
oldsmobile-digest          Thursday, 23 May 1996       Volume 01 : Number 183


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roger Heath <RHEATH@worldbank.org>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 16:11:19 -0300
Subject: Re: The heat is on

          >If the coolant goes through the block too fast it can't pick up 
          >the heat and too fast through the radiator can't get rid of it 
          >either.
          
          The faster the coolant flow over the heat transfer surface (the 
          engine core or the radiator tubes) the greater the amount of heat 
          transferred. Apart from temperature differences (cooler fluid), 
          this is due to increased turbulence that decreases the thickness 
          of the boundary film layer of the fluid which is the most 
          resistant part of the system to heat transfer, so the thinner the 
          better. It may be clearer to think about the air flow over the 
          radiator where it is easier to see that faster airflow picks up 
          heat better and gives greater cooling. 
          
          Roger Heath, 71 Delta 88 Convertible. 
          

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 16:20:38 -0300
Subject: RE: Check engine light

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I had something similar but it was this box that sat next to the =
carburetor which controlled the choke.... I am going way back here. I =
can't remember all the details except that it was only an 80.00 part and =
it fixed the problem. I can look it up in my repair records. I am sure =
someone on the mailing list knows what I am talking about and can give =
you the correct info.


- ----------
From: 	Chris Piersone[SMTP:pearson.11@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu]
Sent: 	Wednesday, May 22, 1996 2:56 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Re: Check engine light

>> I have an '84 Hurst Olds with a 307 and about 105k miles. The check   =

>> engine light comes on intermittently, though it stays on until I shut =
 =20
>>off  the engine. The car runs great, fluid levels are ok. Any ideas? =20
>


My 86 Cutlass's check engine light has been coming on intermittantly =
also.
Mine only when the engine is cold, and always when traveling over =
45mph..
the idle was also fast.  The shop I took it to said it was running too =
rich.
Why?  Well it turns out that my choke tube is periodically filling up =
with
gunk and keeping air from passing through to warm up...whatever its =
supposed
to warm up :-)  They dont know why its doing it, but they told me to =
bring
it back whenever it happens, and they'll blow the gunk out.  Ive been =
back 3
times, I have to bring it in again because its happening again.  It =
sounds
like a pain, but I hope to permanently fix the problem when I get my =
engine
rebuilt.  Comments????
     BTW, its an Olds 307.


Chris Pearson      Pearson.11@osu.edu





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------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 19:30:20 -0300
Subject: Re: The heat is on

Roger Heath wrote:
> 

>       The faster the coolant flow over the heat transfer surface (the
>       engine core or the radiator tubes) the greater the amount of heat
>       transferred. Apart from temperature differences (cooler fluid),
>       this is due to increased turbulence that decreases the thickness
>       of the boundary film layer of the fluid which is the most
>       resistant part of the system to heat transfer, so the thinner the
>       better. It may be clearer to think about the air flow over the
>       radiator where it is easier to see that faster airflow picks up
>       heat better and gives greater cooling.

Ha!  A water-head.  Cool.

The 66 Toro and Mike (the wire-head)


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Coccagna <mikec@pop.kis.net>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 17:28:39 -0300
Subject: Re: Check engine light

> My 86 Cutlass's check engine light has been coming on intermittantly
> also. Mine only when the engine is cold, and always when traveling
> over 45mph.. the idle was also fast.  The shop I took it to said it
> was running too rich. Why?  Well it turns out that my choke tube is
> periodically filling up with gunk and keeping air from passing
[SNIP]
> happens, and they'll blow the gunk out.  Ive been back 3 times, I
> have to bring it in again because its happening again.  It sounds

Not having to relate to having a carb for the last few years, I have 
the following, somewhat obvious, suggestions/comments/questions:

     1)  You are not using the generic gas from the local cheapie 
place, are you?  From what I've gathered, the major oil companies put 
in some type of cleaner.

     2)  Probably not real important since it's not big chunks of 
stuff going in and causing problems, but have you changed the fuel 
filter?

     3) Have you tried carb/injector cleaner (like a can of the 
Gumout spray)?  As a comment (warning?)in the FWIW bucket, I've       
heard too many applications may cause probs with  injectors by 
breaking down the material inside.

     4)  Is your car operating at it's designed temperature?

     5)  Did the shop look for a cause, or are they just fixing the 
effect?

Mike
'91 W-40 Quad442

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 15:48:26 -0300
Subject: Re: Check engine light 

>My 86 Cutlass's check engine light has been coming on intermittantly also.
>Mine only when the engine is cold, and always when traveling over 45mph..
>the idle was also fast.  The shop I took it to said it was running too rich.
>Why?  Well it turns out that my choke tube is periodically filling up with
>gunk and keeping air from passing through to warm up...whatever its supposed
>to warm up :-)  They dont know why its doing it, but they told me to bring
>it back whenever it happens, and they'll blow the gunk out. 

Huh. Now that you mention it, I found a passage on the underside of the
carb on the '82 that was similarly clogged up with some sort of black
tarry goop, as I recall. Since the rest of the carb was pretty awful,
too, I didn't think much about it at the time; everything got hot-tanked
anyway. I was doing a rebuild because I thought that the carb was the
cause of the sluggish performance, but it turned out later to be a 
partially-clogged convertor. Oh, well...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: eda@dl.tc.faa.gov
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 17:14:50 -0300
Subject: Re: Timing Chain (was Re: Time to Dump?) 

I'm curious, I thought they did away with the nylong timeing gears by the time the '80s G-body 307s rolled out.  I know my '77 had one, and I think I had to have it done at ~60 or 65K.  Seemed common in them, and any wothwhile mechanic replaced them with a steel one.

Now I see mention of top gears with nylon over steel, etc...what gives?  I'm getting really confused here...

Incidentally, anyone know where to find the build sheet on an '84 H/O?  Or was the location factory-dependent?  Or were they all made at one place?

Ed Atlee			'77 Cutlass Supreme
eda@dl.tc.faa.gov		'84 Hurst/Olds
	R O C K E T	P O W E R E D ! !

------------------------------

From: eda@dl.tc.faa.gov
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 17:24:38 -0300
Subject: RE: Time to Dump? 

Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com> wrote:

> to creep into your mind... first its a big muscle car with rwd, then you =
> decide a straight 6 with front wheel drive is ok, then you fall right
> into the fwd 4cyl family VANS... and then you die. :)

Hey, are you married? No? Boyfriend? :^)

Ed Atlee			'77 Cutlass Supreme
eda@dl.tc.faa.gov		'84 Hurst/Olds
	R O C K E T	P O W E R E D ! !

------------------------------

From: John D Bartusek <bart@cmf.nrl.navy.mil> 
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 17:27:24 -0300
Subject: Re: Timing Chain (was Re: Time to Dump?) 

Hey, does either my '69 or my '71 Cutlass' 350 V8's have this 
nylon timing gear.  What is the life span of these gears?
- -john

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 17:32:32 -0300
Subject: Re: The heat is on 

In a message dated 96-05-22 15:23:11 EDT, you write:

>. It may be clearer to think about the air flow over the 
>          radiator where it is easier to see that faster airflow picks up 
>          heat better and gives greater cooling. 

But ethylene glycol/water mix is not the same as air.  Ethylene glycol does
not absorb heat as well (some cobwebs in my brain from a physics course
almost 40 years ago say something about specific heat value?).  It is widely
published that running straight anit-freeze will significantly reduce your
cooling system's efficiency and that plain water has better heat transfer
characteristics.  Also, apparently the coolant mix does not inteface with the
metal of the block and radiator in an ideal way. The boundary/film layer is
far from ideal.   Redline Corporation, one of the larger synthetic lubricant
manufacturers, also makes a product call "Water Wetter" which is supposed to
make the water mix have a better contact with the metal which increases heat
transfer.  It is also claimed that you can run water only with no corrosion
problems.

A one time, one subject empirical experiment with a '75 motor home chassis in
hot weather showed me that temporarily running plain water indeed results in
lower operating temps.  I plan to permanently change over to water with the
Water Wetter product soon.  

So I still believe enough time to accomplish heat transfer to the
water/anti-freeze mix is a substantial consideration for car cooling systems.

Bob Handren
'67 W-30 Modified
'70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 10:38:19 -0300
Subject: Re: Check engine light and choke tubes 

     If it's the same choke tube I'm thinking about, it doesn't come in 
     contact with the gas, so none of those fixes are really relevant.  
     It's a 1/4" or so metal tube that goes from the choke down into the 
     intake manifold where it dips into the exhaust crossover heat passage 
     (the one that everyone blocks to get better performance), comes back 
     out and then into the rear of the carb (ported vacuum?).  I can't 
     imagine why this would be getting gunked up, unless the portion inside 
     the manifold were leaking.
     
     Now for the $64,000 question, if I were to block off this heat passage 
     is there any other way I could let the choke know when the engine is 
     warm?  Perhaps route that tube somewhere else?  Replace with an 
     electric choke operated by a thermal switch??
     
     Tom L.

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Check engine light
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    5/22/96 1:07 PM

> Well it turns out that my choke tube is periodically filling up
> with gunk and keeping air from passing
> happens, and they'll blow the gunk out.  Ive been back 3 times, I 
> have to bring it in again because its happening again.  It sounds
     
Not having to relate to having a carb for the last few years, I have 
the following, somewhat obvious, suggestions/comments/questions:
     
     1)  You are not using the generic gas from the local cheapie 
place, are you?  From what I've gathered, the major oil companies put 
in some type of cleaner.

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 18:18:54 -0300
Subject: Firewall Holes?

While I was replacing the voltage regulator the other day on my '68, I 
noticed something that seemed strange. Just to the left of the washer 
pump, and a few inches to the right of the regulator, is a small 
depression in the firewall very near the top, about 1/2" wide by 1 1/4" 
long. There are two holes in the depression about 1/4" to 3/8" in 
diameter, one above the other. The holes appear to lead directly into the 
cowl.

The only clue I can see is that there appears to be remnants of a piece of 
tape near the bottom of the area. Looking in the service manual it appears 
that nothing was ever supposed to be there. Would the factory really have 
just left these unplugged and covered them with tape? Can someone with a 
similar vintage Cutlass take a look and tell me what's there (or not)?

Always thought there was more engine noise than usual coming into the 
interior in this car... that's probably why.


Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: OLDSPWR@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 18:42:55 -0300
Subject: Huge spring sale... 

Ok guys, here is some stuff I have been accumulating for awhile and would
like to sell it. Keep in mind that all prices are negot.!  And here is the
good news, if you are interested in something I have, I might be able bring
it to the Mondello nationals in July.  If I have enough people interested, I
am going to convince my brother to follow me out to Ohio with his truck.

73 442 Parts:
1 442 hood will recessed louvers:  This hood is in nice shape with no rust
and as I can tell no dents.  I would like to get $75 for it if I take it to
the nationals.  Keep in mind that it would cost over $150 to have it shipped
by truck from PA, so this is a deal.

1 instrument cluster, including the speedo and gauges:  These are in nice
shape and I will include all the woodgrain dash pieces.  I don't have the
senders, but I might be able to help with the GM part numbers. I don't have
the fasten seat belt indicator either.  Asking $50 for everything.

1 pair of swivel buckets:  The material on these seats is destroyed but they
will make good cores. $40 for the pair.

1 pair of spindles:  I have no idea if anybody needs these, but I'll let them
go cheap...  so make me an offer if you can use them...

Assorted parts:    

Big Block Heads:
1 set of G's with 2.072"/1.625" valves Casting # 409 100 (all rotators)
(complete)
$75.00

Big Block Intakes:
4 barrel intake, lo-rise, non egr, from '71 Toro, Casting # 407 569 D1D (S),
  with original air cleaner and chrome/blue Toro insert   Cheap $25.00
4 barrel intake, non-egr, Casting # 404 521 D1V   $40.00

I'm not sure if any one has any need for this at all, but I also have a 2
barrel intake from a '67 425, Casting # 397 357 D2A.  Cheap....Cheap..... I
will pratically give this away.  (I don't have the heart to throw anything
away)
Anyone interested????????

Exhaust manifolds:
>From the '71 Toro, 
Driver Side Casting Number 407108 LH D2 338 (J) (Cracked).  The only reason I
mention this part is because the heat shield for the hot air tube is
complete.  I know most of them rot out, so I figured someone might need this
for a correst resto..... Real Cheap

Pass. Side Casting Number 395 752 RH D1 98 (G) Cheap...

As for the above mentioned exhaust manifolds, I am not to familiar with
Toro's and I thought somebody just might be interesed in them.  Remember,
cheap....  I don't want to get rich off of them, just pass them on to
somebody who needs them....

So if you plan on going to the Mondello nationals at Norwalk OH, I will bring
this stuff.  Drop me a line or call me at 717.842.4181.  Tom Millard
OLDSPWR@aol.com

------------------------------

From: "C. K. Yee" <yu135008@yorku.ca>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 19:44:27 -0300
Subject: spark timing / TVS switches

> > The dist'r SHOULD get its vacuum from:
> > The TVS in the water jacket, which gets its vacuum from either:
> > 1-normally, ported vacuum at the carb. Ported means no vacuum at 
> > idle, only at midrange.
> > 2-If coolant gets "way hot", TVS switches to getting vacuum from a 

What temperature does an Olds TVS switch at?
I don't have my friend's '77 Olds service manual here, but I'll describe
how the TVS in an '80 Cadillac works.  Below 120F, vacuum is applied
to the EFE valve (to divert some exhaust gas across the intake), EGR
is blocked (cold engine), and the distributor gets ported vacuum 
(retarded idle and light throttle, good for heating the exhaust to
help burn off excess hydrocarbons, good for heating up the catalyst,
but bad for cold driveability).  Above 120F, EFE is turned off, off 
idle EGR is enabled, and the distributor receives manifold vacuum.
Prior to 1980, all Cadillacs used manifold vacuum for the distributor
vacuum advance, so I am pretty sure it is an emissions related reason
to use ported vacuum during warmup.  For driveability, I've connected 
manifold vacuum directly to the distributor on my '80 Fleetwood, since cold 
performance is better with a more advanced spark.

> > 'full vacuum' source- a manifold tap. Sends this to the dist'r, which 
> > advances the which advances the timing, to alleviate overheating.
> >
> >--
> >Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
> >wittchri@pilot.msu.edu
> 
> See, told ya retarding the spark causes more heat generation.  Got an expert
> that agrees.  Not sure of the reason but it seems to me that igniting the

I can see there's a lot of real world experience speaking here.  Perhaps
we're all right in a way, as I'll attempt to explain below.

> mixture ATDC does not allow the engine a full power stroke.  But the same

My concept of a 'retarded' spark is one that is a few degrees retarded
from the factory specification.  The actual spark event has to occur 
BTDC since the mixture does not ignite instantaneously.  I don't
know how a severely retarded engine will run, since I've always dialed
in as much advance as possible.

> amount of heat is released.  Since the heat is not used to propel the car,

This sounds plausible; the release of the chemical potential energy
of a set amount of gasoline should be constant.  But, cylinder pressures
increase when the spark is advanced.  Doesn't this produce more heat?

> heat energy to mechanical energy, the excess heat is left in the engine which
> can only get rid of it through conduction.  Yea, some of it probably goes out
> the exhaust but not enough to offset the heat generated.
> 
> Any other explanations?

I just looked over the EFI section of a few manuals.  When coolant 
temperature is low, the spark is advanced to improve driveability.
At operating temperature, the normal spark tables are used.  When
coolant temperature is high, the spark is retarded to prevent detonation.
If retarding the spark here increased engine temperatures, wouldn't 
there be a 'spiral of death' scenario where the spark would be retarded,
the engine would heat up, the spark retarded some more and so on until
some sort of preset limit were reached?

> A fellow I was helping fix an old MoPar inline six once had the timing so
> retarded that the exhaust manifolds actually turned cherry red.  That's a lot

This makes sense.  Ignition of the mixture occurs closer to the 
exhaust stroke, therefore more heat will be retained in the exhaust.
Assuming the same heat is generated during ignition regardless of spark
timing, then by subtraction is less heat retained by the engine?

> of heat.  Obviously wasn't running worth spit either.  We were learning and
> didn't know TDC from DOA.  And I'm still learning every day.  Once everything
> was set correctly the motor ran cool and smooth.
> Retarded spark generates excess heat.

An engine operates under a wide variety of conditions: idling, WOT, and
everything in between, over a wide range of atmospheric conditions.  
Perhaps there are some conditions where retarding the spark generates 
more engine heat than advancing, but I wouldn't know.

> Bob Handren
> '67 W-30 Modified
> '70 SX Convertible
> Oviedo, FL

Kevin Wong

 

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 20:12:38 -0300
Subject: Re: The heat is on 

>In a message dated 96-05-22 15:23:11 EDT, you write:
>
>>. It may be clearer to think about the air flow over the 
>>          radiator where it is easier to see that faster airflow picks up 
>>          heat better and gives greater cooling. 
>
>But ethylene glycol/water mix is not the same as air.  Ethylene glycol does
>not absorb heat as well (some cobwebs in my brain from a physics course
>almost 40 years ago say something about specific heat value?).  It is widely
>published that running straight anit-freeze will significantly reduce your
>cooling system's efficiency and that plain water has better heat transfer
>characteristics.  Also, apparently the coolant mix does not inteface with the
>metal of the block and radiator in an ideal way. The boundary/film layer is
>far from ideal.   Redline Corporation, one of the larger synthetic lubricant
>manufacturers, also makes a product call "Water Wetter" which is supposed to
>make the water mix have a better contact with the metal which increases heat
>transfer.  It is also claimed that you can run water only with no corrosion
>problems.
>
>A one time, one subject empirical experiment with a '75 motor home chassis in
>hot weather showed me that temporarily running plain water indeed results in
>lower operating temps.  I plan to permanently change over to water with the
>Water Wetter product soon.  
>
>So I still believe enough time to accomplish heat transfer to the
>water/anti-freeze mix is a substantial consideration for car cooling systems.

     Yes, I agree with this arguement a lot better.  It's a lot like sex --
If its hot and fast, it's only good for a brief second or so.  If it's slow
and steady, everyone's happy!  The fast coolant flow can only extract heat
from a small depth (just the contact surfaces...)  whereas if it is slow, it
can extract the heat from deeper in the metal, and the heat can be
dissapated further into the coolant.  It's like standing in a boat on a hot
day...  Water splashes you and the wind carries a chill, etc.  You're still
hotter than hell, but your skin feels a bit cooler.  Jump in the water for a
while, tho...  
     Granted, a little different theory here, but there are several
similarities, also!
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 455
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 19:28:31 -0300
Subject: Re: Firewall Holes?

At 06:18 PM 5/22/96 -0300, you wrote:
>While I was replacing the voltage regulator the other day on my '68,

***68 Cutlass??***

>I 
>noticed something that seemed strange. Just to the left of the washer 
>pump, and a few inches to the right of the regulator, is a small 
>depression in the firewall very near the top, about 1/2" wide by 1 1/4" 
>long. There are two holes in the depression about 1/4" to 3/8" in 
>diameter, one above the other. The holes appear to lead directly into the 
>cowl.
>
>The only clue I can see is that there appears to be remnants of a piece of 
>tape near the bottom of the area. Looking in the service manual it appears 
>that nothing was ever supposed to be there. Would the factory really have 
>just left these unplugged and covered them with tape? Can someone with a 
>similar vintage Cutlass take a look and tell me what's there (or not)?
>

Just checked my 69 Cutlass, no holes or depression at all in that area.
Don't know what car you've got, though (Cutlass, 98, etc).  
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

 "I was put on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things;
    right now I'm so far behind, I'll never die"  --Calvin

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 19:24:45 -0300
Subject: Re: Timing Chain (was Re: Time to Dump?) 

At 05:27 PM 5/22/96 -0300, you wrote:
>Hey, does either my '69 or my '71 Cutlass' 350 V8's have this 
>nylon timing gear.  What is the life span of these gears?
>-john
>
>
When I pulled the pan and oil pump off my 69 350, I found many, many pieces
of timing gear teeth in the oil pump pickup, which I am assuming are from
the original timing gear.  Unless you know that the original timing gears
and chains in both your engines have been replaced, I would say they both
have the nylon (or composite, or fiber, or whatever) teeth.  It is actually
not the whole tooth that is nylon; the nylon is covering a steel tooth, so
if the nylon breaks off, the timing chain will still function, but it will
probably be quite noisy and sloppy.
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

 "I was put on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things;
    right now I'm so far behind, I'll never die"  --Calvin

------------------------------

From: "C. K. Yee" <yu135008@yorku.ca>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 20:35:07 -0300
Subject: Re: Check engine light and choke tubes

>      Now for the $64,000 question, if I were to block off this heat passage 
>      is there any other way I could let the choke know when the engine is 
>      warm?  Perhaps route that tube somewhere else?  Replace with an 
>      electric choke operated by a thermal switch??

The electric chokes I've seen receive power from the oil pressure
switch (i.e. live whenever the engine is operational).  There is
an internal ceramic resistor with a bi-metal disc that provides 
different warming characteristics above 70F and below 50F.  The
thermostatic coils also respond slightly to the heating of the
carburetor and intake manifold.  Be careful if the power source
chosen for the choke is connected straight to the ignition; if
the ignition were inadvertently left on for a couple minutes, the
choke might not set afterwards.
 
Kevin Wong

------------------------------

From: "C. K. Yee" <yu135008@yorku.ca>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 20:42:56 -0300
Subject: Heater water valve

> Well, when the 68 98's heater control valve pooped out, they sold Angela a nice
> new one- which was engineered bass-ackwards. I.e., when vacuum was applied, it
> shut off [or vice-versa- whatever- it was backwards of the way it was supposed
> to be...]. If your valve is also reverse-engineered, say, requires vacuum to
> HALT the flow of hot stuff to the heater core, then the only time it would shut
> off the hot stuff is when you turn ON the heater and the vac. line IS
> connected. [scrambled brains, anyone?]
> -Chris-

Actually, the operation of that valve sounds correct.  It seems that
in an effort to reduce as much heat as possible for MAX A/C operation,
it is designed to block coolant flow through the heater core.  Hence,
vacuum should only be present at the heater water valve when the A/C
is set on MAX.
 
Kevin Wong

------------------------------

From: lawrencr@kostabi.gdls.com (Robert Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 20:58:38 -0300
Subject: Re: The heat is on

> >>. It may be clearer to think about the air flow over the 
> >>          radiator where it is easier to see that faster airflow picks up 
> >>          heat better and gives greater cooling. 
> >
> >So I still believe enough time to accomplish heat transfer to the
> >water/anti-freeze mix is a substantial consideration for car cooling systems.
> 
>      Yes, I agree with this arguement a lot better.  It's a lot like sex --
> If its hot and fast, it's only good for a brief second or so.  If it's slow
> and steady, everyone's happy!  The fast coolant flow can only extract heat
> from a small depth (just the contact surfaces...)  whereas if it is slow, it
> can extract the heat from deeper in the metal, and the heat can be
> dissapated further into the coolant.  It's like standing in a boat on a hot
> day...  Water splashes you and the wind carries a chill, etc.  You're still
> hotter than hell, but your skin feels a bit cooler.  Jump in the water for a
> while, tho...  

Nope.  I don't buy it.  The faster the water moves through the block the better
it will cool.  Unfortunately, the faster the water moves through the radiator,
the less it will cool.  It's convection.  That's why the faster the air moves
through your radiator, the better the water will cool.

The problem with the boat example is that water conducts heat better that air.
The wind chill factor exists because moving air will remove heat from your
body faster than standing air.

A car's cooling system is a closed system.  If the water isn't getting cooled,
it doesn't matter how fast it moves through the block.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Lawrence   | 1970 Oldsmobile 98 Convertible               .^.
lawrencr@gdls.com |  _________,~--,___________\____________     /9|8\
(810) 825-8007    |  |                |~    |        ___   |    \}|{/
Sterling Hts., MI |  =------(-o-)-------------------( o )--=      v

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 21:07:51 -0300
Subject: Re: spark timing / TVS switches

At 07:44 PM 5/22/96 -0300, you wrote:

>This sounds plausible; the release of the chemical potential energy
>of a set amount of gasoline should be constant.  But, cylinder pressures
                                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>increase when the spark is advanced.  Doesn't this produce more heat?
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>Kevin Wong

Huh?  Is that true?  I don't quite understand that.  Like if I have a 9:1
CR, I could increase it to 9.25:1 by advancing spark??  That doesn't make
any sense to me.  Please explain...

Thanks
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

 "I was put on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things;
    right now I'm so far behind, I'll never die"  --Calvin

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 22:15:19 -0300
Subject: Re: 1970 OLDS 442-Columbus, OH (fwd)

Found tonight on rec.autos.antique...


>1970 Oldsmobile 442 Holiday Hardtop for sale.--Columbus, Ohio
>      (THIS IS NOT A CUTLASS!)
> Yes, I did run this ad several months ago.  I was waiting 
>to sell it to a friend but his wife changed his mind. 

>-Red w/ Black stripes  (This is not the original color.)
>-black vinyl interior, bucket seats, sports console, custom sport
>steering
> wheel, Super Stock I wheels, in-dash tachometer
>-air conditioning(not connected but I have the original compressor and
>blower unit.
>-cruise control(also not connected but I have the original unit)
>-auto-correct Turbo 400-shift kit installed
>-12 bolt posi with 3.73 gears
>----THE ENGINE----
>-less than 10 non-race miles on this correct, rebuilt, 2bolt Olds 455
>big block
>-bored .030 over
>-TRW forged aluminum pistons 10.25:1
>-new main bearings
>-rods resized and glass beaded--heavy duty ARP rod bolts
>-Mondello cam (manufactured by Engle) JM20-22..somewhat hotter than
>the stock cam but 
> reasonable on the vacuum                      intake duration:266
>                                               exhaust duration:274
>                                               intake lift: .496
>                                               exhaust lift: .512
>-Mondello bronze cam thrust button and cam spacer
>-E series heads-valve job-new TRW valves, rods, retainers 
>-Crane steel rocker arms-1.6 ratio
>-Rhoads variable duration lifters
>-Competition Cams valve springs
>-Cloyes True Roller timing chain
>-Melling high pressure oil pump
>-Holley high pressure(7psi) fuel pump
>-Edelbrock Performer intake manifold (I have the original manifold
>also)
>-Holley 4010 carb
>-MSD distributor
>-MSD Blaster 2 coil
>-Hooker headers
>-Flowmaster exhaust and mufflers
>-TCI Saturday Night Special torque converter

>......you get the idea.  This is the correct motor and transmission
>for this car although I don't know(and up until
>now never cared) if the numbers match.  I strongly suspect that if
>what you want is a numbers matching car then this car 
>isn't for you even if the numbers match.  I have over (gasp) $4,000.00
>in receipts for parts and labour on this motor. 
>This car will never be a class 1 show car.  It might however make a
>great starting point for a bomb street car or racer.
>Basically, I got really excited, blew a bunch of money and then lost
>interest.  

>-THINGS ABOUT THIS CAR THAT WOULD PISS OFF A PURIST
>-mediocre non-original paint
>-rear bumper from a 70 Cutlass (lacks the dual cutouts for the exhaust
>tips)
>-no grill
>-front bucket seat covers are from a 72 
>-fake wood vinyl trim on doors and glovebox are also from a 72(dash
>trim is original though)
>-nice dent in passenger door (not from a car collision though)
>-electric trunk latch
>-all that aftermarket engine stuff
>-that lovely Detroit lean (car leans slightly to the drivers side)
>-putty in rear quarters (very well done though)

>This car needs new tires and brakes.

>-WHAT YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW
> Like I said this will NEVER be a show car. Trying to restore this to
>all original would be a real waste of money. 
> However, it is fast..should run in low 13's and with a little work 
>could easily make it into the 12's.  This now a 462 cubic inch motor!
>You can avoid being yet another Chevelle or Camaro
>owner. I need to sell this car!  I am asking $3750.00.  I will
>consider ANY offer.  I will sell this car to the highest offer
>I get in 30 days.  Feel free to post this ad anywhere you like.

>I have tried to present an accurate a description of this car.  
>If this sounds like something you are interested in please call
>(614) 421-2913 or mail me at dmurphy@ee.net.  I have 11 jpegs of
>this car and would be happy to mail them out to anyone who wants
>a look.

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 22:26:17 -0300
Subject: Re: Firewall Holes?

On Sun, 19 May 1996, David Paulison wrote:

> ***68 Cutlass??***
> 
> 
> Just checked my 69 Cutlass, no holes or depression at all in that area.
> Don't know what car you've got, though (Cutlass, 98, etc).  

Sorry , after the saga of the battery problems I figured folks would 
remember that it's a Cutlass. 

Last night there was a second '68 Cutlass that I looked under the hood of 
at our car club meeting. It had the same holes and the same depression.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 22:45:33 -0300
Subject: Re: Check engine light and choke tubes 

In a message dated 96-05-22 17:17:01 EDT, you write:

>  I can't 
>     imagine why this would be getting gunked up, unless the portion inside 
>     the manifold were leaking.

You got it.  The tube which is in the exhaust crossover in the center of the
intake manifold, can and does corrode over time.  The choke is now drawing
not just warmed air but exhaust crud as well. Replace the intake manifold
portion (it's the one held down by two bolts) and clean the choke housing.
All should now work.  I would think that would be easier than installing an
electric choke.

'Course down here we don't need no steenking chokes -  y'all.

Bob Handren
'67 W-30 Modified
'70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 22:45:38 -0300
Subject: Re: Timing Chain (was Re: Time to Dump?)  

In a message dated 96-05-22 19:21:45 EDT, you write:

>  It is actually
>not the whole tooth that is nylon; the nylon is covering a steel tooth, 

Up through the early '70s at least it wasn't even that good.  The underlying
metal was Aluminum! 

Every engine I have built uses good old fashioned steel gears and chain.  The
use of the nylon gears was because they are quiet. With fan blades spinning,
A/C compressor, P/S pump whining, etc. I never could understand the need for
quiet unreliable timing gears. Such were used widely throughout GM.

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 22:45:43 -0300
Subject: Re: spark timing / TVS switches 

In a message dated 96-05-22 20:22:33 EDT, you write:

> But, cylinder pressures
>                                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>increase when the spark is advanced.  Doesn't this produce more heat?
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>>Kevin Wong
>
>Huh?  Is that true?  I don't quite understand that.  Like if I have a 9:1
>CR, I could increase it to 9.25:1 by advancing spark??  That doesn't make
>any sense to me.  Please explain...

What Kevin is talking about is the pressure produced by the burning fuel/air
mixture, not the compression ratio which is a static mechanical ratio of
volumes.

Fuel/air mixtures do not burn instantaneously, they take time.  Igniting the
mixture before top dead center (BTDC) allows the burn to start before the end
of the compression stroke.  If timed right this can dramatically increase the
pressure in the cylinder and the work (torque) the engine produces.  If
pre-ignition occurs the fuel burn wave from the spark plug collides with the
fuel burn wave from the pre-ignited part resulting in knock, ping, clatter
and all those other expensive sounds. Excessive heat, glowing pieces of metal
or carbon in the combustion chamber, etc. can generate pre-ignition.  Diesels
work with no spark (once warmed up) by having compression ratios like 25:1.
 The heat produced by such a high compression ignites the fuel/air mixture
all by itself.  So there are all sorts of sources for heat and spark
ignition.

For gasoline engines the trick is to design an ignition timing curve that
provides the maximum spark the engine can tolerate without suffering
pre-ignition.  This will result in the highest tolerable cylinder pressures
and engine power.  This maximum point can vary because of many factors such
as octane, engine operating temp, rpm, combustion chamber design and more.
 High octane fuels are less susceptible to spontaneous ignition and can thus
tolerate higher static compression ratios and/or advanced timing.

Does that make sense?

Versus Kevin's question of increased pressure generating more heat, I don't
think so.  The BTU's produced are a result of the energy released by the
burning fuel.  An auto engine is a heat engine.  The goal is to extract as
much work from that heat as possible. Timing the ignition of the mixture to
produce the highest pressure is maximizing the output and shouldn't change
heat generated - much.  I am sure there are some other factors affecting the
per cent of fuel burned which probably means when the pressures are not ideal
for combustion it stops. While max power can be efficient, the "smog" motors
of the early-mid 70's before catalytic converters used, in some cases,
severely retarded ignition timing curves to ensure more complete burning of
the air/fuel mixture.  Returning those timing curves to earlier specs
resulted in as much as 15% better fuel mileage.  I won't admit to the EPA to
ever having done such a thing, I just heard about it ;-).  

Anyway, these early "smog" engines were more combustion efficient but they
didn't make near the power and got lousy fuel mileage. I don't know if they
produced more or less total heat because of timing.  They did produce a lot
of heat that wasn't used to propel the car.

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 22:52:56 -0300
Subject: Re: 1970 OLDS 442-Columbus, OH (fwd) 

In a message dated 96-05-22 21:23:04 EDT, you write:

>>-Mondello cam (manufactured by Engle) JM20-22..somewhat hotter than
>>the stock cam but 
>> reasonable on the vacuum                      intake duration:266
>>                                               exhaust duration:274
>>                                               intake lift: .496
>>                                               exhaust lift: .512
>>-Mondello bronze cam thrust button and cam spacer
>>-E series heads-valve job-new TRW valves, rods, retainers 
>>-Crane steel rocker arms-1.6 ratio
>>-Rhoads variable duration lifters

Why use Rhoads lifters if you have a relatively mild cam????

>>- This is the correct motor and transmission
>for this car

>>This now a 462 cubic inch motor!

Say what? Anybody else see a few contradictions here? This description jumps
from correct to no show car to what a deal!

Oh well, caveat emptor.

------------------------------

From: Mark Wolfe <markw@wwa.com>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 23:01:16 -0300
Subject: Re: 1970 OLDS 442-Columbus, OH (fwd)

BobH592058@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 96-05-22 21:23:04 EDT, you write:
> 
> >>-Mondello cam (manufactured by Engle) JM20-22..somewhat hotter than
> >>the stock cam but
> >> reasonable on the vacuum                      intake duration:266
> >>                                               exhaust duration:274
> >>                                               intake lift: .496
> >>                                               exhaust lift: .512
> >>-Mondello bronze cam thrust button and cam spacer
> >>-E series heads-valve job-new TRW valves, rods, retainers
> >>-Crane steel rocker arms-1.6 ratio
> >>-Rhoads variable duration lifters
> 
> Why use Rhoads lifters if you have a relatively mild cam????
> 
> >>- This is the correct motor and transmission
> >for this car
> 
> >>This now a 462 cubic inch motor!
> 
> Say what? Anybody else see a few contradictions here? This description jumps
> from correct to no show car to what a deal!
> 
> Oh well, caveat emptor.


I can personally attest to that being a great cam, but you don't want to 
run rhoades with it.   Mine went 12.8's with that cam on the engine and 
slicks.   12.20's with street tires and the bottle. :)  The cam is 
drivable, have made 4 cross country trips (DSM-San Diego, and DSM to 
Seattle).    The thing definately wakes up a 455, the intake duration at 
.050 is 226/230.  Highly recommended for a stout street/strip engine.   
Only drawback is you have to make sure the rest of the valve train is up 
to the extra lift.
Cul,
Mark Wolfe

------------------------------

From: David Murphy <dmurphy@ee.net>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 23:16:05 -0300
Subject: FS: '70 Olds 442...Columbus, OH 

1970 Oldsmobile 442 Holiday Hardtop for sale.--Columbus, Ohio
      (THIS IS NOT A CUTLASS!)
 Yes, I did run this ad several months ago.  I was waiting 
to sell it to a friend but his wife changed his mind. 

- -Red w/ Black stripes  (This is not the original color.)
- -black vinyl interior, bucket seats, sports console, custom sport steering
 wheel, Super Stock I wheels, in-dash tachometer
- -air conditioning(not connected but I have the original compressor and
blower unit.
- -cruise control(also not connected but I have the original unit)
- -auto-correct Turbo 400-shift kit installed
- -12 bolt posi with 3.73 gears
- ----THE ENGINE----
- -less than 10 non-race miles on this correct, rebuilt, 2bolt Olds 455 big block
- -bored .030 over
- -TRW forged aluminum pistons 10.25:1
- -new main bearings
- -rods resized and glass beaded--heavy duty ARP rod bolts
- -Mondello cam (manufactured by Engle) JM20-22..somewhat hotter than the
stock cam but 
 reasonable on the vacuum                      intake duration:266
                                               exhaust duration:274
                                               intake lift: .496
                                               exhaust lift: .512
- -Mondello bronze cam thrust button and cam spacer
- -E series heads-valve job-new TRW valves, rods, retainers 
- -Crane steel rocker arms-1.6 ratio
- -Rhoads variable duration lifters
- -Competition Cams valve springs
- -Cloyes True Roller timing chain
- -Melling high pressure oil pump
- -Holley high pressure(7psi) fuel pump
- -Edelbrock Performer intake manifold (I have the original manifold also)
- -Holley 4010 carb (have the original quadrajet)
- -MSD distributor
- -MSD Blaster 2 coil
- -Hooker headers
- -Flowmaster exhaust and mufflers
- -TCI Saturday Night Special torque converter

......you get the idea.  This is the correct motor and transmission for this
car although I don't know(and up until
now never cared) if the numbers match.  I strongly suspect that if what you
want is a numbers matching car then this car 
isn't for you even if the numbers match.  I have over (gasp) $4,000.00 in
receipts for parts and labour on this motor. 
This car will never be a class 1 show car.  It might however make a great
starting point for a bomb street car or racer.
Basically, I got really excited, blew a bunch of money and then lost interest.  

- -THINGS ABOUT THIS CAR THAT WOULD PISS OFF A PURIST
- -mediocre non-original paint
- -rear bumper from a 70 Cutlass (lacks the dual cutouts for the exhaust tips)
- -no grill
- -front bucket seat covers are from a 72 
- -fake wood vinyl trim on doors and glovebox are also from a 72(dash trim is
original though)
- -nice dent in passenger door (not from a car collision though)
- -electric trunk latch
- -all that aftermarket engine stuff
- -that lovely Detroit lean (car leans slightly to the drivers side)
- -putty in rear quarters (very well done though)

This car needs new tires and a power steering pump seal.

- -WHAT YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW
 Like I said this will NEVER be a show car. Trying to restore this to all
original would be a real waste of money. 
 However, it is fast..should run in low 13's and with a little work 
could easily make it into the 12's.  This now a 462 cubic inch motor!  You
can avoid being yet another Chevelle or Camaro
owner. I need to sell this car!  I am asking $3750.00.  I will consider ANY
offer so don't be shy or afraid of offending me.  MAKE ME AN OFFER!  Feel
free to post this ad anywhere you like.

I have tried to present an accurate a description of this car.  
If this sounds like something you are interested in please call
(614) 421-2913 or mail me at dmurphy@ee.net.  I have 11 jpegs of
this car and would be happy to mail them out to anyone who wants
a look.

------------------------------

From: David Murphy <dmurphy@ee.net>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 23:28:03 -0300
Subject: Re: 1970 OLDS 442-Columbus, OH (fwd) 

rhoads?...somebody talked me into this...I forget the reasoning

by correct I mean that this is a 455 that went into a 1970 442  as opposed
to a 455 that went into something else and for all I know the numbers
match...I never cared up until now.  But like I said anyone looking for a
numbers matching car should probably look elsewhere to begin with.
455 cubic inch motor bored out .030 =approx. 462 cubic inches
- ---maybe I should have worded it better
- ---thanks for the response!  I'll change the wording in the future.  If you
know Olds'
I would appreciate your opinion on the price.  I do NEED to sell this very
soon to help out with school tuition. I know that I'm not gonna get even
close to what I put into it but it comes with the territory.
thanks!  



At 11:01 PM 5/22/96 -0300, you wrote:
>BobH592058@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> In a message dated 96-05-22 21:23:04 EDT, you write:
>> 
>> >>-Mondello cam (manufactured by Engle) JM20-22..somewhat hotter than
>> >>the stock cam but
>> >> reasonable on the vacuum                      intake duration:266
>> >>                                               exhaust duration:274
>> >>                                               intake lift: .496
>> >>                                               exhaust lift: .512
>> >>-Mondello bronze cam thrust button and cam spacer
>> >>-E series heads-valve job-new TRW valves, rods, retainers
>> >>-Crane steel rocker arms-1.6 ratio
>> >>-Rhoads variable duration lifters
>> 
>> Why use Rhoads lifters if you have a relatively mild cam????
>> 
>> >>- This is the correct motor and transmission
>> >for this car
>> 
>> >>This now a 462 cubic inch motor!
>> 
>> Say what? Anybody else see a few contradictions here? This description jumps
>> from correct to no show car to what a deal!
>> 
>> Oh well, caveat emptor.
>
>
>I can personally attest to that being a great cam, but you don't want to 
>run rhoades with it.   Mine went 12.8's with that cam on the engine and 
>slicks.   12.20's with street tires and the bottle. :)  The cam is 
>drivable, have made 4 cross country trips (DSM-San Diego, and DSM to 
>Seattle).    The thing definately wakes up a 455, the intake duration at 
>.050 is 226/230.  Highly recommended for a stout street/strip engine.   
>Only drawback is you have to make sure the rest of the valve train is up 
>to the extra lift.
>Cul,
>Mark Wolfe
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: Dan Williams <dr_olds@kfmw.net>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 16:58:52 -0300
Subject: Re: Firewall Holes?

Greg,

     You are not taking about the hole for the a/c wiring are you?  That enters 
the firewall at that point, but probably lower than what you are describing.  If 
nobody has figured it out by this weekend, I'll go look for this on my 68.  As 
long as the weather holds up, I'm going to take it out for the first time here.  
Wish me luck on that one.

- -Dan

Greg Beaulieu wrote:
> 
> While I was replacing the voltage regulator the other day on my '68, I
> noticed something that seemed strange. Just to the left of the washer
> pump, and a few inches to the right of the regulator, is a small
> depression in the firewall very near the top, about 1/2" wide by 1 1/4"
> long. There are two holes in the depression about 1/4" to 3/8" in
> diameter, one above the other. The holes appear to lead directly into the
> cowl.
> 
> The only clue I can see is that there appears to be remnants of a piece of
> tape near the bottom of the area. Looking in the service manual it appears
> that nothing was ever supposed to be there. Would the factory really have
> just left these unplugged and covered them with tape? Can someone with a
> similar vintage Cutlass take a look and tell me what's there (or not)?
> 
> Always thought there was more engine noise than usual coming into the
> interior in this car... that's probably why.
> 
> Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 00:34:03 -0300
Subject: V8 

ok...I am looking for an engine...its a 1965 235or 265 V8...it was an
aluminum block and heads......the reason i am looking for this is because a
friend of mine has an MG and this engine is ALMOST a direct fit...cool an
olds MG
                         zack
PS...i do have a confirmation of solid webs on certain 77 403s...more later
                    
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\         "I only kill to know i'm alive"
 *************

------------------------------

From: Nick DiGiovanni <ndigiova@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 23:36:51 -0300
Subject: Re: What does 'corporate' mean? 

At 02:32 AM 5/22/96 -0300, you wrote:
>In a message dated 96-05-20 01:15:43 EDT, you write:
>
>>   The 8.5" 10-bolt lives from '72 on to current.   Used in everything 
>>from F-bodies to light duty trucks.   I *WISH* I could find a 8.5" unit - 
>>I've *NEVER* seen one that fits 68-72... only found 8.2" Chevies, and the 
>>usual Buick/Olds rears.  
>
>There was one in my '72 Vista Cruiser (had the big wagon brakes, to boot). It
>will be replacing the 12-bolt O-type axle in my '70, which I understand is
>also an 8.5" ring-gear. You just can't find gears for that O-type rear, so
>out it goes.

Yes, its true that these "O" type rear end gears are hard to find but they
are still around. The fact that they only made this rear end for those three
years is what makes them more of a collectors item/option on your car.  If
gears are all that it needs, then Brother's automotive sells some gear sets
and rebuild kits for the carrier.  The 8.5" ring-gear is very strong
compared with the 8.75" "C" type.
  
BTW have you looked at the Hemmings adds regarding W-27 rear ends?  Some
guys are asking $2600.  These are the aluminum housing ones but the
internals are the same as the non-aluminum "O" type.

  
Nick DiGiovanni
Port Coquitlam, B.C.
1970 4-4-2 - "Snarls Softly and Carries a Big Kick"

------------------------------

From: "Peg O'Connor" <peg@grove.ufl.EDU>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 00:45:56 -0300
Subject: Re: Time to Dump?

> About the brakes:  Fords are having trouble with the metallic brake pads 
> and do best with the composition types because they are warping the 
> rotors all over the place from the heat of the metallic ones.  Another 

You said Fords have trouble; is this specific to Fords?  Are composition 
types available for GM?  What are they made of?  Is heat resistance the 
only advantage?

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 00:48:12 -0300
Subject: Re: 1970 Olds 442 

At 14.34 05,19,96 -0300, you wrote:
>At 09:02 AM 5/22/96 -0300, you wrote:
>>  
>>                  1970 OLDS 442 FOR SALE 
>>                  -----------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>   RED  , BLACK INTERIOR,  MATCHING #, HIS /HER SHIFTER,   NEW  PAINT,  
>>
>>  NEW   TIRES,  NEW FRONT SUSPENSION,  NEW SPRINGS,  MOTOR JUST 
>>  REBUILT ,  NEW CARPET, NEW HEADLINER, NEW EXHAUST, NEW 
>>  BRAKES,  NEW VINYL TOP
>>
>>  NEED TO SELL HAVE A 65 AND 71 442 TO FINISH, 
>>
>>                      *****     6500 DOLLARS . ****  PHONE 609-854-6060 
>>
>WHY ARE YOU YELLING?  What is a His/Her Shifter?  Anybody?

i believe the his hers shifter is the lightning rods
               zack

>--
>Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
>dpauliso@metrolink.net
>
> "I was put on this earth to accomplish a certain number of things;
>    right now I'm so far behind, I'll never die"  --Calvin
>
>
>
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\         "I only kill to know i'm alive"
 *************

------------------------------

From: "C. K. Yee" <yu135008@yorku.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 00:51:44 -0300
Subject: Re: spark timing / TVS switches

> > But, cylinder pressures
> >                                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>increase when the spark is advanced.  Doesn't this produce more heat?
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> >>Kevin Wong

To make that statement better, I should have qualified
it with, "when the spark is advanced from a retarded position, up
until peak combustion coincides with TDC", or something like that.

> >
> >Huh?  Is that true?  I don't quite understand that.  Like if I have a 9:1
> >CR, I could increase it to 9.25:1 by advancing spark??  That doesn't make
> >any sense to me.  Please explain...

Even by pressing on the throttle of an idling engine (sending
a denser intake charge) can increase cylinder pressure!
You can only achieve maximum cylinder pressures under WOT,
and the timing has to be ideal (not retarded from ideal).

> What Kevin is talking about is the pressure produced by the burning fuel/air
> mixture, not the compression ratio which is a static mechanical ratio of
> volumes.
> 
> Fuel/air mixtures do not burn instantaneously, they take time.  Igniting the
> mixture before top dead center (BTDC) allows the burn to start before the end
> of the compression stroke.  If timed right this can dramatically increase the
> pressure in the cylinder and the work (torque) the engine produces.  If
> pre-ignition occurs the fuel burn wave from the spark plug collides with the
> fuel burn wave from the pre-ignited part resulting in knock, ping, clatter
> and all those other expensive sounds. Excessive heat, glowing pieces of metal
> or carbon in the combustion chamber, etc. can generate pre-ignition.  Diesels
> work with no spark (once warmed up) by having compression ratios like 25:1.
>  The heat produced by such a high compression ignites the fuel/air mixture
> all by itself.  So there are all sorts of sources for heat and spark
> ignition.
> 
> For gasoline engines the trick is to design an ignition timing curve that
> provides the maximum spark the engine can tolerate without suffering
> pre-ignition.  This will result in the highest tolerable cylinder pressures
> and engine power.  This maximum point can vary because of many factors such
> as octane, engine operating temp, rpm, combustion chamber design and more.
>  High octane fuels are less susceptible to spontaneous ignition and can thus
> tolerate higher static compression ratios and/or advanced timing.
> 
> Does that make sense?

Bob, this is an excellent description of the workings within an
engine!  I'd be careful about your use of the term 'pre-ignition'
in relation to too much spark as I'm sure there are a few people
hanging around rec.autos.tech who could say a few things about 
that!  (I think the term here is detonation, but I got lost
in the exceedingly long thread on pre-ignition vs. detonation
that occurred some time ago)

> Versus Kevin's question of increased pressure generating more heat, I don't
> think so.  The BTU's produced are a result of the energy released by the
> burning fuel.  An auto engine is a heat engine.  The goal is to extract as
> much work from the heat as possible. Timing the ignition of the mixture to
> produce the highest pressure is maximizing the output and shouldn't change
> heat generated - much.  I am sure there are some other factors affecting the

This is interesting.  I guess the highest pressure would occur when
the combustion peak corresponds with the compression peak (TDC).
But, how does the efficiency of combustion change with respect to the 
pressures with which it occurs?  (this is essentially a reiteration
of your % fuel burned comment)  Instead of looking at retarded timing
for examining combustion during reduced pressures, what are
the effects of compression ratio on engine output and heat? 

> per cent of fuel burned which probably means when the pressures are not ideal
> for combustion it stops. While max power can be efficient, the "smog" motors
> of the early-mid 70's before catalytic converters used, in some cases,
> severely retarded ignition timing curves to ensure more complete burning of

This reminds me of the time I first heard about vacuum retard units,
and cringed at the thought!
  
> the air/fuel mixture.  Returning those timing curves to earlier specs
> resulted in as much as 15% better fuel mileage.  I won't admit to the EPA to
> ever having done such a thing, I just heard about it ;-).  
> 
> Anyway, these early "smog" engines were more combustion efficient but they

"Smog" engines typically had much lower compression ratios.  Wouldn't
this make combustion less efficient, especially in combination with
a retarded ignition timing?  I guess by this question, I'm now assuming
that combustion is less efficient during lower pressures.

> didn't make near the power and got lousy fuel mileage. I don't know if they
> produced more or less total heat because of timing.  They did produce a lot
> of heat that wasn't used to propel the car.
> 
> Bob Handren

I guess the more you learn, the more you find out what you don't know!
Can anyone suggest any good reading material regarding combustion
efficiency, compression ratios, spark timing, engine thermodynamics etc. ?

Kevin Wong

------------------------------

From: "Peg O'Connor" <peg@grove.ufl.EDU>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 00:51:00 -0300
Subject: Re: Q's

>      Generators haven't been used on most domestic cars since the early 60's.

So . . . . are most car mfrs too lazy to change the idiot lights?  I've 
seen 70's and up cars say GEN on the dash, not ALT.  :)

------------------------------

From: "Jason P. Labay" <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 03:53:36 -0300
Subject: Re: 1970 Olds 442

Buddha wrote:

> >>
> >WHY ARE YOU YELLING?  What is a His/Her Shifter?  Anybody?
> 
> i believe the his hers shifter is the lightning rods
>                zack

I always thought that his/her shifter was a fancy name for the Dual Gate? 
- -- 
Jason P. Labay (Akron, Ohio)				  z28cfi@gwis.com
Grad Student in Sport Administration at Kent State U.     f-list since: 7/95
1988 Camaro Z/28 Cross-Fire Injection 305
1975 Hurst/Olds W-25

------------------------------

From: "Peg O'Connor" <peg@grove.ufl.EDU>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 00:59:36 -0300
Subject: Re: Q's

> Physically, there is little visual difference between them except that 
> the alternator's diodes are often visable on the rear of the housing.  
> They resemble beer caps: round, gold or silver, pressed into place.

Practically, what are the differences?  Is an alternator better because 
it's more stable?

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 20:04:22 -0300
Subject: Re: V8

Buddha wrote:
> 
> ok...I am looking for an engine...its a 1965 235or 265 V8...it was an
> aluminum block and heads......the reason i am looking for this is because a
> friend of mine has an MG and this engine is ALMOST a direct fit...cool an
> olds MG
>                          zack
> PS...i do have a confirmation of solid webs on certain 77 403s...more later
> 
>       ___
>      /. .\
>     _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
>    / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
>    \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
>   /___\_/___\         "I only kill to know i'm alive"
>  *************

The only Olds production aluminum block/head engine that I know of is 
the 215 CI V8 of 1961-63.  That engine is rather wide but very light.  
It fills up my 1962 Jetfire so that the air-conditioning compressor is 
mounted well under the driver's side of the engine and the power brake 
booster is mounted under the brake pedal inside the car and the resevoir 
for air storage is mounted way up on the right front fender.

Horsepower is good - even the two-barrels.  The turbocharged ones are 
about equal to a Mustang 289 four-barrel in performance even with the 
Olds Slim Jim.  I have known people to use these light things for 
ultralite airplanes.   

Bill Culp

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 20:11:51 -0300
Subject: Re: Time to Dump?

Peg O'Connor wrote:
> 
> > About the brakes:  Fords are having trouble with the metallic brake pads
> > and do best with the composition types because they are warping the
> > rotors all over the place from the heat of the metallic ones.  Another
> 
> You said Fords have trouble; is this specific to Fords?  Are composition
> types available for GM?  What are they made of?  Is heat resistance the
> only advantage?

I believe that all companies that are trying to reduce weight and 
therefore are putting less metal in everything are experiencing this.  
My Mustang GT came with metallics and needed rotors turned at 7,000 
miles.  This was done with new metallic pads and at 11,000 I did it 
again.  I changed to composition and never had any more trouble through 
the present 104,000 miles.  Composition types are a little cheaper and 
don't last quite as long.  They may not stop as well in a test, but 
don't feel any different in real life.  I don't get that rotor thump at 
an early stage now and I am not replacing rotors.

Bill Culp

------------------------------

From: jrjet@whidbey.net (Dot & Tim McChesney)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 01:22:44 -0300
Subject: Re: 1970 Olds 442 

>You wrote:
>WHY ARE YOU YELLING?  What is a His/Her Shifter?  Anybody?
>
If I remember correctly it was a hurst dual gate with a key lock to lock
out the
gated side of the shifter. sorry not politicaly correct but it was advertised to
lock her out of the gated side.

Tim
71 cutlass convertable

------------------------------

From: "C. K. Yee" <yu135008@yorku.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 01:21:08 -0300
Subject: Warped rotors and metallic pads

> About the brakes:  Fords are having trouble with the metallic brake pads 
> and do best with the composition types because they are warping the 
> rotors all over the place from the heat of the metallic ones.  Another 

Since I'm still in a thermodynamic mood, I thought about this brake
problem.  Regardless of the type of pad, shouldn't the amount of heat
generated from braking be dependent on the initial speed and mass of
the vehicle?  I guess that in this analysis, you'd have to disregard
the differences in maximum stopping power between different brake
pad materials, but assume that all braking is moderate.  Brakes convert
kinetic energy (movement of car) to heat.  If metallic pads do indeed
heat up more, then their maximum braking potential is higher.  But do 
most people use their brakes near their maximum capacity all the time?
 
A neighbour and a friend both have identical BMW 320's (1993 & 1995).
The 1993 model, now at 30,000 miles, is in need of new front rotors.
This car has only seen relatively light braking, as it is his mother's
car.  On the other hand, my neighbour's '95 has 11,000 miles, is now
in need of new pads! (both cars have the original metallic pads)  This
car is driven to the limit regularly, yet there are no signs of 
rotor warpage.  My explanation is that rotors on the 30,000 mile
car are worn much thinner due to the higher mileage, and they
are more susceptible to warping.  Any other ideas?

Kevin Wong

P.S.  Why would anyone want to use metallic pads?  Have you
      seen the way they chew up rotors?

------------------------------

From: Bob Valentine <ravalent@liii.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 02:16:48 -0300
Subject: Re: Battery Problems Again!

On Fri, 17 May 1996, David Paulison wrote:

> Yes, please post that...I'm considering converting to HEI soon, and would
> like to convert to internal regulator at the same time.  From what you said,
> the external regulator remains in place?  Just doesn't function anymore,
> retains "original" look, right?

As requested:

Converting externally regulated GM alternators (pre-'71) to internally
regulated post-71 alternators is a relativly easy affair.   This is also a 
necessasary conversion before/during a HEI or other electronic igniton
conversion.    Also nice if you get stuck in the middle of nowhere 
and need parts --  10/12SI units are much more common these days...

Once you've done it, you'll never drive another car with a vibratior 
regulator and points....

Some BACKGROUND info:

GM Internally regulated units are broken down into 2 models for our purposes, 
the 10SI and the 12SI.  Both can be used interchangably in most cases,
and both use identical hookups.

The 10SI is the same physical size as your old alternator.   It looks rather 
simular, except the back is more closed, and the two connectors are
horizontal instead of vertical.  This unit usually has a steel fan.
They are rated from 42 amps to 63 amps as a stock unit.  The  
rating is stamped on the case below the mounting ear.

The 12SI is a higher output version found on many mid-80's cars.  It is 
easily identifable by its slightly larger case, and a PLASTIC fan.   This 
unit will usually bolt in wherever a 10SI will fit.   This does not look 
as close to your old alternator, but it does put out 85 amps at full load
and has a increased output at idle.   Note that many of these units had 
*METRIC* mounting holes.   Also note that the 12SI's from GM FWD cars look
the same, but will not mount as well.   Look under the hood of just about
any 82-87 GM with a Olds 307 and you'll find one of these.

If you want a *REAL* wiring diagram, look up one for like a '76 Cutlass.  

HOOKUPS:

    Either alternator will bolt in place of your existing unit.  You may need 
to "turn" the case to get the 2 wire connector to be accessable on your 
specific engine.

    Assuming you pull the alternator from a junk car, make sure to cut the 
two prong connector for the regulator from the harness.  Otherwise, pick    
up a connector at the auto parts store.  Sometimes you have to buy a "harness
extender" to get it.

EASY WAY:    
    
    The battery cable goes to the BAT post on the new alternator.

    Terminal #1 goes to a switched 12-volt source.   A cheap-n-dirty way
    to accompish this AND to retain operation of the charge light is to 
    run a wire from the #1 terminal of the new alternator to the #4 position 
    of the harness connector on the old external regulator.  
    
    MAKE SURE TO DISCONNECT THE REGULATOR!

    Terminal #2 goes to the battery.  Easiest hookup is to jump it directly
    to the BAT terminal of the alternator.

    This is the easy-but-ugly way to do the conversion.


FANCY WAY:

    OK, you said you wanted to retain the external regulator look.  No prob!

    First, remove the old (or use a spare for practice) regulator from the 
    car.  Remove the cover plate.   Here's your goal:

       Jumper terminal F and terminal 3 together
       Jumper terminal 2 and terminal 4 toegther

ARTWORK:
                            TOP (DOWN) VIEW
                     ----------------------------
                     |                          |
                     |                          |
                     |  10 ga. jumper           |
                     |  -------------           |
                     |  |           |           |
                     |_ F ___ 2 ___ 3 ___ 4 ____|
        Latch  ---->    *     *     *     *
                              |___________|
                              10 ga. jumper

    1. Make sure they do not ground anywhere, or are connected in any way.  
    2. Make sure to cut the resistors off the back of the regulator!
    3. Check and double check that these are the only connections made!

ON THE ALTERNATOR:

    Step 1:   Remove the wires from the plug connector on the 10/12SI unit.
              This can be done with a pin or small screwdriver to relase
              the tab that hold the connectors in the plastic shell.  If you
              want to cheat, just cut the wires off the old connector and 
              replace "splice" for "insert" in steps 2 and 3 below.   ;^)

    Step 2:   Remove the wire from the old alternator connector that went to 
              the F terminal.  It should (usually?) be BLUE or GREEN.  Insert
              this wire in the new connector so it connects to the #2
              terminal of the new alternator.

    Step 3:   Repeat step 2 for the other wire; the wire for the old R 
              terminal goes to the #1 terminal on the 10/12SI unit.  This 
              is usually a WHITE wire.
              
    You may find that the old terminals are corroded or burned.  Now's a darn
    good time to replace them.

CHECKOUT:

    Fire up the car.   The alternator should start charging immediately if
    you've hooked up everything correctly.   If it does not, here's my
    checklist, in order:

    1.   Connector on the new alternator is secure *AND* making good contact.
         If you used your old terminals then this is probably the bad point.

    2.   Check for +12 volts at terminal #2 and BAT with the ignition OFF.  

    3.   Check that the generator light works.

    4.   Check for +12 at both terminals on the harness with the harness
         disconnected from the regulator.

    5.   Email me and I'll try and help.

NOTES:

    I've done this swap several times.  I didn't come up with the "fancy" way
until after I had *WAY* to much time on my hands and had nothing else to 
do...  The first way works fine and I use it on my beater cars.  The second 
method works nice for a non-100-point resto vehicle.  Heck, it's fooled more
than a few guys around here.

DISCLAIMER:

    I have never done this swap on a car with factory guages (amp or volt),
but I can't really see any reason *WHY* that would present a problem.  You
might want to also consider putting in a heavier wire from the alternator to 
the battery if you're going to run a 12SI.  I cooked my 10ga wire at one
point.   They make conversions to convert a 12SI to a 120 amp alternator 
if you *REALLY* need the juice.   Of course, just be careful when doing *ANY*
kind of wiring work in your car.  Use common sense; don't splice the BAT   
wire with lousy crimp connectors - SOLDER THEM!   Dirty connections make 
heat - CLEAN THEM.   I've seen really nice cars trashed with bad wiring work,
or worse - wiring fires.   <Steping off soapbox now>

OTHER:

    Keep in mind I'm the same guy does electronic ignition conversions by 
using the points to trigger a Mopar spark box.   Sacrilidge?  ;^>    Next
thing to figure out is how to make the new CS-series GM alternators work
on these cars.   

    Anyone need a schematic for the GM hot-starter-solenoid fix?   


More (really bad) Ascii Art:
                                   (WHITE wire)
           |------------------- To R terminal of old alternator harness
           |    |-------------- To F terminal of old alternator harness
      - - -|- - |- - -             (BLUE or GREEN wire)
    -      *    *      -
  -        1    2        -      Back view of 10/12SI
 -   *                    -
  -   BAT --------------------- Same connection as old alternator
    -                   -
      - - - - - - - - -
  
    10/12SI GM Alternator

- --> Bob Valentine
- --> ravalent@liii.com
- --> '71 Olds Cutlass Convertible 350/T400/2.78 Posi (work in progress)
- --> '88 Plymouth Grand Fury 318/TF727/3.23 Posi (ex highway patrol car)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 05:56:59 -0300
Subject: New Wing! 

Hey all, I finally got my wing on (and pic's developed) for the '81.  It's
from an '82 Firebird.  Looks good, not quite perfect.  The back is really
close, but the front of it angles inward (it isn't as wide as the rear)  I
like it though.  Major improvement over nothing.  Lot easier to find, also.
One big problem I had was mounting, though.  The pedastals were not tall
enough, so I had to put a spacer in there (to keep the trunk from breaking
it in half when the motor pulls it down)  Also that ~heavy~ chunk of
fiberglass plays hell with the little struts that ~allegedly~ hold up the
trunk.  I'm not sure how the spring type ones would hold up (sorry, I think
I hear the pun police coming now!)
     Anyway, I've got a couple pic's on my page (one on the cover, and the
next on the Rockit page (Through "mycars")
     Check 'em out, etc.
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 455
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 05:56:51 -0300
Subject: Re: The heat is on 

>To: "McClanahan, Doug" <mcclan@WSDOT.WA.GOV>
>From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
>Subject: Re: The heat is on
>
>>
>>I can't cant see how what you have said can be true.
>               < S N I P >
>>Let me know if I misunderstood what you were saying - or I will wander the 
>>earth in a confused state mumbling phrases like "Olds, power, !@$#$%Ch*vy, 
>>heat loss, K-mart, yep, definitely K-mart".
>>
>>Doug
>
>>
>> The fast coolant flow can only extract heat from a small depth (just the 
>>contact surfaces...)  whereas if it is slow, it can extract the heat from 
>>deeper in the metal, and the heat can be dissapated further into the 
>>coolant.
>
>     This is just the theory and philosophy that has been drilled into my
head at school, and I have found it to be very understandable.  I've never
taken any steps to try to disprove it or anything -- they also said that
sand wouldn't be good to put in oil, I took their word at that too :)
Supposedly, there have been cases of overheating caused by thermostat being
gone and coolant flow too high.  Many racers run w/o the T-Stats, but have a
restriction there to slow things down.  I've never dealt directly with any
of it, nor had any reason to, so I can't argue the point ~too~ much.  Both
sides seem to have their technical/scientific merits, so hell, I don't know.
I've never heard about the tests with the cylinder (I guess I don't get out
that much! -- Or maybe I do?...)  It's hard to say how the pipe compares to
an engine, between coolant differences, scale buildup, surface texture
(smooth vs. cavernous) vibration (grasping here, I admit) etc.  Not trying
to demerit their findings, but I don't know that I'd take it as gospel.  I
don't know, probably doesn't matter much.  How did this all start, anyway?
Must have come from one of the 500&some odd messages I haven't been able to
get to yet!  Anyway, for what it's worth, it's just how I've been trained,
so I voice the theories.  Who knows?  Fill it with cement and be done with
it!  (Just don't try that "across the desert w/o water" test, cuz it
probably wouldn't pass!  Have fun....    :}
>
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 455
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 07:02:36 -0300
Subject: Re: Firewall Holes?

On Wed, 22 May 1996, Dan Williams wrote:
>      You are not taking about the hole for the a/c wiring are you?  That enters 
> the firewall at that point, but probably lower than what you are describing.  If 
> nobody has figured it out by this weekend, I'll go look for this on my 68.  As 
> long as the weather holds up, I'm going to take it out for the first time here.  
> Wish me luck on that one.

Can't say re. the a/c - mine doesn't have it. Still wondering.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 09:40:46 -0300
Subject: Re: spark timing / TVS switches/71 442 W-30

It's me again. Been out for two days, over two hundred new messages! Chris,
funny you should mention the TVS because I posted a question on my new one 
earlier. The new switch has a 1, D , 2 molded into the side of it next to each
port. I assumed the D meant distributor, the 1 initial vac source, and the 2 secondary vac source. The trouble is that these hose routings do not match my 
service manual so it could indeed be hooked up wrong. Will be playing with it 
this weekend.

	
Anybody on here get Classic Auto Restorer mag? This month's cover car is a 
red 71 442 W-30 ragtop. Decent enough write up on it inside. Also in the same
issue is a very good article on Alternators/Generators and how to switch them
out. Would suggest that you guys pick up this issue.



          ___              ___        _________
         /   |            /   |      /         \
        /    |           /    |     |   ___    |
       /     |          /     |     |__|   |   |
      /      |         /      |           /   /   
     /       |        /       |          /   /   
    /   /|   |       /   /|   |         /   /
   /   /_|   |__    /   /_|   |__      /   /
  |             |  |             |    /   /
  |______     __|  |______     __|   /   /_____
         |   |            |   |     |          |      Pat Clark
         |___|            |___|     |__________|       69 442
						      400/400

   "Just your average 300+hp garage hogging, gas sucking, money pit"

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:27:47 -0300
Subject: Re: Metallic Pads, Was: Time to Dump?

> About the brakes:  Fords are having trouble with the metallic brake 
> pads and do best with the composition types because they are warping
> the rotors all over the place from the heat of the metallic ones.  

I'm forwarding this to the Ford(natics) list.  I let you know if they 
take time out from their constant Mustang arguments to reply.

BTW: Interesting to note that they are also having a heated :) discussion 
on coolant vs water.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:31:19 -0300
Subject: Re: The heat is on

Robert Lawrence wrote:
> 
> Nope.  I don't buy it.  The faster the water moves through the block 
> the better it will cool.  Unfortunately, the faster the water moves 
> through the radiator, the less it will cool.  It's convection.

Uh, before I get confused, isn't the transfer of heat by contact 
CONDUCTION and while convection is radiated heat?


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:13:32 -0300
Subject: Re: Q's

Peg O'Connor wrote:
> 
> Practically, what are the differences?  Is an alternator better because
> it's more stable?

I going on some very old memory here:

Sort of, yes.  As someone pointed out (Chris?), a generator is the same 
device as a DC motor such as might be used in a model train or slotcar.  
As you know, when you increase the voltage to those toys, they go faster. 

The opposite is true when the device is used as a generator. The voltage 
output from a generator is proportional to how fast it turns; that is, 
the faster it goes, the more voltage it puts out.  They are therfore more 
difficult to regulate.  Low voltage when turning slow, high voltage when 
turning fast.

Altenators are very different critters.  They put out alternating current 
(AC), whose frequency (cycles per second) increases with speed while the 
voltage stays more constant (as compared to a generator).  Since the AC 
is converted to direct current (DC) anyway by the diodes, the frequency 
shifting is unimportant.  The resulting output IS more stable than a 
generator and is therefore easier to regulate and provides better juice 
for the more modern electronics we use in our cars today.

BTW, there is no direct relationship between the use of a "vibrator" type 
of regulator commonly used with generators and the electronic regulators 
used with alternators.  Both types do the same job, the electronic one 
just does it better and it since appeared in cars around the same time as 
the altenator, it is often connected (pun intended) with it.

ALSO, the term "vibrator" when used with a regulator is incorrect.  The 
electro-mechanical regulator used coils (solenoids) to open and close 
points (contacts) to switch the voltage up and down to regulate it (in 
somewhat "chunky" steps).  It should never actually vibrate.  If if does, 
something be bad wrong.

The electronic regulator is a continuous type of regulator so it's output 
is far more stable (doesn't have the "chunky" steps).


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 11:46:03 -0300
Subject: Type O Gears (was: What does 'corporate' mean?) 

It's my understanding that "O" type gears are available from one of 
the major aftermarket suppliers. 

        One of the Olds restoration parts suppliers (I think it's 
        Supercars Unlimited..."442 is all we do" or Brothers 
        Automotive) has Type O gears sets in it's catalog.
        
        Joe Padavano
        jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
        
        66 442
        68 W-30
        69 H/O
        70 W-30

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 05:56:47 -0300
Subject: Re: Warped rotors and metallic pads

C. K. Yee wrote:
> 
> > About the brakes:  Fords are having trouble with the metallic brake pads
> > and do best with the composition types because they are warping the
> > rotors all over the place from the heat of the metallic ones.  Another
> 
> Since I'm still in a thermodynamic mood, I thought about this brake
> problem.  Regardless of the type of pad, shouldn't the amount of heat
> generated from braking be dependent on the initial speed and mass of
> the vehicle?  I guess that in this analysis, you'd have to disregard
> the differences in maximum stopping power between different brake
> pad materials, but assume that all braking is moderate.  Brakes convert
> kinetic energy (movement of car) to heat.  If metallic pads do indeed
> heat up more, then their maximum braking potential is higher.  But do
> most people use their brakes near their maximum capacity all the time?
> 
> A neighbour and a friend both have identical BMW 320's (1993 & 1995).
> The 1993 model, now at 30,000 miles, is in need of new front rotors.
> This car has only seen relatively light braking, as it is his mother's
> car.  On the other hand, my neighbour's '95 has 11,000 miles, is now
> in need of new pads! (both cars have the original metallic pads)  This
> car is driven to the limit regularly, yet there are no signs of
> rotor warpage.  My explanation is that rotors on the 30,000 mile
> car are worn much thinner due to the higher mileage, and they
> are more susceptible to warping.  Any other ideas?
> 
> Kevin Wong
> 
> P.S.  Why would anyone want to use metallic pads?  Have you
>       seen the way they chew up rotors?

I should have said that the metallic pads retain the heat more and pass 
it along to the rotor.  They also do stop better - convert more forward 
energy to heat. 

 A particularly diasterous problem is heating up the rotors and then 
going through a cold water puddle with the result of suddenly cooling 
rotors. Newewr thin rotors don't handle that well.

Bill Culp

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 11:58:07 -0300
Subject: His/Hers Shifters 

As far as I understand, a His/Her Shifter is a Hurst Dual Gate with a key   
lock
to keep the "Wife" from screwing up the transmission by keeping it in   
"automatic".
This was actually an advertised feature on the '69 Hurst Olds.
          
          The original aftermarket Dual Gate had the key lock, hence 
          the His and Hers name.  The factory installed units and 
          later aftermarket units did not have the lock.  My 69 H/O 
          does not have the lock, although you are correct, the ads 
          did tout the his/hers feature.  Seriously politically 
          incorrect!
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30
          
          
          
          

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 12:33:48 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: V8 

          OK, here we go again.  The aluminum engine in question is 
          the BOP 215 from 61-63.  The tooling and manufacturing 
          rights to the motor were sold to British Leyland in the 
          mid-60s and it had evolved into the 3.5, 3.9, and 4.2 liter 
          engines in various British cars (Land Rover, Rover 3500, 
          TVR, TR8, etc.)  The engine is a _direct_ fit in the MG, as 
          it was offered in the early 70s as the MGC (ie, next after 
          the MGB).  The full-up engine (carb-to-oil pan) weighs about 
          305 lbs.  I had one installed in a 72 Vega sedan delivery.  
          Aftermarket parts are still available, and several vendors 
          specialize in these motors (kits to enlarge them to 5.0 
          liters, trans adapters, motor swap kits - like into and 
          early RX-7).  The basic block was fitted with DOHC 4-valve 
          heads and turned into an F1 racing engine by Repco of 
          Australia in the early 60s.  Mickey Thompson also ran one at 
          Indy in the early 60s.

------------------------------

From: Travis L McWaters <travism@utdallas.edu> 
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 12:26:17 -0300
Subject: Re:  TVS switches 

> What temperature does an Olds TVS switch at?

According to the books, the one my '69 Olds 98 is set to go off at 225 deg F.    
YMMV

- -- Travis

------------------------------

From: Travis L McWaters <travism@utdallas.edu> 
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 12:38:19 -0300
Subject: Re: Heater water valve 

> Well, when the 68 98's heater control valve pooped out, they sold Angela 
> a nice new one- which was engineered bass-ackwards. I.e., when vacuum was 
> applied, it shut off [or vice-versa- whatever- it was backwards of the way 
> it was supposed to be...
 
> Actually, the operation of that valve sounds correct.  

I had some fun and games with this on my '69 98.  I'm still not exactly sure
what the "right" way is.  The valve I have in there now is open with no vacuum
and closes when vacuum is applied.  It doesn't have any vacuum lines attached
to it at present, but I think I see where the correct line is that someone has
plugged with a screw.  

Question 1 - short of taking the dash apart and tracing the line back to 
             a source, is there a good way to find out if this is the right
             line to attach to the valve?

Question 2 - Assuming that this is the right line, will it do the right thing?
             i.e. open and close the valve at the right times.  
Part 2 of the same quesiton - what is the right thing anyway?  Should it
             only apply vacuum when the AC is on, or should it usually 
             apply vacuum and only not do so when I turn on the heater?

- -- Travis

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:08:38 -0300
Subject: misc stuff

To the person with the sticking throttle, which leads to emergency braking,
which leads to warped rotors... I know in the ruch of adrenaline, it's easy to
forget the basics & freak out, I've done it myself... but how about just
turning off the ignition when the throttle sticks, and gently braking to a
stop... Engine out of control- turn it off...  -Chris-

>      (2) Rear tail light bezels (mine are in multiple pieces)
>      (1) Reverse light lens (clear glass, not plastic)
>      (1) Rear tail light lens (red)
>      Peter G. Teubel
>      peter_teubel@hanks.com
>      '51 98

I presume you are aware of Hemmings Motor News... you didn't say what routes
you have tried already... Local big swap meets would be your next best bet,
and/or the National OCA meet. Where is it this year? Down south somewheres.
- -Chris-

> >broken-down into 2 primary parts; Small Block, & Big block.  It covered in
> >great detail how best to build your engine, and where to get the necessary
> >parts (ie; Mondello, Dave Smith, Batten etc.).

Sounds like a weak imitation of our standard-setting FAQ... :-)

> Right before I moved, I was trying to get 2 books.  One was Mondello's
> Olds book and the other was Cars & Parts Oldsmobile by the number (or
> something similar).  I think the Mondello book is out.  Does anybody
> have either one of these books?  If so, any comments?

OK, who's going to be the first kid on the block with Mondello's Tech Ref? I
have the book _442 by the Numbers_ from SuperCars, Unltd.... very fine
reference, the best available *easily* for telling what parts is what by visual
inspection [casting numbers], BUT it only covers 442 applications, and then
only '64-oh, '72 or so... Not gonna find your "S" xst manifold listed in there!
- -Chris-

> From: "Tom Waldron" <tomw@harborside.teleres.com>
> Subject: Check engine light
>  I have an '84 Hurst Olds with a 307 and about 105k miles. The check
>  engine light comes on intermittently, though it stays on until I shut
> off  the engine. The car runs great, fluid levels are ok. Any ideas?

Well, you might check the engine... is it stil there? Yep... Yank it out,
replace it with a nice 403 small block with 7a heads, 308 degree cam, biggest
radiator that'll fit, 7-blade fan, there ya go... Oh, if that pesky light STILL
stays on... remove the bulb.  :)  -Chris-

> Actually, my linkage problem is a little different. It only happens when =
> I have to floor it to get into/out of traffic. The pedal is on the floor =
> and not coming up. I have to lay on the brakes, pull over, and shut the =
> car off, go under the hood and release the linkage from its open =
> position. That is why I think it is a busted motor mount... When the =

Easy check: watch the engine as someone brake-torks the engine. I have done
this... with bad/no motor mount, the engine lifts right on up on the LH side...
kinda neat, until the fan hits the shroud...

> engine torques up that fast and lifts, I think the elbow of the linkage =
> gets caught on the upside of a small deppression on top of the manifold. =
> The block pushes up hard on that elbow driving it back towards the fire =
> wall so hard it sticks open. I have greased it up, but I am still going =
> to get it checked. I also pulled out a pant load of acorns, which I =
> thought was the original problem, but it happened again after I cleaned =
> them all out.

Ah, geeeez, you took out the acorns?! First t'stats, now the acorns, what next?
Those acorns were obviously there to prevent throttle stickage! :) -Chris-

> My rear bumper on my 86 cutlass supreme coupe has some small surface rust. Is
it less expensive to re-chrome or just replace it?

Well, call your dealer & boneyard & bumper plating facility, and get your local
prices... generally speaking, if you care about the car, buy NOS if at all
possible. If it's just a driver, then any old used bumper will do. If it's a
beater, then any old 2x8 will do... as exemplified by about 90% of the
late-70's Cutlasses in Lansing... -Chris-

>      I deleted the previous messages in this thread, but people were
>      talking about the timing chain and gears on the 307 motor that should
>      be replaced at 70k or so.

**ANY** Olds timing chain with over oh, 80K miles...

>      and mentioned the fiber cam gear wearing out or the chain stretching.

Precisely correct. Then, the "fiber" or nylon pcs of tooth fall off, go clog up
the oil pump. Since the oil pan 'has to' come off to change the timing chain
anyhow... clean out the inlet screen as well at that time...  -Chris-

> Well, the nylon teeth on the top gear, on which the chain rides, are
> undoubtedly gone by now. Underneath, them, though, are steel teeth, which are
> much shorter, but will do the job for a while. The timing will jump around,

The sprockets I have seen, original ones with plastic teeth, are aluminum
cores. Not very long-lived with a steel chain... besides, when the plastic is
gone, you gotta figure the cam & thus spark timing is retarded by almost 1/2
tooth, or about 10 degrees of crank rotation... dog-performance... -Chris-

> From: John D Bartusek <bart@cmf.nrl.navy.mil>
> going a while longer and have some general questions:
>
> '71 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (350 V8 2barrel) Blue exterior paint-White top
>     This car is great even though it's a total Brady-mobile!
> '69 Cutlass Holiday Coupe (350 V8 2 barrel)
>     This one has 120K miles on it runs much stronger than  the
>     convertible above.  Mechanically everything works well and it just

Something to do with the valves all working, and the 9.0 compression vs. the
8.0 compression of the '71 motor....

>     needs some bodywork and paint.  I really like it in its rough
>     form and don't really want to put a lot of $$ in this one.
>
> Q1:    Is there any maintainance besides oil changes I  should be
>     handling to keep the engine running for a long time.  Should
>     the timing chain be replaced?

Well... Yes, both timing sets are very old and deserve to be replaced. Your
main problem here, though, is that your best engine is in the lamest car...
  I recommend you 1- refresh both engines, or at least timing chains on both
and valve job on the '71 motor... by 'refresh' I mean tear down, wash, treat to
new bearings, rings, ridge ream, new oil pump maybe, valve job, spicier cam,
new lifters, etc.
  2- The pistons in the '69 motor offer better compression. Use them, or the
whole '69 motor, in the '71 car... most fun engine in most fun car. At refresh
time, budget will determine gear changes, cam selection, intake setup, etc. If
you do go 4V intake, get a non-68/9 intake & carb- get one with the round black
choke coil mounted ON the carb.
  3- Use the low-compression pistons/ motor in the 69, which you don't care to
'restore' at this time... can skimp by using old cam even if necessary...

Approx. Costs per engine:
$60   gasket set
$50   rings
$30   timing set
$85   all bearings
$100  valve job
$30   oil pump
$35   lifters
$100  cam

For the heads, yeah, just take them to the machine shop, and tell them to do a
'simple, lo-budget' valve job. They always try to sell you extra services like
a resurfacing, etc. Resurfacing is NECESSARY only if warpage exceeds oh, 0.006"
[six thousandths inch] or so... So, if they talk you into cutting the heads,
then go for the max cut they do for that charge... up to about 0.050" ["fifty
thousandths"] - that'll recover some of the compression you'll lose by using
the thicker head gaskets supplied today.
  Typical valve job is about $100, plus $10 per valve that needs replacing,
plus about $10 per guide that's worn out, plus about $15 per seat that needs
replacing.... plus about $40 for surfacing that you may or may not need... Ask
for a price list up front, and be sure they know to get an OK before going
beyond the basic valve job... of you can find yourself looking at a $300 bill
just for the heads...

> Q2:    This car has non-power assisted 4-wheel drum brakes which work
>     OK but not great. Actually they're kinda lame.  Is there any
>     way to improve the brakes without spending a fortune?

No. Live with 'em, or change to disks from similar GM A-body. Not terribly
cheap. For this car, from what you say, not worth the effort...

> Q3:    Should I consider upgrading to a 4 barrel intake and carb?
>     Power is not bad currently with the 2 barrel but if the improvement
>     was significant for not too much $$ and I could do it myself, I might
>     be interested.

You cannot beat the instant throttle response of a good Olds 2V setup....
depends on what rear gears you end up with, but if the gears are the same, keep
the 2V setup, I say...

> Q4:    Both cars have very tall gears in the rear end.  What is
>     involved in changing the gears to something offering more
>     performance.  I believe the '69 has 2.73 gears and I'm not sure about
>     the '71 but it may be the same.  Also, is it easier/cheaper
>     just to find a-whole-nuther rear axle with better gears?
>     John Bartusek

Find out for sure your gear ratio. This is important. Count turns if necessary,
of find that stamped code on the front of the RH axle tube... Yes, it is almost
always easier/ cheaper to swap out the whole rear end than to change gears.
- -Chris-

> You might want to check your cam.  Sometimes the lobes get rounded
> down or just plain rounded off (!!!).  I've actually seem a cam that

Pretty much a Chevy phenomenon... unless of course you run the engine with no
oil... and turn the rods blue... Heh. I have NEVER seen and Olds wipe
the lobe off the cam before.  -Chris-

> >You have to be careful when thoughts of trading your rwd for a fwd begin to
> >creep into your mind... first its a big muscle car with rwd, then you decide
> >a straight 6 with front wheel drive is ok, then you fall right into the fwd
> >4cyl family VANS... and then you die. :)

You CAN use a real car for a family car.. When our 76 Regal died, I pressed the
68 W-30 'parts car' into service as the camily car... dragged an old 2.73
12-bolt posi out of the mud out at the farm- I tried to sell that diff. for $20
about 10 yrs. ago.. not ONE call... go figure. Engine out of the convertible
[incorrect engine anyhow...]. For a while there I still had the 3.90 gears in
it, but 3200 rpm at hiway speeds makes for a noisy family car.... -Chris-

> was new and GM's idea of HD cooling was a 3 core radiator.  A 4-core
> radiator, a fan shroud with the largest fan that will fit and a thermostat
> solved all problems forever.  The same approach has served me well for all
> the cars I've owned and built.

I concur. Get a nice Toro 19" 7-bladed fan, drive it via a thermo-sensitive
clutch... use the correct shroud, and the biggest radiator you can get. Esp. if
replacing a 260 with a 403 :)  -Chris-

> Why?  Well it turns out that my choke tube is periodically filling up with
> gunk and keeping air from passing through to warm up...whatever its supposed
> to warm up :-)  They dont know why its doing it, but they told me to bring
> it back whenever it happens, and they'll blow the gunk out.  Ive been back 3
> times, I have to bring it in again because its happening again.  It sounds
> like a pain, but I hope to permanently fix the problem when I get my engine
> rebuilt.  Comments????
> Chris Pearson      Pearson.11@osu.edu

Uh, find out where this 'gunk' is getting in at, fix it. Supposed to draw clean
air in from the carb air horn, right? Is the U-tube that mounts in the intake
broken, allowing xst gasses in? Yank it out & inspect it....
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #183
********************************

