
oldsmobile-digest          Thursday, 11 July 1996       Volume 01 : Number 234


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:26:11 -0300
Subject: "Coke Bottle" Styling?? (WAS Re: NAOC Nationals)

> From: PHartlieb@aol.com
> Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals
> To: oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
> 

>  '64 was the last year of the "square" run that started with the (hardly
> square) '61s.  '65 started the "coke bottle" run that ran thru '68.

To which models are you referring, Paul?  I would hardly call the styling
of my '67 Cutlass as 'coke bottle'... in fact, *I've* observed that '67 was
the last year for the 'squarish' styling of the A-bodies; GM went to the
more rounded style in '68.

FWIW, I've heard the '68 - '83 body style of the C*rv*tt* referred to as
"Coke Bottle".

> They think A-body people are, well, ... unfriendly is a good word.

I've not met folks from the group, but this sounds like simple prejudice.
Why would we be unfriendly?  Unless it's some of the '65 and up A-body folks
who're understandibly a bit peeved because they're being excluded....

>  I can't seem to convince them that my attitude toward their
> cars doesn't change the minute I get behind the wheel of my Cutlass.  I like
> ALL of their cars no matter WHAT I happen to be driving. 

Gotta agree with you here, Paul.  I'd love to park, say, a '55 or '56 88
next to Big Red, but because of funding, space and a wife who limits me to
one toy in the garage... :)

> Paul
> '67 98 Holiday Coupe
> '72 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (my "darker" side)
> 
> 



Tim (who wishes he hadn't been so quick to liquidate his '53 Buick Roadmaster
Riviera back in '81) Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'88 Cadillac Brougham, a.k.a. 'Big Blue' -- Olds 307 Powered!!
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 12:38:56 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals

PHartlieb@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Well, seeing that they have an aversion to anything that's not full 
> size (they don't even like Toronados!)

Whoa!  The Toro's gonna be REAL suprised to find out she's a compact!

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:00:21 -0300
Subject: Re: 1988 Toronado Trofeo

Andrew Smith wrote:
> 
> Is this group just for people who own classic olds? i thought it was
> just a general group.. *shrug*

No, man.  Of course not.  It's just that we spend all our money fixing up 
these old monsters and don't have any bucks left for newer cars.    :(

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:05:03 -0300
Subject: Re: Parts...

Mike Hall wrote:
> 
> This 8-Track is black with a silver label. It is called, "Oldsmobile:
> Complimentary Tape Cartridge". The label shows that it is vintage 1972.

> Andy Williams/My Sweet Lord
> Vikki Carr/ The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down
> The Bill Walker Orchestra/Sunday Morning Comin' Down

:o

Now I think we've finally found out why 8-tracks died out!

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:07:43 -0300
Subject: 69 H/O Side Mirrors

I know, I know, I said I would sign off this morning, but... ONE LAST QUESTION!
The latest issue of muscle car review magazine has an article on the 69 H/O.
One interesting tidbit in this article was the casual mention that Hurst went
over to England to import those unique "double tapered" side mirrors for the
69. This reminded me of something I saw a couple of years ago at the Pate swap
meet. There was a 69 H/O in the car corral that I looked over real good (first
one I had actually seen "in the steel" so to speak). Instantly noticed the style
of the side mirrors. Wandered on down the line up of cars and came across a
Triumph TR6. First thing I noticed was wow, those side mirrors look an awful
lot like the 69 H/O I just looked at. Never thought much about it again until I
saw that article last night. Is there a connection between the two? Could old
english sports cars be a source for these rare items?(instead of just a source
for bad jokes and electrical fires). Let me know today what you think and I 
promise (fingers crossed) that I will be gone tommorrow. ;-)


 				Pat Clark
    				 69 442
    			        400/TH400
    			  clark@abu.dseg.ti.com

     The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.

------------------------------

From: Doug Ahern <doug@cobra.cosmic.uga.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:26:25 -0300
Subject: Re: "Coke Bottle" Styling?? (WAS Re: NAOC Nationals)

Tim Churchill wrote:
> > From: PHartlieb@aol.com
> >  '64 was the last year of the "square" run that started with the (hardly
> > square) '61s.  '65 started the "coke bottle" run that ran thru '68.
> 
> To which models are you referring, Paul?  I would hardly call the styling
> of my '67 Cutlass as 'coke bottle'... in fact, *I've* observed that '67 was
> the last year for the 'squarish' styling of the A-bodies; GM went to the
> more rounded style in '68.
> 
> FWIW, I've heard the '68 - '83 body style of the C*rv*tt* referred to as
> "Coke Bottle".

wait, 66-67 GM A-bodies were considered coke bottle styling. 65 was not, it
was the same box that 64's were.  68-70 Dodge Chargers were also considered
to have coke-bottle styling.  true, 68 was more curvy that 67, but when
the 66/67 body style hit, they did exactly have any 68's to compare it to.

coke bottle styling means the rear 1/3 of the car has a noticable 
curve upward.  and the front fender line dips down until it hits the rear
upward curve of the back 1/3.   the pontiac and buicks are more pronounced
coke bottles but the styling term was applied to all GM A bodies.  68 and
up are coke bottled, but they are curvy.   

compare the 66 chevelle to the 65, compare the 66 olds to the 65, 65's
were straight cut like the 64's.

Doug Ahern      doug@cosmic.uga.edu  1964 F-85 Cutlass 
http://www.cosmic.uga.edu/doug.html  1969 Dart 
Sys Admin, COSMIC, Univ. of Georgia  1974 Satellite ex-cop car

------------------------------

From: "Shokouhi, Mike" <shokouhm@nasd.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:33:07 -0300
Subject: RE: 69 H/O Side Mirrors

I've been living in London, England for the last 11 months, and happen
to be restoring a '69 H/O back in Maryland -real slowly- due to distance
(I've got the f mirrors though).  Ever since I got here I've planning on
visiting junkyards in the hope of finding a field of these rather
expensive mirrors, but was never sure of the type of English car they
were on (most yards here are by make).  If you say you saw them on a
Triumph, that's a great help!  Of course I have 3 weeks left before I
head home -just my luck ;- )

Orders anyone?

Mikee

>
>I know, I know, I said I would sign off this morning, but... ONE LAST
>QUESTION!
>The latest issue of muscle car review magazine has an article on the 69
>H/O.
>One interesting tidbit in this article was the casual mention that
>Hurst went
>over to England to import those unique "double tapered" side mirrors
>for the
>69. This reminded me of something I saw a couple of years ago at the
>Pate swap
>meet. There was a 69 H/O in the car corral that I looked over real good
>(first
>one I had actually seen "in the steel" so to speak). Instantly noticed
>the style
>of the side mirrors. Wandered on down the line up of cars and came
>across a
>Triumph TR6. First thing I noticed was wow, those side mirrors look an
>awful
>lot like the 69 H/O I just looked at. Never thought much about it again
>until I
>saw that article last night. Is there a connection between the two?
>Could old
>english sports cars be a source for these rare items?(instead of just a
>source
>for bad jokes and electrical fires). Let me know today what you think
>and I 
>promise (fingers crossed) that I will be gone tommorrow. ;-)
>
>
> 				Pat Clark
>    				 69 442
>    			        400/TH400
>    			  clark@abu.dseg.ti.com
>
>     The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.
>
>

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 05:34:51 -0300
Subject: Re: 1988 Toronado Trofeo

Andrew Smith wrote:
> 
> Well, i found a 1988 Trofeo for sale. Beutiful condition... The dealer
> is asking for $5288 for it.. i think it sounds pretty good. Anyone know
> where i can find some inforfation on it?
> 
>  Is this group just for people who own classic olds? i thought it was
> just a general group.. *shrug*

Andrew:
For a fine condition Toronado, the price doesn't sound unreasonable to 
me.  Those cars drive & look great.  This place has people who know 
Oldsmobiles - of course I'm just a malingerer & just try to listen.

Did someone tell you that there was an Oldsmobile that wasn't classic?  
Just chalk it off to an election year & the typical lies that are spread 
 about everyone & everything.

I have a 1967 toronado & I love it.  If I had room & a little money, I'd 
own a 1988 Trofeo too.  Congratulations & welcome to the classic Olds 
list.

  
- -- 
SLTG

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 05:46:01 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals

Mike Frederick wrote:
> 
> PHartlieb@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > Well, seeing that they have an aversion to anything that's not full
> > size (they don't even like Toronados!)
> 
> Whoa!  The Toro's gonna be REAL suprised to find out she's a compact!
> 
> The 66 Toro and Mike
> 
> --
>  Mike:

Not everyone feels as you do.  I've heard of one who has to fire-gut the 
interior of his just to get enough room in his toronado.  I'll agree 
that I've never known mine to be cramped, but to each his own. 
- -- 
SLTG

------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:05:19 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals

On Wed, 10 Jul 1996 PHartlieb@aol.com wrote:
 
> If you belong to NAOC, be prepared to be nominated for President in the next
> election.
> 
> Paul
> '67 (still waiting) 98 Holiday Coupe
> 
> 


Is that a threat!  :)


I think your car is a perfect example of what the NAOC is missing by not 
including later model years.  I was at an auction once where a car being 
sold was a '66 98 4-door sedan.  It was light green with a white roof, 
light green interior, and the car looked gorgeous.  I think that the 
full-sized Olds's of the late 60s and early 70s are pretty cars that 
would fit in well with what the NAOC is trying to be about.  So if they 
have to take in a few Cutlasses, well, there's always some chaff with the 
wheat.  (JUST JOKING!)


Dan Gulino

------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:08:54 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals

On Wed, 10 Jul 1996 PHartlieb@aol.com wrote:

> 
> This is what really gets me.  NAOC has modified cars too!  And, they already
> have allowed in '64 442s.  So where's the problem?  Maybe I'm the one that
> can't be reached!
> 
> Paul
> 
> 

This is another excellent point.  The cut-off year of 1964 seems 
completely arbitrary.  If they want to keep the Cutlasses out, they need 
to cut off at 1960.  But by using 1964, they allow in SOME Cutlasses and 
the first year of the 442, but nothing later.  I think a great statement 
would be for about 50 1964 442 owners to show up at an NAOC national meet 
one year.  Don't do anything obnoxious.  Just showing up would make the 
statement to the NAOC about how inconsistent they are.


Dan Gulino

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:11:07 -0300
Subject: Re: 1988 Toronado Trofeo 

At 04:31 AM 7/11/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Well, i found a 1988 Trofeo for sale. Beutiful condition... The dealer 
>is asking for $5288 for it.. i think it sounds pretty good. Anyone know 
>where i can find some inforfation on it?

Pretty neat little car, that Trofeo. It is new enough that you could
probably ask your local Olds dealer about it, and they would actually have a
living salesperson who could give you their recollections on it. I don't
know if the Olds History Center (on the web page) would have info on such a
"new" car.

> Is this group just for people who own classic olds? i thought it was 
>just a general group.. *shrug*

It is a general group, though few newer Olds owners feel as much passion
about (or need as many repairs on) their newer cars. One factor, I believe,
is the excessive "badge engineering" that went on in the '80's: little
difference between, say, a Ciera, a Century or a 6000. The newer cars from
each division are a bit more distinctive, and certain recent performance
Olds' (H/O's, 442's, W-41's and W-42's) have enough unique
parts/engines/spoilers that the owners are looking for comrades.

Furthermore, I think that the general consensus here is that nobody would
turn down a brand-new Aurora, ya know, if someone gave us one. OTOH, you can
buy and insure a couple of classic 442's, plus get a good Toronado for
winter, for the price of a new Aurora. Heck, my '69 Toronado has only cost
me, total, about *one month's* lease payment on an Aurora...

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
- - 1978 Electra Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: Peter Barrett <peterb@kctv.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:19:31 -0300
Subject: (no subject)

unsubscribe oldsmobile peterb@kctv.com

------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:16:54 -0300
Subject: Re: "Coke Bottle" Styling?? (WAS Re: NAOC Nationals)

On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Timothy A. Churchill wrote:
 
> >  '64 was the last year of the "square" run that started with the (hardly
> > square) '61s.  '65 started the "coke bottle" run that ran thru '68.
> 
> To which models are you referring, Paul?  I would hardly call the styling
> of my '67 Cutlass as 'coke bottle'... in fact, *I've* observed that '67 was
> the last year for the 'squarish' styling of the A-bodies; GM went to the
> more rounded style in '68.
> 

Tim,

The "coke-bottle" styling refers to the FULL sized Olds's.  Just compare 
side views of a '64 Dynamic 88 with that of a '65 and you'll see what is 
meant.  Of course, the F-85s retained their squared-off look through 
1967, after which the famous "tear-drop" body style began.



Dan Gulino

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:29:38 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals

Daniel Gulino wrote:
> 
> I think a great statement would be for about 50 1964 442 owners to show 
> up at an NAOC national meet one year.  Don't do anything obnoxious.  
> Just showing up would make the statement to the NAOC about how 
> inconsistent they are.

I love it!  Civil disobedience!  Protests!  THE 60S!!!!  How appropiate!

Get there early and line them up in the first row of parking.  I want 
pictures ... of their faces!

The (outcast) 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:32:34 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals

Lloyd Culp wrote:
> 
> I've heard of one who has to fire-gut the interior of his just to get 
> enough room in his toronado.  

Would that be a certain cheese-head, pyromanic?

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: ndg@traverse.com (Nielsen Design Group)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 12:04:50 -0300
Subject: NAOC '64 cutoff 

>Right, and the current system (at least the current cutoff year of 1964)
>doesn't strike me as making a whole lot of sense, if for no other reason
>than that I don't believe 1964 was one of the big changeover years, was

Could it be that with the '64 cutoff they are banning us 4-4-2 owners?
'64 was, after all, the 1st year for the 4-4-2 option.

Hey, I got it! NAOC really stands for:
Not Allowed: Olds Cutlasses

- -Darren Shroeger
 '68 442 / 4 speed

Nielsen Design Group
114 East Front Street
Traverse City, Michigan 49684
616.946.0925
ndg@traverse.com

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 05:28:29 -0300
Subject: JWO 

     People here have mentioned getting the latest JWO and seeing the 
     web-related article in it.  How long ago were those received?  I 
     haven't received mine yet and am wondering if I should call 'em about 
     it.
     
     I usually get mine a day or two after everyone here, being in 
     Washington state and all.  The mail should be a-gettin' through 
     though, we haven't had an attack by the indians in weeks!  :-)
     
     Tom.

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:35:14 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Car Craft www column 

The August Car Craft issue features a Ch*vy II page at 
www.seas.smu.edu/~cambre.  A Pacer page at k2.scl.cwru.edu/~jdb2/pacer.  
And an AMX page at home.worldweb.net/%7Estoneji/amx.html.

>From the page shots of the Ch*vey II site, CC visited "That Other Nova Site", 
but not Bryce's site, yet.  Hopefully the September issue will have it featured.

Anyone visit the couple of H/O sites?  Here's one that will get you to others: 
http://www.3rdplanet.com./~lamackey/hurst_hp.html.  The official Olds site is 
pretty good!  They definetely did more than a throw it together, and IMVHO :), 
better than any other auto site!

David Brown          OCA #27978         (312) 702-9157
     Check out: www.442.com    www.oldsmobile.com
Send Olds FAQ request to: dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu

- --------------------
The recent issue of Car Craft has a www column featuring three sites.
Suprise, suprise, the first is a Ch*vy (Nova) site.  The great thing is
that in the Netscape 2.x frame on the left is "Bryceman's Olds Page, Olds
Extravaganza"!  I would expect Bryce's page would be featured soon!

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:52:24 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: 1988 Toronado Trofeo 

For used car prices ~1985 to present, check out Edmund's at 
http://www.enews.com/magazines/edmunds/.

They also have the JC Whitnet catalog online!  Didn't puruse it, so beware!

David Brown          OCA #27978         (312) 702-9157
               Check out: www.442.com
Send Olds FAQ request to: dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu

- ------------------
At 04:31 AM 7/11/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Well, i found a 1988 Trofeo for sale. Beutiful condition... The dealer 
>is asking for $5288 for it.. i think it sounds pretty good. Anyone know 
>where i can find some inforfation on it?

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:02:43 -0300
Subject: Toros in yards

I stopped in to visit a 1-leg-in the grave 68 Toro I know of... it's still
right where it was last year, except now the *chrome* wheels are two inches
into the dirt instead of one inch... owner doesn't need to part w/ it, won't
prop it up a bit... go figure.

Another '67 red one I spotted a while back, finally got to talk to the owner,
got it from grandma, not interested in selling, not fixing yet... left a
number, told 'em I have chrome wheels for 'em...
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:06:59 -0300
Subject: Re: 1988 Toronado Trofeo

> 
> At 04:31 AM 7/11/96 -0400, you wrote:
> >Well, i found a 1988 Trofeo for sale. Beutiful condition... The dealer
> >is asking for $5288 for it.. i think it sounds pretty good. Anyone know
> >where i can find some inforfation on it?
> 
>
> 
> > Is this group just for people who own classic olds? i thought it was
> >just a general group.. *shrug*
> 
> It is a general group, though few newer Olds owners feel as much passion
> about (or need as many repairs on) their newer cars. 


I know that I am causing trouble, but should anyone ask if we are 
prejudiced against the "NEW" cars from Oldsmobile?  It sounds a little 
like the NAOC that we have been railing against.  That 1988 is 9 years 
old now & distinctive enough that people wouldn't buy them new. Happily, 
the only comments that I have heard are those of WELCOME!
- -- 
SLTG

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:30:33 -0300
Subject: Re: 1988 Toronado Trofeo

Lloyd Culp wrote:
> 
> I know that I am causing trouble, but should anyone ask if we are
> prejudiced against the "NEW" cars from Oldsmobile?  It sounds a little
> like the NAOC that we have been railing against.

I think there's a big difference between not allowing certain cars and
not having much information on certain car.  Just because there's seems
to be a shortage of info on the 1988 Trofeo doesn't imply any prejudice.

> Happily, the only comments that I have heard are those of WELCOME!

Exactly.  A non-NAOC trait.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Mike Coccagna" <mikec@oz.kis.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:26:42 -0300
Subject: Re: 1988 Toronado Trofeo

> > > Is this group just for people who own classic olds? i thought it
> > > was
> > >just a general group.. *shrug*
> > 
> > It is a general group, though few newer Olds owners feel as much
> > passion about (or need as many repairs on) their newer cars. 
> 
> I know that I am causing trouble, but should anyone ask if we are
> prejudiced against the "NEW" cars from Oldsmobile?  It sounds a
> little like the NAOC that we have been railing against. 

And I thought I was the only one who felt out of place...... :-(

Mike
'91 W-40 Quad442 (too young/small for its name?)

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 12:24:19 -0300
Subject: Re: 1988 Toronado Trofeo 

>>  Is this group just for people who own classic olds? i thought it was 
>> just a general group.. *shrug*
>> 
>
>No, no just classics, though that's what most of us own. We don't seem to 
>have a critical mass of more modern Olds owners here yet, but hang in there.

Yow, I usually don't correct others in public but I'm real certain that was
supposed to say "No, _not_ just classics", right, Greg?  :-)

Re: This business about NAOC blocking out newer (post-'64) cars: This still
has me puzzled. It's not as if blocking the newer cars is going to cause a
sudden _influx_ of older ones suddenly materializing from somewhere, nor
would a group of newer cars cause owners of older ones to scrap theirs. So
I guess I still have some difficulty seeing where the problem is. I _can_
see a problem with lack of income caused by excluding those people (well,
okay, _discouraging_ those people) whose cars had the misfortune of being
less than 32 years old. I would think that a sliding window of 25 years
of age would make sense, ensure a steady flow of new members, and even
be in keeping with what many states and insurance companies consider to
be "antique" status.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Agnessi, Tischa A." <agnessi@mayo.edu> (Tischa Agnessi)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:12:54 -0300
Subject: '67 Delmont 88

For all you Oldsmobile fans. Here's an offer you can't pass up!



FOR SALE: 1967 Oldsmobile Delmont 88

425 Rocket Engine
50K original miles
Four doors
Exterior is gold with cream interior
Very clean, well kept interior
Body is in great shape
Reliable transportation
Has been in car shows in '94

***MUST SELL***

Make an offer.....

Location: Rochester, MN


Reply to:
	
	Tischa Agnessi
	agnessi@mayo.edu

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:11:38 -0300
Subject: REO tucked away

Was visiting the relatives for the Holiday, ya know, when the cars stuff came
up... Seems that pa-in-law's old truck is now decrepit in a relative's back
yard, they just want it to go away... Oh, and he put a '85 Corvette 350 in it,
with earlier heads for carb't induction, and I can probably get it for free.
So, maybe I soon own *2* C*evy engines...

Then it turns out that one of granny's friends has a REO in her garage...
Interesting lead to follow up... maybe with luck her family is car-impaired and
see it as "an old car"... That'd be great, a perfect use for that 455 I just
bought... Or maybe the 'vette motor! Yeah!

Was out at the farm Monday, took lotsa notes, trimmed weeds, had close
encounters with hornets. Trying to get VIN, driver's door won't open, go to
other side, put chemical on top of car, open door, oooops! there's a big ol
nest w/ 3 guards right at the rear edge of the door, and my chemical is now on
the far side. Circle around car, get bottle of Instant Death, apply
liberally...
  Anyhow, will have more info for you folks seeking parts soon as I can
remember where I put that notebook. Bill Culp, B. Brown, any others? Discovered
much to my surprise that counting the '75 H/O, I have 40 car-casses now, though
6 or so are really piles of scrap metal awaiting the time to take them down for
recycling. Friedland?, scam the piles while there? Heh.

Oh, btw, put yer shirts back on, if I were to ever acquire a REO car, I would
do my derndest to keep it totally original... was just kidding y'all.
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Blaine Sanders 5483 <BLAINES@strata3d.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:22:44 -0300
Subject: 350 to 455 conversion - Part 2

About the car:

Ok, I found out yesterday that the car is a '75 (?) Delta 88 Royale.  The
interior is pretty much trashed, but the body is straight.  I didn't notice any
rust.  It has tilt wheel, power steering/brakes/windows.  The headliner
and sun visors are in pretty good shape, but they are that disgusting
green color that nobody likes.  It's a 2-door model.  Anyone want
anything?  I only want the engine, tranny, and axle... and maybe the
power windows.

About the power train:

Yep, it's a 455.  Can anyone give me the original engine specs (i.e. - hp,
tork, etc.)?  Also, can anyone confirm whether or not the TH400 would
have the long shaft or the short shaft, and will it fit in my '72 Cutlass
Supreme without drastic mods?  I looked in my 72-79 Chiltons manual this
morning, but it didn't have the Delta 88.

Thanks!

- -BS

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:12:52 -0300
Subject: Toronotes, incl. vac. adv. Q's 

Well, I just figger 145 messages, plus bounced messages, are not enough for
one day, so I'm going to keep asking Q's about my '69 Toronado

* First and formost, what is the best way to limit the amoung of vacuum
advance on this beast (stock distributor)? I get a pinging under light
throttle, which goes away under a heavy foot or downshifting. Treating the
gas pedal like an on/off switch is *not* an option for me (fun, yes, but not
an option on a long highway drive with wife and kid....). I'm running 93
octane, and will go to octane booster *only* as a last resort. I'd like to
keep the 8 deg. initial timing, since it doesn't ping on hard acceleration.

I've heard of using a screw to limit the amount of advance; does this work?
In addition, does an adjustable vacuum advance (like Crane's) adjust for
vacuum level it opens at, or also for how much it opens?

* Second, are there available any heater control valves for the '69 Toro
with Comfortron? The one with the opening and triangular flange to mount the
water temp sensor? Currently, the sensor is hose-clamped to the outside of
another (non-stock) heater control valve, so it measures the temp of the
housing, not the water. I have the original valve; can that be rebuilt?

* Thirdm, is the Toronado speedometer wildly optimistic, or what? Unless
everybody else only drives 70 mph whan I'm in my Toro, the speedometer seems
about 10-15mph high! I'd imagine I'd have difficulty just swapping out
speedometer gears in the transmission, since there were only a couple ratios
available in the Toros. Any experience here?

* Fourth, my Toro came with the optional factory rubber trunk mat in pale
green (lovely color...). This protected the felt on the bottom of the trunk,
though, and is making the rest of my trunk felt look rather shabby. In
addition, there is nothing covering the rear metal panel, just behind the
taillights; is there a piece with a cardboard backing for this, or should I
just make one up? Is this felt available as a kit? In addition, what is that
rubberized material underneath the felt on the floor of the trunk? Can that
be replaced? Or should I just cover it over? I'd like finally to have a car
I can actually put luggage in (my current parts chaser is carrying around a
rebuilt TH400, a router and some valve covers; can't really throw shopping
bags back there...).

* Fifth, related to the trunk, when I first cleaned it out, I threw away a
piece of packing material the previous owner had left in the trunk. Luckily,
all the pieces to mount the spare tire were in there, or so I thought. When
I looked in the shop manual for how the pieces all went, I discovered that
the "packing material" was actually the styrofoam case for the jack parts!
The piece I have has part of it broken off, but is serviceable; I am,
however, missing the case that slips over it and keeps everthing inside.
Does anyone have one of these jack cases? I could make up a nice wooden case
to replace the pink styrofoam and slipcover case, but would like to stay
original if possible.

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
- - 1978 Electra Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:44:35 -0300
Subject: Re: '67 Delmont 88

> For all you Oldsmobile fans. Here's an offer you can't pass up!
> 
> 
> 
> FOR SALE: 1967 Oldsmobile Delmont 88


Pass....


 				Pat Clark
    				 69 442
    			        400/TH400
    			  clark@abu.dseg.ti.com

     The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:46:13 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Oldsmobile Centennial Info 

          


          
<<    Oldsmobile Centennial will be held in Lansing, MI Aug 
           20-23,1997.  We would like to know if you are interested in 
           coming.  If you would like a form sent to you regarding 
           attending, contact Dave_Byers@Lansing-Online.com with name 
           and address and we will mail one out.  Olds forever!
            >>
          
Joe:
          
I'm confused  -nothing new, but Olds Division has already been informed of my 
possible attendance.  Is this different, related, ??
          
Bob Handren
          
          Bob,
          
          No, just a lack of info on my part.  I had not seen the 
          earlier Olds Div announcement, so I assumed that this was 
          new information.
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 17:55:46 -0300
Subject: Re: REO tucked away

Chris Brown Witt wrote:
> 
> Then it turns out that one of granny's friends has a REO in her 
> garage...

Whoa!  Nice find!


> Bill Culp, B. Brown, any others?

Yeah, me.  One right bumperhorn, please.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: lawrencr@kostabi.gdls.com (Robert Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:58:31 -0300
Subject: Re: Toronotes, incl. vac. adv. Q's 

> * Thirdm, is the Toronado speedometer wildly optimistic, or what? Unless
> everybody else only drives 70 mph whan I'm in my Toro, the speedometer seems
> about 10-15mph high! I'd imagine I'd have difficulty just swapping out
> speedometer gears in the transmission, since there were only a couple ratios
> available in the Toros. Any experience here?
> 
> -----------
> - Bob Barry
> - 1969 Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
> - 1978 Electra Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

Is your odometer accurate?  It may be a problem at the speedometer
end, and not the speedometer gears in the transmission.

I have that problem... well, had that problem... since the cable went
last week the speedometer just reads zero.  Someone mentioned
possible weak magnets in the speedometer?  I don't know how to fix it.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Lawrence   | 1970 Oldsmobile 98 Convertible               .^.
lawrencr@gdls.com |  _________,~--,___________\____________     /9|8\
(810) 825-5450    |  |                |~    |        ___   |    \}|{/
Sterling Hts., MI |  =------(-o-)-------------------( o )--=      v

------------------------------

From: "Dal Allan" <dal_allan@mcimail.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:59:12 -0300
Subject: HELP!_Parts_swap_for_65_98 

> Second, I would install new bushings. Something like polyurethane or
> DelAlum (from Global West). Anybody used poly. bushings?? I hear they
> squeak (unless you use some special grease with a graphite suspension).
> Poly. bushings are MUCH cheaper than the DelAlum, and I am not going to
> race this beast, so I would prefer the poly.

Poly does squeak but PST at 800-247-2288 sells PolyGraphite, which as you 
can tell from the name has graphite embedded in the polyurethane. There may 
be others with a similar formula but PST boasts it is exclusive. 

I can say this based on my experience and that of some others who have dealt 
with PST (Bob Barry was writing about their 403 overhaul kit a while back): 

 - their kits are complete and of excellent quality at very reasonable 
   (almost cheap) prices. 
 - No squeaks yet in my 67 Cutlass ragtop (at least from the suspension, 
   though cowl shake seems to be more pronounced). 
 - Global West's poly is colored and squeaks. 
 - PST Bushings are black (graphite?) so if you are into showing the car 
   you lose no points because they look OEM (it would take a fanatical judge 
   to twig that they are different. The only deficiency on a show car is the 
   sway bar bushings are decidedly non-factory looking, but ADDCO sells poly
   sway bar bushings for around $20 which do look similar to factory. 

Good luck

Dal

------------------------------

From: Michael Blennerhassett <blenner@fhs.csu.McMaster.CA>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:09:53 -0300
Subject: Re: Toronotes, incl. vac. adv. Q's

This is familiar.

On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Robert J. Barry wrote:
> 
> In addition, does an adjustable vacuum advance (like Crane's) adjust for
> vacuum level it opens at, or also for how much it opens?

I use one.  Great for a quick adjust when I have a trailer on, since I 
know 2 turns with an allen key is what I want..  Really wouldnt let the Toro 
knock for long, base timing was 7.5 degrees, don't know what the new engine 
is going to want.
> 
> 	Second, are there available any heater control valves for the '69 Toro
> with Comfortron? The one with the opening and triangular flange to mount the
> water temp sensor?

Yeah, mine leaks, rebuild looks hopeless, let me know if get one!  

Michael Blennerhassett, 1966 Toro

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:17:11 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: NAOC Nationals 

          
1964 was, however, a changeover year, although perhaps not a striking one.  It 
was the last of the boxy, squared-off, slab-sided look. 

          Wasn't 64 the last year of the 303-394 V8?
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W/30
          

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:13:46 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Temperature Gauge.... 307/4Bbl 

          
My understanding is that the HP loss from not using a clutched fan is 
enough to make you want to use a clutched fan.  

          True

And, that the clutch is RPM controlled not temperture controlled.

          False.  It is a temperature controlled clutch.  I think the 
          way they work is that the cavity is filled with silicone, 
          which gets thicker as it gets hot (?).  In fact, the 
          predominant failure mode is that the seal fails and all the 
          silicone leaks out.
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30
          
          

------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:29:29 -0300
Subject: Re: '67 Delmont 88

Pat,
You should have that car for your very own, since your 69 restoral is nearly 
finished.

Art Fuller, President
MEFCO

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:29:46 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: NAOC Nationals 

In a message dated 96-07-10 11:02:38 EDT, you write:
          
<< Personally, I think that they ought to raise it every year so that the 
 most recent year recognized is 25 years old.  Thus, each year they could 
 recognize a new model year and celebrate its officially becoming an 
 "antique" and welcoming it into the club. >>
          
          
If they don't start moving it up the membership will age itself out of a 
club.
          
Bob Handren
          
          Isn't this the same problem Cadillac has with their owner 
          base?
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:16:13 -0300
Subject: Re: "Coke Bottle" Styling?? (WAS Re: NAOC Nationals)

> coke bottle styling means the rear 1/3 of the car has a noticable 
> curve upward.  and the front fender line dips down until it hits the rear
> upward curve of the back 1/3.   the pontiac and buicks are more pronounced
> coke bottles but the styling term was applied to all GM A bodies.  68 and
> up are coke bottled, but they are curvy.   

Ah, I see now.  Still, I don't think it's all *that* dramatic a styling change;
but like you said, they didna have the 68's yet to compare to for styling diffs

...but they do now :)



Tim (who also really likes the '68 and up Cutlasses :) ) Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'88 Cadillac Brougham, a.k.a. 'Big Blue' -- Olds 307 Powered!!
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:52:04 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: NAOC Nationals 

In a message dated 96-07-10 11:06:42 EDT, you write:
          
>Right, and the current system (at least the current cutoff year of 1964) 
>doesn't strike me as making a whole lot of sense, if for no other reason 
>than that I don't believe 1964 was one of the big changeover years, was 
>it? Seems to me like that was an intermediate year in the typical GM 
>3-year (or perhaps 4-year) cycle.
          
Well, seeing that they have an aversion to anything that's not full size (they 
don't even like Toronados!)...


          Did those '64 Toros come with the 3-barrel carb?
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 17:02:34 -0300
Subject: Re: 69 H/O Side Mirrors 

...Is there a connection between the two? Could old english sports cars be a 
source for these rare items?(instead of just a source for bad jokes and 
electrical fires).
          
          Pat,
          
          Sorry to see you go.  My H/O was missing the mirrors when I 
          got it.  I immediately noticed the apparent similarity and 
          yes, the mirror bodies _are_ related.  Unfortunately, as I 
          found out, there are a lot of different versions of this 
          English mirror out there.  I finally got a correct set off 
          of another 69 H/O (along with the missing intake, carb, and 
          air cleaner!!!), and it appears that the H/O uses a much 
          longer base than most of those on the sports cars.  The body 
          is the same, however.
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O (now with mirrors)
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:09:33 -0300
Subject: Re: 67 diff. 

In a message dated 96-07-10 15:57:38 EDT, you write:

<< I checked with Richmond Gear and was told that I would have to stay w/the
 3.08 or higher ratio...I could not go to a 3.55 or 3.7? because I would have
 to replace carrier.
  >>

According to the "rules" that is correct.  But I have used the 3.90 and up
carrier with 3.08 gears with no problems.  That is the opposite of what you
would be doing but I don't see why it wouldn't work the other way as well.
 To set the backlash you would be using a relatively small side bearing shim
pack on one side and an overly large shim pack on the other.  This shifts the
differential over in the rear end and I am sure this is not optimum
axle/spline engagement or retaining cap engagement of the thick pack side
bearing race.  But, I have done it, nothing broke, but I didn't abuse it
either.  I swapped in the 3.08 when a long trip or move was made.

I would not suggest it at all for any heavy use such as frequent drag racing
or use with such hp enhancers such as nitrous.  You have a "cone" posi system
and one of the axels will not be fully engagining the spider gears on one
side.  As I recall it is about 1/4 inch not engaged.  

I also remember that if the carrier is a posi unit, I had to remove (grind)
about 1/4" from the end of axel on the small shim pack side so that it didn't
hit the posi spring pack.  If it is an open unit, no problem. 

This would only make sense if you have an extra axle to butcher up too.  I
believe the "O" axels will work in the "P" carrier so that might be an option
for you.

Depends how desperate you are to get it running again.  You could make the
installation, have the car to drive and keep looking for the correct carrier.
 But it is definitely a "Rube Goldberg" solution. (Does that statement date
me enough?)

One other point.  Anytime you pull an axle mark the position of the axle
bearing race relative to the housing as you pull it out of the housing.
 E.g., mark the "top".  Try to put it back in the same position.  I have
experienced rapid bearing failure, even on bearings that were fairly new when
the axle was pulled, when I just stuck it back in any old way.  I suspect
they take a "set" or wear pattern.  Disturb it and premature failure may
result.  No proof, just a strong suspicion and it isn't a big deal to do.

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 17:05:36 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: NAOC Nationals 

Daniel Gulino wrote:
> 
> I think a great statement would be for about 50 1964 442 owners to show > up 
at an NAOC national meet one year. 

          Uhhh...are there 50 1964 442s still on the road?
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:10:06 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals 

In a message dated 96-07-10 22:45:31 EDT, you write:

<< > Also OCA allows "Modified" Oldsmobiles.
 
 This is what really gets me.  NAOC has modified cars too!  And, they already
 have allowed in '64 442s.  So where's the problem?  Maybe I'm the one that
 can't be reached!
 
 Paul
  >>


Really?  Why just '64 442's?  The NAOC permits "modified" as in outright race
cars and street cars with custom paint and body modifications, roll bars,
headers, blowers, chrome, 3" exhaust, fat & skinny tires, modified
suspensions, etc.?  Do these modified Oldsombiles have classes of their own?
 Are they eligible for judging and recognized with awards?  

IMHO clubs, particularly "national" ones claiming to cover all of an auto
manufacturer's marque, should encourage _all_ aspects of that brand with no
prejudice. If not, change the name and be honest.  And although we have fun
making comments I am sure most admire any restored, cared for, cherished or
otherwise pampered car of any make.  Even Gremlins and '58 98s. :-)  

The Olds logo is 100 years old next year, why are they ignoring almost half
of the company's history?  You want "antiques" only?  That's fine, but
recognize the generally accepted time frame of 20-25 years as do most state
departments of motor vehicles.

"Modifieds" have and continue to be important for Olds.  Olds ruled NASCAR
for several years in the 50's, ruled NHRA in the 70s, ruled it again in the
90's and is now doing very well thank you in road course, international and
endurance racing.

Isn't there something for everyone in all this?

If NAOC allows modified I would be interested in what classes are
established, judging rules, etc.  Even if my _'67_ W-30 and _'70_ SX
convertible aren't welcome (two relatively rare OLDSMOBILES).  It would
truely be most pleasant news to me to hear that a national Olds club is now
more open minded about what is "acceptable." 

Thanks,

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:09:56 -0300
Subject: Re: Guvn'r fixed; now, onto adjusting my 403's valvetrain 

In a message dated 96-07-11 00:05:03 EDT, you write:

<< The other option, of course, is to go with longer pushrods (+.050" or
 +.100"), which sticks closer to the stock geometry. I'd like to not give JM
 any more of my money, especially if there won't be any benefit. >>

This months (August) Popular Hot Rodding, page 7 has an ad for CompCams,
(901)795-2400.  They have pushrods available in 0.025"-0.050" increments
depending on diameter and length.  Probably a bunch cheaper than Joe M.

Also check out pages 72-74 for a spread on the Olds Club of Florida first
annual show and swap meet. On page 74 there is a picture of a certain '67
W-30 Modified's engine compartment.

Bob Handren
'67 W-30 Modified
'70 SX Convertible
Ovideo, FL

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:08:23 -0300
Subject: Re: NAOC Nationals 

In a message dated 96-07-10 22:45:45 EDT, you write:

<<  They don't understand that was all I was
 raised on.  I'm hangin' in there, but I don't for how much longer...
 
 Paul >>

Then try OCA, it ain't perfect but it's a lot less judgemental.

Bob

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:08:14 -0300
Subject: Re: Alternator Upgrade Q 

In a message dated 96-07-11 01:32:37 EDT, you write:

<< But, you still have only a 42 
 (that was the default size, I think) amp alternator with less output at 
 idle, and you still have the part-finding factor. >>

The car came in 10/66 with a 37A alternator.  That was standard.  I believe
the one I have now is ~63 amps and I am pretty sure there were even higher
outputs available, up in the 70s anyway. Might have been aftermarket models
and not GM.  For my needs (no A/C to run, just the HEI, electric fuel pump
and radio) it's been fine.   Also, got those chromed case halves and didn't
want to loose that when I installed the HEI. So based on good advice from
this list, I switched in a solid state regulator.

However, because the 455 beast motor tads to rev a little high  :-o   I must
use an underdrive pulley.  I definitely notice that the voltage is dropping
on idle.  Still hasn't been a problem with the low amperage requirements low
run time at idle speeds.

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:58:01 -0300
Subject: The Cutlass/4-4-2 ID Guide, "Cars & Parts", and Us 

Thought this might be of interest to you all:

I'm probably not giving away any corporate secrets to say that one of
my publishing system support customers is the Scott Stamp division of
Amos Press, also the parent company of "Car & Parts" magazine. I was 
on the phone with them just now and mentioned that we'd been talking 
here on the list about the ID guide for Cutlass/H/O/4-4-2 number decoding,
etc., which they've just published, and how there were (obvious) levels 
of interest in it. Their order number for the book is (800) 448-3611 
(probably also in the magazine ad; my copy is at home), and the person 
answering that phone will probably be Janice. Just for yucks, tell her 
you're a member of the Olds Owners' Email List if you order; reason I say
this is below, following a brief Memo:
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Additional Memorandum Statement Of Independent Legalese: I have no
connection to Amos Press other than to provide them with system support
and get no kickbacks, monetary or otherwise, from mentioning their book.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, having said that: Thought you'd be interested in hearing that Dean
Shipley, one of their staff writers, heard my mention of the Olds Email
List and was interested in getting more details -- how it works, how to
subscribe and so on -- which I provided. The magazine did a lengthy piece
on car clubs not too long ago but completely overlooked Internet email
lists, so perhaps we'll trigger another article to cover that; they were
bragging in a recent issue about how _they_ were now on the net. I also
heard that they're making a note to consult us for Oldsmobile input in
the future should the need arise -- hear that, Chris Witt?  :-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:09:23 -0300
Subject: Re: gears, etc. 

In a message dated 96-07-10 16:19:57 EDT, you write:

<< BobH592058@aol.com wrote:
 > 
 >  But, get rid of 'em and guess what will happen?
 > 
 > Bob Handren
 
 Bob:
 
 You've got me.  What will happen?
 -- 
 SLTG >>


It's one of Murphy's laws, one that most spouses and so-called normal non-car
nut people don't understand.  It goes something like:

"The chance that you will need that "extra" old part is on the order of 100%
if you give, sell or throw it away."

Bob Handren

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:11:23 -0300
Subject: Bye Pat, etc. Misc.

- --Toronado--
> Ran across a '66 in a local salvage lot here the other day.  The best way I
> can describe these things is a "different" form of cool.  That interior is

> It is with a heavy heart that I must announce my leaving of this list. With my
> work heating up, my 8.5 mo old kid getting up every 1.5 hrs at night, and my
> boss going on vacation for at least 2 mo, I cannot keep up with everything tha
> is going on. As one of the first members of this list I am extremely proud to
> have gotten in on the ground floor of something that I believe was long, long
> overdue. Will stay subscribed for at least the rest of the day. If anyone need
> me, please do not hesitate to e-mail me directly.

Well, thanks for joining us, Pat, helping, sharing stories. You'll be back.
Don't sell off the car... stash it if you have to, but don't sell it.

> I know its not nettiquetly (just made that up) correct but I am going to sign
> off with my original sig file (Sorry Chris! here is the billboard one last tim

Hey, once in a while, I don't mind... it is a bitchin' work of art, as ASCII
art goes... out of deference? to you, I even include it myself:
>           ___              ___        _________
>          /   |            /   |      /         \
>         /    |           /    |     |   ___    |
>        /     |          /     |     |__|   |   |
>       /      |         /      |           /   /
>      /       |        /       |          /   /
>     /   /|   |       /   /|   |         /   /
>    /   /_|   |__    /   /_|   |__      /   /
>   |             |  |             |    /   /
>   |______     __|  |______     __|   /   /_____
>          |   |            |   |     |          |      Pat Clark
>          |___|            |___|     |__________|       69 442
>                               400/400
>
>    "Just your average 300+hp garage hogging, gas sucking, money pit"

> To find out what engine the intake belongs to, just measure the width. The 350
 intakes are
> smaller than the 455's. Can someone measure there 455's and post it, to help t
his guy out. Fernando Proietto

Yah, that works well.... Also, look for the big [3/4" or so] ID in the
depression just behind the front water passage... As per the usual convention,
[all together now...] "number = small block, letter = big block"  Thanks for
the participation, class!  -Chris-

> Eh?  What's that, sonny?  My bearing's gone on my Sporty?? :)
> Tim (been to way too many concerts and 40's only 3.5 years away) Churchill

No, my earring's not gone... and don't call me "shorty"! -Chris-

> Just a reminder:  the NAOC only recognizes Oldsmobiles up through the
> 1964 model year.  If you show up in your '69 442, it won't be allowed on
> the show field.  (But I'm sure you'll be allowed to park it over with the
> other spectators' cars!)

Hmmm... I recall going to a car show once, drove the convertible, was not
entering though... drove up to the gate, they presumed I was entering, but when
I told 'em no, they directed me to nice nearby 'executive' parking! How nice, a
perk for having a bitchin ride... -Chris-

> Personally, I think that they ought to raise it every year so that the
> most recent year recognized is 25 years old.  Thus, each year they could
> recognize a new model year and celebrate its officially becoming an
> "antique" and welcoming it into the club. Dan Gulino

Not a bad ideer... Or, at least, feature *one* year of newer models per meet or
year... limited to a certain number, like 25% of total entrants... -Chris-

> > You missed what I posted a month or so ago.  Here goes again:
> >
> > - - - - -
> >
> > --> Robert Valentine
> > --> Bob:
>
> That is so nice that even I can understand it.  Have you written
> extensively for the mentally retarded?

Huh? I guess you have to "read between the lines" to get that info out of the
above lines! -Chris-

> >> This is bogus, I have a pantload of mail without this

A "pantload" huh? Where does that fall in the continuum of quantification
terms? More than "a lot" I presume, but less than, say, f#$%load... :)

>      I could be wrong too, but I understood "billet" to mean it was
>      "carved" from a solid block of metal, much like you'd carve a statue
>      out of a block of wood.  Forged would be pressed/heated/bent from a
>      solid piece of metal, like a blacksmith makes a horseshoe out of a
>      straight rod by heating, bending, and hammering it.  Of course cast is
>      obviously created from liquid metal and a mold.

Yeah, I was discussing that with a machinist yesterday, said what you said.
Still, 'billet' remains one of the most overused words in the auto world. Like
that makes the part magically far superior to others... like "billet" spark
plug wire looms... Heh. Way better that forged ones, cast ones, or of course
welded assemblies.

- --350 melto-carb, 455 forged crank--

Yes, but if that engine had #5 heads, then it's almost undoubtedly got the
choke coil down in the intake- a rare piece, valuable if it still has tension.

>      Is there any way to tell if it's got the forged crank without dropping
>      the pan to look at it?  Or at least any "strong indications" that
>      would warrant pulling the pan for a closer look, such as model or

Yep, easy, too, if the car is elevated at all or trans is off... Look at the
back flange of the crank, just under [fwd of] the flexplate. You can peer into
there w/ flashlite after removing tork converter cover which is generally
missing anyhow... Find the notch in the OD of that crank's flexplate mounting
circle. Might have to turn the motor a bit- I find vice-grips on the flexplate
work pretty well. If trans is gone, you can reach thru the flexplate holes &
feel the notch.
  Anyhow, if the notch is shaped like a tall C or wide U... has 3 sides with
gently rounded corners... that's CAST IRON, may be Nodular, but still not
forged. Side note, for small blocks: Later [sb] cranks which are even lamer yet
got an even deeper C-notch, almost as deep as it is wide.
  Forged cranks [reportedly- still have yet to *see* one in person] have a
notch shaped like a tall "L"... two sides with a fairly sharp, machined corner
where the L's sides meet.
  In other words, if you were to stick your finger in this notch to the bottom,
and then move it sideways, on a cast crank it would smack into a little wall
about 3/8" tall on each end; on a forged crank, only one end would have this
wall- the other way your finger would slide right on out onto the crank flange
OD...  Clear? -Chris-

> My understanding is that the HP loss from not using a clutched fan is
> enough to make you want to use a clutched fan.  And, that the clutch
> is RPM controlled not temperture controlled.

Well, there's rpm-only controlled units, and rpm & Temp controlled ones.

> Off the list... next thing you know you will be selling the car! :)

BLASPHEMER! ;)

>   thanks Bob, I wanted to keep the limited slip, however I guess I'll live
>  with the 12 bolt till I can find a replacement with some deeper gears.
>   >Dave Isho --- davei-2@mail.idt.net

A number of posi's in that selection of ads from the NY area...

> use sheet metal from old high school lockers to make the patch (I actually
> did that once :-)). Bob Handren

Hmmmm... add louvres at the same time! -Chris-

> The oil pressure sensor is not in the intake manifold.  It is tapped into the
> engine block in front of the intake to the right of the oil filler tube
> behind the water pump. Bob Handren

Yeah, what he said. You know right beside the block casting ID. You *do* know
where the block casting ID is, right? -Chris-

> I saw the exact issue of "why 1964" addressed in an issue of Runabouts
> to Rockets once.  The reason given for cutting off recognition with 1964
> was that, after this year, "the character of the cars, and their owners,
> changed."  That's an exact quote.  I thought that bit about "their owners" a
> bit strange, but I guess it IS a different kind of person who would
> buy and fix up a 442 than who would buy and fix up a '42 L98 or
> something similar.

"we don't lahk yer *kind* 'round here, boy!" Damn kids & their hot-rods! Ahem,
well, then. "Why, in my day, we had to hand-crank our cars to get 'em started,
and often as not, broke an arm when it kicked back! Yeah, and they went only
about 5mph, if you were lucky enough to go downhill. We didn't have no
fancy-schmancy windows & such neither, nossir! We suffered right there in the
weather! [all together,now...]  And we *liked* it!"
  Allrighty. *Burns rubber on the way to investigate the REO...*

> Yeah, I agree it's pretty easy to see how to do it, but _doing_ it isn't that
> easy.  Last time I needed to replace a broken trunk torsion bar I made darn
> sure to wear protective eyewear.  Never did get the sucker to the notch I
> really wanted.  'Course there is a factory tool for the job which I didn't of
> course have.  Would have made it a bunch easier.  Vise Grips only allow so
> much leverage and it takes a bit of stored energy to lift those good old down
> to the bumper double steel construction trunk lids.

What, you don't have every tool shown in the service manual?? :) Me neither.
I'd suggest of course holding the lid open for the ceremony with stick, tied to
ceiling, engine crane, etc.  -Chris-

> > Gee, and Year One advertises that "Parts is Parts, Right?"  Only one year,
> > and how long did the original factory bushings last?
>
> Doesn't Year One mean one year.  It makes sense to me.  For some reason
> the amount of quality is inversely proportional to the amount of
> advertisement or bragging.

Yeah, "better hurry, at these prices, they *won't last long*!" :)

> > It was the last of the boxy, squared-off, slab-sided look.
> Was that the owners?     ;)
> Michael R. Frederick, CEO

*ROFL* Say, Mike isn't that sort of comment a bit 'out of character' for you? I
thought I was the resident.... ah, nevermind. -Chris-

> >  But, get rid of 'em and guess what will happen?
> You've got me.  What will happen?

Why, you need one again, of course!

> I predict that eventually the NAOC will have to admit newer cars.  Everyone
> likes to talk about how it would be nice to have more cars from the 20s,
> 30s, and 40s at the shows, but they're just not out there.  At our Mid-Ohio

I've noticed a certain dearth of pre-65 cars advertised hereabouts, too. Maybe
it was that WWII thing, where they needed lots of steel to make more tanks &
such... and lots of brass! 'Course where'd all them '44-65 cars go? -Chris-

> From: Blaine Sanders 5483 <BLAINES@strata3d.com>
> Subject: 350 to 455 conversion
> Hey everyone... I just came upon a running Olds 455 engine and TH400
> tranny for $150.  It's actually the whole car that some guy wants to get
> rid of really bad.  I haven't found out which model it is, but when I find out
> I'll let you all know.  I'll be parting it out after I remove the engine and
> tranny.

- --1975 Delta Royale--

> Anyway, what I wanted to know is:
> Will the 455 drop right in, in place of the 350?  Or will I have to weld new
> mounts in, etc.  Is it gonna be a big pain in the anal canal?

Well, more or less... you'd oughta drill & tap the front coolant drain holes,
since they aren't presently, and A-body motor mounts will cover the present
rear drain plugs. Use pulleyss & brackets from the 455. Get the PS pump or at
least its brackets. Not real complicated.
  The bad news: that's a smogger 455, as lame as ny produced. Ultra-LOW
compression, EGR-intake, cheesiest of cast iron crankshafts, lame cam specs,
etc. At least the rods & block are good for 'most any use.

> I suspect the Tranny won't fit, as it's coming out of a long-bodied 4-door
> and it's probably got the long tail shaft.

Fit as is, no. However, find one of them guys that rebuilds transes for $200 or
so, have him use leftover C*evy parts to convert it to short-shaft while he
rebuilds it. Voila'!

> Also, will I have to change the differential to handle the extra tork of the
> 455?  I currently only have a 10-bolt rear-end.  The car has a 12-bolt,

Not until it breaks. Not anytime soon with THAT motor, as is...

> and I believe it's a posi, but the old man's son wants it for his GTO.

Sheesh, why? That rear end might be a 12-bolt, might be a posi, but 1) they
weigh a TON, a lot more than an A-body rear end, 2) the width is probably
significantly different- like 2", 3) they almost always have lame [for
performance- presumably why he has  a GTO] gear ratios: 2.56, 2.73 if you're
lucky. Can fit max of 3.08 w/o major mods or new parts... Again, why bother?
Talk some sense into him... -Chris-

> I propose we form PETO: People for the Ethical Treatment of Oldsmobiles!
> Somebody oughta go rescue the poor girl and lock him up for vehicle
> abuse.
> The 66 Toro and Mike

Where do I send my dues? Can we cite folks like the guy letting the 68 Toro's
chrome wheels sit in the dirt? Can we confiscate cars for such behavior, put
the boot on C*evy powered cars...? -Chris-

> Blaine,
> I don't think you'll have to weld anything.  You will need to change the
> brackets to accept the motor mounts.

Huh? Just use all the A-body's motor mount stuff. Use the center-rear holes on
the engine. No problem. Might need more radiator.

> >> 68-69   400    10.5 to 1   4.00     3.98   360 @ 5400  440 @ 3600    4 bbl
> >
> >Ooooops again! the '68-9 400 engine does not have a 4.000 bore; with the long
> >stroke, the bore was reduced to 3.870", a rather weird number.
>
> I copied this list straight out of a book my bro-in-law gave me.  Not having
> the massive technical knowledge posessed by some others on this list, I had
> no way to check it's accuracy.  Therefore, there may be errors included on
> the list; ya'll who have that "massive technical knowledge" will have to
> point them out. Sorry for any inconvenience.
> Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme

Well, I myself missed the fact that they screwed up and listed the stroke AND
bore as the same... Correct info:
yr       cid   Block ID   Bore   Stroke
65-67    400    B or E    4.000  3.975
68-69    400      G       3.870  4.250

- --stuff to look for in boneyards [excellent list, btw!]--
> 4) Left dual exhaust manifold, be sure and pull the different tranmission
> control rods.

Maybe we just solved Mr. Bacon's mystery as to why none of the standard LH xst
manifolds he has tried will fit his '70 big car!  I was thinking different
steering box, shift linkage did not even occur to me! -Chris-

> their cars and to make sure they are ready for Sunday.  Gates open a 1:00PM
> on Sat and they run to about 3:00AM.

Dang! 3am! Lotsa track prep, I guess... :)

> >the amount of HP the fan would take i think is almost nil...i think the
> >whole concept of that clutch fan is flawed anyway...the heat from the engine
> >must work its way to the clutch to make it engage...i think the best would

Well, since the engine heat is being dumped at the radiator, and flowing right
over that clutch, sounds good to me... oughta work.

> Well, a thermostat is a temperature-controlled restrictor, so you already
> have your wish there. Thermostatically controlled lectric fans are also a
> good bet, but you have to remember that the drag from the fan that you free
> up by removing the engine-driven fan is replaced by the increased drag from
> the alternator, now generating electricity to run the electric fans.
>
> Six of one, half-dozen of another...
> - - Bob Barry

Well, I think this might be 6 of one, 6.5 of another. Electric fans, being
designed to run at ONE constant speed, can use blades designed specifically to
efficiently move lots of air while making minimal noise. Quite different from a
fan driven by the water pump shaft. 10% different, maybe?, thus the
6/6.5 ratio noted above... -Chris-

> Degreed the cam on the 403 today (not too bad; my roller timing chain was
> only *six degrees* retarded when installed straight up! Whatever you may
> think of Joe Mondello and his tech manual, he is absolutely right about Olds
> timing gear sets being incredibly inaccurate. DEGREE THAT CAM!), installed

Yes, that's been my experience as well. Either the cam or the timing set or
both are retarded. You MUST degree in the cam if you expect better than 'lame'
performance from it. -Chris-

> The rocker pedestals bottom out before I can get enough lifter preload, but
> not by much. I'm assuming the valve job is making up some of the clearance

define 'not by much' with numbers... What, you didn't shave the heads???

> Can these individual pedestals be ground down on a valve-by-valve basis to
> provide the proper .030-.050" lifter preload? The loosest pushrod has .020"

probably, with a mill or surface grinder- not holding it by hand, but accurate
machine work...

> clearance between the rocker arm and valve stem, so the most I would have to
> remove would be about .045". I know this changes the geometry, but it seems

That seems like a lot. How much are adjusto-p'rods again? $150 or so? Wait a
sec... 0.020" at valve tip ==> 0.014" at pushrod ==> 0.009" at the pedestal,
that's not nearly so bad. 'Course, that's just to get to zero lash/ zero
preload. Add about 20-30 more for preload... yep you were right, up to 0.040"
at the pedestal.

> The other option, of course, is to go with longer pushrods (+.050" or
> +.100"), which sticks closer to the stock geometry. I'd like to not give JM
> any more of my money, especially if there won't be any benefit.

Ah, *longer p'rods*,not *adjustable* ones! Buy 'em from Summit, save enough to
pay the shipping? -Chris-
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:15:27 -0300
Subject: Ads from NY

I read them ads from the NY area, printed them out... got all excited when I
saw the "68 442 air scoops, $100"... called the guy...


Ooooops, misprint.... that was supposed to be >>> $1000 <<<, not $100!

Shoot. NOS? Well, no, but "very pretty". Personally I find it hard to believe
that there's that many rich/ stupid '68 W30 or H/O owners, but, hey we're a
country on millionaires, right?

I was lucky to get $300 or so out of the pristine *NOS* uninstalled set of '69
scoops I had a while back...
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Paul Bartlett <bartletp@osshe.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:15:36 -0300
Subject: Re: REO tucked away

Chris,

I got the box with the radio, spring, and relay in mail.  Thanks.  Hope the
hornets are going away.  I didn't see any in the box.
 -- 
Paul Bartlett
Phone (503) 737-0510
E-mail bartletp@osshe.edu

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:15:27 -0300
Subject: Ads from NY

I read them ads from the NY area, printed them out... got all excited when I
saw the "68 442 air scoops, $100"... called the guy...


Ooooops, misprint.... that was supposed to be >>> $1000 <<<, not $100!

Shoot. NOS? Well, no, but "very pretty". Personally I find it hard to believe
that there's that many rich/ stupid '68 W30 or H/O owners, but, hey we're a
country on millionaires, right?

I was lucky to get $300 or so out of the pristine *NOS* uninstalled set of '69
scoops I had a while back...
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:28:20 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Oldsmobile Centennial Info 

In a message dated 96-07-11 13:59:00 EDT, you write:

<< 
 
 
           
 <<    Oldsmobile Centennial will be held in Lansing, MI Aug 
            20-23,1997.  We would like to know if you are interested in 
            coming.  If you would like a form sent to you regarding 
            attending, contact Dave_Byers@Lansing-Online.com with name 
            and address and we will mail one out.  Olds forever!
             >>
           
 Joe:
           
 I'm confused  -nothing new, but Olds Division has already been informed of
my 
 possible attendance.  Is this different, related, ??
           
 Bob Handren
           
           Bob,
           
           No, just a lack of info on my part.  I had not seen the 
           earlier Olds Div announcement, so I assumed that this was 
           new information.
           
           Joe Padavano
           jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
           
           66 442
           68 W-30
           69 H/O
           70 W-30
  >>

Joe, I'm still confused.  This may be new information, it could be
independant or not.  Lansing-Online might be for the city. (Olds Division
doesn't _really_ own the town. :-).

I guess I'll send a message and fins out.

Bob

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:38:08 -0300
Subject: Re: 1988 Toronado Trofeo

On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Andrew C. Green wrote:
> >No, no just classics, though that's what most of us own. We don't seem to 
> >have a critical mass of more modern Olds owners here yet, but hang in there.
> 
> Yow, I usually don't correct others in public but I'm real certain that was
> supposed to say "No, _not_ just classics", right, Greg?  :-)

Ummm, yeah. Finger problem from being up too early in the morning. 
Changes the meaning a bit, doesn't it? Sorry. But the point is that 
everyone is welcome here, as you correctly surmised.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 19:46:35 -0300
Subject: Re: Bye Pat, etc. Misc.

Chris Brown Witt wrote:
>
> > > It was the last of the boxy, squared-off, slab-sided look.
> > Was that the owners?

> *ROFL* Say, Mike isn't that sort of comment a bit 'out of character' 
> for you? I thought I was the resident.... ah, nevermind. -Chris-

I was waitin for that one.  No, I've always been a character.    ;)

> > I propose we form PETO: People for the Ethical Treatment of 
> > Oldsmobiles!
> 
> Where do I send my dues? Can we cite folks like the guy letting the 68 
> Toro's chrome wheels sit in the dirt? Can we confiscate cars for such 
> behavior, put the boot on C*evy powered cars...? -Chris-

Here.  Yes  Yes.  Yes.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 17:45:54 -0300
Subject: Re[4]: Oldsmobile Centennial Info 

In a message dated 96-07-11 13:59:00 EDT, you write:
          
Joe, I'm still confused.  This may be new information, it could be 
independant or not.  Lansing-Online might be for the city. (Olds Division 
doesn't _really_ own the town. :-).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
          Just the baseball stadium, right?
          
I guess I'll send a message and fins out.
          
Bob

          I also did.  We'll see what happens.
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: atsmith@icnet.net (Andrew Smith)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:44:07 -0300
Subject: Re: 1988 Toronado Trofeo

Greg Beaulieu wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Andrew Smith wrote:
> >  Is this group just for people who own classic olds? i thought it was
> > just a general group.. *shrug*
> >
> 
> No, no just classics, though that's what most of us own. We don't seem to
> have a critical mass of more modern Olds owners here yet, but hang in there.
> 
> On the Trofeo, there was a mention in the latest JWO magazine that
> Trofeos seem to be gaining collectible status already and prices are
> getting up there. Might be worth an investment...
> 

Well, i decided to buy it. It has all the features available as of 1988. 
This car has 36,000 origanal miles, and everything runs/looks great. I'm 
happy with the buy..

------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:53:51 -0300
Subject: Re: 350 to 455 conversion - Part 2 

At 02:22 PM 7/11/96 -0300, you wrote:
>About the car:
>
>Ok, I found out yesterday that the car is a '75 (?) Delta 88 Royale.  The
>interior is pretty much trashed, but the body is straight.  I didn't notice any
>rust.  It has tilt wheel, power steering/brakes/windows.  The headliner
>and sun visors are in pretty good shape, but they are that disgusting
>green color that nobody likes.  It's a 2-door model.  Anyone want
>anything?  I only want the engine, tranny, and axle... and maybe the
>power windows.


I need the emblem in the front-center of the grille.  It's actually not
on the grille, but is between the two portions of the grille right on the
point of the nose.  Mine's only in fair shape, so if the one on this
car is real nice, I'd be interested.


Dan


************************************************
Daniel A. Gulino
Associate Professor and Graduate Chairman
Department of Chemical Engineering
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio  45701-2979
(614) 593-1495
(614) 593-0873 (fax)
gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu
http://www.ent.ohiou.edu/che/faculty/gulino.html
************************************************

------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:58:38 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: NAOC Nationals 

At 05:05 PM 7/11/96 -0300, you wrote:

>> I think a great statement would be for about 50 1964 442 owners to show > up 
>at an NAOC national meet one year. 
>
>          Uhhh...are there 50 1964 442s still on the road?
>          

If not, let's just haul 'em in from junkyards!  That would be even better!



************************************************
Daniel A. Gulino
Associate Professor and Graduate Chairman
Department of Chemical Engineering
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio  45701-2979
(614) 593-1495
(614) 593-0873 (fax)
gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu
http://www.ent.ohiou.edu/che/faculty/gulino.html
************************************************

------------------------------

From: atsmith@icnet.net (Andrew Smith)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:59:21 -0300
Subject: Re: 1988 Toronado Trofeo

Robert J. Barry wrote:
> 
> At 04:31 AM 7/11/96 -0400, you wrote:
> >Well, i found a 1988 Trofeo for sale. Beutiful condition... The dealer
> >is asking for $5288 for it.. i think it sounds pretty good. Anyone know
> >where i can find some inforfation on it?
> 
> Pretty neat little car, that Trofeo. It is new enough that you could
> probably ask your local Olds dealer about it, and they would actually have a
> living salesperson who could give you their recollections on it. I don't
> know if the Olds History Center (on the web page) would have info on such a
> "new" car.

 What IS the classic olds page? I've done some snooping around.. have'nt 
found one yet, except the dealers page <www.oldsmobile.com>

 
> > Is this group just for people who own classic olds? i thought it was
> >just a general group.. *shrug*
> 
> It is a general group, though few newer Olds owners feel as much passion
> about (or need as many repairs on) their newer cars. One factor, I believe,
> is the excessive "badge engineering" that went on in the '80's: little
> difference between, say, a Ciera, a Century or a 6000. The newer cars from
> each division are a bit more distinctive, and certain recent performance
> Olds' (H/O's, 442's, W-41's and W-42's) have enough unique
> parts/engines/spoilers that the owners are looking for comrades.

Well, oldmobiles have been in my family for years.. Both my parents, 
they're best friends, uncles, aunts, 1 of my grandfathers.. either own 
or have had an olds... it was kind of a "dream" of my parents for me to 
own one for my first car.. My dads first car was a 1971 88, my moms a 
1972 Cutlass Supreme. heh..

  
> Furthermore, I think that the general consensus here is that nobody would
> turn down a brand-new Aurora, ya know, if someone gave us one. OTOH, you can
> buy and insure a couple of classic 442's, plus get a good Toronado for
> winter, for the price of a new Aurora. Heck, my '69 Toronado has only cost
> me, total, about *one month's* lease payment on an Aurora...

I can understand that.

> 
> -----------
> - Bob Barry
> - 1969 Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
> - 1978 Electra Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)


Andrew and his "new" car

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 17:58:54 -0300
Subject: Looking for sympathy 

          Well, I'll be off the air for the next week and a half, as 
          we are leaving for Hawaii first thing in the morming.  I 
          need sympathy for two reasons.
          
          First, we're taking the three kids
          
          Shoot me now.
          
          Second, we're taking the mother-in-law
          
          Third (our main weapon is fear...fear and surprise, our two 
          main weapons...), there will be at least 800 messages from 
          this mail list when I get back to the office (not counting 
          any goofy mail messages).  Greg, please don't delete me if 
          my mail box gets full...
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 17:03:13 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: NAOC Nationals 

At 04:17 PM 7/11/96 -0300, you wrote:
>          
>1964 was, however, a changeover year, although perhaps not a striking one.  It 
>was the last of the boxy, squared-off, slab-sided look. 
>
>          Wasn't 64 the last year of the 303-394 V8?

You're partly right.  '64 was the FIRST year of the 330 (not 303), but it
was the
LAST year of the 394.  The 394 was the only V-8 available in "full-sized"
Oldsmobiles, with the exception of the Jetstar 88, in 1964.  The Jetstar 88
(but not 
the also-new Jetstar I) had a full-sized body and frame but used the F-85's
engine, drivetrain, and brakes.  The Jetstar I was actually a part of the
Dynamic 88
series, but it was more like the Starfire in terms of the portion of the
market it
was after.


Dan


************************************************
Daniel A. Gulino
Associate Professor and Graduate Chairman
Department of Chemical Engineering
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio  45701-2979
(614) 593-1495
(614) 593-0873 (fax)
gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu
http://www.ent.ohiou.edu/che/faculty/gulino.html
************************************************

------------------------------

From: atsmith@icnet.net (Andrew Smith)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 17:05:40 -0300
Subject: Re: 1988 Toronado Trofeo

Mike Frederick wrote:
> 
> Lloyd Culp wrote:
> >
> > I know that I am causing trouble, but should anyone ask if we are
> > prejudiced against the "NEW" cars from Oldsmobile?  It sounds a little
> > like the NAOC that we have been railing against.
> 
> I think there's a big difference between not allowing certain cars and
> not having much information on certain car.  Just because there's seems
> to be a shortage of info on the 1988 Trofeo doesn't imply any prejudice.


Well, if there IS a shortage of information on it.. Shouldnt it get the 
class of "Antique?" Its new enough not to be a classic, old enought no 
one knows anything about it <including edmunds> I think i've found 
something! =)


> > Happily, the only comments that I have heard are those of WELCOME!
> 
> Exactly.  A non-NAOC trait.
> 
> The 66 Toro and Mike

Andrew and his "new" car

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 17:23:43 -0300
Subject: RE: Looking for sympathy

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB6F45.549CA840
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You won't get any sympathy from me.. The kids and the mother-in-law were =
your choices. No one held a gun to your head... :) At least you will =
have a rug rat sitter for the kids by bringing the mother-in-law.

- ----------
From: 	JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com[SMTP:JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com]
Sent: 	Thursday, July 11, 1996 4:58 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Looking for sympathy

          Well, I'll be off the air for the next week and a half, as=20
          we are leaving for Hawaii first thing in the morming.  I=20
          need sympathy for two reasons.
         =20
          First, we're taking the three kids
         =20
          Shoot me now.
         =20
          Second, we're taking the mother-in-law
         =20
          Third (our main weapon is fear...fear and surprise, our two=20
          main weapons...), there will be at least 800 messages from=20
          this mail list when I get back to the office (not counting=20
          any goofy mail messages).  Greg, please don't delete me if=20
          my mail box gets full...
         =20
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
         =20
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30





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------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:37:02 -0300
Subject: Re[4]: NAOC Nationals 

At 04:17 PM 7/11/96 -0300, you wrote: 
>          
>1964 was, however, a changeover year, although perhaps not a striking one.  It 
>was the last of the boxy, squared-off, slab-sided look. 
>
>          Wasn't 64 the last year of the 303-394 V8?
          
You're partly right.  '64 was the FIRST year of the 330 (not 303), but it 
was the
LAST year of the 394. 

          That's not a typo.  What I meant (and obviously didn't 
          accurately convey) was that 1964 was the last year of the 
          engine family which included the 303 to 394 old-style V-8s.  
          (I would have listed all the displacements, but I didn't 
          remember what they were, so I tried to fake it...)
          
          Joe (big blocks only) Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30
          

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:42:33 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: 1988 Toronado Trofeo 

... Both my parents, they're best friends, ...
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

          Isn't it great when a married couple is also best 
          friends...OH, THEIR best friends...
          (no, Chris Witt isn't the only smart**s on the list :))
          
          (Well, I alway say, better to be a smart**s than a dumb**s)
          
          (OK, OK, sorry...it's that shorttimer/vacation fever...)
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30
          
          

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:32:41 -0300
Subject: brakes, misc. stuff

Need some help with the brakes on my 69 Cutlass.  Here's what happened:  I
was backing out of a friends driveway, under 5 mph, and had to put the
brakes on hard to stop for a car going by.  After that, the car seemed to
have no power brakes.  The engine also ran with a low rpm miss. 

The first thing I checked was the vacuum booster.  Sure enough, it was bad;
diaphragm was leaking.  Bought a new one (lifetime warranty, too!) and
tested and installed it.  When I took off the master cylinder, it was
leaking out the back, so I replaced that, too.  Got it all back together and
bled the brakes.  I was really looking forward to having brakes again.  Took
the car out to test the brakes, and they weren't "power" brakes.  Had to
literally _stand_ on the brake pedal to get the car to stop!

Took it home and checked the vacuum booster again.  Not leaking.  Checked
for vacuum from the manifold; it was there.  Check valve is good.  Took off
all four drums to check wheel cylinders, shoes, etc.  All appeared fine, no
leaks, broken springs, etc..  All the parts in there are new except the
front wheel cylinders; just did that about two months ago.  The brake lines
(rubber and steel) all appear fine upon visual inspection.  

The only other part of the brake system that doesn't work is the emergency
brake.  It hasn't worked for at least ten years; the cable that attaches to
the pedal is broken.  Wha
t else can I check?  The only other thing I can think of is the
proportioning valve.  Could that cause the brakes to not work properly?  Can
they be purchased new, or do I have to get one at a junk yard if mine is bad?

Also, I counted the rotations to try to figure out my rear end ratio.
Raised the right rear off the ground, put trans in neutral, and turned the
tire.  For every one revolution of the tire, the axle went around
approximately one and a quarter times.  That seems like a _Really_ _Low_
_Ratio_ to me.  I did it about three times to make sure I was counting
revolutions correctly.  Do those numbers sound right?

Only a couple more things here...

Would someone please be so kind as to explain stall speed when referring to
torque convertors?  Is there a way to determine what the "best" stall speed is?

My Olds is a four door, which presents some unique problems when trying to
find interior trim pieces.  The only part I am really expecting to have a
problem finding is a plactic cover that goes over the pillar between the
front and rear doors.  This car is a hardtop four door (NO POST), so I don't
know if that piece from a post four door would work.  There's about three or
four 69 post four doors driving around town here; I've never seen another
hardtop.  Are there places that can fabricate this piece?  Say, out of
plactic or maybe fiberglass?

All comments, help, and suggestions are appreciated!!

Thanks!
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 21:20:49 -0300
Subject: Re: 1988 Toronado Trofeo

Andrew Smith wrote:
> 
> Well, i decided to buy it. It has all the features available as of 
> 1988.  This car has 36,000 origanal miles, and everything runs/looks 
> great. I'm happy with the buy..

As you should be.  Congratulations.  Kalkhoff will no doubt add you to 
the Toro mini-list as an official Toro-virus carrier.   :)

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 21:31:51 -0300
Subject: Re: 1988 Toronado Trofeo

Andrew Smith wrote:
> 
> Well, if there IS a shortage of information on it.. Shouldnt it get the
> class of "Antique?" Its new enough not to be a classic, old enought no
> one knows anything about it <including edmunds> I think i've found
> something! =)

Ok by me.  The point I was trying to make is the lack of response to your 
initial questions didn't mean you were getting the cold sholder.  

We were just all going "DUH!".
 
> Andrew and his REALLY, REALLY COOL "new" AMAZING TORONADO car

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 21:27:53 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: 1988 Toronado Trofeo

JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com wrote:
>
>(no, Chris Witt isn't the only smart**s on the list :))

Oh?  So you've noticed?   ;)

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:33:49 -0300
Subject: Re: brakes, misc. stuff 

In a message dated 96-07-11 17:21:24 EDT, you write:

>Took the car out to test the brakes, and they weren't "power" brakes.  Had
to
>literally _stand_ on the brake pedal to get the car to stop!

Dave,

Sounds like everything checks out....      However, I would re-bleed the
system. Sounds like you still have air in the lines yet. I had the same
experience when I put new wheel cylinders on the Toro. After I re-bled and
pumped them up, they worked fine.

All I can think of for now on this end.........


Sparky 

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:41:02 -0300
Subject: Re: 1988 Toronado Trofeo 

Good for you Andy!

Welcome to the Toro Club!

Sparky

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 17:38:11 -0300
Subject: Re: brakes, misc. stuff 

>After that, the car seemed to
>have no power brakes.  The engine also ran with a low rpm miss.

Engine snorked up some brake fluid through the broken booster and leaky
master cylinder, perhaps? 

>Took it home and checked the vacuum booster again.  Not leaking.  Checked
>for vacuum from the manifold; it was there.  Check valve is good.

Can you compare (with a meter) the vacuum draw with a similar, known-good
car? Perhaps the system failure drew debris into the line leading to the
carb (or wherever you're drawing vacuum from) which is partially blocking
it. Also is it possible that your vacuum line is collapsing inside? You
are using vacuum-reinforced hose here, right? Not pressure-reinforced
like that for heater hoses, etc.

>My Olds is a four door, which presents some unique problems when trying to
>find interior trim pieces.  The only part I am really expecting to have a
>problem finding is a plactic cover that goes over the pillar between the
>front and rear doors.  This car is a hardtop four door (NO POST), so I don't
>know if that piece from a post four door would work.

Don't think so; yours is kind of "capped" at the top, isn't it? A post
part would be open at the top, either running all the way to the roof
or, for two-piece designs, forming a kind of "shoulder" about halfway 
up where an upper piece comes down to sit on top of it. Later cars flared
the shoulder part outwards in order to hide the seat belt retractor in it.

>Are there places that can fabricate this piece?  Say, out of
>plactic or maybe fiberglass?

Dunno. I think you're more likely to find a junkyard piece and dye it
to match. What color does it need to be? Dark, hopefully...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 19:52:37 -0300
Subject: Re: brakes, misc. stuff 

Also, I counted the rotations to try to figure out my rear end ratio. Raised 
the right rear off the ground, put trans in neutral, and turned the tire.  
For every one revolution of the tire, the axle went around approximately one 
and a quarter times.  That seems like a _Really_ _Low_ _Ratio_ to me.  I did 
it about three times to make sure I was counting revolutions correctly.  Do 
those numbers sound right?

          You need to have BOTH tires off the ground.  By working the 
          differential as well as the ring gear, you effectively put 
          another 2:1 reduction in your gear train.  The 1.25 is 
          really a 2.56:1 or 2.73:1, depending on the accuracy of your 
          counting.  **NEAT TIP**  When attempting to figure out gear 
          ratio by counting turns, turn the drive shaft 10 times and 
          count the number of wheel rotations.  This is much less 
          sensitive to error, as a 2.56:1 will turn the wheels about 
          25 1/2 times, while the 2.73:1 will turn them about 27 1/2 
          times.  Much easier to determine than if the wheel went 
          around 2.5 or 2.7 times.
          
Only a couple more things here...
          
Would someone please be so kind as to explain stall speed when referring to 
torque convertors?  Is there a way to determine what the "best" stall speed is?

          Start the engine.  Put the car in drive.  Plant your left 
          foot on the brake (hard!) and slowly depress the accelerator 
          with your right foot.  Note that the car rocks over and the 
          engine soon reaches a point at which it feels like it will 
          stall.  This is the (everyone together now) _stall speed_ of 
          the converter.  (LEGAL/SAFETY NOTE:  Kids, do not try this 
          at home, at least not in the garage or in front of anything 
          which you might hurt if your foot slips off the brake and 
          the car goes hurtling forward!)
          
          OK, why do you care?  Well, the torque converter actually 
          provides significant multiplication under these conditions, 
          on the order of 2.5:1 for a typical TH400.  This helps 
          significantly with off-the-line acceleration.  Increasing 
          the stall speed increases the multiplication (to a point) 
          and also puts the engine up into the power band for the 
          launch.  Unfortunately, higher stall speed is directly 
          related to greater slippage (and higher engine rpm, and 
          higher trans temp, and lower fuel economy) at high speeds.  
          For a fixed stall speed converter (and almost all are), this 
          is a compromise which is set by the angle of the internal 
          vanes.  1800-2500 rpm is a typical stall speed for most 
          street-driven cars, while drag cars can run 3500-5000 rpm 
          stall converters.  Note that the switch-pitch converter 
          mentioned previously in this space is a nice compromise by 
          allowing one to select 1800 or 3500(?) rpm from a 
          dashboard-mounted switch, depending on one's needs.
          

          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30
          

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 23:38:02 -0300
Subject: Re: brakes, misc. stuff -Reply

Blaine Sanders 5483 wrote:
> 
> The result was a huge cloud of thick white smoke, with a wide open  V-8 
> Olds charging out of it.  With the correct timing on the brakes and 
> gas, I could make it look and sound just like the burnouts at the drag 
> strip.

It's great fun in a Toro too.  A little harder to see through the 
smoke but great fun none the less.

> Sorry, kinda got off subject there, didn't I?

I forget, what were you saying?

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: 
Date: 
Subject: [none]



------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #234
********************************

