To:	oldsmobile-digest @ ccn.cs.dal.ca @ INTERNET
cc:	 
From:	oldsmobile-digest-owner @ ccn.cs.dal.ca @ INTERNET @ ABTLAB
Date:	08/12/96 10:31:35 PM
Subject:	oldsmobile-digest V1 #264


oldsmobile-digest          Monday, 12 August 1996       Volume 01 : Number 264


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 17:06:38 -0300
Subject: Re: Hardened valve seats VS compression ratio

Gary Bowles wrote:
> 
> I am now buying a '70 Olds 442 W-30.  It has a rebuilt 455.  When the guy
> had it rebuilt, he had the valve seats hardened.  He claims this lowers
> the compression ratio from 10.5 to about 9.5.  Is this true?  
> Thanks
> Brad

Brad:

You are surely correct.  Hardening the seats themselves won't change 
compression any more than painting them would do.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: Jeff Stanish <stanishj@svpal.org>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 01:12:03 -0300
Subject: RE: 69 H/O Side Mirrors

Supposidely, the mirrors were the same as on an AC Cobra, but I've never

compared them.  

On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Shokouhi, Mike wrote:

> I've been living in London, England for the last 11 months, and happen
> to be restoring a '69 H/O back in Maryland -real slowly- due to distance
> (I've got the f mirrors though).  Ever since I got here I've planning on
> visiting junkyards in the hope of finding a field of these rather
> expensive mirrors, but was never sure of the type of English car they
> were on (most yards here are by make).  If you say you saw them on a
> Triumph, that's a great help!  Of course I have 3 weeks left before I
> head home -just my luck ;- )
> 
> Orders anyone?
> 
> Mikee
> 
> >
> >I know, I know, I said I would sign off this morning, but... ONE LAST
> >QUESTION!
> >The latest issue of muscle car review magazine has an article on the 69
> >H/O.
> >One interesting tidbit in this article was the casual mention that
> >Hurst went
> >over to England to import those unique "double tapered" side mirrors
> >for the
> >69. This reminded me of something I saw a couple of years ago at the
> >Pate swap
> >meet. There was a 69 H/O in the car corral that I looked over real good
> >(first
> >one I had actually seen "in the steel" so to speak). Instantly noticed
> >the style
> >of the side mirrors. Wandered on down the line up of cars and came
> >across a
> >Triumph TR6. First thing I noticed was wow, those side mirrors look an
> >awful
> >lot like the 69 H/O I just looked at. Never thought much about it again
> >until I
> >saw that article last night. Is there a connection between the two?
> >Could old
> >english sports cars be a source for these rare items?(instead of just a
> >source
> >for bad jokes and electrical fires). Let me know today what you think
> >and I 
> >promise (fingers crossed) that I will be gone tommorrow. ;-)
> >
> >
> > 				Pat Clark
> >    				 69 442
> >    			        400/TH400
> >    			  clark@abu.dseg.ti.com
> >
> >     The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.
> >
> >
> 
> 

------------------------------

From: spud@kudonet.com (Spud)
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 02:02:04 -0300
Subject: Re: Fwd: clarification 

J.C. Whitney also has a press to remove or install ball joints, on or off
the car. P/N 55BJ4128R, $94.99.  As with all J.C. Whitney purchases, think
before you buy.  Some real junk, some tools, etc., I've seen elsewhere
that's OK.  Caveat emptor.

>snap on makes a ball joint press set for 1971 thru current with 9 different
>adaptors that is similar to a universal press==part # CJ76C for about $350 
>
>matco makes a set part # BJP7025 that comes with 5 different adaptors for
>about $150
>---------------------
>Forwarded message:
>From:	dmorton@rci.rutgers.edu (David Morton)
>To:	STEE911@aol.com
>Date: 96-08-11 15:09:03 EDT
>
>Pickle forks are of course familiar.  The question I have is about the 
>_other_ tool that several people have mentioned.  Apparently it is a 
>small, portable press for sqeezing pressed-in ball joints out of 
>a-arms  . . That is to say, NOT a "pickle fork," not the tool for 
>separating the tapered, threaded shaft from the spindle assembly.
>
>So, the question stands:  what _is_ this strange tool people are 
>describing for removing the ball joint from the control arm?
>
>Dave
>
>
>
>


Spud     "Fart proudly."
'86 FXST   --Benjamin Franklin
'73 Delta 88
'79 LeBaron

------------------------------

From: Esko Ilola <esko.ilola@tele.telebox.fi>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 08:03:59 -0300
Subject: Resto tip(s): Building wire harnesses

How to make reliable, good looking wiring harnesses
- ---------------------------------------------------

If you are working with your wiring, you should have the following stuff:

- - the wire connection diagram WITH wire colour codes. This list is a VERY 
good place 
to get these if you do not have them already. Although you can manage without, 
it 
prevents you from making mistakes while building the harness.

- - a drawing of ALL the connectors in the harness. This need not be of 
Picasso 
quality. Make the picture always from the same direction and mark all wires 
and 
their colour in the drawing. The wire connection diagram supplied with shop 
manuals 
are not precise enough to allow you to rebuild the connector. Even if the 
manual 
would give you the exact information, make the drawing just to be sure. Don't 
rely 
on your memory, it won't work.

- - a good quality soldering iron. If possible, get one with a thermostat in 
it. Get 
an iron of 60 Watts or less if it does not have the thrmostat. 'Weller' has 
made a 
good one that has a thermostat built in and that is not too expensive. The call
it by type WC60 (60 watt). Any TV-repair guy can tell you where to find this 
stuff.

- - good quality solder. The one that is used for TV-repairs will do fine. If 
you have 
choices, get the one that is about 0.5 mm in diameter. It looks thin, but it 
contains more flux (oxidation removing agent) and is easier to dose. Don't buy
this stuff from your car-parts-supplier. Instead ask your TV-mechanic. You 
will be 
surprised of the price and the quality.

- - the original wiring harness removed from the car. If it can't be removed 
for some 
reason, try cutting it near the connector that didn't make it. If the 
connector is 
of the molded type, you don't need to cut it off, since they didn't
mold it in place! Try the other way. If there exists more than one wire for 
the 
connector, identify them some way to get them back in the same way when 
rebuilding. 
If the wires have colour codes, leave some insulation near the connector. 
Don't 
crack the connector, it may be reused and a new one can be hard to find.

- - you use the original harness as a model when rebuilding the new one. Save 
all 
harness holding clips. If possible, put them back to mark the places where 
they 
originally located.

- - the connecting pins inside the connectors can often be removed.  Look 
carefully 
into the connector and you can see a lid that holds the pin inside the 
connector 
house. This pin can be pressed with a very small screwdriver. Don't bend it, 
just 
press it enough to get the pin out. Remove one and get get new ones if 
possible.
These can be found at your car-parts-shop. If not, ask the TV-guy.... Or send 
mail 
to this list.

- - good guality wire with as close dyes as possible to the original ones. Use 
at 
least as thick wire as the original. A too thin wire can smelt and cause 
shorts. If 
the harness goes under the hood, check that the insulation material tolerates 
BOTH 
heat AND oil. Air temperature below the hood can rise up to 150 degrees 
Celcius). It 
is a good idea to use silicone (or even teflon) insulated wires under the 
hood. Take 
an extra meter of each to be sure.

- - there is two good choices for the harness shielding material. One is a 
plastic 
spiral which is wound over the harness. It can be bought black and it is heat 
and 
oil resistant. The disadvantage of this material is that it does not enclose 
the 
wires hermetically and it lets the dirt enter the harness. The spiral is quite 
cheap 
and it is easy to apply.
 The best method is the shrinking-plastic tube. This material shrinks when 
heat is 
applied to it. It shrinks about 50% in diameter. Select the diameter that is 
75% of 
the original size when shrinken over the harness.

The heat is applied with a hot-air blower. These are cheap and may be used in 
many 
other places as well. A hair-dryer can't deliver enough heat to shrink the 
material.

- - many cables have T-connections. When doing this, don't cut the main wire. 
Just 
peel it at the place where the T-connection is to be made and wind the third 
wire 
around the peeled part. Solder it after winding.Put a shrinking-plastic tube 
over 
the connection and shrink it there. At other end you have one and at the other 
two 
wires coming out.

- - the connecting pins may be of the type that is crimped around the wire. 
This 
method requires a special tool (not the ABIKO-tool) to be reliable. A much 
better 
method is as follows:
   - slide 2 centimeters length of shrinking-plastic tube (check the diameter) 
over the wire
   - peel the wire about 5 mm length (you don't need more)
   - crimp the connecting pin over the peeled part of wire. Don't use force, 
this is 
just to keep the pin in place while soldering it.
   - apply heat to the PIN not the wire and smelt solder into the wire. Check 
that 
the wire soaks the solder into itself. Control the amount of the solder. Too 
little 
and there will be no connection. Too much and you have a tinball. Do not move 
the 
connection until the solder has freezed.
   - pull the shrinking-plastic tube over the connection and shrink it there. 
The 
tube will prevent water entering the wire.

- - if you have made an exact copy of the harness, there should not be no 
difficulties 
to put it into place.

Following this procedure I have built several "new" harnesses. It is easy and 
when 
you do the job carefully, the harnesses will last at least one lifetime.
- -- 
**********************************************
* Esko Ilola                                 *
* Email esko.ilola@tele.telebox.fi           *
* X400  G=esko S=ilola O=tele A=mailnet C=fi *
* Tel.  +358 2040 3439                       *
* Mail  Ukonkivenpolku 7B5                   *
*       01610 VANTAA                         *
*       FINLAND                              *
**********************************************
* Oldsmobile 98  1964  4D HT                 *
**********************************************

------------------------------

From: eda@dl.tc.faa.gov
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 09:50:02 -0300
Subject: Re: Detailing - Engine In 

Greg Beaulieu <ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca> wrote:
> I used various paints: engine gold (correct for a 350), semi-black ( a
> couple of different kinds, I don't know which is "correct"), spray cast
> gray, Krylon Rust Gloss Black. The booster and other cad-plated parts
> like the alternator fan can be duplicated fairly closely if you use your
> imagination. I cleaned the surface rust with fine sandpaper, then sprayed
> them silver. Then I just very lightly misted them with some gold and
> green spray that I had and presto! a reasonable facsimilie of cad. It's

Good tip there, Greg!  Anyone have an opinion on Eastwood's various
paints & supplies, including semi-blacks and their "Golden Cad" 
plating system? I have an old catalog from them, so I don't know what
their latest stuff is, but I was thinking about getting an up-to-date
one and ordering some stuff when I get my garage built...

Ed Atlee			'77 Cutlass Supreme
eda@dl.tc.faa.gov		'84 Hurst/Olds
	R O C K E T	P O W E R E D ! !

------------------------------

From: kissrulz@gnn.com (Craig Dobbins)
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 06:01:01 -0300
Subject: '76 Toro 

Hello all,
  I'm considering buying a BIG boat, a 1976 toranado.  It has 51,000 original 
miles on it, a little rust in spots, and runs + drives well.  The asking 
price is $1200, but I can probably get it for $1000 even or Less.  Does 
anyone out there know what size engine is in this car, if there were any 
problems these cars experienced regularly or anything, and if this is a good 
deal or not?  It's going to be my second (winter car, my first is my '68 442 
convert. - summer/weekends).  I live around Buffalo, so you can guess what 
our cars go through.  Any returns from any Toro guys would be appreciated.

                                                             Thanks,
                                                               Craig

------------------------------

From: John Harris <John.Harris@rttc.redstone.army.mil>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 10:25:13 -0300
Subject: Embarrassing Story

Folks

I am the guy who keeps posting about 1969 rear ends.  Yall might get a
kick out of this little tale.  I now find a little humor in it even
though I am out $100 +.

O.K. here goes.  I bought a 1969 442 about 2 months ago.  I proceeded to
go out and stomp the accelerator to the floor.  I was consistently
leaving 1 long skinny black mark.   

While looking through the 1969 chasis manual I notice a listing of rear
axle codes.  I then proceed under the rear of the olds and find the axle
code.   It is 9S.  There is no 9S in the book.  However, there is a S9. 
Well I figure it is a S9 which is a 3:42 limited slip.  I figure that
the clutch packs are wore out.  I then proceed to the local Olds dealer
and have them special order the clutch disk pack.  That was $83.75
before tax.  I then call up DTS in MI and get a rear end bearing rebuild
kit.  That was $70.  

While in Atlanta at the Olds nationals I notice that a guy has a
complete rear end for sale.  I look on the axle housing for the code and
see something like FA.  BUT the FA was upside down.  It then dawns on me
that my 9S is really a S6.  Guess what?   A S6 is a damned ol 3.23 to 1
standard differential.  I have now spent $90 on clutch disks that I
can't get my money back on because they were a special order part!

I went back and found the build sheet on my car and sure enough no
option code was listed for a limited slip. I guess I won't be so hast
next time.  However i am still a little mad.  You would think that Olds
would have put a _ under the 6.

I went and looked in the chasis manual and they said that parts are
availiable to convert any standard differential to a limited slip.  That
was 1969 not 1996.  There are no parts availiable now.  Do any of you
have the parts???  I would need a new carrier.

Enough for now. I feel like Boo Boo the fool.

John Harris

------------------------------

From: grpruett@vt.edu (Greg Pruett)
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 02:37:44 -0300
Subject: Re: engine specs 

>I am trying to find the camshaft duration/lift specs for a '70 olds 455
>from a 442 W-30. 
>hanks
>Brad

I have a musty petersen publication called the complete book of engines that
lists specs for the year 1970.
Here are cam specs listed for the w-30 455 (370hp, 500ft/lb tq)

Lobe Lift; 
intake/exhaust:  .294/.294

Intake Timing;
opens 24 deg. BTC
closes 81 deg. ABC
duration 285 deg.

Exhaust Timing;
opens 74 deg. BBC
closes 33deg. ATC
duration 287 deg.

Overlap; 57 deg. 

Hope it was of some help.

Greg Pruett

Insert philosophical and/or amusing phrase here-----------

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 05:34:31 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds Recovered 

     Totalled just because of missing wheels and stereo equipment, or was 
     it wrecked?  Of course the guys are morons, why do you think they 
     resorted to theft in the first place!
     
     $8k seems about right, maybe just a bit high for the H/O, depending 
     upon how good of condition it's in.  If it's repainted, did it get new 
     stripes on it too?
     
     If he says he has to get rid of it, that's your clue to make him a 
     low-ball offer and wait a few days.
     
     Sorry about the loss of your ride, man!
     
     Tom L.

______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
Subject: Olds Recovered
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    8/10/96 8:04 PM


Well they found my olds.   It had no rims, no stereo, no clubs, no 
tools.  But they left the MSD6a, msd wires, acell supercoil, etc..   
Must have been morons, or just wern't thinking.  Well  the Insurance 
guy totalled it, and gave me check for it.  
     
 While looking for a new ride I found a 83 Hurst/Olds with lighting rods and 
all 
for $8000.00. 

------------------------------

From: Chris Fair <ChrisFair@fairisaac.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 12:59:12 -0300
Subject: Jaguar 

Can anybody tell me if there isa similar list for Jaguar cars? I'm
also interested in any good websites on these cars. Hunting for a 
friend of mine. Sorry to be off the topic, but look forward to your
replies!
chris fair

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 11:55:02 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds Recovered 

>     Totalled just because of missing wheels and stereo equipment, or was 
>     it wrecked?  Of course the guys are morons, why do you think they 
>     resorted to theft in the first place!

I'm just getting caught up because our system hung over the weekend, but
if I'm following this right, the settlement is a "financial" total, not a
"mechanical" total: the car _can_ be fixed (e.g. it hasn't got a bent frame)
but the value of the replacement parts exceeds the value of the car. For an
older car, that's an extremely easy pitfall to get into and a good reason to
get appraisals done on a regular basis to substantiate that _your_ car is
worth more than an average example.

In years past I've had to argue with Allstate once or twice for this; the
main hassle is if they give you a check which they think is the full value
of the car, they want you to sign the title over to them in exchange. Through
a lot of arguing and cajoling, I've been able to get the check for repairs
_and_ keep the car. It's up to you to argue this point with them if you feel
like it.

If it's only missing wheels, I can't see how they could total it. Often the
stereo is not covered anyway, unless you have a rider on the policy for it.
They may also quote outer-space replacement prices for parts which you can
get used, or at least a lot cheaper.

Apologies if this all restates other messages that haven't made their way
through our pokey site yet...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 16:06:31 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds Recovered

Dink wrote:
> 
> Well they found my olds.   It had no rims, no stereo, no clubs, no
> tools.  But they left the MSD6a, msd wires, acell supercoil, etc..
> Must have been morons, or just wern't thinking.  

Morons is being kind.  Likely they didn't know what half of it was and 
only interested in stuff they could use and/or fence.

> Well  the Insurance guy totalled it, and gave me check for it.

Well... at least you got some shopping money.  Is the car fixable or are 
you looking for a replacement?  Did they pay enough to replace the car?  
(Hope so.)

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: "Andrew A. Senko" <senko@reston.ans.net>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:04:18 -0300
Subject: Re: Hardened valve seats VS compression ratio

>> Brad (Gary Bowles) wrote:
>>  
>> I am now buying a '70 Olds 442 W-30.  It has a rebuilt 455.  When the guy
>> had it rebuilt, he had the valve seats hardened.  He claims this lowers
>> the compression ratio from 10.5 to about 9.5.  Is this true?  I know
>> motors, and the rebuild process, but I have never heard of a valve seat
>> hardening to change the compression ratio.  No other items have been
>> changed from the stock specks(i.e. rods, crank, piston heads, etc.) to
>> change the compression.  So is the compression really lowered?
>> Thanks
>> Brad

To which STEE911@aol.com replied:

> i have never heard that you can harden valve seats
> as far as i know you have to install hardened seats to prevent burning
> unhardned seats when using unleaded gas unless you use a addative to the
> gas
> i dont think that this would change the compression ratio unless excessive
> machining was performed to shave or mill the head surface possibly because
> of
> a warped head surface<<you can make up for this with a gasket and
> spacer<<available thru fel-pro


First of all, milling the heads will increase your compression ratio (CR),
not decrease it.

And secondly, if Chris Witt were here, he would tell you that the gaskets
he buys these days are thicker than the originals by about .030", and
therefore replacing the gaskets *without* milling the heads *will* lower
the CR some.

I, on the other hand, will tell you none of this, but simply repeat what
I've heard from Chris.  I agree, though, that to the best of my knowledge
the installation of hardened valve seats in itself should not lower your
CR.  As usual, those members with real experience here should speak up to
correct this, if need be.
- -- 
                    _
                    |\            Convertibles                     
     .__====-_._____|_\______         Rule!                        Drew Senko
     [   ___  |-     |  ___  \                           senko@reston.ans.net
     =\_//.\\_|______|_//.\\__)                  http://members.gnn.com/senko
_________\_/____________\_/______________________________ '71 C/S convertible

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 11:59:52 -0300
Subject: Re: Jaguar 

>Can anybody tell me if there is a similar list for Jaguar cars? I'm
>also interested in any good websites on these cars. Hunting for a 
>friend of mine. Sorry to be off the topic, but look forward to your
>replies!

I think there is still a british-cars@autox.team.net with a setup
similar to ours. You can also try http://www.eauto.com and see if
they have any listings there. Finally, there is a periodic posting
to the misc.consumers newsgroup (among others) from Richard Welty
with a master list of all known email lists like this.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: turley@symplex.com (Mike Turley)
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:14:50 -0300
Subject: '66 442 

Folks,
 
This is my first posting to the mailing list.  A little intro . . .
 
The first car I ever bought was a '66 442.  (This was 1983.)
It was a Holiday Coupe, 2 speed auto, w/ air; from San Antonio.
 
The car was in excellent shape, with the worst damage being from
the heat.  I owned the car for 5+ years, and sold it to a collector;
having done much of the restoration.  (Sold for financial reasons, etc.)
 
I located this car last week, and discovered it was for sale.  It
is nearly PERFECT (only 3300 additional miles in the 8 years).
 
I have a deposit on this car and the price is $10,500.  What I want
to know is whether this is a good price (remember 99% PERFECT), ie.
is it worth $10,500 without the sentimental value.
 
Also could someone provide me with some production figures for this
vehicle?  I know I never see any around.
 
Thanks,
 
Mike Turley
turley@symplex.com

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 16:16:04 -0300
Subject: Re: brakes and turnsignal problems with 72 Cutlass 

John Thomas wrote:
> 
> Also, the turnsignals do not work at all. The brake lights and tail
> lights work fine... 

Which tells you the wiring to them is fine.

> ...but when the turnsignal lever is switched up or down nothing 
> happens.  I've checked the fuses, the bulbs, and changed the blinker, 
> but I still don't have any turnsignals. 

John,

The flasher is switched to the lamps by a set of contacts and a cam in 
the steering column.  When you move the TS lever, it switches the lamp 
from the brake voltage to the flasher voltage.  Do the brake lamps work 
fine even if you move the TS lever?  

If the brake lamps stay lit (they should switch-off on one side) then it 
sounds like the lever/cam/contact assembly is broken (not switching).

If the lamp does switch off with the lever than you prolly have a wire 
off somewhere (under dash or in the column) since your not getting flash 
to the lamps (and we know the wiring to them is good).

Other possibility:  Some dork redid the wiring to get around a problem 
with the turn signals.  Look for electrical tape!

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: curly@sgi.net
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 13:17:02 -0300
Subject: Re: Hardened valve seats VS compression ratio 

At 05:19 PM 8/11/96 -0300, you wrote:
>I am now buying a '70 Olds 442 W-30.  It has a rebuilt 455.  When the guy
>had it rebuilt, he had the valve seats hardened.  He claims this lowers
>the compression ratio from 10.5 to about 9.5.  Is this true?  I know
>motors, and the rebuild process, but I have never heard of a valve seat
>hardening to change the compression ratio.  No other items have been
>changed from the stock specks(i.e. rods, crank, piston heads, etc.) to
>change the compression.  So is the compression really lowered?
>Thanks
>Brad
>
>
the guy is full of rubber dog sh*t it has no bearing on compression ratio,
which is the ratio of the volume of air when the piston is at bottom dead 
center
to the volume of air at top dead center..

Jeff
Quad 4 guy

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 13:56:07 -0300
Subject: Re: blower fan 

>The blower fan on my '72 cutlass wagon has stopped functioning.  I have 
>checked the fuses and they were all good.  Can anybody point me in a direction
>on where I can find the blower motor and trace the wires to see if there
>is a break in the circuit?  Or how to fix the old blower?

As others have said, it's slightly covered by the right-side fender and
is kind of behind the inner wheel well on the passenger's side. I have
not replaced a Cutlass blower, but in fixing a LeMans blower of that
year, I was able to do it without removing the hood, fender or tire by
unbolting from the bottom edge and wedging the fender and wheel well out
of the way with a couple pieces of wood.

Before ripping everything apart, though, follow the wiring and check the
connectors -- when a blower motor dies, it usually gives you plenty of
howling, squealing warnings. With a bad connector, it will abruptly quit,
which sounds more like the way you described your problem.

With the ignition on but the engine not running, and the ventilation
selector in any position other than OFF (select HEAT or VENT for now),
move the dash fan switch in and out of the HIGH speed position. If you 
can hear the high speed relay mounted on the firewall clicking, your 
dash switch is probably okay.

Leave the ignition on and the fan switch on a fairly high speed so you 
can wiggle wires under the hood until the blower comes to life to 
pinpoint the bad connection. If you can reach the blower itself, find
the two large wires plugged onto it, a purple wire and the black ground
wire. The purple one probably has a rubber boot over its spade connection;
the ground wire is probably a spade lug with a black plastic connector and
a squeeze hook lock holding it on. Work them both to see if they're solid.

Also find the resistor pack nearby; this will be a three or four wire
connector plugged onto a little panel screwed into the underhood heater
case. The connector is _really_ tight and may need a screwdriver to budge,
but check that it's not rotted. Unscrewing the panel will reveal two or
three resistor coils on the inside (in the airstream for cooling); check
that they are intact. These function to run the motor at the different
speeds (aside from HIGH).

Getting a test probe and checking for voltage in the wires might help,
too; check that the ground is good, then test the purple wire supplying
the blower, and work backwards until you find the problem. Good luck...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 16:55:30 -0300
Subject: Re: Temp sensor 

>I am still unable to locate a single-wire Temp sending unit on my '86 
>Olds 307 motor. Does ANYONE know the location of this sending unit? The 
>one I am looking for is a single-wire idiot light sender.

Try a different approach. Chilton has a manual called a Component Locator
Manual or something like that which gives the location of things like the
coolant warning switch. Among other places, Super Trak stores have a copy
of this which you can browse and photocopy in the store. Next time I'm at
our local store I'll check it out for you.

Needless to say, if somebody here has an Olds service manual, it'll be
shown in there, too.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 13:40:01 -0300
Subject: Fun with the Torque Wrench 

Had fine weather yesterday afternoon; decided to get Car #1 up on
jackstands to check the wheels. Tire rotation is overdue and the left
front brake is making a rumpity-rumpity vibration from a rotor that
seems to warping. Dealer said at purchase time that they'd put new
front brakes on already but couldn't cut the rotors since they'd be
down below minimum thickness and warp. Guess they weren't too wrong.
Figure on re-torquing lug nuts to see if I can stave off the inevitable
for a little while.

Just for yucks, decided to try using torque wrench to crack lugs loose
to see if I can get a ballpark estimate of what they were torqued to
previously. Discover that lugs are 19mm. Socket set only goes up to 17.
Blast! Trudge down alley to neighbor's house and borrow a socket. Stop
to admire '56 Ch*vy Bel Air convertible in neighbor's garage. Sigh...

Pop socket on torque wrench, slip over first lug nut, lean on it and--
discover to my horror that lug is only finger-tight. Try next lug...
they're all like that! Those idiots at the dealership! Those morons!
Those absolute-- Whoops. Turns out the black lug is a plastic screw-on
cap over the _real_ lug nut. Okay, never mind...

Crank setting on wrench up 10 lbs. at a time until each nut loosens 
without popping wrench; final results are 80/100/90/90/100. Hmmm.
Don't know if that's significant or not...

Tire rotation goes uneventfully. For accurate torquing, decide to put
one (1) drop of 3-in-1 oil on each stud and on taper of each lug nut,
since they're already looking a little oxidized. Torque each wheel to
100 ft./lbs. as specified in factory manual by tightening in star
pattern to 80, then 90, then 100. Just finishing the last wheel at my
90 ft./lb. setting when... a stud shears off. A _three_year_old_ stud.
Damn. Inspecting the stud shows a semi-circle of rough break and the
other semi-circle a smooth break. Metal flaw? Fatigue? This has never
happened to me before, although I never bothered to accurately torque
lug nuts before, either. Anyone else?

So for now I backed the other four nuts down to 80 until I can get a
new lug put in. And driving in to the office just now (~35 miles on
the expressway), I'd swear the warpy rotor feels much better now. Let's
see if it gets bad again in the near future...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 14:00:38 -0300
Subject: Re: brakes, misc. stuff 

>Proportioning valve is what I'll check next, I guess.  The booster was
>good when I put it on; I checked it to make sure.  Vacuum supply is 
>good, too.

I'd have thunk that a whacky proportioning valve could lock up one
or more wheels but leave the others free, but couldn't resist the 
pressure altogether to give you a dead pedal. Still sounds to me 
like you're not getting any power assist. How much vacuum draw do 
you get on the check valve? And can you compare that to a similar car?

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 16:24:00 -0300
Subject: Re: Jaguar

Chris,

ftp://ftp.wizvax.net/pub/personal/rwelty/Autos/mailing-lists.text

list the following:

	Jaguars
         (send requests to majordomo@psy.uwa.edu.au,
          command is "subscribe jag-lovers")

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 16:26:47 -0300
Subject: Re: Legislation

Spud wrote:
> 
> So, are palmetto bugs what's used for croutons in FL?  
> Sounds like a good name for abandoned VWs.

No, they're what we use for roaches.  
...and they're larger than VWs.
...and faster.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 12:26:10 -0300
Subject: Re: brakes and turnsignal problems with 72 Cutlass  

>> Also, the turnsignals do not work at all. The brake lights and tail
>> lights work fine... 
>
>Which tells you the wiring to them is fine.

Yup.

>> ...but when the turnsignal lever is switched up or down nothing 
>> happens.

Specifically, do the bulbs go out on the side you're trying to signal,
or do they stay on (i.e. keeping working with the brake pedal)? Does 
the green arrow on the dash go on?

>The flasher is switched to the lamps by a set of contacts and a cam in 
>the steering column.  When you move the TS lever, it switches the lamp 
>from the brake voltage to the flasher voltage.  Do the brake lamps work 
>fine even if you move the TS lever?  
>
>If the brake lamps stay lit (they should switch-off on one side) then it 
>sounds like the lever/cam/contact assembly is broken (not switching).

Very.

>If the lamp does switch off with the lever than you prolly have a wire 
>off somewhere (under dash or in the column) since your not getting flash 
>to the lamps (and we know the wiring to them is good).

Well, I would also suspect the turn signal switch itself at this point.
Mechanically, does the lever stay in either right or left position when
moved there, _and_ does it cancel properly when you unwind the wheel after
turning?

>Other possibility:  Some dork redid the wiring to get around a problem 
>with the turn signals.  Look for electrical tape!

Yeah, I'm leaning in this direction too. I think what could have happened
is that the signal switch in the column broke some time ago, and rather
than mess with replacing it (having done it myself now, I can tell you
that it requires a lot of disassembly and at least two special tools, a
wheel puller and a lock plate compressor), the previous owner probably
jumpered the wiring at the base of the steering column. If moving the
turn signal lever has absolutely no visible effect anywhere, this is
probably what happened. I suggest checking the wiring at the very long
(or wide, if you're stuck under the dash sideways :-) connector on the
right side of the steering column behind the dash. Look for anything
weird. If it's there, I doubt it will be hard to spot.

I should say that replacing the signal switch (which sounds pretty likely
at this point) is not _hard_, but involves a good amount of busywork. As
long as you keep track of which fastener goes where, you should get through
it fine. I can post more details on this sometime if there's interest; the
GM columns all come apart pretty much the same way, at least as far as the
level of the turn signal switch.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "BARKER A." <atbarker@mke9.ra.rockwell.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 16:38:20 -0300
Subject: Weekend drama

just thought I'd share what happened to my 81 cutlass yesterday morning.....

I let my brother use the car to go across the street and buy something from the
store.  He comes back 15 minutes saying " I just bought your car from you?"
he then proceeds to explain how the door opened up by itself and he fell out of
the car making a right turn, the car kept going as he recovers from rolling 
down
the street.  He chased the car while trying to stop traffic on the fairly busy
street.  I guess he couldn't catch the car, a telephone pole didn't mind
stopping it for him though, so he wouldn't have to keep running :).  Outcome,
bumper is pushed back to where the hood starts, just where it hit the pole. 
Looks kind of funny to tell you the truth.  I didn't mind too much, had plans
for the car but it was dying, the v6 has over 150,000 miles on it.  My brother
will give me some money for the car and I'll look for another one.  Now I'm
driving a 70 skylark wagon...68,000 original miles on the 350.  Great car, 
looks
like crap, got it really cheap a few weeks ago.  The cutlass will probably go 
to
the junkyard pretty soon, the body work would cost too much, and considering 
the
noises the engine was making, its not worth fixing....just thought I'd share 
the
story with you.  Time to save up for another olds

Tony
"modified 81 cutlass"

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 12:41:38 -0300
Subject: Re: Weekend drama 

>he then proceeds to explain how the door opened up by itself and he fell
>out of the car making a right turn, the car kept going as he recovers 
>from rolling down the street.

Dare I suggest he might want to wear a seat belt next time?

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:00:23 -0300
Subject: Re: Weekend drama

> >he then proceeds to explain how the door opened up by itself and he fell
> >out of the car making a right turn, the car kept going as he recovers 
> >from rolling down the street.

Wow! A very rare '81 Cutlass with both cruise control *AND* the E-Z-Matic(tm)
Power Doors!  And you wanna junk it? :)
 


Tim (Who's Gettin' Punchy as He Enters Vacation Mode) Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'88 Cadillac Brougham, a.k.a. 'Big Blue' -- Olds 307 Powered!!
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:30:11 -0300
Subject: RE: Weekend drama

E-Z Matic Power Doors? In my neck of the woods, we would call
it a Doofus Ejection Unit. How fast around the corner would he
have to be going to also have the steering wheel yanked out of
his hands...unless his hands weren't on the steering wheel..

- ----------
From: 	Timothy A. Churchill[SMTP:tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com]
Sent: 	Monday, August 12, 1996 1:00 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Re: Weekend drama


> >he then proceeds to explain how the door opened up by itself and he fell
> >out of the car making a right turn, the car kept going as he recovers 
> >from rolling down the street.

Wow! A very rare '81 Cutlass with both cruise control *AND* the E-Z-Matic(tm)
Power Doors!  And you wanna junk it? :)
 


Tim (Who's Gettin' Punchy as He Enters Vacation Mode) Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'88 Cadillac Brougham, a.k.a. 'Big Blue' -- Olds 307 Powered!!
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: "AUVAX7::RILES" <RILES%AUVAX7.decnet@auscam.amd.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:39:00 -0300
Subject: Re: blower fan

On my '71 Cutlass convertible, the blower fan only works on HIGH.  Anybody 
know if the 
problem is likely the switch itself or a relay that can be easily changed?

Thanks in advance.
Robert

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 07:34:43 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Hardened valve seats VS compression ratio 

     What's been said about head gaskets and valve seats affecting 
     compression ratio so far is good advice, but I would double check that 
     the heads are the right ones (D heads?) and that they didn't swap out 
     the heads for a later version with hardened seats.


______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Hardened valve seats VS compression ratio
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    8/12/96 9:34 AM


>> Brad (Gary Bowles) wrote:
>>  
>> I am now buying a '70 Olds 442 W-30.  It has a rebuilt 455.  When the guy 
>> had it rebuilt, he had the valve seats hardened.  He claims this lowers 
>> the compression ratio from 10.5 to about 9.5.  Is this true?  I know

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:33:24 -0300
Subject: Olds' on the big screen 

Who wants to summarize the use of Olds' in movies for inclusion in the FAQ?

How about a listing something like:

Movie               Year   What Olds   Comments
- -----               ----     ---------   --------
Summer of my Olds   '69    '68 H/O     Beats Ch*vy, F*rd, D*dge at track
                                       Not destroyed :).
Demo Man            '94    '70 442     A pinnacle of rebels independence.
                                       Suffers front end hurt :(.
Smash & Bash Days   '83    '70 D88     About to win demo derby until ganged
                                       up on.  Destroyed.

(1st and 3rd are made up)

How about it?

David Brown          OCA #27978         (312) 702-9157
    Check out: www.442.com      www.oldsmobile.com
               FAQ version 2.0 due soon!

------------------------------

From: "Jeff Hunter" <jchunter@xcelco.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:59:31 -0300
Subject: Re: '66 442

- ----------
> From: Mike Turley <turley@symplex.com>
> To: oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
> Subject: '66 442
> Date: August 12, 1996 12:14 PM

  
> Also could someone provide me with some production figures for this
> vehicle?  I know I never see any around.


A total of 21,997 '66 Oldsmobile 442's were produced including 2,750
convertibles and 54 W-30's.  

Jeff Hunter
jchunter@xcelco.on.ca

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:59:52 -0300
Subject: Re: blower fan 

>On my '71 Cutlass convertible, the blower fan only works on HIGH.
>Anybody know if the problem is likely the switch itself or a relay 
>that can be easily changed?

Actually HIGH is the only speed that _uses_ a relay. The lower speeds
go through a resistor pack mounted in the ductwork under the hood on
the passenger's side, and it sounds like the connector on yours may
have rotted out or fallen off. Find the large connector plugged into
the duct (it has about four wires on it and is either an "I" or "L"
shape) in the vicinity of the blower and see what shape it's in.
You also might want to unscrew the resistor plate itself and pull it
out for a look-see, to see if the coils (placed in the airstream inside
the duct for cooling) have broken.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: JJF97@uno.cc.geneseo.edu
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 16:11:35 -0300
Subject: Resto  Tips  .....

Want  a tip on how to show a judge that you really spent time restoring your
car??

Well, spendsome time detailing your gas cap  -- makesure it is the correct
"vented" or "non-vented" type, whichever you need --and detail around the
fuel filler neck.  It is the little things that count!

Resto Corner

- --joe ferrero

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 15:15:10 -0300
Subject: Re: engine specs 

These camshaft specs, courtesy of JWO and Greg Beaulieu for typing them in, 
are found in the 2.0 version of the FAQ (not out yet).

              Over Duration  Lift
Year Part #   lap  Int./Exh. Int./Exh.  Application
- ---- ------   ---- --------- ---------  -----------

1970 393859   58   286/286   .472/.472  350 4BC ex. AT, OAI, hi-perf
     400084   36   250/264   .400/.400  350 2BC, 4BC AT
     400117   44   258/272   .435/.435  455 ex. Pol., Toro
     400165   57   285/287   .472/.472  4257, 67, 4400 AT, Toro W-34
     402486    8   262/274   .440/.440  455 Toro ex. W-34
     402569  108   328/328   .475/.475  455 4400 ST OAI (W-30)
     406768   68   294/296   .472/.472  455 4400 ST ex. OAI
     402194   82   308/308   .474/.474  350 W-31 OAI

David Brown          OCA #27978         (312) 702-9157
    Check out: www.442.com      www.oldsmobile.com
               FAQ version 2.0 due soon!

- ---------------
I am trying to find the camshaft duration/lift specs for a '70 olds 455
from a 442 W-30.  The W-30 cam specs are different than the regular 442
cam.
hanks
Brad

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 15:57:34 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Hardened valve seats VS compression ratio 

I think what the rebuilder is trying to say, like Chris Witt found, is that 
replacement head gaskets are like .045", while the stock steel shim gaskets 
were around .028.

I think Chris found this drop the cr about 1/4 to 1/2 point.  He also found 
the factory advertised cr was not the actual, so that could probably make 
it 9.5 instead of 10.5.

>From the 2.0 FAQ:
[head loses 1.01cc per .005" cut]
Note: each cc of volume in the Clearance Volume affects the CRatio about 
0.1 point at these numbers [bore, stroke, etc.]

So, .017" more means loosing 3.5cc, which is about 1/3 point cr loss.  Other 
ideas?

David Brown          OCA #27978         (312) 702-9157
    Check out: www.442.com      www.oldsmobile.com
               FAQ version 2.0 due soon!

- --------------

> I am now buying a '70 Olds 442 W-30.  It has a rebuilt 455.  When the guy
> had it rebuilt, he had the valve seats hardened.  He claims this lowers
> the compression ratio from 10.5 to about 9.5.  Is this true?  
> Thanks
> Brad

------------------------------

From: Fernando Proietto <proietto@dow.on.doe.ca>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 00:45:31 -0300
Subject: Re: Embarrassing Story

John,
	 don't feel too bad. If it makes you feel any better, I think it's 
safe to say that this or something close 
to it has happened to everyone. You've learned a valuable lesson when it comes 
to restoring/playing with these cars. 
When they (anybody, who it's happened to) say total up what it takes to do the 
resto, then add an equal amount for 
misc and goof-ups, they weren't kidding. Live and learn fits just about right 
here!
- -- 
Regards
Fernando Proietto

------------------------------

From: Fernando Proietto <proietto@dow.on.doe.ca>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 00:55:57 -0300
Subject: Re: Embarrassing Story

Let's see a moment, has anything like this happen to me.....hmmm

Oh yeah, once I went soth of the border (I'm Canadaian, eh) and found my self 
at one of those franchise auto 
places, can't remember the name rightnow. Anyway asked for a bunch of parts, 
oil pump, fuel pump, water 
pump...etc. Assumed all to be correct and wouldn't you know it the water pump 
that the genius at the counter gave 
me was for an a/c car. Won't fir my non-a/c because all the pulleys are 
different size. Got stuck with a 
perfectly new pump which I went ahead and painted the correct gold colour for 
nothing. That won't ever happen 
again, right?  

BTW does anyone need a brand new water pump in original box for a a/c 350R 
painted gold. It's of no use to me. 
Really!


- -- 
Regards
Fernando Proietto

------------------------------

From: "BARKER A." <atbarker@mke9.ra.rockwell.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 19:05:32 -0300
Subject: RE: Weekend drama

My brother's too cool for seat belts, not on short trips you know.  He usually
drives with one hand at 12:00 on the wheel....he probably didn't have a chance
to grab the wheel, its a little Grant GT sport wheel.  :)

Tony


_______________________________________________________________________________


E-Z Matic Power Doors? In my neck of the woods, we would call
it a Doofus Ejection Unit. How fast around the corner would he
have to be going to also have the steering wheel yanked out of
his hands...unless his hands weren't on the steering wheel..

------------------------------

From: STEE911@aol.com
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 16:29:28 -0300
Subject: Fwd: Temp sensor 

try your public library
my little one in largo, fl has many old manuals for specific cars and general
ones by chilton, mitchell, haynes etc==you cant check some of them out but
sit there and read and zerox what you need
- ---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:	acg@dlogics.com (Andrew C. Green)
Sender:	oldsmobile-owner@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Reply-to:	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
To:	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Date: 96-08-12 12:26:50 EDT

>I am still unable to locate a single-wire Temp sending unit on my '86 
>Olds 307 motor. Does ANYONE know the location of this sending unit? The 
>one I am looking for is a single-wire idiot light sender.

Try a different approach. Chilton has a manual called a Component Locator
Manual or something like that which gives the location of things like the
coolant warning switch. Among other places, Super Trak stores have a copy
of this which you can browse and photocopy in the store. Next time I'm at
our local store I'll check it out for you.

Needless to say, if somebody here has an Olds service manual, it'll be
shown in there, too.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 15:36:24 -0300
Subject: Re: Fwd: Temp sensor 

>try your public library
>my little one in largo, fl has many old manuals for specific cars and general
>ones by chilton, mitchell, haynes etc==you cant check some of them out but
>sit there and read and zerox what you need

Oh, gawd, I should have said something when my post first came out this
morning...

It's old news, ancient history; I wrote it on July 12th and it's been
bunged up in the network somewhere ever since. The guy who wrote the
original question finally found the sending unit on his car about three
weeks ago now...  Sorry about that. I also heard from some guy I'd
sent a reply to about something or other back on 7/12; he'd seen the date
on my message when it finally arrived on his machine this morning and
wanted to know what sort of PC I was running. One of those blazing Z80s?

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 18:05:39 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Fwd: 1968 400 C.I. engine 

>From the FAQ I find that basically 1970 started the use of valve rotators and 
corresponding deep seat pockets because of the phasing out of the lead 
additive 
in gas.  I would have to agree with that because the '70 455 heads I have 
don't 
have recessed valve seats even though it had 20-30,000 put on it from '85 to 
'87.  The leaded gas at this time had almost no lead in it.  I would have to 
say
a '68 definitely doesn't have hardened valve seats.

David Brown          OCA #27978         (312) 702-9157
    Check out: www.442.com      www.oldsmobile.com
               FAQ version 2.0 due soon!

- -------------------
>Is it untrue that GM has used hardened seats since the midfifties?  
>Spud     "Fart proudly."

Yes, it is untrue.  I don't think hardened seats were used till the
seventies, when leaded gas was on it's way out...I'm sure somebody here will
have the correct info...
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 12:14:46 -0300
Subject: Re: Resto tip(s): Building wire harnesses

Esko Ilola wrote:
> 
> How to make reliable, good looking wiring harnesses
> ---------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> **********************************************
>  Esko Ilola                                


Esko:

Thanks a lot.  I am saving this advice w/some others that I have (100's) 
gotten here.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 12:21:26 -0300
Subject: Re: Embarrassing Story

> 
> John,
>          don't feel too bad. If it makes you feel any better, I think it's 
safe to say that this or something close
> to it has happened to everyone.
> Fernando Proietto

John:

Cheer up.  It is nice to hear you laughing, because we are.  We are 
laughing because we have done all that & more.  It is funny because we 
have even more to which to look forward.  We have to laugh because it 
does little good to cry.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 10:12:44 -0300
Subject: Re: brakes, misc. stuff

At 02:00 PM 7/14/96 -0300, you wrote:
>Still sounds to me 
>like you're not getting any power assist.

That's what it feels like, but I was sure the booster was good.  The old one
leaked vacuum, which made the engine miss.  I checked the new one before I
installed it.  It worked, and it doesn't currently leak.

> How much vacuum draw do 
>you get on the check valve?

Don't know; I don't have any way to check it.  If I take the check valve out
of the booster with the engine running, it's suckin' pretty strong...

>And can you compare that to a similar car?

Ummm, nope.  No similar cars at my disposal.  I'm going to replace the front
rubber brake lines next.  They're original (I think).
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 16:45:00 -0300
Subject: Re: brakes, misc. stuff 

At 10:12 AM 8/12/96 -0300, you wrote:
>At 02:00 PM 7/14/96 -0300, [I] wrote:
             ^^^^^^^
>>Still sounds to me 
>>like you're not getting any power assist.
>
>That's what it feels like, but I was sure the booster was good.  The old one
>leaked vacuum, which made the engine miss.  I checked the new one before I
>installed it.  It worked, and it doesn't currently leak.

Well, at least we still have _this_ problem to kick around a month later...

Okay, wild-assed guess: Suppose this system has the type of warning light
switch consisting of a piston midway between the two brake systems (maybe
they _all_ do; I dunno), and at some point in the past a system failure
drove the piston all the way to one end or the other, triggered the light
(or maybe not) and remained stuck there. Possibly this is interfering with
one or both systems? Uh, do all four wheels actually stop the car, lack of
power assist notwithstanding? I think you said you hadn't replaced the
proportioning valve yet; is that where the warning light wire connects?

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 18:13:13 -0300
Subject: Re: '76 Toro 

At 05:01 AM 8/12/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Hello all,
>  I'm considering buying a BIG boat, a 1976 toranado.  It has 51,000 original 
>miles on it, a little rust in spots, and runs + drives well.  The asking 
>price is $1200, but I can probably get it for $1000 even or Less.  Does 
>anyone out there know what size engine is in this car, if there were any 
>problems these cars experienced regularly or anything, and if this is a good 
>deal or not?  It's going to be my second (winter car, my first is my '68 442 
>convert. - summer/weekends).  I live around Buffalo, so you can guess what 
>our cars go through.  Any returns from any Toro guys would be appreciated.
>
>                                                             Thanks,
>                                                               Craig

That Toro would have the 455; in 1977 they went to the 403, and then the
downsized body style. It would make an excellent winter car, as the Toros
got heavier and heavier, so that combined with FWD gives you lots-o-traction
(plus, the smogger 455 won't overpower the tires like an early 425 would... ;)

Add in the low miles, the comfort and safety of three-tons of Oldsmopower,
and the overall lack of desireability of the second-generation Toronados, it
would make the perfect car for careening around the streets of Buffalo on an
icy winter commute.

Hey, add this guy to our mini-Toro list! 

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
- - 1978 Electra Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: Blaine Sanders 5483 <BLAINES@strata3d.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:23:07 -0300
Subject: Olds Recovered -Reply 

>Well they found my olds.   It had no rims, no stereo, no clubs, no 
>tools.  But they left the MSD6a, msd wires, acell supercoil, etc..   
>Must have been morons, or just wern't thinking.  Well  the Insurance 
>guy totalled it, and gave me check for it. 

Congrats on the recovery.  My condolences for the death of your car,
tho.  I don't know if all ins. companies are the same, but when my '84
renault got rear-ended, they totalled it and gave me a check for $650 (I
bought the car for $200), then they _let me buy it back_ for $50, because
that's all they would have got from the scrap yard.  Then I turned around
and traded it in on my new truck for $400.  So I came out $800 ahead.  If
your insurance co. has the same policy, you could have gotten your car
back, *and* got the money.  Just a thought...

- -Blaine
'72 Cutlass Supreme

------------------------------

From: Blaine Sanders 5483 <BLAINES@strata3d.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:11:33 -0300
Subject: Re: Movies -Reply 

>I rented both "The Dark Half" and "Needful Things" this weekend.  No
>Oldsmobiles in NT, but that Toro in TDH, what a car!  Never really had a
>good look at one (that I can remember).  Was considering a 67 Cutlass
>for my next car purchase, but now I'll probably be looking for a 66
>Toro.  

Yeah, me too.  I'm looking at a fully restored 69 Cutlass right now, but I
just saw in the local want ads the following:

1966 Oldsmobile Toro-
nado, antique classic,
all original, see to app-
reciate, make offer.

What a crapper!  I look 4 years for another Olds to buy with no luck. 
Then, as soon as I break down and buy a new truck, I find two that I
really want and I don't have any money!  Well, as of yesterday, my truck
is for sale.  I only hope it sells before those other two cars do...

- -Blaine
'72 Cutlass Supreme

------------------------------

From: Blaine Sanders 5483 <BLAINES@strata3d.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:46:14 -0300
Subject: Swap meet finds..... -Reply 

>Came across a tri-power olds intake for $125, NOS 70, 71 and 72 rear
>bumpers for $150 each.

That's it!  I'm moving to a big city!  I need a rear bumper for my '72 Cutlass.
 Cheapest NOS bumpers I've seen are $300 (+ a fortune for shipping!).  

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 11:51:18 -0300
Subject: Re: brakes, misc. stuff

At 04:45 PM 8/12/96 -0300, you wrote:

>Well, at least we still have _this_ problem to kick around a month later...
>
>Okay, wild-assed guess: Suppose this system has the type of warning light
>switch consisting of a piston 
                        ^^^^^^

Where?  In the proportioning valve?  Or master cylinder?  

>midway between the two brake systems 

>Uh, do all four wheels actually stop the car, lack of
>power assist notwithstanding? 

Yes 

>I think you said you hadn't replaced the
>proportioning valve yet; is that where the warning light wire connects?

Yes it is
>
>Andrew C. Green            
>Datalogics, Inc.
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 11:56:35 -0300
Subject: Insurance

Back in the early 80's, when my father in law still owned my Olds, he
wrecked it (just dented a fender and bent the hood).  Repairs were going to
cost more than the value of the car, so he paid the insurance company the
difference (about $100) for the repairs in order to keep the car.
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 19:43:01 -0300
Subject: Re: 4 to 7 blade fan replacement

On Sun, 11 Aug 1996, Craig Dobbins wrote:
>   I own a '68 442 convert, all matching #'s, has the original 400 engine.  I 
> know from experience that these engine's run hot.  I picked up a 7-blade 
Olds 
> fan w/clutch (not sure if from a '68 or '70 or '71, but one of those) for 
> almost nothing.  I want to replace my 4-blade with the 7-blade to keep the 
> engine cooler.  Is there anything I should know before I just start 
> wrenching?  Should I leave the origianl clutch in there, or replace the 
whole 
> thing or what?  If anyone knows anything about this, please write back to 
me, 

Craig,

If it's anything like my '68 350, the clutch fan won't fit. I tried the 
same thing and it fouled on the power steering pump. The clutch fan 
apparently came with the HD cooling or A/C options and had a different 
water pump with a longer neck. Unless you can dummy up a spacer I don't 
think it'll work.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 18:44:06 -0300
Subject: Re: brakes, misc. stuff 

>>Okay, wild-assed guess: Suppose this system has the type of warning light
>>switch consisting of a piston 
>                        ^^^^^^
>Where?  In the proportioning valve?  Or master cylinder?

It would be wherever the warning light wire plugs in... 

>>I think you said you hadn't replaced the
>>proportioning valve yet; is that where the warning light wire connects?
>
>Yes it is

Into the middle of the valve body, by any chance? Half the brake lines on
either side of it?

Basically you've got a little piston in the middle of a cylinder bore,
and around the "waist" of the piston is a recessed area in which the
head of a plunger rests, perpendicular to the cylinder bore. If the 
piston moves either way in its bore, the plunger is pushed outwards 
from the recess.

So what's pressing on the piston from either end are both brake systems,
one at each end. Should one system fail, pressure at that end collapses
and pressure from the _other_ end shoves the piston off-center. The head
of the plunger is pressed out of its recess and triggers the BRAKE light
on your dash. My flaky theory is that the piston is still stuck at one
end of its bore and is blocking the system that failed at some point in
the past. Testing to see if there's continuity through the warning light
terminal to ground through the valve body would be interesting. Hopefully
it will not be grounded that way; this would indicate that the switch has
been triggered and the valve may be jammed.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Nick DiGiovanni <ndigiova@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 20:30:12 -0300
Subject: Re: 4 to 7 blade fan replacement 

On Sun, 11 Aug 1996, Craig Dobbins wrote:
>>   I own a '68 442 convert, all matching #'s, has the original 400 engine.  
I 
>> know from experience that these engine's run hot.  I picked up a 7-blade
Olds 
>> fan w/clutch (not sure if from a '68 or '70 or '71, but one of those) for 
>> almost nothing.  I want to replace my 4-blade with the 7-blade to keep the 
>> engine cooler.  Is there anything I should know before I just start 
>> wrenching?  Should I leave the origianl clutch in there, or replace the
whole 
>> thing or what?  If anyone knows anything about this, please write back to
me, 
>
>Craig,

According to my service manual the 'A' Body (with 8 cyl.) fans were either
6-blade or 4-blade for that motor.  A 18" 7-blade was used on the L-6
engine.  Since the 4-blade fan does not have the clutch, you will actually
get better cooling than with the clutch fan.  This is because the non-clutch
fan is always fully engaged and will constantly keep the rad cooler.
If you want to go with the clutch fan, then you will need to get a pulley
from an A/C or H/D car to replace your existing pulley and you will need a
water pump from the same type of car.  Hope this helps.


 
Nick DiGiovanni
Port Coquitlam, B.C.
1970 4-4-2 - "Snarls Softly and Carries a Big Kick"

------------------------------

From: Nick DiGiovanni <ndigiova@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 20:30:19 -0300
Subject: Re: 4 to 7 blade fan replacement 

At 07:43 PM 8/12/96 -0300, you wrote:

>Unless you can dummy up a spacer I don't think it'll work. 
>
>Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

I've read in my service manual that you should never use a spacer with a
clutch fan.  It doesn't say why and I really don't know.  I can only think
it is because of the added weight of the clutch and being further away from
the hub of the water pump that would make it more prone to turning off
balance (?)

Nick DiGiovanni
Port Coquitlam, B.C.
1970 4-4-2 - "Snarls Softly and Carries a Big Kick"

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 22:28:18 -0300
Subject: I'm Baaack 

Hey!

How are y'all doin' ?

Just got in at 3pm from OCA Nats.  Can't believe it's over already!  Peg is
the only person I saw (at the awards banquet, she didn't see me).

Time to start gettin' ready for Lansing.

So what did I miss?

Paul

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #264
********************************

 
