
oldsmobile-digest         Wednesday, 12 June 1996      Volume 01 : Number 201


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Michael Blennerhassett <blenner@fhs.csu.McMaster.CA>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 10:17:31 -0300
Subject: Re: The Flaming Dubonette

endless sympathy - hope the repairs go OK.  

Rough having to drive in the rain - I can only imagine a pristine '66 Toro.  
For me, detailing is removing the snow tires in mid-summer...  
 

Just to share, my parts '66 Toro actually has a set of snow tires - wait 
for it - on the back axle.  


all the best;

real Canadian car'n Michael

------------------------------

From: Willie Fruean <aceface@ohana.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 10:43:26 -0300
Subject: Suggestions?

I am having trouble with my engine in my '57 Super 88. I think I blew 
it. I am going to try to salvage it. I don't think I will ever find 
another! Does anyone know where there is a 371 for sale? =) While I am 
salvaging it can anyone suggest a swap for it? I was wondering what I 
could put in it and still use my Hydramatic tranny? Has anyone done this 
before? If not I will just have to break down and get a new tranny I 
guess. Can any one help me or give me advise?

Willie
'57 Olds Super 88

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 15:53:40 -0300
Subject: Re: The Flaming Dubonette

Michael Blennerhassett wrote:

> Just to share, my parts '66 Toro actually has a set of snow tires 
> - wait for it - on the back axle.

Arf-arf!

Reminds me of an *OFFICIAL OLDS RELATED* joke:
Q: What's a (fill in favorite state here) Toronado?
A: A 62 Ch*vy sitting in the yard with snow tires on the front.


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 15:55:37 -0300
Subject: Re: Suggestions?

Willie Fruean wrote:
> 
> I am having trouble with my engine in my '57 Super 88. 
> I think I blew it.

Oh, man!  This just keeps getting worse!


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Peter_Teubel_at_Safety1st-MA@harte-hanks.com
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 15:03:46 -0300
Subject: Re: Suggestions? 

     I have a 303 V8 from a '51 Olds 98 available if you're interested.  
     Since my HydroMatic tranny is junk, I'm putting a modern engine and 
     tranny in it instead of spending big bucks on fixing the trans.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Suggestions?
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at ~INTERNET
Date:    6/11/96 9:08 AM


I am having trouble with my engine in my '57 Super 88. I think I blew 
it. I am going to try to salvage it. I don't think I will ever find 
another! Does anyone know where there is a 371 for sale? =) While I am 
salvaging it can anyone suggest a swap for it? I was wondering what I 
could put in it and still use my Hydramatic tranny? Has anyone done this 
before? If not I will just have to break down and get a new tranny I 
guess. Can any one help me or give me advise?
     
Willie
'57 Olds Super 88
     

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:26:16 -0300
Subject: Re: Upper Control Arm Bushings 

At 16.47 06,10,96 -0300, you wrote:
>Should these be replaced if they are obnoxiously noisy but otherwise OK? I
would think that the squeaking is a sign of the rubber deteriorating and
they should be replaced... Any opinions? Thanks, Joanne
>
>

replace them with Polyurethane units...it will be alot more solid in the
turns...
                         zack
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\         "I only kill to know i'm alive"
 *************

------------------------------

From: Paul Bartlett <bartletp@osshe.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:39:56 -0300
Subject: Toronado Electric Window Relay

I have a 1966 Olsmobile Toronado that needs a new relay that powers the
electric windows and electric seats.  The relay is behind the left panel
under the dash.  I have had no luck in finding a new relay.  Apparently
the part number from the Oldsmobile parts catalog is 4540898, but this
part is long discontinued. 

Has anyone else had to replace this relay and if so, where did you find
the part?  Has anyone else found some other kind of relay that would work
in its place? 

Any suggestions would be most appreciated.  Thanks, 

Paul Bartlett
E-mail bartletp@osshe.edu

------------------------------

From: Frank Boerger <103454.317@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:50:10 -0300
Subject: Olds Nationals

As a new oldsophile, I'm not quite yet up to speed on the clubs/events that are
"musts".

I've heard the the OCA "National" event is in August in Atlanta.

Since this only about 275 miles for me, I'm guessing this is a must attend.

Anyone know the dates ?

Also, where is the info for joining OCA ?

Thanks again to all, 

Frank Boerger
'68 Cutlass convert & coupe (parts).

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 17:16:32 -0300
Subject: Re: Upper Control Arm Bushings 

In a message dated 96-06-11 13:30:18 EDT, you write:

>At 16.47 06,10,96 -0300, you wrote:
>>Should these be replaced if they are obnoxiously noisy but otherwise OK? I
>would think that the squeaking is a sign of the rubber deteriorating and
>they should be replaced... Any opinions? Thanks, Joanne
>>
>>
>
>replace them with Polyurethane units...it will be alot more solid in the
>turns...
>                         zack

But it will still squeek!

Bob Handren  OCA#7728
'67 W-30 Modified
'70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 17:16:45 -0300
Subject: Re: Suggestions? 

In a message dated 96-06-11 09:54:28 EDT, you write:

>I am having trouble with my engine in my '57 Super 88. I think I blew 
>it. I am going to try to salvage it. I don't think I will ever find 
>another! Does anyone know where there is a 371 for sale? =) While I am 
>salvaging it can anyone suggest a swap for it? I was wondering what I 
>could put in it and still use my Hydramatic tranny? Has anyone done this 
>before? If not I will just have to break down and get a new tranny I 
>guess. Can any one help me or give me advise?
>
>

My first car was a '56 88, I even worked for a Olds dealer the summer of the
'57 model year.  You can install a 394.  As best I can recall the only
problem was with the exhaust manifolds.  They are different for the 394 and
you need them to install it properly.  And, of course, the exhaust pipe will
be different as well.  I remember particularly the drivers side.  Had to have
pipe custom made.

You can probably find a 371 or many in a Hemmings Motor News and of course,
Journey With Olds the monthly for the Olds Club of America.

For all that trouble and apparently aren't bothered with originality (I'm
not) why not go the whole mile and drop in a later model big block, like a
455 with a TH400?  You could probably do that for the same or less money.
Lots of room in that engine compartment.

Bob Handren Oca# 7728
'67 W-30 Modofied
'70 SX Convertible

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 17:18:29 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds Nationals 

In a message dated 96-06-11 13:58:15 EDT, you write:

>I've heard the the OCA "National" event is in August in Atlanta.
>
>Since this only about 275 miles for me, I'm guessing this is a must attend.
>
>Anyone know the dates ?
>
>

7-11 August.  90% of the judging is performed on _FRIDAY_.

OCA 
PO Box 80318
Lansing, MI 48908

1 year 3rd class mail = $30
     "   1st class mail = $40

There are also about 40 local or specialized chapters.

Bob Handren  OCA #7728
'67 W-30 Modified
"70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 21:15:22 -0300
Subject: Re: The Flaming Dubonette 

Hi all,

Just a quick note to keep you all up to date. My insurance company said it
will be covered 100%! And there is no deductible!  YIPPI!!! A claims adjuster
will be coming out to look at it soon. 

So far, I highly recommend these people (The Grundy Insurance
Agency....Collector Vehicle Program). Two years ago I saw their ad in
Hemmings and thought I would give them a shot. So far, so good!  Lets hope it
all turns out the way it should.

Thanks again for all the sympathy notes. It really helped.

Sparky

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:37:52 -0300
Subject: Re: The Flaming Dubonette 

In a message dated 96-06-11 09:23:54 EDT, you write:

>endless sympathy - hope the repairs go OK.  
>
>Rough having to drive in the rain - I can only imagine a pristine '66 Toro.
 
>For me, detailing is removing the snow tires in mid-summer...  
> 

Mike,

Thanks for the kind thoughts! 

It really wasn't that bad to my amazement! It must have been a clean rain or
something. A few hours with the shammie and all was back to normal. It was
more the thought of it than anything else.  Looking good again!

As an aside, Our shop is on an old highway that all the car buffs take to
cars shows in the state. I have seen many a hot rod and antique classic cars
drive by in the rain with thier $10,000 paint jobs on them.  Not to mention
all that chrome getting dirty!   YIKES!
I figure, if they can do it, I can to in Toronado that is worth a fraction of
what they drive!

Everything is relative I guess......

Sparky

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:37:46 -0300
Subject: Re: Upper Control Arm Bushings 

In a message dated 96-06-11 13:30:18 EDT, you write:

>At 16.47 06,10,96 -0300, you wrote:
>>Should these be replaced if they are obnoxiously noisy but otherwise OK? I
>would think that the squeaking is a sign of the rubber deteriorating and
>they should be replaced... Any opinions? Thanks, Joanne
>>
>>

Joanne,

I had the same deal with one of my Toros. Wasn't sure at first what it was
until I drove in the rain. For the next few days, the car drove squeek free!
 Does this happen to you? I just bought some lithium grease in the spray can
and nailed every bushing I could find! No more squeaks!  If this helps you, I
wouldn't replace the bushings, that is, unless there are rotten and falling
to pieces! Then it may be a wise and safe thing to do!

Sparky

------------------------------

From: ne1469@ix.netcom.com (Karl Davlin )
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:46:16 -0300
Subject: RE: Looking for Parts

Roger,

    I looked through a JC Whitney catalog and I didn't see a front 
bumper for a '72 Cutlass.  Is your catalog up to date?  

                                Thanks again,
                                           Karl

You wrote: 
>
>>
>>	I'm looking for various parts for a '72 Olds Cutlass hardtop.  My 
wishlist 
>>includes:
>
>...
>
>Try Oldsmobile USA - 	info # (703) 335 - 1935
>			fax order (703) 335 - 0904
>			order  (800) 872 - 2013
>			fax order   (703) 872 - 2014
>
>They have most of the parts you want/need.  New or rebuilt and even 
>reproduction.
>
>JC Whitney has the bumpers.  Front is around $400.
>
>Roger M. Borlase
>'72 cutlass wagon
>http://www.cjnetworks.com/olds/noframesreg/borlase.html
>
>

------------------------------

From: Buddha <buddha@itw.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:55:21 -0300
Subject: Re: Upper Control Arm Bushings 

At 17.16 06,11,96 -0300, you wrote:

>>replace them with Polyurethane units...it will be alot more solid in the
>>turns...
>>                         zack
>
>But it will still squeek!
>

i know...but you can cut down on squeaking ALOT by using the right
lube...but the best bet is...they wil last almost FOREVER
                         zack

>Bob Handren  OCA#7728
>'67 W-30 Modified
>'70 SX Convertible
>Oviedo, FL
>
>
      ___
     /. .\
    _\_*_/_                     -<Buddha>-
   / /   \ \                   Buddha@itw.com
   \_\___/_/            HTTP://www2.itw.com/~buddha/
  /___\_/___\         "I only kill to know i'm alive"
 *************

------------------------------

From: jrjet@whidbey.net (Dot & Tim McChesney)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 00:05:04 -0300
Subject: 83-84 H/O parts 

Hi All,

        Saw an ad for 83-84 hurst olds repo fairings, hood scoop, air dam,
and spoiler.  If I remember some of you are looking for these parts.
        Lauren Engineering
        Dept. CC
        515 W. Valencia Dr.
        Ste. G,
        Fullerton, CA 92632
        (714)871-cars

hope this helps
Tim McChesney
71 cutlass convertable

------------------------------

From: OLDSPWR@aol.com
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:54:26 -0300
Subject: 84 NY with 84 Cutlass??? 

Did any of you guys happen to be traveling interstate 84 in New York with an
'84 (approx. year) Cutlass that was dark blue, with duals, Firebird trunk
spoiler, 14x6 Chrome stock SS rims in tow behind a pickup????  Tom Millard
OLDSPWR@aol.com

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 00:06:52 -0300
Subject: Re: Toronado Electric Window Relay 

Paul,

Hmmmm. Not sure that the relay does both windows and seat.

However, heres a start.

POWER SEAT RELAY

S13.095A  61-75 ALL 4 way.............................21.76
S13.095B  61-75 ALL 6 way.............................21.76

No listing for power window relays on any Olds in this catalog...

These numbers are from:

Oldmobile USA Parts Supply Limited
703-335-1935

I left my 66 shop manual up north, otherwise I could better pinpoint this
discrepancy.
Call them though, if they have a seat relay, they more than likely have the
window or combined relay too. If not, they may be able to tell you where to
get them. If you have no luck, get back to me and I will snoop around in the
Toro Chapter for you.

Greg

------------------------------

From: "Roger M. Borlase" <BORLASE@gordonc.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 00:05:40 -0300
Subject: RE: Looking for Parts 

>    I looked through a JC Whitney catalog and I didn't see a front 
>bumper for a '72 Cutlass.  Is your catalog up to date?  

Karl,

I have one that is a little old.  Don't know the dates.  Also don't have the 
catalog with me.  I'm heading home (NH) this weekend and will bring it back.  
I'll email you the part numbers when I get back...

Very truly yours,

Roger Borlase

------------------------------

From: Dan Williams <dr_olds@kfmw.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 17:38:08 -0300
Subject: Re: The Flaming Dubonette & Engine Gernades

Geez!  fire-breathing Toros and blown engines.  Not things you want to 
hear happening to Oldsmobiles.  My sympathies.

On a high note, I finally and I mean finally got my 442 for the first 
time.  Yeah!  Cruised it around for a about 45 min with no problems.  
Yeah again.  Go to pull in the garage (which isn't an easy feat with 
this car -- power stearing doesn't work, bad angle to pull in (have to 
back and forth it), and it is a steep hill combined with a hard clutch).  
Anyway, I kill the car trying to carefully get it in and can't get it 
restarted.  Have to use the battery starter and some starting fluid.  
Back and forth it some more and it dies again.  Have to repeat entire 
process over.  Damn this quadrajets are hard to start.  When it had a 
Holley on there, it always started.  Probably needs some adjusting.  
Anyway, Better to have problems at home and not on the road.  

Also, I finally got my plates from the DMV after being rejected for my 
other attempts.  End up with 442MUCH.  Not my first (second, third, 
etc.) choice but not too bad.

- -Dan

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 00:37:13 -0300
Subject: Re: Suggestions? 

In a message dated 96-06-11 09:54:28 EDT, you write:

>I am having trouble with my engine in my '57 Super 88. I think I blew 
>it.

Willie,

Tell us more....what makes you think you 'blew' the mill?  Need more
information here before we go running around trying to retro you an engine!
Unless it took a direct hit from a Scud, me thinks it can breath life again!
 Hopefully...... anyway!

Sparky

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 00:39:28 -0300
Subject: variety o' things

> From: Miles Lott <milos@insync.net>
> Subject: Dash Parts
> I need a dash piece that holds the radio, etc. on a '72 Cutlass

That I got. -Chris, wittchri@pilot.msu.edu


> and reving the engine the fan pulls in the radiator into its path. You can ima
gine the rest of the horror
> on you own, I can't write about it any longer. A perfectly good 3-core rad tor
n to pieces!! HAVE A NICE DAY!!!@@@!!
> Fernando Proietto

Oooops! Dang, I feel for ya. If one were to look for a bright side, uh, well,
you get a NEW radiator now... maybe a 4-row?  -Chris-

> Just curious: Did they actually use _different_ power window motors
> in the rear doors as compared to the front? And are there different
> units for right vs. left sides?
> Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431

Well, I just found that the one from the LF door of a 68 98 LSedan is just like
that from the L door of a 66 Toro, except the motor is a slight bit shorter.
Ass'y is otherwise interchangeable. And there seems to L & R units, though the
MOTOR parts look the same, just the gear housing/ mount unit is different.
- -chris-

>                 Calibrations developed specifically for the Olds 405
>                 (?!?!) and 455 engines as installed in GMC motorhomes
>                 All GM diagnostic features...

405... must be a 403 bored about 0.001" oversize. -Chris-


>  Looking for suggestions as to rebuild the caliper or just purchase one
> rebuilt.  Read thru the Haynes manual and they talk about cleaning
> everything with brake cleaner or denatured alcohol and using compressed
> air to remove the piston.  Don't have either.
> Help JK McCall

Well, depends on your time/$ ratio... unless your are real short on $ and real
long on time, just swap in a rebuilt unit... & be on your way, hassle-free.
- -Chris-

> >8.  Torgue converter cover for an automatic

Real hard to find them TC covers for MT cars anymore... :-o

> >While Greg was re-installing the Wonderbar, a short somewhere apparently
> >caused the wiring harness to catch fire.
>
> How much damage is there, and what can we do to help?
> Paul

Hey, Greg, if you cannot find a new wiring harness, I have one awaiting a
Purpose In Life... -Chris-


>     Would you happen to know what years would work for a '72 Cutlass
> rear window power units.  For example, will a Lamans, Skylark, or
> Chevelle power units including the regulators work in my Cutlass?
>                                     Karl

Don't see why not- all GM A-bodies oughta be same in this regard. -Chris-
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: WMACHINES@aol.com
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 00:46:46 -0300
Subject: Re: MB: CUTLASS DASH HELP!!!!!!!! 

JIM THANKS FOR THE INFO ABOUT ORIGINALITY PLUS.  THEY HAVE A PERFECT
DASH PAD FOR ME, BUT WANT $225.00 FOR IT AND I HAVE A HARD TIME PARTING WITH
THAT SUM OF MONEY.  ANYMORE LEADS WOULD BE APPRECIATED BY YOU OR ANYBODY
ELSE.  BY THE WAY THE CAR I AM RESTIFING IS A 1972 W30 SADDLE BRONZE COLOR
WITH SADDLE INTERIOR.             THANKS W MACHINES (MARK PRINCE OF DETROIT
MI.)

------------------------------

From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 00:50:12 -0300
Subject: Help with carb#, non-olds engine

Went to Padnos yesterday... yep, got a carb, etc.

Found a nice big 455? of ?? Origin- hey, maybe it's a 394 engine, need help
ID'ing it.

GM xst manifolds, "4 1/8" cast in the block hear thge dist'r hole, in the rear
of the block. CHROME rocker arm covers, with 4 attaching bolts. Intake does not
seal the valley- separate tray does that. Square-bore carb # 7019050... 1959
??? What make car is that for?  Has trans [auto] attached. Block has -3- freeze
plugs per side [4-bolt Poncho 455?  :) ] Water pump inlet boss curves to point
straight down...
   Oh! had a sediment bowl type fuel filter, attached to the Olds-like oil fill
tube at front of engien, with a bracket & wire-hose clamp, just like a 66
tri-carb setup [I snagged that right away!]. Has a dual-diaphragm fuel pump,
dismantleable. On the RH side of the block front, like an Olds...

That's all I can recall right now... Should I go get it? [sure I should!] What
the heck IS it? Starfire 394" motor? Why the CHROME RAC's? Factory option?
Appears freshly yanked out of the car, not hopped up or anything. Don't even
know if it turns or not. I asked the guys to move it aside sothe giant loader
won't shove it into the pile and break it.

How can I tell a 394-type engine anyhow? Any ID cues? Water pump shape?

Thanks for any assistance you can render. Gotta move quickly or someone else
will snag it...
- --
Chris  B. Witt         *the* Rocket Scientist
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 01:00:06 -0300
Subject: Re: The Flaming Dubonette & Engine Gernades 

In a message dated 96-06-11 23:23:01 EDT, you write:

>Damn this quadrajets are hard to start.

Dan,

There is a reason why they don't start good. Besides being junk to begin
with, the plugs invariably always leak. Just a bad design........ period! I'm
working on a fix (as suggested by Mike Frederick). I will be bench testing
soon.

>442MUCH.

I like that! Just wondering, what were your first choices?

Sparky

------------------------------

From: "Roger M. Borlase" <BORLASE@gordonc.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 01:09:35 -0300
Subject: Re: MB: CUTLASS DASH HELP!!!!!!!! 

>JIM THANKS FOR THE INFO ABOUT ORIGINALITY PLUS.  THEY HAVE A PERFECT
>DASH PAD FOR ME, BUT WANT $225.00 FOR IT AND I HAVE A HARD TIME PARTING WITH
>THAT SUM OF MONEY.  ANYMORE LEADS WOULD BE APPRECIATED BY YOU OR ANYBODY
>ELSE.  BY THE WAY THE CAR I AM RESTIFING IS A 1972 W30 SADDLE BRONZE COLOR
>WITH SADDLE INTERIOR.             THANKS W MACHINES (MARK PRINCE OF DETROIT
>MI.)

Not mean to be a flame (sorry Sparky) but please don't type in all caps.

As far as the color, rock on!  I have the same color scheme with my '72 
cutlass wagon.

Roger Borlase
http://www.cjnetworks.com/olds/noframesreg/borlase.html

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 01:25:26 -0300
Subject: Re: Exhausting Questions 

In a message dated 96-06-07 13:09:41 EDT, you write:

>     1) Anyone have any experience replacing their catalytic
>          converter and replacing it with a higher flowing design?
>          If so, who was the manufacturer?

Yes, the stock '78 pellet-type converter with a Walker universal-fit
honeycomb 2 1/2" catalytic converter. Performance was a bit better, but the
limiting factor on my car was the cam, so I couldn't really take advantage of
the increased exhaust flow. Performance was marginally better afterwards.

One thing to watch for; while the replacements are straight designs, the
factory cats often have a small bend in them (15 deg. or so). If you are
hooking up the exhaust in the factory location, you may end up with a
misalignment problem. Since the aftermarket cats are shorter than the factory
ones, you can usually make up the difference with a short piece of bent
exhuast tubing as sold by most well-stocked auto parts stores. I picked up
one that worked perfectly on my 403-powered Electra.

------------------------------

From: Bob0Barry@aol.com
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 01:25:48 -0300
Subject: Re: FWD, RWD, left foot braking (long posting)... 

In a message dated 96-06-06 18:56:28 EDT, you write:

> >> If you lose tire patch, you are losing control (traction)..."
>  
>  > If that is so, I don't follow how too much in the front translates into
>  > understeer (push).  It would seem the opposite, too little patch in the
>  > front, that is, loss of front traction (if that's what "patch" means).

This would in fact seem to be the case.

>  I'll give another try at an explanation. When in an understeer, you have
too
>  much contact patch under the front tires.  Irregardless of which way you
turn
>  your steering wheel, the car will go in the same direction.  It's as if
you' re
>  being pushed off the road from behind. The easiest way to experience this
is to
>  slam on the brakes (without the luxury of ABS) and try and turn the
steering
>  wheel.  Please don't get into an accident trying this!
  
I would have to say that actual contact patch is only one factor in this
equation. What you are asking that contact patch to do is equally important.
In a fwd car, the turning and accelerating/braking forces are being applied
through the same patch of rubber, plus accelerating decreases the patch,
while braking increases it. 

So in a turn, neither accelerating nor braking, there is "x" surface area of
tire in contact with the road, exerting "y" amount of force in a particular
direction. With fwd, accelerating increases the force (to >y, both from
forward acceleration and higher cornering speed) while decreasing the surface
area (i.e. contact patch, to <x). Since we're dealing with "soft" friction
(don't post about how surface area doesn't matter for any given cf), the tire
will start to slide, thus understeering. Braking will also increase the
force, but increase the contact patch, allowing less slip, thus *decreasing*
understeer.

A few other notes:

Left foot braking, as Greg K. notes, is going to give you the best control
around a corner in a fwd car in "street" conditions (relatively low speed,
heavy car, 
TH425 auto tranny, etc.). I don't have the theoretical explanation at hand,
but having the power *there* when you back off the brake, rather than having
that lag when you switch from brake to gas (Toros not really designed for
heel-n-toe driving...), can really give you control over the car's line.

One other thing. In *any* corner, a tire will slip. In a slow corner, this is
infinitesimal. In a fast corner, it is more pronounced. The "slip curve" (how
fast you go from little slip to lots-o-slip) depends upon the tire material,
design and construction, and the road surface. What may work in a low-speed
corner with a particular set of tires will not necessarily work in a higher
speed corner with those same tires; another set may have identical
chacteristics, however. This is why nothing can replace getting to know how
your car, whether fwd or rwd, handles under different circumstances, by
practice, practice, practice.

------------------------------

From: "Jason P. Labay" <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 01:34:58 -0300
Subject: Re: MB: CUTLASS DASH HELP!!!!!!!!

If it is any help I have a 1972 Cutlass 'S' dash in black. Last time I
looked it was in excellent shape. Let me know if it would fit...

At 12:46 AM 6/12/96 -0300, WMACHINES@aol.com wrote:
>JIM THANKS FOR THE INFO ABOUT ORIGINALITY PLUS.  THEY HAVE A PERFECT
>DASH PAD FOR ME, BUT WANT $225.00 FOR IT AND I HAVE A HARD TIME PARTING WITH
>THAT SUM OF MONEY.  ANYMORE LEADS WOULD BE APPRECIATED BY YOU OR ANYBODY
>ELSE.  BY THE WAY THE CAR I AM RESTIFING IS A 1972 W30 SADDLE BRONZE COLOR
>WITH SADDLE INTERIOR.             THANKS W MACHINES (MARK PRINCE OF DETROIT
>MI.)
>
>
>


Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio					z28cfi@gwis.com
1988 Camaro IROC-Z/28 5.0 bowtie power			jlabay@phoenix.kent.edu
1975 Hurst/Olds W-25 5.7 rocket power

------------------------------

From: "Jason P. Labay" <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 01:34:58 -0300
Subject: Re: MB: CUTLASS DASH HELP!!!!!!!!

If it is any help I have a 1972 Cutlass 'S' dash in black. Last time I
looked it was in excellent shape. Let me know if it would fit...

At 12:46 AM 6/12/96 -0300, WMACHINES@aol.com wrote:
>JIM THANKS FOR THE INFO ABOUT ORIGINALITY PLUS.  THEY HAVE A PERFECT
>DASH PAD FOR ME, BUT WANT $225.00 FOR IT AND I HAVE A HARD TIME PARTING WITH
>THAT SUM OF MONEY.  ANYMORE LEADS WOULD BE APPRECIATED BY YOU OR ANYBODY
>ELSE.  BY THE WAY THE CAR I AM RESTIFING IS A 1972 W30 SADDLE BRONZE COLOR
>WITH SADDLE INTERIOR.             THANKS W MACHINES (MARK PRINCE OF DETROIT
>MI.)
>
>
>


Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio					z28cfi@gwis.com
1988 Camaro IROC-Z/28 5.0 bowtie power			jlabay@phoenix.kent.edu
1975 Hurst/Olds W-25 5.7 rocket power

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 02:12:22 -0300
Subject: Re: variety o' things 

In a message dated 96-06-11 23:47:17 EDT, you write:

<< Hey, Greg, if you cannot find a new wiring harness, I have one awaiting a
 Purpose In Life... -Chris-
  >>

Thanks Chris!

We will see after the insurance adjuster gets done with it. 

Sparky

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 08:37:19 -0300
Subject: RE: Upper Control Arm Bushings

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Why will it still squeak? Because of the urethane? The originals didn't =
squeak till now (10 years), shouldn't replacements not squeak? If I =
don't want the squeak use rubber, otherwise use urethane?

- ----------
From: 	BobH592058@aol.com[SMTP:BobH592058@aol.com]
Sent: 	Tuesday, June 11, 1996 4:16 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Re: Upper Control Arm Bushings

In a message dated 96-06-11 13:30:18 EDT, you write:

>At 16.47 06,10,96 -0300, you wrote:
>>Should these be replaced if they are obnoxiously noisy but otherwise =
OK? I
>would think that the squeaking is a sign of the rubber deteriorating =
and
>they should be replaced... Any opinions? Thanks, Joanne
>>
>>
>
>replace them with Polyurethane units...it will be alot more solid in =
the
>turns...
>                         zack

But it will still squeek!

Bob Handren  OCA#7728
'67 W-30 Modified
'70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL




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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB5831.FD727880--

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 08:43:56 -0300
Subject: RE: Upper Control Arm Bushings

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Ya, the reason I posted this is because no one would replace them for me =
(last summer) because they were still good. The squeaking goes away in =
the winter and comes back April to November. The heat/humidity makes it =
worse. It's embarrassing. Pedestrians do step out of the way though...:) =
I had them sprayed last year, but I don't remember what was used. Didn't =
work for long (week). I could try the lithium grease though.. I am just =
having a hard time feeling comfortable that a noise like that means =
nothing needs to be replaced...

- ----------
From: 	Toronado66@aol.com[SMTP:Toronado66@aol.com]
Sent: 	Tuesday, June 11, 1996 9:37 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Re: Upper Control Arm Bushings

In a message dated 96-06-11 13:30:18 EDT, you write:

>At 16.47 06,10,96 -0300, you wrote:
>>Should these be replaced if they are obnoxiously noisy but otherwise =
OK? I
>would think that the squeaking is a sign of the rubber deteriorating =
and
>they should be replaced... Any opinions? Thanks, Joanne
>>
>>

Joanne,

I had the same deal with one of my Toros. Wasn't sure at first what it =
was
until I drove in the rain. For the next few days, the car drove squeek =
free!
 Does this happen to you? I just bought some lithium grease in the spray =
can
and nailed every bushing I could find! No more squeaks!  If this helps =
you, I
wouldn't replace the bushings, that is, unless there are rotten and =
falling
to pieces! Then it may be a wise and safe thing to do!

Sparky




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------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 08:47:40 -0300
Subject: RE: FWD, RWD, left foot braking (long posting)...

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I am learning a lot from this thread... for instance, I always thought =
that left foot breaking was for people who were so old, that their =
reflexes weren't fast enough to allow the right foot to go from =
accelerator to brake in a reasonable amount of time...:)

- ----------
From: 	Bob0Barry@aol.com[SMTP:Bob0Barry@aol.com]
Sent: 	Wednesday, June 12, 1996 12:25 AM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Re: FWD, RWD, left foot braking (long posting)...

In a message dated 96-06-06 18:56:28 EDT, you write:

> >> If you lose tire patch, you are losing control (traction)..."
> =20
>  > If that is so, I don't follow how too much in the front translates =
into
>  > understeer (push).  It would seem the opposite, too little patch in =
the
>  > front, that is, loss of front traction (if that's what "patch" =
means).

This would in fact seem to be the case.

>  I'll give another try at an explanation. When in an understeer, you =
have
too
>  much contact patch under the front tires.  Irregardless of which way =
you
turn
>  your steering wheel, the car will go in the same direction.  It's as =
if
you' re
>  being pushed off the road from behind. The easiest way to experience =
this
is to
>  slam on the brakes (without the luxury of ABS) and try and turn the
steering
>  wheel.  Please don't get into an accident trying this!
 =20
I would have to say that actual contact patch is only one factor in this
equation. What you are asking that contact patch to do is equally =
important.
In a fwd car, the turning and accelerating/braking forces are being =
applied
through the same patch of rubber, plus accelerating decreases the patch,
while braking increases it.=20

So in a turn, neither accelerating nor braking, there is "x" surface =
area of
tire in contact with the road, exerting "y" amount of force in a =
particular
direction. With fwd, accelerating increases the force (to >y, both from
forward acceleration and higher cornering speed) while decreasing the =
surface
area (i.e. contact patch, to <x). Since we're dealing with "soft" =
friction
(don't post about how surface area doesn't matter for any given cf), the =
tire
will start to slide, thus understeering. Braking will also increase the
force, but increase the contact patch, allowing less slip, thus =
*decreasing*
understeer.

A few other notes:

Left foot braking, as Greg K. notes, is going to give you the best =
control
around a corner in a fwd car in "street" conditions (relatively low =
speed,
heavy car,=20
TH425 auto tranny, etc.). I don't have the theoretical explanation at =
hand,
but having the power *there* when you back off the brake, rather than =
having
that lag when you switch from brake to gas (Toros not really designed =
for
heel-n-toe driving...), can really give you control over the car's line.

One other thing. In *any* corner, a tire will slip. In a slow corner, =
this is
infinitesimal. In a fast corner, it is more pronounced. The "slip curve" =
(how
fast you go from little slip to lots-o-slip) depends upon the tire =
material,
design and construction, and the road surface. What may work in a =
low-speed
corner with a particular set of tires will not necessarily work in a =
higher
speed corner with those same tires; another set may have identical
chacteristics, however. This is why nothing can replace getting to know =
how
your car, whether fwd or rwd, handles under different circumstances, by
practice, practice, practice.




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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB5833.6F38F240--

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 09:42:27 -0300
Subject: Dash Patch Panels

Frank Boerger (and whomever else it may concern),

   Sorry it took me so long to get the information you needed for your dash
repair on your 68. Here it is:

1. Dash rust replacement article - Classic Auto Restorer magazine April 1995

2. Sherman & Associates Inc (sheet metal) - (810) 774-8297
					fax (810) 774-7361

3. Other sheet metal vendors that may be of help:

	Auto Body Specialties Inc - (203) 346-4989

	Tabco (216) 248-5151
	  fax (216) 248-8979


I have never used any of the above companies so I cannot vouch for how helpful
they will be. The C.A.R. article deals with replacing the rusted out dash of a
442 with one from a junk yard. Good Luck!

PS - Spent last week in Cancun. Stayed in room 445 (missed it by___that much) ;)


 				Pat Clark
    				 69 442
    			        400/TH400
    			      clark@abu.com

     The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.

------------------------------

From: Doug Ahern <doug@cobra.cosmic.uga.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 09:55:47 -0300
Subject: RE: FWD, RWD, left foot braking

> 
> I am learning a lot from this thread... for instance, I always thought =
> that left foot breaking was for people who were so old, that their =
> reflexes weren't fast enough to allow the right foot to go from =
> accelerator to brake in a reasonable amount of time...:)
> 

if you like this thread, try reading Bob Bondurant's book "high Performance
driving".  it was published around '80.  Along with the execellent 
driving instruction, bob also includes a lot of really great stories about
racing F1, can am, etc, etc.   Bob was a very successful racer of corvettes
in the early sixties, then he raced along side Ken Miles for the Shelby
Team.  He also raced can am, trans am, and eventually F1 where he suffered
a terrible accident that took him out of racing.  In the mid 70's he opened 
a racing school, which is considered one of the best...


Doug Ahern      doug@cosmic.uga.edu  1964 F-85 Cutlass 
http://www.cosmic.uga.edu/doug.html  1969 Dart 
Sys Admin, COSMIC, Univ. of Georgia  1974 Satellite ex-cop car

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 09:51:25 -0300
Subject: RE: Looking for Parts 

>    I looked through a JC Whitney catalog and I didn't see a front 
>bumper for a '72 Cutlass.  Is your catalog up to date?  

In JC Whitney/Warshawsky Metro Catalog No. 125B, the bumpers are on
page 83. I've found _rear_ bumper listings for '70 Cutlass, '70 442,
'71-'72 Cutlass and '71-'72 442. In a different box on the same page
are listings for urethane bumper/fascias, both front and rear, for
'81-'86 RWD Cutlasses.

But _front_ '72 bumpers? Nope.  :-(

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #201
********************************

