
oldsmobile-digest           Monday, 17 June 1996        Volume 01 : Number 206


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark Wolfe <markw@wwa.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 15:55:14 -0300
Subject: Re: Help!

Nick Gomez wrote:
> 
> Hi Guys!  Youmve been a great help diagnosing other car problems Imve
> had.  So, Imm hoping you can help me with this one.
> 
> Itms a starting problem.  Sometimes it starts.  Sometimes it doesnmt.
> 
> Imve measured the voltage of the battery before starting and itms 12.12
> volts.  Once it finally does start, the battery measures 13.68 volts.
> Does this mean the alternator is good?
> 
> When it doesnmt start, all I get is a clicking sound?  However, if I turn
> on the headlights they are quite bright.  Does this mean the solenoid is
> good?
> 
> Itms weird, the car can sit for a week and start, no problem.  But after
> driving around for an hour I can turn it off and immediately afterward
> attempt to startit again and..... it wonmt start.  The car does turn over
> for a few seconds but not enough for it to catch and actually start.
> Then, it's had it.
> 
> To get it to start, I have to attach a trickle battery charger to it for
> 10-15 minutes then it usually starts.
> 
> This one is driving me crazy.  The car HAS to be dependable before I
> trust it driving anywhere.  The weather is great here and I'd really like
> to get out, drive around and be able to stop and feel confident I'll be
> able to get going again.
> 
> HELP!!!!  Thanks for your advice.
> -----
> I really don't know much about the electrical/charging system, but could it
> be the starter? I was just trying to help, don't get mad! =) Good luck...
> BeaTniK
> 
>      ------------------------------------------------------------------
>      1965 Oldsmobile 98 Town Sedan   TIP # 1048   I Trade Live Concerts
>      Always Buying Nirvana Items   MiSTie # 53344       Keep On Skankin
>      ------------------------------------------------------------------


Welcome to the world of old cars.   Battery sounds ok, so does the 
alternator/generator.   Your problem is in the wiring/selonoid.   Make 
sure all the wires have good connections.  Not just looking good, but 
check them, clean them.   Most likely you've got a bad connection at the 
battery, or where the ground wire attaches to the body/block.   You can 
measure for a bad connection by taking a voltage reading accross the 
connection when the circuit is under load.   Generally you should see 0 
volts, however a bad connection will read some voltage, I had 1 
connection on my starter (big cable) that had a 4 volt drop, thus only 8 
volts left to crank the car.    You should have in the neighborhood of 
10-12.   Hope this helps.
Cul,
Mark Wolfe

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 19:35:31 -0300
Subject: Re: Help!

> Ive measured the voltage of the battery before starting and it =EDs 12.12=

> volts.  Once it finally does start, the battery measures 13.68 volts.
> Does this mean the alternator is good?

Yup.  Volts be good.

> When it doesn=EDt start, all I get is a clicking sound?  However, if I =

> turn on the headlights they are quite bright.  Does this mean the =

> solenoid is good?

Would *TEND* to indicate the solenoid is NOT good.

> It =EDs weird, the car can sit for a week and start, no problem.  But =

> after driving around for an hour I can turn it off and immediately =

> afterward attempt to startit again and..... it won=EDt start.  The car =

> does turn over for a few seconds but not enough for it to catch and =

> actually start.

ASSUMING YOU HAVE: Checked the battery cables and block ground strap, all =

are in good condition, and all connections are clean and tight...

Hot motors are harder to turn over than cold motors.  A weak starter will =

typically turn a cold motor over nicely but doesn't have enough umph to =

turn a hot one.  The trickle charge helps the battery recover from the =

attempt but also give the motor more time to cool down.  =


I'm with BeaTniK, I vote starter.


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- =

Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Karl Davlin" <ne1469@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 17:11:12 -0300
Subject: Re: Help!

Nick,
	
	The battery measures 12.12 volts.  It sounds a little low.  If you say
your lights are bright then it's probably OK.  It sounds to me like it
could be your solenoid.  I had the same problem a long time ago.  Yes, if
your reading over 13 volts when running your alternator is good.  Once you
start your car you should be able to disconnect your battery and the car
will stay running.  That is if you are not running a major electrical load
like air conditioning.  I hope I was of some help.  

				Karl

- ----------
From: Nick Gomez <ngomez@iadfw.net>
To: oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Cc: shartfel@planet.eon.net
Subject: Re: Help!
Date: Sunday, June 16, 1996 10:28 AM

Hi Guys!  Youmve been a great help diagnosing other car problems Imve
had.  So, Imm hoping you can help me with this one.

Itms a starting problem.  Sometimes it starts.  Sometimes it doesnmt.

Imve measured the voltage of the battery before starting and itms 12.12
volts.  Once it finally does start, the battery measures 13.68 volts.
Does this mean the alternator is good?

When it doesnmt start, all I get is a clicking sound?  However, if I turn
on the headlights they are quite bright.  Does this mean the solenoid is
good?

Itms weird, the car can sit for a week and start, no problem.  But after
driving around for an hour I can turn it off and immediately afterward
attempt to startit again and..... it wonmt start.  The car does turn over
for a few seconds but not enough for it to catch and actually start.
Then, it's had it.

To get it to start, I have to attach a trickle battery charger to it for
10-15 minutes then it usually starts.

This one is driving me crazy.  The car HAS to be dependable before I
trust it driving anywhere.  The weather is great here and I'd really like
to get out, drive around and be able to stop and feel confident I'll be
able to get going again.

HELP!!!!  Thanks for your advice.
- -----
I really don't know much about the electrical/charging system, but could
it
be the starter? I was just trying to help, don't get mad! =) Good luck...
BeaTniK

     ------------------------------------------------------------------
     1965 Oldsmobile 98 Town Sedan   TIP # 1048   I Trade Live Concerts
     Always Buying Nirvana Items   MiSTie # 53344       Keep On Skankin
     ------------------------------------------------------------------


- ----------

------------------------------

From: Brad Nicholson <76062.3042@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 22:51:01 -0300
Subject: Oil for Old Engines

All,

I forgot to add to my posts that my '87 442 also has over 133,000 miles on it
with only the intake manifold gaskets replaced just befor the 100,000 mile mark
and it is on it's 3rd water pump if it is any help in determining that I can go
full synth or blended synth. Also it doesn't burn any oil between changes either

Thanks

Brad Nicholson
1987 442 W-42 
76062.3042@compuserve.com
President - Capitol City Rockets Chapter, OCA

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 23:08:54 -0300
Subject: Re: Help! 

In a message dated 96-06-16 15:43:52 EDT,  Mike F writes:

<< Hot motors are harder to turn over than cold motors.  A weak starter will 
 typically turn a cold motor over nicely but doesn't have enough umph to 
 turn a hot one.  The trickle charge helps the battery recover from the 
 attempt but also give the motor more time to cool down.  
 
 I'm with BeaTniK, I vote starter.
  >>

I also concur. There was much discussion about this a few weeks ago with the
same general opinion.

I had a 68 Toro that would crank over like lightning when cold. Start it hot
and it cranked like there was glue in the starter. I replaced the starter and
the problem dissappeared. So did the car luckily!  (:

Sparky

------------------------------

From: Dan Williams <dr_olds@kfmw.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 16:51:33 -0300
Subject: Re: '68 442 rear end caper & stuff

Well, my car is not a posi, but that should make that much of a difference.  I can spin 
the wheels all day, that is not the problem.  I can't seem to make the tires spin when 
shifting from 1st to 2nd (not that I've tried that much), but I should be able to do 
that.  My car has a 70 455 in it with a mild cam, but I do have lots of exhaust leaks.  I 
guess it could be my carb also.  It just doesn't seem 'right'.  Also, if I am just 
cruising along and stomp on the gas, the secondaries open up and the acceleration pick up 
quite a bunch, but it isn't neck snaping.  It isn't what I've encountered in other muscle 
cars.  However, I guess I am comparing apples to oranges, because all the muscle cars I 
have ever driver were automatics. 

> My car launches well and is a posi, but is not a W30.  It is a standard
> 400 MT with ram air cleaner.  The cam in mine should take a little lower
> RPM's with no trouble.

Uh, I'll be right over.  Well, maybe no right over.

> Come to Alabama and try it.

On another note, I went to look at a 68 Cutlass S today.  It was owned by an old lady 
that was the second owner.  You know the whole story, 77K original miles, blah..blah.  
Well, anyway go to look at the car.  She let this car sit out in front of her house for 3 
years without starting it.  It turns out to have a good amount of rust in it (which she 
claims wasn't there when she quit driving it).  Looks pretty well used.  Needs lots of 
work, more of something I'd like to take parts off of instead of fix up.  Anyway, she 
said she had already been offered $800 bucks.  I told her to take it if she could get it.  
Otherwise give me a call.  Makes that 68 442 for $600 in Mich sound a lot better.

------------------------------

From: "Roger M. Borlase" <BORLASE@gordonc.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 00:02:16 -0300
Subject: RE: Oil for Old Engines 

>I forgot to add to my posts that my '87 442 also has over 133,000 miles on it
>with only the intake manifold gaskets replaced just befor the 100,000 mile mark
>and it is on it's 3rd water pump if it is any help in determining that I can go
>full synth or blended synth. Also it doesn't burn any oil between changes either

Go for it dude!  I changed the gear lube in my '72 wagon with 161,500 miles to 
Amsoil synthetic 80-90 today.  Drove it 200 miles back to school from NH.  
Got a 3 mile per gallon increase in fuel milage.  Of course the old lube was 
like molasses and hence, probably the original gear lube...

The synthetic oil will lower operating temperature and may save you a 4th 
water pump...  I'd say definitely go for it if you don't burn much oil.

Roger Borlase
'72 Cutlass Wagon
http://www.microdata.com/rborlase

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 19:17:27 -0300
Subject: Re: '68 442 rear end caper & stuff

but it isn't neck snaping.  It isn't what I've encountered in other 
muscle
> cars.  However, I guess I am comparing apples to oranges, because all the muscle cars I
> have ever driver were automatics.
> 
> >> Uh, I'll be right over.  Well, maybe no right over.
> 
> > Come to Alabama and try it.
> 
>   Anyway, she
> said she had already been offered $800 bucks.  I told her to take it if she could get it.
> Otherwise give me a call.  Makes that 68 442 for $600 in Mich sound a lot better.

Dan:

The offer is open.  I have found that my '70 GS 455 is much easier to 
show off with as an automatic than the 4-Speed 442.  The 4-Speed must be 
thrashed a little to get the same feel as the automatic.  Whereas the 
automatic will smash itself through gears, I must do it with the 
4-Speed.  I am probably getting the same results though.

A Cutlass with rust is not a good deal.  They are very hard to bring 
back.  We are lucky here to have mostly rust free cars.  The sun and the 
young locals will work over the plastics & the mechanicals though.  I 
bought my 442 for $1500 ten years ago with only a rebuild on the front 
end and brakes and the GS for $1400 five years ago with the same work.  
They don't have any rust, but the interiors are old.

Bill Culp

------------------------------

From: Tom Waldron <tomw@harborside.teleres.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:58:00 -0300
Subject: Re: H/OCA and stuff

 How do I sign up?



Tom Waldron tomw@harborside.teleres.com
84 H/O  

------------------------------

From: Frank Boerger <103454.317@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:00:48 -0300
Subject: '68 Quarter Panels

Re: 1968 Holiday Convertible

I'm removing the left outer wheelhouse, getting ready to install a new one,
along with a new quarter panel.

Once again, I'm new at this Olds thing, and the problem is this:

Year One says their quarter panels are for the holiday coupe, and that there
body line differences between the coupe and convertible, and so, this panel can
only be used for the portion around, and slightly above the wheel opening.

1) Is this true?

2) Who makes a correct panel ?

3) Any other thoughts.

I have a Sherman's catalog on the way, also.

Frank Boerger
1968 Cutlass convertible.

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:52:39 -0300
Subject: Re: '68 Quarter Panels

> I have a Sherman's catalog on the way, also.
> 
> Frank Boerger
> 1968 Cutlass convertible.
> 
> 
> 
I take it you got my post.


 				Pat Clark
    				 69 442
    			        400/TH400
    			  clark@abu.dseg.ti.com

     The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:04:27 -0300
Subject: 83,84 H/O 85-87 442

	Have finally come to the startling conclusion that I do not want to use
my 69 442 as my primary mode of transportation (11 mpg of premium and all). I
would like to have a newer model of cutlass but want to stick with something
special like the H/O or 442 models. The body style from these years has always
been a favorite of mine. I need some information from you guys that own these 
model cars ( and I know you are out there!) First (and foremost) what is the
reliability like on these cars? Being from the dreaded mid-eighties I wouldn't
think that it would be all that great. And:

2. Standard engines?
3. Mpg?
4. Parts availability
5. Maintainability
6. T-Tops? worth the hassle?
7. Avg. $ for a daily driver (real nice, not a show car. no rust!)
8. Scarcity
7. which models were fuel injected?
8. Impossible to find parts I should make sure are in good shape 
9. Trouble areas I should check.

I know that the 442 models were just a cosmetic and suspension upgrade but they 
sure look sharp! Thanks for the info guys!

 				Pat Clark
    				 69 442
    			        400/TH400
    			  clark@abu.dseg.ti.com

     The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:24:27 -0300
Subject: RE: Le Mans

Thats why I like younger men.... :)

- ----------
From: 	Mike Frederick[SMTP:edison3@cpeq.com]
Sent: 	Saturday, June 15, 1996 4:02 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Re: Le Mans

Robert Lawrence wrote:
>
> No.  Memory is the second thing to go.

Oh.  I forgot.


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:38:46 -0300
Subject: RE: Le Mans

> From oldsmobile-owner@ccn.cs.dal.ca Mon Jun 17 08:25 CDT 1996
> From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
> To: "oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca" <oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca>
> Subject: RE: Le Mans
> Date: 	Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:24:27 -0300
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> Thats why I like younger men.... :)
> 


Wow, I am feeling kinda harassed... ;-)



 				Pat Clark
    				 69 442
    			        400/TH400
    			  clark@abu.dseg.ti.com

     The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.

------------------------------

From: <clint@boto.netherworld.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:50:15 -0300
Subject: Re: '65 F-85

On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Dave Duncan wrote:

> Currently, the car is in the body shop being totally redone. It is at the final
> stages of completion. The car was an Arazona car, ie NO RUST! It does not
> have any motor/trans in it now. They were removed for the body work.
> Unfortunately, when I got the car, the original motor/trans ewre nowhere
> to be seen.

That's a shame, but shoudln't matter too much...

> There are several ways I can go with the car. I can sell it as is, I can install
> an Olds 350 engine/trans, or I can install a Chevy 350 engine/trans.

Go Olds at least.   Most people who will want thsi car will be olds people
and your chances af getting a good price for it will be easier with an
Olds engine...

> body gaskets to be installed. I believe I have all the chrome and it just
> needs a bit of Never Dull and poish to bring back the shine.
>
> The interior will need carpet, seat covers and a head liner. I have had the
> dash and glove box redone already.
>
> I also have new springs, and shocks to be installed. The springs are after
> market and the shocks are KYBs.
>
> With an engine/treans package installed, I would love to get around
> $10,000. I really don't know how reasonable this is as I have not looked at
> the market for these cars yet.

I dunno, sounds a bit high for not having an entire interior.   I'll post
this to the Olds list   to see what they think...

Clint

PS, please remember to either send replies to Dave Duncan
<muskoka@nmaa.org>, or lat least make sure to reply to all recepients...

                      _________
Rocket Boy!         _|_ _\\____|_   '81 Cutlass Supreme, Silver, T-Tops
Clint Thompson       |___//____|    Mods: L69/700R4, GU5, 16x8 IROC rims, etc...
clint@boto.netherworld.org          Future: 383LT-1, M21, 4bbl, W-25, etc...

------------------------------

From: Tom Waldron <tomw@harborside.teleres.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 13:53:00 -0300
Subject: RE: 83,84 H/O 85-87 442

>2. Standard engines?
>3. Mpg?
>4. Parts availability
>5. Maintainability
>6. T-Tops? worth the hassle?
>7. Avg. $ for a daily driver (real nice, not a show car. no rust!)
>8. Scarcity
>7. which models were fuel injected?
>8. Impossible to find parts I should make sure are in good shape
>9. Trouble areas I should check.

I'll tell you what I can about my '84 H/O...

1. Reliability hasn't been a problem.
2. 307
3. My guess would put it around 15mpg.
4. Tough with the H/O specific parts, although I'm sending away for a   
    catalog from Lauren Engineering, stay tuned.
5. Not a problem.
6. Yes
7. $5000-$6000
8. Not too hard to find.
7. Can't help you there.
8. Window dressing i.e. spoiler, front air dam, etc.
9. Rust under the doors and in the rear wheel wells.

My Hurst has been my daily for over 2 years. It's been great to me so far   
(knock wood), the only thing that's been a problem is the tranny.   
Consider though, that each time it went, it was something different i.e.   
pump, sun gear, etc... Anything that was fixed hasn't broken again. I   
hope that I've been helpful.

Tom Waldron tomw@harborside.teleres.com
'84 H/O

------------------------------

From: Jon442@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:58:34 -0300
Subject: Re: H/OCA and stuff 

In a message dated 96-06-17 08:01:42 EDT, tomw@harborside.teleres.com (Tom
Waldron) writes:

>How do I sign up?
>
>
To join the H/OCA, send your name, address, phone, what year car(s) you have,
and $20 to:

Hurst/Olds Club of America
455 131st Ave.
Wayland, MI  49348

The dues increase to $25 takes effect on August 1st, so send in before then
:) Also, our meet this year is in Louisville, KY in mid-July. Linda Vaughn is
going to grace us with her presence again, and we are renting a dragstrip for
a day. You have to be a member to attend the meet. You can sign up for the
meet at the meet, although some of the social functions may be full by now.

The H/OCA is a great club, we put out a really good newsletter, and we have
fun at our meet. We don't do judging, since we just want everyone to come and
have a good time.

Jon Wessel
Director
Hurst/Olds Club of America

------------------------------

From: <clint@boto.netherworld.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:03:47 -0300
Subject: Re: Oil Thanks

                      _________
On Sat, 15 Jun 1996, Brad Nicholson wrote:

> BTW - back in 1988 I saw another 1987 442 here in Maryland with the tag 442MUCH
> also.

Brad (and anyone else in MD), there's a Grey '85 or '86 442 running around
the College Park are a with tags that read 1BAD442.    Looks stock except
for having an early 70's 442 wing bolted onto the decklid.  Way cool!
(really!)

Clint

                      _________
Rocket Boy!         _|_ _\\____|_   '81 Cutlass Supreme, Silver, T-Tops
Clint Thompson       |___//____|    Mods: L69/700R4, GU5, 16x8 IROC rims, etc...
clint@boto.netherworld.org          Future: 383LT-1, M21, 4bbl, W-25, etc...

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:11:51 -0300
Subject: Re: '65 F-85

> > an Olds 350 engine/trans, or I can install a Chevy 350 engine/trans.
> 
> Go Olds at least.   Most people who will want thsi car will be olds people
> and your chances af getting a good price for it will be easier with an
> Olds engine...
> 
> > The interior will need carpet, seat covers and a head liner. I have had the
> > dash and glove box redone already.

> > With an engine/treans package installed, I would love to get around
> > $10,000. I really don't know how reasonable this is as I have not looked at
> > the market for these cars yet.
> 
> I dunno, sounds a bit high for not having an entire interior.   I'll post
> this to the Olds list   to see what they think...
> 
> Clint
> 
> PS, please remember to either send replies to Dave Duncan
> <muskoka@nmaa.org>, or lat least make sure to reply to all recepients...


10K sounds way high to me for a car that:

1. Is not a special model i.e. 442
2. Needs any kind of work, especialy not an entire interior
3. Could possibly have an incorrect engine in it (Godforbid!, a ch*vy?) or
   at least an incorrect date-coded engine (If you go the Olds route BTW,
   I am pretty sure that the correct Olds engine for this car is a 330, I 
   know its not a 350.)

As for the correct asking price? I dunno, maybe around 5K?

Hope this Helps,


 				Pat Clark
    				 69 442
    			        400/TH400
    			  clark@abu.dseg.ti.com

     The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:26:04 -0300
Subject: RE: 83,84 H/O 85-87 442

> 2. 307

> Tom Waldron tomw@harborside.teleres.com
> '84 H/O

My God Man!, isn't that a ch*vy engine? ;-)

FWIW, did a nationwide search on the Autotrader web page and came up with two
H/Os,an 83 for 8K and an 84 for 3.8K. Also found a couple of 87 442s for 5.8K
and 3.9K. I am selling my 91 Ranger ext-cab to get the money, so it looks like
I am in the ballpark. Really like those H/Os, especialy the 84 paint scheme as
compared to the 83. Thanks for the Info!


 				Pat Clark
    				 69 442
    			        400/TH400
    			  clark@abu.dseg.ti.com

     The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.

------------------------------

From: "Bruce D. Brumm" <bdbrumm@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 15:19:29 -0300
Subject: Re: 83,84 H/O 85-87 442

Pat Clark 952-3776 wrote:
 
> 2. Standard engines?

     VIN code 9 Oldsmobile 307
   
> 3. Mpg?

     My '86 Salon & '84 Supreme average 16.5 mpg. (city/highway combined.)

> 4. Parts availability

     Fine except for "special" parts -- air dam, wing, wing tips, hood, t-tops

> 5. Maintainability

     Very easy to maintain.

> 6. T-Tops? worth the hassle?

     I love mine.  They need new gaskets, but not a big deal.  My vinyl top
     leaks a bit, but that won't be a problem on a H/O or 442 since they don't have one.

> 7. Avg. $ for a daily driver (real nice, not a show car. no rust!)

     I paid $4800 for my '86 Salon w/T-tops, bucket seats, guage package, etc.
     102,000 miles;  I wouldn't pay more than $7000 unless the car had low miles and
     was in absolutely mint condition.
     No rust anywhere, especially the doors.  I made sure!  Bring a magnet and check
     for bondo and fiberglass.

> 8. Scarcity

     I couldn't find a rust-free or ORIGINAL 442 or H/O for a 
     REASONABLE ( <7k$) $/amount in Michigan.

> 7. which models were fuel injected?

     None.

> 8. Impossible to find parts I should make sure are in good shape 
     wing & tips (h/o), air dam (h/o), hood (h/o), t-tops, 15x7 chrome wheels
     the last two are still available from the dealer, just very expensive.

> 9. Trouble areas I should check.     
     rust on bottom of doors, rear wheel wells, and frame behind rear wheels.
     DEFINITELY look for coolant leaks around front and rear seals of the intake
     manifold gasket.  I have never seen a cutlass (g-body 307) that these did not
     leak on.  Not a huge ordeal to change, but a pain nonetheless.  If they go at
     an inopportune time....see overheating, check-engine lights, knocking, etc.
     Don't ask how I know!  :)

> I know that the 442 models were just a cosmetic and suspension upgrade but they
> sure look sharp! Thanks for the info guys!

I have never had any major repairs on either of my cutlasses (in 8yrs. of ownership);
just normal maintenance items due to high miles (100,000+).  Happy hunting!
- -- 

Bruce D. Brumm (bdbrumm@ix.netcom.com)
Network & Systems Administrator
LDM Technologies, Inc.
Troy, MI

'84 Cutlass Supreme 307-Y
'86 Cutlass Salon 307-Y

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 05:44:28 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Help! 

     Definitely sounds like the starter solenoid to me.  What happens if 
     you don't use the trickle charger, but just let it sit and cool down 
     for a while.  Does it start then?
     
     I've had this exact problem on two cars so far (one an Olds, one a 
     Ch*vy).  A new starter and solenoid fixed it both times.  Just a 
     solenoid would probably do it, but rebuilt starters are fairly cheap.  
     If you have headers, you may also need to get a heat shield for the 
     starter.
     
     Good luck!  I'd recommend fixing it soon before you have to make an 
     unexpected pit stop ('ya know--relieve yourself) on a long highway 
     trip and end up stuck in some podunk 2 horse town in the middle of 
     nowhere for an hour.  I know about this first hand!  And the last olds 
     starter I changed took about 20 minutes from start to finish, nothing 
     in the way, bolts came right out and went right in, and I got the shim 
     spacers right the first try!
     
     Tom.

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Help!
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    6/16/96 11:43 AM

When it doesn=EDt start, all I get is a clicking sound?  However, if I turn 
on the headlights they are quite bright.  Does this mean the solenoid is 
good?
     
It=EDs weird, the car can sit for a week and start, no problem.  But after 
driving around for an hour I can turn it off and immediately afterward 
attempt to startit again and..... it won=EDt start.  The car does turn over 
for a few seconds but not enough for it to catch and actually start.
Then, it's had it.
     
To get it to start, I have to attach a trickle battery charger to it for 
10-15 minutes then it usually starts.

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 06:14:16 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Oil for Old Engines 

     Here's a second affirmation.  Go for it!  I switched my '84 H/O to 
     Mobil-1 10w30 synthetic at 69k miles (77k now).  No problems yet!  The 
     car burns zero oil (none at all, still on full at 3k when oil change 
     time comes!  First car I've ever owned that did too!).  It's leaking a 
     bit around the rear of the pass side valve cover, but it was doing so 
     before I switched, and hasn't gotten noticeably worse.  I have strong 
     reason to believe that the previous owner of the car changed the oil 
     religiously every 2-3k using dino oil.
     
     On the other hand, the synthetic doesn't seem to have gotten me much.  
     Cold weather starts are certainly easier, oil pressure comes up 
     quicker, but gas mileage hasn't increased, and temperature seems the 
     same.  Oil does seem in really good shape come change time, I could 
     probably extend it quite a bit, but my feelings are that using 
     synthetic with extended intervals puts you no better off than dino oil 
     with regular intervals.
     
     I used Castrol synthetic ATF in the tranny (200-4R) this spring.  Wow! 
      What a difference!  Shifts much better, and a problem I was having 
     with the torque converter not unlocking after a long highway drive 
     fixed itself.  I changed the rear-end fluid too, but I didn't use 
     synthetic since I'm probably going to take it apart to put in a posi 
     carrier before too long.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: RE: Oil for Old Engines
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    6/16/96 8:43 PM
     
Go for it dude!  I changed the gear lube in my '72 wagon with 161,500 miles to 
Amsoil synthetic 80-90 today.  Drove it 200 miles back to school from NH.  
Got a 3 mile per gallon increase in fuel milage.  Of course the old lube was 
like molasses and hence, probably the original gear lube...

------------------------------

From: Richard Bonazzoli <bonazzoli@5onflr.ENET.dec.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 13:38:25 -0300
Subject: RE: 83,84 H/O 85-87 442 

One man's story....rather long.

In the past, I drove my '69 Cutlass from April to November and used a winter
beater for the rest of the year.  Like you, I decided to quit using the '69
as a daily driver early last spring.

My goal was to find a nice G.M. A, G, or F car fron the early eighties that
would provide comfort and reliability, and allow my '69 to rest.  My 69 had 
been totally reliable, so it was very important to me to keep this trend going 
(I work during the day and go to school at night.  i.e. no time for unscheduled
repairs).

I looked at a lot of sub-par cars, and then found and purchased a '84 H/O.
The car was cherry, never seen winter, well cared for, etc.

Then the hell began.

This was the most undependable car I have ever owned, and I have owned a lot
of cars.  The amount of problems this car had in a relatively short period 
went way beyond anything I have owned before.

The reliability got so bad I ended up driving my '69 for most of March and 
April of this year.  I was not a happy man.

I sold it after about 8 months, and was a very happy man.
Soon after I bought an '81 Trans-Am, and it has rewarded me with the perfect
reliability I sought in the H/O.

To answer your specific questions,
1. Reliability
Awful
2. Standard engines?
307 vin 9
3. Mpg?
about 17-18
4. Parts availability
no problem for mechanical stuff
5. Maintainability
Difficult
6. T-Tops? worth the hassle?
Yes.  They do leak, but on a nice summer night they are great.
7. Avg. $ for a daily driver (real nice, not a show car. no rust!)
I paid $3500 for mine, but it was in excellent condition
8. Scarcity
Yes, very. forget about junkyards for H/O parts.
7. which models were fuel injected?
None
8. Impossible to find parts I should make sure are in good shape
Specific H/O parts are difficult to find cheap.
9. Trouble areas I should check.
Bottom of doors, rear frame, intake manifold sealing, transmission


For what it is worth,
Rich

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 06:44:21 -0300
Subject: Re: 83,84 H/O 85-87 442 

     1.  Good choice!  Gas mileage won't be much better with an H/O (I'm 
     not sure if the 442's also have the 3.73 gears and 2400 stall 
     converter) about 13-14mpg city, 20 highway.  87 octane.  Unless you 
     get a performance chip, then 92 octane.  For comparison, a "plain" 
     Cutlass G-body with a 307 will get about 16-18 city, 23-25 highway.
     2.  307.  High output (VIN 9) on the H/O, not sure about the 442s.  
     It's 180hp as opposed to 140hp for the VIN Y engine.
     3.  See #1
     4.  Very good!  Most common parts still carried through the dealer, 
     and any parts house has most common parts (alternator, water pump, 
     starter, etc).  The H/O specific parts, however, are a completely 
     different story (Spoiler, airdam, lightning rod parts, etc).  Very 
     hard to find, but unless you get in a wreck or something, if your car 
     comes with them you'll likely never need replacements (they don't 
     break often).
     5.  Easy!  Don't need a whole lot of maintenance though.  Spark plugs 
     are fairly easy to get to, so is the oil filter.  All the emissions 
     stuff can sometimes make maintenance a pain, for example it'll be at 
     least a half-day job to replace the valve cover gaskets on mine due to 
     all the stuff in the way.
     6.  Never had them, but not worth it in my opinion.  Maybe if it's a 
     good weather driver only.  I've never known someone with T-tops that 
     didn't have problems with them.
     7.  Depends upon model and condition.  A 442 could run as low as $3k 
     for one in bad shape.  If you get lucky, $4-$5k for a decent (but not 
     perfect) H/O or 442 if you really shop around.  $6-$9k is probably 
     what you're more likely to find.  I've seen low-mileage H/O's for 
     about $20k!!  A detailed show-quality car w/ moderate miles should run 
     about $13k.
     8.  Fairly easy to find if you're not limiting yourself to one model 
     and year.  It's a bit harder to find someone who doesn't think the car 
     is made of gold.  There's a guy here in Spokane selling an '84 H/O for 
     $9k, 47k miles, great condition (I saw it Saturday, talked Olds with 
     him for a bit), it's worth just about what he's asking.  I see 
     probably 1 late-model 442 a week for sale, an H/O pops up every month 
     or two.
     7 (again).  None had FI.  Maybe the 6-cyls, but that didn't come in 
     the H/O or 442.
     8 (again).  See #4.
     9.  Don't accept any rust.  Bottom of the doors and the rear frame 
     behind the rear wheels are the worst spots for rust.  All the 442 or 
     H/O specific parts should be there, they're really hard to find 
     replacements for.  Tranny should perform well--I'm told the 200-4R is 
     weak, but I've never had any problems.  Don't be put off by little 
     things like the tach reading too high (easy fix) or power antenna not 
     working (very common).  Water leaking around the intake manifold 
     (where it meets the heads) is common.  New gasket fixes it.  If you're 
     getting T-tops, check them out good for leaks.  Lastly, there are a 
     few imposters around.  Make sure you get the real thing.  I guess if 
     you just want the looks, and the seller doesn't try to pass it off as 
     a real H/O or 442, then a look-alike is okay.  If the seller lets you, 
     use a paper clip to dump the computer memory and see if any 
     check-engine error codes are stored.
     
     Good choice on a driver!  I hope you like it!
     
Tom L.

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: 83,84 H/O 85-87 442
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    6/17/96 7:44 AM


 Have finally come to the startling conclusion that I do not want to use
my 69 442 as my primary mode of transportation (11 mpg of premium and all). I 
would like to have a newer model of cutlass but want to stick with something 
special like the H/O or 442 models. The body style from 

2. Standard engines?
3. Mpg?
4. Parts availability
5. Maintainability
6. T-Tops? worth the hassle?
7. Avg. $ for a daily driver (real nice, not a show car. no rust!) 
8. Scarcity
7. which models were fuel injected?
8. Impossible to find parts I should make sure are in good shape 
9. Trouble areas I should check.

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:59:12 -0300
Subject: Re: Help! 

>I've measured the voltage of the battery before starting and it=EDs 12.12
>volts.  Once it finally does start, the battery measures 13.68 volts.
>Does this mean the alternator is good?

I'd say so...

>When it doesn't start, all I get is a clicking sound.  However, if I turn
>on the headlights they are quite bright.  Does this mean the solenoid is
>good?

If the headlights stay bright while you're clicking merrily away on the
solenoid, it doesn't sound like you're getting any current flow through
the starter (i.e. if the starter was seized from heat, you'd still have=20
a current draw that would dim your headlights), IMHO. Either the solenoid
contacts are toasted or a winding is burnt in the starter... or the
brushes are shot, or... etc. At this point I would suggest tossing in a
new or rebuilt starter/solenoid combo.

>To get it to start, I have to attach a trickle battery charger to it for
>10-15 minutes then it usually starts.

Okay, but if the problem is heat-related, it might start after 10-15
minutes regardless of whether you had the trickle charger on it.

There is another possibility you might want to check at the same time
(while replacing the starter/solenoid): if your cooling system is going
downhill (e.g. you have to coast downhill to keep it cool :-), one of
the side effects of running hotter than usual is a slow starter. My old
V*ga, first car I ever owned, had this same hot-start cranking problem=20
(fortunately it was easy to push-start; Gawd, those were the days!) that
went away after I overhauled the cooling system.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:31:51 -0300
Subject: Lower Octane Gasolines

Hi,

When I first purchased my car back in 86, I was able to run 87 octane. =
That saved a lot of cash, but, for the past 4 years, I have had lousy =
performance and pinging on the highway unless I was running 93 or =
higher... The car is always in tune, the timing is on the money..Does =
something just happen as the engine ages, where parts are out of spec =
with each other because some have been replaced and others have not, =
sensors too old and tired? Any opinions? (It's the 307)

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 13:34:53 -0300
Subject: Re: Lower Octane Gasolines 

>When I first purchased my car back in 86, I was able to run 87 octane. That
saved a lot of cash, but, for the past 4 years, I have had lousy performance
and pinging on the highway unless I was running 93 or higher... The car is
always in tune, the timing is on the money..Does something just happen as
the engine ages, where parts are out of spec with each other because some
have been replaced and others have not, sensors too old and tired? Any
opinions? (It's the 307)

I'd check the following in no particular order:

- -- Oxygen sensor
- -- EGR (if stuck closed or disconnected, you can get tons of pinging)
- -- Operating temperature (if high, causes pinging)
- -- Knock sensor, if so equipped. If it or its wiring fails, the ECM scales
   the timing back as a precaution (although I guess you wouldn't have any
   pinging in that case...?)
- -- Catalytic convertor: partial blockage?

Are there any error codes in the computer at the moment?

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:46:29 -0300
Subject: Re: '68 442 rear end caper 

In a message dated 96-06-16 13:25:26 EDT, you write:

<< The noise is the problem.  I just hate to hear it wind so hard at 
 cruising speeds and even with a wide ratio 4-Speed, it goes through 
 gears a little quickly.
  >>

 Noises? Turn up the stereo!  

Seriously, as long as you stay (way) below 4000 rpm it should run forever.  I
limit my I-way revs to about 3200.  WIth 4.10 and 29 inch tall tires that
gives me somewhere between 60-65.  Interior noise reduction was not the
science it is today.  My '67 still has a cycling hum.  It happens at about
3,000 rpm and has been there since the day the car was built.  Change the fan
belt by a fraction of an inch and the harmonic changes too.

I turn up the radio.

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:45:59 -0300
Subject: Re: Q-Jet Testimony was: The Flaming Dubonette & Engine Gernades 

In a message dated 96-06-14 08:06:01 EDT, you write:

<<  The only drawback is that the 
           AFB is not a spreadbore design, and thus requires the fugly 
           adapter to install on a factory manifold.  Plus, I happen to 
           like the idea of a spreadbore...itsy bitsy primaries for 
           better fuel economy ("when driven the same..." >>
In the mid 70's Carter offered a performance version of the Thermoquad.  It
was only a relative of the OEM version, was _very_ easy to tune with strip
kits, etc.  It's what I ran on the '64 Cutlass I had.  That car ran mid 11's
at ~116.  Too little interest, they dropped it.  Too bad, it was even better
than the Q-Jet becuase it was so easy to tune. Used same type of metering
rods as AFB.  The jets used o-rings, just pop out the old and in the new.

Great carb.  Too bad it's gone.

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:46:32 -0300
Subject: Re: Q-Jet Testimony 

In a message dated 96-06-15 20:31:33 EDT, you write:

<< Could you please tell me where to get one of these plug replacement kits.
I
 have asked around locally with no results. I am not familiar with
Jiffy....is
 it a similar outfit as the Zip Kit carb overhaul kits company? >>

Haven't seen one in a long time.  Q-jets aren't as comman as they were 10-15
years ago.  I tried one of the O-ring plugs some time ago.  The edge of the
bowl casting was very sharp, had to work that over as well.  I am _not_ sure
but my hazy recollection is I decided the things weren't worth the effort and
bought (a then available) replacement bowl.

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:46:22 -0300
Subject: Re: Fiberglass hoods 

In a message dated 96-06-13 20:16:55 EDT, you write:

<<  All of the reproduction
 ones are a solid piece of fiberglass and you can not use your stock hood
 springs or you will break the hood.  >>

 I have read that _some_ of these repro hoods claim to include the (or a)
steel reinforcements.

Anybody know which supplier that is?

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 15:23:56 -0300
Subject: RE: Lower Octane Gasolines

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB5C58.9FA21E60
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

No error codes, pinging is not very loud but there on acceleration, I =
have had worse in other cars. Cat is good, just had it checked a few =
months ago when I replaced the exhaust (crossover pipe and from the cat =
down). Stupid car has idiot lights so I don't know about the temp. I =
have plenty of fluid and a new radiator... No abnormal discoloration on =
my new exhaust pipes, so I can only say the temp isn't too high. The =
oxygen sensor and EGR are original, good place to start. Thanks...

- ----------
From: 	Andrew C. Green[SMTP:acg@frame.com]
Sent: 	Monday, June 17, 1996 12:34 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Re: Lower Octane Gasolines

>When I first purchased my car back in 86, I was able to run 87 octane. =
That
saved a lot of cash, but, for the past 4 years, I have had lousy =
performance
and pinging on the highway unless I was running 93 or higher... The car =
is
always in tune, the timing is on the money..Does something just happen =
as
the engine ages, where parts are out of spec with each other because =
some
have been replaced and others have not, sensors too old and tired? Any
opinions? (It's the 307)

I'd check the following in no particular order:

- -- Oxygen sensor
- -- EGR (if stuck closed or disconnected, you can get tons of pinging)
- -- Operating temperature (if high, causes pinging)
- -- Knock sensor, if so equipped. If it or its wiring fails, the ECM =
scales
   the timing back as a precaution (although I guess you wouldn't have =
any
   pinging in that case...?)
- -- Catalytic convertor: partial blockage?

Are there any error codes in the computer at the moment?

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473





- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB5C58.9FA21E60
Content-Type: application/ms-tnef
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB5C58.9FA21E60--

------------------------------

From: ws6transam@voyager.net (Daniel R Burk)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 15:24:00 -0300
Subject: Re: Starter problems

Your starter problems sound a whole lot like heat soak.  Does it only effect
the car once it has been running?  You know, like when you go into McDondalds
and order your burger, and come back ten minutes later?  Or, does it happen
first thing in the morning after the car has been sitting all night?

If it's the former, then try relocating your starter solenoid to the fender
well and off the starter. Also, try installing a heat shield between the
exhaust pipes and the starter.  That starter gets a whole lot of heat from
your exhaust, and if it gets too hot, requires incredible amounts of current
to turn over.  I had a '77 Camaro with that very same problem.

If it's the latter problem, then check all of your grounds.  Buy the biggest
cable you can for your trunk mounted battery and insure that you have them
secured to the frame.   Be sure the braided copper ground strap is secured
to your engine, too.

- -- Cheers,
                --Dan

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 15:29:36 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Oil for Old Engines 

In a message dated 96-06-17 12:42:48 EDT, you write:

<< I changed the rear-end fluid too, but I didn't use 
      synthetic since I'm probably going to take it apart to put in a posi 
      carrier before too long. >>

Be aware that the synthetic gear lube probably does _not_ have the additives
needed for posi rears.  Check it out.  The Mobil synthetic I use doesn't. 

You can purchase the additive alone, in a 4 oz. (0.118 L) bottle from GM
under P/N 1052358.  Failure to add this stuff will result in some of the
loudest clanking noises you have ever heard from an otherwise perfect rear
end!  The worst noise occurs under situations like running at 65 mph and you
pull into a toll booth.  As you pull away a loud bang/clang tells everyone of
your departure.

My wife was scared to death to drive the '70 SX convertible.  She was sure
the whole thing would fall apart at any minute.  The SX has (currently) a
Ch*vy 12 bolt 3.73 posi.  I installed a W-27 cover (if your interested on
how, ask) on the Ch*vy so the rear now contains much more lube than stock.
 One bottle the GM limited slip lubricant additive got ~90% of the noises;
because of the added volume I need to add another to shut it up completely.
 The rear made no noises before switching to the synthetic lube.

There was _no_ need to put this additive in the '67 which uses a cone type
posi.  It's noise free.  But the plates & frictions posi's NEED this
additive.

Bob Handren  OCA #7728
'67 W-30 Modified
'70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 15:29:10 -0300
Subject: Re: Oil Thanks 

Brad:

Are you going to Atlanta in August?  Hope to see you there.

My bride, Cheryl, left a message for you at work.  I was on-line and thought
I'd rattle your cage from this end as well.

Our new Chapter, Olds Club of Florida, wants to get a club banner similar to
the one you guys put up for a show you attended.  It was in a photo in a
recent CCR Rocket Report.

Where/how did you get one for CCR and how much did it cost?  I assume sign
makers would be a start but would be interested in your input.

Thanks,

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 15:29:43 -0300
Subject: Re: Lower Octane Gasolines 

In a message dated 96-06-17 13:35:18 EDT, you write:

<< When I first purchased my car back in 86, I was able to run 87 octane.
That saved a lot of cash, but, for the past 4 years, I have had lousy
performance and pinging on the highway unless I was running 93 or higher...
The car is always in tune, the timing is on the money..Does something just
happen as the engine ages, where parts are out of spec with each other
because some have been replaced and others have not, sensors too old and
tired? Any opinions? (It's the 307) >>

Joanne:

As the engine piles up mileage it also piles up carbon on top of the pistons
and in the combustion chambers.  This raises your static compression ratio by
essentially reducing the TDC volume.  Sometimes these carbon deposits can
even glow hot enough to cause spontaneous ignition.

Slowly pouring water down the carb throats at high idle can get rid of some
of the carbon buildup.  Just don't pour it down so fast the engine quits.
 Put in way too much and you can cause a hydraulic lock up from water in the
cylinder(s).  To solve that problem pull the plugs, crank the engine to spit
out the water and then start over again.  Stand back!  I've seen "stuff" in
an engine cylinder shoot a good long distance - maybe the beginnings of a new
car show contest? :-)

You didn't say what year your engine is.  Does it have a knock sensor?  If
yes, it may not be working properly.

Bob Handren  OCA #7728
'67 W-30 Modified
'70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:33:03 -0300
Subject: Re: Lower Octane Gasolines 

>Slowly pouring water down the carb throats at high idle can get rid of some
>of the carbon buildup.  Just don't pour it down so fast the engine quits.
> Put in way too much and you can cause a hydraulic lock up from water in the
>cylinder(s).  To solve that problem pull the plugs, crank the engine to spit
>out the water and then start over again.

But... water doesn't compress. At all. IMHO, if you manage to hydro-lock
the engine, haven't you already bent the rods, etc.? Seems to me that
getting hydro-locked is like being a little bit pregnant, or slightly dead...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: fireball@indirect.com (Ron Sauve)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 16:06:14 -0300
Subject: Re: getting off the bulk mail list 

>>please tell me how to stop e-mail.  My problem has been solved and I
really cann't handle 70 to 80 messages every day.  Thanks

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #206
********************************

