
oldsmobile-digest          Sunday, 21 April 1996       Volume 01 : Number 154


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Travis L Mcwaters <travism@utdallas.edu> 
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 17:00:29 -0300
Subject: Re: Any New Members on the List? 

Bob0Barry@aol.com writes:
> Well, I haven't seen too many "new member introductions" lately ...

I signed up about 2 days ago.  I've spent the last month or so 
pushing life back into 69 Olds 98 convertable.  It had been 
parked for about 2.5 - 3 years before I started in on it.
Now the engine is back in the car and seems to be in good shape,
but the (@#$ carb is giving me fits.  Part of the swap included
moving from a 2bbl carb and intake to a 4bbl.  I found a correct
iron intake a while back, and we purchased a remanufactured 
quadajet from a local parts house.  After a little custom metal
work we've got the throttle linkage set up right and the anti-stall
dashpot in place.  I still need a bi-metalic strip choke and
a correct (or close enough) air cleaner housing. (btw, if anyone
would like a 2bbl air cleaner housing I have one available cheap)

The problem with the carb is that right about where it seems like
the secondaries should be opening up, the engine starts to sputter
and cough and this nasty hum comes up.  I've talked to a few local
gear-heads and I've got a few leads.  I'd like to get feedback
from anyone here as to what the problem(s) might be.  The first
suggestion was that the aircleaner I'm using for now (one of those
$19.95 exposed filament, two hubcaps type deals) is creating a 
turbulance in the carb that's fighting the secondaries.  If that's
the case it should be solved as soon as I can find a correct air
cleaner housing.  I want one anyway for the heat riser.  It's not
a problem right now, but this winter... 

The other idea was that there may be a resonant frequence that's
vibrating all to hell inside the intake itself.  The solution
proposed was to put a bit of a spacer between the carb and the
manifold.  This seems reasonable to me, but I'm already close
for space under the hood, so I'd rather not do this if I don't 
have to.

I'm also in the market for a good paint and body shop in the Dallas
area.  If anyone has any experiences (good or bad) with shops around
here, please let me know.  

Hopefully when I get this car finished it will be my daily driver.
Right now I'm pushing around in a '84 Chevy Cavalier.  It's been a
fairly good little car, but it is a little car.  I only paid $200
for it, so that gives you an idea of what shape it is in.  It runs
and drives and doesn't ask for much of my money so we get along
fine.
- --
Travis McWaters                             1969 Olds 98 Convertable
travism@utdallas.edu 

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 17:35:31 -0300
Subject: Page update 

     Well, I finally updated my page some more,  I put a couple new pics of
the GS and the Rockit in there, along with a page of the Northstar blow up,
and our school's 88 Cutlass Conv. Pace car.  If interested, check it out...

    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 455
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 17:35:25 -0300
Subject: Re: Troubleshooting points 

>
>>My '69 Toro turns over fine, but doesn't fire. There's plenty of gas, but no
>>spark. Any likely culprits for this? The ignition components were new just
>>before the car was parked six years ago, and look real clean (points aren't
>>burned, cap is sparkling inside). The condensor hasn't shorted out, and the
>>coil shows 1 Ohm resistance. I ran out of time after this; so what else
>>should I check for? 

     I'd check first to verify ~where~ there is no spark.  If there is
nothing at the coil wire, it would be a waste of time (at least at this
point) to chase down resistances of the secondary wiring system.  You can
get a fairly accurate diagnosis of the primary ignition system with a simple
12 Volt test light.  First, with the key on, check the (+) side of the coil.
The light should be on.  If not, the coil is not getting power for some
reason.  (Fuses, open wire, ballast wire, fuse link at the starter, etc
(They still used them back then, didn't they?)_)  If the light ~is~ on, then
you can move to the (-) side of the coil.  With the light there, crank the
engine over.  The light ~should~ flash while the engine cranks.  If the
light never goes out, then the coil is never getting a ground, so the points
are not not closing or not supplying a good ground.  If the light never
comes on, then the points are either shorted or the coil is open.  At any
rate, there is no continuity inside the coil, so it can never reach
saturation.  At this point, you should disconnect the (-) side of the coil
and recheck that post.  If the light still doesn't come on, and still does
on the (_+_) side, then it's a good time to be checking into new coils!  If
the light does come on, then double check the (-) side wiring.  (Tach lead
shorted to ground, points not openning, shorted condenser, etc.  If this is
the case, you might notice a spark (If the coil wire is close to a ground)
when you pull the test light off.  This should be a welcome sight, anyway!

     Good luck!

     There's a lot of good specs below, too, so I won't <snip> that out!




>
>Check the coil -- remove the coil wire from the distributor cap and hold its
>terminal 1/8 - 1/4 inch from a good ground.  Attach a jumper wire from the
>positive battery post to the positive terminal on the coil, and another wire
>with an ignition condensor in series between the coil's minus terminal and
>ground.  When you disconnect the ground wire, you should see a healthy spark
>between the coil's high tension wire and ground.  Also make sure the coil is
>not hooked up with its polarity reversed.  It will still work that way, but
>the secondary voltage (spark voltage) can be reduced up to 20%, and it will
>cause the electrodes of the plugs to erode.  Plus side of coil connects to
>the wire from the ignition switch, minus goes to the points.  The coil
>should show from 1/2 to a few ohms between the plus and minus terminal, and
>2,000 to 15,000 ohms between the minus terminal and the high tension terminal. 
>
>If it checks out OK, and you do have spark from the coil, check the wires
>with an ohmmeter.  4,000 - 5,000 ohms per foot is an "average" good reading.
>If the wires are OK, pull the plugs and make sure there are none which are
>badly fouled, or that have bridged electrodes.  Make sure the gap is
>correct; too large a gap, and the spark may not jump it (correct setting is
>.030").  Check the dist. cap (inside and out) for carbon tracking, as well
>as the coil tower, and check inside the coil cavity for corrosion.   Make
>sure the points actually open and close.  There should be zero ohms between
>the points when closed, and infinite resistance between the hot point and
>groung when the points are open.  The correct dwell setting for a '69 455 is
>30 degrees.  The larger the dwell angle setting, the smaller the point gap.
>Also make sure the plug wires are fully seated in the cap and on the plugs.
>Test the condensor by touching one lead of a multi-meter set on ohms to the
>pigtail of the condensor, and the other lead to the case of the condensor.
>The resistance should rise from zero to infinity as the meter's battery
>charges the condensor.  Check the condensor both ways; no other reading is
>acceptable.
>
>That's about everything I can think of...other than checking compression.
>Should be 180 psi for the 2 bbl 455 and 190 psi for the 4 bbl 455.  Lower
>reading will still work, as long as they're not to low.  My Cutlass is
>supposed to have 180; all have 170+, except #1 has 145 psi.  Still fires,
>though.
>
>Hope some of this helps...
>
>
>
>   
>--
>Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
>dpauliso@metrolink.net
>
>
>
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 455
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: Michael J Meyer <mmeyer@uceng.uc.EDU>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 17:36:04 -0300
Subject: Re: Any New Members on the List?

Hello All Again,
	
	Never have given a formal intro so here it is ( been on for
	two weeks or so.)  Anyway I have a 85 Olds Cutlass Salon
	with all options except pwr antena, T-tops, and posi.
	Great car except for mileage is catching up with it. (150K)
	I have an 200R4 from an 86 station wagon. In process of
	getting rear end and 350 to liven the car up.  Body is in
	good shape, since I have had it 4 years it hasn't seen snow.
	I enjoy reading about the other people on the net that are 
	doing similiar things to the 80's olds.

				Michael Meyer

"If you can't race it or take it to bed, it's not worth having!"

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 18:00:47 -0300
Subject: Re: Troubleshooting points

>My '69 Toro turns over fine, but doesn't fire. 
>
> 
>reason.  (Fuses, open wire, ballast wire, fuse link at the starter, etc
>(They still used them back then, didn't they?)_)  

I don't think they used fusible links back then; my 69 Cutlass has none.
None of the manuals I have mention anything about fusible links that far
back, either.
- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: jblair@nhr.com (John T. Blair)
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 19:09:24 -0300
Subject: Re: Any New Members on the List? 

>Well, I haven't seen too many "new member introductions" lately (though there
>have been a couple); has anyone joined the list recently? If so, it is
>customary to introduce yourself, and tell of your Oldsmobile interests past
>and present. I know I like hearing what other people are doing with their
>cars.
>
>So, if you have just joined the list, stand up and be counted! We'd like to
>hear from you (*even* if you don't own a Toronado...;)
>
>
Hi everyone. My name is Jim Chermack. I'm from Virginia Beach, VA. I've been a OLDS nut for 15 years or so now. My neighbor is the one with the computer. He and I, both restor cars as a hobby. I have in my inventory now a '70 Cutlass Supreme SX W-32, show car w/48,000 orig miles, '67 Toronado Deluxe 100,000 miles and is my daily driver, 86 Ninety Eight was my mothers car 80,000 miles and have had 23 other OLDS since my wafe and I got married.
I've had a 442 from every year but 65, some older big cars, and even a 66 L-69 Tri-carb 442. It's nice to have others interested in old OLDSMOBILE's to communicate with. 
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ          email:  jblair@nhr.com
Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (804) 495-8229

48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget  65 Morgan 4/4 Series V
     75 Bricklin SV1   77 Spitfire

------------------------------

From: jblair@nhr.com (John T. Blair)
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 19:09:09 -0300
Subject: Re: Correct Paint Color 

>Jim,
>
>You wrote:
>
>>Try some TESTORS model paint. It's a good enamel. If you want to do it right
>then get >a syringe an slowly squeeze paint into the emblem or hubcap.
>
>>Jim Chermack (804)474-0869
>
>Jim,
>
>Thanks, but I think you may have missunderstood what I want to paint. The
>hubcaps and Rocket emblem would be first surface preparations. Not, injecting
>paint between a backing plate and a clear cover, like some of the ones Olds
>had...if not most of GM line in the 70's & 80's. 
>
>The emblem on a 66-67 Toro on front clip is only red between the raised
>ribbing between the rocket and the edges.  In fact, the TORONADO lettering is
>painted red in the inside groove of the lettering. The hubcaps are similar
>(only flat with black outline).
>
>IMHO, this is a lacquer based paint, but I'm not sure..thus my original post.
>It's a red/wine/burgudy/almost dried blood sorta color. 
>
>If all else fails, I will pop off a hubcab and take it to an arts and crafts
>store to match the paint. I just thought there might be a GM paint number out
>there somewhere for all the brick-i-brack!
>
>PS I'm not one of those Ch*v*# V"tt* guys that is nuts about correct
>preservation. Its just that I have so may hubcaps, scripts. emblems, etc,
>That I would like to restore them and help spread the virus!  lol
>
I'm sorry, I misunderstood your plight. The hubcap your trying to repaint IS best when it's spray painted.

Jim Chermack (804)474-0869  P.S. If you know anyone needing some Toro parts I'm parting out a '68 Deluxe model.









>Thanks again Jim,
>
>Greg  (T-Toro)     
>
>
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ          email:  jblair@nhr.com
Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (804) 495-8229

48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget  65 Morgan 4/4 Series V
     75 Bricklin SV1   77 Spitfire

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 11:04:57 -0300
Subject: Re: Any New Members on the List?

John T. Blair wrote:
> 
> ...'67 Toronado Deluxe 100,000 miles and is my daily driver...

Another one!    :)

> 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V    75 Bricklin SV1...

Wish my wife still had the Morgan (sigh).  The Bricklins were pretty 
cool, pain in the ass to climb in and out of though.  On the other hand, 
the doors kept the rain off ya.

> I'm parting out a '68 Deluxe model...

What might you be wantin' for the front spindles and DISK BRAKES?
(Whoa Toro!  Whow big fella!)

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: OLDSPWR@aol.com
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 22:25:22 -0300
Subject: How to install G-body gauges... 

If anybody is interested, I have written complete instructions on how to
replace the factory Olds (78-87) Cutlass dummy light/speedo with factory
gauges.  This is very easy but some wires have to be re-arranged.  If anybody
is interested, drop me a line.  I have a complete schematic I drew up in
AutoCAD and will convert it to a JPEG if anybody replies...  Hope I can help
you out... Tom Millard OLDSPWR@aol.com

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 22:49:18 -0300
Subject: Re: Correct Paint Color 

Thanks Buddha,

Floquil...I will start calling the model train places Monday!

Greg (T-Toro)

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 22:49:20 -0300
Subject: Offset Wheel weights 

Bob,

I have had numerous sets of Toro wheels balanced throughout the years. As far
as I know, there isn't a special weight for the wheel. Any standard wheel
weight will do. However, problems can arise when the wheel weights happen to
be in same place where the wheelcover clip is. Somehow, I have always been
lucky enough to avoid this. Since 66-67-68 Toros are inside rim pinchers
(when equipped with trim rings), which precludes weight position. You, on the
other hand may run into this problem. 

To reduce the amount/number of weights required, have the wheel balanced
BEFORE mounting tires! Then the only thing requiring weights will be the tire
itself. Believe it or not, I have had two mounted tires in my time that did
not need a single weight! Rare, but a good feeling when it occurs! 

Also a WARNING here! DO NOT LET AN IDIOT MOUNT YOUR NEW TIRES! Many a
Toronado wheel has bent outside lips from some clown with a pry bar breaking
the bead and getting tire over the rim!  NOT NOT NOT!!!!  I have 12 bent rims
because of this, you can't balance it out either!   This creates a sideways
anomally, much like the wheels on the T-Models you saw on the Keystone Cops
when you were a kid! 

Since the FWD invasion, there are new mounting machines made that are
specifically made for offset wheels. Find a shop that has one. I was so
adamant about this, that the guy I go to "hand mounted my last set of tires"
 lots of soap used there I guess!  LOL  But, they are SUPER smooth
throughtout the speed curve (even at 110 mph)!

Other things to consider too. Get in touch with me before you buy new skins!

Greg  (T-Toro)

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 22:49:21 -0300
Subject: Pandemic Virus! 

Date:	96-04-20 19:19:20 EDT
From:	edison3@cpeq.com (Mike Frederick)
Sender:	oldsmobile-owner@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Reply-to:	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
To:	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca

John T. Blair wrote:
> 
> ...'67 Toronado Deluxe 100,000 miles and is my daily driver...

Another one!    :)


DITTO!  I LOVE this place!

Greg  (T-Toro)

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 22:49:15 -0300
Subject: Re: Correct Paint Color 

Gregg,

Thanks for the name of the color. Now I have a starting point anyway. Finding
it may be another task altogether!  If I find a match, I will alert the
media!!

Greg  (T-Toro)

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 22:55:14 -0300
Subject: Re: Troubleshooting points 

In a message dated 96-04-20 14:27:17 EDT, you write:

>Again, I recommend the "Ignitor" by Pertonix - a $79 black-box replacement
>for points/condenser that lives completely inside the distributor.  Easy to
>install, been around for ages, and still keeps the stock-look of the
>ignition system without extra goofy black boxes having to be mounted under
>the hood.

Yeah, I'd like to make that conversion, *after* I get the points system
running right. I have too much "experience" replacing parts that did not need
to be replaced, in an effort to fix some problem. If the points aren't the
problem, Pertonix won't help me at all.

I'll give it a go next Saturday, and tell y'all how it went.

>BTW, I LOVE the look of '69 Toros...HONEST!!!

Ok, Ok, no need to make me feel better... 

I *DO* recall comments about the '68-'70 models being "butt-ugly" from some
other members of this list, and others calling *all* Toros ugly hulks,
suitable only as parts cars for *real* Olds' like Cutlasses.

Then there's that whole debate about whether hookers prefer Toros or 98's,
which I don't *even* want to get into...

I still want to know when we buy out Hall's!

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 22:55:37 -0300
Subject: Re: Any New Members on the List? 

Wow, two responses right away! Good, keep them coming, and chime in every
once in a while just to let us know you're still there, even if you don't
have any actual questions (this from a former lurker/now active participant).
Heck, I *never* have anything to say, but you don't see that stopping me...

>I joined a while ago, but was not aware of the introduction ritual.  :)  I
>don't own any Olds' yet, but after seeing a very nice 442 W-30, I started
>looking for one.  I'd like to find one to restore, as it would improve my
>mechanical knowledge, which, right now, is close to nil. :P  
>
>Mike

Well, two ways you can go with that:

1) Buy a basket case, and acquire a *real* in-depth, hands-on knowledge of
the mechanicals of your car. This takes more time and money in the long run,
but you come out of it the wiser, and you know what is in your car.

or

2) Buy a fully or near-fully restored version, and just do minor
mods/improvements. You have instant gratification, you save money in the long
run (though there is a larger intial outlay), but don't learn as much
mechanically.

>Oops...
>
>Well, I've been around here a couple of weeks now.  I have a 69 Cutlass
>Supreme. It's a four door, however, and interior parts are very hard to find
>(plastic trim, door panels, arm rests, etc.).
[snip]  I would like
>to restore this car someday, even though it is a four door.  I love it
>anyway!

Sounds like a great driver! Yeah, four-doors seem to present a whole set of
restoration difficulties. The U.S. is odd in regard to 4-doors; down in
Australia, the hottest musclecar they built was a Boss 351-powered 4-door
Falcon, which now goes for $60,000! Here, they are shunned like the plague,
even when they look decent (and I think the '68-'69' Cutlasses are some of
the best looking 4-door A-bodies ever produced).

Good luck with a unique project; I'm sure someone on this list can put you in
touch with the parts you need, though.

Any other new Oldsmopeople out there?

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 22:58:45 -0300
Subject: Re: Any New Members on the List? 

Wow, two responses right away! Good, keep them coming, and chime in every
once in a while just to let us know you're still there, even if you don't
have any actual questions (this from a former lurker/now active participant).
Heck, I *never* have anything to say, but you don't see that stopping me...

>I joined a while ago, but was not aware of the introduction ritual.  :)  I
>don't own any Olds' yet, but after seeing a very nice 442 W-30, I started
>looking for one.  I'd like to find one to restore, as it would improve my
>mechanical knowledge, which, right now, is close to nil. :P  
>
>Mike

Well, two ways you can go with that:

1) Buy a basket case, and acquire a *real* in-depth, hands-on knowledge of
the mechanicals of your car. This takes more time and money in the long run,
but you come out of it the wiser, and you know what is in your car.

or

2) Buy a fully or near-fully restored version, and just do minor
mods/improvements. You have instant gratification, you save money in the long
run (though there is a larger intial outlay), but don't learn as much
mechanically.

>Oops...
>
>Well, I've been around here a couple of weeks now.  I have a 69 Cutlass
>Supreme. It's a four door, however, and interior parts are very hard to find
>(plastic trim, door panels, arm rests, etc.).
[snip]  I would like
>to restore this car someday, even though it is a four door.  I love it
>anyway!

Sounds like a great driver! Yeah, four-doors seem to present a whole set of
restoration difficulties. The U.S. is odd in regard to 4-doors; down in
Australia, the hottest musclecar they built was a Boss 351-powered 4-door
Falcon, which now goes for $60,000! Here, they are shunned like the plague,
even when they look decent (and I think the '68-'69' Cutlasses are some of
the best looking 4-door A-bodies ever produced).

Good luck with a unique project; I'm sure someone on this list can put you in
touch with the parts you need, though.

Any other new Oldsmopeople out there?

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 23:13:51 -0300
Subject: Re: Any New Members on the List? 

At 14.21 04,17,96 -0300, you wrote:
>
>>Well, I haven't seen too many "new member introductions" lately 
>>
>>So, if you have just joined the list, stand up and be counted! We'd like to
>>hear from you (*even* if you don't own a Toronado...;)
>>

darn...well, we have a 91 Bravada, and a 91 S-10, soon to be bravada
pickup...we my father has owned many olds...a 87 98, a 55 convertible with a
455 and trips on it...
                         zack
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\ "That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
 *************

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 16:21:21 -0300
Subject: Re[4]: 455 Valve Job 

     Well, I'm a bit confused now.  Can someone explain this to me?  I'm 
     not saying you're wrong, I'm saying I'm a bit ignorant. . .  But, I 
     don't see how taking material off the head would require you to 
     shorten the valve.  The distance from the valve seat to the top of the 
     valve spring would remain the same, right?  I can see how the valve 
     train geometry would get changed, but the picture I'm painting in my 
     head shows the pushrods as what needs fixed.  If you took material off 
     of the valve stems then a) wouldn't you need to take off 1.6 times the 
     decked amount and b) would it cause problems with coil bind or require 
     different valve springs to keep the same tension, or do you cut a 
     groove in the head to seat the spring farther down?
     
     Thanks in advance for the knowledge.

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[2]: 455 Valve Job
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    4/20/96 1:20 PM


>     Uhh.. off the valve stems?  Don't you mean off the *pushrods*? 
>
YES off the valve stems, not the pushrods. You can buy shorter push rods, but 
all
 of a sudden your vavle geometry will go to heck. The machine shop will only 
 take maybe .030 off of them.
     

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 23:43:15 -0300
Subject: Drum Brake Jobs on Older Olds's   (especially Toros) 

To all,

The following are excerpts of drum brake job advice from myself to Mike
Frederick that I E-mailed to him a few weeks ago.

This might be interesting reading for those with big Olds's from the 60's.
Athough many may find it otherwise informative!

<
<

There are several things, if not rules when it comes to drums brakes:

1. Always use OEM asbestos shoes (use no other) Yes, they are available. I
have 5 sets mounted and ready to go when needed. You will have to search
though. I get them at an undisclosed place.(if really interested I can
devulge the source)....and he gets them out of Chicago. NEVER use metallic
linings! They heat up extremely fast and chew up drums like candy!

2. Always use rivited linings...NEVER, NEVER, I repeat...NEVER use bonded
linings!   Bonded linings should be against the law! Especially in a Toro.
Once they heat up, kiss the epoxy away and the lining simply breaks away from
the backing plate!

3. Make sure the drums have plenty of stock left! Thick stock=heat
dissipation   

4. Have the drums arced! You may have to find an older shop that has an
arcing
machine. If the mechainic says, "Aaaucchh, you don't have to arc drums any
more, the shoes come pre-arced." Tell this guy to have a nice day and
move on to someone who knows what the hell they are doing. It is SO
important to do this, that I bought a used machine for 300 bucks...since
nobody knows what it is!  Arcing brake shoes insures a 100% interface
between shoe and inside drum. If you lose any amount of contact at
the circumferencial interface, you lose breaking power. And as we know,
they don't stop to begin with much less taking 25% or more of surface contact
away!

5. Keep the outside of the drum clean. Prophylactically, I wire brush the
outside of the drums and paint them with highly reflective aluminum
paint. Rustolium works well here. This helps dissipate heat and
reflects sunlight that might maintain a lower operating temperature.


6. Use only NEW wheel cylinders. Rebuilds are not dependable. An 8 dollar
difference is more than worth it.

The other stuff is obvious. Use a high quality brake fluid, stainless steel
break lines if you can afford or justify them, and make sure the booster and
master cylinder are in good shape. Since I have been doing this, my fear of
stopping has been greatly reduced. I no longer have pedal anxiety, especially
in snow as I used too!

67's Toros also came with a proportioning valve and are split between front
and back. Therefore, if you blow a line or a wheel cylinder, you have the
other two brakes working yet.


What the heck is an arcing Machine??????


In order to fully explain how the arcing machine works, we have to brush up
on our geometry and play Mr. Wizard! I designed a little experiment that will
allow you to fully understand the nature of concentric circles in seconds!

There are two ways to do this.

Method 1:

Take 2 paper plates. Take one paper plate and cut 2 inches or so off the
circumference. Keep it as round as you can. Then, cut it exactly in half (two
equal hemispheres).

Place the smaller paper plate hemispheres (as if they weren't cut) in the
center of the large paper plate. Now you have concentric circles with
different diameters.

The large plate edge represents the inside of the brake drum. The outside of
the smaller cirlce (two hemispheres) represent the outside edge of the brake
shoes.  

Gently slide the hemispheres out to the respective edges of the large paper
plate. This replicates the action of the brake shoe articulating against the
inside of the drum.

Observe, you have a diminshed contact patch. Only the high side of the shoe
hits the inner diameter of the drum translating to diminished braking
capacity. 

Now, slide the hemispheres farther out to where the ends are in conjunction
with the outside egde of the large plate diameter. Take a pencil and trace
the excess or overage between the two points. Now cut the newly defined arc.
Wallah! You have just arced your shoes!  Now the outside diameter of the
brake shoe equals the diameter of the inside of the brake drum. 100% of the
shoe, is now in contact with the drum.

Method 2:

Take a dinner plate and a smaller saucer and do the same thing. Without
cutting the saucer in two or cutting off the excess of course. The wife may
not like that, at least don't use the fine china!

This MUST be done with each drum separately, as each drum won't have the same
exact inside diameter. Especially after numerous cuttings.

In Summation:

What the arching machine does, is grinds off the high (or low) spots of the
brake shoe to match them with the same exacting diameter as to ensure
complete contact! 

I hope this sheds a little light on the subject. It vastly improves breaking
and greatly extends the life of the brake job (maybe by years). You also will
not have to cut the drums as much as the wear will be much more even across
the width. (assuming you don't go down to the rivits!)

Let me know how the experiment works.


Happy Toroing (and stopping),

Greg

------------------------------

From: John Schmich <schmich@AZStarNet.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 23:44:19 -0300
Subject: Re: Any New Members on the List? 

At 05:36 PM 4/20/96 -0300, you wrote:
>
>Hello All Again,
>	
>	Never have given a formal intro so here it is ( been on for
>	two weeks or so.)  Anyway I have a 85 Olds Cutlass Salon
>	with all options except pwr antena, T-tops, and posi.
>	Great car except for mileage is catching up with it. (150K)
>	I have an 200R4 from an 86 station wagon. In process of
>	getting rear end and 350 to liven the car up.  Body is in
>	good shape, since I have had it 4 years it hasn't seen snow.
>	I enjoy reading about the other people on the net that are 
>	doing similiar things to the 80's olds.
>
>				Michael Meyer
>
>"If you can't race it or take it to bed, it's not worth having!"
>
>
     By my count, that makes (3) 85 Salons, and (2) 86 Salons.  Does anyone
have an 87 Salon out there, would like to hear from ya.  It seems that in
the last couple months, there has been a lot of new members with the 81-88
Cutlass body style.
     I'm not sure if I've left a message in the last two weeks, but I'm to
building my 86 Salon to decent perfromance standards.  This is talk about my
car and its beefed up engine is getting old so reply directly if want the
details.  It's also on Bryceman's page, including others like Tom L., Tom M.
Jason A. 
     Keep us posted on what goes on.  

Brandon
86 Salon
Brodie
85 Salon   

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 00:31:38 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[4]: 455 Valve Job 

Tom,

I didn't think my question would create such fervor!  But, I must say that
that the by-product of this disscusion is very enlightening, as I am learning
much. Hence, one of the excellent reasons for having such a forum!!!

I tend to agree with you at this point Tom. Your arguement is convincing and
cogent. However, I also see a realationship  in the distance change betwewen
the pushrods, lifters, and ultimately the valve stem as the valve is
stationary relative to the block. The difference between the valve and the
seat DOES  change because the seat is ground down....right?   The valve, now
essentially, sits deeper into the seat, in effect, making the stem
longer....right?  Where are you going to make up the difference? The cam? The
lifter? The pushrod? The rocker arm? These are not viable options (are
they?), therefore, the valve stem becomes the easiest way to shorten the
length of the entire throw as it makes up for the slight difference of a
deepened seat. But, wouldn't shortening the stem, in effect, be the SAME as
shortening the pushrod..ulimately?

This is the way I see it, but if I knew for sure I wouldn't have asked
originally! I'm new at this engine stuff, but I'm giving it the ol' Olds try!
 (:

Thanks again! You guys raise questions I never thought of!!!!!

Greg Kalkhoff  (T-Toro)  

------------------------------

From: OLDSPWR@aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 00:32:38 -0300
Subject: Current Gauge problems... 

First of all, I get a kick out of the dealer saying 'replace the whole
cluster".  That is complete BS!!!!!    Remove the dash and tighten the
various 5/16 nuts that fasten the clear plastic circuit board to the gauge
'holders'.  After a few years they tend to work loose.  Also clean the copper
contacts on both the plug and dash.  They get corroded after some time.  This
should clear up your problem, especially of more than one gauge is giving you
trouble!   Tom Millard OLDSPWR@aol.com

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 00:42:56 -0300
Subject: Re: Troubleshooting points 

In a message dated 96-04-20 17:12:40 EDT, you write:

>I don't think they used fusible links back then; my 69 Cutlass has none.
>None of the manuals I have mention anything about fusible links that far
>back, either.

They may not have had them from the factory, but my '69 has them since the
battery cables were replaced with newer leads that included fusible links.

Of course, both battery cables were *red* (oh, one of those rare
dual-positive batteries...), so I wanted to paint the neg. cable black like
it should be, even if it would chip off the flexing plastic shortly. After
searching through my trunk and my parent's garage, I discovered that I didn't
have any black paint after all. What I *did* have was a spraycan of black
vinyl dye from 1984, that I used to do the gold panels on my Cutlass (worked
pretty well, I'd say). Shook the can, the ball still rattled, covered the
surrounding area with some newspaper, and shot the dye on the cable- works
like a charm!

So, I'm not saying you should buy a can of spray vinyl dye just to paint your
battery cables the right color, but if you have the can lying around anyway,
use it! It flexes with the cable, and looks like it's from the factory.

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 00:43:22 -0300
Subject: '69 Choke stove coil; is there a screw loose here? 

How is a choke stove coil supposed to be attached to its housing in a '69 455
intake? My coil spins freely, and hence won't close the choke. It looks like
the center of the coil should be held rigidly, but mine spins. There appear
to be threads in the center of the shaft, which caused it to expand to an
interference fit with the sheetmetal housing, but there is no screw in there,
and such a setup looks like it would last all of 4 starts in the cold.

Are these pieces available anywhere? Or is there a way to fix mine?

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 00:43:20 -0300
Subject: Re: Offset Wheel weights 

In a message dated 96-04-20 21:58:39 EDT, you write:

>Also a WARNING here! DO NOT LET AN IDIOT MOUNT YOUR NEW TIRES! Many a
>Toronado wheel has bent outside lips from some clown with a pry bar breaking
>the bead and getting tire over the rim!  NOT NOT NOT!!!!  I have 12 bent
rims
>because of this, you can't balance it out either!   This creates a sideways
>anomally, much like the wheels on the T-Models you saw on the Keystone Cops
>when you were a kid! 
>
>Since the FWD invasion, there are new mounting machines made that are
>specifically made for offset wheels. Find a shop that has one. I was so
>adamant about this, that the guy I go to "hand mounted my last set of tires"
> lots of soap used there I guess!  LOL  But, they are SUPER smooth
>throughtout the speed curve (even at 110 mph)!
>
>Other things to consider too. Get in touch with me before you buy new skins!

Thanks (again) for the advice! I will probably be in the market for a set of
tires in a year; the current set is mismatched (3-235/75's, and 1-225/75) and
ten years old. The priority this year may be a good set of true *snow* tires
(100+ inches of snow this winter makes the FWD Toro the car of choice for
next year). I would like to know what you've found to be a good handling
combination, starting with tires. Would larger 70-series tires be good on the
highway and off-ramps? And what about shocks/sway bars; any advice there?

What does a set of extra Toro rims go for? And back to a former topic, do you
have one of those deluxe wheel covers from a '69 Toro hanging around? I did
order the '69 shop manual from Fusick's; should be here sometime next week.

And thanks for the brake arching article; I never knew about brake arching,
but will certainly look for a shop that does it, since my front shoes are
cracked (though not across the pad). The drums at least look like they're in
good shape. I'll alum. paint the outside of them now that I know, though; did
you use a spray or brush-on paint?

And where do you go for OEM shoes? I'm sure the dealer will look at me like
I've got three heads when I ask for '69 Toro shoes.

------------------------------

From: David1756@aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 01:37:36 -0300
Subject: Re: '69 Toros Really are Pretty - Honest! 

Since I'm the guy who sold the 69 to Bob I just want to make very clear that
*I* never insinuated that the beast was ugly, in fact the 69 is quite a
beauty with those proto fins and dual exhausts peeking out from under the
bumper.

A question for Toro lovers only: which of the first series (66-70) appeals to
you most, same question for second series (71-77)?

For me the 66 is still the purest of the first series designs.  But the 68
ran the best of all the Toros I have owned (just sold it - sadly but out of
necessity - to a close friend).

Don't mean to start any kind of dispute among Torophiles, everyone has a
favorite, just want to hear your opinions.

David Wilk
Toro-less for the first time in many years

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 01:43:26 -0300
Subject: Jetaway Power Capacity?

Anyone have any advice re. the power capacity of a Jetaway trans? In 
discussing whether or not to change the cam on my '68 350, the question 
came up as to whether the trans would be able to handle the extra power 
for very long. 

How much can one of these reliably take? Should I forget the whole thing?

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 01:49:17 -0300
Subject: Re: '69 Toros Really are Pretty - Honest!

I agree, I like the '68 and '69 models just fine... although one of my 
books quotes an Olds executive at the time as saying it was a real turkey 
(his words, not mine). I always liked turkey...

BTW, not to rain on anyone's parade, does anyone recall seeing an article 
in JWO a while back that discussed the prevalence of engine room fires in 
'69 Toros? Don't know exactly why but I seem to recall some discussion 
about the engine wiring harness. Be careful, Bob...

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Dave Voorhis <dave@armchair.mb.ca>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 02:15:43 -0300
Subject: Re: '69 Toros Really are Pretty - Honest! 

At 01:37 AM 21/04/96 -0300, you wrote:

>A question for Toro lovers only: which of the first series (66-70) appeals to
>you most, same question for second series (71-77)?

>From the first series, I prefer the '67.  The '67 gained front disc brakes,
better headlight motors, dual whatever master cylinder, and lost the
pointless fake air intake notch above the headlights.  The only thing the
'67 falls down on is that way-cool '66 steering wheel.  The '68 and '69 were
almost as good, but my jury's still out on that split grill.  By '70 the
grill definitely missed it completely, and the rest of the car's styling was
too watered down.

Second series?  Sorry, I gotta say this:  They all suck.  If I wanted a
Cadillac Oldsorado, I'd buy one.  No, actually, I'd shoot myself.  Flame me
if you like, but I'm an opinionated SOB, and that's just the way I feel.   ;->

Dave Voorhis, '66 Toro, '67 Toro, and, what's this?  Another '67 Toro.
dave@armchair.mb.ca
http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave

------------------------------

From: Charles A Rogers <roger035@gold.tc.umn.edu>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 02:18:00 -0300
Subject: Home page update

My homepage is updated.  ithas a frames and no frames version.  no new 
pictures of my car yet.
http://www.tc.unm.edu/nhlhome/g021/roger035/index.html
those are zeros not o's.
Id appreciate your input towards my page.

thanks

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 02:45:26 -0300
Subject: Re: Offset Wheel weights 

Bob0Toro,

Many things to address here...grab a cup of coffee (or favorite beverage) and
take your shoes off.

Tires:

I am not a snow tire advocate on these hulksters. No need...110" of snow is a
mere snack for a 4500lb Toro. You can go with your favorite brand name but,
don't get an el-cheapo tire, nor do you want to get $200 Michelins (a piece)
either. Get a good M/S tire. (mud/snow). You want an L78-15 (P235)..no
bigger/no smaller. A perfect size meat for that puppy! I have had excellent
results with BF Goodrich (the style name escapes me now...will look on her
tomorrow). Goodyear has too soft a compound...they tend to scallop and wear
fast (especially the front end). If you get stuck, its because you were drunk
and ran it into a 30' snow bank! (even then... you still have a good chance
of getting out......he he he).      (: (: (:

As far as suspension goes, don't mess with mother nature. Unless the shocks
are leaking all over the place, they are still good. If you replace.....ONLY
use OEM or same type (shock rate). Fusick has them, as well as others. The
original front sway bar (stabilizer shaft) is as beefy as they come (look at
it once). Only thing there is to get 2 new connecting link packages, or a
set.... dah! (replete with nice new rubber gommets). It will be pictured in
that package you will recieve Mon or Tues.  Don't worry about the horizontal
stabilizers (anti-spring wind-up) shock mounted on the rear spring.. As
crappy as they look, they still work, as they really do nothing anyway except
control wheel hop on bumpy decellerations. Will you be doing Pikes Peak? They
are $$$$ too! Not an important factor, unless you are going for points. LOL

Rims:

Having a matched set of rims is important. Personally, I would seek out a set
of 66 rims. They are heavier, welded better, and also have a welded
reinforcing ring around the lug pattern. 67 rims are good too, but without
the ring. After that, they got a bit cheaper. A good, stock, used, steel rim
should go for no more than 30 bucks a piece. Haunt the boneyards. If you can,
spin test them before you buy, they might be bent. Few shops will straighten
them...as they don't have a jig to do it. Don't forget, Eldorado had the same
wheel (except for a slightly different slotting patern.....cooling holes in
wheel) and will also fit. Watch out for disk brake offsets, they are flatter
with less profile, they will fit the car, but you will lose a bit of the wide
tracking, aggressive, road eating, in your face appearance. When looking for
rims, make sure the holes are not scored (cupped) or egg shapped. You will
have a rumbler then, also tear up the wheel bearing. (Not Nice)!

Sorry, no 69 wheelcovers. I will keep my eyes open though.

Glad to hear you got shop manual. I brushed the silver on.....but make sure
you prep the drum nice before you paint. (don't get any on the inside
either).

Ahhh, to the OEM shoes. First of all, don't even consider going to Parts-R-
Us. You may have to scratch your head a bit here. Hunt down a local Brake,
Gear, Clutch, Drum kinda place that has been in business for a long time.
Since the middle 60's would be nice. That is your best source locally. The
place by me, used to do all the local Old's dealers brake jobs. When I went
there, they had to go into the attick to find the stock! After he blew 3
inches of dust of the box, low and behold, there they were. Needless to say,
I bought the whole box (6 sets in all)  They will only be the shoes alone
(unmounted), so bring your originals...don't forget (NO BONDING!!!! RIVITED
ONLY!!)
Sniff around, you will find them....accept NO METALLIC LININGS! DO NOT LET
SOME GUY TALK YOU INTO THEM!!!!! I beseech you!

Then, take your nice new brake shoes and get them arced!!! Don't forget to
bring your newly cut drums too, as they will need the inside diameter
measurement. Match each shoe set to a drum....a matched quad if you will!

Whew, hope that helps!

I need a beer! 

Later,

Greg Kalkhoff  (T-Toro)

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 02:45:22 -0300
Subject: Re: '69 Choke stove coil; is there a screw loose here? 

Bob "The 69 Toro Guy"

If that choke coil is anyhting like my 68..(and I think it is).....GOOD LUCK!
 They were crap from the factory (or Q-Jet) whoever made it!. First of all,
you can't fix it. Once the coil (bi-metal coil) pops out, youre cooked!
Second of all, the bi-metal coil has more than likely lost its memory and has
grown. They are not even adjustable! The men from Old's were asking toooooooo
much out of a stupid piece of metal to control sooooo much on that motor. Do
not even waste a minute on it! (I spent 3 months on it) DO not even try to
find a new one! Even if any exist!

The Fix:

I know this is gonna sound wierd but, install a manual choke
linkage.........just like the good ol' days. Don't laugh, it works, and well
I might add! Easy to do and really fun when you work it right! You just have
to remember to feather it in as the mill gets warmer. It's the ultimate for
cold weather starts and driving! Mine cost 12 bucks and worth it if it was
30!

For further info, let me know. I can take pics of my setup, scan and attach
as .gif.

When (if) you sell it, you can always take it off and put an original back
on. The manual will not hurt the originality of the car when removed. No one
will ever know!

Trust me on this one!  Been there, did it, done it!

Greg   (T-Toro)

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 03:04:57 -0300
Subject: Engine fires! 

Greg, 

I believe you are correct about the 69-T compartment fires. I will dig up the
article and double check.

To a bigger cause of engine fires however. Many a Toronado (and ANY other
model Olds for that matter) that has burned up..... can be attributed to one
major thing. It seems there are foolish people out there (who after changing
out a fuel pump or carb, replace a section of the steel gas line (which they
kinked) with a rubber line fastened with clamps....STUPID STUPID STUPID!!!!  

Now, you are Oldsmobiling down the highway, on a nice summer day at 75 MPH.
The rubber fuel line pops off and sprays the entire manifold with about 2
gallons of gas before you can say "cremation". Don't even think of applying
 the brakes, just drive it into a lake or stream, if you are that lucky to be
near one at the time! Otherwise, you are a patty melt at Denny's! Not to
mention, ruining that nice Olds you had! Puts a whole new meaning to the word
"ROCKET" doesn't it?

Moral of the story.......uhhh..... I guess you can take it from here!

Greg (Flameless Toro)

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 03:39:22 -0300
Subject: Re: Favorite Year Toronado 

I suppose I have to put my 2 cents in here.

Ist Generation:

Split decision here (similar to Dave Voorhis)

1966- For the obvious..it was the first. I do prefer the stiffer 66
suspension though. Beefier CV joints, more rugged wheels, drag racing type
steering wheel. Cheap interiors, however. Sorta like the eyebrows though!
(sorry Dave)

1967- Smoother lines. Nicer interiors. Softer suspension (a wee bit too soft)
Much better carb. Prettier colors offered. Vinyl Top (looks nice with certain
color schemes) Better brakes ( both drum and disk).

Second generation:

The 1977 SX     Only because of the wrap around back window.

Third Generation:

None: After the government (in effect) got into the car business, the entire
(GM) line became crap (by comparison to generation 1). But, they are not too
bad relative to the iron (I mean plastic) thats out there now. 

Fourth Generation:

Say what you will but the, Aurora is nothing more than an adopted Toronado
with a different name. Just ask Ralph Braun, I see the Aurora keeps sneeking
into the Toronado editorials all the time in the JWO! Its also prevalent in
the Toronado Chapter newsletter.  I'm still not sure how I feel about that!
What do you guys think?

Greg  (T-Toro)

------------------------------

From: Travis L Mcwaters <travism@utdallas.edu> 
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 09:01:22 -0300
Subject: Re: Offset Wheel weights 

> ... I did order the '69 shop manual from Fusick's ... 

Does this manual cover only the Toro's, or would it cover the
98 as well?  (if there was signifigant discussion of this manual
before 3 days ago, I missed it -- sorry)  I am in the market for a 
good reference for this '69 Olds 98 convertable that I'm working on.
I'd pay top dollar for an accurate diagram of the vacuum system 
with pictures!  (lots of fun stories there)
- --
Travis McWaters                                      69 Olds 98 Convertable
travism@utdallas.edu

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 08:59:30 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[4]: 455 Valve Job

The reason you shorten the valve is to make up for the amount the valve 
moves "up" into the head when you cut the valve seat (x-angle cut).

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
 revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
 information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
 Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
 been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 09:06:14 -0300
Subject: Couple of Items

For Sale: Offenhauser Dual Port 360 intake for a 455  
Wanted: center console parts for a 72 manual trans cutlass, G-body clutch 
pedal setup
Questions:
1. Has anyone rebuilt a Muncie 4-speed transmission before? If so where 
did you get the rebuild parts?
2. What brand of clutch are you using with your manual trans Olds and 
what are your impressions?


%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
 revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
 information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
 Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
 been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

From: Travis L Mcwaters <travism@utdallas.edu> 
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 09:17:48 -0300
Subject: Re: battery cables

> Of course, both battery cables were *red* (oh, one of those rare
> dual-positive batteries...), so I wanted to paint the neg. cable black like
> it should be, even if it would chip off the flexing plastic shortly. 

I've seen this under the hood more times than count.  You'd think
they charged extra for he black wire or something.  Sheesh.  If you
find yourself in a similar jam (and don't have paint handy) you can
simply take some black electrical tape and wrap it around the 
negative terminal.  I don't usually run the lenght of the cable,
just around 4-8" down (enough to make it plainly obvious which
is which).  It's not a high quality fix (by a longshot) and the
tape will eventually heat up and the glue will die, but it does keep
the confusion down, and it probably costs around $0.02 (assuming
you have some black electrical tape around anyway).
- --
Travis McWaters                               69 Olds 98 Convertable 
travism@utdallas.edu 

------------------------------

From: Travis L Mcwaters <travism@utdallas.edu> 
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 09:25:59 -0300
Subject: Re: '69 Choke stove coil; is there a screw loose here? 

> Are these pieces [of a choke stove coil] available anywhere? 

I went around a few weeks ago looking for choke pieces.  
As someone else put it, they looked at me as if I had 3 heads.
You can try the junk yards, but carbs are usually the first things
to get removed.  
- --
Travis McWaters                          69 Olds 98 Convertable
travism@utdallas.edu  

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 10:21:37 -0300
Subject: New finds, etc.

OK, I'm really sick of tripping over this big-valve G head I have here, that
came with the H head from Padnos. I made my $ off the H head, the G is up for
grabs cheap. It does indeed have hard xst seats, and is set for deep springs
and/or rotators. It's the Toro/442 type head. Surfaced, cleaned, crackfree, cut
for teflon seals [.531"].

Also, went to boneyard yesterday, they have 2 1970 Cutlass- a convertible & a
4-door. Both have #6 heads. An y interest in #6 heads? Oh, yeah, #6 heads have
deep spring seats & rotators all around, good for high-lift cam use...
Convertible top is there except for pump unit. Rust and dents have done in the
bodies. The 4-door, oooops, I forgot it's a 2-door, has neat brown wood-like
door panels, and NICE brown back seat, and backless bucket seat cores for
cheap. I'll prolly buy the hardtop's engine- it's only $100, has #6 heads, and
is a 4-barrel HC engine...

Got a 69-70 front bumper, 71-2 rear bumper, Toro oil pan, and a bucket full o'
misc. pcs. all for $115! Going back for an engine or 2, and a 12-bolt out of
the 1970 soon.

- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 10:32:27 -0300
Subject: WANTED 

wanted Hurst Pro-Matic 2 for 700-R4....
thanks, all of the local places round here have no idea what i'm saying when
i ask if they can order it...even when they carry every other hurst
automatic shifter.  I EVEN went to pep-boys...they are REALLY dense

also...does anyone know where i can get the small Hurst/Olds badges...my
bravada pickup will be needing them after i'm done
                         Zack

      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\ "That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
 *************

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 11:10:50 -0300
Subject: miscs

> YES, guaranteed to leak, I think, is more like it.  I'll have to get me one
> of those trays and go with the separate intake gaskets.  How can I get a
> Mondello catalog?  Got a phone #?

I was preparing to make a valley tray like that, was wondering how to get the
shape right, when it occured to me to trace the bathtub type gasket shape.
then, it occured to me to just use the old bathtub gasket itself. Here's what I
did: Cut off the head-intake holes part just under the locating holes. Bend
about 3/8 to 1/2" of that edge over, either way, from 90 degrees to full over,
for edge stiffening. I put 2 1/4" studs in the holes in the block, above the
cam bearings. Placed new valley pan on them, tapped with hammer to mark
locations. Drilled holes. Loctited studs in place. put AL spacers about 1-1.25"
high over the studs- could use nuts & washers instead- installed tray. Test
fitting one to the 425 in progress now, found that it rattled with intake in
place- easily fixed by bending it up so it stays tight against the intake.
Voila, free to use composite intake gaskets! -Chris-

>           I beg to differ.  I've used the factory-style "bathtub"
>           intake gaskets exclusively for years with no problems
>           whatsoever.  Two tricks are 1) use some type of RTV (ie,
>           Permatex Form-a-Gasket) to run a bead around both sides of
>           the coolant passages on the gasket.  Give the RTV a while to
>           dry prior to installation.  2) make sure the locating
>           flanges around the front and back bolt holes fit properly
>           into the corresponding bolt holes in the heads.  The bolt
>           holes have shallow counterbores to allow this flange to fit
>           properly.  This will hold the gasket in place while you fit
>           the manifold.  Also, obviously, you must take care to drop
>           the manifold straight down and not dislodge the gasket
>           during installation - easier said than done, especially with
>           a factory cast iron big block intake.
>           Joe Padavano

Good points, Joe, I also use silicone on the coolant passages, and tar-like
[aviation] gasket goo or whatever is supplied with gasket, on the fuel/air
passages. All this for cast iron intakes of course. And ordinary engines w/o
the separate valley tray.
   Correction: those locating dimples or flanges do not go where the bolt holes
are- they have their own holes exclusively for that purpose. I find that a few
minutes spent hand bending the intake to sit in place nicely BEFORE applying
the goo helps tremendously in avoiding 'popout' as you set the intake in place!
- -Chris-

> First, she's going through a quart of ATF every tankfull with no visible
> leaks.  Vacuum modulator...Right??  Is this as bonehead a swap as it would
> seem, its the THM350?  Any hints?
>
> Second, and more annoying, the ignition circuit seems to be grounded out
> when cranking so i have to start her by cranking in short pulses and hope
> that she catches at the end of the crank.  Ignition works fine in "run".
> Anybody have this happen before and/or have any trouble shooting hints??
> Hans

1- Yep, easy fix, cheap too. 2- try a new ign switch. I have UBU unit if you
need [Used But Useful]. -Chris-

> Called the local performance parts place today to see what they wanted
> for a Crane cam (don't recall the p/n but it's their mildest grind).
> Their price: $219 Cdn., which seems high to me. That's w/o lifters which
> the guy said were another $100 or so. Asked about Engle, said they didn't
> carry them. Asked about Wolverine/Blue Racer, he said they didn't work
> too good and he wouldn't recommend them. (Talk about shooting from the hip!)
> Mondello or Dave Smith sound better all the time.
> Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

1- call Engle, tell 'em you are "Beaulieu Racing" a distributor? 2- Don't
forget JCWhitney, Engine Service Group [$110 cam & lifters...], etc. -Chris-

> Subject: MadSwede wonder?
> Hi Guys! (and girls if there is any ?)
> May a fellow from the other side (read Europe)
> in fact Sweden, join the world of Olds ?

Welcome!

> I have subscribe for a few weeks and now it=B4s time
> to take a chance to get (or maybe give) some help.
> I=B4m just wonder if there is someone in the group that
> runs and loves the good old 40s and 50s. Well, later
> models are nice too but my heart beats a little more
> faster when 40s and 50s are around. As you can understand

kinda like thge Toro virus symptoms?
- -Chris-

> From: jblair@nhr.com (John T. Blair)
> Subject: Re: Re[2]: 455 Valve Job
> >     Uhh.. off the valve stems?  Don't you mean off the *pushrods*?
> YES off the valve stems, not the pushrods. You can buy shorter push rods, but
all of a sudden your vavle geometry will go to heck. The machine shop will only
take maybe .030 off of them.

Talk about valvetrain geometry going to heck- you are NOT supposed to mess with
the valve stem length... much. Heck, there's only maybe 0.100" of hardened tip
there! And remember, any change here is cut down by 1/1.6 factor at the lifter-
pushrod side. There is about 0.200" of lifter plunger [frickin {'s are coming
from bad connection!] movement available. So, if your lifter used to be oh,
0.060" preloaded and you shave 0.040 off the head, then use a gasket 0.020
thicker than stock, you now have 0.080" lifter preload- well within the range.
Methinks some of us here need to study up on how a lifter works and its Purpose
In Life... -Chris-

> >it . The big thing is that if they (the machine shop decks the heads the MUST
> >take t he same amount off the vale stems or you will wipe out a set of lifter
> >This is do to the non-adjustable vavle train that the OLDS engines use.
> John T. Blair  WA4OHZ          email:  jblair@nhr.com

I rest my case... Sounds an awful lot like C*evy mechanic talk to me... -Chris-

> >Wait a minute. All toro's are front drivers?  i thought only like
> >mid-eighties up were front-drivers???
> >Dazed and confused Delta owner.

The fight against Olds mis-information never ends! -Chris-

- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 02:13:48 -0300
Subject: Re: '69 Toros Really are Pretty - Honest!

Dave Voorhis wrote:

> Second series?  Sorry, I gotta say this:  They all suck.  If I wanted 
> a Cadillac Oldsorado, I'd buy one.  No, actually, I'd shoot myself.  

Ha-ha!  Got to vote with Dave.  Of course I'm partial to the 66 'cause 
I've had a couple and, yes, some of the later one had improvements...

BUT

Dave's right on the mark with the second series.  When the flowing lines 
of the Toronado gave way to the Swedish Brick (sorry Mad Swede) styling 
of the second series ... they lost me.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: urbanch@magi.com (Chris Urban)
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 11:30:53 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[4]: 455 Valve Job 

Tom 

        You are absolutey right..

>
>     Well, I'm a bit confused now.  Can someone explain this to me?  I'm 
>     not saying you're wrong, I'm saying I'm a bit ignorant. . .  But, I 
>     don't see how taking material off the head would require you to 
>     shorten the valve.  The distance from the valve seat to the top of the 
>     valve spring would remain the same, right?  I can see how the valve 
>     train geometry would get changed, but the picture I'm painting in my 
>     head shows the pushrods as what needs fixed.  If you took material off 
>     of the valve stems then a) wouldn't you need to take off 1.6 times the 
>     decked amount and b) would it cause problems with coil bind or require 
>     different valve springs to keep the same tension, or do you cut a 
>     groove in the head to seat the spring farther down?
>     
>     Thanks in advance for the knowledge.
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
>Subject: Re: Re[2]: 455 Valve Job
>Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
>Date:    4/20/96 1:20 PM
>
>
>>     Uhh.. off the valve stems?  Don't you mean off the *pushrods*? 
>>
>YES off the valve stems, not the pushrods. You can buy shorter push rods, but 
>all
> of a sudden your vavle geometry will go to heck. The machine shop will only 
> take maybe .030 off of them.
>     
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: urbanch@magi.com (Chris Urban)
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 11:30:56 -0300
Subject: Re: Jetaway Power Capacity? 

It can take all the power a cam change could throw at it and more.


>
>Anyone have any advice re. the power capacity of a Jetaway trans? In 
>discussing whether or not to change the cam on my '68 350, the question 
>came up as to whether the trans would be able to handle the extra power 
>for very long. 
>
>How much can one of these reliably take? Should I forget the whole thing?
>
>Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: SG Hartfelder <stanh@bernie.compusmart.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 12:45:53 -0300
Subject: Classified 

Here is a sample of Cars for Sale from around here.  Prices are quoted in
Cdn dollars.

        1928 4 dr sedan
        1951 98 coupe
        1954 88 4 dr sedan      $3,500
        1959 98 convertible     $7,000
        1964 98 Stretch limo    $20,000
        1969 Cutlass            $950
        1969 442 convertible    $9,500
        1970 442 convertible    $13,000

If, you would like to me to send you more information,send me an e-mail and
I'll get back to you.

__________________________________________________
S.G. Hartfelder         '38 Oldsmobile Street Rod
Edmonton, AB  CANADA    '76 Camaro
Stanh@compusmart.ab.ca		
__________________________________________________

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:40:17 -0300
Subject: Re: Drum Brake Jobs on Older Olds's   (especially Toros)

At 11:43 PM 4/20/96 -0300, you wrote:
>
>2. Always use rivited linings...NEVER, NEVER, I repeat...NEVER use bonded
>linings!   Bonded linings should be against the law! Especially in a Toro.
>Once they heat up, kiss the epoxy away and the lining simply breaks away from
>the backing plate!
>
YES, this is a must...I replaced three sets on non-riveted linings in my
Cutlass in a year.  The riveted set in there now I've had for two years...


>5. Keep the outside of the drum clean. Prophylactically, I wire brush
                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Is that _with_ a condom?? 
- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: SG Hartfelder <stanh@bernie.compusmart.ab.ca>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 12:49:11 -0300
Subject: Cassette 

        I'm taping myself a couple of cassette tapes for the cars this
summer and I'd like to focus on great CAR songs.  So far, all I've come up
with is:

        Queen - I'm in Love with my Car
        Deep Purple - Highway Star

Any other idea's?

__________________________________________________
S.G. Hartfelder         '38 Oldsmobile Street Rod
Edmonton, AB  CANADA    '76 Camaro
Stanh@compusmart.ab.ca		
__________________________________________________

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:47:20 -0300
Subject: Re: Offset Wheel weights

use OEM or same type (shock rate). Fusick has them, 


Can somebody post an address or phone # for Fusick?

Thanks...
- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:52:01 -0300
Subject: Re: Couple of Items

At 09:06 AM 4/21/96 -0300, you wrote:

>Questions:
>1. Has anyone rebuilt a Muncie 4-speed transmission before? If so where 
>did you get the rebuild parts?


Year One has rebuild parts for 1964-1974 Muncie trannies.  1-800-950-9503 is
their number.

- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 12:07:28 -0300
Subject: Re: Cassette

At 12:49 PM 4/21/96 -0300, you wrote:
>        I'm taping myself a couple of cassette tapes for the cars this
>summer and I'd like to focus on great CAR songs.  So far, all I've come up
>with is:
>
>        Queen - I'm in Love with my Car
>        Deep Purple - Highway Star
>
>Any other idea's?
>


Golden Earring-Radar Love
Sammy Hagar-I Can't Drive 55

There is at least one or maybe two by the Beach Boys, too
- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 12:09:38 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[4]: 455 Valve Job

At 04:21 PM 4/20/96 -0300, you wrote:
>
>     Well, I'm a bit confused now.  Can someone explain this to me?  I'm 
>     not saying you're wrong, I'm saying I'm a bit ignorant. . .  But, I 
>     don't see how taking material off the head would require you to 
>     shorten the valve.  The distance from the valve seat to the top of the 
>     valve spring would remain the same, right?  

Yes, if your just taking material off the head, it is not going to change
the depth of the valve seat.  I think you are correct, Tom...
- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 12:13:25 -0300
Subject: Re: Cassette

>>        I'm taping myself a couple of cassette tapes for the cars this
>>summer and I'd like to focus on great CAR songs.  So far, all I've come up
>>with is:
>>
>>        Queen - I'm in Love with my Car
>>        Deep Purple - Highway Star
>>
>>Any other idea's?


Also   RUSH - Reb Barchetta
- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: "Dink" <heinle@jake.udayton.edu>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 14:16:56 -0300
Subject: Re: WANTED

> wanted Hurst Pro-Matic 2 for 700-R4....

Did you try Summit?  1-330-630-3030

Give em a try They have prettty much everything.

Dink
80 Delta 88 Royale

{
Dink           Dayton, Ohio
http://homepages.udayton.edu/students/heinle/
Computer Information Systems Major @ UD
}

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 13:39:23 -0300
Subject: Re: Cassette 

At 12.49 04,21,96 -0300, you wrote:
>        I'm taping myself a couple of cassette tapes for the cars this
>summer and I'd like to focus on great CAR songs.  So far, all I've come up
>with is:
>
>        Queen - I'm in Love with my Car
>        Deep Purple - Highway Star
>
>Any other idea's?
>
>

Hot Rod Lincoln - Commander Cody
GTO - cant remember
Convoy - C.W. Mcall
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\ "That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
 *************

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 14:05:17 -0300
Subject: Re: Drum Brake Jobs on Older Olds's (especially Toros) 

Dave, 

I always practice "safe" brake jobs. You never know if the car was touched by
a Ch*v^ mechanic! Ergo the prophlyaxsis!  (:

Greg Kakhoff (T-Toro)

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 14:05:18 -0300
Subject: Shop Manuals 

Travis,

Generally a shop manual will cover the entire product line for that
particular year. They are nice (however, a bit generic), but you really want
is the specific shop manual for your particualr car. They are a little harder
to find and will be more $ in some cases. There is a guy in the Toro Chapter
that has them for sale (Toros only I presume). But, I don't have a back issue
handy at the moment. $40-$60 bucks seems to be the going rate!


Fusick, and a few others have them....


Greg (T-Toro)

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 14:05:12 -0300
Subject: Re: Offset Wheel weights 

Dave,

Here is a short list of Olds vendors, 

If anyone can add to the list, please do........

I can dig up the phone numbers if anyone likes:


I strongly recommend the following;

RT Engineering
Oldsmobile Catalog
P. O. Box 401
Sykesville, MD  21784

Supercar Specialty
1325 N. Red Gum #3
Anaheim, CA  92806
(Request Specific Edition for your car)

Oldsmobile USA
Parts & Supply Catalog
1941-1975
1995 Edition
8505L Euclid Ave.
Manassas, VA  22111

Katner Auto Products
76 Monroe Street
Boonton, NJ    07005

Fusick Automotive Products
PO Box 655
22 Thompson
East Windsor, CONN   06088

I use these catalogs almost monthly for stuff I need for all my other
Toronados. Check the price between them for same parts as they vary.

PS..... these are not JUST Toro catalogs...MUCHO stuff in most of them!

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 14:10:03 -0300
Subject: Re: Cassette 

How about the obvious?

In My Merry Oldsmobile  (Bing Crosby...or some other dead guy)

I supposed that would apply to the "Curved Dash" crowd more!  LOL  I'd like
to see a cassette player in a 1906 Olds!


Greg (T-Toro)

------------------------------

From: "Dink" <heinle@jake.udayton.edu>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 15:56:14 -0300
Subject: Re: Cassette

> >        Queen - I'm in Love with my Car
> >        Deep Purple - Highway Star
> 
> Hot Rod Lincoln - Commander Cody
> GTO - cant remember
> Convoy - C.W. Mcall

  409 - beach boys
  Motorhead - bush
  rapid roy - jim croce
 Workin at the car wash blues - jim croce
 Mercury blues - Alan jackson
 rockin down the highway - doobie bros
 
Dink

{
Dink           Dayton, Ohio
http://homepages.udayton.edu/students/heinle/
Computer Information Systems Major @ UD
}

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 05:51:46 -0300
Subject: Re: Cassette

SG Hartfelder wrote:
> 
>...car songs...Any other idea's?

Look through the Beach Boys (little Old Lady, 4*9, etc), Jan and Dean 
(Dead Mans Curve, etc.), Chuck Berry (Mabeline, etc.).

More?

The 66 Toro and Mike (hummin)


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 15:32:45 -0300
Subject: Re: miscs

>
>I was preparing to make a valley tray like that, was wondering how to get the
>shape right, when it occured to me to trace the bathtub type gasket shape.
>then, it occured to me to just use the old bathtub gasket itself. Here's what I
>did: Cut off the head-intake holes part just under the locating holes. Bend
>about 3/8 to 1/2" of that edge over, either way, from 90 degrees to full over,
>for edge stiffening. I put 2 1/4" studs in the holes in the block, above the
>cam bearings. Placed new valley pan on them, tapped with hammer to mark
>locations. Drilled holes. Loctited studs in place. put AL spacers about 1-1.25"
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In the pan, I presume.

>high over the studs- could use nuts & washers instead- installed tray. Test
>fitting one to the 425 in progress now, found that it rattled with intake in
>place- easily fixed by bending it up so it stays tight against the intake.
>Voila, free to use composite intake gaskets! -Chris-
>

I know where the holes in the block above the cam are, but are those studs
1/4" long or 1/4" diameter?  Do you loctite them to the holes on the pan or
the block?  What size are the aluminum spacers you used, and how do they fit
on the studs/tray?  Thanks for the help!

- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: Daniel Houlton <houlster@indirect.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 16:40:02 -0300
Subject: [none]

test

------------------------------

From: Daniel Houlton <houlster@indirect.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 16:41:49 -0300
Subject: [none]

test

------------------------------

From: dfewster@mach1.wlu.ca
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 17:36:02 -0300
Subject: Screeching noise 

I am wondering, my Oldsmobile Acheiva 8 has a strange humming-screeching
noise when driving.  It seems to vary in volume, and a small amount in pitch.
Whenever you speed up, it gets a little rader to hear.  But 60 kph the screech
                                Oops, harder to hear :)
is most audible.  Do you have any idea what this noise is?  Is it normal
for this car?  It is a 1994.

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #154
********************************

