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Subject:	oldsmobile-digest V1 #1325


oldsmobile-digest       Tuesday, June 23 1998       Volume 01 : Number 1325



Re: making olds into sportscar vs. buying one
RE: But, officer...
RE: Backfires?
RE: making olds into sportscar vs. buying one
Re: making olds into sportscar vs. buying one
Oldsmobile Parts looking for a home
RE: UNBOUNCE: Air Cleaner Recommendations
Re: making olds into sportscar vs. buying one
RE: Backfires?
RE: But, officer...
Swirl shock rebuild?
RE: UNBOUNCE: Air Cleaner Recommendations
Shelby Olds
Re: Shelby Olds
Shelby olds? gimmie some info!
Need help w/ clearance measurements
RE: Shelby olds? gimmie some info!
Re: making olds into sportscar vs. buying one
Brakes
Re: Shelby olds? gimmie some info!
Re: Need help w/ clearance measurements
Re: Oldsmobile Parts looking for a home
KREEN
Re: Cam Bank Angle Saga. Was Crazy Questions?
RE: KREEN
A/C Compressor
Re: 455 weight
Re: iroc olds / was shelby olds
Re: making olds into sportscar vs. buying one
Re: Additives
Re: Shelby olds? gimmie some info!
IROC Cars
RE: 455 weight
Re: 72 Supreme
Re: Backfires?
Re: making olds into sportscar vs. buying one
Re: Backfires?
RE: KREEN
RE: Additives
RE: making olds into sportscar vs. buying one
RE: 455 weight
85-88 "G" Body Exhaust
RE: 85-88 "G" Body Exhaust
77 question
Re: 85-88 "G" Body Exhaust
engine weights
Tic-Toc_Tach
Re: Disks in rear VS. Drum
Red Line WaterWetter - Technical Information

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:10:32 -0400
From: Padavano.Joe@Orbital.COM
Subject: Re: making olds into sportscar vs. buying one

Greg,

The reality is that buying another car will likely be cheaper in the long
run.  The problem with doing that is that you will have a car which is
significantly more common, though likely also fun to drive.  If having the
car today is a priority, and seeing yourself coming and going does not
bother you, I suspect you'll be happier with another car.

Having said that, note that I am currently doing they type of mods you are
contemplating to my 66 442 convert.  I specifically _don't _ want a car
everyone else has.  In addition, I just can't get into the thought of
buying such a car off the rack.  The one I build will be uniquely mine, and
that means a lot to me.  We recently got a 94 300ZX convertible for my
wife.  It's a nice car, handles well, and is very comfortable.  It's fun to
drive, but it just isn't me.

I started out with a budget of $12,000 for the 66 project, but the
realities of life indicate that this will likely blast through $15K and end
up closer to $20K by the time I'm done (the leather upholstery will
constitute a big chunk of that).  Looking around at what I can buy for that
kind of money, there isn't much that I'd rather have (in terms of a daily
driver).  We recently test drove a new Trans Am, and while the performance
is there, I physically couldn't fit my 6 ft 2 in height into the car
comfortably.  I have to admit that I'm just addicted to 500+ ft-lbs of
torque from a big block.  The T/A handled nicely, but I'm working on
duplicating that with my 66 (Global West suspension package and Koni shocks
with 17" BFGs).  Will I ever be able to get the money out of it?  Nah.  But
I'm not building it to sell, I'm building it for me.  As for insurance, I
plan on getting a declared-value policy, so at least I'll be covered in
that respect.

Good luck with your decision

Joe Padavano
padavano.joe@orbital.com

66 442
68 W-30
69 H/O
70 W-30

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:14:15 -0500
From: "CD Smalley" <notdadsw41@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: But, officer...

Lisa wrote:

>Just a word of warning, gentlemen. If you're driving
>through PA and you tell the fella in the uniform that
>your speedo read "XX" when his little radar gun said
>you were going "XX++", he will smilingly suggest you
>get it checked as he hands you your contribution to
>PA EMS services.
>
>In the Keystone State, law says you own the car, it's
>your responsibility to be sure the speedometer is
>correct. Just ask my son :-}.
>Lisa

That's not just in PA.  I can tell that this is true I believe everywhere.
As a LEO, I've heard this many times.
I've bought ~some~ stories that people have told me but never this one.

"I just put new tires on.  They must have changed the reading on the
speedometer."  Uhh Huh. Please sign by the X, it's not an admission of guilt
just a promise to appear or take care of the fine. Press hard you're making
three copies.

Cecil Smalley
1991 W41
OCA #29604
http://home.att.net/~notdadsw41/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:24:30 -0500
From: Thomas Martin <Thomas_Martin@css.mot.com>
Subject: RE: Backfires?

And you know that engine probably better than I do!  <g>

Yes, that engine has never liked much EGR, if any.  I have it
disconnected now, and it seems to have better part throttle power, no
pinging yet, but under heavy load as described, it does surge.  Not
backfiring now.  I wonder if the ECM is trying to lean it out for EGR
and 307, and it is too much.  I can trick the O2 sensor and make it
richer, I guess that is something to play with!

Tom

- -----Original Message-----
From: CRuper1@aol.com [mailto:CRuper1@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, June 22, 1998 10:44 PM
To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: Re: Backfires?


When I had that motor in the Cutlass (mine) I had the EGR blocked off
altogether.  seemed to run pretty good like that.  Yes, the EGR makes
the
engine run leaner (reburns some of the exhaust, which means less fresh
air is
getting into the cylinder).



It's possible that is the case.

Chris Ruper

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:34:12 -0500
From: "Smetana, Christopher" <csmetana@dowagro.com>
Subject: RE: making olds into sportscar vs. buying one

Just my opinion, Greg.  But if you want a 'sports' car and if you've got
the money for a vette, get it.

My recommendation would be a Firehawk or Saleen Mustang.  If you want a
little cheaper then try the WS-6 Firebird (if you can find one)  As much
as I like the older vehicles, it doesn't make much sense to me to try
and spent the $15K+ for what you want especially since you would still
have an 'old' vehicle.  Now granted you would have your 6sp and built
455, and assuming 4 wheel discs, not to mention the factor of not losing
your car in the parking lot.  But like you said, you would never get
your money back if something happened to it, not to mention all your
hard work and time you put in to get your Cutlass looking and running
better.
The newer cars already have the 'bugs' worked out so to speak, so you
would be getting a car that would run at least in the 13s off the
showroom floor, has four wheel discs, the overdrive tranny and pulls
down mid 20mpg numbers and possibly most important in todays emissions
age, already meets existing emissions standards.
Kinda funny story, a few months back when I was looking for a new
vehicle, I was checking out a 97 Blazer.  V6, OD, 4WD, blah,blah...it
got approx 21 mpg highway.  Sitting right next to it was a 96 WS-6
Firebird, it got approx 26mpg highway.  Go figure, that monster v8
sipping fuel more efficently than the v6 in the Blazer....but of course
the Blazer will hold a little bit more, not to mention stay on the road
in the winter.

Oh, and if you really want a 'supercar' then get a Viper.  A bargain
when you consider it's competition: Porsche, Ferrari,
Lamborghini...which are all well into 6 figures and the Viper is
what..$70K...and can run ~easily~ with the imports.

Good luck Greg.

Chris Smetana
Terre Haute, IN
work: csmetana@dowagro.com

1969 W-31
1969 4-4-2 parts car

>
>I've reached that point where I either need to commit major dollars to
>my Cutlass, or sell it right now and get something else.  Let me
>
>It's a '71 cutlass convertible and over the past six years I've spent
>$15,000 on it.  It has 40,000 miles on all mechanicals.  Has a "built"
>
>But I don't want a cruising car, I want a balls-out fast sportscar.  I
>could spend another $15,000+ on my car to do it: 455 with aluminum
>heads, 6-speed overdrive tranny, 17" wheels, new top, new paint and
>sheetmetal (I already have the new doors and quarter panels), better
>bucket seals, rollbar with harnesses,etc.  Or sell it right now for
>$9000 and buy something that already has all the high performance
>stuff, like a Mustang Cobra (with a bolt in supercharger), or a Vette,
>or maybe even a twin turbo Japanese car (300zx, supra, RX-7)
>
>I've been going back and forth over this matter.  It seems the
>sportscar will cost more in the long run (loan interest,etc.), but the
>money spent on the Olds will never be recovered if it gets wrecked or
>I have to sell it.
>
>I would appreciate any advice, ideas, etc.
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:45:40 EDT
From: <W30442CS@aol.com>
Subject: Re: making olds into sportscar vs. buying one

keep the olds as a driver and find a spare body to build as a hell raiser!! ,
say a cutlass-s,  no 442 or w-30, this should be easier to pick up since their
more common.  you can build it to your personel desire and taste.  if you
wreck it you havent lost some thing rare like a hurst olds,   and since it`s
purpose is to go out and race (raise hell!) , and since their`s always someone
looking to do just that, your sure to have a market should you decide to sell
it.  and of course youll still have the conv.for cruiseing,ect.,ect.    just
my thought`s ,    steven, w30442cs@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:51:06 EDT
From: <Saaridon@aol.com>
Subject: Oldsmobile Parts looking for a home

     I have the following parts looking for a home - no reasonable offers
refused - contact direct email at saaridon@aol.com

     l975 Cutlass;  hood, trunk lid, tail lights, grille & headlights,
radiator & A/C
     1979 Olds 98 4 door:  grille, door glass, power window units, front
bumper, radiator & A/C
     l980 Olds 98 4 door:  grille, tail lights, backup light panel, bumpers,
front inner fenders, parking lights, w/s wiper motor, heater, speedometer,
radiator & A/C, bumper energy absorbers
     Also have NOS DELCO energy absorber accumulator pressurized #22009008 and
Four blade fan marked "63-70 ABE Fan Tor" #406016 (and 11064)
     This stuff has got to go!!!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:04:05 -0500
From: Thomas Martin <Thomas_Martin@css.mot.com>
Subject: RE: UNBOUNCE: Air Cleaner Recommendations

Not to be advertising, but I did see an airflow test of an Amsoil air
filter vs a K&N.  The Amsoil had slightly more airflow, and passed no
perceptible dirt, while the K&N passed lots of dirt.  The K&N filter box
says they outflow Amsoil, but they used a large filter for the K&N and a
small one for the Amsoil.  Paper filters flowed about 50% less air then
the Amsoil and K&N.  They did trap dirt well though.

The Amsoil filter is a foam on a metal frame, oil soaked.  The Accel air
filters are similar.

(Amsoil filter is cheaper too!!)

You can check them out for yourselves.

Thomas Martin
85 Cutlass Supreme Rocket 350 CCC
91 Bonneville LE 3800
80 Turbo Trans AM 400 Pontiac


- -----Original Message-----
From: Albert Meyer [mailto:Olds@austintx.net]
Sent: Monday, June 22, 1998 10:37 PM
To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: Re: UNBOUNCE: Air Cleaner Recommendations


When I drag-raced, I cut a hole in my hood and got the biggest tallest
K&N
I could get (more surface area = more air flow). If you're going real
fast
you may have to consider aerodynamics, but if you're running anything
over
10 seconds I wouldn't worry about it. K&N's seem to offer the best
combination of low restriction and durability, but you do have to
remember
to oil it. A K&N without oil will still stop the big chunks, but the
dust
goes right through. It's like putting a few thousand miles on your motor
every time you go down the strip.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 08:03:43 -0700
From: "Chris Sparks (aka Mr. Ada)" <mrada@catalina-inter.net>
Subject: Re: making olds into sportscar vs. buying one

Smetana, Christopher wrote:

> Oh, and if you really want a 'supercar' then get a Viper.  A bargain
> when you consider it's competition: Porsche, Ferrari,
> Lamborghini...which are all well into 6 figures and the Viper is
> what..$70K...and can run ~easily~ with the imports.

The other day I was at my local Olds dealership to test drive the Intrigue
so
that I could get those tickets for the X-Files movie.  I was talking to the
sales
rep and told her that I had a 68 442 and wanted to know if the Intrigue
would
muster up.  Well she told to skip the test drive since they were busy (Yeah
right!)
and she gave me the form to fill out for the tickets.  While I was there
inside
the sales floor (my local Olds dealer does Mitsucrapsi as well) I saw a
knock out
car.  I thought to myself what is that a Mitsu.... so I asked the sales
lady if that
was one.  She said no it wasn't.  It was a Shelby/Olds.   Shazaam!  What a
car.
Sleek, Simple but sporty lines.  Wide enough for my tastes.  Only drawback
was
its sticker price, $100K.  Gulp!  If I had the dough I would certainly love
having
this puppy!

- --
Chris Sparks
68 442 SC - Frosty
68 442 HT - Scarlet
68 442 HT - Saffron
82 DRB    - Dr. "B"
http://www.catalina-inter.net/mrada

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:54:45 -0500
From: Thomas Martin <Thomas_Martin@css.mot.com>
Subject: RE: Backfires?

Now, with a ECM controlled Q-Jet, the ECM will turn on EGR when
required, and then if it does not work, it will maintain 14.7 A/F,
because it is told to do so.  So with a E4MC car, you can disconnect EGR
with not much penalty?  If any?  I know the 85 G-Body 307 powered cars
do not have ESC, has anyone ever messed with adding it?  The pins are
not used on the ECM.  Can I hock the ESC unit from a V6 Cutlass, and
wire it in with the appropriate V8 sensor?    (yes, there are specific
freq ranges for knock sensors.  If anyone needs to know what the
frequencies are, email me and I will post them).  I just don't know if
the ECM will ACCEPT a ESC signal from the controller module.

Is there any programming on the PROM for ESC or is it purely an external
affair like my 80 Turbo Trans AM.  (yes, you CAN adapt a ESC from the
Turbo T/A/Turbo Regal (Carbed version, no ECM) to an Olds, I can post
what is needed if anyone is interested)

The ESC, for those who are not in the Electronic Age, is Electronic
Spark Control.  When detonation/pinging is detected from the knock
sensor, the controller (not COMPUTER!) changes a line on the HEI module
to retard timing.  This can retard as much as 15 degrees timing.  For
those of you with a HEI powered 455 running 10:1 compression, this may
be of some help!!  This timing will be restored when the ping is gone.
A "loud" valvetrain can confuse it, but only if it is on the knocking
frequency.

Thomas Martin
85 Cutlass Supreme Rocket 350 CCC
91 Bonneville LE 3800
80 Turbo Trans AM 400 Pontiac


- -----Original Message-----
From: KarlAune@aol.com [mailto:KarlAune@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, June 22, 1998 11:16 PM
To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: Re: Backfires?


In a message dated 98-06-22 23:46:40 EDT, you write:

<< Maybe it is too obvious, why will it backfire when it is too lean?
>>

It is odd, but the same thing happens in firearms.

Apparently when too little cartridge space is take up by gunpowder, and
too
much by air (always some powder and air) a weapon-destructive detonation
can
take place.

Several priceless rifles have been lost this way.

<<When EGR is operating, that tends to lean it out, right? >>

Wrong!
EGR flows exhaust into the cylinders. Ideally this exhaust is previously
combusted and inert (should not burn)!

In reality the exhaust can be partially unburnt (some gasoline
residuals). But
I will ignore that for this purpose.

When EGR (I hate talking about this!) is functioning, some (what we will
suppose is unburnable) exhaust flows into the cylinders along with the
fuel
and air. The effect of this is to make your 455 (or whatever) act like a
307
(or whatever else). The idea is to allow less fuel/air with hot inert
gas to
make combustion more efficient.

The ratio is not leaner, it just takes up space due to EGR gasses.
Now if you BLOCKED the EGR gasses, that would be a leaner mix because
the carb
wil flow the same amount of gasoline, but the additional vaccuum in the
cylinders caused by lack of EGR gasses (which are blocked off) would
draw more
air in through the carb and THAT would be a leaner condition!

And that is also why you should not run an EGR Q-jet on a non EGR car
without
modifications to the Q-jet!

I hope I did not confuse you...

KA
&SOM


If you need to flow less gasoline, switch to a 2 barrel carburetor.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:12:05 -0500
From: Thomas Martin <Thomas_Martin@css.mot.com>
Subject: RE: But, officer...

Just don't do what a friend of mine did.

The cop pulled him over for doing 31 or so in a 20, and he replied,
"Gee, and I thought I was doing 40".

You can guess what his ticket was written for.......

Be nice, and be honest, just not too honest!!

Thomas Martin
85 Cutlass Supreme Rocket 350 CCC
91 Bonneville LE 3800
80 Turbo Trans AM 400 Pontiac



- -----Original Message-----
From: CD Smalley [mailto:notdadsw41@worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 1998 9:14 AM
To: Oldsmobile List
Subject: RE: But, officer...


Lisa wrote:

>Just a word of warning, gentlemen. If you're driving
>through PA and you tell the fella in the uniform that
>your speedo read "XX" when his little radar gun said
>you were going "XX++", he will smilingly suggest you
>get it checked as he hands you your contribution to
>PA EMS services.
>
>In the Keystone State, law says you own the car, it's
>your responsibility to be sure the speedometer is
>correct. Just ask my son :-}.
>Lisa

That's not just in PA.  I can tell that this is true I believe
everywhere.
As a LEO, I've heard this many times.
I've bought ~some~ stories that people have told me but never this one.

"I just put new tires on.  They must have changed the reading on the
speedometer."  Uhh Huh. Please sign by the X, it's not an admission of
guilt
just a promise to appear or take care of the fine. Press hard you're
making
three copies.

Cecil Smalley
1991 W41
OCA #29604
http://home.att.net/~notdadsw41/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:34:09 -0400
From: "Shokouhi, Mike" <ShokouhM@nasd.com>
Subject: Swirl shock rebuild?

Can the old "Swirl" shocks be rebuilt?  If so, does anyone know of a
firm that can handle this?

Thanks in advance,

Mike Shokouhi

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:41:55 -0500
From: "Johnson, Sam" <SAJOHNSON@usds.com>
Subject: RE: UNBOUNCE: Air Cleaner Recommendations

Where can I check out this Amsoil Air cleaner?

> ----------
> From: 	Thomas Martin[SMTP:Thomas_Martin@css.mot.com]
> Reply To: 	oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
> Sent: 	Tuesday, June 23, 1998 10:04 AM
> To: 	'oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca'
> Subject: 	RE: UNBOUNCE: Air Cleaner Recommendations
>
> Not to be advertising, but I did see an airflow test of an Amsoil air
> filter vs a K&N.  The Amsoil had slightly more airflow, and passed no
> perceptible dirt, while the K&N passed lots of dirt.  The K&N filter box
> says they outflow Amsoil, but they used a large filter for the K&N and a
> small one for the Amsoil.  Paper filters flowed about 50% less air then
> the Amsoil and K&N.  They did trap dirt well though.
>
> The Amsoil filter is a foam on a metal frame, oil soaked.  The Accel air
> filters are similar.
>
> (Amsoil filter is cheaper too!!)
>
> You can check them out for yourselves.
>
> Thomas Martin
> 85 Cutlass Supreme Rocket 350 CCC
> 91 Bonneville LE 3800
> 80 Turbo Trans AM 400 Pontiac
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Albert Meyer [mailto:Olds@austintx.net]
> Sent: Monday, June 22, 1998 10:37 PM
> To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
> Subject: Re: UNBOUNCE: Air Cleaner Recommendations
>
>
> When I drag-raced, I cut a hole in my hood and got the biggest tallest
> K&N
> I could get (more surface area = more air flow). If you're going real
> fast
> you may have to consider aerodynamics, but if you're running anything
> over
> 10 seconds I wouldn't worry about it. K&N's seem to offer the best
> combination of low restriction and durability, but you do have to
> remember
> to oil it. A K&N without oil will still stop the big chunks, but the
> dust
> goes right through. It's like putting a few thousand miles on your motor
> every time you go down the strip.
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:45:02 -0400
From: Padavano.Joe@Orbital.COM
Subject: Shelby Olds

Chris,

You saw a Shelby in the Olds showroom?!  Wow!  I assumed they were sold
before they were built.  Only in SoCal, I guess.  Which dealership was
this?

BTW, the Shelby Olds was apparently the giveaway car for this year's
Playmate of the Year.  (Note that I read that in _Autoweek_, not some other
mag, and I only buy Autoweek for the pictures ;-)

Joe Padavano
padavano.joe@orbital.com

66 442
68 W-30
69 H/O
70 W-30

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 08:55:04 -0700
From: "Chris Sparks (aka Mr. Ada)" <mrada@catalina-inter.net>
Subject: Re: Shelby Olds

Joe,

> You saw a Shelby in the Olds showroom?!  Wow!  I assumed they were sold
> before they were built.  Only in SoCal, I guess.  Which dealership was
> this?

Browning Olds in Cerritos.  Truly was a beauty.  I wish I had brought my
camera.In other pictures I have seen this car looked small.  Not even.  I
would say it is as
wide as my 442.  Maybe not as lengthy since it is a 2-seater.  The one thing
I couldn't
figure out if it had a removable hard-top roof.  I wouldn't think is was
always meant
to be topless!  Doh!

> BTW, the Shelby Olds was apparently the giveaway car for this year's
> Playmate of the Year.  (Note that I read that in _Autoweek_, not some other
> mag, and I only buy Autoweek for the pictures ;-)

Yeah, you like the nice curves......

- --
Chris Sparks
68 442 SC - Frosty
68 442 HT - Scarlet
68 442 HT - Saffron
82 DRB    - Dr. "B"
http://www.catalina-inter.net/mrada

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:23:57 -0400
From: "Gregory Zimmerman" <zimmermangm@email.msn.com>
Subject: Shelby olds? gimmie some info!

Wow, I must have missed something...what's a Shelby/olds?  can someone
give me some info, location on a picture, etc.?

$100000, huh....I'll have to start saving.

- -greg

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:29:04 -0400
From: Jonathan Parke <jonparke@together.net>
Subject: Need help w/ clearance measurements

Does anybody know the measurement from the top (where the carb mounts) of a
stock 4 bbl intake manifold to the hood on a '72 Cutlass for:  a) 350 b)
455 (using non-ram hood)?  I'm in the planning stages of putting together a
455 w/fuel injection using Edelbrock's Torker manifold and their new
aluminum heads.   I was running a 350 but its been out of the car for the
last several years while I've been doing a frame up so I have no real
accurate way of checking.  Thanks!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:23:10 -0500
From: Thomas Martin <Thomas_Martin@css.mot.com>
Subject: RE: Shelby olds? gimmie some info!

When will Olds pick up IROC???

Ch%vy had it, Chrysler trashed it, Pontiac now has it.  Olds turn is
next.....

- -----Original Message-----
From: Gregory Zimmerman [mailto:zimmermangm@email.msn.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 1998 10:24 AM
To: Olds list
Subject: Shelby olds? gimmie some info!


Wow, I must have missed something...what's a Shelby/olds?  can someone
give me some info, location on a picture, etc.?

$100000, huh....I'll have to start saving.

- -greg

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:28:48 -0400
From: Jonathan Parke <jonparke@together.net>
Subject: Re: making olds into sportscar vs. buying one

Greg, I appreciate your dilemma.  Here's my experience.

Ten years a go I bought a '72 Cutlass Supreme Convertible on a whim.  I had
no idea what a muscle car was.  My girlfriend and I wanted to drive across
country.  Well, over the years I've made a lot of changes to the car and
I'm really happy with it.  Here's what and why.

ALREADY DONE:

*TH700-R4 tranny
*3.42:1 10 bolt posi
*1 1/8" sway bar in front
*1" sway bar in rear along with boxed control arms
*Poly bushing all around except for upper A-frames
   (used rubber on the A-frame to keep vibration out of
    steering wheel)
*Bucket seats from an earlier Volvo
    (Better lumbar support and headrest support for whiplash)
*B&M shifter slightly angled to the right to fit natural movement of my arm
*Great sound system

IN PROCESS:

*Frame up restoration
*Blueprinted 455 w/ Fuel injection on Edelbrock Aluminum manifold
    and heads and high compression pistons.
*Close ratio steering box
*Tilt column out of '84 Olds (so that cruise and wiper controls are on the
column and so wiper has delay)
*Custom dash using VDO back-lit gauges
*Complete re-wire of electrics
*3-point seat belts

IN THE FUTURE:

*12 front disk brakes from Master Power in place of the stock front disks.
   (Forget rear disks everybody I've talked to says it's a complete waste
of money
      and that it actually impedes the stopping ability)
*3.73:1 rear gear


This car is a perfect combination for me.  It handles very well (for years
I was reluctant to put a 455 in it, but now with the aluminum heads and
manifold the weight is virtually the same as a 350).  Fully loaded with
gear, tools and a passenger for a long road trip the car will weight in at
about 4100-4300 lbs and the 455 will give it the grunt I want.  I also want
to be able to cruise 'cross country with ease.  The Cutlass is roomy enough
for that.  Yet I can also zip through winding roads.  Anybody can buy a
ready built car, but if you like to tinker and engineer stuff then that's
another story.  Age is a factor too.  I'm 53.  I've raced motorcycles,
abused sports cars and came close to killing myself from time to time.  I
don't get up very fast in the morning anymore and I've noticed that I'm not
as quickly observant to traffic situations as I used to be.  So my Cutlass
is perfect for me.  Plus my girlfriend has two teenagers so I need a
reasonable back seat from time to time.  By the way the Cutlass is my
second car.  My main ride is a short wheel base full size Dodge Van with a
V-6.

In summary, I probably haven't told you anything you haven't thought of
already.  Probably age and interest in customizing/engineering are the
biggest factors to your decision.  If you want more detailed information on
what I've done to my car and why e-mail me @  jonparke@together.net

By the way.  I always liked the look and size of the early 70's Firebirds.
With the right suspension and a gritty 350 I think that would make a really
nice ride.

Good luck




>Warning: long post
>
>I've been loosing sleep over this for days, and it's killing me.
>
>I've reached that point where I either need to commit major dollars to
>my Cutlass, or sell it right now and get something else.  Let me
>explain...
>
>It's a '71 cutlass convertible and over the past six years I've spent
>$15,000 on it.  It has 40,000 miles on all mechanicals.  Has a "built"
>350, TH-350 tranny, new rear posi 3.08 rear.  All new brakes,
>suspension (front/rear swaybars, springs, poly bushings), etc.
>
>It's a great cruising car, and runs mid/high 14 second 1/4 miles
>times.  It's my only car and I drive it every day.
>
>But I don't want a cruising car, I want a balls-out fast sportscar.  I
>could spend another $15,000+ on my car to do it: 455 with aluminum
>heads, 6-speed overdrive tranny, 17" wheels, new top, new paint and
>sheetmetal (I already have the new doors and quarter panels), better
>bucket seals, rollbar with harnesses,etc.  Or sell it right now for
>$9000 and buy something that already has all the high performance
>stuff, like a Mustang Cobra (with a bolt in supercharger), or a Vette,
>or maybe even a twin turbo Japanese car (300zx, supra, RX-7)
>
>I've been going back and forth over this matter.  It seems the
>sportscar will cost more in the long run (loan interest,etc.), but the
>money spent on the Olds will never be recovered if it gets wrecked or
>I have to sell it.
>
>I would appreciate any advice, ideas, etc.
>
>Also, no flames about considering other makes/models of non-olds cars.
>Thank you,
>
>Greg Zimmerman
>zimmermangm@msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:29:44 -0500
From: Thomas Martin <Thomas_Martin@css.mot.com>
Subject: Brakes

I confirmed with local parts store and the 1976 Factory Service Manual.

The Big car wagon has 12 X 2 rear brakes as an option.

11 X 2 are standard.

Local parts store wanted $80+ each.

If you don't want disc, you can go to 12 in rear for about $200.  They
are drilled for 5 X 5 only.

Thomas Martin
85 Cutlass Supreme Rocket 350 CCC
91 Bonneville LE 3800
80 Turbo Trans AM 400 Pontiac

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:32:03 -0700
From: "Chris Sparks (aka Mr. Ada)" <mrada@catalina-inter.net>
Subject: Re: Shelby olds? gimmie some info!

Gregory Zimmerman wrote:

> Wow, I must have missed something...what's a Shelby/olds?  can someone
> give me some info, location on a picture, etc.?

http://www.carrollshelby.com/

> $100000, huh....I'll have to start saving.

You and me both!

- --
Chris Sparks
68 442 SC - Frosty
68 442 HT - Scarlet
68 442 HT - Saffron
82 DRB    - Dr. "B"
http://www.catalina-inter.net/mrada

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:38:01 -0400
From: "Mike Rothe." <hurstolds@xtalwind.net>
Subject: Re: Need help w/ clearance measurements

Put a stick of clay, or some other super mallable substance like that on
top of your air cleaner, then clost the hood.  Open it back up, measure
the clay and add that to the measurement from the intake to top of air
cleaner measurement.  Should get a good idea for clearance...

2 cents
Mike Rothe

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:41:38 -0600
From: Eric <big_olds@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Oldsmobile Parts looking for a home

Where do you live?

Saaridon@aol.com wrote:
>
>      I have the following parts looking for a home - no reasonable offers
> refused - contact direct email at saaridon@aol.com
>
>      l975 Cutlass;  hood, trunk lid, tail lights, grille & headlights,
> radiator & A/C

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:24:06 -0500
From: "Kijowski, Stan" <SKIJOWSKI@midland.com>
Subject: KREEN

someone gave me a flyer on something called KREEN produced by KANO
LABORATORIES. it is some sort of "vunderbar" oil/engine additive. any input
or opinions?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 13:41:10 EDT
From: <KS7RACING@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Cam Bank Angle Saga. Was Crazy Questions?

Karl & Listmembers,

Thought I'd drop a cent or two in here.

1) As for the 371 - to - 394 J2 swap, I don't think so.  Think it has to do
with the deck height changing, much like the 350 - to - 455 changes minus the
enlargement of the crank journals.  I might be full of it on this, but I think
I heard this before.  Could be all those voices in my head after one too many
times around the track with no ear plugs.........

2) I think I have read where some top NASCAR teams work with varying the valve
timing on each individual cylinder to compensate for differences in intake
runner velocities (wow, big words from an ex-jarhead!), since ignition
variances only attainable with computer-controlled setups are a no-no(more
words!).

I think I better go, my brain hurts right now.............

Take Care,
Ken Snyder
Kansas City, Kansas

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:43:11 -0500
From: Thomas Martin <Thomas_Martin@css.mot.com>
Subject: RE: KREEN

I would NEVER put anything other than synthetic oil in my engine.  No
additives (snake oils) will ever get in my crankcase.  GM voids your
warranty for it, why use it?

Thomas Martin
85 Cutlass Supreme Rocket 350 CCC
91 Bonneville LE 3800
80 Turbo Trans AM 400 Pontiac




- -----Original Message-----
From: Kijowski, Stan [mailto:SKIJOWSKI@midland.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 1998 12:24 PM
To: 'OLDSMOBILE@CHEBUCTO.NS.CA'
Subject: KREEN


someone gave me a flyer on something called KREEN produced by KANO
LABORATORIES. it is some sort of "vunderbar" oil/engine additive. any
input
or opinions?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:44:46 -0500
From: "Doug Beavers" <dbtech@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: A/C Compressor

Anyone have ANY tips tricks or advice on swapping a Compressor on a '75 455
motor? Thanks in advance
dbtech@worldnet.att.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 13:57:53 EDT
From: <KS7RACING@aol.com>
Subject: Re: 455 weight

Mr. Rollin,

Thanks for posting that, I've always been curious about the weight of the
typical big block.  I wonder how much difference those Edelbrock aluminum
heads and intake would make.

On a related note, do you know how much a typical 350 Olds weighs?  I've also
been curious about the difference between the BB and SB weight-wise.

Thanks again,
Ken Snyder
Kansas City, Kansas

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:02:10 EDT
From: <W30442CS@aol.com>
Subject: Re: iroc olds / was shelby olds

  IROC huh?,  well how about a iroc rallye 305?  a fellow club member built
one!  just imagine a rallye 350, but with a iroc z 28 drive trane.
eng.,trans(od),rear end, even the rallye guages.      steven,
w30442cs@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:04:59 -0400
From: Ray Moriarty <rmoriarty@blairinc.com>
Subject: Re: making olds into sportscar vs. buying one

At 12:28 PM 6/23/98 -0400, Jonathan wrote:

>...(Forget rear disks everybody I've talked to says it's a complete waste
>of money and that it actually impedes the stopping ability)...


Ya know, I think I heard that too. It seems that modern cars which have
four wheel disk brakes actually stopped too well in a front disk/rear drum
configuration. Leagal departments industry wide, concerned about impending
lawsuits, urged engineers to reduce the ability of the cars in question to
stop. In reponse, automotive design was changed, and the overly efficient
rear drum brakes were reserved as a perk for base model cars.

What I found interesting was how drastically the stopping ability of disk
brakes changed when moved from the front wheels to the rear. Wow, who would
have thunk it?

>Extreme Sarcasm Mode Off<

The flame target formerly known as Ray can be more easily acquired at
rmoriarty@blairinc.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:03:31 -0700
From: "Chris Sparks (aka Mr. Ada)" <mrada@catalina-inter.net>
Subject: Re: Additives

This morning I was watching TV and saw an infomercial for Prolong Super
Additives (I believe).Is this stuff as great as they say it is?
- --
Chris Sparks
68 442 SC - Frosty
68 442 HT - Scarlet
68 442 HT - Saffron
82 DRB    - Dr. "B"
http://www.catalina-inter.net/mrada

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:04:27 -0400
From: Padavano.Joe@Orbital.COM
Subject: Re: Shelby olds? gimmie some info!

Wow, I must have missed something...what's a Shelby/olds?  can someone
give me some info, location on a picture, etc.?
$100000, huh....I'll have to start saving.
- -greg

   It's Carroll Shelby's last hurrah.  Carbon fiber body, aluminum frame,
   350 hp Aurora engine mounted north-south.  Something like 500 will be
   made.  The prototype was shown at the 1997 LA Auto Show, with customer
   cars apparently just now being produced.

   Joe Padavano
   padavano.joe@orbital.com

   66 442
   68 W-30
   69 H/O
   70 W-30

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:06:10 -0400
From: Padavano.Joe@Orbital.COM
Subject: IROC Cars

When will Olds pick up IROC???
Ch%vy had it, Chrysler trashed it, Pontiac now has it.  Olds turn is
next.....

     Hey, don't forget that the original IROC racers were Porsche 911s,
     with Mark Donohoe winning the first year.

     Joe Padavano
     padavano.joe@orbital.com

     66 442
     68 W-30
     69 H/O
     70 W-30

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 13:05:02 -0500
From: Thomas Martin <Thomas_Martin@css.mot.com>
Subject: RE: 455 weight

It probably means little to most, but FWIW.

The 301 Turbo and THM350 is said to weigh 4 lbs MORE than a 455 Pontiac
and THM400, (with alum intake and headers).

So in a Turbo Trans AM you can add a big motor and not have any weight
penalty!!

I had a program that listed engine weights some time ago, and it said a
350 Olds weighed in a 535, and a 307 Olds weighed in at 570.  I find
that hard to believe.  Can anyone set the record straight?

Thomas Martin
85 Cutlass Supreme Rocket 350 CCC
91 Bonneville LE 3800
80 Turbo Trans AM 400 Pontiac

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:08:59 PDT
From: "Chris Rivier" <crivier@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: 72 Supreme

$280 US for you Yanks.
********************************************************
For Gods Sakes Man......Don't part it out.

$280.....what a deal.  Down here they're real proud of '72 Supremes,
you'd be lucky to find a #5 for $1000.

Later,



Chris Rivier
'66 Delta 88..."The Beast" in progress.
'88 Festiva..."Zippy"  162K+@ 40 mpg, neeed I say more.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:10:00 EDT
From: <KS7RACING@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Backfires?

As a side note, the opposite happens on the track when we go into a corner and
close the throttle - the engine "pops" out the exhaust.  I'm sure it has to do
with the air/fuel mixture not being fully burned and the exhaust valves
opening sooner than the mixture wants them to.  Before they put racing
mufflers on the cars, it was more noticeable but even now some cars "pop" more
than others.

Just a half-cent here,

Ken Snyder
Kansas city, Kansas

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:10:22 -0400
From: Padavano.Joe@Orbital.COM
Subject: Re: making olds into sportscar vs. buying one

*12 front disk brakes from Master Power in place of the stock front disks.
   (Forget rear disks everybody I've talked to says it's a complete waste
of money and that it actually impedes the stopping ability)


     Well, while you're certainly entitled to your opinion, I find it hard
     to believe that every race car known to mankind (as well as virtually
     every new performance car sold) would use inferior disc brakes on the
     rear when drums are so much better....

     Joe Padavano
     padavano.joe@orbital.com

     66 442
     68 W-30
     69 H/O
     70 W-30

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:15:07 PDT
From: "Chris Rivier" <crivier@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Backfires?

If you address your inputs to:
oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca  it will go to oldsmobile-digest page rather
than to everyone who is signed up for the digest only.
*************************************************************
My $.02,

I don't mind the chatter list. It is informative...'learn something new
everyday.

TIA,

Chris Rivier
'66 Delta 88..."The Beast" in progress.
'88 Festiva..."Zippy"  162K+@ 40 mpg, neeed I say more.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:14:56 -0400
From: Padavano.Joe@Orbital.COM
Subject: RE: KREEN

Stan Kijowski wrote:
someone gave me a flyer on something called KREEN produced by KANO
LABORATORIES. it is some sort of "vunderbar" oil/engine additive. any
input or opinions?


     I got an info package on this stuff 15 years ago.  I was under the
     impression that it was a WD-40 type of product, not an engine oil
     additive.  Can't say that I've ever tried it, as it always sounded too
     good to be true.

     Joe Padavano
     padavano.joe@orbital.com

     66 442
     68 W-30
     69 H/O
     70 W-30

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 13:16:28 -0500
From: Thomas Martin <Thomas_Martin@css.mot.com>
Subject: RE: Additives

You try running a hydraulic lifter engine without oil, tell me how many
pushrods you bend......

That is a hoax, false advertising.  All must be solid lifter engines to
do what they show.  Sure, I can run an engine without oil, even put dirt
in it.  It will run.  Slick 50 used to do that.  ANY engine will run
without oil, but put a load on it, and it won't last long.  What is your
ROAD hp at 50 mph??  Most cars it is about 5 to 10 hp.  Jeez, lots of
force.....  And the V Groove test?  That is the most unscientific test
in the oil industry.  ANY oil can be made to pass or fail on that.  No
control, no REAL data taken.  Sorry, scrap that too.  They need to do a
4 ball wear with 60 KG pressure, and measure the scar.  Then I will
consider they data.  Mix it with oil at the ratio they suggest, and
measure.  I will bet money they do not do any better than the oil they
are using to mix it with.

What they don't show is what your pistons and rod bearing look like
afterwards.   They don't want you to see them.

Remember, Slick 50 got hammered for false advertising.  (Read Quaker
State.....)  They are more careful now.

They all have disclaimers now not to run your car without oil.  Saves
the lawsuits......

No matter how they make you feel, leave the snake oil to the dumpster.


BTW, the magic ingredient in Dura Lube and Prolong is chlorine.  Want
that in your engine?

Nothing beats a good quality Synthetic.   (No to mention, it is cheaper
to change to synthetic!!)

Thomas Martin
85 Cutlass Supreme Rocket 350 CCC
91 Bonneville LE 3800
80 Turbo Trans AM 400 Pontiac





- -----Original Message-----
From: Chris Sparks (aka Mr. Ada) [mailto:mrada@catalina-inter.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 1998 1:04 PM
To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: Re: Additives


This morning I was watching TV and saw an infomercial for Prolong Super
Additives (I believe).Is this stuff as great as they say it is?
- --
Chris Sparks
68 442 SC - Frosty
68 442 HT - Scarlet
68 442 HT - Saffron
82 DRB    - Dr. "B"
http://www.catalina-inter.net/mrada

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 13:19:23 -0500
From: Thomas Martin <Thomas_Martin@css.mot.com>
Subject: RE: making olds into sportscar vs. buying one

All depends on what the brake bias is set to.  Rear disc do better in
racing or HD applications.  Like a GMC 1t dually with rear disc, pulling
a 34 ft trailer thru the Rockies.....They all have their place.  My 80
T/A had then as an option, they could stop a 3800 lb car from 70 to 0 in
170 ft.  The non disc could not.  Different brake bias on those cars
too.  A car that brakes good dry will not wet, a car that brakes good
wet will not do well dry, etc.

Thomas Martin
85 Cutlass Supreme Rocket 350 CCC
91 Bonneville LE 3800
80 Turbo Trans AM 400 Pontiac



- -----Original Message-----
From: Padavano.Joe@orbital.com [mailto:Padavano.Joe@orbital.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 1998 1:10 PM
To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: Re: making olds into sportscar vs. buying one



*12 front disk brakes from Master Power in place of the stock front
disks.
   (Forget rear disks everybody I've talked to says it's a complete
waste
of money and that it actually impedes the stopping ability)


     Well, while you're certainly entitled to your opinion, I find it
hard
     to believe that every race car known to mankind (as well as
virtually
     every new performance car sold) would use inferior disc brakes on
the
     rear when drums are so much better....

     Joe Padavano
     padavano.joe@orbital.com

     66 442
     68 W-30
     69 H/O
     70 W-30

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:19:43 -0400
From: Padavano.Joe@Orbital.COM
Subject: RE: 455 weight

I had a program that listed engine weights some time ago, and it said a
350 Olds weighed in a 535, and a 307 Olds weighed in at 570.  I find
that hard to believe.  Can anyone set the record straight?
Thomas Martin

     The two numbers I've always heard were 590 lbs for a 350 Olds and 650
     lbs for a 455.  These are fully dressed with cast iron intakes.  I
     wouldn't be surprised to hear a number more like 535-550 for a W-31
     with the aluminum intake.  I seem to recall that the number for the
     W-30 with aluminum intake was closer to the low-600s.  Given a 590 lb
     350, 570 for a lightweight 307 makes sense.

     Joe Padavano
     padavano.joe@orbital.com

     66 442
     68 W-30
     69 H/O
     70 W-30

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:47:51 -0400
From: Jim Hurd <jhurd@neo.lrun.com>
Subject: 85-88 "G" Body Exhaust



        I was out today looking for a "test pipe" to replace my catalytic
converter.  4 or 5 years ago I bought a universal kit that enabled you to
get rid of your cat.  Seems no one makes these anymore no the we have
E-check (emissons).  Looks like I'm gonna have to fabricate something that
will allow me to switch back and forth so I can pass emissions.  Anyway I
checked out the prices for a "stock" dual exhaust system for the cutlass,
and thought I'd pass them on.

                        Parts America           Forest City Auto Parts

Intermediate Y Pipe        $49.xx                       $56.xx
Left Tailpipe              $20.xx                       $22.xx
Right Tailpipe             $20.xx                       $22.xx
Left Muffler               ------                       $56.xx
Right Muffler              ------                       $56.xx

Total out the door         $95.xx                       $220.xx

Both systems are the Walker 2.25" system, forgot to ask if they were
stainless or aluminized (??).




Jim H.
'87 Salon

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 13:56:22 -0500
From: Thomas Martin <Thomas_Martin@css.mot.com>
Subject: RE: 85-88 "G" Body Exhaust

I talked with Tom Lentz, and he recommended the Hooker duals for the 87
Grand National.  Bolts up to the 81-88 Cutlass with little mods.  All
you will need is a flange welded on the test pipe to bolt up to the
existing downpipe from the manifold.  Tom's has pictures on his site at
http://www.ior.com/~tlentz/hooker_exhaust.htm.

Summit had it and got it to me in 2 days, and cost $270.  Worth every
penny, no tax either!

And comes with a test pipe...

Thomas Martin
85 Cutlass Supreme Rocket 350 CCC
91 Bonneville LE 3800
80 Turbo Trans AM 400 Pontiac



- -----Original Message-----
From: Jim Hurd [mailto:jhurd@neo.lrun.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 1998 1:48 PM
To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: 85-88 "G" Body Exhaust




        I was out today looking for a "test pipe" to replace my
catalytic
converter.  4 or 5 years ago I bought a universal kit that enabled you
to
get rid of your cat.  Seems no one makes these anymore no the we have
E-check (emissons).  Looks like I'm gonna have to fabricate something
that
will allow me to switch back and forth so I can pass emissions.  Anyway
I
checked out the prices for a "stock" dual exhaust system for the
cutlass,
and thought I'd pass them on.

                        Parts America           Forest City Auto Parts

Intermediate Y Pipe        $49.xx                       $56.xx
Left Tailpipe              $20.xx                       $22.xx
Right Tailpipe             $20.xx                       $22.xx
Left Muffler               ------                       $56.xx
Right Muffler              ------                       $56.xx

Total out the door         $95.xx                       $220.xx

Both systems are the Walker 2.25" system, forgot to ask if they were
stainless or aluminized (??).




Jim H.
'87 Salon

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:09:31 EDT
From: mnbassman@juno.com (Pat a Kimber)
Subject: 77 question

I had a 77 cutlass (455 4bbl) that had to have one of the coolest FACTORY
options I've ever seen.  Outside of the rally mirrors there was a little
thermometer.  It was mounted just in front of the mirror and wasn't
attached to it.  After the car got wrecked I sold the thermometer to my
uncle.  Being the wiss bang electrition that he is, he decided to fix it.
 All because it was 3 degrees off.  You guessed it, he blow it up.  So
here are my questions?  First,  has anyone ever seen one of these?   b)
how rare are they?    And, where can I find another one?

Pat
mnbassman@juno.com

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:11:06 -0500
From: "Mark Tupper" <mtupper@palacenet.net>
Subject: Re: 85-88 "G" Body Exhaust

Jim,

>        I was out today looking for a "test pipe" to replace my catalytic
>converter.  4 or 5 years ago I bought a universal kit that enabled you to
>get rid of your cat.  Seems no one makes these anymore no the we have
>E-check (emissons).  Looks like I'm gonna have to fabricate something that
>will allow me to switch back and forth so I can pass emissions.

The reason you can't find a "test pipe" is probably because they are
illegal and a muffler shop would get in big trouble if it were found out
that you bought one from them.

It may be different from area to area, but if you ask for a converter
"install kit" which consists of flanges and clamps, and a "resonator"
pipe or just a flared pipe *this* (insert length here) long, you'll get
everything you need to make your "own" test pipe without getting
anyone else in trouble (except yourself). ;-)

Any muffler or parts shop should be able to get kit for you.


- -Mark Tupper   1987 442
 mtupper@palacenet.net       http://www.cyberglyphs.com/442/

>        I was out today looking for a "test pipe" to replace my catalytic
>converter.  4 or 5 years ago I bought a universal kit that enabled you to
>get rid of your cat.  Seems no one makes these anymore no the we have
>E-check (emissons).  Looks like I'm gonna have to fabricate something that
>will allow me to switch back and forth so I can pass emissions.  Anyway I
>checked out the prices for a "stock" dual exhaust system for the cutlass,
>and thought I'd pass them on.
>
>                        Parts America           Forest City Auto Parts
>
>Intermediate Y Pipe        $49.xx                       $56.xx
>Left Tailpipe              $20.xx                       $22.xx
>Right Tailpipe             $20.xx                       $22.xx
>Left Muffler               ------                       $56.xx
>Right Muffler              ------                       $56.xx
>
>Total out the door         $95.xx                       $220.xx
>
>Both systems are the Walker 2.25" system, forgot to ask if they were
>stainless or aluminized (??).
>
>
>
>
>Jim H.
>'87 Salon
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:21:04 -0400
From: "B. Vosburgh" <bob442@svic.net>
Subject: engine weights

1969 w31 350 dressed& wet alu int.  590lbs
1969w 30  400  dressed and wet  644lbs
1966 425 dressed & wet  no ac 648
1968  455 dressed and wet, no ac  660lbs
1969 455 dressed and wet , alu int, no ac 625lbs
1979 403 dressed and wet 659lbs
1979 350 gas dressed and wet 636lbs
 1970 455 dressed and wet , with ac 695 lbs
  From Mondello Tec. man.
Butch 68 442  post

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:32:33 -0400
From: Mark Hahn <mahahn@fuse.net>
Subject: Tic-Toc_Tach

I know there was alot of talk a while back about this.
However, I need to know what the going rate is for a rally pack with the
tic-toc-tach. Fits 70 thru 72 cutli.

Thanks

Mark Hahn
75 Delta 88 Royale Conv.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:45:44 -0400
From: Jonathan Parke <jonparke@together.net>
Subject: Re: Disks in rear VS. Drum

I wasn't meaning to sound like a know-it-all.  When I re-read my e-mail I
realized that I neglected to mention that a tech guy at Master Power had
told me that from his experience rear disks had made an adverse overall
effect on the stopping (something about the weight transfer in the a-body)
and that 12" disks up front was a much better use of money.  I've heard
this from other folks too.

I've no hard experience in the matter and appologize for giving an opion
based soley on conversation.  If you look at your computer screen real
close you'll be able to see me sitting here with my foot in my mouth.

If anybody has some experience with putting disks on the rear and seeing an
improvement over the drum I'd appreciate hearing from you.


>*12 front disk brakes from Master Power in place of the stock front disks.
>   (Forget rear disks everybody I've talked to says it's a complete waste
>of money and that it actually impedes the stopping ability)
>
>
>     Well, while you're certainly entitled to your opinion, I find it hard
>     to believe that every race car known to mankind (as well as virtually
>     every new performance car sold) would use inferior disc brakes on the
>     rear when drums are so much better....
>
>     Joe Padavano
>     padavano.joe@orbital.com
>
>     66 442
>     68 W-30
>     69 H/O
>     70 W-30

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:41:39 -0700
From: Eric Spence <ericsp@mail.ocis.net>
Subject: Red Line WaterWetter - Technical Information

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There was some talk about redline Waterwetter a month or so ago and I
have the site for the technical information for those interested at:

http://www.redlineoil.com/wwti.htm

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<HTML>
<TITLE>Red Line WaterWetter - Technical Information</TITLE>
<BODY BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF" TEXT="#000000" LINK="#FF0000" VLINK="#8E2323">
<CENTER>
<IMG SRC="rl-logox.gif">
<H1>RED LINE<FONT SIZE=2>&#174;</FONT>WaterWetter</H1>
<H2>TECHNICAL INFORMATION</H2>
<H4>Red Line Synthetic Oil Corp.</H4>
6100 Egret Court, Benicia, CA  94510
<BR><B>(707)745-6100</B>
<BR><FONT SIZE=1>&#169; 1998 Red Line Synthetic Oil Corp.</FONT>
<HR>
</CENTER>
<P>
Red Line WaterWetter is designed to provide improved metal
wetting and excellent corrosion inhibition when added to plain water or a 
glycol
coolant. The most poorly maintained system in an automobile is usually the
cooling system. Maintenance is quite simple and only required once each year,
but most vehicle owners never routinely change the coolant or replenish the
corrosion inhibitors which are required for trouble-free operation. Proper
cooling system maintenance is very critical for most modern engines which
utilize more aluminum. Aluminum has a very high corrosion potential, even 
higher
than zinc, which is very widely used as a sacrificial anode. The only property
which enables aluminum to be used in a cooling system is that it will form
protective films under the proper conditions which will prevent the 
uncontrolled
corrosive attack of acids or bases. Poor aluminum corrosion inhibition will
cause the dissolution of aluminum at the heat rejection surfaces, weakening the
cooling system walls and water pump casing and weakening the head gasket mating
surfaces. These corrosion products will then form deposits on the lower
temperature surfaces such as in radiator tubes which have very poor heat
transfer properties, causing a significant reduction in the cooling ability of
the entire system. Red Line WaterWetter will provide the proper corrosion
inhibition for all cooling system metals, including aluminum, cast iron, steel,
copper, brass, and lead. </P> <P> Water has twice the heat transfer capability
when compared to 50% glycol antifreeze/coolant in water. Most passenger
automobiles have a cooling system designed to reject sufficient heat under
normal operating conditions using a 50/50 glycol solution in water. However, in
racing applications, the use of water and WaterWetter will enable the use of
smaller radiator systems, which means less frontal drag, and it will also 
reduce
cylinder head temperatures, even when compared to water alone, which means more
spark advance may be used to improve engine torque. </P> <H3>BENEFIT
SUMMARY</H3> <UL TYPE=DISC> <LI>Doubles the wetting ability of water</LI>
<LI>Improves heat transfer</LI> <LI>Reduces cylinder head temperatures</LI>
<LI>May allow more spark advance for increased torque</LI> <LI>Reduces rust,
corrosion and electrolysis of all metals</LI> <LI>Provides long term corrosion
protection</LI> <LI>Cleans and lubricates water pump seals</LI> <LI>Prevents
foaming</LI> <LI>Reduces cavitation corrosion</LI> <LI>Complexes with hard 
water
to reduce scale</LI> </UL> <H3>COOLING SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS</H3> <P> The
conventional spark ignition gasoline engine is not a very efficient powerplant.
A considerable amount of the available fuel energy must be rejected from the
metal combustion chamber parts by the coolant and dispersed to the atmosphere
through the radiator. This heat rejection is necessary in order to prevent <IMG
SRC="wwfig1.gif" HSPACE=10 VSPACE=10 ALIGN=RIGHT> thermal fatigue of the
pistons, cylinder walls, and the cylinder head. Another problem is that the
combustion chamber must be cooled enough to prevent preignition and detonation.
The higher the combustion chamber temperatures, the higher the octane number
required to prevent preignition and detonation. Since the octane of the
available fuel is limited, increasing temperatures in the combustion chamber
require retarding the spark timing which reduces the peak torque available.
Higher inlet temperatures also reduce the density of the fuel/air mixture,
reducing available torque further. For these reasons reducing the flow of heat
to the coolant usually reduces the efficiency of the engine. Figure 1 shows a
typical heat balance diagram for a spark ignition engine. This diagram
demonstrates that the coolant in an automobile engine must absorb and reject
through the radiator 2 to 3 times the amount of energy which is converted to
brake power. </P><BR CLEAR> <H3>THERMAL PROPERTIES</H3> <P> Water has amazingly
superior heat transfer properties compared to virtually any other liquid 
cooling
medium - far superior to glycol-based coolants. As shown in <A
HREF="#TBL1">Table 1</A>, water has almost 2.5 times greater thermal
conductivity compared to glycol coolants. Mixtures of glycol and water have
nearly proportional improvement due to the addition of water. Most heat is
transferred in a cooling system by convection from hot metal to a cooler liquid
as in the engine block or from a hot liquid to cooler metal surfaces, as in the
radiator. The convection coefficient of liquids in a tube is a complicated
relationship between the thermal conductivity, viscosity of the liquid, and the
tube diameter which determines the amount of turbulent flow. Since 50/50 glycol
solution has about 4 times the viscosity and only 70% of the thermal
conductivity of water, the thermal convection coefficient for a 50/50 glycol
solution is approximately 50% of the coefficient for water. Water in the 
cooling
system is capable of transferring twice as much heat out of the same system as
compared to a 50/50 glycol coolant and water solution. In order for a 50/50
glycol mixture to reject as much heat as water (amount of heat rejected is
independent of the coolant), the temperature differentials at the heat transfer
surface must be twice as great, which means higher cylinder head temperatures.
</P> <CENTER> <A NAME="TBL1"></A> <TABLE CELLPADDING=5> <CAPTION><H3>Table
1<BR>Thermal Properties of Cooling System Materials</H3></CAPTION> <TR>
<TH>Material</TH> <TH>Density<BR>g/cm<sup>3</sup></TH>
<TH>Thermal<BR>Conductivity<BR>Watt/m<B> &#183;</B> &#176;C</TH>
<TH>Thermal<BR>Convection<BR>Watt/m<B> &#183;</B> &#176;C</TH>
<TH>Heat<BR>Capacity<BR>cal/g<B> &#183;</B> &#176;C</TH> <TH>Heat
of<BR>Vaporization<BR>cal/g</TH> </TR> <TR> <TD>Water</TD> <TD
ALIGN=CENTER>1.000</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>0.60</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>1829</TD>
<TD ALIGN=CENTER>1.000</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>539</TD> </TR> <TR> 
<TD>Glycol</TD>
<TD ALIGN=CENTER>1.114</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>0.25</TD> <TD
ALIGN=CENTER>------</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>0.573</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>226</TD>
</TR> <TR> <TD>50/50</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>1.059</TD> <TD 
ALIGN=CENTER>0.41</TD>
<TD ALIGN=CENTER>897</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>0.836</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>374</TD>
</TR> <TR><TD></TD></TR> <TR> <TD>Aluminum</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>2.70</TD> <TD
ALIGN=CENTER>155</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER></TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>0.225</TD> <TD
ALIGN=CENTER></TD> </TR> <TR> <TD>Cast Iron</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>7.25</TD> <TD
ALIGN=CENTER>58</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER></TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>0.119</TD> <TD
ALIGN=CENTER></TD> </TR> <TR> <TD>Copper</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>8.93</TD> <TD
ALIGN=CENTER>384</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER></TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>0.093</TD> <TD
ALIGN=CENTER></TD> </TR> <TR> <TD>Brass</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>8.40</TD> <TD
ALIGN=CENTER>113</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER></TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>0.091</TD> <TD
ALIGN=CENTER></TD> </TR> <TR> <TD>Ceramics</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER></TD> <TD
ALIGN=CENTER>1 - 10</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER></TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER></TD> <TD
ALIGN=CENTER></TD> </TR> <TR> <TD>Air</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>.0013</TD> <TD
ALIGN=CENTER>.026</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER></TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>0.240</TD> <TD
ALIGN=CENTER></TD> </TR> </TABLE> </CENTER> <H3>HEAT TRANSFER</H3> <P> Red Line
WaterWetter can reduce cooling system temperatures compared to glycol solutions
and even plain water. Water has excellent heat transfer properties in its 
liquid
state, but very high surface tension makes it difficult to release water vapor
from the metal surface. Under heavy load conditions, much of the heat in the
cylinder head is transferred by localized boiling at hot spots, even though the
bulk of the cooling solution is below the boiling point. Red Line's unique
WaterWetter reduces the surface tension of water by a factor of two, which 
means
that much smaller vapor bubbles will be formed. Vapor bubbles on the metal
surface create an insulating layer which impedes heat transfer. Releasing these
vapor bubbles from the metal surface can improve the heat transfer properties 
in
this localized boiling region by as much as 15% as shown in Figure 2. This
figure demonstrates the removal of heat from an aluminum bar at 304&#176;F by
quenching the bar in different coolants at 214&#176;F under 15 psi pressure.
Compare the time required to reduce the temperature of the aluminum to
250&#176;F, or the boiling point of water at 15 psi. WaterWetter required 3.2
seconds, water alone 3.7 sec, 50/50 glycol in water required 10.2 sec, and 100%
glycol required 21 sec. Water alone required 15% longer, 50/50 glycol 220%
longer, and 100% glycol required 550% longer. </P> <CENTER><IMG 
SRC="wwfig2.gif"
VSPACE=10></CENTER> <H3>DYNO TEST RESULTS</H3> <P> Dynomometer tests performed
by Malcolm Garrett Racing Engines showed significant improvements in coolant
temperatures using WaterWetter. These tests were performed with a Chevrolet 350
V-8 with a cast iron block and aluminum cylinder heads. The thermostat
temperature was 160&#176;F. The engine operated at 7200 rpm for three hours and
the stabilized cooling system temperature was recorded and tabulated below: 
</P>
<CENTER> <TABLE CELLPADDING=5> <TR>
  <TH>Cooling System Fluid</TH>
  <TH>Stabilized Temperature</TH>
</TR>
<TR>
  <TD>50% Glycol/ 50% Water</TD>
  <TD ALIGN=CENTER>228&#176;F</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
  <TD>50/50 with WaterWetter</TD>
  <TD ALIGN=CENTER>220&#176;F</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
  <TD>Water</TD>
  <TD ALIGN=CENTER>220&#176;F</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
  <TD>Water with WaterWetter</TD>
  <TD ALIGN=CENTER>202&#176;F</TD>
</TR>
</TABLE>
</CENTER>
<P>
These numbers are similar to the temperatures recorded in track use and
heavy-duty street use. </P> <H3>COOLANT EFFECTS ON PERFORMANCE</H3> <P> Under
moderate load conditions, each percent glycol raises cylinder head temperatures
by 1&#176;F. 50% glycol raises head temperatures by 45&#176;F. This increase in
temperature will raise the octane required for trace knock levels by typically
3.5 octane numbers. A car equipped with a knock sensor will retard the timing 
to
compensate for the increase in octane requirement by approximately 5&#176;,
which will reduce the maximum brake torque by about 2.1%. Racing vehicles not
equipped with knock sensors can advance timing for increased torque. </P>
<CENTER> <H2>Performance Properties of Coolants</H2> <TABLE CELLPADDING=5> <TR>
<TH></TH> <TH><U>Water + <BR>Red Line</U></TH> <TH><U>50% Glycol</U></TH>
<TH><U>70% Glycol</U></TH> </TR> <TR> <TD>Increase in Cylinder <BR>Head
Temperature</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>Baseline</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>+45&#176;</TD>
<TD ALIGN=CENTER>+65&#176;</TD> </TR> <TR> <TD>Increase in Octane <BR>(RON)
Requirement</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>Baseline</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>+3.5</TD> <TD
ALIGN=CENTER>+5.0</TD> </TR> <TR> <TD>Change in Spark Timing<BR> for Trace
Knock</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>Baseline</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>-5.2&#176;</TD> <TD
ALIGN=CENTER>-7.5&#176;</TD> </TR> <TR> <TD>Change in Torque</TD> <TD
ALIGN=CENTER>Baseline</TD> <TD ALIGN=CENTER>-2.1%</TD> <TD
ALIGN=CENTER>-3.1%</TD> </TR> </TABLE> </CENTER> <H3>BOILING POINT
ELEVATION</H3> <P> Red Line WaterWetter does not significantly increase the
boiling point of water; however, increasing pressure will raise the boiling
point. The boiling point of water treated with Red Line using a 15 psi cap is
250&#176;F compared to 265&#176;F at 15 psi for 50% glycol. Increasing the
pressure by 50% to 23 psi will increase the boiling point of water to
265&#176;F. Because of the doubling of the ability of the radiator to transfer
heat, boilover using Red Line treated water is not a problem as long as the
engine is circulating coolant through the head and the fan is circulating air.
Sudden shutdown after very hard driving may cause boilover. </P>

<H3>FREEZING POINT DEPRESSION</H3>
<P>
Red Line WaterWetter does not significantly reduce the freezing point of water.
If the vehicle will see freezing temperatures, an antifreeze must be used. 
Water
expands approximately 9% upon freezing which can cause severe engine damage.
Even in summertime, the use of air-conditioning can blow freezing air through
the heater and cause freezing of the heater core unless approximately 20%
antifreeze is used. </P> <H3>CORROSION PROTECTION</H3> <P> Modern automotive
engines now use aluminum for heads, radiators, water pump housings, and nearly
all hose fittings. These engines require significantly greater corrosion
protection than their cast iron counterparts of the past. Aluminum is such an
electroactive metal that it requires an impenetrable corrosion inhibitor film 
to
prevent rapid corrosion. Acid neutralization capability is very important.
Coolant which has been left in a cooling system for several years has probably
become acidic from the oxidation of the glycol to acids. Also, keeping the
glycol concentration in the cooling system below 50% will help stability. </P>
<P> Red Line also provides excellent protection from cavitation erosion in the
water pump and cylinder head. Localized boiling in the cylinder head forms 
vapor
bubbles which collapse when they come in contact with cooler liquids. This
collapse creates tremendous shock waves which removes the inhibitor film from
the aluminum surface and can cause catastrophic erosion of the aluminum if the
inhibitor does not reform the film quickly. Another problem created by
cavitation erosion is the deposition of the removed aluminum as a salt with 
poor
heat transfer properties in the lower temperature radiator tubes. Red Line
prevents this corrosion through effective film formation and smaller vapor
bubble formation, which has a less violent collapse. Foam control is equally
important since entrained air will cause cavitation erosion due to the collapse
of foam bubbles. Red Line provides excellent control of foam with water alone
and glycol solutions. </P> <P> Most coolants additives on the market provide
only protection for iron and perhaps moderate protection for aluminum. The 
milky
soluble oil types can actually impede heat transfer by wetting the metal 
surface
with oil and this oil can swell and soften rubber coolant hoses. Table 3 shows
the many tests which the Red Line formula will satisfy and how it compares to a
standard antifreeze. </P> <H3>SLIPPERINESS OF COOLANTS</H3> <P> Red Line
WaterWetter does not alter the frictional property of tire rubber and water on 
a
pavement surface. The chart below shows the static and dynamic friction of
pavement wetted with different coolant types. Higher friction indicates less
slipperiness. The dynamic friction indicates the increase in slipping which
occurs after the tire begins to break loose. Water and water with WaterWetter
reduce the friction relative to dry pavement about 50%, but it is much less 
than
the reduction in friction caused by ethylene glycol and even more slippery is
propylene glycol. </P> <CENTER><IMG SRC="wwfig3.gif" VSPACE=10></CENTER> 
<H3>USE
DIRECTIONS</H3> <P> One 12 ounce bottle treats 12-16 quarts of water or a 50%
ethylene or propylene glycol solution. In smaller cooling systems, use 4-5 caps
per quart. Add directly through the cooling system fill cap into the radiator 
or
into the overflow tank. Do not open a cooling system while hot. For best
protection for aluminum, replenish or replace every 15,000 miles. The
anti-scaling ingredients in Red Line WaterWetter allow its use with ordinary 
tap
water. However, using with distilled or deionized water will accomplish some
scale removal in the cylinder head area. For maximum temperature reductions use
the most water and the least antifreeze possible to prevent freezing in your
climate. Even in summertime the use of air-conditioning can blow freezing air
through the heater and cause freezing of the heater core unless approximately
20% antifreeze is used. Red Line WaterWetter
 is available in 12 ounce containers.
</P>
<H3>DESIGNED FOR PERFORMANCE</H3>
<P>
Red Line Synthetic Oil Corporation is the leader in lubricant and fuel system
chemistry. Red Line manufactures a full line of automotive products which are
designed to provide noticeable improvements in performance. Other Red Line
products are: </P> <MENU> <LI>Diesel Fuel Catalyst - with Fuel Lubricant</LI>
<LI>85 Plus Diesel Fuel Additive - with Fuel Lubricant</LI> <LI>Diesel Fuel
Biostat - Antimicrobial Agent</LI> <LI>SI-1 Fuel Injector & Intake Valve
Cleaner</LI> <LI>SI-2 Injector & Valve Detergent -BMW # 8888 6 900307 Lead
Substitute</LI> <LI>Motor Oils - 5W30, 10W30, 10W40, 15W50, 20W50</LI>
<LI>Diesel Engine Oil - 15W40</LI> <LI>Race Oils - SAE 20, 30, 40, 50, 60</LI>
<LI>High-Performance Two-cycle Lubricants</LI> <LI>Gear Oils - Lightweight,
75W90, 75W90NS, 80W140</LI> <LI>ShockProof Gear Oils- SuperLight, Lightweight,
Heavy</LI> <LI>MTL- Manual Transmission/Manual Transaxle Lubricant</LI> <LI>ATF
- Synthetic Dexron II, High-Temp ATF, Racing ATF</LI> <LI>CV-2   CV-Joint and
Wheel Bearing Grease</LI> <LI>Assembly Lubricant</LI> <LI>Synthetic Compressor
Lubricants</LI> <LI>Synthetic Suspension Fluids</LI> </MENU> <CENTER> <HR> <P>
<A HREF="index.htm">[Home]</A> <A HREF="whatnew.htm">[What's New]</A> <A
HREF="prod.htm">[Product Info]</A> <A HREF="about.htm">[About Red Line]</A> <A
HREF="contact.htm">[Contacting Red Line]</A> <A
HREF="msports.htm">[Motorsports]</A> <A
HREF="./tests/testimon.htm">[Testimonials]</A> <A
HREF="./apparel/apparel.htm">[Apparel]</A> <A HREF="dealers.htm">[Dealers]</A>
</P> </CENTER> </BODY> <ADDRESS> <FONT SIZE=-1> <CENTER> <P><IMG
SRC="rl-logosm.gif" align=right>Copyright &#169; 1998 Red Line Synthetic Oil
Corporation.</P> </CENTER> </FONT> </ADDRESS> </HTML> -
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