
oldsmobile-digest          Thursday, 11 July 1996       Volume 01 : Number 233


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:53:31 -0300
Subject: Re: SICK'EM BOYS! 

>>Chris Brown Witt wrote:
>>> 
>>> > Hey speaking of toro's, I've often wondered why they never reached a
>>> > higher level of collectability? After all they were the " flag ship" 
>>> > of the olds line, and i believe way ahead of there time.
>>> 
>>> Well, a lot of folks are more interested in performance, ya know... 
>>> [uh-oh, *dons asbestos underwear*]
>>> 
>>> > really grown on me over the years and it woulndn't surprise me if 
>>> > some day one of these will sit next to one of my 4-4-2s.
>>> 
>>> Grown on you, like a.. oh never mind, I think the water's hot enough 
>>> already!
>>> 
>>> That VIRUS! It spreads & spreads! If only I had a -CARB- on the red 
>>> one, I could still drive it around the fields, too!
>>>
>>> Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
>>> wittchri@pilot.msu.edu
>
>Watch it, Witt - we've been monitoring you over here on the Toro mini list.
>Before you know it, you'll have a fleet of 5000 lb fwd monsters bearing-down
>on you!!! :)
>

Ran across a '66 in a local salvage lot here the other day.  The best way I
can describe these things is a "different" form of cool.  That interior is
pretty wild!  Didn't get a chance to ask about it, tho.  Probably for the
best, I'd imagine it would be sitting next to the '77 Toro!  Didn't get to
pop the hood, either.  Soon...  I guess I should get the Rockit running first!
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 455
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:53:34 -0300
Subject: Re: Other lists... 

>Does anybody know where I can get a list of other mailing lists?  My
>brother, an Olds fan at heart, needs to find a list dealing with AMC's --
>Gremlins in particular.  If anyone could point me in the right direction, my
>brother would sure appreciate it.

     Would that be one of those 12 step programs!?
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 455
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: "Jeffrey S. Perkins" <"sperk@penn.com"@penn.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:00:45 -0300
Subject: 1975 Oldsmobile Vista Cruiser

I would like to know the availability of parts for a 1975 olds station 
wagon (vista cruiser) so far oldsmobile cannot find parts ...J.C. Whitney 
has no parts parts stores have no parts ..II'm beginning to feel like I 
have the only one. I need an electric seat control...body emblems,chrome 
around tirewells,window-rubber,etc. can anyone help?? I really like olds 
and would like to complete my restoration but I cannot find another car 
like mine...I've been lookin' for 4 years.                               
                                           Thanx, J.S. Perkins		
						sperk@penn.com

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:06:15 -0300
Subject: Signing Off

It is with a heavy heart that I must announce my leaving of this list. With my
work heating up, my 8.5 mo old kid getting up every 1.5 hrs at night, and my
boss going on vacation for at least 2 mo, I cannot keep up with everything that
is going on. As one of the first members of this list I am extremely proud to 
have gotten in on the ground floor of something that I believe was long, long
overdue. Will stay subscribed for at least the rest of the day. If anyone needs
me, please do not hesitate to e-mail me directly.

I know its not nettiquetly (just made that up) correct but I am going to sign
off with my original sig file (Sorry Chris! here is the billboard one last time)


          ___              ___        _________
         /   |            /   |      /         \
        /    |           /    |     |   ___    |
       /     |          /     |     |__|   |   |
      /      |         /      |           /   /   
     /       |        /       |          /   /   
    /   /|   |       /   /|   |         /   /
   /   /_|   |__    /   /_|   |__      /   /
  |             |  |             |    /   /
  |______     __|  |______     __|   /   /_____
         |   |            |   |     |          |      Pat Clark
         |___|            |___|     |__________|       69 442
						      400/400

   "Just your average 300+hp garage hogging, gas sucking, money pit"

------------------------------

From: Fernando Proietto <proietto@dow.on.doe.ca>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:22:03 -0300
Subject: Re: Need parts identified...

To find out what engine the intake belongs to, just measure the width. The 350 intakes are 
smaller than the 455's. Can someone measure there 455's and post it, to help this guy out.
- -- 
Regards
Fernando Proietto

------------------------------

From: Dave Isho <davei-2@mail.idt.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:29:51 -0300
Subject: Re: Alternator Upgrade Q 

At 07:03 PM 7/9/96 -0300, you wrote:
>Hi everyone.
>
>  Can anyone tell me the correct way to wire an internally regulated
>alternator in place of the external type on my 71 CS convertible (daily
driver)?.

I used a part from Year One to adapt the harness to the new alt. MAD
Enterprises also carries a kit for this


<<--------------------------------->>
 >Dave Isho --- davei-2@mail.idt.net
     >67 Cutlass CS Convertible           

------------------------------

From: Dave Isho <davei-2@mail.idt.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:38:21 -0300
Subject: Re: 66 98 Stumpers 

>>Today's Hint: Didja know that those big 1 gallon jugs of Pine Sol you buy 
>>at price club make great carb cleaner? Pour full strength into a 
>>bucket, drop in carb pieces and in a day or so, they'll scrub clean easily.
>>I think this is cheaper and better for the environment than solvent.
>
>I've used that cleaner for soaking paint off of old trim and hardware
>around the house (e.g. door hinges, doorknobs, fancy switchplates) when
>repainting -- just remove and toss into a coffee can for a day --
>amazing stuff.

Also works great for getting your car-working clothes clean, especially
after doing engine and trans swaps and getting every ounce of fluids on your
clothes.

<<----->>

July 10, 1996
8:36 am

<<--------------------------------->>
 >Dave Isho --- davei-2@mail.idt.net
     >67 Cutlass CS Convertible           

------------------------------

From: Dave Isho <davei-2@mail.idt.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:40:36 -0300
Subject: Re: 67 diff. 

>
>Nope, can't swap gears.  The 10 bolt cover rear is a "B" or "P" rear, the 12
>bolt cover with 10 bolt gears is a type "O".  The "B" and "P" gears will
>interchange but not the "O".  Why not just swap the complete "O" rear into
>the '67?  Even if the ring gears would swap, how would you set them up
>(pinion depth, back lash, bearing loads...)?
>
>Bob Handren
>
 thanks Bob, I wanted to keep the limited slip, however I guess I'll live
with the 12 bolt till I can find a replacement with some deeper gears.

<<--------------------------------->>
 >Dave Isho --- davei-2@mail.idt.net
     >67 Cutlass CS Convertible           

------------------------------

From: Fernando Proietto <proietto@dow.on.doe.ca>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 18:54:59 -0300
Subject: Re: Mailer Stupidity

Thanks Greg, 
	your doing a very fine job. Thanks again for being there...

Regards
Fernando Proietto

------------------------------

From: "Shokouhi, Mike" <shokouhm@nasd.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:24:58 -0300
Subject: Underside color for H/O?

Hello,

Could anyone tell me the "correct" color (code) for the black that the
underside of a '69 H/O should be, and if it's different than the
firewall black (GM recondition black?).

Continuing on the correct color idea:  I was reading a current resto.
mag. (forget exact name) and it said that for a late '60s A-body the
suspension parts should be 60 black, while "The Guide.." by Shaw states
natural for most.
I apologize for not having the correct names of publications, I'm
currently overseas and far from my 'Library'.

Thnx for any and all help,

Mikee 

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:35:12 -0300
Subject: Re: Signing Off

Pat Clark 952-3776 wrote:
> 
> It is with a heavy heart that I must announce my leaving of this list. 

I hope this is just a temporary leave of absence.  We'll look forward to 
hearing from you again when things improve.  (Hopefully before the kid 
hits the terrible twos!)

The 66 Toro and Mike



- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:29:49 -0300
Subject: Re: Rear speaker.. 

Buddha wrote:
> 
> speaking of WAY too much power in a sound system...when i was in 
> college there was an 88 Jeep Cherokee...the guy had sooo much bass in 
> it and it was so loud that it had sparated most of the welds in the 
> body...ahe had had them welded about 3 times...poor guy spent about 
> $3000 on his system...way too much

Ha!  Wait 'til he finds out his hearing's gone at 40.

Thump-thump.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:55:39 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals 

>>Need Another Olds Cutlass, of course. Jeez, do I have to explain 
>>_everything_ around here?  :-)
>
>Oh, the NAOC board of directors will love this.  I can hardly wait to tell
>one them and watch their eyeballs roll up into head!

"Smithers, make a note: When Andrew Green's application arrives, burn it."

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:37:39 -0300
Subject: RE: Goofy EMail

This is bogus, I have a pantload of mail without this, am I missing anything if I just delete them all?

- ----------
From: 	Mike Frederick[SMTP:edison3@cpeq.com]
Sent: 	Tuesday, July 09, 1996 9:27 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Goofy EMail

Anybody else getting goofy routing on their messages?

> InBox Message Type: Error
> InBox Message Subject: Undeliverable message
> InBox Message Text Follows:
> Message not delivered to 'Bev Facey Message Centre' (No routing path
> found to Message Center)

What the hell is this?

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:38:58 -0300
Subject: RE: Other lists...

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6E32.DBF04F40
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Is your brothers name pee-wee herman? Sorry, couldn't resist... :)

- ----------
From: 	Blaine Sanders 5483[SMTP:BLAINES@strata3d.com]
Sent: 	Tuesday, July 09, 1996 6:29 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Other lists...

Does anybody know where I can get a list of other mailing lists?  My
brother, an Olds fan at heart, needs to find a list dealing with AMC's --
Gremlins in particular.  If anyone could point me in the right direction, my
brother would sure appreciate it.

(I personally think Gremlin's are one of the *ugliest* cars ever made, but
he sees something in it...)

Thanks!

- -BS




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------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:08:38 -0300
Subject: Re: Signing Off 

Pat,
How about the digest form of the list?

David Brown          OCA #27978         (312) 702-9157
               Check out: www.442.com
Send Olds FAQ request to: dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu

------------------------------

From: Dave Isho <davei-2@mail.idt.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:23:51 -0300
Subject: RE: Goofy EMail 

At 08:37 AM 7/10/96 -0300, you wrote:
>This is bogus, I have a pantload of mail without this, am I missing
anything if I just delete them all?

They just seem to be old messages...if you've be subscribed for a while,
you've probably already received them.

<<------------->>

July 10, 1996
10:21 am

<<--------------------------------->>
 >Dave Isho --- davei-2@mail.idt.net
     >67 Cutlass CS Convertible           

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:20:06 -0300
Subject: Re: Signing Off

WARNING -- NON-OLDS TEXT TO FOLLOW:

> From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>

> Pat Clark 952-3776 wrote:
> > 
> > It is with a heavy heart that I must announce my leaving of this list. 
> 
> I hope this is just a temporary leave of absence.  We'll look forward to 
> hearing from you again when things improve.

A hearty hear-hear from me on this Pat;  y'all come back soon, y'hear?


>  (Hopefully before the kid hits the terrible twos!)
> 
> The 66 Toro and Mike

I dunno... I think the "twos" are only "terrible" if'n you think they're
gonna be... :)



Tim (Father of Michael & Helen, two year old TWINS) Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'88 Cadillac Brougham, a.k.a. 'Big Blue' -- Olds 307 Powered!!
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:22:11 -0300
Subject: Re: Rear speaker..

> From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>

> Buddha wrote:
> > 
> > speaking of WAY too much power in a sound system...when i was in 
> > college there was an 88 Jeep Cherokee...the guy had sooo much bass in 
> > it and it was so loud that it had sparated most of the welds in the 
> > body...ahe had had them welded about 3 times...poor guy spent about 
> > $3000 on his system...way too much
> 
> Ha!  Wait 'til he finds out his hearing's gone at 40.
> 
> Thump-thump.
> 

Eh?  What's that, sonny?  My bearing's gone on my Sporty?? :)



Tim (been to way too many concerts and 40's only 3.5 years away) Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'88 Cadillac Brougham, a.k.a. 'Big Blue' -- Olds 307 Powered!!
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:33:22 -0300
Subject: Re: Goofy EMail

Joanne Beausoleil wrote:
> 
> This is bogus, I have a pantload of mail without this, am I missing 
> anything if I just delete them all?

Burn 'em

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:36:44 -0300
Subject: Gremlins (WAS RE: Other lists...)

> From: 	Blaine Sanders 5483[SMTP:BLAINES@strata3d.com]

> (I personally think Gremlin's are one of the *ugliest* cars ever made, but
> he sees something in it...)
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -BS

I agree with you on their frugliness, Blaine, but that is just my personal
and subjective taste; However, I did have a friend in HS who had one with
a built-up 304, which made it a bit impressive... I remember he could
pop wheelies at will, one memorable time in particular, in heavy traffic
leaving the Cape Cod Coliseum (RIP) after a Kinks concert...



Tim Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'88 Cadillac Brougham, a.k.a. 'Big Blue' -- Olds 307 Powered!!
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:41:53 -0300
Subject: Re: Signing Off

Timothy A. Churchill wrote:
> 
> Tim (Father of Michael & Helen, two year old TWINS) Churchill

OUCH!

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:46:27 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals

Just a reminder:  the NAOC only recognizes Oldsmobiles up through the 
1964 model year.  If you show up in your '69 442, it won't be allowed on 
the show field.  (But I'm sure you'll be allowed to park it over with the 
other spectators' cars!)

Actually, I believe that when the NAOC started, they recognized only up 
through 1958 or 60 or something like that, and the year has crept up a 
bit over the years.  But I don't think they'll go higher than '64 for 
quite some time.  The club was started, after all, by people who couldn't 
stand seeing nothing but '68-72 Cutlasses and 442s at every Olds meet.  :)

Personally, I think that they ought to raise it every year so that the 
most recent year recognized is 25 years old.  Thus, each year they could 
recognize a new model year and celebrate its officially becoming an 
"antique" and welcoming it into the club.



Dan Gulino

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:48:11 -0300
Subject: Re: Signing Off

> From oldsmobile-owner@ccn.cs.dal.ca Wed Jul 10 09:27 CDT 1996
> Date: 	Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:08:38 -0300
> From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
> To: oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
> Subject: Re: Signing Off
> 
> Pat,
> How about the digest form of the list?
> 
> David Brown          OCA #27978         (312) 702-9157
>                Check out: www.442.com
> Send Olds FAQ request to: dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu
> 
> 
> 
Trouble is that I only have access at work, so even if I had the digest form I
can't find the time to "digest" (Ha!) it all. I'll be back as soon as work dies
down. Still have the car, still have the olds bug (actually thought about 
selling the car because of lack of time and funds for it but my wife and next
door neighbor (bless their little black hearts) talked me out of it). Give me
a couple of months and I will be back (more than likely).

Gone after today,


 				Pat Clark
    				 69 442
    			        400/TH400
    			  clark@abu.dseg.ti.com

     The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:49:27 -0300
Subject: gears, etc.

> From: davei-2@mail.idt.net (Dave Isho)
> Subject: 67 diff.
> I have a 67 cutlass differential with a 10 bolt cover...it has 3.08 gears
> :-(  that are shot. This diff is a limited slip.
>
> I also have a diff that came out of a 67 cutlass (not the original rear nor
> a limited slip) this one has a 12 bolt cover but is not a 12 bolt rear it
> also has 3.08 gears. Is there any reason why I can't swap the gears and put
> them in the rear that has the limited slip? I assume that since the good
> diff. has a 10 bolt ring gear, it would fit. Any help would be appreciated
> as I'm planning on swapping them this weekend.
> >Dave Isho davei-2@mail.idt.net

Pretty sure those 2 are incompatible. The 12-bolt [cover] unit being stronger,
presumably a larger diameter gear. BTW, you cannot just "swap gears"... have
you checked out the procedure in the manual? You need a pinion depth setting
gage, and shims, and collapsible spacers, and... it's a rather involved
procedure, not at all like unbolting a bumper and installing a new one. Even IF
the gears would physically interchange.
  In short, no. Your best bet would be to either swap differentials as a whole,
or pay someone to fit new gears to the posi unit. -Chris-

> not sure on yours since the THM-350 uses a different crossmember than
> the THM-400). Wes Fujii

Huh? Diff. x-members for 350/400 trans?

> Been reading some of the postings re. trying to find parts numbers,
> etc... some of the confusion is due to the issue of CASTING numbers being
> mistaken for parts numbers. Even though you'd think they'd be the same,
> often they're not. I don't know if anyone - maybe our Mr. Witt, or Joe
> Mondello, or someone else - has a reliable list of casting numbers
> cross-referenced to part number, which is what it sounds like you need....
> Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

I have a large database of casting numbers. I have NO part numbers [well,
almost none] because what good are they? Unless you deal in NOS parts, which I
don't, a part number is useless. What *is* useful is a number that you can see,
stamped, cast, forged, embossed, whatever on the part, and then tell from that
what it's for; or, given the application, produce an ID number so one knows
what to look for. The elusive xst manifold for instance. -Chris-
> Any information as to how to obtain '71 taillight bezels?
> Darrell T. Weinman, M.D.

Take your tools out, late at night.... No, just kidding...
Swap meets, Year One?, Hemming's Motor News, Ron Memmer, Larry Camuso, see the
seb page for Vendors... -Chris-

> Also, does any one know of any solutions to fixing a cracked dash.

Buy another one? Send yours off to Just Dashes? -Chris-

> 6) The torque rods in the trunk don't lift the lid all the way anymore.

Those are adjustable. The body manual shows how, but a glance will show you how
to do it yourself. -Chris-
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: bryce_smith@442.com (Bryceman)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:00:42 -0300
Subject: Re: Car Craft www column 

>The recent issue of Car Craft has a www column featuring three sites.
>Suprise, suprise, the first is a Ch*vy (Nova) site.  The great thing is
>that in the Netscape 2.x frame on the left is "Bryceman's Olds Page, Olds
>Extravaganza"!  I would expect Bryce's page would be featured soon!

Cool Dave, thanks alot! Was that the August issue? Hows everything with you?


 EXCESSIVE IRON rules the road!
'65 442
'66 Dynamic 88 B07 Apprehender
 bryceman@442.com
 www.442.com

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 10:53:21 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals 

>Personally, I think that they ought to raise it every year so that the 
>most recent year recognized is 25 years old.  Thus, each year they could 
>recognize a new model year and celebrate its officially becoming an 
>"antique" and welcoming it into the club.

Right, and the current system (at least the current cutoff year of 1964)
doesn't strike me as making a whole lot of sense, if for no other reason
than that I don't believe 1964 was one of the big changeover years, was
it? Seems to me like that was an intermediate year in the typical GM
3-year (or perhaps 4-year) cycle.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Dave Isho <davei-2@mail.idt.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:16:15 -0300
Subject: Re: gears, etc. 

At 11:49 AM 7/10/96 -0300, you wrote:

>BTW, you cannot just "swap gears"... have
>you checked out the procedure in the manual? You need a pinion depth setting
>gage, and shims, and collapsible spacers, and... it's a rather involved
>procedure, not at all like unbolting a bumper and installing a new one. Even IF
>the gears would physically interchange.

I'm not a total dummy, just a partial one :-), Seriously through, I was
aware of the procedure for swapping gears, my cousin was coming over this
weekend to do the swap with me. I think we'll just check out my 10 bolt's
ring & pinion condition and setting and if there's no apparent reason for
the noise, I'll put in the 12 bolt non-limited-slip. 

BTW, Did you find out the info on the 330 motor, I haven't checked out the
casting numbers on the one I'm trashing, but if you still need the info,
I'll go check it out for you.

<<--------------------------------------------->>

July 10, 1996
11:13 am

 >Dave Isho --- davei-2@mail.idt.net
     >67 Cutlass CS Convertible
     

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:20:06 -0300
Subject: Re: Alternator Upgrade Q

Bob Valentine wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Jason Barnes wrote:
> 
> >   Can anyone tell me the correct way to wire an internally regulated
> > alternator in place of the external type on my 71 CS convertible (daily driver)?.
> > 
> 
> You missed what I posted a month or so ago.  Here goes again:
> 
> - - - - -
> 
> --> Robert Valentine
> --> Bob:

That is so nice that even I can understand it.  Have you written 
extensively for the mentally retarded?  I plan on changing most of my 
cars to electronic ignition in the future by putting in a kit within the 
correct distributor & will need this information.  Do you have any 
suggestions on these conversions (I want a stock look)?  What about odd 
cars such as Dodges or Studebakers?

- -- 
SLTG

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:46:42 -0300
Subject: Re: Goofy EMail

Joanne Beausoleil wrote:
> 
> This is bogus, I have a pantload of mail without this, am I missing anything if I just delete them all?
> 
> ----------
> From:   Mike Frederick[SMTP:edison3@cpeq.com]
> Sent:   Tuesday, July 09, 1996 9:27 PM
> To:     oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
> Subject:        Goofy EMail
> 
> Anybody else getting goofy routing on their messages?
> 
> > InBox Message Type: Error
> > InBox Message Subject: Undeliverable message
> > InBox Message Text Follows:
> > Message not delivered to 'Bev Facey Message Centre' (No routing path
> > found to Message Center)
> 
> What the hell is this?
> 
> The 66 Toro and Mike
> 
> --
>

Mike & Joanne:

I'd read them first.  I read all mine ;).  There might be something 
important.  One of them says that there is a test on Thursday.
- -- 
SLTG

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:52:00 -0300
Subject: Re: Signing Off

Pat Clark 952-3776 wrote:
> 
> It is with a heavy heart that I must announce my leaving of this list. 

 the billboard one last time)
> 
>           ___              ___        _________
>          /   |            /   |      /         \
>         /    |           /    |     |   ___    |
>        /     |          /     |     |__|   |   |
>       /      |         /      |           /   /
>      /       |        /       |          /   /
>     /   /|   |       /   /|   |         /   /
>    /   /_|   |__    /   /_|   |__      /   /
>   |             |  |             |    /   /
>   |______     __|  |______     __|   /   /_____
>          |   |            |   |     |          |      Pat Clark
>          |___|            |___|     |__________|       69 442
>                                                       400/400
> 
>    "Just your average 300+hp garage hogging, gas sucking, money pit"

Good luck Pat:

I'll save the logo so that I can remember how to spell 442.  Get back as 
soon as possible.  You're one of the fellows from which I've learned a 
little Oldsmobile.  
- -- 
SLTG

------------------------------

From: Dave Isho <davei-2@mail.idt.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:02:00 -0300
Subject: Re: Goofy EMail 

At 07:46 AM 7/10/96 -0300, you wrote:
>Joanne Beausoleil wrote:
>> 
>> This is bogus, I have a pantload of mail without this, am I missing
anything if I just delete them all?
>> 
>> ----------
>> From:   Mike Frederick[SMTP:edison3@cpeq.com]
>> Sent:   Tuesday, July 09, 1996 9:27 PM
>> To:     oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
>> Subject:        Goofy EMail
>> 
>> Anybody else getting goofy routing on their messages?
>> 
>> > InBox Message Type: Error
>> > InBox Message Subject: Undeliverable message
>> > InBox Message Text Follows:
>> > Message not delivered to 'Bev Facey Message Centre' (No routing path
>> > found to Message Center)
>> 
>> What the hell is this?
>> 
>> The 66 Toro and Mike
>> 
>> --
>>
>
>Mike & Joanne:
>
>I'd read them first.  I read all mine ;).  There might be something 
>important.  One of them says that there is a test on Thursday.
>-- 
>SLTG


Essay, true/false or multiple choice.

 >Dave Isho --- davei-2@mail.idt.net
     >67 Cutlass CS Convertible
     

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 08:05:21 -0300
Subject: Re: 1975 Oldsmobile Vista Cruiser

Jeffrey S. Perkins wrote:
> 
> I would like to know the availability of parts for a 1975 olds station
> wagon (vista cruiser) so far oldsmobile cannot find parts ... I need an electric seat control
	Same for most all GM cars for mamy, many years.
..body emblems,chrome
> around tirewells,window-rubber,etc.	Same body sedans & coupes should available (even Chevies)
 can anyone help?? 
>                                            Thanx, J.S. Perkins
>                                                 

Much of what you are talking about are standard sedan & coupe parts.  
Many are interchangeable from 1973 to 1977 - some from even earlier & 
from other GM bodies.  Check out the yards & part numbers interchanging 
at dealerships.

- -- 
SLTG

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 06:27:47 -0300
Subject: Re: heads, errors, misc. 

     I could be wrong too, but I understood "billet" to mean it was 
     "carved" from a solid block of metal, much like you'd carve a statue 
     out of a block of wood.  Forged would be pressed/heated/bent from a 
     solid piece of metal, like a blacksmith makes a horseshoe out of a 
     straight rod by heating, bending, and hammering it.  Of course cast is 
     obviously created from liquid metal and a mold.
     
     It's all fading quickly into fuzzy memory, but I think the 350 4bbl 
     that I found was the one that apparently suffered a carb fire.  The 
     intake was okay, and the rest of the engine looked okay (hood even 
     looked okay amazingly enough) but the carb was nothing but a mound of 
     deformed metal.  At least I think it used to be a carb. . .
     
     Is there any way to tell if it's got the forged crank without dropping 
     the pan to look at it?  Or at least any "strong indications" that 
     would warrant pulling the pan for a closer look, such as model or 
     year?
     
     Tom L.

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: heads, errors, misc.
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    7/9/96 10:27 PM
     
I just love that word "billet"! It means "solid chunk" if I am not mistaken. 
Therefore, are not *all* Olds rods "billet" steel, or does forging them no 
longer make it a "billet" of steel? And gee whiz, a *machined* crank! WOW! 
that's gotta be WAY better than those cast cransk that they just tossed in w/o 
machining them at all... Heh. Hey, don't take this personally, poster, I LOVE 
having this kind of info spread about... I also love playing with words, and 
one of the most overused in the last few years is..... "billet"
- -Chris-
     
>      On another note, I got to go out to the pull-n-save junkyard today.  I 
>      didn't find anything I was looking for, but I did see several smogger 
>      350's, an older 350 (no egr) with #5 heads and a 4bbl, and a big block
     
might wanna grab that carb & its CHOKE COIL...
     
>      (dunno the CID) in an old (also pre-egr) 98 w/ C heads and a 2-bbl.
     
could have that FORGED crank!

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 13:58:12 -0300
Subject: Re: 1975 Oldsmobile Vista Cruiser

Most of the stuff you describe can probably only be found either used via 
wrecking yards, or if you're lucky, with NOS or repro items through 
specialty suppliers like Fusicks. I'd suggest you check the web page 
(www.442.com) for the addresses and numbers of parts suppliers - many of 
them have catalogs, though I don't know about the vintage you're 
describing. Also suggest picking up a copy of Hemmings Motor News for 
many, many ads from parts suppliers. You might also want to join the Olds 
Club of America for its magazine which also has lots of ads with good 
sources for parts.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:00:30 -0300
Subject: Re: Signing Off

Pat,

I'm sorry to see you go. Any time one of our old-timers (sorry, but you 
know what I mean) departs I sense a loss. Hope you can get back here soon 
and if nothing else, please keep us posted on the progress with the 
4-4-2, OK? After all this time you can't leave us hanging!

Best of luck.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: lacey@dsea.com (Dan Lacey)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:39:27 -0300
Subject: HELP! Parts swap for '65 98 

I came across a set of rear swing arms (those things that hold the
differential to the frame). They are from a '64 or '65 Chevelle.

After crawling under my beast to measure the current set, I could not find
any differences...

Can anybody confirm this???
Is there any place that you can get specific information on parts like
dimensions???
Is anybody on the list maintaining a list of swap-able parts???

The deal is that I could trade this guy his arms for mine. This would allow
me to have one set worked on and then just swap them out.

[Boring Details]

I am going to have the arms "boxed". They are a U shape. To make them more
rigid, you weld a piece of metal to the open part. Same as when you "box" a
frame. BTW, I am in So. CA. so parts here are in unbelievable shape!
(compared to what I saw growing up in PA.)

Second, I would install new bushings. Something like polyurethane or
DelAlum (from Global West). Anybody used poly. bushings?? I hear they
squeak (unless you use some special grease with a graphite suspension).
Poly. bushings are MUCH cheaper than the DelAlum, and I am not going to
race this beast, so I would prefer the poly.

Finally, add an anti-sway bar.

The owner of this set replaced his with some trick tubular arms, so he has
these just lying around. I figure that I can get 90% of the functionality
of the "trick" arms by working on this set.

[SIDE NOTE]
I put in a new water pump. Now my heater core is leaking (even with the
heat off; is this usual? Does this mean that the valve that controls
whether water flows thru the core may need to be replaced?). I am about to
enter that dreadded (sp?) area of disassembling my dash and fender...
Got LOTS of work to do on the dash anyway.

HOW COME IT ALWAYS TURNS OUT THAT THE CAR ENDS UP TELLING YOU WHAT TO WORK ON!


*************************************************************************
* THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY  *       Dan Lacey ( lacey@dsea.com )        *
*                           *       Dainippon Screen Eng. of America    *
* LEFT BLANK                *       3700 W. Segerstrom Ave.             *
*                           *       Santa Ana, CA. 92704                *
*************************************************************************

------------------------------

From: lawrencr@kostabi.gdls.com (Robert Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:17:38 -0300
Subject: Re: Signing Off 

> 
> >  (Hopefully before the kid hits the terrible twos!)
> > 
> > The 66 Toro and Mike
> 
> I dunno... I think the "twos" are only "terrible" if'n you think they're
> gonna be... :)

I don't remember the twos being terrible, but I was awfully young then...

See ya (read ya?) when you get back.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Lawrence   | 1970 Oldsmobile 98 Convertible               .^.
lawrencr@gdls.com |  _________,~--,___________\____________     /9|8\
(810) 825-5450    |  |                |~    |        ___   |    \}|{/
Sterling Hts., MI |  =------(-o-)-------------------( o )--=      v

------------------------------

From: lawrencr@kostabi.gdls.com (Robert Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:45:05 -0300
Subject: Re: Temperature Gauge.... 307/4Bbl 

> the amount of HP the fan would take i think is almost nil...i think the
> whole concept of that clutch fan is flawed anyway...the heat from the engine
> must work its way to the clutch to make it engage...i think the best would
> be to run a restricter instead of a thermostat, and have electric fans run
> on a temp switch in the coolant flow...that way it would keep it at an
> optimal temp...

My understanding is that the HP loss from not using a clutched fan is
enough to make you want to use a clutched fan.  And, that the clutch
is RPM controlled not temperture controlled.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Lawrence   | 1970 Oldsmobile 98 Convertible               .^.
lawrencr@gdls.com |  _________,~--,___________\____________     /9|8\
(810) 825-5450    |  |                |~    |        ___   |    \}|{/
Sterling Hts., MI |  =------(-o-)-------------------( o )--=      v

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:46:21 -0300
Subject: RE: Signing Off

Off the list... next thing you know you will be selling the car! :)

- ----------
From: 	Greg Beaulieu[SMTP:ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca]
Sent: 	Wednesday, July 10, 1996 1:00 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Re: Signing Off

Pat,

I'm sorry to see you go. Any time one of our old-timers (sorry, but you 
know what I mean) departs I sense a loss. Hope you can get back here soon 
and if nothing else, please keep us posted on the progress with the 
4-4-2, OK? After all this time you can't leave us hanging!

Best of luck.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:25:14 -0300
Subject: Re: 67 diff. 

In a message dated 96-07-10 09:41:38 EDT, you write:

<< 
 >
 >Nope, can't swap gears.  The 10 bolt cover rear is a "B" or "P" rear, the
12
 >bolt cover with 10 bolt gears is a type "O".  The "B" and "P" gears will
 >interchange but not the "O".  Why not just swap the complete "O" rear into
 >the '67?  Even if the ring gears would swap, how would you set them up
 >(pinion depth, back lash, bearing loads...)?
 >
 >Bob Handren
 >
  thanks Bob, I wanted to keep the limited slip, however I guess I'll live
 with the 12 bolt till I can find a replacement with some deeper gears.
 
 <<--------------------------------->>
  >Dave Isho --- davei-2@mail.idt.net
      >67 Cutlass CS Convertible           
  >>

You can get gears for your current rear.  There may be no need to swap in the
"O".  Check out the bigger rear/differential suppliers in the magazines such
as Drive Train Specialists (DTS).  A lot of gear ratios are available for the
"B" & "P" rears.  But there are two different pinion gear spline sizes.  The
"B" rear uses the smaller one.  Look at your axle center section housing.
 There will be at least one rib running along the side.  One rib is type "B",
two ribs converging towards each other is a "P".  I hope you have the "P".
 It has the larger spline count and diameter.

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:26:09 -0300
Subject: Re: 66 98 Stumpers 

In a message dated 96-07-10 01:48:06 EDT, you write:

<<  Has anyone else here had experience with new body bushings?  I bought 
 a set from Year One when I put it together.  Less than one year later 
 they're starting to rot/crack.    I *DON'T* savor the thought of doing 
 this job again....
  >>

Gee, and Year One advertises that "Parts is Parts, Right?"  Only one year,
and how long did the original factory bushings last?  And were they that bad
in the first place?  The quality of restoration parts is, unfortunately,
spotty at best.  If you can't get NOS, try to get info on others' experiences
with what you intend to buy.

Year One recently started coding some of their supplies.  It is a left handed
way of telling those who read the fine print what the quality is.  For
instance the rear quarter '67 Cutlass patch panel translates to "last resort"
use.  And I guess they still sell some of them too.  It might be better to
use sheet metal from old high school lockers to make the patch (I actually
did that once :-)).

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:24:48 -0300
Subject: Re: Temperature Gauge.... 307/4Bbl 

In a message dated 96-07-09 23:25:19 EDT, you write:

<< Well, out of the three, two have two wires. I dont think the front one is 
 the temp sensor, like I said, it's diameter where it enters the engine 
 (about 3/8s) is too small, it must be the oil pressure sensor. >>

The oil pressure sensor is not in the intake manifold.  It is tapped into the
engine block in front of the intake to the right of the oil filler tube
behind the water pump.

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:23:16 -0300
Subject: Re: Alternator Upgrade Q 

In a message dated 96-07-10 01:43:10 EDT, you write:

<< Converting externally regulated GM alternators (pre-'71) to internally
 regulated post-71 alternators is a relativly easy affair.   This is also a 
 necessasary conversion before/during a HEI or other electronic igniton
 conversion.    Also nice if you get stuck in the middle of nowhere 
 and need parts --  10/12SI units are much more common these days...
 
 Once you've done it, you'll never drive another car with a vibratior 
 regulator and points.... >>


Can't you accomplish essentially the same protective function vs HEI
ignitions by using one of the replacement solid state external regulators?
 That's what I did on both of our cars. 

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:24:51 -0300
Subject: Re: posi_from_wagon 

In a message dated 96-07-10 09:37:33 EDT, you write:

<< Is a hub-hub swap from a Chevelle wagon w/posi into a 67 Cutlass
convertible 
 feasible? 
  >>

Hmm, I know the difference between 64-67 and 68-up is a whopping 0.25 inch.
 That's 1/8 inch each side.  Doubt it will be noticeable. I put a '70 12 bolt
Ch*vy rear in a '64 Cutlass.  Fit fine, car ran mid 11's, never broke.

The wagon rear may be a different width but I doubt it.  The extra width of
the wagon rear brakes are probably taken up by different backing plates.  I
believe the wagons also use larger axle bearings.

Perhaps others have done this swap.

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:25:42 -0300
Subject: Re: Gremlins (WAS RE: Other lists...) 

In a message dated 96-07-10 10:42:42 EDT, you write:

<< 
 > From: 	Blaine Sanders 5483[SMTP:BLAINES@strata3d.com]
 
 > (I personally think Gremlin's are one of the *ugliest* cars ever made, but
 > he sees something in it...)
 > 
 > Thanks!
 > 
 > -BS
 
 I agree with you on their frugliness, Blaine, but that is just my personal
 and subjective taste; However, I did have a friend in HS who had one with
 a built-up 304, which made it a bit impressive... I remember he could
 pop wheelies at will, one memorable time in particular, in heavy traffic
 leaving the Cape Cod Coliseum (RIP) after a Kinks concert...
 
 
 
 Tim Churchill >>


Gremlins are also a favorite of demolition derby drivers.  Seem the unit body
construction is very well designed and they are tough to beat to death too.
 They're still ugly.

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:31:01 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals 

At 10:53 AM 7/10/96 -0300, you wrote:

>Right, and the current system (at least the current cutoff year of 1964)
>doesn't strike me as making a whole lot of sense, if for no other reason
>than that I don't believe 1964 was one of the big changeover years, was
>it? Seems to me like that was an intermediate year in the typical GM
>3-year (or perhaps 4-year) cycle.
>
>Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431

Andrew,

I saw the exact issue of "why 1964" addressed in an issue of Runabouts
to Rockets once.  The reason given for cutting off recognition with 1964
was that, after this year, "the character of the cars, and their owners,
changed."  That's an exact quote.  I thought that bit about "their owners" a
bit strange, but I guess it IS a different kind of person who would
buy and fix up a 442 than who would buy and fix up a '42 L98 or
something similar.

1964 was, however, a changeover year, although perhaps not a
striking one.  It was the last of the boxy, squared-off, slab-sided
look.  1965 was the first of the tear-drop, coke-bottle, whatever-
you-want-to-call-it-look.  The '65s were notable for the much more
rounded rear fenders.   The difference in appearance between
a '64 and a '65 88 or 98 is much more striking than that between
a '63 and a '64.  On the other hand, the '64 F-85/Cutlass line was
much more different from the '63s and earlier than it was from the
'65s and '66s.


************************************************
Daniel A. Gulino
Associate Professor and Graduate Chairman
Department of Chemical Engineering
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio  45701-2979
(614) 593-1495
(614) 593-0873 (fax)
gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu
http://www.ent.ohiou.edu/che/faculty/gulino.html
************************************************

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:46:17 -0300
Subject: Re: gears, etc. 

In a message dated 96-07-10 11:02:45 EDT, you write:

<< Those are adjustable. The body manual shows how, but a glance will show
you how
 to do it yourself. -Chris- >>

Yeah, I agree it's pretty easy to see how to do it, but _doing_ it isn't that
easy.  Last time I needed to replace a broken trunk torsion bar I made darn
sure to wear protective eyewear.  Never did get the sucker to the notch I
really wanted.  'Course there is a factory tool for the job which I didn't of
course have.  Would have made it a bunch easier.  Vise Grips only allow so
much leverage and it takes a bit of stored energy to lift those good old down
to the bumper double steel construction trunk lids.

Since mine was broken I also experienced the joy of removing good ones from a
junker or two. Carefully.  Kept a spare pair and of course haven't needed a
replacement since.  But, get rid of 'em and guess what will happen?

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:46:52 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals 

In a message dated 96-07-10 11:06:42 EDT, you write:

<<  I don't believe 1964 was one of the big changeover years, was
 it? Seems to me like that was an intermediate year in the typical GM
 3-year (or perhaps 4-year) cycle. >>


Andy:

I believe there are several reasons.  One possible reason is that's the last
year of the first generation Olds engine and the beginning of the
"Cutlass/442 Curse."  Also OCA allows "Modified" Oldsmobiles.  It was before
my time in OCA but I was told the NAOC broke off from OCA for these and other
reasons.

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:46:22 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals 

In a message dated 96-07-10 11:02:38 EDT, you write:

<< Personally, I think that they ought to raise it every year so that the 
 most recent year recognized is 25 years old.  Thus, each year they could 
 recognize a new model year and celebrate its officially becoming an 
 "antique" and welcoming it into the club. >>


If they don't start moving it up the membership will age itself out of a
club.

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:44:27 -0300
Subject: Re: 66 98 Stumpers

BobH592058@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 96-07-10 01:48:06 EDT, you write:
> 
> <<  Has anyone else here had experience with new body bushings?  I bought
>  a set from Year One when I put it together.  Less than one year later
>  they're starting to rot/crack.    
> 
> Gee, and Year One advertises that "Parts is Parts, Right?"  Only one year,
> and how long did the original factory bushings last? 
> 
> Bob Handren

Bob:

Doesn't Year One mean one year.  It makes sense to me.  For some reason 
the amount of quality is inversely proportional to the amount of 
advertisement or bragging. 

My grandpa told me that & he learned it from his father.
- -- 
SLTG

------------------------------

From: Dave Isho <davei-2@mail.idt.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:52:13 -0300
Subject: Re: 67 diff. 

>You can get gears for your current rear.  There may be no need to swap in the
>"O".  Check out the bigger rear/differential suppliers in the magazines such
>as Drive Train Specialists (DTS).  A lot of gear ratios are available for the
>"B" & "P" rears.  But there are two different pinion gear spline sizes.  The
>"B" rear uses the smaller one.  Look at your axle center section housing.
> There will be at least one rib running along the side.  One rib is type "B",
>two ribs converging towards each other is a "P".  I hope you have the "P".
> It has the larger spline count and diameter.
>
>Bob Handren
>
I checked with Richmond Gear and was told that I would have to stay w/the
3.08 or higher ratio...I could not go to a 3.55 or 3.7? because I would have
to replace carrier.

 >Dave Isho --- davei-2@mail.idt.net
     >67 Cutlass CS Convertible
     

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 15:51:50 -0300
Subject: Re: Re: Temperature Gauge.... 307/4Bbl 

For some reason Mark's previous posting (excerpted below), which I can
see he sent to the Olds list, arrived without a Reply-To: header on my 
machine, so this followup that I meant to send to the list went only 
to him instead... more fun with emailers, I suppose...

To: Mark Samaniego <marks@IntNet.net>
From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Temperature Gauge.... 307/4Bbl

>Yea, I read it needs a constant stream of coolant to be accurate. How 
>accurate are these $15.00 gauges? :\

Wellll... You're more interested in being able to spot a _change_ in
reading or behavior, rather than exactly which number it's pointing to.
The $15 temp gauge should do the job.

>Well, out of the three, two have two wires.

Whoa, yes, leave those two-wire jobs alone.

>I dont think the front one is 
>the temp sensor, like I said, it's diameter where it enters the engine 
>(about 3/8s) is too small, it must be the oil pressure sensor.

No, I really think it's the temp sensor. Assuming it's a simple single
wire connector, turn on the ignition, ground the wire on the block and
see which warning light comes on. And an oil pressure sensor (or idiot
light switch, in your car's case) is bigger than a temperature light
switch; the latter resembles a fat brass plug (often with a plastic end
cap), and has no pressure diaphragm on it.

>The idiot light isn't triggered by the computer? One sensor for the 'puter, 
>and one for the idiot light?

Correct. The TEMP light comes on whenever the sending unit screwed into
the block decides that it's hot enough to ground the circuit. The light
controlled by the computer is your CHECK ENGINE light. The two are 
completely independent; the computer gets its temperature signal from
one of the two-wire sensors you discovered elsewhere, and it may make
a note in its memory that the temperature went out of range at some
point, but it has no control over the TEMP light.

>Time to search for another sensor!

No, I really think the single-wire sensor you found is the one you want.
You could also try checking a Chilton Component Locator manual or Olds
service manual to doublecheck which sender is which.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:51:54 -0300
Subject: Re: Alternator Upgrade Q

BobH592058@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Can't you accomplish essentially the same protective function vs HEI
> ignitions by using one of the replacement solid state external 
> regulators?

Why not, indeed.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:56:55 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals

Daniel Gulino wrote:

> The reason given for cutting off recognition with 1964 was that, after 
> this year, "the character of the cars, and their owners, changed."

Well, la-de-dah.  Not good enough to own an old Oldsmobile, you have to 
own just the right one!  Sounds just like a snob country club to me.

> It was the last of the boxy, squared-off, slab-sided look.

Was that the owners?     ;)

The 66 tear-drop, coke-bottle, whatever-you-want-to-call-it Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:00:24 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals

Daniel Gulino wrote:
> 
> At 10:53 AM 7/10/96 -0300, you wrote:
> 
> >Right, and the current system (at least the current cutoff year of 1964)
> >doesn't strike me as making a whole lot of sense, 
> >
> >Andrew C. Green           
> 
> Andrew,
> 
>  The reason given for cutting off recognition with 1964
> was that, after this year, "the character of the cars, and their owners,
> changed." 
> 
> ************************************************
> Daniel A. Gulino
>
> 

Dan:

I think the real reason is that no one wants to admit that the next 
generations appreciate cars or love them like the old timers do.  Being 
53, I admit to not fully appreciating a row of pink S-10's at a car 
show.  The truth is that in 1964 a guy with a 1949 Rocket 88 only had a 
car 15 years old & his car was a little new for a real antique.  He 
wasn't wanted.

Now 32 years later, that guy W/the 1949 is a real old timer & part of 
the in-crowd.  A hobby will die if this keeps on.  We must all accept 
people & cars because of what they represent, not whether they are our 
favorites.

I understand that in the Kaiser-Frazier Club, I would be one of the 
youngest members.  That is self destructive.  I love old cars such as 
these & I hope that the Kaiser-Frazier people can love my 1960's 
Oldsmobiles.  We must be inclusive, not exclusive.

Help me off the soapbox, I think that I am getting dizzy.     


- -- 
SLTG

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:03:12 -0300
Subject: Re: Gremlins (WAS RE: Other lists...)

BobH592058@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 96-07-10 10:42:42 EDT, you write:
> 
> <<
>  > From:        Blaine Sanders 5483[SMTP:BLAINES@strata3d.com]
> 
>  > (I personally think Gremlin's are one of the *ugliest* cars ever made, but
>  > he sees something in it...)
>  >
>  > Thanks!
>  >
>  > > 
>  I agree with you on their frugliness, Blaine, but that is just my personal
>  and subjective taste; > 
> 
> 
>  Tim Churchill >>
> 
>
>  They're still ugly.
> 
> Bob Handren

One could say that about a 1958 Oldsmobile too, but what a statement 
that car is!
- -- 
SLTG

------------------------------

From: Fernando Proietto <proietto@dow.on.doe.ca>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 02:11:47 -0300
Subject: Re: Signing Off

Well Pat,
	 it was your urge to talk Oldsmobile that made you join in the first place, and it will 
be the same urge that will make you come back. Remember it's still the summer and your car is 
only a few steps away. You'll be back soon...
Anyway glad to of talked to you.
- -- 
Regards
Fernando Proietto

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 12:08:25 -0300
Subject: Re: gears, etc.

BobH592058@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  But, get rid of 'em and guess what will happen?
> 
> Bob Handren

Bob:

You've got me.  What will happen?
- -- 
SLTG

------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 17:22:47 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals 

At 04:46 PM 7/10/96 -0300, you wrote:

><< Personally, I think that they ought to raise it every year so that the 
> most recent year recognized is 25 years old.  Thus, each year they could 
> recognize a new model year and celebrate its officially becoming an 
> "antique" and welcoming it into the club. >>
>
>
>If they don't start moving it up the membership will age itself out of a
>club.
>
>Bob Handren


Bob, this is a good point, but you must keep in mind that there are plenty
of clubs that recognize makes that are no longer made (Packard, Studebaker,
etc.), and THESE clubs continue to thrive.  But I agree that the NAOC could
keep fresh blood coming into the club by continuing to recognize newer models
and their owners.  


Dan


************************************************
Daniel A. Gulino
Associate Professor and Graduate Chairman
Department of Chemical Engineering
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio  45701-2979
(614) 593-1495
(614) 593-0873 (fax)
gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu
http://www.ent.ohiou.edu/che/faculty/gulino.html
************************************************

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:35:28 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals

Lloyd Culp wrote:
> 
> 
> I think the real reason is that no one wants to admit that the next
> generations appreciate cars or love them like the old timers do.  

Dunno about that.  I just don't think they like our new-fangled 
auto-mo-biles.

> Being 53, I admit to not fully appreciating a row of pink S-10's at a 
> car show.  

Being 47, nor would I ... but would hope I'm a sensible enough guy to 
appriciate that THEY appriciate their pink S-10s

> He wasn't wanted.

What goes around, comes around, eh?

> A hobby will die if this keeps on.

Exactly.  Just like the American Legions, VFWs, etc. are in the process 
of doing.

> We must all accept people & cars because of what they represent, not 
> whether they are our favorites.

Well said!

> I understand that in the Kaiser-Frazier Club, I would be one of the
> youngest members.  

Kaiser-Frazier?  Boy, I haven't heard that name brought up in a while.  
Don't know where there's a Hispano-Suiza (sp?) chapter, do you?

You sound good up there on the soapbox, kid.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 17:35:10 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals 

At 07:56 PM 7/10/96 -0300, you wrote:
>Daniel Gulino wrote:
>
>> The reason given for cutting off recognition with 1964 was that, after 
>> this year, "the character of the cars, and their owners, changed."
>
>Well, la-de-dah.  Not good enough to own an old Oldsmobile, you have to 
>own just the right one!  Sounds just like a snob country club to me.


Mike,

I agree.  But I think the founders just got tired of having every Olds-related
show be dominated by the Cutlasses and 442s.


I predict that eventually the NAOC will have to admit newer cars.  Everyone
likes to talk about how it would be nice to have more cars from the 20s,
30s, and 40s at the shows, but they're just not out there.  At our Mid-Ohio
Chapter annual show, we'll get maybe 100 cars, and only about 10 will
have been made before 1960.  The NAOC WILL age itself out of existence
if it doesn't begin to open up to newer models.  I attended the NAOC national
meet in 1993 with my '64 Jetstar.  From what I could see, I had to be the 
youngest if not one of the two or three youngest owners there.  (I was 36 at the
time).  There were some beautiful cars in attendance, but the average age of
an owner had
to be 55 or 60 I would guess.  Not a good sign for the long-term health
of the club.  The cars that young guys can afford to buy and restore are from
the 1960s, 70s, and 80s, not the 20s and 30s.  This is where the membership
of the future will have to come from.

Of course, if the NAOC goes too far in admitting Oldsmobiles, they'll end up
looking just like the OCA, and there'll be no more justification for their
existence.
This is why I think a good compromise is to admit cars that are 25 years old
and older only.



Dan



************************************************
Daniel A. Gulino
Associate Professor and Graduate Chairman
Department of Chemical Engineering
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio  45701-2979
(614) 593-1495
(614) 593-0873 (fax)
gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu
http://www.ent.ohiou.edu/che/faculty/gulino.html
************************************************

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:36:34 -0300
Subject: Re: Gremlins (WAS RE: Other lists...)

Lloyd Culp wrote:
> 
> One could say that about a 1958 Oldsmobile too, but what a statement
> that car is!

And great for squashing Gremlins!    ;)

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: grpruett@vt.edu (Greg Pruett)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 19:42:51 -0300
Subject: Re: posi_from_wagon 

Not all wagons had 2 1/2 inch wide brake shoes.  My `72 Vista Cruiser has 2"
wide brake shoes in back, despite weighing about 500 lbs more than a
standard Cutlass.  The fact that the car has front disk brakes may have
something to do with it, I'm not sure.

I can't tell you whether the rearend will bolt into your `67.  I can tell
you that A 10-bolt C-clip type rearend from a 1977 ch*vy malibu wouldn't
come close to bolting in.  The spring mounts were in the wrong position and
the shock mounts were different.  The control arms were the wrong angles and
legnths too.  The bottom shock mounts on a Vista Cruiser are a next to the
rear wheels.  They are low enough to be about even with the bottom of the
brake drums  and they are to the rear of the axle housing.  The spring mount
pads are forward of the rear axle on the VC.  The VC has 5" longe wheelbase
than a standard Cutlass, so if the rearend mountings are different, that may
be why.  A Cutlass Cruiser wagon has the same wheelbase as a sedan, so the
rearend may mount differently than a vista-cruiser.  

Greg Pruett

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------------------------------------------------
The Hybrid Electric Vehicle Team of Virginia Tech
http://www.vt.edu:10021/org/hybridcar/index.html
FIRST PLACE IN THE `96 FUTURECAR CHALLENGE
49mpg city;  0-60 in 12 sec 

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:40:44 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals 

>Kaiser-Frazier?  Boy, I haven't heard that name brought up in a while.  
>Don't know where there's a Hispano-Suiza (sp?) chapter, do you?

Hispano-Suiza Society
175 St. Germain Avenue
San Francisco, CA  94114
(415) 664-4378

http://hfm.umd.umich.edu/SHOW/hispano.html

Be careful what you ask for, Mike.  ;-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:10:34 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals

Andrew C. Green wrote:
> 
> Be careful what you ask for, Mike.  ;-)

That's what I like about you.  You're a just storehouse of useless 
knowledge!    ;)

Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:08:52 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals

Daniel Gulino wrote:
> 
> This is why I think a good compromise is to admit cars that are 25 
> years old and older only.

Agreed.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Michael Brady <drolds19@mail.idt.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:38:18 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals

BobH592058@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 96-07-10 11:02:38 EDT, you write:
> 
> << Personally, I think that they ought to raise it every year so that the
>  most recent year recognized is 25 years old.  Thus, each year they could
>  recognize a new model year and celebrate its officially becoming an
>  "antique" and welcoming it into the club. >>
> 
> If they don't start moving it up the membership will age itself out of a
> club.
> 
> Bob Handren
> Hello bob, i am a member of naoc and i agree with you!!!! I own a 69'
> 4-4-2 but also enjoy the older oldsmobiles, thus the membership, how-
> ever time is not on their side and they need to re-think their
> position. Perhap's i'll drop them a line concerning this, and 
> that is a great idea celebrating a new model year every year!!!!

------------------------------

From: Paul Bartlett <bartletp@osshe.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:45:21 -0300
Subject: Re: found 1966 Toronado for sale (fwd)

Forwarded message:
>From bartletp@osshe.edu Tue Jul  9 13:13 PDT 1996
From: Paul Bartlett <bartletp@osshe.edu>
Message-Id: <199607092013.NAA21995@osshe.edu>
Subject: Re: found 1966 Toronado for sale
To: oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 13:13:39 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: bartletp@osshe.edu (Paul Bartlett)
In-Reply-To: <31E132A5.7C98@wave.net> from "Darrell T. Weinman, M.D." at Jul 8, 96 01:09:09 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 716

Darrell,

The 1966 Toronado I saw for sale is on highway 99 south of Medford Oregon,
by Talent Oregon.  Its on a used car lot -- full of old cars that have
been sitting for a long time.  Across the street is another lot that
seems to specialize in old trucks that have been sitting for a long
time.

I live in Corvallis, so I don't know where the Rogue Animal Hospital is.
I'm not sure if we're speaking of the same car.  However the term "dog"
seems an apt description of the car I saw... 

Do you by chance also own a Toronado and also live in Oregon?

Thanks, Paul

 > > Dear Paul:

 > > Is that the Toro dog back of
Rogue Animal Hospital used car lot? > > DTW
> 
> 


- -- 
Paul Bartlett
E-mail bartletp@osshe.edu


- -- 
Paul Bartlett
Internal Audit Division
Oregon State System of Higher Education
PO Box 488, Corvallis OR 97339-0488

Phone (503) 737-0510
E-mail bartletp@osshe.edu

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:57:56 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: NAOC Nationals 

Here's a curse: http://fwb.gulf.net/~bobrita/bobshoby.html

David Brown          OCA #27978         (312) 702-9157
               Check out: www.442.com
Send Olds FAQ request to: dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu

- ------------------
I believe there are several reasons.  One possible reason is that's the last
year of the first generation Olds engine and the beginning of the
"Cutlass/442 Curse."

------------------------------

From: Blaine Sanders 5483 <BLAINES@strata3d.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:21:56 -0300
Subject: 350 to 455 conversion

Hey everyone... I just came upon a running Olds 455 engine and TH400
tranny for $150.  It's actually the whole car that some guy wants to get
rid of really bad.  I haven't found out which model it is, but when I find out
I'll let you all know.  I'll be parting it out after I remove the engine and
tranny.  

Anyway, what I wanted to know is:  

Will the 455 drop right in, in place of the 350?  Or will I have to weld new
mounts in, etc.  Is it gonna be a big pain in the anal canal?

I suspect the Tranny won't fit, as it's coming out of a long-bodied 4-door
and it's probably got the long tail shaft.  

Also, will I have to change the differential to handle the extra tork of the
455?  I currently only have a 10-bolt rear-end.  The car has a 12-bolt,
and I believe it's a posi, but the old man's son wants it for his GTO.

Any comments/suggestions/help would be greatly appreciated.

- -Blaine

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:31:05 -0300
Subject: RECALL!

Folks,

Not sure if I got this right but last night on the news I heard a major 
GM recall for either 95-96 or 96-97 cars including the 88 and 98.  
Something about engine fires and not trying to start your car with the 
hood up. (?)  Interested parties may want to call their dealers.

Not sure if Sparky's involved or not.    ;)

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:21:04 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: NAOC Nationals

David Brown wrote:
> 
> Here's a curse: http://fwb.gulf.net/~bobrita/bobshoby.html

YEEECCHHHH!  Not only did he subframe it with a Nova, put in a Chubby 
motor, the poor thing looks like hell!

                    "Got dem Caddy powr seats, tho"

I propose we form PETO: People for the Ethical Treatment of Oldsmobiles!
Somebody oughta go rescue the poor girl and lock him up for vehicle 
abuse.

The 66 Toro and Mike

 
- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Jason Barnes <junko@YorkU.CA>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:42:19 -0300
Subject: Windshield antenna ground

I have a Year One windshield antenna ground clip (9827N) which is
supposed to mount on the cowl area of 71 & 72's and contact the hood.  
Does anyone where and how this mounts? (ie open end toward the front?)

  Thanks alot for the Alternator conversion info Bob V, the local alt. 
shops were somewhat lame and your help was excellent.  will try this 
weekend. 

BTW i should have ordered the alternator conversion kit but now that
i havnt I would get slammed with $80 brokerage crossing the border. sigh

------------------------------

From: lacey@dsea.com (Dan Lacey)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:36:06 -0300
Subject: '65 olds 98 parts swap 

I think I got bounced from the list...

I resubscribed and am back on.

If you responded to my parts swap question, could you be kind enough
forward them to me...


*************************************************************************
* THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY  *       Dan Lacey ( lacey@dsea.com )        *
*                           *       Dainippon Screen Eng. of America    *
* LEFT BLANK                *       3700 W. Segerstrom Ave.             *
*                           *       Santa Ana, CA. 92704                *
*************************************************************************

------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:40:41 -0300
Subject: Re: 350 to 455 conversion

Blaine,
I don't think you'll have to weld anything.  You will need to change the 
brackets to accept the motor mounts. 

------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:52:28 -0300
Subject: floor mats

This is probably a long shot, but does anyone out there in the free world have a 
 set of blue NOS floor mats for my 70 442 frame off? Been looking everywhere for 
a set, and so far no luck.

Art Fuller
North Texas Oldsmobile Club
OCA member #018643

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 18:35:50 -0300
Subject: errors

>> Here is some more info (for that missing/overlooked/stuff not there  stuff)
>> Some more engine info:
>> Year    Disp.     Comp.    Bore    Stroke     HP        Torque     Induction
>> 65      400   10.25 to 1   4.00     3.98   345 @ 4800  440 @ 3200    4 bbl
>> 66-69   400    10.5 to 1   4.00     3.98   350 @ 4800  440 @ 3600    4 bbl
>
>Ooooops! That early 400 engine went from '65 to '67, not thru '69!
>
>> 66      400    10.5 to 1   4.00     3.98   360 @ 5200  440 @ 3600   Tri-Power
>> 66-67   425    10.5 to 1   4.13     3.97   385 @ 4800  475 @ 3200    4 bbl
>> 68-69   400    10.5 to 1   4.00     3.98   360 @ 5400  440 @ 3600    4 bbl
>
>Ooooops again! the '68-9 400 engine does not have a 4.000 bore; with the longer
>stroke, the bore was reduced to 3.870", a rather weird number.

I copied this list straight out of a book my bro-in-law gave me.  Not having
the massive technical knowledge posessed by some others on this list, I had
no way to check it's accuracy.  Therefore, there may be errors included on
the list; ya'll who have that "massive technical knowledge" will have to
point them out. Sorry for any inconvenience.  
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: Chris Fair <ChrisFair@FairIsaac.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:09:04 -0300
Subject: Mid60's Big Olds Stuff 

Part of a conversation on misc. topics re the big cars. Comments, corrections
and ideas welcomed! Hope this isn't cryptic. If this is too long for the 
forum, please advise, don't want to breach the netiquette.


OK, I'm now convinced to go with the variable valve, especially since I
will be upgrading the brakes as separate projects. Are you saying that some
of these cars CAME with variable proportioning valves???

>No, the factory did not fit variable valves, just fixed proportioning ones
which are generally located right below some master cylinders. I've also seen them in some ch*vy novas. Probably cheaper and easier than redesigning the whole
braking system to allow for disc brakes. 

I like the idea of 15" wheels. Then I can run a lower profile tire.

>Can run a lower profile tire, but be prepared for some interference on extreme right or left turns with the front wheels.  I've run mine this way for 3+ years and not had a problem other than nicely shining the inner fender. The car 
reminds you not to turn too hard by whining and grinding a bit. Also note that 
you may wind up with higher circumference tires which will make your speedo 
report low. Mine reports 2-5 mph low at around 60 mph. I think my tire size is 
225/R15, can check more closely if you're interested. Went with Michelins, great tires long lasting and good handling. 

BTW, there is a rivet that fell out of one of my power window mechanisms; any
suggestions on how to fix this?? 

>Haven't had this problem (yet?) , but a couple of ideas might help. 1) check
the boneyard for 88 or 98 window parts 65-66 will fit, maybe 67 too. Failing
that I'd get a small nut/bolt combination to substitute for the rivet which is
non serviceable. Get a bolt or screw right diameter (ie =to the rivet), then
tighten the nut onto it and cut off the end to fit. Maybe even leave a thread
or two extra and hammer them down so the nut doesn't work it's way off through
use. If there's room, put a washer on. Either way I figure you'll have to pull
the entire mechanism out before working on it. Look out for the heavy duty
springs which push the window up. I met a guy once who broke his hand when it
spring slicing into him with the sharp window hardware. 

While you're in the doors, you might get some heavy mil clear plastic to
replace the tar paper which originally sealed them. Keeps the water out and
the quiet in. Also grease the window mechanism while you're at it and clean
out the drain channels.  At the bottom of the body and doors there should be
some rubber seals which let water out. If clogged, they're inviting rot and
retaining water. 

The previous owner had the radio fixed, but never got it connected right,
or the speakers are blown. There is no speaker in the back. There is an
antenna mount on the front fender, and a motorized unit in the back...Which
one is stock???

>Radios are something I've really learned about.  The wiring diagram is
invaluable here again. Since you've got a hard top, I'd put some nice 6x9's
under the rear deck behind the seat, if you don't mind the cutting. Mine has a
factory speaker location in the middle of the rear seat, perhaps you can find
a hardtop analogue. (Conv. seats are different to allow for hydraulic
hardware). If you see a 66 or 67 Toro, they usually have the speaker
enclosure. Good hunting. Depending on how far you want  to take it, you can
fit a radio in the glove box and 5.25" speakers in the front doors in the low
front corner. You can also put little 2" tweeters in the dash if you cut the
round holes (just at the outer edges of the defroster outlets) Not factory,
but sounds truly great, also doesn't look out of place at all with black
grilles to match flat black paint on dash.  I did mine when I replaced the
windshield. Best sound in 15 years. Re the antenna, I think the right rear is
the stock location for all 98's except maybe a low ender. Most likely the
right front fender is a replacement from an 88. You can check this by looking
for bondo on the inside of the fender where the 98 scripts go, you should see
some filled ones where the 88 trim went. You also might want to rewire the
antenna directly to the battery so that when you turn the car off and haven't
lowered the antenna you can do it without turning the key.  Neat small fix. 

What is a pressure/vacuum system???

>There have been a few postings on this. Factory setup for the 66's had you
fill the radiator to a fill line 3/4 of the way up the radiator. See the "Fill
Line" in the right tank on the engine side. Deal was that the motor would heat
up and the coolant would expand to fill and cool. A better system was
developed later with a 15 pound cap. I think this was factory from maybe 72
and up. The better idea was to fill the radiator completely (no cavitation
- -maximum cooling). This time as the coolant expands it opens the spring cap
once pressure gets >15 pounds and blows into the expansion tank. When it
cools, the liquid is drawn back into the radiator by vacuum. 76 Eldo expansion
tank bolts on neatly if you drill the requsite holes on the horizontal bar
that the radiator sits behind. Not factory, but clean.

The wife already asked, "Where do I put the CD player?". Neither of us want
to destroy the dash!!! I never thought of gauges tho... I was wondering
where to put them...

>You can put the head unit in the glove box on the left side and guages on the
right hung with screws and nuts from the top of the glove box. Then mount the
changer under the seat or in the trunk depending on how you feel about security. Don't destroy the dash, just get a glove box from the boneyard, cut out a head unit sized hole in the back and mount the head unit. Then screw the glove box 
in and hook up the wires. Put the head unit as far back in the glove box as possible to minimize interference with the door. Let me know if you do this, I could give you better directions. Also you can get an antenna splitter to use both 
radios real cheap. 

>I have Autometer mechanical guages: temp, oil pressure and amps.
Temp is useful, oil pressure I guess (never had a problem). Amps is nice but
dangerous because of high amperage and tricky to wire (tip: don't run starter
amperage through this guage - unless you want a guage/cigar lighter...)

When I turn on my high beams, a low beam goes out. The driver's' side high
comes on and the pass. side low turns off (pass. side high never comes on).
Anyway, ALL lights are new...

>Interesting you have a similar problem to mine. Guess that's why we're here.
If by "all lights are new" you mean all bulbs, check the electrical connectors
which go right to the bulb (the plastic ones) they might be dirty after 30
years. Also check that the metal which the plastic clips attach to are firmly
attached to the glass. Other than that pull another wiring harness or parts
thereof to mix and match. 

>Hotrod stuff: I go back and forth on that. 98's weren't really designed for
speed, but it is nice to get it going. My goal really is a powerful car that
is quiet, but moves when you open up the back two barrels. Next move is the
rear end ratio, but I'm ambivalent given rising gas cost, cost of swap and
decrease in economy. It's currently either a 2.56 or 2.73 and came with a
3.08. 

When you hit the boneyard look for the following cool rare parts:
1) am/fm radio esp. with reverb unit (65-66 are the same). Reverb switch is
under the dash, low below the ashtray. Also the wonderbar radio with the
footswitch. Never have seen one of those. 
2) Hazard flasher. Extremely rare since it wasn't required in '65 or '66. It
mounts underhanging the bottom of the dash to the right of the driver's wheel.
3) Power ventipanes (vent windows). The motors are rare as are the switches.
Look for six switches instead of 4 on the driver's window control
4) Left dual exhaust manifold, be sure and pull the different tranmission
control rods. 
5) 6 way seat 
6) Speedminder speedometer. Distinguisable by a big pointy knob in the center
which turns a white hand on the speedo. Beeps when you hit the speed it's set
for. Cool. 
7) Factory cruise. Also very rare and hard to keep working, but neat when it
does. I've disconnected mine now, until I can get the parts to make it work
correctly. Control is below the gas guage in a slot cut in the metal dash. The
mechanical system is a 2 way reversible motor with a rod connecting it to the
throttle. The motor pieces also be found in some Caddies, but not the interior
stuff. 
8) Auto headlamp dimmer (autronic eye). Big stupid torpedo on a pedastal
looking thing which fed into a tube system that kicked down your headlights
whenever you came on something bright (assumed to be an oncoming car). Never
have installed it, can't find the amplifier *tubes* to make it work right.
Also common to some Caddies, but requires a different headlamp switch -- I
have enough headlight trouble now without making the system more complex. 

Hope this helps, let me know if you need more detail on any of this stuff.. 

------------------------------

From: atsmith@icnet.net (Andrew Smith)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:24:55 -0300
Subject: Re: Goofy EMail

Mike Frederick wrote:
> 
> Anybody else getting goofy routing on their messages?
> 
> > InBox Message Type: Error
> > InBox Message Subject: Undeliverable message
> > InBox Message Text Follows:
> > Message not delivered to 'Bev Facey Message Centre' (No routing path
> > found to Message Center)
> 
> What the hell is this?
> 
> The 66 Toro and Mike
> 
> --
> Michael R. Frederick, CEO
> Edison3, Incorporated
> Tampa, Florida
> (813) 210-8649

he.. i was just about to say the same thing.. Its hard to pick out the 
messages your intrested in when you cant read a subject or anything. 

Andrew and his '88 Trofeo

------------------------------

From: "Dink" <dink@infinet.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:32:04 -0300
Subject: Olds @ Norwalk

Anybody going this weekend to Norwalk for the Olds Nationals?  
Anybody know what the deal is?  Is it show? race? swap?  Is it 
saturday and sunday or just one day?


Thanks
   Dink
____________________________________________________
Dink                   Cleveland,Ohio
80 Olds Delta 88 Royale
95 Formula 6M, T's, 1SC, Hurst, CAGS!
Dink@infinet.com
- ----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:36:01 -0300
Subject: Re: heads, errors, misc. 

In a message dated 96-07-10 00:47:51 EDT, you write:

REF: NAOC Nat's

>Yes, someone is going :)

Yes, but who?

Paul

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:33:48 -0300
Subject: Re: Mailer Stupidity 

In a message dated 96-07-10 09:44:32 EDT, you write:

>Thanks Greg, 
>	your doing a very fine job. Thanks again for being there...
>
>Regards
>Fernando Proietto

Ditto.  I don't have the patience for stuff like that.  You're an asset to
this fine establishment!

Thanks

Paul

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:33:55 -0300
Subject: Re: Mid60's Big Olds Stuff 

In a message dated 96-07-10 20:12:07 EDT, you write:

>4) Left dual exhaust manifold, be sure and pull the different tranmission
>control rods. 

Uh, DIFFERENT control rods for the tranny???  NOBODY told me they were
different from a single exhaust to a dual system.  I got a '66 Starfire dual
manifold to put on my '67 98, NOW you're telling me the tranny control rods
need to be changed???  I couldn't find a '67 (or regular '65 or '66) with
duals, will '66 Starfire rods work???  That's if I can even find another
Starfire around here.  I got that manifold a year ago and the car has since
disappeared.

HELP!!!

Paul

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:36:03 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals 

In a message dated 96-07-10 11:02:38 EDT, you write:

>Personally, I think that they ought to raise it every year so that the 
>most recent year recognized is 25 years old.  Thus, each year they could 
>recognize a new model year and celebrate its officially becoming an 
>"antique" and welcoming it into the club.
>
>
>
>Dan Gulino

If you belong to NAOC, be prepared to be nominated for President in the next
election.

Paul
'67 (still waiting) 98 Holiday Coupe

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:36:09 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals 

In a message dated 96-07-10 15:57:52 EDT, you write:

> Also OCA allows "Modified" Oldsmobiles.

This is what really gets me.  NAOC has modified cars too!  And, they already
have allowed in '64 442s.  So where's the problem?  Maybe I'm the one that
can't be reached!

Paul

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:36:05 -0300
Subject: Re: floor mats 

In a message dated 96-07-10 18:57:58 EDT, you write:

>This is probably a long shot, but does anyone out there in the free world
>have a 
> set of blue NOS floor mats for my 70 442 frame off? Been looking everywhere
>for 
>a set, and so far no luck.

If you find any let me know, I've got a buddy that's been looking for a set
of these for years!  We found him a pair of rears at Somerset NJ Nats in '93,
but we're still lookin' for the fronts.

Paul

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:36:27 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals 

In a message dated 96-07-10 15:53:13 EDT, you write:

>If they don't start moving it up the membership will age itself out of a
>club.
>
>Bob Handren
>
>

It's already happenin'  They had an editorial in a few months back about
attracting younger members... without moving the cut off year.  Some people
just can't be reached.  I think that, at the age of 27 and owning a '67 98, I
am the exception rather than the rule.  There are so many older Oldses that I
would like to own, but the money just isn't here.  There's nothing in this
world that I would like to have out in that garage than a white "62 Starfire
convertible, but how the hell am I going to afford one?  I think that is the
situation with a lot of people my age, if they're fortunate enough to be in
the car hobby at all.  Plus all my friends (out side of the clubs) wonder why
I have such a big, "old man's" car.  They don't understand that was all I was
raised on.  I'm hangin' in there, but I don't for how much longer...

Paul

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:35:58 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals 

In a message dated 96-07-10 11:06:42 EDT, you write:

>Right, and the current system (at least the current cutoff year of 1964)
>doesn't strike me as making a whole lot of sense, if for no other reason
>than that I don't believe 1964 was one of the big changeover years, was
>it? Seems to me like that was an intermediate year in the typical GM
>3-year (or perhaps 4-year) cycle.

Well, seeing that they have an aversion to anything that's not full size
(they don't even like Toronados!), '64 can be considered a changeover year.
 '64 was the last year of the "square" run that started with the (hardly
square) '61s.  '65 started the "coke bottle" run that ran thru '68.  I think
a full size car is a full size car, but as they allow them in they have to
allow the A-bodies too.  They think A-body people are, well, ... unfriendly
is a good word.  I can't seem to convince them that my attitude toward their
cars doesn't change the minute I get behind the wheel of my Cutlass.  I like
ALL of their cars no matter WHAT I happen to be driving.  It's a shame 'cause
I have quite a few friends in this club, but I can't show my car at their
functions.  I'm welcome but the car isn't.  Go figure.

Paul
'67 98 Holiday Coupe
'72 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (my "darker" side)

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:36:01 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals 

In a message dated 96-07-10 17:40:52 EDT, you write:

> Hello bob, i am a member of naoc and i agree with you!!!! I own a 69'
>> 4-4-2 but also enjoy the older oldsmobiles, thus the membership, how-
>> ever time is not on their side and they need to re-think their
>> position. Perhap's i'll drop them a line concerning this, and 
>> that is a great idea celebrating a new model year every year!!!!

You promise to do that and I'll promise to do the same.

Paul

------------------------------

From: WMACHINES@aol.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 00:45:27 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds @ Norwalk 

Dink wrote (anybody going to Norwalk, whats the deal, race one day or two?  
swap?  show?)



HI ya Dink,  the Mondello meet is Sunday only.  It is both show and go.
He has the show which race King of the Hill if they want to.  And the regular

racing with pro and superpro and street.  The pig roast is at noon.  I'll be 
their with my ride.  I have a 72 W-30 that is saddle bronze in color.  I will

probably show my car.  Look for me, I have a Burgandy and Silver Suburban
with a roof rack and fiberglass running boards with Michigan plates.
 Saturdays
program is regular race program for Norwalk but many Olds cars enter to tune
their cars and to make sure they are ready for Sunday.  Gates open a 1:00PM
on Sat and they run to about 3:00AM.  And Sunday the gates open at 8:00AM
and run to about 4 to 5 oclock.  The swap area get bigger every year, and you
can
actually find good deals.  Again Sunday only at 8:00AM


see you their 
72 442 W-30 Race Rocket
(W MACHINES) MARK PRINCE
470 hp  523lbs torque

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 00:54:38 -0300
Subject: Re: Temperature Gauge.... 307/4Bbl 

>> I bought a flex fan
>>>today, and a spacer (gonna get rid of the clutch)
>>>
>>>I would keep the factory fan the clutch allows free spinning of fan when
>>>not needed, where as the flex fan turns all the time using more horse
>>>power the fastyer you turn it.  If the fan isn't working right replace the
>>>clutch unit they some times go bad.
>>
>the amount of HP the fan would take i think is almost nil...i think the
>whole concept of that clutch fan is flawed anyway...the heat from the engine
>must work its way to the clutch to make it engage...i think the best would
>be to run a restricter instead of a thermostat, and have electric fans run
>on a temp switch in the coolant flow...that way it would keep it at an
>optimal temp...

The clutch is activated by the heat in the *engine* compartment right behind
the radiator. If it gets too hot there, the fan engages. In fact, I can hear
my Toro's 7-blade clutch fan engage with a distinct roar when it gets hot
enough. If the engine compartment is cool enough, the clutch is disengaged,
as there must be sufficient airflow such that the fan is not needed (i.e.
highway driving).

One other thing; even when the engine compartment is hot enough to engage
the clutch, it will only spin up to a certain rpm (like the flex fan).

Well, a thermostat is a temperature-controlled restrictor, so you already
have your wish there. Thermostatically controlled lectric fans are also a
good bet, but you have to remember that the drag from the fan that you free
up by removing the engine-driven fan is replaced by the increased drag from
the alternator, now generating electricity to run the electric fans.

Six of one, half-dozen of another...

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
- - 1978 Electra Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 00:54:41 -0300
Subject: Guvn'r fixed; now, onto adjusting my 403's valvetrain 

The plastic governor gear for my '69 Toro's TH425 was a snap to replace;
they even included an installation "tool" with the gear (a 6d nail! works
great, though; use the head-end to drive out the roll pin). Just pull the
governor, punch out the roll pin with supplied tool,
yank/pull/break/gouge/drill out what remains of the old gear, clean up the
inner governor shaft while you're in there (the gear holds it in place; make
sure you remember how it was oriented when it came out!), hammer the new
gear in place (with a 1/4" punch on the inside of the gear, not on the gear
itself!), slowly and carefully drill a new hole for the roll pin (9/32", I
believe), drive in the new pin and peen over the ends- good as new! In fact,
the toughest part of the whole thing was getting the governor out and back
in again! Took all of 20 minutes, and my Toro now shifts for itself.

Degreed the cam on the 403 today (not too bad; my roller timing chain was
only *six degrees* retarded when installed straight up! Whatever you may
think of Joe Mondello and his tech manual, he is absolutely right about Olds
timing gear sets being incredibly inaccurate. DEGREE THAT CAM!), installed
it 2 degrees advanced, bolted on the heads, and went to install the pushrods
and rocker arms, when I encountered a problem (people who have rebuilt Olds
motors before now nod their heads knowingly...).

The rocker pedestals bottom out before I can get enough lifter preload, but
not by much. I'm assuming the valve job is making up some of the clearance
that comes with a .100" reduced base-circle camshaft. So hear I am looking
at these individual pedestals connected by that hefty metal strap, when it
occurs to me...

Can these individual pedestals be ground down on a valve-by-valve basis to
provide the proper .030-.050" lifter preload? The loosest pushrod has .020"
clearance between the rocker arm and valve stem, so the most I would have to
remove would be about .045". I know this changes the geometry, but it seems
that the rockers will still be near the center of the valve stem tip
throughout their travel (in fact, contact here may even be better after this
kind of adjustment).

The other option, of course, is to go with longer pushrods (+.050" or
+.100"), which sticks closer to the stock geometry. I'd like to not give JM
any more of my money, especially if there won't be any benefit.

(BTW, I am running rotators, so the valve stem wear should be evened out.)

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
- - 1978 Electra Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 00:54:36 -0300
Subject: Re: Need parts identified... 

At 05:22 PM 7/9/96 -0400, you wrote:
>To find out what engine the intake belongs to, just measure the width. The
350 intakes are 
>smaller than the 455's. Can someone measure there 455's and post it, to
help this guy out.

Olds small-blocks= 12"
Olds big-blocks= 14"
(measured across top of intake flange)

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
- - 1978 Electra Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 01:31:55 -0300
Subject: Re: RECALL! 

In a message dated 96-07-10 18:35:57 EDT, edison3@cpeq.com (Mike Frederick)
writes:

<< Folks,
 
 Not sure if I got this right but last night on the news I heard a major 
 GM recall for either 95-96 or 96-97 cars including the 88 and 98.  
 Something about engine fires and not trying to start your car with the 
 hood up. (?)  Interested parties may want to call their dealers.
 
 Not sure if Sparky's involved or not.    ;)
  >>

Sorry, I only burn up mid 60's classic cars of value!  (:

Sparky

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #233
********************************

