
oldsmobile-digest          Tuesday, 18 June 1996       Volume 01 : Number 207


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Shawn M. Twomey" <stwom@ctp.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 17:05:58 -0300
Subject: EGR pinging? 

>I'd check the following in no particular order:

>- -- EGR (if stuck closed or disconnected, you can get tons of pinging)

Andy, I thought that EGR heated up the air-fuel to promote better mixing,
ergo better emissions?  How can disconnecting the EGR cause pinging, since
this should only cause colder combustion chamber temps until the motor warms up?

Help.

__________________________________________________________________________
Shawn M. Twomey     |  "No!  Try NOT!  Do, or do not.  There is no try."
stwom@ctp.com       |  -Yoda
__________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

From: "Bruce D. Brumm" <bdbrumm@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:09:32 -0300
Subject: Rocket Powered Ch*vy...

I think you all will enjoy this.  Oldsmobile relevence -- driving a 
Ch*vy will lead one to do all sorts of stupid things!

from somewhere on the internet....
laboriously typed in from a fax.... (OCR where are you!?)
share and enjoy!
- ------------------
You all know about the Darwin Awards -- It's an annual honor given to
the person who did the gene pool the biggest service by killing 
themselves in the most extraordinarily stupid way.  Last year's winner 
was the fellow who was killed by a Coke machine which toppled over on
top of him as he was attempting to tip a free soda out of it.

And this year's Darwin Award nominee is:

The Arizona Highway Patrol came upon a pile of smoldering metal embedded 
into the side of a cliff rising above the road at the apex of a curve.  
The wreckage resembled the site of an airplane crash, but it was a car.  
The type of the car was unidentifiable at the scene.  The lab finally 
figured out what it was and what had happened.

It seems that a guy had somehow gotten hold of a JATO unit (Jet Assisted 
Take Off -- actually a solid fuel rocket) that is used to give heavy 
military transport planes an extra "push" for taking off from short 
airfields.  He had driven his Chevy Impala out into the desert and found 
a long, straight stretch of road.  Then he attached the JATO unit to his 
car, jumped in, got up some speed and fired off the JATO!

The facts as best as could be determined are that the operator of the 
1967 Impala hit JATO ignition at a distance of approximately 3.0 miles 
from the crash site.  This was established by the prominent scorched and 
melted asphalt at that location.  The JATO, if operating properly, would 
have reached maximum thrust within 5 seconds, causing the Chevy to reach 
speeds well in excess of 350 mph and continuing at full power for an 
additional 20-25 seconds.  The driver, soon to be pilot, most likely 
would have experienced G-forces usually reserved for dog-fighting F-15 
jocks under full afterburners, basically causing him to become 
insignificant for the remainder of the event.  However, the automobile 
remained on the straight highway for about 2.5 miles (15-20) seconds 
before the driver applied and completely melted the brakes, blowing the 
tires and leaving thick rubber marks on the road surface, then becoming 
airborne for an additional 1.4 miles and impacting a cliff face at a 
height of 125 feet leaving a blackened crater 3 feet deep into the rock.

Most of the driver's remains were not recoverable; however, small 
fragments of bone, teeth, and hair were extracted from the crated; and 
fingernail and bone shards were removed from the steering wheel.

- -------

Only goes to show...speeding never killed anybody -- stopping did.

- -- 

Bruce D. Brumm (bdbrumm@ix.netcom.com)
Network & Systems Administrator
LDM Technologies, Inc.
Troy, MI

'84 Cutlass Supreme 307-Y
'86 Cutlass Salon 307-Y

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 16:15:05 -0300
Subject: RE: Lower Octane Gasolines 

>The oxygen sensor and EGR are original, good place to start. Thanks...

Speaking from my experience, the oxygen sensor on my '82 was replaced
after, oh, somewhere around 110K, I guess, and seemed to result in less
complaining from the ECM during really _hot_ running (e.g. stuck in
traffic jam on hot day). I got a nice Bosch replacement (even came with
anti-seize goop on the threads pre-applied) for about $21. Access was a
major pain when replacing; having the right sending-unit socket helps a
heckuva lot.

My EGR was always fine but the switching solenoid died on me once (too
much enthusiastic engine washing -- my fault). Easiest way to test is
to see if it moves during mild revving after engine is fully warm. The
ported design such as on the Code-A Buick-built V6 cannot be tested with
a hand pump; you need a constant vacuum draw such as on the idling engine.
Look to see if the actuating shaft moves as you gently rev the warmed-up
engine by tweaking the carb linkage.

If in doubt, try disconnecting and plugging the vacuum line, then driving
gently around the block. If you now hear _colossal_ pinging (even though
the engine may seem a bit zippier), the EGR is probably fine, so hook it
back up again.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Shawn M. Twomey" <stwom@ctp.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 17:25:22 -0300
Subject: Car for Pat 

>I
>would like to have a newer model of cutlass but want to stick with something
>special like the H/O or 442 models. The body style from these years has always
>been a favorite of mine.

Ditto.

>First (and foremost) what is the
>reliability like on these cars?

I have had excellent luck.  I have an '84 Gutlass V6 w/ 150K.  I have less
than $2K into the car (including purchase price), and it looks & runs great.
Also an '85 442, also 150K miles, rock solid since I bought it 10K ago.

>2. Standard engines?

'83/'84 H/Os & '85-'87 442s all share the same powertrain:  Olds 307
(debored 350), 180hp, 245ft-lb.  This is a high-output version of the
standard engine, which made 140hp.  Sorry, actually, the '86-'87s had
redesigned heads, making only 170hp.  Tranny is the 200-R4 overdrive, 2400
stall converter.  Rear-end is 3.73 ratio, posi optional(!) on all cars.

>3. Mpg?

Already covered...

>4. Parts availability

Excellent for general parts, horrible for H/O specific parts & 442 stripe
kits, etc, as mentioned.

>5. Maintainability

Good, esp. if you're good with ECM computers.  Get the shop manual.

>6. T-Tops? worth the hassle?

Available.  Hard to say.  They're fun and all, but they tend to leak water
and/or air (makes lots of noise) and can be a royal pain.  These cars really
weren't designed to have two big holes in the roof, and the body flexes way
too much.

>7. Avg. $ for a daily driver (real nice, not a show car. no rust!)

Depends on where you live.

>8. Scarcity

Should be able to find what you're looking for.

>7. which models were fuel injected?

None.  4-barrel QJet, works pretty well.

>8. Impossible to find parts I should make sure are in good shape

H/O:  front air dam, hood scoop, spoiler, lightning rods.

>9. Trouble areas I should check.

Mentioned before, I'm adding it for emphasis-check out the doors!  Look on
the bottom of the inside of the door for rust along the seam.  If its clean,
the car should be in good shape.  The rallye guage cluster tends to go bad.

>I know that the 442 models were just a cosmetic and suspension upgrade but
they 
>sure look sharp!

Not quite.  The high-output 307, overdrive tranny, and 3.73 gear are part of
the 442 package and could NOT be optioned into other models.

Any other Qs, you know what to do.

__________________________________________________________________________
Shawn M. Twomey     |  "No!  Try NOT!  Do, or do not.  There is no try."
stwom@ctp.com       |  -Yoda
__________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 16:24:01 -0300
Subject: Re: Rocket Powered Ch*vy... 

>I think you all will enjoy this.  Oldsmobile relevence -- driving a 
>Ch*vy will lead one to do all sorts of stupid things!

I believe they later identified the driver as one "Craig Shergold".

:-)  :-)  :-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 16:32:22 -0300
Subject: Re: EGR pinging? 

>Andy, I thought that EGR heated up the air-fuel to promote better mixing,
>ergo better emissions?

Oh boy, this comes up every now and then, and this time _I_ started it...
okay, my unscientific understanding of what it's doing is that it's mixing
some exhaust gases into the intake charge in order to smooth out combustion.
Whether the heat introduced into the intake is how it does it I don't know,
but I think it's more significant that it is introducing some inert gases.

>How can disconnecting the EGR cause pinging, since this should only cause
>colder combustion chamber temps until the motor warms up?

The EGR does not operate until the engine is warm anyway. When the engine
_is_ warm, disconnecting the EGR results in undiluted fuel-air mixture,
somewhat more than designed, and it's a lot more likely to pre-ignite (or
ignite in more than one place in the cylinder, or whatever). I don't know
that I would call it a "rich" mixture, since there isn't necessarily a
different fuel/air ratio with the EGR disconnected; however, there is more
fuel/air charge and less (well, no) exhaust mixed in, so the incoming mix
will go bang in a different way.

>Help.

This is as far as _I'm_ going with this topic.  ;-)  Someone else want to
take over who can explain it a bit better?

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:53:58 -0300
Subject: Re: getting off the bulk mail list

Ron Sauve wrote:
> 
> please tell me how to stop e-mail.  My problem has been solved and I
> really cann't handle 70 to 80 messages every day.  Thanks

Cut the phone line.

OR...

Send subscribe or unsubscribe requests to:

majordomo@ccn.cs.dal.ca

Include one of the following as the only text in the body of the message:

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The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:50:40 -0300
Subject: Re: Starter problems

Daniel R Burk wrote:
> 
> ... then try relocating your starter solenoid to the fender well ...

Is that possible???


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:57:24 -0300
Subject: Re: Rocket Powered Ch*vy...

Gawd, don't let Kalkhoff read this.  
He might get ideas for one of the extra Toros!


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Shawn M. Twomey" <stwom@ctp.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 17:51:27 -0300
Subject: The Lansing show 

Went to the show this Saturday, had fun, got sunburned.  :(

I saw Chris & bothered him for a while, was looking for other 442.com
t-shirts but didn't see any.  Anyway, Chris is funny.  He's walking around,
asking about prices, scribbling in a notebook, handing out flyers, taking
time to explain to some guys why 403 heads on a 350 will kill your CR.  His
brother explains to me that the fight against misinformation is a
never-ending battle.

Lets see, there was a IRL pace car Aurora, pretty sharp, roll cage, chrome
wheels, etc, but still FWD :(  Oh, sorry, thats a plus, right T-guys? ;)

There was a Bravada pick-up conversion, nicely done, with ram air and a
blown 350.

What else...lots of nice rides, too many to mention.

Oh.  I noticed that most of the mid-'80s cars that had engine transplants
went to a fairly large, open-element air cleaner, instead of hooking the
stock dual-snorkel pseudo-ram-air-thing up, and I was wondering which flowed
better?  My inexperienced & uneducated guess is that the open-elements
probably run more air at WOT, but the stock system would have some
advantages with cold starts and things of that nature.  Can someone with
more knowledge correct/confirm/add to this?

__________________________________________________________________________
Shawn M. Twomey     |  "No!  Try NOT!  Do, or do not.  There is no try."
stwom@ctp.com       |  -Yoda
__________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 17:01:36 -0300
Subject: Re: Starter problems 

>> ... then try relocating your starter solenoid to the fender well ...
>
>Is that possible???

Uh, I was wondering that, too. I thought the GM design of solenoid that
sits piggyback on the starter also contains linkage for engaging the
pinion to the flywheel (Bendix drive?)...

While you can replace the solenoid without replacing the starter, I'd
replace them both after going to all the aggravation involved to get
under there and mess around with it all...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Shawn M. Twomey" <stwom@ctp.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 18:08:21 -0300
Subject: Computer + no EGR? 

As some of you know, I'm in the process of building a 350 for my '85 442,
and I would like to be able to run the computer in more or less stock form.

I had planned on getting an Edelbrock Performer 350 intake, but I found and
bought the intake that they sold before they started making the Performer,
the OL6E or something like that.  Anyway, the old one supposedly has better
performance characteristics, the major difference being that it has no EGR
provisions.  A few questions:

1)  Anyone have experience with this manifold?  Anyone happen to use it
specifically on the application that I'm doing?  No?  Didn't think so.

2)  My dad thinks that the computer probably depends on the EGR.  No EGR =
no computer.  Is this true?

3)  If so, is all this logic built into the PROM?  I plan on having a PROM
made, is it conceivable that one could be programmed to control the stock
QJet and everything else with no EGR valve?

4)  If so, will emissions laws (in Michigan) allow such a thing?  Could it
be done on an "off-road only" car?

5)  I need contact information for Hypertech and any other chip-makers out
there.  Does anyone have ph.#s?

Thank you thank you thank you.

__________________________________________________________________________
Shawn M. Twomey     |  "No!  Try NOT!  Do, or do not.  There is no try."
stwom@ctp.com       |  -Yoda
__________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 19:00:40 -0300
Subject: Re: Lower Octane Gasolines 

In a message dated 96-06-17 14:48:47 EDT, you write:

<< But... water doesn't compress. At all. IMHO, if you manage to hydro-lock
 the engine, haven't you already bent the rods, etc.? Seems to me that
 getting hydro-locked is like being a little bit pregnant, or slightly
dead... >>


Welll, I suppose you could but pouring it in slowly it won't.  You'd have to
get a pretty big bunch of water in there - like someone [:-)]driving a Jeep
through the water so fast it flowed into the air intake system.  Engine was
doing at least 3000 rpm - sure locked it up _quick_!  Didn't break anything
then but it sure was fun to start in 3 feet of water (not!).

And that was a Ch*vy engine, crummy V-6 to boot. The Jeep was an '86 Cherokee
before they got their 4.0L inline 6 into production - a _much_ better engine.

I don't think any harm is likely, the water to remove carbon is an old, old
trick.  The next time you need to clean some pistons, soak 'em overnight in a
bucket of water.

Works for me.

Bob Handren   OCA #7728
'67 W-30 Modified
'70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 19:00:59 -0300
Subject: Re: Starter problems 

In a message dated 96-06-17 16:59:52 EDT, you write:

<<  ... then try relocating your starter solenoid to the fender well ...
 
 Is that possible???
 
 
 The 66 Toro and Mi >>


  Sure is!  For the first class setup contact MAD Enterprises in CA, for the
cheapy approach try a Summitt kit.  You can even relocate the whole magilla
to the trunk - that cool enough for ya?  (The solenoid that is.)

Since the '67 W-30 came with the battery in the trunk I've always had
occasional problems with starting.  Probably from heat soak although that 16
foot cable can't help.  I've had the MAD conversion about 18 months now and
it works great.  Allows me to sleep at night now that I don't have visions of
that single "0" welding cable running 16 feet from battery to starter
developing a short and torching my car, house and us!

The kits include a shorting metal strip from the solenoid or "S" connection
on the solenoid to the large battery cable connection.  There is no "I"
connection.  The large gauge battery cable is only hot when starting.  The
rest of the time it has no current (whew).  Everything else is handled with a
feed line and fusible link.

I recommend the MAD product.  It's first class, something I try apply to all
my electrical work on the car.  Shorts are not fun, as I once learned as
youngster when my trunk solenoid (as in "shaved" locks of the 50's) shorted,
at 50 mph, and yo-yo hadn't learned about the usefulness of fuses.

Sure knew about them after that.  Suffered a few minor burns to the fingers
ripping the wires out - like I said - a 50 mph on a highway with no pull-off.

Hey Sparky.  My '56 88 stopped smelling about the time I got my first 442 -
1965. :-)

Bob Handren OCA #7728
'67 W-30 Modified
'70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

------------------------------

From: "Robert R. Neumann" <75213.656@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 19:42:05 -0300
Subject: Wierd ignition problem

OK, first of all, this isn't an Oldsmobile problem, but help is needed anyway.
The family ski boat  ('88 Mastercraft w/ 351) was running a little rough.
Instead of taking to mechanic for complete tune up, dad and I decided to replace
points, condenser, rotor and cap of ignition system.  I found mostly identical
parts and the change over went without a hitch, but upon firing it up it cranks,
but there are no sparks.  The condenser appeared slightly different from
original, so we changed it and later the rotor with no luck.  All appears to be
in order...I'm not sure how such a simple task went wrong.  I'm 99% positive all
wiring, etc. is how it was before.  Is there something we've overlooked?  

- -Aaron

------------------------------

From: Toronado66@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 19:53:14 -0300
Subject: Re: Starter problems 

In a message dated 96-06-17 18:08:03 EDT, Bob writes:

<< Shorts are not fun >>

Bob,

Thats the understatement of the year!

>Hey Sparky.  My '56 88 stopped smelling about the time I got my first 442 -
>1965. :-)

I'm hoping much of the smell will go away when all the burned wiring is
changed out. Otherwize I'll have to get those Big Crown deodorizors and stick
them all over to cover up the odor!  (:   

Sparky

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:14:14 -0300
Subject: Re: Rocket Powered Ch*vy...

I saw that article in Car Craft the other month and I have to say I'm 
surprised that longtime urban myth actually made it into a national 
magazine...this story has been around quite a while in various forms, I 
wonder if there is any truth at all to it?

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
 revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
 information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
 Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
 been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:39:03 -0300
Subject: Re: Wierd ignition problem 

In a message dated 96-06-17 18:58:06 EDT, you write:

<< Instead of taking to mechanic for complete tune up, dad and I decided to
replace
 points, condenser, rotor and cap of ignition system. >>

Having just worked on my 4kW RV generator I've got a suggestion or two.

First, check you are getting voltage to the ignition system.  If that's OK
next connect a VOM to measure volts between the points side of the
distributor and a ground.  Crank the engine, if the volt meter does not cycle
on and off as the engine cranks and the points open and close look for a
ground someplace. If it does cycle, next check coil for a short.

Can't tell you how many times something has broken to cause a ground when
doing major surgery on the ignition.  The insulation on those old wires
cracks.  A dwell meter is fancier and probably better but try the VOM.

Mine was grounded because the oil level safety switch (the same as an idiot
light sender) wasn't opening because of no oil pressure (because of low oil -
what shut it off in the first place.)

That'll get you started. I'm sure there will be lots more guidance.

On an Olds or any other related thread - I have now, in my short lifetime,
had oil pressure sending units that have leaked enough to cause, in one case,
a major fire that almost cost me the RV and my life and another that
fortunately was a safety switch and saved my generator.

I don't mean oozing, I mean like a shower head!  On the RV the spray hit the
engine cover and very nicely flowed the oil across the top of the cover and
right onto the exhaust manifold.  Driving down the road I see smoke on the
passenger side, look on my side, see much more of it too!  Holy S---!
 Luckily I was on the PA turnpike - lots of turnoff space. Threw the wife
out, threw the engine cover out, emptied an extinguisher to put it out.
 Found out starters do not like fire extinguishers powder.  Died a month or
so after the episode.

Replaced the oil unit with a 1/8" pipe plug off the intake of the '67 which
was on a trailer. Replaced it with the defective oil pressure sending unit
and actually forgot about it for months.    Finally replaced it when I got a
question from someone about what the thing was doing on the back of my
Torker.  Speed secret of course!

They are now in my category of routine replacement.

Bob

------------------------------

From: "Jason P. Labay" <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:59:55 -0300
Subject: Re: Computer + no EGR? 

>2)  My dad thinks that the computer probably depends on the EGR.  No EGR =
>no computer.  Is this true?

Well, the EGR on my 82 Z/28 with fuel injection has been unhooked and
blocked off with no complaints from my ECM. Don't know if carb would make a
difference?


>4)  If so, will emissions laws (in Michigan) allow such a thing?  Could it
>be done on an "off-road only" car?

My car passed the IM240 test here in Ohio. Only a tailpipe test and check
for cat convertor. If the EPA could see under my hood, I would be locked up
for life, all emissions equipment has been removed...yet still passed way
under legal limits.

>
>5)  I need contact information for Hypertech and any other chip-makers out
>there.  Does anyone have ph.#s?

Hypertech, ADS and JET will custom burn chips to your specs, check locally
as some local performance shops may do it also.
>
>Thank you thank you thank you.

Your welcome...from the guy that drives a Ch*vy, while restoring the Olds





Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio					z28cfi@gwis.com
1988 Camaro IROC-Z/28 5.0 bowtie power			jlabay@phoenix.kent.edu
1975 Hurst/Olds W-25 5.7 rocket power
H/OCA member #0278A

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:15:41 -0300
Subject: Re: Rocket Powered Ch*vy...

Paul R. K. Kuromoto wrote:
> 
> I saw that article in Car Craft the other month and I have to say I'm
> surprised that longtime urban myth actually made it into a national
> magazine...this story has been around quite a while in various forms, I
> wonder if there is any truth at all to it?

It HAS been around a while but I don't believe it's a myth.  I first read 
about it in the local paper almost 2 years ago.  (Not that you can 
believe everything you read).


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:17:48 -0300
Subject: Re: Wierd ignition problem

Robert R. Neumann wrote:
> 
> OK, first of all, this isn't an Oldsmobile problem, but help is needed 
> anyway. The family ski boat...

Hey, it's cool.  You tow it with an Oldsmobile, right?


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:34:14 -0300
Subject: Re: Starter problems

BobH592058@aol.com wrote:
>  
> ... then try relocating your starter solenoid to the fender well...
> 
>  Is that possible???

> Sure is!

Got a couple a question here, Bob.

> Since the '67 W-30 came with the battery in the trunk I've always had
> occasional problems with starting.  Probably from heat soak although 
> that 16 foot cable can't help.  

First problem.  In 30 years in electronics, I have never heard an 
engineer or technician refer to "heat soak" as a reason for a soleniod or 
motor fail to operate.  So exactly what are we talking about here?

> Allows me to sleep at night now that I don't have visions of
> that single "0" welding cable running 16 feet from battery to starter
> developing a short and torching my car, house and us!

I can appreciate the added security not having that wire hot but I would 
seem to me that you've just traded one hot wire for another.  You still 
must have power to the front.

There are two type of starters: the positive engagement starter and the 
solenoid actuated starter.  In a solenoid actuated starter the solenoid 
does two things:

1) It forces the starter drive gear into contact with the flywheel teeth. 
2) It closes a set of contacts to supply power to the starter armature.  

Short (no pun intended) of replacing the solenoid actuated type with a 
positive engagement type, there is no way you can remote the solenoid.  
Doing so would also remove the drive-to-flywheel and the starter would 
turn it's little wires off but the motor would never turn.

> The kits include a shorting metal strip from the solenoid or "S" 
> connection on the solenoid to the large battery cable connection.  
> There is no "I" connection.

So it appears that you have simply tied the two terminals together so 
that applying power energizes the solenoid and, through the solenoid 
contacts, the starter armature.  Can't see where this has changed "heat 
soak" or anything else electricly.  The solenoid is still where it was 
and is still doing exactly what it did before.

Enlighten me!


The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:34:14 -0300
Subject: Re: Starter problems

BobH592058@aol.com wrote:
>  
> ... then try relocating your starter solenoid to the fender well...
> 
>  Is that possible???

> Sure is!

Got a couple a question here, Bob.

> Since the '67 W-30 came with the battery in the trunk I've always had
> occasional problems with starting.  Probably from heat soak although 
> that 16 foot cable can't help.  

First problem.  In 30 years in electronics, I have never heard an 
engineer or technician refer to "heat soak" as a reason for a soleniod or 
motor fail to operate.  So exactly what are we talking about here?

> Allows me to sleep at night now that I don't have visions of
> that single "0" welding cable running 16 feet from battery to starter
> developing a short and torching my car, house and us!

I can appreciate the added security not having that wire hot but I would 
seem to me that you've just traded one hot wire for another.  You still 
must have power to the front.

There are two type of starters: the positive engagement starter and the 
solenoid actuated starter.  In a solenoid actuated starter the solenoid 
does two things:

1) It forces the starter drive gear into contact with the flywheel teeth. 
2) It closes a set of contacts to supply power to the starter armature.  

Short (no pun intended) of replacing the solenoid actuated type with a 
positive engagement type, there is no way you can remote the solenoid.  
Doing so would also remove the drive-to-flywheel and the starter would 
turn it's little wires off but the motor would never turn.

> The kits include a shorting metal strip from the solenoid or "S" 
> connection on the solenoid to the large battery cable connection.  
> There is no "I" connection.

So it appears that you have simply tied the two terminals together so 
that applying power energizes the solenoid and, through the solenoid 
contacts, the starter armature.  Can't see where this has changed "heat 
soak" or anything else electricly.  The solenoid is still where it was 
and is still doing exactly what it did before.

Enlighten me!


The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Andrew Chan <yu135008@yorku.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 22:55:39 -0300
Subject: Re: EGR

> Andy, I thought that EGR heated up the air-fuel to promote better mixing,
> ergo better emissions?  How can disconnecting the EGR cause pinging, since
> this should only cause colder combustion chamber temps until the motor
> warms up?

After complete combustion, the exhaust gas is very low in oxygen.  This
'inert' gas is carefully metered during part throttle engine operation to
help reduce peak combustion temperatures.  In the combustion chamber, when
temperatures exceed 2500 F, the formation of oxides of nitrogen increases
markedly.  Andrew has already correctly mentioned that EGR only operates
when the engine is warm.  There is either a TVS or ECM controlled solenoid
to ensure this.  EGR flow on a cold engine causes driveability problems
like hesitation or stalling, since the A/F requirement of the engine is
more critical at this time.  I believe the main reason disconnecting
the EGR causes pinging is because the introduction of spent gases reduces
the speed of combustion.  The factory settings take this into account and
the spark is advanced more than it would be for no EGR flow.  With an
oxygen sensor, the mixture should always be close to stoichiometric
during conditions where EGR would normally be active.  Any other ideas?

> 2)  My dad thinks that the computer probably depends on the EGR.  No EGR
> no computer.  Is this true?
> 3)  If so, is all this logic built into the PROM?  I plan on having a
> PROM made, is it conceivable that one could be programmed to control the
> stock QJet and everything else with no EGR valve?

I'd imagine that the PROM contains lookup tables that would help tailor the
ignition timing for engine rpm, MAP sensor reading, TPS signal, and
coolant temperature.  This spark table probably also takes EGR usage into 
account.  There is no way for the computer to tell if the EGR is connected
or not in these cars.  However, on some newer cars, there must be at least
a 1.3 kpa change in MAP when EGR is commanded, so the computer will know
if there is a malfunction.  Since the distributor is adjustable, it may be
the case that a couple degrees of retard may be enough to prevent
detonation in your no EGR application, although this would not provide an 
optimal spark curve.  BTW, EGR doesn't affect WOT performance; it may be a
good idea to keep it for the emissions laws.  

> 5)  I need contact information for Hypertech and any other chip-makers
> out there.  Does anyone have ph.#s?

Let us know what they say about custom PROMs and high performance
Olds engines!
 
Hypertech      1-800-762-3504

Superchips programming Dealer:
               Ed Wright Automotive  (918-446-3019)

Z-industries dealer:
               Evergreen Performance (602-443-3333)

Kevin Wong

------------------------------

From: RbtNeumann@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 23:41:32 -0300
Subject: Weird ignit. prob. solved 

Once again, I've managed to make a fool of myself...silly me, we never spaced
the gap between the points.  That was the problem, but of course we nearly
ripped apart the whole electrical system before we figured it out...

- -Aaron

------------------------------

From: "Brian Lorway" <blorway@rust.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 01:46:02 -0300
Subject: Re: Lower Octane Gasolines

I used something called "Top End Cleaner" available from GM dealer parts
dept. This product "disolves" the carbon build up. I always was afraid of
using water for fear of breaking a "chunk" of carbon lose and having it go
somewhere it wasn't supposed to... Like between a valve and it's seat.

- ----------
> << But... water doesn't compress. At all. IMHO, if you manage to
hydro-lock
>  the engine, haven't you already bent the rods, etc.? Seems to me that
>  getting hydro-locked is like being a little bit pregnant, or slightly
> dead... >>
> 
> 
> Welll, I suppose you could but pouring it in slowly it won't.  You'd
have to
> get a pretty big bunch of water in there - like someone [:-)]driving a
Jeep
> through the water so fast it flowed into the air intake system.  Engine
was
> doing at least 3000 rpm - sure locked it up _quick_!  Didn't break
anything
> then but it sure was fun to start in 3 feet of water (not!).
> 
> And that was a Ch*vy engine, crummy V-6 to boot. The Jeep was an '86
Cherokee
> before they got their 4.0L inline 6 into production - a _much_ better
engine.
> 
> I don't think any harm is likely, the water to remove carbon is an old,
old
> trick.  The next time you need to clean some pistons, soak 'em overnight
in a
> bucket of water.
> 
> Works for me.
> 
> Bob Handren   OCA #7728
> '67 W-30 Modified
> '70 SX Convertible
> Oviedo, FL

------------------------------

From: Bob Valentine <ravalent@liii.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 03:25:03 -0300
Subject: Re: Wierd ignition problem

On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Robert R. Neumann wrote:

> OK, first of all, this isn't an Oldsmobile problem, but help is needed anyway.

    Ok, fix the Ford, then put a 455 Olds in the boat.  

> The family ski boat  ('88 Mastercraft w/ 351) was running a little rough.
> Instead of taking to mechanic for complete tune up, dad and I decided to
> replace points, condenser, rotor and cap of ignition system.  

    That's what I love about boats; a 1988 with *POINTS*.   Jeeze...

> parts and the change over went without a hitch, but upon firing it up it 
> cranks, but there are no sparks.  The condenser appeared slightly 
> different from original, so we changed it and later the rotor with no 

> I'm not sure how such a simple task went wrong.  

    Ahhh, that's why I hate points.  Such a simple concept, but such a 
pain to get right.   Of course, the mix of a Ford *AND* points is even 
worse.  ;^)  Chances are that the points are either adjusted wrong, or 
the wire from the points to the coil is open/shorted.   According to my 
MerCruiser book, the point gap should be .017, and the dwell should be 
set to 26-31 degrees.   .017 is about the thickness of a matchbook cover; 
it should at least get the motor to run.

   For repetition, points adjusting procedure:

   1.  Crank/turn engine until the points are on a high point of the
       rubbing block. (open position)  
   2.  Loosen adjusting screw that holds the points down.
   3.  Hold open the points, insert feeler guage / matchbook cover between 
       the contacts.
   4.  Tighten adjusting screw.
   5.  Remove feeler/paper, check for spark.

   Are you *SURE* you have a conventional points system, or are the 
points being used to trigger a electronic ignition?  If it's the latter, 
you should *NOT* have a condenser in there.
      
> Is there something we've overlooked?  

    Yep.  Rip out the points and drop in a OEM or aftermarket electronic 
igniton system.    You'll NEVER have this problem again.   It's usually 
my first mod to any internal combustion engine with points.

                     -->   Bob Valentine  <--  
                    --> ravalent@liii.com  <--
        "Experience varies directly with equipment ruined"

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:38:17 -0300
Subject: Re: Wierd ignition problem

> in order...I'm not sure how such a simple task went wrong.  I'm 99% positive all
> wiring, etc. is how it was before.  Is there something we've overlooked?  
> 
> -Aaron
> 
> 
> 

Is it plugged in? Sorry hadda ask!


 				Pat Clark
    				 69 442
    			        400/TH400
    			  clark@abu.dseg.ti.com

     The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:44:44 -0300
Subject: Re: Rocket Powered Ch*vy...

> 
> I believe they later identified the driver as one "Craig Shergold".
> 
> :-)  :-)  :-)
> 
> Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
> Datalogics, Inc.
> 441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
> Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473
> 
> 
> 

We mail the buisness cards to Datalogics, Right? ;-)


 				Pat Clark
    				 69 442
    			        400/TH400
    			  clark@abu.dseg.ti.com

     The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.

------------------------------

From: Lucas Frick <frick@macrochip.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:00:13 -0300
Subject: Re: Starter Problems

>I can appreciate the added security not having that wire hot but I =
would=20
>seem to me that you've just traded one hot wire for another.  You still =

>must have power to the front.

I believe you still need a hot wire from the alternator to charge the =
battery and the rest of the components.  I also have a trunk mounted =
battery.  After I installed the cable the first time it fell onto the =
exhaust pipe and quickly burned through.  I was driving along and =
noticed that the engine and radio cut off for a second, then BANG.  I =
coasted to a stop to notice the positive terminal was blown off the =
battery completely melting the lead thing you attach to the wire.  I =
spent the next night running the new cable through the frame.  There is =
a nice little hole in the frame by the engine that lets you run the =
cable all the way up to the starter.  I used heater hose to insulate the =
cable in the two places where it could possibly wear through. I guess I =
have a "hot rod" now.

Luke 71 442 4-speed

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:16:58 -0300
Subject: Re: Starter Problems

Lucas Frick wrote:
> 
> I believe you still need a hot wire from the alternator to charge the 
> battery ...

Good point.  Your still gonna have a hot wire to the battery while 
running: no wire, no charge.


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:20:59 -0300
Subject: Re: Rocket Powered Ch*vy (and a new topic) 

>> I believe they later identified the driver as one "Craig Shergold".
>> 
>We mail the business cards to Datalogics, Right? ;-)

Care of the Choking Doberman Department, yes.  :-)  Somebody might want
to dig up the Urban Legends FAQ from misc.folklore.urban; I'm sure it's
in there somewhere.

Oh, heck, never mind, I figured I might as well go all the way and did
it myself just now. The Urban Legends FAQ lists this particular story as
"Unanswered and may be unanswerable", apparently due to either too many
contradictory sources cited in the various versions, or not enough sources
at all. Anyway, you can check out http:/www.urbanlegends.com/afu.faq and 
follow the link for "Wild Life in the Fast Lane."

There _is_ an adjacent item which _is_ labeled as True, about a guy in
Los Alamos, NM who put a jet engine in a Honda Civic and ran it on the
salt flats.

So as to not completely waste the bandwidth here: If you didn't see
Episode 2 of "America On Wheels" last night on PBS, you need to find
out when it's going to be rebroadcast and rearrange your schedule.

It's a 3-part series and this episode covered the postwar years. It's
_loaded_ with archival films, and of all the old TV ads shown, Olds
must have had the most and _certainly_ some of the looniest. There's
one priceless ad from around 1954 where the housewife slides behind
the wheel and, if I remember this right (I was laughing too hard), with
her eyes bugging out and a simply ludicrous voice requiring at _least_ 
three exclamation points to quote accurately, "I can't be-LIEVE all 
this power!!!"

Episode 3 will bring the history of the car from around the '60's up
to the present day. I'm pretty sure it will be broadcast on PBS next
Monday from 9:00-10:00 pm EST. Look it up to be sure.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Paul Bartlett <bartletp@osshe.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:32:42 -0300
Subject: Toronado Electric Windows Now Work

You'll never believe this but the electric windows and power seat are now
working on the 1966 Toronado!  Thank you everyone for all your help and
advice.

The problem was the relay behind the left kick panel under the dash.  One
of the parts inside the relay was touching the metal case of the relay
which when attached to the body of the car was causing a major short. 
Thankfully Oldsmobile put a circuit breaker in before the relay so at
least the wiring didn't melt.

I had no luck finding a new relay -- they stopped making them in 1980.  So
I had to repair the old relay.  I put electric tape on the inside of the
metal case of the relay to stop the short.  I also soldered one end of the
thin wire (that goes around the drum in the relay) to the metal case of
the relay. 

Now the car is back together and everything is working.  

MY NEXT PROJECT IS TO GET A NEW SPRING FOR THE HINGE OF THE DRIVER'S SIDE
DOOR.  THE DOOR IS SO HEAVY THAT I AM CONCERNED ABOUT IT FALLING AGAINST
MY LEG.   I BOUGHT A SPRING AT THE AUTO-PARTS STORE BUT IT DID NOT HAVE
SUFFICIENT TENSION TO WORK PROPERLY.  DOES ANYONE KNOW IS THIS IS A
SPECIAL SPRING AND WHERE COULD I BUY ONE?

Thanks again, 
   

Paul Bartlett
E-mail bartletp@osshe.edu

------------------------------

From: allen@consensys.com
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:42:05 -0300
Subject: [none]

unsubscribe oldsmobile allen@consensys.com

------------------------------

From: Bill Gochenour <billg@sjuvm.stjohns.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:34:12 -0300
Subject: Re: 83,84 H/O 85-87 442

Pat Clark 952-3776 wrote:
> 
>         Have finally come to the startling conclusion that I do not want to use
> my 69 442 as my primary mode of transportation (11 mpg of premium and all). I
> would like to have a newer model of cutlass but want to stick with something
> special like the H/O or 442 models. The body style from these years has always
> been a favorite of mine. I need some information from you guys that own these
> model cars ( and I know you are out there!) First (and foremost) what is the
> reliability like on these cars? Being from the dreaded mid-eighties I wouldn't
> think that it would be all that great. And:
> 
> 2. Standard engines?
> 3. Mpg?
> 4. Parts availability
> 5. Maintainability
> 6. T-Tops? worth the hassle?
> 7. Avg. $ for a daily driver (real nice, not a show car. no rust!)
> 8. Scarcity
> 7. which models were fuel injected?
> 8. Impossible to find parts I should make sure are in good shape
> 9. Trouble areas I should check.
> 
> I know that the 442 models were just a cosmetic and suspension upgrade but they
> sure look sharp! Thanks for the info guys!
> 
>                                 Pat Clark
>                                  69 442
>                                 400/TH400
>                           clark@abu.dseg.ti.com
> 
>      The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.


For an every day car you don't want a 83-84 H/O. Don't get me wrong, 
Super car but it has STEAL ME written all over it. The 86 442 on the 
other hand still has the same great style & performance but its not as 
flashy. T-Tops are a no-no for a daily driving (leaks/rattles/THEFT). 
Parts for the H/O are a horror show to find, and thier expensive when you 
do! Like with any car maintenance is maintenance, you either going do it 
or you not. So far I did nothing major to report on either vehicle.
	Maybe these are not the toughest muscle cars from the past but, 
they sure look more unique and stand out better than any Monte 
SS/I-ROC/and yes the Mustang that I've seen. The most important thing, 
look around, there not on every street corner, that alone makes them 
says something !
- -- 
Bill !                                        _           _       ___
                                            /  |        /  |    /  _  \
83 Hurst/Olds 15th Aniversary Edition     /    |      /    |   |_|   | |
86 442 The Perfect "10"                 /  / | |_   /  / | |_      /  /
                                       |_____   _| |_____   _|   /  /__
                                             |_|         |_|   |_______|


View the 442? http://yogi-bear.stjohns.edu/~johnny/442.gif

------------------------------

From: allen@consensys.com
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:40:15 -0300
Subject: [none]

unsubscribe oldsmobile-digest allen@consensys.com

------------------------------

From: allen@consensys.com
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:42:25 -0300
Subject: [none]

subscribe oldsmobile-digest

------------------------------

From: Bill Gochenour <billg@sjuvm.stjohns.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:38:38 -0300
Subject: ReplyFor an every day car you don't want a 83-84 H/O. Don't get me wrong,

For an every day car you don't want a 83-84 H/O. Don't get me wrong,
Super car but it has STEAL ME written all over it. The 86 442 on the
other hand still has the same great style & performance but its not as
flashy. T-Tops are a no-no for a daily driving (leaks/rattles/THEFT).
Parts for the H/O are a horror show to find, and thier expensive when you
do! Like with any car maintenance is maintenance, you either going do it
or you not. So far I did nothing major to report on either vehicle.
        Maybe these are not the toughest muscle cars from the past but,
they sure look more unique and stand out better than any Monte
SS/I-ROC/and yes the Mustang that I've seen. The most important thing,
look around, there not on every street corner, that alone makes them
says something !
- --
Bill !                                        _           _       ___
                                            /  |        /  |    /  _  \
83 Hurst/Olds 15th Aniversary Edition     /    |      /    |   |_|   | |
86 442 The Perfect "10"                 /  / | |_   /  / | |_      /  /
                                       |_____   _| |_____   _|   /  /__
                                             |_|         |_|   |_______|


View the 442? http://yogi-bear.stjohns.edu/~johnny/442.gif

- -- 
Bill !                                        _           _       ___
                                            /  |        /  |    /  _  \
83 Hurst/Olds 15th Aniversary Edition     /    |      /    |   |_|   | |
86 442 The Perfect "10"                 /  / | |_   /  / | |_      /  /
                                       |_____   _| |_____   _|   /  /__
                                             |_|         |_|   |_______|

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:48:23 -0300
Subject: Re: 83,84 H/O 85-87 442 

>For an every day car you don't want a 83-84 H/O. Don't get me wrong, 
>Super car but it has STEAL ME written all over it.

Agreed; you want some sort of security system in there. And as a
daily driver, I think you'll wind up with rust-through in the doors
and rear quarters before too long. IOW, if you're going to all the
trouble of finding a rust-free model to begin with, treating it as
a daily driver, even with the best care, seems a little anti-climactic...

>The 86 442 on the 
>other hand still has the same great style & performance but its not as 
>flashy. T-Tops are a no-no for a daily driving (leaks/rattles/THEFT). 

Well, mine had a set of those clamshell ACE locks that enclose the T-top
latch; they seemed pretty secure. To fix rattles in mine, I stuck a layer
of thin packing foam inside the plastic trim panel.

>	Maybe these are not the toughest muscle cars from the past but, 
>they sure look more unique and stand out better than any Monte 
>SS/I-ROC/and yes the Mustang that I've seen.

Ever notice how the Monte Carlo SSs on the street seem to look awfully
beat up for their age?

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 05:44:41 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Starter Problems 

     You could probably use fusible link wire for that one, couldn't you?  
     That'd eliminate a lot of worries!
     
     What about using a circuit breaker in this wire?  I've never heard of 
     anyone using circuit breakers in a car, but I don't see why it 
     wouldn't work.
     
     Tom.

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Starter Problems
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    6/18/96 7:44 AM


Lucas Frick wrote:
> 
> I believe you still need a hot wire from the alternator to charge the 
> battery ...
     
Good point.  Your still gonna have a hot wire to the battery while 
running: no wire, no charge.

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:21:33 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Starter Problems

Tom Lentz wrote:
> 
> What about using a circuit breaker in this wire?  I've never heard of
> anyone using circuit breakers in a car, but I don't see why it
> wouldn't work.

No reason at all.  If you can't find an appropiate car part, try a marine 
supplier.  They've got tons of 12V stuff.


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:27:05 -0300
Subject: Re: Toronado Electric Windows Now Work

Paul Bartlett wrote:
> 
> I had no luck finding a new relay -- they stopped making them in 1980. 
> So I had to repair the old relay.  

Glad you got it straightened out.  

BTW, a relay is a relay is a relay.  Other than maybe mounting problems, 
the physical characteristics don't mean squat.  If you can find one with 
the same electrical charactistics and contacts, you should be able to 
replace it with one from Radio Shack or somewhere.  If anybody can give 
me a good description and/or a GIF of the relay, I'll research it.


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:20:39 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Starter Problems 

>     What about using a circuit breaker in this wire?  I've never heard 
>     of anyone using circuit breakers in a car, but I don't see why it 
>     wouldn't work.

Sure they do. You have one in your headlight switch and your wiper motor,
among other places. They're often used for power window circuits, too;
they're little rectangular canisters plugged into the fusebox.

I used one when I added driving lights to my Austin America (!). Ran a
12-gauge wire from the battery to a big fat rocker switch, to which I'd
attached a 30-amp circuit breaker -- bought it all from an off-road
supply house. Everything worked fine right up until the day I went to
remove it. I pulled the switch forward out of its metal frame in the
process of removing it, and it got stuck sideways right about the time
that the circuit breaker terminals both wedged against the back of the
_metal_ dashboard.  :-(

So at that instant the 6-foot length of 12-gauge wire running back to
the battery became the world's longest toaster wire, and started melting
its own insulation on the way to a total Austin flambe' as soon as it 
managed to burn its way through to whatever else it could find. Smoke 
started pouring out from both behind the dash _and_ under the hood at 
the same time as I frantically pried on the switch with whatever I could
grab at the time. Finally gave up on pulling it, grabbed something heavy 
and slammed the switch back into the dash again. Managed to break the 
circuit before flames appeared.  :-}  When I got the supply wire out at 
last, after disconnecting the battery (a great idea, and one which I 
recommend  :-), it was fried along its entire length and the insulation 
was falling off.

Made a mental note to remove items in reverse order of assembly in future.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:26:35 -0300
Subject: Re: Toronado Electric Windows Now Work 

>BTW, a relay is a relay is a relay.  Other than maybe mounting problems, 
>the physical characteristics don't mean squat.  If you can find one with 
>the same electrical charactistics and contacts, you should be able to 
>replace it with one from Radio Shack or somewhere.

Second that. One of those used for fog and driving lights, sold in 
discount stores, would probably be good enough, although for slightly
better quality control you might try a high-speed blower relay, the
thing mounted near the blower motor under the hood. They're a dime a
dozen. The fourth contact (either of the middle two) will need to go
to ground since I don't think the casing is grounded (probably as it
normally installs on the ungroundable fiberglass evaporator housing),
but otherwise it should work.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: SG Hartfelder <shartfel@planet.eol.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:40:56 -0300
Subject: Door Handle Slippage

Question.

I wanted to replace the door handles on my car and 
when I removed the handles, I noticed that the grip 
(gears) on the door have been stripped.  Ive 
purchased nice new door handles for the car but 
cant put them on because the handles just turn 
without grabbing the door mechanism.

Remember, the car is 58 years old and its kinda 
tough to find the replacement part for the door.

Any Band-Aid ideas out there while I search for a 
replacement?

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:38:44 -0300
Subject: Re: 83,84 H/O 85-87 442

> Agreed; you want some sort of security system in there. And as a
> daily driver, I think you'll wind up with rust-through in the doors
> and rear quarters before too long. IOW, if you're going to all the
> trouble of finding a rust-free model to begin with, treating it as
> a daily driver, even with the best care, seems a little anti-climactic...

I don't worry too much about rust, I live in Texas. Usually don't see very many 
cars that are all rusted up down here (except the ones you yankees drive down!)
;-) I remember my first trip to Minn. and being astounded by the rust floretts
blooming on the sides of many cars.

> Ever notice how the Monte Carlo SSs on the street seem to look awfully
> beat up for their age?
> 
> Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
> Datalogics, Inc.
> 441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
> Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473
> 
> 
> 

I think the relatively higher price and lower performance placed most of the mid
80's 442 into the hands of more caring and mature owners. The montes have all of
those extra airdams and such (ala mustang GT) that always seem to warp and get
broken. This has a tendency to contribute to their "ragged out" appearance. The
442 package was much more tastfully done (IMOP) and has aged much better.


 				Pat Clark
    				 69 442
    			        400/TH400
    			  clark@abu.dseg.ti.com

     The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:44:56 -0300
Subject: Re: ReplyFor an every day car you don't want a 83-84 H/O. Don't get me wrong,

> View the 442? http://yogi-bear.stjohns.edu/~johnny/442.gif
> 
> -- 
> Bill !                                        _           _       ___
>                                             /  |        /  |    /  _  \
> 83 Hurst/Olds 15th Aniversary Edition     /    |      /    |   |_|   | |
> 86 442 The Perfect "10"                 /  / | |_   /  / | |_      /  /
>                                        |_____   _| |_____   _|   /  /__
>                                              |_|         |_|   |_______|

Nice looking car Bill. Quick question for you. What size are those wheels ?
15 X 7?. BTW, Buick,Olds,Pontiac (BOP) Collectors guide magazine has a short 
article ( 3 pgs 5-6 pics) on a 85 442 that looks identical to yours except it
also sports a H/O hood. The back issue is Oct 94. That issue also contains an
article on a 57 Olds 88. Thanks for the info and opinions.

 				Pat Clark
    				 69 442
    			        400/TH400
    			  clark@abu.dseg.ti.com

     The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.

------------------------------

From: bryce_smith@442.com (Bryceman)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:50:13 -0300
Subject: Looking for old Oldsmobiles for the Centennial 

List members...

I rec'd the following Email in my box this morning and thought I would pass
it along.
- -Bryceman


>We are looking for anyone who may have the following model years
>Oldsmobiles for the Centennial celebration in Aug. 1997.
>
>	1906	1910	1912	1914	1925	1926
>
>We are in hopes that you would help "spread the word"
>
>If people with those year vehicles can be located, I would appreciate the
> information on how to contact them.  I am working with Bob Jarboe and
>the Olds PR staff in locating vehicles.  Currently, we have over 1,600
>cars committed to attending the Oldsmobile Centennial celebration in
>1997.
>
>Any info (name, address, phone, E-mail address, or whatever) would be
>appreciated.  Dave_Byers@Lansing-Online.com
>
>We can also provide registration forms to anyone who would like to attend
>but have not sent one in as yet!  Just need to know where to send one.
>
>Also, Olds informed me, today, that their very own web-site is expected
>to be up and online on July 1, 1996.
>
>			Thanks for any help you could provide.
>
>			OLDS FOREVER !!

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:59:47 -0300
Subject: olds articles

Last night I was digging through some of my old back issues of some car mags and
decided to make a list of Olds articles in them. FYI, here are some of them in 
no particular order:

>From BOP collectors guide:

Aug 95 	70 442 conv
	69 Vista cruiser W-30

Jul 95	67 442
	68 442 stocker

Jun 95	Olds fuely race car (vintage)

Jun 94 	61 Starfire conv.
	65 442

May 94 	72 442 Mondello's VO Twister II

Mar 94	Jetfire Wagon
	73 442

Oct 94 	57 88
	85 442

Sep 94	70 442 W-30

Jul 94	W-27 rear ends
	72 H/O Pace car

Aug 94	66 W-30 
	73 442

Nov 94	68 W-30 conv.
	60 super 88

Dec 94	66 W-30 clone
	60 super 88

Jan 95	63 Starfire conv.
	69 442 W-32

Feb 95	66 Toronado
	75 442

Feb 94	demolition man 442's
	
Mar 95 	72 S/S Wagon
	Mondello's Mrs Twister

Apr 95	68 Cutlass S conv.

May 95	41 98 Phaeton
	69 H/O


Sorry that was so long winded. If anyone is going to order a back issue let me 
know and I will double check the date for you (make no claims on the accuracy of
the above list ;-). Also have lots of back issues of Cars and Parts along with
Classic Auto Rest. Will look through those and post a list if anyone has any    interest.


 				Pat Clark
    				 69 442
    			        400/TH400
    			  clark@abu.dseg.ti.com

     The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 06:44:53 -0300
Subject: EGR and Misc stuff. 

     For some clues on how the EGR relates to the ECM, you might want to 
     check out http://ni.umd.edu:80/gnttype/www/malf.html.  These are the 
     error codes for the turbo Regals, but many of them are the same for 
     Olds engines.  Also check in a Chiltons manual or equivalent, it'll 
     list error codes and their possible causes.  You'll be surprised at 
     the number of codes that list faulty EGR as a possible cause.
     
     I also found a lot of pertinent G-body info on the Turbo Regal home 
     page.  I downloaded a bunch of files from their FTP archives and I'm 
     still looking through them.  Among them I found detailed instructions 
     on how to remove, repair, and replace the power antenna on my '84 H/O 
     (including GM part numbers for the repair kit), tips for traction, how 
     to install a headliner, heater core, tranny removal, replacing the 
     lockup converter with a non-lockup, and lots of other stuff.  If you 
     have a G-body, go check it out!
     
     Tom L.

------------------------------

From: Fernando Proietto <proietto@dow.on.doe.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 23:11:11 -0300
Subject: You gotta help me with this PUSH ROD problem

A little while back I asked about those adjustable push rods. Someone replied saying that 
Modello had them but they carried a $200 price tag with them. Well, the stock push rods in 
my '72 350 are causing some serious noise these days and getting worse. When I rebulit the 
engine I began cutting back on the expense of the rebuild. I decided to ue my #5 heads and 
just lap the valves instead of a rebuilding them. Also, I used the stock push rods. 
Problem is that I used FelPros high performance head gasket, you know, the thick one with 
a metal retainer around the piston opening. Well they are significantly thicker than the 
stock metal head gasket and thus more room for the push rod to play in. 

In any case the noise sounds pretty bad and so now I want to fix it. But before I go ahead 
and order these expensive puppies can we try and diagnoise the problem a little more. This 
is the history:

Back in 92-93 I rebuilt the '72 350 engine. I bored the cyliders 30 over and decked the 
block for staraightness. No more than .005 was taken off.  Had the internals balanced and 
used #5 heads. Also used Modello 16-18 cam with lifters and matching springs which came in 
a kit. Just cleaned up the valves and lapped them, that's it. Used the high performance 
FelPro head gasket and the stock push rods as they were straight and look useable. I 
didn't count on them being like this today. Ordered new stock rockers and retainers. 
Installed everything and after a little while the 'noise' was introduced. I even bought 
new stock length push rods for the 350, which are still in the GM wrapping new unopened, 
but I didn't have the heart to install them for fear that I was not solving the problem.

Now, what can be done, short of replacing the entire valve tarin? Can we discuss this a 
bit?

Is this excessive tapping going to damage the cam? The car hasn't seen any driving yet as 
the restoration is just coming to a finish. I start in in the winter and noe start it 
every weenkend for a drive around the block, that's it. At most this engine has not more 
than 100 miles on it since the rebuild.

Help me out guys I just want a quiet sounding engine, is this too much to ask for from an 
olds...?


Regards
Fernando Proietto

------------------------------

From: Bill Gochenour <billg@sjuvm.stjohns.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:12:02 -0300
Subject: Re: 83,84 H/O 85-87 442

Pat Clark 952-3776 wrote:
> 
> > Agreed; you want some sort of security system in there. And as a
> > daily driver, I think you'll wind up with rust-through in the doors
> > and rear quarters before too long. IOW, if you're going to all the
> > trouble of finding a rust-free model to begin with, treating it as
> > a daily driver, even with the best care, seems a little anti-climactic...
> 
> I don't worry too much about rust, I live in Texas. Usually don't see very many
> cars that are all rusted up down here (except the ones you yankees drive down!)
> ;-) I remember my first trip to Minn. and being astounded by the rust floretts
> blooming on the sides of many cars.
> 
> > Ever notice how the Monte Carlo SSs on the street seem to look awfully
> > beat up for their age?
> >
> > Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
> > Datalogics, Inc.
> > 441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
> > Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473
> >
> >
> >
> 
> I think the relatively higher price and lower performance placed most of the mid
> 80's 442 into the hands of more caring and mature owners. The montes have all of
> those extra airdams and such (ala mustang GT) that always seem to warp and get
> broken. This has a tendency to contribute to their "ragged out" appearance. The
> 442 package was much more tastfully done (IMOP) and has aged much better.
> 
>                                 Pat Clark
>                                  69 442
>                                 400/TH400
>                           clark@abu.dseg.ti.com
> 
>      The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.

You can see just how tasteful the way Oldsmobile balances the use of 
crome and paint from the regular cutlass to the H/O & 442. Only suttle 
changes, never all the way to either extreme. Take the wheels for example 
its a standard cutlass wheel but, they crome the entire thing so no ring 
is needed to finsh the edge. Then around the lug nut area a little paint, 
gold for the 442 & silver for the H/O. The diference is amazing ! And the 
answer to the question is yes they are 15x7. Check the site next week I 
should have the 83 H/O on there too.
- -- 
Bill !                                        _           _       ___
                                            /  |        /  |    /  _  \
83 Hurst/Olds 15th Aniversary Edition     /    |      /    |   |_|   | |
86 442 The Perfect "10"                 /  / | |_   /  / | |_      /  /
                                       |_____   _| |_____   _|   /  /__
                                             |_|         |_|   |_______|

View 442 at http://yogi-bear.stjohns.edu/~johnny/442.gif

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:21:41 -0300
Subject: RE: Door Handle Slippage

I think duct tape would work better than band-aids... :)

- ----------
From: 	SG Hartfelder[SMTP:shartfel@planet.eol.net]
Sent: 	Tuesday, June 18, 1996 12:40 PM
To: 	Oldsmobile List
Subject: 	Door Handle Slippage

Question.

I wanted to replace the door handles on my car and=20
when I removed the handles, I noticed that the grip=20
(gears) on the door have been stripped.  I=12ve=20
purchased nice new door handles for the car but=20
can=12t put them on because the handles just turn=20
without grabbing the door mechanism.

Remember, the car is 58 years old and it=12s kinda=20
tough to find the replacement part for the door.

Any Band-Aid ideas out there while I search for a=20
replacement?

------------------------------

From: lawrencr@kostabi.gdls.com (Robert Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:21:23 -0300
Subject: Re: Door Handle Slippage

> Question.
> 
> I wanted to replace the door handles on my car and 
> when I removed the handles, I noticed that the grip 
> (gears) on the door have been stripped.  Ive 
> purchased nice new door handles for the car but 
> cant put them on because the handles just turn 
> without grabbing the door mechanism.
> 
> Remember, the car is 58 years old and its kinda 
> tough to find the replacement part for the door.
> 
> Any Band-Aid ideas out there while I search for a 
> replacement?

Actually, a band-aid is a possible idea, if I understand
the problem correctly.  Wrap a layer of
white adhesive tape around the gears.  That should create
a tight enough fit to make the handle not slip.

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Lawrence   | 1970 Oldsmobile 98 Convertible               .^.
lawrencr@gdls.com |  _________,~--,___________\____________     /9|8\
(810) 825-5450    |  |                |~    |        ___   |    \}|{/
Sterling Hts., MI |  =------(-o-)-------------------( o )--=      v



 

------------------------------

From: idaholc@primenet.com (Bill Goodnight)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:50:36 -0300
Subject: "America on Wheels" 

For those of you who missed it, too bad!  "America on Wheels" on PBS (3
parts - 2nd part aired last night) prominently featured Oldsmobiles,
including some great early television commericals, and theater promotions.
Cars featured included '48 - 52's, but predominantly 1956.  For those of you
who consider 1970 + cars classics, the next show might be worth watching.
Check your listings. 

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:14:14 -0300
Subject: Re: "America on Wheels"

Bill Goodnight wrote:
> 
> For those of you who consider 1970 + cars classics, the next show might 
> be worth watching.

60s?


The 66 Toro and Mike and the rest of the Woodstock Generation

      (anyone who can remember the 60s wasn't there)


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:34:16 -0300
Subject: Re: Starter problems 

In a message dated 96-06-17 20:42:53 EDT, you write:

<< Couple questions: First problem.  In 30 years in electronics, I have never
heard an 
 engineer or technician refer to "heat soak" as a reason for a soleniod or 
 motor fail to operate.  So exactly what are we talking about here?
  >>
 
I agree, not exactly a technical expression.  I'm no engineer (a radiation
biologist actually) but it seems to fit the situation.  Car/engine is cool -
starts fine.  Car/engine hot - no start and keep it up and you fry those
battery cables.  Wait to cool off and lo and behold it works now.  I've even
sprayed a hot engine with water to cool it down quicker and that works too.
No, no castings cracked. If it was that easy something would crack every time
you hit a big water puddle.  So, "heat soak" isn't exactly a technically
correct expression but it describes the effect.  This was a fairly widespread
problem in the late 60's-mid 70's with all those BB whatevers shoe horned
into an intermediate size body.  GM brought out a solenoid more resistant to
the heat and also offers heat shields. Headers aggravate the situation too.

>> can appreciate the added security not having that wire hot but I would 
seem to me that you've just traded one hot wire for another.  You still 
must have power to the front.

Yeah, but it's a 10 gauge wire with a fusable link.  It can't carry a
fraction of the current and it's fused.  I've never seen battery cables with
a fuse, Olds didn't supply one with the 66-67 W-30s.  I know of cars and
houses lost as a result of that long cable running from the battery, across
the trunk (in it!), out of the trunk and through the frame all the way to the
starter or junction block.  _Lots_ of potential sources for a worn or rubbed
section to ground and make big problem.

>>Short (no pun intended) of replacing the solenoid actuated type with a 
positive engagement type, there is no way you can remote the solenoid.  
Doing so would also remove the drive-to-flywheel and the starter would 
turn it's little wires off but the motor would never turn.

The kits don't remove the part of the starter that performs the
drive-to-flywheel but it does remove the current carrying part.  I've taken
apart quite a few GM starter solenoids and even flipped the washer like
contact to "rejuvenate" a balky starter. Works for a while but only replaces
half the contact area.  The drive-to-starter action is a field effect -
right?  This takes little current compared to spinning the starter motor.

>>Can't see where this has changed "heat 
soak" or anything else electricly.  The solenoid is still where it was 
and is still doing exactly what it did before.

No it's not, it no longer carries the current from the battery cable through
the solenoid contacts.  That cable is now connected directly, no moving
contacts at the hot engine mounted solenoid are needed and the heavy large
gauge cable is hot (current) only when the external solenoid is triggered by
the ignition switch.  The contacts carry no current any longer, only
activates the field to throw the drive into the flywheel.

Make sense?  All I know is I no longer have a starting problem (using the
very same starter as before installation of the kit) and I sleep better at
night knowing the "hot" wire supplying my clock and AM/FM radio at least has
fuse in line.

Better question, when are you putting the flames on the Toro??

Bob Handren  OCA #7728
'67 W-30 Modified
'70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:34:13 -0300
Subject: Re: Toronado Electric Windows Now Work 

In a message dated 96-06-18 10:37:02 EDT, you write:

<<  had no luck finding a new relay -- they stopped making them in 1980.  So
 I had to repair the old relay.  I >>

A plain ole horn relay from NAPA or other similar supplier will work in
_most_ cases.

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:33:39 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Starter Problems 

In a message dated 96-06-18 12:08:39 EDT, you write:

<< I've never heard of 
      anyone using circuit breakers in a car, but I don't see why it 
      wouldn't work. >>

There are automotive circuit breakers of varying amperage available that
replace the fuse.   Try NAPA or similar.  A real boon when you have a system
you're trouble shooting. After you run through a couple dozen burn thru types
you've paid for the breaker.

I've seen them factory installed in some cars (esp F**d) for circuits such as
power seats and windows which are subject to surges in amperage demand.

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:30:59 -0300
Subject: Re: "America on Wheels"

> Bill Goodnight wrote:
> > 
> > For those of you who consider 1970 + cars classics, the next show might 
> > be worth watching.

Ahh, the ol' "What makes a car classic and/or antique?" debate :)
As we all know, many, if not most, RMVs/DMVs/etc in the US and Canada state
that a car can be registered as an antique if it's 25 years old or older.
This would include 1971 models (Yow!!  Ch*vy Vegas & F*rd Pintos as 'antiques'!
I shudder at the very thought! :) )

Certainly, that which makes a car "classic" is subjective.  For instance,
I'd consider a 71 or 72 442 a 'classic'.  The same could not be said
of a 71 or 72 AMC Hornet, but hey, that's just me :)

And Michael R. Frederick wrote:
> 
> 60s?

Well, in reference to what Bill said about 1970 + cars... 1970 is *still*
considered to be part of the 1960s (i.e. 1961-1970)... though I've heard some
folks say that the 60s (in spirit anyways) ended the night Nixon resigned
in August of '74 :)

This is related to the fact that the new millenium will start on Jan 1, 2001,
*not* in the year 2000.

> 
> 
> The 66 Toro and Mike and the rest of the Woodstock Generation
> 
>       (anyone who can remember the 60s wasn't there)

Well, *I* remember the 60s, but then again, I was only 10 y.o. when the 70s
started :)



Tim Churchill (who remembers vividly the debut episodes of Get Smart,
               The Monkees, Gilligan's Island and Lost In Space :) )
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'88 Cadillac Brougham, a.k.a. 'Big Blue' -- Olds 307 Powered!!
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: BRAD.NICHOLSON@s3abac8.ssa.gov
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:52:34 -0300
Subject: 83,84 H/O 85-87 442 (& Salon?) 

Pat And all the rest

Mine is an '87 442 and here's my 1.75 cents worth:

>1. Reliability
  Reliability hasn't been a problem, except for
  a) Trans puked out @ 14K (Wrong toirque converter from the factory)
      & again at 120K.  100K out of a Chevette 4 speed is pretty good.
      Be carefull and listen for a whine in the trans at all speeds, even 
      cruisin' speed.
  b) On my 3rd water pump
  c) Intake manifold gaskets went at about 100K
  d) Had the carb rebuilt at about 115K, mainly for the throttle shafts
     needing to have bushings installed.  Had the whole thing rebuilt 
     w/ throttle shaft bushings by the Carburator Shop out in CA for
     about $245, cheaper than getting a rebuilt one from GM or 
     Western Auto
>2. Standard engines?
    OLDSMOBILE 307 Engine Code 9 - 180 hp
    OLDSMOBILE 307 Engine Code Y - 140 hp

>3. Mpg?
     21-22
>4. Parts availability
    Mechanicaly, no problem, trim parts are getting scarce from the factory 
    i.e door panels and maybe some stripes in certain color combinations
>5. Maintainability
    Easy to maintain, just the back 2 spark plugs on the passenger side are
    an incredible B*&^% to get to at times
>6. T-Tops? worth the hassle?
    Don't have them, don't know.
>7. Avg. $ for a daily driver (real nice, not a show car. no rust!)
    As others have said before, don't go over $7K for a 442 or H/O unless
    it is pristine or show quality. Avg arpound here in Baltimore is $5K
>8. Scarcity
     Around here there are 100 Monte Carlo SS's for every 442 or H/O
>7. which models were fuel injected?
     None
>8. Impossible to find parts I should make sure are in good shape
     Rubber around the windows.  I haven't been able to find aftermarket 
     rubber gaskets for around the doors yet. Tried Steele, Metro and A&M
SoffSeal
     Take a good look at the window fuzzies also.
>9. Trouble areas I should check.
     Same as other posts
     a) Rust under the doors and in the rear wheel wells.
     b) Transmission sounds (whine)
     c) Leaky tops
     d) Worn out suspensions (over 85K)    

My car was a daily driver from May 1987 thru January 1996 with an accumulated 
134K before retirement. (Now I drive a Hunda Accordion back and forth to work). 

If it wasn't for the mileage on it and driving in snow (the last 2 winters here
in 
Baltimore have been scary with rear wheel drive, even w/ 5 cinder blocks in the 
trunk) I would still have it as my daily driver.  Now I can save up for my paint

job and get it to Lansing looking on the outside as good as new, the engine
needs
a little detailing though.  It's tight as a drum, no oil leaks.  (Let's see what
happens
when I go syth-oil though)

One option I haven't heard is how about getting a Salon or it's predecessor the 
Calais. You get the sporty stuff just not the stripes or H/O motor.  If mileage 
is a problem, go with a V6 and you still get the FE3 suspension.  How about 
painting the SSII's argent grey or finding some non-chrome SSii's from a full
size
 RWD Delta 88  painting them body color, Go even further by putting on a 70-72
 442 belt stripe w/ 442 markings, a Lauren Engineering 83-4 H/O rear wing and 
a Dick Miller W-30 hood with the same W-30 stripes, just to be different.

God, how I can spend other peoples money.

I know of a 1987 442 for sale in the Baltimore area, Silver w/ silver interior.
I'll call him and check it out if you want

Brad Nicholson
1987 442 W-42 
76062.3042@compuserve.com
President - Capitol City Rockets Chapter, OCA

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:14:19 -0300
Subject: Re: 83,84 H/O 85-87 442 (& Salon?)

> 
> I know of a 1987 442 for sale in the Baltimore area, Silver w/ silver interior.
> I'll call him and check it out if you want
> 
> Brad Nicholson
> 1987 442 W-42 
> 76062.3042@compuserve.com
> President - Capitol City Rockets Chapter, OCA
> 

Thanks for the info and the offer, but I am in Dallas, Tx. Maybe if the search
comes up blank around here I'll take you up on it.


 				Pat Clark
    				 69 442
    			        400/TH400
    			  clark@abu.dseg.ti.com

     The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:12:09 -0300
Subject: Re: Starter problems

BobH592058@aol.com wrote:
> 
> ... it seems to fit the situation.  Car/engine is cool - starts fine.  
> Car/engine hot - no start and keep it up and you fry those
> battery cables.  Wait to cool off and lo and behold it works now.

Agreed.  However with a GOOD solenoid and a GOOD starter, this doesn't 
occur, does it?  In other words, if you replaced the starter/solenoid, 
the problem would go away?

> So, "heat soak" isn't exactly a technically correct expression but it 
> describes the effect.  

OK, no problem with slang.  It just seems to be bantered about like it 
was gospel from NASA.

> Yeah, but it's a 10 gauge wire with a fusable link.  It can't carry a
> fraction of the current and it's fused.  I've never seen battery cables 
> with a fuse, Olds didn't supply one with the 66-67 W-30s.

It could be done with little difficulty though.

> ... cars and houses lost as a result of that long cable running from 
> the battery, across the trunk, out of the trunk and through the frame 
> all the way to the starter or junction block.

No argument that it's a crappy (and potentially dangerous) way of moving 
a few pounds to the rear of the car.

> The drive-to-starter action is a field effect - right?

Yeah, I guess you can call it that.  The solenoid shaft moves forward by 
a magnetic field which pushes on a lever which, in turn, pushes the 
starter gear to the flywheel.

> This takes little current compared to spinning the starter motor.

Yes.

> No it's not, it no longer carries the current from the battery cable 
> through the solenoid contacts.  That cable is now connected directly, 
> no moving contacts at the hot engine mounted solenoid are needed and 
> the heavy large gauge cable is hot (current) only when the external 
> solenoid is triggered by the ignition switch.  The contacts carry no 
> current any longer, only activates the field to throw the drive into 
> the flywheel.

OK, fine.  So, if I'm following you correctly, the so called "heat soak" 
problem is a problem with high temperatures affecting the solenoid 
contacts?  The neurons seem a little agitated at this.  It would seem 
slightly higher-tech contacts are in order.

> ... I sleep better at night knowing the "hot" wire supplying my clock 
> and AM/FM radio at least has fuse in line.

I don't blame you.
 
> Better question, when are you putting the flames on the Toro??

After it's repainted FIRE ENGINE RED!


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:20:43 -0300
Subject: Re: "America on Wheels"

Timothy A. Churchill wrote:
> 
> ... 1970 is *still* considered to be part of the 1960s (i.e. 
> 1961-1970)... though I've heard some folks say that the 60s (in spirit 
> anyways) ended the night Nixon resigned in August of '74 :)

That would be Limbaugh.

> This is related to the fact that the new millenium will start on Jan 1, 
> 2001, *not* in the year 2000.

And why Stanley and Arthur C. didn't call the move "2000".
           (My gawd, it's full of stars!)

> Well, *I* remember the 60s, but then again, I was only 10 y.o. when the 
> 70s started :)

Would that be 1970 or 1971?    ;)


The 66 Toro and Mike (who still remembers Pinky Lee, 
                       Captain Midnight, and others)


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated
Tampa, Florida
(813) 210-8649

------------------------------

From: clark@sh28.dseg.ti.com (Pat Clark 952-3776)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:24:28 -0300
Subject: Re: olds articles

>Just what is a "BOP Collectors guide", please?  I'm always interested in 
>literature on the 66 Toro, and I would certainly get a back issue...

>Thanks for posting the list, good job.

>Michael

**************

>1966 Canadian Toro and Michael - in search of distinct identity - 




BOP stands for Buick, Olds, Pontiac Collectors Guide. It is now called the
GM collectors guide (added ch*vy and Cadillac articles). With the addition of
the rest of the GM, the mag became less interesting to me so I dropped my
subscription. Acticles are rather short on information and poorly written.
Editorials appear to be written by a hacked-off high school kid. Usually one or
two color photos and 4-5 B&W shots of each featured car. Over half of the mag
is devoted to classified ads for the GM makes. Not as polished as say Cars and
Parts, but it does showcase some cars that you would never see anywhere else.
Will scan the Toro issue for all you Toro-heads and let you what it is about.



 				Pat Clark
    				 69 442
    			        400/TH400
    			  clark@abu.dseg.ti.com

     The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.

------------------------------

From: "Shawn M. Twomey" <stwom@ctp.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:47:33 -0300
Subject: Grounding problems 

I'm having some grounding problems with my '85 Cutlass, and was wondering if
anyone could point out some good spots to check the grounds.

The most noticeable symptom is that the dinger that's supposed to make noise
if you leave your lights on or the keys in the ignition "dings" at weird
times, like when activating the power locks switch.  I'll turn the car off,
open my door, and hit the switch, and I get a little ding-ding (sounds like
a personal problem) along with the locking doors.  It also dings when I turn
on the four-way-flashers-every pulse=a ding.  Many other things...headlights
dim when I put the turn signal on, brake lights aren't bright enough,
braking causes the radio to crackle.  I think what's happening is that
something is grounded properly and the juice is flowing back thru and
activating other stuff, like my dingers.  Oh, the little light under my
center console that lights up the PRNOD21 lights doesn't work, unless I open
the console hatch, activating both the compartment light (which it should)
AND the PRNOD21 display light, no matter if the headlights are on or not!  Doh!

Anyway, I had some of these symptoms before, and it turned out that the
ground from the firewall to the tranny case was broken, but now thats fine,
and was looking for some other places to check.  I've already checked out
the tail light ground in the trunk, and will check out the console light as
well (I've been avoiding that because putting it back together with those
short wires is a pain in the keister-anyone who's done it shares that pain,
I'm sure).

Thanks for any help,
Shawn

__________________________________________________________________________
Shawn M. Twomey     |  "No!  Try NOT!  Do, or do not.  There is no try."
stwom@ctp.com       |  -Yoda
__________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@frame.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:56:26 -0300
Subject: Re: Grounding problems 

>I'm having some grounding problems with my '85 Cutlass, and was wondering if
>anyone could point out some good spots to check the grounds.

I think your best bet is to find someone with the manual and check the
wiring diagram, because the ground connections are specifically listed.
I agree that it's 99% likely to be a busted ground.

>I think what's happening is that
>something is grounded properly and the juice is flowing back thru and
>activating other stuff, like my dingers.

Exactly. But the fact that you've got _so_ much going nuts seems to
point to some really basic (main junction) ground that's gone bad.
You can never have too many ground wires. How about making up a long
piece of wire with alligator clips on either end, then using it to
join random large metal objects (e.g. dash frame to firewall, dash
frame to engine block, engine block to negative battery terminal)
and see when the problem goes away?

Can you match when the problem first occurred to some major piece of
work you did on the car?

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@frame.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: WKELLY@TrentU.ca
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:08:00 -0300
Subject: Re: "America on Wheels"

I remember the 60s!  But then again ... I owned a Ford Pinto, too!

__________________________________________________________________
W Kelly,  (91 Tempo, what can I say?!)
Doting daughter 
of J Harper (47 Olds)

------------------------------

From: Frank Boerger <103454.317@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:09:59 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Starter Problems

In a message dated 96-06-18 12:08:39 EDT, you write:

<< I've never heard of 
      anyone using circuit breakers in a car, but I don't see why it 
      wouldn't work. >>

If you want some really good, tough duty circuit breakers, in a wide variety 
of sizes, try your local John Deere Dealer....Deere uses them throughout 
their lawn/garden/and field tractors and dozers/escavators !

Frank Boerger
'68 Cutlass convertible

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #207
********************************

