
oldsmobile-digest          Tuesday, 16 July 1996       Volume 01 : Number 239


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark Samaniego <marks@IntNet.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 20:44:26 -0300
Subject: An end to the 307 Temp sensor debate...

>From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
>Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:10:12 -0300
>Subject: Re: Temp sensor


I figured it out. The sensor located to the left of the oil pressure sensor 
has two wires going into the plug, but only one connector is "live". I 
unplugged it and grounded the one wire, and the TEMP light came on. I pulled 
the sensor and replaced it with the gauge sensor and the gauge works fine now. 
My guess is that the car is wired for a gauge, and this car comes with a 
simple idiot light. The gauge is pretty accurate, it is just below 200 when 
warm, indicasting that the 190 degree thermostat is working. NOw, to pull the 
boat and see how hot it gets! I want to see what (if any) differeance a flex 
fan w/o a clutch will make. I will keep the list updated.

Thanks for the help! 

Mark S.


>[...another repost from yesterday...]
>>
>>Olds 307 motor. Does ANYONE know the location of this sending unit? The
>>one I am looking for is a single-wire idiot light sender.

>Try a different approach. Chilton has a manual called a Component Locator
>Manual or something like that which gives the location of things like the
>coolant warning switch. Among other places, Super Trak stores have a copy
>of this which you can browse and photocopy in the store. Next time I'm at
>our local store I'll check it out for you.

>Needless to say, if somebody here has an Olds service manual, it'll be
>shown in there, too.

>BTW, if you can determine the color coding of the wire to the warning light
>behind the dash, I'm pretty certain it will be the same color coding under
>the hood where it plugs onto the sending unit switch. This isn't true for
>_every_ circuit, but this is a pretty simple one.

>Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
>Datalogics, Inc.
>441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
>Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473


- -- 
           >> marks@intnet.net <<
** Lost In Cyberspace, Wallowing In Technology **

------------------------------

From: lacey@dsea.com (Dan Lacey)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 21:56:38 -0300
Subject: Re: Fun with the Torque Wrench 

>>Ft. Lbs.  is a rough estimate of what you REALLY want; bolt/stud stretch. A
>>bolt is "supposed" to be tight enough to stretch a specified amount. Now,
>>if you lubricate a part, then torque it, you will find that the bolt
>>stretched more than if it was not lubricated. You have effectively
>>over-tightened the bolt.
>
>Okay, I probably could have come to the point a bit better, 'cause this
>is what I was thinking, too: could the lubricant have basically allowed
>me to stretch the bolt a lot harder than expected with the same amount
>of torque? I guess the answer is yes, but I can't see how anyone could
>accurately torque a _dry_ lug unless they went nuts with a wire brush,
>compressed air, etc. beforehand. As I said, these things were starting to
>look a bit oxidized already, but I didn't think the thin film of oil would
>affect the readings _that_ much when we're leaning in at 100 ft./lbs. I
>mean, taking into account the pitch of the threads, etc., it seems like
>that's a lot more pressure than any oil film is going to resist.
>
>The manual does not address whether or not to put any oil on the threads
>first, but I was under the impression that usually when you're trying to
>accurately torque something, you were supposed to _lightly_ lubricate it
>during assembly. Chris? Anybody else assembling engines? Yes or no?
>
>Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
>Datalogics, Inc.
>441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
>Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

Well, as I stated, I wouldn't expect the lube to cause you to break the
bolt. Accuracy of torque values on a lug is not a big concern...

The reading is not affected by the pressure on the film of oil, it is
affected by the fact that it is easier to stretch the bolt more because
there is less friction. Easier to turn, so you turn it further, so the bolt
stretches more with the same torque reading!

Confused yet? :-)


*************************************************************************
* THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY  *       Dan Lacey ( lacey@dsea.com )        *
*                           *       Dainippon Screen Eng. of America    *
* LEFT BLANK                *       3700 W. Segerstrom Ave.             *
*                           *       Santa Ana, CA. 92704                *
*************************************************************************

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 19:45:31 -0300
Subject: Re: Fun with the Torque Wrench

At 09:56 PM 7/15/96 -0300, you wrote:

>Well, as I stated, I wouldn't expect the lube to cause you to break the
>bolt. Accuracy of torque values on a lug is not a big concern...
>
>The reading is not affected by the pressure on the film of oil, it is
>affected by the fact that it is easier to stretch the bolt more because
>there is less friction. Easier to turn, so you turn it further, so the bolt
>stretches more with the same torque reading!
>
I was taught by my grandfather and uncle, both mechanics by trade, that you
can only get torque readings when tightening bolts by using some kind of
lube (oil!).  I have always assembled engines, trannys, rears, etc. and
tightened lug nuts with plenty of oil on the threads and under the heads of
the bolts I was tightening.  Never had a fastener fail yet.  But of course,
there is a first time for everything!
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: chrish@trib.infi.net
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 23:26:41 -0300
Subject: Production Numbers

I am restoring a '70 Cutlass 2 door sedan(many call it a post coupe)and 
am interested in any info I can compile especialy how many of this style 
were produced. I have taken it to 2 large shows and was told that it is a 
rare piece. I have the window sticker and know the history of ownership 
(I am the fourth owner). It has 41,000 miles and is solid as a rock.
Please point me in the right direction.

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 22:16:55 -0300
Subject: SSxxx wheels 

>> >Does anyone have a set of Super Stock II wheels they might want to get
>> >rid of?


     I've got a question here, now.  Can anyone give a description of the
differences between these styles of wheels?  I've always run Olds Rallye
wheels, and never got much more energetic than calling them 14" or 15"  Now
I see these SSI, SSII, SS45, etc.  Maybe someone (like Bryce, hint, hint, if
you're reading this... :)  ) could post pics on a web page showing the
differences.  just a thought.
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 455
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: Blaine Sanders 5483 <BLAINES@strata3d.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 22:42:42 -0300
Subject: SSxxx wheels -Reply

>     I've got a question here, now.  Can anyone give a description of the
>differences between these styles of wheels?  I've always run Olds
>Rallye
>wheels, and never got much more energetic than calling them 14" or 15"
> Now

Hmm...  I just described them last week.  I toss everything I write, so I
can't resend it to you.  Do you have the Olds/442 Year One catalog? 
There's a pretty detailed description in there (catalog #R335) on pages
203-205.

>I see these SSI, SSII, SS45, etc.  Maybe someone (like Bryce, hint, hint,
>if you're reading this... :)  ) could post pics on a web page showing the
>differences.  just a thought.

That's an *excellent* idea, IMHO.

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 23:17:53 -0300
Subject: Re: OCA Nationals 

In a message dated 96-07-11 22:40:45 EDT, you write:

>I see many comments about the NAOC Nationals and haven't seen anything about
>the 
>OCA Nationals in Atlanta next month.  Is anybody going to Atlanta?
>
>Art Fuller

Yep!  Look for the guy in the Turquoise '67 98 Coupe with a bashed in
passenger front fender in the unrestored class.  That should be me.  I doubt
there'll be another one.

Paul

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 23:17:33 -0300
Subject: Re: blower fan 

In a message dated 96-07-13 17:32:26 EDT, you write:

> Might have to put a contract out on 
>him to get his attention.  You'd be surprised how cooperative a person gets
>if 
>his knees are going to get nailed to the floor.

No wonder the NAOC doesn't want you Cutlass guys in their club! :)

Paul

------------------------------

From: lawrencr@kostabi.gdls.com (Robert Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 23:24:56 -0300
Subject: Re: Production Numbers 

> From oldsmobile-owner@ccn.cs.dal.ca Mon Jul 15 20:54 EDT 1996
> Date: 	Mon, 15 Jul 1996 23:26:41 -0300
> From: chrish@trib.infi.net
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4 (Win16; I)
> 
> I am restoring a '70 Cutlass 2 door sedan(many call it a post coupe)and 
> am interested in any info I can compile especialy how many of this style 
> were produced. I have taken it to 2 large shows and was told that it is a 
> rare piece. I have the window sticker and know the history of ownership 
> (I am the fourth owner). It has 41,000 miles and is solid as a rock.
> Please point me in the right direction.
> 

Write the Olds History Museum.

240 Museum Drive
Lansing, MI 48912

Give'em you VIN number and they'll send you back a bunch of
info.

- -or-

Check your local bookstore or library for Danial Casteele's "Cars of
Oldsmobile".  It has production numbers of some models.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Lawrence   | 1970 Oldsmobile 98 Convertible               .^.
lawrencr@gdls.com |  _________,~--,___________\____________     /9|8\
(810) 825-5450    |  |                |~    |        ___   |    \}|{/
Sterling Hts., MI |  =------(-o-)-------------------( o )--=      v

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 23:42:25 -0300
Subject: Re: Pushrods for the 403 (thanks for the advice) 

In a message dated 96-07-15 19:26:30 EDT, you write:

<< A big thanks to Bob Handren for the tip on Competition Cams' extra length
 pushrods for solving my valvetrain geometry questions. >>

Hey Bob (great name), us rare SX owners have to stick together.  I plan to
use my own advice when I take the heads off the 455 in the '67.

Bob Handren
'67 W-30 Modified
'70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

------------------------------

From: Roger Saladin <rsaladin@bright.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 23:42:54 -0300
Subject: Help with Olds ID 

I'm going to be looking at an Olds in the next couple days, and need some
help with ID. I've seen it from the outside (nothing under hood, nor the
inside except thru the windows). Talked to the guy on the phone, it belongs
to a relative. Car is orange, says 442, and W-30 on the sides. Guy selling 
says it's a '72, 350 engine.
   Now the fun part. I've got a '72 Cutlass, '72 it definitely ain't!
I'm thinking '70 - it's got the twin vertical bar taillights on each side,
and the center of the grill comes up with the hood. So does '70 sound right?
   If it's a 350 engine, it certainly isn't W-30. But if the guy can be off 
by two years, I'm sure he can be off by 105 cubic inches. What's the
quick and easy way to tell the difference between them? And is there an
easy way to tell a standard 455 from a W-30?
   For what it's worth, if anybody has the magic decoder ring (and it works
for that year), the VIN starts 3G87H12M-----.  I know 3 is for Olds, maybe
the 87 is for 442? What else?
   Thanx for any help.

                                                              Roger

   

------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 00:23:36 -0300
Subject: Re: SSxxx wheels

ssI wheels are the lowest number of the three wheels, followed closely by ssII 
wheels that are next after the ssI's. Then, comes ssIII wheels, after the ssII 
wheels because III comes after II. If you're refering to all three wheels in the 
same conversation then you would refer to them as ss VI. Some are kind of a 
grayish silver and some are all colors. The grayish silver ones come in 6" or 7" 
by 14". The all colors ones come in 7" by 14" or 15".  What more could a person 
possibly want to know about these wheels?

Art Fuller
Semi Professional explainer

------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 00:24:46 -0300
Subject: Re: blower fan

Hey, they got knees too!!

------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 00:27:14 -0300
Subject: Re: OCA Nationals

Paul,
Is that the fairly common factory left bashed fender, or the rare factory right 
bashed fender.  Haven't seen many of the rare ones.

Art Fuller

------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 00:31:35 -0300
Subject: Re: Production Numbers

My source tells me they made 2,836 6 cylinders and 8,274 V8's.  Twenty-six years 
later, it is a rare car.

Art Fuller
Semi Professional Stat. person

------------------------------

From: Bob Valentine <ravalent@liii.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 01:25:59 -0300
Subject: Re: Looking for wheels -Reply

On Fri, 12 Jul 1996, Blaine Sanders 5483 wrote:

> Local junk yards?  No such thing.  We have a salvage yard that only
> deals in foreign cars.  Other than that, I have to travel at least 200 miles
> to the nearest big city (Las Vegas, NV), and they've just closed down all
> but two of their junk yards and scrapped all the cars.  Some kind of city
> cleanup project or something...  The next closest place is Salt Lake City,

    That's a damm shame!  I was out there about 2 years ago (I'm from New 
York, rust capitol of the world) and was shocked at what was in those 
yard.  Almost cried when I saw 3 '71 C/S ragtops there, all with original 
paint and minimal body damage.  Went for the trunklid (convertible was 
slightly different), only to find the locks had be sledgehammered out.
When I asked the yard man why he said "They never rust, do they?"

    Saw a '69 GTO on top of a scrap pile there that around here would have 
been a "Rust Free CA car, no motor/trans.  $3000" around here.  

                     -->   Bob Valentine  <--  
                    --> ravalent@liii.com  <--
        "Experience varies directly with equipment ruined"

------------------------------

From: Bob Valentine <ravalent@liii.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 01:46:17 -0300
Subject: Re: manual...

On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Chris Brown Witt wrote:
> > >As for Joe's tech book:  I like the book, but were the hell does it 
> > >reference 7a (small cap  A) heads???  It seems to me like WE talk 
> > >about those quite a bit and Joe himself filled me in about the 
> > >induction hardened seats.  So were is the small cap A in his chart????
> > >So much for 5 years and 5000 man hours of work Joe...

> Agreed, very little mention for such a critical part for the SB crowd.

>  Actually, the heads chart DOES list 7a heads, he just left the "A" off- it's
>  the 1972 #7 head. Big Faux Pas, IMHO. -Chris-

     I never bought the book (now almost glad I didn't ;^), but I do have 
his catalog.  So, is his 64cc listing for the 7 head the one that goes with the 
appropriate '71-'72 casting number (409147)?  

                     -->   Bob Valentine  <--  
                    --> ravalent@liii.com  <--
        "Experience varies directly with equipment ruined"

------------------------------

From: "Peg O'Connor" <peg@grove.ufl.EDU>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 01:48:35 -0300
Subject: Re: A sideways story...

> I have him crank it up in the air and slip underneath and, lo, car is in
> one forward and one reverse gear! I pull both rods back to neutral, hop in
> to see what's up, and in few minutes I am on my way home!

My goofy question now is -- could that happen with an automatic??

------------------------------

From: Bob Valentine <ravalent@liii.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 02:00:09 -0300
Subject: New Motor Considerations

It's finally about time for a new motor for my '71 - bodywork is almost 
done, rest of the drivetrain is done, and the oil useage/piston slap is 
getting pretty bad.

I have a '70 350 block (the "good" -558 casting) which I've already had 
bored .030 over, line honed, ect.  Have a fresh cut .010/.010 Nodular 
crank, and a mildly (EGR bumps removed, bowls blended) ported set of 7 heads.
Induction will be via a Q-jet on the stock manifold, until I get around 
to trying to implement a FI system.

This is a daily driver '71 C/S ragtop, T400, 2.78 Posi car.  Soon 
the rear will be replaced with either a 3.2? or 3.36:1 posi rear.  There 
exists the possibility of a T700-4R tranny swap soon also.  It will 
probably never see the dragstrip, but I do have a lead foot.  ;^)

I'd like some comments on the "last" details:

1.  Pistons - I'd like to get around 9:1 compression.  No specific 
preference to cast or forged, but I've never owned a forged piston 
motor.  I'm more concerned with durability.  

2.  Cam - I was figuring on a 214/224 @ .050 cam.  Should have a slight 
rump-rump idle but still be daily driver material.

                     -->   Bob Valentine  <--  
                    --> ravalent@liii.com  <--
        "Experience varies directly with equipment ruined"

------------------------------

From: Nick DiGiovanni <ndigiova@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 03:05:56 -0300
Subject: Re: 68 Conv 442 

At 05:08 PM 7/14/96 -0300, you wrote:

>Anyway, I wanted 
>to get the VIN off the engine and it is just impossible with an AC car.  
>The alternator bracket is in the way.  I cleaned the stamping and tried 
>to read it with a mirror, but it was just too hard.  I could make out 
>some of the numbers, but not enough of them.  Anybody know of an easy 
>way to id this block without removing the alternator bracket?  I really 
>need to id this block to see if it is the original one.  I just wonder 
>if the mileage is really 58K.  I would maybe belive it if the block was 
>original.  Also, how does the boot for the convertible top attach?  This 
>one slides on, but the chrome around that area has holes in it.  It 
>looks like it used to snap on.  I thought that they used the slide 
>system in 68.  Can anybody else tell me things to look for in this car?  
>The lady who owns this car has 9K in receipts for it and is looking to 
>get her money out of it.  I'm concered with that one area of rust and 
>the fact that it probably doesn't have the #s block.  Any thougths on 
>price?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Dan

If you can fit your hand where the #'s on the block are then try using a
piece of putty or plastacine (sp?) to make an imprint that you can then read
upside down and backwards.
As far as price goes; just because someone spends a certain amount of money
on a car does not mean that that is what they should be getting back from
the sale of the car.  Its like these ads that I see where the guy has spent
$10,000 on a stereo for his Yugo and wants to sell the car for $11,000.
They spend their money in the wrong place and expect to get it all back...
As far as I am concerned, he/she should never have spent all that money on
buying the Yugo ;^)

 
Nick DiGiovanni
Port Coquitlam, B.C.
1970 4-4-2 - "Snarls Softly and Carries a Big Kick"

------------------------------

From: Nick DiGiovanni <ndigiova@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 03:05:47 -0300
Subject: Re: Clutch Fan 

At 03:39 PM 7/15/96 -0300, you wrote:

>He installed the studs after removing the old fan and spacer, only to 
>discover that the clutch fan blades would foul on the power steering pump 
>pulley, so he had to take it off. The thing must have been designed for a 
>different type of water pump. A shame, because it looked great. Had what 
>we believed to be a date code of "05 23 65". 

>Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

You need a 1 inch longer Olds water pump than the one you currently have.
If numbers matching is not important, then a rebuilt one goes for about $30
and many auto parts stores have them.  Ask for a pump for an A/C car or one
with H/D cooling. You will also need a different pulley for the water pump
in order for it to still line up with the crank pulley, P/S and alternator.
These pulleys are not made by anyone and GM does not have them either.  You
should be able to get it at the auto wreckers off of any Olds of that era
with A/C or H/D cooling.  If you use one from a car with A/C and P/S then it
will have 3 grooves (you only need the back 2).  Hope this helps.

Nick DiGiovanni
Port Coquitlam, B.C.
1970 4-4-2 - "Snarls Softly and Carries a Big Kick"

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 05:57:22 -0300
Subject: Re: SSxxx wheels 

>ssI wheels are the lowest number of the three wheels, followed closely by ssII 
>wheels that are next after the ssI's. Then, comes ssIII wheels, after the ssII 
>wheels because III comes after II. If you're refering to all three wheels
in the 
>same conversation then you would refer to them as ss VI. Some are kind of a 
>grayish silver and some are all colors. The grayish silver ones come in 6"
or 7" 
>by 14". The all colors ones come in 7" by 14" or 15".  What more could a
person 
>possibly want to know about these wheels?
>
>Art Fuller
>Semi Professional explainer
>
Art,
     Were you the technical writer for Monty Python's Holy Hand Grenade
manual in the "Holy Graile!??"  Just curious!     :)


    
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 455
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 05:57:19 -0300
Subject: Re: SSxxx wheels -Reply 

>>     I've got a question here, now.  Can anyone give a description of the
>>differences between these styles of wheels?  I've always run Olds
>>Rallye
>>wheels, and never got much more energetic than calling them 14" or 15"
>> Now
>
>Hmm...  I just described them last week.  I toss everything I write, so I
>can't resend it to you. 
     Maybe I'll catch that one someday...  I've got something like two or
three million postings on here that I haven't been able to read yet!  Man
they add up quick!

 Do you have the Olds/442 Year One catalog? 
>There's a pretty detailed description in there (catalog #R335) on pages
>203-205.  
     Don't got...  Bummer!         They sent me a free one for my
GS/Skylark, but they didn't send me the Olds one...
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 455
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 08:47:13 -0300
Subject: RE: Olds to Saab

I don't know, I am not 62 yet.

- ----------
From: 	Lloyd Culp[SMTP:bculp@hiwaay.net]
Sent: 	Thursday, July 11, 1996 6:17 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Re: Olds to Saab

Dave Paulison wrote:
>=20
> >Any others out there that found Saab a solution for Olds yearnings?
> >
> >DTW
>=20
> What the ??????
>=20
> --
> Dave Paulison        =20

Am I not supposed to be happy with my merry Oldsmobile?  Nobody told me.
- --=20
SLTG=06

------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 09:22:56 -0300
Subject: Re: 68 Conv 442

Very good Nick!!

Art Fuller
70442 4 speed convt. (34,000 miles)
70 w30 hdtp.
70442 4 speed hdtp.

------------------------------

From: tmorris@bt1dc18e.bet.ibm.com
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:24:28 -0300
Subject: Hagerty Ins #

Does anyone have the phone number for Hagerty Insurance? thanks.

Todd Morris
71 442 4 sp

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 16:49:39 -0300
Subject: Re: Hagerty Ins #

tmorris@bt1dc18e.bet.ibm.com wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have the phone number for Hagerty Insurance? thanks.

Not me, but you might try http://www.switchboard.com/

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: lawrencr@kostabi.gdls.com (Robert Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 13:45:58 -0300
Subject: Re: Hagerty Ins # 

> From oldsmobile-owner@ccn.cs.dal.ca Tue Jul 16 10:39 EDT 1996
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Date: 	Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:24:28 -0300
> From: tmorris@bt1dc18e.bet.ibm.com
> 
> Does anyone have the phone number for Hagerty Insurance? thanks.
> 
> Todd Morris
> 71 442 4 sp

I found this laying amongst the other 642 messages in my inbox...

	Consider a company like Hagerty Classic Insurance out of Traverse City, 
	MI.  They have no mileage requirement nor use restrictions.  They have a
	good reputation for fulfilling their part of the insurance obligation.  
	They insure abouat anything collectible & their prices are about the 
	same as J.C. Taylor's.  The toll free number is 1-800-922-4050.

	Bill Culp
	Decatur, Alabama

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Lawrence   | 1970 Oldsmobile 98 Convertible               .^.
lawrencr@gdls.com |  _________,~--,___________\____________     /9|8\
(810) 825-5450    |  |                |~    |        ___   |    \}|{/
Sterling Hts., MI |  =------(-o-)-------------------( o )--=      v

------------------------------

From: Roger Saladin <rsaladin@bright.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:02:51 -0300
Subject: Help with Olds ID 

I'm going to be looking at an Olds in the next couple days, and need some
help with ID. I've seen it from the outside (nothing under hood, nor the
inside except thru the windows). Talked to the guy on the phone, it belongs
to a relative. Car is orange, says 442, and W-30 on the sides. Guy selling 
says it's a '72, 350 engine.
   Now the fun part. I've got a '72 Cutlass, '72 it definitely ain't!
I'm thinking '70 - it's got the twin vertical bar taillights on each side,
and the center of the grill comes up with the hood. So does '70 sound right?
   If it's a 350 engine, it certainly isn't W-30. But if the guy can be off 
by two years, I'm sure he can be off by 105 cubic inches. What's the
quick and easy way to tell the difference between them? And is there an
easy way to tell a standard 455 from a W-30?
   For what it's worth, if anybody has the magic decoder ring (and it works
for that year), the VIN starts 3G87H12M-----.  I know 3 is for Olds, maybe
the 87 is for 442? What else?
   Thanx for any help.

                                                              Roger

   

------------------------------

From: Todd Hall <thall@en.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:12:09 -0300
Subject: Ram-Air Hood 

I'm looking for a ram-air hood for my '72 Cutlass S. Does anyone know which
models/years are interchangeable, or know if anyone makes a fiberglass
aftermarket hood? The car's original hood has chrome louvers on either side,
I just never liked those things.

Thanks.
 
Todd Hall
thall@en.com

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:14:10 -0300
Subject: Quest for Power, Part 1 (long)

Ever since I got my Cutlass I've had two ongoing engine annoyances.
The 2-barrel carb has never been right, despite replacing it: it seemed
impossible to get the choke set correctly and the thing just had constant
problems with flooding, hesitation and general misbehavior. Plus, a
2-barrel just wasn't enough fun. The second problem was a persistent
tick in the engine which appeared to all concerned to be a lifter problem.
That wouldn't be a surprise given the lack of maintenance by the
previous owner.

Given that, I decided over the winter that the solution would be to
convert the thing to an original 4-barrel setup and at the same time
replace the lifters. A new cam would also be in the mix while it was
apart. Over the last few months I've been collecting parts and I've been
ready to do the deed for the last month or so. Finally two weekends ago
came the appointed time when Olds expert and ace mechanic Donnie
Hirtle called me on Saturday morning with a summons to get to his place
and get the thing done.

When I arrived we started right in. He had moved his '68 W-30 outside to
make room and the '70 convertible that won a 1st place at the Olds
Nationals last year was out of the way. Parts started flying off the car
under Donnie's expert guidance and I quickly realized he is an excellent
mechanic - organized to a fault, methodical and careful but very quick.
By the time we were ready for dinner the engine room was half empty
and the garage was filled with stuff we took off - rad, shroud, fan, all
the pulleys and brackets, balancer, water pump (in bad shape, it turned
out - glad I replaced it), front cover, manifold and all the assorted top of
the engine stuff, valve covers, the whole shebang. I was pleased to
discover that there was far less sludge inside the engine than I feared,
and it was nice to get the old lifters out. I was surprised to see they
didn't have any wear on the bottom but most had discoloration, wear and
scoring on the shoulders at the top sides. The timing set came off and
while the plastic/metal gearset hadn't had chunks missing like some I've
heard about, the plastic was well-cracked and looked pretty shaky.
Donnie then called a halt to the proceedings and proceeded to prepare
a great dinner for three of us. His talents continued to amaze me. 

After we ate it was time to start putting things back together. New timing
set, front cover back on (not easy with the oil pan still on but we did it),
#402486 cam (.440/.440 lift, from a '72 350 manual trans car, donated by
Sandy Stewart of the list - thanks again Sandy - and just slightly hotter
than stock), new lifters, cleaned and checked pushrods, everything
torqued to spec. Then the intake went on and it started to look like an
engine again. We called it a night about 10:30. Early the next morning I
started again by cleaning and painting the pulleys and brackets and then
we started anew on the engine. Fresh paint on the front cover and front
of the block, rebuilt water pump on, then we attacked the balancer -
what a bear it is to put that thing on! With some well-placed leverage and
held in place by a huge pry bar it finally got torqued down tight, much to
our relief. The newly painted and detailed alternator went on next and
looked great. The rest of it went together pretty smoothly, even the stuff I
was worried about like the manifold-mounted remote choke (I know,
Chris W., you don't like these, but, hey, it's the way they came) and the
throttle cable - despite assurances, I wasn't certain I had bought the right
pieces. They were the right ones, but funnily enough the heat tube to the
air cleaner and the PCV vent pipe that I bought were from a 455.
Fortunately my old ones fit just fine, and as it turned out Donnie needed
455 ones. Thankfully Donnie had a stash of stuff that we used when we
were missing the odd bolt or clip that I'd overlooked in my parts gathering
and without that we'd never have finished. Finally we got everything
back together and what a sight! The red air cleaner with silver decal, the
gold engine, the black and silver accessory items... real pretty. It'll never
be so perfect-looking again, probably.

Finally the moment of truth... time to try and start it. We managed to get
the timing off 180 degrees the first time, but finally it caught and roared to
life. Lots of scrambling as Donnie tried to adjust the timing and dwell,
while we did a cam break-in. Lots of noise from the carb, sounded like a
vacuum leak. Discovered the idle compensator was missing from my
newly-rebuilt carb that I bought... hmmmm. Donnie rebuilds carbs in his
spare time and he was dubious right away. He wanted to tear the thing
apart right there but I talked him out of it. We finally got it running and
went for a test drive. Ran pretty good but with a very lumpy idle, even
after we plugged the missing idle compensator hole. And man, was it
running hot! Didn't overheat but it was definitely hotter than before.
Performance good but not great, and it seemed... variable. Performance
seemed to change over time as we drove. Hmmm again. Meanwhile the
tranny didn't seem happy at all. When you came to a stop it would
downshift into first with a thunk that shook the whole car. Strange. Didn't
know if we had vac leaks, timing problems, carb problems, what exactly.

By this time it was Sunday evening and time had run out on us. Donnie
set it up as best he could and I drove it home. Highway performance
wasn't bad, though nothing special. And much to my disappointment,
there was still a slight tick in the engine. Not the same or as bad as
before, but there nonetheless. We had heard it earlier in the day and had
traced it to the #2 cylinder. Pulled the valve cover and started the engine
to see if it was oiling OK - it was. After shutting it down, we pulled the
rocker pedestal and rockers from that cylinder to take another look. Some
wear, nothing out of the ordinary according to the manual, but one of the
valve stems had some wear and it seemed likely this was the source of
the noise. Short of pulling the head and doing a valve job there wasn't
much we figured we could do, so Donnie prescribed some EOS additive
and sent me home.

<end of Part 1.... more to come!>

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:23:03 -0300
Subject: Quest for Power, Part 2 (long)

<Now back to our saga....>

I was on vacation that week and out of town so the car sat. It didn't like
to start the one time I tried it, and the fast idle was very strange - you'd
kick it down and it would want to stall, then the slightest pressure on the
pedal would bring it back up to a very fast idle again. It did this until it
was warm - carb problems, I figured. I didn't have time to do much with it
so I forgot about it for a week. The next week Donnie was away, so it
wasn't until this past weekend that we got around to putting it right. He
installed a "borrowed" idle compensator - I still have to find one to
replace it - and then attacked the vacuum line setup. We had originally
attached them in the same way as the 2-barrel was done, but it turned
out this was wrong. Thanks to a diagram by Sandy Stewart from his
'68 and a couple of vacuum tees, we got the routing correct. The idle
immediately got a lot better and things were looking up. 

Then we tried testing for vacuum leaks. Donnie has a setup with a
propane bottle, connected to a long hose with a valve and wand on the
end. The drill is to pass this over the running engine and see if any of the
gas is sucked into a leaky spot. If it does, the idle should speed up or
smooth out and you've found the problem. This method wasn't new to me
but I was a little dubious about using propane. The stuff makes me
nervous. Regardless, we start it up and he climbs into the engine room
(he's a diminutive fellow, only about 5'6" and not very heavy) and tests.
No leaks at the front, no leaks at the carb or vac lines, no leaks at the
sides... he heads towards the back. I'm standing there holding the
propane bottle and I remembered thinking, "geez, I hope he's careful with
the stuff... there's the distributor and it has points, so that means sparks
there...." and I no sooner thought this when there was a pop and the
back of the engine burst into flames. A yellow fireball, not intense at all,
but about a foot around. I don't know how he did it, but he got out of
there in a flash (sorry) without getting caught up in the hood (the
dreaded '68 head-cracker) and within a couple of seconds it was out. I
just about had a heart attack. He was cool, though... "looks like you've
got good spark in the distributor, at least," he said with a grin but I knew
he was a little shaken by it. After a bit and with a little more caution he
finished checking for vac leaks and found none. 

By now the idle was much improved and it didn't seem to be getting so hot.
A test drive revealed that the trans problem had disappeared and
performance was now pretty good. He fiddled with the mixture some and it
was a little better still. I was happier, but Donnie didn't like the carb
yet and asked if I wanted the secondaries to kick in sooner for better
performance. OK, I figured, and off he went to his secret parts stash and
came back with something (don't ask me what) that he replaced on the
secondary linkage. Another test drive and I could see the difference.
After attempting to unsuccessfully install a clutch fan (see yesterday's
note) I went home, much happier. 

I drove it some on Sunday. It still doesn't idle as smoothly as it did
before but it's better than it was. No hot running either. The EOS seemed
to do its magic because the tick in the engine has basically disappeared.
The performance is lots of fun. At the low end there's not much difference
except that the hesitation just off idle that I always had before is gone.
In the midrange, especially when you tromp it at about 35 mph, the
downshift and secondaries launch it nicely... big potential for me to get
in trouble with this now. And at the top end, it's amazingly strong. I
don't know what it would do flat-out, but I had it up to faster than I
want to admit to on Sunday night and it still was pulling hard when I let
off. Nice, and nice sound too. 

Still fiddling a bit with the cold start/fast idle/choke business. I think
I'm always destined to have problems with this regardless of what I do.
Over the last few years I came to understand the Rochester 2-barrel
intimately, but a Q-jet choke and fast idle setup seems a lot different
and I have to figure that out yet. If I can't get it right, Donnie is just
itching to pull the carb (he already has a kit for it in his shop... he
still doesn't have confidence that it was rebuilt right) and put his own
hand to it. I'll give it a week or so. 

Was it worth it? I haven't added up what all this cost yet, but it wasn't
real bad. It took a long time to get everything gathered together, and I'm
glad that we took the time to plan it out so that we had most of the parts
first because I didn't want the car to be out of service for a long time.
It's nice to have seen inside the engine and know now that it's not all
sludgy like I feared. The lifters needed to be replaced and I'm glad we've
taken care of that. I don't know if I would replace the cam if I had to do
it over again because that added some time and effort but again I was
suspicious of the old one so it's probably just as well. The timing set
and water pump were ready to go so that's a big step forward. The sound of
the thing and the improved performance is a definite plus, and the look of
the engine is great. Plus it's just a lot nicer to be able to say that
it's a 4-barrel! Once I get this squared away, next come new heater hoses,
double-wire clamps, still more detailing... Funny how there's never any
shortage of things to do, just not enough time, money or motivation ot do
them all! 

So that's how I spent my weekends lately...


Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:49:19 -0300
Subject: Mon's posts

> cash into the car maintenance section of our budget. I am thinking of
> retiring the small block for a full-tilt big block. I have
> heard/read/listened that rollers offer a real horsepower bump at the
> expense of constant "tweaking".
> Question: How often do rollers need to be reset?

My question: *WHY* would they need to be reset? How the heck did Olds manage to
get their stock engines to go 100K or 200K miles w/o any valve adjustments at
all? What became of the automatic adjustment built into the hydraulic lifters?
Sounds to me like you're thinking solid lifters over hydraulic. -Chris-

> From: Dan Williams <dr_olds@kfmw.net>
> Subject: 68 Conv 442
> I went to look at a incredible 68 442 convertible.  White with a white
> top and blue interior.  All new interior and paint, rechromed bumpers,

If you are in a rustbelt area, check carefully under new paint. Heck, even if
not in such an area unless the car has documented history in arid lands.
"A coat of paint can hide a multitude of sins."

> The only stuff I could find wrong with the car, were that it had rusted
> underneath the windshield where the dash hits the firewall (under the

Cosmetically a drag. Involved to fix, as you surmised. Others have done it,
Mine still needs it.

> Also, I don't think the engine is the original one.  The strangest thing
> is that somebody painted the block gold and put an non 442 exhaust
> manafold on it.  This is exactly the way I found my other 68.  What is

Well, FIRST thing to check, is the block ID- if it's not a G block you can rule
out original engine right there. I suggest you check the block ID, head ID,
carb ID, dist'r ID, Engine Unit Number [on oil fill tube, 1st digit = last
digit of year of engine: 8xxxxxx = 1968, etc.], then worry about the VIN
derivative if all that checks out. Should have a J intake.
  Ask why the Gold paint and incorrect xst manifolds. Oh, and check the TRANS
for OG or better code on plate on RH side [TH400, better be!] and the VIN
derivative on the LH side just above the pan, midway fore-aft. Wd40 & a small
wire brush help immensely.

> it with painting 68 442 engines gold?  Was this some sort of disease or

Well, ever try to find Bronze paint. Pretend you don't have a HMNews, a Year
One Catalog, a Fusick's... Call your local Auto World, see what your Olds paint
choices are. For the Olds-impaired, it's Blue or Blue, Gold if you are lucky
enough to get a really smart counter person. Or Che*y Orange of course...

> to get the VIN off the engine and it is just impossible with an AC car.
> The alternator bracket is in the way.  I cleaned the stamping and tried

How about a blob of clay pressed against the cleaned surface? Get enough to rule
out or warrant further investigation...

> the fact that it probably doesn't have the #s block.  Any thougths on
> price? Dan

Have you checked JWO, HMN for similar cars in similar condition? Sounds high to
me... Gotta wonder what the hell cost $9K if the w/s rust didn't even get
tended to, and why did they skip that if the car was being painted?! i.e., what
*else* did they 'overlook' in that manner? -Chris-

> That's nothing special -- my stock 350 in my 69 will chirp the tire(s)
> shifting from first to second, with a TH350 (with a shift kit) and an open
> 2.78 rear.
> Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme

1- Shift kit, 2- only one tire to cut loose.
Therefore, that's still 'something' to chirp a posi 3.08

> Sometimes those engines are painted gold because they are 350's and not 400's.

After all the posts here, I sorta expect all readers to be up to speed at
instantly discerning a BB from a SB, at the very least... -Chris-

> stuff, and change the oil.  Then a nice wash, and *then* I took her for a shak
> down cruise.  Ahhh, nothin' like a top-down drive when it's sunny and in the m
id 80s :)  ...cruised up to Concord, by Walden Pond, back down through the farms
> in Lincoln, and even had some fun racing some T-storm clouds back home (I won)

*turns red and green with envy*

> place on the block to see what the original color was.  Mine was 425
> orange W/bronze beneath.

Excuse me? "orange" for a 425? Don't _think_ so! -Chris-

> Look for rust in all the floor pans, lower front fenders at rocker area,
> lower rear quarters, rear wheel wells, rear quarters at rocker panels,

Yeah, what he said! Describes my MI car to a T, a Russ-T that is!

> below rear seat, trunk, doors, hood, & deck lid.  Enough of this stuff &
> you can't fix the car no matter how pretty it is.  Front fenders,

Well, not exaclty true... it just gets to costing more than the vehicle's
[currently] worth. If it gets too extensive, your best route is the 'jack up
the VIN plate, slide a new AZ body under it' method.

> >sorry that she spent $9K, but that happens.  Get a friend who  is
> >critical & doesn't like Oldsmobiles (is there such a thing?) to look
> >W/you and listen to what they find, then sleep on it.  The worst thing
> >that can be done is fall in love; then months & $$$ later get a divorce.

Yeah, get an impartial advisor, a naysayer if you will, whose job is to offset
your enamoration. I did this with my bike & the convertible, still bought both,
but it helped me feel better about it. -Chris-

> Also, can the switch-pitch converter be controlled automatically?  Like
> have it in high-stall mode off the line / slow speed / low rpm, then
> automatically switch to low-stall to reduce slipping once the speed /
> rpm rises to a certain point.
> - --Dan (I'll figure these things out yet.)

Yes, the factory used a throttle position switch in '66. You can approximate
that with a micro switch or 2 hooked to the throttle mechanism. You can include
an over-ride switch inside to force it into performance mode anytime you wish.

> I have come to the conclusion that if we ever want the Titanic
> raised, we simply tell Chris Witt that it's got a really good
> driveshaft on it.
> Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431

And it fits a '68 W30 with manual trans!

> Chris,
> Hats off to a true blue hobbiest. I've brought home a lot of cars but would ha
> quit far short of where you ended up. You must just love a challenge.
> Art Fuller

Believe me, Art, halfway thru this I was wondering what the hell I do this
sorta stuff for... I guess I love the forged cranks & parts made of
unobtainium. We had quite a long laugh dragging it down the road as the tires,
then the rims were ground away... -Chris-

> Tire rotation goes uneventfully. For accurate torquing, decide to put
> one (1) drop of 3-in-1 Oil on each stud and on taper of each lug nut,
> since they're already looking a little oxidized. Torque each wheel to
> 100 ft./lbs. as specified in factory manual by tightening in star

When using 3-in-1 oil, you have to reduce your tork values to 1/3 or normal!
[just kidding! :) ]

> Damn. Inspecting the stud shows a semi-circle of rough break and the
> other semi-circle a smooth break. Metal flaw? Fatigue? This has never

Typical. the smooth part was broken some time ago, probably gradually working
its way across. All that was left was the rough part, it gave way suddenly when
you exceeded the strength of the metal. [Now you know why some were torked
less: the cracked studs :) ]

> The manual does not address whether or not to put any oil on the threads
> first, but I was under the impression that usually when you're trying to
> accurately torque something, you were supposed to _lightly_ lubricate it
> during assembly. Chris? Anybody else assembling engines? Yes or no?
> Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431

Well, the service manuals all have that warning statement about the *engine*
fasteners- the rod bolts, head & main bolts, etc., something like, "All threads
are to be cleaned and lightly oiled, or inaccurate torque readings may result,
and we'll have to come over and beat you about the head and shoulders with a
lightly oiled service manual until you come to your senses."
  I think oily is better than rusty. If they snap off, replace 'em, they were
obviously due for it. -Chris-

> Subject: Re: engine, nother parts? car
> > Chris,
> >You are such a great help.  I showed this message to my girlfriend & now I do
n't look to be such a pack rat as she thought.  Because of you
> my image has moved up a notch from the bottom.  Thanks, only you could
> do it. SLTG

Aha! that's it, my Purpose In Life is to make y'all look like sane idividuals.
Bringing home a 'parts car' with no visible useful parts, indeed! I took
photos, too, wonder if Bryce would scan 'em & post 'em....

> I had to drive 50 miles down an old dirt road on the rim (by the time we
> got 20 miles down the road, the tire was nothin' but shreds)!  Wasn't
> much fun at the time, but it sure makes me laugh thinkin' back...
>
> Moral:  Don't drive into the wilderness with nothing but a japanese jack!

Moral 2: remove the wheels occasionally, and while ya got 'em off, apply a
little lube to the critical areas. Moral 3: Don't over-tork them upon assembly.

>         i)bearing plate retainer nuts.  Hold axle bearing plate to the diff
> housing on a 10 bolt type O differential.
>         ii)Univ joint clamp bolts(4-fine thread).  Depending on which page you
> read its either 11ft/lbs or 70!
>      iii)Steering gear nut. Large nut holds pitman arm on. I cant believe this
> is supposed to be 180Ft/lbs

- -around 20
- -11
- -believe it.

> Summit, however, had Crane chrome-moly hardened pushrods, 5/16" diam., at
> 8.350" (+.100" over stock length) that fit the bill nicely, and for only
> $82. That and a couple of packs of .030" rocker shims, and I should be in
> business.

You're welcome. I coulda swore I told ya to call Summit... -Chris-
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:50:28 -0300
Subject: Re: Ram-Air Hood

Todd,
Both 71 and 72 use the same hood.  They are expensive ($1000 to $1400 range for 
excellant hoods). There have been numerous reproductions in the past, but nobody 
ever went to the extent of making one like the original.
All of the Oldsmobile parts suppliers,(Year One, Fusick, Tamraz, etc.), have a 
reproduction for sale.  Somebody said you could get something in the $400 range.

Art Fuller

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:03:01 -0300
Subject: c'ya!

As with others, I find that this is just too much fun. Consequently, other
things have been neglected. Feces is now impinging on the air-moving device.
After today, I shall be forced to sign off the best list there is, leaving you
in the capable hands of, well, lack of memory prevents my naming individuals,
lest I leave out one or 2 and offend...  in the the hands of these other
"self-appointed experts".

If any of y'all have '68-9 442 questions, engine ID questions, etc. Feel free
to call on me. I'd send the big ol' engine ID essay again, but in light of
Mondello's TM, and the new info that I have not incorporated into my file yet-
SMW 403's, '67 330's with 39 degree cam angle, etc.- I don't feel it's
presentable as is.

I might just have to send one more list of parts cars, now that I have it handy
at home, 'cause I suspect many newcomers since the last JWO article, and I have
a few new parts cars, too. Glut of engines right now- cheap 455, anyone?

It's been real, it's been fun, it's been real fun.
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:22:59 -0300
Subject: Re: c'ya! 

In a message dated 96-07-16 14:12:22 EDT, you write:

<< wittchri@pilot.msu.edu >>

Damn Chris - don't go!  When the ole inbox gets too full just delete 'em.
 Your knowledge and advice are the best on this list.

Don't do it.

Bob Handren

P.S. I expect to meet you at the 100th celebration next year.  Right?

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:33:36 -0300
Subject: Re: c'ya!

Chris,

Geez, this is just like my love life.... all the good ones are getting 
away! Gregg L, Wes, now you.... it's an epidemic worse than the 
Toro-virus. More serious, too. 

Damn, Chris, it's been good to have you here. An all-around good guy, 
and an invaluable source of knowledge and parts to boot. Is there any way to 
convince you to stay... digest, maybe? PLEEZE??? 

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:51:43 -0300
Subject: Re: c'ya!

Chris,

Sorry to see you're cutting out, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do.  You 
will be missed.  

See ya on the net, pal.

The 66 Toro and Mike (snif)


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:44:53 -0300
Subject: Wheels for sale

there's a guy with a wild '69 442

Anyhow, he has...
Holley 850 cfm new carb with air cleaner & fuel block $200
Set of *5* SSI's off the '69 original unused spare, need clean & paint, $450/BO
and
Stock '69 442 cam $50/BO
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 21:05:12 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals

PHartlieb@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Well, I'm gonna hafta start proof-reading things a little better before
> they're sent  

No harm done, Paul.

> I don't think it's that the Toronado isn't considered full-sized, which 
> of course it is, but that it seems to be a "class of it's own".  

I've always said that.    ;)

> NAOC seems to be strictly concerned with B & C body cars.

Their loss.


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Roger Saladin <rsaladin@bright.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 16:36:09 -0300
Subject: Need assist with Olds ID 

I'm going to be looking at an Olds in the next couple days, and need some
help with ID. I've seen it from the outside (nothing under hood, nor the
inside except thru the windows). Talked to the guy on the phone, it belongs
to a relative. Car is orange, says 442, and W-30 on the sides. Guy selling 
says it's a '72, 350 engine.
   Now the fun part. I've got a '72 Cutlass, '72 it definitely ain't!
I'm thinking '70 - it's got the twin vertical bar taillights on each side,
and the center of the grill comes up with the hood. So does '70 sound right?
   If it's a 350 engine, it certainly isn't W-30. But if the guy can be off 
by two years, I'm sure he can be off by 105 cubic inches. What's the
quick and easy way to tell the difference between them? And is there an
easy way to tell a standard 455 from a W-30?
   For what it's worth, if anybody has the magic decoder ring (and it works
for that year), the VIN starts 3G87H12M-----.  I know 3 is for Olds, maybe
the 87 is for 442? What else?
   Thanx for any help.

                                                              Roger

   

------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 17:21:12 -0300
Subject: Re: Need assist with Olds ID

Hey Roger,
Sounds like a 72. the 3 is Oldsmobile. The G is Cutlass. The 87 is 2 door 
hardtop coupe. H is 350 2 bbl. 160 h.p.  Next number, who knows, probably a one 
off prototype. Out of sequence, but the M might stand for Lansing.
Not a w30, never was, never will be.  Just a plain Cutlass.

------------------------------

From: Todd Hall <thall@en.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 17:37:46 -0300
Subject: Re: Need assist with Olds ID 

At 04:36 PM 7/16/96 -0300, you wrote:

>   For what it's worth, if anybody has the magic decoder ring (and it works
>for that year), the VIN starts 3G87H12M-----.  I know 3 is for Olds, maybe
>the 87 is for 442? What else?
>   Thanx for any help.
>
>                                                              Roger
>

        Roger,

                From the VIN it sounds like a '72

                3 = Olds
                G = Cutlass
                87 = 2dr Hardtop Coupe
                H = 350 2bbl V8 160hp (W-30 code = X)
                1 = ??? (you sure 'bout this number?)
                2 = model year (1972)
                M = Assembly Plant (Lansing, MI)

        This brings up an interesting point, I can't seem to find a listing
for         the 442 for the 1972 model year (2nd digit).
        The options are:
                        
                    D = F85 4d sedan
                    F = F85 2d Hardtop coupe
                    G = Cutlass
                    J = Cutass Supreme
                    K = Vista Cruiser

        Anyone know how to identify a 442 from the '72 VIN plate? I know
there         is some question as far as mine is concerned. I've got 442
fenders,
        grill plates, and decklid. Glovebox has "Cutlass" emblem on it and
interior doors have the "S" emblem on them. Vin plate indicates cutlass.

        Todd Hall
        thall@en.com
        '72 Olds Cutlasssomthinorother
  
        
                

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 16:25:56 -0300
Subject: Re: Need assist with Olds ID 

>Sounds like a 72. the 3 is Oldsmobile. The G is Cutlass. The 87 is 2 door 
>hardtop coupe. H is 350 2 bbl. 160 h.p.  Next number, who knows, probably a
one 
>off prototype. Out of sequence, but the M might stand for Lansing.

Yes, can you doublecheck that number you gave? For 3G87H12M, that "1"
doesn't seem to fit the pattern. The "H" would be engine; the 2 would
be year of manufacture, I thought, and the "M" would be the factory.

>Not a w30, never was, never will be.  Just a plain Cutlass.

All that aside, what shape are the front turn signals? Am I right in 
thinking that the 1970 ones are square, and '71-'72 are round?

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Gary" <fischer@adminnet.assiniboinec.mb.ca>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 17:40:07 -0300
Subject: Re: Need assist with Olds ID

>    For what it's worth, if anybody has the magic decoder ring (and it works
> for that year), the VIN starts 3G87H12M-----.  I know 3 is for Olds, maybe
> the 87 is for 442? What else?
>    Thanx for any help.
> 
>                                                               Roger

The first number gives the division your right 3 is for Olds
Second number is the series
The third and fourth give the body type    not sure what type 87 is
The fifth number give the engine   I believe H is a 350 2 bbl.
The sixth gives the model year    therefore a 71
The seventh gives the plant code    I thought this should be a letter 
not a number.
 
This info is from a Mitchels shop manual
Hope it helps

Gary    
 
> 
> 
Gary Fischer
Computer Services
Assiniboine Community College
Brandon Manitoba Canada

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 16:40:07 -0300
Subject: Re: Need assist with Olds ID 

> This brings up an interesting point, I can't seem to find a listing
> for the 442 for the 1972 model year (2nd digit).
>        The options are:
>                        
>                    D = F85 4d sedan
>                    F = F85 2d Hardtop coupe
>                    G = Cutlass
>                    J = Cutass Supreme
>                    K = Vista Cruiser

I can only answer this on the basis of what I remember for Pontiacs of
that year, but I think your answer would be not with the 2nd-character
letter but with the 2-digit code following. The letter denotes the
physical body style (i.e. the G would be a notchback; the J would be
a fastback, or vice-versa); the 2-digit code following would denote 
the model using that body style.

So for example, our old LeMans coupe was a 2D37. The same body shell
built as a true GTO would be a 2D39.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Paul Bartlett <bartletp@osshe.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 17:54:15 -0300
Subject: '66 Toronado -- recent experiences

The ELECTRIC WINDOW AND ELECTRIC SEAT on the 1966 Toronado stopped working
again.  I had "repaired" the relay behind the left kick panel, but the
solder must have come off the relay cover.  This left me driving the car
in the hot weather with windows closed and no air conditioning.  All of
this was further discouraging because I could not find a new relay.  I
finally found the solution -- an aftermarket relay made by "GENERAL" used
for wiring accessory fog lights.  The relay is the same size as the old
relay and works the same way.  I also mounted the new relay up under the
dash so that next time it goes bad I don't have to take out the left kick
panel and instrument pod. 

I got a used SPRING FOR HINGE ON DRIVER'S DOOR.  The spring is 6.25" long
and looks just like a spring used with brake shoes.  I think Oldsmobile
must have thought "why not use a brake shoe spring with the door hinges."
The driver's door now stays open instead of falling against one's shin,
which given its weight can be painful. 

Someone asked about the driver's side FLOOR MAT.  I don't know if mine is
original.  It doesn't look as professional as the rest of the interior. 
It is a black rubber mat with horizontal grooves in it that is attached to
the floor with chrome phillips head screws.  There appears to be some
rubber material under the mat, but no carpeting under the mat.  It has a
separate surround made of plastic, the same color as the interior.  The
plastic surround appears to be attached to the floor with rivets. 

I looked under the car to check the CV JOINT RUBBER BOOTS.  The rubber
boots on the passenger side are completely dry.  The ones on the driver's
side look "greasy."  The boots do not appear to be broken.  I have a lot
of questions ....

1.  There is some kind of clip on the end of the rubber boots.  The clip
must secure the end of the rubber boot to the shaft.  But I assume that
the shaft is the "drive shaft" so that shaft has to turn.  What stops the
rubber boot from turning and twisting when the shaft turns?

2.  When I go over a bump I hear a squeak in the suspension.  Could this
be a problem with the rubber boot being out of grease?  Otherwise I hear
no squeaks -- no squeaks going around corners.  How do I know if the CV
joints are going bad?

3.  Can I put new grease in the rubber boots?

I have found yet another 1966 Toronado around here.  Another gold one like
I saw in Medford.  I get to see it tomorrow.  It seems that the gold color
must have been popular in 1966. 

Not much else to report.  Thanks for all the advice and moral support for
keeping the 1966 Toronado on the road!

Paul Bartlett E-mail bartletp@osshe.edu

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 18:03:55 -0300
Subject: JWO 

Greg B,

Finally got a chance to read this months JWO. Just wanna say that was a very
nice article you wrote. It was fun reading it. Gregg Luglam is now a star and
Bryceman is now immortalized in the www hall of fame!

Keep up the good work.

Glad youre here for us!

Greg K  aka  Sparky

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 18:02:07 -0300
Subject: 68 Toro for sale 

To all:

Just got a line on a 68 Toro for sale near Milwaukee.

Dk Green 
100K
air
455....but has a cracked pistion (guy says it runs anyway...go figure)
otherwise car sounds like it is in nice condition

but:
only $500.00

Not a bad deal for a running (well sorta) parts car. (jeeze.... the front end
is worth that much)

I have his name and number if anyone is interested.....

Greg Kalkhoff

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 18:03:34 -0300
Subject: Re: c'ya! 

Chris,

Sorry to see ya go.....but I understand. I have been contemplating the same
thing occasionally, but I can never seem to do it.

I will miss your "achem" long winded, yet imformative and humerous anectodes
of your trials and tribulations with your projects. It almost made me go out
and buy a 442...well, almost....(:

Take care!  WE LOVE YA MAN!

Greg K   aka  Sparky 

------------------------------

From: grpruett@vt.edu (Greg Pruett)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 20:37:51 -0300
Subject: torque multiplication explained 

For those of you who wonder how a torque converter multiplies torque, here
it is.  As paraphrased from a circa 1967 petersen book called basic clutch
and transmission systems.  (Aren't we glad dad didn't throw this out all
those years mom wanted him to?)

The torque converter is a fluid coupling which uses what basically amounts
to two propellers that run in transmisison fluid. They have dozens of
blades.  The impeller (propeller connected to the engine) spins and pushes
fluid against the turbine(the propeller that is connected to the input shaft
of the trans) and causes it to spin.  (So far i've said nothing that most of
us don't know allready)  

Using an impeller to turn a turbine is not technically a torque converter.
The actual torqe multiplication is accomplised with the stator.  The blade
angle of the impeller and turbine is set for maximum efficiency. The problem
is that when the blades of the turbine are angeld for maximum efficiency the
fluid shoots back at the impeller at an angle that slows the impeller down.
The stator is a set of stationary blades mounted in a full circle between
the impeller and turbine.  The stator eliminates the retarding effect on the
impeller.  In addition, it multiplies torque by redirecting the fluid that
ricochets off the turbine back toward the turbine.  It bounces back the
fluid that gets deflected by the turbine and increases torque.  The book
gives the analagy of tieing a teacup to a roller skate and then spraying a
water hose at the teacup to push it down the sidewalk.  Some of the water
that hits the teacup is deflected back out and doesn't help to push the
roller skate. It is also pushing against the stream coming from the hose.
If you mounted some more teacups so that they catch the water getting
deflected and redirect it in the same direction as the water spraying from
you hose, the force of the redirected water combined with the stream from
the hose will hit the cup on the roller skate that much harder.  The end
result is that you've gotten torque multiplication by redirecting the water.
This is the same principle the stator works on.

The torque multiplication comes into play when the impeller is spinning
faster than the turbine; under acceleration.  The motor's and impeller's
revs are up and fluid is bouncing off the slower moning turbine.  At
cruising speed when the motor is spinning just enough to keep the car moving
a constant speed, the impeller are turning at nearly the same speed.  All of
the fluid in the torque converter housing is turning at the same speed as
the impeller and turbine and the fluid is no longer deflected off of the
turbine blades.  The stator creates drag at this point because it's
basically in the way.  To overcome this problem it is mounted on a one-way
roller clutch.  When fluid is being bounced off of the turbine and into the
stator, the clutch doesn't allow the stator to turn.  But when the turbine
catches up to the impeller and is no longer bouncing fluid back, the clutch
allows the stator to turn with the rest of the spinning assembly and since
it's free-wheeling, it's not creating any drag.  

The switch-pitch converters actually change the pitch of the stator blades.
The blades are either at two angles, high and low.  Low angle is about
32degrees and high angle is about 51 degrees.  The low angle is used below
about 50% throttle.   Above about 50% throttle opening the stator uses the
high angle.  It allows for greater multiplication of torque by redirecting
more oil to the impeller.    The low angle allows the motor (hooked to the
impeller) to spin less rpm for each rpm spun by the turbine.  The low angle
allows for greater efficiency at cruise speeds.  The high angle engages at
idle to decrease creep, since it's ineffective at low rpm.   The blades are
actuated by a hydraulic piston that rides in the hub of the stator.  The
piston is electrically controlled. 

Hope this is all intelligible.

Greg Pruett

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------------------------------------------------
The Hybrid Electric Vehicle Team of Virginia Tech
http://www.vt.edu:10021/org/hybridcar/index.html
FIRST PLACE IN THE `96 FUTURECAR CHALLENGE
49mpg city;  0-60 in 12 sec 

------------------------------

From: grpruett@vt.edu (Greg Pruett)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 20:38:08 -0300
Subject: is this heat soak? 

After rebuiding the 350 2barrel in my `72 vista-cruiser in March a nasty
little problem has arisen.  The starter won't crank the car after it's ran
awhile at operating temperature.  The problem does't happen after it cools
off at night and it didn't start happening until it started warming up in
the spring.  

When I turn the key to start, the solonoid does not even click into place.
The ammeter reads about a 20-25 amp discharge but that's the only reaction
from the car when I turn the key.  I've heard that F-85s have trouble with
overheating starters and I'm pretty sure the longer duration camshaft is
causing the manifolds(stock) to get hotter than they did with the stock cam.
It would make sense.  What I don't understand about my problem is that I can
use a jumper wire (originally installed to bump the engine from under the
hood) to crank the starter.  If the car won't crank when I turn the key I
just pop the hood, touch the wire to the positive post and I'm on my way.
I'm just getting sick of opening the hood to start the car...not to mention
it's embarressing in public.  I though maybe something next to the firewall
was getting hot because the firewall insulation was removed by the mice that
previously inhabited the car.  I messed with  the spade connections at the
neutral safety switch thinking maybe dirt on the connections was causing
problems when things got warm.  That seemed to help for awhile but the
problem has started again.

Any help would be very much appreciated.  I'm wearing out the hood hinges.  

Thanks
Greg Pruett

------------------------------

From: grpruett@vt.edu (Greg Pruett)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 20:38:02 -0300
Subject: rotor question 

Just something a couple of us wonder about.  Why do the front brake rotors
of F-85s have grooves running on both sides of the rotor's machined surface.
As if they were gouged there by a wayward rivet.  But I'm sure they belong
there for some reason.

Anyone happen to know why?

Greg Pruett 

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 16:55:24 -0300
Subject: Re: Need assist with Olds ID

At 04:25 PM 7/16/96 -0300, you wrote:

>All that aside, what shape are the front turn signals? Am I right in 
>thinking that the 1970 ones are square, and '71-'72 are round?
>
>Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431

Yes, 69-70 front signals are rectangular, 71-72 are round.  

- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: KEVIN HOOPINGARNER <khooping@bright.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 18:47:20 -0300
Subject: Re: Need assist with Olds ID 

Roger,

3G87H12MXXXXXX  V.I.N. Breakdown


3-      GM Division (Oldsmobile)

G87-    Cutlass S Hartop Coupe  Series 3687 (Which was available with the
442 option)

H-      350 2 bbl. (L32)  Single Exhaust  (Apparently was a 442 option??)

1 ? 2-  This position indicates model year & should only be 1 digit.  In
this case,
        based on the previous numbers, it should be a 2.  Not sure what the
1 is.

M-      Lansing, MI.

Your description of both the rear bumper & hood suggests the car has '70
parts on it however the V.I.N. indicates that it's a '72.

455 vs. 350--  On the front of the block in front of the intake manifold
you'll find a casting number which should read 396021 F or 396021 FA if the
engine is a 455.  The
F extension indicates a 68-72 block & the FA indicates 72-76.  Anything else
lets you know it's not a 455.

455 vs. 455 W-30-- Assuming the engine is a 70-72.  

                   W-30 heads were Cast F  for 1970
                   "    "       "       H  for 1971
                   "    "       "       Ga heads were used on all 1972 engines

                   Std. heads were Cast E  for 1970
                   "    "       "       G  for 1971
                   

    Intake manifold--    1970 W-30  Cast #      406115  (Aluminum)W/
"Oldsmobile W-455" 
                         1970-71    Cast #      407567  (Cast Iron) 4-bbl.
Manual Trans
                         1970-72    Cast #      404521  (Cast Iron) 4-bbl.
Auto Trans
                         1971-72 W-30 Cast #    407570  (Aluminum) W/ "OLDS
W-455"
                         1972       Cast #  407567/410448 (Cast Iron)4 bbl.
Manual Trans                                     
There are other indicators as well but w/o writing a whole book, this should
be enough to get you started.  I also noticed you are on Bright.net  Ohio??
I'm located in Findlay & you're the first I've noticed on the list from this
immediate area.  If you need any further assistance or want some specific
information, let me know & I'll be glad to help.  The information listed
above comes from a quick reference guide that I got from "Supercars
Unlimited" several years ago & has alot of useful information for parts
identification for '65 - '72 442's.  Their number is (503) 244-8249 for
those of you who are interested.  The book is "442 BY THE NUMBERS"


BEST REGARDS,
  

>
>   
>
>
>
>




44	44	44	44	22222222
44	44	44	44	22222222
44	44	44	44	22    22	
4444444	44	4444444	44	      22		
4444444	44	4444444	44	22222222
	44		44	222
	44		44	22222222
	44		44	22222222


Kevin Hoopingarner
Findlay Oh.					
'70 W-30

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 17:08:41 -0300
Subject: Re: '66 Toronado -- recent experiences

At 05:54 PM 7/16/96 -0300, you wrote:


>1.  There is some kind of clip on the end of the rubber boots.  The clip
>must secure the end of the rubber boot to the shaft.  But I assume that
>the shaft is the "drive shaft" so that shaft has to turn.  What stops the
>rubber boot from turning and twisting when the shaft turns?

The boots cover the CV (constant velocity) joints.  The CV joint is similar
to the universal joint on the driveshaft in a rear wheel drive car.  There
is a section of "driveshaft" on each side of the CV joint, and the boot is
attached to those sections.   
>
>2.  When I go over a bump I hear a squeak in the suspension.  

Probably control arm bushings...

Could this
>be a problem with the rubber boot being out of grease?  Otherwise I hear
>no squeaks -- no squeaks going around corners.  How do I know if the CV
>joints are going bad?

If the outer ones are going bad, they will click during turns; if they're
_really_ bad, they will click under acceleration, too.  If the inner ones
are going bad (I'm assuming they're tulip joints on them Toro's), on fast
acceleration the steering wheel will wobble back and forth.  It is more
common for the inner ones to go bad on heavier vehicles, or vehicles with
more power (Toro's, minivans, foriegn sports cars) than on lighter, less
powerful vehicles (Toyota Corolla, Nissan Sentra, etc...)
>
>3.  Can I put new grease in the rubber boots?
>
Yes.
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 17:13:17 -0300
Subject: Re: is this heat soak?

At 08:38 PM 7/15/96 -0300, you wrote:
 I can
>use a jumper wire (originally installed to bump the engine from under the
>hood) to crank the starter.  If the car won't crank when I turn the key I
>just pop the hood, touch the wire to the positive post and I'm on my way.
>I'm just getting sick of opening the hood to start the car...not to mention
>it's embarressing in public.  
>Greg Pruett
>
>
Clean the battery terminals!!
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 17:51:12 -0300
Subject: Re: is this heat soak? 

>I messed with  the spade connections at the
>neutral safety switch thinking maybe dirt on the connections was causing
>problems when things got warm.  That seemed to help for awhile but the
>problem has started again.

If that did help for a while (and not because you coincidentally had a
stretch of cool weather or something shortly thereafter), then your
solenoid may be going.

But what's that jumper wire under the hood attached to, the solenoid
terminal where the (um, purple?) wire comes in from the key switch?
If that's what it does, and the jumper _always_ works for you, then
the problem lies somewhere in the ignition switch or starter interlock
circuit. Personally, my money's on that starter interlock switch being
a little worn or out of position.

Oh, and what does "messed with the spade connections" mean? Did you
just unplug them and jumper them together to bypass the neutral switch?
Are they still like that? (And -- no offense -- are you sure you jumpered
the interlock connections and not the backup lights?  :-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 19:09:31 -0300
Subject: Re: Need assist with Olds ID

Andrew,
The front turn signal lens are rectangular, like the 69.  Look inside the 
drivers door for the blue sticker for a date, or the trim plate on the firewall.

Art Fuller

------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 19:12:46 -0300
Subject: Re: Need assist with Olds ID

Todd,
There is no special numbers for a 72 442 as the previous years. In 72 the 442 
option was numbers and stripes. It came with a 350 engine unless you wanted to 
order a 455.

Art Fuller

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 19:12:05 -0300
Subject: Carter Carb # 

Hi all,

Does anyone have a book that can cross reference a Carter carb number to a
Rochester carb number?

We came onto a Carter carb # 7037931 D-29. I believe it is off a 66 or 67
Toro. It also has stamped Carter made for Quadrajet on it. I heard that
Carter did make carbs for Rochester, but this is the first one I ever came
across. They have a rather unique way of sealing the well plugs in that there
are crimped over the sides instead of just pressed in as Rochester did. 

I just need to know what year Toro it wll fit.

TIA

Greg Kalkhoff 

------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 19:18:33 -0300
Subject: Re: Need assist with Olds ID

Dear "We're Friendly in Findlay",
Went to school down the street from your house in the early 60's. I was a 
Findlay Oiler. I'm from Middletown originally, but have lived in Texas for over 
30 years.

Art Fuller
Ex Oiler

------------------------------

From: Blaine Sanders 5483 <BLAINES@strata3d.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:43:24 -0300
Subject: '72 442's (was: Need assist with Olds ID)

>>>> <mefco@sprynet.com> 07/16/96 04:12pm >>>
>Todd,
>There is no special numbers for a 72 442 as the previous years. In 72
>the 442 
>option was numbers and stripes. It came with a 350 engine unless you
>wanted to 
>order a 455.
>
>Art Fuller

Anyone know where I can find a picture of this paint job?  I'd like to see
what it looked like...

------------------------------

From: Nick DiGiovanni <ndigiova@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:08:59 -0300
Subject: Re: Need assist with Olds ID 

At 04:36 PM 7/16/96 -0300, you wrote:
>the VIN starts 3G87H12M-----.  I know 3 is for Olds, maybe
>the 87 is for 442? What else?
>   Thanx for any help.
>
>                                                              Roger

The VIN tells you that it is a '72 Cutlass Hardtop Coupe built in Lansing.
The letter H denotes a 350 CU.IN. 2BBL (L32).  All 4-4-2's in '72 had a 4
BBL carb no matter which engine was ordered (350 or 455).  Therefore, I
would have to say that this car does not have the 4-4-2 option based on the VIN.

Nick DiGiovanni
Port Coquitlam, B.C.
1970 4-4-2 - "Snarls Softly and Carries a Big Kick"

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #239
********************************

