To:	oldsmobile-digest @ ccn.cs.dal.ca @ INTERNET
cc:	 
From:	oldsmobile-digest-owner @ ccn.cs.dal.ca @ INTERNET @ ABTLAB
Date:	09/01/96 10:50:35 PM
Subject:	oldsmobile-digest V1 #286


oldsmobile-digest         Sunday, 1 September 1996      Volume 01 : Number 286


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jason P. Labay" <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 22:28:21 -0300
Subject: headers on 80 Cutlass, Exhaust update 

Well I got my Flowtech Terminator mufler installed today. I had 2.5" pipe
installed from the cat back. This muffler I recommend for those who want the
muffled mean rumble. The car is suprisingly quietier than I thought it would
be. It has a nice mellow rumble at idle and as you accelerate it gets a bit
louder but not anything like my 3-chamber Flowmaster. I would call it, "A
nice sound to let your competition know you have something under that
hood..." Going from 1 3/4 exhaust to 2.5 sure does make for a horsepower
gain. The literature says an 18-30 hp gain is likely. I gave it a few test
runs and the car pulls much harder and has more power in the upper RPM's
where before it felt choked at high RPM's. Next exhaust mods will be a
bigger Y-pipe and "free flowing" Catalytic Convertor. My Z/28 passed
emissions just fine with a hollowed cat. 
__________________________________________________
Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com)
1988 IROC Z/28...............salvage yard special
1980  4-4-2 W-30.............1 of  886       OCA#027572
1975 Hurst/Olds W-25...1 of 2535  H/OCA#0278A
Just what the doctor ordered....those awesome W-Machines.

------------------------------

From: brett@actel.com
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 01:37:08 -0300
Subject: Strange Tabs on Back Seat of 72 Cutlass 

     Paul, and those assisting on this quest:
     
        Let me rehash the details of these tabs.  First, the car is a '72 
     Cutlass Supreme convertible.  There are no tabs on the front seats, but 
     one on each armrest panel and 3 on the rear seat cushion.  The armrest 
     ones are white (matching the interior).  They are probably glued or 
     sewn on (they look pretty carefully installed).  The ones on the seat 
     are black, and upon further inspection might be the tabs mentioned in 
     the Fisher manual for the B and C cars.  I tried to put a seat belt 
     (satin silver buckles and black webbing-deluxe?) into the black tabs, 
     and they could not fit.  The buckles are too wide to fit into the tabs. 
      I did not try to put the buckle ONTO the tabs, tho.  I will try this 
     and report back.  There are 2 on the right of the drive shaft hump, and 
     1 on the left.  This is consistant with the idea of securing the 3 rear 
     seat belts.  These do not have the neat installation that the white 
     ones have.  
     
        The car appears to have the original interior intact.  Based on the 
     64k miles on the car, and the sewing repairs made to the upper and 
     lower seat cushion .  The entire interior seems to have consistant 
     discoloration and wear.  
     
        I could buy the idea that a previous owner put the black tabs on to 
     try to hold the belts or they were an accessory option, but the white 
     ones on the armrest panels are really puzzling.
     
        I will be at the 'Fall Little Carlisle" in Jefferson, WI on Sun, 
     Sept. 20.  If anybody is curious about this and will be there, send me 
     a message and we can meet up. 
     
     
Brett Chaveriat                brett@actel.com 
Arlington Hts, IL
     
'72 Cutlass Supreme convt  

------------------------------

From: R4C442@aol.com
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 23:11:42 -0300
Subject: Re: Condensors & coils 

Hey John!
      You must be the resident guru on automotive ignition systems since most
of your toys are energized by the magic of the "Prince of Darkness"
himself....Mr. Lucas! By the way, nice EE-101.


   R4C442  

------------------------------

From: Frank Boerger <103454.317@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 23:26:17 -0300
Subject: FW: Redline Water Wetter: The Final Chapter?

On 8/30/96, Mike Frederick wrote :
 That Bill Shinko wrote:
>
> So, restricted by the design in most cases, I'd agree that it'd be 
> correct to say that the air (or the coolant) probably couldn't move 
> too fast to provide adequate cooling.

>And you guys didn't think we'd ever get there.   ;)

>The 66 Toro and Mike

I'm happy now.

Frank Boerger
'68 Cutlass Convertible/'68 coupe-for-parts

------------------------------

From: Brad Baker <bradbaker@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 23:59:59 -0300
Subject: Re: wheel covers

At 18:39 08/31/1996 +0000, you wrote:
>In a message dated 96-08-31 11:55:36 EDT, you write:
>
><< I have chrome
> covers with a circle of color (tan) about 1 inch wide around the edge and
> the Olds S in the middle. These are not the hottest looking covers,but if
>they
> are original,then I will keep them. >>
>
>These sound like they're from a '78 or '79.  In '68 they had 3 wheel disc
>options on the '68 Cutlass S models.  PO1 Wheel Discs are the discs that were
>standard on 88s and 98s.  Many '68 88s will have these on them.  PO2 Deluxe
>Wheel Discs were the optional discs on the 88s and 98s.  Many '68 98 will
>have these.  PA1 Special Wheel Discs were optional only on Cutlass S coupes &
>convertibles and 442 models. These discs are rarely seen and remind me of the
>wheel discs that were worm by Mavericks of the early '70s (Oldses were better
>looking).   Also available were N95 Simulated Wire Wheels (Discs). These were
>optional on everything except 98s and Toronados.  Then there was always the
>PO5 Super Stock Wheel option...
>
>Paul
>

Paul,
Thanks for this info.Now I will have to look around for the right covers.If
the Super Stock wheels were a valid option for that year,then they will
probably be my first choice. Also,thanks to everyone that replied to question!!

Brad-'68...Still the Best Looking Model!>

------------------------------

From: Cdrpaulson@aol.com
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 00:32:22 -0300
Subject: 70 442, 71 SX CONV 

Hi everybody, 

You may remember a couple of weeks back that I purchased a 71 SX Convertible
body to replace my tired and rusty old Buffalo NY 442 conv body.  Well, happy
news!  It has arrived!  It's a pristine 71 SX body from Arizona that the guys
at 'The Parts Place" in Chicago hooked me with (for a price!!).  Anyway, is
it just my imagination, or are the 71 rear quarters flared more than on the
70??  It could be that the 70 442's quarter wheel wells have been modified as
part of a repair.  In any case, the 71 SX has very distinguishable wheel
flares where my 70 442 does not.  In fact, there are other subtle differences
between the two bodies.  Can one of you officianados out there provide me
with a list of significant differences between the 70 and the 71  "A" body
convertibles?

Also, I will be converting the new body to a non-AC car.  Do any of you have
any good suggestions for a course of action (besides converting to AC)??

Tanks
Steve (with the 70 442 conv in many parts & pieces that I hope will be
beautiful one day....we all know it will be powerful!) Paulson.

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 16:59:44 -0300
Subject: Re: DOT 5 Brake Fluid Conversion

Andrew C. Green wrote:
> 
> 
> *ahem*
> 
> I don't know where Mike gets that idea of his in the post he's about to
> write, but I've never seen that happen before; in fact that directly
> contradicts my experience with my '72 LeMans, which _never_ did that.
> To prove this, set up a simple experiment involving all the previous
> items Mike mentioned. In order for Mike's theory to be true, if you
> applied heat the hamster should burst into flames, when in actual fact
> only the chocolate melts when the lobster falls into the intake.
> 
> Let the discussion begin!
> 
> Andrew C. Green         


Andy,

My experience verifies the very same thing.  Mike doesn't know what he 
is thinking about, let alone what he may talk about.

Why are we flaming Mike anyway?  Isn't that left tor Greg (Sparky)?

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

PS:  I liked your criticism of my DOT 5 message.  I'll think about it 
even though I am sure that you are wrong.

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 16:32:02 -0300
Subject: Re: New OCA Chapter Forming: Baltimore, MD 

Brad Nicholson wrote:
> 

> I'm going to start a new chapter of OCA,  Baltimore will probably be the 
focal point,
>
> 
> Also, anybody got any ideas for names.  Here's a couple from the top of my 
head:

> MOOG  - Maryland Oldsmobile Owners Group
> MOO   - Maryland Oldsmobile Owners
> CCR   - Charm City Rockets (Charm City being Baltimore's 'Official' nickname)
> CBR   - Chesapeake Bay Rockets
> ROM   - Rockets Over Maryland
> CSO   - Crab State Olds (We're known for our blue crabs)
> MRC   - Maryland Rockets Club
> MOC   - Maryland Oldsmobile Chapter (or Club)
> OCM   - Oldsmobile Club of Maryland
> MROC  - Maryland Rocketeers Oldsmobile Club
> TTCOC - Terrapin Turnpike Cruisers Oldsmobile Club (Univ of MD Terps Sports
> Teams)
> OAM   - Oldsmobiles Annonymous of Maryland
> 
> Remember - Francis Scott Key was the first Oldsmobile hobbyist. It's in the 
Star
> Spangled Banner:
> "The rockets red glare, Buicks bursting in air" or something like that.
> 
> Thanks in advance for all the bandwidth to come.   8^}
> 
>  ---
> | | | Brad Nicholson


Brad,

I believe that I like Chesapeake Bay rockets as well as any.  Nothing 
original to me comes to mind.

Good luck w/the club.  Those things are real work.  Expect several 
years of dedication & plenty of me too's, but little help.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 16:35:04 -0300
Subject: Re: New Baby Coming - LSS

Brad Nicholson wrote:
> 
> Through no luck of my own, I'll be the proud step father to a 1994 88 LSS in 
2
> weeks.  This one has a little over 55K on it and it is coming from my wife's
> cousin's wife who got a new job w/ company car.  It's champagne
> & leather interior w/ all the bells and whistles.  It's not an Aurora, or a
> Toronado, but I'LL TAKE IT!!!! Price - $11,500
> 
> Tell ya how it drives after delivery.  I'll switch everything to Synthetic,
> cause the miles aint to high.  Prior driving style was 80% highway.
> 
> Can I become a pseudo Toro fanatic - it is FWD. Please.
> 
>  ---
> | | | Brad Nicholson
> | | | 1987 442 W-42
> |/|\| 1994 88 LSS (soon)
> | | | President - Capitol City Rockets (thru 12\97)
>  ---  76062.3042@compuserve.com


Brad,

Pretenders will always be pretenders.  They are related though & it 
shows where the concept has gotten.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: michel@avn-net.com (Michel Losier)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 20:04:09 -0300
Subject: unsubscribe

Please unsubscribe me, thank you.  (great info just too much of it at once
though)

------------------------------

From: "Jason P. Labay" <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 01:13:38 -0300
Subject: Headers on an 80 Cutlass (this note) 

Sorry about the last subject line being misleading. Has anybody installed
headers on a 78-87 G-body? Is this a monumental task or can it be done
fairly easy? I want to put some on but have heard that these cars are a pain
for headers. Does the engine need raised? Thanks....
__________________________________________________
Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com)
1988 IROC Z/28...............salvage yard special
1980  4-4-2 W-30.............1 of  886       OCA#027572
1975 Hurst/Olds W-25...1 of 2535  H/OCA#0278A
Just what the doctor ordered....those awesome W-Machines.

------------------------------

From: "Jason P. Labay" <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 01:13:42 -0300
Subject: Originality advice (car shows) 

My 80 442 has a few "problems" that make it difficult for me to compete in
unmodified completely stock original categories at car shows. I do not want
to do any mods to this car that can not be taken back as the car is too rare
to fool with. Here are the problems the car has: dealer installed rear
spoiler, badges on the fender instead of sail panel,' 79 taillights, missing
interior 442 emblem on right door and now my aftermarket exhaust system with
welded on chrome tailpipes. What do originality judges look for? I want to
stay original, but if I have no chance of placing at shows I will do mild
mods to the car to compete in modified classes (such as engine chrome, etc.)
The badges can be moved back to the sail panel and the spoiler removed, but
then the car needs repainted (no money for that). I have heard that 3 minor
mods are allowed in "original" classes. Do I stand a chance or should I go
to modified classes? Eventually down the road I will do a frame off on this
car back to 100% original...say 10-15 years. Thanks.....
__________________________________________________
Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com)
1988 IROC Z/28...............salvage yard special
1980  4-4-2 W-30.............1 of  886       OCA#027572
1975 Hurst/Olds W-25...1 of 2535  H/OCA#0278A
Just what the doctor ordered....those awesome W-Machines.

------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 02:44:40 -0300
Subject: Re:Original  wheel covers 

We have a local guy here who deals only in hubcaps & wheels.  He has the
factory manual style pages for each year - all available hubcaps, every
make, model etc.  I went to him to get factory correct ones for my '72 Vista
Cruiser and they were $10 each  (original) and in excellent condition , with
one slightly dinged one.  If your interested, I'll hunt up his number.  


>
Lisa Madsen

Heavy Metal Forever - '67 Delta 88 & '72 Vista Cruiser

Please E-Mail me at-----:  Lisa@hotglass.com

My Web-Page-----:  http://exo.com/~jht/olds/lisa.htm


                   \\\\\\|/////
                    \\ - - //
                    ( 0 0 )
      ----oooO--(_)--Oooo---


          .oooO
             (   )    Oooo.
       ----- \  (----(   )--------
               \_)    )  /
                      (_/   
           Hang in there!!

------------------------------

From: robert frasher <frasher@alaska.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 03:37:55 -0300
Subject: W-43 

       Does any one have info on the W-43. (the 455ci 4 valve hemi the good
doc was playing with in the early days) I dont want to date my self but
about 20 years ago I was talking to a guy who retired from GM and had worked
on that project. He had told me that because of the new smog reg's they
canceld the idea of it being a production line item. but they didnt destroy
the molds. olds wanted to set up an after market connection and with the
right part number two arms and a leg these hemi heads could be yours.
Needless to say this guy has long since died off and I no longer have the
part number. So does any body know who I could talk to about these heads.
And yes I'v tryed our local GM dealer. The parts counter is run by pimple
faced morons who wouldnt know the diffrence between a W-30 and WD-40. By the
way I own a 69 W-30 that came from the factory with a ford 3-speed top
loader. I'v had this car since day one so I know thats the way it was built.
The packing slip says the same thing the tranie does FO MO CO. So how many
of these GM-ford hybreads were made??? 

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 10:02:45 -0300
Subject: Re: wheel covers

You know, something about checking on Brad's wheel cover question just 
struck me... 

My favorite Olds wheel for this generation was the SSI. I have seen it on 
'66 and '67 models and believe it was introduced in '66. I have also seen 
it on '70 and '71 Cutlasses. But in looking thru my literature to answer 
Brad's question I see no mention of a SSI for '68, just SSII. Is this 
just an oversight or were they not offered that year?

BTW, Brad, where are you located?

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 10:17:36 -0300
Subject: '67 4-4-2 Convertible Found!

The other night we got a tip that there was a '67 4-4-2 convertible 
lurking around these parts. This is rare because these weren't normally 
sold here until the '68 models came out. So the Olds lugnuts went on a 
quest. It lives in a remote suburban part of town down at the end of a 
one-lane road. It was early evening and getting dark but we eventually found 
it. 

As near as we can tell it is a mostly original car, owned by the same guy
since new or nearly so. White, white top, black interior. It is driven
regularly during the summer but needs work, maybe lots of it. Certainly
looks neglected. But not hacked or rodded out. We weren't able to talk to
the owner so we can't say what it might need mechanically. Bodywise it
needs paint and a top but it appears solid, chrome isn't bad and no
obvious rust problems. Don't know if I would want this over the '70 or '71
SX convertible but I'd guess that in terms of rarity it certainly would be
a car worth investing some money in. Since it isn't currently for sale
that's an academic question anyway. But what a unique car it would be! I
can picture it now, shiny and restored, at an OCA Nats someday... :)

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: kissrulz@gnn.com (Craig Dobbins)
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 06:43:12 -0300
Subject: Body Repair Work Questions 

Hello,
  On my '68 442 convertable, (which has not been restored yet) all of the 
panels (except for the doors) have rot in them right behind the wheel wells.  
I of course would like new rust free body panels, and the fenders arent too 
hard to come by, however the convertable Q-panels are almost impossible.  I 
now many of you are saying that the reproduction stuff is available, but as 
far as the convertable Q-panels go, LOTS of welding work must be done on them 
to make them fit correctly (not counting planing off the extension that goes 
up to the hardtop roof - convert. Q-panels aren't made, just hardtop).  So my 
question is, should I bondo or metal patch?  And if I do metal patch, are 
there any sheet metal or paint guys out there who know how much extra this 
would cost me?  I know as far as the reproduction patches go, there are 
fender patches available, but I have never seen Q-panel patch panels 
advertised anywhere, and I have tons of catalogs for my car.  If anyone knows 
about Q-panel patch panels that are available, I'd sure like to know about 
it.  Anyway, that's my question.  What's up guys, whadda ya think???

                                                  Craig Dobbins
                                                  Lockport, NY
                                                  '68 442 Convert.

------------------------------

From: Mike Hall <mikehal1@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 12:06:18 -0300
Subject: Re: wheel covers

Greg Beaulieu writes:
>Pics of a '68 Cutlass S are not too hard to find. There were several 
>pictured in ads of the period. I'd suggest haunting yard sales and flea 
>markets looking for old magazines of that time, particularly car 
>magazines and lifestyle mags like Life, True, Argosy, etc.

For any of you that go to garage sales with the wife, look for those old 
copies of National Geographic for the period that you are looking for. I 
have found several good ads as well as old Coca-Cola ads on the back 
cover...


Michael R. Hall                                  Ortonville, Michigan
E-Mail: mikehal1@ix.netcom.com                   OCA #17903
The Oldsmobile Stable:    
     1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass S, 380 horses of pure Mondello fun...
     1991 Oldsmobile Eighty-Eight Royale Broughm, the classy one...

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 04:11:32 -0300
Subject: Re: W-43

At 03:37 AM 9/1/96 -0300, you wrote:
>       Does any one have info on the W-43. 

I have some info...this is from the book "Oldsmobile, the Performance
Years", by Martyn L. Schorr.

    "The radical, four-valve-per-cylinder, 455-cubic-engine, was engineered
and developed in 1969-1970 by John Beltz, Lloyd Gill, Joe Jones, and Frank
Ball.  Rated at 500 to 550 hp at 6,500 rpm with a single Rochester Quadrajet
on an aluminum manifold, the engine was constructed with both cast-iron
heads and block and with aluminum-alloy block and heads (75 pounds lighter
than conventional 455-cubic-inch production engine).  This engine design
featured four-valves-per-cylinder with narrow angles for a super-efficient
combustion chamber design, central spark plugs, and could easily be adapted
for chain or gear-driven overhead camshafts.

    "The 455-inch-configuration block has 4.625-inch cylinder centers,
4.125-inch bore and 4.250-inch stroke.  Making use of 3.00-inch main
bearings and 2.50-inch rod journals, the engine was fitted with a
specially-prepared cast crank fitted with SAE-1140 forged steel rods, forged
10.20-to-1 pistons and riding on Morraine 400 bearings.  The four-bolt-main
block boasts two additional 5/8 inch oil drain holes.

    "Topping off this unique engine is a pair of four-valve heads with
1.750-inch intake valves (SAE-8460 steel) with 22-degree stems and
1.375-inch exhausts (214-N stainless steel) with 15-degree stems.  Special
Stellite seats, bronze-alloy guides, o-ringed plug tubes, 14-mm spark plugs,
3/8-inch pushrods, and aluminum rocker arms complete the head treatment."

That's the extent of the info in that book.  No info on part #'s.  Looks
like if you _can_ get the heads (highly unlikely, if you ask me), you'll
also need RAcovers (for those center spark plug, hemi style heads), as well
as an intake manifold (the pictures of the intake show _HUGE_ ports).  I
don't even know if they'd bolt up to a conventional block, apparently the
W-43 had a special block.  The heads look WAY different from regular heads
(duh!).

>By the
>way I own a 69 W-30 that came from the factory with a ford 3-speed top
>loader. I'v had this car since day one so I know thats the way it was built.
>The packing slip says the same thing the tranie does FO MO CO. 

That's kinda weird (suspicious...)

>So how many
>of these GM-ford hybreads were made??? 

Dunno...
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 07:52:02 -0300
Subject: Re: Originality advice (car shows)

Jason P. Labay wrote:
> 
> My 80 442 has a few "problems" that make it difficult for me to compete in
> unmodified completely stock original categories at car shows. I do not want
> to do any mods to this car that can not be taken back as the car is too rare
> to fool with. Here are the problems the car has: dealer installed rear
> spoiler, badges on the fender instead of sail panel,' 79 taillights, missing
> interior 442 emblem on right door and now my aftermarket exhaust system with
> welded on chrome tailpipes. What do originality judges look for? I want to
> stay original, but if I have no chance of placing at shows I will do mild
> mods to the car to compete in modified classes (such as engine chrome, etc.)
>I have heard that 3 minor
> mods are allowed in "original" classes. Do I stand a chance or should I go
> to modified classes? 
> __________________________________________________
> Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio 

Jason,

I only know about AACA judging rules & not specific OCA judging.  Of 
course, judging in a local show can take any form imaginable.  In AACA 
judging each non stock item gets a "0".  Condition is considered 2nd.  
If it is an important item such as an engine, that is serious.  If it is 
an emblem, no big deal.  Also consider that in AACA judging, the judge 
must know that the item is non stock.  Guessing is not allowed.  The 
chief judge may ask for authentification by the owner if there is a 
question.

Authentification may take the form of factory literature (those are 
notorious for being changed & items sometimes never produced), specific 
club (OCA) judging criteria, or other literature or documentation that 
is considered reliable.  This literature must be available at the time 
of judging.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 16:04:11 -0300
Subject: BIG TORO NEWS!

THE TORO-HEADS ARE PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE THE GRAND OPENING OF THE
 
        ***************************************************
        *                                                 *
        *     ==========  =====       ====       =====    *
        *        //     //    ||    //   ||    //    ||   *
        *       //     //     ||   //    //   //     ||   *
        *      //     //     //   //___ /    //     //    *
        *     //     ||     //   //   \\    ||     //     *
        *    //      ||    //   //     ||   ||    //      *
        *   ==        =====    ==      ==    =====        *
        *                                                 *
        *            ~   M A I L   L I S T   ~            *
        *                                                 *
        ***************************************************
 
          A COMPANION MAIL LIST TO THE ORIGINAL OLDS LIST
                  DESIGNED FOR TORO-VIRUS CARRIERS.
            NOW OLDSMOBILE MAIL LISTS ARE TWICE AS GOOD!
 
                    FOR MORE INFORMATION, GO TO
             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/torolist.html



- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 08:03:18 -0300
Subject: Re: W-43

robert frasher wrote:
> 
>       By the
> way I own a 69 W-30 that came from the factory with a ford 3-speed top
> loader. I'v had this car since day one so I know thats the way it was built.
> The packing slip says the same thing the tranie does FO MO CO. So how many
> of these GM-ford hybreads were made???

Robert,

A 'parts guy' is one of the most important persons at a dealership.  
Those kids usually don't measure up as a 'parts guy'.  A real 'parts 
guy' keeps all the old stuff & manuals, loans out things to trusted 
friends, will hunt for anything you want if given the time, gets any 
technical info or advice needed from somewhere in the back room, & will 
return what obviously can't be used.


I understand that Pontiac used this transmission for their '63 regular 
HP cars & the GTO's later.  Corvette may have even used it.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 08:20:29 -0300
Subject: Re: wheel covers

Greg Beaulieu wrote:
> 
> You know, something about checking on Brad's wheel cover question just
> struck me...
> 
> My favorite Olds wheel for this generation was the SSI. I have seen it on
> '66 and '67 models and believe it was introduced in '66. I have also seen
> it on '70 and '71 Cutlasses. But in looking thru my literature to answer
> Brad's question I see no mention of a SSI for '68, just SSII. Is this
> just an oversight or were they not offered that year?
> 
> 
> 
> Greg Beaulieu        

Greg,

My 1968 has them, but I don't know if they came on the 1968 car.  I 
added these & I believe them to be correct.  The problem w/them is that 
they don't fit around disc brakes.  when I put the disc brakes on mine I 
guess they have to go.

By the way, I have the original 2 piston discs of it, but have been 
advised to change to the newer type.  A problem w/this is that the 6" 
SSII's won't fit around the newer discs.  I like originality.  What are 
the minuses of going to the correct 2 piston brakes?

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: DELPROPO@emuvax.emich.edu
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:00:00 -0300
Subject: RE: Body Repair Work Questions 

Use the patch method, it will fill in the hole better and you will then use
bondo to finishn

------------------------------

From: jblair@exis.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:11:24 -0300
Subject: Re: Originality advice (car shows) 

At 07:52 AM 9/1/96 -0300, oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca wrote:

>Jason P. Labay wrote:
>> 
>> My 80 442 has a few "problems" that make it difficult for me to
>> compete in unmodified completely stock original categories at
>> car shows.
>> .....

Then Bill Culp wrote:
>
>Jason,
>
> I only know about AACA judging rules & not specific OCA judging.
> Of course, judging in a local show can take any form imaginable.
> In AACA judging each non stock item gets a "0".  Condition is 
> considered 2nd.  
> ......

And hense some of your decisions/problems begin.  We to show our
cars with the AACA and various Marque and general meets.

Almost everyone that doesn't purchase a AACA winner has a story
about a problem at a meet with judging.  Keep in mind that the
Judges for almost all car meets are volunteers.  One of the best
ways you can get a better insight is to start to volunteer as
a judge.  You will usually be assigned to a team of judge for
a class at a meet (AACA or other).  The most experienced person
on the team will be the captain of the team.  A team captain or
the Chief Judge (over all the teams) is the only one that is
supposed to question or touch a car.  Any team member can bring
up items for discussion amongst the team.

For AACA meets, the judging standard is to how the cars came off
the assembly line.  Therefore dealer installed options can hurt.
Due to the documentaion problems above many AACA cars end up
with evey few options installed.

Next come the problem of drivability.  For example, my Morgan.
The sports cars of the 60s did NOT have electric fans.  However,
if I want to drive my car or parade it, it will overheat unless
air temps are less that 70deg F.  So do you put on a fan?  If
you are going to an AACA meet, you had better not!  Not only will
you get 0 points, it can give you negative points.  (Remember the
higher the points the better.)

When it come to the Morgan National meets, there is another
difference.  The clubs will let you imporve the drivability of
the car.  So, now you have a car that is supposed to have a
50 year old engine (parts are expensive and hard to find.
Instead of rebuilding the original eng. up install a "updated"
or more modern (but still correct for a newer year) in the car.
Most of the time there is NO penalty.  However, the owner saved
himself a lot of time, money and trouble by not having to worry
about that 50 year old engine.

Another case in point.  My Morgan came with rubber floor mats
(similar to VW) and all the cheaper cars of the 60s.  By today's
standard very crude and not very pretty.  The newer Morgans have
gone to carpets.  So the owners of the older cars are replacing 
the rubber mats with carpet.   To someone not versed in the Marque
the car with the rubber mats looks cheap while the car with the
carpet has the appearence of being nicer and gets more points.

Usually the "Best of Show" at the Morgan Nationals is a tricked
out car.  Not like the domestics with the big tires, sway bars,
roll-en-pleated interiors and a chromed engine.  But with many
nice to have, pretty looking items, such as the carpet, a door
for the glove box, the trunk area that was originally wood - 
covered with vynal.  Thinks that just make the car look sharper.
One of the neatest examples was a fellow that made a beautiful
wooden tool box into the wooden trunk area.  But this is not
stock!

The Bricklin club has several classes at its National meets.
Stock         - less than 3 changes from production.
Semi-modified - more than 3 variances
Modified      - full bore - big dollars - engines, paint, anything
                goes.

This is probably the best way to handle the differences in owners
tastes.  I know I get very upset when I see a non-stock car win
over a stock car that the owner has fussed over to make it right
and the nonstock car just threw money at it to hide a problem.

In multi-make local meets, the problem again changes.  As you
move away from a speciality class to a general class, the judges
should have to know more about the broader range of cars.
Unfortunately, this doesn't happen.  Just the opposite.  The
judges know less.  Again my Morgan gets lumped into a class
of foreign.  Imagine competing with my 65 Morgan, against a
96 Honda civic just off the show room (<100 mi) at 6 year old
Ferrari, a VW bug that hasn't been touched in 15 years, etc.

What you end up having to do, is decide what YOU want.  If you
want to drive your car - then resign yourself to not taking 
home many trophies.  Go to the show for the fun and fellowship.
If you win a trophy so much the better.  However, it is a bitter
bill to take when show after show after show, you don't get anything.

One last comment.  One of the regional AACA meets here got smart
many years ago.  There meets are NOT judged.  Everyone gets a
trophy.  No problems.  It is one of the bigger meets in the area
because of this.  I took my Morgan to another regional AACA meet
(about 2 hours from home) several years ago.  I ended up being
placed in a class of 60 vintage cars.  I was the only sports car
there.  Felt very out of place so I've never gone back to that
meet.

Hope this sheds some more confusion on the subject.

John
John T. Blair  WA4OHZ          email:  jblair@exis.net
Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (757) 495-8229

48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget  65 Morgan 4/4 Series V
     75 Bricklin SV1   77 Spitfire

The one with the most toys, wins!

------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:21:09 -0300
Subject: Re: car show adventures

On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, Jason P. Labay wrote:

> Well I took the 80 442 to the Northern Ohio OCA show and meet some list
> members. I met Dan Gulino, Linda Zuccaro, Jeff Stanish and seen Paul
> Hartlieb but did not meet him. 


Yes, I saw Jason, and I didn't try to tell him things about his car!  :)

His car looked great.

I didn't meet Jeff Stanish, and I saw Paul's car, but not him.

It was a very good show, with 126 cars in attendance and not a cloud in 
the sky all day.



Dan Gulino

------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:25:52 -0300
Subject: Re: car show adventures

On Sat, 31 Aug 1996 PHartlieb@aol.com wrote:

> Sorry I missed you.  When I went over to your car you weren't there.  Nice
> car.  Good deal!  There was a red '57 coupe parked across the row from my car
> (the people I traveled with) and I spent all day at their car (under the
> umbrella).  Got the long distance award (after they took it away from
> somebody else - some kind of mix up - feel kind of bad about it) for driving
> 359 miles.  

Yes, I thought that fellow was very kind to give it up.  I was hoping for 
fisticuffs.  :)


>  We've had a fender shipped in from Montana (even has a cornering lite hole!)
> so the dent that you saw in my '67 98 will be gone soon!  Where was Dan?  I
> forgot what he was driving.

I had the '75 Delta 88 convertible, red, located catty-corner 
(kitty-corner?) to yours.



Dan Gulino

------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:55:56 -0300
Subject: Re: Originality advice (car shows)

On Sun, 1 Sep 1996, Jason P. Labay wrote:

> My 80 442 has a few "problems" that make it difficult for me to compete in
> unmodified completely stock original categories at car shows. I do not want
> to do any mods to this car that can not be taken back as the car is too rare
> to fool with. Here are the problems the car has: dealer installed rear
> spoiler, badges on the fender instead of sail panel,' 79 taillights, missing
> interior 442 emblem on right door and now my aftermarket exhaust system with
> welded on chrome tailpipes. What do originality judges look for? I want to
> stay original, but if I have no chance of placing at shows I will do mild
> mods to the car to compete in modified classes (such as engine chrome, etc.)

Jason,

I saw your car, and I'd hardly call it "modified."  I've always thought 
that a "dealer installed" option isn't a "modification" at all.  If your 
car could have had a spoiler put on by the dealer, then anyone else with 
an '80 442 could have had one, too.  It's like saying that a dealer 
installed a/c system, which was about the only way you could get a/c 
back in the early '60s, is a "modification."  In my mind, modifications 
are things that are done outside of the normal manufacturer-dealer-final 
consumer path a car takes.

As far as missing or incorrectly positioned emblems, I'd say those are 
more "errors" that would result in a deduction of points than true 
modifications.

Your biggest problem is the wrong-year tailights, which would result in a 
large deduction in points, unless you were claiming they were a 
modification, in which case you belong in the modified class.  

If I were you, I'd get the correct tail lights, fix the missing and/or 
misplaced emblems, leave the spoiler on the car, and enter it in 
non-modified classes.  If anyone questions the spoiler, simply inform 
them that it was available as a dealer-installed option that anyone with 
a car like yours could have purchased at the time.


> The badges can be moved back to the sail panel and the spoiler removed, but
> then the car needs repainted (no money for that). I have heard that 3 minor
> mods are allowed in "original" classes. 

I've always gotten a kick out of this description.  Who is to decide what 
is "minor" and what is not?  When does a modification go from being 
"minor" to "major" and who decides this?  Can one "major" modification 
substitute for three minor ones?  And so forth.

I've been involved with the class setup and judging at the Mid-Ohio Olds 
show for the last several years, and nothing has caused more headaches, 
arguments, confusion, and hard feelings that has the issue of "modified" 
cars.  While I have nothing against them whatsoever, I'd be perfectly 
happy to see them dropped completely from the judging at our car show.  
Let them be displayed in all their glory in a non-judged class.  That 
way, we all get to see them, and no one has to argue over whether it's 
modified or not, whether it's a "major" or "minor" modification, or how 
good the workmanship is.



Dan Gulino

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:46:40 -0300
Subject: Re:Original  wheel covers 

At 01:44 AM 9/1/96 -0400, you wrote:
>We have a local guy here who deals only in hubcaps & wheels.  He has the
>factory manual style pages for each year - all available hubcaps, every
>make, model etc.  I went to him to get factory correct ones for my '72 Vista
>Cruiser and they were $10 each  (original) and in excellent condition , with
>one slightly dinged one.  If your interested, I'll hunt up his number.  

Yes, post it! I need a single deluxe full wheelcover for a 1969 Toronado
(the rwd deluxe covers won't work, since the centers are recessed), and a
good used one for about $20 incl. shipping would be a better alternative to
a $70 NOS one from Fusick's.

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
- - 1978 Electra Limited Landau Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:17:24 -0300
Subject: Re: Originality advice (car shows)

John T. Blair wrote:
> 
> At 07:52 AM 9/1/96 -0300, oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca wrote:
> 
> >Jason P. Labay wrote:
> >>
> >> My 80 442 has a few "problems" that make it difficult for me to
> >> compete in unmodified completely stock original categories at
> >> car shows.
> >> .....
> 
> Then Bill Culp wrote:
> >
> >Jason,
> >
> > I only know about AACA judging rules & not specific OCA judging.
> > Of course, judging in a local show can take any form imaginable.
> > In AACA judging each non stock item gets a "0".  Condition is
> > considered 2nd.
> > ......
> 
> And hense some of your decisions/problems begin.  We to show our
> cars with the AACA and various Marque and general meets.
> 
> Almost everyone that doesn't purchase a AACA winner has a story
> about a problem at a meet with judging.  
> For AACA meets, the judging standard is to how the cars came off
> the assembly line.  Therefore dealer installed options can hurt.
> Due to the documentaion problems above many AACA cars end up
> with evey few options installed.
> 
> Next come the problem of drivability.  For example, my Morgan.
> The sports cars of the 60s did NOT have electric fans.   If
> you are going to an AACA meet, you had better not!  Not only will
> you get 0 points, it can give you negative points.  (Remember the
> higher the points the better.)
> 
> When it come to the Morgan National meets, there is another
> difference.  The clubs will let you imporve the drivability of
> the car. 
> Instead of rebuilding the original eng. up install a "updated"
> or more modern (but still correct for a newer year) in the car.
> Most of the time there is NO penalty. 

> Another case in point.  My Morgan came with rubber floor mats
> (similar to VW) and all the cheaper cars of the 60s.  By today's
> standard very crude and not very pretty.  The newer Morgans have
> gone to carpets.  So the owners of the older cars are replacing
> the rubber mats with carpet.   To someone not versed in the Marque
> the car with the rubber mats looks cheap while the car with the
> carpet has the appearence of being nicer and gets more points.
> 
> Usually the "Best of Show" at the Morgan Nationals is a tricked
> out car.  
> 
> The Bricklin club has several classes at its National meets.
> Stock         - less than 3 changes from production.
> Semi-modified - more than 3 variances
> Modified      - full bore - big dollars - engines, paint, anything
>                 goes.
> 
> This is probably the best way to handle the differences in owners
> tastes.  I know I get very upset when I see a non-stock car win
> over a stock car that the owner has fussed over to make it right
> and the nonstock car just threw money at it to hide a problem.
> 
> In multi-make local meets, the problem again changes.  As you
> move away from a speciality class to a general class, the judges
> should have to know more about the broader range of cars.
> Unfortunately, this doesn't happen.  
> 
> What you end up having to do, is decide what YOU want.  If you
> want to drive your car - then resign yourself to not taking
> home many trophies.  Go to the show for the fun and fellowship.
> If you win a trophy so much the better.  However, it is a bitter
> bill to take when show after show after show, you don't get anything.
> 
> One last comment.  One of the regional AACA meets here got smart
> many years ago.  There meets are NOT judged.  Everyone gets a
> trophy.   I took my Morgan to another regional AACA meet
> (about 2 hours from home) several years ago.  I ended up being
> placed in a class of 60 vintage cars.  I was the only sports car
> there.  Felt very out of place so I've never gone back to that
> meet.
> 
> Hope this sheds some more confusion on the subject.
> 
> John



Jason,

Let me say that there are several types of shows out there & that may 
have some bearing on what you want to do with your car.  Local shows are 
the ones that are the most disconcerting.  There are the ones where the 
red convertible always wins.  Some have native sons who always win.  
There are those where everyone wins.  Most have judges who are not 
professional nor do they have much expertise on a variety of cars or 
they just like Chevies, or Fords, or ....

Owners have been known to stuff the popular vote ballot boxes.  They 
have also been known to get their car in the class w/the least entrants 
so as to increase their chances of winning.  Some have left the show 
because Joe w/car X has just shown up.

Some shows have classes w/50 & 60 cars in them.  Who can win there.  
Some lump all the cars together. Who can win against a Mustang w/all the 
restoration catalog items checked off & unlimited funds spent.  Also, 
who can win when put up against the car w/window sticker still attached 
& 500 mi on the odometer.

National shows are usually more professional w/knowledgeable judges 
having at least some training & experience in judging & restoration.  
They usually have a system where the car competes against a standard & 
not the other cars on the field.  In other words, all the cars on the 
field could get a 1st place or all could get nothing.  If you have 2 
cars in a class they don't have to compete against each other.  You 
don't have to compete against your best friend.

AACA uses 400 points w/deducation for authenticity & operating/cosmetic 
condition.  No one has to restore above factory standards (that means 
every Ugo wins).  You don't get a bonus if you do overrestore & lose 
nothing if you don't. I would guess that you wouldn't lose more than 
25-30 points if you have a subatantially olds engine in your car even if 
it is the wrong one.

375 points is the standard for 1st place (or within 5 points of the 
highest scoring car in that class if over 375).  As you can see each 
point counts, but you can lose 25 points & still have a 1st place car.  
Other national shows usually have similar procedures. 
The judges cannot deduct points from a car unless they "know" that an 
item is not authentic.  If there are questions, the team captain or 
chief judge may ask the owner for documentation of a feature.  The owner 
must have their documentation available to prove authenticity.  If after 
reviewing the documentation, the judges feel that the car is authentic, 
there are no deductions for that part.  If they are not sure, there is 
still no deduction as the judges must "know" that there is an 
authenticity error in the car.

Some items lose more points than others & so 3 non-authentic items isn't 
the criterion for stock or modified class.  It depends on what the 
modifications are.  The 3 items rule is just one that many local shows 
use to separate stock from modified.

Dealer installed options only hurt if that makes the car different from 
"as delivered to the dealer."  As delivered doesn't have to mean as 
delivered for your car, but what the factory could have delivered to the 
dealer.  If there are codes specifying equipment & colors placed on your 
car & the judges can decifer them, then you must match these codes or 
document factory variations on these features.  Usually the judges don't 
have the expertise or documentation themselves to do this & must take 
the car as being authentic.  Specialized clubs such as OCA probably have 
the expertise & documentation.  you can't get by with much deviation 
from as delivered with them.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: Brad Baker <bradbaker@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 18:51:10 -0300
Subject: Re: wheel covers

At 13:02 09/01/1996 +0000, you wrote:
>You know, something about checking on Brad's wheel cover question just 
>struck me... 
>
>My favorite Olds wheel for this generation was the SSI. I have seen it on 
>'66 and '67 models and believe it was introduced in '66. I have also seen 
>it on '70 and '71 Cutlasses. But in looking thru my literature to answer 
>Brad's question I see no mention of a SSI for '68, just SSII. Is this 
>just an oversight or were they not offered that year?
>
>BTW, Brad, where are you located?
>
>Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
>
>
>
>
Hey Greg,
That strange that no mention was made about the '68 wheels.Must be one more
reason why '68's are one of a kind!! I need to look for some of the books
and mags that people have been talking about.I live here in Colchester,CT.USA.
Kind of a cow town,but really nice if you like the country and the woods.
Thanks for your input...  

Brad-'68 is #1

bradbaker@worldnet.att.net

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 22:00:21 -0300
Subject: Re: DOT 5 Brake Fluid Conversion

Bill Culp wrote:
> 
> My experience verifies the very same thing.  Mike doesn't know what he
> is thinking about, let alone what he may talk about.

Gee, Bill, how very nice of you to be thinking of me on this holiday 
weekend.  

Thinking of you too.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 20:56:01 -0300
Subject: Re: car show adventures

Neither of my cars is in the show winner category. They are just nice, 
restored-to-original cars that get driven fairly regularly and hence are 
not perfect. But they are very nice. I go to maybe 4 or 5 shows a year 
and never expect to win anything. But invariably, the cars that do win 
cause my blood pressure to jump several points and makes me wonder why we 
even bother to give awards at these things.

Around here we generally don't have judged shows. Most of the awards are 
voted on by folks in attendance and since they are basically the general 
public you can guess what tends to appeal to them. Original isn't it. 
Aside from the catalog Mustangs (around here the Mustang virus has taken 
over to the extent that they have their own club, own shows and generally 
stay away from the more mainstream shows, for which the rest of us tend 
to be grateful), what seems to win is flash. For example, at a show i 
attended last month there was a pickup truck class. I could tell there 
were only 2 or 3 contenders for an award: an older restoration of a '47 
Chevy pickup, still nice but showing some wear, but virtually all 
original; a mostly unrestored '57 GMC that was in great shape but showing 
the usual 40-year-old nicks and dings; and a freshly produced '53 Ford 
that had a chromed 351, auto trans, later front suspension, power 
steering, a customized interior and killer stereo. I would have voted for 
the Chevy with the GMC second. The Ford was a nice vehicle but to me it 
was more of a street rod than a pickup. Naturally it won.

I think a lot of the problem is caused by classifications that don't 
work. I don't know the answer to this one. At that same show they 
organized awards by make, with a separate class for foreign cars. There 
were a bunch of nice but unremarkable '57 Chevys there that swept the 
"Best GM" class, while my friend Brian's SX (very nearly a #1 car - I 
mean, even the floorpans are waxed) got nothing. But the topper was the 
winner of the "Best Foreign" class - a '77 Toyota Corolla 4-door. It was 
one of 2 foreign cars there and the only thing remarkable about it was 
that it hadn't rusted away yet like all of the others here. I mean, it 
didn't even have a grill. You might get $500 for it if it ran good. But 
since no other foreign cars showed and they had the award, it won. 
Ridiculous.

So for me, shows are now for looking at cars, meeting people, answering
questions about mine, and shaking my head about the awards. I never expect
to win anything myself but it still amazes me what does take home the
trophies. I've gotten used to it and don't let it bother me too much
anymore. But I wish there was a better way to recognize the folks who take
the time to search out rare original stuff and put up with the headaches
of older mechanicals, instead of the ones with the $5000 stereo and
magenta metallic paint job. 

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: "Jason P. Labay" <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 21:10:33 -0300
Subject: Ram Rod 350 parts..... 

I have a friend looking for some NOS or reproduction parts for a Ram Rod
350. What he needs is the dual snorkel air cleaner, duct hose leading from
the air cleaner and the intake scoops under the bumper. Any idea where this
could be purchased? Any idea of a price? He has a dual snorkel air cleaner
off of a 1983 Z/28 but I don't know if it would be the same or not?  Thanks....
__________________________________________________
Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com)
1988 IROC Z/28...............salvage yard special
1980  4-4-2 W-30.............1 of  886       OCA#027572
1975 Hurst/Olds W-25...1 of 2535  H/OCA#0278A
Just what the doctor ordered....those awesome W-Machines.

------------------------------

From: "Jason P. Labay" <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 21:31:34 -0300
Subject: Re: car show adventures

I see this here too. It blows my mind the cars that win in different
categories. The politics are thick here. Take for instance my neighbor. He
bought a restored 68 Mustang last summer. This thing was a basic junk heap
before it was restored. It had all the sheetmetal eplaced except the shell,
all unoriginal drivetrain, missing much of the chrome from 68, yet still
wins trophies for two reasons. #1 it has a$5,000 paint job that changes
colors like on the new 96 Cobra's and #2 he enters shows that he knows only
3-5 Mustangs will be there. He and I can go to local car shows and he will
always win. The local "judges" prefer the half-restored mass-produced
Rustangs over a real unrestored ultra rare car like my 442. My 442 is still
rather young to be appreciated by judges, and the car show audience. If any
of them understood just how bad these cars rot out underneath they would
appreciate it. My dad ran a title search and only 4 other 80 442's are
registered in Ohio. Speaking in average terms that means roughly 200-300 are
left in the U.S.  from the original 886 made. Since 40% were white/gold that
means mine is one of 80-120 left roughly, +or- a few. I know there are some
out there not registered that would throw the calculations off. 
I was just at a local car show where all cars are lumped into one class and
a 1977 Chrysler Cordoba got first place, had to be politics. Nothing fancy
about the car, bone stock, showed average wear......I really don't get it
sometimes, there were many other cars more deserving

>So for me, shows are now for looking at cars, meeting people, answering
>questions about mine, and shaking my head about the awards. I never expect
>to win anything myself but it still amazes me what does take home the
>trophies. I've gotten used to it and don't let it bother me too much
>anymore. But I wish there was a better way to recognize the folks who take
>the time to search out rare original stuff and put up with the headaches
>of older mechanicals, instead of the ones with the $5000 stereo and
>magenta metallic paint job. 
>
>Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com)
1988 IROC Z/28...............salvage yard special
1980  4-4-2 W-30.............1 of  886       OCA#027572
1975 Hurst/Olds W-25...1 of 2535  H/OCA#0278A
Just what the doctor ordered....those awesome W-Machines.

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 16:37:18 -0300
Subject: Re: car show adventures

Greg Beaulieu wrote:
> 
> Neither of my cars is in the show winner category. They are just nice,
> restored-to-original cars that get driven fairly regularly and hence are
> not perfect. But they are very nice. I go to maybe 4 or 5 shows a year
> and never expect to win anything. But invariably, the cars that do win
> cause my blood pressure to jump several points and makes me wonder why we
> even bother to give awards at these things.
> 
> A For example, at a show i
> attended last month there was a pickup truck class. I could tell there
> were only 2 or 3 contenders for an award: an older restoration of a '47
> Chevy pickup, still nice but showing some wear, but virtually all
> original; a mostly unrestored '57 GMC that was in great shape but showing
> the usual 40-year-old nicks and dings; and a freshly produced '53 Ford
> that had a chromed 351, auto trans, later front suspension, power
> steering, a customized interior and killer stereo. I would have voted for
> the Chevy with the GMC second. The Ford was a nice vehicle but to me it
> was more of a street rod than a pickup. Naturally it won.
> 
> 
> 
> So for me, shows are now for looking at cars, meeting people, answering
> questions about mine, and shaking my head about the awards. I never expect
> to win anything myself but it still amazes me what does take home the
> trophies. I've gotten used to it and don't let it bother me too much
> anymore. But I wish there was a better way to recognize the folks who take
> the time to search out rare original stuff and put up with the headaches
> of older mechanicals, instead of the ones with the $5000 stereo and
> magenta metallic paint job.
> 
> Greg Beaulieu        


Greg,

Cars are for fun.  I often take just a driver to the shows because it 
causes just as much interest as the Nova w/the big tires.  The people 
are wonderful & it is easy to forget that the trophy time even has to 
come up.

Speaking of fun, I saw my first Pinto in a show.  The fellow had gotten 
this thing from his father & had learned to drive in it.  It had only 
35000 miles & looked wonderful.  I didn't know those things ever got 
such high mileage. That car caused as much interest as the 1959 &1960 
Edsel convertibles next to it.

I hate it when nice cars get ignored.  I love the flashy cars & most of 
mine are those impractical types.  It is a shame when the really nice 
ordinary cars don't get anywhere because they are green or blue or 
because they are the more standard model or have 4 doors.   

I saw an example of the trophy craze a couple of months ago.  the local 
GM plant has a show that they collaborate on with the local street 
rodders.  Naturally GM cars are the only ones that really win.  As they 
announced the trophies it was;

Class 1 - no cars
Class 2 - no cars
Class 3 - 1 Chevy - awarded 1st, 3nd, & 3rd place

I was at a show many years ago where a good Mustang came in 2nd in his 
Mustang class.  He also took Best Ford at the show.  I wonder what 
happened to the Mustang that took 1st in his class.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 16:53:14 -0300
Subject: Re: Ram Rod 350 parts.....

Jason P. Labay wrote:
> 
> I have a friend looking for some NOS or reproduction parts for a Ram Rod
> 350. What he needs is the dual snorkel air cleaner, duct hose leading from
> the air cleaner and the intake scoops under the bumper. Any idea where this
> could be purchased? Any idea of a price? He has a dual snorkel air cleaner
> off of a 1983 Z/28 but I don't know if it would be the same or not?  
Thanks....
> __________________________________________________
> Jason Labay 

Jason,

My 1968 442 is missing the dual snorkel air-cleaner.  I am making one 
from a couple of single snorkel 1972 Pontiac 4 barrel ones.  Mine will 
still be only an approximation.

The reason is the HUGE price that I was quoted 10 years ago for one 
($1000)  If there are resonable ones out there, I would sure like to 
know it.

The Camaro one is different.  It probably has the wrong angle between 
the the snorkels.  The snorkels are too wide.  I don't even believe that 
it is are the right height.

The scoops are specific to 1968.  The 1969's are not as wide across the 
bumper.  Year One has them as a reproduction, but I have heard that 
there are some problems w/the proper look.  I think that they are about 
$100 each or so.

The hoses are easy to get from J.C. Whitney or other places.  There are 
2 clamps on the iunner fenders for the hoses that should be there.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: The Viking <avar@infinet.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 21:56:13 -0300
Subject: Re: 78-87 Guage Cluster circuit board

My 79 service manual indicates oil pressure should be 7 psi at slow idle 
and 36 psi at 1500 - 3500 rmp.  This is for 260, 350. and 403 engines.  
Hope this helps. 

AL

 "The Viking"
  PGP Public Key Available by E-Mail Request

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 16:54:54 -0300
Subject: Re: DOT 5 Brake Fluid Conversion

Mike Frederick wrote:
> 
> Bill Culp wrote:
> >
> > My experience verifies the very same thing.  Mike doesn't know what he
> > is thinking about, let alone what he may talk about.
> 
> Gee, Bill, how very nice of you to be thinking of me on this holiday
> weekend.
> 
> Thinking of you too.
> 
> The 66 Toro and Mike
> 
> 


Mike,

I thought you were gone.  Happy holiday!

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: kissrulz@gnn.com (Craig Dobbins)
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 18:49:20 -0300
Subject: Re: car show adventures 

>Date:		Sun, 1 Sep 1996 20:56:01 -0300
>From:	Greg Beaulieu <ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca>
>Sender:	oldsmobile-owner@ccn.cs.dal.ca
>To:	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
>Subject:	Re: car show adventures
>
>Neither of my cars is in the show winner category. They are just nice, 
>restored-to-original cars that get driven fairly regularly and hence are 
>not perfect. But they are very nice. I go to maybe 4 or 5 shows a year 
>and never expect to win anything. But invariably, the cars that do win 
>cause my blood pressure to jump several points and makes me wonder why we 
>even bother to give awards at these things.
>
I know what you mean!  I have been seing this '66 442 hardtop at a weekly 
show this summer, and recently overheard the owner bragging that he won the 
top trophy at a local BIG Olds dealer's show.  When I heard that, I 
practically SPIT on his car.  Please, an Edlebrock (spelling?) intake, red 
colored radiator hoses, chromed this and that.  Not nearly what his '66 
should really be.  Sure, the interior was really nice, but the rest I was 
ready to recycle my beer all over.  I can't wait until I completely restore 
my '68 442 convertable and make him eat my s**t!

>Around here we generally don't have judged shows. Most of the awards are 
>voted on by folks in attendance and since they are basically the general 
>public you can guess what tends to appeal to them. Original isn't it. 
>Aside from the catalog Mustangs (around here the Mustang virus has taken 
>over to the extent that they have their own club, own shows and generally 
>stay away from the more mainstream shows, for which the rest of us tend 
>to be grateful), what seems to win is flash. For example, at a show i 
>attended last month there was a pickup truck class. I could tell there 
>were only 2 or 3 contenders for an award: an older restoration of a '47 
>Chevy pickup, still nice but showing some wear, but virtually all 
>original; a mostly unrestored '57 GMC that was in great shape but showing 
>the usual 40-year-old nicks and dings; and a freshly produced '53 Ford 
>that had a chromed 351, auto trans, later front suspension, power 
>steering, a customized interior and killer stereo. I would have voted for 
>the Chevy with the GMC second. The Ford was a nice vehicle but to me it 
>was more of a street rod than a pickup. Naturally it won.
>
  I hate those late model Mustang, Trans Am, and Corvette guys.  They all 
look the same, practically, to me and GEE, How to they get those 1990 + cars 
looking so nice??!!!  A whole lot of work involved there!

>I think a lot of the problem is caused by classifications that don't 
>work. I don't know the answer to this one. At that same show they 
>organized awards by make, with a separate class for foreign cars. There 
>were a bunch of nice but unremarkable '57 Chevys there that swept the 
>"Best GM" class, while my friend Brian's SX (very nearly a #1 car - I 
>mean, even the floorpans are waxed) got nothing. But the topper was the 
>winner of the "Best Foreign" class - a '77 Toyota Corolla 4-door. It was 
>one of 2 foreign cars there and the only thing remarkable about it was 
>that it hadn't rusted away yet like all of the others here. I mean, it 
>didn't even have a grill. You might get $500 for it if it ran good. But 
>since no other foreign cars showed and they had the award, it won. 
>Ridiculous.
>
>So for me, shows are now for looking at cars, meeting people, answering
>questions about mine, and shaking my head about the awards. I never expect
>to win anything myself but it still amazes me what does take home the
>trophies. I've gotten used to it and don't let it bother me too much
>anymore. But I wish there was a better way to recognize the folks who take
>the time to search out rare original stuff and put up with the headaches
>of older mechanicals, instead of the ones with the $5000 stereo and
>magenta metallic paint job. 
>
I agree fully Greg (and all who are reading this), the trophy's should go to 
the guys who WORK on their vehicles, not the one's who just bought them, put 
them in a garage for 5 years, and then brought them to the show!  15 years or 
older is my rule, to bad it isn't a standard at all of the shows.

                                                 Craig Dobbins
                                                 Lockport, NY
                                                 '68 442 Convertable.

>Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia,
> Canada
>
>
>

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #286
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