Please respond to oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca @ INTERNET
To:	oldsmobile-digest@chebucto.ns.ca @ INTERNET
cc:	 
Subject:	oldsmobile-digest V1 #1335


oldsmobile-digest        Sunday, June 28 1998        Volume 01 : Number 1335



Re: Lockup rear brakes on G-Body
Re: 307 Ex. Manifold...
Re: J motor?!
Re: Officers of the law question
Re: Gold & chrome 15x7 SSII's
Re: 260 Die&sell
Re: Dashpot Explanation & attachment FAQ request
Re: Lockup rear brakes on G-Body
Virtual Car Show Stats
Web Site
68 and 69 Cutlass Fenders
Re: 1975 442
"BT" TH-400 in my olds!
Re: 60's Toro For Sale
Re: illegal racing "penalties"
electronic ignition conversion
Re: "BT" TH-400 in my olds!
1955 OLDS  HOLIDAY (fwd)
TH350 Rebuild Started!
Re: TH350 Rebuild Started!
disk swap? no
How to download any software for FREE.
Transmissions, Bandwidth, Web Pages
re: 85 Cutlass
pepper/ overheating
Re: Igor's timing
Re: pepper/ overheating
more 330 tips
Re: pepper/ overheating
RE: museum visit and storm tips
moron the gold/chrome wheels
Re: pepper/ overheating
wtd: black 71 Cs/VC bench seat & r. seat
Re: pepper/ overheating
Re: pepper/ overheating
Oldsmobile Performance for a 1986 Olds Custom Crusier
72 Cutlass front end rebuild advice
Re: TH350 Rebuild Started!
re: illegal racing "penalties"
Returned mail: User unknown
rear disc(my two bits)
Re: "BT" TH-400 in my olds!
Re: A/C Diagnosis

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 17:29:12 -0400
From: Jerry Christopher <ithefunki@viperlink.net>
Subject: Re: Lockup rear brakes on G-Body

Thomas Martin wrote:

> Any thoughts?  No contamination, brakes have been setup identical,
> probably bled once or twice over the years.  But remember, it came from
> Olds doing this.  So old/new, it has always done it.

Is it possible to have a small piece of debris or gunk sitting on the
wall of the brake line?  I've seen some odd things come from the
factory.

Or is there a proportioner used to equalize the braking among all four
areas?  I know there is aftermarket ones...  My 77 Mustang used a block
to equalize the front and rear, but when off center, it would let the RR
lock up freely, and normally at will...  Man, I hated seeing oncoming
traffic, and flat spots on tires...  <G>  Took me a while to figure it
out.  But you had to take a screw driver (If I remember right) and reset
to positioner to dead center for it to work right.

Even though it has been screwy since the day it rolled outta the
factory, I would check the lines still.  <G> I would also advise against
anything that would be a "quick" fix, or a modification to make it work
right, since like you said, it's been there since the beginning...  I
would advise to find the problem before upgrading.........  :)
- --
                - Jerry Christopher -
IRC - EFNet:IThEFunKI - #SouthCarolina -#Olds - #Ford
       HTTP://Members.Viperlink.Net/IThEFunKI

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:32:43 -0500
From: "Mark Tupper" <mtupper@palacenet.net>
Subject: Re: 307 Ex. Manifold...

Jerry,
>
>What is the RPO Code for the 87 Y 307???
>--

LD5 = 3.8L V6 2-bbl (std)
LV2 = 5.0L V8 4-bbl (1)
LG8 = 5.0L V8 4-bbl HO (3)

- -Mark Tupper    1987 442
 mtupper@palacenet.net        http://www.cyberglyphs.com/442/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:37:10 -0600
From: Charley Buehner <buehner@lyrea.com>
Subject: Re: J motor?!

> -------------
> Wow, there's a J casting motor now?!!!
> What is it, a 456?

No, no, no...  Everyone knows that's that ultra common 442 cid motor.  It was
dealer installed on several of those mid 70's monte carlos!

 :)
Oldsmagnet

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:40:20 -0600
From: Charley Buehner <buehner@lyrea.com>
Subject: Re: Officers of the law question

> They're having donuts right now. They don't want to get crumbs on their
> keyboards.

Well, if ~nothing~ else, this should serve as an indicator for the varying
private impressions of the law enforcement...

Oldsmagnet
 (who somehow lost the sig file...  Have to make another one, maybe a 35 liner
to be reposted by all who respond... --Just kidding Chris!)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:46:25 -0600
From: Charley Buehner <buehner@lyrea.com>
Subject: Re: Gold & chrome 15x7 SSII's

> Four NOS absolutely untouched gold & chrome SSII wheels.
>
> Yours for only $1M.

Or, if you act now, get the ~entire~ set, for the low low price of only
$3.8M!!!  That's an incredible savings of $200000 when you purchase the entire
set!  It's almost like getting one centercap for ~free~!!!  Hurry, sale ends
soon.  At this price, they ~won't~ last long!

Too bad about that intake, I just paid $600K for mine!

	(I ~hope nobody ~actually~ believes that...)

Oldsmagnet--currently on way to rob a very big bank!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:51:49 -0600
From: Charley Buehner <buehner@lyrea.com>
Subject: Re: 260 Die&sell

He always
> said, "revenge is hell, gentlemen..."  :-)

Yeah, how's that go?  I don't get mad I get even?  No wait.  That don't work 
for
me.
	I don't get even, I get ahead!  ;)

Oldsmagnet

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:00:56 -0600
From: Charley Buehner <buehner@lyrea.com>
Subject: Re: Dashpot Explanation & attachment FAQ request

> Can anyone take a small time (or directed to) to explain me which is the
function and how a dashpot carb works?

The dashpot is sort of a shock absorber for the throttle.  When you're cruising
along, and suddenly let off the gas pedal, the throttles slam shut quickly,
which tends to cause the mixture to richen too much.  Which leads to sputtering
and stalling.  The extra vacuum caused by the sudden throttle closure while
still above idle pulls too much fuel through the carb's idle circuit.  Poor for
drivability, big cause of stalling at stop lights.  The dashpot is a spring
loaded stop to slow the closing of the throttle plates.  When the throttle 
snaps
shut, the linkage hits the dashpot about 1/4" before closed throttle.  From
here, the throttle closure is slowed, giving the vacuum and RPM to catch up to
each other, so to speak.

>
>    Part 1.2       Type: application/ms-tnef
>               Encoding: base64

What exactly was that supposed to be?  Netscape wanted a plug in, which, from a
list standpoint, scares me.  Whatever program that is that automatically
attaches text as an ~attachment~ really makes me nervous.  Too hard to know
what's being attached.  I'm sure the digest members cringe at the thought of 
it,
too.  Any users of that program care to shed some light on the functionality of
it?  Maybe something to add to the list FAQ for how to get out of it?  The
majority of the messages are on the same page as the header, this clicking on
"part 1.1" etc. has to have a better way.  Any thoughts?

Oldsmagnet
List FAQ at http://www.lyrea.com/~buehner/listfaq.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:41:29 -0600
From: Oldsmagnet <buehner@lyrea.com>
Subject: Re: Lockup rear brakes on G-Body

> > Any thoughts?  No contamination, brakes have been setup identical,
> > probably bled once or twice over the years.  But remember, it came from
> > Olds doing this.  So old/new, it has always done it.

Been kinda watching in the wings on this post.  Several things come to mind at
first, but since it's ~always~ done it, the list narrows somewhat.

My first thoughts are some kind of suspension/weight dynamics problem
happening.  Like the one locking wheel has considerably less effective weight 
on
it, or the front brakes are just too good, allowing too much weight transfer
foreward.  Are they stock tires?  (Did the dealer possibly install something
bigger than stock?)  Anything done to increase the performance of the front
brakes will also increase the lockup potential of the rears.  This is where an
adjustable proportioning valve comes in handy.  (The FE3X - "Darth Vader" has
one in the center console.  Too cool!)  Anyway, in ~that~ situation, the fact
that only one tire's locking would be just a weight distribution problem, cuz
they'd ~both~ be likely to lock up together.  Of course, with just a driver in
the car, that might be enough weight on the left side...

Another possibility is that the self adjusters aren't functioning, and never 
got
set at the factory.  This is probably much more common than one would think,
since they're supposed to be automatic, and many shops only get them set up at 
a
ballpark point.  They're adjusted by hitting the brakes hard while backing up.
Don't usually have to go very fast, usually 5 mph is fine.  Several abrupt 
stops
in reverse, and they should be adjusted properly, providing the adjusters 
work.

Since you'd commented about doing an axle swap, we'll just concentrate on
~preventative~ measures first.  Be sure to replace the rubber line between the
body and the axle.  They have a habit of popping after several years.  They're
pricey, though.  Be warned.  While you're at it, check the fronts, too.  
They'll
wake you up in a hurry when they go (notice I didn't say ~if~)  Bleed most of
the old fluid out ~before~ changing the brake parts.  That way any contaminated
fluid won't affect your new parts.  (Make sure to change the axle seals, too.
Hate to ruin a new break job with 90W -- And it will)  Take your time prepping
the backing plates.  There's usually six (I think 6???) raised bosses that the
shoes ride on.  Shine them guys up good with emory cloth or wire brush, etc.
Make sure all the rust is gone, so the shoes can move about freely.  I usually
clean the whole thing up as best as possible (sand blast if possible?  Then 
sand
the moving surfaces smooth if req)  Paint as desired (I usually use some 
hi-temp
black, just for rust prevention.)  Lubricate the 6(?) rubbing bosses and the
shoe's main pivot stud at top using white lithium grease (Only kind to use!)
Don't get too western with it, just a light coverring.

Always a good idea to replace the spring/linkage sets, too.  Cost isn't too
outragous.  I've always reused mine, without problems, but I've gone without
brakes on so many outfits that I don't really get too concerned myself.  For
someone ~else's~ car on the other hand, that extra piece of mind is well worth
the $$$.  Looks a hell of a lot better, too.  Whichever you use, you'll want to
completely unthread the adjuster bolt assembly and clean it ~thoroughly~, being
careful not to lose any of the parts (I ~think~ they had a little wavy washer
between the end pieces and the center bolt.  Right?  Can't remember for sure)
Anyway, lube that assembly up with the white grease, too.  It has to be able to
run up and down the threads freely, and the ends cannot have any resistance to
turning, either.

Be sure to treat any metal-to metal moving parts to a touch of the grease, as
well.

Another cause of suspension dynamic weight problems might be a bad shock above
the offending tire.  You'll want to double check those, too.  Inspect the steel
line from the center link to the outer wheel cylinders.  Look for any dings,
nicks, kinks, anything.  Do this on the new axle too, just in case.  Possible 
it
took a rock, or a chain link on the delivery truck.  Never know.

Basically, if it's a ~brake~ problem, it has to occur somewhere ~on~ the axle,
i.e. ~after~ it hits the "T" block there.  If you've gone through that whole
assembly, and still have a problem with one wheel locking up, I'd blame it on a
dynamic weight transfer problem.  From here, I'd try redistributing anything 
you
can.  Is the spare tire in the right place?  Might consider moving
battery/toolbox/amprack/etc to rear of car/other side of trunk/etc. to try to
compensate.  Maybe take it somewhere that can weigh each corner independantly?
Give you a ballpark to shoot at, anyway.

These cars ~do~ have a proportioning valve, it's on the frame rail directly
below the steering column, and master cylinder.  There's an electrical 
connector
on it to trigger the warning light.  This is the resetting step Jerry C. was
talking about.  I don't think you'll need to worry about ~that~ on these cars,
I've never seen one stick.  I think some of the fo*ds had to be manually reset,
but I never dealt with any of 'em.  This it the item you might need to change,
if you end up with a back brake setup that's either doing too much or too 
little
of the braking.  Right now, I'd say they're doing too much, but that'll change
with the other axle.  More hanging weight back there, that'll change things a
bit.  If you get a lock-up problem again, and weight redistribution can't cure
it, you'll want to go with an adjustable proportional valve.  Or different tire
size in back, which I'm guessing will be happening with a new axle.

Holy Crap that's long!
	(The ~posting~  ...I'm not quoting a presidential intern!)

Oldsmagnet

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 17:54:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bryceman <bryceman@442.com>
Subject: Virtual Car Show Stats

AccessWatch web stats have been added to 442.com so if you would like
to see how many hits your Virtual Car Show entry is getting check it
out. AccessWatch gathers data every 24hrs and updates the stats at
1:00AM Central. Each time you check the AccessWatch page, you will be
viewing activity for the PREVIOUS day. No running totals are kept. Let
me know what you think.


The direct URL is  http://442.com/access.html

The only link to the AW page at this time is from the Comments page.


When the AW page is finished loading, scroll down to the section
listing each html page by name to see how many hits you car has gotten.
Pages recieving 0 (zero) hits will not be listed.
Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Oldsmobiles!

'66 Dynamic 88 B07 Apprehender

'65 442 Post Coupe

'65 Vista Cruiser

'72 H/O Convertible Pace Car Replica

Email: bryceman@442.com  URL: www.442.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:17:24 -0700
From: Greg Rollin <supercars@transport.com>
Subject: Web Site

And now from the Shameless Self Promotion Dept........

The Supercars Unlimited web site is done!

Come one, come all.  Check it out.
Let me know what you think!

- --
Greg Rollin
Supercars Unlimited (Where Cutlass/4-4-2 is ALL we do!) 503-244-8249
http://www.supercarsunlimited.com
E-mail: supercars@transport.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:31:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Pajak <jspajak@yahoo.com>
Subject: 68 and 69 Cutlass Fenders

     Gib, hope this msg isn't too late. Been catching up on the
digests. You CAN put 68 Cutlass fenders on a 69...I've done it. If the
fender doesn't have 5 holes in the hinge attaching area, then all you
need to do is drill the 3 missing holes. Use any 69-72 fender as a
sample for the hole locations. Then, weld 3/8" nuts to fender washers
and weld these homemade 'weld nuts' to the fender. Or you could cut
the weld nuts off of junk fenders and use those.
     More trivia: I had a fender that must have been a factory 68/69
replacement since it had weld nuts on all 5 holes!
     Also, you have to use the 69 pieces at the fronts of the fenders
behind the headlights...I forget what these are called but 68 and 69
are different.



==
"2 + 2 = 5 for sufficiently large values of 2"

John Pajak
Lexington Park, Maryland

Check out our Oldsmobiles and more at
http://members.tripod.com/~JSPajak
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:01:56 +0100
From: Matt Cremean <ccremean@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu>
Subject: Re: 1975 442

DYeager535@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 98-06-26 20:40:57 EDT, you write:
>
> << What color is the interior? >>
> Black, if I remember correctly..at least the seats were. Dorian

Damn! White swivel Buckets would be awesome in my car!

- --
*************
Matt Cremean
mailto:ccremean@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
         777777 33333
            77      33
Cutlass    77    3333   Supreme
          77        33
         77     33333
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/3973/
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 19:58:30 -0400
From: Ken <olds442@en.com>
Subject: "BT" TH-400 in my olds!

Anyone know what the "BT" code means for a th-400? Didn't find it in the
faq.  I'm assuming I have a buick trans in my olds..

Ken

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:17:44 +0100
From: Matt Cremean <ccremean@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu>
Subject: Re: 60's Toro For Sale

Matt Cremean wrote:
>
> It's sitting on 223 on the way to Round Lake, MI. I see it every time I go.
> I'll get some info and maybe test drive it. The body is in rough shape. It
> looks to be a 66-67, I'm no Toro aficionado though. What I find out, I'll
post. >

There is also a 1970 Toro sitting right next to it. I didn't even
recognize it!!!! This one is in better shape than the 66. I didn't talk
to anybody because they weren't home. If I go up tomorrow, I'll see who
I can talk to.

The 66 has a bad body, drk blue, pretty beat up.
The 70 is in better general shape, is missing the driver's side mirror,
is a really light robin's egg blue.

- --
*************
Matt Cremean
mailto:ccremean@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
         777777 33333
            77      33
Cutlass    77    3333   Supreme
          77        33
         77     33333
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/3973/
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:20:36 +0100
From: Matt Cremean <ccremean@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu>
Subject: Re: illegal racing "penalties"

Jim and Pat Juon wrote:
>
> "Deserted" country roads may not be as they look.  They may have slow
> moving equipment or someone out for a bike ride and the penalty you pay for
> drag racing could be much higher than monetary.  Please keep the racing at
> the drag strip.

Well, in Blissfield, when we usually race, we either all hang out at the
Frosty Boy and then pick our races there and go out to back roads, or we
find some fresh blood cruising through town as we are crusing the strip.
We get next to them and play, and if they show game, we lead them out to
country roads. I think it's pretty safe.

- --
*************
Matt Cremean
mailto:ccremean@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
         777777 33333
            77      33
Cutlass    77    3333   Supreme
          77        33
         77     33333
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/3973/
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:15:14 EDT
From: <KASOLDS@aol.com>
Subject: electronic ignition conversion

Im thinking about converting the ignition in my 70 442 to electronic ignition.
I have been looking at the kit that Year One sells that fits under the stock
distributor.  Does anybody know anything about this kit?  Can you switch back
to points are is this totally permenant?  How difficult is this kit to
install?  Does anyone recommend another type of electronic ignition that fits
under the stock distributor cap?
Thanks
Keith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:14:51 EDT
From: <DYeager535@aol.com>
Subject: Re: "BT" TH-400 in my olds!

Ken,
       The way I understand it, the first letter is the division. B for Buick,
obviously. The second letter, I have been told, tells the relative "strength"
if you will, of the trans. A being lightest duty, progressively "stronger"
until..? Usually more clutches and steels. I, however, have a 400 with a code
that starts with some letter that isn't B,O,P, or even C. (can't remember what
exactly it is) Anyone know for sure the codes?   Dorian

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:59:31 -0300 (ADT)
From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Subject: 1955 OLDS  HOLIDAY (fwd)

Sent to me personally, respond to Hogster93@aol.com if you want details.

Greg Beaulieu    ab348@chebucto.ns.ca    Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Hogster93@aol.com
Subject: 1955 OLDS  HOLIDAY

THOUGHT ID DROP YOU LINE AND SAY MY  BRO. IS LOOKING FOR SOME ONE TO BUY HIS
1955 OLDS HOLIDAY   EXCELLENT COND.   IF INTERESTED  OR ANY ONE YOU KNOW IS
INTERESTED   CONTACT ME AT  HOGSTER93@AOL.COM

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:09:57 -0300 (ADT)
From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Subject: TH350 Rebuild Started!

A dark, rainy day today, perfect to spend indoors working in the garage.
I decided to get the rebuild of the TH350 from the parts car underway to
swap into my Cutlass. Just in time I think; the Jetaway is starting to
make me suspicious of it.

Nothing major today, just scrubbed the dirt and mud off the case and
spent a couple of hours with wire wheels cleaning the outside of the
case. Will shine up nicely for clearcoating I think. No surprises so
far. Dropped the pan and though there was some grey residue in there it
looked very clean inside, considering the fluid we drained out of it
looked like Hershey's syrup.

A couple of questions:

1) This one has a switch on the case that looks just like an oil pressure
sending unit. I assume it's for the transmission controlled spark feature
which I'm not going to use of course. I removed it because it was looking
pretty questionable. Are these things threaded with a taper or will a
pipe plug seal the hole?

2) Does anyone have a copy of the TH350 rebuild book sold by Classic
Motorbooks, Year One and others they might like to sell me cheap? I'm
going to buy the kit and do it myself but I need that book.

Thanks in advance!

Greg Beaulieu    ab348@chebucto.ns.ca    Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:25:02 EDT
From: <DYeager535@aol.com>
Subject: Re: TH350 Rebuild Started!

Greg, you revbuilt a 350 before, and what year is the trans? Dorian

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:57:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Subject: disk swap? no

Whats with all this talk of drums anyway??? Havent you guys been keeping up
with the list we are all going over to rear disks :)
- ------------------------------
Nope, some cars like my convert must retain the manual drum brakes for
originality. It's quite an experience driving a large-motor car with "darn near
adequate" brakes, makes one really appreciate disk brakes.
- --
Chris Witt  *the* Rocket Scientist
1968 442 convertible, originally & to be again W30, et. al
Lansing, MI :=: wittchri@pilot.msu.edu
- --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:46:42 -0300
From: <gerald@jet2.net>
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 18:05:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Pajak <jspajak@yahoo.com>
Subject: Transmissions, Bandwidth, Web Pages

Transmissions:
     Hey Jason Adcock, change that TH200! Put in a TH350! I did it to
my 86 Supreme when it wouldn't back up anymore. I was informed that
the 200 has stamped internal parts (vs cast) and wasn't really worth
rebuilding. So in went a TH350. I didn't have the $$$ for a lockup
version so I used a standard TH350. I just don't have the lockup
feature but since the energization is just an output of the elctronics
I have suffered no ill effects. Get the lockup version if budget
permits.......
     You can use you existing driveshaft and shift linkage. You do
need a different kickdown assy. I used:
1: GM # 1262622 downshift cable (77 Delta TH350)
2: throttle cable/downshift cable bracket from 1977 TH350 Delta 88 (or
any similar year TH350 equipped Olds). The original bracket places the
trans cable too far rearward. Maybe there exists a cable that would
work with the original TH200 bracket (??) But I know the stuff I used
will work for you.
     Also I counted the speedo drive/driven gears in the original
trans: 19 drive/34 driven.  My car has 2.14 gears and did not have FE2
originally so it probably had 195-75R14 tires when new. You need to
come up with the drive gear...you can't easily get the old one out of
the 200 since it has no removeable extension housing! You can reuse
your current driven gear.
     Some trivia: the only reason GM put TH200 behind the V8 was to
meet the silly government mandates which dictate required MPG based on
weight. The V8/TH350 was too heavy so the slightly lighter TH200 was
substituted.
V6 cars got the TH350! Some cars got aluminum hoods and front bumper
reinforcements as GM was slicing weight everywhere they could to meet
these laws.

Bandwidth:
     Ray Moriary- I want to see pix of your 70 W30 stick (on your web
site of course!). I'm no internet genius but I've been able to cobble
something together. Get a free web page from Tripod, Geocities, etc
and go wild! Be sure to drop in and check out my page: most of my cars
are unfinished but they all have potential!
     I think I speak for the majority of car fans in that we'd rather
see an imperfect one than none at all. Coming soon...pictures of my 70
W31 project car...it used to be a chicken coop and a doghouse!

Later Folks

==
"2 + 2 = 5 for sufficiently large values of 2"

John Pajak
Lexington Park, Maryland

Check out our Oldsmobiles and more at
http://members.tripod.com/~JSPajak
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:04:50, -0500
From: GQPR12E@prodigy.com ( CLAYTON PIERCE)
Subject: re: 85 Cutlass

>The best performance improvement?  I installed a 77 350.  GREAT
boost in
>power!!  I laid a 30 foot strip of rubber yesterday, I was
shocked!!
>Didn't dog it to do it.  Passing is a blast!  You can get to 80 in
no
>time!

I did the same thing but with a '74 350 and an '84 Cutlass... I agree
passing is a blast... but how you got it to lay a 30 ft. strip of
rubber without dogging it is beyond me... Unless I had a good hill
and a right turn I had to power-brake the car and floor it to get it
to leave rubber... and I had a 2.41:1 rear end!!!

>RPM.  With 205 75 14's, at 40 you are running 1100, 55 running 1500,
80
>is around 2200, at 100 around 2800, 120 comes in at 3300, 150 at
4100,
>180 at 5000.  2.14's are interesting gears.......Anyone for top
speed?
>Charley, are you there?

Yeah... the 2.41:1 rear end is just as much fun... did I ever tell
anyone on the list of the time that I beat a Viper top end?
Seriously!  His was just the run-of the mill model and his top speed
was only about 165 to 170... mine was 180 plus... I only did that
once... scared the sh*t out of me... steering got really really wierd
somewhere around 170 to 180... it's hard to even really keep the car
in a straight line... went to a 3.73:1 rear end after a while so that
I could be just as impressive and yet not get myself killed!  With
the lower rear-end (got lotsa jokes when I went to tell all my
friends... "Hey guy's... I finally did it... I got a lower rear end."
future note to phrase this differently) 0 to 60 was much better... an
honest 4 to 4 1/2 seconds with that built TH400 tranny... just didn't
have that way high top end anymore... burnout's were a breeze... lost
the motor though... let it get hot during a really bad storm (trying
to drive that monster with a foot and a half of snow on the ground...
stupid me...) this past winter.  Never did get to take it to the
track out here... kept saying I would... I really wonder what she
would have run the 1/4 in.

Peace, Goodwill, and Happy Oldsmobilling,
Clayton Pierce,
zcwp11@Access.ETSU.edu
the_rocketeer@rocketmail.com
GQPR12E@Prodigy.com

1984 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme (RIP) (350, 4bbl, TH400, 3.73:1, 80k
miles)
1980 Rover 3500 SD1 (215, V8, FI, 85k miles)
1965 Pontiac Bonneville Hardtop Coupe (389, 4bbl, TH400, 110k miles) -
Look ma' no EGR!!!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:07:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Subject: pepper/ overheating

Best radiator stop leak is damn near free in most restaurants.
Ground black pepper. Mark
===================
Great suggestion, Mark, NOT... I just poured a can of pepper into my
radiator... now it won't stop SNEEZING!!! :-)  Dang radiator spooge all over
me...
- -------


Note that if your overheating problems occur only at high speeds, the
problem is unlikely to be fan or fan clutch related.  On the freeway you
will have more than enough airflow without the fan.  Items besides blockage
which could be a cause are the aforementioned timing and an overly-lean
carb.
==================
I saw this problem a couple time's at Chuck's Garage last year. One must nos
ASSUME that highway speeds provide adequate airflow. Both times, the radiator
fins [external] were clogged with bugs, grit, etc. Spray with gnarly chemical,
hose off from backside AND front, repeat 1-2x, problem solved.
   Now, for MY car, last week, I replaced the thermostat. Tested the old one in
hot water- it opened fine. Slight leak justified replacing it anyhow, and the
cap was iffy so it got renewed. Problem solved. Which was it, the t'stat, cap,
or backing the timing back to 10 degrees from 12? Dunno, don't care, it's happy
now.

And to address another question, antifreeze does _not_ increase the boiling
point  of the coolant - it simply lowers the freezing point (as well as
=========
This is contrary to what I have been told. I thought pretty much ANYTHING added
to water would change both the freezing a boiling points, some one direction,
some the other.


introducing corrosion inhibitors).  It is the pressure in the system that
raises the boiling point (the boiling point of water increases with
pressure and decreased with reduced pressure; 212 degrees is the boiling
point at sea level, but this temperature goes down as you climb in
altitude, hence the need for high altitude directions on cake mixes).
That's why most radiator caps run 14-16 psi. Joe Padavano
================
I understood the pressure to be raising the boiling point *in addition to* the
presence of ethylene glycol.

Furthermore, I thought the EG addition benefits went much like freeze
protection:

None: baseline water numbers
Some: better that water alone [or pure EG]
Lots: Gets worse
100% EG: worse than 100% agua.

Pretty sure EG carries heat less efficiently than H2O, so one should use the
minimun required for antifreeze protection & boilover protection & rust
prevention. Especially rust prevention.

- --
Chris Witt  *the* Rocket Scientist
1968 442 convertible, originally & to be again W30, et. al
Lansing, MI :=: wittchri@pilot.msu.edu
- --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:14:12 EDT
From: <KS7RACING@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Igor's timing

Listmembers,

What I think you'll find is that aligning the timing marks in the one up/one
down position places you at the start of the engine cycle for #1 cylinder,
between exhaust and intake.  The coil fires between compression and power (or
in the vicinity of them).  I know over the years I've heard people have one
devil of a time trying to figure out why an engine wouldn't fire or run poorly
if it did, only to reinstall the distributor 180 degrees and have everything
work just fine.  We always 1) line up the timing marks one up/one down, 2)
rotate the crankshaft, looking for a) compression on #1 cylinder if the heads
are installed or b) that BOTH cam lobes are on the base or bottom end of the
lobes if the heads are off, then 3) put on the degree wheel and check for the
proper openings and closings of the valves in relation to the cam card.  After
the pre-oiling of the engine is done, we double-check to insure we're back on
#1 cylinder firing (finger in the plug trick and looking at timing mark) then
we install the distributor and roughly set the timing so we can fire it up.
We've never had an engine not pressurize the oiling system or fail to fire
right up using this method, and I'm sure others do it the same way we do so
I'm not giving any earth-shaking advice.

Take Care,
Ken Snyder
Kansas City, Kansas

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 19:20:49 -0600
From: Oldsmagnet <buehner@lyrea.com>
Subject: Re: pepper/ overheating

> And to address another question, antifreeze does _not_ increase the
> boiling point
> It is the pressure in the system that
> raises the boiling point

Actually it's a bit of both.  Water, under pressure, will boil at a higher
temperature.  Adding the coolant in there raises that temperature even more.
I've never heard any horror stories of running excess of 1:1, besides costs, 
but
I've always heard 1:1 is the best mix.  Ethylene Glycol also acts as a 
lubricant
for the water pump.  With straight water, you're increasing the wear on the
pump's seals and bearings, I guess.  I imagine it is a partial rust inhibitor,
also.  Not sure on the effectiveness there, though.
- --
Oldsmagnet - Charley Buehner @ Sidney Montana |\      |-------|
mailto:buehner@lyrea.com To mail direct to me |/\|=|  |   |   |
http://www.lyrea.com/~buehner See my homepage |\ |=|  |   |   |
   \ | / =========================== \ | /    |<||=|  |   |   |
    \|/  List Removal and Guidelines  \|/     |/ |=|  |  / \  |
     V   ===========================   V      |\/|=|  | / | \ |
  http://www.lyrea.com/~buehner/listfaq.htm   |/      |___|___|

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:21:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Subject: more 330 tips

The reason I asked was that block designation "1A" is NOT in the FAQ.
Listed are:

"1"     1964       330
"2"     1965       330
"2"     1968-70   350
"3"    (no date)   330
....
So, if "1A" was a 1966 block, what was "3"?
And were they both 330's?
=================
Yes, there were a few 330's. Remember, the FAQ was written by fallible humans.
With feeble memories, and less than total Olds experience in any one person.

To paraphrase, from Page 67 of the Mondello [Mond'o? ;-)  ] TRM:

330's come in the following flavors:

   Block   Yrs    CBA  LD
A  381917  64-67  45  .842
3  394417  64-67  39* .842
3  394417   67    39* .842
1  381917  66-67  45  .842
- ----------------------------
Please NOTE that in actual viewing, the typically larger [but not necessarily
so] ID listed above in the leftmost column, actually appears on one's RIGHT if
standing afront of the motor, facing it. That is, the single separate ID might
even be same size as the other 6 digits, rather belnding in, and is located
right next to the oil pressure hole.

E.g. looking at a #3 block, one might see:  "394417 3" where the last 3 may, or
may NOT be, larger than the other digits.
- ----------

*this claim that a 39-degree 330 block is the one that the RS takes exception
to, having never documented one. Typos do happen. Furthermore... to suggest
that any 39 degree block might have been used as early as 1964 I find highly
questionable. I dare not call Mond'o a liar, but let's just say it's been about
4 years now and STILL no proof that SMW 403's exist.

Maybe I go dig out my own personal '67 330 block & examine the CBA...
- --
Chris Witt  *the* Rocket Scientist
1968 442 convertible, originally & to be again W30, et. al
Lansing, MI :=: wittchri@pilot.msu.edu
- --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 18:55:29 -0700
From: Eric Spence <ericsp@mail.ocis.net>
Subject: Re: pepper/ overheating

Consumer Fact Sheet for Ethylene Glycol Antifreeze

What is Antifreeze?

Antifreeze, made up of mainly water and ethylene glycol, is added to radiator
water in motor vehicles. Ethylene glycol lowers the freezing point and raises
the boiling point of radiator fluid. In other words, it keeps the water from
freezing on very cold days or boiling over from engine heat. In addition, metal
components in today's hotter running automotive engines are better protected
from corrosion by the product. Auto maintenance experts recommend that the
majority of radiators should be flushed every 1-2 years. This presents a
question of what to do with the radiator fluid. Care must be taken to store new
antifreeze safely and also to dispose of used antifreeze properly.


Chris Brown Witt wrote:

> Best radiator stop leak is damn near free in most restaurants.
> Ground black pepper. Mark
>
> And to address another question, antifreeze does _not_ increase the boiling
> point  of the coolant - it simply lowers the freezing point (as well as
> =========
> This is contrary to what I have been told. I thought pretty much ANYTHING
added > to water would change both the freezing a boiling points, some one
direction, > some the other. > > I understood the pressure to be raising the
boiling point *in addition to* the > presence of ethylene glycol. >

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:53:18, -0500
From: GQPR12E@prodigy.com ( CLAYTON PIERCE)
Subject: RE: museum visit and storm tips

golfball sized my &#@, Greg, if your '72 is made anything like my '65.
.. and I know it is :) then golfball sized isn't gonna cause us any
problems... basketball sized maybe... Seriously, I was parked
recently here at work during a hail storm... while the '93 Toyota 4-
runner beside me was hit pretty hard, the '65 doesn't show any (new)
dents :)  There IS something to be said for being able to sleep... or
sit... or walk around on your hood without fear of damage too...

>Oh, BTW, has anyone considered lashing a couple of air matresses to
>the top of thier car when they hear a hail warning?......No,
seriously.  It
>might be worth some piece of mind when the local TV weatherdork
starts
>throwing around words like "golfball sized hail."  Just a thought
anyway.

>Greg Pruett
>72 Vista Cruiser
>67 Cutlass Surpeme
>80 Cutlass Calais


Peace, Goodwill, and Happy Oldsmobilling,
Clayton Pierce,
zcwp11@Access.ETSU.edu
the_rocketeer@rocketmail.com
GQPR12E@Prodigy.com

1984 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme (RIP) (350, 4bbl, TH400, 3.73:1, 80k
miles)
1980 Rover 3500 SD1 (215, FI, 85k miles)
1965 Pontiac Bonneville Hardtop Coupe (389, 4bbl, TH400, 110k miles)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 22:03:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Subject: moron the gold/chrome wheels

Shoot, I forgot the ransom [nice pun there!] aspect...

If no one buys the NOS gold & chrome wheels by Monday 8am, I am taking them to
Padnos as scrap steel. AFTER cutting them into quarters with the torch of
course. Same for the tri-carb intake setup.

shoot, I meant to *Friedland* metals, where they don't sell ANY car parts!

 --
Chris Witt  *the* Rocket Scientist
1968 442 convertible, originally & to be again W30, et. al
Lansing, MI :=: wittchri@pilot.msu.edu
- --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 22:03:54 EDT
From: <DYeager535@aol.com>
Subject: Re: pepper/ overheating

In a message dated 98-06-27 21:22:45 EDT, you write:

<<  With straight water, you're increasing the wear on the
 pump's seals and bearings, I guess. >>
Charley,
     I believe that the antifreeze actually INCREASES wear on the water pump
seals and bearings. I don't know if more or less so than just plain water, but
did you notice the new orange antifreeze? Required first for Saturn, and even
my sisters '96 P*ntiac uses it..no SILICA! I couldn't believe the green stuff
has silica in it. Thats one of the reasons they went to it. We all know sand
is abrasive, and I can imagine how much longer a water pump lasts now with no
sand running through it  : )...probably as long as the engine lasts! Dorian

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 22:06:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Subject: wtd: black 71 Cs/VC bench seat & r. seat

Friend wants a usable, not thrashed, black bench seat from a '71 or so Cutlass
or Vista. Also, the rear [middle?] seat from a VC of that vintage.

He's in northern lower MI, if youcan get it to Lansing I can get it to him.

Replies via private email only please, or phone.
This will be even  more critical after tomorrow.

- --
Chris Witt  *the* Rocket Scientist
1968 442 convertible, originally & to be again W30, et. al
Lansing, MI :=: wittchri@pilot.msu.edu
- --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:15:21 -0600
From: Oldsmagnet <buehner@lyrea.com>
Subject: Re: pepper/ overheating

>      I believe that the antifreeze actually INCREASES wear on the water pump
> seals and bearings.

> notice the new orange antifreeze? Required first for Saturn, and even
> my sisters '96 P*ntiac uses it..no SILICA!
> We all know sand is abrasive

On the other hand, ever dealt with one of Silica's ~other~ descendants,
silicone?  One of the better lubricants known to mankind?  Just a thought.
Tranny fluids have varying friction levels, too.  Look at that Trick Shift
stuff, or even Type F.  Lubricating, cooling, ~and~ friction additives.  Hmm.
Not sure how that relates to coolant.  I agree, though, that anything to
increase the lubricating properties of the engine coolant would be a better
step.  Anything's gotta be better than straight water, though...  (Analogy
certain to offend someone -- sorry) Don't believe me?  Ever had sex in a
bathtub?  I don't recommend it.....  ('Nuff of ~that~ subject :o )

- --
Oldsmagnet - Charley Buehner @ Sidney Montana |\      |-------|
mailto:buehner@lyrea.com To mail direct to me |/\|=|  |   |   |
http://www.lyrea.com/~buehner See my homepage |\ |=|  |   |   |
   \ | / =========================== \ | /    |<||=|  |   |   |
    \|/  List Removal and Guidelines  \|/     |/ |=|  |  / \  |
     V   ===========================   V      |\/|=|  | / | \ |
  http://www.lyrea.com/~buehner/listfaq.htm   |/      |___|___|

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 22:27:19 EDT
From: <DYeager535@aol.com>
Subject: Re: pepper/ overheating

Good point(s) Charley : ) Dorian

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 22:47:22 -0400
From: Capitol Search Group <capsrch1@erols.com>
Subject: Oldsmobile Performance for a 1986 Olds Custom Crusier

My wife has a pristine 1986 Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser and she will not
trade it for anything. She would like to have a great deal more power
than the 307 cid V-8 can give.  So far I have added a custom dual
exhaust, flipped the airbreather top to allow the 4 barrel carb to get
more air but it is still a sluggish performer.

My question is what earlier and much larger Oldsmobile V-8 will bolt on
to the existing 4 speed overdrive automatic transmission?  Will the
earlier 77-78 403 cid?  Is the 403 a good performer? If not will a 455
cid from an earlier model Olds fit  the 4 speed auto trans? I do not
know what to do!!

At 4,100 lbs we should be able to achieve some strong performance from a
big block Olds.

Your answer is very much appreciated.

Thank you

Joe & Christi Nemie

capsrch1@erols.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 23:04:31 -0400
From: "Jason P. Labay" <jlabay@ee.net>
Subject: 72 Cutlass front end rebuild advice

The front suspension on my 72 Cutlass Supreme seems to be totally shot.  What 
is
the best ~complete~ rebuild kit out there for the price? I see that PST has a
few rebuild kits.  I am looking to replace everything since it has over 180,000
miles on it.  I am looking to keep it cheap, I don't need gold plated ball
joints :-) Thanks.

Jason Labay (jlabay@ee.net)   Akron, OH
98 Silverado C2500.....Vortec 350, A4, 4.10
80 Olds 442 W-30........350, A3, 2.73
75 Hurst/Olds W-25.....350, A3, 2.56
72 Cutlass Supreme.....drag car project

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 23:31:42 -0300 (ADT)
From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: TH350 Rebuild Started!

On Sat, 27 Jun 1998 DYeager535@aol.com wrote:

> Greg, you revbuilt a 350 before,

My first. But I'm going to apprentice under my buddy Brian's eye, who has
done a few TH400s.

> and what year is the trans? Dorian

It's from a '72 Cutlass. I am really looking forward to the learning
experience. And especially to get the thing in the car (dreams of having a
real first gear!)

Greg Beaulieu    ab348@chebucto.ns.ca    Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 23:14:57, -0500
From: GQPR12E@prodigy.com ( CLAYTON PIERCE)
Subject: re: illegal racing "penalties"

Having lived in rural areas I can definitly attest to that... slow-
moving Ford pickups present quite the barrier... I've seen to many
wrecks around here from drag racing myself... the ONLY place I ever
raced anybody... including my little speed record that I wrote about
earlier... is on a STRAIGHT section of 4 lane divided highway in a
rural area with NO cross streets in an area without any farms!  Even
then I guess there are pretty serious hazards presented by the woods
and animals... but I wasn't thinking about that at the time...

>"Deserted" country roads may not be as they look.  They may have
slow
>moving equipment or someone out for a bike ride and the penalty you
pay for
>drag racing could be much higher than monetary.  Please keep the
racing at
>the drag strip.

>Jim's wife

>'53 "Black Beauty"
>'53 Bridges of Madison Co.

Clayton Pierce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 22:57:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: MAILER-DAEMON@merge1.mergetel.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown

The original message was received at Sat Jun 27 22:57:43 EDT 1998
from  oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca

- ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
lee@merge1

- ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to merge1.:
>>> RCPT To:<lee@merge1>
<<< 550 Bad recipient
550 lee@merge1... User unknown
Reporting-MTA: dns; merge1

Arrival-Date: Sat Jun 27 22:57:43 EDT 1998
Final-Recipient: RFC822; lee@merge1
Action: failed
Status: 5.1.1
Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 Bad recipient
Last-Attempt-Date: Sat Jun 27 22:57:43 EDT 1998
>From oldsmobile-mml-owner@chebucto.ns.ca  Sat Jun 27 22:57:40 1998
Return-Path: <oldsmobile-mml-owner@chebucto.ns.ca>
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<004c01bda241$7b05e600$2058bed1@default> From: "Jason P. Labay" 
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To: "Oldsmobile Mailing List" <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca> Subject: 72 Cutlass
front end rebuild advice Date: 	Sat, 27 Jun 1998 23:04:31 -0400 
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Small Fry X-SBRule: Pass-No Pattern Matching

The front suspension on my 72 Cutlass Supreme seems to be totally shot.  What 
is
the best ~complete~ rebuild kit out there for the price? I see that PST has a
few rebuild kits.  I am looking to replace everything since it has over 180,000
miles on it.  I am looking to keep it cheap, I don't need gold plated ball
joints :-) Thanks.

Jason Labay (jlabay@ee.net)   Akron, OH
98 Silverado C2500.....Vortec 350, A4, 4.10
80 Olds 442 W-30........350, A3, 2.73
75 Hurst/Olds W-25.....350, A3, 2.56
72 Cutlass Supreme.....drag car project

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:34:51 -0700
From: Rick <truric@imag.net>
Subject: rear disc(my two bits)

After 9 years in the brake business i got to say anyone who is thinking of
converting to rear disc brakes especially with a rear actuation caliper
...I got to tell you it's just not worth it there is absolutely nothing
wrong with rear drum that is kept well adjusted with a riveted shoe to
handle the heat
And if you don't belive me ask anyone with a W brake system (lumina, gran
prix,regal)that had to spend 500 dollars Canadian on the rears only and see
if they don't wish they had rear drum
well that my input on the subject :)
rick
1972 442

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 00:47:36 -0400
From: "Graham Stewart" <graham.stewart@utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: "BT" TH-400 in my olds!

>Anyone know what the "BT" code means for a th-400? Didn't find it in the
>faq.  I'm assuming I have a buick trans in my olds..
>Ken

Yes it's a Buick transmission.  BT was used with 425, 430 and 455 cid.
engines between 1965 and 1976. It looks like it was used with higher
performance/torque engines as it's listed with Rivieras, "high performance",
etc. in the books.  Below the 2 big letters the year should appear on the
black bar on the bottom of the ID plate.

Graham Stewart
Toronto, Canada
graham.stewart@utoronto.ca

74 Ninety-Eight
69 Delta 88 Convertible
66 Toronado
67 Bu*ck Wildcat

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 23:53:29 -0500
From: bloom@mail.gorilla.net
Subject: Re: A/C Diagnosis

At 10:07 PM 6/26/98 -0400, you wrote:

>Then, one winter nite my wife was driving it and using the defrost.  The
>compressor locked and smoked the belt- I'm guessing the thing froze up.  I
>disconnected the clutch wires and decided to give up on A/C- heck it's a
>convertible, after all.
  Did this year of Cutlass use the a/c to defrost? I didn't think so. I sus-
spect the wife accidently turned on the a/c.

 Not much in
>the way of cold at the evaporator.  What would you guys recommend for
>getting back to working right?  Thanks!
  If it were mine I would'nt think of converting to 134a unless you changed
the condenser size. I'd leave it with r12. Find a good a/c mech. and replace
all hoses and have the entire system checked for leaks. Also, put the bracket
you're missing back on, this car deserves it.
Fred K. (bloom@gorilla.net)
Tulsa,OK. area
'67 442
'67 Cutlass
		44   44  44   44  222222
		44   44  44   44   2  2
		4444444  4444444   2  2
		     44       44   2  2
		     44       44  222222
	

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #1335
*********************************
