
oldsmobile-digest         Wednesday, 10 July 1996      Volume 01 : Number 232


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From: "Mailer" <Mailer.Central_Message_Center@inbox.ei.educ.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:46:45 -0300
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> How much is the demo tape?

Something you might consider (and I'm throwing this out to the general
population 'cause I don't know the finer points of _how_ to do it)
would be to convert the promo tape to a .WAV file or other audio format
that could be downloaded from Bryce's web page. It's not that long of a
tape, is it?

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473



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From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
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From: "Mailer" <Mailer.Central_Message_Center@inbox.ei.educ.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:51:10 -0300
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Michael Blennerhassett wrote:
> 
> Michael (the '57 one)

This is starting to sound like one of those sci-fi movies where everyone 
is a clone with the same name and a number attached to identify them.  
What are the Greg(g)s gonna do?

The 66 Toro and Mike-49  (or should that be Funk-49, James Gang fans?)


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649



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From: "Mailer" <Mailer.Central_Message_Center@inbox.ei.educ.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:51:11 -0300
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>Anyone going to the NAOC Nationals in Wheeling, WV this coming weekend? 
>
>Paul
>
I was wondering what NAOC stood for, I can't remember.  
          
          
          National Antique Oldsmobile Club?
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30  (and no, I don't consider them antiques!)



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From: "Mailer" <Mailer.Central_Message_Center@inbox.ei.educ.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:51:13 -0300
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Andrew C. Green wrote:
> 
> ...convert the promo tape to a .WAV file or other audio format that 
> could be downloaded from Bryce's web page.

You should be able to do it with any half-assed sound card.  My 
SoundBlaster Pro will allow me to suck stuff in.  You should be able to 
plug a tape deck up to the audio in and record with whatever WAV or DAT 
type software you've got.  Plenty of freeware converters to change it to 
VOC files or whatever.  Prolly should use 8-bit sampling at 11KHz rather 
than 16-bit at 22 or 40-something to keep the file size down.

It isn't an 8-track is it?   :o

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649



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From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
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From: "Mailer" <Mailer.Central_Message_Center@inbox.ei.educ.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:51:15 -0300
Subject: INBOX Message (See Below) 

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Well, I read the long instructions given by Joe Padavano about fitting a
4-row radiator into a space that previously held a 3-row unit, and I must
say that I didn't understand exactly what you were talking about, Joe.  So
I did what anyone would do in this situation, I printed the message.  Then
I went home, pulled the old radiator and tried to make the new one fit
again.  Nothing had changed, and the new one still didn't fit.
Close examination had shown why it wouldn't fit.  Hmmm... maybe it's time
to re-read that message.  Lo and behold!  It made perfect sense this time!
Joe's instructions were right on the money.

Today I plan to take both radiators to the shop where I bought the new one
and I hope to leave with either:

1) A new 4-row radiator that DOES NOT have a drain valve on the bottom side.
   Then I can modify the metal brackets as Joe described and make it fit.

OR

2) A new 3-row radiator that will drop into place without modification.

Thanks to Joe for the detailed instructions, and thanks to everyone else
that responded.
                                                                 _
                                                                 |\
Drew Senko                   Convertibles         .__====-_._____|_\______
senko@reston.ans.net             Rule!            [   ___  |-     |  ___  \
http://members.gnn.com/senko                      =\_//.\\_|______|_//.\\__)
'71 Cutlass Supreme convertible ______________________\_/____________\_/_____


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From: "Andrew A. Senko" <senko@reston.ans.net>
Subject: radiator replacement
To: oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca (olds)
Date: 	Tue, 9 Jul 1996 11:14:32 -0300
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From: "Mailer" <Mailer.Central_Message_Center@inbox.ei.educ.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:51:15 -0300
Subject: INBOX Message (See Below) 

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On another note. What is the best way to check U-joints? Car on jack stands? 

        OK, that'll work

Standard transmission in 1st? 

        With the E-brake off or trans in neutral with the E-brake on

How much play in the driveshaft is normal? 

        There will always be some gear backlash in the trans and diff.  What 
you want to look for is NO relative motion between the yokes on either side 
of the u-joint.  In other words, the roller bearings in the u-joint should 
have no play whatsoever.

If I get any play at all does that mean that something 
(Tranny,u-joint,rear-end) is messed up? Please advise.

        Play in the u-joints, yes.  Play in the gears, not necessarily.  As 
noted above, some backlash is normal.  I assume that the loud auditory 
feedback (ie, CLUNK) has caused you to question the u-joints.  Typically you 
will get plenty of warning before a u-joint fails catastrophically (assuming 
that you are much smarter than me and do something about this warning _before_ 
your driveshaft passes you in a turn :( ).


          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30
          
     Pat Clark
         69 442
               400/TH400
         clark@abu.dseg.ti.com
          
     The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.
          



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From: "Mailer" <Mailer.Central_Message_Center@inbox.ei.educ.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:55:05 -0300
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I have a 67 cutlass differential with a 10 bolt cover...it has 3.08 gears
:-(  that are shot. This diff is a limited slip.

I also have a diff that came out of a 67 cutlass (not the original rear nor
a limited slip) this one has a 12 bolt cover but is not a 12 bolt rear it
also has 3.08 gears. Is there any reason why I can't swap the gears and put
them in the rear that has the limited slip? I assume that since the good
diff. has a 10 bolt ring gear, it would fit. Any help would be appreciated
as I'm planning on swapping them this weekend.
>Dave Isho davei-2@mail.idt.net
- ---------------------------
>67 Cutlass CS Convertible



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From: "Mailer" <Mailer.Central_Message_Center@inbox.ei.educ.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:55:07 -0300
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On Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:53:51 -0400 Blaine Sanders 5483 wrote:

> From: Blaine Sanders 5483 <BLAINES@strata3d.com>
> Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:53:51 -0400
> Subject: Need parts identified...
> To: oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
> 
> Hey, anyone out there that can help me?
> 
> I have a set of heads and a 4-bbl manifold off an un-known Olds engine. 
> The  car was either a '70 or '74 Cutlass 4-door (I think).  I don't know the
> engine size, but I'm sure it was the original engine.  After scraping off
> some of the grease and grime, I discovered that the original color was a
> gold/bronze.  The Intake manifold has OLDSMOBILE cast into it in raised
> letters.  The only numbers I could find on the heads looked like: 
> CFB 411 828, but the light was dim and they were covered in oil. 
> There were no apparent numbers on the intake manifold, except for
> the firing order.  The valve covers had Oldsmobile embossed on them,
> and were also the same gold/bronze color.
> 
> If anyone can tell me what cid engine these came off of, I'd really
> appreciate it.  If those numbers are incorrect, tell me where to find the
> correct ones.  Thanks!
> 
> -BS
> 
Blaine:  I looked up 411828 in a full size Olds parts catalog (already a
dubious 
effort for an engine out of a Cutlass): it is assigned to fuel tank straps for
73-74 exc. 
 wagons.  Not too much help.  GM has 2 listings for Cylinder Head in its
catalog: 
the plain head and complete with valves, springs and rotators.  I don't know
which 
listing they used for production stamping numbers, but 411 sounds right, as 
411186 is listed as belonging to 72 455s.  Sorry, this isn't much help to you
... 

Graham Stewart
graham.stewart@utoronto.ca




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Date: 	Tue, 9 Jul 1996 14:37:59 -0300
From: Graham Stewart <graham.stewart@utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: Need parts identified...
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From: "Mailer" <Mailer.Central_Message_Center@inbox.ei.educ.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:55:07 -0300
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>Has anyone here put headers on a 75 Cutlass Supreme, H/O? What kind is the
>best and most affordable? I want to put some headers on my Hurst before I
>put the fenders back on. I plan to run a 2.5 Flowmaster dual exhaust system
>with an equalizer tube. I will probably go with a Flowmaster 2 chamber
>muffler for the extra rumble. I have a 3 chamber on my Z/28 and would like
>it a *little* louder. I have heard the 2 chamber on a chevelle and it
>sounded mean.

Jason, the fit will be real tight on the left side, especially with
the lower frame brace in place.  I think someone reported a few 
years ago that '75 was one of those years that was not included
in most header compatability catalogs.  Better pick up a new tranny
crossmember, too.  The one that should be in the car might only have
one hump for the exhaust, instead of two (at least mine did, but I'm
not sure on yours since the THM-350 uses a different crossmember than
the THM-400).

Wes Fujii


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In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 01 Jul 96 14:19:09 -0300."
             <96Jul1.141911adt.91800(1)@ccn.cs.dal.ca> 
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From: "Mailer" <Mailer.Central_Message_Center@inbox.ei.educ.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:55:08 -0300
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Been reading some of the postings re. trying to find parts numbers, 
etc... some of the confusion is due to the issue of CASTING numbers being 
mistaken for parts numbers. Even though you'd think they'd be the same, 
often they're not. I don't know if anyone - maybe our Mr. Witt, or Joe 
Mondello, or someone else - has a reliable list of casting numbers 
cross-referenced to part number, which is what it sounds like you need....

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada




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From: "Mailer" <Mailer.Central_Message_Center@inbox.ei.educ.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:56:52 -0300
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The recent issue of Car Craft has a www column featuring three sites.  
Suprise, suprise, the first is a Ch*vy (Nova) site.  The great thing is 
that in the Netscape 2.x frame on the left is "Bryceman's Olds Page, Olds 
Extravaganza"!  I would expect Bryce's page would be featured soon!

The other two pages were an AMX site and I think a Mopar site.  I'll post 
'em tomorrow.

David Brown          OCA #27978         (312) 702-9157
  Check out: www.442.com ("Oldsmobile Extravaganza")
Send Olds FAQ request to: dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu



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Been very very busy at work, this is our "crisis week", but I took a few
minutes
at lunch to peruse the Olds stuff, and came across this thread, to which I'd
like to add my 2 Federation Credits...

As far as the original question, whether or not there was a rear speaker for
the '67 ragtops:  I seem to recall hearing something about a covered speaker
in the top of the middle of the rear seat, installed on cars with the "reverb"
AM option.  I had certainly seen it in my Unlce's two '66 Poncho ragtops, and
I was under the impression (dunno where) that the Cutlass/442 ragtops could
get it too...

Now, here's what I did in *my* '67 CS ragtop for sounds:

The car did not have the original AM radio anyway (not that I was going for
points at a show), and a pair of ratty R*dio Sh*ck Minima 7 bookshelf speaks
taking up valuable real estate on the back seat.  It was spooky, the *only*
radio station the tuner could pick up was the '60s Oldies station -- I'm sure
this had to do with the fact that it's one of the more powerful broadcasters
in the Boston area -- but there was something "Stephen King-esque " about
the fact that the '67 only picked up tunes from that era.  But I digress...

I ended up putting 6" co-axials in the doors, and 3.5" co-axials in the
rear armrest-cum-conv. top piston covers.  All Pioneer, as well as the nice
Supertuner III w/detachable faceplate.  The unit is also CD-changer ready,
if'n I can convince the boss that I need to spend $400 on a changer ;)

It ain't stock, but it looks nice, and the speakers aren't too obvious.
And it sounds awesome -- I can clearly hear the music at 75 w/ the top down :)



Tim Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'88 Cadillac Brougham, a.k.a. 'Big Blue' -- Olds 307 Powered!!
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'


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From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Subject: '67 Cutlass/442 Conv. Sound (Was Re: Rear speaker)
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Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:56:58 -0300
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Hey man how's it going??? Haven't heard from you in a while. When are you
going to be back in town so we can have a beer or two?? I've been driving
the rag around a bit. I have a question if you don't mind:

My Cutlass differential has  a 10 bolt cover...it has 3.08 gears :-(  that
are shot. This diff is a limited slip.

I also have a diff that came out of the  67 cutlass parts car (not the
original rear nor a limited slip) this one has a 12 bolt cover but is not a
12 bolt rear it also has 3.08 gears. Is there any reason why I can't swap
the gears and put them in the rear that has the limited slip? I assume that
since the good diff. has a 10 bolt ring gear, it would fit.



<<----->>

July 9, 1996
12:48 pm

- ---------------------------
>Dave Isho --- davei-2@mail.idt.net
>67 Cutlass CS Convertible



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>Hey man how's it going??? Haven't heard from you in a while. When are you
>going to be back in town so we can have a beer or two?? I've been driving
>the rag around a bit. I have a question if you don't mind:
>
oops!!!

- ---------------------------
>Dave Isho --- davei-2@mail.idt.net
>67 Cutlass CS Convertible



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From: "Mailer" <Mailer.Central_Message_Center@inbox.ei.educ.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:59:25 -0300
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>    Check the settings of the TPS and idle mixture solenoid.  The idle mixture
>     solenoid is a tricky adjustment, you'd best have a manual for that.
>     TPS is pretty easy. 

Keep in mind that the TPS needs to be checked with a Digital volt meter that 
is accurate to a hundreth of a volt.  The setting should be around .46 volts, 
but don't quote me on that.

Having said that, I doubt the problem is in the TPS, as you would likely
be getting a code from the computer.  The engine should be allowed to
warm up though, so that some other failing sensors will report as well.

Rich


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From: "Mailer" <Mailer.Central_Message_Center@inbox.ei.educ.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:59:27 -0300
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Timothy A. Churchill wrote:
> 
> ... the "reverb" AM option.

BTW, there is a way to add this somewhat cheesy effect using currently 
available parts if anyone is interested.

> It was spooky, the *only* radio station the tuner could pick up was the 
> '60s Oldies station -- 

Do NOT attempt to adjust you set!  WE are in control!

> It ain't stock, but it looks nice, and the speakers aren't too obvious.
> And it sounds awesome 

It it sounds good, it is good.

The 66 Toro and the Control Voice


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649



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From: "Mailer" <Mailer.Central_Message_Center@inbox.ei.educ.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:56:54 -0300
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     Along the same lines I thought I might say for anyone interested that 
     the G-body cutlass's came with 2-row and 3-row radiators, and 
     upgrading from a 2 to 3 row is almost a drop in fit.  When the 2-row 
     went bad on my '79 Cutlass w/ 260 a few years ago I went down to get a 
     replacement.  The 3-row was only a few bucks more than the 2-row, and 
     the specs in the book showed it the same dimension, so I ordered it.  
     The only thing that needed to be done to make it fit (car had A/C too) 
     was to trim the rubber mounts (attached to the top radiator support) 
     that hold the top of the radiator.  The 3-row had bigger tanks.  The 
     rubber mounts for the 2-row were shaped something like this:
     
                  <-- nipple to hold the top part in.
    ___________/\_____________________
   / _____________________            \
  /_/ (rad top fits here) \____________\

     I just needed to cut part of it out with a hack saw and everything fit.

                  <-- nipple to hold the top part in.
    ___________/\_____________________
   / ________________________________ \
  /_/                     **removed**\_\

     I thought this might be worth mentioning in light of the current  
     discussion, perhaps a good item to add to the FAQ.

Tom L.

______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: radiator replacement
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    7/9/96 7:57 AM


     Well, I read the long instructions given by Joe Padavano about fitting 
     a 4-row radiator into a space that previously held a 3-row unit, and I 
     must 


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Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:59:28 -0300
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Mike Hall wrote:
> 
> (close to the "middle of the mitten" for you Michiganders).

You wouldn't want to know the Florida version of that.    :o

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649




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From: "Mailer" <Mailer.Central_Message_Center@inbox.ei.educ.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:59:29 -0300
Subject: INBOX Message (See Below) 

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Mike Hall wrote:

> The key, in my opinion, to long lasting longevity to a automatic 
> transmission is "DO NOT MANUALLY SHIFT GEARS". Most people tend to 
> forget the automatic in automatic transmission for some reason.

I'm confused, Mike.  Are for for it or a'gin it?  Or are you saying don't 
shift it unless you have a shift kit?

> If you must shift gears, the fix is simple, get a "MANUAL transmission.

Tell that to the Toro.

The (shiftless) 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649




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From: "Mailer" <Mailer.Central_Message_Center@inbox.ei.educ.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:59:31 -0300
Subject: INBOX Message (See Below) 

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Joanne Beausoleil wrote:
> 
> Your cable could be frayed.

Good point, Joanne.  I got an old V*lvo that I have to pull the clutch 
cable out every couple of months and drip cable-lube down though it so I 
don't have to use both feet on the clutch.

The 66 Toro and Mike
 
 
- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649



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From: "Mailer" <Mailer.Central_Message_Center@inbox.ei.educ.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:04:18 -0300
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Andrew,									        
    I need a demo for my tape deck.  If it is for sale, how much is it?        

                                                                               

 Art Fuller


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From: "Mailer" <Mailer.Central_Message_Center@inbox.ei.educ.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:04:20 -0300
Subject: INBOX Message (See Below) 

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In a message dated 96-07-07 23:31:17 EDT, you write:

<< You better forget putting it in a ggas car tho - the body is lonmgger, 
 which requires moving the driver's side motor mount forward.  You'd rip 
 your hair out trying ro relocate the frame pad unless you yanked the motor.
>>


Which cars are you talking about?  All Olds'?  Or just "A" bodies?  Or?




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From: BobH592058@aol.com
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------------------------------

From: "Mailer" <Mailer.Central_Message_Center@inbox.ei.educ.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:04:21 -0300
Subject: INBOX Message (See Below) 

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In a message dated 96-07-08 10:50:21 EDT, you write:

<<  I plan to 
           try Hooker next, as they seem to be the best built and 
           best-fitting units.
            >>
A buddy with a '66 GTO just installed a competition set of Hookers.  He had
major problems with clutch linkage interference.  Had to but and re-weld the
Z-arm.

The older (about 10 years) Olds headers on my '67 are very nicely designed
around the Z-arm.  Go figger.

Bob Handren


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From: BobH592058@aol.com
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To: oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: Re: Headers (was: 493 olds stroker..)
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------------------------------

From: "Mailer" <Mailer.Central_Message_Center@inbox.ei.educ.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:04:23 -0300
Subject: INBOX Message (See Below) 

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Darrell,

The 1966 Toronado I saw for sale is on highway 99 south of Medford Oregon,
by Talent Oregon.  Its on a used car lot -- full of old cars that have
been sitting for a long time.  Across the street is another lot that
seems to specialize in old trucks that have been sitting for a long
time.

I live in Corvallis, so I don't know where the Rogue Animal Hospital is.
I'm not sure if we're speaking of the same car.  However the term "dog"
seems an apt description of the car I saw... 

Do you by chance also own a Toronado and also live in Oregon?

Thanks, Paul

 > > Dear Paul:

 > > Is that the Toro dog back of
Rogue Animal Hospital used car lot? > > DTW
> 
> 


- -- 
Paul Bartlett
E-mail bartletp@osshe.edu


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Subject: Re: found 1966 Toronado for sale
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------------------------------

From: "Mailer" <Mailer.Central_Message_Center@inbox.ei.educ.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:04:24 -0300
Subject: INBOX Message (See Below) 

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A buddy with a '66 GTO just installed a competition set of Hookers.  He had 
major problems with clutch linkage interference.  Had to but and re-weld the 
Z-arm.
          
The older (about 10 years) Olds headers on my '67 are very nicely designed 
around the Z-arm.  Go figger.
          
Bob Handren
          
          I suspect the operative term is "competition", as these tend 
          to be larger diameter tubes than street headers.  Also, a 
          "racer" is assumed to be willing to put up with some 
          compromises/fabrication in the pursuit of the last elusive 
          pony.  I am interested in your comment about the 10 year old 
          headers fitting better, however, as this is similar to my 
          own experience.  The sets I bought in the 70s fit much 
          better than those I have bought within the last 10 years, 
          even when from the same vendor.  I guess the little ol' lady 
          lost the recipe.  Or maybe this has something to do with the 
          fact that the last big block Olds was built twenty years ago 
          (bow heads for a moment of silence... ).
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30 ...ALL big block powered!



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------------------------------

From: "Mailer" <Mailer.Central_Message_Center@inbox.ei.educ.ab.ca>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:10:45 -0300
Subject: INBOX Message (See Below) 

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>Andrew
>    I need a demo for my tape deck.  If it is for sale, how much is it?

???

Um, 'tweren't me; I posted a followup only. Unfortunately I've already
deleted the original post from whoever had the tape.

Be that as it may, I do happen to have an 8-track _recorder_, which was
still working the last time I tried it a couple years ago, so if anyone
wants to make 8-track recordings to play in their old cars, contact me
in email and we can probably arrange it.

>>> NOTE: You'll have to supply the 8-track cartridge for recording;
>>> I haven't got any spares. Your local Radio Shack might have 'em!

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473



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Date: 	Tue, 9 Jul 1996 16:33:43 -0300
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------------------------------

From: Ken <rottin@en.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 21:14:07 -0300
Subject: Re: Headers (was: 493 olds stroker..)

BobH592058@aol.com wrote:

> A buddy with a '66 GTO just installed a competition set of Hookers.  He had
> major problems with clutch linkage interference.  Had to but and re-weld the
> Z-arm.
> 
> The older (about 10 years) Olds headers on my '67 are very nicely designed
> around the Z-arm.  Go figger.
> 
> Bob Handren

  Welp, I see it like this.. in the 70's the hedders would fit say 64-72 Olds 
Cutlass/442.  In the 80's the header guys said, "Hey! If we tweek this pipe abit 
and turn that bend a hair these bad boys will KINDA fit in Olds cars all the way 
to 1977!  Who cares if the people buying them gotta spend hours cursing, we'll be 
making more cash!"  I mean come on, the instruction sheet for my hedders say they 
will work on Cutlass/442's spanning 13 years, manual or automatic!  I think I 
would have been better off buying the Hooker "Weld yer own" header kit.. hehe

Ken 
Cleveland, Oh
1967 442 Convertible 4-speed (with headers :P)

------------------------------

From: "Mailer" <Mailer.Central_Message_Center@inbox.ei.educ.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:55:10 -0300
Subject: INBOX Message (See Below) 

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          From the Oldsmobile Web site, in case you haven't seen this 
          yet:
          
          Oldsmobile Centennial will be held in Lansing, MI Aug 
          20-23,1997.  We would like to know if you are interested in 
          coming.  If you would like a form sent to you regarding 
          attending, contact Dave_Byers@Lansing-Online.com with name 
          and address and we will mail one out.  Olds forever!
          
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30



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------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 22:48:50 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: NAOC Nationals 

In a message dated 96-07-09 10:04:28 EDT, you write:

> 66 442
>          68 W-30
>          69 H/O
>          70 W-30  (and no, I don't consider them antiques!)

That's good because neither do they!

Paul

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 22:49:26 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals 

In a message dated 96-07-08 23:15:30 EDT, you write:

>I was wondering what NAOC stood for, I can't remember.  Where and
>when(exacly) is it?

Yes, as others have noted, NAOC stands for National Antique Oldsmobile Club.
 Their Nationals start tomorrow, the 10th, and run through Saturday the 13th.
 It's at Wheeling, West Virginia at the Oglebay Resort located off of Route
88.

Paul

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 22:47:28 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals 

In a message dated 96-07-09 09:47:58 EDT, you write:

>Need Another Olds Cutlass, of course. Jeez, do I have to explain 
>_everything_ around here?  :-)

Oh, the NAOC board of directors will love this.  I can hardly wait to tell
one them and watch their eyeballs roll up into head!

Paul

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 17:54:44 -0300
Subject: Re: Goofy EMail

Greg Beaulieu wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Mike Frederick wrote:
> > Anybody else getting goofy routing on their messages?
> >
> > > InBox Message Type: Error
> > > InBox Message Subject: Undeliverable message
> > > InBox Message Text Follows:
> > > Message not delivered to 'Bev Facey Message Centre' (No routing path
> > > found to Message Center)
> >
> > What the hell is this?
> 
> Working on it... these just started appearing. Sorry for the inconvenience.
> 
> Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

Greg:

I kinda like it. It makes me feel like Uncle Sam the postman is here 
electronically.  Of course I use the same FILE 13 system for this as 
Uncle Sam's trash mail.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

- -- 
SLTG

------------------------------

From: Mark Samaniego <marks@IntNet.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:08:03 -0300
Subject: Re: Re: Temperature Gauge.... 307/4Bbl

>From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
>Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 18:38:54 -0300
>Subject: Re: Temperature Gauge.... 307/4Bbl

>> Hello, All... I just purchased a cheepie Sun mechanical water
>> temperature gauge, and was wondering where I should install the sending
>> unit. It says I can't use a "T" connector,

> Nope; you need to immerse the sending unit or switch right in the coolant
> flow, and a T fitting won't let you do that. Wish someone had told the
> Chicago Tribune syndicated "Motormouth" columnist that a couple of weeks
> ago, before he told three million folks that you could do that.  :-(

Yea, I read it needs a constant stream of coolant to be accurate. How 
accurate are these $15.00 gauges? :\

>>and I don't want to disturb
>>the computer's signal.

>Nope.

>>It's a 1986 Olds 307/4Bbl. It's been pinging a
>>lot, and I can't seem to get it to stop.

> Just curious: what octane of fuel are you putting in? I used 89 routinely
> in my '82, but _one_ tankful of 87 put in by someone who borrowed the car
> gave me a lot of knocking until it was all gone...

I never run less than 89. I ran 87 a few time (long ago) and it was much 
worse. I have had it timed about 3 times, with no improvement. I guess *I* 
need to hook up the blinker and see for myself.

>>I see three sending units in the front of
>>the intake manifold, I assume the one in the very front is the oil
>>pressure sender, due to it's small neck circumference.

> Well... You have idiot lights, right? For the single-wire sending units,
> you can turn on the ignition and test to see which is which. The oil
> pressure warning will be on, but will go _off_ as soon as you unplug
> the wire from the sending unit (actually it's just a switch which is
> grounding that circuit when the engine's not running), but come on again
> when you ground the lead against the block. Find the temperature warning
> switch, the one you should be looking for, the same way by grounding its
> lead on the engine block to see whether the TEMP warning light goes on.

Well, out of the three, two have two wires. I dont think the front one is 
the temp sensor, like I said, it's diameter where it enters the engine 
(about 3/8s) is too small, it must be the oil pressure sensor. No one on 
this list has ever installed a mechanical temp gauge in an Olds 307?  :(
The idiot light isn't triggered by the computer? One sensor for the 'puter, 
and one for the idiot light?
Time to search for another sensor!

> Don't mess with any sending unit having a twisted-pair (i.e. more than  > 
> one wire attached; those are computer sensors.

> Once you've found the temp sender switch, replace it with your Sun gauge
> sender. The TEMP light won't work anymore (although the bulb in the dash
> will come on during bulb proveout when you crank the starter), but you've
> got a gauge in there now, which is better.

Mark S.
marks@intnet.net

- -- 
** Lost In Cyberspace, Wallowing In Technology **

------------------------------

From: jrjet@whidbey.net (Dot & Tim McChesney)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:30:59 -0300
Subject: Re: INBOX Message (See Below) 

What the heck is going on!!!!?  Is everyone recieving these INBOX messages?
I have downloaded about 250 of these in the last 4 hours!  Dot McChesney

------------------------------

From: jrjet@whidbey.net (Dot & Tim McChesney)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:32:05 -0300
Subject: what the heck is this??? INBOX Message (See Below) 

What the heck is going on!!!!?  Is everyone recieving these INBOX messages?
I have downloaded about 250 of these in the last 4 hours!  Dot McChesney

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:51:49 -0300
Subject: Re: Temperature Gauge.... 307/4Bbl 

At 22:39 7.7.96 -0300, you wrote:
>mark wrote.
> I bought a flex fan
>>today, and a spacer (gonna get rid of the clutch)
>>
>>I would keep the factory fan the clutch allows free spinning of fan when
>>not needed, where as the flex fan turns all the time using more horse
>>power the fastyer you turn it.  If the fan isn't working right replace the
>>clutch unit they some times go bad.
>

the amount of HP the fan would take i think is almost nil...i think the
whole concept of that clutch fan is flawed anyway...the heat from the engine
must work its way to the clutch to make it engage...i think the best would
be to run a restricter instead of a thermostat, and have electric fans run
on a temp switch in the coolant flow...that way it would keep it at an
optimal temp...
                        zack

>Tim McChesney
>71 cutlass convertable
>74 cutlass supreme
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 23:51:47 -0300
Subject: Re: Rear speaker..  

At 22:10 7.7.96 -0300, you wrote:
>In a message dated 96-07-05 21:33:42 EDT, you write:
>
><<  And don't buy into 
> that garbage about underpowering speakers and how you MUST have a huge 
> power amp (spelled $$$$).  >>
> Mike:
>
>Sure been there, done that.  Louder does not mean better, for sure.  We own
>two Jeep Cherokees (the '87 is almost GM it has so many GM pieces).  I have a
>$$ Pioneer system in the '87 including supposedly "matched" Pioneer speakers.
> Not bad.  It is the version for "trucks" by the way.
>
snip

>The speaker wires for the factory system are thin as hair compared to the
>_cables_ they try to sell in the stores.  Those things look like I could
>connect the house heat pump through them.  Therefore I suspect that speakers
>seldom, if ever in home/auto use, need such large conductors.
>

speaking of WAY too much power in a sound system...when i was in college
there was an 88 Jeep Cherokee...the guy had sooo much bass in it and it was
so loud that it had sparated most of the welds in the body...ahe had had
them welded about 3 times...poor guy spent about $3000 on his system...way
too much
                        zack

>Right?
>
>Bob
>
>

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 00:09:48 -0300
Subject: Re: Goofy EMail 

At 22:27 7.9.96 -0300, you wrote:
>Anybody else getting goofy routing on their messages?
>
>> InBox Message Type: Error
>> InBox Message Subject: Undeliverable message
>> InBox Message Text Follows:
>> Message not delivered to 'Bev Facey Message Centre' (No routing path
>> found to Message Center)
>
>What the hell is this?
>

if i knew...i would find it and kill it...
                        zack

>The 66 Toro and Mike
>
>
>-- 
>Michael R. Frederick, CEO
>Edison3, Incorporated
>Tampa, Florida
>(813) 210-8649
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 20:31:53 -0300
Subject: Re: what the heck is this??? INBOX Message (See Below)

Dot & Tim McChesney wrote:
> 
> What the heck is going on!!!!?  Is everyone recieving these INBOX messages?
> I have downloaded about 250 of these in the last 4 hours!  Dot McChesney

Dot:

You can't have downloaded all of those, I did.  There aren't enough left 
for anyone else!

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama
- -- 
SLTG

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 01:41:54 -0300
Subject: heads, errors, misc.

> I have a set of heads and a 4-bbl manifold off an un-known Olds engine.
> The  car was either a '70 or '74 Cutlass 4-door (I think).  I don't know the
> some of the grease and grime, I discovered that the original color was a
> gold/bronze.  The Intake manifold has OLDSMOBILE cast into it in raised
> letters.  The only numbers I could find on the heads looked like:
> CFB 411 828, but the light was dim and they were covered in oil.

411929 are #8 heads, the 8 is a large number on the lower left corner of the
head, about an inch tall, just over the left freeze plug. Smogger 350 heads,
'73-76, good mainly for bumping the compression of a 403 to a repectable
level. Pretty useless for any sb engine under 400 cid, unless 8:1 compression
is what you *want*. There is no 411828, kinda hard to read w/ all that grime &
such, WD-40 or brake-clean does wonders, with a wire brush...

> There were no apparent numbers on the intake manifold, except for
> the firing order.

Oh, they're there, you just gotta look... probably there's a6-digit numer on a
rear runner, and a larger number in the depression on the passenger side behind
the front water passage, a number less that 16 I'd guess... around 9 or 10. And
an EGR passage on the LH side of the intake.

> Here is some more info (for that missing/overlooked/stuff not there  stuff)
> Some more engine info:
> Year    Disp.     Comp.    Bore    Stroke     HP        Torque     Induction
> 65      400   10.25 to 1   4.00     3.98   345 @ 4800  440 @ 3200    4 bbl
> 66-69   400    10.5 to 1   4.00     3.98   350 @ 4800  440 @ 3600    4 bbl

Ooooops! That early 400 engine went from '65 to '67, not thru '69!

> 66      400    10.5 to 1   4.00     3.98   360 @ 5200  440 @ 3600   Tri-Power
> 66-67   425    10.5 to 1   4.13     3.97   385 @ 4800  475 @ 3200    4 bbl
> 68-69   400    10.5 to 1   4.00     3.98   360 @ 5400  440 @ 3600    4 bbl

Ooooops again! the '68-9 400 engine does not have a 4.000 bore; with the longer
stroke, the bore was reduced to 3.870", a rather weird number.

> There was an experimental engine based on the W-43, coded OW-43.  It was
> designed for road racing applications.  It had the same basic configuration
> as the W-43, but the materials were different.  The block was cast from
> Reynolds-356 alloy and fitted with pressed in dry steel cylinder liners for
> the forged 12.2 to 1 pistons.  It used billet steel connecting rods and a
> machined forged steel crank.

I just love that word "billet"! It means "solid chunk" if I am not mistaken.
Therefore, are not *all* Olds rods "billet" steel, or does forging them no
longer make it a "billet" of steel? And gee whiz, a *machined* crank! WOW!
that's gotta be WAY better than those cast cransk that they just tossed in w/o
machining them at all... Heh. Hey, don't take this personally, poster, I LOVE
having this kind of info spread about... I also love playing with words, and
one of the most overused in the last few years is..... "billet"
- -Chris-

> Small Block
> CID    Year     Casting #     ID code
> 330   64-67     381917         A

The only known small block with a LETTER casting ID?

>      On another note, I got to go out to the pull-n-save junkyard today.  I
>      didn't find anything I was looking for, but I did see several smogger
>      350's, an older 350 (no egr) with #5 heads and a 4bbl, and a big block

might wanna grab that carb & its CHOKE COIL...

>      (dunno the CID) in an old (also pre-egr) 98 w/ C heads and a 2-bbl.

could have that FORGED crank!

> Is a Pontiac 455 the same as an Olds 455?  A few months ago, I found a

Sheesh... No, they are in almost every way different. They share the same
trans-engine bolt pattern, so...

> Another guy told me that the Pontiac TH400
> was different than the Olds, and wouldn't bolt up anyway.

WRONG! different in code on tag, subtle internal diff's undetectable to most of
us; for all practical purposes, interchangeable with Olds. HOWEVER, most big
cars have the long-shaft TH400, which does not just bolt right into a Cutlass
body car. -Chris-

> What late '60 - '70's cars came with Positraction rear-ends that will
> bolt up to my '72 Cutlass Supreme without modifications?  I'm sure there's
> got to be a whole slew of them, but I don't have any idea where to begin
> looking.  I'm tired of burning up *a* tire every time I hit it off the line.
> - -BS

Uh, 'most any GM intermediate, A-body, '64-72 oughta interchange easily.
Cutlass, Skylark, GTO, LeMans, Chevelle, etc.

> I have a 69 air condition dash I may be persuaded to part with.

See, there's dozens of them around!

> What I do is this. Get an old distributor and take the shaft out of it. =
> Grind the gear teeth (only)  off the bottom then grind down the other =
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> end to fit a drill. Once the engine is in place install this tool in =
> your drill then insert in the distributor hole. Spin your tool until you =

Sheesh, what a lot of trouble for that task. Get a Japan Cheapo 5/16" 6-point
socket. Fasten it securely to an extension or 1/4" round rod. I mean weld or
braze or tape so that it cannot fall off into the engine. Chuck same in your
drill, reversible!, and turn it CCW for a few minutes with oil in the pan, as
Mr. Urban suggests...

> all rockers are firm to the push. At this point you can acuratley adjust =
> your lifter preload.

Bxxxxt! Oh, icorrect response, I'm sorry!  having the lifters full of oil is
absolutely independent of setting lifter preload. A good idea before starting
the engine, but lifter preload has nothing to do with lifters full of oil...
- -Chris-

> oil pan to clear the studs (BTW, a note to JM; hire a professional =
> editor
> for your next edition of that manual. The excellent information you do
> provide is muddled by your (dis)organization of material, your sentence
> structure (please, at least one noun and one verb in each sentence), and
> your grammar.)
> I agree completely.  -Chris Urban-

Hear, hear! -Chris-

> Once that Q is answered, then where do the other two plugs go? Is one of
> these (the 19/32" perhaps) the oil pump pressure spring retaining cup? =
> The
> Dr. Robert Barry

I think the hole is 5/8, so use the 21/32? The other is extra, def. NOT for oil
pump use; you don't HAVE to use all parts provided... Oh, that screw in plug,
at the rear of the LH oil gallery... should have a 0.040" hole, for lubing the
dist'r drive. Most if not all replacement kits have solid plugs, no hole.
- -Chris-

> Watch it, Witt - we've been monitoring you over here on the Toro mini list.
> Before you know it, you'll have a fleet of 5000 lb fwd monsters bearing-down
> on you!!! :)
> - -Gregg, the '67 Toro guy

ooooh, I'm shaking in my venturis!

> >     (dunno the CID) in an old (also pre-egr) 98 w/ C heads and a 2-bbl.
> Likely a '68-'69 motor, also likely low-compression.

Yeah, but back then, "low compression" meant 9.0:1! -Chris-

> Yeah, sell them to Dick Miller Racing; Chris W., what's the going price on
> these at the moment? Or have you flooded the market...?

I got $150/pr for bare castings, and yes, he said something about needing to
'quit stockpiling this stuff" so I guess I flooded the maket hereabouts. Dang,
still have a dozen pair to sell off! Mostly big-valves now. -Chris-
   Oh, FINALLY got his check today... off to the family acct., leaving the COPs
fund [Classic Olds Parts] dry again after today's Padnos run...

> Please change my "subscribe" to "subscribe digest"

If only we could do that for ya! Gotta send commands to the list *server* not
the list... -Chris-

> Anyone going to the NAOC Nationals in Wheeling, WV this coming weekend?
> Paul

Yes, someone is going :)

> Another thing.  People trying to unload a crappy  car with a 455 will tell
> you anything.

See the list o' definitions- "runs good", etc.

> I was going to use the old oil pump driveshaft driven by a drill, connected
> to the new driveshaft (by two 5/16" allen-headed socket screws, joined by a

Bzzzzzt! You have to spin the pumo *CCW* which might unscrew a coupler and drop
stuff into the engine! Welded assemblies are by far the best! I can provide one
for like $5... -Chris-

> hex coupler). I noticed that unlike the SB Ch*vy, there are no oil passages
> in the Olds distributor, so the body is not necessary to spin the oil pump
> and get pressure.

Huh? what kinda drunken dumb*** designed THAT? -Chris-

> My question is whether I have to fill or prime the pump *before* I install
> it. Will it be able to suck the oil from the pan without any prior preparation

NO. The pump is actually submerged in oil in the sump, it will flow in of its
own accord. You should however pre-lube the motor before starting. Socket,
extension, all that CCW turning... -Chris-

> I put the lifters in a cup of oil and use a pushrod to press the plunger
> down until no more air bubbles come out. That pretty much fills them up, and
> gives the oiling system a head-start.

Damn lotta work that you can do easier by just pre-lubing as specified...
- -Chris-

> beginner's project. Do you mean .60" or .060" clearance? Do I really need
> over a half-inch of clearance between the rods and the tray? I hope my
> bottom end doesn't move around *that* much!

I'm sure Mr. Urban meant 0.060"... stuff happens, ya know... sixty thou...

> So I call a tranny shop down the street from my new house; it's the kind of
> place that has been in business in this same location for about 35 years. I
> ask if they have a unit lying about; sorry, they say, no governors around,
> but they *do* have a plastic gear service piece, for all of $5.00!  :)

Que una ganga! -Chris-

> 65 OLDS 330 CU IN ENGINE, needs rebuild, forged crank, $250; 59 VW engine,

Oh, that rare *forged* 330 crank! [they were all forged pre-'68!] -Chris-

> 68 OLDS 442 PARTS, cut-out bumper, tach & gauges, radiator support, Hurst
> Olds exhaust manifolds, NOS hood chrome, grille,
> headlight housings, taillight lens. (914) 472-4977=20

H/O xst manifolds are different from ordinary '68 442 manifolds? Yeah, Okay!

> 72 Supreme, fresh cut 1010 crank & bearings, for
>
> works gd, $50 both; Olds 425 J heads, 500 mi on rebuild. (516) 254-6824=20

425 with J heads, what a waste of a good motor! Choke it off with J
heads...-Chris-


- --67 330 engine--
> I was just getting ready to trash one this week...havn't checked the casting
> ID, will do that today...What's your question about it?
> Dave Isho (67 Cutlass CS Conv.)

What's the casting number, and, can you measure the lifter bank angle, tell if
lifter bores are parallel to cylinders [perpendicular to deck] or off by 6
degrees or so? That's the big question.
  Oh, where are you located? -Chris-

> for you Michiganders).
               ^^^^^^^
Quack, quack!  :)

> Toronado, speed is critical to both cars but marketing defines that one
> is more, dare I say, "civilized" than the other, maybe a more PC term

Hey, calling a _performance_ Olds more "civilized" than a Toro can get you in
big trouble around here, mister! :)

> Oh, the rare TWO-DOOR Toronado!  And with the optional FRONT-WHEEL drive!
> Wow!  Somebody better jump on this one.  Wonder if it has the manual
> transmission and that 3 barrel carb?      ;)

*LOL* :) -Chris-
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: "Darrell T. Weinman, M.D." <bigd@wave.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 15:54:49 -0300
Subject: Re: '71 442 taillight bezels

Dear Robert:

Already called them.  Discontinued.

Thanks!

DTW

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 20:51:32 -0300
Subject: Re: 66 98 Stumpers

Robert Lawrence wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > 4) The frame is old now and flexes when going over bumps in the road. Any
> > ideas, anybody ever tried to fix such a problem?
> 
> Convertibles tend to flex more than hardtops.  My 70 (and I suspect)
> your 66) has a heavy duty frame.  I'm just speculating, so someone tell
> me if I'm out of line, but I doubt that the problem is the age of your
> frame, unless it is really rusted out.
> 
> 
> Robert Lawrence  

I would guess that the door problem is hinges & bushings.  
Convertibles do flex much more than closed cars.  Sloppy frames are 
serious.  With the car up on a rack you would easily notice the rust 
causing this.  Rust this bad may call for a new car.  

Open the doors & see if there isn't slop movement when you try to raise 
the door up & down.  Movement would indicate typical worn bushings or 
hinges.  Bushings can be purchased at a GM dealer for about 50 cents 
apiece.  If the hinge pin is worn through the bushing & into the hinge, 
an oversize bushing can be installed when the hinge pin hole has been 
drilled out properly for the oversize bushing.  These can be purchased 
at your GM dealer at nominal cost too.

- -- 
SLTG

------------------------------

From: Bob Valentine <ravalent@liii.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 02:40:31 -0300
Subject: Re: Alternator Upgrade Q

On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Jason Barnes wrote:

>   Can anyone tell me the correct way to wire an internally regulated
> alternator in place of the external type on my 71 CS convertible (daily driver)?.
> Ive read that this type needs the dash lamp somewhere in the circuit
> to prevent a back charge somehow. ?

You missed what I posted a month or so ago.  Here goes again:

- - - - - -
Converting externally regulated GM alternators (pre-'71) to internally
regulated post-71 alternators is a relativly easy affair.   This is also a 
necessasary conversion before/during a HEI or other electronic igniton
conversion.    Also nice if you get stuck in the middle of nowhere 
and need parts --  10/12SI units are much more common these days...

Once you've done it, you'll never drive another car with a vibratior 
regulator and points....

Some BACKGROUND info:

GM Internally regulated units are broken down into 2 models for our purposes, 
the 10SI and the 12SI.  Both can be used interchangably in most cases,
and both use identical hookups.

The 10SI is the same physical size as your old alternator.   It looks rather 
simular, except the back is more closed, and the two connectors are
horizontal instead of vertical.  This unit usually has a steel fan.
They are rated from 42 amps to 63 amps as a stock unit.  The  
rating is stamped on the case below the mounting ear.

The 12SI is a higher output version found on many mid-80's cars.  It is 
easily identifable by its slightly larger case, and a PLASTIC fan.   This 
unit will usually bolt in wherever a 10SI will fit.   This does not look 
as close to your old alternator, but it does put out 85 amps at full load
and has a increased output at idle.   Note that many of these units had 
*METRIC* mounting holes.   Also note that the 12SI's from GM FWD cars look
the same, but will not mount as well.   Look under the hood of just about
any 82-87 GM with a Olds 307 and you'll find one of these.

If you want a *REAL* wiring diagram, look up one for like a '76 Cutlass.  


HOOKUPS:

    Either alternator will bolt in place of your existing unit.  You may need 
to "turn" the case to get the 2 wire connector to be accessable on your 
specific engine.

    Assuming you pull the alternator from a junk car, make sure to cut the 
two prong connector for the regulator from the harness.  Otherwise, pick    
up a connector at the auto parts store.  Sometimes you have to buy a "harness
extender" to get it.

EASY WAY:    
    
    The battery cable goes to the BAT post on the new alternator.

    Terminal #1 goes to a switched 12-volt source.   A cheap-n-dirty way
    to accompish this AND to retain operation of the charge light is to 
    run a wire from the #1 terminal of the new alternator to the #4 position 
    of the harness connector on the old external regulator.  
    
    MAKE SURE TO DISCONNECT THE REGULATOR!

    Terminal #2 goes to the battery.  Easiest hookup is to jump it directly
    to the BAT terminal of the alternator.

    This is the easy-but-ugly way to do the conversion.


FANCY WAY:

    OK, you said you wanted to retain the external regulator look.  No prob!

    First, remove the old (or use a spare for practice) regulator from the 
    car.  Remove the cover plate.   Here's your goal:

       Jumper terminal F and terminal 3 together
       Jumper terminal 2 and terminal 4 toegther

ARTWORK:
                            TOP (DOWN) VIEW
                     ----------------------------
                     |                          |
                     |                          |
                     |  10 ga. jumper           |
                     |  -------------           |
                     |  |           |           |
                     |_ F ___ 2 ___ 3 ___ 4 ____|
        Latch  ---->    *     *     *     *
                              |___________|
                              10 ga. jumper

    1. Make sure they do not ground anywhere, or are connected in any way.  
    2. Make sure to cut the resistors off the back of the regulator!
    3. Check and double check that these are the only connections made!

ON THE ALTERNATOR:

    Step 1:   Remove the wires from the plug connector on the 10/12SI unit.
              This can be done with a pin or small screwdriver to relase
              the tab that hold the connectors in the plastic shell.  If you
              want to cheat, just cut the wires off the old connector and 
              replace "splice" for "insert" in steps 2 and 3 below.   ;^)

    Step 2:   Remove the wire from the old alternator connector that went to 
              the F terminal.  It should (usually?) be BLUE or GREEN.  Insert
              this wire in the new connector so it connects to the #2
              terminal of the new alternator.

    Step 3:   Repeat step 2 for the other wire; the wire for the old R 
              terminal goes to the #1 terminal on the 10/12SI unit.  This 
              is usually a WHITE wire.
              
    You may find that the old terminals are corroded or burned.  Now's a darn
    good time to replace them.

CHECKOUT:

    Fire up the car.   The alternator should start charging immediately if
    you've hooked up everything correctly.   If it does not, here's my
    checklist, in order:

    1.   Connector on the new alternator is secure *AND* making good contact.
    If you used your old terminals then this is probably the bad point.

    2.   Check for +12 volts at terminal #2 and BAT with the ignition OFF.  

    3.   Check that the generator light works.

    4.   Check for +12 at both terminals on the harness with the harness
    disconnected from the regulator.

    5.   Email me and I'll try and help.

NOTES:

    I've done this swap several times.  I didn't come up with the "fancy" way
until after I had *WAY* to much time on my hands and had nothing else to 
do...  The first way works fine and I use it on my beater cars.  The second 
method works nice for a non-100-point resto vehicle.  Heck, it's fooled more
than a few guys around here.

DISCLAIMER:

    I have never done this swap on a car with factory guages (amp or volt),
but I can't really see any reason *WHY* that would present a problem.  You
might want to also consider putting in a heavier wire from the alternator to 
the battery if you're going to run a 12SI.  I cooked my 10ga wire at one
point.   They make conversions to convert a 12SI to a 120 amp alternator 
if you *REALLY* need the juice.   Of course, just be careful when doing *ANY*
kind of wiring work in your car.  Use common sense; don't splice the BAT   
wire with lousy crimp connectors - SOLDER THEM!   Dirty connections make 
heat - CLEAN THEM.   I've seen really nice cars trashed with bad wiring work,
or worse - wiring fires.   <Steping off soapbox now>

OTHER:

    Keep in mind I'm the same guy does electronic ignition conversions by 
using the points to trigger a Mopar spark box.   Sacrilidge?  ;^>    Next
thing to figure out is how to make the new CS-series GM alternators work
on these old cars.   

    Anyone need a schematic for the GM hot-starter-solenoid fix?   


More (really bad) Ascii Art:
                                   (WHITE wire)
           |------------------- To R terminal of old alternator harness
           |    |-------------- To F terminal of old alternator harness
      - - -|- - |- - -             (BLUE or GREEN wire)
    -      *    *      -
  -        1    2        -      Back view of 10/12SI
 -   *                    -
  -   BAT --------------------- Same connection as old alternator
    -                   -
      - - - - - - - - -


- --> Robert Valentine
- --> ravalent@liii.com
- --> '71 Olds Cutlass Convertible 350/TH400/2.78 Posi (work in progress)
- --> '88 Plymouth Grand Fury 318/TF904/2.94 Posi (ex highway patrol car)

Hey, if someone wants to put this on a web page, they're more than welcome.

------------------------------

From: Bob Valentine <ravalent@liii.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 02:41:28 -0300
Subject: Re: Goofy EMail

On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Mike Frederick wrote:

> Anybody else getting goofy routing on their messages?
> 
> > InBox Message Type: Error
> > InBox Message Subject: Undeliverable message
> > InBox Message Text Follows:
> > Message not delivered to 'Bev Facey Message Centre' (No routing path
> > found to Message Center)

> What the hell is this?

    And why are there 200 or so in my inbox?

> Michael R. Frederick, CEO

                     -->   Bob Valentine  <--  
                    --> ravalent@liii.com  <--
        "Experience varies directly with equipment ruined"

------------------------------

From: Bob Valentine <ravalent@liii.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 02:48:10 -0300
Subject: Re: 66 98 Stumpers

On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Lloyd Culp wrote:

> > > 4) The frame is old now and flexes when going over bumps in the road. Any
> > > ideas, anybody ever tried to fix such a problem?

    Yep, body-off resto thing and welded new metal into where the mounts 
were supposed to be.  Funny, they looked fine with the body on the frame.

    Has anyone else here had experience with new body bushings?  I bought 
a set from Year One when I put it together.  Less than one year later 
they're starting to rot/crack.    I *DON'T* savor the thought of doing 
this job again....

                     -->   Bob Valentine  <--  
                    --> ravalent@liii.com  <--  
            "Hard Acceleration Saves Costly Aggravation"

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 03:40:01 -0300
Subject: 4.3 V6 

ok...i have made a decision concerning the bravada pickup...i am going to
stick with the V6 and am looking for a way to get more power out of it,
other than putting in a turbocharger...does anyone know of a way to do this?
i am probably going to have it bored .030 over...and have an edelbrock
intake on it....i am also going to put a larger exhaust on it...are there
any places that sell a cam for this engine...or are there any other things i
can do to get more power...i am waiting to put a 350 for at least a couple
of years...i'm planning on keeping it for a LOOONG time
                        zack

------------------------------

From: jrjet@whidbey.net (Dot & Tim McChesney)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 04:17:08 -0300
Subject: Re: what the heck is this??? INBOX Message (See Below) 

>Dot & Tim McChesney wrote:
>>
>> What the heck is going on!!!!?  Is everyone recieving these INBOX messages?
>> I have downloaded about 250 of these in the last 4 hours!  Dot McChesney
>
>Dot:
>
>You can't have downloaded all of those, I did.  There aren't enough left
>for anyone else!
>
>Bill Culp
>Decatur, Alabama
>--
>SLTG


Bill --
        Gee, since you seem to have started a collection -- I could send
you all mine too..... <evil grin>   Gald to have gotten this solved --
THANKS Greg!
Dot (one happy camper in her FREE 74 Cutlass Supreme!)

------------------------------

From: "Dal Allan" <dal_allan@mcimail.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 05:20:35 -0300
Subject: posi_from_wagon 

A question for all of you who were so knowledgable about swapping rear ends. 

Is a hub-hub swap from a Chevelle wagon w/posi into a 67 Cutlass convertible 
feasible? 

I know the track will be wider but that shouldn't be a big deal. The front 
is already wider because the drums were replaced by discs off a 71 Skylark. 

I've got a mechanic who claims all the wagons, Vista Cruiser included, had 
different mounting for the control arms to the other models. 

Nobody on this list has ever mentioned a difference and if the local pull-
your-own yard still has the wagon on Friday and if it will work...

The rear brakes on wagons have 2 1/2" shoes vs 2" for other models so 
braking would benefit as well with such a swap. The wagon actually has more 
appeal than from another model for that reason. 

Thanks

Dal

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:14:15 -0300
Subject: Mailer Stupidity

It seems as though we've finally gotten past the problems of yesterday 
with one user's bounced emails being redirected to the list instead of 
just me (he said hesitatingly). For whatever reason this has happened a 
couple of times now apparently due to poorly configured mailers on the 
other end. I thought that majordomo here would trap these before they got 
to the list but apparently not. I happened to be online when it started 
and found the offending account, deleted it, and sent a plea to the 
originating site. Otherwise these things feed on themselves and grow out 
of control very quickly. Still no response from the site but hopefully 
it's over. Sorry for the trouble... if it's any consolation, my problems 
were a lot worse since I get everyone's bounces, including all the ones 
from people whose inboxes got filled up by this nonsense!

Nervously awaiting new bounces...

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:54:07 -0300
Subject: I'm still alive 

Well, all.  I finally logged on again, it's been a while.  Between work and
school I've been one busy puppy!  (Add Racing and beer drinking in there,
and it leaves no time at all!!!)  I about died seeing 600 messages on
here!!!  (Especially all those INBOX things!!??)  

Had an interesting weekend.  First, I smoked a Roadrunner in the GS.
Nothing new.  Then I got BEAT!!!   Ouch.  By a Bowtie!  A Pickup, of all
things!!!  Of course, it took the guy a blown 400 with open headers to give
my box-stock 455 a run, but he still beat me.  Most of it was due to my
smokeshow at the start (you know, the one I couldn't hear because of some
bowtie's open exhaust!?!)  Hell, I couldn't even hear if the GS was even
running!  Once I caught traction, I stayed right with him, which should be
very insulting to him, but I still didn't make up that car and a half's
length by the end.  It was actually fairly even.  Time to break out the
Visa!  At least time to get a posi, anyway!  I cant be having that losing
crap going on!  Later that night, I gave some Dodge a serious educatin'  I
swear I musta beat him by a quarter mile!!!  Lowrider Ram with graphics and
aero kits...  Poor guy got beat 4 times in a row!!! (only once by me.
Actually there was a fifth loss, but that was to the local law enforcement.
Damn glad I'd already finished smoking him!  Actually kinda ironic.  He'd
lost his license in Canada due to a DUI, so his girlfriend switched places
when the cops got there.  SHE GOT A DUI!!!  How's that for a rough night?!!
I guess it was her truck, tho, too.
     
     Anyway, David Brown, I'm still looking for a second Delta, I've
actually made it out to see mine once since I last talked to you.  I hope
you're not getting too impatient.  I think I actually have a day off coming
up, I hope it is nice out.  It's been raining like Minnesota here lately!
Especially bad on days when I try getting something done!  
     Well I'd better stop this LFP(ost - I like that abbrev.!!)  I've got a
final tomorrow.  Then two days off finally (I hope!)
     Later, all!!




     
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 455
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #232
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