
oldsmobile-digest           Monday, 8 April 1996        Volume 01 : Number 142


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jsmith@radware.net (James Smith)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:15:00 -0300
Subject: Heads

Does any one know the difference in the casting # 5, #6, and #7? I have =
also seen some heads being call 5a and 7a is this just another name or =
are thay different heads? if thay are the same then where do you get the =
(a) from.

	Thanks
		James Smith
		jsmith@radware.net

------------------------------

From: John Schmich <schmich@AZStarNet.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:23:11 -0300
Subject: Re: G-body stuff 

At 09:32 PM 4/7/96 -0300, you wrote:
>--Chris wrote:
>>Hurst/442 Chrome wheels, 4 ea. 15", w/tires. Complete, must sell, $475/best
>>517-331-7981
>
>I called this guy.  His wife, apparently, had forgotten to say 442-STYLE
>wheels, and they're only 14s.  "Well, the paper does make mistakes
>sometimes..."  I guess.  The wheels, according to him, are in cherry shape
>(painted black in the middles), and the tires are about half gone.  Anyone
>interested, let me know.
>
>For those interested, I got my '85 442 out to look at the head numbers, and
>they are 5As(the older style).  Unless GM changed in the middle of the model
>year, its safe to say that the 7As with the different cam weren't around
>'till '86.
>
Maybe only the 85 442s came with 5A heads because my brother, Brodie's 85
Salon has 7A heads.  Changing halfway through the year is the only thing I
can think of.  Once we take apart my brothers 85 motor, we'll see whats in
it according to cam and lifters.  After we took out my 86 motor w/ 7A heads,
we noticed that the exhaust ports are oval.  On the 5A heads, the exhaust
ports are rectangular.  This is probably the reason why headers aren't made
for the 7As.  Dan or anyone else with an 85 want to see what they got.  

Brandon
86 Salon
Brodie
85 Salon

>I got something in the mail from Lauren Engineering-they are having one of
>their semi-annual Cutlass parts sales until the end of April.  All the
>Cutlass stuff is 20% off.  For instance, H/O duplicate rear wing spoiler,
>with shipping costs, < $210.  Oh, and they said something about working on a
>Hurst shifter plate. Now, if they're making a repro Lightning Rod, that'd be
>marvelous, but I'm not clear on what a shifter PLATE is.  Anybody?  For the
>fellow asking about what a Lightning Rod is, it's a three-stick gizmo setup
>that Hurst put in the '83 and '84 Hurst/Olds.  Its an automatic shifter
>console, but the first two gears have their own stick, so you can't miss a
>shift.  Tom Lentz has a good picture of one on Bryceman's Olds page, go to:
>
>http://www.cjnetworks.com/olds/lentz.html
>
>Later,
>
>__________________________________________________________________________
>Shawn M. Twomey     |  "No!  Try NOT!  Do, or do not.  There is no try."
>stwom@ctp.com       |  -Yoda
>__________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: John Schmich <schmich@AZStarNet.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 22:40:37 -0300
Subject: olds 307 stuff 

>Hi,
>    I just got done reading your post to the olds mailing list.  I too have
>a 307 (in a 86 cutlass supreme) and I would be interested in hearing the
>details of your re-build.  I am going to get my engine rebuilt this summer
>and I want to know what other people have done.  It sounds like you went for
>the hi-power route.  That would be a lot of fun ;-), but I want to use mine
>as a daily driver with decent mpg.
>     Thanks,
>            Chris
>
Hey Chris,

     Glad to hear from you.  BTW, I see that your address is from Ohio State
Universtiy, and I'm originally from Toledo.  
     On to the 307 rebuild:
     First, I went to a junk yard and bought an 81-84 307 block. (This has
been discussed a lot so if you want more details just e-mail me direct.)
     Next, we cleaned it up and we bored it .030 over.  Punching it out to
about a 312 cid.  I bought a rebuild kit through a company in which my
brother's auto shop teacher dealt with.  It included Silv-o-lite pistons,
Moly rings, new Crankshaft, new Meilling oil pump and all the other needs,
gaskets, etc.
     I had the heads surfaced, and that was the only service on the block we
did not complete ourselves.
     Some of the major parts I bought for it was the Edelbrock performer
intake manifold #3711.  Competion Cams 268 hydraulic camshaft.  A Hughes
2500 stall torque convertor.  Hedman Headers, (these were somewhat of a pain
so I can load you down with the details seperatly.)  A new H/O fuel pump.  A
new TRW water pump, and many other minor things.
     I had the radiator, alternator, and starter professionally rebuilt.
The carb will be next soon.
     The engine just got done about two weeks ago and my father(John),
brother and I just finished putting the engine in the car last Thursday.  We
started it up on Saturday and boy did it sound sweet with those open headers!!  
     There is only one problem that needs to be fixed.  It seems that we
have way to much pressure (somehow,someway) because we are getting small oil
leaks around the oil filter and the rear of the engine.  Enough pressure to
shoot oil out the top of the dipstick tube.  My guage dosen't show high oil
pressure and we even bought a new guage to test the oil pressure from inside
the engine bay.   (And no we did not put 8 quarts of oil in :) 
     Its not the oil filter gasket ring because I've changed the filter
twice hoping the first didn't work.  Could it be the filter, for I had to
switch to a smaller filter (FRAM PH3506) because of the new headers would
allow room for the stock oil filter.
     We're wondering if the rear main seal hasn't sealed up yet.  
     Were taking into the shop on Monday, but any information about this
problem would be appreciated.
     Other than that, it seems to be running great!  And I'll keep you guys
posted as things arise.  If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.  

Brandon
86 Salon
Brodie
85 Salon

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:02:13 -0300
Subject: Re: GM Page 

In a message dated 96-04-07 11:31:35 EDT, you write:

>        Does anyone know why OLDSMOBILE is NOT represented on the GM home
>page.  I was on there earlier today and found C*evrolete, Pontiac, Buick,
>Geo, Saturn, GCM Truck, etc.... but no OLDSMOBILE information.
>
>        Has GM forgotten about us or are we being discriminated against?

Tried Oldses homepage @ www.gm...  It's OK.  Oldsmobile has their own site on
AOL that is much better.  Not only do they have product info, they also have
bulletin boards dedicated to each Olds model as well as a Classic Oldsmobiles
and a swap shop.  You can even send E-mail directly to Olds.  For AOL users,
GO Oldsmobile.

Paul

------------------------------

From: conrad <rad19@icon.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 23:55:47 -0300
Subject: Re: Toro Colors

Mike Frederick wrote:
> 
> Conrad:
> 
> Just checked my 66.  The block, heads, air-cleaner, etc. are all the
> Slate Blue (almost a metallic powder blue) as Gregg Ledlam had said.
> However, I can find no evidence whatsoever of any finish applied to the
> torque converter housing or the transmission housing.  This car is
> very original having only an amature restoration about eight years ago
> (not me!). Since I have just about every scrap of paper associated with
> this car (window sticker, dash tags, service records, etc.) I have no
> reason to believe that the tranny was ever pulled.
> 
> Happy Toroing...
> 
> The 66 Toro and Mike
> 
> --
> Michael R. Frederick, CEO
> Edison3, Incorporated
> Tampa, Florida
> (813) 210-8649


Thanks Mike.  I appreciate the help on that.  I guess that "HOTROD" mag from '66 just 
had all the different colors shown for effect.  Thanks again, Conrad

------------------------------

From: "Peg O'Connor" <peg@grove.ufl.EDU>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 01:31:00 -0300
Subject: Re: Getting wet

> A leaking evaporator should not be evident inside a car.

You sound like you've had personal experiences with this!  Tell me, then, 
why is was that when the evap core was redone, the water damage 
immediately stopped?  It was very evident inside that *something* was 
going wrong, and it stopped after the fix, so . . . . coincidence?

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 02:46:38 -0300
Subject: Re: 1966 & 1967 Toronados 

Gregg, 

Now you are making ME blush!  LOL  Sounds like a mutual admiration society!

Your no slouch yourself pal! 

Keep up the good work!

Greg

------------------------------

From: "C. K. Yee" <yu135008@yorku.ca>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 04:48:25 -0300
Subject: Re: Getting wet

> > A leaking evaporator should not be evident inside a car.
> 
> You sound like you've had personal experiences with this!  Tell me, then, 
> why is was that when the evap core was redone, the water damage 
> immediately stopped?  It was very evident inside that *something* was 
> going wrong, and it stopped after the fix, so . . . . coincidence?

Fortunately, none of my cars has ever had a leaking evaporator,
so my deduction of the outcome of a leaking evaporator comes
from knowledge of the amount of oil usually present in this core,
and the physical state of released R-12.  In cars where the 
heater and evaporator cores are serviced via an underhood
removable cover, it is possible that a chronic water leak around
this cover was inadvertently repaired during the evaporator core
replacement.  Another possibility is that the orifice to permit
drainage of condensate during A/C operation was plugged, allowing
water to accumulate and drain back into the car.  Perhaps during 
the repair, some debris was cleared which then freed up the hole.
I'd guess that if the water leak was irrespective of A/C
operation, then the former scenario would be the more plausible
explanation!
 
Kevin

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:20:21 -0300
Subject: Re: TH 400 Rebuild Questions & Tools 

"I've also never used a kit from B&M or anyone else. ...<<SNIP>>...  If there 
is interest I could upload the TH400 only information from the '69 edition of 
these performance modification instructions.  They apply to _any_ TH400 of the 
era.
 I'm sure you'll let me know if your interested."
          
          Yes, I'm very interested.  Either post here or if possible, 
          send to me directly.  If it's easier, I could give you a fax 
          number or I'll pay for postage.  (OK, OK, I haven't yet 
          gotten completely into the 90's...Give me a break...I drive 
          a 26 year old car as a daily driver!)
          
          Also, I reccommended the B&M kit because the instructions 
          were very detailed and very well illustrated.  I had never 
          rebuilt an automatic before and had no problems whatsoever.  
          The kit was also very complete and the tranny worked great 
          from the first moment.
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:30:24 -0300
Subject: 403 note 

          
          Didn't 403s also come in the 1977 442?  I seem to recall 
          adds in Hot Rod and Car Craft at the time.
          
          BTW, in the 307 vs 350 vs 403 vs 455 debate,  there is no 
          substitute for cubic inches...period!  The difference 
          between the weight of a 455 and the weight of a small block 
          is negligible.  Go for the aluminum intake and headers and 
          you've already made up the difference.  Keep in mind that 
          we're talking about 2-3% of the weight of the car.  The 
          G-body types that have trouble fitting in a big block 
          shouldn't even have to think twice...go for the 403, paint 
          it corporate blue, and tell the smog station inspector it's 
          a 307 (tell the competition it's a 260!).
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 10:19:46 -0300
Subject: Re: Wanted: 75 D88 part

>> Hi.  When you get a chance, could you please advise on how to get the
>> following part for a 1975 convertible Olds Delta 88:
>>
>> Narton 1748580 'ABCD Terminal'
>>
>> This part mounted on the firewall and controlled the inside lighting and
>> the lighting for the doorhandles.
>> Thanks.  I'm struggling on locating this thing.
>> Jim
>
>I told him to try Hemming's... and that I'd check around if I knew what the
>heck he was referring to.

If all this is is a time-delay relay, which by the description of the
terminals and operation is what I'd say it is, then it may well still
be listed by GM and most likely would have been used in _any_ model
having an illuminated-entry feature. A competent GM parts guy who knows
how to use his computer ought to be able to find out something about it.

Alternatively, is the old one completely trashed? Sometimes it can be
repaired if, for example, the points are sticking together and draining
the battery; a nail file can work wonders.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 10:27:26 -0300
Subject: Re: Getting wet 

>> A leaking evaporator should not be evident inside a car.
>
>You sound like you've had personal experiences with this!  Tell me, then, 
>why is was that when the evap core was redone, the water damage 
>immediately stopped?  It was very evident inside that *something* was 
>going wrong, and it stopped after the fix, so . . . . coincidence?

No, most likely a plugged condensor drain that was fixed when they removed
the old evaporator core and cleaned out the debris -- dead leaves and so
on -- that was in there at the same time.

This question pops up routinely in the newspaper car advice columns later
in the spring after the weather improves and people have been using their
air conditioners for about a month or so, and the clogged-drain ones start
to become obvious...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 10:24:39 -0300
Subject: Re: Toro Colors 

>I can find no evidence whatsoever of any finish applied to the 
>torque converter housing or the transmission housing.

Notwithstanding any production differences between Toronados and
Everything Else, this would agree with what Cars & Parts told someone
recently about the transmission of his, um, '66 Ch*vy, I think it was.
He was saying that the rebuild shop had offered to "coat" or paint his 
trans and he had declined either until he could find out which would be 
more accurate as original, but the trans had already started to rust.
Their response was that the originals were never painted and did indeed
simply rust in normal use.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Edison 3 <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 10:50:57 -0300
Subject: [none]



------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:46:58 -0300
Subject: Re: 403 note

On Mon, 8 Apr 1996 JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com wrote:
>           G-body types that have trouble fitting in a big block 
>           shouldn't even have to think twice...go for the 403, paint 
>           it corporate blue, and tell the smog station inspector it's 
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>           a 307 (tell the competition it's a 260!).

I noticed when I was test driving that '85 Delta a few weeks back that 
the 307 was painted black. What a strange color to paint an engine! 
Looked like *flat* black to boot. I assume this was factory? Seems like 
if you wanted to make it look as unattractive as possible that's the 
color you'd pick.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 01:00:46 -0300
Subject: Re: So Near and Yet So Far... 

BobH592058@aol.com wrote:

> Besides, what wise man said "Do the the car the way you like unless 
> it's a museum candidate".  All this "correct" stuff is so much bull. 

Heard that!  I may be getting to be a museum candidate but my Toro is for 
fun.  While I can respect a totally "correct" restoration, some of those 
mild-to-wild cars remind me what it was like back then.

I'm thinking of putting flames on it.  Whatcha think?

FLAMES, FLAMES, FLAMES...

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:12:30 -0300
Subject: Re: TH 400 Rebuild Questions & Tools 

Re the B&M kits and the statement I've never used one:

It was not meant to put down the B&M or any other "kit".  They are great but
the info from the factory circa 1970 is essentially free if implemented
during a rebuild.  I fact, you will (correctly for once) have parts left
over!  The instructions include changing or leaving out several pieces.

As soon as I have some free time (not a few days) I will post the contents of
the instructions.

Bob Handren
'67 442 W-30
'70 Cutlass SX Convert

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:55:55 -0300
Subject: A Flamed Toro!!!  

Mike:

Flames on a Toronado!  Wow, that would look absolutely fantastic.

The response at an Olds show would be fun to watch as well.  Most (not all)
Toronado and Hurst/Olds owners tend to be a little snobby.  The looks on
their faces would be worth the price of admission. You could park next to my
somewhat radical '67 W-30 ('Vette Daytona yellow, black interior, roll bar,
5-point belts, MoPar 6-pack hood scoop reversed to face the windshield and
the openings are stuffed with 6 illuminated AutoMeter gauges, coated headers,
3" exhaust with Flowmasters (makes the road rumble), 455 with NOS Fogger
system, McCreary dirt track rubber on the back, Crager S/S all around, etc.,
etc.  And I am sure as no surprise a TH400 that works very well.  

A flamed Toro would fit right in. Particularly after I talk you into a
nitrous system on a built 425. We'll need to find some appropriate rubber for
those front turners.  Did I tell you I've seen 10,000 lb GM motor homes
smoking the front tires?  It's been done..

I DEFINITELY believe in doing the car the way you want it and not what some
self-appointed expert declares is correct.  In particular the muscle car era
which is so popular lately is a period I lived through.  I NEVER saw a street
hemi car with skinny tires and dog dish hubcaps.  Nine out of 10 442's,
GTO's, SS', etc. had at least a set of headers and most had a lot more. 

Our 70 SX convertible has the Olds "wing" on the trunk lid.  Some guy walked
up to me at Old Town Kissimmee (FL near Disney) last year and announced he
restores Oldsmobiles professionally. He said I must like the looks of the
wing on the convertible.  I asked him if he was trying to tell the wing is
"incorrect" item and he said yes.  Really?  First, I have it on good
authority that you could order any d--- thing you wanted because the goal was
to sell cars not satisfy some "Correctness Expert".  Even if it wasn't
available on the assemby line, it was available over the parts counter and
the dealer sure as hell would put it on any car you want.  So is it
"incorrect" if hundreds of cars had a legitimate Olds/GM part installed on
the appropriate year car?  Original Z-28's ('67 I think) came with a set of
headers in the trunk.  Is it incorrect to install them or must they remain,
untouched, in the trunk?  If so, what a waste and it is not correct as the
cars were used and run.

One of the muscle car magazines has coined the term "restification".  It
means restoring the car as it was likely to have been back then using
headers, slapper bars, aftermarket intakes, carbs, etc.  That's the way they
really were and the way they should be remembered.

Bob Handren
'67 442 W-30 modified
'70 Cutlass SX Convertible

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 04:32:15 -0300
Subject: Re: lightning rods 

     They're a type of shifter made by Hurst.  They're standard in the 
     '83-'84 Hurst/Olds, I'm not an authority on the earlier years of 
     H/O's, so I can't say if they came with them.  There's a picture of 
     them on my car's page on Bryce's Olds Page (http://www.442.com).
     
     Basically, they're kind of a "His-n-hers" shifter.  There are three 
     shift rods in the center console.  The left one goes P R N OD D and 
     works like a normal gearshift with the exception of no L(ow).  If you 
     shift it all the way down into D, then the car is limited to third 
     gear or lower.  When in D, you can shift the middle lever toward you 
     to now limit the car to 2nd gear.  When it's down you can pull the 
     right lever to limit to first.  When accelerating you can start with 
     all the shifters toward you, then throw the right, center, then left 
     one forward while accelerating.  Kind of fun, but in reality they're 
     not much more than a gimmick, since the tranny is set to shift at 
     about 5200rpm on WOT (I have the exact specs at home.  Currently I'm 
     riding in the Hurst Olds using a laptop while my Fiance is driving).  
     An automatic tranny can generally shift more precise and faster than a 
     human.
     
     Tom L.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: lightning rods
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    4/6/96 3:25 PM


What are lightning rods?? I've never heard of them before...
     
- --
Dave
69 Cutlass Supreme
     
     

------------------------------

From: dan houlton x0710 <tc75918@hpr169.mdhc.mdc.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 08:18:13 -0400
Subject: Re: What to do with my 85 Cutlass??

> 
> As for your engine, the 307 is a died hard motor, but not one that has
> excessive potential like a 350/403/455.  350's are relatively easy to find,
> and they can be built to produce the power your looking for.  You could also
> go with a 403 (like I did), but most of them do not have solid webs like your
                                                           ^^^^^^^^^^
I'm not sure what you mean by this.  Is this something that I neccessarily
want?  What do I look for when I go to a junk yard looking for a block?

> 307.  As for the 455, that is also a good choice, but keep in mind that the
> only headers available for a BB Olds in a G body chassis have one pipe that
> goes over the frame (which slightly limits your turning radius).  As for fuel

Wasn't ever really sure if a 455 would fit easily into my car or not, but this
sounds like something I don't want to mess with.  I think I'll look for a 403
or 350.

As far as parts go (intake manifold, headers, hyd cams, roller lifters, etc.),
is it any easier to find parts for the 350 vs 403?  Is there any kind of book
that I can get that will tell me all I need to know about these engines?  
Things like what crank, pistons, rods, etc to use;  and maybe instructions on
what and what not to do during a re-build?

> 
> On to the tranny:  You can use either a 700-R4 or a 200-R4.  Both of these
> can be built to handle the power you are looking for.  Most people seem to
> think that the 200-4R is weaker, but remember that all late model GN's and
> T-Type's used this tranny so it definetly has the potential.  If you want
> more info, check out the March 95 issue of Hot Rod which has a comparision
> article.  I can also go a little more in depth on this topic if you like....
>   (I am having a 200-4R built for my 79...)

What are you expecting to pay for this?  What about just the core?  Are there
any rebuild kits by B&M or anyone else that the average mechanically minded
person could handle?  Is this gonna be mounted to your 403 and does it take
an adapter plate or do the bolt patterns match?

> 
> As for the rear, you currently have a 7.5" 10 bolt which is relatively weak
> unless you build it right.  I am confident that if you use quality gears and
> posi unit (like Auburn, etc), your rear will hold up (unless you really beat
> it...)  On the other hand, you can get a 8.5" 10 bolt from a 84 and up GN,
> T-Type, or 442.  The only problem is that they are hard to find, and
> expensive.  You could also get a rear from a Monte SS, but is only a 7.5".
                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Is this the same one I have then?  Are the axle shafts themselves any 
stronger (thicker) or does it just use stronger gears?  Is there any way to
tell from the outside if a rear end has a posi diff in it?


>  One thing to keep in mind is that GN/T-Types had 3.42's, 442's had 3.73's,
> and the Monte SS's had 3.73's.  Usually these cars came with posi's, but on
> some models it was an option....

I'd probably go with 3.73's then unless somebody can think of a reason not 
to.  

> 
> As for the lighting rods, you can still buy them from Hurst, although if I
> remember correctly, they are a little pricey.  Anyway, the odds of finding a
> wrecked 83/84 Hurst are slim to none.  I am pretty sure that they make a
> model for the 4 speed automatics too.

Yeah, I kinda figured it'd be expensive.  I think I'd be happy with a V-matic
or B&M MegaShifter.  Anybody have one of these in a Cutlass?  Did you get the
model with it's own console or the one for Firebirds/Camero without the 
console but with a shorter stick?

> 
> 
> I hope this info helped you out.  Please feel to drop me a line if you have
> any more questions.   Tom Millard OLDSPWR@aol.com  
> 

It did.  Thanks

- --Dan

------------------------------

From: dan houlton x0710 <tc75918@hpr169.mdhc.mdc.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 08:25:54 -0400
Subject: Re: What to do with my 85 Cutlass??

> 
> Isn't that 3sp the TH200C, or something like that?  A well-built 200R4, as
> long as you don't go too far over 300, should be fine.  You'll want a stall
> converter like a 442s (GNs?) or similar.

>From the numbers, I'd assume the 200C and the 200R4 are similar trannys.  Are
the bolt patterns the same then?  What about the bolt patterns for a 307/350/
403.  Are they gonna be the same?

> 
> It would cost you a lot of money to make 300HP from a 307.  I would stay
> away from the Aurora, simply because of the cost and you'll have to change
> your whole setup, whereas a 350 will bolt right in, no problem, same carb &
> everything.

Yeah, I think I've pretty much decided on a 350 or 403.

> Lauren Engineering makes the Hurst replica spoiler, front air dam, fake hood
> scoop, & a H/O stripe kit.  Not cheap, but the best I've found so far.
> 
>      Lauren Engineering
>      515 W. Valencia Dr., Ste-G
>      Fullerton, CA 92632
>      (714) 871-CARS
>      Fax (714) 578-0729
> 
> They also make other cool stuff, like 140MPH speedo decals.

Thanks.  Somebody else just posted that they're having a 20% off sale for
Cutlass pieces.  I'll have to order mine before the end of Apr.

> 
> Good luck, and keep us posted!
> 
> __________________________________________________________________________
> Shawn M. Twomey     |  "No!  Try NOT!  Do, or do not.  There is no try."
> stwom@ctp.com       |  -Yoda
> __________________________________________________________________________


- --Dan

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 13:28:35 -0300
Subject: Causes of Backfire

What causes a car to stumble and backfire at low rpm acceleration?

(Another dumb question (tm) by Pat Clark)




          ___              ___        _________
         /   |            /   |      /         \
        /    |           /    |     |   ___    |
       /     |          /     |     |__|   |   |
      /      |         /      |           /   /   
     /       |        /       |          /   /   
    /   /|   |       /   /|   |         /   /
   /   /_|   |__    /   /_|   |__      /   /
  |             |  |             |    /   /
  |______     __|  |______     __|   /   /_____
         |   |            |   |     |          |      Pat Clark
         |___|            |___|     |__________|       69 442
						      400/400

   "Just your average 300+hp garage hogging, gas sucking, money pit"

------------------------------

From: SG Hartfelder <stanh@compusmart.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 06:32:38 -0300
Subject: Re: 1966 & 1967 Toronados 

Welcome to the group!




At 09:52 AM 96/4/6 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 96-04-06 05:18:24 EST, you write:
>
>>Hello fellow enthusiasts!
>>
>>This, being a letter of introduction, I must thank Gregg Ludlam for my being
>>here!
>>
>>We have had a small circle of Toro nuts sharing info on AOL and Prodigy for
>>about year now. I have been on this address for one night and I already love
>>it. This has a great potential for us Toronado addicts to share and spread
>>information to one another. I am also a member of the OCA , Toronado
>Chapter,
>>and the Oldsmobile Club of Wisconsin. 
>
>Oh, no, not another one... ;)
>
>>Although I am partial to Toronados (all years, but especially 66 & 67's), I
>>share a love in general for all Oldsmobiles. My Dad will soon have his '34
>>Olds back on the road as well as his 67 Toro with an original 17.5 K on the
>>clock. As for me, I'm in the final stages of  rebuilding my 1966 California
>>Toro with 62K. It still needs work, but as she stands, I'm still proud of
>>her.
>
>17.5k? Wow! I love the '67 lines best (cleanest, I think). And is that '34
>still Olds powered? They'll hang you here if it isn't...<-g->
>
>>I have been driving/collecting Toros since high school (1973). I have
>amassed
>> what amounts to a 3 car garage full of parts for these cars. While in
>>college, I used to skip school and haunt the bone yards for those precious
>>Toronado parts.  Even as I speak, I am beginning to part out yet another
>1967
>>Toro Deluxe.
>
>I may need a speedo for a '69, so I may be in touch soon. 
>
>>Please feel free to correspond to me at Toronado66@aol.com if you want to
>>share stories, need parts, or advise on projects.
>>
>>Greg Kalkhoff
>
>Welcome to the list, Greg; you'll often be confused with the *other* Toronado
>owners here named Greg (what, twenty or so at last count?). Any derogatory
>remarks about Toros from 98 or Cutlass owners are purely in jest; we're only
>serious when we put down Ch*vies and such.
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 13:53:01 -0300
Subject: toros

>>I have been driving/collecting Toros since high school (1973). I have
>amassed
>> what amounts to a 3 car garage full of parts for these cars. While in
>>college, I used to skip school and haunt the bone yards for those precious
>>Toronado parts.  Even as I speak, I am beginning to part out yet another
>1967
>>Toro Deluxe.
>
>I may need a speedo for a '69, so I may be in touch soon. 
>
>>Please feel free to correspond to me at Toronado66@aol.com if you want to
>>share stories, need parts, or advise on projects.
>>
>>Greg Kalkhoff
>
>Welcome to the list, Greg; you'll often be confused with the *other* Toronado
>owners here named Greg (what, twenty or so at last count?). Any derogatory
>remarks about Toros from 98 or Cutlass owners are purely in jest; we're only
>serious when we put down Ch*vies and such.
>
>
>

Oh No, the infection spreads... ;>)


          ___              ___        _________
         /   |            /   |      /         \
        /    |           /    |     |   ___    |
       /     |          /     |     |__|   |   |
      /      |         /      |           /   /   
     /       |        /       |          /   /   
    /   /|   |       /   /|   |         /   /
   /   /_|   |__    /   /_|   |__      /   /
  |             |  |             |    /   /
  |______     __|  |______     __|   /   /_____
         |   |            |   |     |          |      Pat Clark
         |___|            |___|     |__________|       69 442
						      400/400

   "Just your average 300+hp garage hogging, gas sucking, money pit"

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:59:45 -0300
Subject: Re: Causes of Backfire 

>What causes a car to stumble and backfire at low rpm acceleration?

IMHO, it usually indicates a timing problem of some sort since a
valve (either intake or exhaust) is partially open when the mixture
fires. Random guesses as to cause:

1) Overheating, causing pre-ignition in cylinders

2) Timing problem due to

- -- Stuck breaker plate in distributor

- -- Skipped tooth of timing gears/chain/belt

- -- Transposed spark plug wires (going to wrong cylinder(s))

- -- ECM left in self-test diagnostic mode after tuneup, when jumper
   accidentally left in ALDL link socket under dash (don't ask  :-)

- -- Crossfiring plug wires - spark jumps to adjacent wire through bad
insulation

- -- Timing off (e.g. distributor out of position)

3) Lugging engine in too-high a gear; driver pressing on gas pedal
squirts too much gas into intake

What have you tried or tested so far? And what year and model of car is it?

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "wesf@hpdmm12.boi.hp.com" <wesf@hpdmm12.boi.hp.com> 
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 14:20:06 -0300
Subject: Re: Lightning Rods, Shifter Plate and SP Converters 

>  I've also dreamed of Lightning Rods since I had my 80.  I believe my
>  OD tranny options would be a 700R4 or 200R4(?).  Will LRs work with
>  either of these?  

Although, the LR shifter is a 3-speed shifter, you should be able to
use it with a 4-speed auto if you don't want to manually select 1st
gear.  On the 700R-4 it isn't that big of a deal since 1st gear is
so low anyway and manually selecting it at too high a speed while
downshifting would not be that great.  On my '83 Trans Am with a 
700R-4, I put a B&M 3-speed vertical-gate ratchet shifter in it and 
used it from 2nd through 4th and it worked just great!  I just let 
the transmission select 1st gear on its own and I manually shifted
the rest.  I'd be pretty certain that you could do the same with the 
Lightning Rods.

>I got something in the mail from Lauren Engineering-they are having 
>one of their semi-annual Cutlass parts sales until the end of April. 
>Oh, and they said something about working on a Hurst shifter plate. 
>Now, if they're making a repro Lightning Rod, that'd be marvelous, 
>but I'm not clear on what a shifter PLATE is.  Anybody? 

They are probably referring to the bezel that covers the Dual/Gate
shifters.  It is a chromed plastic part that has a thin section
between the standard and manual patterns that regularly snaps off.
Probably the weakest (although only cosmetic) part of the Dual/Gate
shifter (the 2nd weakest part is a sheet metal guide inside the
shifter that tends to wear in time.  Now, THAT'S the part I need...).

>At least one list member indicated he/she knows of sources other than
>Kenne-Bell that can repair or provide variable pitch converters.

My SP converter was a special-order from the Continental Converter
Corporation.  Find someone that handles those and I'm sure they could
special order one for you.

Wes Fujii

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:22:42 -0300
Subject: Restification (was: A Flamed Toro!!! ) 

          I second the motion.  Build the car for yourself, because 
          restored or not, you'll rarely get your investment back.  
          This is a HOBBY, not a business (don't let the IRS see this, 
          though...)
          
          I especially have a hard time not upgrading brakes, 
          suspension, and tires on a 30 year old car.  370 (factory 
          rated) horsepower on F70-14 bias ply tires and drum brakes 
          is downright scary.  Add headers, nitrous, and intake 
          upgrades to the real 440 hp of a W-30 and you have a car 
          that cries out for four wheel discs and Comp T/As.  Of 
          course, I prefer my nitrous hidden _under_ the W-30 
          manifold!  (BTW, a tool box shell in the trunk makes a great 
          place to hide the nitrous bottle).
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:00:44 -0300
Subject: misc

> > >According to Olds, it was a Turbohydramatic Transmission - no number
> > >designation, although it's been written that it was a specially adapted
> > >TH400 - with TH400 internals, supposedly.
> >
> > I'd always heard them referred to as the TH425.
>
> Okay, I was told by the guy at the tranny shop (who has 20 yrs exp..) that the
 TORO
> tranny is a 425.  The tranny is a TH400 but the "25" designates it as a front-
> drive.  He was a little "short" about explaining although I tried to, as tactf
ully as
> possible, ask him how he knew that since I couldnt find it in writing anywhere

I am sure that I saw in one of the manuals one time that it was a "TH425"
trans. Prolly the '66 or '67 manual, Toro section.

> I still didn't get any reply as to the original color.  I would also like to k
> original color of the 425 engine in the TORO.  Was it slate blue like the air
> and valve cover gaskets? Or, was it gold with slate blue vcovers/cleaner?  I h

S'far as I know, the trans is natural color, might have gotten some overspray
IF the engine was painted after attaching it to trans, like A-bodies. Engine
should be Slate Blue [NOT the later Blue used by Olds...], including block,
intake, heads, RACovers, oil pan. Presumably overspray will be on the dist'r
and bypass hose. Brackets would be black, but not glossy.

> HOTROD magazine and the cover is the TORO power-plant.  It shows the tranny as
 gold, the
> engine as gold, the differential as red and the valve cover/air cleaner as sla
te blue.
> Any replies appreciated.  I'm getting ready to have the tranny painted and wou
ld like
> the original color.
> Thanks, Conrad

That was not exactly a production engine, then, eh? Show-n-tell display unit...

> Last night it finally happened; I got The Call. It was from Dad, who
> wanted to know when I planned to get rid of a rusty front bumper assembly

Don't dumpsterize it- recycle, not landfill! A will prolly take it for free, it
adds to their scrap pile. However, our local scrap metal place does not accept
exhaust systems, gas tanks, or paint/chemical containers, so that's a different
story.

> Kind of a strange question here, but what cars did the 403 c.i. engine come
> in, and through what years and where does it derive from?. I had never heard
> of this engine until I subscribed to this list....
> I must have missed the seventies.
> Jeff Hunter

Well, the 403 was used in all kinds of car, mostly the big guys, but I guess
one year it was a Cutlass option. Offered 1977 to 1979 only, a short run. It is
the biggest small block made. 3 CID larger than that 'other brand' ever made!
Heh. Yeah, and we had a 330 when they had but a mere 327, too. A 403 is naught
but the std. small block with a humongous bore: 4.351", as compared to the
4.057" of the 350, 3.9 or so of the 330. Same stroke for all the SB's: 3.385".
- -=Chris=-

> BTW, it was interesting when I called the Olds dealer here last week
> looking for that 403 cam:
>
> "Got a big-block, do ya?" the parts guy asked.
> "No, a small-block. A 350."
> "Well, this cam won't fit," he said.

AAAAAAAAARGH! And this guy is a PARTS COUNTER MAN at a Dealer?!?!?! Geeez. I
swear, the fight against Olds misinformation never ends...

> "No, the 403 is a small-block, so it should."
> "No way. It's a big-block."
> "It gets confusing, but I'm told that it's a small-block."
> "I don't think so. This cam won't fit a 350."

Like it even MATTERS whether it's a BB or SB! Jeeeeez! Please, get me that
dolt^H^H^H^H guy's address so I can mail him the true dope on what fits what.
  For the uninformed: The Olds V8 cam does NOT care whether a BB or SB engine
is wrapped around it! It cares only what angle them lifters are at. There's 2
kinds of blocks in that respect: 45-degree and the so-called "39-degree"
blocks. That's the ONLY difference cam-wise.
  Most pre-68 engines were 45's. All 68-up engines are 39's, and can thus swap
cams. The only pre-68 blocks with the 39 cam were the Toronado version of the
425 and the '66-67 400 offered in the 442.

> "Trust me, it will... do you have it?"
> "Nope. Discontinued."
> Shades of the Monty Python "Cheeseshop" sketch...   :)
> Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

That guy's brother must be the machinist who thinks that you NEED to mill the
intake or intake side of the head after milling the gasket surface... Aye, aye,
aye!

- --new Toro man--
> >I have been driving/collecting Toros since high school (1973). I have
> amassed
> > what amounts to a 3 car garage full of parts for these cars. While in
> >college, I used to skip school and haunt the bone yards for those precious
> >Toronado parts.  Even as I speak, I am beginning to part out yet another
> 1967 Toro Deluxe.
> >Greg Kalkhoff

I add a welcome. Finally, another Toro-knowledgeable car-partser!
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:09:32 -0300
Subject: Re: 1966 & 1967 Toronados

On Mon, 8 Apr 1996, SG Hartfelder wrote:

> Welcome to the group!

Stan's in a good mood today because he lives in Edmonton, Alberta, where I
hear it reached 70 degrees fahrenheit yesterday... meanwhile we're
battening down the hatches here in anticipation of another snowstorm, the
one that headed up the east coast overnight. Arrrrgh!!!

Did you get the '38 on the road yesterday? :)

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 06:10:42 -0300
Subject: Re: toros

Pat Clark 952-3776 wrote:
> 
> Oh No, the infection spreads... ;>)


Heh-heh-heh...

The 66 Toro and Mike

- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:11:52 -0300
Subject: Re: lightning rods

On Mon, 8 Apr 1996, Tom Lentz wrote:
>      Currently I'm 
>      riding in the Hurst Olds using a laptop while my Fiance is driving).  

I think this marks the first mobile post in the list's history. How's the 
cell modem work?

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:11:15 -0300
Subject: Bumper Disposal

Andrew;
I can't believe I forgot to mention: Take the bumper to the local scrap metal
recycler yourself. While you're there, of course, you'll want to inspect that
pile of engines, right? Never know when that old 400 with D heads is gonna show
up there... Might find a nice Tornado 425 motor, maybe a 1970 455-4V, who
knows? Be sure & call first and ask 1) do they sell scrap engines, and 2) for
how much? By the pound?
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:20:31 -0300
Subject: Re: lightning rods 

At 04.32 04,08,96 -0300, you wrote:
>
>     They're a type of shifter made by Hurst.  They're standard in the 
>     '83-'84 Hurst/Olds, I'm not an authority on the earlier years of 
>     H/O's, so I can't say if they came with them.  There's a picture of 
>     them on my car's page on Bryce's Olds Page (http://www.442.com).
>     
>     Basically, they're kind of a "His-n-hers" shifter.  There are three 
>     shift rods in the center console.  The left one goes P R N OD D and 
>     works like a normal gearshift with the exception of no L(ow).  If you 
>     shift it all the way down into D, then the car is limited to third 
>     gear or lower.  When in D, you can shift the middle lever toward you 
>     to now limit the car to 2nd gear.  When it's down you can pull the 
>     right lever to limit to first.  When accelerating you can start with 
>     all the shifters toward you, then throw the right, center, then left 
>     one forward while accelerating.  Kind of fun, but in reality they're 
>     not much more than a gimmick, since the tranny is set to shift at 
>     about 5200rpm on WOT (I have the exact specs at home.  Currently I'm 
>     riding in the Hurst Olds using a laptop while my Fiance is driving).  
>     An automatic tranny can generally shift more precise and faster than a 
>     human.
>     
>     Tom L.
>
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
>Subject: lightning rods
>Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
>Date:    4/6/96 3:25 PM
>
>
>What are lightning rods?? I've never heard of them before...
>     
>--
>Dave
>69 Cutlass Supreme
>     

well right now my Bravada P'up is nearign completeion...and i am now
wondering about drivetrain before i paint it.  what hurst shifter would you
suggest, and what mods would you suggest to beef up the 4L60E tranny (700R4)
and the 4.3 V6 (200 hp)? also what Olds steering wheel would look the
best...i'm not going to spend 250 on the Bravada hand wrapped leather
steering wheel.
                    Zack
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\ "That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
 *************

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:23:36 -0300
Subject: Re: Causes of Backfire 

At 13.28 04,08,96 -0300, you wrote:
>What causes a car to stumble and backfire at low rpm acceleration?
>
>(Another dumb question (tm) by Pat Clark)
>
>
>
>
>          ___              ___        _________
>         /   |            /   |      /         \
>        /    |           /    |     |   ___    |
>       /     |          /     |     |__|   |   |
>      /      |         /      |           /   /   
>     /       |        /       |          /   /   
>    /   /|   |       /   /|   |         /   /
>   /   /_|   |__    /   /_|   |__      /   /
>  |             |  |             |    /   /
>  |______     __|  |______     __|   /   /_____
>         |   |            |   |     |          |      Pat Clark
>         |___|            |___|     |__________|       69 442
>						      400/400
>
>   "Just your average 300+hp garage hogging, gas sucking, money pit"

surprisingly backfiring is causing the stumbling...and bacfiring is
sometimes caused by not enough backpressure in the exhaust!
                    Zack
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\ "That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
 *************

------------------------------

From: Michael Browder <browder@hq.si.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:23:55 -0300
Subject: replacing hydraulic fluid on conv. tops. 

I just bought a '71 CS convertible from a friend of mine.  For some unknown
reason, he put heavy duty gear oil in the cylinders for the power top (he
babbled something about them leaking and tried to use thicker stuff).  Right
before he sold me the car, he replaced the cylinders but he didn't replace the
fluid.  Consequently, the top goes up and down VERY S-L-O-W-L-Y.  I want to replace
the fluid, but can't figure out how.  I don't have any manuals for the car.  I can
see the cylinders (they definitely look new), but for the life of me can't figure
out how to get to them.  Can anyone out there help me out?

Thanks in advance
Mike
aka Big Daddy

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:26:07 -0300
Subject: Re: Causes of Backfire

On Mon, 8 Apr 1996, Pat Clark 952-3776 wrote:
> What causes a car to stumble and backfire at low rpm acceleration?
> 
> (Another dumb question (tm) by Pat Clark)

You've trademarked them, while I've patented the stupid mechanical move 
("Let me just give this another twist... <snap> oh s**t...").  :)

Seriously, I suspect this is related to your question last week which 
reminded me of the woes I had with my '68. When it was acting up it did 
this too. Andy's answer hit some of the main suspects. I'd still be 
suspicious of the coil and/or dwell setting on the points. If the dwell 
is off it can cause symptoms similar to timing problems. A stumble on 
acceleration can also be related to accelerator pump problems but that 
wouldn't explain the backfire.

Mine is OK now but if it ever gets back to causing problems I've pretty 
much decided that the points are outta there and I'm going to pick up one 
of the "Ignitor" gizmos by Pertronics that Mr. Ludlam told us about a few 
months back. I see that they're in the Year One catalog now so you ought 
to be able to pick one up elsewhere for about half the price...


Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:33:41 -0300
Subject: Re: misc & 403 Cams

On Mon, 8 Apr 1996, Chris Brown Witt wrote:

<various comments re. Olds cams and parts man ignorance of same snipped>

Chris, I swear that when I was having that conversation, I was thinking 
of you! All of my Olds engine trivia knowledge I owe to you... it was a 
real nice feeling to know something that the dealer didn't! Thanks.

BTW, it was a dual Ch**y-Olds dealer, so maybe that explains the dumbness 
of it all...

Also BTW, since the cam I was seeking is apparently unavailable, can 
someone inform me what a Dave Smith cam goes for (cheaper than Mondello I 
hope)?


Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: eda@dl.tc.faa.gov
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:33:55 -0300
Subject: Re: What to do with my 85 Cutlass?? 

>   I've also dreamed of Lightning Rods since I had my 80.  I believe my
>   OD tranny options would be a 700R4 or 200R4(?).  Will LRs work with
>   either of these?  Can you still buy LRs or will I have to find a
>  wrecked H/O?

>> As for the lighting rods, you can still buy them from Hurst, although if I
>> remember correctly, they are a little pricey.  Anyway, the odds of finding a
>> wrecked 83/84 Hurst are slim to none.  I am pretty sure that they make a
>> model for the 4 speed automatics too.


The 200-R4 is the only tranny that the Lightning Rods were made for;  it was the standard trans on the '83-'84 H/O's.  Whoops, whoa, that's 200-4R, sorry.  The 700-R4, is a Chevy tranny, and though I have no direct experience in the matter (and no desire to try switching the Firechicken's tranny into the H/O, or vice-versa), I'm under the impression that this is a pain in the ass to use on a B-O-P drivetrain (different, uh flexplate?  driveshaft length, etc.)  I agree on the odds of finding the wrecked H/O.  If you do, let me know! :-)

>   a ram-air system need some kind of controls for shutting it on and off
>   at different speeds or a special fuel management system?

In this case, I don't think so.  The '83-'84 H/O's, and maybe some of the 442's, came with dual-inlet air-cleaner housings.  Not sure the exact part-number, but one of those would make the job easier.  That, or a couple stock one-inlet deals, a pair of tin snips, and some welding :-)  There was an article on this in one of the car mags a while back...anyway, the two-inlet deal would be better, because you would have the whole ThermAC setup (the little vent inside the inlet tube that opens and closes).  Probably all you'd need, as far as control goes.  If you find a piece of plastic that fits those bumper holes nicely, let me know (I'm keeping an eye out myself - probably find the perfect thing on a 55 Edsel ;-).

Good luck, keep us posted!

Ed Atlee			'77 Cutlass Supreme
eda@dl.tc.faa.gov		'84 Hurst/Olds
	R O C K E T	P O W E R E D ! !

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:45:31 -0300
Subject: Holly carb, Slogan

I was out inspecting a car today, found an Edelbrock "Performer 350 Olds"
intake on it, and a Holley "List 7351 / 1592" Carb on it. Oh, and a young
squirrel hiding between the hood skin and the internal frame stamping [of the
hood]. Heh.

Anyhow, any interest in the Intake? Anybody know anything about this carb? Like
CFM rating, good points, bad points, etc.?

Also, I was thinking about some slogans that I might use for Rocket Science,
some come from a friend, Mike Hetherington...

"It's a hobby, not a business"
"We're cheaper.... 'cause we're not as good!"
"Towing in UNDER 24 hours!"
"Crude but effective"
"Will race for food"
Because there's more than one type of "small block"
... any other suggestions :)

I made up a nice new graphic, too, with the new computer [it's fun!]. A regular
dial [analog] clock shows 4:42... the text says "WHAT TIME IS IT" in large
letters, and smaller across the bottom, "Time for you to call the Oldsmobile
Experts" and the Clock bears the words "Rocket Science" of course.
  Hope to get it on the Bryceman's web page soon, for all to enjoy...
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:47:15 -0300
Subject: Re: replacing hydraulic fluid on conv. tops.

On Mon, 8 Apr 1996, Michael Browder wrote:
> I just bought a '71 CS convertible from a friend of mine.  For some unknown
> reason, he put heavy duty gear oil in the cylinders for the power top (he
> babbled something about them leaking and tried to use thicker stuff).  Right
> before he sold me the car, he replaced the cylinders but he didn't replace the
> fluid.  Consequently, the top goes up and down VERY S-L-O-W-L-Y.  I want to replace
> the fluid, but can't figure out how.  I don't have any manuals for the car.  I can
> see the cylinders (they definitely look new), but for the life of me can't figure
> out how to get to them.  Can anyone out there help me out?

This must be my lucky day...

My Skylark taught me this and I'm sure the Olds mechanism is identical. 
Don't worry about getting at the cylinders. In the trunk mounted on the 
differential hump is the top hydraulic pump. There are two lines coming 
off it on either side each going to the top and bottom of each cylinder. 
The pump itself also has a hydraulic fluid resivoir <sp?>. To purge the 
cylinders I would just disconnect one of the hoses from each side at the 
pump and with a container to catch the fluid have a friend operate the 
switch. This should pump the fluid out of the cylinders (but be careful 
you don't spray oil everywhere or that the top doesn't crunch you if it 
moves down). If you reverse the switch the oil should get pumped out of 
the resivoir (you will probably want a couple of pieces of fuel line hose 
or whatever to put over the fittings leading to the catch pan for this).

Cycling this a few times should get rid of most of the oil. You then need
to refill the resivoir with ATF and reattach all of the hoses. You will
need to cycle the pump back and forth a number of times and top up the
resivoir to purge the air out of the system while topping up the thing
with more ATF. The top won't move at all at first, then move very slowly,
before all of a sudden it works like new. Hope it won't leak with the ATF 
in there (it shouldn't, unless you forget to tighten down the hoses like 
I did). Good luck! 

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: SG Hartfelder <stanh@compusmart.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:50:45 -0300
Subject: Re: lightning rods 

Looks like it's workin' fine......



At 03:11 PM 96/4/8 -0300, you wrote:
>On Mon, 8 Apr 1996, Tom Lentz wrote:
>>      Currently I'm 
>>      riding in the Hurst Olds using a laptop while my Fiance is driving).  
>
>I think this marks the first mobile post in the list's history. How's the 
>cell modem work?
>
>Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: Doug Ahern <doug@cobra.cosmic.uga.edu>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:59:18 -0300
Subject: Re: A Flamed Toro!!! 

> I DEFINITELY believe in doing the car the way you want it and not what some
> self-appointed expert declares is correct.  In particular the muscle car era

AMEM!!

> "incorrect" if hundreds of cars had a legitimate Olds/GM part installed on
> the appropriate year car?  Original Z-28's ('67 I think) came with a set of
> headers in the trunk.  Is it incorrect to install them or must they remain,
> untouched, in the trunk?  If so, what a waste and it is not correct as the
> cars were used and run.

especially in the 72-74 time period when the factory backed off the 
factory muscle, but promoted owners to to buy the go-fast parts
from the factory and put them on themselves.  Mopar was big on this,
they ran adds promoting the six pack setup by itself for a few years
after it was discountinued as a factory option.

I got sick of car meets back in about '90 (and stopped going until just 
recently), because people were talking about have an original style
AC/Delco oil filter, and that they hated seeing "fram orange".  ?? what,
who do you know that buys a new 1996 model car and goes out and buys
a $6 dealer filter instead of a $2.50 superior product fram or stp??
I got tired of muscle car owners turning up their nosed at modified
(but really nice) '60s iron...


once people get bored with the 100 point muscle thing, what will be the next
craze??  looking back throught old issues of hot rods,  I see these
patterns:

mid 70's -- vans, slotted dish, murals, and highly customized interiors
            t-buckets, 30's hot rods.  55-7 chevies,  high rise mainfolds
            with dual carbs sticking out the hood.  v8 vegas...
late 70's/early 80's -- blowers, fuel injection, 
mid eights -- solid color cars for the most part, fat fendered post ww2
           rods,  nitrous, and most of all PRO STREET! centerlines..
late 80s/early 90's -- muscle cars, 100% originality, street sleepers, 
           pro street is still there a little.

what is next?  Fads I thing would be a lot of fun:

1. should-have-been-restos:  building cars the factories should have 
built, and have it look like the factory did (a nice melding of the
resto guys and the hot rodders).  .i.e. a 1966 442 425,, or a '79
Cultass 455,  made to look somewhat factory...

2. race car replicas,  either a NASCAR replica (leaving off the numbers
for the timid), scca trans amm replicas,  endros, pike peak racers.
since all the original muscle is too $$$, this could make good with 
all the 6 cylinder tempests, belvedres, and camaros etc.

what do yall think?  where is street rodding going?


Doug Ahern      doug@cosmic.uga.edu  1964 F-85 Cutlass 
http://www.cosmic.uga.edu/doug.html  1969 Dart 
Sys Admin, COSMIC, Univ. of Georgia  1974 Satellite ex-cop car

------------------------------

From: SG Hartfelder <stanh@compusmart.ab.ca>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:00:14 -0300
Subject: Re: 1966 & 1967 Toronados 

Hey Thanx!  It is georgous today (mid 70's).  I did get the out yesterday
but only to vacuum, wash, dry off and shine it.  So, it's in perfect shape
and ready to go.  Just have to get the insurance turned on.

They are predicting some snow flurries on Wednesday.  I think everyone here
is pretty much fed-up with winter.  Come on Summer......


At 03:09 PM 96/4/8 -0300, you wrote:
>On Mon, 8 Apr 1996, SG Hartfelder wrote:
>
>> Welcome to the group!
>
>Stan's in a good mood today because he lives in Edmonton, Alberta, where I
>hear it reached 70 degrees fahrenheit yesterday... meanwhile we're
>battening down the hatches here in anticipation of another snowstorm, the
>one that headed up the east coast overnight. Arrrrgh!!!
>
>Did you get the '38 on the road yesterday? :)
>
>Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 16:29:32 -0300
Subject: Re: Causes of Backfire

At 01:28 PM 4/8/96 -0300, you wrote:
>What causes a car to stumble and backfire at low rpm acceleration?
>
>(Another dumb question (tm) by Pat Clark)
>
>
>
>
>          ___              ___        _________
>         /   |            /   |      /         \
>        /    |           /    |     |   ___    |
>       /     |          /     |     |__|   |   |
>      /      |         /      |           /   /   
>     /       |        /       |          /   /   
>    /   /|   |       /   /|   |         /   /
>   /   /_|   |__    /   /_|   |__      /   /
>  |             |  |             |    /   /
>  |______     __|  |______     __|   /   /_____
>         |   |            |   |     |          |      Pat Clark
>         |___|            |___|     |__________|       69 442
>						      400/400
>
>   "Just your average 300+hp garage hogging, gas sucking, money pit"
>
>
Well Pat,

I just fixed that problem in my 69 Cutlass this weekend!  I had an
occasional  miss and backfire at low rpm, but when the engine started
turning higher rpm's, it went away.  Well, at first I thought I was gonna
have to pull the heads and  replace a burned valve or something like that.
Not what I wanted to do on Easter Sunday.  So, first I checked the
compression.  Factory specs are 180 psi for a stock 1969 350 4bbl (I
believe), I had 170+ in all cylinders.  Compression was okay, next I checked
ignition.  I bought a new coil and replaced the spark plugs.  The wires and
points are only 3 months old, so I left them alone.  I had spark at all 8
plugs.  Not an ignition problem (this time...).  I still had the miss, so I
asked a mechanic friend of mine what he thought.  He said I probably had a
leaky intake manifold gasket.  So, on Saturday I pulled the intake manifold
and replaced the gasket.  I did have two leaks, one around #3 intake and one
around #5 intake.  I put in a new gasket, put everything back
together...STILL had a miss.  I pulled wires off plugs one at a time and
found #5 was missing.  On the intake, right on the #5 runner is the vacuum
source for the vacuum advance.  I checked the vacuum advance module, and the
diaphragm had a big hole in it.  After I replaced the vacuum advance module,
everything was fine.  No more miss!! 

Anyway, just check for a vacuum leak.  That may be all it is.

Hope this helps
- --
Dave 
69 Cutlass Supreme    

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 16:29:07 -0300
Subject: Re: Toro Colors

At 10:24 AM 4/8/96 -0300, you wrote:
>>I can find no evidence whatsoever of any finish applied to the 
>>torque converter housing or the transmission housing.
>
>Notwithstanding any production differences between Toronados and
>Everything Else, this would agree with what Cars & Parts told someone
>recently about the transmission of his, um, '66 Ch*vy, I think it was.
>He was saying that the rebuild shop had offered to "coat" or paint his 
>trans and he had declined either until he could find out which would be 
>more accurate as original, but the trans had already started to rust.
>Their response was that the originals were never painted and did indeed
>simply rust in normal use.
>
>Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
>Datalogics, Inc.
>441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
>Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473
>
>
>
The trans shouldn't rust...it's not steel.  The tranny case is aluminum.
The pan and torque convertor are steel, and the torque convertor cover is
either plastic or steel.  Those parts may rust, but the tranny case won't.
There may be some oxidation on the aluminum, but it wont look like rust on
steel.

- --
Dave
69 Cutlass Supreme

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 16:41:12 -0300
Subject: Re: Holly carb, Slogan

At 03:45 PM 4/8/96 -0300, you wrote:
>I was out inspecting a car today, found an Edelbrock "Performer 350 Olds"
>intake on it, and a Holley "List 7351 / 1592" Carb on it. Oh, and a young
>squirrel hiding between the hood skin and the internal frame stamping [of the
>hood]. Heh.
>
>Anyhow, any interest in the Intake? Anybody know anything about this carb? Like
>CFM rating, good points, bad points, etc.?
>
Don't know anything about the carb, but I am interested in the
intake...what's it sellin' for?

- --
Dave
69 Cutlass Supreme

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:32:35 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: lightning rods 

     Unfortunately, it wasn't a mobile post.  I called in from the hotel 
     before we left and downloaded (we use a cc:Mail gateway) 100 or so 
     messages that I missed over the weekend to keep me busy on the way 
     home.  I read the messages and typed the new one in the car, but it 
     didn't get sent until I got home to a genuine phone line.
     
     Now, we do *have* the cell-modem adaptor cable for the Megahertz 
     PCMCIA modem in there, but I've never used it and I doubt it would 
     have worked anyways since we were in the middle of the Cascades (read: 
     60 miles from nowhere) at the time.
     
     It was neat being able to read about Olds' while riding in one, and 
     write about lightning rods while staring at a set.
     
     Oh, and the '84 H/O performed flawlessly on the trip (all 18 mpg of 
     it)!  While my '79 w/ the 260 also had made similar trips many times, 
     you pretty much had to floor it just to maintain 45mph up the mountain 
     passes, and it threatened to overheat while doing so (never actually 
     did boil over, but I was forced to turn on the heater a time or two).  
     The H/O didn't even break a sweat climbing the hills at 70mph.  
     Torque!  I love it!
     
     Tom L.

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: lightning rods
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    4/8/96 10:32 AM


On Mon, 8 Apr 1996, Tom Lentz wrote: 
>      Currently I'm 
>      riding in the Hurst Olds using a laptop while my Fiance is driving).  
     
I think this marks the first mobile post in the list's history. How's the 
cell modem work?
     
Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
     
     
     

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 17:35:12 -0300
Subject: Re: Bumper Disposal 

>I can't believe I forgot to mention: Take the bumper to the local scrap metal
>recycler yourself.

Looks like I'll try to take it to our favorite local body shop; my sister's
Escort is in there right now for crushi^H^H^H^H^H^Hrepairs and I know the
owner...

>While you're there, of course, you'll want to inspect that
>pile of engines, right? Never know when that old 400 with D heads is gonna show
>up there... Might find a nice Tornado 425 motor, maybe a 1970 455-4V, who
>knows? Be sure & call first and ask 1) do they sell scrap engines, and 2) for
>how much? By the pound?

Funny you should mention... my favorite non-u-pickem place was always
Evanston Auto Wreckers in North Suburban Chicago. (I think they're still
there; if you feel daring, dial (847) 475-4441 and see if they answer.)
The way they worked, since they were in the middle of a lower-class
residential neighborhood and didn't have acres of space on their block,
was that they'd bring a car into the garage, dismantle it by hand and truck
the carcass off somewhere else for shredding. The parts they take off/out
were filed, library-style, on huge shelves in the back, so they'd have
aisles of doors, hoods, etc., and a little index-card system to keep track
of it all. Don't know what their engine availability is, but their card
system enables them to be halfway accurate when answering questions over
the phone.

And really decent guys to deal with, too; not your junkyard-dog attitude
like you see at Victory Auto Wreckers or Hy-Way Auto Parts. (I think a
bunch of Chicago readers are probably nodding their heads by now... :-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: <tc75918@hpr169.mdhc.mdc.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 13:54:59 -0400
Subject: Re: What to do with my 85 Cutlass??

> 
> >I own an 85 Cutlass Salon w/ all the options (I think) including T-tops.
> 
> That's cool, I own an 1986 Salon, (307,TH200-4R) and my brother owns an 1985
> Salon, (T-Tops,307,TH200-C).  They both can be seen on Bryceman's page.
> Check em out and tell me what ya think.

Nice!  Are those the stock rims on brothers car?  They looked like they were 
painted, but my Salon had chrome ones.

> 
> That's too bad, I just got my 307, high performance rebuild done and I can't
> wait to see what it does in the 1/4.  For more details about the work and
> parts involved, just drop me a line.

I would like to hear it all actually.  Maybe email would be better unless others
are interested.  I haven't decided yet for sure, but I think I'm gonna look for
a 403 or 350.  It would be good to know in case I do stick with the 307.  Are
you planning on having the car dyno'd?

> 
> What do ya know, I'm in Arizona too.  I live on the northwest side of Tucson
> and I would like to know where your at.  Arizona is great for rustfree cars
> and parts.  It is just that damn blazing sun, that makes us go through paint
> jobs every 4 years!!!

I live in East Mesa.  Probably about 1.5 - 2 hrs from you?

> 
> >  Also planning a H/O replica rear spoiler and hood
> >  scoop, painting the whole thing a deep shinny burghandy, and leaving off
> >  all of the chrome trim along doors, fenders, hood, etc.  I'm also gonna
> >  replace all the weather-stripping.  
> >
> 

- --Dan

------------------------------

From: <tc75918@hpr169.mdhc.mdc.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 14:00:25 -0400
Subject: Re: G-body stuff

> >
> >For those interested, I got my '85 442 out to look at the head numbers, and
> >they are 5As(the older style).  Unless GM changed in the middle of the model
> >year, its safe to say that the 7As with the different cam weren't around
> >'till '86.
> >
> Maybe only the 85 442s came with 5A heads because my brother, Brodie's 85
> Salon has 7A heads.  Changing halfway through the year is the only thing I
> can think of.  Once we take apart my brothers 85 motor, we'll see whats in
> it according to cam and lifters.  After we took out my 86 motor w/ 7A heads,
> we noticed that the exhaust ports are oval.  On the 5A heads, the exhaust
> ports are rectangular.  This is probably the reason why headers aren't made
> for the 7As.  Dan or anyone else with an 85 want to see what they got.  

Can't do it right now as it's about 2700 miles away.  I could have my father
check in a couple weeks though when he's home.  How do you tell which head
it is?


- --Dan

------------------------------

From: <tc75918@hpr169.mdhc.mdc.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 14:09:12 -0400
Subject: Re: 403 note

>           we're talking about 2-3% of the weight of the car.  The 
>           G-body types that have trouble fitting in a big block 
>           shouldn't even have to think twice...go for the 403, paint 
>           it corporate blue, and tell the smog station inspector it's 
>           a 307 (tell the competition it's a 260!).

Hmmm.  Are they really that gullible (I hope)?  I'm thinking I may just
try doing this very thing.  I guess from the outside, they really wouldn't
look different would they?

On a related note, does the 403/350/307 all use the same intake manifold?
Does Holley, Edlebrock or anbody else make a TBI unit for these engines or
maybe a TPI system with intake manifold?  (Suppose I'd have to wait till 
after the emissions test for this though.)


- --Dan

------------------------------

From: jblair@nhr.com (John T. Blair)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:25:31 -0300
Subject: Re: So Near and Yet So Far...  

Bob writes:

>FYI here are the production figures for the SX (Y79) option:
>
>1970  
>Holiday Coupe                                  6,404
>Convertible                                          793 (We have one)
>Total                                                 7,197

Is there a break out for the 1970's with the W-32 365hp engine, for coupe and convertible?
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ          email:  jblair@nhr.com
Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  495-8229

48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget  65 Morgan 4/4 Series V
     75 Bricklin SV1   77 Spitfire

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:36:44 -0300
Subject: wheels

I need to buy new tires for my 69 Cutlass.  I have Super Stock Two wheels on
it (15x7), with 215/65/15 tires.  I would like to go to a little wider tire
with a lower profile.  Would a 235/60/15 work?  I know it will fit under the
fender, but how does it compare in diamater?  Or I could go to a 225/50/15,
which would be a much smaller diameter tire, and lower the car somewhat.
What do ya'll recommend?  The car originally had 14 inch rims w/hubcaps, but
I don't know the original tire size on that 14 inch rim.  I'm not really
worried about an accurate speedo, because the tranny was changed out twice
while my father-in-law owned the car, so it is off anyway (the current
tranny is out of a 76 Cutlass). Are different speedo gears available for the
tranny (TH350)?  If so, how do I tell which ratio (or whatever?) I need?  

Geez, this is more complicated than I first thought...


Thanks
- --
Dave Paulison
69 Cutlass Supreme

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:37:44 -0300
Subject: Thanks for the Welcome 

To all Olds enthusiasts,

Thank you guys (and gals) for such a warm response to my new arrival. I can
see I am gonna enjoy it here.

Like I said, I'm more than happy to help anyone with earlier Toros. I won't
hand out baloney either, if I don't know, I will tell you, and we will find
out from someone who does. 

BTW, you fellas with the 88's, 98's, Cutlasses, and 442's, (distant cousins
albeit) there might be some motor crossovers with the 455's and Quadrajunks
in the 68 Toros and later. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The infection spreads,

Happy Toroing (Oldsmobiling to others),

Greg  (The Ebola guy) 

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:42:43 -0300
Subject: Re: 403 note 

At 14.09 03,30,96 -0400, you wrote:
>>           we're talking about 2-3% of the weight of the car.  The 
>>           G-body types that have trouble fitting in a big block 
>>           shouldn't even have to think twice...go for the 403, paint 
>>           it corporate blue, and tell the smog station inspector it's 
>>           a 307 (tell the competition it's a 260!).
>
>Hmmm.  Are they really that gullible (I hope)?  I'm thinking I may just
>try doing this very thing.  I guess from the outside, they really wouldn't
>look different would they?
>
>On a related note, does the 403/350/307 all use the same intake manifold?
>Does Holley, Edlebrock or anbody else make a TBI unit for these engines or
>maybe a TPI system with intake manifold?  (Suppose I'd have to wait till 
>after the emissions test for this though.)
>
>
>--Dan

that doesnt work here in Pennsylvania, which has a screwed up emissions
test.  the state leaves the inspection up to the mechanics to "interperet"
the law...and whats even worse, emissions is ONLY required for the counties
surrounding Pittsburg and Philadelphia...now that REALLY sucks
                         Zack
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\ "That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
 *************

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:02:06 -0300
Subject: Re: So Near and Yet So Far... 

At 07:25 PM 4/8/96 -0300, you wrote:
>Bob writes:
>
>>FYI here are the production figures for the SX (Y79) option:
>>
>>1970  
>>Holiday Coupe                                  6,404
>>Convertible                                          793 (We have one)
>>Total                                                 7,197
>
>Is there a break out for the 1970's with the W-32 365hp engine, for coupe
and convertible?
>John T. Blair  WA4OHZ          email:  jblair@nhr.com
>Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  495-8229
>
>48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget  65 Morgan 4/4 Series V
>     75 Bricklin SV1   77 Spitfire
>
>
Here are production figures for 1970 (this is from Year One's catalog).

Rallye 350 package
     F-85 Club Coupe                    1,020
     Cutlass Club Coupe                   160
     Cutlass S Holiday Coupe            2,367
     Total Production                   3,547

W-31 350 Package
     F-85 Club Coupe                      207
     Cutlass Club Coupe                   116
     Cutlass S Holiday Coupe            1,029
     Total Production                   1,352

Models equipped as 4-4-2's
     Sports Coupe                       1,688
     Holiday Coupe                     14,709
     Holiday Convertible                2,933
     Total Production                  19,330

Of the above 4-4-2's, the following were equipped with the W-30 4bbl engine.
     Sports Coupe                         262
     Holiday Coupe                      2,574
     Holiday Convertible                  264
     Total Production                   3,100

Pace Car Package
     Cutlass Holiday Convertible          358
     4-4-2 Holiday Convertible            268
     Total Production                     626

Y-79 SX Package                      
     Holiday Coupe                      6,404
     Holiday Convertible                  793
     Total Production                   7,197


There are not any production numbers listed for the W-32 option in 1970 in
Year One's catalog.  There are, however, numbers for the W-32 option in
1969.  They are:

Models equipped as 4-4-2's
     Sports Coupe                       2,984
     Holiday Coupe                     22,560
     Holiday Convertible                4,295
     Total Production                  29,567

Of the above 4-4-2's, the following were equipped with the W-32 4bbl engine.

     Sports Coupe                          25
     Holiday Coupe                        247
     Holiday Convertible                   25
     Total Production                     297

Of the above 4-4-2's, the following were equipped with the W-30 4bbl engine.
 
     Sports Coupe                         171
     Holiday Coupe                      1,097
     Holiday Convertible                  121
     Total Convertible                  1,389

W-31 350 Package

     F-85 Club Coupe                      212
     Cutlass Club Coupe                   106
     Cutlass S Holiday Coupe              569
     Cutlass S Holiday Convertible         26
     Total Production                     913

Hurst/Olds 455 Package

     Holiday Coupe                        912
     Holiday Convertible                    2
     Total Production                     914

Maybe this info helps...



  
- --
Dave Paulison
69 Cutlass Supreme

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:35:33 -0300
Subject: G-body tach update 

     When I first got my '84 H/O last year, I posted here about a problem 
     with the tachometer.  It would read about 1000rpm to high 
     occasionally.  Several people wrote back to say that they had the 
     exact same problem too.
     
     Well, I may have a solution for you, mine appears to be solved.  I 
     replaced the spark plug wires and coil over a month ago and the 
     problem went away and hasn't come back.  Granted the problem was 
     intermittent anyways, so this may be a fluke.  I used the Accell HEI 
     Supercoil and Accell wires as replacements.
     
     I'm betting it was probably the plug wires at fault.  The Accell wires 
     work great, and look good too, but they're not sized very well.  If 
     you have the tools, I recommend getting their universal kit and 
     cutting to fit rather than buying the precut custom ones.
     
     Tom L.
     

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:10:46 -0300
Subject: 1970 W32

I don't think the W32 was made after 1969, was it? My literature from 1970
talks about the W-30 455, W-31 350, no W-32, W-33 performance Delta 88,
and W-34 performance Toro. 

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Dave Voorhis <dave@armchair.mb.ca>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:30:30 -0300
Subject: El Toro!  (was Re: 1966 & 1967 Toronados [and] Thanks for the Welcome) 

It seems I have returned at exactly the right time!  I have two '67 Toros
(one a parts car) and a '66 Toro.  I was on the list up until about a month
ago, at which time some wierd Internet networking problem cut me off the list.

Now it's fixed, and I'm back.  Nice to see that this list has come to its
senses by becoming infected with Toro fever.  *grin*

Dave Voorhis
dave@armchair.mb.ca
http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 20:29:55 -0300
Subject: Re: 1970 W32

At 08:10 PM 4/8/96 -0300, you wrote:
>
>I don't think the W32 was made after 1969, was it? My literature from 1970
>talks about the W-30 455, W-31 350, no W-32, W-33 performance Delta 88,
>and W-34 performance Toro. 
>
>Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
>
>
>
I think you are correct, Greg.  I can't find any production figures for 1970
W-32's, but there were some made in 1969.  

- --
Dave Paulison
69 Cutlass Supreme

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:35:47 -0300
Subject: Re: wheels 

     Yup, 235/60R15 tires would work.  That's what I have on my '84 H/O and 
     it's about the widest tire you can fit comfortably on a 15x7" rim.  
     It'd be 20mm wider than the 215/65 tire (that width may or may not be 
     all tread, it depends upon the tire because the sidewall counts too in 
     that measurement).  If you're sure they fit under the well, go for it! 
      It's probably not there anymore, but the original tire size should be 
     on a sticker inside the driver-side doorjam.
     
     If you get the smaller diameter tire, remember what will happen to 
     your RPM's.  Depending upon what rear end ratio you have, you may or 
     may not want to do this.  A smaller diameter tire will have a smaller 
     contact patch too.
     
     Yes, there are different drive gears for the tranny.  There was a 
     discussion on here a while back for that, and someone mentioned they 
     were working on a computer program or spreadsheet or something like 
     that to help figure out which one you need.  Anyone remember??
     
     Tom L.

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: wheels
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    4/8/96 3:05 PM


I need to buy new tires for my 69 Cutlass.  I have Super Stock Two wheels on 
it (15x7), with 215/65/15 tires.  I would like to go to a little wider tire 
with a lower profile.  Would a 235/60/15 work?  I know it will fit under the 
fender, but how does it compare in diamater?  Or I could go to a 225/50/15, 
which would be a much smaller diameter tire, and lower the car somewhat. 
What do ya'll recommend?  The car originally had 14 inch rims w/hubcaps, but 
I don't know the original tire size on that 14 inch rim.  I'm not really 
worried about an accurate speedo, because the tranny was changed out twice 
while my father-in-law owned the car, so it is off anyway (the current 
tranny is out of a 76 Cutlass). Are different speedo gears available for the 
tranny (TH350)?  If so, how do I tell which ratio (or whatever?) I need?  
     
Geez, this is more complicated than I first thought...
     
     
Thanks
- --
Dave Paulison
69 Cutlass Supreme
     
     

------------------------------

From: gludlam@bcinet.net (Gregg Ludlam)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 21:31:22 -0300
Subject: Re: Toro Gear Oil? 

>Greg,
>
>Well, I would think that topping off would be ok, but as you say, a complete
>drain and refill is better in the long run.  The car I serviced was not
>front wheel drive, so draining the oil simply meant removing the back cover
>from the differential.  I don't know what completely draining the oil from a
>Toronado would entail.  I think the service manual would be the place to
>consult.  Good luck.

It's not the most PLEASANT job in the world, but it can be done without too
much trouble.  In fact, the toughest part is finding someone to order the
gasket for me!  I think that's what I'll do - thanks again for the advice!
And yes, I never leave home without MY '67 Service Manual!    :)


- -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy

------------------------------

From: gludlam@bcinet.net (Gregg Ludlam)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 21:33:44 -0300
Subject: Re: 1966 & 1967 Toronados 

>>We have had a small circle of Toro nuts sharing info on AOL and Prodigy for
>>about year now. I have been on this address for one night and I already love
>>it. This has a great potential for us Toronado addicts to share and spread
>>information to one another. I am also a member of the OCA , Toronado
>Chapter,
>>and the Oldsmobile Club of Wisconsin. 
>
>Oh, no, not another one... ;)

Yep, with WD-40 in hand, we're here to commandere the list...    :)


- -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 21:33:06 -0300
Subject: Re: wheels

At 12:35 PM 4/8/96 -0300, you wrote:
>
>     Yup, 235/60R15 tires would work.  That's what I have on my '84 H/O and 
>     it's about the widest tire you can fit comfortably on a 15x7" rim.  
>     It'd be 20mm wider than the 215/65 tire (that width may or may not be 
>     all tread, it depends upon the tire because the sidewall counts too in 
>     that measurement).  If you're sure they fit under the well, go for it! 
>      It's probably not there anymore, but the original tire size should be 
>     on a sticker inside the driver-side doorjam.
>     
>     If you get the smaller diameter tire, remember what will happen to 
>     your RPM's.  Depending upon what rear end ratio you have, you may or 
>     may not want to do this.  A smaller diameter tire will have a smaller 
>     contact patch too.
>     
>     Yes, there are different drive gears for the tranny.  There was a 
>     discussion on here a while back for that, and someone mentioned they 
>     were working on a computer program or spreadsheet or something like 
>     that to help figure out which one you need.  Anyone remember??
>     
>     Tom L.
>
Thanks for the help, Tom...I found that sticker (it's still there!).  Tire
sizes listed on it are:

    7.75 x 14  (standard)
    F 70 x 14  (optional)
    F 78 x 14  (optional)

I don't know how to translate those sizes to today's nomenclature for tire
sizes, though.

Thanks
- --
Dave Paulison
69 Cutlass Supreme

------------------------------

From: jsmith@radware.net (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 22:04:41 -0300
Subject: RE: A Flamed Toro!!! 

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>One of the muscle car magazines has coined the term "restification".  It
>means restoring the car as it was likely to have been back then using
>headers, slapper bars, aftermarket intakes, carbs, etc.  That's the way they
>really were and the way they should be remembered.
>
>Bob Handren
'>67 442 W-30 modified
'>70 Cutlass SX Convertible

Amen!!!


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------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 22:19:09 -0300
Subject: Re: wheels 

At 19.36 04,08,96 -0300, you wrote:
>I need to buy new tires for my 69 Cutlass.  I have Super Stock Two wheels on
>it (15x7), with 215/65/15 tires.  I would like to go to a little wider tire
>with a lower profile.  Would a 235/60/15 work?  I know it will fit under the

you can figure it out by dividing the 1st number by the second number...that
will giove you the hight of the tire off the rim...

>fender, but how does it compare in diamater?  Or I could go to a 225/50/15,
>which would be a much smaller diameter tire, and lower the car somewhat.
>What do ya'll recommend?  The car originally had 14 inch rims w/hubcaps, but
>I don't know the original tire size on that 14 inch rim.  I'm not really

well I think its probably 195-205/70 R14

>worried about an accurate speedo, because the tranny was changed out twice
>while my father-in-law owned the car, so it is off anyway (the current
>tranny is out of a 76 Cutlass). Are different speedo gears available for the

yes theer are MANY different gears for the 350...its been used in almost
every model...

>tranny (TH350)?  If so, how do I tell which ratio (or whatever?) I need?  

you will have to figure out the ratio that you need...but since i switched
majors in college from Pysics to Computer Science...i forget
     
>
>Geez, this is more complicated than I first thought...
>
>
>Thanks
>--
>Dave Paulison
>69 Cutlass Supreme

have fun!
                    Zack
                    91 Bravada Pickup truck
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\ "That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
 *************

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #142
********************************

