
oldsmobile-digest         Wednesday, 17 April 1996      Volume 01 : Number 150


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: lawrencr@kostabi.gdls.com (Robert Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:03:26 -0300
Subject: Re: Who is interested

> At 05:20 PM 4/13/96 -0300, you wrote:
> >I was just wondering how much interest there would be in splitting this
> >group into 2 (or more) categories such as performance and restoration or
> >whatever?

I vote:  No.

I would suscribe to both.  I'm sure some messages would just have to
be cross-posted, and I would end up with even more mail.

I suppose I would find a way to cope....

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Lawrence   | 1970 Oldsmobile 98 Convertible               .^.
lawrencr@gdls.com |  _________,~--,___________\____________     /9|8\
(810) 825-8007    |  |                |~    |        ___   |    \}|{/
Sterling Hts., MI |  =------(-o-)-------------------( o )--=      v

------------------------------

From: "Shawn M. Twomey" <stwom@ctp.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:40:58 -0300
Subject: charging paint 

>I once heard that some body shops charge paint and body panels, + -, or - +.
>Is this true, and how do you do it?

>Thanks Alot,
>Jeff Hunter
>jchunter@xcelco.on.ca

When I had my '84 painted, 3 of 4 tail-light bulbs and all my side markers
got fried when they charged my car!  Doh!  Then, when driving it home that
night, the oil light came on.  Oh, theres a good time to run your motor out
of oil, just after you shelled out big bucks to have the thing painted.
Luckily, no serious damage...still running two years later.  Those Buick V6s
run forever.

__________________________________________________________________________
Shawn M. Twomey     |  "No!  Try NOT!  Do, or do not.  There is no try."
stwom@ctp.com       |  -Yoda
__________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 12:38:48 -0300
Subject: Re: Who is interested 

>I was just wondering how much interest there would be in splitting this
>group into 2 (or more) categories such as performance and restoration or
>whatever?

This gets a bit long-winded below.

I think the bottom line here is that our signal-to-noise ratio is starting
to sink. I'm going to be real careful with my wording here and say that I
am as guilty as anyone in posting inane jokes or one-liners that are pretty
much content-free -- I kind of wish I had that stupid WD-40 nozzle joke 
back, among other things -- but there have been days when it did seem that 
there was a huge amount of new postings, yet when you actually slog through
the messages and read them, you'd find an awful lot of quoting and not a lot
of forward progress. I don't dislike reading a one-line wisecrack followup
in my Email, but it's a pain to page through four screenfuls of quotation to
get to it.

Let me suggest this: Let's _not_ try and split the list. Let's try and
reduce the noise level and/or bandwidth on the list we have, by doing this:

- -- Edit the quoted material. I know mailers like Eudora (which I'm using
here) will quote the entire previous message automatically, and it's easy
to forget the length of the original post when only part of it is visible
onscreen and you're hot to get your followup out the door, but please take
a moment to find the main point you're replying to and throw out the rest.

- -- Consider sending an Email reply. Yes, most of the time your answer will
be of general interest and probably should go to the whole list, but once
in a while you just know that Email would be better:

o  A bloody-obvious answer that was talked to death just last week
o  An answer which requires in-depth explanation that will bore everyone
   else to tears
o  Any answer that's going to be irrelevant to almost everyone (e.g.
   directions to your house)

I know this is hard to pin down to a set of rules, and with today's PCs
carrying tons o' storage space we're not talking waste of space like we
used to, but I think we can clean out some of the sludge we're wading
through at the moment without losing any of what attracted us to this
list in the first place. Look at what we do have:

- -- The ability to get answers to really obscure Oldsmobile questions
- -- Expert help from anywhere and everywhere
- -- A forum that, so far, has been mercifully free of spammers, scammers
   and junk advertising
- -- An Internet awareness and presence even better than Oldsmobile itself

All we need to do is take care of what we've got, not try to split it up.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Peg O'Connor" <peg@grove.ufl.EDU>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:49:11 -0300
Subject: Re: Historical Info

> And if you need the address to contact GM archives, here it is:
> 
> General Motors Of Canada Ltd.
> Atn/ Vintage Vehicules Services (dept. 163-005)
> 1908, Colonel Sam Drive
> Oshawa, Ontario
> L1H 8P7
> Canada

Is this the Canadian equivalent of the Olds History Center in Lansing?

------------------------------

From: urbanch@magi.com (Chris Urban)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:51:53 -0300
Subject: Re: Balancing an engine 

balancing is really a hard thing to factor into the longevity of an engine.
Obivously balanced engines will last longer. The thing to look for in an
engine that hasn't been balanced are a) Were the pistons,and valve train
components used close to stock weight ( chances are they were) b) How
smoothly does the engine run now at all speeds ( try to isolate any non
engine vibrations when trying to dtermine this) best way to examine this is
with the car in Park and watching and listenig carefully as you rev it.
Connect a Vacumn guage to a source and also watch how steady the vacum is at
a given RPM. and finally c) if the engine will not see speeds over 5700 rpm
tehn balancing is that much less important.



>Hey guys, I'm looking at buying a 71 442 that had its engine rebuilt around 10K
>ago.  Problem is that it was not balanced when rebuilt, although it appears 
>quality parts were used in the rebuild by a knowledgeable Olds mechanic.
>
>It was built as a fairly mild street machine (10:1 pistons, Blue Wolverine cam,
>Performer, Qjet, no headers, valve job, same rods) and I intend to use it that
>way--no racing
>or strip time really.  So, the question is, how serious is it that the engine 
>wasn't balanced?  Implications for longevity and smoothness???
>
>Todd Morris
>Still looking for a 442 4 sp and can't wait for Carlisle this weekend.....
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: "Shawn M. Twomey" <stwom@ctp.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:54:10 -0300
Subject: misc. '80s car stuff 

Just got my '85 442 out yesterday, got the front-end aligned and four new
tires...had to break them in :)   Question, have any of you with late-model
307s experienced a lot of whining from the engine/tranny?  Pitch and volume
increases with RPM, not wheel speed.  My dad thinks its the torque
converter, any other ideas?  Runs good.

Saw a cherry '84 H/O with 63K miles the other day.  Garaged, no rust, even
on the doors, all options, t-tops, power antenna, posi, original paint has
hardly a scratch, wheels look great, this is a big rarity in Michigan.  How
much?  $6500.  Oh, god, now I've got to buy it.  Asked the guy if he had
anyone else-"Well, there was somebody trying to get the money, but the first
one to get the cash gets it."  This is Friday night.  Call a bunch of
people, line up the money, plan on going to the bank Sat. morning to get a
cashiers check.  Call him back, says "Well, this guy left me $20, said he'd
let me know tomorrow."  Shit.  Told him if he didn't buy it, I would.  Had
trouble sleeping that night, called him Sat., of course it was sold.  $20
and he gets the car.  Ah well, he got there first.  Coudn't afford it anyway.

My '84 Gutlass is a "Special Edition."  has most options avail, except it
has the V6, special badges on the landau top and inside, I just found out
that the cloth on the bench seats was avail. only for this package and was
normally found in 98s and so forth.  My car was grey (is black now).  Does
anybody know anything else about these "Special Edition" packages?  What
years, what colors, how many made?  Thanks.

__________________________________________________________________________
Shawn M. Twomey     |  "No!  Try NOT!  Do, or do not.  There is no try."
stwom@ctp.com       |  -Yoda
__________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

From: urbanch@magi.com (Chris Urban)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 13:55:19 -0300
Subject: Re: Who is interested 

Andrew I couldn't agree more. Well said! Any one else?


>>I was just wondering how much interest there would be in splitting this
>>group into 2 (or more) categories such as performance and restoration or
>>whatever?
>
>This gets a bit long-winded below.
>
>I think the bottom line here is that our signal-to-noise ratio is starting
>to sink. I'm going to be real careful with my wording here and say that I
>am as guilty as anyone in posting inane jokes or one-liners that are pretty
>much content-free -- I kind of wish I had that stupid WD-40 nozzle joke 
>back, among other things -- but there have been days when it did seem that 
>there was a huge amount of new postings, yet when you actually slog through
>the messages and read them, you'd find an awful lot of quoting and not a lot
>of forward progress. I don't dislike reading a one-line wisecrack followup
>in my Email, but it's a pain to page through four screenfuls of quotation to
>get to it.
>
>Let me suggest this: Let's _not_ try and split the list. Let's try and
>reduce the noise level and/or bandwidth on the list we have, by doing this:
>
>-- Edit the quoted material. I know mailers like Eudora (which I'm using
>here) will quote the entire previous message automatically, and it's easy
>to forget the length of the original post when only part of it is visible
>onscreen and you're hot to get your followup out the door, but please take
>a moment to find the main point you're replying to and throw out the rest.
>
>-- Consider sending an Email reply. Yes, most of the time your answer will
>be of general interest and probably should go to the whole list, but once
>in a while you just know that Email would be better:
>
>o  A bloody-obvious answer that was talked to death just last week
>o  An answer which requires in-depth explanation that will bore everyone
>   else to tears
>o  Any answer that's going to be irrelevant to almost everyone (e.g.
>   directions to your house)
>
>I know this is hard to pin down to a set of rules, and with today's PCs
>carrying tons o' storage space we're not talking waste of space like we
>used to, but I think we can clean out some of the sludge we're wading
>through at the moment without losing any of what attracted us to this
>list in the first place. Look at what we do have:
>
>-- The ability to get answers to really obscure Oldsmobile questions
>-- Expert help from anywhere and everywhere
>-- A forum that, so far, has been mercifully free of spammers, scammers
>   and junk advertising
>-- An Internet awareness and presence even better than Oldsmobile itself
>
>All we need to do is take care of what we've got, not try to split it up.
>
>Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
>Datalogics, Inc.
>441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
>Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:09:35 -0300
Subject: misc. stuffs

> joe ferrero
> 13 rorbach lane
> geneseo, ny 14454
> (716) 243-3437
> about that "cheap engine" ....   does it have any casting #'s viis there
> a chance it is still in the car?  if so are there any useable parts for
> sale ?   (ie the car passenger front fender, fender skirts, back up
> lights etc.?)
> if so please respond for any of these "?"'s.
> thanks.       --joe (the college student)

I dunno, spilled my guts about it last time. I'd have to go visit WHIP again to
find out more... will do that later.
- --Chris--

>      passenger's side front of the rear axle and look it up in a book.  I'm
>      fairly sure the upcoming Old's FAQ will contain the codes you need
>      too.
>
>      NOS stands for "New Old Stock".  I was confused for a while too,
>      thinking it "obviously can't mean N2O".  New Old Stock is orignal
>      factory parts for your car that were manufactured years ago but have
>      been lying around on shelves collecting dust since then.
>      Tom L.

This is the sort of thing that the FAQ needs to address... Chris

> It depends on a lot of factors a) what type of seal b) are the guides stock
> or not and c) if not what is the clearance from the bottom of the keeper to
> the top of the seal. With stock components there is usually only 0.510 " of
> distance in this area. Solution cut the guides down, very easy and then you
> can run as big a cam as you like.

Oh, yah, I forgot to mention that I had cut the guides down to shorten them and
to accept the teflon seals... That is usually the limiting factor. -Chris-
  Don't even bother with them Splitfires, dude, if you want REAL power, there's
only one way to go...... FUEL-LINE MAGNET! Ionize the fuel molecules! Oh, and
the air filter 'supercharger' thingy, too... Yeah, that's the ticket! :)

More FAQ Fodder:

>           The BOP 215 is a really neat engine developed before its
>           time.  This is actually a Buick-developed engine - it shares
- --snip--

> I have tried cross-referencing parts with 1968-72 C*evy Monte Carlo's and
> Chevelle's, Pontiac Lemans, and Buick Skylark (all A-bodies), but, alas, my
> car is a four door (bummer...), which makes it very hard to find interior
> trim pieces, door panels, and window parts.  But, heck, it's an Olds; it
> runs as good as any two door...and better than _ANY_ C*evy out there...
> Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme

Vent window regualators? I got 'em. email me with yer needs, not on the list,
eh? wittchri@pilot.msu.edu  -Chris-

- --tons of SB heads info--
> This still does not answer my question...I have a 1969 Oldsmobile 350 with
> #5 heads (not 5A).  The list above has nothing small block earlier than
> 1971.  What is the combustion chamber volume of #5 small block heads??
> Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme

Patience, patience... in fact, the snipped info seems to have been bitten by
the typo bug as well... the #7 heads had wrong cc?? Anyhow, more thourough info
is forthcoming, including the real burning question on everyone's mind: "What
CRatio will I get if I stick [whatever] heads on my [whatever] small block?"
  btw, the answer to yer Question is "64"
- -Chris-

> I am still trying to figure out why my converter is screaming. So far, Iv'e
> had no help with my problem.  ):
> Greg (T-Toro)

Uh, cuz it's snafu'd? Even if it or the front pump is gone south, all you need
do is replace that part, Greg, oughtn't run $700, if you can do the engine
extraction & replacement yourself... -Chris-

- --posi/ open diff ID--
> Where exactly do I look for the number?? On the diff. housing, or on the
> shaft on the passenger side; up high, or on the bottom?
> Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme

Dave, being in FLA, this might work for you: the ID is usually on the RH tube,
within a foot of the carrier [center part, pig, etc.], on the front side or
top. However, the key word is *usually*. If it's not there, look all over both
axle tubes. Digits usually 1/4" tall... the usual diff. is SC, the 3.08 open.
  Here in MI, any such codes are long since rusted away, no point in even
looking for them, so we just count revolutions to determine ratio, and do a
hand-test for posi. -Chris-

> > > > Im still looking for a 69 delta 88.  i need info about it and pictures i
> > > > possible.  thanks
> I am parting it out because since it came into my family's towing yard,
> the only kind of title it can get now is a "rebuilt salvage" title. It is

Well, not exactly... if I were to say buy the whole vehicle, haul it here to
MI, I could get a nice title for it easily. States differ greatly, and don't
share info much. With newer cars, this can be quite a scandal, as lemons or
totalled cars just get re-titled in another state as OK cars.... -Chris-

> Subject: JC Whitney
> Just wondering...has anybody ever had a problem with JC Whitney
> service/quality, etc.?  I was thinking of ordering some engine parts from
> them.  I've never ordered from them before, and wanted to kinda check them
> out before I did.  My brother-in-law ordered some parts from them a few
> years ago, and as I recall, I think most parts he ordered were name brand,
> though there are not a lot of name brands mentioned in their catalog...
> Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme

My cam bearings came: CL77 full-round, finest kind... Center link- TRW part...
finest kind. It does tend to vary though. Don't forget Summit/ Jegs/ PAW, too.

Went to assemble the heads Friday- oops, what's this? PAW sent me the wrong
retainers, these take 10 degree locks! No such locks nor proper retainers in
town, so gotta wait 'til monday & call PAW to return the parts... then I notice
a valve is missing too, sheesh, dig out another... have it turned...

The good news: scrap yard had a 4-speed trans today, still turns & goes into
each gear, got that. Saw a 1976 350 engine with #10 heads, and a weird carb
that looked like a Qjet but was really just a "Dual-jet"... back 'bores' area
is blocked off by a cast-in plate. Heck, for $25, I might have to take that
engine just to have that weird carb and intake, and a show-n-tell set of #10
heads... Hey, 57cc, great for cmpression on a oh, 403... if the ports are amply
sized...
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 06:38:04 -0300
Subject: Re: misc. '80s car stuff 

     >Just got my '85 442 out yesterday, got the front-end aligned and four 
     >new tires...had to break them in :)

     There's a funny ad currently running on the radio here for an auto 
     parts store.  Basically it's talking about the fact that it's spring 
     and all the gearheads can come out after being trapped in the house 
     for the winter restifying the toaster and detailing the family vacuum. 
      Quite funny.
     
     >Question, have any of you with late-model 307s experienced a lot of 
     >whining from the engine/tranny?  Pitch and volume increases with RPM, 

     My '84 H/O makes a slight whining from the tranny when in first gear,   
     very slight in second, other than that there's nothing.

     >Saw a cherry '84 H/O with 63K miles the other day.

     I think I saw this one listed in Hemmings last night.

     >Garaged, no rust, even on the doors, all options, t-tops, power 

     Are the doors rusting on these a particular problem area?  Mine isn't   
     rusting there, but I don't see many others, and It'd be nice to know of 
     the problem areas to keep clean and keep a watch on.

     >My '84 Gutlass is a "Special Edition."  has most options avail,       
     >except it has the V6, special badges on the landau top and inside, I 
     >just found out that the cloth on the bench seats was avail. only for 
     
     My '84 H/O also has a cloth interior.  So did my '79 Supreme 
     Broughman.
     
     Allright... who was it that just posted a "me too" reply to Andrew's 
     wonderful post about trimming things and quoted the whole darn thing 
     to do so?  What's a suitable punishment?  Maybe make him change the 
     spark plugs on a warm SB *hevy?
     
     Tom L.
     

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:18:29 -0300
Subject: Re: misc. '80s car stuff 

>     Are the doors rusting on these a particular problem area?  Mine isn't   
>     rusting there, but I don't see many others, and It'd be nice to know of 
>     the problem areas to keep clean and keep a watch on.

The bottom seams of the doors rust where the outer door skin folds over
the edge (and I guess is spot-welded). Once the seam has rusted thoroughly
along its entire length, the outer door skin tends to let go and flap in
the breeze. This (along with the door glass, whose front and rear track
lower mounts may let go at the same time) is what contributes to that
wonderful THUMP-whubba-whubba sound you get on old GM cars when you slam 
the door and some of the loose parts keep shuddering afterwards.

>     Allright... who was it that just posted a "me too" reply to Andrew's 
>     wonderful post about trimming things and quoted the whole darn thing 
>     to do so?

No comment.  ;-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Scott D Ballentine <sb7k+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 15:30:46 -0300
Subject: Re: misc. '80s car stuff

Excerpts from oldsmail: 16-Apr-96 Re: misc. '80s car stuff by "Tom
Lentz"@teknon.com 
>      Are the doors rusting on these a particular problem area?  Mine
isn't  >      rusting there, but I don't see many others, and It'd be
nice to know
>      of the problem areas to keep clean and keep a watch on.

I think they are supposed to be a big problem.  The doors on my '80 are
starting to get pretty bad along the bottom, yet the rest of the car is
rust-free (except for the back bumper), which is pretty good for a PA
car.  I've been told the the frame, right behind the rear axle, is also
supposed to be a trouble spot.


    -Scott Ballentine
     sb7k@andrew.cmu.edu
     Carnegie Mellon University
     School of Computer Science

------------------------------

From: "Schroedinger's Clint" <clint@digex.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 15:45:58 -0300
Subject: More '80s stuff...

Does anyone know how to remove the chrome trim on the edges of the wheel
wells on the G-body cars?   I assume it would be pretty easy, but I
haven't looked to see.  Planning on removing it and the Vinyl half top
this afternoon/evening.   

Speaking of which... any tips/warnings???????   

Thanks for the advice in advance...
Clint

                          _________
Rocket Boy!             _|_ _\\____|_     '81 Cutlass Supreme
clint@darklair.com       |___//____|            by Oldsmobile

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:57:25 -0300
Subject: Re: More '80s stuff... 

>Does anyone know how to remove the chrome trim on the edges of the wheel
>wells on the G-body cars?   I assume it would be pretty easy, but I
>haven't looked to see.

The wheel well moldings are usually aluminum held on with self-tapping
screws very similar to the interior screws. Just remove the screws and
the molding will lift right off.

Okay, right, and the Chilton manual says, "Step 1: Remove engine."  :-)
Yes, getting the screws to crack loose is the tricky part, especially
if they've been on there for years. Try a little wire brush or awl to
get debris out of the screw head, then use a _really_ good-fitting
screwdriver to get a solid grip, and it should crack loose. I think a
#2 Phillips screwdriver is the best size, and if the wheel is off the
car so you can get a big screwdriver on it, the Phillips head tip of
my Skil SuperTwist screwdriver does not take "No" for an answer. I don't
actually use the motor in it when trying to crack the screw loose; I just
twist the whole thing manually because the large body of the power 
screwdriver gives you really good leverage.

If that doesn't work, drill off the head(s) of the screw(s), then use a
ViseGrip to twist out the stub(s) after you've got the trim off.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:05:56 -0300
Subject: 47? Olds engine...

OK, the feller with the Old-time Olds engine in Montana is

Recluse [nickname], email:
denis@vesper.emcmt.edu

He also mentioned a '70 Cutlass S soon to be available, with a 400 Pontiac ??
motor in it. WHo knows, maybe it's a rare  E-400 Olds engine... give him a
holler if interested.
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Scott R Clark <mickeyd@selway.umt.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:13:52 -0300
Subject: AAAAA! Whitney Hell! Was Re: JC Whitney

> Just wondering...has anybody ever had a problem with JC Whitney
> service/quality, etc.?  I was thinking of ordering some engine parts from
> them.  I've never ordered from them before, and wanted to kinda check them
> out before I did.  My brother-in-law ordered some parts from them a few
> years ago, and as I recall, I think most parts he ordered were name brand,
> though there are not a lot of name brands mentioned in their catalog...
> 
	Back in high school I was restoring a 71 Volks Super Beetle, and I 
bought a ton of stuff from JCW.  What a bunch of crap!  All of the soft 
stuff cracked about 2 months after I put it in (trunk & deck lid seals, 
door seals, etc), the carpet never really fit, the bumpers rusted after 
after about three months, the pedal pads had to be "cut to fit" etc 
etc.  Oh, and my dist. cap didn't fit (yes, it was the right one, it 
was just junk) and the plug wires made it run worse than my 20 year old 
VW originals!  

	On top of that the stuff took about 3 months to arrive, and when 
it did they left some stuff out.  Unfortunatly, it had been so long since I 
placed the order I forgot just what it was they left out!  

	I'll admit that this was a while ago, so both the quality and 
service might have improved, and it does sound like some of the people on 
the list have been getting actual "name brand" goods (as opposed to the 
generic Pakistani stuff I aparently got).  I don't know, but if I was 
going to order from them today, I would probibly make sure it was a name 
brand, and get the overnight shipping!


			Scott
		1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98  

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:14:59 -0300
Subject: Re: E-head cc, misc.

At 09:09 AM 4/16/96 -0300, you wrote:

 most cc figures from
>Mondello's catalog, which is known to have the occasional typo or just plain
>lack of information or even misinformation...
>
>
>MODEL   YEAR            CASTING #       ID      DISPLACEMENT
>
>330     1964            3317            5A      67 c.c.
>330     1965           3317            5A      67 c.c.
>330     1966           3317            5A      67 c.c.
>330     1967           3317            5A      67 c.c.
>330     1967           3317            5A      67 c.c.
>330     1967           3317            5A      67 c.c.
>330     1967           3317            5A      67 c.c.
>
>307     80-85           3317            5A      67 c.c.
>307     86              0142            7A      64
>350     71              409-147         7       70
>350     72              409-147         7a      70*^
>350     71-76           411-929         8       81
>350     77-80           554-716         3A      75
>403     77-79           554-717         4A      83
>
Obviously lack of information...there is no listing for a 68-70 small blocks.
- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:17:47 -0300
Subject: Re: E-head cc, misc *comp;ete*

At 09:33 AM 4/16/96 -0300, you wrote:

>> MODEL   YEAR            CASTING #       ID      DISPLACEMENT
>>
>> 330     1964                            1       ?? c.c.
>> 330     1965                            2       ?? c.c.
>> 330     1966            389394          3       60 c.c.
>> 330     1967            394497          4       60 c.c.
>>
>> 350     1968-9          397742          5       64 c.c.
>> 350     1970            403859          6       64 c.c.
>> 350     71              409147          7       64
>> 350     72              409147          7a      64*^
>> 350     73-76           411929          8       79
>>
>> 350     76              550362          10      57
>> 350     77-80           554716          3A      75
>> 403     77-79           554717          4A      83
>> 307     80-85           3317            5A      67 c.c.
>> 307     86-90           0142            7A      64
>>
OK,  there it is...

Thanks
- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:21:26 -0300
Subject: SB head swap

>From the spreadsheet, we examine what becomes of the compression ratio of a SB
Olds if we swap heads from some other SB Olds engine...



Eng Head Head Stock *CVolume*   >>New CRatio, w/ head of chamber size: [cc]<<
CID ID   cc    CR   ci     cc     57    60    64    67    75    79    83
330  3   60   9.0   5.16  84.5   9.29  9.00  8.64  8.39  7.79  7.53  7.29
330  4   60   9.0   5.16  84.5   9.29  9.00  8.64  8.39  7.79  7.53  7.29
350  5   64   9.0   5.47  89.6   9.68  9.37  9.00  8.74  8.13  7.85  7.60
350  6   64   9.0   5.47  89.6   9.68  9.37  9.00  8.74  8.13  7.85  7.60
350  7   64   8.2   6.08  99.6   8.74  8.50  8.20  7.99  7.48  7.26  7.05
350  7A  64   8.2   6.08  99.6   8.74  8.50  8.20  7.99  7.48  7.26  7.05
350  8   79   8.0   6.25  102.4  9.91  9.59  9.20  8.93  8.28  8.00  7.74
350  10  57   8.0   6.25  102.4  8.00  7.80  7.55  7.38  6.95  6.76  6.58
260  2A  ??   8.0   4.64  76.1   --can't do it w/0 head cc info--
350  3A  75   8.0   6.25  102.4  9.49  9.20  8.84  8.59  8.00  7.74  7.49
403  4A  83   8.2   7.00  114.7  10.3  10.0  9.63  9.37  8.74  8.46  8.20
307  5A  67   8.2   5.33  87.3   9.13  8.83  8.46  8.20  7.60  7.33  7.09
307  7A  64   8.2   5.33  87.3   8.83  8.55  8.20  7.96  7.39  7.14  6.91
                       Head ID:   10    3-4   4-7   5A    3A    8     4A

A large number of assumptions have been made in the above. Do NOT take this as
gospel, just yet. First off, the heads' cc numbers are from Mondello info, not
from personal measurements- subject to typos, etc. Then, since I did not know
the exact CRatio for all engines, like the #10 head 350, I assumed about 8.0 or
8.2:1 was a good start. With these assumptions, the method was:

CRatio == volume at BDC/ Vol at TDC, by definition.
CV == 'Clearance Volume' =  all volume at TDC = head volume + gasket vol.
       + deck clearance vol. + piston dish vol, etc.
PSV == Piston Swept Volume = engine CID / # cylinders.
Vol. at BDC = CV + PSV

Thus, mathematically, CV = (PSV) / (CR-1.0) which gets us the total clearance
volume listed in the 5th & 6th columns [ci & cc resp.]

New CV = Old CV - Old head's chamber size + new head's chamber size. EZ!

New CRatio = (PSV/ New CV) + 1.0

Heh, the only engine the #8 heads will give a CR over 8.0 to is the 403!

More assumptions: that gasket volume did not change [not very realistic until
after they started using the thick gaskets we see today...]

There's prolly a few errors in there; I welcome comments, additions, etc.
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:30:34 -0300
Subject: Re: Who is interested

At 12:38 PM 4/16/96 -0300, you wrote:

>
>Let me suggest this: Let's _not_ try and split the list. Let's try and
>reduce the noise level and/or bandwidth on the list we have, by doing this:
>
>-- Edit the quoted material.
>All we need to do is take care of what we've got, not try to split it up.
>
>Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
>Datalogics, Inc.
>441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
>Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473
>
>
Brava!!
- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: Scott R Clark <mickeyd@selway.umt.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:31:00 -0300
Subject: Rocket Launch and stuff.

	Last night I was digging through some of my old car magazines when I 
found some Olds related stuff in a Popular SBC/Camaro/Mustang Rodding 
magazine.  It's out of the May 1992 issue.  What really cought my eye is 
this thing about a block from Olds motorsports.  I'll just quote 
the magazine here...
	

				ROCKET LAUNCH

	The way Olds' Motorsports are taking off, the Rocket name doesn't 
seem as out of place as it has in recent years.  The Good Olds Guy's 
latest, is a competition cast-iron Rocket Block based on the GM 
corporate small block V8.  Its camshaft is raised .380 to provide 
additional clearence for a long-stroke crankshaft.  It uses larger 
big-block V8 camshaft bearings that enhance camshaft strength and 
reliability.  The oil pan rails are spread .800-inch to clear a 
4.125-inch stroke crankshaft without modification.  The block has extra 
thick siamesed cylinder walls and reinforced decks.  Standard and taller 
deck heights are available.  A revised oiling system directs oil to the 
main bearings first.  Steel main bearing caps are factory installed and 
the three intermediate caps have splayed outer bolts (it's a 4 bolt 
block) The block has dual starter mounts, a mechanical fuel pump boss and 
provisions for side and front engine mounts.  Ordering information is 
available from:
	Oldsmobile Motorsports,
	920 Townsend St. MS
	1045, Lansing, MI
	48921;
	(517) 885-1651


	Has anybody ever heard of/seen such an animal?  It looks pretty 
stout with thoes splayed mains, and everything.  Too bad it's based on 
the "corporate" small block.  :(

	
	
				Scott
			1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98

------------------------------

From: David Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:31:51 -0300
Subject: Re: Historical Info

At 01:49 PM 4/16/96 -0300, you wrote:

>Is this the Canadian equivalent of the Olds History Center in Lansing?
>
>
Could someone post the address or phone number for the Olds History Center
in Lansing??

Thanks!!
- --
Dave Paulison             Melbourne, FL          69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: "Jason P. Labay" <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:33:18 -0300
Subject: Re: misc. stuffs

> 
> > > > > Im still looking for a 69 delta 88.  i need info about it and pictures i
> > > > > possible.  thanks
> > I am parting it out because since it came into my family's towing yard,
> > the only kind of title it can get now is a "rebuilt salvage" title. It is
> 
> Well, not exactly... if I were to say buy the whole vehicle, haul it here to
> MI, I could get a nice title for it easily. States differ greatly, and don't
> share info much. With newer cars, this can be quite a scandal, as lemons or
> totalled cars just get re-titled in another state as OK cars.... -Chris-
> 

Chris, then I CAN get the "rebuilt salvage" off my titles? My Z/28 has Rebuilt Salvage 
on it and the car looks brand new. What I really don't like is that my 75 Hurst/Olds has 
a rebuilt salvage title. Any suggestions as to how to get those two dirty words off. I 
can take a 1996 car, never hit with 0 miles out of our yard, but it will get a "rebuilt 
salvage" title going by Ohio law :(
- -- 
Jason P. Labay (Akron, Ohio)				  z28cfi@gwis.com
Grad Student in Sport Administration at Kent State U.     f-list since: 7/95
1988 Camaro Z/28 Cross-Fire Injection 305
1975 Hurst/Olds W-25

------------------------------

From: "Bruce D. Brumm" <bdbrumm@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:44:36 -0300
Subject: Re: More '80s stuff...

Schroedinger's Clint wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know how to remove the chrome trim on the edges of the wheel
> wells on the G-body cars? 

Quite simple (unless rusted :) )-- just use a phillips screwdriver.


> I assume it would be pretty easy, but I
> haven't looked to see.  Planning on removing it and the Vinyl half top
> this afternoon/evening.

Please let us know how it goes; I am planning on doing the same thing to my
'86 Salon.  I'm planning on repainting it like a 442 and adding 15" 442
chrome wheels.

Vinyl top removal tips would be great for the FAQ...

- -- 

Bruce D. Brumm (bdbrumm@ix.netcom.com)
Network & Systems Administrator
LDM Technologies, Inc.
Troy, MI

'84 Cutlass Supreme 307-Y
'86 Cutlass Salon 307-Y

------------------------------

From: "Bruce D. Brumm" <bdbrumm@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:48:04 -0300
Subject: Re: misc. '80s car stuff

Tom Lentz wrote:
 
>My '84 H/O makes a slight whining from the tranny when in first gear,
>very slight in second, other than that there's nothing.
> 
>      Tom L.

My '86 Salon (th200-4r) does the same.  Haven't decided if it is
actually a tight alternator belt or the torque converter.  My hood
insulation pad is gone/missing so I get extra noise. 

- -- 

Bruce D. Brumm (bdbrumm@ix.netcom.com)
Network & Systems Administrator
LDM Technologies, Inc.
Troy, MI

'84 Cutlass Supreme 307-Y
'86 Cutlass Salon 307-Y

------------------------------

From: lawrencr@kostabi.gdls.com (Robert Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:51:32 -0300
Subject: Re: Historical Info

> From oldsmobile-owner@ccn.cs.dal.ca Tue Apr 16 15:41 EDT 1996
> X-Sender: dpauliso@post.metrolink.net
> X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> To: oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
> Could someone post the address or phone number for the Olds History Center
> in Lansing??
> 
> Thanks!!

>From the FAQ...

- ----- Oldsmobile History Center -----
920 Townsend ST
Lansing, Michigan 48921-0001

Write to the Oldsmobile History Center, tell them the year and model of 
your Olds, and they'll send you, among other things, a price list.  On 
it will be a list of all the options available for your car, the codes 
(weird looking numbers like B02 and C7), and their prices.

The History Center can also provide, for cars built from 1977 on, a copy 
of the original selling invoice for your car, which will be able to tell 
you the dealer from which the car was originally purchased and what 
options were on the car when it left the factory.

... I have the phone number, but it's not handy right now.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Lawrence   | 1970 Oldsmobile 98 Convertible               .^.
lawrencr@gdls.com |  _________,~--,___________\____________     /9|8\
(810) 825-8007    |  |                |~    |        ___   |    \}|{/
Sterling Hts., MI |  =------(-o-)-------------------( o )--=      v

------------------------------

From: "Bruce D. Brumm" <bdbrumm@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 20:01:39 -0300
Subject: 1984 Shop Manuals...

FYI:

I have the complete 1984 Oldsmobile shop manuals if anyone wants specific
information for that model year.  They include all models (Delta 88,
Nintey Eight, Firenza :(, Cutlass, etc...)  I also have the Fisher Body
Manual for that year.
These manuals have been invaluable for me so far.
I can fax pages, e-mail info, etc.  I'm NOT going to sell them, however. 
:)

- -- 

Bruce D. Brumm (bdbrumm@ix.netcom.com)
Network & Systems Administrator
LDM Technologies, Inc.
Troy, MI

'84 Cutlass Supreme 307-Y
'86 Cutlass Salon 307-Y

------------------------------

From: johnspr@ix.netcom.com (JOHN PRESTON )
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 17:14:08 -0300
Subject: Re: More '80s stuff...

You wrote: 
>
>>Does anyone know how to remove the chrome trim on the edges of the 
wheel
>>wells on the G-body cars?   I assume it would be pretty easy, but I
>>haven't looked to see.
>
>The wheel well moldings are usually aluminum held on with self-tapping
>screws very similar to the interior screws. Just remove the screws and
>the molding will lift right off.
>
>Okay, right, and the Chilton manual says, "Step 1: Remove engine."  
:-)
>Yes, getting the screws to crack loose is the tricky part, especially
>if they've been on there for years. Try a little wire brush or awl to
>get debris out of the screw head, then use a _really_ good-fitting
>screwdriver to get a solid grip, and it should crack loose. I think a
>#2 Phillips screwdriver is the best size, and if the wheel is off the
>car so you can get a big screwdriver on it, the Phillips head tip of
>my Skil SuperTwist screwdriver does not take "No" for an answer. I 
don't
>actually use the motor in it when trying to crack the screw loose; I 
just
>twist the whole thing manually because the large body of the power 
>screwdriver gives you really good leverage.
>
>If that doesn't work, drill off the head(s) of the screw(s), then use 
a
>ViseGrip to twist out the stub(s) after you've got the trim off.
>

One trick you can use on those stuck sheetmetal screws holding trim is 
to give a healthy hammer tap to the screwdriver while inserted in the 
screw.  Since its a sheetmetal type, the tap will dislodge much of the 
corrosion holding it; also try spraying from the backside with a Liquid 
Wrench (penetrating oil) type of product.

Unfortunately those sheetmental screws are often a hardened or 
stainless type which cannot be drilled out in any way.  This is the 
time to get out the die grinder and grind off either the head or 
threads (whichever is most accessible) so the remainder can be removed 
from the opposite side easily.

------------------------------

From: "Bill\"The Chick\" Ansell" <wansell@lynx.dac.neu.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 17:24:51 -0300
Subject: Re: misc. '80s car stuff

>  
>      >Question, have any of you with late-model 307s experienced a lot of 
>      >whining from the engine/tranny?  Pitch and volume increases with RPM, 
> 
>      My '84 H/O also makes a slight whining from the tranny when in first 
       gear, very slight in second, other than that there's nothing.
> 
>      >Are the doors rusting on these a particular problem area? Mine isn't   
>      rusting there, but I don't see many others, and It'd be nice to know of 
>      the problem areas to keep clean and keep a watch on.
>      
>      My 84' H/O has rot on the bottom of the doors(The Original owner 
       never garaged it!) Other than that it is clean... This reminded
       me.. Does anyone know of any 81'--88' rust/dent free doors for my
       car? Preferably ones without the bottom chrome moldings..
       Thanks
	Bill Ansell
	wansell@lynx.dac.neu.edu
>       84' H/O

------------------------------

From: urbanch@magi.com (Chris Urban)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 18:12:16 -0300
Subject: Re: Rocket Launch and stuff. 

Sounds like the DRCE Olds block which is a lot more Chevy than Olds.


>
>	Last night I was digging through some of my old car magazines when I 
>found some Olds related stuff in a Popular SBC/Camaro/Mustang Rodding 
>magazine.  It's out of the May 1992 issue.  What really cought my eye is 
>this thing about a block from Olds motorsports.  I'll just quote 
>the magazine here...
>	
>
>				ROCKET LAUNCH
>
>	The way Olds' Motorsports are taking off, the Rocket name doesn't 
>seem as out of place as it has in recent years.  The Good Olds Guy's 
>latest, is a competition cast-iron Rocket Block based on the GM 
>corporate small block V8.  Its camshaft is raised .380 to provide 
>additional clearence for a long-stroke crankshaft.  It uses larger 
>big-block V8 camshaft bearings that enhance camshaft strength and 
>reliability.  The oil pan rails are spread .800-inch to clear a 
>4.125-inch stroke crankshaft without modification.  The block has extra 
>thick siamesed cylinder walls and reinforced decks.  Standard and taller 
>deck heights are available.  A revised oiling system directs oil to the 
>main bearings first.  Steel main bearing caps are factory installed and 
>the three intermediate caps have splayed outer bolts (it's a 4 bolt 
>block) The block has dual starter mounts, a mechanical fuel pump boss and 
>provisions for side and front engine mounts.  Ordering information is 
>available from:
>	Oldsmobile Motorsports,
>	920 Townsend St. MS
>	1045, Lansing, MI
>	48921;
>	(517) 885-1651
>
>
>	Has anybody ever heard of/seen such an animal?  It looks pretty 
>stout with thoes splayed mains, and everything.  Too bad it's based on 
>the "corporate" small block.  :(
>
>	
>	
>				Scott
>			1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: jblair@nhr.com (John T. Blair)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 18:23:38 -0300
Subject: Re: '68 Toro Torque Converter 

>Anyone with Tranny/Converter knowlege?
>
>I fear the worst here........as I am weak when it comes to trannies and
>tourqe coverters.
>
>The other day I was driving my "68 Toro around and heard a slight "whine"
>occasionally. It came and went, came and went, with no rhyme or reason (or so
>it seemed). It never did it at an idle, and the car shifted well and snappy
>through all gears.
>
>As it got a bit worse, I  began to notice that it torque converter was always
>on "high turbo pitch" as I will call it. The motor was running at high RPM's
>relative to speed, and the whine became worse and more noticable. Still
>shifting fine though.
>
>I parked it. Drove next morning and was fine, until the car was up to
>temperature. After about 30 miles into a trip, the whine came back (now
>really noticable) and was throught out the power band and gear selection (all
>the time the gearbox is still shifting well and at appropriate speeds). 
>
>I HAD to go to shop yesterday (60 mile trip) as I hooked that 67 up there.
>Jesus, was she whining! In 3rd gear I was pulling high revs but solid gear
>connection as she responded when I need to accelerate. 
>
>I looked at tranny fluid (was kinda shitty) pale pink as opposed to red and
>very thin. Well, I remember NEVER changing the fluid in this car, ( I know
>dummy me!). As you know, you can't "change" Transmission Fluid on a Toro. You
>have to suck out 2-3 quarts out of filler and replace, drive around a bit,
>resuck another 2-3 quarts etc....  until you have diluted in the new fluid
>(you can really never get a complete change) this way, but what other choice
>do you have?
>
>This morning I did just that. (only had 6 quarts of Dextron though) After
>doing so, she ran  like a champ! Super quite, nice, tight, snappy shifting
>and power! ( I drove it for about 5 miles)
>
>I leave the shop this afternoon to come home...she runs great...until...I get
>about 40 miles into trip...The whine slowly, came back. Although quieter
>without as much high turboing (turbos at full pitch). 
>
>Question: Shall I re-suck another 6-10 quarts out and replace, or should I
>drive this pig to nearest bone yard. Or is there a way to deactivate (bypass
>the converter to shut it off). I realize that it will be doggy, but it won't
>burn the coverter up totally.  I can't see doing a $700 rebuild on a torqure
>converter in a 140K car! 
>
I have a '68 Toro parts car with a rebuilt Trans. in it. The '68's weren't suppose to have a switch pitch converter in them. CALL I'll let you have it cheap. The whole tranny. $150.00
Jim Chermack  Virginia Beach, VA. (804)474-0869


John T. Blair  WA4OHZ          email:  jblair@nhr.com
Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (804) 495-8229

48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget  65 Morgan 4/4 Series V
     75 Bricklin SV1   77 Spitfire

------------------------------

From: jblair@nhr.com (John T. Blair)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 18:22:55 -0300
Subject: Re: 1970 W32 

>In a message dated 96-04-13 11:12:36 EDT, you write:
>
>>>My '70 service manual lists the engine only for coupes/conv. and it is the
>>same as the base 442 engine.
>
>OK, so what we're getting to here is that the W32 motor, that as an option on
>the SX Package, is the 442 motor.  So, if you ordered an SX Package, it came
>with the 98 motor as standard, but you could order the optional 442 motor in
>it's place.
>
>If the '70 service manual lists the W32 for SX coupes and convertibles and
>says that it's the same as the 442 motor, then it (W32) must have been
>available way before the memo date of 2-24-70 -- service manuals are printed
>too far in advance to reflect such a late change in engine availability like
>this.  Does the service manual say anything about the availability of the L33
>455 2bbl motor?
>
>Yes. The factory service manual lists the 455 2bbl engine again as the L-33.
The thing is that OLDS may have dicontinued that engine. How would you, other than the transmission code of OG for the W-32, or the other code OD identify which 4 bbl engine it came with? Thats how the service manual has the two separated.

Jim Chermack
  C/O 

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ          email:  jblair@nhr.com
Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (804) 495-8229

48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget  65 Morgan 4/4 Series V
     75 Bricklin SV1   77 Spitfire

------------------------------

From: jblair@nhr.com (John T. Blair)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 18:23:10 -0300
Subject: Re: 1970 W32 

>In a message dated 96-04-13 11:08:16 EDT, you write:
>
>>I have a '70 W-32 car. The only way I know how to document it as such is the
>>OG code TH400 transmission and the carb, dist. numbers. This car was built
>on
>>the 9th of October 1969.
>
>But is your car a 2bbl or a 4bbl?  And what is the significance of the OG
>Code for the tranny (I'm dumb when it comes to these codes)?
>
>The OG code transmission was the same TH400 in the base 442.

Jim Chermack
  C/O

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ          email:  jblair@nhr.com
Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (804) 495-8229

48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget  65 Morgan 4/4 Series V
     75 Bricklin SV1   77 Spitfire

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 10:07:11 -0300
Subject: Re: SB head swap 

     This chart is great, I think it's just what a lot of us need.  But I'm 
     a bit confused on heads with the 350 engine.  Now, I know the 350's 
     all have the same bore and stroke, but do they all use the same 
     pistons?  Not using the same pistons would be the only explanation for 
     a 350 engine having the same 8.0 compression ratio with 57cc #10 heads 
     and 75cc #3A heads.  I suppose rod length or deck height could do it 
     too, but I don't think that differs either.
     
     If this is true, then I think we also need to identify what type of 
     piston is used with each engine listed in the first column, or at bare 
     minimum, what year of engine that those heads originally came on so 
     that we can find pistons to match.
     
     Tom L.

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: SB head swap
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    4/16/96 11:37 AM

     
     
Eng Head Head Stock *CVolume*   >>New CRatio, w/ head of chamber size: [cc]<< 
CID ID   cc    CR   ci     cc     57    60    64    67    75    79    83
350  5   64   9.0   5.47  89.6   9.68  9.37  9.00  8.74  8.13  7.85  7.60 
350  6   64   9.0   5.47  89.6   9.68  9.37  9.00  8.74  8.13  7.85  7.60 
350  7   64   8.2   6.08  99.6   8.74  8.50  8.20  7.99  7.48  7.26  7.05 
350  7A  64   8.2   6.08  99.6   8.74  8.50  8.20  7.99  7.48  7.26  7.05 
350  8   79   8.0   6.25  102.4  9.91  9.59  9.20  8.93  8.28  8.00  7.74 
350  10  57   8.0   6.25  102.4  8.00  7.80  7.55  7.38  6.95  6.76  6.58 
350  3A  75   8.0   6.25  102.4  9.49  9.20  8.84  8.59  8.00  7.74  7.49 
403  4A  83   8.2   7.00  114.7  10.3  10.0  9.63  9.37  8.74  8.46  8.20 
307  5A  67   8.2   5.33  87.3   9.13  8.83  8.46  8.20  7.60  7.33  7.09 
307  7A  64   8.2   5.33  87.3   8.83  8.55  8.20  7.96  7.39  7.14  6.91
                       Head ID:   10    3-4   4-7   5A    3A    8     4A

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 18:47:46 -0300
Subject: 455 Valve Job 

It's time for a valve job on the 455 in my 68 Toro! (at least I think so)

Questions posed to the great engine gurus here:

Who are the best people to have do this?

Anything particularly special I should know or tell who does it?

Do I really have to do both heads (only have one bad valve in one cylinder)

PS...its possible its just a weak valve spring (can I just replace the one
(two actually as they are double sprung) affected valve?

Thanks,

Greg Kalkhoff    Toronado66@aol.com

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 18:43:01 -0300
Subject: ZA-12 Heat Riser Filling

Mondello sells a product called ZA-12 for filling heat risers in heads.  
Has anyone used this product, and if so 1) how much do you need and 2) 
what is the procedure?  Also, anyone got a G body clutch pedal setup?

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
 revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
 information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
 Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
 been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

From: "Dal Allan" <dal_allan@mcimail.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:04:42 -0300
Subject: re:Who_is_interested 

I sympathize with scanning stuff which is of little or no interest but I 
believe the proposed cure is worse than the disease. 

Thereore, on splitting the list, add my name to the queue of those lining up 
on the negative side of this issue. That's a No and a Hell No. 

My work involves me with several reflectors, and splitting lists borders on 
a disaster when the subject matter is not clearly and obviously divided. In 
most all cases where there was a good and sound reason for special interest 
groups the theory broke down fast. Subjects cross boundaries and have to go 
to two places. Gee, now a subscriber to both lists get two copies. 

After the first split, where do we stop? 

 - Do we set up Toros list because 'those guys are different'? 
 - Do we set up a pre-1960 list because 'those guys are different'? 
 - Do we set up a ............. because 'those guys are different'? 

The question to ask is 'what's normal'?

There is a very close line between performance and restoration. If you limit 
discussion to motors, then maybe a restoration guy is not interested in the 
combustion chamber volume of a 5a (or is it 5A) head. Heck, a lot of us may 
not care but we know who it is that cares. If a motor rebuild ever turns up 
in my future (touch wood by raising palm to temple), I at least know who to 
contact to get useful and valuable input on the subject. 

Real example: the suggested split was performance and restoration so let's 
just take a question on upgrading the suspension: 

 - If answers on rubber bushings fall under restoration....
 - If answers on polyurethane bushings fall under performance....
 - then it looks like the question has to go to both reflectors, doesn't it?


Administration is tough in the first place, and a split makes it harder so 
who is going to be the arbiter of restoration vs performance? Is Greg 
Beaulieu (or facsimile) going to police the traffic on both and re-direct 
traffic to the 'correct' reflector? 

How about a couple of guidelines?

 - Until the traffic volume on 'oldsmobile' reaches more than XX megabyte 
   per day, stay on one list. 
 - When the traffic volume tops the threshold on 2 days out of 5, then we
   hold a debate over the reflector on which classification(s) to break the
   list into.

As administrator, Greg is the best judge of where the list starts to become 
unmanageable and he can pick the number. I'd guess a half-megabyte/day would 
be the kind of volume which might justify looking at split lists. 

Dal

------------------------------

From: "Dal Allan" <dal_allan@mcimail.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:04:33 -0300
Subject: re:1961-63_Olds_215 

Good background on the 215 Joe, to which I can add little, but here goes. 

>        Apparently Olds designed a unique, Olds-only set of heads 
>        while using the common short block.

The Cutlass came with 10.25:1 compression on a manual and 10.75:1 on the 
Hydramatic and I believe the same was true for the Special. To get the 
ratios up there, Buick did it with pistons and Oldsmobile did it with heads. 

As a car being driven lots of miles would need hardened seats and a lower 
compression ratio to handle unleaded, the Olds looks to be a more appealing 
choice mechanically because the work needed does not involve the bottom end. 

There was an article somewhere recently about a Lotus 7 look-alike being 
built by a guy in Oregon which comes with a 4-banger or a 215. Don't 
understand quite how he gets around the rules and regulations but he drops 
in 1961-63 motors and does not have to comply with 199x smog controls etc. 

Some quick numbers to show why Olds switched to the 330cid when the larger 
bodied Cutlasses came out in 1964: 

           cid      lo/hi      bhp     torque
      1963 215   8.75/10.75  155/195  210/235
      1965 330   9.00/10.25  250/315  335/360      

Horsepower went up about 25% but torque rose over 50%. The overall weight of 
the car went up from sub-3000 to mid-3000 so the penalty of <20% in weight 
was more than offset by torque. 

Dal

------------------------------

From: Rod Rickenbach <rod@hopi.dtcc.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:04:04 -0300
Subject: Re: ZA-12 Heat Riser Filling

On Tue, 16 Apr 1996, Paul R. K. Kuromoto wrote:

> Mondello sells a product called ZA-12 for filling heat risers in heads.  
> Has anyone used this product, and if so 1) how much do you need and 2) 
> what is the procedure?  Also, anyone got a G body clutch pedal setup?

Sounds like JB Weld to me. :)

I've never used it, but from what I hear it will do what you want it to do...

- -Rod
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Rod Rickenbach                                       Delaware Tech
     rod@dtcc.edu                                 Computer Services Department
http://www.dtcc.edu/~rod                            Stanton/Wilmington Campus

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:50:24 -0300
Subject: Rusted Screws

Trick I saw on one of those motorhead shows on TV:  Wack the screw around 
the edges (perpendicular to the screw shaft) with a flat bladed screw 
driver and hammer.  EASY HERE, don't beat the h*ll out of it.  This 
brakes the rust "bond" and the screw will usually come out.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 11:07:33 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: misc. '80s car stuff 

     I always just assumed it was due to the really low first gear in the 
     200-4R tranny, and figured it was just a gear in there spinning really 
     fast.  Trannies are still a bit like "black magic" to me. . .

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: misc. '80s car stuff
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    4/16/96 12:07 PM
     
>My '84 H/O makes a slight whining from the tranny when in first gear, 
>very slight in second, other than that there's nothing.
> 
>      Tom L.
     
My '86 Salon (th200-4r) does the same.  Haven't decided if it is 
actually a tight alternator belt or the torque converter.  My hood 
insulation pad is gone/missing so I get extra noise. 
     

------------------------------

From: Tony <3CQ9DELBALSO@vms.csd.mu.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 21:09:16 -0300
Subject: Tighten Balancer?

Hello,

Anyone have any tips on how to tighten the harmonic balancer?  The spec says
210 to 300 ft-lbs.  Mondello says 160 minimum with Locktite.  But how do I keep
the engine from turning over?  I tried to wedge a block of wood between the
ground and one of the screws which hold the pulley on, but the car just rises
up and spins the balancer over the wood!  Even with my full weight on the
fender.  So if anyone knows of a better way, please let me know!!!  

Thanks a lot,
Tony

------------------------------

From: Tony <3CQ9DELBALSO@vms.csd.mu.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 21:11:31 -0300
Subject: 76 commercial

I haven't been keeping up with the postings, too little time.  So if this has
been discussed, sorry.  

Anyone seen the new 76 gasoline comeercial with the Aurora "nocking"!  I
couldn't believe it!  Here is oldsmobiles supposed flagship new car, and 76
uses it in their commercials showing the car parked, and a guy gets out, but
the car keeps on knocking.  They seem to think their gas would solve the
problem.  

Any thoughts?

Tony

------------------------------

From: Dana and Mary Taylor <dmtaylor@top.monad.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:14:19 -0300
Subject: Re: Group split

Pat Clark 952-3776 wrote:
> 
> I personaly would hate to see the group split.  I agree!! I don't contribute much but I do learn alot and I enjoy the 
diversification. (wow there is a $2.00 word) Please keep it togeather.

------------------------------

From: urbanch@magi.com (Chris Urban)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:40:59 -0300
Subject: Re: ZA-12 Heat Riser Filling 

Yes I've used it and its crap. The hucks of SOLID metal he sends you as good
as any you'd pick right off the ground. It would take about 1 inch of
grinding all around to get them even close. Then you should get them secured
somehow (welding is good but not everyone can get access to a good cast iron
welder -- and if you do have him weld the entire whole up and forget about
mondello) otherwise they will tick like crazy in your engine from the vibration.


>Mondello sells a product called ZA-12 for filling heat risers in heads.  
>Has anyone used this product, and if so 1) how much do you need and 2) 
>what is the procedure?  Also, anyone got a G body clutch pedal setup?
>
>%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
> revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
> information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
> Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
> been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
>%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 22:55:09 -0300
Subject: Splitting Up? (long)

Time for me to weigh in with a few thoughts about the burning question of
the day about a split list. I guess the fact that some folks think there
may be a need for a separate list means they are not fully satisfied with
what they're getting here, and so that gives me cause to stop and think.
If they're not happy, I need to ask myself why. 

The history of this list perhaps may shed some light on the question. I
apologize if this is old news but for some it may be helpful. Over a year
ago, I wondered why there was no resource on the net devoted to
Oldsmobiles. My concept of Oldsmobiles was originally limited to vintage
models, but really it was more an image of some electronic variation of
JWO-type info, with more or less a wide-open scope. But in all honesty,
there was no master design at work here other than that I was hoping to
find some info to help me with my Cutlass. 

My request to CCN for an Olds list somehow got processed. CCN is a
community net (a.k.a. a "freenet") run out of Dalhousie University here in
Halifax. I suppose because of the academic nature of the place, they grant
us rights to run a mailing list out of here as long as we don't ask too
much from them in the way of support, because they can't provide much of
that. I still consider it somewhat of a minor miracle that we have both
the list and the digest working because this really isn't a community sort
of activity (certainly not for the Halifax community; of course, the Olds
community would vote otherwise but they're not what CCN is here to serve!)
and I am still amazed that no one at CCN has questioned whether we should
even be here. But we are, and I think we have had a remarkable first year.
Realistically, though, there is little chance of running another Olds list
from here. 

I won't repeat the sage advice of Mr. Green, Mr. Allan, and the others who
have made good points already. However, I would like to take the time to
thank them, and others, for the time and thought they have put into their
comments on this matter, and I agree with them wholeheartedly. Aside from
the obvious fact that to split the list someone would have to find another
site to house it - since I have no intention of managing TWO lists, one is
quite enough, thank you - I do question the need for such a move anyway.
Yes, we have all had instances where we wish we could retract a
less-than-brilliant posting. Certainly I'm as guilty of this as anyone.
But I really do think that all of our needs can be accommodated if we
follow the advice that others have suggested. 

Certainly the issue of unnecessary quoting is something I would hope
everyone here would pay serious attention to. If you think it's bad having
to wade thru 30 or 40 messages a day that have 90% quotes in them, try
getting multiple bounces of them back from today's non-functioning
accounts the way I do. The same for the occasional outbreak of silly
season that crops up here, and I am a prime suspect in that as well. But I
hesitate to discourage that as strongly, because I certainly don't want to
be put in the position of a moderator for this thing. We have done very
well for the most part and I really don't want to have to enforce a bunch
of arbitrary rules if it means people will feel inhibited from enjoying
their Olds hobby in this medium. And I have my hands full aleady just
handling the subscribes and unsubscribes that have to get processed here
to keep this thing afloat. 

I think it's useful to point out that lots of the stuff I see here - even
if it isn't remotely related to my specific needs - is interesting to me
nevertheless. I mean, I doubt if I'll ever own a Toro, but I still find
some of their unique history and problem areas interesting to read about.
The same with all of Chris Witt's engine info. If you asked me a year ago
what cc volume a particular Olds head featured, I wouldn't know and
couldn't have cared less. But I've come to enjoy learning about all of
that technical stuff even though I know I'll probably never put it to use
myself. It's all good stuff to me, and I always look forward now to seeing
one of Chris' consolidated posts. The same with the wonderful stories
posted by Bob Barry, for example, and others, about either the cars they
currently have, or have had, or hope to have. I mean, some of these things
deserve to be published in JWO or somewhere (IMHO), because they're really
good. I love to see those kinds of postings here. 

I certainly take no credit for any of this, any more than I accept any
blame for any of the problems that may crop up occasionally (except for
the ones I cause!). It's all the work of all of you, and you should all be
very proud of having played a part in what I really think is a tremendous
accomplishment. I don't know about the rest of you, but I really look
forward to this every day. Seeing people getting help solving their
problems, finding parts, or just having some fun... that's really what is
rewarding to see. We've helped contribute to the development of a web
page, and soon will have a FAQ that (if people use and read it) will
eliminate a lot of the less-useful traffic that's here at times. Thanks to
Bryceman and David Brown, from the bottom of my heart, for all of their
incredible effort in making both those things a reality. Not to make this
seem more than what it is, because we still have an awful lot of holes in
our user base - the 50's and earlier are not very widely represented here -
but the 150 or so of us here probably have access to more Olds related
info than 99% of the OCA membership. 

So the bottom line is this: if someone else wants to find a site and run a
performance Olds list, they are certainly more than welcome to do so. And
we'd all still be friends regardless. As it is, I think we'd all welcome
their continued participation in this list, and ask only that everyone
follow the common courtesy and etiquette of keeping posts on-topic (i.e.
Olds-related somehow), keeping them non-commercial within reason, avoiding
personal comment, keeping quotes to a minimum, and using the FAQ and web
pages where possible before asking questions to the collective membership.
Basically, just a matter of thinking, "Do I want everyone on the list to
see this?" before hitting that "Send" command. No, it won't be perfect,
but it'll still be damn good, and that's all we can ask. 

Comments, questions, flames, etc., welcomed, as always. Thanks! 


Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
(in the not-so-great white north and wishing he was in Carlisle this weekend)

------------------------------

From: Rocket Boy <clint@darklair.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 06:13:39 -0300
Subject: Re: misc. '80s car stuff

> >      My 84' H/O has rot on the bottom of the doors(The Original owner 
>        never garaged it!) Other than that it is clean... This reminded
>        me.. Does anyone know of any 81'--88' rust/dent free doors for my
>        car? Preferably ones without the bottom chrome moldings..

UNfortunately the doors I have that are rust free are on my car.  

Seriously though... I am amazed.  After removing 90% of teh chrome trim 
from my car this evening, the only rust I found on the car was some 
surface rust on the hood and the only *real* rust was on that little 
panel between the deck lid and the rear window.   I need to get that 
chrome strip that goes around the back window.  A local boneyard says 
that I can have it for $15.  Is that fair?  Any idea how much NOS will cost?

The screws all came out with almost no trouble.  A few were in danger of 
being stripped, but I got 'em all out except for one.  I got that one out 
by bending teh chrome strip to and fro until it loosened.  8^)

I got a little over zealous and got rid of the half vinyl top as well.  
First setp is to remove the perimeter trim.  Mine was purple for some 
godaful reason which I'll never understand.  YUCK!   The next step is to 
grab a section bordering the rear window and pull good and hard, but 
being careful make sure the window stays put.  It's okay if you break the 
molding inside the vinyl because it's pretty much unsalvagable.   I just 
pulled and pulled until the whole top came off.  I just ripped it where 
the side windows are and trimmed off the excess with a razor blade 
later.  You'll notice there was adhesive soaked padidng underneath.  This 
jsut rolls off with fingertips.   

A few interesting observations:

The side of the car right neer the roof behind the doors is unfinished.  
I can only guess its to give grip for that hard to stick to area.  Also, 
there are numerous little pins sticking out of the perimeter of where the 
vinyl top used to be.  This was so that they coudl attach clips to hold 
the trim on with.

Anyway, I'm glad I did it.  It looks much better now (I also removed the 
dinky pinstripes).   Next up is to remove the bumperette teeth on the 
front and back and remove that damn chrome strip on teh hood and smooth 
over the resulting crevice.  8^)

Clint

                          _________
Rocket Boy!             _|_ _\\____|_     '81 Cutlass Supreme
clint@darklair.com       |___//____|            by Oldsmobile

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:17:48 -0300
Subject: Re: Who is interested

I would be interested in trying Mr Urban's suggestion out to see how it 
works.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
 revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
 information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
 Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
 been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:25:56 -0300
Subject: Re: Rocket Launch and stuff.

There is a NASCAR-style "Rocket" block that is not the same as the DRCE.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
 revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
 information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
 Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
 been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:44:56 -0300
Subject: Re: 76 commercial 

In a message dated 96-04-16 20:32:39 EDT, you write:

>Anyone seen the new 76 gasoline comeercial with the Aurora "nocking"!  I
>couldn't believe it!  Here is oldsmobiles supposed flagship new car, and 76
>uses it in their commercials showing the car parked, and a guy gets out, but
>the car keeps on knocking.

Wonder if this is the Aurora that I saw at the Sheetz station on Saturday
with the Power Antenna gone sour already??

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:44:52 -0300
Subject: Re: misc. '80s car stuff 

In a message dated 96-04-16 13:06:50 EDT, you write:

>My '84 Gutlass is a "Special Edition."  has most options avail, except it
>has the V6, special badges on the landau top and inside, I just found out
>that the cloth on the bench seats was avail. only for this package and was
>normally found in 98s and so forth.  My car was grey (is black now).  Does
>anybody know anything else about these "Special Edition" packages?  What
>years, what colors, how many made?  Thanks.
>
>

It's the book guy here, again.  I was wondering when someone was going to ask
about one these.  Here we go...   Option code WJ3 -- Cutlass Supreme Special
Edition was available for 1984 only, introduced in Dec. '83.  Special Edition
features included "Firemist" paint in #74 Autumn Red or #87 Med Sand Gray and
Regency "Winslow" velour trim in Dark Maple or Sand Gray.  Other feature
were: specific dual accent stripes in Gold (for the Red) or Light Gray (for
the Gray) on bodysides, hood, rear deck and over wheel openings, choice of
wire wheel discs or color coordinated chrome Super Stock wheels, Special
Edition emblems, color coordinated sport mirrors and bodyside molding.  MSRP
was $355.00 with wire wheel covers.  Landau vinyl top was an additional
option.  No info on production figures, but I think I've only seen one
locally, and I can't decided if it really was one or not..  If you would like
a copy of the dealer letter, Email me.

Paul

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:52:04 -0300
Subject: Re: GM Page 

In a message dated 96-04-16 05:19:02 EDT, you write:

>What is their URL? Are their available from the level of Internet?
>
>thanks
>
>Piotr

I sent Email straight to Oldsmobile about this.  They say there is no way
other than AOL to access Oldsmobile Online.  They did say they should have a
Web site up and running later this summer.  Sorry!

Paul

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 00:21:31 -0300
Subject: Re: 76 commercial 

At 23.44 04,16,96 -0300, you wrote:
>In a message dated 96-04-16 20:32:39 EDT, you write:
>
>>Anyone seen the new 76 gasoline comeercial with the Aurora "nocking"!  I
>>couldn't believe it!  Here is oldsmobiles supposed flagship new car, and 76
>>uses it in their commercials showing the car parked, and a guy gets out, but
>>the car keeps on knocking.
>
>Wonder if this is the Aurora that I saw at the Sheetz station on Saturday
>with the Power Antenna gone sour already??
>

was it getting scheetz gasoline?...that always made my 502 knock
               zack
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\ "That which does not kill us makes us stronger"
 *************

------------------------------

From: Scott R Clark <mickeyd@selway.umt.edu>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 01:33:19 -0300
Subject: Re: Tighten Balancer?

> Anyone have any tips on how to tighten the harmonic balancer?  The spec says
> 210 to 300 ft-lbs.  Mondello says 160 minimum with Locktite.  But how do I keep
> the engine from turning over?  I tried to wedge a block of wood between the
> ground and one of the screws which hold the pulley on, but the car just rises
> up and spins the balancer over the wood!  Even with my full weight on the
> fender.  So if anyone knows of a better way, please let me know!!!  


	I've used a "flywheel lock" on 4 bangers before, but I don't know if 
such a thing exsists for bigger engines.  The way it works is it bolts to 
the bell housing, and has 2 big "teeth" that fit into the flywheel and 
keep it from moving (and thus the engine).  If you get really 
ambitious, you might be able to rig something similar for the flexplate on an 
automatic.  And then of course, you could always just get out the 'ol 
impact wrench and let it fly.  Short bursts should keep the engine from 
spinning, but then you still have no idea what your torque is.  Might 
just be too tight.  Any other ideas?

			Scott
		1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 01:45:11 -0300
Subject: Re: misc. '80s car stuff (vinyl roof removal) 

In a message dated 96-04-16 22:42:12 EDT, you write:

>The screws all came out with almost no trouble.  A few were in danger of 
>being stripped, but I got 'em all out except for one.  I got that one out 
>by bending teh chrome strip to and fro until it loosened.  8^)

Aaahhh, some restorer 25 years from now will be cursing you for ruining that
next-to-impossible to replace trim item... ;)

>The side of the car right neer the roof behind the doors is unfinished.  
>I can only guess its to give grip for that hard to stick to area.  Also, 

No, the main reason is that it is cheaper to slap some vinyl on (and charge
for it as an extra-cost option) than to do the final bodywork required by the
seam there. Same is true of my '70 Cutlass Supreme, which I attempted to do
the same thing on as you are doing to yours.

>there are numerous little pins sticking out of the perimeter of where the 
>vinyl top used to be.  This was so that they coudl attach clips to hold 
>the trim on with.

Yeah, I used up I don't know *how* many grinding discs getting those things
flush around the perimiter of the roof ('70 and '71 vinyl tops didn't go all
the way to the windows, but rather were encompassed by some chrome trim; more
work, extra fun!).

If I were to to it all over again, I would do what I saw on another car. They
stripped the roof, but left the trim and painted the former vinyl-top area a
contrasting color. That would save a *lot* of labor, and allow you to
reinstall a vinyl top if you ever should desire again (for nostalgia's sake,
perhaps? Not now, but who knows what retro fads will be around in ten
years...). Plus, it wouldn't look half bad.

If you are going to grind down those little nubs/pins, stock up on *lots* of
grinding discs/wheels. I suppose a cutoff wheel in a die grinder would be
perfect; I used a hacksaw and a drill. Ahh, to be young and stupid again...
(instead of just old and stupid..)

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 01:59:47 -0300
Subject: [none]

 96-04-16 20:33:07 EDT, you write:

>Hello,
>
>Anyone have any tips on how to tighten the harmonic balancer?  The spec says
>210 to 300 ft-lbs.  Mondello says 160 minimum with Locktite.  But how do I
>keep
>the engine from turning over?  I tried to wedge a block of wood between the
>ground and one of the screws which hold the pulley on, but the car just
rises
>up and spins the balancer over the wood!  Even with my full weight on the
>fender.  So if anyone knows of a better way, please let me know!!! 

I just dealt with this question myself, but in reverse: I wanted to *loosen*
the balancer bolt on the 350 shortblock from my Vista Cruiser (the last part
to part out; anyone need one of these in the northeast? $50 w/o flywheel).

I had removed the starter already, and was removing the flexplate bolts, when
it occurred to me that now would be a perfect time to try that balancer bolt.
I put a 9/16"(?) socket  with a short extension on the flywheel bolt, turned
the balancer bolt gently until the socket contacted the rear of the block,
and then wailed on it with a *long* 1/2" drive socket wrench. The bolt broke
free without too many pulled muscles on my part.

For you, you'll want to remove the flexplate cover on the tranny, and put a
socket on the flexplate bolt on the other side of the engine to tighten the
crank bolt. You may have to remove the oil filter and/or mount to do this.
Then just tighten the bolt as much as humanly possible (you only have to
worry about exceeding that torque figure if you're using an air gun). Also,
try at least an 18" long socket wrench/breaker bar to get more leverage.

Good luck, and let us know how it turns out!

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 02:05:39 -0300
Subject: Re: GM Page 

In a message dated 96-04-16 23:34:30 EDT, you write:

>>What is their URL? Are their available from the level of Internet?
>>
>>thanks
>>
>>Piotr
>
>I sent Email straight to Oldsmobile about this.  They say there is no way
>other than AOL to access Oldsmobile Online.  They did say they should have a
>Web site up and running later this summer.  Sorry!

I visited that site earlier today; lots of new car info, but not much on
classic Olds', though they do have a message board section. Mainly short
posts, not very deep (not as good as this list, though oddly there is no
mention of this list or the web site there, though they have a link to
Popular Photography (go figger..).

Not one mention of a Toronado, so I'm never going back... ;)

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 02:06:02 -0300
Subject: Misc. Olds design questions/comments 

Does the rear of the new Aurora remind anyone else of a '66 Toro's
taillights? (that was my first thought)

Did early-80's diesel Cutlasses have diesel-specific taillights? (I thought I
saw 3 vertical bars on each side on the diesel models)

With all the FWD cars out on the market these days, are there any aluminum
wheels that have the proper offset to fit an early Toro? What is the bolt
pattern? I think one would look cool with a set of those way-offset 5-spoke
wheels from a Turbo Porsche (though the Toro's weight would probably snap
those spokes like so many dried twigs). There was a Chevelle in a PHR a
couple years ago that had a Toro drivetrain, and it used the wheels from a
Z71-equipped S-10 pickup. Any 15" or even 16" rims on production cars that
would work?

On the '76-'77 Cutlasses, what determined whether the car had the
squared-front grill or the sloped grill? Mom's Vista Cruiser had the squared
grill, but a friend's had the grill that slanted back.

Man it's late and I"m tired...

------------------------------

From: jrjet@whidbey.net (Dot & Tim McChesney)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 02:29:30 -0300
Subject: Re: Charging paint? 

>At 07:29 PM 4/15/96 -0300, you wrote:
>>Hi!
>>
>>I once heard that some body shops charge paint and body panels, + -, or - +.
>>Is this true, and how do you do it?
>>
>>>the paint is charged positive and the frame is grounded. the purpose is
>>>to reduce over spray/mist to nearly nothing. This is done in aviation
>>>painting and other industrial paint set ups. Saves big bucks on paint
>>>costs.

tim mcchesney 71 convertable cutlass

------------------------------

From: William Walden <wwalden@bdm.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 09:40:27 -0300
Subject: re:Who_is_interested -Reply 

Dal stated:

>>> Dal Allan <dal_allan@mcimail.com> 04/16/96 05:04pm >>>
I sympathize with scanning stuff which is of little or no interest but I 
believe the proposed cure is worse than the disease. 

I have read the responses over the past week and I have changed my
mind about the split of the group.  The volume of traffic is large, but
splitting the group probably would not be worth the effort.

I have not contributed much to this group yet, since I am very new to
restoring an older car, but I have gotten a lot of good information from the
brisk and friendly conversations carried on by the subscribers.

Change my vote to keeping the group as is.

Bill Walden
66 F-85 hardtop
86 Ciera ES

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 00:25:15 -0300
Subject: Re: GBs Splitting Up

Greg:
	
Thanks for the posting.  Couldn't agree with you more.  And I'll admit 
I'm as guilty as anyone for "less-than-brilliant postings" but, on the 
other hand, I can't remember ever getting my knickers in a twist over 
anyone else's LTBP.  (Well, maybe once.)  Or the outbreaks of silly 
seasons.  This should be a LITTLE fun, shouldn't it?  All work and no 
play...

I've read all the comments and though about it carefully and again must 
agree with you (and others) on the unnecessary quoting.  It is a bit 
tedious to rummage through a 1.2GB quote to find a "Yup!" at the end.  
Don't most of these email packages have a Cut function?  Use 'em, guys!

I suspect when the FAQ is up and running, it well help the S/N ratio.  
Then when there is a LTBQ (less than brilliant question), we can FAQ 'em 
instead of flaming them.       ;)

BTW: RE: Toro's unique history and problems: I appriciate that.

I can't end without a word about Chris (the) Witt's info.  Even though I 
haven't the foggest notion of what in the h*ll he's talking about 
sometimes, it's still interesting reading and I appreciate that he takes 
the time and makes the effort to help us all out.  Thanks Chris.

Comment, question, and flame modes on

With much thanks to Greg Beaulieu and CCN.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 00:26:51 -0300
Subject: Re: GM Page

Bob0Barry@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Not one mention of a Toronado, so I'm never going back... ;)

Grrrrr....

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:18:56 -0300
Subject: Re: 76 commercial 

>Anyone seen the new 76 gasoline commercial with the Aurora "knocking"!  I
>couldn't believe it!  Here is oldsmobiles supposed flagship new car, and 76
>uses it in their commercials showing the car parked, and a guy gets out, but
>the car keeps on knocking.  They seem to think their gas would solve the
>problem.  
>
>Any thoughts?

Yeah: I have no idea what 76 was thinking, or more accurately the dimbulb
production company they hired to produce the commercial. After all, you
only see the front end of the car, and most people wouldn't recognize it
as any particular brand, but they would have had to pay extra to rent an
Aurora from somewhere... but then, why bother? (Maybe it belonged to some
muckety-muck at the ad agency.) And for those of us who _do_ recognize it,
well, a car that new is obviously still under warranty and I'd have it back
at the dealer's lot before the commercial was over...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 12:38:29 -0300
Subject: Re:  Harmonic balancer bolt removal/installation 

          I had a similar problem quite a few years ago, trying to 
          replace the timing chain on my 68 442 in the cold outside my 
          dorm back in my college days.  I finally hit on the idea of 
          using a spare crank pulley (usually relatively easy to 
          remove the four bolts) and welding a four foot piece of pipe 
          to the side of it.  By removing the water pump and 
          accessories on the front of the motor (you WERE going to 
          replace the timing chain, weren't you), you can easily bolt 
          this tool in place of the original crank pulley.  
          
          "Borrowing" the metal closet clothes pole from my dorm room 
          (I still have it), I noticed that it fit exactly over the 
          handle of my Craftsman 1/2" drive breaker bar, allowing me 
          sufficient torque to break the bolt free.  Reverse the 
          process to reinstall the bolt.
          
          Most welding shops can weld this tool up for a few bucks.  
          I'd also be happy to go into business selling them if the 
          demand warrants...makes all the 442s a business expense 
          (advertising for the company)....
          
          BTW, I still stand by the Craftsman guarantee.  Used that 
          same clothes pole and breaker bar to attempt to loosen the 
          flywheel bolt on a neighbor's VW engine (250++ ft-lb nominal 
          torque).  He steadied the motor while I (literally) jumped 
          on the end of the pipe...Sear replaced the breaker bar, no 
          questions asked.  The neighbor took the motor to a nearby 
          service station, which used an impact wrench to finally 
          loosen the bolt.
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:36:54 -0300
Subject: Re: Tighten Balancer? 

>I tried to wedge a block of wood between the
>ground and one of the screws which hold the pulley on, but the car just rises
>up and spins the balancer over the wood!  Even with my full weight on the
>fender.  So if anyone knows of a better way, please let me know!!!  

Is there a counterbalancing hole anywhere around the perimeter of the
balancer? I made use of one I found the last time I had to do this: I
dropped a 5/32" socket in the hole clipped to a 1/4" ratchet handle,
then swung the handle around until it butted against the engine block.
To lock the balancer back on again afterwards, I simply turned the
ratchet handle the other way until it locked against the block at
another spot in the opposite direction. It made the job a breeze.

The only snag I ran into was cracking the little socket under the huge
load and weird leverage that the ratchet handle imposed on it while I
was leaning on the balancer bolt with my big torque wrench. (The torque 
required to tighten the balancer was something like 165 ft.-lbs.) But 
that's okay, it was a Craftsman socket: free replacement!

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Scott D Ballentine <sb7k+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 11:54:58 -0300
Subject: Re: Misc. Olds design questions/comments

Excerpts: 17-Apr-96 Misc. Olds design questions.. by Bob0Barry@aol.com 
> Did early-80's diesel Cutlasses have diesel-specific taillights? (I thought
> I saw 3 vertical bars on each side on the diesel models)

4 doors have taillights like that.

    -Scott Ballentine
     sb7k@andrew.cmu.edu
     Carnegie Mellon University
     School of Computer Science

------------------------------

From: urbanch@magi.com (Chris Urban)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 11:58:17 -0300
Subject: Re: Tighten Balancer? 

I made myself an apparatus that is sismilar to a flywheel turning tool in
that it contacts the flywheel to hold it firmly in place. Then you can
torque away. This is usually done while I have the engine sitting on my home
made run in stand, so it may not work for everybody.

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 13:37:04 -0300
Subject: Re: Misc. Olds design questions/comments 

In a message dated 96-04-17 11:18:10 EDT, you write:

>Excerpts: 17-Apr-96 Misc. Olds design questions.. by Bob0Barry@aol.com 
>> Did early-80's diesel Cutlasses have diesel-specific taillights? (I
thought
>> I saw 3 vertical bars on each side on the diesel models)
>
>4 doors have taillights like that.

OK, *that* was where I saw them then.

Another question, then; what years were the "fastback" Cutlasses of that
generation produced? Was there also a notchback produced at the same time? I
remember the show car with the Toro 455 (403) under that back window. Has
that show car been crushed, or is it still around?

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #150
********************************

