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Subject:	oldsmobile-digest V1 #1565


oldsmobile-digest     Thursday, October 22 1998     Volume 01 : Number 1565



Re: O/D Transmissions
Re: Convertible Top Question..
Re: Other four barrels don't work and vaccuume is low (long)
Re: Other four barrels don't work and vaccuume is low (long)
Re: Air cleaners (70-72 OAI)
Re: Air cleaners (70-72 OAI)
Re: O/D Transmissions (long)
FS:65 Olds"F-85" drivers side fender
Re: O/D Transmissions (long)
I need Q-jet help!!!
Re: More '68 Cutlass bucket seat questions...
Rocket Talk
Re: of carbs and ignitions
Re: Soylent's brakes
Re: Ticka Ticka (was somethin else)
RE: Soylent's brakes
Re: Trans / Converter
Oil pan sealage
Re: Soylent's brakes
Re: Glass Codes
Re: Oil pan sealage
Re: Rocket Talk
Re: O/D Transmissions (long)
Re: O/D Transmissions (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:18:20 +0100
From: Matt Cremean <creme1ma@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu>
Subject: Re: O/D Transmissions

mmborden@m9.sprynet.com wrote:
>
> What car/brand typically used that trans??
> Thanks... ldb

Strait from the FAQ"

TH-200-R4 ID's:
ID     Year(s)  Application
KZF **              Olds 442/Hurst
CZF **              Monte SS
BRF **              GN/T-Type/Turbo Regals
OZ **               Hurst Olds
OM                  Olds 350 Diesels
OG                  Olds 307
BY                  V-6 252 Cars
AA and AP           Cadillac's

Transmissions marked "**" have a special (better for performance) valve
body, plate, 1-2 servo, 3-4 servo, 2-3 intermediate servo, and governor.

- --
*************
Matt Cremean
mailto:creme1ma@cmich.edu
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
1975 Cutlass S Hardtop Coupe (250 L-6 1bbl) "parts car"
1973 Cutlass Supreme Hardtop Coupe (350 V-8 4bbl) "The Oldsmoslow"
1970 Cutlass S Holiday Coupe (350 V-8 2bbl) "The Unit"
1983 Ch*vrolet C*price (305 V-8 4bbl) "The Blue Taxi"
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/3973/
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:56:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: hitson@i1.net (roger hitson)
Subject: Re: Convertible Top Question..

> 15 seconds sounds about right.



>  As
>for the air bubbles, I read that the only method of purging the system
>is to fully run the top and down several times and the air
>automatically goes out.
>

It is my understanding that this should be done with the reservoir plug
out, adding fluid as necessary.

roger

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:51:42 -0400
From: Padavano.Joe@Orbital.COM
Subject: Re: Other four barrels don't work and vaccuume is low (long)

Anyway in my quest to fix that problem I took the quadrajet off and ever
since I put it back on  I lose major power when I get into the other four
barrels.
_________

Unless you have dual quads, I assume you mean the back two barrels of your
Q-jet 4bbl.

============

I talked to a guy at checkers and he said that unless I had 20-22
of vaccume at idle I had a vaccume problem and that would keep the other
four barrels from working right.
__________

The guy's an idiot.  Q-jets do not use vacuum operated secondaries.  They
are mechanical, with an air valve above that's operated by air flow rate,
not vacuum.  Second, the secondaries don't open at idle, they open at
W.O.T., so idle vacuum is irrelevant even on a car that _does_ have vacuum
secondaries.  You might get better auto info from Dear Abby than this
joker.

============

I checked and I have 15 at idle but it is
pretty steady and just vibrates a little.  If anyone could give me some
ideas on why the engine loses power when engaging the secondary barrels, I
would greatly appreciate it.  One thing that might have been stupid was
when I had the carb apart I rebent the arm that extends from the cam on the
top intake plates and holds the 2 metering rods so that it did not catch on
the carb housing anymore, could that be the problem?  If so could I get
some tips or measurements on how that arm is supposed to be setup.

__________

Yes, this could be one possible problem, though a more likely answer is
that the air valve wrap spring is set too loose.  The air valve is the pair
of large metal plates located in the air horn above the secondaries.  These
plates open as required based on the amount of air flowing through the
secondaries.  With the engine warmed up, you can try pushing on the air
valve and should sense some spring resistance trying to close them.  This
spring can be adjusted.  The easiest way is to remove the carb.  Look at
the driver's side of the air horn, where the air valve shaft exits the
housing.  You should see a small slotted screw in the housing (you may need
to rotate the air valve shaft to see it).  Now look directly underneath
this screw on the underside of the air horn and you should see a small coil
spring and an allen head set screw.  Loosen the set screw and back off on
the slotted screw until the end of the spring no longer contacts the pin
coming off the air valve shaft.  With the air valves closed, rotate the
slotted screw until the spring just touches this pin, then go 3/4 of a turn
more (to add preload).  Holding it there, tighten the allen head set screw
and you're done.

=============

...couldn't find anything that I thought resembled a set of  timing marks.
__________

Uh, start with the harmonic balancer.  You'll see a line cut in it.  This
matches up with the timing tab, which is located on the driver's side of
the front cover, below the water pump.  Look just inboard of the power
steering pump.

Joe Padavano
padavano.joe@orbital.com

66 442
68 W-30
69 H/O
69 442
70 W-30

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:19:05 -0700
From: Chris Sparks <mrada@catalina-inter.net>
Subject: Re: Other four barrels don't work and vaccuume is low (long)

Padavano.Joe@orbital.com wrote:

- -blah-blah-blah-carb talk-snipped

I wish I could have Joe as my personal mechanic.  Dang he can talk the
talk
and walk the walk.  I am definitely awed by his knowledge!

- --
Chris Sparks
68 442 SC - Frosty
68 442 HT - Scarlet
68 442 HT - Saffron
82 DRB    - Dr. "B"
http://www.catalina-inter.net/mrada

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:43:37 -0400
From: rmoriarty@blairinc.com
Subject: Re: Air cleaners (70-72 OAI)

Joe,
Thanks for the hole size info! I'm hoping to put that to good use that this
weekend.

<Corvette Mode On>
However, based on precise measurements taken from a known OE OAI base, the
holes are not evenly spaced. If you start with the base up-side down and
the snorkel at 12:00, indexing from the hole aligned with the right
breather inlet, and work your way clockwise the holes are evenly spaced
until you get to the one near the vacuum line clamp. If you follow the
standard spacing with this hole, it lays out prohibitively close to the
clamp. Now, some people say that these holes are hand drilled, which would
account for differences in the spacing, but I disagree. In addition to the
fact that they are way too clean, they are centered along the radius within
the raised (remember the base is up-side down now) drain ring. I took the
measurements with a 1/100th ruler. I believe anomalies inherent in hand
production work would be evident at that size. When I'm done modifying my
standard 442 base to the OAI specs we can compare it to your OE OAI base
and see.
<Corvette Mode Off>

Thanks Again!
Ray Moriarty
70 Cutlass Conv. X2
70 442 Conv.



(The following is for Ray Moriarty) These holes are 1/4" in diameter and
equally spaced on a 15 5/8" circle.  Two of the holes are located directly
below the two holes for the pipes to the valve covers, the others are
equally spaced.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:53:55 -0400
From: Padavano.Joe@Orbital.COM
Subject: Re: Air cleaners (70-72 OAI)

However, based on precise measurements taken from a known OE OAI base, the
holes are not evenly spaced.
________

Thanks for the info, Ray.  If you  used a ruler, you're several orders of
magnitude more accurate than my eyeball measurement of "evenly spaced".
I'll try and get an exact measurement of mine.

Joe Padavano
padavano.joe@orbital.com

66 442
68 W-30
69 H/O
69 442
70 W-30

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 23:14:46 -0400
From: "Edward Binnix" <comid@jellico.com>
Subject: Re: O/D Transmissions (long)

The way I understand it the 4I80E tranny is strong enough but is electronic
and needs a computer. If that is truly the case, it seems that the switch to
that tranny could get really complicated (read: expensive and frustrating).
I believe that there is a manufacturer making a control box for this tranny
that is basically an ECM computer and harness without the engine controls.
If memory serves me correctly, I disregarded it myself because it had a very
high price tag. What we need is someone to convert this tranny to
non-electronic function. Maybe it cannot be done. Maybe it would cost even
more. I wish someone would come up with something.

- -----Original Message-----

>Thanks Ben.. will I need any adaptors that you are aware of??

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:28:31 -0400
From: Padavano.Joe@Orbital.COM
Subject: FS:65 Olds"F-85" drivers side fender

Found this on the web, usual disclaimers, contact him, not me...

Joe Padavano
padavano.joe@orbital.com

66 442
68 W-30
69 H/O
69 442
70 W-30

==================

For Sale: 65 Olds"F-85" drivers side fender

date: 10/14/98
Phone: (941)471-6210
Email: domicuda@strato.net
City: sebring
State: fl
Country: USA

Description

good wheel well trim on it,fender is undented and no rust...asking $75 plus
 shipping from Florida

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:33:59 -0400
From: Padavano.Joe@Orbital.COM
Subject: Re: O/D Transmissions (long)

 ...4I80E tranny...
___________

Everything Ed posted is correct.  There are kits on the market with a
stand-alone computer, and none are cheap.  By  the way, that's 4L80E, not
4I80E.  Under GM's new transmission nomenclature, the first digit signifies
the number of speeds, the second place is either L or T (for longitudinal -
RWD or transverse-FWD, and no, they no longer make the longitudinal FWD
Toro transmission), the next two are somehow related to the transmission's
torque carrying capacity (higher is better), and the E designates
electronic, as in computer controlled.

Joe Padavano
padavano.joe@orbital.com

66 442
68 W-30
69 H/O
69 442
70 W-30

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:55:16 +0100
From: Matt Cremean <creme1ma@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu>
Subject: I need Q-jet help!!!

How does one go about taking a Q-jet from an EGR '73 and making it so
that it runs correctly on a '70 non-EGR engine? Particularly a 350? I
know it has to involve metering rods, but probably a lot more as well.

Any info appreciated, because I'm going to have to do this twice!
- --
*************
Matt Cremean
mailto:creme1ma@cmich.edu
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
1975 Cutlass S Hardtop Coupe (250 L-6 1bbl) "parts car"
1973 Cutlass Supreme Hardtop Coupe (350 V-8 4bbl) "The Oldsmoslow"
1970 Cutlass S Holiday Coupe (350 V-8 2bbl) "The Unit"
1983 Ch*vrolet C*price (305 V-8 4bbl) "The Blue Taxi"
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/3973/
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:49:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: George <cutlass@one.camd.lsu.edu>
Subject: Re: More '68 Cutlass bucket seat questions...

> I'm still trying to figure out if these seats are for this car or an older
> year (they don't have headrests) or if they're from another make of car. The
> pattern of seat cover on them does not match any patterns in the various
> supplier catalogs. If anyone could e-mail (privately, of course) pictures of
> their '68 buckets, I would be most appreciative.
>
> One problem with the seats I have is they recline way too much. You find
> yourself leaning up and stretching to see the road when driving. From what I
> can tell, there's no way to adjust them. The only possible solution I see is
> to raise the rear mounting brackets 2-3 inches. So I guess a bracket
> extension will have to be made. Anyone had this problem with theirs?
>

In my op. this sounds like a original seat setup with non original
covers... mine are reclining plenty too and i can't see a way to adjust
them neither. I am still looking at an empty interior of a non driving
car but I am very sure my seats which are original have no adjustment on
them...

If the seats (springs and body) are in good shape I would go ahead and
order new covers and rise them in the back and there you go.

George

- --------------------------------------------------------------
'68 Cuttlass S Conv.
http://estimator.camd.lsu.edu/georg/sparetime/olds.html
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:42:25 EDT
From: KarlAune@aol.com
Subject: Rocket Talk

Karl has been busy and unavailable lately, even when he proposed to show.

8:30pm central time last Thursday was unrewarding, except that J. Labay was
distracted from a Ch*tty room long enough for a brief dialogue.

Karl will try to be punctual and so will try to concluse earlier 'phone calls
in time for an 8:00pm central time prescene in RT.

This is found at http://www.lyrea.com/~buehner.html

Be patient, some of those present might be using ICQ chat simultaneously!!

SOM

&KA
ICQ #20414415
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/thurlow/858/index.html
http://members.aol.com/KarlAune/rage.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:42:12 EDT
From: KarlAune@aol.com
Subject: Re: of carbs and ignitions

In a message dated 98-10-22 07:36:32 EDT, you write:

<< It would miss majorly after running for about. Someone suggested that a
condensor might be out so I went and bought a $3 set of points and I got a new
car. >>

<< My thoughts on this problem - I have fixed more caruretors with a set of
points,plugs, cap and rotor than I can remember - The General>>

According to Roe, most "carb problems" are really something else entirely.

Karl believes SOM is having choke probs, but as Karl rebuilt carb, is his own
fault. Cheifly, think fast idle adjustment misadjusted. Karl will readjust,
and replace cap/rotor points on Friday, just as most of you get to work.

And although Karl fully intends to swap to Holley or Q-jet, will get a correct
rebuild kit to replace needle & seat!

Yah. Poor promo for URCW site.

SOM

&KA
ICQ #20414415
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/thurlow/858/index.html
http://members.aol.com/KarlAune/rage.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:42:24 EDT
From: KarlAune@aol.com
Subject: Re: Soylent's brakes

In a message dated 98-10-22 07:24:31 EDT, you write:

<< Definitely sounds like brake drum coated with foreign material. Either oil
 from the axle or brake fluid from cylinder. Should be obvious when you get
 it apart. >>

Wouldn't oil or fluid cause slip, not grab??

Oil seal possible, opposite side one has been replaced twice.....

Karl thought of something.

Got three new shocks on.
Not in corner that grabs!
Could axle have bent between absorb/no absorb?

Thanks!

SOM

&KA
ICQ #20414415
http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/thurlow/858/index.html
http://members.aol.com/KarlAune/rage.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:23:39 -0400
From: Jim Olson <jolson@edzone.net>
Subject: Re: Ticka Ticka (was somethin else)

My experiences with Olds V8s is that the rocker arm/pivot design is
prone to wear in the saddles, mostly with lots of miles, and then the
valve lash is not correct, since they aren't adjustable. This creates
the ticking sound. The only real fix is to replace the arms and pivots.

Jim...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:23:27 -0600
From: "B. Sanders" <blaines@strata3d.com>
Subject: RE: Soylent's brakes

> Wouldn't oil or fluid cause slip, not grab??
>
> Oil seal possible, opposite side one has been replaced twice.....

One might think so, but not true.  I don't know why it grabs, but it does.
Perhaps it's because the fluid in there gets really sticky when it gets
burned, or because the brake pads swell?  I have that problem with my '76
Ch*vy 4WD.  There's actually a groove in the axle where the seal contacts it
(probably from sand and dirt getting in there), so that drum gets full of
gear oil all the time.  When I'm going slow, and particularly when the
brakes are cold, that wheel locks up with the slightest pressure on the
pedal.  However, when I get going, and the brakes get heated up, I have to
press the pedal twice as hard as I normally would, because that wheel slips.
I took the drum off once and cleaned it out.  At first I was looking at it
thinking, "What the heck?  Some jack-ass packed this think full of bearing
grease..."  But it was actually just hardened, burned gear oil mixed with
brake dust.  After I cleaned it out and replaced the seal, the brakes worked
great for about a month, until they got full of axle lube again.  If you've
had to replace the seal on the other side twice, there's a good chance that
the other one needs it too.

Blaine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:23:04 -0600
From: "Igor T. '81 455DRB" <igor455@home.com>
Subject: Re: Trans / Converter

For street use, I agree with the guys.  No more then 2400 would be
recommended.  If you have gears lower then 3.08s (numerically lower, like
2.73s), I would not go with any but stock converter.  If you get a stall,
then what you will notice on the highway is that if you are doing 55 mph and
you hit the gas, the RPMs will go up a bit, but your speed wont.  If you are
going against head wind, then the RPMs will stay up all the time.  This is
what happened to my friend, so he switched to 3.42s from 2.73s.  I have a
12-inch converter that will stall well over 2000 (probably 2400) in my TH400
behind a 455 and 3.23 posi.  I could not tell you what it will stall at
exactly because even with my foot FIRM FIRM on the break, the tires spin.
But as far as regular driveability is concerned, I don't notice a thing
between this and stock.  Igor.

Igor Todorovic, UofC, Calgary, Alberta

1981 Delta 88 4dr (455/th400/3.23 posi)
1981 Regency 98 (307/2004r/propane)
1981 Dodge MaxiVan (360/727/4.10s)

igor455@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:55:40 -0400
From: "Mark Thurman" <Thurman@kvnet.org>
Subject: Oil pan sealage

<snip> QUESTION -HOW ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO INSTALL THE OIL PAN SEALS?

Brian,

haven't done it on an Olds but here's what FINALLY worked (and I tried many
various methods) for me on a Ch*vy 350 oil pan that I replaced with the
motor in the truck: 1)a top quality gasket set (may be redundant but this
took me a while to learn).   2)use "3m weatherstripping adhesive" (comes in
a tube, looks like yellow snot but boy-howdy it's good stuff)  to attach the
cork gaskets to the pan  3)put the front & rear (rubber) seals on the pan
(used 3 or 4 drops of 3m adhesive to hold them in place) & place a very,
very small amount of RTV at the points where these seals meet the cork
gaskets  4) while letting the RTV "skim over" wipe the block with a
degreaser soaked rag, then with an isopropyl alcohol soaked rag, let it dry
and install the pan.  Hope it works as good for you as it did for me......mt

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:10:53 -0400
From: Padavano.Joe@Orbital.COM
Subject: Re: Soylent's brakes

Wouldn't oil or fluid cause slip, not grab??
___________

One of the great unexplained mysteries of the universe is why foriegn
fluids on brake shoes cause grabbing instead of slipping.  Not intuitive,
but true.

Joe Padavano
padavano.joe@orbital.com

66 442
68 W-30
69 H/O
69 442
70 W-30

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 98 14:15 EDT
From: turley@symplex.com (Mike Turley)
Subject: Re: Glass Codes

All,

It's such a quiet day and all ...

On 8/31 docbob send a glass code break-down to the list, and I just
printed it and saved it.  I got it out today and used it on my
'66 442.

All the glass had date code "JA", which I interpretted as Sept. of
1965.  (Year, then month - See below.)

Which is certainly possible for a '66 car.  However, my car is a
2nd week of June (1966) car.

If I use J as month and A as year, I get May 1966 - which even more
likely.  (This is one of the few examples, that yield the same
production year.)

Have any of you looked at your own glass and done this?
Which is right?  I await your verdict.

Thanks,
Mike Turley
turley@symplex.com

>
> Glass Codes
>
> Soft - Ray
> SAFETY  L  PLATE
>      O
>      F
> AS2            VA
> SOLID TEMPERED
> DOT 15 MXX
>
> Soft - Ray.................. Tinted Glass
> Safety Plate ...............Original equipment glass
> L-O-F.........................Libby-Owens-Ford
> AS2...........................Side Glass
> AS1...........................Windshield
> V ..............................Calender Year
> A ..............................Month
>
> Calendar year glass codes
>
> 1963               C
> 1964                G
> 1965                J
> 1966                A
> 1967                Z
> 1968                 X
> 1969                 V
> 1970                 T
> 1971                 N
> 1972                 Y
>
>
> Month of production
>
> January              N
> Febuary             X
> March               L
> April                  G
> May                  J
> June                  I
> July                   U
> August              T
> September         A
> October              Y
> November           C
> December            V
>
> I hope some of you find this as usefull as I have
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:21:16 -0400
From: Padavano.Joe@Orbital.COM
Subject: Re: Oil pan sealage

...1)a top quality gasket set...
__________

The hot ticket here is the diesel Olds oil pan gasket, which has a metal
core.

=============

...looks like yellow snot...to attach the cork gaskets to the pan...
__________

Just don't try to get it off...

=============

...put the front & rear (rubber) seals on the pan...
__________

I don't think you can do this on a Olds.  The front seal must fit into a
groove on the front cover, and there are molded pins in the seal that fit
into holes in the bottom of the groove.  Doing this with the seal glued to
the pan will be a challenge, to say the least.  Additionally, since
replacing the pan with the block in the car pretty much guarnatees that
you'll knock the gasket off on something, I'd suggest gluing the gaskets to
the block.

=============

...wipe the block with a degreaser soaked rag, then with an isopropyl
alcohol soaked rag...
__________

Excellent advice, though I usually use laquer thinner, as a single wipe
gets the job done.

While we're talking cleaning, I had the chance to use a new tool last night
while prepping my 455 block.  It's one of those "scotchbite" disks for
removing old gasket material from the sealing surfaces.  These things work
great!  Cleans up the gaskets, light rust, and lightly deburrs the surface.
The only problem is that the stuff coming off flies everywhere, so you need
to cover any internals that you don't want it to get into.

Joe Padavano
padavano.joe@orbital.com

66 442
68 W-30
69 H/O
69 442
70 W-30

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:27:19 -0400
From: "Jason P. Labay" <jlabay@neo.lrun.com>
Subject: Re: Rocket Talk

Hey now I saw that :-) I wish we could get something set up on IRC like we do 
in
F-body chat.  It is much easier to use. I would imagine that all that would be
needed to do is register on a server like irc.dal.net the room #oldsmobile. Not
sure exactly how it works though.

Jason Labay  Akron, OH jlabay@neo.lrun.com
http://home.neo.lrun.com/jlabay
>
>8:30pm central time last Thursday was unrewarding, except that J. Labay was
>distracted from a Ch*tty room long enough for a brief dialogue.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:31:56 -0500
From: Shang <shang@wans.net>
Subject: Re: O/D Transmissions (long)

I emailed Art Carr back in July and here is the reponse I received. I
told him that I was running a Olds 455 that was making 425HP and 550lbs
of torque. I cut and pasted it, sorry if the formatting is screwy.

Dear Mr. Stephen Hoover,

My name is David Gallitero; I am a Sales Representative and Tech
Assistant for Art Carr Performance Products. I am responding to your
email in regards to the durability factor of the TH-2004R transmission
that we build. Honestly, you are above the maximum limit for torque for
this transmission. It is not the horsepower, it is the ft lbs of torque
that these transmissions can't handle. Realistically, the TH-2004R can
only handle about 450-500 ft lbs of torque. You have really only two
options; One, is to go with the 4L80E set up. Two, is to go with the
TH-400 with the Gear Vendor's overdrive. I know these options might be
out of your price range, but as far as durability and reliability is
concerned, it is the only option. The 4L80E is a much better choice over
the TH-400 with the Gear Vendor's overdrive. This transmission has a lot
to offer as far as performance and don't forget the overdrive. The gear
ratio in the overdrive is .75, which is great on the highway. There are
a lot of pros and cons putting a Gear Vendor's overdrive behind a
TH-400. With the 4L80E, you don't have to worry about that and it is the
same thing as a TH-400 with an overdrive. The price you are looking at
is $2,450.00 plus a $600.00 core charge. You also have to buy our
tailshaft housing that is set up for the mechanical speedo, $395.00 your
price. I'd also set you up in our 10" HD Super Torque converter, this
would put you at 2500-2800 stall. $575.00 your price. As far as a stand
alone computer is concerned, you would have to call around for prices
and availability. If you have any further questions, please call me on
our toll free number (888)526-5868 or you can email me at
dave@autoglobaltech.com.



As you can see, they are obviously pushing the 4L80E, since that is what
they sell - the 2500 - 2800 stall is not really streetable in my mind.
The price of the 4L80E alone is enough to make me say that this is not
an option. The gear vendor unit is cheaper ($2295) and has the
advantages of gear splitting, although the .78 O/D ratio is a little
weak for the purpose of overdrive (depending on what gear you want to
run and how much RPM would want it to turn at highway speeds)

Pontiac Performance mag has been running an article about installing a
TH-2004R in a '67 GTO behind a 455. The transmission was actually
installed two years ago and to date they have not experienced any
reliability problems. They did not give the particulars of the motor,
but Pontiacs make just as much or more torque than Olds. I also think
that we Olds people need to be a little more realistic about out torque
figures. The motor that Mondello built in Car Craft earlier this year
used his JM4-5 cam which carries 238/246 deg @.050 lift in duration and
is listed as Pro Drag Race. This motor only made 559 ft lbs of torque
and I don't think there are very many of us out there with cams that
big. From what I have seen posted on the list, most of us are sticking
to the much more streetable 214-230 range and I think that our motors
are just not making as much torque as we would like to believe. (Just my
opinion, please spam me personally (and not the list)if you disagree.)
The only thing that I can see that would really destroy a TH-2004R very
quickly would be regular trips to the track with slicks. If this is what
you intend for you car, go with a TH-400 and forget the overdrive.

I currently have a built TH-2004R behind my now defunct 350 (hmmm, maybe
the weak TH-2004R killed my motor - ya never know:) It will be about 3
months before I get my 455 built and running. I am planning on running
my TH-2004R behind my 455 until it gives up. If it goes out within two
years, then I am changing my gears to 3.23's and running a 4-speed. If
not, then I'll know the TH-2004R can do the job.

Just in case you are wondering what my 455 will be like, I am going to
run 10.25 pistons with E heads (so it will be like 9.5-9.7 actual
compression) and the Comp Cams 270H (224deg@.050 and .501 lift) with
3.73 gears.


Stephen Hoover
Dallas, Texas
'70 Supreme

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:32:27 -0700
From: Ben <olds442@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: O/D Transmissions (long)

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Okay, here is the text file I was refering to. Has LOAD of info to get
anybody started on a TH-400, 350, 700R4, or 200-4R swap. Lots of info on
almost every dimension inside and out of the trannies. Really a good resource
I have kept around.
ANOTHER possobility of overdrive is the aftermarket.  I can't recall off the
top of my head who makes them or their web site, but I've looked at it and
for about the price of a new transmission (which you'd pay anyhow) you can
get an O/D unit that bolts onto the tail of the tranny. I don't know exactly
how they do it, if you have to cut the driveshaft and what ratios of O/D you
can get, but Just do an Infoseek search on O/D or just ask Qs on the list and
somebody will remember.

Ben

mmborden@m9.sprynet.com wrote:

> Thanks Ben.. will I need any adaptors that you are aware of??
> Thanks... ldb

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<Picture>



- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Transmissions

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------




Automatic Transmission Identification



The electrical connectors on the TH-350C, TH-250C, and TH-200C are for th=
e lockup torque converter clutch. Note that the 'C' suffix on the transmi=
ssion model signifies it is a lockup torque converter model (i.e. TH-350:=
 no lockup, TH-350C: lockup). The reverse light switch is part of the neu=
tral safety switch assembly. The same switch is used to tell the ECM that=
 the vehicle is in park/neutral as opposed to in gear (idle control). =


The TH-250 and TH-350 are almost identical, except the TH-250 uses interm=
ediate band for all 2nd gear applications where the TH-350 uses intermedi=
ate clutch for automatic 2nd gear and the intermediate band for manual 2n=
d gear. I would recommend replacing a TH-250 with a TH-350, since the TH-=
350 is a bit more durable. =


Also, there is a difference between the 6 cylinder version and the 8 cyli=
nder version of the TH-350. The 8 cylinder version uses more clutch plate=
s for greater clutch capacity whereas the 6 cylinder version uses a thick=
er clutch piston to make up for the smaller number of clutch plates. Also=
, GM built special versions for the Corvette and police cars; heaviest bu=
ilt of any of the TH-350. =


[ Thanks to Steve Ochs for this information ] =






Dual Path Hydramatic



The way I understand it, Olds used a "Dual Path Hydramatic" (similar to t=
he Buick unit I would assume) from the early 1950s (forget exactly when) =
to 1956, when the first Jetaway was introduced. =


That was the "Dual Coupling Jetaway 4-speed Hydramatic". Thats right, a 4=
 speed auto! From the pics I have seen, it looks like it has 2 torque con=
verters in it (thus the dual coupling designation). Why it does, I'm not =
really sure. The first one had a run from 1956 to 1959, the second model =
ran from 1959 to 1960. Differences were minimal. =


In 1961 the "Three Speed Hydramatic" was adopted, with a scaled down vers=
ion used in the F-85. That tranny was used until 1963, when the 2 speed J=
etaway was adopted. This transmission is not related to the "slip-n-slide=
 Powerglide" though. =


According to my manual, three speed syncromesh manuals were available dur=
ing this whole time, although I've never actually seen one. I think they =
were the standard transmission on the various 88 models with the auto opt=
ion. The auto was standard on 98's If olds ever offered a 4 speed manual =
on any of it's mid 1950's to early 1960's cars, it would probably be extr=
emely rare. =




TH-400



Engines often come with the transmission attached. Suffice it to say that=
 the TH-400 as used in the 1967-72 442's is quite desirable. There will b=
e 6 bolts attaching the tail housing, vs. the 4 that a TH-350 uses. On th=
e RH side of the transmission, just above the pan, is an ID plate, about =
1/2" in size. Gently wash off the grunge and look for the ID code painted=
 on and stamped in as well. =


It'll be of the form "OA-##-1234" where the 1st letter tells the car make=
: O is for Oldsmobile, B is for Buick, P is for Pontiac, etc., and the se=
cond letter denotes the application. Generally speaking, the higher the l=
etter, the better. OA is commonly a long-tailshaft transmission used in b=
ig cars & wagons. OG is a common 442 code, OH for Hurst/Olds, and OW for =
W30 cars. Needless to say, grab any OH or OW transmission that is reasona=
bly priced for its condition. =


The ## numbers is the year of the car: 68=3D1968, etc. No mystery here. T=
he last 4 digits [1234 above] are the transmission unit number, not unlik=
e the engine unit number found on the oil fill tube of 68-up engines. =


Also, for 68 & up applications, the VIN derivative will be stamped into t=
he LH side of the transmission, between the two ribs and just above the p=
an. This will be the same number/letter combination that the engine recei=
ved- see engine ID above for particulars. =




Olds TH-400 ID's




ID     Year(s)  Application
- ---    -------  -----. No mystery here. The last 4 digits [1234 above] ar=
e the transmission unit number, not unlike the engine unit number found o=
n the oil fill tube of 68-up engines. =


Also, for 68 & up applications, the VIN derivative will be stamped into t=
he LH side of the transmission, between the two ribs and just above the p=
an. This will be the same number/letter combination that the engine recei=
ved- see engine ID above for particulars. =




Olds TH-400 ID's




ID     Year(s)  Application
- ---    -------  -----Here are the codes:
Olds 442/Hurst:         KZF **
Monte SS                CZF **
GN/T-Type/Turbo Regals: BRF **
Hurst's                 OZ  **
350 Olds Diesels        OM
307 Olds                OG
252 V6 Cars             BY
Cadillac's              AA & AP

Transmissions marked "**" have a special (better for performance) valve b=
ody, plate, 1-2
servo, 3-4 servo, 2-3 intermediate servo, and governor.





These codes can be found on the passenger side of the transmission near t=
he output shaft. Sometimes they are hard to read due to the cat being in =
the way. =


The valve body itself will have the first two letters painted on it. Be c=
areful because the paint comes off easily. The special valve bodies usual=
ly have a purple strip on them also. =


I highly recommend checking out the Buick Grand National web site at http=
://ni.umd.edu:80/gnttype/www and visiting their technical archives. In wh=
ich you'll find plenty of documentation on this tranny and plenty of reco=
mmendations and personal experiences with shift kits. =


[ Thanks to Scott, Chris Witt, Tom Millard, Tom Lentz for this informatio=
n ] =






Manual Transmission Identification









Automatic Transmission Comparision





The TH-700-R4 is now known as the TH-4L60-E. The TH-4T60-E is a FWD trann=
y. The TH-4T65-E is new for 1996 for the Hi-Po applications (Grand Prix G=
TP, Riviera S/C, Monte Carlo Z-34, etc). Unfortunately this will not help=
 the racers out. =


The TH-4L60-E (TH-700-R4) was improved again in 1996. Shift quality and d=
urability was enhanced. But the real choice for heavy duty racing is the =
TH-4L80-E or the TH-400. =


If you note, the engine torque rating for the TH-200-4R and the TH-700-R4=
 is very close in stock form. Considering the weight advantage, the gear =
ratio preference, deeper overdrive, and the fact that the TH-700-R4 only =
comes in Chevy bolt pattern, the TH-200-4R is preferable for most street =
applications when built properly. =


Here are some comparisons of ratings: =





                           |--------Maximum-------|
                           Engine  Gearbox  Gross    Torque      Overall
Transmission       Weight  Torque  Torque  Veh. Wt. Conv. Dia.   Length
   Model           (lbs.)  (lb/ft) (lb/ft)  (lbs)    (inches)    (inches)=

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
- --
Rear Wheel Drive:
- -----------------
THM 180C (3L30)   130/140    258     440     7716   9.6/10.24   26.29/28.=
11
4L30-E            168/177    258     440     7716   9.6/10.24   28.54/31.=
57
THM 200-4R          157      330     550     6000     11.73        28.26
THM 700-R4 (4L60) 167/184    350     650     8600   9.6/11.73   29.77/30.=
64
4L60-E            160/176    350     612     8600   9.6/11.73   29.77/30.=
64
THM-400 (3L80)      190      440     885    12000     12.20     29.30/34.=
48
4L80-E              260      440     885    15000     12.20     31.93/33.=
02

Front Wheel Drive:
- ------------------
THM 125C (3T40)     161      200     416     5100     9.64
THM 440-T4 (4T60)   195      235     369     5181     9.64
4T60-E              203      280     390     6400     9.64
4T65-E              214      285     400     6400   9.64/10.16
4T80-E              295      305     461     6800     10.43







Here are some common tranmission gear ratios: =





Transmission
   Model           First   Second   Third   Fourth   Reverse
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Rear Wheel Drive:
- -----------------
350                2.52    1.52     1.00     -----
400                2.48    1.48     1.00     -----
THM 180C (3L30)    2.400   1.479    1.000    -----    2.000
4L30-E             2.400   1.479    1.000    0.723    2.000
4L30-E Optional    2.860   1.620    1.000    0.723    2.000
THM 200-4R         2.741   1.568    1.000    0.674    2.067
THM 700-R4 (4L60)  3.059   1.625    1.000    0.696    2.294
4L60-E             3.059   1.625    1.000    0.696    2.294
THM 400 (3L80)     2.482   1.482    1.000    -----    2.077
4L80-E             2.482   1.482    1.000    0.750    2.077

Front Wheel Drive:
- ------------------
THM 125C (3T40)    2.840   1.600    1.000    -----    2.067
THM 440-T4 (4T60)  2.921   1.568    1.000    0.705    2.385
4T60-E             2.921   1.568    1.000    0.705    2.385
4T65-E             2.921   1.568    1.000    0.705    2.385
4T80-E             2.960   1.626    1.000    0.681    2.130







The difference between the transmissions is most likely the number of int=
ernal clutch plates. The main differences between models of the TH-4L60-E=
 are: 1) different case, bellhousing, and extension configurations, 2) va=
rying amounts of friction plates vs. steel plates in various clutch packs=
, 3) two different torque converter diameters. The 350 was the transmissi=
on of choice for drag racing up to about the late '70s as it was easy to =
build strong. The TH-400 and TH-350 use the same converter. The 350 was t=
he tranny of choice for drag racing because it has less internal mass and=
 weighs less initially. But, for the same reasons, it is not as strong. =


The Powerglide transmission has less parasitic loss. But, it should NOT b=
e used in a vehicle weighing more than about 3000 lbs. It's not strong en=
ough, even with HD (read that expen$ive) parts. =


I have a sneaky suspicion that that old Jetaway will always be a leaker. =
I replaced the pan gasket, the filler tube seal, and the tailshaft gasket=
, and checked all of the servo points for leaks - it still leaked. The fr=
ont seal to the torque converter wasn't leaking either. Just a shady gues=
s here, but does yours leak from the front passenger side corner? =

[ Thanks to Steve Ochs, Jack Wendel, others for this information ] =




Electrical and Mechanical Connections



The TH-350 has no electrical connections. The only 'wire' connection on a=
 TH-350 is for the back-up lights. Don't know about the TH-200 or TH-250.=
 There are no wire connections required for operation of the transmission=
=2E The TH-350C is a lockup version of the TH-350, and this electrical co=
nnection on the TH-350C, TH-200, TH-200-4R is for the TCC clutch, not the=
 backup lights. Backup light switch is either on the column or shifter as=
sembly. =


A late model TH-200-4R has 3 wires: 2 are used for the TCC solenoid, and =
the other is to signal the computer when 4th gear is engaged. The transmi=
ssion will function without the wires connected. However, running the TCC=
 disengaged on a TCC equipped transmission will lead to more transmission=
 heat buildup, hence reduced economy and longevity. This is probably more=
 of a concern on an overdrive tranny like the TH-200-4R, where there is a=
ctually a built-in overtemp switch which closes when the fluid reaches 26=
0F, and forces the torque converter to lock-up during 4th gear operation.=
 The lockup feature requires at most 2 wires. If the 3rd is for reverse l=
ight operation, you'd have to find an appropriate gear selector switch fo=
r the steering column to wire this in, if going from a 3-wire to a 2-wire=
 hookup. =


The electrical connection on the TH-400 is for the downshift solenoid. Un=
like other GM transmissions, the TH-400 does not use a downshift/T.V. cab=
le. =


The ECU is normally used to lock up the convertor in 4th gear electronica=
lly. You can do a little re-wiring and replace the pressure switch in the=
 transmission (from normally-closed to normally-opened) to make the conve=
rter lock up. Details are on the WWW page http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowl=
ing/jag2chevy.html =


A switch is installed internally in the 4th gear oil line. Only, and alwa=
ys, in 4th does it lock. One can wire a defeat switch on the dash, plus a=
 vacuum-operated switch for unlock at WOT. The parts for this application=
 are now common, and are even sold through Summit. =


[ Thanks to Bob Valentine, Kevin Wong for this information ] =




Durability

What probably kills the original TH-200-4R tranny is shift quality. The s=
tock pump and pump pressure is too low for hard shifts. Note: the 1986 an=
d prior TH-200-4Rs shifted fairly hard in stock form. The 1987 units were=
 recalibrated and have a soft 1-2 shift at WOT. Also, the stator support =
is not strong enough for hard shifts. =


The big killer is not the 1-2 shift, but the 2-3 shift. A real hard 2-3 s=
hift at full throttle will break some internals in the tranny. The goal i=
s a firm, quick shift but not a rapid, hard neck breaking shift. I modifi=
ed my TH-200-4R for a quicker 1-2 shift. It now shifts quick and firm (wi=
ll chirp both rear tires) but it is not a harsh shift. Note that high per=
formance rebuilt TH-200-4Rs have hardened stator supports and other featu=
res to ef$=92=D2B9=01=94=81=D1=A1=A5=CC=81=C1=C9=BD=89=B1=94=90=B6=7F=83=87=
=83=84=F2|=0C=00=0E|=00F|$@<=0Cp`@=00@=04=0E|=0C$p=04 =00=10  =10=00=04"|=
@@=0E|=0C$p =1C@N|d=12|L=10$=0E|p=04N|L@d$=10"|=10=06|=0C=1CB| =10 =0C@=02=
=06|=00=1Cp=0E|=00=00 =0E|<@=00<=0CB|=00=10 "|=00=1C@=06|=0C=1CB|=0C$p=04=
 =00=10  =10=00=06|=10"|$@d=00=10=0C=0E|=00&|b=02D=04@$=0C=00&|$@<=0Cp`@N=
=0E|=10"|=0C=1CB|=0C$p=04 BK=98D=92	
=C3=F8G=83c=C8=08=7F@"p=8C=E1O=C10=89=
=89a=03=06=E4X@=DE=E4@=C2=DC@=C2=EA=F0=D2=D8=D2=C2=E4=F2@=C6=DE=DE=D8=CA=E4=
\@=92=CC@=E8=D0=DE=E6=CA@=C2=E4=CA@=DC=DE=E8@=CC=D8=EA=E6=D0=CA=C8@=A8=90=
=9E=A4=9E=AA=8E=90=98=B2X@=E8=D0=CA@=C8=CA=C4=E4=D2=E6@=CC=E4=DE=DA@=E8=D0=
=CA@=E0=E4=CA=EC=D2=DE=EA=E6@=E8=E4=C2=DC=E6=DA=D2=E6=E6=D2=DE=DC@=CC=C2=D2=
=D8=EA=E4=CA@=EE=D2=D8=D8@=C8=CA=E6=E8=E4=DE=F2@=E8=D0=CA@=DC=CA=F0=E8@=E8=
=E4=C2=DC=E6=DA=D2=E6=E6=D2=DE=DC@=D2=DC@=E6=D0=DE=E4=E8@=DE=E4=C8=CA=E4\=
@=A8=D0=CA@=DA=C2=D4=DE=E4=D2=E8=F2@=DE=CC@=E8=D0=CA@=EE=C2=E4=E4=C2=DC=E8=
=F2@=E4=CA=E0=CA=C2=E8@=CC=C2=D2=D8=EA=E4=CA=E6@=EE=CA@=E6=CA=CA@=C2=E4=CA=
@=C6=C2=EA=E6=CA=C8@=C4=F2@=E4=CAZ=EA=E6=D2=DC=CE@=C2@=C6=DE=DC=EC=CA=E4=E8=
=CA=E4@=DE=E4@=D2=DA=E0=E4=DE=E0=CA=E4=D8=F2@=CC=D8=EA=E6=D0=D2=DC=CE@=E8=
=D0=CAA=E8
cooler. This is witnessed by a failure rate in dealer replaced transmissi=
on of 3 times the rate of factory installed tranmissions. The failure rat=
e is the same for both factory new transmissions and factory rebuilt tran=
smissions. =


A rebuilt TH-200-4R with the race hardened parts and a clean system, shou=
ld more than handle anything that you could do to the 307 including nitro=
us. =


[ Thanks to Steve Ochs for this informatiton ] =






Automatic Transmission Swapping



Jetaway and TH-350 Swap



The TH350 will bolt in, there are some changes to get used to though -- F=
irst gear will be one notch below "L". I have the console gear selector, =
and I can get the selector to put it in to 1st gear, the L position is 2n=
d gear, D is drive. I've been told I should be able to adjust it, but wit=
h my stock selector and linkage it isn't possible. There is a plate that =
controls where the selector is in park (it locks in a slot), reverse and =
what not, there simply is no room or adjustment for it go into 1st. =


If you ever want to get the tranny pan off the TH-350, the cross member w=
ill need to be clearanced around the back end of the oil pan -- if you no=
tice it's already tight around the back of the Jetaway. The rear crossmem=
ber obscures the rear pan bolts, so changing the filter/gasket requires u=
pbolting the crossmember from the tranny and the frame rails and sliding =
it back. If you try to do it without doing this it will take twice as lon=
g, trust me. Driveshaft will fit just fine, too. =


The TH-350 uses a detent cable (the Jetaway uses an electric downshift so=
lenoid), or kick down cable to inform the transmission of what the trottl=
e position is. Don't run without this! In the past I've used the mounting=
 bracket from a 1970 350 CID to mate it to the trottle linkage. I've also=
 fabricated my own mount bracket out of aluminum. I adjusted the detent c=
able so at WOT, the detent cable was fully extended. Leaving the detent c=
able off yields soft slooooow shifts at low rpm points (WOT 1-2nd shift a=
t 4000rpm), no 3rd-2nd passing gear kick down, and a HOT transmisson. Bas=
ically, without the detnet cable the transmission always thinks you are s=
hifting at 2000rpm. =


Other than those little things it's almost a weekend project. =


[ Thanks to Doug for this information ] =




TH-350 and TH-400 Swap



The TH-350 to or from TH-400 is a straight forward swap, you will have to=
 make sure you can relocate the cross member rearwards about 1 inch. Most=
 older cars have sets of bolt holes for this. The center rubber mount is =
different. =


Also, you will need to shorten the drive shaft. The dimension is 3/4". A =
driveline shop can do this, but be aware, if the car you are putting it i=
nto has a rubber dampened drive shaft, and you are dropping in a 455 and =
plan on having the car hooking up when you romp on it, replace the drive =
shaft with a 1 piece. Many people have twisted the stock driveshaft on a =
Cutlass. A new shaft will probably be around $150-200 depending on where =
you have it made. =


If your drive shaft has outside lock rings, as most TH350 shafts do, and =
your new TH-400 yoke has inside locks, Spicer does make a conversion u-jo=
int. It goes from the TH-400 (3R series) to TH350 (1310 Spicer series) pa=
rts number 5-3022X (about $20.00). =


The TH-350 and TH-400 use different yokes, one is fine and the other coar=
se (TH400 is larger in size). The rear U-joints are the same, and the bot=
h yokes use the same u-joint. =


Also, the TH-400 yokes are easy to come by! Just get one from a full size=
 Olds, etc. BUT BE CAREFUL! Yokes from a long shaft TH-400 (big car stuff=
) have a weep hole about 1/16" diameter in the back that must be plugged =
when utilizing a short shaft transmission. Otherwise you will have a stra=
nge leak when parked uphill! The U joint sizes matched up fine. =


The transmission cooler lines are the same shape, but longer on the TH400=
=2E =


The TH350 uses a kickdown cable, whereas kickdown on the TH400 is electro=
nic. The TH-400's switch is in the transmission and the accuator is conne=
cted to the gas pedal inside the car. =


Both TH-350 and TH-400 use the same torque converter. If you bought a hig=
h stall converter for one, you can drop it into the other with no modific=
ations. =


The original shifter should bolt right in. TH-350's and TH-400's have the=
 same amount of distance between shifts. =


As far as bolt patterns go, there are two basic types, Buick, Olds, Ponti=
ac, Cadillac, and everyone else (eg. Chevy). This is actually a blessing =
in disguise, as it makes the Chevy TH-400's more expensive (the only item=
) than the BOPC TH-400. The TH-400 also comes in two lengths, short shaft=
 (Chevy) and long shaft (everyone else). There are also uni-pattern (both=
) for automatics. Uni-pattern housings have been found in vehicles with l=
ocking converters. One thing you might want to do for the winter months i=
s pick up the book The Turbo 400 Transmission. =


[ Thanks to John Pajak, others for this information ] =




Overdrive Transmissions





TH-200-4R versus TH-700-R4 - Which one should I use behind an Olds



Most people believe that the TH-700-R4 is better tranny than the TH-200-4=
R. According to a recent Hot Rod Article "The Great Debate - TH-700-R4 vs=
=2E TH-200-4R - Which is the Better Overdrive", March 1995, "both can han=
dle 600 lbs-ft of torque and around 700 hp." Therefore, all you have to d=
o is pick the correct one for your Olds. TH-200-4R's have either a BOP be=
ll housing or a universal bell housing (BOP & Chevy). This makes it a dir=
ect bolt in for your Olds. =


It is the same length as a TH-350 and uses the same drive shaft, but has =
the mount for the cross member in the same location as a TH-400. As for t=
he TH-700-4R, it only has a Chevy bell housing [there is a rumor that som=
e BOP bell housings exist] so an adapter plate will have to be used. It i=
s also longer than a 400 by 2", so a custom length drive shaft will have =
to be made as well as the crossmember being relocated. Below is a chart w=
hich relates the lengths of the common tranny's to their tranny mount loc=
ations. =

TransmissionOverall Rear Trans Length Mount Position TH-350 27" 19.5" TH-=
400 28" 26.25H" TH-200-4R 27" 26" TH-700-R4 30" 21.25" =





TH-200-4R versus TH-700-R4 Gear Ratios



One important thing to look at while choosing an overdrive for your Olds =
is the gear ratios they have. The TH-700-R4 has a huge jump from 1st gear=
 to 2nd gear, which will hurt acceleration. The car will really launch in=
 1st gear but puke when it hits 2nd. I am not saying that you will be dis=
sapointed with a TH-700-R4, but if you drag race the car at all the the g=
ear ratios should be something to consider. As for the TH-200-4R, the gea=
r jumps are more evenly spaced out and it has a better overdrive ratio. S=
ee the chart above for common transmission gear ratios. =


[ Thanks to Tom Millard for this information ] =




TH-200-4R Swap



The swap is fundamentally a "bolt-in" (nothing needs cutting, drilling, o=
r welding). It can be performed "a la shade tree" for less than $500. A T=
H-200-4R will bolt up just fine, because it's the same bolt pattern and l=
ength as a TH-350 or TH-200 or TH-250. See chart above. Thankfully, older=
 Olds' have the frame drilled for just about any tranny imagineable. It D=
OES however use a TH-350 driveshaft yoke. Doing the reverse, swapping a T=
H-350 in place of a TH-200-4R is a direct swap. =


I can also tell you I've managed to keep the allegedly "weak" stock TH-20=
0-4R transmission alive in my 4400 pound car for going on eleven months a=
nd 14 thousand miles. An article in Hot Rod magazine said that the 200-4R=
, contrary to popular belief, can be built to handle about as much abuse =
as a TH-700-R4 - about 400 lb torqe. I think that's the max torque if the=
 car is running slicks. Keep in mind that the TH-200-4R cannot handle a l=
ot of torque in stock form. =




Background

To begin, the TH-200-4R is loosly based on the TH-200 metric with the add=
ition of an OD drum. Due to their relation to one another, the TH-200-4R =
has an undeserved reputation of being weak like its notorious sister TH-2=
00. Although the TH-200-4R will not hold up very well it its stock form, =
there are a few modifications that will increase its strength and dependa=
bility. =




Info Resource

Most if the information I have gathered is from Mike Kurtz at PMAC in Hou=
ston, TX. Most of the guys on the TR (Turbo Regal) Internet Mail List spe=
ak highly of him, and you can get a text file of TH-200-4R questions from=
 the TR Web page. =




Cores to Use

According to Mike, the most important thing in rebuilding a TH-200-4R is =
the core you use. 1986 and 1987 Turbo Regal (TR) transmission ack form, t=
here are a few modifications that will increase its strength and dependab=
ility. =




Info Resource

Most if the information I have gathered is from Mike Kurtz at PMAC in Hou=
ston, TX. Most of the guys on the TR (Turbo Regal) Internet Mail List spe=
ak highly of him, and you can get a text file of TH-200-4R questions from=
 the TR Web page. =




Cores to Use

According to Mike, the most important thing in rebuilding a TH-200-4R is =
the core you use. 1986 and 1987 Turbo Regal (TR) transmission ahave or ne=
ed, you have to look at the code (see listing above). This code can be fo=
und on the passenger side of the transmission near the driveshaft and is =
attached with one rivet. Sometimes these tags were installed backwards at=
 the factory, so it is possible that the code is facing the wrong way. Th=
e tag is a small piece of aluminum that will be either natural and yellow=
 or natural and blue, and will have the 2 or 3 letter code on it along wi=
th the serial number stamped on it. The serial number will also include t=
he 2 or 3 letter code mentioned above. This code is EXTREMELY important! =
Most people do not know that there is a difference between these transmis=
sions. I've had people tell me that a "TH-200-4R is a TH-200-4R", and tha=
t is wrong. =




Gotchas

The biggest problems you will run into with the TH-200-4R are the rear cr=
ossmember mount, the driveshaft, and the throttle cable. The TH-200-4R cr=
ossmember mount is the same location as a TH-400. =


The transmission is exactly the same legnth as a TH-350, it is one inch s=
horter than a TH-400. If a TH-200 is shorter than a TH-200-4R then you'll=
 need a longer driveshaft. The throttle cable on a 2004R must be located =
perfectly for the transmission to survive, and an adapter will probably b=
e neccesary to mount the throttle cable. A TH-350 kickdown cable can be u=
sed in place of the TH-200-4R cable if it makes adaptation any easier, an=
d there are universal throttle cable mount kits availible. =


The torque converter lockup can be controlled with a toggle switch. The g=
ear shifting is done completely by the valvebody in 88 and older(I think)=
 transmissions. Another problem you could run into is the final drive rat=
io. If the rearend ratio is something like 2.8 or 2.5 the TH-200-4R will =
give you too high a final drive ratio. For instance, a 2.75 rear end rati=
o and a .67 overdrive in the TH-200-4R will give you a final drive ratio =
of 1.8425. The rearend ratio may have to be changed. =


[ Thanks to Greg Pruett for this information ] =






Parts, Upgrades to Use

The codes marked with the ** are the ones with the better valve bodies. T=
he valve body itself will have the first two letters painted on it. Be ca=
reful because the paint comes off easily. The special valve bodies usuall=
y have a purple strip on them also. =


According to Mike Kurtz, he has never had any success with any other valv=
e bodies than the ones marked with asteriks above. Although the casting n=
umbers are the same, I am pretty sure that the bore sizes of the valves w=
ithin the valve body are different. This makes a big difference in the sh=
ift quality of the transmission. =


The governor in a TH-200-4R determines the WOT shift points while the loc=
ation of the TV cable determines the shift points at anything under WOT. =
The tranny's marked with an asterisk (*) above have special governors tha=
t will shift anywhere between 4800-5000 rpms at WOT, depending upon their=
 car model application. Stock governors on non-performance based cars shi=
ft at 3000 rpm at WOT. This is important because with the 3000 rpm type g=
overnor, the transmission will shift from 1-2-3-4 very rapidly which make=
s for poor acceleration at mild or light throttle. =


There are a few common upgrades that most reputable transmission builder =
installs in TH-200-4R's. These include a 10 vane pump, heat treated stato=
r, pressure regulator valve, and a shift kit. =


To replace the stock 7 vane pump, a 10 vane pump with heat treated vanes =
and steel rings is used. This reduces irradic pressure readings with the =
addition of the extra vanes while the very brittle cast iron ring is repl=
aced with a steel ring. (This brittle cast iron ring is a common weak poi=
nt in the TH-200-4R.) =


If you look at the stator in a stock TH-200-4R, you will probably observe=
 extreme wear marks on the splines. Art Carr claims that a worn stator wi=
ll cause premature failure on the thrust bearing in the engine. Therefore=
, most aftermarket companies sell a heat treated version to replace the w=
orn stock one. This has to be pressed into the pump, and costs around $70=
=2E =


To increase the line pressure and also reduce pressure fluctuations, the =
stock pressure regulator valve can be replaced with a 'performance' one. =
This costs around $20 and is available from Art Carr and Mike Kurtz @ PMA=
C. =


There are a couple of kits available on the market, but the one most of t=
he guys on the TR list recommend is the one from Mike Kurtz. His kit is m=
odified Trans GO kit that works very well. I have installed it on my tran=
smission and am very happy with it. B&M also makes a kit that works well,=
 but a few guys have had trouble with them. As for the Trans GO kit, they=
 strongly recommend you avoid this kit due to a missing parts, etc. One o=
f the newer kits from Trans Go has you drill the valve body itself which =
is bad news since you can never go back to where you started. Keep in min=
d that a new TR valve body from GM costs over $500 with a $250 core charg=
e. =




DISCLAIMER

I spent all summer playing with my TH-200-4R and spending alot of time ta=
lking to guys on the TR list as well as to other tranny builders. Sometim=
es these tranny's can cause some grief but really work well when the bugs=
 are ironed out. Please keep this in mind before tackling such a project.=
 =


[ Thanks to Tom Millard for this information ] =




TH-700-R4 Swap



There are a couple of things to keep in mind when searching for an overdr=
ive tranny, wheter it be an automatic or a standard. To mention a few, on=
e would be gear ratios while another would be practicallity. Also, The ea=
rly TH-700-R4 had a different spline count than the current ones, and suf=
fered in quality. =


As for the gear ratios, if you ever plan on racing the car (1/4 mile or w=
hatever), be leery of the TH-700-R4. Although 1st gear is extremely low, =
2nd gear is much higher, which really hurts acceleration. The car will re=
ally launch in 1st gear but when it hits 2nd it will puke. As for the gea=
r ratios for the 6 speed, I cannot quote the exact numbers, but I do know=
 that some of the gears are very close to one another, and therefore you =
can skip gears with no problems. =


As for praticallity, an adapter plate will have to be used for the TH-700=
- -R4. TH-700-R4's have Chevy bolt patterns so it will have to be converted=
 to a BOP. Rumor has it that some BOP bell housings were made. =


As mentioned earlier on the list, Hot Rod did an article on a 4L80E build=
 up, and since it is behind a 3.8 Buick V-6, it will work behind an Olds =
(maybe they ran an adapter plate as mentioned before). The only problem w=
ith this is that the transmission requires a computer, which is a little =
more than most people want to tackle, especially in older cars. The TH-4L=
80E is essentially a TH-400 with overdrive. =


Switch Pitch



TH400 transmissions between 1965 and 1967 used a dual stall speed torque =
converter known as the switch pitch torque converter. The Jetaway between=
 1964 and 1967 also came with the switch pitch torque converter, but had =
a higher stall speed. These torque converters can be interchanged (ie you=
 can put the Jetaway S/P converter on a TH400 and vice versa). =


The switch pitch TH-400 and TH-400 can be interchanged as well. Going to =
a switch pitch and using the dual stall speed capability requires a switc=
h pitch torque converter (sometimes discarded when s.p. TH-400 was rebuil=
t), and a means to activate the higher stall speed. The factory used a th=
rottle cable mounted switch with two wires running to the transmission. W=
hen idleing or at WOT, 12v were sent to the transmission solenoid which a=
ctivated the higher stall speed. This function can be duplicated with a d=
ash mounted switch. =


[ Thanks to Greg Pruett, Rod Rickenbach, Bob Valentine, Tom Millard, Mark=
 Price, Steve Ochs, David Nye for this information ] =






Automatic Transmission Tuning



In terms of adjusting the modulator, you can only raise or lower the shif=
t points 2 - 5 mph. Turning the screw clockwise will make it shift later =
and crisper. Turning counter-clockwise will make it shift earlier and sof=
ter. One full turn of the screw will change the modulator pressure by 2 -=
 3 psi. What it doesn't say is how many times you can or should turn the =
screw. I'd maybe try turning it clockwise one full turn and see what happ=
ens. =


[ Thanks to Blaine for this information ] =






Manual Transmission Swapping



Here are some common transmission gear ratios: =



   Model           First  Second  Third   Fourh  Fifth  Reverse  Final
Transmission
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Muncie (Wide)      2.52   1.88    1.47    1.00   -----
Muncie (Close)     2.20 say is how many times you can or should turn the =
screw. I'd maybe try turning it clockwise one full turn and see what happ=
ens. =


[ Thanks to Blaine for this information ] =






Manual Transmission Swapping



Here are some common transmission gear ratios: =



   Model           First  Second  Third   Fourh  Fifth  Reverse  Final
Transmission
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Muncie (Wide)      2.52   1.88    1.47    1.00   -----
Muncie (Close)     2.20lable. People have found them in the '79 Cutlass d=
iesels, some Cutlass Calais', Chevy Malibiu's, and Iraqi '81 V-6 Mailibu =
4-doors. =


In '81 GM Canada built a special order for the Govt. of Iraq. These were =
a couple of thousand '81 Malibu 4-doors. They were pretty strangely equip=
ped: bare-bones taxi interior, V-6, 3 speed manual transmission, somethin=
g like a 2.21 rear end, and A/C; desert specials. Anyway, the Iraquis can=
celled the order and GM was left holding these things. They eventually de=
cided to sell them through their dealer network at a special (i.e. cheap)=
 price to get rid of them. Some were converted to automatics at the deale=
rs to make them easier to sell, but most of them were sold as is. =


If you ask for an "Iraqibou" to anyone in the business up here they'll kn=
ow what you mean if they are on the ball. Might be worth a few phone call=
s to some of the bigger salvage operations in places like Toronto, Calgar=
y, or Vancouver if the clutch linkage is that elusive. Bet some NOS parts=
 might still be kicking around the dealer network up there too. =


5 Speed



As far as I know, the Getrag 5-speed used in various applications are the=
 same internally. The transmissions are made by New Venture Gear instead =
of GM Muncie. New Venture Gear is a joint venture between GM (Muncie tran=
smsission) and Chrysler (New Process Gear). The information I do have is =
that they are the same between models. A good choice would be a J-car wit=
h a 2.8/3.1l V-6, a W-car with a 2.8l V-6, an N-car with a Quad-4. These =
should all be built to the same torque and horsepower specs. Before the G=
etrag, GM used a Muncie 4-speed and an Isuzu 5-speed in these vehicles. =


Some information on the Getrag as of 1989: =



HM-282 (5TM40)
200 lb/ft maximum torque
88 lbs. dry weight
7000 RPM Maximum input speed





5TM40 Standard would be for J and N cars. 5TM40 Optional would probably b=
e W-cars due to larger tire size, and Quad-4 due to higher operating revs=
=2E Not known for sure. =


6 Speed



As for the 6 speed, aquiring the correct bell housing/clutch/hydraulic cl=
utch setup might create some problems. I'm sure parts can be fabricated, =
but you might run into some difficulty. =


[ Thanks to Tom Millard, Tony Waldner, Steve Ochs for this information ] =



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