
oldsmobile-digest          Wednesday, 3 July 1996       Volume 01 : Number 220


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 16:05:20 -0300
Subject: Re: antique car insurance

Bob,
Thanks for your reply.  My wife pays the car insurance premiums and never fails 
to mention how expensive it is to insure these old cars.  Therefore, when the 
premium renewal notice and Hemmings showed up the same day I thought I should 
check into antique insurance.
I have read all the correspondence about what your coverage really means in 
terms of "stated value" insurance and wanted to make sure that I didn't get the 
"bad" stuff.
After talking to several friends and reading replys from E mail I've decided to 
go with J.C. Taylor (I said J.C. Whitney the other day, thanks for correcting 
me).
Thanks again for replying and I"ll see you next month in Atlanta.

Art Fuller 

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 17:20:24 -0300
Subject: Re: (no subject) 

>>lkj
>uhhh, what is this....weird

Headers seem to indicate a terminal in the Yale U. Library.
Have we made anybody mad over there recently?  :-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: lawrencr@kostabi.gdls.com (Robert Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 19:09:40 -0300
Subject: Re: (no subject) 

> 
> >>lkj
> >uhhh, what is this....weird
> 
> Headers seem to indicate a terminal in the Yale U. Library.
> Have we made anybody mad over there recently?  :-)
> 
> Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431

For crying out loud, I hope it's not some AMSOIL toteing heavy
sent in by them jack-booted Toro thugs!

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Lawrence   | 1970 Oldsmobile 98 Convertible               .^.
lawrencr@gdls.com |  _________,~--,___________\____________     /9|8\
(810) 825-5450    |  |                |~    |        ___   |    \}|{/
Sterling Hts., MI |  =------(-o-)-------------------( o )--=      v

------------------------------

From: Tom Sagaser <tomsag@emh1.tic.bismarck.nd.us>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 19:10:06 -0300
Subject: 1966 442

I am looking at a 1966 442.  The add says that the engine is an 
original 455.  I don't believe that Olds had a 455 until 1968. Is this 
true??
Where can I find the original specs that Olds had for these years of 
cars (1964-1970)
Thanks
Tom

------------------------------

From: Doug McClanahan <mcclan@wsdot.wa.gov>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 19:34:00 -0300
Subject: RE: 1966 442

From: oldsmobile-owner
To: oldsmobile
Subject: 1966 442
Date: Tuesday, July 02, 1996 7:10PM

I am looking at a 1966 442.  The add says that the engine is an 
original 455.  I don't believe that Olds had a 455 until 1968. Is this 
true??
Where can I find the original specs that Olds had for these years of 
cars (1964-1970)
Thanks
Tom
- -----------------
Tom, check out http://www.cjnetworks.com/olds/enginecodes.html.  It has lotsa info like 
the following:

1966

ENGINE    HP    CARB.   TRANS. COMP.    CODE
250 L6    155   l-BBL   MT     8.50:1   VA
250 L6    155   l-BBL   MT     8.50:1   VB(with K19)
250 L6    155   l-BBL   MT     8.50:1   VD(with A/C & K19)
250 L6    155   l-BBL   MT     8.50:1   VC(with Kl9)
250 L6    ---   l-BBL   MT     7.25:1   VJ (export)
250 L6    155   l-BBL   AT     8.50:1   VE
250 L6    155   l-BBL   AT     8.50:1   VF(with A/C)
250 L6    155   l-BBL   AT     8.50:1   VG(with A/C & K19)
250 L6    ---   l-BBL   AT     7.25:1   VK (export)
330 V8    250   2-BBL   MT     9.00:1   QI
330 V8    250   2-BBL   MT     9.00:1   QJ(HD clutch)
330 V8    ---   2-BBL   MT     8.30:1   QK(export)
330 V8    250   2-BBL   AT     9.00:1   QA
330 V8    250   2-BBL   AT     9.00:1   KQA(with K19)
330 V8    250   2-BBL   AT     9.00:1   QB(with A/C)
330 V8    250   2-BBL   AT     9.00:1   KQB(with A/C & Kl9)
330 V8    ---   2-BBL   AT     8.30:1   QC (export)
330 V8    310   4-BBL   MT     9.00:1   QU
330 V8    310   4-BBL   AT     9.00:1   QS
330 V8    310   4-BBL   AT     9.00:1   KQS(with K19)
330 V8    320   4-BBL   MT     10.25:1  QV
330 V8    320   4-BBL   MT     10.25:1  QX(HD clutch)
330 V8    ---   4-BBL   MT     8.30:1   QY (eport)
330 V8    320   4-BBL   AT     10.25:1  QN
330 V8    320   4-BBL   AT     10.25:1  KQN(with K19)
330 V8    320   4-BBL   AT     10.25:1  QP(with A/C)
330 V8    320   4-BBL   AT     10.25:1  KQP(with A/C & K19)
330 V8    ---   4-BBL   AT     8.30:1   QO(export)
400 V8    350   4-BBL   MT     10.50:1  QW
400 V8    350   4-BBL   AT     10.50:1  QR
400 V8    350   4-BBL   AT     10.50:1  KQR(with K19)
400 V8    360   3X2BBL  MT     10.50:1  QZ
400 V8    360   3X2BBL  MT     10.50 1  --(W30)
- ----------


Have a good one!

Doug
mcclan@wsdot.wa.gov

------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 19:39:17 -0300
Subject: Re: 1966 442

Tom,
That must be one of those "one offs" I've heard of.  I don't think the engine 
was even made until the next year.  Get the block part number, it might really 
be the 400 that should have come from the factory and the owner just doesn't 
know better.
I'm sure someone will explain where that number is located and what it means.

------------------------------

From: "Jason P. Labay" <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 19:43:25 -0300
Subject: Re: Fusick Trip (a short story)

I live less than 2 miles from Summit Racing, go there at least every other week.

>>Anyone else visit the storefront of these places the rest of us just
>>Catalog-order from? (i.e. Dick Miller/Mondello/Year One/Oldsmobile USA/Kanter
>>etc.)
>
>Heh-heh. I have the ability to visit J.C. Whitney in person. The rest of
>you can just turn green with envy. So there.  ;-)
Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com)
1988 Camaro IROC-Z/28 5.0 bowtie power  
1975 Hurst/Olds W-25 5.7 rocket power     
HOCA member #0278A...in need of 75 H/O and 442 parts!

------------------------------

From: ngomez@iadfw.net (Nick Gomez)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 19:20:43 -0300
Subject: WTD: Open Element Air Cleaner 

I'd like one of those chrome air cleaners that people use to dress up their
engine. Not any rare factory parts, just a cheap Edelbrock type. 14"
diameter? I don't really need one, but I want one. I can't find a tall
enough air filter for my stock air cleaner, I think the filters for the
open air one should be easy to find. I don't think I'd notice any increase
in performance. Well, let me know!
BeatniK

      ------------------------------------------------------------------
      1965 Oldsmobile 98          TIP # 1048         Trade Live Concerts
      Dallas, Texas             MiSTie # 53344        Collect Hot Wheels
      ------------------------------------------------------------------
                Official Signature File Of The Olympic Games

------------------------------

From: grpruett@vt.edu (Greg Pruett)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 1995 09:43:22 -0300
Subject: Re: 1966 442 

I have the original 1966 olds sales brochure for the entire Oldsmobile line.
(I think it covers the entire line)  The 442 package is listed as only being
availible with one engine.  A 400 cubic inch engine rated at 350 hp and 440
lbs torque.  The largest engine listed for any olds that year was the 425.
The 455 didn't come around until 1968 according to my `72 Motor's auto
repair manual.  If I remember correctly the first 442 to get a 455 was a `68
Hurst olds.  Hurst added the 455 to cutlass bodies shipped from the factory
with no engines...I think.  They were very rare cars.  Can someone verify
this?  It's been a year or so since I've read the article.

Is the seller throwing in some magic beans with the sale?
Greg    



>I 

am looking at a 1966 442.  The add says that the engine is an 
>original 455.  I don't believe that Olds had a 455 until 1968. Is this 
>true??
>Where can I find the original specs that Olds had for these years of 
>cars (1964-1970)
>Thanks
>Tom
>
>
The Hybrid Electric Vehicle Team of Virginia Tech
http://www.vt.edu:10021/org/hybridcar/index.html

------------------------------

From: "Dink" <dink@infinet.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 16:43:51 -0300
Subject: Re: Hey

> Even if you ARE missing the required  Toro (hint-hint, nudge-nudge).
Some things don't change over time.  Still the Toro infection going 
around?

> > enough to my grandparents, but they don't care. 
> Of course, we don't.  We're just SENIOR kids.
nice expression.
 
> > It's kind of wierd to hang out with on the Saturday night cruises...
> Mutual.     ;)
At least were all car freaks.

> > ... we have a car cruise every Saturday at the Brunswick Big Boys. 
> I've added it to the tour list.
Are you going on a summer cruise?  I got a place to go on friday's 
and sunday's too.  Not as big.
 
> > It's mostly cheby stuff..
> Yeah, but it's always nice to have the commoners around.
Some nice commoners.

> > but usually over a 1000 cars a weekend. 
> Whoa!  Nice crowd!
Yep, very nice. and it's at the end of my street.
 
> Later, kid.  :)
Later pops.
 
> Tampa, Florida
Whoa, that's a drive to Ohio :)

Dink
____________________________________________________
Dink                   Cleveland,Ohio
80 Olds Delta 88 Royale
95 Formula 6M, T's, 1SC, Hurst, CAGS!
Dink@infinet.com
- ----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: "Dink" <dink@infinet.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 16:43:51 -0300
Subject: Re: Hey

> Glad to see you back.
Thanks.

> Do you have a site that shows your Delta 88?

Not yet, but it will be :  http://www.infinet.com/~dink

Dink
____________________________________________________
Dink                   Cleveland,Ohio
80 Olds Delta 88 Royale
95 Formula 6M, T's, 1SC, Hurst, CAGS!
Dink@infinet.com
- ----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: "Dink" <dink@infinet.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 16:55:46 -0300
Subject: Re: Fusick Trip (a short story)

>Anyone else visit the storefront of these places the rest of us just
>Catalog-order from? (i.e. Dick Miller/Mondello/Year One/Oldsmobile USA/Kanter
>tc.)

I live about 40min from Summit Racing and go there at least 
monthly, if not weekly.

Dink
____________________________________________________
Dink                   Cleveland,Ohio
80 Olds Delta 88 Royale
95 Formula 6M, T's, 1SC, Hurst, CAGS!
Dink@infinet.com
- ----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 20:56:52 -0300
Subject: Fwd: Shift kits 

In a message dated 96-07-01 23:07:23 EDT, chip@in-motion.net (Chip McMann)
writes:

>One more thing.....Are Shift kits bad for a transmission???

This the last line of a piece of mail I recieved from Chip.  He joined and
dropped the list in a couple of days last week.  He and I have been going
back and forth about our '72s.  His tranny has 150K, he's adding fluid every
other week, and if he doesn't add fluid the transmission doesn't transmit.
 Says he'll let me know when he "dig in" to the tranny.  I know nothing about
shift kits, except that I've heard guys talk about how they have one and
except for that I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to put one in the tranny as
is.

What do y'all think?

Paul
'72 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (without a shift kit)

- ---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:	chip@in-motion.net (Chip McMann)
To:	PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: 96-07-01 23:07:23 EDT

PHartlieb@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 96-06-28 22:27:43 EDT, you write:
> 
> >       Have you ever done any transmission work??  I have a small leak
> >and I am thinking about pulling the transmision and replacing the seals.
> >
> >Good or bad idea?  any comments.
> >
> >
> 
> Chip
> 
> Nope, no transmission work so far (as he crosses his fingers).  Some folks
> have told me that servicing their transmission at high mileage made the
> tranny work worse than before.  But you're not talking about servicing, are
> you. 

Well it has 150,000 so if that is high miles...   :)


> I'd say it would depend on how much the tranny's leaking.  I kind of

I have to top it off or it wont work....about once every 2 weeks.

> accept the fact that all cars leak a little fluid.  I think I would tend to
> let it alone unless it's leaking pretty good.  That's your call.  Hoping I
> don't have to worry about that for a while.


True mine also has a small leak around the valve cover gaskets....

> 
> What I worry about is the timing chain.  Folks say they should be replaced
> (and the gears, too) around 80K.  Mine has 118K on the original.  Engine
> isn't really that strong (wasn't really taken good care of, needs to be
> overhauled eventually anyway), I'm just worried about WHERE it's gonna
> happen.  I use her quite a bit and can just see myself being out of state
> when she goes.
> 
> Paul

I REALLY hope my timing chain doesnt go....I would have no clue on how to fix
it.  I 
guess that isa what old cars are for though "tinkering"  :)


Later
Chip

PS I will drop you a line when I dig into the transmission.  

One more thing.....Are Shift kits bad for a transmission???
- -- 
When a cat is dropped, it always lands on its feet, and when toast is
 dropped, it always lands with the buttered side facing down.  I propose to
 strap buttered toast to the back of a cat; the two will hover, spinning
 inches above the ground.  With a giant buttered cat array, a high-speed
 monorail could easily link New York with Chicago.

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 20:58:07 -0300
Subject: '73-'75 Cutlass Fenders 

I whipped out my '73 & '75 Sales brochures and compared the fenders on the
Cutlass Supremes.  The '73 & '75 fenders look identical, right down to the
louvers, but...

The '73 as you know uses a thin, bar-type bumper and the '75 uses a much
heavier bumper.  Thus the '75 bumper filler goes all the way down to the
bottom edge of the fender.  The side marker lite is located right above the
accent bend in the sheetmetal.  The side marker lite on the '73 is located
down at the very corner of the fender, below the bumper bar where it wraps
around the side of fender.  Now, in the brochure, it's hard to tell if that
is part of the sheetmetal, or it is a plastic or fibreglass panel.  I had one
of these panels in my hand once, don't remember exactly what it looks like,
although I seem to remember it being a definate corner piece.  If the place
where that side marker lite is on the '73 is a separate panel (which I think
it is), then it's possible that the extended bumper filler, due to the larger
bumper, of the '75 is filling the same space.  The only thing you would need
to worry about would be cutting the fender to add the '75 marker lite, or
putting a plate in there to get rid of it, which ever you are doing.

OK?

Paul
The Sales Brochure Guy  

------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:05:22 -0300
Subject: 68 h/o engines

Greg,
Olds finally admitted installing the 455 engines for the 68 before they went 
down the street to hurst.

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:10:12 -0300
Subject: Re: (no subject) 

At 17:20 7.2.96 -0300, you wrote:
>>>lkj
>>uhhh, what is this....weird
>
>Headers seem to indicate a terminal in the Yale U. Library.
>Have we made anybody mad over there recently?  :-)
>
>Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
>Datalogics, Inc.
>441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
>Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473
>

nope...not that i know of...i think i played them in a rugby match
once...they were easy to beat
                        ZAck

------------------------------

From: Dana and Mary Taylor <dmtaylor@top.monad.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 23:15:27 -0300
Subject: Re: 350 for the '84 CutSup

Shawn Twomey wrote:


> My goal is to make a small-block that's very torquey & driveable make
> ~300hp in a '85 442 with the stock carb and air cleaner (stock "look")
> and using the computer, with emmissions controls like EGR and catalytic
> converters.  Here's what I have and will have shortly (any comments from
> the more experienced engine builders greatly appreciated):

My 84 already has headers and is breathing free w/o computer. 

> 

> 
> Umm, doesn't all that sound reasonable to you?Yes it sounds reasonable to me but the wifs .... Well thats another story.
> 
> In any case, watch out for the tranny.  That car probably has
> the THM-200, esp. if it originally had a V6.  If that's the case, you'll
> need to do something about it, because a 250hp Olds 350 will crush that
> thing.  You'll want a THM-350, or better yet a 200-4R ($$) (see previous
> discussions).  Also, what rear end does it have?  Probably a 3.07 or
> thereabouts.  Not great for performance, but the 350 will still move it
> around pretty good.Have not cked the rear end yet... but the tranny is not orig and is also 
comming out when the 350 goes in.
> One more question... I need to do something about the springs in the front. 
The car currently has a pleasent rake toward the nose but it bottoms out on 
bumps ( this is cow hampshire don't forget, We have frost heaves year 
around,) (but they only warn you of them in the spring). I need some help on 
what Olds springs might be better. I have access to many Old's here in a 
local yard so with suggestions I could buy the used springs. I need to know 
which ones would fit w/o modifaction.

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:13:09 -0300
Subject: Re: WTD: Open Element Air Cleaner 

At 19:20 7.2.96 -0300, you wrote:
>I'd like one of those chrome air cleaners that people use to dress up their
>engine. Not any rare factory parts, just a cheap Edelbrock type. 14"
>diameter? I don't really need one, but I want one. I can't find a tall
>enough air filter for my stock air cleaner, I think the filters for the
>open air one should be easy to find. I don't think I'd notice any increase
>in performance. Well, let me know!
>BeatniK
>
>      ------------------------------------------------------------------
>      1965 Oldsmobile 98          TIP # 1048         Trade Live Concerts
>      Dallas, Texas             MiSTie # 53344        Collect Hot Wheels
>      ------------------------------------------------------------------
>                Official Signature File Of The Olympic Games

i'm having the same problem finding one for the Bravada truck...the damn TBI
has a messed up lip and will only take the stock air cleaner
assembly...anyone know of one that may fit?
                        Zack

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:26:43 -0300
Subject: Re: WTD: Open Element Air Cleaner

Dont know if your TBI is the same but my friend's 89 4.3 TBI fits a 
normal Edelbrock 11" open element just fine.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
 revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
 information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
 Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
 been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

From: Bob Valentine <ravalent@liii.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 22:17:28 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Idle Compensator 

On Tue, 2 Jul 1996 JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com wrote:
> > 1. What does an idle compensator do exactly? We've got the hole 
>           
>    It's purpose was that when the carb (engine in general) got over a 
> certain temp it would open and speed up the idle a little for increased 
> cooling.
> 
>           Actually, I always thought it was called a HOT idle 
>           compensator, the purpose of which was to admit additional 
>           idle air during periods of very hot idling engine operation. 

    Ooops... I forgot to put the *IDLE* word in.  Stupid fingers - that's 
what I get for working on a Mopar last night.  ;^)

>           in the carb body).  When the spring reaches a certain 
>           temperature (ok class, what temperature is it?), the
    
    Pretty hot, I think.   My '71 had one on it, and I can't remember 
ever seeing the idle go up at all - even with the temp guage sitting at 
230 while stuck in traffic.  Of course, I was so paranoid about 
overheating in the middle of East New York (Brooklyn) I might not have 
noticed a increase....

    On another note, isn't this rather simular to the temperature 
operated vacume switch that was on my '72 350?   At something like 220 
degrees (coolant) it switched the distibutor advance from ported to full 
manifold, achieiving almost the same result.

                     -->   Bob Valentine  <--  
                    --> ravalent@liii.com  <--

------------------------------

From: Richard Bonazzoli <bonazzoli@5onflr.ENET.dec.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 22:49:52 -0300
Subject: RE: Edelbrock Intake Question 

>I have a Edelbrock Performer RPM intake on my Olds 350, part # 7111. 
>Can anyone tell me
>what the purpose of the waffle style aluminum is at the bottom of the plenum?
>My guess is that it is to puddle the fuel somehow.

Actually, that waffle is designed to eliminate puddling, not cause it.  
Most dual plane intakes (and many short runner single plane) have some 
amount of puddling that is going to occur in the bottom of the manifold.  
The waffle upsets the air going by the puddled fuel, thereby pulling it into 
the air stream.  Without the waffle, air would flow over the puddled fuel 
without pulling it into the air stream.

Some intakes such as the Victor Jr. have no waffle, because the runners are
tuned to keep the air moving fast enough that puddling is not a problem.

The bottom line is that the waffle is designed to improve the air/fuel mixture.
The people at Edelbrock know what they are doing, so if it were me I would
leave the waffle alone.

Rich

------------------------------

From: RbtNeumann@aol.com
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 23:00:06 -0300
Subject: Re: Hey 

Where's the Brunswick Big Boy and how the heck do they fit all those cars in
a Big Boy parking lot?  Might stop in on Saturday if I'm around...if not this
Sat, then next.  I'll be driving a 72 blue Delta 88 Conv. with a beautiful
blonde in the passenger seat.  Wednesday night there is a small cruise in at
Jimbo's, NW of Akron...take 77 to Ghent Rd exit, hang a left and Jimbo's is
500 yards on the left...if you hit a traffic light, you've gone to far.  I'll
probably show later in the evening.  Nothing extravagent, but fun none the
less plus a good midweek breather.  Now all I gotta do is find a good-looking
blonde that will go out with me on Saturday...

- -Aaron

------------------------------

From: "Roger M. Borlase" <BORLASE@gordonc.edu>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 22:55:16 -0300
Subject: RE: Fwd: Shift kits 

>This the last line of a piece of mail I recieved from Chip.  He joined and
>dropped the list in a couple of days last week.  He and I have been going
>back and forth about our '72s.  His tranny has 150K, he's adding fluid every
>other week, and if he doesn't add fluid the transmission doesn't transmit.
> Says he'll let me know when he "dig in" to the tranny.  I know nothing about
>shift kits, except that I've heard guys talk about how they have one and
>except for that I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to put one in the tranny as
>is.

I had the tranny in my '72 Cutlass Wagon rebuilt at 149K and it has been fine 
ever since.  I've put 13k on it in 1 3/4 yrs.

Roger Borlase
http://www.microdata.com/rborlase
http://www.microdata.com/rborlase/borlase.htm

------------------------------

From: grpruett@vt.edu (Greg Pruett)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 1995 13:04:53 -0300
Subject: how do you retrofit AC for 134a 

Can anyone tell me what it costs to have air conditioning on older cars (`72
Vista Cruiser) retrofitted from R12 to 134a?  All of the shops in Roanoke
Virginia just sorta hem-haw around the idea.  Everyone tells me that it's
still best to use R12 since it's still availible.  Most shops claim they
don't know how to convert to 134a.  

 All three hoses on the car need replacement and it seems nobody makes them
anymore.  The AC shops around town will attatch new hose to the fittings,
but want to charge $45 to $60 a hose.  Since my system has been exposed to
the air for about a year now I'm going to need a $40 dryer.  I figure if it
costs so much to have a car evacuated and recharged I might as well replace
the 24 year old expansion valve.  A cost of about $30.  It would be stupid
to have my car charged with R12 and then have it evacuated in another year
or two to replace a bad expansion valve.  Charging with R12 in this part of
the country cost around $80 right now.  I also understand even the best air
conditioners need topping off with refrigerant now and then.  If it's going
to cost me $300 to $500 to get my AC fixed, I might as well get a conversion
done if it only costs a few hundred more.  Otherwise I'll run out of Freon
in five years or so and then need the conversion anyway.  (One AC serviceman
told me the R12 would probably last as long as I was going to own the car .
What a stupid ass.)

Has anyone had the retrofit done.  (I realize the car will no longer be
stock if it is retrofitted.)  Is the conversion just swapping parts?  Could
I do it myself if determined enough?  Is it possible to save money on the
hoses and just solder copper tubing between the fittings...Is that flexible
enough to put up with the engine rocking back and forth?  Is there any
literature on retrofitting availible.(Magazine articles, manuals, etc.??)  

Any info would be much appreciated.

Thank You 

Greg
The Hybrid Electric Vehicle Team of Virginia Tech
http://www.vt.edu:10021/org/hybridcar/index.html

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 19:12:07 -0300
Subject: Re: antique car insurance

Daniel Gulino wrote:
> 
> At 11:35 AM 7/1/96 -0300, you wrote:
> >I am thinking of insuring my 35,000 mile 70 442 convertible with an antique
> >insurance provider.  Does anybody have any experience with one of these
> >companys?  
> >Art Fuller
> 
> Art,
> 
>   You also had to keep it in a locked
> garage and
> not drive it more than about 2500 miles per year (this is the amount most of
> these
> types of insurance are limited to).  If you can put up with these
> restrictions, I'd say
> go for the insurance.    In the end, I decided to keep the regular insurance I was
> carrying and just
> drive it.  After all, that was why I bought it in the first place!
> 
> Dan
> 
> ************************************************
> Daniel A. Gulino
> Dan:

Consider a company like Hagerty Classic Insurance out of Traverse City, 
MI.  They have no mileage requirement nor use restrictions.  They have a 
good reputation for fulfilling their part of the insurance obligation.  
They insure abouat anything collectible & their prices are about the 
same as J.C. Taylor's.  The toll free number is 1-800-922-4050.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 00:32:04 -0300
Subject: bucket seats 

a while back i remember someone else on the list was converting their 94
S-10 to an olds truck...and anyone that attempts to put bucket seats into an
S-10 that came with a bench seat...today as i was finishing the install on
my buckets(out of an S-blazer) i found out a few things and decided to pass
on the info to you guys if you ever run into the same problem...there are no
supports for the inside mounts of the seats...the rear inside will mount
well with just a hole being drilled, but the inside front needs to be bent
to match the driveshaft tunnel...then you can drill the hole and have it
actually work...also i have found on some seats that on the drivers side
there is a problem with one of the latches on the carriage...there are two
little flanges on the latch that prevent it from engageing...just cut them
off and you should be fine...
                        Zack 

------------------------------

From: Jeff Stanish <stanishj@svpal.org>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 00:37:07 -0300
Subject: Re: Mondello Trip (a short story)

I visited Modellos when he first moved to Paso Robles.  He hosted an open 
house during our Pacific Zone Meet during the spring.  He rents a small 
shop area, it was great, lots of OLDS  performance stuff, bought some 
odds and ends to save shipping.  
Only problem , the nearest drag strip from him is Baskersfield, a 2 Hr. 
drive!! All the land is getting deveolped!!  No place to test(legally).

On Tue, 2 Jul 1996, Dink wrote:

> >Anyone else visit the storefront of these places the rest of us just
> >Catalog-order from? (i.e. Dick Miller/Mondello/Year One/Oldsmobile USA/Kanter
> >tc.)
> 
> I live about 40min from Summit Racing and go there at least 
> monthly, if not weekly.
> 
> Dink
> ____________________________________________________
> Dink                   Cleveland,Ohio
> 80 Olds Delta 88 Royale
> 95 Formula 6M, T's, 1SC, Hurst, CAGS!
> Dink@infinet.com
> ----------------------------------------------------
> 
> 

------------------------------

From: Michael Brady <drolds19@mail.idt.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 02:54:00 -0300
Subject: Re: 1966 442

Greg Pruett wrote:
> 
> I have the original 1966 olds sales brochure for the entire Oldsmobile line.
> (I think it covers the entire line)  The 442 package is listed as only being
> availible with one engine.  A 400 cubic inch engine rated at 350 hp and 440
> lbs torque.  The largest engine listed for any olds that year was the 425.
> The 455 didn't come around until 1968 according to my `72 Motor's auto
> repair manual.  If I remember correctly the first 442 to get a 455 was a `68
> Hurst olds.  Hurst added the 455 to cutlass bodies shipped from the factory
> with no engines...I think.  They were very rare cars.  Can someone verify
> this?  It's been a year or so since I've read the article.
> 
> Is the seller throwing in some magic beans with the sale?
> Greg
> 
> >I
> 
> am looking at a 1966 442.  The add says that the engine is an
> >original 455.  I don't believe that Olds had a 455 until 1968. Is this
> >true??
> >Where can I find the original specs that Olds had for these years of
> >cars (1964-1970)
> >Thanks
> >Tom
> >
> >
> The Hybrid Electric Vehicle Team of Virginia Tech
> http://www.vt.edu:10021/org/hybridcar/index.htmlHello again!! The hurst olds was the first a-body car with a 455, and the 
truth recently came out that the 455s were installed in lansing and sent 
to demmer, i am very sure of these fact's having owned a 68' hurst w-45 
car, i just sold the car last week!!! Happy oldsmobiling!!

------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 00:55:19 -0300
Subject: Re: antique car insurance

Bill,
That sounds better than the restricted milage clause. I'll give them a call. 
thanks for the tip.

Art Fuller

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 19:50:13 -0300
Subject: Re: Problems

Bob0Barry@aol.com wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Quite possibly more than one thing. Sounds like you've got some sort of
> vacuum leak there, which is affecting your idle/auto tranny, and possibly an
> overadvanced distributor, which is making your car run hot (in addition to
> the heat produced from the vacuum leak making it run overly-lean). 
> and intimate phone conversations...
> 
> HOT OIL TALK!  LIVE HEAD PORTING! TOPLESS TOROS AND STRIPPED CHASSIS!  WE'VE
> GOT A ROOM FULL OF HIGH-COMPRESSION PISTONS JUST WAITING FOR YOU!   JUST CALL
> (800) HOT-OLDS!
> 
> man I shouldn't be allowed to type this late at night...

Barry:

Wow!  I didn't expect a list to be this exciting.  I just didn't know 
what I was missing.

The diagnosis of vaccuum leaking, cam problems, & timing seem to fit.
 
Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 01:13:10 -0300
Subject: '69 Toro on the Road!!! And a few Q's 

Yup, after lots of blood, sweat and brake-fluid, I've finally got my '69
Toronado on the road!

After a 3-hour wait at the DMV (*that's* a whole 'nother story...), I drove
the two hours to where the car was located to bring it for an alignment.
Finally found a shop, the guy who aligned it said it was WAY off, and then
brought it to the tranny shop I usually used.

The tranny would act like a manual (no, a 3-on-the-tree is *not* amusing to
drive, no matter what the 3-bbl Eldornado Wagon owners might think  ;), but
under hard acceleration, I could shift the tranny from L to D and the tranny
would shift up through the gears completely normally. The tranny guy
identified it as a "Governor hang-up", and should have that and the CV boot
clamp fixed by tomorrow afternoon. If I can make it back down to CT tomorrow,
I may do the tuneup on Thursday and drive it to my family's 4th of July
picnic.

Then Friday I take it to a bender for some intermediate exhaust pipes.

A few more fixy things:

* I was able to fix the headlight doors; hoses simply came off the
distribution block (which I would *never* have found under that fender
without a shop manual). Dad was pretty impressed when I turned on the lights
at night to go for a drive. One question; is it normal for the headlight
doors to cycle open and closed when the car is started? I'll have to be
careful not to leave any tools under the hood from now on when doing that
tuneup!

* The bad news is that the odometer doesn't turn over; the good news is that
the speedometer doesn't either, so I've probably got a cable problem rather
than a speedo head problem (whew!).

* When hot, the starter is reluctant to turn over the motor at first. Should
I rebuild it myself, or get a rebuilt unit? Are these even available? They
seem to be starters unique to the Toro.

* Parking brake pedal is very sticky/creaky. I doused it pretty good with
WD-40 (yeah, the clock needs work too- later), but it still groans horribly
when I depress it, and doesn't fully activate the parking brake. Any
hints/warnings?

* At full volume, the factory AM/FM stereo is barely audible; blown speakers,
perhaps?

* I picked up a set of ignition and door locks from Fusick's for about $30,
which all use the square key. Any advice on installing these door units? The
column unit seems simple enough. (yeah, they may be interchangeable with
other GM lock/key sets, but Fusick's price is not too bad for the full set).

* Power antenna; motor makes noise, does not move on its own. Can the cable
alone be replaced?

* Finally, the word that strikes fear into any troubleshooter's heart:
_COMFORTRON_! Mine does not function at all, on any setting. This may
indicate one crippling problem, or a multitude/combination of little ones.
Any obvious culprits, once I check the fuses for it? I'd really like some
ventilation/air conditioning this summer.

TIA

- -Bob, the drivin'69 man

------------------------------

From: "Jason P. Labay" <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 01:17:09 -0300
Subject: Re: '73-'75 Cutlass Fenders

Thanks for that interesting information. I figured that the diference might
be with the marker light. I will look into it. Always nice to have the sales
brochure guy around:)

At 08:58 PM 7/2/96 -0300, PHartlieb@aol.com wrote:
>I whipped out my '73 & '75 Sales brochures and compared the fenders on the
>Cutlass Supremes.  The '73 & '75 fenders look identical, right down to the
>louvers, but...
>

Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com)
1988 Camaro IROC-Z/28 5.0 bowtie power  
1975 Hurst/Olds W-25 5.7 rocket power     
HOCA member #0278A...in need of 75 H/O and 442 parts!

------------------------------

From: dave_byers@lansing-online.com
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 23:10:18 -0300
Subject: Oldsmobile Web site

For those of you who may be interested, Oldsmobile just activated it's 
own web-site.

  It's www.oldsmobile.com

  It's got some nice stuff and it's developing some threads for info, 
conumer stuff, classic cars, etc.

       Might want to check it out !!

David_Byers@Lansing-Online.com

------------------------------

From: Mike Hall <mikehal1@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 08:43:19 -0300
Subject: Re: '72 Cutlass Supreme owner...

>There are quite a few '70-'72 Cutlass Supreme owners on this list. Half this
>list wants to restore their car, half wants to make it go faster


Yes, YES, YES!!!! Thats ME! Faster, Faster....

Substitute Beavis & Butthead sound, here--> he..he, hum, he, he, huh, he, 
huh, huh....




Sorry, I digressed a tad there didn't I?


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Michael R. Hall                                  Ortonville, Michigan
E-Mail: mikehal1@ix.netcom.com
The Oldsmobile Stable:    
     1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass S, 380 horses of pure Mondello fun...
     1991 Oldsmobile Eighty-Eight Royale Broughm, the classy one...
         Brought to you by a Apple Power Macintosh 7100/80
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 08:18:13 -0300
Subject: Re: Hey

On Tue, 2 Jul 1996 RbtNeumann@aol.com wrote:
> Where's the Brunswick Big Boy and how the heck do they fit all those cars in
> a Big Boy parking lot?  Might stop in on Saturday if I'm around...if not this
> Sat, then next.  I'll be driving a 72 blue Delta 88 Conv. with a beautiful
> blonde in the passenger seat.  
> Now all I gotta do is find a good-looking
> blonde that will go out with me on Saturday...
> 
> -Aaron

ROTFL! Aaron, you sound like me... where do all those ladies hide, anyway?!?

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 13:55:30 -0300
Subject: Re: (no subject)

Andrew C. Green wrote:
> 
> Headers seem to indicate a terminal in the Yale U. Library.
> Have we made anybody mad over there recently?  :-)

Forward it to Harvard and tell them that Yale blames it on them.    ;)

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 13:52:58 -0300
Subject: Olds Web Site

Rocket-heads,

Just checked out Olds corporate web site at http:\\www.oldsmobile.com\
Not bad at all.  I recommend you take a look.  Nice to see they've left 
room for classic Olds, a swap (?) list, and an email thread.  I hope it 
will be beneficial for us to have a link with corporate.

There was a post referencing www.442.com and the list so I posted a 
message warning prospective members of the number of messages they can 
expect.  Hopefully it will keep the rubber-neckers down a bit.  We 
wouldn't want to smoke the CCN system or drive Greg B nuts.    :)

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 11:06:22 -0300
Subject: 70 442 trivia

Today's trivia question:  On a 70 442 (or probably any other 70 Oldsmobile), 
what color is the plastic terminal shield on the positive side of the 
alternator?									
	1. Red									
										
	2. Black

------------------------------

From: bryce_smith@442.com (Bryceman)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 11:31:47 -0300
Subject: Re: WTD: Open Element Air Cleaner 

>I'd like one of those chrome air cleaners that people use to dress up their
>engine. Not any rare factory parts, just a cheap Edelbrock type. 14"
>diameter? I don't really need one, but I want one. I can't find a tall
>enough air filter for my stock air cleaner, I think the filters for the
>open air one should be easy to find. I don't think I'd notice any increase
>in performance. Well, let me know!
>BeatniK

When I put HEI in the Apprehender the original air cleaner would no longer
fit without modifications, so in the interim I'm using the 14" NAPA brand
chrome air cleaner. It looks just like the Edelbrock unit except it does
not have "Edelbrock" stamped into it. The "Oldsmobile Highway Patrol" repro
decal fit the lid perfectly.
It looks great when used with a 4" tall K&N filter.
If you would like to see what it looks like just follow the "Brycemobiles"
link off the Olds Contents page, then click the "View Photos of Rebuilt
Apprehender 425" link.


 EXCESSIVE IRON rules the road!
'65 442
'66 Dynamic 88 B07 Apprehender
 bryceman@442.com
 www.442.com

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 11:36:02 -0300
Subject: Re: 70 442 trivia

> From oldsmobile-owner@ccn.cs.dal.ca Wed Jul  3 09:13 CDT 1996
> Date: 	Wed, 3 Jul 1996 11:06:22 -0300
> From: mefco@sprynet.com
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Subject: 70 442 trivia
> To: oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
> 
> Today's trivia question:  On a 70 442 (or probably any other 70 Oldsmobile), 
> what color is the plastic terminal shield on the positive side of the 
> alternator?									
> 	1. Red									
> 										
> 	2. Black
> 
> 

Logic would tell me that it is red, so I will go with black. If this is anything
like roulette (red,black 50-50 odds) I know I will lose!

 				Pat Clark
    				 69 442
    			        400/TH400
    			  clark@abu.dseg.ti.com

     The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 12:41:32 -0300
Subject: Re[4]: Idle Compensator  

          
          
          
>           in the carb body).  When the spring reaches a certain 
>           temperature (ok class, what temperature is it?), the
          
    Pretty hot, I think.   My '71 had one on it, and I can't remember 
ever seeing the idle go up at all - even with the temp guage sitting at 
230 while stuck in traffic.  

          Uhh...maybe I'm just nit picking here, but I thought the 
          purpose of the compensator was not to increase idle speed, 
          but to improve idle _quality_ under hot, lean conditions.  
          Theoretically, you should not notice an increase in speed, 
          as it only admits more air, not additional fuel.
          
    On another note, isn't this rather simular to the temperature 
operated vacume switch that was on my '72 350?

          I don't think so.  The TVS was intended to prevent engine 
          meltdown by increasing distributor vaccuum advance under hot 
          coolant conditions.  The problem there was that the early 
          emissions controls reduced distributor advance as a way of 
          reducing emissions.  Unfortunately, under high load 
          conditions, this would result in excessive engine 
          temperatures.  The TVS allowed advance to essentially revert 
          to pre-emissions levels under these conditions to prevent 
          engine damage.  Of course, the easy fix is to bypass the TVS 
          and run manifold vaccuum straight into the distributor (with 
          the appropriate resetting of the initial advance) between 
          emissions tests.
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 12:50:03 -0300
Subject: Re: 70 442 trivia 

          Black...no, red.
          What is the airspeed of a swallow?
          
          (Actually, I vote black.  And apologies to Monty Python...)
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: 70 442 trivia
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at OSC-LINK
Date:    7/3/96 10:17 AM


Today's trivia question:  On a 70 442 (or probably any other 70 Oldsmobile), 
what color is the plastic terminal shield on the positive side of the 
alternator?         
 1. Red         
          
 2. Black
          

------------------------------

From: Paul Bartlett <bartletp@osshe.edu>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 11:59:03 -0300
Subject: '66 Toronado Radiator Cap

Thanks to everyone who responded to my questions regarding the 66 Toronado
that enjoys purging alot of its coolant after a long trip.  It hadn't
occurred to me that a large engine, no radiator overflow tank, and a
7 lb radiator cap .... Thanks to your insights, it's now beginning to make
sense.

Of course, the remaining mystery is why the previous owner put on the 7 lb
radiator cap. 

I went to the autoparts store.  They looked in the "STANT" radiator
catalog and insisted that the car needs a 16 lb radiator cap.  So I now
have a 16 lb radiator cap.  I haven't taken the car on a long trip since,
but I am watching the coolant level and the oil level.

I suppose that the worse that can happen is that I might have to ask
advice about replacing a head gasket.  Oh no, let's hope not!

Thanks again,
   

Paul Bartlett
E-mail bartletp@osshe.edu

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 15:00:32 -0300
Subject: Re: '69 Toro on the Road!!! And a few Q's

Bob0Barry@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Yup, after lots of blood, sweat and brake-fluid, I've finally got my 
> '69 Toronado on the road!

YEA, BOB!

>... is it normal for the headlight doors to cycle open and closed when 
> the car is started? 

Not on either of my '66s nor was it on my dad's '68.

> so I've probably got a cable problem rather than a speedo head problem 

Sounds like it.

> * When hot, the starter is reluctant to turn over the motor at first. 

I'm in the process developing a heat-soak repellant.  Will advise.

> Should I rebuild it myself, or get a rebuilt unit? Are these even available?

Yeah, they are not hard to find BUT the last time I replaced the starter 
(with a rebuilt one), it didn't last very long.  I ended up taking it to 
a shop in Tampa that does their own rebuilding on site.  Haven't had a 
problem since.

> * Parking brake pedal ... groans horribly when I depress it, and 
> doesn't fully activate the parking brake. Any hints/warnings?

I'd check the cables (might have stretched) and linkage (loose?).

> * At full volume, the factory AM/FM stereo is barely audible; blown 
> speakers, perhaps?

Doubt it but hook up any old 8 ohm speaker (like a home speaker that you 
know works) and see.  The radios are hooked to 12 volts but an internal 
circuit usually steps it up to 30 or more for the power amp stages.  If 
this is defective, you might see this problem.  Does the tuner seem to 
work OK?  That is, can you tune in the usual number of stations for your 
area?

> * Power antenna; motor makes noise, does not move on its own. Can the 
> cable alone be replaced?

Don't think so.  The cable is attached inside the mast so I believe you 
have to replace the mast and cable as a unit.

> _COMFORTRON_! 

Wait till Sparky gets back.  I think he knows were some parts for them 
are.

> -Bob, the drivin'69 man

Cool!

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 15:07:17 -0300
Subject: Re: Hey

Dink wrote:
> 
> Some things don't change over time.  

Nope.

> Still the Toro infection going around?

Yup.  Worse (better) than ever.

> At least were all car freaks.

Yup.

> Some nice commoners.

Agreed.

> Yep, very nice. and it's at the end of my street.

The neighbors must be thrilled!  
"Look, Martha, they're shooting Grease II!"

> > Tampa, Florida
> Whoa, that's a drive to Ohio :)

You betcha.  'Course it depend on what you're driving.   ;)

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 12:05:39 -0300
Subject: Re: 70 442 trivia 

In a message dated 96-07-03 10:12:23 EDT, you write:

<< Today's trivia question:  On a 70 442 (or probably any other 70
Oldsmobile), 
 what color is the plastic terminal shield on the positive side of the 
 alternator?									
 	1. Red									
 										
 	2. Black
 
  >>
I've seen both.

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 12:02:22 -0300
Subject: Re: how do you retrofit AC for 134a 

In a message dated 96-07-02 23:02:12 EDT, you write:

<<  Otherwise I'll run out of Freon
 in five years or so and then need the conversion anyway.  (One AC serviceman
 told me the R12 would probably last as long as I was going to own the car .
 What a stupid ass.) >>


A fellow whose _business_ is AC systems is a member of our local Olds Club of
America chapter.  He spoke at our monthly meeting last night about all the BS
surrounding the substitution of R-12 with R134a.

I don't remember all the details because I am not, right now, concerned about
the R-12 issues for at least two reasons:

1. I purchased a 30 lbs bottle several years ago.  I have three cars with
R-12 systems and should be able to top them off as needed for some time.

2.  R-12 is NOT going completely away real soon, if ever.  It can be, and is,
recylced.  That's one of the reasons legal AC shops collect the stuff.  It's
not just environmental, they get $ back from the recycler.  A lot of
commercial HVAC systems also use R-12 (or did).  Compared to them an auto
system uses miniscule amounts of R-12.  Making all the R-12 systems in use
the U.S. (and Canada) obsolete by elinminating all access to R-12 would cost
consumers millions of dollars ( and probably billions).

The use of R-12 is not illegal and I doubt it ever will be. The manufacture
and/or importation of new R-12 is. The reason it is so expensive now is not
because of the cost of production or recycling, it is because the g'ovt
assesses a very high tariff on the stuff to discourage its use.

My most recent past job was at a Department of Energy lab which used 10's of
thousands of pounds of the stuff.  I had to deal with the recycling as well
as become aware of the laws.  It's a few years ago now and I do not remember
the actual dates, but the tariff reaches a maximum level around now (1996),
stays there for "x" years and then decreases over a number of future years.
 Eventually, R-12 will get almost as cheap as it was 5+ years ago.

My cars have been averaging 6-8 years before the need for a "top off" of
R-12.  Your AC man was not being an "ass".  I would carefully evaluate the
situation before swtiching your system to R134a.  There is a lot of BS
concerning the changeover and precious little experience with this stuff
compared to R-12.  Early reports are that it doesn't hold the lubricating oil
in suspension as well as R-12. It is also a mixture of chemicals, not a
single chemical as R-12.  It is claimed that if the AC is left off for some
time, these chemicals separate.  Since some are not oil carriers, restart can
cause slow but cumulative damage.

I watch my AC fittings closely.  _Any_ oil buildup at a hose or connection
may indicate a leak.  The O-rings can shrink, proper tightening of the
fittings will improve the seal greatly.  When a top-off is needed in my cars,
it is in the range of a pound or less.  That's every 6-8 years for my
experience.  My 30 pounds will last a _long_ time. Assuming no disasters such
as an accident which compromises the system. Then it's an insurance problem
anyway.

BTW, one example of the BS is that the R-12 oil is incompatable with the
R-134a oil. Our member indicated they do not see it.  In fact, a jar
containing a mixture of the two oils has been left sitting on a shelf now for
6 months with no separation.  If there is a problem it is with the R134a.
 Remember there will always be people trying to separate you from your money
with unneeded repairs, conversions, miracle parts, etc.  I have no plans to
"update" any of my systems.

This months Car Craft and/or Hot Rod (I don't have them handy) describes a
new product to replace R-12 which requires _no_ component changes.  Might
want to check that out as well.  I believe it was a "Solder Seal" product but
may be wrong.

If anyone is interested in more details on what our chapter member,
professional AC guy had to about R134a conversions please ask and I will ask
him for more details and post them here.  He does not advise doing so.  And
he makes more money doing conversions than topping off the R-12!

Bob Handren  OCA #7728
'67 W-30 Modified
'70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 12:01:42 -0300
Subject: Re: '69 Toro on the Road!!! And a few Q's 

In a message dated 96-07-03 00:20:14 EDT, you write:

<<  When hot, the starter is reluctant to turn over the motor at first.
Should
 I rebuild it myself, or get a rebuilt unit? Are these even available? They
 seem to be starters unique to the Toro.
  >>
 Ah Hah!  "Heat Soak"

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 15:29:13 -0300
Subject: Re: 70 442 trivia

JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com wrote:
> 
>           Black...no, red.
>           What is the airspeed of a swallow?

What do you mean?  An African or European swallow?

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 15:27:41 -0300
Subject: Re: '66 Toronado Radiator Cap

Paul Bartlett wrote:
> 
> Of course, the remaining mystery is why the previous owner put on the
> 7 lb radiator cap.

Dunno but it is a cheap way out of replacing hoses and/or recoring a weak 
radiator (hint-hint).  When pressure builds it will, of course, blow out 
of any weak spots.  If the 7 lb cap is made the weak link, it'll upchuck 
before anything else.

The 66 Toro ane Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: BRAD.NICHOLSON@s3abac8.ssa.gov
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 14:04:15 -0300
Subject: The Final Oil Down!!! 

     OK, OK.  Enough grease throwing!!!  Here is my decision.  I'm going to 
     switch to Valvoline DuraBlend for 2 changes @ 500 miles each to help 
     clean out the accumulated crud.  There shouldn't be much since I've 
     been faithful w/ 3K changes w/ filter on previuos oils, Pennzoil, 
     Valvoline and Havoline in that order, each for about 40K miles.  No 
     real difference between the 3 but the Havoline came out cleaner as the 
     miles got put on.  I'm doing 2 changes to check if oil consumption 
     goes up, there is none at the moment.  I'm also fixing the leaky valve 
     cover gaskets while I'm at it.
     
     I'll still research the synthetics but I'm leaning toward Mobil 1.  To 
     many race teams use it.  One that had not been mentioned was Red Line 
     (any dealers out there??? ;^} <sic>) and am looking over their 
     literature (propoganda) also.  Anyone w\ experience with Red Line can 
     drop me a note to keep it private
     
     What I have done is switched to Valvoline Synth Rear End Fluid.  ONE 
     BIG NOTE - Add a bottle of GM PosiTraction fluid additive or similar 
     if you got a posi.  Mine is a 3:73 10 bolt posi and just that change 
     alone made the car "feel" that is was running freer.  I did wipe out 
     the goop from the bottom of the pumpkin and let it drain for a good 
     half hour.  What a difference!!!
     
     I'll tell ya'all in 800 miles what synth I'll switch to.  Thanks for 
     the "lite" discussion my question started.  I'll try to find some more 
     kindling wood to start another fire in the future.  I'm getting the 
     digest verion and that is wy I don't post to many answers, they are 
     usually answered in the digest farther down.  
     
     Everyone have a safe & happy 4th
     
     Later
     
      ---
     | | | Brad Nicholson
     | | | 1987 442 W-42
     | | | President - Capitol City Rockets, OCA
     |/|\| Home - 76062.3042@compuserve.com
     | | | Work - brad.nicholson@ssa.gov
      ---

------------------------------

From: Doug McClanahan <mcclan@wsdot.wa.gov>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 13:21:05 -0300
Subject: trivia

JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com wrote:
> 
>           Black...no, red.
>           What is the airspeed of a swallow?

What do you mean?  An African or European swallow?

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

I belive that with the proper jet stream alignment and constant updrafts 
(caused by a speeding aerodynamic 1967 Olds, CS), it is possible to 
transport the coconut quite a distance ...even with the power of the 
mighty swallow.

------------------------------

From: lacey@dsea.com (Dan Lacey)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 14:37:16 -0300
Subject: Re: Fusick Trip and INTRO... 

>I live less than 2 miles from Summit Racing, go there at least every other
>week.
>
>>>Anyone else visit the storefront of these places the rest of us just
>>>Catalog-order from? (i.e. Dick Miller/Mondello/Year One/Oldsmobile USA/Kanter
>>>etc.)
>>
>>Heh-heh. I have the ability to visit J.C. Whitney in person. The rest of
>>you can just turn green with envy. So there.  ;-)
>Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com)
>1988 Camaro IROC-Z/28 5.0 bowtie power
>1975 Hurst/Olds W-25 5.7 rocket power
>HOCA member #0278A...in need of 75 H/O and 442 parts!

Does Boyd's count? (Sorry, had to brag!)

I am located less than an hour south of LA. In the Costa Mesa/Santa Ana
area I have been to Little John Buttera's shop, Boyd's, Original Parts
Group, and many others. They are mostly hotrod shops, and my trips were
biased by one of my co-workers who just built a '64 Chevelle.

I just purchased a '65 Olds 98. My 6 yr old calls it the Great White Shark!
It has a 425 cid. It also has 60K or 160K miles on it. It is in good shape
having spent most of it's life in the CA desert. I am not concerned about
restoring the car, although I will keep it as "stock" as possible. I want
it to handle VERY well, but not so tight that it isn't comfortable on long
trips. I want it to stop on a dime. I would like better gas mileage.

So, here is my itinerary:

- - New headliner. Thinking about using Francisco's Upholstery in Long Beach
who was recommended by ACME headliner (refered by Fusicks').
- - Dual circuit brakes (got the master cylinder, '78 Olds)
  Eventually front disc brakes (what will bolt on???????)
- - New suspension bushings up front
  Any suggestions??? I am considering Global West Del-alum over polyurethane...
- - Rear anti-sway bar
- - HEI distributor. Any suggestions???? What late model Olds can I scavange
from???
- - Needs better exhaust system (Dual).
  Should I keep the exhaust manifold or go to headers???
- - MUCH better carb.
  Looking at the Edelbrock intake manifold and 750cfm carb. Any other
suggestions????
- - By October I NEED to "reseal" the car; windows, trunk, etc. Any
suggestions besides Fusicks'????

Any information about swapping parts (even if I buy them new) would be
appreciated.


*************************************************************************
* THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY  *       Dan Lacey ( lacey@dsea.com )        *
*                           *       Dainippon Screen Eng. of America    *
* LEFT BLANK                *       3700 W. Segerstrom Ave.             *
*                           *       Santa Ana, CA. 92704                *
*************************************************************************

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 07:50:53 -0300
Subject: Re: '72 Cutlass Supreme owner...

Mike Hall wrote:
> 
> >There are quite a few '70-'72 Cutlass Supreme owners on this list. Half this
> >list wants to restore their car, half wants to make it go faster
> 
> Yes, YES, YES!!!! Thats ME! Faster, Faster....
> 
> Substitute Beavis & Butthead sound, here--> he..he, hum, he, he, huh, he,
> huh, huh....
> 
> Sorry, I digressed a tad there didn't I?
> 
> >Mike:

That's the last I want to hear from you jealous characters about our 
Toronado's.  Now would we act like that?  You need a little 
sophistication around here & we need some proper respect from you '72 
guys.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 07:26:19 -0300
Subject: Re: (no subject)

Robert Lawrence wrote:
> 
> >
> > >>lkj
> > 
> 
> For crying out loud, I hope it's not some  heavy
> sent in by them jack-booted Toro thugs!
> 
> 

Robert:

That can't be us jack-booted Toro thugs - we're literate. uh literite, 
literat, litturit....

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 17:41:34 -0300
Subject: Re: (no subject)

Lloyd Culp wrote:
> 
> Robert Lawrence wrote:
> >
> > For crying out loud, I hope it's not some  heavy
> > sent in by them jack-booted Toro thugs!
> 
> That can't be us jack-booted Toro thugs - we're literate. uh literite,
> literat, litturit....

And we ain't wearin no jack-boots, we got them thar CV boots.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 17:44:01 -0300
Subject: Re: '72 Cutlass Supreme owner...

Lloyd Culp wrote:
> 
> That's the last I want to hear from you jealous characters about our
> Toronado's.  Now would we act like that?  You need a little
> sophistication around here & we need some proper respect from you '72
> guys.

Yeah!  Nah-Nah-Na-Nah-Nah!

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Big.Balls@fast.442
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 14:43:41 -0300
Subject: Re: Fusick Trip and INTRO...

X-Sender: lacey@mailhost.dsea.com
Date: 	Wed, 3 Jul 1996 14:37:16 -0300
To: oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
From: lacey@dsea.com (Dan Lacey)
Subject: Re: Fusick Trip and INTRO...
Sender: oldsmobile-owner@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Reply-To: oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca

Well I live 1/2 mile from Joe's discount auto and when I ask for a part for a 68 442 
they tell me they can't get parts that old.  So I call him and ask for an upper 
radiator hose for a 75 VW Super Beatle.  He looks in the books for about 5 minutes and 
says he can't find one.  An I tell him they don't have one 'cause th're air cooled.  
Then for some reason he hangs up on me. 


>I live less than 2 miles from Summit Racing, go there at least every other
>week.
>
>>>Anyone else visit the storefront of these places the rest of us just
>>>Catalog-order from? (i.e. Dick Miller/Mondello/Year One/Oldsmobile USA/Kanter
>>>etc.)
>>
>>Heh-heh. I have the ability to visit J.C. Whitney in person. The rest of
>>you can just turn green with envy. So there.  ;-)
>Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com)
>1988 Camaro IROC-Z/28 5.0 bowtie power
>1975 Hurst/Olds W-25 5.7 rocket power
>HOCA member #0278A...in need of 75 H/O and 442 parts!

>Does Boyd's count? (Sorry, had to brag!)

>I am located less than an hour south of LA. In the Costa Mesa/Santa Ana
>area I have been to Little John Buttera's shop, Boyd's, Original Parts
>Group, and many others. They are mostly hotrod shops, and my trips were
>biased by one of my co-workers who just built a '64 Chevelle.

>I just purchased a '65 Olds 98. My 6 yr old calls it the Great White >Shark!
>It has a 425 cid. It also has 60K or 160K miles on it. It is in good >shape
>having spent most of it's life in the CA desert. I am not concerned >about
>restoring the car, although I will keep it as "stock" as possible. I >want
>it to handle VERY well, but not so tight that it isn't comfortable on >long
>trips. I want it to stop on a dime. I would like better gas mileage.

>So, here is my itinerary:

>- New headliner. Thinking about using Francisco's Upholstery in Long >Beach
>who was recommended by ACME headliner (refered by Fusicks').
>- Dual circuit brakes (got the master cylinder, '78 Olds)
>  Eventually front disc brakes (what will bolt on???????)
>- New suspension bushings up front
>  Any suggestions??? I am considering Global West Del-alum over >polyurethane...
>- Rear anti-sway bar
>- HEI distributor. Any suggestions???? What late model Olds can I >scavange
>from???
>- Needs better exhaust system (Dual).
>  Should I keep the exhaust manifold or go to headers???
>- MUCH better carb.
>  Looking at the Edelbrock intake manifold and 750cfm carb. Any other
>suggestions????
>- By October I NEED to "reseal" the car; windows, trunk, etc. Any
>suggestions besides Fusicks'????

>Any information about swapping parts (even if I buy them new) would be
>appreciated.


>************************************************************************>*
>* THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY  *       Dan Lacey ( lacey@dsea.com )        >*
>                           *       Dainippon Screen Eng. of America    *
>* LEFT BLANK                *       3700 W. Segerstrom Ave.             >*
>*                           *       Santa Ana, CA. 92704                >*
>***********************************************************************.

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 15:04:35 -0300
Subject: Re: Fusick Trip and INTRO...

  So I call him and ask for an upper 
> radiator hose for a 75 VW Super Beatle.  He looks in the books for about 5 minutes and 
> says he can't find one.  An I tell him they don't have one 'cause th're air cooled.  
> Then for some reason he hangs up on me. 
 
That's classic! Betcha this concept would work if you called up and asked for
a rear differential seal for a Toro.

 				Pat Clark
    				 69 442
    			        400/TH400
    			  clark@abu.dseg.ti.com

     The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.

------------------------------

From: lacey@dsea.com (Dan Lacey)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 16:09:27 -0300
Subject: Re: '69 Toro on the Road!!! And a few Q's 

>Yup, after lots of blood, sweat and brake-fluid, I've finally got my '69
>Toronado on the road!
>

[SNIP]

>
>* When hot, the starter is reluctant to turn over the motor at first. Should
>I rebuild it myself, or get a rebuilt unit? Are these even available? They
>seem to be starters unique to the Toro.

[SNIP]

>-Bob, the drivin'69 man


I have been told to just go get a rebuilt starter AND a heat shield.
Install both at the same time. This will go away. (Seems to be a GM thing
in general and not *necessarily* a Toro "thing".)


*************************************************************************
* THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY  *       Dan Lacey ( lacey@dsea.com )        *
*                           *       Dainippon Screen Eng. of America    *
* LEFT BLANK                *       3700 W. Segerstrom Ave.             *
*                           *       Santa Ana, CA. 92704                *
*************************************************************************

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 18:24:20 -0300
Subject: Re: Fusick Trip and INTRO...

Big.Balls@fast.442 wrote:
> 
> Well I live 1/2 mile from Joe's discount auto and when I ask for a part 
> for a 68 442 they tell me they can't get parts that old.  So I call him 
> and ask for an upper radiator hose for a 75 VW Super Beatle.  He looks 
> in the books for about 5 minutes and says he can't find one.  An I tell 
> him they don't have one 'cause th're air cooled.
> Then for some reason he hangs up on me.
> HA!  What's Joes' number?  This is better than Prince Albert in a can!
Wonder if he has a manual transmission for my Toro.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: batkison@interserv.com
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 16:00:59 -0300
Subject: Re: 70 442 trivia

I think it's black?!

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 16:11:43 -0300
Subject: Padnos find, SP tork converter

Found a nice TH400 short shaft at Padnos, complete with tube-cooled oil pan.
It's a 1976 Ch*vy "CP" unit, with bolt-on driveshaft yoke, what's up with that?
for trucks with slidey joint in the center of driveshaft?

Found out, according to the 66 service manual, that the Toros had the switch
pitch tork converter, too... so, I *do* have a couple on hand, Yay!
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #220
********************************

