
oldsmobile-digest           Monday, 8 July 1996        Volume 01 : Number 225


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 22:10:58 -0300
Subject: Re: Rear speaker..  

In a message dated 96-07-05 21:33:42 EDT, you write:

<<  And don't buy into 
 that garbage about underpowering speakers and how you MUST have a huge 
 power amp (spelled $$$$).  >>
 Mike:

Sure been there, done that.  Louder does not mean better, for sure.  We own
two Jeep Cherokees (the '87 is almost GM it has so many GM pieces).  I have a
$$ Pioneer system in the '87 including supposedly "matched" Pioneer speakers.
 Not bad.  It is the version for "trucks" by the way.

What really surprised me is the factory system in the '90.  Radio/tape deck
says made in Korea but it came with Jensen speakers.  It sounds GREAT. I'll
bet this system was designed for the car as opposed to buy it, install it and
take what it gives you.

The speaker wires for the factory system are thin as hair compared to the
_cables_ they try to sell in the stores.  Those things look like I could
connect the house heat pump through them.  Therefore I suspect that speakers
seldom, if ever in home/auto use, need such large conductors.

Right?

Bob

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 22:09:54 -0300
Subject: Re: Hi Torque Starter 

In a message dated 96-07-06 17:20:43 EDT, you write:

<< Oddly, the Mondello high torque starter is the cheapest one I've seen for 
 olds.  Most run well over 200 bucks but the one in the Mondello catalog 
 is only 150.  Anyone else find a cheap one?
  >>

Hi Paul:

What is the advantage of these expensive "high torque" starters if one is
having no starter problems?  From what I have seen and read about them, they
are actually small electric motors using a reduction gear drive.  I thought
they were a "race" item intended to reduce weight a few ounces.

Other than that, what do they have to offer?

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: jrjet@whidbey.net (Dot & Tim McChesney)
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 22:39:59 -0300
Subject: Re: Temperature Gauge.... 307/4Bbl 

mark wrote.
 I bought a flex fan
>today, and a spacer (gonna get rid of the clutch)
>
>I would keep the factory fan the clutch allows free spinning of fan when
>not needed, where as the flex fan turns all the time using more horse
>power the fastyer you turn it.  If the fan isn't working right replace the
>clutch unit they some times go bad.

Tim McChesney
71 cutlass convertable
74 cutlass supreme

------------------------------

From: Chris Urban <urbanch@magi.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 22:48:51 -0300
Subject: RE: Hi Torque Starter

Well for one they reduce a bit of weight, but the big thing is they can =
spin a high compression engine over easier, and faster, without breaking =
down as a conventional one tends to do after any time on such an engine.

- ----------
From: 	BobH592058@aol.com[SMTP:BobH592058@aol.com]
Sent: 	Sunday, July 07, 1996 9:09 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Re: Hi Torque Starter

In a message dated 96-07-06 17:20:43 EDT, you write:

<< Oddly, the Mondello high torque starter is the cheapest one I've seen =
for=20
 olds.  Most run well over 200 bucks but the one in the Mondello catalog =

 is only 150.  Anyone else find a cheap one?
  >>

Hi Paul:

What is the advantage of these expensive "high torque" starters if one =
is
having no starter problems?  From what I have seen and read about them, =
they
are actually small electric motors using a reduction gear drive.  I =
thought
they were a "race" item intended to reduce weight a few ounces.

Other than that, what do they have to offer?

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 22:49:14 -0300
Subject: Re: 493 olds stroker.. 

At 08:58 PM 7/7/96 -0300, you wrote:
>Michael Brady wrote:
>> 
>  Jeez, you sound like a dynomax rep! ;)  I went with the dynomax headers 
>(non-coated)... It is a major headache putting em in.. specially with the 
>4-speed..  I had to dent the drivers side pipes to clear the steering
shaft, and 
>the passenger side to clear the upper part of the "A" arm..  I hope you
dont end 
>up having to dent your set.. I would imagine it will ruin the ceramic
coating.. 
>It took me a day to get the drivers side in and about half a day to put the 
>passenger side in.  Now that they are in I'm getting a strange sound..
kinda like 
>a blower motor on high with bad berrings.  I think the headers may still be 
>rubbing somewhere.. Looking back on it, I dont think they were worth the
trouble.. 
>:(
>
>Ken
>
Ken:

I installed my one & only headers on my new 1973 Cutlass years ago & had the
same trouble.  Maintenance was poor too.  I annually replaced gaskets (I got
good at it too) and burned out solenoids on the starter.  Years later, when
they got rusty, I ditched them & replaced the stock system.  What a relief.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama
>
>

------------------------------

From: Todd Hall <thall@en.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 23:16:57 -0300
Subject: Re: oldsmobiles 

At 08:09 PM 7/6/96 -0300, you wrote:
>Hello olds freaks, i thought i would introduce myself to everybody, i 
>know a lot more about oldsmobiles than i do computer's so if i mess up 
>please forgive me, i'm learning!!! 

Hi Mike...

I've got just the opposite problem, I've spent the last few years playin'
with computers and forgot half the stuff I learned about cars. So if I ask
some really stupid questions please forgive *me*, I'm relearning!

Todd Hall

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 00:09:27 -0300
Subject: RE: Hi Torque Starter 

At 10:48 PM 7/7/96 -0300, you wrote:
>Well for one they reduce a bit of weight, but the big thing is they can
spin a high compression engine over easier, and faster, without breaking
down as a conventional one tends to do after any time on such an engine.
>
>----------
>
>What is the advantage of these expensive "high torque" starters if one is
>having no starter problems?  From what I have seen and read about them, they
>are actually small electric motors using a reduction gear drive.  I thought
>they were a "race" item intended to reduce weight a few ounces.
>
>Other than that, what do they have to offer?
>
>Bob Handren
>
>Bob:

I have some high compression cars (1967 Toronado, 1968 442, 1970 Buick GS
455, 1963 Supercharged Avanti, 1969 390 AMX, 1963 Dodge 383, 1962 Dodge 361)
& they do fine on their standard starters.  The compression ranges form 9.0
to 10.75.  Most have AC & other electrical accessories.  Most starters are
old too.  I think that a good condition starter & electrical system will do
well on even high compression.  

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: JIM DAVIDSON <"jdavidsn@ix.netcom.com"@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 00:16:03 -0300
Subject: Re: '69 442 dash

Bryceman wrote:
> 
> >Does anyone know a good source for dashes. It seems most suppliers
> >(Supercars, Year One...) deal with everything but.
> >
> >Also, does any one know of any solutions to fixing a cracked dash.
> 
> I would try Halls Olds salvage. last time I was there, they had three 69
> dashes. Their address and phone is on the Olds page under Olds Parts
> Sources link.
> 
>  EXCESSIVE IRON rules the road!
> '65 442
> '66 Dynamic 88 B07 Apprehender
>  bryceman@442.com
>  www.442.com

In case you want to have the equivalent of a brand new dash for your car 
rather than a repaired one, I can recommend Just Dashes in Van Nuys, CA. 
They will completely redo your core and match the grain and color (from 
an unfaded area of the original).  Their work is not exactly cheap but 
it certainly is outstanding--and probably the same cost as a repro would 
be if one were available. Their phone number is (818)780-9005. I've had 
them do four dashes for me including a '59 Cadillac (that's a tough 
one!) and I've never been disappointed.  Jim Davidson, Los Angeles

------------------------------

From: Rod Rickenbach <rod@hopi.dtcc.edu>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 00:28:52 -0300
Subject: RE: Hi Torque Starter

On Sat, 6 Jul 1996, Chris Urban wrote:

> Try a bone yard for a starter off the diesel 350. Its high torque as well. 

It sure is - w two 1000 CCA batteries, those diesel starters can 
really turn over a 22.5:1 compression engine!

You better forget putting it in a ggas car tho - the body is lonmgger, 
which requires moving the driver's side motor mount forward.  You'd rip 
your hair out trying ro relocate the frame pad unless you yanked the motor.

Also, those diesel starters only weigh about 2.7 TONS (well, it feels 
like that when you are holding it with one hand. :)  

- -Rod "Luv them diesels!"
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Rod Rickenbach                                       Delaware Tech
     rod@dtcc.edu                                 Computer Services Department
http://www.dtcc.edu/~rod                            Stanton/Wilmington Campus

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 00:05:48 -0300
Subject: #10 heads, misc stuff

> From: Dana and Mary Taylor <dmtaylor@top.monad.net>
> Just ran across a pair of 82 toronados. Pretty complete. If anyone
> interested. also a question. I also ran across a pair of 2A heads and
> another pair of 10 or maybe an O not sure which. would either of these be
> a good choice for my 350 rebuild?

Actually, it's hard to imagine a WORSE pair of heads for a 350. Those are both
260 heads, with the teeny tiny squarish intake ports and motorcycle-size
valves. I thought we settled your heads dilemma: use any large-port SB heads
EXCEPT for #8's... such as #5A? 7a [little capital "A"], 7, 6, or 5.

> Hey speaking of toro's, I've often wondered why they never reached a
> higher level of collectability? After all they were the " flag ship" of
> the olds line, and i believe way ahead of there time. The 66' toro has

Well, a lot of folks are more interested in performance, ya know... [uh-oh,
*dons asbestos underwear*]

> really grown on me over the years and it woulndn't surprise me if some
> day one of these will sit next to one of my 4-4-2s. Take care.

Grown on you, like a.. oh never mind, I think the water's hot enough already!

> I drained the old gas out of my '72 Cutlass this morning. I pulled one of
> the fuel lines from the back of the tank and siphoned it out. What I was
> curious about is why are there four fuel lines out of the tank and where do
> they all go?

You don't have 4 carbs!? Heh. I'm guessing: Fuel supply to engine, return from
fuel pump, vapor to charcoal canister, and, uh, I dunno... MANUAL!
- -Chris-

> On Fri, 5 Jul 1996, Ken wrote:
> > The Mondello article calls for 455 Forged Buick rods in the recipe for the 4
93
> > Olds.  Are all Buick 455 rods forged?  I've found a 1976 Buick Electra w/455
> > posi for $125.  Will the rods in this car be forged?
> 1) Yes, all Buick 455 rods are forged.

Aren't pretty much all rods forged. I mean, as opposed to what, cast? Heh.
That's one of my gripes about the Mondello Tech Manual- it list Olds rod ID's,
and a whole column is taken up noting that every one is "FORGED"... Why not
just a note, one line, that all are forged? If there are alternatives, then
list that there: "All Olds rods are forged, not [cast, drawn, welded
assemblies, whatever]."  -Chris-

> Does anyone know a good source for dashes. It seems most suppliers
> (Supercars, Year One...) deal with everything but.
> Also, does any one know of any solutions to fixing a cracked dash.

Uh, the place called "Just Dashes"...? You *do* have a Hemmings, right?
- -Chris-

> > To get it out, you need a hoist - you can rent that - & a friend or so to

Back when I was really poor? I used to use a Power Puller [hand wire rope
winch] and a 4x4 over the rafters in the garage. Tree limb, etc. same thing.
Will/way kinda thing... -Chris-

> The last guy who rebuilt it painted it bronze for some reason.

Maybe cuz Bronze is the correct color for your car's engine, and he wanted it
to look correct at first glance- until an expert starts checking numbers.
- -69 442, right?

> (Maybe bronze isn't a bad color for the time being ;) )

Or for later times...

> I can supply a dash for your 69. If interested, call me at (817))572-2924.
> Art Fuller

Yeah, if used-but-usable is OK, others have them also. I have a green one I
think. Gold maybe. What color you need, w/ or w/o air cond'g? Just the padded
part I presume. -Chris-
> From: Chris Urban <urbanch@magi.com>
> Subject: RE: Hi Torque Starter
> Try a bone yard for a starter off the diesel 350. Its high torque as well.

Good call, those things have huge field coils. And weigh *2* tons.

> > The 66' toro has really grown on me over the year's and it woulnd'nt
> > surprise me if some day one of these will sit next to one of my 4-4-2s.

That VIRUS! It spreads & spreads! If only I had a -CARB- on the red one, I
could still drive it around the fields, too! -Chris-

> I got my Mondello book finally and the Cars & Parts book.  The Mondello
> book almost qualifies for a magazine, instead of a book.  However, there
> is some good tech info in there.  Worth the money.  I haven't seen

Yeah, and a few typos/ errors, too. Like listing, under cam bank angles chart,
the "425 except Toronado"... No kidding, not the '65 Toro motor, huh? Go
figure! I concur: small, limited in scope, but packed with fairly useful stuff,
and the best there is... yet.  -Chris-

> anybody mention the cars and parts book.  It it basically the how do you
> decode these numbers type of book.  However, it does include stuff all
> the way up to '91.  The other bonus in this book is the photos of paint
> and trim colors.  Very nice.

I'd love to hear more about this book- cost, where to get it, does it cover
only VIN docoding, or go into diff'l codes [as if you can read them], engine ID
by actual useful numbers like casting numbers [not tape attached to oil fill
tube!], does it cover all models not just Cutlass/442/Toro, etc. -Chris-

> pretty leniant, but I guess I don't want to take any chances.  The car is my
> 72 Delta 88 Conv. w/ stock 350, 4bbl Qjet, and stock single exhaust.  It runs
> great...starts right up and hustles that beast of a car all around town quite
> regularly.  Any advice?  Lean up the carb or leave it be?  Which fuel

Lean, but not to the point of misfire. Set points gap properly, if still using
that antique method of firing. Set timing a bit retarded.  -Chris-

> Hello, All... I just purchased a cheepie Sun mechanical water
> temperature guage, and was wondering where I should install the sending
> unit. It says I can't use a "T" connector, and I don't want to disturb
> the computer's signal. It's a 1986 Olds 307/4Bbl.

Well, you seem to have to either lose a stock sensor in the water passage, or
drill & tap a new hole for your sensor. Your call. -Chris-
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Jeff Stanish <stanishj@svpal.org>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 01:36:02 -0300
Subject: Re: '71 442 taillight bezels

Yeah   Larry gets my vote too. He's helped me here and there.   Although  I 
have to compete for parts with him when I need stuff.  Others deal in 
used OLDS stuff too but don't always give honest descriptions of the 
parts condition.


On Sun, 7 Jul 1996, Daniel Gulino wrote:

> 
> 
> On Fri, 5 Jul 1996, Darrell T. Weinman, M.D. wrote:
> 
> > Dear Oldspersons:
> > 
> > Any information as to how to obtain '71 taillight bezels?
> > 
> 
> Darrell,
> 
> Two words:  Larry Camuso.  He's a used parts seller in California whom 
> I've dealt with several times, and he is excellent.  I currently have an 
> order in with him now for a number of trim and interior pieces for my '75 
> Delta 88.  He advertises in Hemmings.  Call him at (408) 286-6537, 9am - 
> 9pm, M-F.  And no, he's not my brother-in-law!
> 
> 
> Dan Gulino
> 
> 

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 01:57:04 -0300
Subject: Re: Anyone replaced a `72 heater core? 

At 05:32 PM 7/4/96 -0400, you wrote:
>I found a green liquid beginning to rust the front passenger floor pan in my
>`72 Vista Cruiser( A station wagon that is basically a Cutlass Supreme from
>the nose to the B-pillar).  That must be the heater core, I tried tightening
>the hoses down around the flanges but a week later the mess is back.

Yup, that's your heater core alright. It isn't so bad in the summer, when
you don't have the heat on; the heater control valve effectively shuts off
coolant flow through the core (though it is still present and will leak). If
you put your defroster on with the temp lever toward hot, your windows would
probably steam up.

> Anyone tried replaceing the heater core on a Cutlass with air conditioning?
>How long does it take?  My motor's auto repair manual says that the heater
>case assembly comes out after the blower motor is removed but that can't be
>right.  They must mean the blower an shroud along with it.

I've removed a couple of these (last one on a '72 Vista Cruiser I was
parting out a few months ago; hey, need any parts...? :), and as others have
mentioned, getting at them is the big problem. You have to remove the lower
ductwork, the glovebox (door can stay, just the inside), the vacuum lines
and control cable to the heater box, and some nuts (and bolts?) from the
engine-side of the firewall. The trick is finding which nuts and bolts, as
some are unnecessary and some are crucial, and this isn't apparent until
*after* you have removed everything (I believe one is hidden *inside* the
A/C box; you have to remove the blower motor resistor to access it- you
would *never* find this one on your own!). If someone on this list has a
shop manual from '72, that is the way to find out exactly what nuts you
should remove (seriously consider getting the shop manual for this car if
you are going to keep it; Year One has one for $46- a worthwhile investment
if there ever was one).

Once the nuts are removed, you have to pull the heater case until the studs
clear the firewall. The problem you will encounter is the firewall
insulation, which will want to stay attached to the heater box, and keep you
from dropping it down. As you begin to wiggle the case away from the
firewall, put your hand up there to push the insulation back against the
firewall. This will also keep you from tearing your insulation to shreds as
you drop the box down with all those sharp studs sticking out from it.

Once the case is out, of course, removing the old core from it and
installing the new one is very easy. Getting the whole thing back together
isn't that hard either. It helps to have *real small* hands, to reach all
the nuts and connectors.

>I have just got the heater core bypassed for now.  Any info would be very
>much appreciated.
>
>Greg Pruett

It is definitely a do-able job, just messy and awkward. If your carpet
wasn't already soaked from the antifreeze, I'd say to put down a dropcloth
to catch the fluid leftover in the core that *will* spill out when you drop
down the case.

Good luck, and get the shop manual!
Dr. Robert Barry
Theology Dept.
Providence College
Providence RI 02908

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 01:57:08 -0300
Subject: HELP! Need governor for TH425 in '69 Toronado!!! ASAP!!! 

Hello, all, from my new address! I'm about to retire my Bob0Barry address at
AOL, and will be posting from here from work, which should be far less
flaky. Now down to business...

The governor driven gear on my '69 Toronado is stripped, and I need a
replacement ASAP. Originally, the governor was also jammed, so that the
tranny always thought the car was going fast enough to stay in 3rd gear
(hence my 3-on-the-tree Toronado). I pulled the governor, found the driven
gear to be chewed away, and freed up the governor valve; now the tranny
always thinks the car *isn't* moving, and won't shift up from first gear.
With that, I went from a partially-driveable Toronado to a heap in the driveway.

BTW, the symptoms of a stripped driven gear in a Toronado governor is
1st-gear only in "D" and no speedo/odometer operation (it is run off the
governor gear).

So, I need a functioning governor. My tranny shop can't get one new, but
gave me a lead for a good used one. Does anyone here know of a source for
these brand new? Or does anyone have one in excellent working condition that
they can overnight to me for a decent price?  I'd like to get this thing
going this week, as I need to have the car inspected for registration ASAP.

Has anyone else ever trashed their governor's driven gear? It is a white
plastic piece pinned to the governor shaft that is apparently meant to
sacrifice itself in the event of a mishap. I am wondering what might have
caused this (aside from simple material failure) at 105,000 miles, so that I
can avoid becoming a serial-trasher of Toronado governors.

Other than that, this Toro is one sweet ride. You can tell that this was a
quality car when it was built; even with the original Delco shocks, the ride
is smooth over rough pavement, the doors close with a nice *thunk*, the
trunk is lined with charcoal-colored felt (most has been protected by a
factory rubber trunk mat; nice touch), there are courtesy lights everywhere,
etc. Once I get the radio and the Comfortron working, it'll be as good as
any new Lexus; heck, it'll be *better*, with more interior space, better
styling, easier service, all for about two-months lease payment on a new Lexus.
Dr. Robert Barry
Theology Dept.
Providence College
Providence RI 02908

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 01:57:16 -0300
Subject: Priming oil pump, windage tray and cup plug Q's 

I finally got the 403's shortblock assembled this weekend, and should be
installing it this week. I've got a few detail-type questions about it though.

1) Should the oil pump be primed in some way before I install it on the
engine? I've heard of people packing it with vaseline or another type of
grease, and know that a VW oil pump won't pump oil unless you fill it before
installation (don't ask how long I let the engine run before deciding that
oil light just *wasn't* going to go out...). What about on an Olds, then?
should I fill the pump with oil before installing it? Or would just
pre-lubing the engine be enough?

2) I've installed Mondello's windage tray on the bottom end, and have a few
questions about its "fit to application" nature. I dimpled the tray to clear
the rod bolts; should the edges be bent inward, however, to a specific
distance from the crank's counterweights in order to scrape off the oil? How
exactly should it fit?

In addition, 8 nuts are supplied to attach the tray to the extra-long studs;
how are they installed? I have the tray sandwiched between two nuts on each
stud; is that what he planned?

Yes, I have the Mondello tech guide, but all he talks about is dimpling the
oil pan to clear the studs (BTW, a note to JM; hire a professional editor
for your next edition of that manual. The excellent information you do
provide is muddled by your (dis)organization of material, your sentence
structure (please, at least one noun and one verb in each sentence), and
your grammar.)

Has anyone here on this list installed on of these pans? Any tips/warnings?

3) Finally, the rebuild kit included a freeze-plug package, but I'm at a
loss as to where some of the plugs they provide go. The cam plug and the
freeze plugs are pretty self evident; it's the specs on the rear left oil
galley plug that I need help on (the one that covers up the threaded galley
plug). There are three plugs left in the kit: 19/32" (definitely not it),
29/32" and 15/16" plugs. It appears as though either of these last two plugs
could be used for that hole, but I don't want to use up one meant for
another place where the other plug *wouldn't* work.

Once that Q is answered, then where do the other two plugs go? Is one of
these (the 19/32" perhaps) the oil pump pressure spring retaining cup? The
shop manuals give no indication of possible uses for the two remaining
plugs. Any experience here would be greatly appreciated.
Dr. Robert Barry
Theology Dept.
Providence College
Providence RI 02908

------------------------------

From: Michael Brady <drolds19@mail.idt.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 04:36:29 -0300
Subject: Re: oldsmobiles

Todd Hall wrote:
> 
> At 08:09 PM 7/6/96 -0300, you wrote:
> >Hello olds freaks, i thought i would introduce myself to everybody, i
> >know a lot more about oldsmobiles than i do computer's so if i mess up
> >please forgive me, i'm learning!!!
> 
> Hi Mike...
> 
> I've got just the opposite problem, I've spent the last few years playin'
> with computers and forgot half the stuff I learned about cars. So if I ask
> some really stupid questions please forgive *me*, I'm relearning!
> 
> Todd Hall
> Hello todd!! Well between the two of us maybe we could restore a car
> and set up a web sight?? I finally broke down and bought a computer
> last february and i can see how one of these thing's can absorb a 
> whole bunch of time,money and effort, sound's like a car huh?? Thank's
> for dropping me a line and anytime i can help-i'll try!!

>Mike, owner of one nasty lil 69 4-4-2

------------------------------

From: Michael Brady <drolds19@mail.idt.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 05:25:16 -0300
Subject: Re: oldsmobiles

Todd Hall wrote:
> 
> At 08:09 PM 7/6/96 -0300, you wrote:
> >Hello olds freaks, i thought i would introduce myself to everybody, i
> >know a lot more about oldsmobiles than i do computer's so if i mess up
> >please forgive me, i'm learning!!!
> 
> Hi Mike...
> 
> I've got just the opposite problem, I've spent the last few years playin'
> with computers and forgot half the stuff I learned about cars. So if I ask
> some really stupid questions please forgive *me*, I'm relearning!
> 
> Todd Hall
> Hello todd, maybe between the two of us we could restore a car and
> build a web site??? and there is no such thing as a stupid question!!
> Thank's for dropping me a line and if can ever help with your old's 
> question's i'll try.

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 08:52:13 -0300
Subject: Re: Hi Torque Starter

beats me, i don't use one. just thought it was interesting that 
mondello's one was the cheapest.  id figure it offers increased header 
clearance and increasted starting torque for engines with high cylinder 
pressure upon cranking.  other than that i'd assume its an all-new 
starter as opposed to a rebuilt one.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
 revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
 information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
 Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
 been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 08:56:21 -0300
Subject: RE: Hi Torque Starter

It depends what you consider high compression. 10.75:1 compression is not 
the kind of compression you'd find in the racing engine the starters were 
designed for.  also, depending on the camshaft you can end up with more 
or less cylinder pressure with the same compression ratio.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
 revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
 information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
 Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
 been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

From: Shawn Twomey <stwom@ctp.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 09:00:37 -0300
Subject: Performance Suspension Technologies

I'm looking for the individual who got the engine kit for his 403 for
like $620 with forged pistons, rockers, etc. from Performance Suspension
Technologies?  How was the stuff?  What brand pistons?  Adjustable
rockers?  And who are you, because I forgot.  Sorry.  How rude.

Their number, for anyone interested, is
800 247-2288

Thanks much,
Shawn


______________________________________________
Shawn M. Twomey  |  "No!  Try not!  Do, or do
stwom@ctp.com    |   not.  There is no try."
                 |   -Yoda
______________________________________________
                                

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 08:59:49 -0300
Subject: Re: #10 heads, misc stuff

Yes there are such a thing as cast rods.  I know there are more, but the 
example I can think of offhand is that Pontiacs come stock with rods cast 
out of a material called Armasteel

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
 revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
 information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
 Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
 been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 09:23:52 -0300
Subject: Parts Catalog

Hi,

Anyone know of a parts catalog that carries the annoying things like a =
grill plate for an 86 olds cutlass supreme. JC Whitney doesn't seem to =
do that kind of stuff, the dealer is too expensive, and I don't have =
time to go to junk yards.. I guess I am looking for a catalog like =
Dennis Kirk, but for cars... I can't put my car mask back on without =
replacing the passenger side that is partially snapped off. Anyone have =
an 800 number? Thanks.. Joanne

------------------------------

From: BRAD.NICHOLSON@s3abac8.ssa.gov
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 10:59:04 -0300
Subject: Monthly CCR Meeting 

     Anyone in the Baltimore-Washington DC areas who may be interested:
     
     The next meeting of the Capitol City Rockets Chapter of the Oldsmobile 
     Clib of America will be Wednesday July 10 @ the Davis Library in 
     Montgomery County.  It is located on Democracy Blvd in the triangle 
     made by I-495 and the I-270 spurs.  It starts about 7:30 in the large 
     meeting room {If I remember right}.  Any questions, get me at the 
     following addresses.
     
     work - brad.nicholson@ssa.gov
     home - 76062.3042@compuserve.com
     
     Later
     
      ---
     | | | Brad Nicholson
     | | | 1987 442 W-42
     | | | President - Capitol City Rockets, OCA
     |/|\| work - brad.nicholson@ssa.gov
     | | | home - 76062.3042@compuserve.com
      ---

------------------------------

From: BRAD.NICHOLSON@s3abac8.ssa.gov
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 11:04:28 -0300
Subject: GM - Oldsmobile Home Page 

     Hey,
     
     Oldsmobile got their home page up and running just after July 1.  When 
     I got there, a certain Toronado owner had already been there and left 
     his mark in the message area already (you know who you are)  Looks 
     like it could develope into a nice enthusiasts site.  It has a 
     swapmeet area, and of course stuff on the new model lines.  The 
     transfer rate seemed real slow.  You definetely need the ShockWave and 
     Quicktime VR add ons for Netscape Navigator to make the site "move".  
     Their address is of course: http://www.oldsmobile.com
     
     Later
     
      ---
     | | | Brad Nicholson
     | | | 1987 442 W-42
     | | | President - Capitol City Rockets, OCA
     |/|\| work - brad.nicholson@ssa.gov
     | | | home - 76062.3042@compuserve.com
      ---

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:21:35 -0300
Subject: Re: Rear speaker.. 

BobH592058@aol.com wrote:
> 
> The speaker wires for the factory system are thin as hair compared to 
> the _cables_ they try to sell in the stores.  Those things look like I 
> could connect the house heat pump through them.  Therefore I suspect 
> that speakers seldom, if ever in home/auto use, need such large 
> conductors.

Need?  Not really.  Could benefit from?  Sure.  Is it noticable?  Rarely.
The resistance of the wire does have some effect upon the speaker's 
operation: some power is lost in the wire and it effects "dampening".  
(The dampening factor is the ability of the amp to prevent the speaker 
cone from "rebounding" back and forth on it's own rather than moving 
proportional to the sound.  Higher resistance in the wires will reduce 
the effectiveness of the amp's ability to control the speaker.)

Since wire runs for most home systems tend to be pretty short and those 
in cars not much longer, the gauge of the wire has a minimal effect.  If 
you're going to set up a sound reenforcement system for a stage with 100' 
runs, then it matters a good deal.

My recomendation is zip-cord -- the wire you'd use for table lamps.  It's 
cheap; you can buy it anywhere; it's the right gauge; comes in white, 
brown, & clear; and it's polarized (it has a marking, usually a ribbing, 
on one wire).

Small PS:  Always use stranded wire, not solid.  Electrons travel on the 
surface of the wire (skin effect) and stranded wire has more surface.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:25:36 -0300
Subject: Re: GM - Oldsmobile Home Page

BRAD.NICHOLSON@s3abac8.ssa.gov wrote:
> 
> Oldsmobile got their home page up and running just after July 1.  When
> I got there, a certain Toronado owner had already been there and left
> his mark in the message area already (you know who you are).

Who?  Me?

> Looks like it could develope into a nice enthusiasts site.

Sure does.  Hope we can maintain a dialogue with them.  I figure it could 
only be in our best interest to have friends at corporate.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: BRAD.NICHOLSON@s3abac8.ssa.gov
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 11:24:49 -0300
Subject: Oldsmobile on CD-ROM 

     Oldsmobile has a neat CD-ROM available for the incredible price of 
     FREE!!!  It's the "Oldsmobile Virtual Showroom" and of course there is 
     the usual sales hype but it also comes with a street map program from 
     Comptons.  I found mine and my parents streets on it.  WILD.  (my 
     street is only 3 years old and is still skiped on newer maps)  GET 
     YOUR COLLECTABLE by calling 1-800-850-8524.  There was an add in a 
     freinds June 10 Fortune Magazine, their auto issue. I got mine in 
     about 2 weeks.  Just something more to collect dust.
     
      ---
     | | | Brad Nicholson
     | | | 1987 442 W-42
     | | | President - Capitol City Rockets, OCA
     |/|\| work - brad.nicholson@ssa.gov
     | | | home - 76062.3042@compuserve.com
      ---

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:34:26 -0300
Subject: Re: HELP! Need governor for TH425 in '69 Toronado!!! ASAP!!!

Robert J. Barry wrote:
> 
> The governor driven gear on my '69 Toronado is stripped, and I need a
> replacement ASAP. 

Bob, 

You might try Oldsmobile USA in Va (703) 335-1935.  They list a lot of 
transmission parts in their catalog.  They don't list the gov. but they 
do say they have a COMPLETE (?) line of parts and to call if you don't 
see want you want listed.

Chris Witt (wittchri@pilot.msu.edu) or Bob Handren (BobH592058@aol.com) 
might also be of some help.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: JJF97@uno.cc.geneseo.edu
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 11:35:38 -0300
Subject: Re: 47 olds 2 dr fastback 66 series

hey!!!

finally some owners of older stuff!!!


if you want you can e-mail me directly at

  jjf97@uno.cc.geneseo.edu

write me at:

	joe ferrero
	

	13 rorbach lane
	geneseo, ny 14454

i have a 1947 olds model 76 2 door fastback

and a 1948 olds model 66 4 dr sedan

my 48 is restored back to original and my 47 is being restored....
if you have any "?"'s or need any leads, let me know.

i also know a person near me that has a 2 door coupe and a "parts car"
2 dr fastback both  have 66 series.


if you want it talk to me!!!   =)

and welcome on!!!!


- --joe

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:37:42 -0300
Subject: Re: HELP! Need governor for TH425 in '69 Toronado!!! ASAP!!!

Robert J. Barry wrote:
> 
> Other than that, this Toro is one sweet ride. 

Aren't they, though.

> You can tell that this was a quality car when it was built...

IMHO, one of the very best cars EVER built.

> ...it'll be as good as any new Lexus; heck, it'll be *better*, with 
> more interior space, better styling, easier service, all for about 
> two-months lease payment on a new Lexus.

Toro!  Toro!  Toro!  OK, now everybody...

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:40:10 -0300
Subject: Re: Hi Torque Starter

Lloyd Culp wrote:
> 
> I think that a good condition starter & electrical system will do
> well on even high compression.

Me too.  They did when they were built, didn't they?

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:48:47 -0300
Subject: Foot in Mouth  Was: #10 heads, misc stuff

Chris Brown Witt wrote:
> 
> > Hey speaking of toro's, I've often wondered why they never reached a
> > higher level of collectability? After all they were the " flag ship" 
> > of the olds line, and i believe way ahead of there time.
> 
> Well, a lot of folks are more interested in performance, ya know... 
> [uh-oh, *dons asbestos underwear*]
> 
> > really grown on me over the years and it woulndn't surprise me if 
> > some day one of these will sit next to one of my 4-4-2s. Take care.
> 
> Grown on you, like a.. oh never mind, I think the water's hot enough 
> already!
> That VIRUS! It spreads & spreads! If only I had a -CARB- on the red 
> one, I could still drive it around the fields, too!

Oh, this is going to be fun to watch!      ;)

The 66 Toro and Mike

 
- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 11:04:14 -0300
Subject: Re: Performance Suspension Technologies 

At 08:00 AM 7/8/96 -0400, you wrote:
>I'm looking for the individual who got the engine kit for his 403 for

Oooh, oooh, me, that's me! ;)

>like $620 with forged pistons, rockers, etc. from Performance Suspension
>Technologies?  How was the stuff?  What brand pistons?  Adjustable
>rockers?  And who are you, because I forgot.  Sorry.  How rude.

Well, I'm deeply offended, and have changed my e-mail address because of
this... 

Actually, the kit was $590, since a true roller timing chain set was not
available for the Olds from PST. The pistons were TRW forged pistons (are
there even any other non-custom forged pistons available for the 403?).
Other "brand" items were the Speed-Pro chrome-moly rings, Clevite 77
bearings, and the Detroit Gasket and Fel-Pro gaskets. 

Most everything else was "white-box" parts, but they certainly looked
quality enough. One possible exception was the rocker stands. Rather than a
single cast aluminum piece for each bridge, there were individual cast
fulcrums joined by a stamped-steel bridge strap. These pieces were all
pretty heavy-duty, hence I'm not worried about using them; they are just a
different design than the stock and usual replacement parts.

>Their number, for anyone interested, is
>800 247-2288

I haven't fired the engine up yet (later this week), but from what I've seen
I highly recommend the PST kits. They give you much more than the other kits
I've seen (PAW, Mondello), with the same-quality components, for a lower
price. What more can you ask for?

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
- - 1978 Electra Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 12:26:06 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Hi Torque Starter 

          
Hi Paul:
          
What is the advantage of these expensive "high torque" starters if one is 
having no starter problems?  From what I have seen and read about them, they 
are actually small electric motors using a reduction gear drive.  I thought 
they were a "race" item intended to reduce weight a few ounces.
          
Other than that, what do they have to offer?
          
Bob Handren
          
          
          
          There seems to be some confusion between "hi-torque 
          starters" and the reduced-diameter racing starters which are 
          available.  Hi-torque starters, as have been noted by others 
          on the list, are designed to provide additional torque 
          (surprize!) required to spin over a large displacement, high 
          compression engine.  Typically, a hi-torque starter uses a 
          stock housing and just has additional/larger windings to 
          provide the additional torque.  The reason that those who 
          have e-mailed in on the subject have had no problems with 
          their stock starters is that these are already hi-torque 
          units.  
          
          An easy way to identify a factory hi-torque from a wimpy 
          starter is to look at the location of the copper tab which 
          penetrates the main starter body and is bolted to the botton 
          terminal of the solenoid.  A normal starter will have this 
          tab penetrating from the starter body virtually adjacent to 
          the solenoid terminal (a inch or two in from the end of the 
          starter).  A factory hi-torque will have this tab 
          penetrating much closer to the end of the starter body.  An 
          original solenoid will use an extended bottom terminal to 
          mate to this tab, while aftermarker replacements will 
          typically come with a little copper tube to extend the 
          terminal to reach the tab.
          
          Note that it is possible to have these starters rebuilt for 
          even greater starting torque.  I had one done for my 71 
          Cutlass (dual quads, nitrous, 10.5:1 455 - the ex got it) 
          and it made a significant difference in cranking speed.  You 
          must start with a factory hi-torque core.  Cost (about 10 
          years ago) was somewhat under $100.
          
          The lighter weight/reduced diameter units others have 
          referred to on the list, as noted, are racing units designed 
          for reduced weight and improved chassis/header clearance in 
          addition to increased torque.  These often use improved 
          magnetic materials (I think "Magnaquench" is one brand name) 
          instead of iron for the same or greater magnetic force with 
          reduced volume and weight.  I think GM actually developed 
          this technology as a way of making cars smaller and lighter 
          for improved gas mileage.
          
          BTW, GM starters typically do not use gear reduction drives 
          in the starter (yes, I know the gear on the Bendix and the 
          gear on the flywheel counts as a gear reduction). Chrysler 
          always has, which is the reason for the characteristic Mopar 
          starter whine. (Oh, I can hear the one-liners now....)
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: "Andrew A. Senko" <senko@reston.ans.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 11:21:08 -0300
Subject: H/O sighted; replacing radiator

Greetings!

I was returning from a weekend on the beaches of Delaware when I saw a used
car lot with about 20 cars from the 50's and 60's for sale.  Stopped to look
and found many Mustangs, Cadillacs, a 57 T-Bird that my girlfriend fell in
love with, and one lonely Oldsmobile.  It's an '83 H/O Black and gray exterior.
Interior looked pretty good (to me).  The gauges claimed 62K miles.  The
car had 15" chrome SSII (or SSIII, they were chrome so what's the
difference?) wheels that needed some attention.  The bottoms of the doors
did not exhibit any deterioration.  The car also has a moonroof.
One strange thing, the lower sections of the body, the parts that were painted
gray were not smooth, but had a textured look.  It was even throughout the
bottom of the car on both sides.  Was this a factory feature?  It looked
like a good way to hide rust bubbles.  Make the whole bottom of the car
look like rust bubbles from the start!  Ingenious!
The H/O was one of the few cars on the lot that did not have a price on the
window.  The place was closed so I couldn't ask.  If anyone's interested,
the place was Gene's Auto Sales in Bridgeville Delaware.  Sorry, I don't
have a number, but I will pass the place again on weekends throughout the
summer, if anyone needs it.

Radiator
- --------
I am replacing the radiator in my '71 CS.  I bought a new heavy duty 4-row
unit from a local shop, and when we tried to put it in the car, it
didn't sit low enough.  It turns out that the new rad has a drainage valve
on the bottom of the tank, directly down below the filler spout.  This valve
was hitting the shelf or body piece below where the rad sits, so it
wouldn't sit in there correctly.  Anyone else run into this problem?

I suppose I could cut a hole where the valve wants to sit, but I'm not sold
on that idea.  My current plan is to take both the old and new radiators to
the rad shop and exchange for one that compares more closely to the old
one.  I will have to pull the rad one night, take them to the shop
during lunch the next day, and install them after work that night.
Now my only problem is, how do I plug the transmission line, or what
do I use to plug it for an entire day while I take the radiators with me to
the shop?  Any suggestions?

I'm on the digest list, so please CC any suggestions to me at
senko@reston.ans.net so that I might get them before I do the work on the
car.  Thanks.
                                                                 _
- --                                                               |\
Drew Senko                   Convertibles         .__====-_._____|_\______
senko@reston.ans.net             Rule!            [   ___  |-     |  ___  \
http://members.gnn.com/senko                      =\_//.\\_|______|_//.\\__)
______________________________________________________\_/____________\_/_____

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 11:37:34 -0300
Subject: experimental engine

Hey, I won't say who exactly [not me], but someone is investigating the
possibility of obtaining an old 455? experimental engine... Previous owner used
to be an engineer at Olds, managed to divert an engine from the infamous
Friedland yard... been in the family for years... now, a move forces garage
cleanout.

Be very interesting to see that unit...

I'll let him tell the whole story himself if/when the time arises. They *are*
out there, though.
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 12:39:18 -0300
Subject: Headers  (was: 493 olds stroker..) 

          I have always used headers on my 442s and found a wide 
          variety in quality and fit.  The best and the worst have 
          been Kenne-Bell units (does K-B still do Olds parts, or have 
          the 5.slow parts caused them to drop Olds?).  The first set 
          of K-B headers I bought went on the 71 Cutlass with the 455 
          and dual quads.  This car had a 'glass tilt front end, so I 
          had the headers porcelain coated by a vendor in the LA area. 
          The fit was excellent (OK, having a tilt front helped a 
          little with accessability for installation) and the 
          porcelain held up great.  This car had a TH400.
          
          My second experience with K-B headers came about 5 years 
          after the first, when I needed to replace the headers on the 
          70 W-30.  Having had good results the first time, I ordered 
          a second set.  Apparently K-B had changed design or vendors, 
          as the headers were now only available in chrome, at a 
          significant price increase.  The headers also did not fit 
          very well (the 70 is a 4-spd car and has stock fenders), 
          with much interference to the clutch linkage.  Once in, 
          however, I have had little trouble in almost 10 years.  
          Collector gaskets need to be replaced periodically (about 
          every two years - you DO keep a spare set in the garage, 
          don't you).
          
          I've also used Hedman (good fit on a previous 68 442, also a 
          TH400 car) and Black Jack (on a 74 Chevy 454 pickup).  The 
          latter were aluminum sprayed, which is much more durable 
          than the porcelain but is stained by spilled oil.  I plan to 
          try Hooker next, as they seem to be the best built and 
          best-fitting units.
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 11:44:14 -0300
Subject: any 330's?

Anyone have a '67 330 engine lying about, dismantled? The one with casting ID
"3"? If so, please contact me, I have a question for you.
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 11:47:39 -0300
Subject: Re: Performance Suspension Technologies

> Most everything else was "white-box" parts, but they certainly looked
> quality enough. One possible exception was the rocker stands. Rather than a
> single cast aluminum piece for each bridge, there were individual cast
> fulcrums joined by a stamped-steel bridge strap. These pieces were all
> pretty heavy-duty, hence I'm not worried about using them; they are just a
> different design than the stock and usual replacement parts.

> - Bob Barry

I just rebuilt my 69 400 and came across these exact same replacements. When I
dissassembled my engine I found 3 broken right where the bridge turns into the
foot. From an engineering standpoint, I think the new design is better in that
it eliminates this high stress area in a casting. 


 				Pat Clark
    				 69 442
    			        400/TH400
    			  clark@abu.dseg.ti.com

     The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 12:04:11 -0300
Subject: Re: GM - Oldsmobile Home Page 

>Who?  Me?
>
>> Looks like it could develope into a nice enthusiasts site.
>
>Sure does.  Hope we can maintain a dialogue with them.  I figure it could 
>only be in our best interest to have friends at corporate.
>
>The 66 Toro and Mike
>
>
>Mike:

I'm sure that you recommended teh ressurrection of the Toronado - possibly
something like a Riviera W/Aurora drivetrain properly modified to 375 horses.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 12:13:21 -0300
Subject: Re: '69 442 dash

I have a 69 dash for sale. The cost is $150 + $15.00 shipping.  If interested, 
my name is Art and I can be reached at mefco@sprynet.com.

------------------------------

From: Paul Bartlett <bartletp@osshe.edu>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 12:22:43 -0300
Subject: found 1966 Toronado for sale

I came across 1 1966 Toronado for sale in Medford, Southern Oregon.  Car
has obviously been sitting for a long time.  It has bias ply tires (with
air in them).  Paint (gold) is terrible.  Body has some dents.  Interior
has been baked under the sun.  But everything is there and no rust.  

The car has air conditioning.  The other unusual thing about it was that
the car has an air pump.  According to my service manual, the 1966
Toronados sold in California had air pumps.  Who would have thought that
these air pumps go back to 1966.

Oh, the guy wants $1,500.  He says the car runs great.  Well if so, it
must run far better than it looks.  So if anyone is looking for a
restoration project in Southern Oregon, please let me know!

Paul Bartlett E-mail bartletp@osshe.edu

------------------------------

From: Bill Gochenour <billg@sjuvm.stjohns.edu>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:39:18 -0300
Subject: Re: H/O sighted; replacing radiator

Andrew A. Senko wrote:
> 
> Greetings!
> 
> I was returning from a weekend on the beaches of Delaware when I saw a used
> car lot with about 20 cars from the 50's and 60's for sale.  Stopped to look
> and found many Mustangs, Cadillacs, a 57 T-Bird that my girlfriend fell in
> love with, and one lonely Oldsmobile.  It's an '83 H/O Black and gray exterior.
> Interior looked pretty good (to me).  The gauges claimed 62K miles.  The
> car had 15" chrome SSII (or SSIII, they were chrome so what's the
> difference?) wheels that needed some attention.  The bottoms of the doors
> did not exhibit any deterioration.  The car also has a moonroof.
> One strange thing, the lower sections of the body, the parts that were painted
> gray were not smooth, but had a textured look.  It was even throughout the
> bottom of the car on both sides.  Was this a factory feature?  It looked
> like a good way to hide rust bubbles.  Make the whole bottom of the car
> look like rust bubbles from the start!  Ingenious!
> The H/O was one of the few cars on the lot that did not have a price on the
> window.  The place was closed so I couldn't ask.  If anyone's interested,
> the place was Gene's Auto Sales in Bridgeville Delaware.  Sorry, I don't
> have a number, but I will pass the place again on weekends throughout the
> summer, if anyone needs it.
> 
> Radiator
> --------
> I am replacing the radiator in my '71 CS.  I bought a new heavy duty 4-row
> unit from a local shop, and when we tried to put it in the car, it
> didn't sit low enough.  It turns out that the new rad has a drainage valve
> on the bottom of the tank, directly down below the filler spout.  This valve
> was hitting the shelf or body piece below where the rad sits, so it
> wouldn't sit in there correctly.  Anyone else run into this problem?
> 
> I suppose I could cut a hole where the valve wants to sit, but I'm not sold
> on that idea.  My current plan is to take both the old and new radiators to
> the rad shop and exchange for one that compares more closely to the old
> one.  I will have to pull the rad one night, take them to the shop
> during lunch the next day, and install them after work that night.
> Now my only problem is, how do I plug the transmission line, or what
> do I use to plug it for an entire day while I take the radiators with me to
> the shop?  Any suggestions?
> 
> I'm on the digest list, so please CC any suggestions to me at
> senko@reston.ans.net so that I might get them before I do the work on the
> car.  Thanks.
>                                                                  _
> --                                                               |\
> Drew Senko                   Convertibles         .__====-_._____|_\______
> senko@reston.ans.net             Rule!            [   ___  |-     |  ___  \
> http://members.gnn.com/senko                      =\_//.\\_|______|_//.\\__)
> ______________________________________________________\_/____________\_/_____
The 83 Hurst/Olds has chip-guard paint on the lower paint surface, this 
is factory and is standard on both my 83 H/O & 86 442. You didn't mention 
the color of the interior, was it maroon or snad gray?
	Just a hint on the price, I just picked up an 83 H/O about 6 
months ago with get this "9969 original miles" all options including 
T-tops. The guy even ordered the entire stripe/decal kit sealed new from 
GM when he bought the car & extra seat skins, his reason was "just in 
case". OK with me! The total for this almost new 13 year old toy...... 
$15,000.00, worth it, depends if your asking me or my wife. The answers 
do vary a bit!

- -- 
Bill !                                      _           _       ___
                                          /  |        /  |    /  _  \
83 Hurst/Olds 15th Aniversary Edition   /    |      /    |   |_|   | |
86 442 The Perfect "10"               /  / | |_   /  / | |_      /  /
                                     |_____   _| |_____   _|   /  /__
                                           |_|         |_|   |_______|

        See the site at http://yogi-bear.stjohns.edu/~toychest

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 11:36:39 -0300
Subject: Re: T-tops & interior lights 

Clint "Syntax error" :-) writes:
>On Fri, 5 Jul 1996, Shawn Twomey wrote:
>> Those of us driving G-body's (78-87 Cutlasses) that have t-tops have an
>> interior lighting problem, as no overhead dome light is provided - there
>> are two lights down by the kick panels and two in the rear passenger
>> compartment, but these are hardly adequate when you need to see inside
>> your car at night.  I know that Andrew had an overhead map light console
>> that fit rather well and attached to the center plastic trip piece
>> between the tops, but apparently this product is no longer available.

Too true, unfortunately. Somebody with a vacuum-forming machine could
probably turn out a nice imitation of it if someone wants to contact
Bryce's boss about loaning us the original for a pattern.  :-)

>Hmm... I have a dome light that Wynand put into the car before I bought
>it.  It sits directly above the center console between the seat headrests
>(if that makes any sense).  It has a cool three way switch on  it as well,
>but it's getting flakely.

Let me guess: the three positions are Off, On-by-Itself and On-When-The-
Doors-Are-Open. A little creative wiring and you can reproduce this with
other aftermarket lights, as someone else mentioned.

The confusing thing about the interior lights is that they're on a
switched _ground_ circuit, instead of a switched power circuit like 
practically everything else. You use the orange always-hot circuit 
for power, and if you ground the black wire straight to the body at 
that point, only that light goes on. If you tap into the (um... white?) 
wire which collects the grounds for all the other interior lights on the
circuit, it will go on with all the other lights when somebody opens a 
door and triggers one of the pin switches in the door jamb. So getting
back to the Cool Three Way Switch example you cited, the way that would
be wired would be:

Off: Ground wire connects nowhere (i.e. isolated; switched off)
On-By-Itself: Ground wire goes straight to ground in sheet metal
On-When-The-Doors-Are-Open: Ground wire connects to white interior
light circuit common-ground wiring; whenever that grounds, all go on 

Clear as mud now?  :-)

>I'll be reqiring it when I redo the interior and put a hidden radar 
>detector up there...

Funny you should mention that; Bryce has some photos of my T-top remote
radar and tach overhead installation that are waiting to be scanned for
the web page.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 11:53:51 -0300
Subject: Re: H/O sighted; replacing radiator

>One strange thing, the lower sections of the body, the parts that were painted
>gray were not smooth, but had a textured look.  It was even throughout the
>bottom of the car on both sides.  Was this a factory feature?

Yes, as someone else mentioned, it's a textured clearcoat stone guard.
Even the lowliest Chevettes get this stuff applied. Works all right, IMHO,
but on dark-colored cars it's a royal pain to get dried wax out of all the
crevices.

>I am replacing the radiator in my '71 CS.  I bought a new heavy duty 4-row
>unit from a local shop, and when we tried to put it in the car, it
>didn't sit low enough.  It turns out that the new rad has a drainage valve
>on the bottom of the tank, directly down below the filler spout.  This valve
>was hitting the shelf or body piece below where the rad sits, so it
>wouldn't sit in there correctly.  Anyone else run into this problem?

Only when the dingbats shipped me the wrong replacement. I.e. AFAIK the
crossmember is the same regardless of radiator for that particular car,
but it's easiest when you're doing a straight swap and can match the old
to the new. If you're upgrading to a 4-row, I guess you could still use
the "footing" of the old one for comparison, though, even if it's smaller
than the new one. Uh, would the rubber supports be different as well?

>My current plan is to take both the old and new radiators to
>the rad shop and exchange for one that compares more closely to the old
>one.

Second that idea.

>Now my only problem is, how do I plug the transmission line, or what
>do I use to plug it for an entire day while I take the radiators with me to
>the shop?  Any suggestions?

To be honest I don't remember that I bothered to plug it since nothing was
dribbling out by itself, but if you want to, I would use either a couple of
old wooden golf tees pressed into place, or splurge a couple of bucks on a
little set of plugs made for the purpose: you get about six different sizes
on a bead-chain (like a key ring), and just stick in whichever ones fit.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Blaine Sanders 5483 <BLAINES@strata3d.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:45:31 -0300
Subject: Re: '72 Cutlass Supreme owner... -Reply

Helluva nice site you got there! (www.442.com)  Lotsa great info.  Hey,
who's that chick on the welcome page?  She looks a lot like my first
girlfriend...  

- -BS

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:48:01 -0300
Subject: Re: H/O sighted; replacing radiator

> >Now my only problem is, how do I plug the transmission line, or what
> >do I use to plug it for an entire day while I take the radiators with me to
> >the shop?  Any suggestions?

Didn't plug mine. For as the esteemed Mr. Green metioned earlier, nothing was
coming out (slight dribble maybe). I just put a sandwich baggy over the open end
with a tight rubber band. This caught all the fluid dribbles and kept dirt and
bugs out until I put the rad back in.

 				Pat Clark
    				 69 442
    			        400/TH400
    			  clark@abu.dseg.ti.com

     The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 14:09:04 -0300
Subject: Re: 70 88 duals xman revisited

> At 04:52 PM 6/21/96 -0300, Chris Brown Witt wrote:
> >Anybody KNOW for sure the casting code and/or number for a LH duals xst
> >manifold for a 70 88 such as W33 car?

Jason Writes:
> The Mitchell Interchange Manual that I have gives the following casting #'s:
> 1970 455, 390hp Dual Exhaust
> LH: 406199
>
> *this manifold can be found on the following cars:
> Olds 65-66, 425, LH, Dual Exh
> Olds 67, 425, Dual Exh, LH
> Olds 68-69, 455, Dual Exh, LH
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Olds 70, 455, 390HP, LH

That's funny, the '69 big car 455 I just recently picked up has not a 406199 LH
xst manifold, but an "S" manifold, the number of which escapes me right now.
The mystery is still thick...
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: ndg@traverse.com (Nielsen Design Group)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 14:10:31 -0300
Subject: Olds goodies for sale 

Hello all,
Found these things while surfing ads looking
for a '68 posi 3.42:1 or so rearend (anyone?).
Appropriate to post here?

have three genuine 1956 Olds Starfire
                 15" spinner hubcaps, vg street condition, $75. Have spoiler
                 for 1978-81 Trans Am, $50. All prices + S&H to your location.
                 Call 704.758.4500 from noon-6 p.m. ET.    (5/9)
                  Email: tarkas@twave.net

 Big block Olds? Pistons, rods, rings-GM part#386040.
                 4.190" across piston-dished dome. All for $35.  (4/24)
                  Email: QYGH84A@prodigy.com

 1949 Oldsmobile block, crank, pistons and various parts in
                  restorable condition. Block is in good shape. Trade for
                  Ford 351 Cleveland block and other Cleveland parts.
                  1949 LaSalle 3-speed manual transmission, restorable.
                  Trade for ?
                  Please call if you think you have anything worth trading.
                  Darren, 415-855-9073 (CA)-leave message. (3/11)


Nielsen Design Group
114 East Front Street
Traverse City, Michigan 49684
616.946.0925
ndg@traverse.com

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 17:15:02 -0300
Subject: Re: T-tops & interior lights

Andrew C. Green wrote:
> 
> If you tap into the (um... white?) wire which collects the grounds for 
> all the other interior lights on the circuit, it will go on with all 
> the other lights when somebody opens a door and triggers one of the pin 
> switches in the door jamb.

RELATED TECH NOTE: By connecting more pin-switches to the common-ground 
wiring, you can have additional trips for interior lighting such as rear 
doors on the 4-doors (which for some reason rarely seems to have the 
switches) or a hatchback.  Have done this to many of my vehicles over the 
years including van side and rear doors.

Also note that adding lights MAY require you to change the fuse to one 
with a slightly higher rating (but additional pin-switches wouldn't).

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 17:20:33 -0300
Subject: Re: GM - Oldsmobile Home Page

Lloyd Culp wrote:
> 
> I'm sure that you recommended teh ressurrection of the Toronado - 
> possibly something like a Riviera W/Aurora drivetrain properly modified 
> to 375 horses.

Yeah, that sounds real good to me.  I've noticed the front fender line of 
the Riviera has a bit of a edge to it.  A little modification to the 
fenders and a front end treatment similar to the early Toros and I gettin 
in line!

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:12:45 -0300
Subject: Re: T-tops & interior lights 

>Also note that adding lights MAY require you to change the fuse to one 
>with a slightly higher rating

...and those of you who stuck a penny in the fusebox may need to upgrade
to a nickel.  :-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 17:24:20 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds goodies for sale

Nielsen Design Group wrote:
> 
> Hello all,
> Found these things while surfing ads looking
> for a '68 posi 3.42:1 or so rearend (anyone?).
> Appropriate to post here?

Leads are always appriciated.  

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Blaine Sanders 5483 <BLAINES@strata3d.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 14:30:38 -0300
Subject: T-tops & interior lights -Reply

>The rear-view mirror on that car has map lights on the underside that,

Wow!  What a novel idea.  My '72 Cutlass Supreme came with one of
those...  Unfortunately, I just swapped it out to one with no lights,
because it was so loose that no matter how tight you tightened the
screw, it would still fall down.  There must have been a "Shitload o'
Lights" option back then...

- -BS

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 15:26:45 -0300
Subject: Radiator Stuff (was: H/O sighted; replacing radiator) 

I am replacing the radiator in my '71 CS.  I bought a new heavy duty 4-row 
unit from a local shop, and when we tried to put it in the car, it
didn't sit low enough....

          I've done the 4-row swap into a number of 68-72 Cutlass/442 
          bodies over the years.  I've always been out for the most 
          cooling capability I could get, so I've tried to get Olds 98 
          radiators ("what's the biggest Olds 98 with air radiator you 
          can get?").  Most radiator shops have catalogs with pages 
          and pages of different configurations with all dimentions.  
          It turns out that the core (as opposed to the end tanks) has 
          the same length and width for virtually all Olds 
          applications of that vintage (can't vouch for the odd-Toro, 
          though :), with the only differnce in the thickness.  Also, 
          all of these radiators have the drain plug facing the 
          engine, not the crossmember.  This leads me to believe that 
          you have been given the wrong unit (that _never_ happens!).
          
          I _have_ had to make some mods to the crossmember, however.  
          It turns out that the tanks (and cores, however the radiator 
          is supported at the flange where the core is soldered to the 
          tanks) on these 4-row units are wider than the rubber 
          isolators on the crossmember and upper plate, with the 
          result that the radiator will not fit all the way down into 
          these isolators.  This is especially true if you are 
          starting with a car which originally had a 2-row radiator.  
          These rubber isolators fit into U-shaped metal brackets 
          which are spot welded to the crossmember and which are 
          formed into the top plate.  I'm sure it's possible to find 
          the correct crossmember and top plate, but failing that, 
          I've found that the judicious application of a two pound 
          sledge hammer will customize the brackets.
          
          The best way to do this is to first remove the rubber 
          isolators, then flatten the metal brackets on the 
          crossmember. It is only necessary to bent the forward leg of 
          the brackets.  The rubber isolators can then be reinstalled. 
          They are held in place with molded-in bosses which are 
          pushed into holes in the brackets.  The bosses which fit 
          into the forward leg of the bracket will obviously no longer 
          fit and should be cut off of the isolator.  The single rear 
          boss will be sufficient, as the assembly is captured by the 
          radiator once it is in place.  Repeat this process on the 
          upper brackets and the new thicker radiator will drop into 
          place.
          
          The trans cooler lines should mate right up.  One thing to 
          be aware of when selecting a new radiator, however, is the 
          diameter of the inlet and outlet bosses.  If they are 
          different from your original unit, you may need to scan a 
          radiator hose catalog for correct hoses.  This is not a big 
          deal, as this radiator _was_ used on another Olds, so the 
          correct diameter hoses should be available.
          
          As I said, I've done this on several A-body cars and have 
          never seen the temperature go over 190, even with the feeble 
          four-bladed fan and the shroud missing!
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 15:30:45 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds goodies for sale 

          
 Big block Olds? Pistons, rods, rings-GM part#386040.
                 4.190" across piston-dished dome. All for $35.  (4/24)
                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^
                  
                  Is that like jumbo shrimp?
                  
                  Joe Padavano
                  jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
                  
                  66 442
                  68 W-30
                  69 H/O
                  70 W-30

          
          
          

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 14:02:13 -0300
Subject: Re: The Final Oil Down!!! 

> Brad, I use 10W40 Vavoline to break in my engines for 500 miles. 

Okay...

>Then I switch to 20W50 Vavoline.  I run that for 1000 more miles
>to protect my engines.

I think you lost me here. Why the upgrade in viscosity? And what
are you protecting your engines against for that 1000 miles? 
Just curious...

>As for redline, I use 
>their water wetter additive and boy does it make a difference.  Many
>racers in this area use Redline and found it to be a very good and 
>helpful product.

Agreed; I heard a lot of good stuff about this on the British cars
list back when I was on that...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 15:37:41 -0300
Subject: Re: Radiator Stuff (was: H/O sighted; replacing radiator)

Last week we had the rad out of my '68. Donnie (mechanic par excellance) 
had a neat set of little c-clamp type things for sealing the trans cooler 
lines. Looked like torture thumbscrews or whatever, except they had 
little rubber nipples on one end to seal the lines and a slot in the 
other end to grab the fitting on the line. Neat.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 15:33:09 -0300
Subject: Re: GM - Oldsmobile Home Page

On Mon, 8 Jul 1996 BRAD.NICHOLSON@s3abac8.ssa.gov wrote:
>      transfer rate seemed real slow.  You definetely need the ShockWave and 
>      Quicktime VR add ons for Netscape Navigator to make the site "move".  
>      Their address is of course: http://www.oldsmobile.com

Yes, I found it very slow as well. Have you actually been able to get 
Shockwave to work OK? (I haven't yet tried QT VR). I downloaded that 
piece of s*** months ago and it has never worked right, even with 
correspondence from it's creator, Macrovision (who have now stopped 
responding to my email messages). Their last suggestion was to re-download 
and re-install Netscape 2.x again, then re-download and re-install 
Shockwave. Only a couple of hours of connect time I figure. No thanks!

Seriously, has anyone here found that software to work ok? Did you have 
to do anything trick to set it up? I'd love to see the Olds site in all 
it's glory... 

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Blaine Sanders 5483 <BLAINES@strata3d.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 15:42:07 -0300
Subject: Re: '72 Cutlass Supreme owner... -Reply

>First project is to drain the 10 year old gas and get some fresh fuel in it. 
>Any suggestions before I start the engine for the first time in several
>years?

*** WARNING ***
This muther-scratcher is l-o-n-g...

I'm no mechanical wizzard, but I'd be pretty suprised if it even turns over
after ten years.  Mine sat for three years (because I didn't have my
driver's licence or a job), and according to the previous owner, it now
runs better than it did before he sold it to me.  This is what I did, and
what I suggest...  

First, check the oil level to make sure there's something there.  If there is,
it's likely some kind of black sludge.  If there's not enough, add some until
there is.  Next, Throw a battery in it and see if it will turn over.  Don't try
and start it, just see if it turns.  If it turns over, stop and change the oil
and filter.  Make sure you drain it completely.  Undoubtedly, there will be
a ton of thick stuff in the bottom of your oil pan.  Your best bet would be
to drop the pan, clean it out, then re-install it.  Might be a good idea to
install a new oil pump at this time, also.   If you don't do that, your next
best bet is frequent oil changes.  After my initial change, I changed it
again at 500 miles, 1000 miles, 1500 miles, then 2000 miles.  That's just to
clean out all the gunk.  Believe me, your oil will be dirty again after the
first 500 miles.  I also added a can of Engine Restorer (some sort of oil
additive that supposedly removes varnish and restores compression),
though some people are of the oppinion that oil additives do more harm
than good.  Didn't seem to cause any problems for me.  After changing
the oil (and cleaning out oil pan, if you decide to), make sure you check
the other fluids (cooling, brake, tranny, etc).  You'll definately want some
fresh gas.  You'd probably be wise to install a new fuel filter.  It wouldn't
be a bad idea to install an in-line fuel filter somewhere between your gas
tank and fuel pump, unless you want to clog up your fuel pump with
debris from the tank.  I'd recommend checking both filters after your first
tank or two of clean gas.  Even if you drop the gas tank and clean it out,
there will probably be lingering debris that will detach itself througout the
first few weeks of use.  I would run your tanks down as low as you
dare to clean out all the stuff that settles at the bottom.  I would also for
the first few tanks add some fuel additives.  Pick the ones that clean
your carb injectors, reduce valve-ping, etc.  This should get you going
for a while, but sooner or later (probably sooner), you'll most likely have
to change the gaskets/seals in your engine and tranny, as they've
probably dried and shrunk and will begin leaking profusely.  I don't
recommend using additives that supposedly restore those leaky seals,
because they only work temporarily, and they probably just gum things
up.  It's also a given that your carb will need rebuilt.  One day you might
pop the hood and find a big puddle of bubbling gas on your manifold.  Or
better yet, a raging fire.  I learned that the hard way.  I didn't burn up, but
I got stranded in the middle of winter at 3 AM a long way from home.  
OK, I'm almost done!!!  One more thing:  After you get the engine running,
replace the spark plugs, wires, distributor cap/points/etc., then break out
the timing light.  You should also check the fluid in the rearend.  Check 
the U-joints, and all the other driveline components.  And while you've got
the tranny down to change the seals, you might as well install a tranny
filter and clean all the junk out of your tranny pan.  After all that, she
oughtta run pretty strong.  Sooner or later, other minor things will start to
go out -- if they haven't already.  Like the water pump, brakes, etc.  If
your master brake cylinder was too far below the fill level, you'll probably
have to rebuild that or get a newly rebuilt one.  If you're going to keep
your car original, I'd rebuild the original one, because the new rebuilt one
won't look the same.  I had my mechanic friend fix my brakes for me
(after they went completely out and nearly got me killed), and he
swapped out my master cylinder for a new rebuilt.  I was pissed!  If I'd
have known he was going to do that, I'd have done it myself!  At any
rate, you've got a lot of work ahead of you if you want to avoid a major
overhaul in the near future.  But believe me, it's a lot cheaper to do all this
stuff than to have an engine overhaul.  And most of it will have to be
done anyway!  If you're engine still turns over, you should be in good
shape.  I've been driving my car for three years since I finished
doing all that, and haven't had a *single* problem since (except that my
timing chain is worn out and I have a few bent pushrods...  Good luck!

- -Blaine, and my
'72 Cutlass Supreme

P.S. - I also recommend thoroughly back-flushing the cooling system.  If
there has been any liquid in it for the past ten years, it's gonna be
severely corroded.  Check your thermostat at the same time, and replace
if nescessary.  [check thermostat by heating water to the correct temp
then drop thermostat in and see if it opens up]

------------------------------

From: tmorris@bt1dc18e.bet.ibm.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 11:49:29 -0300
Subject: Re: Anyone replaced a `72 heater core?

Agreed, replacing your heater core is not fun.  I did on my 70 Cutlass with A/C
and you basically have to remove the fenderwell and the blower assembly attached 
to the firewall.  Then from the inside the assembly covering the core has to be 
removed, although as I remember it is screwed through the firewall to the blower 
assembly on the other side.  A time consuming job, but not brain surgery.  
Probably took me at least 10 hrs of fiddling and thinking it through.
Part was around $50, in the DC area they probably would have charged at least 4 
hrs labor.  It was worth it to me to learn through doing.....

Todd Morris
  

------------------------------

From: ghude@iscp.bellcore.com (Prashant Ghude)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:18:35 -0300
Subject: Need help with heavy gas padel( 89 CUT CIERA)

Hi,

	The gas pedal on 89, Cutlass Ciera feels heavy any suggestion ?
Was used to driving 93 Corolla. Specially in city driving with speed
range of 40 - 60 pedal doesn't work smooth. Needs extra force to push
the padel( ther is resistence).


	Any helpful hints are appriciated.

Thanks

Prashant



- -- 
Prashant Ghude
Bellcore RRC 4D-351  				email : ghude@iscp.bellcore.com
444 Hoes Lane  					Tel   : 908 699-8082 (W)
Piscataway, NJ  08854-4182			        908 545-9858 (H) 

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 15:16:14 -0300
Subject: Re: '72 Cutlass Supreme owner... -Reply 

>This muther-scratcher is l-o-n-g...

And my followup would have been even longer 'cause I was going to put
the comment "Yes!" after just about every single sentence. But I won't;
just say it quietly to yourself as you reread his post. Other comments:

>Next, Throw a battery in it and see if it will turn over.  Don't try
>and start it, just see if it turns.

Pull the coil wire just to be sure it doesn't have an attack of
helpfulness and actually _start_ before we want it to.

>If you don't do that, your next
>best bet is frequent oil changes.  After my initial change, I changed it
>again at 500 miles, 1000 miles, 1500 miles, then 2000 miles.  That's just to
>clean out all the gunk.

Plan on these oil changes no matter what, at least two, 500 miles apart.
Fresh oil will bring out an impressive amount of sludge the first time
through, making the second change of oil and filter required anyway. And
if that goes black real quick, then do a third. Consider that each change
costs you _maybe_ the price of a case of beer (depending on your brand :-)
which is pretty cheap engine insurance.

I changed the oil on a friend's filthy Citation and it was black again by
the time I got down 

>I also added a can of Engine Restorer (some sort of oil
>additive that supposedly removes varnish and restores compression),
>though some people are of the oppinion that oil additives do more harm
>than good.

I'm not sure that the crankcase flush is in the same category as additives;
it's pretty much solvent to thin the old oil and (theoretically) dissolve
sludge, whereas miracle additives such as Slick-50 are more concerned with
allegedly treating metal surfaces, etc. Your interest at this point is
purely in sludge removal.

>for a while, but sooner or later (probably sooner), you'll most likely have
>to change the gaskets/seals in your engine and tranny, as they've
>probably dried and shrunk and will begin leaking profusely.

Agreed; I think it's safe to say that _something_ is going to break/leak/
burst/fall-off/catch-fire/have-I-missed-anything the first time the car
starts, then the first time the car moves, then the first time the car
goes on a trip, etc. Accept this concept before you start and it will be
a lot less painful for you later.  :-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 15:32:32 -0300
Subject: Re: Anyone replaced a `72 heater core? 

>Agreed, replacing your heater core is not fun.  I did on my 70 Cutlass with
>A/C and you basically have to remove the fenderwell and the blower assembly
>attached to the firewall.

Another long-winded AndyGram here:  :-)

Okay, I did this on our '72 LeMans (Cutlass sister car) and I've found
some old notes that I sent somebody a while back when I was working on
the blower motor, accessed the same way. Regarding the wheel well area:

>Time for another blower. Normally I just get rebuilt units with 7-year
>warranties from Trak Auto, but in this particular case I would suggest you
>buy a new one, due to the difficult installation.
>
>> How do I get to the problem?  Do I have to remove the fender skirt?
>> I believe the blower motor is accessed from the outside.  Where is
>> the blower motor?  Is it mounted on the firewall, or in the evaporator
>> assembly.
>
>It's on the front side of the evaporator housing, tucked more or less
>below the passenger's side hood hinge. HOWEVER, despite what another net
>reader said, you do not have to remove the fender or hood. Disregard that.
>You might also disregard early copies of the service manual which told you
>to cut (!) an access hole in the wheel well shroud to get at it.
>
>What you do is remove the bolts on the lower/back half of the fender and
>swing it outwards. This gives you enough access to reach up from under it,
>sitting/lying outside the car just rearwards of the front right wheel.
>You loosen (not sure you have to remove it) a large bolt at the bottom rear
>of the fender where it wraps under the body. Also remove the line of bolts
>leading up around the perimeter of the wheel well up to the 12-o'clock
>position of the wheel opening. Look further in to the wheel well and find 
>two or three similarly large-sized bolts which hold the wheel well itself 
>in position, located above and behind the wheel, and remove those. (Note
>that during all this, you don't necessarily have to remove the wheel.)
>If the car has rocker moldings below the doors, you will have to remove at
>least the forward-most screw which attaches the molding to the bottom of
>the fender before starting.
>
>Note that the fender bolts screw into "clip nuts". Both the bolts and the
>clip nuts are designed to shear harmlessly if they're rusted solid, so
>don't panic if that happens. Recover the pieces for comparison and just 
>toddle on over to the nearest auto parts store for new replacements.
>
>Once the rear of the fender and the wheel well are loose enough, you will
>be able to pull the bottom of the fender outwards a good five or six inches
>or more, and push the wheel well housing forwards (i.e. towards the tire).
>You can wedge pieces of wood into various spots to hold things open for you.
>The Pontiac is built with heavy sheet metal and as long as you are not a
>blithering idiot, you will not distort any parts. Take the opportunity while
>things are open to clear packed debris and mud from the bottom of the fender
>and wheel well.

[sermon about replacing the blower deleted, but if you're doing all this
to get at the heater core, you MightAsWell (tm) plan to put a new blower
in, because by the time you get this far, you will be swearing to yourself
that you _never_ want to do _this_ again.]

Back to you:

>Then from the inside the assembly covering the core has to be 
>removed, although as I remember it is screwed through the firewall to the
>blower assembly on the other side.

Well, to the evaporator/heater core housing, yes. From what I remember,
there is a line of bolts around the perimeter of the core housing, _some_
of which hold the housing to the firewall, others which do double duty and
hold the heater core housing on the inside as well, going through to the 
other side. I _think_ there is a subtle size difference, or possibly a
mixture of simple bolts in some locations and nuts screwed onto studs at
others. I found once I had it all apart that I really only needed to unscrew
one of the two types of fasteners found; I think it was the nut/stud
combinations. The regular bolts only hold the evaporator housing to the 
firewall and unscrewing those gets you nothing. You only need to unbolt the
bigger ones which will free the core housing inside the car. Look carefully
first and you might be able to skip messing around with fasteners that you 
don't need to undo.

>A time consuming job, but not brain surgery.  
>Probably took me at least 10 hrs of fiddling and thinking it through.
>Part was around $50, in the DC area they probably would have charged at 
>least 4 hrs labor.  It was worth it to me to learn through doing...

Very well said.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Graham Stewart <graham.stewart@utoronto.ca>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 19:44:17 -0300
Subject: Re: 70 88 duals xman revisited

On Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:09:04 -0400 Chris Brown Witt wrote:

> From: Chris Brown Witt <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
> Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:09:04 -0400
> Subject: Re: 70 88 duals xman revisited
> To: wittchri@pilot.msu.edu, oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
> 
> > At 04:52 PM 6/21/96 -0300, Chris Brown Witt wrote:
> > >Anybody KNOW for sure the casting code and/or number for a LH duals xst
> > >manifold for a 70 88 such as W33 car?
> 
> Jason Writes:
> > The Mitchell Interchange Manual that I have gives the following casting #'s:
> > 1970 455, 390hp Dual Exhaust
> > LH: 406199
> >
> > *this manifold can be found on the following cars:
> > Olds 65-66, 425, LH, Dual Exh
> > Olds 67, 425, Dual Exh, LH
> > Olds 68-69, 455, Dual Exh, LH
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > Olds 70, 455, 390HP, LH
> 
> That's funny, the '69 big car 455 I just recently picked up has not a 406199 LH
> xst manifold, but an "S" manifold, the number of which escapes me right now.
> The mystery is still thick...
> --
> Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
> wittchri@pilot.msu.edu


Hi..
According to my GM 62-71 Olds Parts Catalog, 406199 is the correct number for 350 
360 380 series with a 455 "performance package" engine LH xst manifold.  The 
number for the regular 455 (without duals) is 393384.  These numbers were not 
used originally on any other years, however by the late 70s part number 406199 
had superceded prior 425 and 455 engines with dual exhaust.  So if you drove your 
65 98 with duals into a GM dealer in 1981 to get the LH manifold replaced, you'd 
get 406199, even though the original number was 387297.  This is why Mitchell 
lists it that way.  Confusing, eh?

If you're looking for the original casting for a 70 88 with the W33 performance 
engine, 406199 is the correct number.  All this information only applies to full size 
Olds (88 98 Toro), by the way.  At the moment I don't have the material on Cutlass's

Of course the left hand manifolds have been hard to find for a while it seems, so if 
someone put on the single manifold (393384) and had the exhaust pipe custom 
build to fit it, that would be another explanation.  If you send me the numbe you 
have, I'll try to find its original application.

Good Luck .....


graham.stewart@utoronto.ca

------------------------------

From: Graham Stewart <graham.stewart@utoronto.ca>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 19:44:17 -0300
Subject: Re: 70 88 duals xman revisited

On Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:09:04 -0400 Chris Brown Witt wrote:

> From: Chris Brown Witt <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
> Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:09:04 -0400
> Subject: Re: 70 88 duals xman revisited
> To: wittchri@pilot.msu.edu, oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
> 
> > At 04:52 PM 6/21/96 -0300, Chris Brown Witt wrote:
> > >Anybody KNOW for sure the casting code and/or number for a LH duals xst
> > >manifold for a 70 88 such as W33 car?
> 
> Jason Writes:
> > The Mitchell Interchange Manual that I have gives the following casting #'s:
> > 1970 455, 390hp Dual Exhaust
> > LH: 406199
> >
> > *this manifold can be found on the following cars:
> > Olds 65-66, 425, LH, Dual Exh
> > Olds 67, 425, Dual Exh, LH
> > Olds 68-69, 455, Dual Exh, LH
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > Olds 70, 455, 390HP, LH
> 
> That's funny, the '69 big car 455 I just recently picked up has not a 406199 LH
> xst manifold, but an "S" manifold, the number of which escapes me right now.
> The mystery is still thick...
> --
> Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
> wittchri@pilot.msu.edu


Hi..
According to my GM 62-71 Olds Parts Catalog, 406199 is the correct number for 350 
360 380 series with a 455 "performance package" engine LH xst manifold.  The 
number for the regular 455 (without duals) is 393384.  These numbers were not 
used originally on any other years, however by the late 70s part number 406199 
had superceded prior 425 and 455 engines with dual exhaust.  So if you drove your 
65 98 with duals into a GM dealer in 1981 to get the LH manifold replaced, you'd 
get 406199, even though the original number was 387297.  This is why Mitchell 
lists it that way.  Confusing, eh?

If you're looking for the original casting for a 70 88 with the W33 performance 
engine, 406199 is the correct number.  All this information only applies to full size 
Olds (88 98 Toro), by the way.  At the moment I don't have the material on Cutlass's

Of course the left hand manifolds have been hard to find for a while it seems, so if 
someone put on the single manifold (393384) and had the exhaust pipe custom 
build to fit it, that would be another explanation.  If you send me the numbe you 
have, I'll try to find its original application.

Good Luck .....


graham.stewart@utoronto.ca

------------------------------

From: Doug Ahern <doug@cobra.cosmic.uga.edu>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:53:53 -0300
Subject: Re: Need help with heavy gas padel( 89 CUT CIERA)

>       The gas pedal on 89, Cutlass Ciera feels heavy any suggestion ?
> Was used to driving 93 Corolla. Specially in city driving with speed
> range of 40 - 60 pedal doesn't work smooth. Needs extra force to push
> the padel( ther is resistence).
> 
>       Any helpful hints are appriciated.

buy heavier shoes..  most people who switch from imports to GM have
to do this,,   GM Goodwrench sells a stylish pair in 8-13mens, Thom
McHann sells the same pair for $30 less. either that or go to a junkyard
and find a corolla gas pedal and epoxy it to the top of your Oldsmobile
gas pedal.   


Doug Ahern      doug@cosmic.uga.edu  1964 F-85 Cutlass 
http://www.cosmic.uga.edu/doug.html  1969 Dart 
Sys Admin, COSMIC, Univ. of Georgia  1974 Satellite ex-cop car

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 20:08:57 -0300
Subject: Re: GM - Oldsmobile Home Page

Greg Beaulieu wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 8 Jul 1996 BRAD.NICHOLSON@s3abac8.ssa.gov wrote:
> > transfer rate seemed real slow.  You definetely need the ShockWave 
> > and Quicktime VR add ons for Netscape Navigator to make the site 
> > "move".
> 
> Yes, I found it very slow as well. 

I though it about average.

> Their last suggestion was to re-download and re-install Netscape 2.x 
> again, then re-download and re-install Shockwave.

Typical response from technical support staffed by dorks who haven't the 
faintest idea of how any of this stuff actually works.  Those that know 
get promoted, those that don't answer phones.

> Seriously, has anyone here found that software to work ok? Did you have
> to do anything trick to set it up? I'd love to see the Olds site in all
> it's glory...

I've never bothered with the add-ons.  The internet has gotten slow 
enough and with a not-to-quick site like Olds, the last thing I want is 
the additional overhead of plug-ins.  BTW, I've yet to download one that 
worked correctly from the git-go.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 20:11:39 -0300
Subject: Re: Need help with heavy gas padel( 89 CUT CIERA)

Uh, WD-40?

The 66 Toro and Mike (ducking)


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Todd Hall <thall@en.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 17:41:50 -0300
Subject: Re: '72 Cutlass Supreme owner... -Reply 

At 03:42 PM 7/8/96 -0300, you wrote:
>>First project is to drain the 10 year old gas and get some fresh fuel in it. 
>>Any suggestions before I start the engine for the first time in several
>>years?
>
>*** WARNING ***
>This muther-scratcher is l-o-n-g...
>
<snip>

Thanks for the all the good advice!

I should have mentioned that this is(was) a freshly rebuilt engine. .030"
over 350 block, new pistons & rings (10.5 - 1), crane cam (I forget the
specs off the top of my head but it's a lumpy muther), Holly intake and 750
duel feed carb, Mallory breakerless distributer and Accel Supercoil. New
valves, springs, and pushrods. I had also replaced the waterpump, alt, and
starter. 

This engine has never been broken in since I never quite finished it. Why??
Went to college, got a job, got married...you know all the excuses. I know I
will have to replace the seals (the garage floor was a good hint) and I also
plan to do the oil changes as recommended. Would you modify or add anything
considering it's a rebuilt engine?

Thanks Again!
Todd Hall ('72 Cutlass)
thall@en.com    

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #225
********************************

