To:	oldsmobile-digest @ ccn.cs.dal.ca @ INTERNET
cc:	 
From:	oldsmobile-digest-owner @ ccn.cs.dal.ca @ INTERNET @ ABTLAB
Date:	08/21/96 01:43:10 PM
Subject:	oldsmobile-digest V1 #274


oldsmobile-digest        Wednesday, 21 August 1996     Volume 01 : Number 274


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Roger M. Borlase" <BORLASE@gordonc.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 19:53:38 -0300
Subject: RE: FUBAR 350(please help!) 

Greg,

Haven't heard from you in a while and I'm sorry to hear that you are having 
car 
trouble (but who doesn't).  I once had an experience like this.

It was not an ignition problem at all. 
It turned out that too much gas was in the carb because the choke pull off was 
messed up.  The extra gas was going into the oil causing it to thin.  And the 
mixture to be extra rich.  This means 
that there was increased friction and so the engine couldn't spin freely. 
The rich mixture needs more air to get be burnable, so that is why you have to 
keep the pedal at 1/8.
In my case, I couln't even crank the engine.  So the car was towed and fixed.
The choke pull off was replaced, along with receiving an oil change and a 
tune-up.

Keep in touch,

Roger Borlase
http://www.microdata.com/rborlase

------------------------------

From: kdporter@midwest.net (kdporter)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 20:16:45 -0300
Subject: rallye 350 for sale

               70 rallye 350 for sale $4000.00 call me at home,or email me
                                
                 kporter home phone {618}987-2884
                 email kdporter@midwest.net


kdporter
Preferred Company
kdporter@midwest.net

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 13:15:11 -0300
Subject: FUBAR 350(please help!)

At 07:53 PM 8/20/96 -0300, you wrote:
 
>It turned out that too much gas was in the carb because the choke pull off 
was 
>messed up.  The extra gas was going into the oil causing it to thin.  And the 
>mixture to be extra rich.  >
>Roger Borlase


Possibly leaky well plugs?  (assuming you have a Q-jet...)
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 05:51:02 -0300
Subject: Re[4]: Flow Master Mufflers 

     First, I apologize for not taking this to e-mail, but our corporate 
     cc:Mail system strips headers so I can't tell who the original message 
     is from unless you have a tagline.
     
     But anyways, yes I'd love to see the results of that test.  If you 
     could just e-mail the summary of results that would be fine, along 
     with letting me know what issue it was.  The local library has Hot Rod 
     on microfiche so I can go get the article myself.  TIA!
     
     Tom Lentz
     tlentz@teknon.com


______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Flow Master Mufflers
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    8/19/96 8:04 PM


I remember a Hot Rod article that did a comparison test between some 
performance mufflers.  It was printed within the last five years but I can't 
remember exaclty how long ago it was.  I know I have it somewhere in my 
collection.  It'll just take me awhile to sift through ten years worth of 
magazines.  If you'd like me to snail-mail you a photocopy of the article 
(once I find it) I'll be happy to.  Or if you'd just like me to e-mail the 
net result that's fine too... whatever.  I remember they ranked the mufflers 
in sound and performance and did some pretty extensive testing with a c*evy 
(what else? they're hot rod) small block on a dyno.  

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 05:58:32 -0300
Subject: Re: Need help with '69 Toro stereo; and WD-40, the miracle t 

     Well, have you tried fogging them with WD-40?
     
     :-) Tom L.

______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
Subject: Need help with '69 Toro stereo; and WD-40, the miracle tool!
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    8/19/96 9:19 PM
     
Though I'd like to keep the stereo original, I'll change over to a more 
modern unit if this is going to run me into big $$$ (I'm not a purist). Any 
ideas/experience on this one?
     
The radio and the Comfortron (which inexplicably works only on low) are the 
only gremlins I have left to track down on this car.

------------------------------

From: Dana and Mary Taylor <dmtaylor@pop.tiac.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 23:57:50 -0300
Subject: Re: FUBAR 350(please help!)

you might look at the exhaust
> system.
> 
> A plugged system will prevent air pumping through your engine.  With the
> engine running, do yu get a good strong exhaust flow?  Are there tell
> tail signs of damage to the mufflers & pipes?  Can you disconnect it &
> run the car?
> 
> Bill culp
> Decatur, AlabamaIf my two cents is worth anything, I had a 72 *h&vy Chevelle 
a couple of 
years ago that had come to me by way of California. Out there the 
emissions control laws require the exhaust to be orginal equipment 
manufacture (OEM). Well in 1972 the c*e*y exhaust head pipe had a double 
wall. My symptomes were simular to yours except they came on slowly. 
Until finally the car would hardly move. I suspected the exhaust system 
and even removed the muffler to no avail. Finally as a last chance i 
removed the head pipe at the cross over connection and started the car. 
WOW what a difference. I proceded to my local parts store and bought an 
aftermarket single wall pipe and drove happly away. Upon inspection of 
the pipe, I cut it in foot sections i fount the inner wall had collapsed 
about mid way of the lenght of the pipe.

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 06:36:06 -0300
Subject: Re: FUBAR 350(please help!) 

     It could be the fuel pump, although I concur with your dad about the 
     timing chain.  My '79 Olds 260 did this at about 190k miles.  The 
     chain skipped a tooth when being started and the engine acted exactly 
     as you described.  That was the stock nylon gear though, and the 
     engine died shortly thereafter due to all the nylon shavings plugging 
     up the oil pick-up.  Since you have a better timing gear set and it's 
     fairly new, I wouldn't think they'd be work out already unless they 
     were installed wrong.
     
     You could always check for spark by pulling a plug (or bringing a 
     spare) and attach a plug wire to it and hold it grounded to the engine 
     block while someone cranks and you watch for spark.  Only hold the 
     insulated part of the plug wire, or better yet try to set the plug 
     somewhere where it's grounded but you don't have to hold it.  If you 
     have spark, then check the timing.  I've never heard of it happening, 
     but I suppose it's possible that your distributor skipped a tooth or 
     two on the cam.

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 06:13:42 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Backwards engines 

     (disclaimer: Not very Olds related) Yes, it's a bad thing to do to a 
     4-stroke engine.  A two-stroke, on the other hand, can run backwards 
     just fine.  My brother found this out the hard way when stalling his 
     motorcycle going up a steep hill, coming down backwards the engine 
     started and away he went--in reverse!  Once we determinied that he was 
     more or less okay, it was good for laughs the whole rest of the day.
     
     Tom L.

______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
Subject: Re: FUBAR 350(please help!)
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    8/20/96 2:35 AM

start up instantly!  I suppose the spark was just right and the charge 
compressed in one of the cylinders.  Occasionally, though, the car would 
kick over seemingly in the wrong direction and run (horribly) for a 
while, spewing air-fuel mixture everywhere (don't think the white vapor 
could have been anything else).  Is this a bad thing to do to an engine?

------------------------------

From: "Roger M. Borlase" <BORLASE@gordonc.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 21:12:14 -0300
Subject: RE: FUBAR 350(please help!) 

>Possibly leaky well plugs?  (assuming you have a Q-jet...)

Well, it was a Rochester 2 GC...

Roger Borlase
http://www.microdata.com/rborlase

------------------------------

From: Blaine Sanders 5483 <BLAINES@strata3d.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 21:17:09 -0300
Subject: FUBAR 350(please help!) -Reply 

Here's my un-educated guess in case it turns out not to be the ignition:

I once had semi-similar simptoms in my '72 Cutlass.  It was running great. 
Then later that night, I suddenly lost all my power.  I hit the gas and it just
bogged down and coughed and sputtered, running extremely rough.  It
seemed the more I pushed the gas, the more it bogged down.  I just made
it to the movie theater (where I was headed in the first place) and it died
completely.  After the movie, It still had the same simptoms.  Turns out it
was the carburetor.  After having it rebuilt, It runs fine.  I still don't know
why it was running great one minute, then completely dead the next...  I
think it might have been partly due to loss of vacuum at the base of the
carb from the old dry gasket suddenly giving way.

- -Blaine

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 05:43:32 -0300
Subject: Re: WINTERIZING IN BUFFALO! 

     That sounds very similar to how you winterize a boat (my dad used to 
     work at a marina and I helped out when I was younger).  You should top 
     off the tank and add gas stabilizer (Sta-Bil is one brand name, you 
     can find it many places.  Anywhere that sells lawn mowers or tractors 
     is a good candidate) and leave it as full as possible rather than 
     empty it.  That way rust can't form.  If you're leaving it for 5 
     years, then maybe drain the tank since gas would turn to jelly after 
     that time, but not if it's just for the winter.
     
     Marinas will sell a fogging compound that seems much like a light oil 
     to me.  You run the engine and spray that down the carb, and spray 
     enough to kill the engine.  Once it's killed leave it off.  Then do 
     the rest of your chores, like top off the coolant, disconnect battery, 
     put it up on blocks if you want, etc.  The instructions you were 
     given, you run the engine for a few minutes _after_ the WD-40 sound 
     counterproductive to me.  It'd all burn off!
     
     In the spring the minimum you would do would be 1) charge the battery, 
     check coolant, oil, tires, mice in air cleaner, etc. 2) crank for a 
     bit to circulate the oil, then start it and get it up to operating 
     temperature and verify that everything still works 3) change the oil 
     now that it's warm 4) change the fuel filter after that existing tank 
     of gas is used.
     
     Guys at boat stores and marinas are usually really nice and will 
     probably be happy to answer any questions you have about using the 
     fogger if you go to pick up a can.


______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
Subject: WINTERIZING IN BUFFALO!
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    8/19/96 5:49 PM


Hello all,
  Seeing as how I live just outside of Buffalo NY (Lockport), I will soon be 
     storing my '68 442 convertable.  I know the best thing to do (besides 
     putting it up on stands), is to top off the radiator with a heavier 
     antifreeze mixture (REALLY heavy!), and run the car out of gas.  
     However, I was told that when it just starts to putter -n- stuff when 
     it's running out, that I should take a can of WD-40 and spray it 
     straight down my carb and keep the engine running on that for about a 
     minute or so (a motercycle guy told me 

------------------------------

From: Dana and Mary Taylor <dmtaylor@pop.tiac.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 00:26:42 -0300
Subject: Re: My Trip to Fusick's - Not!

Greg Beaulieu wrote:

Again my opinion may not be worth much but here goes:
>  About 250 miles
> into the trip, my tick (which I had always thought was a lifter)

It most likely was

> returned, first mildly, then much louder than before, so that it would
> best be described as a clattering sound in the top of the engine. I
> stopped in the nearest town to check the oil... seemed fine, but I threw 
seemed to be
> running on only 7 cylinders... down on power and even a bit of vibration

Again most likely was running on 7

  I'm baffled. Could it be an oil issue?
Yes could be but not for the reasons you would expect.
The problem could have been related to a bad lifter. I recall you mentioned 
they were 
fairly new but sometimes a new one is not always a good one. The cause could 
be lifter 
leak down. It was a problem on cars years ago when hydralic lifters were new 
to the auto 
industry. The reason I suspect this is because it only seems to happen to you 
when 
crusing. The steady speed of the engine causes a constant oil pressure as 
opposed to 
changes in RPM. The lifters react to changes in oil pressure to remain pumped 
up. There 
is most likely a lifter (maybe a couple) that is losing height over a period 
of constant 
pressure. You could test this by crusing at steady throttle and when the noise 
appears 
slow and accelerate repeatedly and see if the noise goes away. You could also 
try 
holding the throttle at a steady RPM say 1500-1800 RPM in your yard to see if 
it happens 
there. Be careful though not to over heat the engine. This may not work though 
unless 
the lifter is really faulty. The advantage to this would be you could then 
isolate the 
naughty one and replace it as opposed to all of them. If you find the bad one 
try taking 
thr assembly apart. There is a little valve in side thet is supposed to 
prevent this 
from happening. 
If this is the cause using a thinner oil will only makr the trouble worse as 
the oil is 
thinner alowing not only for lower oil pressure to begin with but also 
allowing it to 
leak down faster. This would also explain the results of the other writer who 
said 
adding STP after a simular cruse solved his noise.

------------------------------

From: Dana and Mary Taylor <dmtaylor@pop.tiac.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 00:30:46 -0300
Subject: Sorry

I was having trouble posting one of my mesg's tonight and after sending 
my second I noticed that one got set many times. Very sorry about this.
Hope it causes no problems to you all. I will try not to let it happen 
again.

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 21:32:55 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds Today 

In a message dated 96-08-19 15:50:51 EDT, you write:

<< I have to be careful 
 how I say this, because I don't want to be unfair to Mr. Hemminghaus. But 
 I think he's crazy. >>

Don't hold back, tell how you really feel.

Paul
and his $3500 Cutlass Supreme convertible

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 21:32:55 -0300
Subject: Re: Toroheads, you gotta read this! 

In a message dated 96-08-19 14:58:04 EDT, you write:

<< > "yeah, I've been looking for one of those rare factory dual 4bbl 
 > intakes which came on some Toronados"
 
 Must be VERY rare.  >>

Maybe this is one of those rare 3-on-the-tree-Toro features?

Paul

------------------------------

From: Fernando Proietto <proietto@dow.on.doe.ca>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 10:00:45 -0300
Subject: Re: Race Rockets (Carb Information)  -Reply

Blaine Sanders 5483 wrote:
> I read the same thing, Fernando.  There's a chart I'll try to find that tells
> the max CFM's for particular CID's.  It might be nice to put it in the 
FAQ's...
> 
> BTW, what ever happened with the 442 paint stripe blueprints? =-)
> 
> -Blaine

Blaine,
	good point I'll have to find my info sheet as well. Perhaps post it so 
everyone can see the appropriate fact on max cfm rating for certain cid 
engines.

As for the 442 blue print stripe drawing, I have them. I managed to scan them 
in but I 
havn't had time to crop them properly. Sorry evryone, that is who was/is 
interested in 
them I still have them. I can send them to Bryceman and have them post on the 
web 
site. As for you Blaine I still have your fax number and I will try to fax 
them 
directly to you. I've been extremely busy at work, forgive my tardiness.

Regards
Fernando Proietto

------------------------------

From: "Jason P. Labay" <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 01:12:38 -0300
Subject: Re: Everyone should read this.

Joanne Beausoleil wrote:
> 
> Sorry for the 170 lines, don't remember what it was though. Looked through
> all my sent mail and couldn't find anything like it. I will stay off the 
list from now on, since my opinion of freedom of speech doesn't sit 
well in this group
> 
> ----------
> From:   Andrew A. Senko[SMTP:senko@reston.ans.net]
> Sent:   Tuesday, August 20, 1996 10:43 AM
> To:     jbeausol@ftp.com
> Subject:        Re: RE: And We're Off  Was: Toothbrush
> 
> Joanne Beausoleil said:
> 
> > I would think that there is a sense of camaraderie on this list,
> > especially between the people who have been on the longest, and have
> > contributed
> > the most. I think that is what is being witnessed here.. it's just
> > camaraderie, so
> > lighten up. Some of you are worse than a bunch of old ladies crabbing at
> > a quilting! :)
> 
> Joanne,
> 
> I am writing this personal response to you, rather than to the entire Olds
> mailing list, because you seem to be sticking up for the right to send
> whatever you want to the Olds list.
> 
> The toothbrush incident did not suddenly cause all of this turmoil.  It was
> the latest of a long list of abuses on the list.  And in my opinion, you are
> one of those abusers.  You sent a message of over 170 lines of complete
> irrelevence to the list because you thought it was funny.  I have tried to
> educate you on the proper and improper uses of mailing lists but you refuse
> to acknowledge the very simple guidelines.  Why do you continue to publicly
> oppose the rules that exist?  If you've never been flamed before, and you
> continue with your "lighten up, I'll do as I please" attitude, you will
> sometime soon piss off a group of people and become the target of many
> flames.
> 
> You seem to think that this mailing list is your living room and that you
> can say whatever you want because we are all friends.  Well, the truth is,
> not everyone wants to chatter just for the sake of chattering.
> 
> Never have we asked you not to write what you want.  We only ask that you
> write it somewhere appropriate.
> 
> And don't subscribe to the line of thinking that says "just hit the delete
> button".  Many members of the list have switched from the main list to the
> digest because of the volume of mail that it generates.  You can't simply
> "delete" a message that you don't want, because the digest is only one
> message.  You'd lose the whole thing.  The digest is routinely about 2900
> lines long.  This could be really shaved down.
> 
> I have received personal messages from some people that contribute where
> others can't.  And they would like to see less chatter.  Mailing lists are
> supposed to be an efficient way to spread information.  If I have to weed
> out messages, or use the delete key, then the efficiency is gone and I am
> wasting my time.
> 
> You show all the signs of an internet novice.  Please take the time to
> learn the rules of this road.  It's not a free-for-all.
> --
> Drew Senko

I agree with Art, who made you god? Get a grip bud. Way too much time on 
your hands. Sometimes there are tips and suggestions to be learned from 
the BS on the list. Damn this list is nothing compared to the other list 
I am on, F-Body digest. Talk about senseless chatter and off topic 
stuff!!!! We are lucky here that it is not as bad.

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 23:41:23 -0300
Subject: Re: Need help with '69 Toro stereo; and WD-40, the miracle tool! 

In a message dated 96-08-20 00:52:03 EDT, you write:

<< There is no other way! You have to drop the steering column, the
instrument cluster,
 pull the radio, and then with a wee bit of luck, you may get a glimpse of
the speaker! 
 Lay on your head for about an hour, find the longest extensions you have
(magnitized 
 too) and prepare to go into the "feeling in the dark" mode! Good luck...we
are all 
 pulling for ya!
  >>

Cant this speaker be accessed by removing the ashtray assembly and removing
the duct work for the A/C?  That would put you directly below the speaker,
no?  I think I remember doing this in our '66 a few years ago.  That new
speaker was the best part on the whole car.

Paul

------------------------------

From: "Gregory G. Kalkhoff" <gkalkhof@execpc.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 02:28:54 -0300
Subject: Re: Need help with '69 Toro stereo; and WD-40, the miracle tool!

PHartlieb@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 96-08-20 00:52:03 EDT, Sparky writes:
> 
> << There is no other way! You have to drop the steering column, the
> instrument cluster,
>  pull the radio, and then with a wee bit of luck, you may get a glimpse of
> the speaker!
>  Lay on your head for about an hour, find the longest extensions you have
> (magnitized
>  too) and prepare to go into the "feeling in the dark" mode! Good luck...we
> are all
>  pulling for ya!
>   >>
> 
> Cant this speaker be accessed by removing the ashtray assembly and removing
> the duct work for the A/C?  That would put you directly below the speaker,
> no?  I think I remember doing this in our '66 a few years ago.  That new
> speaker was the best part on the whole car.
> 
> Paul


Paul,

I want to say no. But, you may have come up with a new way to skin a cat!  (: 
I remember 
looking at the service manual, and they showed access the way I previously 
described. It 
won't take long to find out the way you describe however. Give it a shot! 
Nothing to 
lose! Go for it!

Anyone else have experience with removing front speaker from 66-67 Toros?


Sparky

------------------------------

From: Scott R Clark <mickeyd@selway.umt.edu>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 00:37:59 -0300
Subject: (OLD!)Re: Big Block 403s, and ignorant car salesmen... was Re: 
Definitions

	Hey guys!  I've been trying (not very successfully) to clean out my 
inbox of the hundreds of messages I have been building up since my trip 
to California, and today I stumbled upon this rather ancient pice of mail 
that I been meaning to respond to.  It's not really relavent to anything 
current, but if you feel like blowing the dust off, go ahead and read 
it.  :)

> 
> > 	I don't know about anywhere else, but it seems like around here,
> > half the time (if not more) I know more about the cars I look at (and
> > ask about) than the sales people who try to "help" me.  Seems like
> > poor form on their part.  Seems to me salespeople should know their
> > product...or is it just me?  It's like the time I was gawking at a really
> > nice 25th anniversary Daytona edition T/A with the same friend.  The
> > sales guy said it had a small block...Well, not exactly, but I guess
> > that turbo V6 *does* have a physically small block.  But still... :)
> 


> Yeah, I agree.  When I test drove a Ch#vy Camaro SS last winter, the sales
> manager dragged myself and a friend over to his desk and asked us a bunch
> of questions and promptly answered those same questions with teh biggest
> mouthful of LIES! that I have ever heard.  Sigh...
> 
> BTW, the Turbo T/A of the late 70's early 80's had a 4.9 litre (301 cid)
> pontiac V8!
> 


	True, but the T/A I was refering to, was in fact the 20th aniversary 
edition (sorry about the typo folks) that was a pace car.  It was powered 
by a Buick 3.1 turbo V6 (the famous GN engine).  I had to doubble check 
this one, thinking that I had in fact done just what the salesperson had 
done-- talked about the car without actually having the slightest idea 
what I was talking about!!


			Scott
		1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 17:48:35 -0300
Subject: Late model timing Q's 

     I quickly checked the timing two weeks ago on my '84 Hurst/Olds and 
     noticed it was retarted a few degrees (read 17, should be 20).  
     Finally I managed to find a "round tuit" and went to adjust it to 
     proper specs tonight.  Two problems cropped up, and I was wondering if 
     anyone had any ideas.  I've adjusted the timing on several Olds 
     engines before, but none computerized, so yes I did the obvious things 
     like loosen the hold-down nut and short the ALDL diagnostic terminal.
     
     1) The timing isn't rock steady, it jumps back and forth by about a 
     degree.  Is this cause for alarm?  What could be the cause?  Worn 
     timing chain or something as simple as needing a new cap and rotor?  
     If I speed up the engine just 1 or 200 RPM the timing steadies out.
     
     2) The $%*&ing distributor won't budge!  I didn't get the timing 
     adjusted because I can't move the bloody thing.  Any ideas why, and 
     what I can do about it?  I soaked the base with WD-40 and a half hour 
     later it still wouldn't budge even with a hammer (I didn't hit it too 
     hard though since it's only made of pot metal).  It doesn't look 
     corroded back there, everythings in pretty good shape visually.
     
     Another small question about computer codes too:  During this process 
     I found out I had a stored code 45 (rich exhaust).  This in itself 
     doesn't worry me, and I probably won't even do anything unless it 
     recurrs.  My question is when does this code get set?  The check 
     engine light has never been on that I've seen.  Does this code get set 
     without tripping the light, or was I just not looking at it or perhaps 
     outside the car when it lit and then went out?
     
     Thanks in advance!
     
     Tom L.
     tlentz@teknon.com

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 18:10:56 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Return on 400 engine vacuum post 

     It certainly sounds like something heat related.  I don't think vapor 
     lock would kill a running engine though.  If that car has HEI my guess 
     would be that your HEI module is failing when it gets hot.


______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Return on 400 engine vacuum post
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    8/20/96 5:19 PM


Dave,
It could be a combination.  Another Thing -----> I have had the car totally 
die on my while driving for no apparent reason twice so far in the last four 
months.  I let it sit for a minute or two, and it starts right back up again, 
but only after I let it sit.  I was told this could be Vapor Lock, what do 
you think?  Or, possibly attributed to this vacuum thing?
     
                                                    Craig Dobbins

------------------------------

From: Rocketeer <bparker@nmsu.edu>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 01:21:00 -0300
Subject: Re: Restoration Info

> Has anyone out there restored the hood hinges to the factory orriginal
> appearanc and how?     Thanks......
> 

The hood hinge finish you're looking for is grey phosphate, look in Hemmings
under Services Offered if recoating is not available in your area.

Boyd Parker (aka Rocketeer)            __|__
                                      |  |  |  Why drive just a car...
1966 4-speed Cutlass Convertible      |  |  |  when you can ride a rocket !
1970 4-4-2 Convertible                |  |  |
                                      | /|\ |
                                      |/ | \|
                                      |__|__|
                                         |

------------------------------

From: grpruett@vt.edu (Greg Pruett)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 16:09:08 -0300
Subject: HRM Muffler test Results

- --=====================_840593348==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

First of all, I'm sorry I posted such a big damn message to the list but I
though everyone might be interested in a performance muffler shootout.

I've sent an attathcment that gives some of the raw data from the shootout.
The only problem is that the info is best formed in a table format and I
don't have that capability with my e-mail, hence the attatchment.  The table
was created with microsoft word and can be viewed using word perfect works
2.0...I think.  It's been my experience that tables hardly ever work with 
e-mail
anyway.  I've pasted in the table from the   attatched document below in
case someone can't read the attatchment.  By all means, try and read the
attatchment since I know the table is gonna be all goofed up when it gets
sent through e-mail.  This is the first time I've tried to send an
attatchment but I test fired this thing first by sending the message to
myself and all seems well.

I'm using eudora 1.4.4.  If anyone would like to tell me if and how I can
convert a word document to an e-mail message I'll be happy to give it a
shot.  I think I'm using that mime thigamajig to sent the attatcment.  I can
also send it using bin hex...I think.  Don't think for a minuit that I might
actually have a clue what i'm talking about here as far as what i'm using
for attatchments.  I just know that I'm sending the attatchment and I think
mime and bin hex has something to do with it.  I hope that this helps the
people who needed it.  I'll try something else if anyone has suggestions.

Well, I'll quit burning up everyone's disk space and get on with it.  

Greg Pruett



- ----From the Hot Rod magazine article in the January 1992 entitled  Merrie
Melodies(tm) (pages 55-58)

- -muffler shootout results-

*The engine used for the dyno testing was a Mark V 7.4 Chevy rat
motor(454ci) with 8.75:1 compression.
*The sound pressure reading  was taken at 2800rpm and 17 inches of manifold
vacuum to simulate a typical highway cruise situation.  The reading was
taken with the dB meter 12 feet from the end of the exhaust pipes.  The
article states that the decible reading is meant to compare the mufflers
with one another and the readings are not a direct indication of how loud
the mufflers will be installed on a car since sound varies with different
pipe sizes, muffler localtion, outlet location, the direction the outlets
are poiting, etc.  The article says that a nomal conversation is 60dB, a
busy intersection will run about 75 dB, and a steel mill  can reach 130 dB.
The article says that as a measure of intensity, every 14 dB increase
doubles the intensity of the sound.
	    Keep in mind that SAE standards evaluates drive-by noise  with a dB
meter located 100 feet away from a car traveling at wide open throttle
perpendicular to the dB meter.  Hot Rod's decibel test was in a closed room
with the dB meter 12 feet from the outlet; less than a car legnth away.
*The mufflers were attatched to a  2 1/2 inch diameter full street exhaust
system.  Including bends simulating a full over-the-axle system.  No H-pipe
was used.


#All peak torque values were measured at 3500 rpm.  All peak hp values are
measured at 5250 rpm exept the /lerator muffler @ 5000 rpm.
# many mufflers are offered with different types of inlet/outlet
configurations so consult your dealer.
# inlet and outled  diameters also vary, so once again, consult your dealer.
#MSRP prices are just that, manufacture recommended, so the can often be
bought cheaper.
#Some words in the table have been cut short to save space but I think
evrything is still intelligeble.  Let me know if there is something that you
can't figure out. Let me know if there is a figure that doesn't quite sound
right, there might be a typo.  Allthough I've proofread and  I think i've
eliminated all of the 975  inch wide  mufflers.  (grpruett@vt.edu)  

Muffler & part #	peak tq 
/hp	back--pressure(psi)	soundpressure(db)	shape
&dimens.	MSRP	material & coating	Inlet/outlet
header&openpipe	467/419	0	115	NA	NA	N/A	NA
AP Xlerator 212212	4699/411	1.95	105	rectangle4 
1/8x11.5x23 5/16	N/A	mild
steel	side in center out
borla 40595	474/419	0	114	oval 4.25 
x7.5x16	291.61	stainless steel	center in
cnter out
borla 40600	474/420	0	112	round 
6x6x16	291.61	stainless steel	center in
cnter out
Flow--master 
42550HP	472/415	1.45	110	rectangle4.75x10x14	104.80	mild 
steel
center in cnter out
Hedman	462/405	2.14	104	oval 
4.5x9.75x14	34.86	mild steel	side in cnter out
Hooker21106	468/410	1.84	110.5	oval 
4.25x9.75x14	64.50	mild steel w/ceramic
coating	side in centr out
ThrushCVX 46152	471/410	0	109	oval 
4.5x10.5x15	85.95	mild steel w/powdr
coating	side in centr out
Thrush 44132 tough truck 
turbo	473/413	1.45	103	oval 
4.5x10.5x21	30.81	mild
steel aluminized		side in center out
Thrush sonic turbo 45122	467/409	1.14	108	Oval 
4.25x9.75x14	38.65	mild steel
withpowder coating	side in center out
Super Trapp 5452519	461/400	1.43	112	cone 
19x5	179.95	stainless steel	center
in baffled out
Walker super turbo 
17734	470/410	1.2	108.5	oval4.25x9.75x14	53.01	mild 
steel
aluminized	side in side out
Walker hemi super turbo 
473/41217749	473/412	.9	100.5	oval4.5x9.75x20 
	59.64
Mild steel aluminized	side in side out
							





Attachment Converted: C:\FETCHES\MUFFLER.DOC

Insert philosophical and/or amusing phrase here-----------

- --=====================_840593348==_
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="MUFFLER.DOC"; 
x-mac-type="42494E41"; x-mac-creator="6D646F73"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="MUFFLER.DOC"
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- --=====================_840593348==_--

------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 02:33:20 -0300
Subject: Re: build sheet location 

My '67 Cutlass/Sup convert had it right under the carpet at the beginning of
the back seat (Calif. luckily & no water leakage to ruin) - our '70 Chevelle
had it in approx. the same back seat general location, but my '70 Super Bee
had it in the glove box with the original owners manual (they'd stapled all
together)  Havent searched through my '67 Delta yet but as far as I've ever
heard, all are SUPPOSED to have one - S*O*M*E*W*H*E*R*E....of course I'm
sure theres those instances when the guys on the line misplaced or dropped
or just.......?
>
>
>
>
Sincerely


Lisa Madsen

Heavy Metal Forever - '67 Delta 88 & '72 Vista Cruiser

Please E-Mail me at-----:  Lisa@hotglass.com

My Web-Page-----:  http://exo.com/~jht/olds/lisa.htm

------------------------------

From: spud@kudonet.com (Spud)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 03:00:39 -0300
Subject: Re: Race Rockets (Carb Information)  

>DESIMONEP@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> << I read somewhere that the max cfm rating a 350 can take is somewhere
>> around ~550. So
>>  don't be getting these 750-800 cfm double pumpers as they will work great
>> upto 600 cfm for
>>  the 350, after that it's all wasted. >>
>> 
>> I have the new Edelbrock 850 cfm Rochester on my car, and in the manual it
>> says the carb will work on 305 cubic inches and larger to 500+ HP.
>
>Well I have to get that material to be exact on the wording, however I stil
remain that a 350 
>or smaller breathes to a max cfm rating. I think the info said about 550
cfm, after that point 
>it cannot breath anymore.
>
>Regards
>Fernando Proietto

I have a book called _Holley Carburetors, Manifolds and Fuel Injection_, by
Mike Urich and Bill Fisher, published by HP Books.  In Chapter 1, "Engine
Requirements," they have a set of charts that are useful here.  One in
particular has airflow -vs- rpm, with several lines (lines, not curves and
that seems off) plotted for CID.  According to this chart, a 350 CID
*theoretically* pulls

        200 CFM @ 2000 rpm
        405 CFM @ 4000 rpm
        610 CFM @ 6000 rpm
        820 CFM @ 8000 rpm.

Of course, that's theory, if an engine was an ideal air pump.  There are a
huge number of factors that will restrict air flow, all through the
intake-to-exhaust path.  Also, there are mechanical limitations on how fast
an engine will turn, etc.

FWIW.


Spud     "Fart proudly."
'86 FXST   --Benjamin Franklin
'73 Delta 88
'79 LeBaron

------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 03:05:00 -0300
Subject: Re: '69 H/O 

Beautiful car - the best year (in my opinion).  Everyone at work is tired of
looking at the issue sitting in my office though (being the uneducated -car
wise- lot that they are.  But I just smile & sigh and WISH WISH WISH (passed
one up for $1700 in 1979 - yeah, how stupid was that!@!)

Hindsight is 20-20 & my eyes are 300-500?

>
>
Sincerely


Lisa Madsen

Heavy Metal Forever - '67 Delta 88 & '72 Vista Cruiser

Please E-Mail me at-----:  Lisa@hotglass.com

My Web-Page-----:  http://exo.com/~jht/olds/lisa.htm

------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 03:14:43 -0300
Subject: Re: Rislone User 

My '67 Cutlass was maintained (via my ex-father in laws advice to my
ex-husband, blah blah) with Rislone included with every oil change.   When
we pulled the motor apart at 160,000 that 'Creature from the Black Lagoon'
buildup common on the bottom of the intake was approx. 1/16" thick & the
bottom of the oil pan also showed minimal sludgy buildup.  We pulled apart
probably 6 other motors from approx. '67-'70 over the next 4-5 yrs. and they
were in terrible sludge shape.  It seems to keep the gunk outta alot of
places & its never harmed any of the 7-12 cars my ex & I have collectively.
We'd recommend it.


>
>
Sincerely


Lisa Madsen

Heavy Metal Forever - '67 Delta 88 & '72 Vista Cruiser

Please E-Mail me at-----:  Lisa@hotglass.com

My Web-Page-----:  http://exo.com/~jht/olds/lisa.htm

------------------------------

From: Esko Ilola <esko.ilola@tele.telebox.fi>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 06:43:20 -0300
Subject: Vent cover and hood questions (98 1964 4DHT Holiday sports sedan)

Hi everybody.

The headache:
   On the passenger side vent cover there is
   a one-way vent that passes the chamber gases
   into carburetor air intake. This vent has
   a place for a small diameter hose (vacuum?) in
   addition to that large breathing tube.
   Unfortunately this hose is out, visiting
   it's cousins somewhere and I can't contact it
   and ask: "Where should you put the other end?".
   Somebody please tell me the story of this hose'.

   I have removed the ventile covers and painted them
   BLACK after hours of cleaning. I really miss that
   sand-blowing machine I used to have.....
   There is no problem in painting them again with
   the correct colour; the only problem is, WHAT
   COLOUR. The covers had a silver paint on them
   and I'm sure that was not the original colour.

   I'm intending to put the covers back this
   afternoon (about the time you guys wake up for
   your breakfast). I have new sealings and the
   washers for the screws. Should I apply any
   silicone somewhere or are the sealings good
   as they are? The covers are not misformed.
   What I'm asking is that you let your morning
   coffee cool down and answer my silly question.

   In Finland we have only ONE Ninety Eight 1964.
   Total of Oldsmobiles from year 1964 (all models)
   is only 14. So, is there any other owners of this
   same vechile in this list? This model was the
   most popular of all Oldsmobiles at year 1964 so
   there should be SOMEONE. Please stand up!
   Since this the oldest I've seen was a '59 but
   that was not discussed much, just mentioned.

   The driver side near-headlight is pointing too
   high. How can it be lowered. I have studied
   my shop-manual and pushed my head into the motor
   compartment with no answer. I am not willing to
   disassemble the whole grille, just a simple lamp
   adjustment would do fine.

   There is a car identifying plate on the opening
   of the driver door. Is there another plate somewhere
   else? 

The tip:
   Want to know about oil additives, read this.
   http://riem.com/disk$user_disk1/http/Snake_Oil.txt

The story:
   In Finland our government checks our cars in a
   yearly basis. (New cars checked first time after
   three years).

   In the check they inspect almost everything vital
   like brakes, steering, linkage, suspension, you
   name it.

   Basically I think this is a good idea but if you
   have a rare car like my wife (it's actually my
   wife who owns our car), the inspection may be
   a trouble.

   We had this inspection last monday and we didn't
   make it because:
   - the driver side near-headlight points too high
   - the engineer could not find the "other" identifier
     plate (was it never there?).

The end :-).

- -- 
**********************************************
* Esko Ilola                                 *
* Email esko.ilola@tele.telebox.fi           *
* X400  G=esko S=ilola O=tele A=mailnet C=fi *
* Tel.  +358 2040 3439                       *
* Mail  Ukonkivenpolku 7B5                   *
*       01610 VANTAA                         *
*       FINLAND                              *
**********************************************
* Oldsmobile 98  1964  4D HT                 *
**********************************************

------------------------------

From: Ernie Marinko <ernie.marinko@yale.edu>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 07:29:52 -0300
Subject: Cylinder Heads 

Has anyone installed big block cylinder heads in a Cutlass (71) with power
brakes, with the motor in the car?  It looks like I will have some
interference with the brake booster.  I would like to do this without
opening the brake lines and removing the master cylinder.  How can I remove
just the brake booster while leaving the master cylinder with the brake
lines attached?     

If the 455 is a 39 degree block how can I tell if the early series heads I
have are from a 45 degree motor?  I don't want to install them and find out
I have clearance problems with the push rods.

------------------------------

From: Fernando Proietto <proietto@dow.on.doe.ca>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 18:48:13 -0300
Subject: Re: Late model timing Q's

Tom,
	computerized cars.....hmmm...O.k. This is the thing, generally, 
without fully knowing what the 
'84 computer controls like, you can't adjust the timing on computerized cars. 
You really shouldn't. The 
timing mark jumps around because thats the computer constantly, maybe 1000 
times/sec. adjusting the 
timing as per the operation of the engine. Why can't you move the dist, 
because it's not supposed to be 
moved. On your engine I think you have a magnetic crank sensor that gets 
triggered evertime the crank 
moves passed TDC. That's what triggers the ignition. Your distributor only 
acts as a medium to transfer 
the spark to the appropriate cylinder. Later in years they took the dist. out 
and are using electronic 
ignition system with no dist. required. 
	On some cars with computers you can move the distributor to set the 
timing but it must be set 
according to spec and you can't just say well I want to advance it a little 
for more power. The computer 
expects it to be in a certain place or else too far advanced and the system 
will try and advance some 
more knocking occurs, the knock sensor retards the timing and the cycle starts 
over again. Not a very 
good way of treating the engine.  
	Your probably get that rich check code because the O2 sensor put it 
there. When was the last time 
you changed the O2 sensor. Generally 80K km is the norm.
	If you want the timing to be more steady on idle just make sure the 
engine breathes clearly and 
all is clean and new, like, rotor, cap, air filter, oil, TBI/TPI system. 
That's it.
- -- 
Regards
Fernando Proietto

------------------------------

From: Esko Ilola <esko.ilola@tele.telebox.fi>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:52:28 -0300
Subject: The hood insulation pad, winter tires and delete button

I have a hood insulation pad which is a bad
condition. Every time I check the transmission
fluid, I get my soulder dirty just by touching
it. That is not the purpose of this piece of
material.

What material is it anyway ?

What would be the original colour for my car ?

The original clips are in place so that I know
how to install it.

The winter will come after about 2 months here in
Finland. I have decided to buy new tires for
winter. Yes, we will drive our car all year long.

Does any of you northern guys have idea of
what kind of tires to use ?

In my shop manual there exists many handy-looking tools.
These tools are identified by a code J....xxxyz.
Where could I get these tools?

- -- 
**********************************************
* Esko Ilola                                 *
* Email esko.ilola@tele.telebox.fi           *
* X400  G=esko S=ilola O=tele A=mailnet C=fi *
* Tel.  +358 2040 3439                       *
* Mail  Ukonkivenpolku 7B5                   *
*       01610 VANTAA                         *
*       FINLAND                              *
**********************************************
* Oldsmobile 98  1964  4D HT                 *
**********************************************

------------------------------

From: Chris and Robin <cya442@erols.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:11:22 -0300
Subject: Re: Exhaust shop recommendations

Todd Morris wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Listpeople in the Wash,DC metro area--can anybody recommend a good exhaust 
shop.  Show quality
> not needed, just a shop that does solid performance oriented work at 
reasonable price.
> thanks
> 
> Todd Morris
> 71 442

AA Speed Shop in Woodbridge is outstanding! Only ones around that bend 
there own pipes, that I know of.  They put a 2.5" exhaust on mine  
('68 442) about a year ago, excellent work, ask for Robert.

Chris M.
cya442@erols.com

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:10:23 -0300
Subject: Re: Vent cover and hood questions (98 1964 4DHT Holiday sports sedan) 

At 05:43 AM 8/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi everybody.
>
>The headache:
>   On the passenger side vent cover there is
>   a one-way vent that passes the chamber gases
>   into carburetor air intake. This vent has
>   a place for a small diameter hose (vacuum?) in
>   addition to that large breathing tube.
>   Unfortunately this hose is out, visiting
>   it's cousins somewhere and I can't contact it
>   and ask: "Where should you put the other end?".
>   Somebody please tell me the story of this hose'.

Hmmm, that sounds like a PCV (Positive Crankcase Ventilation) valve. This
system was designed to burn all the blowby gasses that got past the piston
rings into the crankcase. There was an air intake in one valve cover
(usually attached to the air cleaner), and a one-way check-valve (the PCV
valve) in the *other* valve cover, with a small-diameter hose that was
attached to a similar-sized fitting on the base of the carburetor. Is this
the type of system on your '64? Previously, the crankcase was just vented to
the atmosphere; I wasn't aware that PCV was found as early as '64.

Interestingly, drag racers use a kind of "Super-PCV" system, where they
depressurize the crankcase by using a small smog-pump run by a fan belt.

>   I have removed the ventile covers and painted them
>   BLACK after hours of cleaning. I really miss that
>   sand-blowing machine I used to have.....
>   There is no problem in painting them again with
>   the correct colour; the only problem is, WHAT
>   COLOUR. The covers had a silver paint on them
>   and I'm sure that was not the original colour.

Hmmm, if you've got the 394 V-8, would your engine orignally be green?

[snip of things I can't speak about]

>   The driver side near-headlight is pointing too
>   high. How can it be lowered. I have studied
>   my shop-manual and pushed my head into the motor
>   compartment with no answer. I am not willing to
>   disassemble the whole grille, just a simple lamp
>   adjustment would do fine.

There should be a screw just above or below each headlight facing forward
(there would also be one on the side) for vertical adjustment


- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
- - 1978 Electra Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:10:08 -0300
Subject: Re: Need help with '69 Toro stereo; and WD-40, the miracle tool! 

At 03:48 PM 8/20/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Robert J. Barry wrote:
>> 
>> Then I noticed a *huge* cable coming off the back of radio, leading to 
>> what I previously thought was part of the Comfortron system.  It 
>> apparently is some sort of factory amp, with a cable having about a 
>> dozen pins connecting it to the radio, and the rear-seat speaker coming 
>> off this separate unit.
>
>May be the "Reverberation Amplifier for Rear Seat".  That's the only 
>reference I've found (in a 64 WonderBar Manual) to a external amp so far. 
>The Reverb/Amp is a non-descript box with heat sinks (not soaks!) on 
>one end for the output transistors.  Can you find any part numbers on it?

That's exactly like what mine seems to be. There is a heavy-duty cable
coming directly out of the upper corner on the back of the radio with about
a dozen pins in a circle on the end that plugs into the connector on the
box. The only thing coming out of the box is the output for the rear
speaker. Seems like overkill for that small speaker in back, since this box
is about the size of a small PC!

>The Reverb/Amp uses one SPEAKER output from the radio, runs it through a 
>spring-reverb unit then amplifies it for the rear speaker.

Yup, looks like this does that. With those 12 pins, however, it looks like
this thing could also be driving the front speaker as well. Of course, the
Shop Manual for my '69 doesn't mention any such beast.
 
>> Could this separate amp be the culprit?
>
>Maybe but my stuff shows the front speaker as coming directly off the 
>radio and NOT through the Reverb/Amp.  If that is so, than your lack of 
>output points to the radio rather than the other amp.
>
>The 66 Toro and Mike

OK, now the question becomes "What stereo/cassette would fit directly where
the old unit did, without cutting the dash or looking too small?" I've seen
some radios that are designed to fit into the stock openings on musclecars,
but what fits on the Toronado? I don't want to put it in the glovebox, hang
it below the dash, or put it under the seat.

Might there be an entirely remote system that I could mount in the trunk?
Maybe some big bass speakers behind the rear seat, some midrange/tweeters
behind the speaker grille on the rear seat and dash?

Oh, yeah, I don't have a wheelbarrow full of money for this either.

What would *you* do?

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
- - 1978 Electra Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:10:17 -0300
Subject: Re: HRM Muffler test Results 

At 03:09 PM 8/20/96 -0400, you wrote:
>First of all, I'm sorry I posted such a big damn message to the list but I
>though everyone might be interested in a performance muffler shootout.

Greg,

Thanks for the posting. The attachment came out great! I converted it with
WP6.0, and the table is fine; you're right about tables in e-mail, so good job!

I think I may go with the Walker hemi super turbo 17749; not only was it the
quietest, but it also put out the most power! (well, the Borlas beat it by 1
hp, but they were *twice* as loud!)

Hmmm, maybe the image on the street will change to people thinking the
*quietest* cars have the most power...  ;)

btw, I've been using Eudora Light 1.5.2; nice program, if you're coming over
from AOL... (no, please, don't start an e-mail thread! I don't want to get
flamed and bounced off the list!) ;)

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
- - 1978 Electra Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:10:20 -0300
Subject: Re: Late model timing Q's 

At 04:48 PM 8/20/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>     I quickly checked the timing two weeks ago on my '84 Hurst/Olds and 
>     noticed it was retarted a few degrees (read 17, should be 20).  
>     Finally I managed to find a "round tuit" and went to adjust it to 

Man, all the shops around me only carry the square tuits! Give me the
address of where you got the round tuit; maybe they do mail order?  ;)

>     proper specs tonight.  Two problems cropped up, and I was wondering if 
>     anyone had any ideas.  I've adjusted the timing on several Olds 
>     engines before, but none computerized, so yes I did the obvious things 
>     like loosen the hold-down nut and short the ALDL diagnostic terminal.
>     
>     1) The timing isn't rock steady, it jumps back and forth by about a 
>     degree.  Is this cause for alarm?  What could be the cause?  Worn 
>     timing chain or something as simple as needing a new cap and rotor?  
>     If I speed up the engine just 1 or 200 RPM the timing steadies out.

That's the timing chain oscillating. I didn't notice this on my 403 until I
rebuilt it with a steel chain, and then discovered what a *rock-steady*
timing mark should look like! Sorry it isn't the cap and rotor...
     
>     2) The $%*&ing distributor won't budge!  I didn't get the timing 
>     adjusted because I can't move the bloody thing.  Any ideas why, and 
>     what I can do about it?  I soaked the base with WD-40 and a half hour 
>     later it still wouldn't budge even with a hammer (I didn't hit it too 
>     hard though since it's only made of pot metal).  It doesn't look 
>     corroded back there, everythings in pretty good shape visually.

I don't know about the late model ones, but the earlier Olds distributors
had a square section of the housing, that you could supposedly get a large
adjustable wrench around to give you some leverage (if you can find the room
in there). Those things do get _stuck_ sometimes!

Sorry, I can't help out on the computer; only time I had a computer in a car
was when I moved my 386 to my new apartment...

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
- - 1978 Electra Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:39:54 -0300
Subject: Re: Cylinder Heads 

At 06:29 AM 8/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Has anyone installed big block cylinder heads in a Cutlass (71) with power
>brakes, with the motor in the car?  It looks like I will have some
>interference with the brake booster.  I would like to do this without
>opening the brake lines and removing the master cylinder.  How can I remove
>just the brake booster while leaving the master cylinder with the brake
>lines attached?     

I changed the head gaskets on my '70 Cutlass Supreme with a 455, A/C and
power brakes without having to remove the booster. The only trick I remember
is that you had to have the bolts in the head when you go to put it on the
block, because there is interference in getting them in the holes once the
head is installed (mostly a problem with the A/C airbox)

>If the 455 is a 39 degree block how can I tell if the early series heads I
>have are from a 45 degree motor?  I don't want to install them and find out
>I have clearance problems with the push rods.

Well, A and B heads are 425 units, though they may be Toro heads. E and
later heads are all from 39 deg. blocks. '67 C non-Toro heads would be from
a 45 deg. block, though all other C heads would be from 45 deg. blocks. I'm
not familar with the specific casting numbers, though.

This sounds like good FAQ info...


- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
- - 1978 Electra Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 03:44:48 -0300
Subject: Re: Vent cover and hood questions (98 1964 4DHT Holiday spor 

     Sounds like the PCV valve.  It may be different on a '64 (I've never 
     gotten a close look at anything that old) but all the ones I've seen 
     attach to a big-old vacuum port on the front (usually lower center) of 
     the carburetor.  This is not something that _must_ be hooked up, as 
     long as the PCV valve is there it will just be venting to the 
     atmosphere.
     
     Usually there are phillips screws on the top and one side of the 
     headlights.  The top one aims it up (screw in) or down (screw out) and 
     the side one aims side to side.  They can be identified from the 
     screws that hold the headlight in place because they have springs on 
     them to keep them from vibrating loose.


______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
Subject: Vent cover and hood questions (98 1964 4DHT Holiday sports s
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    8/21/96 3:18 AM


Hi everybody.
     
The headache:
   On the passenger side vent cover there is
   a one-way vent that passes the chamber gases 
   into carburetor air intake. This vent has
   a place for a small diameter hose (vacuum?) in 
   addition to that large breathing tube. 
   Unfortunately this hose is out, visiting
   it's cousins somewhere and I can't contact it 
   and ask: "Where should you put the other end?". 
   Somebody please tell me the story of this hose'.
     
   The driver side near-headlight is pointing too 
   high. How can it be lowered. I have studied
   my shop-manual and pushed my head into the motor 
   compartment with no answer. I am not willing to 
   disassemble the whole grille, just a simple lamp 
   adjustment would do fine.
     

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:38:15 -0300
Subject: Re: Need help with '69 Toro stereo; and WD-40, the miracle tool!

Robert J. Barry wrote:
> 
> OK, now the question becomes "What stereo/cassette would fit directly 
> where the old unit did, without cutting the dash or looking too small?" 

I'd pull the radio and take it shopping.  You can prolly find a decent 
replacement just about anywhere.  There are two basic styles of radios: 
the full faceplate type and the removable faceplate with ADJUSTABLE 
knobs.  You want the second type.  These will come with a full faceplate 
which can be removed leaving only the tuner/cassete door with two knobs 
floating on either side.  You can loosen the knob shafts and slide them 
in and out to match the dash holes.

If you want an example, most of Radio Shack's are full face plate but the 
"Digital tuning, auto-stop, clock" (12-1997) and the "Mini-size in-dash 
Stereo" (12-2001) are examples of removable faceplate radios.  Not 
hawking R/S, just a convenient example.

Don't get too wrapped up with the power output of the replacement -- you 
can always add power boosters as needed.  Besides, a modest radio with a 
hidden monster amp is less likely to attract theives.

> Might there be an entirely remote system that I could mount in the 
> trunk?

Yeah, but they're not cheap.

> Maybe some big bass speakers behind the rear seat, some 
> midrange/tweeters behind the speaker grille on the rear seat and dash?

Oh, get down, get funky!

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:48:06 -0300
Subject: Re: Toroheads, you gotta read this!

PHartlieb@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  > "yeah, I've been looking for one of those rare factory dual 4bbl
>  > intakes which came on some Toronados"
> 
> Maybe this is one of those rare 3-on-the-tree-Toro features?

After much research, I've discovered that the dual-quad 
was only produced for the manual transmission Toronados.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:52:29 -0300
Subject: Req'd CFM 

... (snip)...According to this chart, a 350 CID *theoretically* pulls
          
        200 CFM @ 2000 rpm
        405 CFM @ 4000 rpm
        610 CFM @ 6000 rpm
        820 CFM @ 8000 rpm.
          

          As Spud correctly noted, this chart is for ideal conditions 
          only and will be modified by may factors.  Virtually all of 
          them result in a lower max airflow.  First is volumetric 
          efficiency, which will be somewhat lower than 100% for a 
          relatively stock street-driven 350.  Secondly, consider the 
          RPM range in which you plan to do the most driving, 
          typically in the 1500-4000 RPM band.  A larger carb will 
          produce higher peak HP numbers at the expense of mid-range 
          power (more useable in the real world) and mileage.  While 
          it is true that Q-jets can flow in excess of 800 cfm, the 
          air valve above those humongous secondaries helps regulate 
          this flow to match engine requirements.  A vacuum secondary 
          Holley will do the same thing, but now you are paying more 
          for cfm you really don't need.  Better plan is to buy the 
          carb your engine really needs and lie about the cfm... :)
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30
          

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 03:59:48 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Late model timing Q's 

     Both the sticker on the fan shroud and the Chilton's manual say to 
     short the ALDL terminal and then set the base timing as you would on 
     any other car.  If I understand correctly, by shorting the ALDL 
     terminal I'm effectively disabling the computer so I only see the base 
     timing.  I'm sure the distributor has to move like any other, 
     otherwise why the holddown clamp?  You have to be able to adjust it 
     when you build the engine too.  I can't adjust the timing curve 
     without changing PROMs, but I can adjust the base timing.
     
     There's no crank sensor on this engine, but there is a knock sensor 
     and an Electronic Spark Control (ESC) module.  Neither should be 
     having any effect when the ALDL diagnostic terminal is shorted.
     
     Here's a long shot. . . does anyone know where I can get detailed PROM 
     information for the car's computer?  It'd be nice to be able to use a 
     PROM burner and tweak my own chips.
     
     Tom L.


______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Late model timing Q's
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    8/21/96 6:37 AM


Tom,
 computerized cars.....hmmm...O.k. This is the thing, generally, without fully 
 kn
owing what the 
'84 computer controls like, you can't adjust the timing on computerized cars. 
You
 really shouldn't. The 
timing mark jumps around because thats the computer constantly, maybe 1000 
times/ sec. adjusting the 
timing as per the operation of the engine. Why can't you move the dist, 
because 
i t's not supposed to be 
moved. On your engine I think you have a magnetic crank sensor that gets 
triggere d evertime the crank 

------------------------------

From: Chris Urban <urbanch@magi.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:07:28 -0300
Subject: RE: Race Rockets (Carb Information) 

I have found the the Olds engine likes a lot of carb. I would recomend a =
650 for a relatively stock setup up and a 750 DP Holley for a =
performance application. This is all the carb a 350 should need.

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 06:15:06 -0300
Subject: Re: Vent cover and hood questions (98 1964 4DHT Holiday sports sedan)

Robert J. Barry wrote:
> 

> 
> >   The driver side near-headlight is pointing too
> >   high. How can it be lowered. I have studied
> >   my shop-manual and pushed my head into the motor
> >   compartment with no answer. I am not willing to
> >   disassemble the whole grille, just a simple lamp
> >   adjustment would do fine.
> 
> There should be a screw just above or below each headlight facing forward
> (there would also be one on the side) for vertical adjustment
> 
> -----------
> - Bob Barry



Don't confuse the screws that hold the stainless headlight ring (3) to 
the bucket w/the screws (2) that adjust the light position.  The 
adjusting screw will be at 6 O'clock for the up & down motion of the 
headlight & at 9 O'clock for the side to side motion.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

PS:  My 1963 Dodge has a PVC valve - the '62 doesn't.

------------------------------

From: Mike Hall <mikehal1@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:27:14 -0300
Subject: Re: Woodward Dream Cruise with thanks (long)

Mark Prince writes:
>I would like to thank Mike Hall, Brian Lorway and Robert Lawrence for 
>meeting me at Northwood Shopping center.

To Mark:

It was a pleasure to meet you and "the group". That is a good bunch of 
Oldsmobile friends that you chum around with, lots of experience there. I 
look forward to the "Race Rockets" chapter of OCA, I'll send some e-mail 
direct to you.

Kudo's to your restoration skills, that is one of the finest W-30's I 
have ever seen, and a mean, mean sounding Oldsmobile at that. You know, I 
just HAVE to have a 3" exhaust system now...

I don't know how clear I made it but I had to leave early as I was taking 
my family to Cedar Point and Sea World in the morning. I had plenty of 
packing, prepping the house, etc. to do before I left. I sure wish I 
could have stayed longer as I enjoyed the comraderie. I look forward to 
next years event as well as any future "Race Rockets" events.

To Brian,

It was a pleasure to meet you. A fine W-30 that you have there. I can't 
but help to think that is the same W-30 that I saw For Sale when I lived 
in Dorr, MI. I hope to see you again at a meet soon.

To the group:

This was the first year that I have gone to the Woodward cruise. For 
those who missed it, what a event! I thought it was crowded with 
muscle-cars, street-rods, classics of all kinds when I left... I saw live 
shots on TV that night and WOW, I wish I could have stayed, it looked 
like it quadrupled in size! Let's plan a Oldsmobile list trip to the 
Woodward cruise next year, Whaddya think?

To the Toro guys/gals....

I did not see ONE Toro at the cruise, we need to do better next year!


Michael R. Hall                                  Ortonville, Michigan
E-Mail: mikehal1@ix.netcom.com                   OCA #17903
The Oldsmobile Stable:    
     1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass S, 380 horses of pure Mondello fun...
     1991 Oldsmobile Eighty-Eight Royale Broughm, the classy one...

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:26:30 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Late model timing Q's 

>     Both the sticker on the fan shroud and the Chilton's manual say to 
>     short the ALDL terminal and then set the base timing as you would on 
>     any other car.

Huh. Must have changed from '82 to '84, then; on my '82 I recall it said
to disconnect the four-wire plug from the distributor before setting the
base timing (which is really all you _can_ set), but nothing about shorting
the ALDL connector.

>  If I understand correctly, by shorting the ALDL 
>     terminal I'm effectively disabling the computer so I only see the base 
>     timing.

Well, yes and no; shorting the test lead to ground puts it into diagnostic
mode, activating all solenoids (including mixture control) and doing 
something with signal inputs that I don't remember (overriding with a 50%
signal input or some such). It may also kill the timing adjustments, yes.

> I'm sure the distributor has to move like any other, 
>     otherwise why the holddown clamp?  You have to be able to adjust it 
>     when you build the engine too.  I can't adjust the timing curve 
>     without changing PROMs, but I can adjust the base timing.

Which is indeed all you're supposed to set.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:43:02 -0300
Subject: Re: Toroheads, you gotta read this!

Mike,
I'm not a Toro person, but I appreciate learning about these old cars. I had 
never heard about a dual quad Toro, let alone one with a standard trans. I 
have 
a new water pump, that I picked up cleaning out a dealership, and it is listed 
as a non air toro. Can't imagine that someone would put up the money to buy 
one 
of those expensive cars and not have air.

Art Fuller

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:33:59 -0300
Subject: Re: The hood insulation pad, winter tires and delete button 

>In my shop manual there exists many handy-looking tools.
>These tools are identified by a code J....xxxyz.
>Where could I get these tools?

Those are special service tools made by companies contracted by GM.
You used to be able to buy them through a GM dealer, but now it seems
you must order them via an (800) (toll-free) phone number only, and
you cannot dial that number from Finland. (Actually this may not matter
since the last time I dialed the number, about three weeks ago, no one
answered. :-)

Anyway, I'm sure we can help you get the tool you need. Which tool are
you interested in? There is probably another company also making it
which sells it in auto parts stores.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Chris Fair <ChrisFair@fairisaac.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:50:34 -0300
Subject: Glowing Gen Light 

Mine glows too, though I have an internally regulated alternator and have
jumped the smaller guage wire with a monster one to the junction block for
charging redundancy.
chris fair

------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:51:28 -0300
Subject: Re: 1968-69 olds parts wanted!!!!

Craig,
I noticed your ad looking for other 68 parts. I have these, I believe, so if 
you 
haven't gotton another source I'll price thee stuff to you.

Art Fuller

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 14:54:00 -0300
Subject: Re: Toroheads, you gotta read this!

mefco@sprynet.com wrote:
> 
> I had never heard about a dual quad Toro, let alone one with a standard 
> trans. 

That's cause there are none.   ;)

Olds did build a prototype dual-quad 425 but to the best of my knowledge 
it never went into production.

> I have a new water pump, that I picked up cleaning out a dealership, 
> and it is listed as a non air toro. 

Dunno, there may be some.  Interesting to note that my build sheet 
indicates the Comfortron Control but not the air conditioner.  ???

> Can't imagine that someone would put up the money to buy one of those 
> expensive cars and not have air.

Prolly a government contract.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: bryce_smith@442.com (Bryceman)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:56:33 -0300
Subject: Re: Cylinder Heads 

>If the 455 is a 39 degree block how can I tell if the early series heads I
>have are from a 45 degree motor?  I don't want to install them and find out
>I have clearance problems with the push rods.

Based on what Joe Mondello and Chris Witt have said, it was my
understanding that the difference in cam bank angle of the 425 and 455
blocks did not have any bearing on the heads. The heads were all
interchangeable.
The cam bank angle issue affects your choice of available camshafts. The
more common angle (39 Degree?) is the 455 cam bank angle and cams can be
had for peanuts. All of Mondellos cams are for the 39 degree angle and sell
for around $100. My recent 425 rebuild included a Crane cam which had to be
custom ground for the 425's 45 degree bank angle at a cost of about $250,
paid in advance.

       Life, Liberty and the "Hot Pursuit" of Oldsmobiles
'66 Dynamic 88 B07 Apprehender  '65 442   '70 Cutlass Convertible
           Email: bryceman@442.com  URL: www.442.com

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:59:16 -0300
Subject: Re: Toroheads, you gotta read this! 

>> Can't imagine that someone would put up the money to buy one of those 
>> expensive cars and not have air.
>
>Prolly a government contract.

...or a car destined for Canada, Alaska or other cold climate. (Hmmm,
I sense a flamewar coming on.  :-)  I rented an '86 Cutlass Supreme
in Minneapolis in the dead of winter with all sorts of nice options
but no rear window defogger. Don't know _what_ they were thinking when
they ordered that one. (Yes, it had a Minneapolis dealer sticker on
the back, too.)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Jeffrey.Easton@add.ssw.abbott.com
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:09:49 -0300 
Subject: Re-upholstering Seats

My front bench seat in the 442 could use a new cover, and I see
that Year One is having a 10% off everything sale this week, so
I've been considering buying one of their seat covers.  Having
never done this type of work before, is it that difficult to re-do
the cover or should I leave it to a professional shop?

Anybody have any comments on the Year One covers?
They claim they are made from the original vendors
materials but are a little thicker, presumably for better
wear protection.  How's the fit and finish when installed?

Is searching for NOS material and having one custom
sewn a better bet?

- -Jeff
jeffrey.easton@add.ssw.abbott.com

1970 442  4-Speed

------------------------------

From: bryce_smith@442.com (Bryceman)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:09:03 -0300
Subject: K&N Filters 

What is the proper method for cleaning and re-oiling a K&N filter?
Also, I was wondering about mixture when using the K&N...
I am supoposed to get alot better air flow with the K&N, wont that serve to
lean out the overall fuel mixture in my Rochester? When I've got the
Apprehender wide open it runs good but seems like it wants MORE fuel, like
it would run even better if it had just a little more (richer) fuel. The
stock secondary metering rods are AU units which are equivilent to stock 70
W30 units.
I was thinking of going a couple of steps richer with the secondary rods
without enlarging the secondary jet orifices to see if that would help WOT
performance. Am I on the right track here? Has anyone tried different rod
hangers?

       Life, Liberty and the "Hot Pursuit" of Oldsmobiles
'66 Dynamic 88 B07 Apprehender  '65 442   '70 Cutlass Convertible
           Email: bryceman@442.com  URL: www.442.com

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 05:07:54 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Toroheads, you gotta read this! 

     That's cause there ain't no such critter.  It's sort of a joke going 
     way back to someone here who had a Toro with the original carburetor 
     (I think he was the original owner too, so he knew this was the 
     correct carb).  They looked up the number on the carburetor in the 
     books and found it was a 3-on-the-tree manual transmission Caddilac.
     
     And to think all these years he thought he was driving a Toro. . .


______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Toroheads, you gotta read this!
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    8/21/96 7:52 AM


Mike,
     I'm not a Toro person, but I appreciate learning about these old cars. 
     I had never heard about a dual quad Toro, let alone one with a 
     standard trans.

------------------------------

From: eric_b_buckner@non-hp-om.cv.hp.com
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:32:12 -0300
Subject: 455

Item Subject: cc:Mail Text
     Hello there olds-mongers,
     Got a question for you....I really want to put a 455 into my '64 F-85 
     deluxe and need to know what model and year Olds would be the best to 
     get it from. Also, I need to know if there are any structural changes 
     I need to make i.e. motor/tranny mounts, frame considerations, 
     steering box location. 
     Thanx for any help you can give. 
     Eric Buckner
     '64 F-85 Deluxe
     Albany, OR

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:40:50 -0300
Subject: Re: 455 

>I really want to put a 455 into my '64 F-85 deluxe and need to know what 
>model and year Olds would be the best to get it from. Also, I need to 
>know if there are any structural changes I need to make e.g. motor/tranny
>mounts, frame considerations, steering box location. 

Depending on what engine you're taking _out_, you might want to put some
beefier front springs in...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: John Harris <John.Harris@rttc.redstone.army.mil>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:46:15 -0300
Subject: 455

Item Subject: Message text
The olds FAQ would be an excellent place to look for the proper year(s)
of 455s.  The address is
http://www.cps.msu.edu/~twomeysh/OLDSFAQ.HTM#MISC

John Harris

------------------------------

From: lawrencr@kostabi.gdls.com (Robert Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:02:11 -0300
Subject: Re: Woodward Dream Cruise with thanks (long)

> I did not see ONE Toro at the cruise, we need to do better next year!

I saw one 66 Toro.  I could tell by the grill with the horizantal bars
reminiscent of the Cord.  That, and I asked the ol'timer adding water
to the radiator.

I saw one other 98, which was an ambulance.  I saw two Delta 88
convertibles (a 74, and a 75, I think).  There was also a mid-60's?
Dynamic 88.  

There were more 442's and Cutlasses that you could shake a stick at.

I didn't keep track of the later model Old's that were cruising.

Mark Prince and his cohorts have an awesome collection of cars.
I think there were 8 442's and a Cutlass S parked in the area.
They drew quite a lot of comments from the crowd.  I'm counting
Brian's W-30 in here, too.

I was almost embarrassed to bring my 98 around.

I understand that I just missed Mike Hall.  I didn't get down
to Mark's area until about 3 PM. 

Woodward was unbelievable.  It was an incredible collection of cars,
a lot of them cruising, at any one time.  There was a cop car at
every street light, but that didn't stop people from doing burnouts.

...of course I got so hyped up I ended up getting a speeding
ticket on the way back to work.

- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Lawrence   | 1970 Oldsmobile 98 Convertible               .^.
lawrencr@gdls.com |  _________,~--,___________\____________     /9|8\
(810) 825-5450    |  |                |~    |        ___   |    \}|{/
Sterling Hts., MI |  =------(-o-)-------------------( o )--=      v

------------------------------

From: lawrencr@kostabi.gdls.com (Robert Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:13:10 -0300
Subject: Re: Need help with '69 Toro stereo; and WD-40, the miracle tool!

> > Cant this speaker be accessed by removing the ashtray assembly and removing
> > the duct work for the A/C?  That would put you directly below the speaker,
> > no?  I think I remember doing this in our '66 a few years ago.  That new
> > speaker was the best part on the whole car.
> > 
> > Paul
> 
> Anyone else have experience with removing front speaker from 66-67 Toros?

I don't know about Toros, but often removing the glove compartment will
give access to a lot of behind the dash area, and it's usually only 6 small 
screws.

- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Lawrence   | 1970 Oldsmobile 98 Convertible               .^.
lawrencr@gdls.com |  _________,~--,___________\____________     /9|8\
(810) 825-5450    |  |                |~    |        ___   |    \}|{/
Sterling Hts., MI |  =------(-o-)-------------------( o )--=      v

------------------------------

From: Dave Voorhis <dave@armchair.mb.ca>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:28:45 -0300
Subject: Re: Toroheads, you gotta read this! 

At 11:43 AM 21/08/96 -0300, you wrote:

> Can't imagine that someone would put up the money to buy one 
>of those expensive cars [Toronado] and not have air.

It happens.  My '67 Toro parts car does not have air, but has all the other
goodies except cruise.  Maybe the original owner bought it for winter use
only; who knows?

Dave Voorhis, '66 & '67 Toros
dave@armchair.mb.ca
http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave

------------------------------

From: lawrencr@kostabi.gdls.com (Robert Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:41:11 -0300
Subject: Re: 1987 olds tornado trofeo

> >There was a small CRT looking display mounted where the radio should have
> >been. Is this some kind of informational display?  What info does it show?
> 
> I think it _is_ a CRT. The Rivieras had them, too. It shows the usual
> stuff in graphic form -- HVAC, sound system... Fan speed is shown with
> a little spinning fan symbol...
> 
> The most interesting part (this is what I remember from reading about the
> Riviera; I assume the Trofeo would be similar if it has the same unit) was
> debug mode, of course. Trigger it by, um... oh, heck, I forget. Holding

One of my friends has a 90 or 91 Trofeo.  (He did not know about the
debug mode.)  It is not just a CRT, it is a touch screen.  It controls
the radio, HVAC, and diagnostics.  It also displays cautions and warnings.
Like, if your turn signal is on for more than 30 seconds.  Nifty!

- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Lawrence   | 1970 Oldsmobile 98 Convertible               .^.
lawrencr@gdls.com |  _________,~--,___________\____________     /9|8\
(810) 825-5450    |  |                |~    |        ___   |    \}|{/
Sterling Hts., MI |  =------(-o-)-------------------( o )--=      v

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #274
********************************
 
