their Acoustimass Speakers

I agree; however, Bose is one of those exceptions (I never said "ALL").  
And Bose is also talking about a speaker SYSTEM (in a acoustic cabinet) 
not a free-air speaker as you would find in a car.  Also, Bose's speakers 
are notiously inefficient as Dr. Bose really trades off efficency for 
frequency response.  How do you think they get that wonderful sound out 
of those tiny speakers?  Remember the 901's with their active equalizer? 
He compensated for the rather lousy response of those 4 1/5" speakers at 
the expense of efficiency.  In later designs he has tried to use unusual 
cabinet designs rahter than electronics (with great success but who 
really wants a $500 table radio?).  Bose's minimum power recommendation 
is so people don't hook his speakers up to a walkman and wonder why it 
won't get loud.  They'll still work.

> ... Well now your speakers are "clipping" or distorting.

Nope, the amp is clipping not the speakers.  This is a result of the 
output transistors being driven in to saturation and cutoff.  You CAN 
have a similar result in a speaker by giving it way TOO MUCH power to 
where it reached the limits of its excursion (forward/back travel).
Then it smokes.

> What does this all mean? - NOT HAVING ENOUGH POWER WRECKS SPEAKERS!!!

Based on you arguments, I disagree.

> ... RMS power and PEAK power.  ...These ads are misleading!

Yup. If it don't say RMS, don't believe it.


Now, about that WD-40...

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Schroedinger's Clint" <clint@digex.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 16:27:28 -0300
Subject: Wacky idea.....

Okay...

I want a shift light... actually I want two.  One in Red and one in
Yellow.   Red for "You're going to blow up your engine you Dummy!" and
Yellow for optimal shift point for racing so I don't have to look at the
dash...

I always thought that the shift lights that were dash mounted looked dorky
for a street car, plus the competition would know that something was up...

Sooooooo   It occurs to me that having the housing for a hood tach (like
from a 70 GS/GTO/442?) would be a cool place to put them...

What do you all think???

Clint

                          _________
Rocket Boy!             _|_ _\\____|_     '81 Cutlass Supreme
clint@darklair.com       |___//____|      (G-body with F-pieces)
- ---------------------------------------------
 Clint Thompson           DIGEX Full Time IP       
 clint@digex.net              (301) 847-5156                          
 (301) 847-6225               Mon-Fri: 9a-5p  
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: "Schroedinger's Clint" <clint@digex.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 16:29:10 -0300
Subject: DMR number??

Does anyone have a phone # for Dick Miller racing???  I want a W-30 hood
for my Cutlass!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Clint

- ---------------------------------------------
 Clint Thompson           DIGEX Full Time IP       
 clint@digex.net              (301) 847-5156                          
 (301) 847-6225               Mon-Fri: 9a-5p  
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: Doug McClanahan <mcclan@wsdot.wa.gov>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 16:35:47 -0300
Subject: Coolant leak solved!  (He heeehehe)

>>>>>>...Pulled #2 plug, and a couple others to compare (don't
know if water in a cylinder would show on plugs, anyway...), and they all
looked the same.  No discoloration, no black junk, just nice, clean 
plugs.
There is a wierd, kind of gurgling/bubbling noise, most audible around 
the
radiator cap.  Could the water all be leaking out the cap?  What about if
the thermostat is bad......



Whatcha got there son, is a pack of them thirsty seven toed, coolant 
sucking, southern automotive radiator dwelling cockroaches - better known 
as Oldsmobilious Prestonious.  To get rid of them, all ya' gotta do is 
add another 50 to 100 hp to yer engine.  Ya' see they thrive on weak 
little engines!  You should actually feel good about having acquired this 
pesky little infestation as you now have the excuse you have been looking 
for to finally approach your wife and beg for that $2000 ya need to grab 
some extra horse power.

Seriously, it is very possible to "burn" many gallons of water through a 
small leak in an intake gasket.  Just imaging how many times that #2 
piston cycles in your average daily drive! 

Assume you travel 15 miles each way every day at an average of 60 mph 
with the engine turning 2500 rpm on average.  1/4 of the piston strokes 
could "suck" coolant into the combustion chamber (intake stroke) so 1/4 
of 2500 rpm = 625.  If you multiply 625 intake strokes per minute times 
your 30 minutes you get 18,750.  If you loose a whole gallon of coolant 
per day and you are only using water in one cylinder, you are "burning" 
1/18,750th of a gallon of water per cycle.  This would probably not show 
up a white cloud coming out of your exhaust pipe(s).

I don't claim that my 2nd grade math is totally accurate but I'm just 
trying to say that you may not "see" just where the water is going, you 
may need some expensive mechanic with his expensive tools to help you 
find out where your water is going.

I hope this helps (or at least gives you a laugh).

Doug
Mcclan@wsdot.wa.gov

------------------------------

From: bryce_smith@442.com (Bryceman)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 16:57:13 -0300
Subject: Re: Coolant leak solved!  (He heeehehe) 

>Seriously, it is very possible to "burn" many gallons of water through a
>small leak in an intake gasket.  Just imaging how many times that #2
>piston cycles in your average daily drive!

Good way to remove carbon from the cylinders, aye?


 EXCESSIVE IRON rules the road!
'65 442
'66 Dynamic 88 B07 Apprehender
 bryceman@442.com
 www.442.com

------------------------------

From: "Dink" <heinle@jake.udayton.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 18:14:27 -0300
Subject: Re: Wacky idea.....

> Sooooooo   It occurs to me that having the housing for a hood tach (like
> from a 70 GS/GTO/442?) would be a cool place to put them...
> What do you all think???

Sounds like sweet idea.  Shift lites are like $60 from auto meter.  I 
think you can can just hook them up to your msd tach out if you have 
one.  You could also get a MSD dual rev limiter, for another $50 that 
would let you hook up 2 shift lite's to the msd.

Dink

!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~
Dink           Dayton, Ohio
80 Olds Delta 88 Royale  MSD, K&N, Dynomax, etc..
http://homepages.udayton.edu/students/heinle/
- --

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 17:23:08 -0300
Subject: Re: sparking plugs

At 02:25 PM 4/25/96 -0300, you wrote:

>> oh, and by the way, the rings of fire cost about $12 a peice
>I doubt they make any difference.
>

At least not $12 a piece worth of difference ($96!!)

>Dink
>
>!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~

- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 17:36:16 -0300
Subject: Re: Coolant leak solved!  (He heeehehe)

At 04:57 PM 4/25/96 -0300, you wrote:

>Seriously, it is very possible to "burn" many gallons of water through a
>small leak in an intake gasket.  Just imaging how many times that #2
>piston cycles in your average daily drive!

>Good way to remove carbon from the cylinders, aye?


Yeah, I'm developing a new water injection system for my Olds...
- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 16:43:40 -0300
Subject: Re: sparking plugs 

>other than split fires...there are plugs called Rings of fire, i
>think...well they have a circular electrode rather than the split, so you
>get more spark...

Oh, wait a minute, would those be "Fire Injectors(tm)"??? J.C. Whitney
used to sell those things for years, right next to the miracle engine
tuneup pills and the fuel line magnets. Just skimmed a recent catalog
and couldn't find them in there, although I did find SplitFires listed.

>From what I remember of the Highly Scientific drawing of the things in
action, they were so Scientific that your car would now creep forward
when in gear at idle, such was the power of these engineering breakthroughs
(or "breakthrus", perhaps). Think they had one large round center electrode
and several side ones around it, target-style. Never met anyone who'd ever
tried the things, nor did I ever see one outside the catalog.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 17:51:18 -0300
Subject: Coolant, stalling

OK, coolant problem all better now...replaced the radiator cap, and things
seem to have settled down.  On to another problem, just developed today.  I
was driving to work this morning, doing about 70 on I-95, and the engine
just quit running.  I put it in neutral, and the engine coughed and
sputtered for a few seconds, then died.  I tried to start it, and it fired
right back up.  I drove for another half mile or so, and it did it again.
Did it about four or five times this morning.  Coming home this afternoon
was even worse; must have happened eight times, but it always starts right
back up.  It doesn't seem to happen in Park with the engine idling (at least
not yet...), engine doesn't suck as much gas at idle as it does at 70 mph.
Only happens when I'm driving.  It happens whether I'm accelerating (all 4
barrels wide open!!) or cruising down the highway at 70 mph.  I'm thinking
it could be bad gas (water in the tank?); I was almost on "E" last night,
and put about 5 gallons in.  Now she doesn't want to run.  I'm going to
change the fuel filter today, and get one of those bottles of stuff you put
in your tank to help get water out.  Maybe that will help.  Don't see any
fuel leaks; I've just replaced all the rubber fuel lines, and the fuel pump
is a few years old, but it's not leaking.  Any thoughts or suggestions are
welcome... 

Thanks _AGAIN_ !
- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 18:07:38 -0300
Subject: Re: Coolant, stalling

>back up.  It doesn't seem to happen in Park with the engine idling (at least
>not yet...), engine doesn't suck as much gas at idle as it does at 70 mph.
>Only happens when I'm driving.  

Uhhh, yes it does...I just went outside and ran the engine for a few
minutes.  Stalled out twice, but started right back up.

- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 17:09:10 -0300
Subject: Re: Coolant, stalling 

>I'm thinking
>it could be bad gas (water in the tank?); I was almost on "E" last night,
>and put about 5 gallons in.  Now she doesn't want to run.

At first I was thinking, "fouling spark plugs," since you say it
first came about during high-speed driving, but your mention of
almost running out of gas, plus $5 worth of suspect gas, makes
me think perhaps the float got very low in the tank and the pickup
tube snorked up a bunch of sediment off the bottom. Try a new filter...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Shawn M. Twomey" <stwom@ctp.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 18:15:34 -0300
Subject: Polish, my face, etc. 

When I had my '84 painted a couple years back, I went into FinishMasters in
Lansing for some wet-sanding stuff and to see if they could recommend a good
polish.  I was looking for the Maguiars "Deep Crystal" stuff they sell at
Meijers (like Wal-Mart) actually because my dad uses it on all his cars.
Those guys didn't seem to know what I was talking about, but they had some
Maguiars stuff like "#9 polish & swirl remover" or something like that,
fairly expensive.  The guy made some comment like this was the real
top-of-the-line stuff and they only sell the "commercial" brand at retail
places where the folk don't know any better.  So I shelled out, got the car
all sanded & used a lot of the polish, but was very disappointed, until I
went back to Meijers, bought the commercial crap, and what do you know,
worked about ten times better.  Anyway, they now sell it as a three stage
thingy, the first being a paint cleaner, next the aforementioned polish
(works best on dark cars), then wax.  I'm going to put the '85 thru all
three stages fairly soon and I'll let everyone know how it turns out.

>Some were just plain-jane Hondas with thoes goofy reverse rims 
>on 50 series Goodriches, and that chrome tape over the fender wells.  
>	Sure buddy, that belongs in a car show.

*maniacal voice*  KILL THEM!! KILL THEM NOW!!  *regains composure*
Actually, many folk may say that about me after I outfit my '85 442 with one
of them W30-style hoods Dick Miller now sells.  How much were they, Chris?
Seriously, I'm going to try to get a look, hopefully get some pictures to
post on the page because I'm having difficulty picturing what it would look
like.  That would be ultra-cool if they sold a whole kit to hook up the ram
air under the hood to an '80s 307 air cleaner.

>I've been wondering what some of the folks here look 
>like based on their writing styles,

There's a mug shot of me at my web page:   http://www.cps.msu.edu/~twomeysh

No car stuff on it right now, but as soon as I get my cars all cleaned up
I'll be snapping photos & scanning them in.  Be sure to check out the text
files page if you visit, I collected a bunch of the funny email lists people
always send around to friends ("50 zany ways to order a pizza" etc. etc.)
and put them up there.

>The car was ordered with every option available that year (T-tops, 
>power everything, gray cloth interior, etc...)

Hey, did you get the fiber-optic thingys on the tops of the quarter panels?
Anyone ever see those?  It was an option in '83 but not '84.

__________________________________________________________________________
Shawn M. Twomey     |  "No!  Try NOT!  Do, or do not.  There is no try."
stwom@ctp.com       |  -Yoda
__________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 19:17:56 -0300
Subject: Shift Lights (was: Wacky idea.....) 

          
Sooooooo   It occurs to me that having the housing for a hood tach (like 
from a 70 GS/GTO/442?) would be a cool place to put them...
                 ^^^^             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
          
          1)  442 hood tach!?!?!?   NAAAAA.  See Chris Witt's 442 QUiz
          
          2)  An even cooler and much less conspicuous place to put 
          them is in existing idiot light holes in the factory dash 
          guages.  The "Fasten Seat Belt" light, for example.  If you 
          have one of those units with the shift indicator covered up, 
          you could mount the light behind a piece of the 
          factory-style colored plastic lens used for the idiot lights 
          and no one would ever know...not the competition, not the 
          picky show judges, and especially not the originality police 
          at the Canadian DMV!
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30 

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 19:26:11 -0300
Subject: Re: Coolant, stalling 

          ....and the engine coughed and sputtered for a few seconds, 
          then died.....
          
          This happened to a friend's 70 Gran Sport.  He went nuts 
          until he figured it out.  Turns out there was loose rust and 
          assorted crud in his fuel tank.  During the course of 
          driving (especially at high speed or at WOT, when the fuel 
          flow was high) this crud would get sucked up against the 
          screen on the fuel tank pickup, cloging it.  Car would 
          sputter to a halt, at which point the fuel flow would stop, 
          the crud would settle to the bottom of the tank, and the car 
          would start right back up again, repeating the process!
          
          The frustrating thing, of course, is that the chunks large 
          enough to plug the inlet screen won't pass through it and 
          thus won't show up in the fuel filter when you dissect it 
          (although chances are you will see a lot of junk in there 
          anyway).  Drop the tank and flush it out to solve your 
          problem.
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: jblair@nhr.com (John T. Blair)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 18:45:37 -0300
Subject: Re: At Long Last!!! 

>I got 'em! The T-Shirts are here. I will be shipping them tomorrow. They
>look pretty good, the colors are not as vibrant as they are on your
>computer screen... 4-color process separations are a real challenge to

How do I go about getting 2 of them in size large?

Jim Chermack

C/O

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ          email:  jblair@nhr.com
Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (804) 495-8229

48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget  65 Morgan 4/4 Series V
     75 Bricklin SV1   77 Spitfire

------------------------------

From: jblair@nhr.com (John T. Blair)
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 18:45:51 -0300
Subject: Re: Internet List 

>Dave you worte,
>Yeah, I found this group searching for "OLDSMOBILE".  Search came up with
>Bryceman's Olds Page, and I found out about it there.  BTW, what is "JOURNEY
>WITH OLDS"?
>Journey with OLDS is the monthly publification that is put out by the OLDS Club of America. Excellent club that has I believe around 5000 members. It is the only club other than the National Co***tte Restoration Society that offers insurrance for it's members while at a show or having a shop day at a sponsering dealer. You should check them out.

Jim Chermack
C/O 
>--
>Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
>dpauliso@metrolink.net
>
>
>
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ          email:  jblair@nhr.com
Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (804) 495-8229

48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget  65 Morgan 4/4 Series V
     75 Bricklin SV1   77 Spitfire

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 17:46:38 -0300
Subject: Re: Polish, my face, etc. 

>>I've been wondering what some of the folks here look 
>>like based on their writing styles,

Oh, yeah, me too, all the time.

>There's a mug shot of me at my web page:   http://www.cps.msu.edu/~twomeysh

Well, I'll give you a sneak preview: Bryceman now has color photos of
me, him and Keith Wood, taken the night Keith bought my '82 Cutlass.
He's promised to scan them in for the web pages Real Soon Now, and I'll
get my '82 Cutlass entry updated with those shots and some sort of pointer
to the new owner, Keith. Hellooo, Bryce!

>Hey, did you get the fiber-optic thingys on the tops of the quarter panels?
>Anyone ever see those?  It was an option in '83 but not '84.

They're pretty common in general; depends on what GM car you look at. They
all work pretty much the same and you should be able to retrofit them once
you drill a hole in the top of the fender, although I have not done this
myself. You would snake the fibre-optic leads down to the lamps, where 
you'll find a little round hole in the plug for the headlamp which leads 
to the back of the sealed beam. I forget what kind of setup is used on the 
turn signals but it snakes in the side somehow. I think if you pull them 
off a junker, you may need part of the turn signal housings to go with them.

While you're stripping parts, cut off and take with you the headlamp plugs,
in case you get home and find that yours don't have the little round hole
for the fibre-optic lead to go in. If you do need to swap the plastic plug
housings, the headlamp contacts release by pushing a _small_ screwdriver
into the recessed notch in the front of the plug, so it goes in _behind_
the connector. Find the locking tab on the back of the connector and press
it down; this will release it and the connector will slide out the back of
the plug.

While the connector is out, clean it up, tweak it back in shape so it will
grip the headlamp connectors tightly, and wipe a coating of Vaseline on it
before clipping it back in.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Dink" <heinle@jake.udayton.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 19:55:50 -0300
Subject: Re: Polish, my face, etc.

> >I've been wondering what some of the folks here look 
> >like based on their writing styles,
> 
> There's a mug shot of me at my web page:   http://www.cps.msu.edu/~twomeysh

Ditto, There's a pic of me on my main page, it's in my sig.  I look a 
little different now, trying to grow a thing called a gote.

For another pic try
http://homepages.udayton.edu/students/heinle/carpic/formula2.jpg
Notice gut  :(

Dink

!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~
Dink           Dayton, Ohio
80 Olds Delta 88 Royale  MSD, K&N, Dynomax, etc..
http://homepages.udayton.edu/students/heinle/
- --

------------------------------

From: "Dink" <heinle@jake.udayton.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 19:59:32 -0300
Subject: Re: Shift Lights (was: Wacky idea.....)

>           2)  An even cooler and much less conspicuous place to put 
>           them is in existing idiot light holes in the factory dash 
>           guages.  The "Fasten Seat Belt" light, for example.  If you 

This would be cool for a nitrous system. Switch one activates system 
and lights up "Fasten seat belts", then when you use the nitrous 
maybe "Hold on" light or something :)

Dink

!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~
Dink           Dayton, Ohio
80 Olds Delta 88 Royale  MSD, K&N, Dynomax, etc..
http://homepages.udayton.edu/students/heinle/
- --

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 12:12:20 -0300
Subject: Re: Shift Lights (was: Wacky idea.....) 

     If you don't have the full gauges and have idiot lights, there are 
     plenty of lights over there that are free, like WAIT and WATER IN FUEL 
     lights for the diesel.  Just replace the plastic with some of a solid 
     color and you're in business!
     
     I suppose you could also use halogen lights there, I've seen the 194 
     size halogens in the parts stores.
     
     Another idea is to get a high-brightness LED and holder from radio 
     shack.  They're small and can be mounted anywhere.  They're actually 
     really bright.  I have one of the small 3/16" high-brightness red 
     LED's on my car alarm and man is it ever bright!
     
     Hmm...  I suppose the canadian DMV would laugh in your face if you 
     showed them the disc-brake upgrade and (gasp!) radial tires you're 
     using too!  Get them halogen headlights outta there, only dim T3's 
     allowed!
     
     Or how about getting some of those fender-mount fiber optic deals that 
     let you know your lights are working, and putting a really bright 
     light in there?

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Shift Lights (was: Wacky idea.....)
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    4/25/96 2:41 PM


     
Sooooooo   It occurs to me that having the housing for a hood tach (like 
from a 70 GS/GTO/442?) would be a cool place to put them...
                 ^^^^             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
          2)  An even cooler and much less conspicuous place to put 
          them is in existing idiot light holes in the factory dash 
          
          and especially not the originality police at the Canadian 
          DMV!
     

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 19:37:47 -0300
Subject: Re:waxes

Did you know Zymol is a Turtle Wax Product?  If i'm not mistaken.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
 revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
 information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
 Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
 been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 21:49:28 -0300
Subject: stalling

Well, I changed the fuel filter, got one of those gas additives to get rid
of water, and filled the tank.  Right after I pulled out of the gas station,
the car stalled, but then I drove it for about 15 minutes without incident.
Got home, but had to go back out a few minutes later.  Car stalled again one
time, but no more on that trip.  We'll see how it does in the morning on the
way to work.  Seems to be better, though...

That's all for now!
- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 22:16:40 -0300
Subject: Re: sparking plugs 

In a message dated 96-04-24 23:09:54 EDT, you write:

>425, 10.5:1 actual compression, rowdy cam, TH400 hi-stall, 3.73 gears, HEI
>with mechanical advance only.
>
>What spark plug?
>
>It had splitfires before, hey, maybe that's why the 112k mile old Toro
engine
>did the 1/4 in a second less than the 455... :)
>
>I'm thinking a plug for say a '77 403 Toro, for heat range, maybe a step
>hotter, and shave back the electrode in true hot-rodder fashion, then
'index'
>them as best swapping holes provides.

With a motor like that, running race gas (I assume?), something like that
Toro plug wouldn't be a bad place to start as a baseline, though I doubt it'd
be the plug you end up with. The flame travel, the cylinder pressures, the
rpm, the cyl. temps, etc. are all going to be so far from a stock anything
that you really have to test it out. Meanwhile, you'll be trying to get the
jetting right, the advance right, etc., so the plug that works best with a
less-than-optimal combo might not be the best plug for an optimized setup.

So, I'd say go with a moderately hot plug until the jetting is right, and
then move on from that as a baseline.

Though I like that trick in the "hopped-up" 403 you found a while back; the
tapered-seat plugs in gasket-plug holes. To bleed off excess cylinder
pressure, I suppose, before detonation sets in... ;)

>The engine is in place, the old one on the stand now. Found an ear broken
off
>the trans :( but not too big a deal.

Aw, only one gone? Since the torque-converter bolts actually transmit all the
power, all you need the motor-tranny bolts to do is keep the tranny from
spinning when you gun it...    ;)

>Motor mounts replaced with new units- that did not fit... found another pair
>in the pile, newish, that DID fit. Dang 'better' Holley carb looks cheesy-
not
>even a double pumper, no larger, hokey secondary link modifications... New
>headers fit in with only one hammer session, didn't even have to lift the
>motor to extract the header.

I'm going to be looking at decent headers for the 455 in my '70 Cutlass in
the next year or so. The Blackjacks I had hung too low (forming those
all-so-desireable D-shaped lower header tubes) and also had the "feature" of
pre-heating the brake fluid by contacting the combination valve, so they are
out. There's not all that much of a choice, so I guess Hooker's are the one's
I'll go with. Any personal testimonials on these (Comp, Super Comp)?

>Neat trick: install a 3/8 stud in the rear header bolt hole, slot all header
>holes. Cutoff wheeel to all pointy screws on the firewall. Best method of
>torking trans-engine bolts: 3' extension and a u-joint socket- best $8 you
>can

Hmmm, my method was always a  9/16" wrench, as much as I could tighten it.
Something else to consider...

>--
>Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
>wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 22:16:47 -0300
Subject: Upcoming Weekend Projects (and what are *you* doing?) 

Well, I'm going to spend a long, romantic 3-day weekend with my Oldsmobiles!
If the weather holds, it looks like I'll

* Put a new battery in the '69 Toro, diagnose the ignition problem (thanks
for all the advice, folks; I'll let you know) and get that bad-boy running.
Maybe some reverse donuts in the Stop-n-Shop lot...  ;)

* Degrease the Toro, and check out the tranny leak

* Tear down the newly-acquired 403, in preparation for a trip to the machine
shop

* Pull the 350 block and TH400 tranny from the Vista Cruiser (yes, I *still*
have that carcass!) with my new hoist, scavenge the seats, glass and misc
trim/bits, and have that beast hauled off (thence ending the "Woodgrain Days"
chapter of my life).

* Reassemble the driver's side front suspension on the SX, and get some
steering linkage on there. Maybe do the brake lines, or paint some of the
chassis if it's warm enough.

* If there's time, polish and vacuum the Toro, clean the brakes and pump up
the driver's side tires.

Then watch whatever automotive there is on ESPN.

What fun is everyone going to make for themselves this weekend?

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 22:40:34 -0300
Subject: Re: sparking plugs 

At 14.25 04,25,96 -0300, you wrote:
>> oh, and by the way, the rings of fire cost about $12 a peice
>I doubt they make any difference.
>

actually, they do...over the split fires they had a better response and more
mpg's, they even dropped emissions
               Zack

>Dink
>
>!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~
>Dink           Dayton, Ohio
>80 Olds Delta 88 Royale  MSD, K&N, Dynomax, etc..
>http://homepages.udayton.edu/students/heinle/
>--
>
>
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\ "That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
 *************

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 22:42:34 -0300
Subject: Re: Radio Problem 

At 13.53 04,25,96 -0300, you wrote:
>What I meant to say....
>
>
>20w x 4 should mean it has four channels (Right Front, LF, RR, LR), and
>puts out 20w on each (80w total).  Back in the old days, car companies 
>                                                      ^^^^^
>						      before
>	
>realized that people really like to listen to music in their cars, a base 
>stereo was 5w x 2, for a total of ten watts.
>
and actually, the car companies were on the right track sort of...the BEST
possible situation is to find the LOWEST possible `output per the four
channels...less distortion...and then drive the speakers with a power
amp...that way you will get the best response out of your speakers
                         zack

>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -----
>Robert Lawrence   | 1970 Oldsmobile 98 Convertible               .^.
>lawrencr@gdls.com |  _________,~--,___________\____________     /9|8\
>(810) 825-8007    |  |                |~    |        ___   |    \}|{/
>Sterling Hts., MI |  =------(-o-)-------------------( o )--=      v
>
>
>
>
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\ "That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
 *************

------------------------------

From: "Dink" <heinle@jake.udayton.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 23:43:26 -0300
Subject: Re: Upcoming Weekend Projects (and what are *you* doing?)

> Well, I'm going to spend a long, romantic 3-day weekend with my Oldsmobiles!

Lucky you!

> Then watch whatever automotive there is on ESPN.
Try TNN, there is never any on ESPN unless it's the Indy 500 or 
something. Or if it's 3 in the morning. 
 
> What fun is everyone going to make for themselves this weekend?
Well I get to stay inside and study for a Calculus Final and do about 
5 Cobol programs for my lame file processing class.  But after 
tuesday 'school's out for the summer'  then I get lots of Olds time, 
and more important a job!

Good luck with your projects!

Dink

!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~
Dink           Dayton, Ohio
80 Olds Delta 88 Royale  MSD, K&N, Dynomax, etc..
http://homepages.udayton.edu/students/heinle/
- --

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 22:47:09 -0300
Subject: Re: Radio Problem 

At 14.16 04,25,96 -0300, you wrote:
>>And remember always get the amps with dials that go up to 11, because they 
>>are louder than those than only go up to 10. :)
>
>D'oh!!! I wanted that line! Oh, well, be sure to polish the dial, too,
>for best reception...
>
>>A 100 watt amp is only going to be twice as loud as a 10 watt amp (all
>>other things being equal).  Power-to-loudness is logrithmic, not
>>linear.  
>
>Right, power increases logarithmically, but if the volume control's pot
>is also logarithmic, wouldn't the volume be, say, half as loud when the
>knob was halfway up the scale? (e.g. At "5" or "5 1/2", as appropriate :-)
>
the pot is linear...and if you really want to find some excellent speakers
for bass...go to your local guitar shop and ask if they can get Hartke
Aluminum cone speakers...thye handle almost anything you can throw at
them...i know...i play bass and these ARE the BEST
                    zack

>Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
>Datalogics, Inc.
>441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
>Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473
>
>
>
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\ "That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
 *************

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 22:52:29 -0300
Subject: Re: sparking plugs 

At 16.43 04,25,96 -0300, you wrote:
>>other than split fires...there are plugs called Rings of fire, i
>>think...well they have a circular electrode rather than the split, so you
>>get more spark...
>
>Oh, wait a minute, would those be "Fire Injectors(tm)"??? J.C. Whitney
>used to sell those things for years, right next to the miracle engine
>tuneup pills and the fuel line magnets. Just skimmed a recent catalog
>and couldn't find them in there, although I did find SplitFires listed.

nope...these are made by the same guys that make split-fires...and i
remember the JC whitney fire injectors...they were not even close to the
quality of these
                         zack
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\ "That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
 *************

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 23:18:13 -0300
Subject: Re: Upcoming Weekend Projects (and what are *you* doing?) 

In a message dated 96-04-25 21:24:00 EDT, you write:

>What fun is everyone going to make for themselves this weekend?

GM show @ Macungie, PA on Sunday.  Sponsored by Keystone chapter of the
Pontiac club.  It's rained the last few years, but it finally looks like
they're gonna have a nice day for it.  Think maybe I'll scrub the convertible
top.  It hasn't been done for awhile and it doesn't qualify under the "white"
catagory any more.  Could use a polish & wax, too, but I'm not in the mood.

Paul

------------------------------

From: Brad Nicholson <76062.3042@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 00:00:34 -0300
Subject: Capitol City Rockets Spring Dust-Off

All,

Long time no talk, soory, I'll be better, BUT...

My OCA chapter is having a Spring Dust-Off this Sunday, April 28 at Carderock
Park in MD, just outside of the Beltway near the Cabin John Bridge, the west
side of the Beltway.  Here are directions:

To Carderock Park:
>From Tysons Corner, VA
North on I-495 to Exit 41 (Clara Barton Parkway to Carderock/Glenn Echo, just
North of the American Legion Memorial Bridge).  Go West on Clara Barton Parkway
about a half mile and get off at the first exit (Carderock).  At stop sign turn
left (back over the Parkway), bear right down the hill, go under the C&O Canal
to the "T" intersection.  Turn right and proceed about a half mile to the second
parking lot on the left.

>From I-270 Spur (MD side)
South on I-495 to Exit 41 (Clara Barton Parkway to Carderock/Glenn Echo, just
North of the American Legion Memorial Bridge, last exit before going into VA).
Go West on Clara Barton Parkway about a half mile and get off at the first exit
(Carderock).  At stop sign turn left (back over the Parkway), bear right down
the hill, go under the C&O 
Canal to the "T" intersection.  Turn right and proceed about a half mile to the
second parking lot on the left.

It's free and we invited the local Buick and Pontiac clubs.  THIS IS NOT A
BOWTIE AFFAIR!!!

Any questions, you can get me at work during the day Fri at (410) 965-3825 or
e-mail at brad.nicholson@ssa.gov.  Home phone is (410) 256-0381 or home e-mail
at 76062.3042@compuserve.com

Brad Nicholson
1987 442
President - Capitol City Rockets
     

------------------------------

From: glenn connors <gpc442@buffnet.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 16:56:08 -0300
Subject: subscribe oldsmobile

  

     /*
    / *
   /  *
  ____

------------------------------

From: rmv@ix.netcom.com (rmv)
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 00:32:15 -0300
Subject: Re: Mysterious paper (broadcast sheet)

>>From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
>>Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 18:15:43 -0300
>>Subject: Mysterious paper

>From: jblair@nhr.com (John T. Blair)
>Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 19:23:53 -0300
>Subject: Re: Mysterious paper 
>
>>I found an interesting piece of paper in my Cutlass this week.  It's a card 
>>8 1/2" x 4" with those little holes in the sides for continuous feeding
>>through a printer.  It has four rows of boxes going across, each row has a
>>small title box, with a blank box below it, like this:
>>                  __________
>>                 |  STYLE   |
>>                 |__________|
>>                 |  34239   |
>>                 |__________| 
>>
>>The boxes are 5/8" high and have titles like "STYLE", "SEQ", "MO", "DAY", 
etc. 
>>Is this some kind of build sheet or something?  Those five numbers in the
>>"STYLE" box match the first five numbers of my VIN#.  The SEQ# is 322, MO is
>>01, DAY is 29.  Is that the date my car was made?  There are some other 
numbers
>>in the other boxes, also.  Just curious...
>
>Dave, 
>
>That piece of paper you found is a computer print-out of certain options and 
dates. If you read JWO the March or April issue addressed these print-outs. 
I've had 2-3 cars I've found these in. Some had build sheets also and some 
didn't. You must contact one of the OLDS club advisors for your type of car 
and he may be able to help youdecode this paper. Hope this helps you some.
>
>Jim Chermack

I've found those computer card trim tags under the rear seat on cars as old as 
~1962.  I think they are sort of a forerunner to the broadcast sheet.

Has anyone ever found a 8 1/2" by 11" broadcast sheet on a Ste. Therese built 
car?  Or on a hometown (Lansing) built car?

Mike Van Auken
'79 Starfire GT

------------------------------

From: GUEISEPPI THE BARBER <JJF96@uno.cc.geneseo.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 02:05:31 -0300
Subject: Re: Sound Advice

Hey MIKE...  




  this one's about your 66 toro!!!!













"HEY THERE JERKEY!  DON'T MAKE ME GET OUT MY TOOLBOX!"  AS FOR THE 
RADIO....

i took a look at the '66 toro interior in "the cars of oldsmobile" book 
(p.304).  it is not as big as you seem to portray it to be.  if 
you find that car to be "really" wide, you must be used to driving a
VW bug or Yugo.  if this is the case, i understand.  





this next section contains some unmentionable word that i will be 
using...





i have 5 cars right now (not bad for a 22 year old college student),  my 
everyday "beater" car is a 1982 chry. lebarron...  it is a small car 
reach wise.  my next size larger car is a 1970 chevy nova i used as a 
practice resto car before working on my oldsmobiles.  This is a wider 
span....  i can see how your olds is larger in span inside the car 
compared to the nova.  then there are the oldsmobiles....  my 47 olds model  
76 and 48 olds model 66....  here is a pretty good span (i will be refering 
back to these cars) and the largest in size is my 1976 buick electrica limited.
if you want distance in the interior, this is the one for you to beat.  



the 70 nova, the 48 olds and the 76 buick all have radios in the glove box.  

the buick (since it is the largest vehicle i have) i find no problem 
reaching to change the station or turning up the volume.  but even if 
you do have a hard time...  don't you have a favorite station? or a 
continuous play on a tape or something?   



you have to live with your decision....  what looks best, what sounds 
best, and if price is important..... how cost effective is the method 
you use with the type of sound you gain from it are all things you have 
to ask yourself.  and once you get all of the parts to "build" this 
"radio face", if it doesn't work out, look at the time, labor, money, 
and possible damage you encountered.  is it worth the risks?  if so go 
for it!  but unless you have equipment to machine the parts you need to 
make your idea work, then odds are "no, it's not worth it".


if it does work (if you do it), i'm interested in seeing some pictures, 
instructions how you did it (not sending it to a person that charges an 
arm and a leg to build it for you), and a itemized parts and labor price list.


hope to hear from you in the future about this....


- --joe   the college student

------------------------------

From: "Dink" <heinle@jake.udayton.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 01:46:29 -0300
Subject: Re: Mysterious paper (broadcast sheet)

> Has anyone ever found a 8 1/2" by 11" broadcast sheet on a Ste. Therese built 
> car?  Or on a hometown (Lansing) built car?
I found a build sheet in my 80 Olds.  I believe the plant was St. 
Louis, but I could be wrong.
 
> Mike Van Auken
> '79 Starfire GT

Dink

!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~
Dink           Dayton, Ohio
80 Olds Delta 88 Royale  MSD, K&N, Dynomax, etc..
http://homepages.udayton.edu/students/heinle/
- --

------------------------------

From: OLDSPWR@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 00:39:02 -0300
Subject: Flowmasters... 

First of all, Flowmaster makes two different style mufflers, 2 and 3
chambers.  Since they use chambers to convert sound energy to heat energy, 2
chambers are alot louder than 3 chambers.  And since there is no packing
material inside them to deteriorate, they will always sound the same.
 Besides, just about everybody has some type of turbo muffler and it is nice
to hear an Olds a little differently...  Tom Millard OLDSPWR 

------------------------------

From: GUEISEPPI THE BARBER <JJF96@uno.cc.geneseo.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 02:21:06 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds History Center

hey there...  we need some standard in declaring "what is old" and "what 
is new" and the terms used to define this.



i saw a message saying about someone needing help on an "older" 
oldsmobile...  i was looking carefully seeing if it is older (like my 47 
olds).  Instead, i see "my 1960 olds...."   i say the "older" is around 1957 
and prior vintage is pre-war design (up through and including 1948).








any other ideas about this?


















p.s.  i think the guy's name is stan, (with the '38 street rod)....
did you rod it yourself?  if so i'm very interested in some of your 
solutions to possible problems you encountered.  i'm starting the
rodding process to my 47 so it will tow my 48 and i'm interested in 
suspension, steering, accessories, etc.  thanks.,


- --joe       the college student

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 05:51:38 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds History Center

I can think of several interpretations of "old":

1. There's a generally accepted (?) 25-year definition for many shows, and
other old-car activity; 

2. Our RMV office will issue antique plates to a car 30 years or older;

3. I would guess the Olds History Center has its own age limit, but I 
don't know what it might be.

Really, though, it's a moving target.  


Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 05:58:41 -0300
Subject: FAQ

I received a copy of the FAQ yesterday from David Brown and I was really 
impressed. If you don't have one yet, you should get it soon. It really 
will reduce the number of ?s here significantly. It contains many of the 
"hard info" type posts here over the last several months and is a 
remarkable resource. 

We should all give our most sincere thanks to David for this amazing 
initiative. Great stuff!

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: teubelpg@mail.hanks.com
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 01:34:46 -0300
Subject: Re: Upcoming Weekend Projects (and what are *you* doing?) 

     Man, you know how to party!  I got a full weekend planned too, but not 
     quite as busy as yours.
     
     * First I have to replace the rear diff and u-joints in my CH**Y 
     p'up....Sorry about that, but its what gets me to the junkyards and 
     Carlisle for Olds parts <g>.
     
     * Time to "uncrate" my '51 Olds 98.  Its literally boxed up in my 
     driveway.  No room in the garage.
     
     * Then I'll continue the assembly process.  Engine and tranny first, 
     then leafs and coils.
     
     I think I'll move to AZ or somewhere where its warm all year 'round!
     
     
     
     Pete
     '51 98


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Upcoming Weekend Projects (and what are *you* doing?)
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at SMTP
Date:    4/25/96 9:29 PM


Well, I'm going to spend a long, romantic 3-day weekend with my Oldsmobiles! 
If the weather holds, it looks like I'll
     
* Put a new battery in the '69 Toro, diagnose the ignition problem (thanks 
for all the advice, folks; I'll let you know) and get that bad-boy running. 
Maybe some reverse donuts in the Stop-n-Shop lot...  ;)
     
* Degrease the Toro, and check out the tranny leak
     
* Tear down the newly-acquired 403, in preparation for a trip to the machine 
shop
     
* Pull the 350 block and TH400 tranny from the Vista Cruiser (yes, I *still* 
have that carcass!) with my new hoist, scavenge the seats, glass and misc 
trim/bits, and have that beast hauled off (thence ending the "Woodgrain Days" 
chapter of my life).
     
* Reassemble the driver's side front suspension on the SX, and get some 
steering linkage on there. Maybe do the brake lines, or paint some of the 
chassis if it's warm enough.
     
* If there's time, polish and vacuum the Toro, clean the brakes and pump up 
the driver's side tires.
     
Then watch whatever automotive there is on ESPN.
     
What fun is everyone going to make for themselves this weekend?
     

------------------------------

From: Tony Molinaro <bakereng.com!AMOLINARO@bakereng.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 09:12:37 -0300
Subject: Coolant, stalling -Reply 

Your on the right track with the furl filter change

------------------------------

From: Tony Molinaro <bakereng.com!AMOLINARO@bakereng.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 09:20:06 -0300
Subject: FAQ -Reply 

>>> Greg Beaulieu <ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca> Friday, April 26, 1996 >>>

I
We should all give our most sincere thanks to David for this amazing 
initiative. Great stuff!

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia,
Canada

I second that motion

Tony Molinaro
amolinaro@Bakereng.com

------------------------------

From: Roger Saladin <rsaladin@bright.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 08:47:43 -0300
Subject: Re: Hot Rod Power Tour 

At 02:05 AM 4/22/96 -0300, Dink wrote:
>Is any body going on the Power Tour this year?  Will anybody be at the 
>Power festival in Norwalk, Ohio?  Norwalk is south of Toledo, for you 
>out of staters.  It's only about 40 min from my house so I plan on 

Better check your map before you leave, Dink. Norwalk is East of Toledo,
about 60 miles. And only about 15 miles or so south of Lake Erie. And if
you're in Dayton, better plan on a couple hours?

BTW, if anybody in the Dayton area is interested, I just got the flyer
today for the Gem City Rockets all Oldsmobile car show & swap meet. It's
on July 12th & 13th. I haven't been there for 4 or 5 years, but last time
I was there it was a pretty good time. Unfortunately, I let a few things
I wanted from the swap meet slip thru my fingers :(    I'll be quicker next
time.
Oh, yes - it's at the Howard Johnson Lodge, Route 122 and I-75, Franklin
Oh. 

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:57:22 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds History Center

Greg Beaulieu wrote:
> 
> Really, though, it's a moving target.

Einstein did say time was relative.

The 66 Toro and Mike (being 47 thinks 50 is older) 


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 09:22:14 -0300
Subject: Re: Radio Problem

RMS does not mean "power that gets put out all the time", it means Root 
Mean Square of all power the amplifier puts out.  Most amps I've seen 
this comes out to around 50% of the peak power if the peak rating is 
honest.  I'm not sure if there's a way an amplifier can have a higher RMS 
than 1/2 the peak.  Anyone?

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
 revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
 information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
 Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
 been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 09:33:33 -0300
Subject: clutches

Come on folks I know there are lots of manual trans-big block owners out 
there! What kind of clutches are you using and can you make anyt 
suggestions regarding them?

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
 revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
 information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
 Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
 been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 09:39:38 -0300
Subject: Re: Flowmasters...

"sound energy to heat energy"?  I always thought the flowmasters just 
used the sound pulses to drive out the exhaust at higher RPMs.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
 revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
 information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
 Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
 been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 09:58:32 -0300
Subject: weekend plans

	Yeeee Haaa!

 	The biggest swap meet around these parts (Dallas, Tx) is this weekend.
Pate is not as big as say Hershey, but it takes at least two days to get through
Dumping the kid (6 mo. old now, you guys remember when I announced his birth on
this list?) off with his Grandma and heading out Saturday. Weather looks to be 
perfect!



          ___              ___        _________
         /   |            /   |      /         \
        /    |           /    |     |   ___    |
       /     |          /     |     |__|   |   |
      /      |         /      |           /   /   
     /       |        /       |          /   /   
    /   /|   |       /   /|   |         /   /
   /   /_|   |__    /   /_|   |__      /   /
  |             |  |             |    /   /
  |______     __|  |______     __|   /   /_____
         |   |            |   |     |          |      Pat Clark
         |___|            |___|     |__________|       69 442
						      400/400

   "Just your average 300+hp garage hogging, gas sucking, money pit"

------------------------------

From: Mike Shokouhi <mvs@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:15:40 -0300
Subject: Body to frame first?

Hi all,

I'm in the slow process of doing my first "complete body off resto" 
on a '69 H/O, and I'm at the point where I need to figure out when to 
bring the frame and body back together.

I assumed that the body/panels should be painted first and 'baked', 
and then put on the frame, but my body guy is saying that he'll do 
everything to the body except the paint.  He then wants me to mate 
the body/frame first, put the engine, tranny, etc. in and then give 
it back to him for the final painting.  

I don't think I'll be able to do any baking after all this.

I know there are many pros and cons for both methods, does anyone 
have any experience on this to share?

Thanks,

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:15:03 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Shift Lights (was: Wacky idea.....) 

This would be cool for a nitrous system. Switch one activates system 
and lights up "Fasten seat belts", then when you use the nitrous 
maybe "Hold on" light or something :)
          
          Speaking of nitrous systems, I used the button in the end of 
          a cruise control turn signal lever to activate the nitrous 
          in the 71 Cutlass I used to have.  Easy to reach and very 
          inconspicuous.
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: Doug Ahern <doug@cobra.cosmic.uga.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 10:34:39 -0300
Subject: please post FAQ here

please post FAQ here

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:33:08 -0300
Subject: Re: Body to frame first? 

          While I've not yet reached that point with my 66 (still in 
          the process of getting the body OFF the frame!), I would 
          have to go with your body man.  The chances of scratching or 
          damaging the paint during the reinstallation process are 
          just too great.  I also doubt that any modern car 
          refinishing products really require "baking" anymore - 
          either you're using laquer (while you can still get it) 
          which certainly doesn't require baking, or you should be 
          using a two-part paint system with a catalyst/hardener.  
          Anything less on a full frame-off would be a shame.
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 13:24:34 -0300
Subject: Re: Radio Problem

Paul R. K. Kuromoto wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure if there's a way an amplifier can have a higher RMS
> than 1/2 the peak.  Anyone?

RMS is the calculation used to convert the audio wave's power (which is 
changing all the time) into a equivalent power rating (similar to an 
average).  It is also commonly refered to as "continuous" power -- the 
power the amp can put out continuously as opposed to short-term peak.  
Yes, an amp could have a higher RMS rating than 1/2 of peak.  Peak power 
can be thought of as "reserve" power.  How much reserve power an amp has 
depends on a whole lot of things and cannot be estimated easily.  The 1/2 
peak for RMS is a good rule-of-thumb but it is not absolute.

The 66 Toro and Mike

- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 13:39:27 -0300
Subject: Jerkey Advice

GUEISEPPI THE BARBER FORWARDED:
>
> "HEY THERE JERKEY!  DON'T MAKE ME GET OUT MY TOOLBOX!"  AS FOR THE
> RADIO....

Jerkey?
 
> i took a look at the '66 toro interior in "the cars of oldsmobile" book
> (p.304).  it is not as big as you seem to portray it to be...

Hmmmm, must have been a Reader Digest Condensed version.

> if you want distance in the interior, this is the one for you to beat.

Beat?  Whose trying to beat?

> ...i find no problem reaching to change the station or turning up the 
> volume.

It is 43 inches from the right side of the driver's seat back (sholder 
position) to the glove box button.  How long are YOUR arms?

> you have to live with your decision....  

I always do.

> ... possible damage you encountered.

?

> ... unless you have equipment ..

I do.

> if it does work (if you do it), i'm interested in seeing some pictures,
> instructions how you did it (not sending it to a person that charges an
> arm and a leg to build it for you), and a itemized parts and labor 
> price list.

Thank you for your interest.


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 13:45:30 -0300
Subject: Re: Radio Problem

Buddha wrote:
> 
> ...the BEST possible situation is to find the LOWEST possible `output 
> per the four channels...

I don't want to keep this going forever, Zack, but this just ain't so.  
If anyone want's to know why, email me directly.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 13:48:26 -0300
Subject: Re: Radio Problem

Buddha wrote:
> 
> the pot is linear...

The volume/loudness pot function is NEVER linear.

> ...i play bass...

Me, too.


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 09:59:43 -0300
Subject: Re: Upcoming Weekend Projects (and I could use advice) 

>Well, I'm going to spend a long, romantic 3-day weekend with my Oldsmobiles!
[...]
>What fun is everyone going to make for themselves this weekend?

Actually I have some Ch*vy-related work scheduled for Saturday, but I
think that's legit because (1) it's a charity job for a single mom we
know and (2) one of the things to fix may apply to Olds as well.

Speaking of (2) above, I could use a little insight if anyone's familiar
with this: the odometer on this '89 Celebrity doesn't work. I haven't
opened it up yet, but I believe this is the non-speedo-cable design where
the speedometer is a stepping motor and the odometer is, um, a pulse
counter, maybe? The speedo works fine. I figure the odometer probably
looks at the same pulses for input as the speedo, so the problem may be
with the mechanism that actually pushes the little number drums around.
Any other theories? Anyone else worked on this before? I figure it's
probably the same assembly as that for, say, Cutlass Cieras at least,
and maybe even post-'88 Supremes.

I've had this dash out before (yeah, the odometer was broken _before_
I got there :-) so I don't need those instructions; I just need a hint
on what I should be looking for...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #158
********************************

