To:	oldsmobile-digest @ ccn.cs.dal.ca @ INTERNET
cc:	 
From:	oldsmobile-digest-owner @ ccn.cs.dal.ca @ INTERNET @ ABTLAB
Date:	08/29/96 07:39:18 PM
Subject:	oldsmobile-digest V1 #283


oldsmobile-digest         Thursday, 29 August 1996      Volume 01 : Number 283


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 13:22:06 -0300
Subject: Overfill bottle 

     The radiator overflow bottle on my '84 H/O is downright nasty looking 
     compared to the rest of the nice clean engine.  I've removed it and 
     scrubbed as best I can (it's hard to get inside there) but it didn't 
     help much.  The plastic is stained on the inside pretty badly.  Does 
     anyone know of a "resto tip" to help save this thing?
     
     What would happen if I filled it with a bleach/water solution and let 
     it soak overnight?  Any chance the bleach would damage the plastic?  
     I'd guess not since the bleach is *in* a plastic jug already.
     
     Thanks!
     
     Tom L.
     

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 21:36:16 -0300
Subject: Re: Shifter Plate on '68 442 Floor Shifter(POP Metal) 

          Craig,
          
          The ball unscrews.  Trust me.  Just keep turning.  Of 
          course, the next problem you will find is that the chrome 
          plate (the technical term is _pot_ metal, BTW) will not 
          clear the "T" finger grip.  This is held on with a small 
          diameter roll pin which is driven through from side to side. 
          Look closely below the finger grips.  Drive this out with a 
          small punch or a finish nail.  The grip will now also slide 
          off the end of the stick, leaving clear passage for the 
          chrome plate.
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30
          

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 21:05:47 -0300
Subject: Re: toratioInformation 

At 08:41 AM 8/30/96 -0400, you wrote:
>At 04:48 PM 8/28/96 -0300, you wrote:
>>This past weekend I saw a cutlass Convert(pace car) 70, that had the
[snip]
>>I anot trying to hurt the sales of these, but the appearand
>>appearance of then was bad. 
>>First the vyl was d flat,
>
>I can't tell what that is either (vyl was d flat)...

Yup, I'd guess an error-correcting modem is being ordered as we speak... I
thought the message was going to contain information about Tornado gear ratios!

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado Standard Coupe & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block
boys)
- - 1978 Electra Limited Landau Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 16:15:24 -0300
Subject: Re: Information Needed for 70 Cutlass

DELPROPO@emuvax.emich.edu wrote:
> 
> Could someone tell me if the heater bypass hose was paintealong with the 
engin
> at the factory.. thanks

My 1973 455 Cutlass was which I bought new.  I really believe that the 
others were too.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: dcart@micro.ti.com (Donald B Cart)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 21:28:25 -0300
Subject: bodyshops 

Does anyone know of a good body shop in the Houston, Tx 
area for work on a '71 Cutlass ?

Thanks,
Don

------------------------------

From: "Jason P. Labay" <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 21:43:19 -0300
Subject: Re: shop manuals

Original Chassis Manuals go for $25 to-$45 used at swap meets on average My
80 and 75 cost $35 each. MY used 75 looks almost brand new while the 80
shows a little wear.

At 03:24 PM 8/28/96 -0300, Blaine Sanders 5483 wrote:
>Year One has shop manual reprints for $46.  Anyone seen them
>cheaper?  I still haven't got my Fusicks catalog...
__________________________________________________
Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com)
1988 IROC Z/28...............salvage yard special
1980  4-4-2 W-30.............1 of  886       OCA#027572
1975 Hurst/Olds W-25...1 of 2535  H/OCA#0278A
Just what the doctor ordered....those awesome W-Machines.

------------------------------

From: Nick DiGiovanni <ndigiova@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 20:34:36 -0300
Subject: Re: Redline Water Wetter: experience/sources? 

At 02:36 PM 8/28/96 -0300, you wrote:

>Water Wetter is supposed to increase the cooling efficiency of the coolant,
>dropping temps by about 10 degrees. Since the motor is entirely fresh, and
>the radiator is a brand-new 3-row unit, and the clutch fan is in good shape
>(as is the shroud), I'd think this additive would be the most efficient way
>to drop the temps a couple more degrees.

Since the cooling of a car is all dependent on how much and how fast you can
remove heat from the water, then I don't quite understand how adding any
ingredient to the water will in itself lower the temp by any amount.  For
instance, if the water temperature is 200 F and you add "Water Wetter" then
the temperature of the water is still 200 F.  Depending on the ingredients
in this product, you may change the boiling point by a few degrees but you
can not change the temperature of the water.  The temperature will only drop
if you can increase the heat transfer to the air outside (ie. thru the
radiator).

I've heard that it contains anti-foamers that will cause less bubbles in the
water passages thus creating better heat conduction (or something like
this).  If this was the case, then your water temperature should go up and
not down.  I don't think that there are enough bubbles or even large enough
bubbles in a fast moving cooling system to be a cooling "barrier".
Furthermore, the system is under pressure which makes it even more difficult
to form a bubble especially below the boiling point of water (212 F) at
atmospheric.

Adding a larger radiator and/or more cooling fans is the only way to remove
heat from the radiator and thus cooling the engine.  Using anti-freeze is a
good way to increase your boiling point and thus less bubbling.  Ethylene
Glycol has a boiling point of 198 C or 388 F.

In my engines, I use 50% Ethylene Glycol, ~1000 ppm of Molybdenum (corrosion
inhibitor), ~20 ppm of Azole (protects amphoteric metals which are soft
metals such as copper and brass) and ~ 100 ppm of Silica to protect aluminum
parts.  Our raw city water has only 4 ppm of total hardness so it is very
much like deionized water.  This custom blend is great for corrosion and
scale protection but without my 4-core rad, the big block would boil over
anyway ;')





Nick DiGiovanni
Port Coquitlam, B.C.
1970 4-4-2 - "Snarls Softly and Carries a Big Kick"

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 16:35:55 -0300
Subject: Re: DOT 5 Brake Fluid Conversion

Greg Beaulieu wrote:
> 
> Anyone ever converted to DOT 5 brake fluid using their existing brake
> hardware i.e. not during a rebuild? If so, how do you flush all of the
> old fluid out of the system? I heard that alcohol was used for this but
> that sounds strange to me. If so, how do you get the alcohol out?
> 
> Any positive or negative effects from your personal experience after doing
> the switchover?
> 
> Enlighten me, please....
> 
> Greg Beaulieu        

Greg:

Silicone brake fluid equipped cars that I have driven have a spongier, 
softer brake feel than regular brake fluid.  Braking distances have been 
reported as being longer.  I have also heard that the Dot 5 fluid isn't 
always compatible w/rubber parts in your old brake system & leaks 
develop.  Studebaker people complain of destroyed brake light switches 
at regular intervals (they are mounted on the end of the master cylinder 
as Mustangs are).  That flushing business is tough & many suggest that 
you start over w/a complete brake rebuild & not have to go through that. 
 If you haven't noticed, the price of Dot 5 is a little high also.
Most people have found that there are plusses & minuses to any brake 
fluid available.  I have elected to stay w/the highest grade regular 
fluid.  There hasn't been any major problem so far.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 21:55:41 -0300
Subject: Re: '70 SX Convertible 

In a message dated 96-08-28 18:27:52 EDT, you write:

<< Greg, if SX Olds are your thing, check out my 71 on Bryceman's owners
 registry. It is listed as Robert Bishop's 71 SX Cutlass Supreme.
 The 70 conv. sounds like a good choice to me.
  >>

There's an SX in town here that I've had my eye on for a couple of years.
 The elder owner must work at the American Legion post (or he'a a REAL heavy
drinker) 'cause that's where I always see it.  It's a coupe, painted factory
lime green metallic (Cool!) with a black top and black bucket interior.
 Still has the cutout bumper, but the trumpets are gone, replaced by standard
pipes.  Passenger side quarter is nailed pretty good.  Has A/C too.  Waiting
till he decides to sell it...

Paul

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 21:54:25 -0300
Subject: Re: toratioInformation 

In a message dated 96-08-28 16:22:59 EDT, you write:

<< I can't tell what that is either (vyl was d flat)...
  >>

My proof reader must found another job ;)

Paul

------------------------------

From: DESIMONEP@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 22:10:43 -0300
Subject: Re: Overfill bottle 

The coolant recovery bottle is a pretty inexpensive item at the dealer, and
no amount of elbow grease or bleach can make it look like new!! Around
$10-$15 here in California.

Phil De Simone
desimonep@aol.com
1968 Olds Cutlass "S" Convertible

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 22:14:04 -0300
Subject: Re: paint 

At 06:56 PM 8/28/96 -0400, you wrote:
>I need to repaint the air filter housing (just the top) on my 71 Delta.  I
am looking for paint that will match almost perfectly.  Does anyone have any
suggestions?

I used "Satin Black" Rustoleum; midway between the gloss and the flat. Looks
close enough for me, but I'm not a purist. Most resto houses have a black
that they claim will pass for original.

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado Standard Coupe & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block
boys)
- - 1978 Electra Limited Landau Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 22:34:17 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Redline Water Wetter: experience/sources? 

At 11:52 AM 8/28/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>     That might be how some of it's effects are accounted for, but it's 
>     supposed to be a surfactant (sp?).  It basically makes the watter 
>     "thinner" and "runnier" and lowers the surface tension.  This lowered 

Right, that's why I wanted to use it. It does get below freezing regularly
here, and this is a year-round car that I've got a 50/50 mix of water and
antifreeze in.

The car originally had a 195deg. thermostat when I rebuilt it, but the temp
was climbing (was passing 230 when I shut her down) on initial startup. I
attributed this to the gunked-up radiator (*real* bad), but figured I may as
well change the thermostat too.

Well, changing the thermostat lowered my temps, but not because I put in a
180deg. unit. When I pulled out the old one, there was a piece of blue
silicone sealant (probably from the water pump gasket) jamming the
thermostat *open*, so that the coolant was circulating *too* quickly, thus
not having a chance to cool off.

With the new thermostat and radiator, the motor stayed at about 220-230deg
for the initial 1/2 hour break-in at 2000-3000rpm. Since then, it will idle
indefinitely at 180deg. while warming up, has stayed in the 200-210 range
while driving, and climbs to about 215-220deg during extended 80+mph runs.

>     Sorry to get off track guys, this isn't strictly Olds related, but 
>     seeing how a lot of Olds' with big engines could use cooling help I 
>     think it's worth mentioning.

I think most Olds' can use some cooling help!

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado Standard Coupe & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block
boys)
- - 1978 Electra Limited Landau Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: brett@actel.com
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 01:30:48 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Followup: Trunk Lamp and Strange Tabs on Back Seat 

     
     
        I looked up the below mentioned info in the Fisher manual.  This 
     retainer is different from the tabs on my Cutlass.  Mine are of an 
     open frame construction, and are too flimsy to hold a buckle like the 
     illustrated one can.  View B also indicates that the actual shoulder 
     belt attaches to the center-most seat belt hold-down bolts.  The belt 
     then drapes over the bench seat and over the shoulder of the front 
     outboard occupants.  This is an impossible arrangement in a bucket 
     seat equipped auto. 
     
        Hey Andrew, I looked in the owner's manual, ass'y manual, Fisher 
     Body manual, and the Olds shop manual.  No mention of them.  Thanks 
     anyway. 
     
        You folks sure are doing some great hunting and suggesting on my 
     behalf.  I think that it is very obscure, based on the fact that 
     nobody has seen them before in this vintage of A-body convertible.  
     
     Brett Chaveriat                brett@actel.com 
     Arlington Hts, IL
     
     '72 Cutlass Supreme convt  
      
______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Followup: Trunk Lamp and Strange Tabs on Back Seat
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at SMTPlink-Actel 
Date:    8/26/96 8:10 PM
     
     
In a message dated 96-08-26 12:07:22 EDT, you write:
     
<< As far as the tabs on the rear seat and armrest panel, they are not 
      intended to hold seat belts as suggested. >>
     
These tabs are shown on page 14-99 of the '72 Fisher body manual.  The 
illustration is for "B & E" convertibles.  They are called "front seat 
shoulder belt retainers".  Shows only one per side (naturally).  Does not 
show a tab at the bottom of the armrest.  Don't know why you have so many.
 There is no illustration for "A" convertibles.
     
Paul
     

------------------------------

From: Chris Urban <urbanch@magi.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 22:44:34 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Redline Water Wetter: experience/sources? 

jkAt 10:34 PM 8/28/96 -0300, you wrote:
>At 11:52 AM 8/28/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>     That might be how some of it's effects are accounted for, but it's 
>>     supposed to be a surfactant (sp?).  It basically makes the watter 
>>     "thinner" and "runnier" and lowers the surface tension.  This lowered 
>
>Right, that's why I wanted to use it. It does get below freezing regularly
>here, and this is a year-round car that I've got a 50/50 mix of water and
>antifreeze in.
>
>The car originally had a 195deg. thermostat when I rebuilt it, but the temp
>was climbing (was passing 230 when I shut her down) on initial startup. I
>attributed this to the gunked-up radiator (*real* bad), but figured I may as
>well change the thermostat too.
>
>Well, changing the thermostat lowered my temps, but not because I put in a
>180deg. unit. When I pulled out the old one, there was a piece of blue
>silicone sealant (probably from the water pump gasket) jamming the
>thermostat *open*, so that the coolant was circulating *too* quickly, thus
>not having a chance to cool off.
>
>With the new thermostat and radiator, the motor stayed at about 220-230deg
>for the initial 1/2 hour break-in at 2000-3000rpm. Since then, it will idle
>indefinitely at 180deg. while warming up, has stayed in the 200-210 range
>while driving, and climbs to about 215-220deg during extended 80+mph runs.
>
>>     Sorry to get off track guys, this isn't strictly Olds related, but 
>>     seeing how a lot of Olds' with big engines could use cooling help I 
>>     think it's worth mentioning.
>
>I think most Olds' can use some cooling help!
>
>-----------
>- Bob Barry
>- 1969 Toronado Standard Coupe & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block
>boys)
>- 1978 Electra Limited Landau Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 23:51:28 -0300
Subject: Re: Redline Water Wetter: experience/sources?

Yet it works, amazing isn't it.  Well to some degree anyway.  Maybe HELPS 
is a better word.  Running it is probably better than not running it, and 
it's cheaper than coolant at a 50% mix.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
 revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
 information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
 Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
 been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 23:48:43 -0300
Subject: Re: Redline Water Wetter: experience/sources?

That's the same thing I've heard, I've used WW and straight water in one 
hot-running car, and it helped.  Didn't SOLVE the problem but sure 
delayed the point at which the car had to be cooled down.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 I used to think that the Information age would spawn a great
 revolution as more people got smarter due to access to more
 information.  To the contrary, now that any idiot can use the
 Net, the integrity of the information contained therein has
 been corrupted.                          --Suntzu@ohana.com
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

------------------------------

From: Chris Fair <ChrisFair@fairisaac.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 00:32:44 -0300
Subject: Water Wetter 

I'm using this additive now and have noticed no difference what so ever. I
added it with new coolant after thoroughly flushing the radiator and system.
Was expecting a few degrees, but nothing. What *did* work was rejetting 
the carb richer. At least it's cooler at speed, now I have to work on idle.
cf

------------------------------

From: mike trussell <eagle1@tir.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 14:42:33 -0300
Subject: (no subject)

unsubscribe.oldsmobile

------------------------------

From: Chris Fair <ChrisFair@fairisaac.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 00:41:42 -0300
Subject: Water Wetter 

I followed precisely these instructions,just to clarify and didn't note any 
improvement.
cf

>try a bottle and put in a 160 thermostat and your temp should
go down.  Also when using this product, run a 50-50 mix
of water and coolant.

------------------------------

From: Chris Fair <ChrisFair@fairisaac.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 00:53:45 -0300
Subject: Overfill Bottle 

For those of you who (like me) didn't get an overflow tank on your 60's oldses,
may I suggest you go to the junkyard and get one from a 70-76 Eldorado. At 
least
some of these years had a bracket which mounts flat on the upper radiator 
support
with just 2 drilled holes. Mounts up real clean and right where it should be
by the radiator cap.

Not factory, but GM and san-o-tary
cf

------------------------------

From: Chris Fair <ChrisFair@fairisaac.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 00:47:02 -0300
Subject: Overfill Bottlte 

Tom, 
Might I suggest a concentrated solution of pine sol? At full strength, over 
night.
Then rinse. Just a guess, but if it will take paint off a carb, it might help
with your stain. Also shouldn't hurt the plastic.
cf

------------------------------

From: WMACHINES@aol.com
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 01:04:53 -0300
Subject: Re: Water Wetter 

Well thats odd, my 455 was running 200 degrees all the time until
I added the water wetter.  now the car runs 190.  Now i live in 
Michigan and did the Woodward Street Cruise, and it was bumper
to bumper traffic and the car never went over 190.  Sorry that it
did not work for you.  Also to mention the temp was 86 degrees
that day.

W MACHINES

------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 01:46:54 -0300
Subject: Re:  Other Newsgroups 

Unfortunately, I have a non-Olds newsgroup request as well.  My husband is
buying a '66 Ch*vy 3/4 ton pickup with alot of nice options, but we need to
find a source of information for him.  Come on guys, I'm a G*I*R*L with 2
nice Olds, I cant help it if he's a F**d man  - at least I convinced him he
should buy a GM product........

Thanks for any & all assistance.


>
>
Sincerely


Lisa Madsen

Heavy Metal Forever - '67 Delta 88 & '72 Vista Cruiser

Please E-Mail me at-----:  Lisa@hotglass.com

My Web-Page-----:  http://exo.com/~jht/olds/lisa.htm

------------------------------

From: "Dal Allan" <dal_allan@mcimail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 01:37:48 -0300
Subject: DOT_5_conversion 

Hi Greg,

I've done a couple of cars so far, and my Avanti came from the factory with 
Dot 5. When the GS needs a brake job it will get the full treatment also, 
the Olds was done a couple of years ago.

The way to clean the lines is flush with isopropyl alcohol (a gallon of the 
stuff is cheap, so feel free to use plenty of it) and take your time drying 
out by blowing them with compressed air. You don't want to leave any alcohol 
in the lines because it represents a water source which defeats the purpose 
of using Dot 5 in the first place. Use all new hoses. 

I understand you can get into trouble if there is hydraulic fluid residue 
left in the lines or the cylinders. DOT 3 tends to coagulate and supposedly 
causes brake loss because of cylinder failure (from corrosion because of 
water residue?). Can't talk from experience as I've always gone for the full 
clean, so this could be an urban myth. 

My 67's convertible top used brake fluid and when the motor had to be 
replaced recently there was crud in the reservoir, a gummy deposit on the 
walls and the fluid was pitch black. GM switched over to transmission fluid 
in 68 and some factories did it in 67. The lines themselves were clean, only 
where the hydraulic fluid was in contact with metal did there appear any 
residue, it may have been caused by oxidation. 

You can't assume that because you collapse the wheel cylinders you get all 
the DOT 3 out, there are lots of places it gathers. You are better off to 
replace with rebuilt or new ones, same with calipers. 

You could punt and not replace the cylinders but brakes are pretty much all 
you've got to stop 3,500 pounds of energy barreling along at high speed. 

I lost my brakes at the top of the Sierras one year and by the time the car 
stopped we were practically in Reno. This is one experience you really do 
not want to encounter. If it was going to happen it could not have been in a 
better place, a lightly traveled freeway with no red lights and no yahoos. 

We pulled off at the first exit where there were facilities and my wife 
asked why. When I told her we'd lost the brakes at the top of Donner Pass, 
just after pulling out of the rest area, she freaked out. 

If you don't feel up to a DOT 5 replacement, go with DOT 4, it is compatible 
and supposedly is a lot better than DOT 3. Don't know why, just what I've 
been told. 

The cars are used regularly, from 1,500-3,500 miles/year, but is not enough 
to prevent cylinder corrosion and the like from regular fluid. None of them 
have suffered from corrosion or any other problems, though you can look 
forward to finding a couple of leaks with DOT 5. One of the cars needed a 
new master cylinder, and the first Delco was actually porous enough to let 
the DOT 5 bleed through. 

Dal

------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 01:52:15 -0300
Subject: Re: '70 SX Convertible 

Greg - I'll be glad to phone for you if your interested.  Its (almost) local
for me.  Izzo sounds familiar, maybe he's part of our So Cal Olds Chapter

I'll try tomorrow & post the result(s).


>
>
>
Sincerely


Lisa Madsen

Heavy Metal Forever - '67 Delta 88 & '72 Vista Cruiser

Please E-Mail me at-----:  Lisa@hotglass.com

My Web-Page-----:  http://exo.com/~jht/olds/lisa.htm

------------------------------

From: spud@kudonet.com (Spud)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 02:12:28 -0300
Subject: Coils (was Re: Condensors (Was: Thanks Folks)) 

>Another question to toss out here: So the coil fires when the magnetic
>field collapses when the primary shuts off. Does it not also do something
>similar when the field sets up (i.e. when the primary is switched _on_)?
>In other words, I thought from what I learned years ago that the pulse 
>produced in the secondary which fires the plugs is caused by changes in
>the magnetic field, either "on" or "off". Details?
>
>Andrew C. Green

I'm not real clear on your question, but I'll take a stab at it.  If I read
you right, you're asking, "why doesn't the coil discharge into the plugs at
charge up?"

The reason is the mechanical timing of the rotor under the distributor cap.
In between the posts, there's no completed electrical circuit in the
secondary and this is the place/time the coil charges up.  By the time the
rotor makes it to a post, the points have already started opening.  Once a
post is met, the points are fully open and the electrical path through the
wires and plugs to ground is established (or, rather quickly so, anyway).

I don't think of the magnetic field as ever "OFF" while the car is running.
Only at one state of flux content or another, unless the ignition switch is
off.  You're right, the pulse in the secondary is caused by a change in the
magnetic field.  Rather than being "OFF," though, it's collapsing.

Think of the coil charging up like a ballon you blow air into.  Think of the
coil discharging as letting the air out real fast.  But before the ballon is
ever completely empty, you start blowing it up again.  Ad nauseum.

Helpful or not?


Spud     "Fart proudly."
'86 FXST   --Benjamin Franklin
'73 Delta 88
'79 LeBaron

------------------------------

From: spud@kudonet.com (Spud)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 02:12:22 -0300
Subject: Re: Condensors, Was: Thanks Folks 

>Spud wrote:
>> 
>> > DC voltage cannot be step up through a transformer alone (which is 
>> > what the coil is).
>> 
>> Not so...
>
>I disagree.  Hook up you 12v battery to the primary of your coil and 
>measure the output.  Unless you're REAL quick and can get a meter on it 
>in the first couple of time constants, you measure zero.  But in the 
>charge/discharge cycle of an ignition circuit, we not exactly talking DC, 
>are we?  More like low frequency.

If we were only talking about charging the coil up, sure.  But we're not.
We're talking about a fast charge and a faster discharge.

>> Since the battery is not connected to the primary of the coil during
>> discharge, the voltage on the primary can increase uncontrollably...
>
>In a perfect world.

In the real world, too.  Though, there are also real world controls placed
on the coil's discharge by way of impedances, namely spark gaps, plug
wires...  There's a difference between controls and limits.  In an auto
ignition system, control is designed in.

This same effect can be found in simple boost type dc power supplies.  I
know of a case where the self imnductance of a simple soelnoid, switched not
unlike an auto ignition system, produced 300 Vdc from as 48 Vdc source.
That's an effect of controlling the charge/discharge cycles and that
otherwise uncontrolled voltage incarease in the solenoid.

>> So, the condensor moderates the jump in voltage on the primary of the 
>> coil and shunts excess current to ground, keeping the points from 
>> burning up as fast.
>
>Agreed.  Certainly the cap effects the output pulse but I'd still 
>maintain the capacitor's role in an LC circuit is more than "spark 
>supression"  

I was talking about the voltage on the primary, not the output pulse.  It
will have some effect on the output pulse only by reflection into the
secondary.  IMO, he fact that there is an RLC circuit and an associated set
of time constants is more coincidental than anything else.  However, this is
not to say such things weren't considered in coming up with the design of an
ignition system.

As an experiment, I replaced the condensor with a large capacitor; something
like 10,000 uF.  The car wouldn't start and I guessed that this was caused
by pushing the time constant for the charging circuit into the operating
range of the ignition system.

>STAY TUNED FOR OUR NEXT EXCITING DISCUSSION:
>
>    Transconductance in Vacuum Tubes and How They Can Lower Your E.T.

Followed by an invigorating look at the New York Times Best Seller,
Ballistic Electrons: Bad as They Want to be.

>-- 
>Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
>     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
>     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/



Spud     "Fart proudly."
'86 FXST   --Benjamin Franklin
'73 Delta 88
'79 LeBaron

------------------------------

From: Bill Gochenour <billg@sjuvm.stjohns.edu>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 04:55:07 -0300
Subject: Re: Overfill bottle

Tom Lentz wrote:
> 
>      The radiator overflow bottle on my '84 H/O is downright nasty looking
>      compared to the rest of the nice clean engine.  I've removed it and
>      scrubbed as best I can (it's hard to get inside there) but it didn't
>      help much.  The plastic is stained on the inside pretty badly.  Does
>      anyone know of a "resto tip" to help save this thing?
> 
>      What would happen if I filled it with a bleach/water solution and let
>      it soak overnight?  Any chance the bleach would damage the plastic?
>      I'd guess not since the bleach is *in* a plastic jug already.
> 
>      Thanks!
> 
>      Tom L.

Buy a new one........their about $8.00, available at any GM dealer ! I 
know, just put one in each of my olds. You'll waste your time trying to 
clean it, and when your done......it'll still look dirty.
 

- -- 

Bill !                                         _           _       ___
                                             /  |        /  |    /  _  \
1983 Hurst/Olds 15th Aniversary Edition    /    |      /    |   |_|   | |
1986 442 The Perfect "10"                /  / | |_   /  / | |_      /  /
1993 Chevrolet Lumina Z-34              |_____   _| |_____   _|   /  /__
                                              |_|         |_|   |_______|
          
               Visit http://yogi-bear.stjohns.edu/~toychest

------------------------------

From: Esko Ilola <esko.ilola@tele.telebox.fi>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 03:21:15 -0300
Subject: RE: Overfill bottle

The inside can be cleaned by putting sand and
some non-foaming washing agent into it. Dish-
washer agent is likely to do it well.

Once you have put the sand and the soap and the
water into the bottle, give it a good shake.
Keep shaking until fully clean. You will see
that some spoonfuls of sand is much easier to
remove than the stains.

If the stains are still there, give the bottle
another sand-shake with some acid. Any domestic
acid like vinegar works fine. This is done to 
remove
any remaining chalk-stains. Don't use the battery
acid as it will corrode your bottle.

CAUTION: If the bottle has aluminium or glass
parts inside, those should be removed beforehand.

Hope this method cleans your bottle. If not
you should put your bucks into a new one. I hope
that you can get one because the stains are
guite often, how would I say, permanent.
- --
**********************************************
* Esko Ilola                                 *
* Email esko.ilola@tele.telebox.fi           *
* X400  G=esko S=ilola O=tele A=mailnet C=fi *
* Tel.  +358 2040 3439                       *
* Mail  Ukonkivenpolku 7B5                   *
*       01610 VANTAA                         *
*       FINLAND                              *
**********************************************
* Oldsmobile 98  1964  4D HT                 *
**********************************************

------------------------------

From: "Peg O'Connor" <peg@grove.ufl.EDU>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 04:00:03 -0300
Subject: Re: Oil Debate -Reply

[snip]
> when the temp is over 90 to use 20w50.  Oops!  So anyway, Peg, my
> common sense is telling me that if I switch from 10w40 to 20w50 after all
> these years, that my oil pump is gonna burn up on me from suddenly
> having to pump that thicker oil.  Of course, I'm not sure how an oil pump
> works, so I may be wrong...  Anyone?

That shouldn't happen; an oil pump isn't like a muscle, which atrophies
with underuse.  It will have to work more because of the increased
viscosity, but I wouldn't think it would collapse under the load.  Hmm...

------------------------------

From: "Peg O'Connor" <peg@grove.ufl.EDU>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 04:09:17 -0300
Subject: Re: Not My 455 (oil)

> For people who have made this change, is it advisable to change back to
> 10-40 in the winter or is 20-50 ok for winter as well?

Well, I use it year-round, but I live in sunny, humid, hot, sticky
Florida.  Winters down here are laughable.  Probably different where there
are *real* winters.  ;)

------------------------------

From: Fernando Proietto <proietto@dow.on.doe.ca>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 18:51:22 -0300
Subject: Re: Not My 455 (oil)

Bryceman wrote:
> For people who have made this change, is it advisable to change back to
> 10-40 in the winter or is 20-50 ok for winter as well?
> 

Bryceman,
	I won't even consider using 10-40 in the winter let alone 20-50. 
There are much too thick. 10-30 is much better siuted for winter 
driving weather. 20-50 should only used in the summer and only when 
temp's are over 20 deg C. 
- -- 
Regards
Fernando Proietto

------------------------------

From: dcart@micro.ti.com (Donald B Cart)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 10:13:23 -0300
Subject: Re: '70 SX Convertible 

Lisa, I'd be interested in what you find out about the '70 SX too.

What's the differences between the SX and 442 ? I know the hardtop body
styles are different, but this should not matter for convertibles, and
the SX has a 2 BBL option.  Are the suspensions the same ?

Thanks,
Don 

- ----- Begin Included Message -----


Greg - I'll be glad to phone for you if your interested.  Its (almost) local
for me.  Izzo sounds familiar, maybe he's part of our So Cal Olds Chapter

I'll try tomorrow & post the result(s).


>
>
>
Sincerely


Lisa Madsen

Heavy Metal Forever - '67 Delta 88 & '72 Vista Cruiser

Please E-Mail me at-----:  Lisa@hotglass.com

My Web-Page-----:  http://exo.com/~jht/olds/lisa.htm

- ----- End Included Message -----

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:51:46 -0300
Subject: Re: Condensors, Was: Thanks Folks

The Reader's Digest Condensed version:

MIKE: 
> DC voltage cannot be step up through a transformer alone.

SPUD: 
> Not so...

MIKE: 
> I disagree.  

SPUD: 
> If we were only talking about charging the coil up, sure.  

MIKE: 
Which is what I was referring to.

SPUD: 
> We're talking about a fast charge and a faster discharge.

MIKE: 
In the 2KHz to maybe 12KHz (PRF) range, yes, we are.

SPUD: 
> Since the battery is not connected to the primary of the coil during
> discharge, the voltage on the primary can increase uncontrollably...

MIKE:
> In a perfect world. 
SPUD:
> In the real world, too.  Though, there are also real world controls placed
> on the coil's discharge by way of impedances, namely spark gaps, plug
> wires...  There's a difference between controls and limits.  In an auto
> ignition system, control is designed in.

MIKE:
> Agreed.  Certainly the cap effects the output pulse but I'd still
> maintain the capacitor's role in an LC circuit is more than "spark
> supression"

SPUD: 
> IMO, he fact that there is an RLC circuit and an associated set of time 
constants 
> is more coincidental than anything else.  However, this is not to say such 
things 
> weren't considered in coming up with the design of an ignition system.

MIKE:
Hmmmm... OK.  Though I'm pretty sure the internal resistance of the coil and 
other 
"coincidental" factors WERE considered in the design.

SPUD:
> As an experiment, I replaced the condensor with a large capacitor; something
> like 10,000 uF.  The car wouldn't start and I guessed that this was caused
> by pushing the time constant for the charging circuit into the operating
> range of the ignition system.

MIKE:
No doubt.  BTW, got any data on what those suckers do measure?

SPUD:
> Followed by an invigorating look at the New York Times Best Seller,
> Ballistic Electrons: Bad as They Want to be.

MIKE:
Two thumbs up!  Four and a half ohms out of five!  (at 20% tolerance)

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 10:04:25 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Followup: Trunk Lamp and Strange Tabs on Back Seat 

>        I looked up the below mentioned info in the Fisher manual.  This 
>     retainer is different from the tabs on my Cutlass.  Mine are of an 
>     open frame construction, and are too flimsy to hold a buckle like the 
>     illustrated one can.  View B also indicates that the actual shoulder 
>     belt attaches to the center-most seat belt hold-down bolts.  The belt 
>     then drapes over the bench seat and over the shoulder of the front 
>     outboard occupants.

Oh, jeez, I'm lost. Are you saying the belt goes over the passenger's
left shoulder instead of the right? (Driver's right instead of left?)

>        Hey Andrew, I looked in the owner's manual, ass'y manual, Fisher 
>     Body manual, and the Olds shop manual.  No mention of them.  Thanks 
>     anyway.

Huh. For a company that documents every plastic wiring clip in my manual,
I don't know what to say. We've ruled out aftermarket gadgets, right?

>        You folks sure are doing some great hunting and suggesting on my 
>     behalf.  I think that it is very obscure, based on the fact that 
>     nobody has seen them before in this vintage of A-body convertible.  
>     
>     Brett Chaveriat                brett@actel.com 
>     Arlington Hts, IL

That's for sure. Y'know, you and I live in the same suburb; I really must
check this out sometime!

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 10:11:19 -0300
Subject: Re: Coils (was Re: Condensors (Was: Thanks Folks)) 

>I'm not real clear on your question, but I'll take a stab at it.  If I read
>you right, you're asking, "why doesn't the coil discharge into the plugs at
>charge up?"

Yes... or at least, _try_ to discharge, rotor position notwithstanding.

>[...] You're right, the pulse in the secondary is caused by a change in the
>magnetic field.  Rather than being "OFF," though, it's collapsing.
>
>Think of the coil charging up like a balloon you blow air into.  Think of the
>coil discharging as letting the air out real fast.

Right, and I was wondering whether the, uh, "inflation" of the coil would
also result in a big pulse out of the secondary, like the collapse or
deflation does. I think you answered that question as, "Yes, although that
pulse has nowhere to go," if I'm reading you right.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:28:36 -0300
Subject: Re: DOT_5_conversion 

Thanks for the Dot 5 experience!  Going to Dot 4 was exactly what I did on the 
'88 Cutlass.  Used a qt to basically flush out as much of the Dot 3 as 
possible.
I think there might be a brake fluid FAQ on the Internet.  Brake fluid is a  
pretty frequent topic on Usenet rec.auto.* groups.  Of course there are the 
claims on the bottle itself :).

David Brown          OCA #27978         (312) 702-9157
    Check out: www.442.com      www.oldsmobile.com
               FAQ version 2.0 due soon!

- ----------
If you don't feel up to a DOT 5 replacement, go with DOT 4, it is compatible 
and supposedly is a lot better than DOT 3. Don't know why, just what I've 
been told. 

Dal

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 10:15:26 -0300
Subject: RE: Overfill bottle 

>Once you have put the sand and the soap and the
>water into the bottle, give it a good shake.
>Keep shaking until fully clean. You will see
>that some spoonfuls of sand is much easier to
>remove than the stains.

I agree with Esko, although the last time I tried this I used
gravel -- bigger pieces. I had a bag of aquarium gravel lying
around which worked out nicely.

But the white plastic is easily stained, so if you can't bleach
it out, well...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Roger M. Borlase" <BORLASE@gordonc.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 11:38:22 -0300
Subject: Re: Not My 455 (oil) 

>Bryceman,
>	I won't even consider using 10-40 in the winter let alone 20-50. 
>There are much too thick. 10-30 is much better siuted for winter 
>driving weather. 20-50 should only used in the summer and only when 
>temp's are over 20 deg C. 

Well my owners manual for my '72 Cutlass wagon has 10-40 listed for 0 degress 
and warmer.  But I agree about 20W50.  It also depends where you live too.  I 
ran 5 w 30 since the temp would go to - 15 in winter.

------------------------------

From: tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 11:53:03 -0300
Subject: re: vw for sale

> Warning:  the car for sale is not an Olds, it's a VW.  My dad's.  Thought
> someone here might be interested in it (or know someone who is)  I put it at
> the bottom of this post, if you're not interested, don't read it.
> 
> For Sale: 1967 VW Bug.  

I hate to contribute to off-topic threads, so I'll keep this short.
The '67 bug is a nightmare to restore.  There are lots of body/trim/etc
pieces unique to the '67.  All the bug's from 5?-66 and 68-end are 
fairly interchangable, but the '67 is just out there by itself.
Consider this a resto tip for anyone thinking about getting the VW bug :)

If you just want a car to drive, it's a fine choice.  However with all
the restorers on the list I know someone is probably thinking it might
be fun to do a VW for a change.  It is, but not the '67 - at least not
if you want it to be a correct resto job.

I don't in any way mean this as a flame to whoever posted it.  I just 
wanted to share my knowledge from the school of hard knocks.  

- - Travis and the '69 olds 98 convertable aka "Tiny"

- --
Travis McWaters                           Transmission Products Division
tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com               DSC Communications Corporation

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:23:07 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Not My 455 (oil) 

I run 10w40 all year long in my 403 that will turn 185,000 Friday morning.  
It has run nothing but 10w40 (Pennz, Quaker & Mobil) since I bought it at 
68,000 miles in '86.  The last two years have seen over 20,000 go on the 
odometer.  Starts right away, good compression, good mileage, good power.  
It experiences Wisconsin and Illinois winters.  Easy acceleration the first 
five minutes or so.  Starting at -10 and -27F is interesting, but the oil 
pressure was at 60 in one second - quicker than after an oil change.  My 
two cents for what it is worth.

David Brown          OCA #27978         (312) 702-9157
    Check out: www.442.com      www.oldsmobile.com
               FAQ version 2.0 due soon!

- --------------
>Bryceman,
> I won't even consider using 10-40 in the winter let alone 20-50. 
>There are much too thick. 10-30 is much better siuted for winter 
>driving weather. 20-50 should only used in the summer and only when 
>temp's are over 20 deg C. 

Well my owners manual for my '72 Cutlass wagon has 10-40 listed for 0 degress 
and warmer.  But I agree about 20W50.  It also depends where you live too.  I 
ran 5 w 30 since the temp would go to - 15 in winter.

------------------------------

From: tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:16:10 -0300
Subject: re: plugs and racers picking the best equip

> Look at racing guys...  You don't see them using any special plug; 
> just regular plugs... don't you think they'd be using ... the special 
> plugs [if they were better]?

They may not be allowed to.  Many racing circuits place STRICT restrictions
on what kind of modifications you can make to your engine/body/chasis/etc.

My feeling about Duralube and Splitfires and other such "miracle" 
performance parts comes from their advertising.  If you watch much
late night TV you've probably seen the Duralube commercial where they
drain the oil and coolant out of a Duralube trated engine while it is
running.  Then to "top it off" they hose it down with a fire hose.  
No kidding you're hosing it down -- the engine would overheat without it.

They want you to think that if you put Duralube in your engine then
you can run it without coolant or oil too.  I'm willing to be that an
identical engine without Duralube would past the same test (those old
straight 6's are real beaters anyway).  Anyway, I guess it all comes 
back to this: "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is".

- - Travis and the 69 olds 98 convertable aka "Tiny"

- --
Travis McWaters                           Transmission Products Division
tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com               DSC Communications Corporation

------------------------------

From: Clay Pierce <zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:31:50 -0300
Subject: new subscriber

Hello all, 
I recently subscribed to the Olds list, and would like to introduce 
myself.  My name is Clayton Pierce.  I live in Greene County in 
eastern Tennessee about 4 miles from N. Carolina.  I attend East 
Tennessee State University, and work on campus with computers. 
I joined this list because I recently bought an older Oldsmobile.  So 
far, it seems to be the best, most reliable car that I have ever 
owned.  I paid $250 cash for my '74 Delta 88 with the 350 4V 
400 turbo tranny, and 65,000 original miles.  Occasionally I may also 
be posting questions for my friend Jason Belt.  He has an '83 Cutlass 
Supreme with a slightly built (cam, 4bbl. etc) 3.8l and an extremely 
built 350 turbo tranny. 

Clayton Pierce
zcwp11@access.east-tenn-st.edu
'74 Delta 88
'72 Merc. Marquis 429 4V
'80 Rover 3500 215ci V8 EFI
- --
"It is in vain to hope to please all alike.  
 Let a man stand with his face in what direction he will, 
 he must necessarily turn his back on one half of the world."
     
               George Dennison Prentice

                -------***++***-------
                      
                    Clayton Pierce
 home page at: http://members.tripod.com/~rovernut/
            zcwp11@access.east-tenn-st.edu
                    (423) 
638-2780                                                              
           
                -------***++***-------            

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:53:06 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Tach on '84 H/O 

This is from the FAQ.  Hope it helps.  If anyone has addition, corrections, 
suggestions, please send them.  Thanks!

David Brown          OCA #27978         (312) 702-9157
    Check out: www.442.com      www.oldsmobile.com
               FAQ version 2.0 due soon!

- ----- Tachometer Reads High -----
The irradic readings could be generated by the wires, coil, etc.  But 
this only occurs if the wire going to the distributor tach terminal 
comes in or near contact with a part of the ignition.

So here is my solution which has worked on 4 separate tachs: 2 79's, 1 
86, and 1 84.  On the back of the tach, there is a small pin/clip that 
is used to set the tach for either 6 cylinders or 8.  The clip makes a 
connection between a common center point and either a top or bottom 
point (depending on 6 or 8)  It seems that after so many years this 
connection becomes loose and gives the tach a false reading on not being 
set for either 6 or 8 cylinders.

So to fix this, remove the pin and use a small piece of sandpaper to 
clean any corrosion on the 'points'.  Once you remove the pin, you will 
see a small metal clip that has a slight bend in it to keep pressure on 
the two points (and electrically connect them).  Bend this slightly more 
to increase the pressure and this will solve your problem.  I tried 
soldering the two points, but fried the IC chip in one tach because I 
used to much heat.  (it is VERY close to the point connections!).   

> I tried soldering the two points, but fried the IC chip in one 
> tach because I used to much heat.  
A common problem when soldering.  A couple of things to help:

1) Use a "heat-sink".  Clip a good conductor of heat between the solder 
point and that which you seek to protect.  Hemostats or even a pair of 
vise-grips.  The idea is the larger surface will disipate the heat and 
not allow much of it to get to the components.

2) Don't use a LARGE soldering gun.  While it can be done the greater 
heat makes it easier to fry stuff.  Use a 35-50 watt soldering pencil.

3) Make sure the soldering pencil has had plenty of time to warm up.  
Trying to wait for it to heat up as you solder allows more time for heat 
to transfer to the components.  Touch the solder to the pencil.  When it 
melts easily, it ready.  Also a thin coating of melted solder on the tip 
"tins" it and will give you better heat transfer to the connection.

4) Make sure the wires, terminals, etc, are CLEAN.  Corrosion and other 
goo will prevent a good solder joint.  Use a wire brush or emery paper 
to 
clean them if necessary.

[ Thanks to Michael R. Frederick, OLDSPWR@aol.com for this information ]

------------------------------

From: "Gregory G. Kalkhoff" <gkalkhof@execpc.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 15:07:34 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Tach on '84 H/O

[ Thanks to Michael R. Frederick, OLDSPWR@aol.com for this information ]

HUH?

I never knew you were an X AOL user!!!!

Snake in the grass FAQ man!  (:

The Sparkerator


- -- 
Greg Kalkhoff                                      Driven Images
4217 W. Fond du Lac Ave.                http://cpeq.com/~edison3/dihome.html
Milwaukee, WI.  53216	
414-447-7500

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:04:41 -0300
Subject: re: plugs and racers picking the best equip 

>If you watch much
>late night TV you've probably seen the Duralube commercial where they
>drain the oil and coolant out of a Duralube trated engine while it is
>running.  Then to "top it off" they hose it down with a fire hose.  
>No kidding you're hosing it down -- the engine would overheat without it.

Actually this demo isn't all that rare; I saw another miracle additive
I'd never heard of advertised on TV where they did the same thing, this
time with what appeared to be an early-'80's Toyota Tercel. They had it
up on a lift, oil pan off, squirting a hose at the crankshaft as it idled.
When you get right down to it, water is a pretty good lubricant...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:15:55 -0300
Subject: Re: Redline Water Wetter: experience/sources?

Nick DiGiovanni wrote:
> 
> Since the cooling of a car is all dependent on how much and how fast 
> you can remove heat from the water, then I don't quite understand how 
> adding any ingredient to the water will in itself lower the temp by any 
> amount.  

By lowering the viscosity of the water, you reduce the "boundry layer" on 
the wetted surface aiding heat transfer.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: eric_b_buckner@non-hp-om.cv.hp.com
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:28:27 -0300
Subject: Re: Overfill Bottle

Item Subject: Overfill Bottle
     If you happen to be just using an overfill bottle for the track 
     consider this before drilling holes. A couple of zip-ties and a 
     plastic 16 oz soda bottle. Removable and recyclable. I just switch my 
     radiator caps and zip-tie the bottle to the frame near the side of the 
     radiator, then run the overflow tube to the bottle through the hole I 
     cut in the cap. Keeps the track officials off of my back(I guess they 
     don't like antifreeze on the strip). After running I just cut it off, 
     wash it out, and get five cents at the supermarket.
     My pennies worth...
     
     Eric Buckner
     '64 F-85 Deluxe
     Albany, OR

     


______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
Subject: Overfill Bottle
Author:  Non-HP-oldsmobile-owner (oldsmobile-owner@ccn.cs.dal.ca) at 
HP-Corvallis,shargw1
Date:    8/28/96 8:53 PM


     
For those of you who (like me) didn't get an overflow tank on your 60's 
oldses, 
may I suggest you go to the junkyard and get one from a 70-76 Eldorado. At 
least
some of these years had a bracket which mounts flat on the upper radiator 
suppor
t
with just 2 drilled holes. Mounts up real clean and right where it should be 
by the radiator cap.
     
Not factory, but GM and san-o-tary
cf
     

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:23:01 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Tach on '84 H/O

Gregory G. Kalkhoff wrote:
> 
> [Thanks to Michael R. Frederick, OLDSPWR@aol.com for this information]
> HUH?
> I never knew you were an X AOL user!!!!
> Snake in the grass FAQ man!  (:

That's the OTHER guy, doh-doh-head.

The 66 Toro and FAQster


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: eric_b_buckner@non-hp-om.cv.hp.com
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:20:00 -0300
Subject: 455+/Desicant update

Item Subject: cc:Mail Text
     Well guys I think I have foound an engine;
     '72 455 w/ th400 on board. It's been comp tested to 150 lbs and is 
     said to run well. It came from an 88, is it comparable to one out of a 
     Toro?
     Well my stock of Desicant packs is slowly rising. There are a few 
     types;
     1. the standard paper bag
     2. the standard plastic bag
     3. and the all powerfull Japanese made paper bag that is re-usable 
     after 16 hrs in an oven at 250 degrees. 
     I have nearly equal amounts of each. 
     Still waiting on those boxes!
     
     Eric Buckner
     '64 F-85 Deluxe
     Albany, OR

------------------------------

From: Blaine Sanders 5483 <BLAINES@strata3d.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:45:01 -0300
Subject: Re: Overfill Bottle -Reply 

Hey Eric, that's a great idea!  If you've got a show car with a new, clean
overflow bottle, zip-tie a temporary bottle in for when you're driving it. 
Then when you get to the show, remove the temporary bottle and put the
hose back in the real bottle.  That way, your new, clean overflow bottle
will always look that way -- new and clean!

>>> <eric_b_buckner@non-hp-om.cv.hp.com> 08/29/96 09:28am >>>
Item Subject: Overfill Bottle
     If you happen to be just using an overfill bottle for the track 
     consider this before drilling holes. A couple of zip-ties and a 
     plastic 16 oz soda bottle. Removable and recyclable. I just switch my 
     <snip>

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:48:22 -0300
Subject: Re: DRIVE BELTS 

Either Gates or Goodyear are tops in the industry.  The last time I had to 
replace a belt or hose, Goodyear's came with a lifetime replacement 
warranty.  Come to think of it, the Delta's lower radiator hose is 10 years 
old, upper is 5-6.  I'm going to replace them this fall.  It will be 
interesting to see what kind of inside deterioration is present.  Outside 
is fine, flexes fine.  Will make good backups though.

David Brown          OCA #27978         (312) 702-9157
    Check out: www.442.com      www.oldsmobile.com
               FAQ version 2.0 due soon!

- -------------
Does anyone know what brand of drive belts came on my 71 Delta Royale
from the factory?  I have heard many different suggestions: Gates, Goodyear, 
etc..   I need to replace the belts on my car and thought it would be nice to
get as close to original as possible.

Thank you.
Brad Ross  OCA#026076
1971 Delta Royale

------------------------------

From: jblair@exis.net (John T. Blair)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:55:25 -0300
Subject: Re: Condensors & coils 

I've been trying to stay out of this conversation, but have been 
reading it with interest.  However, there have been a lot of things
said that really aren't correct.  So finally, I can't stand it any
more.  So here is my 2 cents worth.


At 01:51 PM 8/29/96 -0300, oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca wrote:
>The Reader's Digest Condensed version:
>
>> MIKE: 
>> DC voltage cannot be step up through a transformer alone.
>
>> SPUD: 
>> Not so...
>

Mike is absolutle correct.  DC will only induce 1 spike across a
transformer when the power is applied.  To induce a voltage on the
output (seconday) of a transformer requires an AC flow.  Basic
Physics.  Moving a magnet across a coil of wire will induce an electron
flow.  What is happening in an AC circuit is that as the 
positive have of an AC signal flows in the primary it sets up a magnetic
field around the secondary windings.  This will produce 1
and only spike (its size, duration, and ringing are based on things 
like the RC time constants).  When the incoming AC signal starts to 
flow in reverse, it collapses the initial magnetic field across the 
secondary and again induces a spike.  Therefore, the output frequency of the
coil is the same as the input frequency.  Or if
you put a coil (transformer) on a typical 60Hz household circuit,
the output will be 60Hz also.

Cars were designed using a battery to supply electricity, a battery
supplies DC. only.  Since we can't excite the seconday of a coil enough, the
DC must be made to look like AC.  This is accomplished
by the points and the cam in the distributor.  It makes and  breakes
the 12V low voltage, low current; thus turning it into "pulsating"
DC.  There are extreme differences between an pure AC signal and a
DC signal.  A DC signal is very rich in noise as it is composed of
all odd harmonic of the fundimental frequency, (ie. for a 60 cycle
square wavy - plused DC - it consists of frequencies of 60, 180,
300, 420, ....).

>>
>> MIKE: 
>> In the 2KHz to maybe 12KHz (PRF) range, yes, we are.
>>

I don't think so.  If you are talking about a V8, it will fire all
8 spark plugs once every revolution.  If we have an engine running
at 6,000 rpm:

    8 pulses     6000 rev     1 min      (8) (6000)
    --------  x  -------   x  -----   =  ---------   = 800 pps
      rev         min         60 sec        60

where pps is pulses per second which in this case is cycles per second


>> SPUD: 
>> Since the battery is not connected to the primary of the coil
>> during discharge, the voltage on the primary can increase 
>> uncontrollably...
>

Wrong.

 If this were the case, we'd never have to pay for electricity.  The
voltagae on the input is supplied by the battery.  In the steady state 
analysis of this, then the voltage applied to the primary of the coil 
can't exceed that of the battery or 12V.

 Secondly, the battery is connected to the coil during discharge.
The circuit has voltage comming from the battery to the coil's primary
input side (which to DC is just a long piece of wire).  The primary's
output side goes to the points and condenser.  When the points are 
open there is NO ground on the coil's primary side and the condenser 
is allowed to charge.  When the points are closed, it **shorts** out the
primary's output (to ground).  This is one of the main reasons for
the ballast resistor.  It limits the amount of current that the coil
is allowed to draw.  If it weren't for this resistor, and you had the
ignition switch in the "run" position and the points happened to be
closed, you would drain the battery quite fast (like leaving the lights on)
and or since the coil presents basically zero resistance
to DC either the coil's primary or the wiring harness would burn up.

>> MIKE:
>> In a perfect world. 

>> SPUD:
>> In the real world, too.  Though, there are also real world controls
>> placed on the coil's discharge by way of impedances, namely spark 
>> gaps, plug wires...  There's a difference between controls and 
>> limits.  In an auto ignition system, control is designed in.
>
>> MIKE:
>> Agreed.  Certainly the cap effects the output pulse but I'd still
>> maintain the capacitor's role in an LC circuit is more than "spark
>> supression"
>

Where are the points and the condenser?  They are on the primary side
of the coil, NOT the seconday side.  So the "discharge" to the plugs, 
etc. is basically irrevelatent.

>> SPUD: 
>> IMO, he fact that there is an RLC circuit and an associated set of 
>> time constants is more coincidental than anything else.  However,
>> this is not to say such things weren't considered in coming up with 
>> the design of an ignition system.

>> MIKE:
>> Hmmmm... OK.  Though I'm pretty sure the internal resistance of the
>> coil and other "coincidental" factors WERE considered in the 
>> design.

>> SPUD:
>> As an experiment, I replaced the condensor with a large capacitor; 
>> something like 10,000 uF.  The car wouldn't start and I guessed 
>> that this was caused by pushing the time constant for the charging 
>> circuit into the operating range of the ignition system.


You are both in the ball park here talking about the time constant.
Only you are looking at the seconday side. No condenser (if you
exclude the spark pulg).

The explain SPUD's experiment is the "Charge time"  (time constant)
not the discharge time.  The charge time was much longer that the time
between required pulses to allow current to the spark plugs.  So in
addition to being "out of time" the magnetic field was never allowed 
to build and collapse to induce enough voltage at the seconday to fire 
the plugs.

Now we are back to the capacitor (condenser).  It does have 2 basic
jobs.
  1.  The charging time constant.  The cap. hold the voltage charge
      while the distributor turns to the point where the spark needs 
      to go (on a V8, less than 1/8 turn on dist shaft).
  2.  It passes the AC component of the "pulsed" DC to ground.
      Remember that stuff about the odd harmonics.  This also help
      reduce Electro Magnetic Interferance (EMI).

Hope this sheds a little more light on the subject.

John

John T. Blair  WA4OHZ          email:  jblair@exis.net
Va. Beach, Va                  Phone:  (757) 495-8229

48 TR1800    48 #4 Midget  65 Morgan 4/4 Series V
     75 Bricklin SV1   77 Spitfire

The one with the most toys, wins!

------------------------------

From: eric_b_buckner@non-hp-om.cv.hp.com
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:48:34 -0300
Subject: After Market Tach on '64 F-85

Item Subject: cc:Mail Text
     Maybe I could get a little help with this one
     Between 5 and 6 grand my tach bounces/fluctuates about 200/300 RPM. 
     What could be causing this? I at first assumed that my clutch was 
     slipping but I don't hear any change in engine tone (although at that 
     RPM hearing anything is pretty difficult). Also on long (2 hour) trips 
     it starts doing the same at around 3/4 grand. The car is very steady 
     in so much as it's not jumping to and from speeds. 
     Thanks for any advice/tips.
     
     Eric Buckner
     '64 F-85 Deluxe
     Albany, OR

------------------------------

From: Frank Boerger <103454.317@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:13:23 -0300
Subject: FW: Redline Water Wetter: experience/sources?

 > Since the cooling of a car is all dependent on how much and how fast 
> you can remove heat from the water, then I don't quite understand how 
> adding any ingredient to the water will in itself lower the temp by any 
> amount.  

>By lowering the viscosity of the water, you reduce the "boundry layer" on 
>the wetted surface aiding heat transfer.

>The 66 Toro and Mike

Is it necessarily a question of viscosity ?  If that were the case, we would
just want to use a fluid that was "thin" .  Or is it, as a compound (water and
water-wetter), raising the specific heat of the fluid ?  I was wondering if it
is a combination of :

	A: serving as a emulsifier/surfactant which reduces the tendency of
the water/glycol or water alone to percolate small bubbles which 	would
insulate the fluid from the heat source and from the radiator 	surface, 
thereby
reducing the ability of the fluid to transfer heat ...

	...and...
	
	B: raising the specific heat, or heat carrying ability of the fluid.

	We all know that 140 F air will not scald, but 140 F water
will...because the water has a higher specific heat.  

	Or am I all "wet"

	I have been "filled with confusement" over the discussions that coolant
can travel too fast through a system, and thereby reduce the amount of heat 
that
can be removed over a unit of time (contribute to overheating ).  Does that 
mean
that on a hot day, the fan on my home air conditioning condenser should be
slowed down, so there would be more "time" for the heat to be absorbed by the
passing air ?  If my skin is wet, the faster I travel through the air, the
cooler it feels, because a larger quantity of air molecules can absorb the heat
then present in the water over a given unit of time.  I guess I could 
understand
that an engine could be overheating because the water pump was not delivering a
sufficient flow to the radiator, thereby not allowing enough heat to be
removed...but how could a flow be too great ?  If one had doulbe the flow, then
each unit of coolant need only absorb and give up half the heat at a "normal"
flow rate...

Like I say...I am filled with confusement.

Frank Boerger
'68 Cutlass convertible/'68 coupe for parts


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: "Gregory G. Kalkhoff" <gkalkhof@execpc.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:25:48 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Tach on '84 H/O

Mike Frederick wrote:
> 
> Gregory G. Kalkhoff wrote:
> >
> > [Thanks to Michael R. Frederick, OLDSPWR@aol.com for this information]
> > HUH?
> > I never knew you were an X AOL user!!!!
> > Snake in the grass FAQ man!  (:
> 
> That's the OTHER guy, doh-doh-head.
> 
> The 66 Toro and FAQster

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooppppppps 

AAAARRRGGGGGHHHHH      I read too fast.


Doh Doh

- -- 
Greg Kalkhoff                                      Driven Images
4217 W. Fond du Lac Ave.                
http://cpeq.com/~edison3/dihome.html
Milwaukee, WI.  53216	
414-447-7500

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 17:27:47 -0300
Subject: Re: Condensors & coils

John T. Blair wrote:
> 
> I've been trying to stay out of this conversation, 

Hey, the more the merrier...

> >> MIKE:
> >> In the 2KHz to maybe 12KHz (PRF) range, yes, we are.
> 
> I don't think so.  If you are talking about a V8, it will fire all
> 8 spark plugs once every revolution.  If we have an engine running
> at 6,000 rpm:
> 
>     8 pulses     6000 rev     1 min      (8) (6000)
>     --------  x  -------   x  -----   =  ---------   = 800 pps
>       rev         min         60 sec        60
> 
> where pps is pulses per second which in this case is cycles per second

Yeah, shooting from the hip again. (where's that calculator?)  But I 
believe that's 4 plugs fire once every revolution in a 4-cycle as the 
cam and distributer turn at 1/2 the crankshaft's rpm.

> The explain SPUD's experiment is the "Charge time"  (time constant)
> not the discharge time.  The charge time was much longer that the time
> between required pulses to allow current to the spark plugs.

Point ;) taken.

> Hope this sheds a little more light on the subject.

Light?  Would that be wave or particle theory?

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 17:42:53 -0300
Subject: Re: FW: Redline Water Wetter: experience/sources?

Frank Boerger wrote:
> 
> Is it necessarily a question of viscosity ?  

Not *only* viscosity.   Simple answer to a simple question.

> I was wondering if it is a combination of :
>         A: serving as a emulsifier/surfactant ...
>         B: raising the specific heat ...

Could well be.  

> Or am I all "wet"

Dunno.  Is it raining?
 
> I have been "filled with confusement" over the discussions that coolant
> can travel too fast through a system...

Me too.  (List Note: this is not simply a "Me too" post)

> Does that mean that on a hot day, the fan on my home air conditioning 
> condenser should be slowed down...

HA!  Good point.

> ...but how could a flow be too great?

Like you, I have no idea.

NEXT!

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:37:46 -0300
Subject: Re: FAQ Suggestion (differentials) 

This is a great idea.  The Super Tuning article had a lot of good info in 
it.  Can't wait for the next one.  I'll start with that.  I know Bob 
Handren, Nick DiGiovanni, Joe Padavano, Luke, Bruce D. Brumm, and Bob Barry 
have quite a bit of experience and knowledge of diffs.  Time permitting?

Maybe a list of ring gear sizes, # of ring gear bolts, along with # of 
cover bolts, year, application(s).  Break these into different size 
carriers, gear ratios that fit in/were used in each.  I have some info in 
the FAQ from postings, but that's it.

What peices it takes to convert a one legger to posi (other than swapping 
the whole thing out :)).

David Brown          OCA #27978         (312) 702-9157
    Check out: www.442.com      www.oldsmobile.com
               FAQ version 2.0 due mid Sept!

- ----------------
Since I have been searching around for info on differentials,  I think
that there should be a sectionin the FAQ about them.  What do you think?
 Who out therre knows abouth these odd ball Olds rear ends.

It seems as though Olds went ape sh-- crazy in 68, 69, and 70.  They
decided to build their own thing.  i.e. not standard and won't
interchange with a thing.

The Bryceman page had an update to the tech section about supertuning
68, 69, and 70 W-machines and there was some info in there about axles
and differentials.  It sounded like Olds had different axles in 68 and
69.  Different number of splines and different diameters.

Just my thoughts.  What do yall think.

John Harris 69 442

------------------------------

From: Jeffrey.Easton@add.ssw.abbott.com
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 15:16:55 -0300 
Subject: Re: FW: Bucket Seat Q's

From: Frank Boerger <103454.317@CompuServe.COM>

>>You need to drill the inner holes in the floor (near the tunnel) as the
bench
>>cars didnt have them drilled.

>Rear holes only ??

I cant recall.  Its been a few years since I had the car and I wasnt paying
much attention to the seats at the time, as I was mainly interested in
installing seat belts that the previous dope had removed.  I do remember
it being "obvious looking" that the car had originally been a bench seat car.

>   .... If I did not have the services of a good
>weld shop, or did not want to flame the carpeting, I would consider putting
the
>year one brackets down with a barage of stainless, 1/4" pop rivets, or
similar
>fasteners.  (Boy, I'm gonna hear it from the purists !!)

Hmm.  Might be interesting in a crash.  I cant imagine pop rivets holding
you (and the seat) in place very well.

- -Jeff
jeffrey.easton@add.ssw.abbott.com

1970 442  4-Speed

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:51:28 -0300
Subject: Re: DRIVE BELTS 

>Come to think of it, the Delta's lower radiator hose is 10 years 
>old, upper is 5-6.  I'm going to replace them this fall.  It will be 
>interesting to see what kind of inside deterioration is present.  Outside 
>is fine, flexes fine.

Well, yeah, hoses are irritating in that they wear from the inside out,
so unless you know when they were installed, it's hard to tell from just
looking at them whether they're shot or not. My best guess is when I try
and poke or squeeze the hose, a mushy one will flex a lot, but only in the
immediate area you're pressing on, whereas a new hose will feel a bit
firmer and deflect over a wider area when you squeeze it at one point.
Comparing the feel of a new one with a known worn-out one is useful.
(I wish they had date codes, like plug wires do.)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Nick DiGiovanni <ndigiova@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 15:13:33 -0300
Subject: Re: Redline Water Wetter and Viscosity Table 

At 04:15 PM 8/29/96 -0300, you wrote:

>By lowering the viscosity of the water, you reduce the "boundry layer" on 
>the wetted surface aiding heat transfer.
>
>The 66 Toro and Mike

I know that in my area (Vancouver coast) the water is as "thin" as it gets
compared to all other parts of the globe.  It is ultra-pure (< 4 ppm
calcium/Magnesium, < 4 ppm bicarbonate alkalinity, < 1 ppb iron etc).
Perhaps in other areas were there is high hardness and alkalinity then you
may get this "boundry layer and need a separate compound to create this
wetted surface.  However, ethylene glycol is a surface active agent in
itself (including some corrosion inhibitors) and works by aligning it's
polar end on to the metal surface and it's non-polar end towards the water.
This natural alignment tendency would create a close contact heat transfer
surface.

I have a feeling that this product may help only in certain water quality
areas. I was at our Olds club meeting yesterday and brought up this product.
3 people have tried it (following the directions exactly) and not one of
them noticed any difference in temperature.  On the other hand, there are a
some people here on the list that have used it and do notice a difference
(and who am I to disagree ;')

On a side note, since we were on the topic of viscosity and oils lately,
here is a chart out of one of my Chemistry texts:

VISCOSITY Data at -18 C(-64 F) and 99 C(210 F) for the SAE Method of Rating
Motor Oils

                               VISCOSITY (SUS)*
                -18 C (-64 F)           99 C (210 F)
MOTOR OIL       Min.    Max.            Min.    Max.
5W                      4,000           39	
10W             6,000   12,000          39	
20W             12,000  48,000          39	
20                                      45      58
30                                      58      70
40                                      70      85
50                                      85      110

*SUS is the Saybolt Universal Second, which is the time in seconds required
for 60 ml of oil to empty out of the cup in a Saybolt viscometer through a
carefully specified capillary opening.  Note the extremely shortened time
for the outflowing of the hotter oil.

Nick DiGiovanni
Port Coquitlam, B.C.
1970 4-4-2 - "Snarls Softly and Carries a Big Kick"

------------------------------

From: Frank Boerger <103454.317@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:29:22 -0300
Subject: FW: FW: Bucket Seat Q's

On 8/29/96, Jeff wrote:


>I cant recall.  Its been a few years since I had the car and I wasnt paying
>much attention to the seats at the time, as I was mainly interested in
>installing seat belts that the previous dope had removed.  I do remember
>it being "obvious looking" that the car had originally been a bench seat car.

>Hmm.  Might be interesting in a crash.  I cant imagine pop rivets holding
>you (and the seat) in place very well.

Well, if you think 5/16" stainless steel pop rivets ( the kind they assemple
light plane spars with, etc.) can have holding problems, just wait your buddy
makes an overheated AC arc weld on those 30 year old, .032" thick, used floor
pans !

No flame here, but if you always wear your seat belt (which are attached to the
floor pan cross braces), the rivets would only have to hold the weight of the
seat !  In an application like this, one of course would use the proper
stainless backing washers, high-tensile rivets...etc....all the recommended
hardware.

If you want to get a bit of a fright, take a look under that carpet at the 
small
number of spot welds that GM depended on to hold the seat !! Scarry !

Frank Boerger
'68 convertible/'68 coupe for parts

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 09:26:39 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: FW: Redline Water Wetter: experience/sources? 

     I can understand the "too fast" point in theory when taken to 
     extremes, but I don't think a car's water pump can pump fast enough to 
     make a difference.
     
     Imagine if the coolant went through the radiator tubes at 100mph, it 
     might get a whole 1 degree cooler by the time it got to the radiator 
     outlet.  You have to let it sit there for long enough to cool down.
     
     I don't think the fan analogy is correct.  It's not a question of too 
     much air flow, but too much coolant flow.  Yes, if you flow more air 
     too fast each air mollecule won't absorb as much heat but you have 
     many more air mollecules going past to make up for it.  We really 
     don't care too much what temperature the air coming out the backside 
     of our radiator is.  If the freon went through the condenser in your 
     example way too fast, when it came out the other side it might not be 
     more than a degree or two cooler than when it went in.  Thus when it 
     expands your AC unit will get the air a whole 1 or 2 degrees cooler 
     than ambient air.


______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
Subject: Re: FW: Redline Water Wetter: experience/sources?
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    8/29/96 11:49 AM
     
> Does that mean that on a hot day, the fan on my home air conditioning 
> condenser should be slowed down...
     
HA!  Good point.
     
> ...but how could a flow be too great?
     
Like you, I have no idea.

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:37:21 -0300
Subject: Re: Redline Water Wetter and Viscosity Table

Nick DiGiovanni wrote:
> 
> Perhaps in other areas were there is high hardness and alkalinity then 
> you may get this "boundry layer...

No so.  The boundry layer exists whenever a fluid, be it air or water, 
flows over a solid.  Molecules on the surface of the solid tend to move 
slowly while molecules further away move faster.  No doubt, in your area, 
you have noticed that ice flows slower at a riverbank than it does in the 
center of the river.  (Yes, I know there not exactly the same).  How 
"thick" this boundry layer is depends on how viscious the fluid is.

Ask Bernoulli.

One reason to use a "wetting" agent, is to reduce the thickness of the 
boundry, move the stuff close to the surface a little faster, and aid 
heat transfer.

If it works or not for an individual car depends on a whole lot of 
variables, only one of which we are considering here, so it's not 
suprising that you hear mixed results.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Bill.Shinko@po.cle.ab.com (Bill Shinko)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:49:49 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: FW: Redline Water Wetter: experience/sources?

     I haven't been following this thread, but I did notice your question 
     as to "...but how could a flow be too great?"  Just did some reading 
     about this recently, so if you don't mind, here's my 2 cents:
     
     Heat transfer is in part a function of the specific heat of a 
     substance.  It takes a certain amount of _time_ to heat up something, 
     and the rate at which the temperature of a substance rises is 
     determined by (in part) its specific heat.  Different substances have 
     different specific heats, and, all other things being equal, 
     experience different rates of temperature rise when exposed to a heat 
     source.
     
     As in the case of passing your hand through a candle flame, your hand 
     gets hot because it absorbs heat from the flame.  Pass your hand fast, 
     and you're safe.  Too slow, and it cooks because too much heat was 
     transferred.
     
     In a cooling system, if the fluid enters and leaves the radiator too 
     fast, it won't spend enough time giving up heat, and will retain more 
     than it should - its exit temp will be higher.  Under certain 
     conditions (probably seldom encountered in normal driving), too fast 
     an airflow can do the same thing.  The point is that the coolant gets 
     routed back to the engine before it's had a chance to cool.
     
     An interesting note: the rate of airflow for proper cooling of an 
     aircraft engine (i.e., heat tranfer from the radiator) was a 
     considerable problem when WWII aircraft started flying at more than 
     400 miles per hour.  In fact, the ductwork for the P-51 had to be 
     designed to slow the air down so it would pass through the radiator 
     for a longer period of time, absorbing more heat.
     
     
     Bill
     '41 Olds 98
     '85 Cutlass Ciera
     
     
     
     Bill.Shinko@ab.com


______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
Subject: Re: FW: Redline Water Wetter: experience/sources?
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at Internet
Date:    8/29/96 5:42 PM


Frank Boerger wrote:
> 
> Is it necessarily a question of viscosity ?  
     
Not *only* viscosity.   Simple answer to a simple question.
     
> I was wondering if it is a combination of :
>         A: serving as a emulsifier/surfactant ... 
>         B: raising the specific heat ...
     
Could well be.  
     
> Or am I all "wet"
     
Dunno.  Is it raining?
     
> I have been "filled with confusement" over the discussions that coolant 
> can travel too fast through a system...
     
Me too.  (List Note: this is not simply a "Me too" post)
     
> Does that mean that on a hot day, the fan on my home air conditioning 
> condenser should be slowed down...
     
HA!  Good point.
     
> ...but how could a flow be too great?
     
Like you, I have no idea.
     
NEXT!
     
The 66 Toro and Mike
     
     
- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication 
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/
     
     

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 20:04:04 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: FW: Redline Water Wetter: experience/sources?

Tom,

Not sure I follow you here.

First you say:
 
>   Imagine if the coolant went through the radiator tubes at 100mph, it
>   might get a whole 1 degree cooler by the time it got to the radiator
>   outlet.  You have to let it sit there for long enough to cool down.

Then you say:

>    Yes, if you flow more air too fast each air mollecule won't absorb 
>    as much heat but you have many more air mollecules going past to 
>    make up for it.  

The principles of fluid dynamics aren't different for different fluids.  
Both air and water are "fluid".  So why, in the first example, do you 
seem to say slowing down the water is needed while, in the second 
example, you seem to be saying faster is better.  Aren't your arguments 
at odds with each other?

My apologies but let's agree to leave A/C out of it. We talking the 
compression and expansion of a gas which isn't the same way our cooling 
systems work.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 20:08:02 -0300
Subject: Re: FW: Redline Water Wetter: experience/sources?

Frank Boerger wrote:
> 
> If one had doulbe the flow, then each unit of coolant need only absorb 
> and give up half the heat at a "normal" flow rate...

And another question:

Has anybody every removed the thermostat from a vehicle and had the car 
overheat due to the lack of a thermostat?  I know I've done it in years 
gone by but never had an overheating problem because of it.  Opinions?

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: "Roger M. Borlase" <BORLASE@gordonc.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 17:44:05 -0300
Subject: Re: FW: Redline Water Wetter: experience/sources? 

>And another question:
>
>Has anybody every removed the thermostat from a vehicle and had the car 
>overheat due to the lack of a thermostat?  I know I've done it in years 
>gone by but never had an overheating problem because of it.  Opinions?

Wasting gas because more gas will be used to get engine up to temp.

Roger Borlase
http://www.microdata.com/rborlase

p.s.
Thanks for looking at my page from edison3.cqeq.com

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:38:48 -0300
Subject: Re: FW: Redline Water Wetter: experience/sources? 

>Has anybody every removed the thermostat from a vehicle and had the car 
>overheat due to the lack of a thermostat?  I know I've done it in years 
>gone by but never had an overheating problem because of it.  Opinions?

If you mean that the increased coolant flow should result in less overall
cooling, maybe it could... but the safety margin is such that you need to
have a seriously screwed-up cooling system first in order for the missing
thermostat to push it over the edge (at which point everyone says, "Ah-Ha!"
and blames the thermostat).

The usual rule about removing the thermostat is that it prevents the engine
from reaching operating temperature, but that's because the engine's "happy
medium" might be something below desired temperature, depending on ambient
conditions and so on. In other words, sometimes you need a thermostat to
keep things warmed up instead of cooled down. The fact that the operating
temperature may go down just because you yanked the thermostat doesn't mean
only that the thermostat was "getting in the way" or that faster coolant
flow through the block enhances heat transfer, or faster flow through the
radiator enhances heat dissipation, etc. Under cold conditions, the 
radiator may dissipate way more heat than we want it to; under hot conditions
it may not dissipate enough. A missing thermostat could give a different 
effect depending on what we had to start with.

God, I'm rambling now. I wonder if I made a point anywhere up there...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@metrolink.net>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 10:14:51 -0300
Subject: re: vw for sale

At 11:53 AM 8/29/96 -0300, you wrote:

>The '67 bug is a nightmare to restore.  There are lots of body/trim/etc
>pieces unique to the '67.  

It's been restored...you can still get parts.        

>I don't in any way mean this as a flame to whoever posted it. 

OK, I won't take it as a flame, then!

>- Travis and the '69 olds 

Let's end this VW thing right here...if someone has something to say about
it, email me directly (dpauliso@metrolink.net).  I don't want to be wasting
Olds bandwidth yacking about VW's...Thanks!
- --
Dave Paulison          Melbourne, Florida        69 Cutlass Supreme
dpauliso@metrolink.net

------------------------------

From: Nick DiGiovanni <ndigiova@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 17:02:10 -0300
Subject: Re: Redline Water Wetter and Viscosity Table 

At 07:37 PM 8/29/96 -0300, you wrote:

>No doubt, in your area, you have noticed that ice flows slower at a
riverbank >than it does in the center of the river.

Yes doubt, in my area my igloo is sitting on a frozen river and it ain't
mov'n. Oh, excuse me while I go and harpoon another baby seal for dinner :)


Nick DiGiovanni
Port Coquitlam, B.C.
1970 4-4-2 - "Snarls Softly and Carries a Big Kick"

------------------------------

From: Brad Nicholson <76062.3042@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 18:19:18 -0300
Subject: Re: Wetter Water

Here's my $0.002 worth,

I added Wetter Water in my 1987 442, running the usual water antrifreeze mix.

I did notice a drop in temp of 10-20 degrees on average, and now barely crack
180 degrees on hot days in traffic.  I like it.
 ---
| | | Brad Nicholson
| | | 1987 442 W-42
|/|\| President - Capitol City Rockets (thru 12\97)
| | | 76062.3042@compuserve.com
 ---

------------------------------

From: Brad Nicholson <76062.3042@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 18:19:16 -0300
Subject: New Baby Coming - LSS

Through no luck of my own, I'll be the proud step father to a 1994 88 LSS in 2
weeks.  This one has a little over 55K on it and it is coming from my wife's
cousin's wife who got a new job w/ company car.  It's champagne
& leather interior w/ all the bells and whistles.  It's not an Aurora, or a
Toronado, but I'LL TAKE IT!!!! Price - $11,500

Tell ya how it drives after delivery.  I'll switch everything to Synthetic,
cause the miles aint to high.  Prior driving style was 80% highway.

Can I become a pseudo Toro fanatic - it is FWD. Please.

 ---
| | | Brad Nicholson
| | | 1987 442 W-42
|/|\| 1994 88 LSS (soon)
| | | President - Capitol City Rockets (thru 12\97)
 ---  76062.3042@compuserve.com

------------------------------

From: Brad Nicholson <76062.3042@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 18:19:14 -0300
Subject: New OCA Chapter Forming: Baltimore, MD 

To any and all Olds Newsgroup Members in Maryland, USA
(and anyone they know not on the list who might be interested)

I'm going to start a new chapter of OCA, to encompass the area from the MD-PA
state line, south to about Annapolis/Bowie area, West to the MD-VA state line
and east to the Atlantic Ocean.  Baltimore will probably be the focal point,
since I live just NE of it in Perry Hall. Anybody interested in become a part 
of
it, i.e. charter member, drop me a line. I'll try to start getting it really
rolling in October and get our charter in Lansing in '97, to start the next
century of Olds!!!

Also, anybody got any ideas for names.  Here's a couple from the top of my 
head:
(This can start a thread as well as aything else can, just snip (or snipe)
accordingly. )

MOOG  - Maryland Oldsmobile Owners Group
MOO   - Maryland Oldsmobile Owners
CCR   - Charm City Rockets (Charm City being Baltimore's 'Official' nickname)
CBR   - Chesapeake Bay Rockets
ROM   - Rockets Over Maryland
CSO   - Crab State Olds (We're known for our blue crabs)
MRC   - Maryland Rockets Club
MOC   - Maryland Oldsmobile Chapter (or Club)
OCM   - Oldsmobile Club of Maryland
MROC  - Maryland Rocketeers Oldsmobile Club
TTCOC - Terrapin Turnpike Cruisers Oldsmobile Club (Univ of MD Terps Sports
Teams)
OAM   - Oldsmobiles Annonymous of Maryland

Remember - Francis Scott Key was the first Oldsmobile hobbyist. It's in the 
Star
Spangled Banner:
"The rockets red glare, Buicks bursting in air" or something like that.

Thanks in advance for all the bandwidth to come.   8^}

 ---
| | | Brad Nicholson
| | | 1987 442 W-42
|/|\| 1994 88 LSS (soon)
| | | President - Capitol City Rockets (thru 12\97)
 ---  76062.3042@compuserve.com

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:20:48 -0300
Subject: Re: FW: Redline Water Wetter: experience/sources?

Roger M. Borlase wrote:
> 
> Wasting gas because more gas will be used to get engine up to temp.

Well, yeah, sure.  But I was still on the thermal thing.  Maybe I should 
buy that VW and get rid of the gas guzzlers.........  Naw......

> Thanks for looking at my page from edison3.cqeq.com

Your more than welcome.


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:18:09 -0300
Subject: Re: Redline Water Wetter and Viscosity Table

Nick DiGiovanni wrote:
> 
> Yes doubt, in my area my igloo is sitting on a frozen river and it 
> ain't mov'n. Oh, excuse me while I go and harpoon another baby seal 
> for dinner :)

Affordable housing is still available in Florida.

And PETA is gonna get you for that baby seal remark...    :o

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:34:04 -0300
Subject: Re: FW: Redline Water Wetter: experience/sources?

Andrew C. Green wrote:
> 
> If you mean that the increased coolant flow should result in less 
> overall cooling, maybe it could... 

Well, not what *I* mean but that's the impression I getting from some of 
the posts: "If your coolant moves too fast, you're gonna overheat."

> ...you need to have a seriously screwed-up cooling system first in 
> order for the missing thermostat to push it over the edge.

Agreed.

> In other words, sometimes you need a thermostat to keep things warmed 
> up instead of cooled down. 

Sure do.  Especially in your neck of the woods.  :)

> ... just because you yanked the thermostat doesn't mean only that the 
> thermostat was  "getting in the way" or that faster coolant flow 
> through the block enhances heat transfer, or faster flow through the
> radiator enhances heat dissipation, etc. 

Didn't mean to imply that it did.

> A missing thermostat could give a different effect depending on what we 
> had to start with.

Of course your right.  My question was did the removal cause anyone car 
to overheat as the "fast flow" theory would suggest that it would.

This is becoming almost an urban legend.  The problem with "fast flow" is 
more properly a problem of turbulant vs laminar flow.  Laminar flow 
exhibits more "boundry layer" than turbulant flow and is therefore less 
efficient.  And while it remains to be seen what the problem was with the 
P51 (Mustang!  :o), I doubt that this would ever be a problem in an 
automobile engine.

> God, I'm rambling now. 

We all are.  But it IS Olds related.  

Isn't it?

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 17:30:49 -0300
Subject: Re: New Baby Coming - LSS 

>Through no luck of my own, I'll be the proud step father to a 1994 88 LSS in 2
>weeks.  This one has a little over 55K on it and it is coming from my wife's
>cousin's wife who got a new job w/ company car.  It's champagne
>& leather interior w/ all the bells and whistles.  It's not an Aurora, or a
>Toronado, but I'LL TAKE IT!!!! Price - $11,500

Wheee! Sounds like fun. My SSEi is the sister car to that; I've found
occasional references to it in the Pontiac manual. What engine has this
one got?

P.S. Good price, too...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Scott R Clark <mickeyd@selway.umt.edu>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:34:14 -0300
Subject: Frozen Cold Can...

> 
> I don't think you could freeze the gas in the lines with dry ice, but I don't
> have facts to confirm this.  Anybody know where to look up the temperature 
at 
> which gas freezes?  

	One other thing to remember is that the gas is constantly flowing 
through the line (or close enough to it), not just sitting stationary.  
That should help keep it from freezing even if the actual temp of the 
tube it's flowing though is cold enough to freeze the gas.  Also it's 
going to be the same temp as outside air, if not warmer going into the 
can.  

> 
> As for the dry ice, my memory says that it is not significantly colder than 
> "regular" (ie H2O) ice.  The main reason to use dry ice is that it is "dry",
> ie you don't end up with a water all over whatever it was you were trying 
> to keep cold.
> 
	Having played with a lot of dry ice in the not too distant past, I 
can pretty much safely say that it is in fact quite a bit colder than 
regualar ice (at least it seems that way).  I've come pretty close to 
getting frost bite with it, and it can even get *really* cold through a 
thick pair of leather gloves.  
	
	One last note on the stuff--it seems like it would have a much 
colder surface temp than ice anyway, since as ice reaches it's melting 
point, you get water on the surface of the cube thats more than 32 
degrees...with dry ice, when it reaches it's melting point, it sublimates 
into CO2, so the surface temp should be fairly constant even as it 
melts.  

	Not that it should really matter in a cold can anway.  I really 
doubt that such small differences would make any noticable differences 
in output.  
	
	Now maybe if you use dry ice with a fuel-line magnet... 8)

	
				Scott
			1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #283
********************************
 
