
oldsmobile-digest           Friday, 26 July 1996        Volume 01 : Number 247


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: JJF97@uno.cc.geneseo.edu
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 10:30:09 -0300
Subject: Resto  Tips  .....

Hopefully we'll have a few homemade tools on here that you can use in a 
restoration....  and this can be a useful one.


I have needed a "metal break" to help out in my previous restorations,
but hadn't the money to buy one (especially a large one to bend large
sheets of metal).

This is an inexpensive way and it gets the job done....
get 2 pieces of  " L " shaped angle iron and place them back to back 
(to form a " T ").  On either end of the angle iron, on the verticle
part of the " T ", drill a hole and place a bolt through the hole.
This keeps the flat surface level.  Set the bolted iron in a vise
(or 2 vises for larger iron).


There you go....  a metal break.  loosen the bolts and the vise to put
metal inbetween the angle iron, tighten stuff up, and bend with your hands
for slight bends, and use a hammer for 90 degree bends (by hitting the 
metal onto the angle iron).  this saves money, time, and is easy to 
store in a workshop.



this message i'll dedicate to andrew green (i believe that is the name).

Resto Corner  

- --joe ferrero

------------------------------

From: curly@sgi.net
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:58:00 -0300
Subject: Re: 1985 Olds 98 exhaust glows ... 

At 04:39 PM 7/24/96 -0300, you wrote:
>>hey guy when your exhaust glows that just points to one thing...something
>>is restricting the the exhaust gases somewhere between the motor and tailpipe
>>it's usually the converter!!! i.e you said you replaced but something is
>>restricting it. you better have changed the converter before you changed the
>>muffler or it is probably plugged!
>
>Isnt the cat designed for one direction of airflow? If so, and the cat was
>on backwards it could cause this, right?
>
>
> EXCESSIVE IRON rules the road!
>'65 442
>'66 Dynamic 88 B07 Apprehender
> bryceman@442.com
> www.442.com
>
>
>
>yep cat flow in the wrong direction would certainly cause this problem...better
quit letting the 3 stooges work on your car..ha

Jeff

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 13:10:52 -0300
Subject: Re: Resto  Tips  .....

> Resto Corner
> 
> --joe ferrero

BTW, Joe:  I, for one, appriciate that you're taking the time to write 
this stuff up.  A lot of us old timers forget that are some new kids on 
the block that can use this info.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 11:32:48 -0300
Subject: Re: : Fender 

At 10:45 PM 7/21/96 -0300, you wrote:
>A reminder - the convertibles are the ONLY Cutlass' with the C/S emblem on
the front fenders - so if you've got the bad fender dont let it go without
removing that emblem.  I had a body shop replace my front fender & they
didnt pull the emblem and I never found another (that was 14 years ago)
Just a word of caution!

Lisa Madsen
'67 Delta 88 Custom & '72 Vista Cruiser


Wanted: Right front fender for 67 Cutlass. Got to be a good one somewhere!
>
> >Dave Isho --- davei-2@mail.idt.net
>     >67 Cutlass CS Convertible
>     
>
>
>

Sincerely

James Thingwold
Glass Line Newsletter 
120 S Kroeger St.
Anaheim, CA.  92805-4011  USA

Phone: (714) 520-0121
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
E-Mail:                                  jht@exo.com  
OR                                        jim@hotglass.com

No frames :                          http://www.hotglass.com/

NetScape,  Frames :          http://exo.com/~jht/index.html
This document is designed to be viewed using Java & Netscape 2.0's Frame
Features
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

.

------------------------------

From: bryce_smith@442.com (Bryceman)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 12:18:10 -0300
Subject: Re: Sold! 

>The '82 Cutlass is now under new management; specifically, Bryce Smith's
>manager, Keith Wood. As I type this, Bryce and Keith are presumably
>somewhere on the road between Chicago and Topeka, Kansas, about 600 miles.

Andy,
Sorry I have taken so long to work on the photos you sent after the sale of
your Olds. In the letter you sent with the photos you said to move the
scans into an un-linked URL for you so you could try some creative work
with them. Are you still interested in doing this? If you dont have the
time I can try and put something together myself. If you are interested the
URL is   www.442.com/andy/purchase.html
Again I am truly sorry about the delay, there's just been so much going on.

          Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Oldsmobiles
'66 Dynamic 88 B07 Apprehender  '65 442   '70 Cutlass Convertible
           Email: bryceman@442.com  URL: www.442.com

------------------------------

From: bryce_smith@442.com (Bryceman)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 12:23:03 -0300
Subject: Shop Manuals 

Anyone have Chassis and Body service manuals for a '70 Cutlass Conv. for sale?

          Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Oldsmobiles
'66 Dynamic 88 B07 Apprehender  '65 442   '70 Cutlass Convertible
           Email: bryceman@442.com  URL: www.442.com

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 11:24:45 -0300
Subject: Re: Sold! 

>Sorry I have taken so long to work on the photos you sent after the sale of
>your Olds. In the letter you sent with the photos you said to move the
>scans into an un-linked URL for you so you could try some creative work
>with them. Are you still interested in doing this?

Yes, I'll experiment a bit. 'course, you have now gone and broadcast our
Top Secret URL to the entire list... Say, did I remember to forward those
photos of the interior, including the avalanche when the T-top liners were
removed? If so, are they scannable?

>Again I am truly sorry about the delay, there's just been so much going on.

Oh, right, like you have _other_ stuff to do around your office. May
I remind you who is paying your salary around here?

Um... Greg B. is, isn't he?  :-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: <tc75918@hpr169.mdhc.mdc.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 12:52:30 -0300
Subject: To forge or not to forge...

I've pretty much decided that I want a 403 for my 85 Cutlass
rebuild and need help deciding what I want for it.  Everyone 
seems to like forged cranks and pistons, but are they really
neccessary?  PAW for example has a piston/pin/ring/seals kit
for the 403 at $327 for cast pistons and $535 for forged.  I
can live with the extra expense if it's worth it as I want a
strong engine I can race occasionally and not have to worry
about, but what are the downsides to forged pistons?  Any-
thing besides cost?

Same with the crank.  I'm aware that the cranks for the SB
olds are cast, but I just read an article from the Feb 80
Hot Rod that states the forged crank from a '64-'67 330 is
a direct replacement for the SB, but will require a different
flexplate bolt pattern and you will have to chamfer the big
end of the rods.  Any downsides to a forged crank from a 330
other than the machining needed for the rods?  Also, wasn't 
the 330 the old 39 degree angle while everything more 
current is 45?

- --Dan

------------------------------

From: Bill.Shinko@po.cle.ab.com (Bill Shinko)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 13:12:39 -0300
Subject: Re: 1985 Olds 98 exhaust glows ...

- --IMA.Boundary.184113838
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     >Has anyone ever seen this condition before?  I believe it not to be 
     >normal and would greatly appreciate any help in isolating the cause.
     
     >Thanks in advance,
     
     >Ron
     
     
     To add to the list of possibilities, late ignition timing (e.g., 
     faulty mechanical advance) or excessively lean mixture (clogged hi 
     speed jets, manifold leak, etc.) can also cause glowing pipes.
     
     
     Bill Shinko
     bill.shinko@ab.com


     
     
     
     
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------------------------------

From: Graham Stewart <graham.stewart@utoronto.ca>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 17:44:02 -0300
Subject: Re: Vegas Report... good news and bad

On Tue, 23 Jul 1996 14:36:38 -0400 Blaine Sanders 5483 wrote:

> From: Blaine Sanders 5483 <BLAINES@strata3d.com>
> Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 14:36:38 -0400
> Subject: Vegas Report... good news and bad
> To: oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
> 
> The good news:  I found a 1969 Olds 98 with 38,686 original miles.  The
> interior was imaculate!  The dash looked like brand new...  According to
>
> The bad news:  I'm a poor boy, and I couldn't afford to take the whole car
> off thier hands.  The really bad news is, it's on it's way to the
> crematorium.  I did manage to save the heart of this huge baby... the
> engine. 
> -Blaine
>


Hi Blaine ...

A late response as my computer was broken ...

Well, yes it breaks my heart too ... right now I'm in the middle (first eighth, more 
likely) of restoring a 69 Delta 88 convertible.  Many interior and front end parts are 
interchangable between those 2 cars.  Oh well.  You're forgiven, though: I know 
what not having enough $ to pick up the cars you want is like.  I drive around and 
regularly see cars for sale, cheap.  Not great condition always, but still I try to 
imagine 10-20 years down the road and what it will be like trying to find parts for 
these things.  You can't save them all, but it's too bad there are these other 
pressures (storage space, junkyard time limits, value of steel, laws) that make it 
difficult to save a few more.

A few years ago I started to buy sixties and seventies Olds full-size cars as I saw 
them (working at 2 jobs then so there was a bit of $ around).  After a few weeks, I 
had 5 cars and no more storage space.  If you keep doing that you're in the 
wrecking yard business or your neighbours complain or whatever.  

I guess we should just do our best to keep what we can, within possibility, 
remembering that these treasures are finite.  Right now, I'm not throwing anything 
out, no matter how small or insignificant it is.  In a few years, we will be sorely 
missing all the cars that have slipped through our fingers.

Anyway, take care ...

Graham Stewart
graham.stewart@utoronto.ca

------------------------------

From: ndg@traverse.com (Nielsen Design Group)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 16:39:19 -0300
Subject: '66 442 found; Please don't reply to me 

Hello all,
Chris Witt let me know about this; hopefully someone on the list
can go snag this thing quicklike... This car is not mine, nor do
I know anything about it, so please call the # below.

> Copied from 'Old Cars Weekly' july 18:
>
> 66 442, 3x2's, 400ci, 3.90:1 posi, must sell.. $2000 obo
> (201) 473-1137

- -Darren Shroeger
 '68 442

Nielsen Design Group
114 East Front Street
Traverse City, Michigan 49684
616.946.0925
ndg@traverse.com

------------------------------

From: Michael Brady <drolds19@mail.idt.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 19:01:14 -0300
Subject: Air cleaner--hood clearence

Hello!! I have a 69'4-4-2 4-speed car with the following--hei dist.,
> holley 750 dp, edelbrock torker, elec.choke, My problem is finding a
> chrome air cleaner that will fit under my stock hood. Anybody have
> a suggestion??

------------------------------

From: ndg@traverse.com (Nielsen Design Group)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 17:02:26 -0300
Subject: Rhodes Lifters: Yeah or Nay? 

Anyone have experience running Rhodes variable lifters?
The idea is that they pump up to full lift as your Rpms
increase so that yer car can idle decently even with a
megalift cam.

Crane also makes a variable lifter which is quieter than
the Rhodes (they are known to go tick-tick-tick). Cheaper
by ten bucks, too ($60 vs. $69 in Summit).

See, I'm putting together what I hope will be a 450 hp
'68 Toro 455; the more lift the better to make it happen!
I've had my C heads' valve guides machined down per Mondello
recommendation; was thinking of running a .542 or so lift
cam. Maybe more, who knows. We'll see what JM recommends.

If either of these lifters have not proven to be sturdy
enough for heavy-duty street use (with very occasional drag
racing), I sure would like to know!

- -Darren Shroeger
 '68 442 / 4 spd

Nielsen Design Group
114 East Front Street
Traverse City, Michigan 49684
616.946.0925
ndg@traverse.com

------------------------------

From: Shawn Twomey <stwom@ctp.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 17:04:34 -0300
Subject: Hyper-something pistons

>     Yes, but I wasn't aware that anyone made them for a 350 Olds - I've 
>only seen them for Ch*vy's and Fords....

Keith Black makes them for BB Olds, but not SB   :(


- -----------------==============================
Shawn M. Twomey  |  "No!  Try not!  Do, or do |
stwom@ctp.com    |   not.  There is no try."  |
517 346-7104     |   -Yoda                    |
- -----------------==============================
                                

------------------------------

From: Todd Hall <thall@en.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 17:17:58 -0300
Subject: Re: Shop Manuals 

At 12:23 PM 7/25/96 -0300, you wrote:
>Anyone have Chassis and Body service manuals for a '70 Cutlass Conv. for sale?
>
>          Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Oldsmobiles
>'66 Dynamic 88 B07 Apprehender  '65 442   '70 Cutlass Convertible
>           Email: bryceman@442.com  URL: www.442.com
>

I've been looking for a shop manual for my '72 and found someone right in my
neighborhood!

Try  Lloyd's Literature 
     Box 491
     Newbury, OH 44065
    
Phone:  (216) 338-1527
        or 800-BY-A-BOOK

I just got off the phone with him, he has shop, parts, owner's manuals,
sales literature, showroom albums, etc factory printed for Oldsmobiles.
I asked him about the one your looking for and he has it. I forgot to ask
the price {SMACK} but my shop manual was $79, I imagine the others are about
the same.


Todd Hall
'72 4-4-2
Cleveland, OH  

------------------------------

From: Shawn Twomey <stwom@ctp.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 17:08:35 -0300
Subject: Re:  455 vs. 425

>By the way I own a 9 sec Olds.

Is that a pick up line, Chris?  "OH, and...by the way...."

Seriously, though, good job - we need more reputation-builders like
yourself, Bob H., et al, at the race tracks, if for nothing more than to
attract the interest of aftermarket parts manufacturers.


- -----------------==============================
Shawn M. Twomey  |  "No!  Try not!  Do, or do |
stwom@ctp.com    |   not.  There is no try."  |
517 346-7104     |   -Yoda                    |
- -----------------==============================
                                

------------------------------

From: Shawn Twomey <stwom@ctp.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 17:19:47 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: New Motor Considerations 

>Yeah, I'm hoping that somebody will wise-up and make some for my 307 
>     by the time I'm ready to rebuild it in a year or two.  Just in case I 
>     get a wild-hair and want to try nitrous or a blower or something. . .

I was checking out bowlings automotive programs this afternoon, at:

http://devserve.cebaf.gov/%7Ebowling/auto.html

Thanks to whoever posted that URL in the first place.
Anyway, they have a CR change -> HP change program, where you plug in
current CR, current HP, and new CR, and it spits out new HP.  I plugged
in 8.0:1, 180 hp, which Tom and others will recognize as the high-output
307 in '83-'84 H/Os and '85 442s.  Assuming an intrepid engine-builder
was trying to get the most from his 307, I said 9.0 new CR, and it came
back 186 HP, +4%.  Hmm....disappointing.  Plug in 9.5 new CR (pushing
the limits of premium unleaded), came back with 189 HP, which is +5%.

I don't know if this surprises anyone else, but _I_ was under the
impression that compression ratio was more important to power than this
seems to indicate - I expected, say, maybe twice the increase the
program showed.  Of course, this program isn't the final word, but
there's no reason it should be wildly inaccurate, correct?

Its no wonder not many people want to build 307s for performance.


- -----------------==============================
Shawn M. Twomey  |  "No!  Try not!  Do, or do |
stwom@ctp.com    |   not.  There is no try."  |
517 346-7104     |   -Yoda                    |
- -----------------==============================
                                

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 12:23:13 -0300
Subject: Re: Air cleaner--hood clearence

Michael Brady wrote:
> 
> Hello!! I have a 69'4-4-2 4-speed car with the following--hei dist.,
> > holley 750 dp, edelbrock torker, elec.choke, My problem is finding a
> > chrome air cleaner that will fit under my stock hood. Anybody have
> > a suggestion??


Mike:

You might try the open element GM air cleaner & just put a low height 
element in it.  After market ones are made like this too.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: Shawn Twomey <stwom@ctp.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 17:25:30 -0300
Subject: Glowing Monte

>I used to have a Monte Carlo SS that had had the emissions equipment cut off
>of it. One time I got really pissed off b/c the egr valve trouble code kept
>coming on so I just held it to the floor for about 2 miles.

THAT's the way to treat a Monte!!  Kudos.

> Saw sparks flying
>out of the back of the car and stopped.

Whatever for?  Run that sucker out.  ;-P


- -----------------==============================
Shawn M. Twomey  |  "No!  Try not!  Do, or do |
stwom@ctp.com    |   not.  There is no try."  |
517 346-7104     |   -Yoda                    |
- -----------------==============================
                                

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 12:27:04 -0300
Subject: Re: Rhodes Lifters: Yeah or Nay?

Nielsen Design Group wrote:
> 
> Anyone have experience running Rhodes variable lifters?
> The idea is that they pump up to full lift as your Rpms
> increase so that yer car can idle decently even with a
> megalift cam.
> 
> Crane also makes a variable lifter which is quieter than
> the Rhodes (they are known to go tick-tick-tick). Cheaper
> by ten bucks, too ($60 vs. $69 in Summit).
> 
>
> If either of these lifters have not proven to be sturdy
> enough for heavy-duty street use (with very occasional drag
> racing), I sure would like to know!
> 
> -Darren Shroeger
>  


Darren:

The Rhodes ones were standard issue on Crane equipped Groupe 19 AMX's.  
I have never heard anyone complaining except for the aforementioned tic, 
tic, tic.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: eda@dl.tc.faa.gov
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 16:08:00 -0300
Subject: Re: 1985 Olds 98 exhaust glows ... 

curly@sgi.net wrote:

> restricting it. you better have changed the converter before you changed the
> muffler or it is probably plugged!

Am I reading this wrong, or is there something I don't know here?
Are you saying that the converter is plugged because a new muffler was
put on, or...???

Ed Atlee			'77 Cutlass Supreme
eda@dl.tc.faa.gov		'84 Hurst/Olds
	R O C K E T	P O W E R E D ! !

------------------------------

From: Shawn Twomey <stwom@ctp.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 17:40:47 -0300
Subject: FAQ

> I create the FAQ in MS Word, and export text with line breaks.

H-T-M-L!!  H-T-M-L!!  Gimme an 'H!' .....

*cheerleading mode off*

I'll do the conversion if you want to make the updates on it.  Just a
thought.  Or actually, Word has (or will have) an HTML generator, so
I'll be able to take the Word docs and churn out HTML docs for the web
page, so nevermind.  By the way, Bryce, if you want to put it up, please
do so....I only intended it to be on my page temporarily, but I can keep
it there no problem if you don't have server space or are swamped with
other stuff.


- -----------------==============================
Shawn M. Twomey  |  "No!  Try not!  Do, or do |
stwom@ctp.com    |   not.  There is no try."  |
517 346-7104     |   -Yoda                    |
- -----------------==============================
                                

------------------------------

From: Blaine Sanders 5483 <BLAINES@strata3d.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 17:45:40 -0300
Subject: '66 442 found; Please don't reply to me -Reply

> Copied from 'Old Cars Weekly' july 18:
>
> 66 442, 3x2's, 400ci, 3.90:1 posi, must sell.. $2000 obo
> (201) 473-1137

Damn!  Why doesn't anything like that show up around here?  Were all
the Oldsmobiles ever made sold in the Eastern US?  It seems like
everyone on this list lives back east.  I think I live in hell (grrr).

- -BS

------------------------------

From: <tc75918@hpr169.mdhc.mdc.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 17:44:13 -0300
Subject: Olds/Ch*vy Rocket Block?

Just read a short article from March 92 Car Craft about a new Ch*vy
racing block, but it's built by Olds and called a Rocket block.  Any
body have info on this?  Says it's based on GM's coporate engine
which is the Ch*vy pattern.  I assume then that everything on it is
Chevy pattern: heads, intakes, bell housing, etc.  

Anybody know about this block?  Is really just a Ch*vy block but
manufactured by Olds?  

- --Dan

------------------------------

From: Shawn Twomey <stwom@ctp.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 17:44:23 -0300
Subject: A real gem

>>     Yes, that's right...158 miles.  The guy is asking $14,900 for it.  
>>     What a beauty this car is.
     
>Um, is this the 4-door? Color? Don't know what to think about that 
>price. 

No doubt.  Pay $15K, put a few thousand miles on it, just lost $10K of
value.  Or if not to drive, that's expensive and unwieldy art.

Shawn
"I don't collect cars, I drive them"

- -----------------==============================
Shawn M. Twomey  |  "No!  Try not!  Do, or do |
stwom@ctp.com    |   not.  There is no try."  |
517 346-7104     |   -Yoda                    |
- -----------------==============================
                                

------------------------------

From: Dave Isho <davei-2@mail.idt.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 17:45:24 -0300
Subject: Re: Air cleaner--hood clearence 

At 12:23 PM 7/25/96 -0300, you wrote:
>Michael Brady wrote:
>> 
>> Hello!! I have a 69'4-4-2 4-speed car with the following--hei dist.,
>> > holley 750 dp, edelbrock torker, elec.choke, My problem is finding a
>> > chrome air cleaner that will fit under my stock hood. Anybody have
>> > a suggestion??


Mike, 

Places like Summitt, or ASAP, or Jegs sell low profile air cleaners. The
base actually has a depression in it so the air filter sits around the carb
instead of above it. I've used them in the past with good results. Let me
know if you need info I have the catalogs and can look up the numbers for you.

 >Dave Isho --- davei-2@mail.idt.net
     >67 Cutlass CS Convertible
     

------------------------------

From: Chris Urban <urbanch@magi.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 17:54:56 -0300
Subject: RE: Rhodes Lifters: Yeah or Nay?

Its true they really do work, they are a bit noisier than conventional =
ones but they are reliable. The only concern I have is in time will they =
still continue to expand to their full height once they get carboned up =
a bit.

- ----------
From: 	Lloyd Culp[SMTP:bculp@hiwaay.net]
Sent: 	Thursday, July 25, 1996 11:27 AM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Re: Rhodes Lifters: Yeah or Nay?

Nielsen Design Group wrote:
>=20
> Anyone have experience running Rhodes variable lifters?
> The idea is that they pump up to full lift as your Rpms
> increase so that yer car can idle decently even with a
> megalift cam.
>=20
> Crane also makes a variable lifter which is quieter than
> the Rhodes (they are known to go tick-tick-tick). Cheaper
> by ten bucks, too ($60 vs. $69 in Summit).
>=20
>
> If either of these lifters have not proven to be sturdy
> enough for heavy-duty street use (with very occasional drag
> racing), I sure would like to know!
>=20
> -Darren Shroeger
> =20


Darren:

The Rhodes ones were standard issue on Crane equipped Groupe 19 AMX's. =20
I have never heard anyone complaining except for the aforementioned tic, =

tic, tic.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: ndg@traverse.com (Nielsen Design Group)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:23:28 -0300
Subject: What about the rear end? 

Ok guys,
So, as I stated earlier, I'm putting a rebuilt '68 Toro 455 in my '68
442 w/ M20 wide ratio 4 spd. Gearing suggestions?

The car will be a "fun car." Probably driven most days in the summer
and into the fall. But that's it. Not driven to work, just to play.
But the car should be "road trip compatible" as there are few more
enjoyable ways to roadtrip than in an officially fast car!

I was initially thinking like 3.42:1 (posi, what else?) 12 bolt.
So, anyone got one lying around? ;^)

One of the lovely things about '68 is that it is the only year to have
31 spline axles. So finding a "correct" rearend is not so likely. Figure
I should just get what will work best AND hold up.

Any recommendations?

I should note that I receive the digest version of the list, so questions
posed will not be seen until tomorrow or so.

- -Darren Shroeger
 '68 442

Nielsen Design Group
114 East Front Street
Traverse City, Michigan 49684
616.946.0925
ndg@traverse.com

------------------------------

From: ndg@traverse.com (Nielsen Design Group)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:25:20 -0300
Subject: Qjet well plug paranoia 

Greg said:
>I bought the carb already rebuilt and didn't check the well
plugs. I have no idea whether they were looked at or not by the
rebuilder. I suspect them because a leaky well plug would likely cause
such a condition at idle, but that after hi-speed running it might take a
while before enough excess fuel would get into the system to richen the
mixture to the point where the plugs wouldn't fire it totally. But I'm a
rookie at Q-jets, so I'm just guessing.

Oh, no- Now you guys've got me paranoid about my well plugs! I went and
rebuilt my qjet w/o looking at the well plugs, and now my car needs
to crank over excessively if it sits for a day or two. Hasn't been bad
enough to require the ol' gas in the carb trick, tho'.

What do y'all think about just epoxying the well plugs as a Lifetime Fix?

- -Darren Shroeger
 '68 442

Nielsen Design Group
114 East Front Street
Traverse City, Michigan 49684
616.946.0925
ndg@traverse.com

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:58:45 -0300
Subject: Re: Leaky Well Plugs in Qjet?

I tried the JB Weld fix on my Qjet and it works just fine.  Starts up on 
the first crank in the morning and all.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
 revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
 information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
 Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
 been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

From: SG Hartfelder <shartfel@planet.eol.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 19:13:08 -0300
Subject: Hello

I've sent out a couple of messages with no 
response.

Is anyone out there?

HELLO.....  HELlo....  HEllo...  Hello..  hello

Is my e-mail list working?

------------------------------

From: Dave Isho <davei-2@mail.idt.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 19:16:00 -0300
Subject: Re: Hello 

At 07:13 PM 7/25/96 -0300, you wrote:
>I've sent out a couple of messages with no 
>response.
>
>Is anyone out there?
>
>HELLO.....  HELlo....  HEllo...  Hello..  hello
>
>Is my e-mail list working?
>
got this one

 >Dave Isho --- davei-2@mail.idt.net
     >67 Cutlass CS Convertible
     

------------------------------

From: "Andrew A. Senko" <senko@reston.ans.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 19:33:54 -0300
Subject: Altanta Nats next month

Well, it turns out that I'm not going to make it to Nationals this year.
However, I did make reservations at the host hotel some time ago.  I have
every night reserved.

If anyone wants this reservation, then we can see about getting it
transferred, otherwise I will simply cancel.

If you are interested send mail to ME and NOT to the list.  DO NOT REPLY TO
THIS MESSAGE -- that would go to the list.
Write a new e-mail message and send it to me.
My e-mail address is senko@reston.ans.net


P.S.  Is it too late to get setup for Lansing 97 ?
- -- 
                    _
                    |\            Convertibles                     
     .__====-_._____|_\______         Rule!                        Drew Senko
     [   ___  |-     |  ___  \                           senko@reston.ans.net
     =\_//.\\_|______|_//.\\__)                  http://members.gnn.com/senko
_________\_/____________\_/__________________________________________________

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 14:33:37 -0300
Subject: Re: Hello

SG Hartfelder wrote:
> 
> I've sent out a couple of messages with no
> response.
> 
> Is anyone out there?
> 
> HELLO.....  HELlo....  HEllo...  Hello..  hello
> 
> Is my e-mail list working?


Well of course we hear you!  You don't have to yell.  We are just trying 
ot ignore you.  Remember ignorance is bliss.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: DELPROPO@emuvax.emich.edu
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 19:46:20 -0300
Subject: Re: WOODWARD Cruise 

Sorry I wont be attending the Midland Show , plan to go to the Michigan 50s
festival in Novi. They have a very larg show and after they cruise Grand River.
I hope to see lats of Oldsmobile At Both events. Greg Del 70 cutlass Supreme.

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 23:00:06 -0300
Subject: Re: Leaky Well Plugs in Qjet?

Paul R. K. Kuromoto wrote:
> 
> I tried the JB Weld fix on my Qjet and it works just fine.  Starts up 
> on the first crank in the morning and all.

Hey, Sparky,

Did you ever try that Marine-Tex on the Qjet that we talked about?

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 22:57:06 -0300
Subject: Re: FAQ

Shawn,

I have a freeware HTML editor called DiDa that works pretty well.  I 
forget where I downloaded it from but you can search for it or let me 
know if you want a copy.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:58:08 -0300
Subject: Olds featured in "Car Collector" Magazine 

Yikes, I think I forgot to post this info when I first got it... 
better late than never, I guess. Anyway, "Car Collector" magazine
has a feature story in either this month's (if I'm lucky) or last
month's (if I'm not) issue about the 100th anniversary of Olds,
with an overview of the history of the company and a pretty good
selection of photos from the archives. Their editorial quality has
frankly taken a real nosedive over the past year (it's as if they 
fired their proofreader or something, and their newfangled web 
page at http://www.carcollector.com is riddled with broken links and 
typos), but _this_ issue is a keeper. I'll try to dig out my copy 
again tonight and post more specifics real soon...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 20:29:21 -0300
Subject: Re: My next driveway cover??? 

In a message dated 96-07-24 19:00:41 EDT, you write:

<< <<  and definately not much of a "fun" color :  A few shades
  worse than vomit-yellow!   >>
 
 But yellow is a "fun" color.  Definately a convertible color.  (And you
 better watch it because my '72 Supreme is yellow!)  >>


Hey, watch it.  Both our cars are yellow. :-))

Bob Handren                         OCA# 7728
'67 W-30 Modified                  '70 SX Convertible
Handren Associates, Inc.       Oviedo, FL

------------------------------

From: mike.blankenship@medaphis.com
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 20:35:35 -0300
Subject: Re: My next driveway cover???

I would take yellow over vomit any day of the week!

_______________________________________________________________________________-

In a message dated 96-07-24 19:00:41 EDT, you write:

<< <<  and definately not much of a "fun" color :  A few shades
  worse than vomit-yellow!   >>
 
 But yellow is a "fun" color.  Definately a convertible color.  (And you
 better watch it because my '72 Supreme is yellow!)  >>


Hey, watch it.  Both our cars are yellow. :-))

Bob Handren                         OCA# 7728
'67 W-30 Modified                  '70 SX Convertible
Handren Associates, Inc.       Oviedo, FL






- ----- End Included Message -----

------------------------------

From: Mike Hall <mikehal1@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 21:34:35 -0300
Subject: Re: 70 350 engin nock

>wELL, I have used 93 octain fuel and still get a ping now and then, I was
>responding to a claim that octain boost can burn up spark plugs. This may be
>true. Do you ever get a ping using 93 fuel.


I use Super 104+ with Sunoco 94 and plugs look just fine. I am running 
Mondello forged pistons advertised at 10.25:1, both heads were shaved. I 
do have pinging on acceleration with 94 octane fuel. Normal driving, no 
ping whatsoever but there is a dramatic loss of performance (at least it 
feels that way)...


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Michael R. Hall                                  Ortonville, Michigan
E-Mail: mikehal1@ix.netcom.com                   OCA #17903
The Oldsmobile Stable:    
     1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass S, 380 horses of pure Mondello fun...
     1991 Oldsmobile Eighty-Eight Royale Broughm, the classy one...
         Brought to you by a Apple Power Macintosh 7100/80
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 20:36:30 -0300
Subject: FAQ

Will someone kindly post the address to request the FAQ from?  I seem to
have lost it (the address, not the FAQ, dummy...)

Thanks!
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: DELPROPO@emuvax.emich.edu
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 21:10:02 -0300
Subject: Re: 70 350 engin nock 

Hay thanks, another fuel that is good is Mobile 93, out of all the stations in
the area this is one i found to work well for my car. HAy I noticed you are
from Michigan, A nice car show to attend is the 50s festival in Novi this
weekend. Thanks for the i[Cnfo....Greg Del.   70 Cutlass Supreme, 68 Cutlass   
 

------------------------------

From: Dan Williams <dr_olds@kfmw.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 14:53:56 -0300
Subject: Olds meets

Anybody here ever go, or are going to go to the Quad States show at the 
Wisconsin Dells?  I'm thinking of going, but would like to know if it is 
worth the trip.  Also, any shows in the Chicago area?  I'm only 3.5 
hours from there.

- -Dan

------------------------------

From: rhubarb@mindspring.com (Ed Rogers)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 21:37:52 -0300
Subject: Re: Wanted: Fender 

>Paul,
>I'll see if I can find one of those fenders.  Let you know.
>
>Art Fuller

Hi there,

I saw your post about fenders.  Do you have a right front fender for a 69
442 convertible?

Also, does it look like you will be able to bring the black 69 dash with
you to Atlanta?

Let me know,

Ed

- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Interested in Satellite TV, Home Theatre, Muscle Cars, Recording Studios,
or Computers? Me Too !
Check out my Web Page "http://www.mindspring.com/~rhubarb"

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 22:23:06 -0300
Subject: rotators

How do rotators work??  What is gained/lost by using them?  Are they only
used on BB heads, or can they be used on SB heads?
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: Chris Urban <urbanch@magi.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 22:41:57 -0300
Subject: RE: rotators

Best thing is throw them away, they are extra valve train weight.

- ----------
From: 	Dave Paulison[SMTP:dpauliso@metrolink.net]
Sent: 	Thursday, July 25, 1996 9:23 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	rotators

How do rotators work??  What is gained/lost by using them?  Are they only
used on BB heads, or can they be used on SB heads?
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: Rod Rickenbach <rod@hopi.dtcc.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 22:47:55 -0300
Subject: Re: '66 442 found; Please don't reply to me -Reply

On Thu, 25 Jul 1996, Blaine Sanders 5483 wrote:

> > Copied from 'Old Cars Weekly' july 18:
> >
> > 66 442, 3x2's, 400ci, 3.90:1 posi, must sell.. $2000 obo
> > (201) 473-1137
> 
> Damn!  Why doesn't anything like that show up around here?  Were all
> the Oldsmobiles ever made sold in the Eastern US?  It seems like
> everyone on this list lives back east.  I think I live in hell (grrr).

I am pretty sure this is the phone number of Ed Fochi (sp).  Don't be too 
disapponted - If he's selling it, it's worth about $500...

He goes around buying up these cars and usually strips them down and 
sells the parts...  (not only 442's/Cutlasses, but GTO's & Buicks - 
mostly GM stuff, usually advertises in Hemmings)

(Everyone I have talked to who has dealt with Ed has been, ohhh how 
should I say this... "less than pleased".  In fact, I am pretty sure they 
won't let him advertise in JWO due to complaints.)

- -Rod
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Rod Rickenbach                                       Delaware Tech
     rod@dtcc.edu                                 Computer Services Department
http://www.dtcc.edu/~rod                            Stanton/Wilmington Campus

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 23:10:12 -0300
Subject: Re: Rhodes Lifters: Yeah or Nay? 

Darren:

JM will tell you not to use the Rhodes lifters.  He was adamant with me about
that several years.  Apparently there is some "bad blood" there.  He told me
if I bought a cam from him and used Rhodes lifters he would void the
warranty.  :-(

So, you know what I did?  I used them anyway. :-)  If you get fortunate
enough to speak to the man hisself, it would be interesting to know if he
still makes the statements he made to me.  Sounds like the beginning of a law
suit to me.

Anyway.  Yes. They do make noise.  But it isn't much.  On idle it sounds like
an old solid lifter car.  Some folks like the sound, some don't.  So that's
subjective.  People do hear you coming.

Since they "bleed" oil (which is a nice way to say they are designed to leak)
they operate pretty much the way they claim.  I had no problems with mine,
the idle of a long duration cam is improved.  The only problem I can think of
is that they must, by design, be affected by oil grade, temperature and the
oil pressure in each particular engine.  Which means they are probably not
consistent in the amount of duration and lift over a wide range of these
variables.

The "other" controled bleed lifters, since they don't produce any clatter at
low rpm, can't, IMHO, be doing exactly the same thing.  If you are looking to
run the biggest cam you can get away with I would use the Rhodes.  They are
the best way I know of to get away with running a cam that would otherwise
drive you nuts.  There should be no longevity concerns.  I've used several
sets over the years.  I'd beat a dollar to a donut that instead of
manufacturing their lifters from scratch, Rhodes buys generic items, machines
the groove in the center piston, box 'em & sell 'em. BTW, you can sometimes
see the groove without disassembling the lifter.

If it's max rpm you want, the best way to achieve that is to pre-load the
lifters as discussed here on several occasions. You don't need Rhodes or
"high rpm" lifters to achieve that.

Bob Handren                         OCA# 7728
'67 W-30 Modified                  '70 SX Convertible
Handren Associates, Inc.       Oviedo, FL

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 23:10:53 -0300
Subject: Re: '66 442 found; Please don't reply to me -Reply 

In a message dated 96-07-25 16:56:28 EDT, you write:

<< > Copied from 'Old Cars Weekly' july 18:
 >
 > 66 442, 3x2's, 400ci, 3.90:1 posi, must sell.. $2000 obo
 > (201) 473-1137
 
 Damn!  Why doesn't anything like that show up around here?  Were all
 the Oldsmobiles ever made sold in the Eastern US?  It seems like
 everyone on this list lives back east.  I think I live in hell (grrr).
 
 -BS >>
 Nope, they weren't all sold up North.  There's a very similar car down here
in FL, alledgedly garaged since '81.  Pretty original, etc.  It's one of
those situations where the guy says maybe he wants to sell it.  Or maybe he
wants to add disc brakes :-( or maybe he won't sell it after all,  You know,
a real decisive guy.  Of course, he says he isn't sure what it is worth so he
doesn't know what he wants for it.  Assuming he does sell it.  Geeesh!

Just have to keep calling every couple of months or so.   

Wear him down.  

I like the $2,000 post tho - 

yeah, that's it, offer him $1500 and settle reluctantly for $1900.

I think I'll call him tomorrow armed with this market value setting
information. ;-)

(I can dream too, can't I?)

BTW, the car is real, so is the description of the owner. 

Bob Handren                         OCA# 7728
'67 W-30 Modified                  '70 SX Convertible
Handren Associates, Inc.       Oviedo, FL

------------------------------

From: "Jason P. Labay" <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 23:22:51 -0300
Subject: Re: rotators

Rotators serve to rotate the valve to make wear more uniform. The rotator
consists of 4 to 6 parts. There is the body, inside the body lies a spring,
on top of that is a washer and on top of that is a collar that is crimped on
the edge to hold the assembly in place. Some have oil shield caps on the top
made out of plastic. Chevy used them on most of their engines until
recently, Olds only uses them on the Quad 4 now. Nearly every diesel has
them. Most car makers now use a single machine stamped body shaped like a
rotator that acts the same way as the previous 4-6 part design.  How do I
know this? I work for the TRW Valve Division at the Rotator Assembly Plant.
All I make every day is rotators. 

At 10:23 PM 7/25/96 -0300, Dave Paulison wrote:
>How do rotators work??  What is gained/lost by using them?  Are they only
>used on BB heads, or can they be used on SB heads?
>--
>Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
>dpauliso@metrolink.net
>
>
>
>

Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com)
1988 Camaro IROC-Z/28 5.0 bowtie power  
1975 Hurst/Olds W-25 5.7 rocket power     
HOCA member #0278A...in need of 75 H/O and 442 parts!

------------------------------

From: "Jason P. Labay" <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 23:25:42 -0300
Subject: RE: rotators

At 10:41 PM 7/25/96 -0300, Chris Urban wrote:
>Best thing is throw them away, they are extra valve train weight.
>
True, but the valve wear becomes more uneven. The new one piece caps work
just as well with less weight. The only real need for rotators today is in
diesel, heavy equipment engines, compressors, generators....

Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com)
1988 Camaro IROC-Z/28 5.0 bowtie power  
1975 Hurst/Olds W-25 5.7 rocket power     
HOCA member #0278A...in need of 75 H/O and 442 parts!

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 23:32:24 -0300
Subject: Re: '66 442 found; Please don't reply to me -Reply 

In a message dated 96-07-25 21:58:43 EDT, you write:

<< I am pretty sure this is the phone number of Ed Fochi (sp).  Don't be too 
 disapponted - If he's selling it, it's worth about $500...
 
 He goes around buying up these cars and usually strips them down and 
 sells the parts...  (not only 442's/Cutlasses, but GTO's & Buicks - 
 mostly GM stuff, usually advertises in Hemmings)
 
 (Everyone I have talked to who has dealt with Ed has been, ohhh how 
 should I say this... "less than pleased".  In fact, I am pretty sure they 
 won't let him advertise in JWO due to complaints.)
 
 -Rod >>


Rod, I agree with enerything you said from the phone number to the value
received.

Bob Handren                         OCA# 7728
'67 W-30 Modified                  '70 SX Convertible
Handren Associates, Inc.       Oviedo, FL

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 23:32:11 -0300
Subject: Re: rotators 

In a message dated 96-07-25 21:33:12 EDT, you write:

<< How do rotators work??  What is gained/lost by using them?  Are they only
 used on BB heads, or can they be used on SB heads?
 --
 Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
 dpauliso@metrolink.net
  >>


Hi Dave:

Rotators are used to continuously change the valve/valve seat relationship.
 They came about as the lead was removed from fuels.  These plus hardened
seats extend valve life.  Rotators were, and still are, used in truck and
other HD applications. Nothing unusual about there eventual use in passenger
cars.

They weigh a bunch more than non-rotator retainers so are usually removed for
hi-revving drag engines.  Removal also allows the use of longer springs or a
spacer is required to install the stock springs correctly.

Bob Handren                         OCA# 7728
'67 W-30 Modified                  '70 SX Convertible
Handren Associates, Inc.       Oviedo, FL

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 18:52:28 -0300
Subject: Re: Wanted: Fender

> 
> >Hi there, I saw your post about fenders.  Do you have a right front fender for a 69
> 442 convertible?
> 
> Also, does it look like you will be able to bring the black 69 dash with
> you to Atlanta?
> 
> Let me know,
> 
> Ed
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Interested in Satellite TV, Home Theatre, Muscle Cars, Recording Studios,
> or Computers? Me Too !
> Check out my Web Page "http://www.mindspring.com/~rhubarb"


I enjoyed the web page.  Sorry I missed the muscle cars.  Let us know 
when they will be returning.

Is there any difference between 4 door & 2 door fenders?  I might be 
able to find a fender.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 02:07:14 -0300
Subject: Re: Tilt Front End 

At 10:14 AM 7/24/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Several weeks ago someone had mentioned that they knew of a company who
>makes a tilt front end for a Cutlass. I am interested in finding out what
>they cost as a '70 Cutlass convertible I am looking at needs a new front
>clip anyway.

That was me; the place is:

Autobody Specialties Inc.
Route 66- P.O. Box 455
Middlefield, CT 06455

(860) 346-4989

They don't have them in stock, but order them from a company. They seem to
be designed for the street, with the flanges/reinforcements/etc. to mount
grilles, lights, etc. They also include a tilt hinge kit. 

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
- - 1978 Electra Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 02:07:30 -0300
Subject: Re: Another busy weekend under the Toros 

At 11:52 PM 7/22/96 -0400, you wrote:
[snip]
>Now to the fun stuff!!!!  I took heed to everyones input and went with the
>RWL tires. Check this out fellas!!. I put on P255 70's General XP 2000's.
>Yes, thats P255!!!!!  BOY ARE THOSE SOME MEATS!!!  I was a bit sceptical when
[snip]
>Now for the test ride.   WOW! Does that sucker handle, track, and ride nice!
>Almost nostalgic NASCAR like in appearance and roadability
>
>I'm a happy camper. I took a few pics and will scan and send to those
>interested. 
>
>I would have to say that it gives the car a real different dimension. Now it
>really looks MEAN comming at ya in the rear view! IMHO, these would be the
>biggest tires 1st generation Toros can accept without reconfiguration of the
>suspention/wheel wells etc. Up till now, I have been conservative (almost
>purist) with my Toros, and indeed will continue be with the show car, but the
>Flamming Dubonette is turning out to be a real nice venue for radical
>departure. Next will be the deep wine, candy apple paint job and blower.
> LOL!
>
>All for now!
>
>Sparky

Well, I'm in the market for a set of tires right now too, and I like the
idea of bigger tires, but didn't know how large to go without widening the
stock wheels. I hadn't thought that you could find 255/70's, and never had
considered going to Sam's Club to do it.  I'm glad *you* did the experiment
for all of us!

So what did Sam's want for this set of tires? And how big are the letters on
these tires? Ideally, I'd get them in a narrow whitewall, and small white
letters like the old Wide-Oval tires would be a nice second choice.

I thought a blower with a pair of Predator carbs on top would look great on
an early Toro: induction a full 6" above the *roof* of the car!

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
- - 1978 Electra Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 02:07:38 -0300
Subject: Re: Weekend Project: Engine Rebuild Notes 

At 04:51 PM 7/23/96 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 96-07-23 09:30:14 EDT, you write:
>
><< My question is: Where did
> Mondello get that spec for adjusting the lifter preload? Maybe I'm just
> unable to understand what he means in his section on setting preload. Any
> insights into this? >>
>Bob:
>
>The adjustment for lifter pre-load is going to vary from setup to setup.
> Heads milled? Block decked? Cam moderate or high lift?  They all will cause
>a change in the overall length needed for pre-load.  The cam changes things

Right, pushrod length. I was talking about his figure for clearance between
the rocker pivot and head, which would yield .030"-.050" of lifter preload.
Mondello says that this clearance "should be between .035" and .045" (tech
guide, p.17). In fact, however, .028" of clearance turned out to yield .040"
of preload, so I went for between .024" and .035" of clearance at the pivot
to get between .030" and .050" of lifter preload. Had I went with Mondello's
figure of .035" and .045" of clearance, I'd be getting between .050" and
~.080" of preload! I figured this out when I set the first valve to
Mondello's spec, and noticed that the lifter plunger looked pretty far down;
got out the dial gauge, and sure'nuff, I had *lots* of preload.

I know that this figure for the clearance at the rocker pivot will vary for
different geometry settings, but the +.100" pushrods put that point of the
geometry right back to stock, so it was only the valve stems that were
located different from stock, and not by much.

[snip]
>A method of cutting an old pushrod in two pieces, tapping the pieces for ~1/4
>threaded stock and using jam nuts has been described here for measuring the
>length needed in a particular application.  How did you determine the length
>you needed?

Well, the cam had a reduced base-circle of .100", so a set of +.100"
pushrods put me right back in the ballpark; a set of shims made up for the
valve job/surfaced heads. The most shim I had to add was .040"; they come in
two thicknesses: .020" and .035".

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
- - 1978 Electra Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 02:07:26 -0300
Subject: Re: 455 vs 425 

At 02:17 PM 7/22/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Just how long is the stroke of a 425 crank?  To go from 403ci to 490ci, 
>seems like it must be a lot (or is the 403 crank extremely short?).  And

It is extremely short for 403ci: 3.385", same as all other Small-Block Olds
motors.

>the 455 stroke is even longer?
>
>OK, I just searched through the FAQ.  425 has a bore of 4.125" and stroke
>of 3.975", but that's all I could find.  What's the bore/stroke for a:
>
>307?
3.80"x3.385"

>350?
4.057"x3.385"

>403?
4.385"x3.385"

>400?
4.00"x3.975"('65-'67)
3.87"x4.25"('68-'69)

>455?
4.126"x4.25"

and the lowly 260 kept the 3.385" stroke crank, but achieved its diminutive
size by having a 3.5" bore. Oh, and the 330 had a 3.9385" bore.

>Can you switch cranks between small blocks as well?  Could you actually
>cut a 425 (or any BB) crank down to fit a SB?  Isn't the 425 based on 

The bore centers are the same, since the only differences between the
small-block and big-block Olds blocks are the deck height (9.33" and
10.625", respectively) and the main journal size (2.5" and 3.0"; diesel 350
used BB size mains, however). 

Theoretically, you could also destroke a big-block with a diesel crank; with
the later 400 block, you'd get a 319ci big-block. But why bother?

>the older 39 degree block while a 403 block would be 45 degrees?  (In
>case you haven't noticed, I *like* the idea of a 490ci SB.)  ;-)

That is the angle between the lifters, not the cylinders; there were
different cam-bank angles (and lifter sizes as well; Chris Witt has
memorized all these...;). All Olds V-8's are 90 degree V-8's.

I like the idea of a big small-block; now I just gotta find me a solid-web
403 and a machinist/mad scientist willing to work with me on this one.

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
- - 1978 Electra Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 02:07:33 -0300
Subject: Re: Gear ratios 

At 06:34 PM 7/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>James Thingwold wrote:
>> 
>> Does anyone have the rear gear ratios generally put in the Vista Cuiser's in
>> '72?  It's a 10 bolt behind the 180 HP 350 & the Turbo-400.

Mine had a 3.08 non-posi. As someone else mentioned, there is a code stamped
on the axle tube; mine was almost unreadable (SM for 3.08 non-posi, SN for
3.08 posi)

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
- - 1978 Electra Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 02:07:22 -0300
Subject: RE: 490 cid small block 

>Does anyone know the specifics of the "cut down 425 crank" conversion?  
>How do they balance the assembly afterwards, do they go to an internal 
>balance setup?  All info I've seen doesn't add up to a "drop-in 
>conversion" what with the Chevy rods you need, custom pistons, and custom 
>just about everything else.  Also, 490cid?  How is this figure derived?  
>Supposedly, you'd need to fill the block to go 454cid...

Those are for 350 Diesel blocks, with the 3.00" mains. I'm talking about
cutting down the main journals to the 2.50" SBO main size.

I don't even know if this is possible, but as a 403 fanatic, it came to mind
when I heard of the 425->350 Diesel conversion. Physically, the only thing
different between the SBO and BBO bottom ends are the main bores; pan rails,
cam location, etc. is identical, so what fits in a BBO motor *should* fit in
a SBO.

Since the 403's 4.385" bore is the biggest cylinder Olds produced (all SBO's
have the 3.39" crank), adding a 425 crank would produce an amazing
displacement. The results are even more incredible if you offset-grind the
crank when cutting the rod journals down from the 2.625" BBO size to the
2.250" SBO size:
                        
                        Stroke
            3.975"      4.163"      4.350"
Bore
4.351"      472ci       495ci       517ci
4.381"      479ci       502ci       525ci
4.391"      482ci       504ci       527ci

Keeping the stock stroke with a SBO rod at 6" puts the piston pin center at
1.3425" below deck height, which means the pin will have to be raised about
1/4" above factory specs. The offset-ground strokes (4.35" is max, 4.163" is
midway) would require a shorter rod; not really a problem, with all those
5.7" SBCh*vy rods being made out there. Of course, if you could offset-grind
and stuff a 455 crank into a max-bored 403 block, you'd have a 590ci
small-block... (hmmm, that might be worth it, just for the fun of it...)

At 09:13 PM 7/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Hey thats an interesting idea, what sort of rod length would you be looking
at? I've thought about a lot of odd ball combinations over the years  and
usually the end up being very expensive once you plan the entire build out.
This is one I've not considered and must give some thought.

The pistons, of course, would have to be custom, unless some of the
raised-pin F*rd 429/460 flat-top pistons produced for racing applications
would work (they are the only motor whose bore is bigger than the 403's)

Grinding the crank would have to be done by someone who knew what they were
doing; cutting all the journals, redrilling the oil holes, cutting the
counterweights, balancing, etc.

And, of course, this would all hinge upon finding a solid-main web 403 block
to begin with...

Heck, it might be easier to just start out with a billet block and crank!

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
- - 1978 Electra Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 02:07:41 -0300
Subject: Power Servo keeps me un-Comfortron... 

Well, folks, it looks like my '69 Toronado's Comfortron is dead because of
my Power Servo, which won't feed any voltage to my fan (main switch and
range relay seem to be happy campers). Has anyone successfully repaired one
of these babies? Or have a functioning one they could sell me? Quick? I
could also use the 4-prong factory connector to the Power Servo

On a related note, does anyone have a more detailed schematic for the wiring
on the '69 Toro Comfortron? The diagrams in the '69 Shop Manual don't label
the wire colors, or show details on the connectors for the Toro (though they
do for the B/C bodied systems). 

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
- - 1978 Electra Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: Michael Brady <drolds19@mail.idt.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 04:41:07 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds meets

Dan Williams wrote:
> 
> Anybody here ever go, or are going to go to the Quad States show at the
> Wisconsin Dells?  I'm thinking of going, but would like to know if it is
> worth the trip.  Also, any shows in the Chicago area?  I'm only 3.5
> hours from there.
> 
> -Dan Hello dan, i go to the quad state event every year and yes it's worth
 the trip, a bunch of illinois valley chapter members will be meeting in 
 rockford, il. and heading north into cheese land, we should have about
 ten cars caravaning up there. The show has an average of 150 of lansings
 finest and a nice swap also,let me know if you would like to hook up!!

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 03:56:45 -0300
Subject: Re: Qjet well plug paranoia 

In a message dated 96-07-25 17:33:16 EDT, ndg@traverse.com (Nielsen Design
Group) writes:

<< What do y'all think about just epoxying the well plugs as a Lifetime Fix?
>>


Darren,

Not sure about lifetime! Temporary 'at best' would be my term. 

Sparky

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 03:57:24 -0300
Subject: Re: Leaky Well Plugs in Qjet? 

In a message dated 96-07-25 18:05:42 EDT, suntzu@ohana.com (Paul R. K.
Kuromoto) writes:

<< I tried the JB Weld fix on my Qjet and it works just fine.  Starts up on 
 the first crank in the morning and all.
  >>

Paul,

I'm interested to know how long its been, how many miles, what conditions,
youv'e driven the car, since the epoxy fix?

Sparky

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 03:58:58 -0300
Subject: Re: Leaky Well Plugs in Qjet? 

In a message dated 96-07-25 19:06:46 EDT, edison3@cpeq.com (Mike Frederick)
writes:

<< Did you ever try that Marine-Tex on the Qjet that we talked about?
  >>


Nope, not yet. But, I will look for it soon!  (:

Sparky

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 03:58:02 -0300
Subject: Re: Leaky Well Plugs in Qjet? 

In a message dated 96-07-25 18:05:42 EDT, suntzu@ohana.com (Paul R. K.
Kuromoto) writes:

<< I tried the JB Weld fix on my Qjet and it works just fine.  Starts up on 
 the first crank in the morning and all.
  >>

Paul,

I'm interested to know how long its been, how many miles, what conditions,
youv'e driven the car, since the epoxy fix?

Sparky

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 03:59:17 -0300
Subject: Re: Power Servo keeps me un-Comfortron... 

In a message dated 96-07-26 01:12:41 EDT, rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU
(Robert J. Barry) writes:

<< On a related note, does anyone have a more detailed schematic for the
wiring
 on the '69 Toro Comfortron? The diagrams in the '69 Shop Manual don't label
 the wire colors, or show details on the connectors for the Toro (though they
 do for the B/C bodied systems). 
  >>

Bob,

Send me youre new address...I think I can do ya!

Sparky

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 04:01:07 -0300
Subject: RE: 490 cid small block

I think you'd also run into strength problems with the crankshaft, 
especially around the rod journals.  Notice an angled hole is drilled 2/3 
to 3/4 the way across the journal...Grinding the journal excessively, and 
especioally offset-grinding it, might cause strength problems...?

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
 revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
 information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
 Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
 been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 04:18:29 -0300
Subject: Re: Another busy weekend under the Toros 

In a message dated 96-07-26 01:13:23 EDT, rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU
(Robert J. Barry) writes:

<< Well, I'm in the market for a set of tires right now too, and I like the
 idea of bigger tires, but didn't know how large to go without widening the
 stock wheels. I hadn't thought that you could find 255/70's, and never had
 considered going to Sam's Club to do it.  I'm glad *you* did the experiment
 for all of us!
 
 So what did Sam's want for this set of tires? And how big are the letters on
 these tires? Ideally, I'd get them in a narrow whitewall, and small white
 letters like the old Wide-Oval tires would be a nice second choice.
  >>
Dr. Bob,

IMHO  P255 70's are about the limit...Sams also had the whaite walls in the
same size. Not wide, but not thin either.   I shelled out 64 bucks a skin
(mounting and balancing were included......but I declined and went to someone
I could really trust with the proper machine and not bend my good wheels.

BTW....you can still get those Wide Ovals yet if you really want!!!!!!   Look
in Hemmings by the tire section.....they still make tham all I believe!!!!!!

Later,

Sparky

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 05:19:35 -0300
Subject: Re: Leaky Well Plugs in Qjet? 

In a message dated 96-07-26 03:09:49 EDT, suntzu@ohana.com (Paul R. K.
Kuromoto) writes:

<< I don't expect to have problems with it, as it seems to 
 bond especially well to the material the carb is cast out of.
  >>


Paul,

I agree with the bonding properties of epoxy without question indeed!  My
problem is one of environment. Gasoline is one of the best solvents known to
man. Add that to a hot/cold situation, and over time..(rather short.....say
6-10 months) the epoxy falls apart. I have seen it countless times.  

Now, I think we should focus on conditions here. Yes, epoxy may work under
certain applications...say, pleasure cars driven only in summer and/or to car
shows. However, I contend that for a daily driver (in my case) in the midwest
where the car is at 20 below zero (don't laugh..it happened here for 15 days
last winter here in Milwaukee) and get to operating temperature  (say
180)...were are talking about a MAJOR temperature swing here! VERY few man
made materials can withstand that sort of repeated punishment without
breakdown, especially in a solvent! I won't even get into the coefficient of
linear expansion differences between the copper (well plugs) and pot metal
(carb casting) interfacing BETWEEN the epoxy seal. Which, by the way, may be
a more substantial factor here than gasoline itself.

I suppose there are those who think, well.........I can just re-epoxy the
plugs every year or so and get on with life. It's no big deal! However, I
wouldn't want to be driving the car when they let go (fall out) and empty the
bowl right down the mainfold when you are at speed. I believe that many
engine fires have misdiagnosed and that these well plug failures have been
overlooked as a cause. Especially in Toronaodos!  I don't mean to scare
everyone here. To be sure, I am only looking out for all of us who have this
potential problem. I just prefer not to go out in a ball of fire,  (although
I came close a few weeks ago for another reason) and I would assume you
wouldn't either. This is not an Oliver Stone scenario!

Epoxy is good stuff, but it is no panasea...especially in this application.
However, not to be a total bonehead about this, I agree that there are few
alternative fixes. If there were, we would know about it by now. Perhaps this
disscussion will spur the minds of the readers to spend a few hours on the
bench and really come up with a permanent solution to this temporary fix we
are all relegated to use. You subscribers with machinist and metalurgy
backgrounds, take a stab at it! You could even make a few bucks off of this!
 (: 

Gregory G. Kalkhoff  (aka Sparky)

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 07:09:56 -0300
Subject: Re: Leaky Well Plugs in Qjet?

At 05:19 AM 7/26/96 -0300, you wrote:
. I believe that many
>engine fires have misdiagnosed and that these well plug failures have been
>overlooked as a cause. Especially in Toronaodos!  I don't mean to scare
>everyone here. 
>Gregory G. Kalkhoff  (aka Sparky)
>
Some of you may know this, some may not... 

To put out a fire in the carb, get in the car, mash the gas pedal to the
floor and hold it there, and crank the engine.  The fire will get sucked
down inside the engine (combustion chambers), where it can do no harm and
will go away!  

Interesting/amusing story to go along with this:  I was leaving the local
Auto Zone one day, and out in the parking lot was a man running frantically
around his car (with the hood up), screaming for some water.  There was a
small carb fire, and a few people were standing there watching him.  I ran
over to his car, did exactly as described above, and VOILA, no more fire.
Didn't even get a thank you from the guy!  
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 11:53:14 -0300
Subject: Re: Another busy weekend under the Toros

Robert J. Barry wrote:
> 
> > SPARKY:  I put on P255 70's General XP 2000's.

> Well, I'm in the market for a set of tires right now too, and I like 
> the idea of bigger tires, but didn't know how large to go without 
> widening the stock wheels. I hadn't thought that you could find 
> 255/70's, and never had considered going to Sam's Club to do it.

Put them on mine a year or two ago.  No clearance problems but they 
ARE snug.  Didn't have any trouble finding them, I think I got these from 
Don Olson and I think Tire Kingdom usually carries them.

> I thought a blower with a pair of Predator carbs on top would look 
> great on an early Toro: induction a full 6" above the *roof* of the 
> car!

HA-HA!  What color flames, you maniac?

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Richard Bonazzoli <bonazzoli@5onflr.ENET.dec.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 09:24:28 -0300
Subject: RE: Rhodes Lifters: Yeah or Nay? 

My brother has the Crane Hi-Intensity lifters in his Buick.
They work well, are quiet, and have allowed him to run a large
cam in his car without serious drivability problems.  Since I 
have not used Rhoads I cannot comment on which is better.

Rich

------------------------------

From: JJF97@uno.cc.geneseo.edu
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:14:48 -0300
Subject: Resto  Tips  .....

Before I post today's tip I would like to say thank you to Mike with the 
cadium plated parts that keep better when they are waxed; and also Andrew
with Vaseline on battery cables.  I honestly did not know this information,
and thank you for it.

My name is joe ferrero.  I'm 22 years old, and so far have restored 2 and 1/2
cars ( 1 and 1/2 being oldsmobiles).  Most tips I post I learned in my
experience of restoring these cars.

If anyone has tips that they would like to share, PLEASE post it with the
subject of resto tips, it helps out the new guy.

Oh, and Mike Frederick, I am flattered by your last e-mail message to me;
Thank you.

Now for the tip you've been waiting for......







Whether for show or go, you wouldn't want embarassing batery cables.  If
they are shabby, replace them.  An easy way to score a few extra points at a
show (or at least not have some deducted) is to use correct battery cables and
ends, which are, more often than not, one piece.

It will only cost a few bucks more to have correct pieces, rather than cheapy
65-cent universal bolt-on cable ends.  The few bucks difference is worth it.



- --Resto Corner

(joe ferrero)

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #247
********************************

