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Subject:	oldsmobile-digest V1 #1734


oldsmobile-digest      Tuesday, January 26 1999      Volume 01 : Number 1734



who to trust
water inject.non olds
Re: Old car tires
Re: PCV in New Mickey Thompson Al Rocker Covers + More
Tires!
Re: Old car tires
Re: Confused parts clerks
Re: who to trust
Re: Address?????
Re: AXLE CODES
Re: Olds History Center procedures
Re: UNBOUNCE: Re: motor oil recommendations?
Re: who to trust
Re: motor oil recommendations?
Re: Need a solution to my Key problem
Re: Old car tires
Re: Water Injection was: 215 Turbo Info
Re: UNBOUNCE: Re: motor oil recommendations?
Neoprene Rear Main Seal:455
Test
Re: Address?????
Need suggestions for a personalized plate ('68 442 conv.)
Re: Need a solution to my Key problem
Re: Old car tires
Re: Water Injection was: 215 Turbo Info
Re: A & B,C Trailing Arms Swap!
Re: Neoprene Rear Main Seal:455
Re: Neoprene Rear Main Seal:455
Hurst Shifter Talk
(+) battery cable tube
'70 Exhaust Trumpets
One more Question Today / OAI & Intake Question
Re: Neoprene Rear Main Seal:455
Re: Hurst Shifter Talk
Re: '70 Exhaust Trumpets
Re: Water Injection was: 215 Turbo Info
Re: AXLE CODES
Re: Need suggestions for a personalized plate ('68 442 conv.)
The H*nd* *cc*rd lost!
RE: Need suggestions for a personalized plate ('68 442 conv.)
Re: Racing Sponsorship (Loooong!)
Re: Need suggestions for a personalized plate ('68 442 conv.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:45:38 -0700
From: "Larry Pegg" <nurelic@primenet.com>
Subject: who to trust

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When talking about the parts geniuses Greg said "no wonder I never let =
anyone work on my car".  This has recently become my mantra.  Unless I'm =
standing right there I'd rather walk than "trust someone with my =
classics.  Every time I Pay A Pro to do something I don't have tools or =
time to do I Get Burned.

I paid a reputable shop to install my new suspension parts because I =
didn't want to lay on my back with a breaker bar to loosen 30 year old =
bolts.  When I got my car back  days after it was suppose to be done, it =
squeaked.  Ok poly bushings do that right?  Wrong! in this case they =
didn't put any I mean None grease in the front end.  They installed the =
zerks wrong and didn't even install all the parts I paid them to. (I =
found them in the trunk). =20

This is just One of the (how many times do you have to be hit with a 2X4 =
to get the point) times I have been disappointed. =20

My wife now tells me to buy the tools and do it my self.  God bless =
her!!!


I feel better now :-)
LP

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<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>When talking about the parts geniuses Greg said =
&quot;no=20
wonder I never let anyone work on my car&quot;.&nbsp; This has recently =
become=20
my mantra.&nbsp; Unless I'm standing right there I'd rather walk than=20
&quot;trust someone with my classics.&nbsp; Every time I Pay A Pro to do =

something I don't have tools or time to do I Get Burned.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I paid a reputable shop to install my new suspension =
parts=20
because I didn't want to lay on my back with a breaker bar to loosen 30 =
year old=20
bolts.&nbsp; When I got my car back&nbsp; days after it was suppose to =
be done,=20
it squeaked.&nbsp; Ok poly bushings do that right?&nbsp; Wrong! in this =
case=20
they didn't put any I mean None grease in the front end.&nbsp; They =
installed=20
the zerks wrong and didn't even install all the parts I paid them to. (I =
found=20
them in the trunk).&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>This is just One of the (how many times do you have =
to be hit=20
with a 2X4 to get the point) times I have been disappointed.&nbsp; =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>My wife now tells me to buy the tools and do it my =
self.&nbsp;=20
God bless her!!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I feel better now :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>LP</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:57:37 -0700
From: "Larry Pegg" <nurelic@primenet.com>
Subject: water inject.non olds

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Someone ask about W.W.II planes and the water injection for emergencies. =
=20
I'm not sure about W.W.II but the F15 fighter has a V max switch the =
dumps extra fuel into the eng and over-rides the max allowed rpm of the =
turbines.  It is safety wired in the off position with light gauge =
copper wire so the pilots don't cheat and use it in peace time.  It =
requires the engines to be pulled and inspected after use.

LP

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<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Someone ask about W.W.II planes and the water =
injection for=20
emergencies.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I'm not sure about W.W.II but the F15 fighter has a =
V max=20
switch the dumps extra fuel into the eng and over-rides the max allowed =
rpm of=20
the turbines.&nbsp; It is safety wired in the off position with light =
gauge=20
copper wire so the pilots don't cheat and use it in peace time.&nbsp; It =

requires the engines to be pulled and inspected after use.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>LP</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:11:58 -0800 (PST)
From: John Pajak <jspajak@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Old car tires

Lou Biggs <lbiggs@intertek.net> wrote:
>
> John:
> Thought, 8.00 meant, 8 inches across the median of the tire, old days,
> middle was fatter than the tread. Do not believe the# 14 was a
factor at
> that time, other then rim size. Could be wrong again.

>>Right: The 8.00 in this case was the "section width", the WIDEST
part of the tire, usually halway between the rim and the tread. Same
is true today. The 215 in  PMetirc size is the section width in MM.

Take the 8.00 width, an 82 aspect ratio and a 14" rim diameter and
plug into the following formula:

(section width x aspect ratio x 2)+ rim diameter= overall height

(8.00 x .82 x 2)+14= 27.12" height

Incidentally this formula works for the P metric tires:

(section width in mmx .039 x aspect ratio x 2)+ rim diameter= overall
height

Lets try a P21575R14

(215 x .039 x .75 x 2)+14= 26.58" height

Still, if we only knew what E, F, G etc equated to in inches of
section width I'd be all set. Nobody seems to know this! Until then I
can't calculate the section width and overall diameter of a G70-14 for
instance!


==
"2 + 2 = 5 for sufficiently large values of 2"

John Pajak
Lexington Park, Maryland

Check out our cars, trucks and a whole lot more at
http://members.tripod.com/~JSPajak
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:18:09 -0500
From: "Edward Binnix" <comid@jellico.com>
Subject: Re: PCV in New Mickey Thompson Al Rocker Covers + More

I plugged your engine into a CFM calculating spreadsheet and came up with
752 CFM. That equates to a #3310 750 vacuum secondary carb in a heavy car
(full metal  '68-'72 Cutlass), a #4779 750 Double Pumper in a lighter car,
or a Q-jet in either. Most of the list members will scream Q-JET! As a rebel
and lover of Holley carburetors, I would go with the #3310 with some minor
tuning.
I have the Holley valve covers which are the same at the M/T. Just this
evening I cut out the breather holes. I'm using Moroso aluminum breathers in
both sides with no PCV at all. The cut outs in mine were semi-circular for
the factory grommets but these valve covers are relatively old. I believe
the newer ones have circular cut-outs. A 1" bimetal hole saw will cut the
hole easily and then you can place a grommet in the hole to fit most
breathers.

- -----Original Message-----

>Hey all,
> I've gotten a set of M/T's (new) for my 455.  I need one PCV hole
>right?  (I'm not sure if I'm going to use my free 850 Double Pumper or
not).
>
>1.   Does anyone happen to have the hole dimensions in the valve cover for
>this hole, approximately .750 diameter?
>
>2.  Would you suggest a Holley 850 DP for this 455 Balanced, Ported, 10:1,
>JM 22-25 Cam (Guessing from memory, bought 4 years ago Street/Strip),
roller
>tip rockers, S/S Valves, Dual Plane Manifold, 4 Speed, Additional Vacuum
>canister??
>
>4.  Do I need a hole in BOTH covers?  One for PCV & one for Breather?
>
>3.  Anyone know of any 'Decent' looking breathers for the valve covers?
The
>'Ededbrock' ones in summit look like CRAP!
>
>ANY HELP is appreciated!  This car WILL be together by summer and hopefully
>99 Nationals in Dallas!!!
>
>Steve Reed
>'70 4-4-2 'Ragtop
>Austin, TX
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:15:02 -0800 (PST)
From: John Pajak <jspajak@yahoo.com>
Subject: Tires!

Lou Biggs <lbiggs@intertek.net> wrote:
>
> John:
> Thought, 8.00 meant, 8 inches across the median of the tire, old days,
> middle was fatter than the tread. Do not believe the# 14 was a
factor at
> that time, other then rim size. Could be wrong again.

>>Right: The 8.00 in this case was the "section width", the WIDEST
part of the tire, usually halway between the rim and the tread. Same
is true today. The 215 in  PMetirc size is the section width in MM.

Take the 8.00 width, an 82 aspect ratio and a 14" rim diameter and
plug into the following formula:

(section width x aspect ratio x 2)+ rim diameter= overall height

(8.00 x .82 x 2)+14= 27.12" height

Incidentally this formula works for the P metric tires:

(section width in mmx .039 x aspect ratio x 2)+ rim diameter= overall
height

Lets try a P21575R14

(215 x .039 x .75 x 2)+14= 26.58" height

Still, if we only knew what E, F, G etc equated to in inches of
section width I'd be all set. Nobody seems to know this! Until then I
can't calculate the section width and overall diameter of a G70-14 for
instance!



==
"2 + 2 = 5 for sufficiently large values of 2"

John Pajak
Lexington Park, Maryland

Check out our cars, trucks and a whole lot more at
http://members.tripod.com/~JSPajak
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:21:55 -0800 (PST)
From: John Pajak <jspajak@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Old car tires

"Mike Rothe." <hurstolds@xtalwind.net> wrote:

<SNIP>Anyway, the "G" would correlate to 8.25" at the WIDEST spot of
the tire, usually across the middle of the sidewalls, but not
necessarily. Screwy, but it was how they measured them back then. Up
and down from
this usually was in .5" increments, such as an "H" was 8.75 and so
forth.

>AH HA ! Thanks so much. I've 'tired' myself out looking for this info
for ages! 

 
==
"2 + 2 = 5 for sufficiently large values of 2"

John Pajak
Lexington Park, Maryland

Check out our cars, trucks and a whole lot more at
http://members.tripod.com/~JSPajak
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:27:23 PST
From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg_o@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Confused parts clerks

> Customer asks for spark plugs for a 74 'Vette so my buddy,
> snickering goes in the back and brings out 4 plugs. 
> Customer asks "What's this?"  Buddy says "Spark plugs for
> a 1974 Chevette."
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
'course, you can also stump the clerks by _asking_ for plugs
for a '74 Chevette. Apparently your buddy is the only one in
the country who has any.  :-)

- -- Andy

P.S. Come to think of it, I dunno if there was a '74 Vauxhall
Chevette in Europe... anybody? The U.S. version started in
1976, right? (And mercifully had no Olds equivalent)

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:57:19 EST
From: DYeager535@aol.com
Subject: Re: who to trust

In a message dated 1/25/99 6:48:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,
nurelic@primenet.com writes:

<< When talking about the parts geniuses Greg said "no wonder I never let
anyone work on my car".  This has recently become my mantra.  Unless I'm
standing right there I'd rather walk than "trust someone with my classics.
Every time I Pay A Pro to do something I don't have tools or time to do I Get
Burned. >>

        You really have to make sure that you can trust who you have do the
work is what it comes down too. I have heard horror stories from people that
worked in machine shops about some of the practices where they
worked....taking other peoples motors that they were building and race them at
the strip a few times, using the same or used camshaft but charging for a new
one, etc. Something like that, how is the consumer to know? You can't. Sucks
that places will do things like this, but hey, when you find the right
shop/person, your set. Dorian

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:06:28 EST
From: KS7RACING@aol.com
Subject: Re: Address?????

Cliff/Del,

The address Cliff gives is the correct one, Mike just gets real busy and
sometimes doesn't get to respond to e-mail right away.  That's his address at
work, don't think he has a home 'puter address.

Take Care,
Ken Snyder
Kansas City, Kansas
KS7RACING@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:41:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Larry <kajrav@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: AXLE CODES

     The '81 service manual lists 8YW as a 2.73 limited slip on the
Custom Cruiser with cast-iron brake drums.  The Cutlass Cruiser has a
2.93 limited slip with an 8BW code, also cast-iron brake drums.  Hope
this helps. 

                                                Larry




- ---Michael L Johnson <mljohns2@crnotes.collins.rockwell.com> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> List,
> 
>      Recently I asked the list about a rearend I had found in the
salvage
> yard that was in a 1981 Cutlass Wagon that had been equipped with the
> towing package , so it had a limited slip rearend in it. 

> AXLE:  8YW
> 
> 
> Can anyone help to dicpher at least the axle code, The rest of the
codes
>       I'm just curious about.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks in Advance
> 
> 
> 
> M. Johnson
> 
> 
> 
> 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:54:14 -0500
From: "George & Joan C. Lesperance" <gal1@MNSi.Net>
Subject: Re: Olds History Center procedures

Hi Lou:  The best way to describe "Sable" is to have an old tarnished
peeny (very dark) then liquify it.  It's real neat to watch the liquid
sparkle and shine.  Our '69 442 W-30 is Sable and it has been described
from black to dark brown depending on the lighting.
                                                        Joan

Lou Biggs wrote:

> Or the color of a Sable coat, just kidding!
> Lou
>
> ----------
> > From: Mike Sealey <rocket98for69@hotmail.com>
> > To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
> > Subject: Re: Olds History Center procedures
> > Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 8:00 PM
> >
> > >BTW: what colour is "Sable" anyway?  Is that gold or brown?
> >
> > It's a dark metallic brown, about the shade of a mink coat.
> >
> > Mike Sealey
> > '69 Ninety Eight Holiday Sedan...
> > ...which still has its window sticker
> > describing its body color as "Sable"...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:13:13 EST
From: DYeager535@aol.com
Subject: Re: UNBOUNCE: Re: motor oil recommendations?

In a message dated 1/25/99 7:55:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,
ab348@chebucto.ns.ca writes:

<< The thing about the auto trans using petroleum jelly to hold all the=20
 balls in place is that ATF is something like 90% detergent which
 is why they are always so clean inside.  The detergent will quickly
 break down the vaseline where motor oil will not.
 
 Mike B >>

       Good point...most motor oils also contain detergent too now, right?
What kind of percentage do they run, know by any chance? Are there any motor
oils that tend to have more detergent that could help clean an engine out when
it's running? (yes, I have run transmission fluid in a motor before hehe)
Because now that I think about it, the lawnmower I have calls for non-
detergent 30W....hmm....Dorian

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:19:03 -0600
From: "Mike Bloomer" <mbloomer@gateway.net>
Subject: Re: who to trust

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Larry, =20
I am of the same mindset as you but there is also something else to=20
consider.  Namely that even a reputable shop that doesn't normally=20
work on classics or show cars isn't going to treat your car with any
more respect than any other car they work on, much less show as
much care with it as you would.  It's almost like asking a carpenter
to rewire your house because they are mainly concerned with making
money and likely the mechanic who is going to work on your car either
hasn't worked on your type of car before or at least hasn't done it in a =

while.  The more a mechanic does a job the quicker he is and the more
money he makes so the bottom line is that they likely aren't going to=20
make as much money on your car as they would a newer car they deal
with normally.  The sad thing is that for us to get our car worked on by
someone who would treat our car as we would you have to go to a=20
specialty shop and pay through the nose.  Many of my friends will tell=20
you that the best route to go is to have a mechanic friend to work on=20
your car.  I spend more time working on other peoples cars than mine
~but~ they always have to help.  I supply the tools and the know-how
and they supply the "go-pher".  I'm such a fanatic about not letting
anybody else work on my stuff that I won't even take in my new truck
to the dealer.

Mike B
mbloomer@midspring.com
ICQ# 19113713
http://members.tripod.com/CutlassFreak/

   =20
   =20
   =20
    When talking about the parts geniuses Greg said "no wonder I never =
let anyone work on my car".  This has recently become my mantra.  Unless =
I'm standing right there I'd rather walk than "trust someone with my =
classics.  Every time I Pay A Pro to do something I don't have tools or =
time to do I Get Burned.
   =20
    This is just One of the (how many times do you have to be hit with a =
2X4 to get the point) times I have been disappointed. =20
    =20
    My wife now tells me to buy the tools and do it my self.  God bless =
her!!!
    =20
    =20
    I feel better now :-)
    LP

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT size=3D3>Larry,&nbsp; =
</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT size=3D3></FONT><FONT size=3D3>I =
am of the same=20
mindset as you but there is also something else to </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT size=3D3>consider.&nbsp; Namely =
that even a=20
reputable shop that doesn't normally </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT size=3D3></FONT></FONT>work on =
classics or show=20
cars isn't going to treat your car with any</DIV>
<DIV>more respect than any other car they work on, much less show =
as</DIV>
<DIV>much care with it as you would.&nbsp; It's almost like asking a=20
carpenter</DIV>
<DIV>to rewire your house because they are mainly concerned with =
making</DIV>
<DIV>money and likely the mechanic who is going to work on your car =
either</DIV>
<DIV>hasn't worked on your type of car before or at least hasn't done it =
in a=20
</DIV>
<DIV>while.&nbsp; The more a mechanic does a job the quicker he is and =
the=20
more</DIV>
<DIV>money he makes so the bottom line is that they likely aren't going =
to=20
</DIV>
<DIV>make as much money on your car as they would a newer car they =
deal</DIV>
<DIV>with normally.&nbsp; The sad thing is that for us to get our car =
worked on=20
by</DIV>
<DIV>someone who would treat our car as we would you have to go to a =
</DIV>
<DIV>specialty shop and pay through the nose.&nbsp; Many of my friends =
will tell=20
</DIV>
<DIV>you that the best route to go is to have a mechanic friend to work =
on=20
</DIV>
<DIV>your car.&nbsp; I spend more time working on other peoples cars =
than=20
mine</DIV>
<DIV>~but~ they always have to help.&nbsp; I supply the tools and the=20
know-how</DIV>
<DIV>and they supply the &quot;go-pher&quot;.&nbsp; I'm such a fanatic =
about not=20
letting</DIV>
<DIV>anybody else work on my stuff that I won't even take in my new =
truck</DIV>
<DIV>to the dealer.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"" size=3D3>Mike B<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:mbloomer@midspring.com">mbloomer@midspring.com</A></FONT><=
/DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"" size=3D3><A=20
href=3D"mailto:mbloomer@gateway.net"></A>ICQ# 19113713<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://members.tripod.com/CutlassFreak/">http://members.tripod.co=
m/CutlassFreak/</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT =
size=3D3></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>When talking about the parts geniuses Greg said =
&quot;no=20
    wonder I never let anyone work on my car&quot;.&nbsp; This has =
recently=20
    become my mantra.&nbsp; Unless I'm standing right there I'd rather =
walk than=20
    &quot;trust someone with my classics.&nbsp; Every time I Pay A Pro =
to do=20
    something I don't have tools or time to do I Get =
Burned.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>This is just One of the (how many times do you =
have to be=20
    hit with a 2X4 to get the point) times I have been =
disappointed.&nbsp;=20
    </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>My wife now tells me to buy the tools and do it =
my=20
    self.&nbsp; God bless her!!!</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>I feel better now :-)</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>LP</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:27:32 -0600
From: "Mike Bloomer" <mbloomer@gateway.net>
Subject: Re: motor oil recommendations?

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Don't quote me on this but I seem to remember somewhere that the=20
max detergent level for motor oil was something like 10 to 20%.  The
ATF trick for flushing a motor is also a lot better for the motor than=20
some of the commercial engine flushes you can buy which are more
like kerosene. =20

Mike B
   =20
    << The thing about the auto trans using petroleum jelly to hold all =
the=20
    balls in place is that ATF is something like 90% detergent which
    is why they are always so clean inside.  The detergent will quickly
    break down the vaseline where motor oil will not.
   =20
    Mike B >>
   =20
           Good point...most motor oils also contain detergent too now, =
right?
    What kind of percentage do they run, know by any chance? Are there =
any motor
    oils that tend to have more detergent that could help clean an =
engine out when
    it's running? (yes, I have run transmission fluid in a motor before =
hehe)
    Because now that I think about it, the lawnmower I have calls for =
non-
    detergent 30W....hmm....Dorian

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<DIV>Don't quote me on this but I seem to remember somewhere that the =
</DIV>
<DIV>max detergent level for motor oil was something like 10 to =
20%.&nbsp;=20
The</DIV>
<DIV>ATF trick for flushing a motor is also a lot better for the motor =
than=20
</DIV>
<DIV>some of the commercial engine flushes you can buy which are =
more</DIV>
<DIV>like kerosene.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Mike B</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
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    The thing about the auto trans using petroleum jelly to hold all the =

</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">balls=20
    in place is that ATF is something like 90% detergent which<BR>is why =
they=20
    are always so clean inside.&nbsp; The detergent will =
quickly<BR>break down=20
    the vaseline where motor oil will not.<BR><BR>Mike B=20
    &gt;&gt;<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Good =
point...most motor=20
    oils also contain detergent too now, right?<BR>What kind of =
percentage do=20
    they run, know by any chance? Are there any motor<BR>oils that tend =
to have=20
    more detergent that could help clean an engine out when<BR>it's =
running?=20
    (yes, I have run transmission fluid in a motor before =
hehe)<BR>Because now=20
    that I think about it, the lawnmower I have calls for =
non-<BR>detergent=20
    30W....hmm....Dorian</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:53:03 GMT
From: Robert Barry <RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu>
Subject: Re: Need a solution to my Key problem

>Ok, so in the event that I buy The Unit, I find that it has come with
>two ignition keys and no door keys. How can I go about getting keys for
>the doors, especially if the original is gone? Would I need to go to a
>dealer and have them run the VIN or something? Please help me, I'd like

As others have noted, you can pull the cylinders to have a key cut. What
year is the "unit", anyway? Remember that the earlier cars (up to '72,
afaik) used the same key for the ignition and the doors, so if it's one of
those, you may already have the right key.

I actually like the door and ignition keys being the same; in fact, I wish
the trunk worked off the same key as well. Some day my dream is to key all
the cylinders of our cars and the truck alike, so I have one key that works
*everything*.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:07:24 GMT
From: Robert Barry <RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu>
Subject: Re: Old car tires

>What is the exact relation between the letter and number on the old
>bias ply tires as in a F70 or N70?  
>
>>>I'm looking for this same info. What exactly does the E, F, G mean
>in inches?  70 series, 78 series, I understand that. But without an
>inch equivalent to the letter sizes there is no way to calculate the
>original tire heights!
>>>P.S. I also was led to believe that the old tires like a 8.00-14
>were an 82 aspect ratio. 

I don't think that the letters directly correlate to size, but rather to the
load capacity of a tire, with "N" tires being able to carry more weight than
"F" tires and so on. Of course, to carry a larger load, you need a larger
tire, so the higher the letter, the larger the tire, generally speaking.

It was an advance over the number-only rating, since you could include
information on the aspect ratio's of the "low-profile" 70- and 60-series
tires that were introduced in the late 60's.

This system worked out ok while tire technology was somewhat static, since
everyone's tires that would carry a certain load were all about the same size.

For most hot-rodders, though, there were only a few sizes that were
seriously taken into consideration: F70's, G60's, L60's and N50's, which
generally corresponded to 6", 8", 10" and 12" wide tires, respectively.

Further, your choice of which tire was pretty much determined by your
intended application:

* If you wanted the road-racer look, and you wanted to keep the tires in the
wheelwells, you went with G60's all around.

* If you were into the drag-race look, you went with F70's (or E78's) in
front and you ran L60's in back, adding air-shocks if necessary (or N50's,
with air shocks or radiused wheelwells as a must).

* If you ran a bucket-T street rod, you used the front F70's (if you didn't
use cycle tires one wire spoke rims) and put N50's on the rear.

Boy, life was simpler then... :)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:07:21 GMT
From: Robert Barry <RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu>
Subject: Re: Water Injection was: 215 Turbo Info

>Some of the old WW!! aircraft had water injection which supposedly
>increased horsepower for emergencies, but the pilots were warned NOT to use
>it a lot as it hurt the engine, are you familiar with this? What and why?

That sounds more like the nitrous oxide injection that was an innovation in
WWII fighter planes; actually, I thought the Germans used that first.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 01:09:17 -0600
From: "Peter Landowski" <PETTRIX@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: UNBOUNCE: Re: motor oil recommendations?

It would be perfect if there was no dirt in a new motor but I would say
that it is almost impossible to have no dirt in a motor. You can get a
block and wash it with soap and water and then even clean it again with a
cleaner. There are creavices in a block that are very hard to get to, even
with a brush. When your putting a motor together there is dust in the air
and there is no way to keep that from landing in the motor. What I am
trying to get at is that dirt, as small and insignificant as it may be,
will land inside the motor. I cleaned my block with soap and water even
when it was hot tanked. The block was dirty after hot tanking so I washed
and scrubbed the cylinder walls with a nylon brush. Trying to get into the
cam bearing galleries is a knuckle buster. Even then you can't get to it. 

I would definately change the oil after initial cam break in. That extra
$20.00 for oil and a filter is definately worth it. Whenever I see the oil
after a motor break in it is dark and feels gritty. I wouldn't want that
stuff flowing through my motor for another 500 miles.
Pettrix@prodigy.net

- ----------
> Peter's way of doing it is bordering on the side of overcaution but
> there's nothing wrong with that.  There should be NO dirt in a freshly
> rebuilt motor, though there may be some shavings but that shouldn't
> be there either if the rebuild was done correctly.  /

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 01:17:59 -0600
From: "Peter Landowski" <PETTRIX@prodigy.net>
Subject: Neoprene Rear Main Seal:455

I was just curious to those with 455s that used the 2 piece neoprene rear
main seal. Mondello calls for it to be staggered when put it. I know people
who didn't stagger them and they had no leaks. Is it better to stagger it
or just put it in normally?

Pettrix@prodigy.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:00:19 -0600
From: "mbloomer@mindspring.com" <mbloomer@minspring.com>
Subject: Test

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Please ignore, sorry Greg for the bouncing.

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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000>Please ignore, sorry Greg for the=20
bouncing.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:44:05 -0500
From: "Ken Swick" <swickka@pa.net>
Subject: Re: Address?????

Dale :

If you had paint job done by Maaco ... your impression
and suggestion might be helpful to the list.

I am looking for good, not excellent paint on 
my daily driver ... 81 Cutlass Supreme.

Thanks
Ken Swick
swickka@pa.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:58:51 -0500 (EST)
From: "C. Casteel" <earthsci@POP.usit.net>
Subject: Need suggestions for a personalized plate ('68 442 conv.)

Well, it's now time to renew the license plate for the '68 442 conv. Since I
can actually drive it now, I thought it'd be nice to order a personalized
plate. 

Anyone have any good suggestions for this car? BTW, it's triple black and
now has a 455.

TIA.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:30:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Rock Man <rockman20@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Need a solution to my Key problem

Matt,

I kind of had the same problem with my Olds. The key that he had for
the doors would not work in the trunk. (side note....getting in a
locked trunk SUCKS!!!) I finally got the trunk open and I took the
whole lock assembly to a local locksmith. They did what they call
'keying the lock'. They measure all the tumblers inside and they make
a key to work in there. Fairly cheap. I just couldn't afford (at the
time) to have all the tumblers changed. I am going to do that soon so
that I don't have to have a key for the trunk, one for the doors, and
one for the ignition!

Del




- ---Matt Cremean <creme1ma@cmich.edu> wrote:
>
> Ok, so in the event that I buy The Unit, I find that it has come with
> two ignition keys and no door keys. How can I go about getting keys
for
> the doors, especially if the original is gone? Would I need to go to a
> dealer and have them run the VIN or something? Please help me, I'd
like
> to be able to lock and unlock the doors!
> -- 
> |============|
> Matt Cremean
> mailto:creme1ma@cmich.edu
> |=========================|
> '73 Cutlass Supreme
> '70 Cutlass 'S'
> '75 Cutlass 'S'
> http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/3973/
> |=================================================|
> 

==
Rock-Man's Page http://www.angelfire.com/nd/RockMan
rockman20@yahoo.com
1986 Honda Accord DX
1983 Honda Big Red 3-wheeler
1981 John Deer Snowmobile
197? Massey Ferguson Snowmobile
1969 Olds Cutlass "S"
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:33:26 -0500
From: Padavano.Joe@Orbital.COM
Subject: Re: Old car tires

Some additional thoughts on the tire size thread...

In the old F70-14 style nomenclature, I'm pretty sure the letter relates to
size, not load rating.  I say this because the letter-designated load
rating system is still in effect, and unless we're talking about tires for
18 wheelers, the letters don't go up to the L and N range we've been
talking about.  For example, the truck tires available for my crewcab
dually (which follow the conventional 235-85/16 nomenclature) come in load
ranges D and E, and these load ranges are irrespective of tire size; they
bear more relationship to tire construction, number of plies, and heat
resistance.  On the other hand, a G70-14 is always wider and larger in
diameter than an F70-14, which is in turn a larger tire than a D70-14.
(Note also that this load range letter is not to be confused with the
government-mandated A-B-C rating on heat resistance which is molded into
the sidewall of new tires)

Also, just to be clear, the 235, 245, etc. nomenclature on today's tires is
a measure of maximum _section_ width, not tread width.  In the BFG catalog,
for example, different models of tire with the same size (say, 235-60/15,
for example) will have tread widths which can vary by half an inch or more
(even when mounted on the same size rim).  I suspect that it is especially
difficult to definitively measure these dimensions, as unlike the old
bias-ply tires, which had a very sharp corner on the shoulder, radials have
a rounded shoulder, so "tread width" is somewhat subjective.  In addition,
the rim width obviously has an effect on both the max section width and
tread width, so the BFG catalog specifies the rim size used to get the
measurements listed.

Joe Padavano
padavano.joe@orbital.com

66 442
68 W-30
69 H/O
69 442
70 W-30

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:34:53 -0500
From: Padavano.Joe@Orbital.COM
Subject: Re: Water Injection was: 215 Turbo Info

>Some of the old WW!! aircraft had water injection which supposedly
>increased horsepower for emergencies, but the pilots were warned NOT to
use
>it a lot as it hurt the engine, are you familiar with this? What and why?

That sounds more like the nitrous oxide injection that was an innovation in
WWII fighter planes; actually, I thought the Germans used that first.
_________

Actually, you're both right.  Both water injection and nitrous oxide
injection were used in WWII fighter planes.

Joe Padavano
padavano.joe@orbital.com

66 442
68 W-30
69 H/O
69 442
70 W-30

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:45:19 -0500
From: Padavano.Joe@Orbital.COM
Subject: Re: A & B,C Trailing Arms Swap!

Yes. A body trailing arms both the upper (inner) and lower (outer) swap
into
the 1966 big cars.
__________

Chris,

Very cool.  A couple of questions, however.  I assume you compared the
A-body and full-size arms to verify their similarity prior to installation.
Obviously, since the rear suspension has many degrees of freedom, arms
which are slightly different in length could still be installed
successfully, however the pinion angle would likely be incorrect, leading
to premature u-joint wear and possibly excessive driveline vibration.
Also, which year A-body parts did you use, the 64-67 or 68-72?  They are
slightly different.

Joe Padavano
padavano.joe@orbital.com

66 442
68 W-30
69 H/O
69 442
70 W-30

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:49:26 EST
From: W30442CS@aol.com
Subject: Re: Neoprene Rear Main Seal:455

In a message dated 99-01-26 02:07:28 EST, you write:

>
>I was just curious to those with 455s that used the 2 piece neoprene rear
>main seal. Mondello calls for it to be staggered when put it. I know people
>who didn't stagger them and they had no leaks. Is it better to stagger it
>or just put it in normally?
>
>Pettrix@prodigy.net
>
>

well, i have done it both ways and had no problems.  knock on wood!  my first
one i installed was back in 82 and it is still holding strong. i did not
stagger it because at the time i did not know i was suppose to.  but since
then i have always staggered them. :-)        steven, w30442cs@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:53:42 -0500
From: Padavano.Joe@Orbital.COM
Subject: Re: Neoprene Rear Main Seal:455

I was just curious to those with 455s that used the 2 piece neoprene rear
main seal. Mondello calls for it to be staggered when put it. I know people
who didn't stagger them and they had no leaks. Is it better to stagger it
or just put it in normally?
___________

The neoprene seal is designed to simply be installed parallel to the mating
surfaces of the block and cap so that when the motor is being put together
on the assembly line the crank can simply be dropped into place and the cap
bolted on.  As a result, it will obviously work if installed "straight up".
Some seepage of oil is unavoidable in any seal application, however the
recommendation to stagger the seal will help minimize this seepage by
eliminating what could become a direct leak path past the main cap/block
and the seal parting line.  The bottom line is that this is one of those
"extra mile" things you do when hand-assembling an engine that aren't
usually feasible on a production line.

Joe Padavano
padavano.joe@orbital.com

66 442
68 W-30
69 H/O
69 442
70 W-30

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 07:04:48 -0800
From: "Reed, Stephen" <sreed@chatsworth.com>
Subject: Hurst Shifter Talk

Hey all,
	I'm going to get my "V-Gate" (Inline) 4 speed shifter rebuilt.  It
used to rattle like CRAZY when I had the car on the road.  I know they make
nylon bushings for the linkage and what not.  I'd like to know if anyone has
had this done.  I had my original '70 shifter rebuilt by Mr. Gasket (Bought
Hurst co.) and it seemed great, but I only used it to back the car out of
the garage in NY and onto the moving truck to Texas.  I really prefer the
v-gate shifter, over the std configuration

If you have had this done with replacing the bushings did you use rubber or
nylon?  Did it quiet down the linkage a bit?  That was the most annoying
part of the ride in my car.

Steve Reed
'70 4-4-2 'Ragtop
Austin, TX

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 07:07:12 -0800
From: "Reed, Stephen" <sreed@chatsworth.com>
Subject: (+) battery cable tube

To:  All + Greg Rollin  @  supercars@transport.com

Does anyone manufacture the (+) battery cable tube that runs up the back of
the engine from the starter?  I have tried to find a few in the junkyards
and haven't had any luck.  Most were quite deteriorated.

Thanks

Steve Reed
'70 4-4-2 'Ragtop
Austin, TX

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 07:10:21 -0800
From: "Reed, Stephen" <sreed@chatsworth.com>
Subject: '70 Exhaust Trumpets

I'm going to be needing the Exhaust tailpipe trumpets soon.  (I'm trying
like he!! to get the car ready for the 99 Dallas meet!!)  I currently have
2.5" Header pipes, to mufflers W 2.25" out of the muffler.  From what I
understand the Trumpets are ONLY available in 1.875 ID.  Are there any other
manufacturers for these?

What else have people done?  I'm sure the Chrome would flake off if I tried
to expand the ID on the trumpets to accommodate the tail pipes.

Any help is appreciated!!

Steve Reed
'70 4-4-2 'Ragtop
Austin, TX

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 07:13:37 -0800
From: "Reed, Stephen" <sreed@chatsworth.com>
Subject: One more Question Today / OAI & Intake Question

Will an original OAI setup fit properly with an Edelbrock Dual Plane
manifold.  With either a Holly or a Quadrajet carb (It's undecided at this
point in time as to which to go with)

Thanx!!

Steve Reed
'70 4-4-2 'Ragtop
Austin, TX

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:23:33 EST
From: Stakin@aol.com
Subject: Re: Neoprene Rear Main Seal:455

I personally like to stagger them. Its another one of the "little" things to
help ensure a good job. That and always putting oil on the seal lip and a real
thin coat of sealant on the main cap where it meets the block. 

Joe Stackman

<< I was just curious to those with 455s that used the 2 piece neoprene rear
 main seal. Mondello calls for it to be staggered when put it. I know people
 who didn't stagger them and they had no leaks. Is it better to stagger it
 or just put it in normally?
 
 Pettrix@prodigy.net >>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:31:01 -0500
From: David L Wyatt <WYATT_DAVID_L@LILLY.COM>
Subject: Re: Hurst Shifter Talk

>If you have had this done with replacing the bushings did you use rubber or
>nylon?  Did it quiet down the linkage a bit?  That was the most annoying
>part of the ride in my car.

FWIW, I have a Competition Plus in my car and have used two different V-Gate
shifters in the past in other vehicles.  I never use anything except the steel
bushings, as the others wear too quickly and cause the shifting to become
sloppy.  I have never really paid much attention to noise from the linkage
because I have never noticed it to begin with.  Are you sure you don't have
some other problems causing vibration in the shifter?  If you are using the
Hurst clips to attach the rods, everything should be nice and snug.

Dave Wyatt
70  4-4-2

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:36:51 -0500
From: David L Wyatt <WYATT_DAVID_L@LILLY.COM>
Subject: Re: '70 Exhaust Trumpets

I had the trumpets wire welded to the ends of my 2.25 pipes.  The diameter is
the same.  Not the greatest solution, but it worked on my 15 year old
trumpets.  Just butt them together and weld away after careful positioning.
This was done two years ago this coming spring and so far it still looks OK.
The trumpets came from NAPA in 1984.

Dave Wyatt
70  4-4-2

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:48:35 -0600
From: "Lou Biggs" <lbiggs@intertek.net>
Subject: Re: Water Injection was: 215 Turbo Info

Joe, 
Was that a water and alky mix? What did it hurt in the engines, and why? I
really don't know.
Lou

- ----------
> From: Padavano.Joe@Orbital.COM
> To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
> Subject: Re: Water Injection was: 215 Turbo Info
> Actually, you're both right.  Both water injection and nitrous oxide
> injection were used in WWII fighter planes.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:06:47 -0600
From: "Michael L Johnson" <mljohns2@crnotes.collins.rockwell.com>
Subject: Re: AXLE CODES

On what rear ends was the aluminum brake drums a option. My brother and I
found a set of aluminum brake drums in the same salvage yard that I found
the posi rearend. These brake drums were off a 1979 Monte Carlo. They were
in pretty decent shape when we gave them the once over at the salvage yard
but further inspection at home revealed that the steel liners in one of the
brake drums were cracked. Now we have to see if it can be relined. Does
anyone have any experience doing this?

This yard that we found in northern Iowa has loads of old G-Bodies. In
fact, I don't think that they have any thing newer then 1986 there. And a
lot of it is still in tact. It is mostly Oldsmobile and Chevy, not to many
Pontiacs. There are a couple Pontiac  G-bodies out there with complete
bucket seat/ floor console interior. One even has a factory power moon roof
with the tinted glass in it. There is also two 1980 Cutlass Calais's , one
is maroon/ w maroon interior and the other is white w/ gold cloth interior.
They both have the sport interior (buckets/floor shift/rally gauges). The
one with the gold interior is fully loaded with power everything including
power bucket seat and moon roof. They both have the Calais/442 front header
panel with both bumpers in good condition. They also had what I believe to
be a 1980 Monte Carlo with a four speed set up in it. It all looked factory
to me. I already have a correct Oldsmobile bell housing for a standard
shift tranny that came with a Saginaw 3 speed but I would really like to
have a four speed, I also need all the pedal assemblies and linkages and
interior pieces to complete this job (to convert from auto to standard
shift), it looks like this Monte Carlo has the necessary equipment in it to
complete my project so I might be selling the 3-speed if anyone is
interested. If anyone is interested in the parts that are in the yard email
me back and I'll see what I can do.

Thanks,

Mike Johnson



Please respond to oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca

To:   oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
cc:
Subject:  Re: AXLE CODES





     The '81 service manual lists 8YW as a 2.73 limited slip on the
Custom Cruiser with cast-iron brake drums.  The Cutlass Cruiser has a
2.93 limited slip with an 8BW code, also cast-iron brake drums.  Hope
this helps.

                                                Larry






> AXLE:  8YW
>
>
> Can anyone help to dicpher at least the axle code, The rest of the
codes

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:45:56 PST
From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg_o@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Need suggestions for a personalized plate ('68 442 conv.)

> Well, it's now time to renew the license plate for the '68 442
> conv. Since I can actually drive it now, I thought it'd be nice
> to order a personalized plate. 
>
> Anyone have any good suggestions for this car? BTW, it's triple
> black and now has a 455.

This is one of those threads that tends to go on forever,  :-)
but just for the record, what's the maximum number of letters
you can have on the plates in your state? (Which state?)

If you can pick numbers as well, can they go _before_ the letters,
_after_ the letters, or _anywhere_ within the letters?

- -- Andy

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:43:52 -0600 (CST)
From: George <cutlass@one.camd.lsu.edu>
Subject: The H*nd* *cc*rd lost!

Hi Guys, 

Sorry for beein non olds but I need some input on the old and sometimes 
olds subject "what happens if you get hit in your classic".

Yesterday I hit a H*nd* *cc*rd with my 77 L*nc*ln C*nt*n*n*l. It was the 
opponents fault. He will need a new rear end and some doors plus rear 
quater... well that was satisfying to see the piece of Japanese Tin loose 
against a big piece of 70ies Detroit Iron, BUT:

How is this handeled by insurance? My L*nc*ln is a # 2-3 dayly driver and 
was in immaculate shape before the hit. 
Well, I will need the bumper bent back an inch and the plastic liner on 
the bumper new. I also will need to get rid of a small dent in the 
Fender, get a new chrome liner on the Fender, plus get the fender bondoed 
and repainted. 

How will the opponents insurance handle this??? 
Will they give me a check and I care for the repair? Will they send me to 
a body shop and let them do the work? The car is worth approx. 3k, so I 
wonder if they will total it, what happens then? Please write me about 
your experiences / problems, and how you solved them!

Thanks for the input!
George

- --------------------------------------------------------------
'68 Cuttlass S Conv. 
http://estimator.camd.lsu.edu/georg/sparetime/olds.html
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:56:45 -0500
From: "Semantana Chris (ONEX)" <SemantanaC@tce.com>
Subject: RE: Need suggestions for a personalized plate ('68 442 conv.)

> > Well, it's now time to renew the license plate for the '68 442
> > conv. Since I can actually drive it now, I thought it'd be nice
> > to order a personalized plate. 
> >
> > Anyone have any good suggestions for this car? BTW, it's triple
> > black and now has a 455.
> 
> 
forforto (or if it's too long) forfor2
4 4 2
68 rgtp
bcnya


Chris Smetana
Terre Haute, IN
http://www.abcs.com/chris/

1969 W-31 in April it gets "1969 W31"
1969 4-4-2 parts car
plus others

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:18:39 EST
From: KS7RACING@aol.com
Subject: Re: Racing Sponsorship (Loooong!)

Gary (and any other interested parties):

I've got two words for you -- good luck.  You'll need it, despite the ever-
increasing interest in auto racing, sponsorship of local-type racing is still
hard to find.  I was planning on running a full schedule last year, had what I
was told was a killer marketing package together, sent out some "feelers",
looking to see if there was some interest in our NASCAR Winston ShorTrack
Series car, and got back zilch.  We're trying again this year, with an even
better plan than we had last year, but if the funds don't materialize we'll
have to wait until my personal finances will bankroll the entire operation --
again.  And with the anticipated move to a new house and defending our
(Chelsea's and mine) SCCA Solo II titles, that might be a ways off.

But the only way to find out if there's interest is to try, so here's what
I've been told:

1) Figure Out What It Will Take To Pursue Your Season's Goals.
Are you out to win a track championship, a regional title, national events, or
just have a successful year and enjoy competition?  Calculate up how many
events you'll be running and the fixed costs associated with them, such as
admission, membership dues, traveling to and from the events, meals and
lodging, if they're out-of-town events.  Try to figure out the required amount
of maintenance-related expenses, such as tires, fuel, oil, etc., for the
entire season.  After you've figured out how much you'll need to pursue the
entire season, divide this grand total by the actual number of events, and
this is what your goal should be per event.  Save this number, we'll use it
later.

2) Calculate Square Footage.
Look at your car as if it were a billboard.  Try to calculate up the available
area to put sponsor's advertising on the car -- not including what you want to
use for self-promotion.  Figure this up in square feet, it works easier.

3) Cost Per Square Foot And Per Event/Season.
Now take the number you figured up earlier and divide it by the available
square feet and this tells you what you need to get per square foot to
accomplish your stated goal per event.  Multiply by the number of events and
this should be the minimum you ask for one square foot for the entire season.
For Grace, we have a sliding scale that rewards advertisers for purchasing
more square feet by making each square foot cheaper as they buy more of them.
We start out with $200.00 for one square foot for the season and go up to
$1100.00 for ten square feet for the season.  The cost per square foot per
event drops from $10.00 for one foot down to $5.50 when they buy 10, with
several steps in between.  And there's also payment options that break down
the amount into smaller amounts as they buy more footage.

4) Demographics.
You need to determine the type of people that attend the events you want to
participate in, and gear the companies you approach to that audience.  For
instance, if you were going to make the Dick Miller Olds event the only place
you were going to race the car at and thus the only event you'd want
sponsorship at, it wouldn't make any sense to try to sell advertising space on
the car to a Ford dealership.  Just like Tiffany crystal probably will never
be seen advertising at a monster truck event (but you never know, Lovable Bras
was a sponsor on a NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series truck, good thing the driver
was a woman!) or The Nashville Network on a Formula 1 car.  NASCAR provides a
demographics chart that I use in my proposals that lists the age, sex,
education level, income, and distance traveled to Winston Racing
Series/Winston ShorTrack Series events.  If this isn't available, a little
research on your feet at an event should be able to yield some information.
Don't forget to mention audience, they like to know approximately how many
people will see you race.  Be sure to mention the fact that most people who
attend races do frequent the sponsors at the track and on the cars.

5) Spend Money.
Make the proposal as nice as possible, get color photos and quality printed
pages.  Put it all in a nice binder with a personalized note to the individual
you're asking.  Make the first thing they see a really nice picture of the
car.

6) GO!
Don't just drop the proposal in the mail and hope something comes of it (been
there, done that, got nowhere), make an appointment to see someone in charge
of advertising or marketing, and if at all possible, TAKE THE CAR.  This gives
them a chance to actually see what you're selling them space on, and the car
is a powerful tool -- use it!  This was suggested to me from the marketing
director at Lakeside Speedway, and he has a degree in Marketing so I figure he
knows what he's talking about.

Now notice I didn't say a thing about stuff like car shows, parades, and other
displays.  Use these as "free" areas to promote your potential sponsors, let
them know these are offered at no charge for supporting your racing efforts.
Same with souvenirs, whether they're free or something people buy -- more
places to expose your sponsors.  The Internet is another place that will be a
benefit, if they have a web page, you can link visitors directly to their web
pages from yours.

If you want to see what we have in place, stop by our web pages and look for
the Sponsors icon on the navigation map and also the Advertise With Us icon,
they'll take you right to the place we set up for those purposes.

Hope this helps you out, Take Care!

Ken Snyder
Kansas City, Kansas
KS7RACING@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/ks7racing/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:27:14 -0700
From: Cliff Simpson <csimpson@ucalgary.ca>
Subject: Re: Need suggestions for a personalized plate ('68 442 conv.)

Well, you could get "68 Rag" but some might find that has negative vibes:) 
Since the 455 is not stock I would skip any reference to it.  There nothing
wrong with it by why advertise that it's a 455?  Let people assume it's a 400
until you kick their butt (on the strip).

Olds442, 68 442, 442VERT, 442FAST4U (too many), 442QK4U, Lots of things you can
do along that line.  Or since it's triple black and episode I is coming out how
about DVADERS?  Nah.

Does anyone have a list of what's already used by Olds owners?

"C. Casteel" wrote:
> 
> Well, it's now time to renew the license plate for the '68 442 conv. Since I
> can actually drive it now, I thought it'd be nice to order a personalized
> plate.
> 
> Anyone have any good suggestions for this car? BTW, it's triple black and
> now has a 455.
> 
> TIA.
- -- 

Cliff Simpson
csimpson@ucalgary.ca
'69 442/400/th400/3.31p (Kermit) (soon to be a 455 :)
http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~csimpson/TheOldsZone.html

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End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #1734
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