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Subject:	oldsmobile-digest V1 #1336


oldsmobile-digest        Sunday, June 28 1998        Volume 01 : Number 1336



An "R" code tranny? was Re: "BT" TH-400 in my olds!
Re: more 330 tips
More on TH400 codes
Re: More on TH400 codes
Re: museum visit and storm tips
Re: An "R" code tranny? was Re: "BT" TH-400 in my olds!
Re: An "R" code tranny? was Re: "BT" TH-400 in my olds!
Chris & Karl's Block War was Re: J motor?!
Re: Gold & chrome 15x7 SSII's
Stop Including Trivial Files was Re: Dashpot Explanation
Re: An "R" code tranny? was Re: "BT" TH-400 in my olds!
Re: by the numbers book
Re: More on TH400 codes
Re: An "R" code tranny? was Re: "BT" TH-400 in my olds!
Re: An "R" code tranny? was Re: "BT" TH-400 in my olds!
Re: by the numbers book
Re: by the numbers book
lifter question, HELP
UNBOUNCE: '86 Custom Cruiser Engine Swap
Re: Me busted on bandwidth
Re: Tranny Rebuild... (long)
Re: TH350 Rebuild Started!
Re: Web Site
Re: UNBOUNCE: '86 Custom Cruiser Engine Swap
Re: Web Site
Re: by the numbers book
Ch*vy+Olds = I DON'T THINK SO!!!
Need paint/body man
IbDrButthead writes...
Looking for radio
Re: illegal racing "penalties"
Air conditioning
Adios
Re: Air conditioning
removing back seat
Re: Air conditioning
metro vs. soft seal?
Re: TH350 Rebuild Started!
Re: removing back seat
Olds online parts
65 Oldsmobile 98
Re: removing back seat
Re: illegal racing "penalties"
Re: Igor's timing
Re: removing back seat
Re: Ch*vy+Olds = I DON'T THINK SO!!!
Re: 65 Oldsmobile 98
Re: Air conditioning
RE: Stop Including Trivial Files was Re: Dashpot Explanation
Re: illegal racing "penalties" - Long!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 00:55:04 EDT
From: <KarlAune@aol.com>
Subject: An "R" code tranny? was Re: "BT" TH-400 in my olds!

In a message dated 98-06-27 20:18:01 EDT, you write:

<< The way I understand it, the first letter is the division. B for Buick,
obviously. The second letter, I have been told, tells the relative "strength"
if you will, of the trans. A being lightest duty, progressively stronger"
until..? Usually more clutches and steels. I, however, have a 400 with a code
that starts with some letter that isn't B,O,P, or even C. (can't remember what
exactly it is) Anyone know for sure the codes?   Dorian  >>

Dorian,
and Ken.

Yah. First letter is manufacturer. B=Buick O=Oldsmobile and . . . Dorian, is
yours an R-code?

  :-|)}

I will give you-all a moment to guess.

Meantime, the second letter.
This is kinda tricky. It is more like the second letter in the diff code.
Yes there is some difference in application with ONLY CERTAIN consecutive
letters indicating application in a RELATIVELY weaker or stronger motor. While
on the other hand, the next higher letter could well be weaker motor. Much as
for the 1965 diff codes (previously posted by some kind soul), the increasing
letter indicates increasing ratio WITHIN a body class. If the next higher
letter is in the next body style, the diff ratio starts out low again.

Having just swapped starters, I am to tired to look up the 1965 codes, but
here is what I remember;

OA-0001-65  ('zat right?)  425cid  2bbl hi-comp
OB-xxxx-65   425cid  4bbl   Super high comp
OC
OD   one of these two is a low-compression motor for export only
(I think)

In summary, if in doubt, look it up.

BTW If you cannot look it up, What the hell are you doing without a chassis
manual for your car??

Paging Chris Brown Witt!!
Pay attention!

Dorian..your "R" code (right??) :-)}  TH-400 is a variable-vane transmission
from....

Gratuitous drumroll............a 1966 or 1967........


Rolls Royce!

Dorian, take VERY good care of that tranny!

And if you have to sell it, please remember..

KA
&SOM

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:04:15 EDT
From: <KarlAune@aol.com>
Subject: Re: more 330 tips

In a message dated 98-06-27 21:23:42 EDT, you write:

<< To paraphrase, from Page 67 of the Mondello [Mond'o? ;-)  ] TRM:
 330's come in the following flavors:
    Block   Yrs    CBA  LD
 A  381917  64-67  45  .842
 3  394417  64-67  39* .842
 3  394417   67    39* .842
 1  381917  66-67  45  .842  >>

It's "Mondo"! A fruity drink in a recyclable container!    :-)}

Yup. Mondo waaaaay off on that one. At least he got the 45 degrees for the "A"
block. Too bad the code # is wrong.

The FAQ says "1" is 1964 only. So offhand, scratch that. (Please correct if I
err!)

"3" 1964-7. Not likely. Possibly either 1966-7 or 1967 only.
Do the "3" blocks have a 39 degree CBA.

Geez, WHO is his historian?

KA
&SOM

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:07:17 -0400
From: "Graham Stewart" <graham.stewart@utoronto.ca>
Subject: More on TH400 codes

Ken,
>       The way I understand it, the first letter is the division. B for
Buick,
>obviously. The second letter, I have been told, tells the relative
"strength"
>if you will, of the trans. A being lightest duty, progressively "stronger"
>until..? Usually more clutches and steels. I, however, have a 400 with a
code
>that starts with some letter that isn't B,O,P, or even C. (can't remember
what
>exactly it is) Anyone know for sure the codes?   Dorian

"How to work with and Modify the Turbo Hydramatic 400 Transmission" (an
excellent) gives a complete list of codes.  The breakdown is as follows:

B: Buick
A: Cadillac
C: Chevrolet
O: Oldsmobile
P: Pontiac

Also:
Chevrolet/GMC truck use C until 1980, then use mostly F until 1988

More exotic brands that came with Turbo 400s (knowing it was the best in the
business and/or couldn't manage to make a decent transmission themselves):

MA: 84-88 AM General 4WD Military Truck
FV: 1981-82 Avanti with 350 V-8; Excalibur (?)
N: 1973-82 Checker
FE, FG: 1977-80 Ferrari (V-12)
E: 1971-78 Holden (never heard of this ... anyone?)
Z: 1976-88 Jaguar
K and J: 1965-79 Jeep
EA: 1969-76 Opel Diplomat
RV: Revcon Motor Home
R: 1966-88 Rolls Royce
ET, EV: 1977-88 Volvo Truck

So ... next time you see a Rolls taking up space in your local junkyard, rip
it apart to get at the valuable Turbo400.  Your Olds will thank you ;)

Graham Stewart
Toronto, Canada
graham.stewart@utoronto.ca

74 Ninety-Eight
69 Delta 88 Convertible
66 Toronado
67 Bu*ck Wildcat

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:19:43 EDT
From: <KarlAune@aol.com>
Subject: Re: More on TH400 codes

In a message dated 98-06-28 01:12:39 EDT, you write:

<< N: 1973-82 Checker >>

Whoa!

So some if not *all* Checker Cabs (means that cheezy body that is reminiscent
of late 50's, right) of these years gots TH400????

Do you have info on whether these are short-tail or full-length.

And, knew about TH400 book, got lotsa Illustrations??

Thanks

KA
&SOM

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:34:40 EDT
From: <KarlAune@aol.com>
Subject: Re: museum visit and storm tips

In a message dated 98-06-27 21:55:52 EDT, you write:

<< . Seriously, I was parked  recently here at work during a hail storm...
while the '93 Toyota 4-
 runner beside me was hit pretty hard, the '65 doesn't show any (new)  dents
:)  There IS something to be said for being able to sleep... or  sit... or
walk around on your hood without fear of damage too... >>

Hi Clayton!

Goin to da Nats?

Had to mention. Toured an assembly plant during Centennial. There was a small
showcase area with maybe three or four polished-up cars. A sign on the wall
said not to lean on the vehicles. One of those cutie-pie ones with a semi-
cartoon (which did not illustrate bad after-affects). Someone in the group
asked if the hoods would dent if same happened. Answer given by tour guide was
no!
(Yah. Right.)

But then they were also quick to point out that although it was wrapped in
synthetic resins for impact absorption, that the bumpers of modern Oldsmobiles
had a metal core. That of course rendered null and void the claim "I will
never drive a car with a plastic bumper." Or at least that is what the tour
guides said.

As far as that goes..new car owners beware! Do not lean on your car. If it
buckles, but springs back to "normal" shape, the metal is still being
stressed, and is prone to RUST in points where it has been stressed. Just like
nicks, gouges, and rips! (only slightly less so!)

Folks, protect your post 1970 cars from hail!

KA
&SOM

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:38:27 EDT
From: <DYeager535@aol.com>
Subject: Re: An "R" code tranny? was Re: "BT" TH-400 in my olds!

In a message dated 98-06-28 00:58:23 EDT, you write:

<< Dorian..your "R" code (right??) :-)}  TH-400 is a variable-vane
transmission
 from.... >>


Actually, it's first 4 in the code are 74  AA : )  Tell me what THAT means! I
would love to know..wondered that when I rebuilt it...figured it should have
been a 74 B, O, or P. I can't belive I'm looking at the wrong thing. Metal tag
on the passenger side, right. Anyway, any answers? Dorian

And no, since my '86 Salon with 403 NEEDS it, I'm not going to sell it : )

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:40:53 EDT
From: <DYeager535@aol.com>
Subject: Re: An "R" code tranny? was Re: "BT" TH-400 in my olds!

Nevermind..later post answered..it is a Cadillac trans...so what about the
second A? Can't remember the clutch count...Dorian

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:48:51 EDT
From: <KarlAune@aol.com>
Subject: Chris & Karl's Block War was Re: J motor?!

In a recent battle, Chris and I fenced;

<<  OTOH, the "W" intake that went with the "J" block and "J" heads will not
(I think) flow as well as your car's original intake did. And the Performer
will flow air best of the three.
 -------------
 [[ Wow, there's a J casting motor now?!!! What is it, a 456? ]]



OK, Yah, Karl likely wrong here. (Still remember it as "J").

Firstly it was in a yard. Saw it once about a year ago.

Secondly it was covered with EGR crap.
I cannot truly express how much fun it was to rip away all of the infernal
components.

Thirdly I was in a hurry. I prolly paid more attention to the "J" heads.

Fourthly the car was up on four dual rims.
That made dead-lifting the manifold REALLY fun.

Car was a 1976 Delta 88.
Yeah, it could have been a ...well the FAQ says "L" with a small "7" in the
middle of the casting number, but I do not remember that at all.

So what you are saying, is that not only was there no "C" block, but no "J"
block, huh?

Much in the same way that there was no "H" block.
[And what a power plant THAT would have been!]

KA
&SOM

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:48:52 EDT
From: <KarlAune@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Gold & chrome 15x7 SSII's

In a message dated 98-06-27 11:35:59 EDT, you write:

<< Four NOS absolutely untouched gold & chrome SSII wheels. Yours for only
$1M.  >>


Uhhhhh Chris.

Yeah, they look cool and all......
 (I probably owe you $2.50 for 30 seconds viewing time)

But....

I didn't say anything at the time because you would only hint.....

So I did not wish to draw Dave's attention.

But...it will be easier to unload those for the full $1 Gazillion....

If you remove the price for the set which was written (in white-out or some
such) on the second rim up from bottom of the stack by previous seller.  8-O}

As for the cost to you....My name is Joe, and I dunno.
(that is my story and I am stickng to it!)

KA
&SOM

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:48:53 EDT
From: <KarlAune@aol.com>
Subject: Stop Including Trivial Files was Re: Dashpot Explanation

In a message dated 98-06-27 14:10:38 EDT, you write:

<<  File:  Unknown.bin (1755 bytes) DL Time (28800 bps): < 1 minute

  Can anyone take a small time (or directed to) to explain me which is the
function and how a dashpot carb works? Thanks in advance, Raul 1966 Delta 88
>>

OK.

Karl gots a gripe.

Please stop including those (what are they anyway? buisiness cards?) files
with your submission.

If you must send info about yourself, place it in your footer ONE time per
day.

Anyone who needs to know who/where you are can find you quickly enough by
consulting you privately.

Meantime my download folder has eight different "Unknown" files of less than
2K that appear as meaningless code when I try to open them.

It is tough enough to root through all of the Oldsmobile mail without making a
special trip to my download folder to delete outright all of the crap!

And now for something completely different: Olds content.

I got some GOOD pics of my diff code stamping with a digital camera on my last
day with my former client.

But I forgot the disk there.
These will promptly be posted when I have occasion to back there.
(New job is in completely opposite direction    :-(    )

KA
&SOM

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:46:31 EDT
From: <KarlAune@aol.com>
Subject: Re: An "R" code tranny? was Re: "BT" TH-400 in my olds!

In a message dated 98-06-28 01:41:43 EDT, you write:

<<  Actually, it's first 4 in the code are 74  AA : )   >>

74 do not know, but Cadilac did use "AA" codes.

KA
&SOM

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:48:54 EDT
From: <KarlAune@aol.com>
Subject: Re: by the numbers book

In a message dated 98-06-27 13:51:59 EDT, you write:

<< Once we start adding Toro intakes, we'll need to add the
 numbers for other Toro components.  Then 88's, 98's, Starfires, 425's etc.
Plus
 we don't want readers identifying engines based on intake number alone.

 Good point, soon it'd be "Every Olds number ever known" and would be 3'
thick. >>


Like the FAQ?

My copy is a version or so old, but still 1.5" and growing!

KA
&SOM

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 02:04:24 -0400
From: "Graham Stewart" <graham.stewart@utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: More on TH400 codes

<< N: 1973-82 Checker >>
>
>So some if not *all* Checker Cabs (means that cheezy body that is
reminiscent
>of late 50's, right) of these years gots TH400????


That's right (did Travis Bickle have a TH400?): details:

NA: 1973-1980 250  L6
NB: 1973-1979 350 V-8, 1978-1982 305 V-8
NC: 1980-1982 231 V6
ND: 1980-1982 350 V-8 Diesel

>Do you have info on whether these are short-tail or full-length.


No the book merely gives a chart.  However, since those engine descriptions
sound quite familiar, I'd guess they also used GM engines during this
period.  (Does anyone know for sure about this?)  If so, they probably used
the TH375 version of the TH400.  Does that answer your question?

>>And, knew about TH400 book, got lotsa Illustrations??


I'd highly recommend the book.  Lots of illustrations, details on
diagnostics, maintenance, step by step rebuild, custom modifications. etc.
Have I done any of it? No, but that's another story ...

Graham Stewart
Toronto, Canada
graham.stewart@utoronto.ca

74 Ninety-Eight
69 Delta 88 Convertible
66 Toronado
67 Bu*ck Wildcat

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 02:09:31 -0400
From: "Graham Stewart" <graham.stewart@utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: An "R" code tranny? was Re: "BT" TH-400 in my olds!

>Nevermind..later post answered..it is a Cadillac trans...so what about the
>second A? Can't remember the clutch count...Dorian

Not sure about clutches, but your make of trans (74 AA) was used in all 1974
Cadillacs (except Eldorado, of course).  I wouldn't worry about its not
being heavy duty, however since it was sitting behind that 500 c.i.d.
monster!

Graham Stewart
Toronto, Canada
graham.stewart@utoronto.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 02:21:59 EDT
From: <DYeager535@aol.com>
Subject: Re: An "R" code tranny? was Re: "BT" TH-400 in my olds!

thanks Graham!  Dorian

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 00:47:42 PDT
From: "Chris Rivier" <crivier@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: by the numbers book

One could compile it all onto a FAQ CD's and make it available to
members for the magic number of $19.95 .


Just my $.02,

Chris Rivier
'66 Delta 88..."The Beast"
'88 Festiva..."Zippy"  162K+@ 40 mpg, neeed I say more.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 00:56:28 PDT
From: "Chris Rivier" <crivier@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: by the numbers book

 Once we start adding Toro intakes, we'll need to add the
 numbers for other Toro components.  Then 88's, 98's, Starfires, 425's
etc.  Plus  we don't want readers identifying engines based on intake
number alone.

Good point, soon it'd be "Every Olds number ever known" and would be 3'
thick.

Like the FAQ?  My copy is a version or so old, but still 1.5" and
growing!

KA&SOM
***************************************************************************

I have been informed that a cd could hold 650 megabytes I am pretty sure
that's a lot thinner than 1.5" or 3'.

I can maybe look into burning CD's for ya.  I would have to find out in
what form to compile it, maybe in html format.  This way one could read
it with their browser.

Feedback?,

Chris Rivier
'66 Delta 88..."The Beast"
'88 Festiva..."Zippy"  162K+@ 40 mpg, neeed I say more.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 04:13:14 -0600
From: "Igor" <todorovb@cadvision.com>
Subject: lifter question, HELP

I have installed my rockers and torqued them down to specs but have noticed
that I can still move most of them (move freeley).  The inside of the
lifter seems to be easily pushed it.  The only rockers I cant move are the
ones whose valves are open.  Are lifters supposed to go in like this.  The
only thing I did that the book does not say is lube the little bracket that
holds them in place with grease.  Figure since the lifters move agains
those brakets, they should be greesed.  Is everything okay or did I do
something wrong.  Just can't wait to get this motor done and fire it up.
The motor is 455.  Thanks a lot.  Igor.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 08:05:17 -0300 (ADT)
From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Subject: UNBOUNCE: '86 Custom Cruiser Engine Swap

Not on the list, respond to capsrch1@erols.com if you have any insight.
This sounds like a job for Mike Hall... :)

Greg Beaulieu    ab348@chebucto.ns.ca    Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:	Capitol Search Group <capsrch1@erols.com>
Subject: Oldsmobile Performance for a 1986 Olds Custom Crusier

My wife has a pristine 1986 Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser and she will not
trade it for anything. She would like to have a great deal more power
than the 307 cid V-8 can give.  So far I have added a custom dual
exhaust, flipped the airbreather top to allow the 4 barrel carb to get
more air but it is still a sluggish performer.

My question is what earlier and much larger Oldsmobile V-8 will bolt on
to the existing 4 speed overdrive automatic transmission?  Will the
earlier 77-78 403 cid?  Is the 403 a good performer? If not will a 455
cid from an earlier model Olds fit  the 4 speed auto trans? I do not
know what to do!!

At 4,100 lbs we should be able to achieve some strong performance from a
big block Olds.

Your answer is very much appreciated.

Thank you

Joe & Christi Nemie

capsrch1@erols.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 08:52:29 -0400
From: "Angel Castrodad" <angleki@prtc.net>
Subject: Re: Me busted on bandwidth

	I want to take up some bandwidth to apologize for posting a reply with 
the
whole original message after barking at someone for wasting bandwidth. I
just made the mistake of (apparently) hitting "select all" instead of "copy"
a part of the text and then pasting it on my reply. I humbly appologize for
this mistake, especially to the guys in Digest mode. I used to be in Digest
and remember getting steamed up with usless post and to Chris, thank you for
putting my boo-boo under the magnifing glass with you usual blunt style.
You've made me see the error in my ways.

Thanks again and sorry all!!

Angel Castrodad
angleki@prtc.net

86'442--->> 307/5A/TH-350/3.73

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 09:47:32 EDT
From: <Dudeman864@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Tranny Rebuild... (long)

your th-200 to th-350 swap will cost you the price of the 350 and the $2.00 or
so for the "Fitz-All" TV cable end repair kit. this kit should be available at
your local tranny parts house. it is a 3" cable end and a piece of heat shrink
tubing.  just measure and cut the tranny end off your 200 cable, slip the new
end on and heat the tubing with a lighter to seal the join.  the trannys are
the same length, so the drive shaft needn't be resized, and the linkage will
line up (though it may require some adjustment).
  I am a tranny installer, and i've done dozens of theese swaps.

good luck

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 10:00:16 EDT
From: <Dudeman864@aol.com>
Subject: Re: TH350 Rebuild Started!

In a message dated 98-06-27 20:22:23 EDT, you write:

<<
 1) This one has a switch on the case that looks just like an oil pressure
 sending unit. I assume it's for the transmission controlled spark feature
 which I'm not going to use of course. I removed it because it was looking
 pretty questionable. Are these things threaded with a taper or will a
 pipe plug seal the hole? >>

this switch is found on many early TH-350's, and is all but useless exept as
sometrhing else to leak.  the hole is 1/8 pipe thread, and the drain plug from
a ford torque converter fits perfectly

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 10:03:04 -0400
From: Kurt Heinrich <old442@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Web Site

Hey Greg,
If you don't mind, I'd really like to get a copy of your catalog.
Please send it to:

Kurt Heinrich
6717 Killdeer Ct
Frederick, MD  21703

Thanks

- --
Kurt Heinrich  (mailto:old442@erols.com)
71 442         (see it at http://www.442.com/heinrich.html)
OCA# 30442

*****************************************************
* visit my home page at http://www.erols.com/old442 *
*****************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 10:11:48 EDT
From: <Dudeman864@aol.com>
Subject: Re: UNBOUNCE: '86 Custom Cruiser Engine Swap

one of thew wonderful things about GM is that all v-8's (and quite a few
v-6's) have the same bolt pattern for the tranny bell housing. (chevys are
different, but all buick/olds/pontiac/caddy are the same.) you didn't say
which O\D tranny you have, if it's the 200-R4, I don't recomend a big block,
but if it's the 700-4R (large rectangular pan), go 4 it

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 10:21:54 -0400
From: Kurt Heinrich <old442@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Web Site

Sorry folks, I guess I'm now also guilty of the dreaded "premature
send".

Kurt Heinrich wrote:
>
> Hey Greg,
> If you don't mind, I'd really like to get a copy of your catalog.
> Please send it to:

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 11:08:42 +0100
From: Matt Cremean <ccremean@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu>
Subject: Re: by the numbers book

Chris Rivier wrote:
>
>
> I have been informed that a cd could hold 650 megabytes I am pretty sure
> that's a lot thinner than 1.5" or 3'.
>
> I can maybe look into burning CD's for ya.  I would have to find out in
> what form to compile it, maybe in html format.  This way one could read
> it with their browser.
>
> Feedback?,

Yeah, you guys should have thought of this a month ago when I had my
Friend's CD-R. Though, let me tell you, unless you came up with every
itty-bitty detail, number, etc. about Oldses, there wouldn't even be a
chance that we could fill that whole 650M of space.

- --
*************
Matt Cremean
mailto:ccremean@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
         777777 33333
            77      33
Cutlass    77    3333   Supreme
          77        33
         77     33333
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/3973/
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 11:21:35 +0100
From: Matt Cremean <ccremean@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu>
Subject: Ch*vy+Olds = I DON'T THINK SO!!!

I met a man and his wife at Frosty Boy last night. Just as I pulled up,
I parked right next to them sitting in a freshly restored 1968 442
Convert. It looked nice! It was a light faded yellow, had SSI's,
redlines, cutouts with trumpets, and some nice interior. I talked to
this guy, told him I loved his car and was the biggest Olds fan he'd
find around these parts. He said his '60 V*tte was better! Uh-huh, yeah
right! He was a really nice guy, but he gave me this load:

If you take a 400 SBC crank and do such and such and put it in a Rocket
350 you can make a 383 Olds/Ch*v stroker.

I told him politely that I had never head of such bullsh*t. Everyone
knows Sh*tvy and Oldsmadia parts don't mix!

After that, I told him that I didn't want to keep them, and they left as
I drooled once more over the nice sound she made as it drove off....

Still FURIOUS about that little 383 comment though!!!
- --
*************
Matt Cremean
mailto:ccremean@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
         777777 33333
            77      33
Cutlass    77    3333   Supreme
          77        33
         77     33333
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/3973/
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:57:04 GMT
From: krzy4evr@usit.net
Subject: Need paint/body man

Another unique message forwarded from usenet................
______________________________________________________________________________

On Sun, 28 Jun 1998 10:13:39 -0500, in alt.auto.parts.wanted
cwillocks@mindspring.com (Cynthia) wrote:

>I have a 1969 Cutlass Convertible in need of body work and paint. It will
>be a complete color change paint job (from turd brown to Sebring (or other
>bright, bright yellow) The body has very little rust through (behind the
>front wheel wells), but plenty of surface rust and only a couple of small
>dents. The paint will have to be stripped to metal because of cracking of
>previous layers.
>I don't have much money but can offer goods and services including, but
>certainly not limited to: All types of desktop publishing, custom
>artworks, business forms, letterheads, & envelopes,  business cards,
>custom logo design, advertising specialty items (tshirts, caps, jackets,
>pens, pencils etc (lots more), any type of printed item, web page/site
>design, coding, hosting and maintenance.
>I also have a few guns, including a Ruger Security Six 357 Magnum, A
>Stevens 12 ga. pump shotgun, a Winchester 12 ga., a 1992 model (never
>played)  Epiphone Rock Bass guitar (black),  a 1980 Ford F-100 pickup
>(ugly and runs strong but needs some work), a 1977 Cutlass Supreme 4dr,
>(runs good, clean, trans is whining. ) and a set of High Performance Chevy
>Small Block V-8 Parts - entire lot includes Set of Erson Valves-1.6 &
>2.02, 3/8Guide plates, Mallory Unilite Distributor, Promaster Coil, Erson
>tall Chrome Valve covers with Gasket set, 8 Tall Chrome T-Bar Wingnuts,
>Chrome
>Crankcase breather cap with grommet, PVC Grommet, Cam Kit tappets,
>springs, retainers, etc),  Erson HiFlow Camshaft, 3/8 rocker arms (1.5
>ratio), 3/8 screw in studs, 3/8 Posi-Lock nuts. All items new and still in
>boxes with 5 years warranty from Super Shops. Have receipts totalling
>$1002.  for entire lot. I also have a Quadrajet Carburetor 44bbl (needs
>rebuilding) and a Plymouth ThermoQuad 4BBL Carburetor.
>
>If interested in discussing any of this, please email me and I will
>forward my telephone number.
>
>--
>Cynthia
>Nashville TN      cwillocks@mindspring.com
>_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_
/_/_/_/ >

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 11:59:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Subject: IbDrButthead writes...

Forwarded message:
> From IBDrOlds@aol.com Sun Jun 28 03:46:24 1998
> From: IBDrOlds@aol.com
>
> Chris,
>
> Guess what I just sold another set of hood/fender moldings for $500 and the
> guy never even questioned the price, he just sent me a money order. So after
> selling 4 sets now apparently my price isn't that exhorbitant. Only 2 more
> sets and I will be able to pay for my 4th 69 442 convt solely with the sale 
of
> chrome pieces (my third Calif rustfree matching numbers example). My ROI
> (return on investment) approximates that of the NYSE rise over the past 10-15
> years, otherwise i would invest my money elsewhere where the return is more.
>
> One more point, at least i had the courtesy to put the price in the ad so 
that
> people know what the price is w/o making a long distance call.

Ah, so it's purely an investment scheme. That explains a lot. The stupid rich
have until Monday 8am to save/purchase my wheels, so I can buy a few "CA
rustfree" 69 convertible H/O's!
- --
Chris Witt  *the* Rocket Scientist
1968 442 convertible, originally & to be again W30, et. al
Lansing, MI :=: wittchri@pilot.msu.edu
- --

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 12:34:40 -0400
From: MARCLAV <MARCLAV@concentric.net>
Subject: Looking for radio

Looking for an AM/FM w/8-track for 1969 442.
O.K. w/o 8-track but preferred.
no junk please.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 09:40:26 -0700
From: Eric Spence <ericsp@mail.ocis.net>
Subject: Re: illegal racing "penalties"

Lets face it. Racing on pulic roads in like drinking & driving. STUPID!

CLAYTON PIERCE wrote:

> Having lived in rural areas I can definitly attest to that... slow-
> moving Ford pickups present quite the barrier... I've seen to many
> wrecks around here from drag racing myself... the ONLY place I ever
> raced anybody... including my little speed record that I wrote about
> earlier... is on a STRAIGHT section of 4 lane divided highway in a
> rural area with NO cross streets in an area without any farms!  Even
> then I guess there are pretty serious hazards presented by the woods
> and animals... but I wasn't thinking about that at the time...
>
> >"Deserted" country roads may not be as they look.  They may have
> slow
> >moving equipment or someone out for a bike ride and the penalty you
> pay for
> >drag racing could be much higher than monetary.  Please keep the
> racing at
> >the drag strip.
>
> >Jim's wife
>
> >'53 "Black Beauty"
> >'53 Bridges of Madison Co.
>
> Clayton Pierce

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 09:40:14 -0700
From: Eric Spence <ericsp@mail.ocis.net>
Subject: Air conditioning

In BC Canada, if the air conditioning has lost it's charge, we have to
convert it.  About $350.00 plus tax!  Lets play "What if".  What if a
person happended to be in the US in a stae such as Washington State,
would this person be able to get the system recharged or does it have to
be convered there as well?  Idaho?  Oregon?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 12:46:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Subject: Adios

Gotta run, it's been fun.
Don't let the likes of IBDrButthead get ya down.

When I come back it had better not be a list of 1% signal to noise with every
other post being how to get more hp out of the SBChevy motors that SOME Olds'
got stiffed with. Keep it Olds, Keep it pertinent. Call on the carpet anyone
who claims to make 487 HP from a 307. Send anyone with PROOF that the SMW 403
exists right to me.

You know where to find me.
Signing off to take care of life & work on my car now that it's out & about...

Se ya a Woodward this year, in my car!
- --
Chris Witt  *the* Rocket Scientist
1303 W. Miller Rd.
Lansing, MI 48911

517.882.9747

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 10:17:23 -0700
From: Rick <truric@imag.net>
Subject: Re: Air conditioning

At 09:40 AM 6/28/98 -0700, you wrote:
>In BC Canada, if the air conditioning has lost it's charge, we have to
>convert it.  About $350.00 plus tax!  Lets play "What if".  What if a
>person happended to be in the US in a stae such as Washington State,
>would this person be able to get the system recharged or does it have to
>be convered there as well?  Idaho?  Oregon?
>


Well as far as i know they don't require the r14a retrofit in order to
charge your air ...they just don't care ..i belive you can also go to
Alberta or Saharan they don't care either
rick
1972 442

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:30:29 EDT
From: <MARKSJ@aol.com>
Subject: removing back seat

Fellow Olds Enthusiasts,
I am reupholstering the seats in my 71 cutlass supreme convertible.  I was
able to figure out how the back seat bottom comes out, but not the back.  Can
any member please share any advise.
TIA...
Joel Marks
71 Olds CS Convert.
81 Olds CS Brougham
Burlington, Canada

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:31:15 +0000
From: krzy4evr@usit.net
Subject: Re: Air conditioning

Bring your car on down to Virginia...!! Just this weekend , I have
found many A/C shops that will still recharge with the old faithful
R-12...!! I'm getting my 442 and my '71 Monte charged tomorrow..!!!

Mike
'86 Supreme
'86 442
'71 Monte
__________________________________________________________________
> At 09:40 AM 6/28/98 -0700, you wrote:
> >In BC Canada, if the air conditioning has lost it's charge, we have to
> >convert it.  About $350.00 plus tax!  Lets play "What if".  What if a
> >person happended to be in the US in a stae such as Washington State,
> >would this person be able to get the system recharged or does it have to
> >be convered there as well?  Idaho?  Oregon?
> >
>
>
> Well as far as i know they don't require the r14a retrofit in order to
> charge your air ...they just don't care ..i belive you can also go to
> Alberta or Saharan they don't care either
> rick
> 1972 442
>
>
>
>
 "The best way to predict the future is to create it...."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:37:01 EDT
From: <W30442CS@aol.com>
Subject: metro vs. soft seal?

just wondering which was better weather stripping, and thought who better to
ask than the list?  am looking to re-do mine asap and would like to hear your
opinions/comments.  w30442cs@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:32:32 -0300 (ADT)
From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: TH350 Rebuild Started!

Good timing today... was at a swap meet and picked up a Hurst "Hot Shift"
shift kit for the TH350... $20. Good to know about the TCS switch size
too, thanks! All the tranny discussion here is very timely.

Greg Beaulieu    ab348@chebucto.ns.ca    Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:37:54 -0300 (ADT)
From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: removing back seat

On Sun, 28 Jun 1998 MARKSJ@aol.com wrote:
> I am reupholstering the seats in my 71 cutlass supreme convertible.  I was
> able to figure out how the back seat bottom comes out, but not the back.

Seems to me that when we pulled the seats out of the junker '72 convert,
there were 2 bolts down at the botton of the back cushion. There *might*
have been a couple under the top well near to the top rear of the seat
too, though my memory is fuzzy. I do recall it wasn't hard to get it out.

Greg Beaulieu    ab348@chebucto.ns.ca    Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:42:26 EDT
From: <DYeager535@aol.com>
Subject: Olds online parts

Anyone have any leads for a good online catalog of Oldsmobile engine parts?
Specifically for the 403? Summit may have them, but doesn't list them..I want
a good idea of what all is out there. Thanks, Dorian

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 10:48:06 -0700 (MST)
From: angst@primenet.com (Dustin Robinette)
Subject: 65 Oldsmobile 98

Interested in finding out if my one owner 1965 Olds 98 4 door has any value.
If so, then how much?? Also, how many were built that year and how many are
still in existence today.  Any information is very much appreciated. Thanks!!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:29:18 -0400
From: "Gregory Zimmerman" <zimmermangm@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: removing back seat

Remove the two bolts at the bottom, then it just lifts right off.

- -greg

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:28:38 -0400
From: Don Sowers <dstaxpro@lex.infi.net>
Subject: Re: illegal racing "penalties"

CLAYTON PIERCE wrote:
>
> Having lived in rural areas I can definitly attest to that...

> then I guess there are pretty serious hazards presented by the woods
> and animals... but I wasn't thinking about that at the time...

FWIW, and I know that isn't much to people that are going to do what
they want anyway, back in my high school days about 30 years or so ago
(yeah, I know I'm old) three of the schools stud-lies decided to do the
country road thing and drag race on a 'deserted country road'.  One was
an all-conference football player and the other two were starters on the
local high school team.  At the conclusion of the 'race'they had to call
out the police, fire department, ambulance and coroner's vehicle.  The
better of the two basketball players was killed, the other received
several injuries from which he later recovered, and the all-conference
footballer was injured enough than upon recovery he was no where close
to the same ability-wise after the incident.  The high school was in a
funk for a good while as all three were pretty popular for reasons other
than athleticism.  The survivors felt guilty they had made it and their
friend did not, and the dead guy, well he just felt dead I guess.  The
real crazy thing about this was there was a NHRA dragstip about three
miles from where the wreck happened that was less than five years old.
What do I think anout street racing?  It's a good way to commit
suicide/murder.  Take it to the strip and spend the $10 or so and have
some back up if the loser turns out to be a little unable to handle it.
Besides, the strips are built for it, the streets and highways aren't.
Besides, if something bad does happen, all the needed and vital services
area readily available.

I now return you to your regularily scheduled program.  Flame retardant
suit on and fire extinguishers at the ready.......

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:44:32 -0600
From: "Igor" <todorovb@cadvision.com>
Subject: Re: Igor's timing

The gears are together right on when they are opposite of each other.  When
I was installing, I did it very carefully, checked three times and they are
good.  Thanks a lot for explaining where firing positions are. Igor.

- ----------
> From: Chris Brown Witt <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
> To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca; me from myself <wittchri@pilot>
> Subject: Igor's timing
> Date: Saturday, June 27, 1998 10:00 AM
>
> From: "Igor" <todorovb@cadvision.com>
> Subject: Cam install question, -urgent
>
> OKAY, I have installed my cam and timing gears.  The way I installed it
is
> with the #1 piston all the way up in the bore and the mark on the crank
> gear is at the top (12'o clock) and the cam gear mark is also at the top
> (12 'o clock).  But when I rotate the crank 180deg.  the marks come
oposite
> of each other (crank at top and cam at bottom).  Which one would be the
> compression and which the fire stroke.  I don't know what these are
> anyways.  What is my TDC and my BDC and when do they occur (in terms of
> timing marks).  Other then putting the #1 piston at the top, I paid no
> attention to the position of the crank.  The chain is a true DBL roller
> timing.  Did I install it right.  What should i leave it at (timing marks
> both up or cam down/crank up) for the distributor install.  How do I make
> sure that the distributor is in right (ie the motor will start).  If you
> just dip the pistons in correct bores (notch forward of course) and make
> sure every piston is in the bor it belongs in, can you install the
pistons
> wrong.  I don't see how.  Also, if I lined up the cam gear dot with the
> crank gear dot, both straight up on top, can the cam be in wrong (the
chain
> I mean).  Again, I don't think so.  Did I do everything right.  Please,
it
> is my FIRST engine and all the money I saved this year, so I don't want
> anything to be wrong.  Thanks.  The engine is a 455.
> ---
> The Haynes manual said that on Chevrolet and Oldsmobile engines the
timing
> marks should both be installed pointing up.  I kind of thought that the
cam
> gear should be down, but the book says it three times.  BOTH UP.
> ---
> Yup.
> Timing marks should be pointing towards each other exactly!
> Crank up, cam down.
> ---
> OKAY, but since tha cam and chain are already in, I think that if I just
> turn the crank 180deg., the marks will come to face each other (crank
> up/cam down).  Can't I just do that and then install the distributor that
> way. If I pop the chain and gears off, and then put them back on
'properly'
> they will sit the same way as they do now with the crank turned 180.  So
> can I just turn the crank 180 deg. till the marks face each other, then
> install distributor with the rotor on #1 post of the cap.  Thanks.
> =======================\\\
>
> *sighs*
> Put them together with dots toward each other so it's easy to see whether
they
> are correct.
>
> That is #6 firing position.
>
> Turn crank 1 turn, so both dots are now UP at 12:00, that's #1 firing
position.
> Yes, cam goes 1/2 turn for every 1 turn of the crank. Funny how that
works,
> must be something to do with the 18 teeth on the crank gear & 36 on the
cam
> gear. And, yes, I know they are not "gears" as such.... Liberties....
>
> TRICK OF THE DAY: [Genuine Old Racer's Trick]
> with engine at #1 firing position, stuck your paint pen [you *do* have
one,
> right!? get one if not!] into the dist'r hole and MARK THE CAM GEAR. Any
little
> dab will do.
>
> Later, after you've turned the motor about 37 times installing the tork
> converter, etc. and then you want to install the dist'r... all you need
do is
> line up the timing marks, peer down into the dist'r hole... see paint: #1
> firing; no paint- #6 firing position.
> --
> Chris Witt  *the* Rocket Scientist
> 1968 442 convertible, originally & to be again W30, et. al
> Lansing, MI :=: wittchri@pilot.msu.edu
> --

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:51:48 -0600
From: Oldsmagnet <buehner@lyrea.com>
Subject: Re: removing back seat

The seat belts are holding it in.  Remove the outer seat belt bolts, and the
bottom of the seat should be loose.  The whole thing then slides ~up~ to 
remove.


Oldsmagnet - Charley Buehner @ Sidney Montana |\      |-------|
mailto:buehner@lyrea.com To mail direct to me |/\|=|  |   |   |
http://www.lyrea.com/~buehner See my homepage |\ |=|  |   |   |
   \ | / =========================== \ | /    |<||=|  |   |   |
    \|/  List Removal and Guidelines  \|/     |/ |=|  |  / \  |
     V   ===========================   V      |\/|=|  | / | \ |
  http://www.lyrea.com/~buehner/listfaq.htm   |/      |___|___|

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:56:00 -0600
From: Oldsmagnet <buehner@lyrea.com>
Subject: Re: Ch*vy+Olds = I DON'T THINK SO!!!

> He said his '60 V*tte was better! Uh-huh, yeah
> right!
> If you take a 400 SBC crank and do such and such and put it in a Rocket
> 350 you can make a 383 Olds/Ch*v stroker.

Kinda sounds like he's stroking something else.....

>Everyone knows Sh*tvy and Oldsmadia parts don't mix!

Except at Padnos, right Chris?  Uh, Chris, we miss ya already :(

> Still FURIOUS about that little 383 comment though!!!

He didn't have "Car Craft" plates on it, did he???
- --
Oldsmagnet - Charley Buehner @ Sidney Montana |\      |-------|
mailto:buehner@lyrea.com To mail direct to me |/\|=|  |   |   |
http://www.lyrea.com/~buehner See my homepage |\ |=|  |   |   |
   \ | / =========================== \ | /    |<||=|  |   |   |
    \|/  List Removal and Guidelines  \|/     |/ |=|  |  / \  |
     V   ===========================   V      |\/|=|  | / | \ |
  http://www.lyrea.com/~buehner/listfaq.htm   |/      |___|___|

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:00:52 -0400
From: "Peter Berusch" <pber710840@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: 65 Oldsmobile 98

As for production numbers for the 1965 98, you did not specify which of the
three models you have, but here is the breakdown :  Town Sedans - 13,266
Holiday Sports Sedan - 28,480  Luxury Sedan - 33,591.  As far as value is
concerned, you will find that to be very sensitive to miles, equipment set,
condition, color, and even location.  Anywhere from a few hundred dollars to
two to four thousand.  I just bought a 1966 two door hardtop for $300.
Admittedly, the engine will not start.  It has lain idle for ten years, but
it is nicely optioned, complete and straight.  If I were to sell my 69 98 LS
HT somewhere in the low two's would get it.  It's really kind of subjective.
As for how many are left, I have never been able to determine this.  I know
there are people who advertise in Hemmings who offer that service for a fee.
How did you come by the car?  Are you the original owner?  Peter
- -----Original Message-----
From: Dustin Robinette <angst@primenet.com>
To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Date: Sunday, June 28, 1998 1:50 PM
Subject: 65 Oldsmobile 98


>Interested in finding out if my one owner 1965 Olds 98 4 door has any
value.
>If so, then how much?? Also, how many were built that year and how many are
>still in existence today.  Any information is very much appreciated.
Thanks!!
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:35:08 EDT
From: <DROLDS350@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Air conditioning

	in illinois  we can still get our a/c units recharged  its expensive 
but what
else can you do
                    jim

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:29:24 -0300
From: Raul Martinez <rmart@satlink.com>
Subject: RE: Stop Including Trivial Files was Re: Dashpot Explanation

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDA2BA.518C2E00
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

	For some reason totally unexplained to me seems my message have some 
kind of
attachment.

	1. Dind't that be my intention
	2. When I look at it at the list, since of course I receive it, nothing
attached appears. 	3. Please if any have any idea of what's happening 
tell me

	Regards,

	Raul
	1966 Delta 88

- -----Mensaje original-----
De:	KarlAune@aol.com [SMTP:KarlAune@aol.com]
Enviado el:	Domingo 28 de Junio de 1998 02:49
Para:	oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
Asunto:	Stop Including Trivial Files was Re: Dashpot Explanation

In a message dated 98-06-27 14:10:38 EDT, you write:

<<  File:  Unknown.bin (1755 bytes) DL Time (28800 bps): < 1 minute

  Can anyone take a small time (or directed to) to explain me which is the
function and how a dashpot carb works? Thanks in advance, Raul 1966 Delta 88
>>

OK.

Karl gots a gripe.

Please stop including those (what are they anyway? buisiness cards?) files
with your submission.

If you must send info about yourself, place it in your footer ONE time per
day.

Anyone who needs to know who/where you are can find you quickly enough by
consulting you privately.

Meantime my download folder has eight different "Unknown" files of less than
2K that appear as meaningless code when I try to open them.

It is tough enough to root through all of the Oldsmobile mail without making a
special trip to my download folder to delete outright all of the crap!

And now for something completely different: Olds content.

I got some GOOD pics of my diff code stamping with a digital camera on my last
day with my former client.

But I forgot the disk there.
These will promptly be posted when I have occasion to back there.
(New job is in completely opposite direction    :-(    )

KA
&SOM

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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDA2BA.518C2E00--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:48:27 -0600
From: Oldsmagnet <buehner@lyrea.com>
Subject: Re: illegal racing "penalties" - Long!!!

Don Sowers wrote:
>
> FWIW, and I know that isn't much to people that are going to do what
> they want anyway, back in my high school days about 30 years or so ago

> drag race on a 'deserted country road'.

Growing up in Montana, "Country Road" usually refers to a single lane
dirt/gravel ~trail~ leading from the highway to somewhere else.  I'll assume 
the
country roads discussed here are two lane/paved.

	< < < S N I P > > > of tragic story

> real crazy thing about this was there was a NHRA dragstip about three
> miles from where the wreck happened that was less than five years old.

Now ~that~ is plain stupid.  You'll hear no arguments from me there.  However,
many areas don't have that convenience.  Its hard to create assumptions about
safety of racing 30 years ago, though.  I can assume seat belts weren't
involved, since they were a new item back then.  Whenever I race, I've got both
lap belt and shoulder belt on tight.  No reason not to.  I also very seldem
allow passengers.  The fact that the car caught fire makes me question its
safety, although, as I said, it's very difficult to create assumptions.  My
guesses are that by today's safety standards, that vehicle wouldn't have passed
tech anyway.  Also, one has to wonder about the local definition of "race."
That's before my time, but if I can put any faith in what the older movies have
shown, and what older friends have described, I'd say it probably went more 
than
1/4 mile.  Like five miles, perhaps, and likely ~not~ a straight road.  Gotta 
be
challenging right?  I've heard that was quite common.  See, there are several
different race styles available, road, drag, and street being the most common.
Road, being a highway course, usually five to ten miles in length, usually
reaching speeds well into the triple digits.  Drag, 1/8 or 1/4 mile, reaching
speeds of maybe 110, on average.  And street, which usually is done in less 
than
one block, reaching speeds of ~maybe~ 60 mph.  I'm betting that there was no
distinction in the tragic "race" story mentioned, but here again, I can only
assume.

> What do I think anout street racing?  It's a good way to commit
> suicide/murder.  Take it to the strip and spend the $10 or so

In my three years of ~daily~ street racing (we'd go out to the same section of
highway, usually ~every~ day weather would allow) full 1/4 mile, marked, on a
used highway.  Never saw a single accident there.  Had one kid try doing
something stupid, that at worst case would have involved some wrinkled sheet
metal on a camaro.  Nothing serious, but stupid.  We never allowed him to race
with us again.  Never any accidents though.  Not one.  Drag racing has its
risks, as does any sport.  You've got better odds of serious injury playing
football that you do in a drag race.  If properly planned, drag racing is a 
very
safe sport, even on the highway.  Our 1/4 course was on an "in service"
highway.  We had about a mile visibility, with shallow ditches and no trees.
Perfect track for it.  We always had the ongoing agreement that any oncoming
traffic automatically aborted the race, and that the suicide lane car took
immediate priority in returning to the right lane.  The verbal rule was that in
the event of oncoming traffic, if the race was close, the right side car would
brake, and allow the left lane car to merge.  Safely, in plenty of time.  These
things need to be agreed upon in advance, though.  That's a must.

One other thing to consider, which growing up in Montana, I'm very familiar
with.  For so many, NHRA type strips are out of the question.  Back home, the
nearest 1/4 mile track was 250 miles away.  The nearest 1/8 was about 150 
miles,
in another country.  That poses a whole new challenge for racers.  Especially
those without a trailer.  There's always the "what if" factor to deal with.  In
our three years of racing, we never witnessed any severe mechanical failures,
but throwing a rod is nothing rare for the che*y participants.  Spun bearings
are always a threat, too.  How ya gonna get home?  Well, five miles isn't bad 
to
have a friend rope-tow you back.  250 is a bit much, though.  Not many racers
back home had access to a trailer and tow vehicle.  We ~all~ had ropes and
jumper cables.  Now, here in Sidney, our nearest 1/4 track is the same one, but
closer to 300 miles, I guess.  I guess there's a 1/8 track somewhere in ND,
about 180 miles away.  Not sure.  Still, a limiting factor.  A long way to go
for a ~spur of the moment~ challenge.

 and have
> some back up if the loser turns out to be a little unable to handle it.

That's always a threat to watch out for.  However, at a NHRA track, if someone
goes awry, there are often big concrete guards to shove him back into play...
and into the other car.  On the highway, (if properly planned) there are 
shallow
ditches to coast down in.  Personally, I'd rather be there, in those cases!

> Besides, the strips are built for it, the streets and highways aren't.

I wouldn't go that far, either.  Tires play a huge role in that statement.  You
can take a 13 second car on the street, and not see 15 on the track.  You can
take a 12 second track car and not hit 16 on the street.  Trust me, I've raced
'em.  If you're running slicks, you ain't gonna do well on the street.  If
you're running tread, you won't do as well on the track.  Just a matter of
traction.  While the highway may not be well suited for doing a tire heating
burnout (which really doesn't help street tires anyway) they're still very well
suited.  Here again, ~if properly planned.~  You need to be thorough about
choosing a 1/4 course.

> Besides, if something bad does happen, all the needed and vital services
> area readily available.

That is a certain bonus.  I always have the cell phone with me, and try keeping
a fire extinguisher around, just in case.  Never needed to use them, but it's
always best to be safe.

> Flame retardant suit on and fire extinguishers at the ready.......

Well, I hope this doesn't come across as a flame, it's not meant to.  I feel
very strongly that a certified drag-only track is the best way to run your
races.  However, for so so many of us, it's just not an option.  At all.  If we
had one even remotely close, I know I'd spend my weekends there.  All of em!  I
love HP, especially on the street.  That's another gripe I have about the drag
cars.  Sure, anybody can run a 9 second quarter.  But, can they go get an ice
cream cone in the car???  Can they cruise around all night long without 
worrying
about overheating?  Can it ~idle~ at all?  Not likely.  That loses alot of
class, in my eyes.  Our races, we ~all~ drove our race cars there.  What good 
is
it if you can't drive it?  Last year, we had the reputation of the fastest cars
on the streets of Havre.  (The Rockit, the GS, and Powell's GTO (pics of it on
my page)  Not undefeated, but arguably the fastest.  There were many cars in
town that would ~smoke~ us hard...  If they ever had the ba**s to drive em on
the street.  As far as I'm concerned, they just don't count.

Heh heh... We made a video tape of Powell and I racing once.  Both about 14
second cars, at the time, well, his a little slower ;)  I had the camcorder, 
and
just wanted to see what the suspension was doing on my launches.  We had his
girlfriend running the camera, and made a few runs.  Entertaining.  He asked to
borrow the tape once, he was doing a speech on musclecars, I guess.  He played
the tape in class, everyone loved it.  The teacher piped in with "where was 
this
filmed???"  "Up north.   ...Your husband's a cop, I ain't telling you any
more!"  I got a good laugh from that!

Anyway, the moral of the story is this:  If you ~do~ race on the street or
highway, be ~extra~ cautious, and plan way ahead.  Pick the perfect stretch of
highway with shallow ditches, short grass, high visibility, and low road crown,
etc.  Cops will nail you regardless of how safe it is, so be prepared.
- --
Oldsmagnet - Charley Buehner @ Sidney Montana |\      |-------|
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------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #1336
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