
oldsmobile-digest           Tuesday, 2 July 1996        Volume 01 : Number 219


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: RbtNeumann@aol.com
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 14:18:59 -0300
Subject: Re: headers for 75 Cutlass

Hello fellow Ohioan...I know a guy down in Mt. Vernon that has two sets of
headers that would probably work on your 350...I was interested in them, but
I've decided any power upgrades on my 72 Delta 88 Conv. will be in the form
of cubic inches...many cubic inches.  Anyway, I'm not sure if they are equal
length headers or not.  I think he wants around 50 bucks for the one set
which might be Hedmann's.  Pretty good deal, but they need to be refinished
and painted...sorry, no chrome.  If you want new, I'm sure Hooker could set
you up.  Anyway, if interested I'll give you this guy's number or I could
call him for you...just let me know.  By the way, I usually go to a Wednesday
night cruise-in at Jimbo's drive in up here near Bath...you should stop by,
it's good fun.  There is already a beautifual 69? Cutlass that frequents the
cruise in...a few more Olds would make the place much more classy :)  That
goes for any other northeastern Ohioans reading this too!  Let me know if you
need directions...

- -Aaron
rbtneumann@aol.com
(330) 666-5512

------------------------------

From: Shawn Twomey <stwom@ctp.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 15:14:44 -0300
Subject: RE: 350 for the '84 CutSup

>From: Chris Urban <urbanch@magi.com>
>Now this is a well thought out combination. What are the cams spec? What
gear is in your >car?

>From the Edelbrock web page:

Performer Plus Cam #3712

Duration at .006 lift:  Intake 280, Exhaust 290
Duration at .050 lift:  Intake 204, Exhaust 214
Lift at cam:  Intake .280, Exhaust .295
Lift at valve:  Intake .448, Exhaust .472
Lobe separation:  114
Intake centerline:  106

As for gear, I'm leaving the standard '85 442 stuff:  THM-200-4R with
2400RPM stall converter, 3.73 rear end.


______________________________________________
Shawn M. Twomey  |  "No!  Try not!  Do, or do
stwom@ctp.com    |   not.  There is no try."
                 |   -Yoda
______________________________________________


------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 15:31:42 -0300
Subject: Idle Compensator

Just finished the conversion of my 350-2bbl to a original 4-bbl setup
this weekend. Everything went reasonably well, no surprises except for
one and hopefully no major problems. I'll post the details when the final
setups are complete.

The one surprise was that the rebuilt '68 Qjet (7028250) was missing the
idle compensator when we installed it. Needless to say the hole in the
back of the carb was sucking lots of air. I bought the carb from Karl
Sarpolis a.k.a. Karl's Korner in Illinois back in the winter. When I
called the number today it was disconnected. Some q's for you all:

1. What does an idle compensator do exactly? We've got the hole
temporarily plugged but I imagine the absence of one must be having some
negative effect.

2. Does anyone know what's happened to Karl's Korner?

3. Assuming Karl is gone, anyone got one of these gizmos to sell?



Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 15:59:25 -0300
Subject: valve seals, engine #'s, etc.

> From: "Jason P. Labay" <z28cfi@gwis.com>
> Subject: 73-75 fender question
>
> Does anybody have proof or experience in getting a 73 Cutlass Supreme fender
> to fit a 75 Cutlass Supreme? My Mitchell Interchange Manual says that a 73
> fender will not fit my 75. I called Dick Miller Racing and he said that they
> will fit.

>From my '68-9 experience: watch for different hood hinge attachment
configurations. If DM says they will fit, buy it, blame him if it doesn't!

Speaking of which, I'm a little disapointed in his response to my latest
provision of parts. Rather than just write me a check at the time, he had ME
run the parts right down to the machine shop, and said he'd send off the ck
when the parts passed inspection. Fine. But here it's a week later, and he's
just getting around to picking up the parts... I think from now on it's COD,
with guarantee against unserviceable parts- cracked head, bad rod, etc.

> Well yesterday I finally got the engine on the 75 H/O painted. I painted it

Hell, that's a "rebuilt engine" now, to some folks! Also a coveted "Golden
Rocket" engine!

> From: "Jason P. Labay" <z28cfi@gwis.com>
> Subject: Re: Mondello Olds Nationals on July 14th
>
> Norwalk Raceway Park in Norwalk, Ohio. aabout halfway in-between Toledo and
> Cleveland, south of Sandusky.

OK, and the DATE/ times of interest???

> From: Dana and Mary Taylor <dmtaylor@top.monad.net>
> I have a couple of more questions re the 350 Olds. The first, Is there a
> signifigent difference in the early 39558 - 2 block and the 79
> 557752 - 3B block. In reading through my Motors manual for 70-77 it tells

Yep. Earlier block [395558-2 (6 digits in that 1st number there!)] block is
stronger due to features like solid main bearing webs- the supports for the
main bearings on the later block have holes or "windows" in them. The penalty
for the strength is of course weight. Use the "2" block.

> me the motor id numbers are on the oil fill tube BUT it doesn't tell me
> what they mean. The -2 block has 3222793 on the tube while the 3B block
> has 7826550 on the tube.

That's because they mean practicaly SQUAT. For instance:
3222793==>
3 = 1973    First digit indicates year of issue of the engine
            The 3B block is thus a 1987 engine.
222793 = engine sequential production number.

Might have some vague relevance to mid-production changes, such as, oh, after
engine #blahblahblah, use oil pump drive rod P/N blahblahblah... It sort of
indicates where along the timeline that engine was produced that year- early
or late. Engine #1000001 might have some collector or sentimental value...
  We're still looking for any other beneficial use for that oil fill tube
number. If you want your engine to be as nearly #'s matching as possible, then
machine off the VIN derivative # on the block's pad, stamp in the correct VIN
derivative # off your original engine, and use the original engine's oil fill
tube as well. The VIN on the pad thing isn't going to fool any judges, of
course, with a #2 block, but for ID purposes should the engine or car ever be
stolen, it'd be nice if engine VIN derivative matches car.

> Also a followup if anyone cares, After pulling the edelbrock manifold off
> the -2 and dumping out a half cup of decon from the #5 intake port and

Huh? Decon, the rat poison?

> pulling down the engine I found the inside to be in pretty good shape.
> except - as i said earlier the cam looked real good wear wise but today
> upon closer inspection I found the Distributor gear teeth to be worn
> sharp edged. I checked the dist and found the same thing on that. What

You'll be enjoying the cam selection process, then! Edelbrock 3712 or similar,
I presume...

> would cause that? misalignment would have been my guess but how can the
> dist get out of alignment? As I pulled down the rest of the engine today

Well... In the back of the LH oil gallery is a screw-in plug, accessible via
the press-in plug in the back of the block. That screw-in plug is supposed to
have a tiny hole, about 0.040", to spray oil on the dist'r gear. Often, the
hole is a) not there, or b) plugged with gunk/ dirt/ chunk of silicone, etc.

> I answered the question as to maybe why the engine smoked so bad on the
> left bank and maybe why it clattered so. Whomever rebuilt this engine put
> 1 3 5 7 pistons in with the notch and letter F pointing to the back of
> the block. The 2 4 6 8 right side were in the right way. Go figure!

DOH! I doubt that THAT alone would lead to much more than additional piston
noise, not oil consumption or excessive banging like bad rod bearings. It's
not a fatal flaw or something. The 425 runs fine with ALL pistons on
'backwards'.

> My motors manual also tells my that the 68 - 69 350's had 275 horse 2brl
> and 300 hp 4 brl this was done with 9.5 to 1 compression ratio. Can I
> achieve this with out getting a 68 or 69 engine??

Uh, use small-chamber heads, like #5-6-7-7a, or maybe the 3A's you have on
hand. Select pistons with the totally ludicrous advertised [only] "10.25:1"
compression ratio. Or, are you re-using stock bores & pistons? How low is the
budget here?
   Boils down largely to head selection for a small block...
Here's what I seem to recall you having on hand, and their features:

    cc   Valve Sizes   Int. Port Size    Notes
3A  ??   small? 1.5?   ?? same as #8's?  1/2" bolts will fit. Good chamber
                                         size, valves too small?
5A  ??   same as 3A    you tell us       Same as 3A.
7A  ??   who cares?    miniscule         Tiny squarish int. ports. Scrap.
 8  ~80  1.88/1.625    Good, big for SB  Scrap. Use for comparison, valve
                                         donators, springs? Huge chamber makes
                                         powerful CR's impossible.

If you can afford some 1972 "7a" heads, tiny capital "A" subscript to the 7,
or some earlier #5 or #6 or #7 [no "A"] heads, that'd be great, too.

> Well, I for one, am just a harmless smartass, so take nothing personally
> and don't listen to a damn thing I say.

Huh? did you say sumthin'? :-)

> ...and still have it driveable, you mean.  Shouldn't be a problem, with
> the right parts.  Your biggest problem, I believe, will be the heads &
> getting to the right compression ratio.  If you use the 5As from the 307

Where have I heard that before?

> '72 350 block (+.030 makes a 355cid)     Edelbrock #3711 intake

Same as D&M...

> '72 "7a" heads with 70cc combustion chambers and hard exhaust seats
> Edelbrock #3712 cam
> TRW forged 10.25:1 advertised pistons
>                 -with 350 +.030 and 70cc heads makes 9.6 actual CR.

Above: Key components!  Below: stuff you can probalby do w/o for now in a low
budget scenario, D&M. Except the valve job part... anytime the heads are off,
do a valve job...  And I'd spring for a balancing, too, about $150-200, esp.
if not using  THE SAME crank/ rods/ pistons ass'y that an engine came with. Go
with the '73's innards, unless you cannot for some reason.

> Hooker headers (don't recall part number presently)
> Edelbrock #5812 valve springs
> Edelbrock #7813 roller timing set
> Mondello pushrods & adjustable rockers (ditto).
> Machine work:
>     bores knocked .030 over
>     heads ported, polished, & valve job
>     pistons & rods balanced, crank spin-balanced

> Sorry about the LFP, guys.
> LFP = Long, uh...., post
> Shawn M. Twomey  |  "No!  Try not!  Do, or do

Sounds like a "that's what *she* said" comment... My, Shawn, what a _long
post_ you have!  Aw, shucks, it's nothing! I was gonna truncate it, but that
part at the end was kinda necessary...

> I put Hooker Competitions headers on my '73 Supreme, they fit like a glove,
> and were only $119 from Jeg's, though the install was a pain. You'll
probably > have to cut the 2 lower supports between the frame and engine
crossmember to > make headers fit.

Did anyone ever install headers that just slipped right in? I mean, on an
Olds. The worst I ever had was trying to fit '68-72 SB headers to a '67
chassis- had to completely cut out 2 tubes on the LH side, reroute them. But
it worked. Now, how come they offer BB headers for the 67 chassis, but not SB
headers? Well, except for the $350 Hooker units.

>           I'd like to add my two cents worth on this one.  The current
>           NHRA class records for E/Stock and F/Stock, which is where
>           most 442s and W-30s would fall, are in the high 10s.  I'd
>           Joe Padavano

Well, what of the Urban 9.78 car, then? Oh, tunnel-ram, not "stock enough"
anymore, I guess. OK...

> > >Hello, the first olds a-body with a 455 was the 68' hurst olds!!And yes
> you have a 455 according to your casting #, they also put c- heads on
> many 455s Enjoy that olds!!!

Ayup on the first A-body 455 being the '68 H/O... And the C's were the
run-of-the-mill head for all big blokes [heh!] 1967 thru 1969. NOT just 442's
or Toronados, though those applications did get fitted with a bit larger
valves...
  So, the next Q is, are your C heads big-valve units or not?

> upon closer inspection I found the Distributor gear teeth to be worn
> sharp edged. I checked the dist and found the same thing on that. What
> would cause that? misalignment would have been my guess but how can the
> dist get out of alignment?
>
> More than likely its your cam thats moving back and forth in the block

Huh? Is this another myth or something? Why would some engines go 250,000
miles w/o any trouble then? The cam's front shoulder rides against the
machined surface of the block, where oil is constantly flowing from the cam
bearing. The load imposed by the oil pump [dist'r] drive gear tends to KEEP
the cam rearward against the block. This load pulsates a bit, but is fairly
constant. So, what force exactly is it that tends to cause the cam to move
forward? Braking of the vehicle? Lifters on the lobes?
  OK, assuming we can dream up a load that tends to induce the cam to move fwd
in the block... A) what about that bolt that holds the cam sprocket in place-
the fact that its head sticks out to just about where the timing cover is,
allowing maybe max 0.050" of endplay, stock. And, B) exactly how bad can it be
for the cam to move axially a few thousandths of an inch? Surely if it was
REALLY critical, they'd have more carefully held the cam, or at least its oil
pump drive gear, in place. In some roller-cam engines, there is in fact a
little spring on the front of the cam, to help push it back against the block.
   Enlighten us, please...

> Sure you can acheive any compression ratio you want with proper part
selection
 and machine work

Well, provided you don't "want" anything over "10.25:1" aka 9.5:1 in reality.
Remember that these folks are not buying Mondello-Arias custom flat-top
pistons at $600 or more a set... replacement stock-type cast HC pistons seems
to be the BEST that the budget allows, IF any new pistons at all...

> From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
> Subject: Quick!- Help with Valve Seals- Are they supposed to be like this?

> So, are stock-type valve seals only meant to stick to the valve stems, and
go > bouncing up and down with the valves? That doesn't seem right; I would
think > they should fit tightly around, and stay connected to, the guide, not
the > valve.

Yep, they're just little umbrellas for the valve stem/ guide interface.

> I may just go with Mondello's teflon valve seals, but have one question
about > the tool he sells to machine the guides to accept that type of seal.
What is > the operating rpm of that tool? Is it something only suitable for a
milling > machine? Or a drill press? It would be much easier if I could use
the > heavy-duty 1/2" portable drill I have handy, but that has a low-rpm
operating > range; is that feasible?

I've used the tool with good results in a slowish 1/2" drill motor. You can
also cut the guides' height down to clear high-lift cams this way. Handy.
Others sell the same tool, Summit for instance, at about $35 for the tool and
another $12 for the correct pilot [11/32" for Olds guides].
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: "Jason P. Labay" <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 16:45:18 -0300
Subject: Re: headers for 75 Cutlass

>I put Hooker Competitions headers on my '73 Supreme, they fit like a glove,
>and were only $119 from Jeg's, though the install was a pain. You'll probably
>have to cut the 2 lower supports between the frame and engine crossmember to
>make headers fit.
Sounds like I should not put headers on then. I want to keep the cars
originality as it is currently. Chopping it would not be good....

 I also have the 2.5" Flowmaster 64-77 A-body exhaust on my
>car. You might have trouble finding a shop that will install it as '75's came
>with catalytic converters, unless you install the exhaust yourself
I plan to run "hollowed out" cats, at least until the year 2000 when my car
will be exempt here.
.
>DrkSole
>'73 Supreme
Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com)
1988 Camaro IROC-Z/28 5.0 bowtie power
1975 Hurst/Olds W-25 5.7 rocket power
HOCA member #0278A...in need of 75 H/O and 442 parts!

------------------------------

From: "Jason P. Labay" <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 16:48:45 -0300
Subject: RE: `69 442 w/455 Engine

>million changes could have happened since it was made.  I heard of
>people doing title searches and look up the previous owners to find the
>history of the car.
>
I did that with my 75 H/O. Found 4 previous owners. It lived happily in
Oklahoma up until 1992, when it came to Ohio to begin rusting. Only the
floor pans died though:)
Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com)
1988 Camaro IROC-Z/28 5.0 bowtie power
1975 Hurst/Olds W-25 5.7 rocket power
HOCA member #0278A...in need of 75 H/O and 442 parts!

------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 17:16:34 -0300
Subject: Re: antique car insurance

At 11:35 AM 7/1/96 -0300, you wrote:
>I am thinking of insuring my 35,000 mile 70 442 convertible with an antique
>insurance provider.  Does anybody have any experience with one of these
>companys?  (Good, bad, horror stories?)  Seems J.C. Whitney has been around
>longest.
>Art Fuller

Art,

I think you mean J.C. TAYLOR insurance.  I has my '64 Jetstar insured with
them for several years before selling it recently.  The insurance cost only
about $60 per year, but you were restricted to driving the car only to and
from car shows, cruises, and so forth, and in parades.  You couldn't use it
for any sort of daily driving (not even a quick trip to the grocery store).
You also had to keep it in a locked garage and not drive it more than about
2500 miles per year (this is the amount most of these types of insurance are
limited to).  If you can put up with these restrictions, I'd say go for the
insurance.  I dealt with a local agent who represented Taylor, and I never had
any problems.  I never had to make a claim, though, either.

To my mind, the biggest decision to make is, do you really want to restrict
your ability to drive your car?  Some of these companies will insure vehicles
as young as 15 years old, provided you meet the other restrictions on miles
driven, type of driving, and conditionsof storage.  I thought briefly about
putting my '75 Delta 88 convertible under this kind of insurance, because I
do meet the under- 2500-miles-per-year and keep-it-in-a-locked-garage
restrictions.  But I have too much fun driving the thing all over the place
during the summer months. I couldn't bring myself to let it just sit.  Of
course, it has 105,000 miles on it, not the low mileage you have.  In the end,
I decided to keep the regular insurance I was carrying and just drive it.
After all, that was why I bought it in the first place!


Dan



************************************************
Daniel A. Gulino
Associate Professor and Graduate Chairman
Department of Chemical Engineering
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio  45701-2979
(614) 593-1495
(614) 593-0873 (fax)
gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu
http://www.ent.ohiou.edu/che/faculty/gulino.html
************************************************

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 17:23:28 -0300
Subject: re-sent msg:Quick!- Help with Valve Seals- Are they supposed to be
like this?

[Sorry if you already received this; AOL's mail program sometimes flakes out,
and this seems to be one of them. I'll be getting a new address soon...]

I'm assembling the 350 heads for my 403 buildup, and have a question about
the valve seals.

The ones included with the engine rebuild kit are little plastic caps (8
black, 8 white), like the ones that were on there stock. When I go to install
them, they fit nice and tight around the valve stem, but there doesn't seem
to be anything retaining them to the head.

So, are stock-type valve seals only meant to stick to the valve stems, and go
bouncing up and down with the valves? That doesn't seem right; I would think
they should fit tightly around, and stay connected to, the guide, not the
valve.

I may just go with Mondello's teflon valve seals, but have one question about
the tool he sells to machine the guides to accept that type of seal. What is
the operating rpm of that tool? Is it something only suitable for a milling
machine? Or a drill press? It would be much easier if I could use the
heavy-duty 1/2" portable drill I have handy, but that has a low-rpm operating
range; is that feasible?

------------------------------

From: Paul Bartlett <bartletp@osshe.edu>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 17:21:02 -0300
Subject: Antifreeze Spewing From 1966 Toronado

We took the 1966 Toronado on a four hour trip through the backroads of
Oregon.

We stopped at some friends to show them the car.  Just sitting there, it
looked terrific.  But then, the radiator started making noises and all of
a sudden purged a load of hot anti-freeze -- all over their driveway.
Yes, rather embarrasing.  To make matters worse, our friends have cats and
I hadn't used the environmentally safe antifreeze.  Fortunately, we
hosed down their driveway before the cats got to it.

Next stop, the Toronado did the same thing.  But I was one up on it
because I had learned my lesson and parked it on the street.

Next stop, the Toronado tried to do the same thing, but didn't have enough
antifreeze to purge.  Instead the radiator make horrible hissing and
groaning noises.  By the time we got home, we had lost 1/3 of the
radiator's worth of coolant.

I think I found the problem.  The radiator has a 7 lb radiator cap and no
overflow tank.  The manual seems to call for a 12-15 lb radiator cap.
So I better get one soon.

I presume that the radiator is not designed to have an overflow tank, and
that I should not fill the radiator to the brim.  The service manual calls
from some type of "full" line, but I haven't found that line yet.

Funnily enough, I don't think the car ever overheated -- the temperature
guage was never higher than the 1/2 way mark.

Oh well, live and learn -- the 1966 Toronado is become a bit of a
conversation piece around here.

Paul Bartlett
E-mail bartletp@osshe.edu

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 19:19:54 -0300
Subject: Re: Antifreeze Spewing From 1966 Toronado

But then, the radiator started making noises and all of a sudden purged a load
 of hot anti-freeze

        The problem is that once the engine is turned off, the heat in
        the block and heads (which are much hotter than the radiator)
        soaks back into the coolant and causes it to expand.  Thus, the
        ralphing up of coolant you have experienced.  I get the same
        phenomena on my truck, wherein the engine will run at 160 all
        day long, and a few seconds after I shut it off, the
        (aftermarket) thermostatic electric fan, with thermostat set at
        190, will kick in.  On several occasions I have turned the
        ignition key back on out of curiosity, and sure enough, the temp
        gauge reads 190+.

        My truck has a factory expansion tank and I have experienced no
        loss of coolant.  The truck also runs a 15 psi pressure cap.  My
        suggestion to you would be to install the factory cap (I seem to
        recall that water boils at 256 F under 15 psi over atmospheric
        pressure) and use an expansion tank (assuming you can live with
        the non-stock tank).  Be careful that the 7 psi cap could be an
        indication of a previous owner's problems with a weak, leaky
        radiator, which should be repaired anyway, if that is the case.
        I have run a number of mid-60s Oldsmobiles, and never had a
        problem with a 15 psi cap.  The cooling system should be
        designed to accommodate this pressure, with an old radiator or
        hoses as the only potential weak spot.  Again, if that is the
        case, it should be repaired anyway.

        You are also correct, in that if you are not running an
        expansion tank, you should not fill the radiator to the very
        top.  The fill line is usually an embossed feature on the side
        tank of the radiator below the fill neck, although if yours is
        an aftermarket replacement it may not have the line.  Usually
        the fill line is 3-4 inches down from the top.

        Note that the expansion tank makes this fill process automatic,
        as the radiator will draw from the tank to back fill the cooling
        system as the radiator cools and the steam in the system
        contracts.  All radiator caps have this one-way valve feature,
        as they need to suck in air as the system cools if an expansion
        tank is not installed (otherwise the radiator would collapse
        from the internal vacuum).  I typically do not fill the radiator
        in my truck all the way to the top, however after several days
        of driving the radiator will be so full that coolant will
        dribble out when I remove the cap (yes, the level in the
        expansion tank with the system cold goes down accordingly).

        Good Luck

        Joe Padavano
        jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

        66 442
        68 W-30
        69 H/O
        70 W/30

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 19:12:25 -0300
Subject: Problems

Last week was overrun with problems for me and it seems to be carrying on
this week. In short:

Started out the week with the simple task of changing an armrest base on
the Cutlass. Picked up one at the Lansing homecoming and it sure looked
the same as both all the other ones on display and the one I had on the
car. BUT... the new one was maybe 1/4" shorter than the original,
something that wasn't immediately apparent. Certainly the screw bosses
were slightly different. Would you believe nearly an hour to install?
Fighting with trying to match up screw holes, etc., made it a pain until
I decided to just try and force-fit the thing. Fortunately it had enough
flex in it to work. Part numbers on the backside turned out to be
different even though visually the pieces look the same, and even though
places like Year One sell a single base for all 68-72 models. Strange.

The weekend was spent converting the Cutlass to a 4-bbl setup with a new
cam and lifters. Right now it's not very good. Carb seems screwed up, or
maybe it's the timing or the cam. Fast idle very strange (either very high
or non-existent), slow idle rough, car gets very hot, auto trans not
happy, not sure what's going on. Still working on that, will keep you
posted. Bad timing for me in that I'm on vacation this week and need the
car.

Finally there seem to be problems with either majordomo or CCN mail
causing the list to be acting up today. Message volume very low although
a few have leaked through. Not sure what the problem is there either.
Will try to find out. Even my own message from earlier today about
needing an idle compensator never got through. I've never had that happen
before.

Wonder what's next...

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 22:08:10 -0300
Subject: Re: Antifreeze Spewing From 1966 Toronado

Paul Bartlett wrote:
>
> We took the 1966 Toronado on a four hour trip through the backroads of
> Oregon.
>
> We stopped at some friends to show them the car.  Just sitting there, it
> looked terrific.  But then, the radiator started making noises and all of
> a sudden purged a load of hot anti-freeze -- all over their driveway.
> Yes, rather embarrasing.  To make matters worse, our friends have cats and
> I hadn't used the environmentally safe antifreeze.  Fortunately, we
> hosed down their driveway before the cats got to it.
>
> Next stop, the Toronado did the same thing.  But I was one up on it
> because I had learned my lesson and parked it on the street.
>
> Next stop, the Toronado tried to do the same thing, but didn't have enough
> antifreeze to purge.  Instead the radiator make horrible hissing and
> groaning noises.  By the time we got home, we had lost 1/3 of the
> radiator's worth of coolant.
>
> I think I found the problem.  The radiator has a 7 lb radiator cap and no
> overflow tank.  The manual seems to call for a 12-15 lb radiator cap.
> So I better get one soon.
>
> I presume that the radiator is not designed to have an overflow tank, and
> that I should not fill the radiator to the brim.  The service manual calls
> from some type of "full" line, but I haven't found that line yet.
>
> Funnily enough, I don't think the car ever overheated -- the temperature
> guage was never higher than the 1/2 way mark.
>
> Oh well, live and learn -- the 1966 Toronado is become a bit of a
> conversation piece around here.
>
> Paul Bartlett
> E-mail bartletp@osshe.eduPaul,

I was just reading Joe Padavano post concerning your problem and I have
to agree with him right down the line.  I would have big ????? about why
there's a 7 lb cap on the car.  I believe I'm running a 14 lb in my 66.
I'd get the right cap and watch for other leaks... real close!

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 18:35:51 -0300
Subject: Re: Antifreeze Spewing From 1966 Toronado

>> I think I found the problem.  The radiator has a 7 lb radiator cap and no
>> overflow tank.  The manual seems to call for a 12-15 lb radiator cap.
>> So I better get one soon.
>>
>> I presume that the radiator is not designed to have an overflow tank, and
>> that I should not fill the radiator to the brim.  The service manual calls
>> from some type of "full" line, but I haven't found that line yet.

On our '72, it was stamped into the side ribs of the radiator (passenger's
end) a couple of inches or so below the top.

>> Funnily enough, I don't think the car ever overheated -- the temperature
>> guage was never higher than the 1/2 way mark.

No, but the combination of weak coolant (possibly) and low system pressure
allowed the coolant to boil in the block after shutdown, and the steam
caused all sorts of interesting effects, as you saw. Did you hear various
constipated burping noises at the same time? (From the car, I mean :-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Dink" <dink@infinet.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 15:56:58 -0300
Subject: Hey

Hey there!     Some of you might remember me from before.  Well I
fianlly got a I-net provider and a new email account.  The new
address is dink@infinet.com if anybody was interested.  Well I have
some good news and some bad news.  The Bad news first:  I havn't
been on the web in over 2 months and no olds mail!!  The good news.
In the search for my 56 I have found some locals that kind of have
there own Olds club.  Some of the cars include;
48 sedan
49 sedan
53 88,  fresh restore, NICE!
53 88 custom, cheby motor
53 88 nice
56 88 ht, red/white old restore
56 88 convertable
55 98 custom

Needless to say these guys are great to talk too and most are old
enough to my grandparents, but they don't care.  It's kind of wierd
to hang out with on the Saturday night cruises, but what the hell, we
all love Olds!  If anybody is in northern Ohio area, we have a car
cruise every Saturday at the Brunswick Big Boys.  About 20 miles
south of Cleveland.  It's mostly cheby stuff, but usually over a 1000
cars a weekend.  People start showing up at 3:00 and don't leave until
midnight or later.

On another note I just found about the Olds thingy at Norwalk July
14th. What exactlly is it, and how many days is it?  Is it racing,
show, swap, etc?

One more note my new neighbor across the street races a 85 Cutlass,
455, fullrace, gutted interior, etc.  The damn thing is loud, when he
fires it up, stuff starts shaking on the walls.


Well I guess that's enough for my first new post.

Dink

p.s. I ordered new springs for my Delta
____________________________________________________
Dink                   Cleveland,Ohio
80 Olds Delta 88 Royale
95 Formula 6M, T's, 1SC, Hurst, CAGS!
Dink@infinet.com
- ----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 22:36:44 -0300
Subject: Re: Antifreeze Spewing From 1966 Toronado

Sorry I forgot to trim Paul Bartlett's post.  Duh!
I'm slapping my right hand with my left as I type.


The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Blaine Sanders 5483 <BLAINES@strata3d.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 20:06:58 -0300
Subject: '72 Cutlass Supreme owner...

Hi everyone!  My name is Blaine Sanders.  I am 21 years old, living on my
own in Southern Utah.  I own a '72 Cutlass Supreme.  I bought the car
from my brother for $400 when I was fifteen.  It's been in my care ever
since, and likely will be until I die (or until the government takes away our
right to own our gas-guzlers).  I'm now in the process of restoring it to
it's original condition (minus the original color - ugh!).  I've been looking
for a group of Oldsmobile enthusiasts for about two years now, and just barely
stumbled upon this list -- thanks to Edward Ekstrom.  I'm hoping to learn a
lot from everyone here, and hope that I can add some helpful insight from my
own experiences.  If anyone else has a '72 Cutlass Supreme, I'd love to hear
about it...

TTFN!

- -B.S.
blaines@strata3d.com

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 20:36:05 -0300
Subject: Re: Antifreeze Spewing From 1966 Toronado

At 17:21 7.1.96 -0300, you wrote:
>We took the 1966 Toronado on a four hour trip through the backroads of
>Oregon.
>I think I found the problem.  The radiator has a 7 lb radiator cap and no
>overflow tank.  The manual seems to call for a 12-15 lb radiator cap.
>So I better get one soon.
>
>I presume that the radiator is not designed to have an overflow tank, and
>that I should not fill the radiator to the brim.  The service manual calls
>from some type of "full" line, but I haven't found that line yet.
>
>Funnily enough, I don't think the car ever overheated -- the temperature
>guage was never higher than the 1/2 way mark.
>
>Oh well, live and learn -- the 1966 Toronado is become a bit of a
>conversation piece around here.
>
>Paul Bartlett
>E-mail bartletp@osshe.edu
>

ok...well this worked on my bro's truck which had the same problem...he put
a 15 lb cap on and then took the hose that came off of the radiator neck and
used an old S-10 overflow tank...you can probably comb the yards for an
overflow tank to find a shape that you like...
                        Zack

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 20:45:01 -0300
Subject: Re: re-sent msg:Quick!- Help with Valve Seals- Are they supposed to
be like t...

In a message dated 96-07-01 16:34:03 EDT, you write:

<< So, are stock-type valve seals only meant to stick to the valve stems, and
go
 bouncing up and down with the valves? That doesn't seem right; I would think
 they should fit tightly around, and stay connected to, the guide, not the
 valve.

 I may just go with Mondello's teflon valve seals, but have one question
about
 the tool he sells to machine the guides to accept that type of seal. What is
 the operating rpm of that tool? Is it something only suitable for a milling
 machine? Or a drill press? It would be much easier if I could use the
 heavy-duty 1/2" portable drill I have handy, but that has a low-rpm
operating
 range; is that feasible?
  >>


Yes, the stockers go up and down with the valve.  It's OK.

The tool used for cutting the valve guides can _usually_ be used on a hand
electric drill.  The teflon seals, in my experience, do not cause less oil to
be burned, but they "regulate" it.

I've used them, don't any more but I am sure others will give you their
experience.

If it were my engine, with good valves and guides, I'd use the stock system.
 The larger umbrella goes on the intakes, the shorter on the exhausts
(whatever colors).

Bob Handren  OCA #7728
'67 W-30 Modified
'70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 20:45:25 -0300
Subject: Re: antique car insurance

In a message dated 96-07-01 16:22:43 EDT, you write:

<< At 11:35 AM 7/1/96 -0300, you wrote:
 >I am thinking of insuring my 35,000 mile 70 442 convertible with an antique

 >insurance provider.  Does anybody have any experience with one of these
 >companys?  (Good, bad, horror stories?)  >>

I've used American Collectors for over 10 years.  Same basic restrictions as
JC Taylor.  I have had a claim.  No problem, required two estimates, paid the
lowest, no deductible, no sweat.

The thing to be _most_ concerned about is what they will pay if a real
disaster occurs.  Certain types of stated valus policies are the best.  They
pay what you insure the car for.

Check if out carefully before you buy.

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 21:40:20 -0300
Subject: Re: antique car insurance

Bob,
I have always insured my cars for stated value insurance and not had a
problem. That gets expensive, especially since I don't exceed the antique
insurance milage restrictions. Besides, who knows how many miles you put on
the car anyway. If you're happy with the company you use, would you share
their phone number so I can call them? Thanks for your reply. Art Fuller

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 21:35:29 -0300
Subject: Re: re-sent msg:Quick!- Help with Valve Seals- Are they supposed to
be like this?

Stock type umbrella seals do not attach to the head in any way, they just
keep oil from dripping down the valve and into the guide.  To use
positive seals, you must cut down the O.D. of the valve guide at the top
to mount the seal to the guide.  These seals can sometimes cause
valvetrain interference with higher lift cams, so if you're going to use
one have the machine shop that cuts down the height of your valve guide
also cut the OD of the guide for positive seals.  I'd recommend having a
machine shop do your work, the fixtures they have are more accurate than
doing it freehand.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
 revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
 information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
 Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
 been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 00:52:44 -0300
Subject: Re: Hey

Hye, Dink:

Welcome back.

> I havn't been on the web in over 2 months and no olds mail!!Bummer.

> The good news.  In the search for my 56 I have found some locals that
> kind of have there own Olds club.Very nice selection of vehicles!  Even if
you ARE missing the required Toro (hint-hint, nudge-nudge).

> Needless to say these guys are great to talk too and most are old
> enough to my grandparents, but they don't care.  Of course, we don't.  We're
just SENIOR kids.

> It's kind of wierd to hang out with on the Saturday night cruises...Mutual.
;)

> ... we have a car cruise every Saturday at the Brunswick Big Boys.  I've
added it to the tour list.

> It's mostly cheby stuff...Yeah, but it's always nice to have the commoners
around.

> but usually over a 1000 cars a weekend.Whoa!  Nice crowd!

Later, kid.  :)

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 01:01:36 -0300
Subject: Re: '72 Cutlass Supreme owner...

Glad you found us, Blaine.

> It's been in my care ever since, and likely will be until I die.

My thoughts exactly.  I plan to be buried in my Toro.  Who says you can't
take it with you?  I guess Greg Kalkhoff (a goofy, cheese-headed,
multiple-Toro-owning, part-time pyromaniac, funeral director you'll bump
into here) can handle the arrangements.

> (or until the government takes away our right to own our gas-guzlers). I
which case we're moving to Belize.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: ZQEY23A@prodigy.com (MR PETER S GUIDO)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 23:21:17 -0300
Subject: antique car insurance

I have my 63 Starfire insured with JC Taylor for about the past 4
years.  I just had a claim for a large scratch that happened in my
garage, and they handled it very promptly, 1 estimate, and they
mailed the check the same day.  They do have restrictions on mileage,
storage, etc., but if that's not a problem I'd recommend them.
Peter Guido

------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 22:37:39 -0300
Subject: Re: Problems

Greg,

Sorry to hear of your problems, but I really wanted to write and say that
I received my July JWO today, and your article is terrific.  I would
expect a bunch of new subscribers here because of it.  Good work.



Dan Gulino

------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 22:41:52 -0300
Subject: Re: Hey

Hi Dink,

Glad to see you back.

Do you have a site that shows your Delta 88?


Dan Gulino

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 23:19:17 -0300
Subject: Idle Compensator

Posted this this morning but it never made it through, so I'm trying
again...

Just finished the conversion of my 350-2bbl to a original 4-bbl setup
this weekend. Everything went reasonably well, no surprises except for
one and hopefully no major problems. I'll post the details when the final
setups are complete.

The one surprise was that the rebuilt '68 Qjet (7028250) was missing the
idle compensator when we installed it. Needless to say the hole in the
back of the carb was sucking lots of air. I bought the carb from Karl
Sarpolis a.k.a. Karl's Korner in Illinois back in the winter. When I
called the number today it was disconnected. Some q's for you all:

1. What does an idle compensator do exactly? We've got the hole
temporarily plugged but I imagine the absence of one must be having some
negative effect.

2. Does anyone know what's happened to Karl's Korner?

3. Assuming Karl is gone, anyone got one of these gizmos to sell?



Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 23:51:16 -0300
Subject: Re: antique car insurance

Peter,
Thanks for the reply.  I guess your company is the only one I've ever heard
of. I have no problem with the restrictions, if I do I can always change
back.

Art Fuller

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 19:08:16 -0300
Subject: Re: more questions.. :)

Ken wrote:
>
> I bought an "Ultra High Compression" air filter plate.  Now I need the Air
> Cleaner that it goes on top of!  1967 442's w/ S.T. had an open elemented
> chrome air cleaner didnt they?  Can someone point me to an aftermarket part
that > is similar to the original and that will also mesh with the nifty
"Ultra-Hi" > plate? > > Thanks, > Ken

Ken:

I hate to say it, but I believe that these are tha same as the Chevy,
Corvette, & GTO open element units of the 1966-1970 era.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 19:02:20 -0300
Subject: Re: Oldses and typo's

Dana and Mary Taylor wrote:
>
>
>
> The engine smoked very bad out the left bank when I drove it home. It
> also clattered something awful.
>
> As I said before, The engine was extreamly clean inside. The pistons show
> some wear on the skirts near the oil rings. The rod bearings in the cap
> all look good ie; no copper showing nor is there the usual dirt or metal
> frragments inbeded in the surface. The unusual part is the bearing half
> in the rod itself. the center part of the bearing half is all copper
> colored. Why would only the one half be worn and not the other. I always
> thought the most wear occured on the side of the downward thrust with the
> other part of the wear would be on the lower half where the rod was being
> forced up. As I said there was no ridge on the cyls. and all the rings
> were free.
>Dana & Mary:

This is a guess, but it may have been "rebuilt" with another good crank
& needed line bored and didn't get it.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 18:53:42 -0300
Subject: Re: 49x engine, etc.

Jason P. Labay wrote:
>
> >
> >The targa band sounds a lot like that used on H/Os for the period (here
> >I'm thinking of '74 or '75). Anyone with a targa-band 442 or H/O care to
> >comment?
> >
> Jason:

I remember seeing some cars like that out of the Atlanta zone office for
1975.  They had the targa band made of aluminum I believe and not as
nice & professional as the H/O.  There were chromed sport mirrors as I
recall & a half vinyl roof.  I don't recall the emblem, but there was
something about gold in the name these cars had.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 01:53:57 -0300
Subject: Re: re-sent msg:Quick!- Help with Valve Seals- Are they supposed to
be like t...

In a message dated 96-07-01 19:54:26 EDT, you write:

> Yes, the stockers go up and down with the valve.  It's OK.

Huh. You learn something new every day. And I thought that the old ones off
that head had just lost their "grip" on the guides. *This* is the type of
information that should be included in an Olds rebuilding guide.

>  If it were my engine, with good valves and guides, I'd use the stock
system.
>   The larger umbrella goes on the intakes, the shorter on the exhausts
>  (whatever colors).
>
>  Bob Handren  OCA #7728

Thanks. I think I'll go with the stock-type setup then, since it is basically
a stock motor (and I've already got them...). I'll have to look closer at the
seals I have; both looked about the same size on first glance.

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 01:54:24 -0300
Subject: Re: '72 Cutlass Supreme owner...

In a message dated 96-07-01 19:08:04 EDT, you write:

> Hi everyone!  My name is Blaine Sanders.  I am 21 years old, living on my
>  own in Southern Utah.  I own a '72 Cutlass Supreme.  I bought the car
>  from my brother for $400 when I was fifteen.  It's been in my care ever

Welcome! It's always nice to have more C/S owners here on the list. In fact,
wasn't there a new '72 Cutlass Supreme guy on this list just a week or so ago
asking if anyone else had a '72 C/S? BTW, I"ve got a '70 C/S (SX version,
with the 455), originally pale yellow (yuck!!!), that has become a
project/driveway fixture. Next summer, though, after the 403 buildup and the
'69 Toro....

>  since, and likely will be until I die (or until the government takes away
 our
>  right to own our gas-guzlers).  I'm now in the process of restoring it to

Ah, just convert to alcohol and distill your own fuel...  ;)

>  it's original condition (minus the original color - ugh!).  I've been
> looking for
>  a group of Oldsmobile enthusiasts for about two years now, and just
>  barely stumbled upon this list -- thanks to Edward Ekstrom.  I'm hoping to
>  learn a lot from everyone here, and hope that I can add some helpful
>  insight from my own experiences.  If anyone else has a '72 Cutlass
>  Supreme, I'd love to hear about it...

There are quite a few '70-'72 Cutlass Supreme owners on this list. Half this
list wants to restore their car, half wants to make it go faster, and another
half don't speak up that much, so we don't know *what* they want to do!  ;)

And occasionally those Toronado guys will get ornery, and beat up on the 98
owners, until the pre-'60 guys beat them over the heads with cases of
AMSOIL...

But all-in-all, lots of info, lots of traffic (try digest-format if 100
e-mails a day get to you), all in good humor, because we love Oldsmobiles.

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 01:54:52 -0300
Subject: Fusick Trip (a short story)

While visiting family last week, I finally had a chance to visit Fusick's up
in East Windsor, CT (~15 min. North of Hartford). Been meaning to get up
there and get a battery tray and lower radiator hose for the '69 Toro, and
since the "experts" at Auto Body Specialties (you see their ads all over for
sheetmetal), who happen to be located in my wife's hometown of Middletown
couldn't get me that battery tray (me-"Excuse me, do you have a battery tray
for a '69 Toronado?": 19yr-old counter help-"A Coronado?" me-"No, a
T_O_R_O_N_A_D_O": him-"Huh, is that a Ford _Toronato_ ?"(sic-he wrote it down
this way. sigh... :(   On the plus side, they can get fiberglass fenders,
bumpers, doors, even tilt front ends, for Cutlasses)

Fusick's is in a kind of industrial park, but they kind of have a storefront,
which is more of an ordering counter. Lots of advertising signs, emblems,
etc. out front. There is a display case *filled* with dealer promo models of
all types of Olds', from the '60's through the '70's, including all the first
generation Toronados, NOT FOR SALE. :(

Dangerous place, there. Got my battery tray (nice heavy gauge metal) and
hose, walk back to the car and browse through the catalog... Hey, they've got
books, yeah, I ought to get me that one with the Toronado road tests... So
back inside, friendly counter help is getting my book out of the back, and I
notice the catalog also has lock sets (my driver-door lock is jammed), and
yup, they are in stock too. I call a halt to the feeding frenzy, which
started to turn into a kind of game with me since it was all going on a
credit card. Before I left, however, I did order up a set of exhaust pipes
for the Toro...

I highly recommend this as a stop for anyone here who happens to be driving
through Connecticut. A bit of advice: bring cash only and stop buying when
you run out, as you can go broke there getting those things you
need/want/would like to have...

Anyone else visit the storefront of these places the rest of us just
Catalog-order from? (i.e. Dick Miller/Mondello/Year One/Oldsmobile USA/Kanter
etc.)

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 01:55:10 -0300
Subject: Electrical Problems solved! I register the Toro tomorrow!

I got a chance to spend some "quality time" with my '69 this weekend, and
pretty-much fixed the electrical problems with it. If you recall, one blinker
didn't work. Well, when I looked at it again, *all* the tail-lights were out,
except for one! Huh, a rapidly-deteriorating condition...

After pushing and poking around for a minute, I looked for a place to start
testing. I figured the bulkhead connector for the tail-light wiring was the
place to start; if I have juice there, then I can isolate it to particular
wires. So I pop the trunk, locate the connector, and... hey, that doesn't
look right... yup, I wiggle it around, and discover that my connector wasn't
connected! Well, that *might* be part of the problem...

Once connected, all is right with the world, except for one flasher. I trace
that to a bad connection in the wire; redo that, and voila! there she blinks.

The right-front parking light is much trickier. I have 12-volts at the female
connector to that light under the bumper, and continuity from male connector
to the socket, but when I plug them together, no lights! Bulb is good (works
on other side), contacts are clean, but no lights.

I decide to stop playing Mr. Nice Guy, stock up on tap-in connectors and
14-gauge wire at Radio Shack, and just jumper over that connector. Problem
solved, though none-too-pretty.

Onto the CV boot, I undo the outer clamp, bring it to the store, and they
hand me a "Band-It" clamp, which is fine except that it is a one-piece design
requiring hub removal. A bit too much tugging for the time I have that day,
so I go hunting for a split-clamp. Next place I frequent has no such clamps
big enough, so the guy recommends a large worm-gear hose clamp ("Yeah, it's
the same principle, right?"). I buy it as an emergency measure, and pop into
my favorite tire place (where I'm known as the '69 Toro Guy), same place that
arched my shoes. They have a clamp which is close, so I pick up the tool to
clamp it ($22-ouch) and head home.

Back home, I proudly wrap the clamp, around the boot, tighten it with the
tool, and presto!, I tear out the little tab that holds it all together. :(
 Oh, well, put the hose clam on to get it down to the shop to be done right
(I'll gladly *pay* someone to go and pull *that* hub!).

Tranny is still a mystery, as it is doing a very good imitation of a manual
transmission: starts in 3rd in "D", in 2nd in "S", and in 1st only in "L".
HELP!

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 01:55:03 -0300
Subject: Re: Problems

In a message dated 96-07-01 18:19:36 EDT, you write:

> The weekend was spent converting the Cutlass to a 4-bbl setup with a new
>  cam and lifters. Right now it's not very good. Carb seems screwed up, or
>  maybe it's the timing or the cam. Fast idle very strange (either very high
>  or non-existent), slow idle rough, car gets very hot, auto trans not
>  happy, not sure what's going on. Still working on that, will keep you
>  posted. Bad timing for me in that I'm on vacation this week and need the
>  car.

Quite possibly more than one thing. Sounds like you've got some sort of
vacuum leak there, which is affecting your idle/auto tranny, and possibly an
overadvanced distributor, which is making your car run hot (in addition to
the heat produced from the vacuum leak making it run overly-lean). The fact
that you also installed a new cam might make this problem worse, if it is a
longer-duration cam producing less vacuum to begin with. What carb/intake/cam
did you install? And did you adjust the rockers properly?

Well, since you *are* on vacation, guess what you'll spend your free time
doing...  :(

Good luck!

>  Finally there seem to be problems with either majordomo or CCN mail
>  causing the list to be acting up today. Message volume very low although
>  a few have leaked through. Not sure what the problem is there either.
>  Will try to find out. Even my own message from earlier today about
>  needing an idle compensator never got through. I've never had that happen
>  before.

Ayup, same here. I had to resend a message I first sent around noon.

>  Wonder what's next...

Hmmmm, I was away from this list all weekend, so by the time I got back, the
"oil wars" had pretty much resolved themselves. I guess all this list needs
now to be part of the internet is a bunch of unsolicited offers for explicit
and intimate phone conversations...

HOT OIL TALK!  LIVE HEAD PORTING! TOPLESS TOROS AND STRIPPED CHASSIS!  WE'VE
GOT A ROOM FULL OF HIGH-COMPRESSION PISTONS JUST WAITING FOR YOU!   JUST CALL
(800) HOT-OLDS!



man I shouldn't be allowed to type this late at night...

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 01:55:08 -0300
Subject: Re: Antifreeze Spewing From 1966 Toronado

In a message dated 96-07-01 16:33:51 EDT, you write:

> Next stop, the Toronado tried to do the same thing, but didn't have enough
>  antifreeze to purge.  Instead the radiator make horrible hissing and
[snip]
>  I presume that the radiator is not designed to have an overflow tank, and
>  that I should not fill the radiator to the brim.  The service manual calls
>  from some type of "full" line, but I haven't found that line yet.
>
>  Funnily enough, I don't think the car ever overheated -- the temperature
>  guage was never higher than the 1/2 way mark.

Yeah, as others have already pointed out, this is a "normal" condition (same
situation for my '69 Toro) I plan on adding an overflow tank from my Monte
once I retire it.

>  Oh well, live and learn -- the 1966 Toronado is become a bit of a
>  conversation piece around here.

Ah, just poke a hole in the tranny pan; then they'll talk about you even when
you *aren't* there!  ;)

------------------------------

From: Bob Valentine <ravalent@liii.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 02:20:56 -0300
Subject: Re: Idle Compensator

On Mon, 1 Jul 1996, Greg Beaulieu wrote:

> The one surprise was that the rebuilt '68 Qjet (7028250) was missing the
> idle compensator when we installed it. Needless to say the hole in the
> back of the carb was sucking lots of air. I bought the carb from Karl
> Sarpolis a.k.a. Karl's Korner in Illinois back in the winter. When I
> called the number today it was disconnected. Some q's for you all:

> 1. What does an idle compensator do exactly? We've got the hole

   It's purpose was that when the carb (engine in general) got over a
certain temp it would open and speed up the idle a little for increased
cooling.

> temporarily plugged but I imagine the absence of one must be having some
> negative effect.

   I've never seen that happen.  They're usually either corroded shut,
fail to operate, or a stuck open.  You certainly won't notice a
performance degradation due to a lack of one - if the carb/motor combo
didn't have one from the factory it was plugged - just like yours now.

> Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

                     -->   Bob Valentine  <--
                    --> ravalent@liii.com  <--
        "Experience varies directly with equipment ruined"

------------------------------

From: Bob Valentine <ravalent@liii.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 02:26:20 -0300
Subject: Re: Electrical Problems solved! I register the Toro tomorrow!

On Tue, 2 Jul 1996 Bob0Barry@aol.com wrote:

> Back home, I proudly wrap the clamp, around the boot, tighten it with the
> tool, and presto!, I tear out the little tab that holds it all together. :(
>  Oh, well, put the hose clam on to get it down to the shop to be done right
> (I'll gladly *pay* someone to go and pull *that* hub!).

    That's why I use hose clamps. ;^)  I've never done a Toro, but have
done 10^X 80's FWD GM cars - all of them seem to hold the hose clamps
much better than the band-clamps.

> Tranny is still a mystery, as it is doing a very good imitation of a manual
> transmission: starts in 3rd in "D", in 2nd in "S", and in 1st only in "L".

    Hey, you got one of those rare manual trans Toros, except yours was
made minus the clutch pedal!  (couldn't resist after last week's thread)

                     -->   Bob Valentine  <--
                    --> ravalent@liii.com  <--
        "Experience varies directly with equipment ruined"

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 12:25:47 -0300
Subject: Re: '72 Cutlass Supreme owner...

Bob0Barry@aol.com wrote:
>
> And occasionally those Toronado guys will get ornery, and beat up on
> the 98 owners, until the pre-'60 guys beat them over the heads with
> cases of AMSOIL...

HA!

> ...all in good humor, because we love Oldsmobiles.

True, true.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: bla@bla.bla
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 09:33:12 -0300
Subject: (no subject)

lkj

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 10:59:20 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Idle Compensator



> 1. What does an idle compensator do exactly? We've got the hole

   It's purpose was that when the carb (engine in general) got over a
certain temp it would open and speed up the idle a little for increased
cooling.

          Actually, I always thought it was called a HOT idle
          compensator, the purpose of which was to admit additional
          idle air during periods of very hot idling engine operation.
          The compensator itself is actually a bimetallic spring
          which, when cold, holds a disc against the opening in the
          back of the carb, sealing it (there is normally a 3/4 inch
          diameter torroidal cork gasket which fits into this opening
          in the carb body).  When the spring reaches a certain
          temperature (ok class, what temperature is it?), the
          compensator opens by pulling the disc away from the carb
          housing.  A stamped sheet metal cover with a spring-loaded
          check valve goes on the outside of the compensator and is
          retained with two small screws.

> temporarily plugged but I imagine the absence of one must be having some
> negative effect.

   I've never seen that happen.  They're usually either corroded shut,
fail to operate, or a stuck open.

          I'd have to disagree.  The only ones I've seen which have
          been stuck are those from carbs which have been so messed up
          that the car barely ran at all.  Things to look for are
          excessive carbon buildup from backfires, but usually the
          unit is quite clean.

You certainly won't notice a performance degradation due to a lack of
one - if the carb/motor combo didn't have one from the factory it was
plugged - just like yours now.

          Actually, I must agree with this, especially in Canada,
          where I suspect you will not have much use for the hot idle
          compensator.  On the other hand, you should be able to score
          a replacement part from just about any junkyard Q-Jet, which
          certainly looks a lot better than a plug.

          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W/30

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 10:12:15 -0300
Subject: Re: '72 Cutlass Supreme owner...

  I plan to be buried in my Toro.  Who says you can't
> take it with you?  I guess Greg Kalkhoff (a goofy, cheese-headed,
> multiple-Toro-owning, part-time pyromaniac, funeral director you'll bump
> into here) can handle the arrangements.

> The 66 Toro and Mike

I sure would like to see the price estimate for that casket!

 				Pat Clark
    				 69 442
    			        400/TH400
    			  clark@abu.dseg.ti.com

     The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 11:20:00 -0300
Subject: Custom Toro (was: '72 Cutlass Supreme owner...)

And occasionally those Toronado guys will get ornery...

          Well, this ought to get them really spun up...

          Seen in the July Hemmings - 1966 Toro limousine, custom
          built by George Barris.  Stretch, FOUR doors, etc, etc.  The
          looked quite good, at least in the typically grainy 1" x 2"
          Hemmings photo.  No indication if it had the rare, 3bbl
          carburetted, Caddy-engined, three-on-the-tree driveline :).

          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 12:48:58 -0300
Subject: (more) 403 Solid Webs!

Speaking of the 4A block, I spotted one in a '77 98 yesterday at a
dealership in Geneve, IL.  Forgot to get the casting number though.  It did
have a TH400 trans.  The car was pretty optioned out - red metallic, white
leather, cruise, rear defog, all the "low" this and that sensors (no posi,
rear stab bar, or tow package).  It looked to have the same cooling system
as my '77 88.  So here is another source for donor cars.

About this car, 54K miles, very clean inside and out, one owner.  Oil
decent, trans fluid not burnt.  A bit of bubbly rust on the bottom side of
frame (1-3 yrs in salt?), no surface rust.  Driver side floor pan has a
small hole, diff leaking a bit.

Get this, $5500!  The salesman got my best "wow"!  I know this is the car
advertised a month ago FSBO in a local paper for $6000, then a price
reduction to $5500.  Maybe $3500 - $4000.  If anyone is interested, let me
know.

David Brown          OCA #27978         (312) 702-9157
               Check out: www.442.com
Send Olds FAQ request to: dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu

- --------------
403 Olds Solid Main Web Engines

2500 produced
Block Casting #557265-4A or 553990-4A
Mostly found in certain 1977 Buick Station Wagons built in 1976.
Can be found in Pontiac Bonneville (year?) with tow package.
Can also be found in 1979 Pontiac Trans Am with tow package and block
casting #554990-4A
Block casting number is found behind the timing cover between the oil
fill tube and the oil sending unit.

Source: Mondello Olds V-8 Engine Technical Reference Manual

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 10:33:12 -0300
Subject: Re: Fusick Trip (a short story)

>notice the catalog also has lock sets (my driver-door lock is jammed), and
>yup, they are in stock too.

Whoa, big fella... is there anything particularly rare about a Toro lock
set? Is this not just a matter of finding the right key cut profile for
the lock cylinder from the local dealer? I remember the pleasant surprise
of discovering that a '64 GTO and an '89 6000 STE (or something like that)
shared the same trunk lock, for example.

>Anyone else visit the storefront of these places the rest of us just
>Catalog-order from? (i.e. Dick Miller/Mondello/Year One/Oldsmobile USA/Kanter
>etc.)

Heh-heh. I have the ability to visit J.C. Whitney in person. The rest of
you can just turn green with envy. So there.  ;-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 14:34:43 -0300
Subject: Re: (no subject)

bla@bla.bla wrote:
> lkj

Yada-yada-yada


The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 14:33:43 -0300
Subject: Re: Custom Toro (was: '72 Cutlass Supreme owner...)

JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com wrote:
>
> Seen in the July Hemmings - 1966 Toro limousine, custom
> built by George Barris.  Stretch, FOUR doors, etc, etc.

Oooooh!  I want it!


The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 14:51:50 -0300
Subject: Re: Fusick Trip (a short story)

Andrew C. Green wrote:
>
> Heh-heh. I have the ability to visit J.C. Whitney in person. The rest
> of you can just turn green with envy. So there.  ;-)

Well the next time you stop in, ask them where the hell is the left side
exhaust pipe they were supposed to ship to me in Germany 20 years ago!

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 11:54:42 -0300
Subject: Re: (no subject)

At 09:33 7.2.96 -0300, you wrote:
>lkj
>
>

uhhh, what is this....weird

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 14:54:45 -0300
Subject: Toro Caskey  Was: '72 Cutlass Supreme owner...

Pat Clark 952-3776 wrote:
>
> I sure would like to see the price estimate for that casket!

Forwarding your request to Greg Kalkhoff.     ;)

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 10:56:41 -0300
Subject: Re: Fusick Trip (a short story)

> Heh-heh. I have the ability to visit J.C. Whitney in person. The rest
>> of you can just turn green with envy. So there.  ;-)
>
>Well the next time you stop in, ask them where the hell is the left side
>exhaust pipe they were supposed to ship to me in Germany 20 years ago!

I understand it was back ordered, but they expect it on Thursday.

Hey, you're welcome.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: lawrencr@kostabi.gdls.com (Robert Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 12:05:09 -0300
Subject: Re: Toro Caskey  Was: '72 Cutlass Supreme owner...

> From oldsmobile-owner@ccn.cs.dal.ca Tue Jul  2 10:57 EDT 1996
> Date: 	Tue, 2 Jul 1996 14:54:45 -0300
> From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
> Pat Clark 952-3776 wrote:
> >
> > I sure would like to see the price estimate for that casket!
>
> Forwarding your request to Greg Kalkhoff.     ;)
>
> The 66 Toro and Mike

Of course, you've filled out your donor card.

-
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Robert Lawrence   | 1970 Oldsmobile 98 Convertible               .^.
lawrencr@gdls.com |  _________,~--,___________\____________     /9|8\ (810)
825-5450    |  |                |~    |        ___   |    \}|{/ Sterling Hts.,
MI |  =------(-o-)-------------------( o )--=      v

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 16:44:52 -0300
Subject: Re: Fusick Trip (a short story)

Andrew C. Green wrote:
>
> I understand it was back ordered, but they expect it on Thursday.

Yeah, right.  That's what they said LAST year!

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 16:47:14 -0300
Subject: Re: Toro Casket

Robert Lawrence wrote:
>
> Of course, you've filled out your donor card.

Of course.  And I'm donating the wiring harness to Kalkhoff.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 12:43:49 -0300
Subject: Re: 73-75 fender question

>Does anybody have proof or experience in getting a 73 Cutlass Supreme fender
>to fit a 75 Cutlass Supreme? My Mitchell Interchange Manual says that a 73
>fender will not fit my 75. I called Dick Miller Racing and he said that they
>will fit. I looked at them and I don't see why they will not fit.

I'm going by foggy memory here; you have been warned.

Seems to me that in '73, all the Cutlasses had the same nose, with a
wraparound turn signal/side marker unit at the front corner. In '75,
they had at least two different front end styles, but neither had the
one-year-only design of the '73 nose. The side marker, to begin with,
was now a separate unit in the fender, consisting of either a large
vertical lens with three vertical divider bars over it (for Supremes)
or a simple rectangular lens (S, or Supreme coupes for '76-'77). Even
if you can make everything else fit, I think you might have problems
up at the lower front of the fender.

Somebody else a while back did a much better job detailing the differences
between the various '73-'77 models; maybe they're still around...? I'm a
bit nervous about some of my details above.

This isn't automatically a problem; a lot of times they do reuse the old
sheet metal even when the nose is drastically altered, so if you trace
the lower front edge of the fender and it seems to have the same profile
as the piece you're trying to replace, even if one has a light unit in
the side and the other doesn't, they might be interchangeable. See, for
example, how the nose of the '96 Grand Am was heavily redone, but it's
still using the old fenders from previous years, now sporting a weird
triangular filler piece in the nose at the corner where the old wraparound
markers used to go. Come to think of it, the Grand Prixs have the same
fudging. Wouldn't surprise me if Olds had done the same thing back then.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 14:57:08 -0300
Subject: Re: antique car insurance

Art:

Info on several collector car insurance companies follow.

The usual restrictions on locked garage, limited driving mileage, etc. are
pretty standard.  The mileage is very easy to get around by having problems
with your speedo/odometer drive cable :-)

In actual practice I have only come close to the 2,500 mile limit one year -
but did not exceed it.  There was no fudging either.  Unless you drive long
distances or a lot 2,500 is reasonable.  You can also request a larger limit
with explanation.  Such as the round trip to the OCA Nationals exceeds 1500
miles.  The insurance company will usually cut (or is that gut) you some
slack.

Finally, understand that most of the antique/collector car insurance
companies will insure stock cars only.  If it is significantly modified in
any way they either won't insure it at all or charge a higher premuim.  My
company, American Collectors, will insure both stock and modified.  When the
car exceeds 25 model years in age, the rates drop about in half.  Modified
kicks it back up.  It's still pretty cheap by most "normal" auto insurance
standards.  We cover both cars for a year for about $250 and this is with no
deductible.

>From the June Hemmings Motor News the following companies have ads:

American Collectors Insurance, Inc.
800-360-2277

Classic Collectors (An agent, not company direct)
800-252-5233
http://www.gaic.com/classic.htm

J.C. Taylor
800-345-8920

Condon & Skelly
800-257-9496

Elite Collector Car Insurance, Inc.
(Will cover antique, classic, street rods, customs, etc.)
800-787-7637

I am sure there are others.  I would appreciate hearing how it works out for
you.  As always, the lowest quote isn't always the best deal.

Bob Handren  OCA#7728
'67 W-30 Modified
'70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #219
********************************