To:	oldsmobile-digest @ chebucto.ns.ca@INTERNET1
cc:	 
From:	oldsmobile-digest-owner @ chebucto.ns.ca@INTERNET1 @ ABTLAB
Date:	11/12/96 12:15:34 PM
Subject:	oldsmobile-digest V1 #363


oldsmobile-digest        Tuesday, 12 November 1996     Volume 01 :
Number 363


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 16:23:18 -0400
Subject: Re: What's real? (was: 70 442 W-30 VIN)

Kurt Heinrich wrote:
>
> JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com wrote:
> >
> > Hey Joe,
> >           ...<snip>...
> > Would it be so bad that if a person did upgrade their vehicle to a
have > > all of the above?  Stating that it is a fake is a very strong >
> statement.  I feel that if a person would go to such an extreme, then >
> if they want to believe its a W-30 then so be it.  Wouldn't this > >
upgraded car be effectively the same as a W-30?  I am knew to the world >
> of automotive accuracy.  Please excuse any ignorance on my part. > > >
> Chris Sparks > > 68 442 > >           Funny you should mention this.
I had actually written a few > >           lines to this extent on my
original post then thought better > >           of it and deleted them
before mailing.  I have mixed > >           feelings about this.  If you
did all of the above, you would > >           have effectively built a
"real" W-30, with all of the > >           equipment and performance of
a factory unit.  If you did > >           this for your own use, great.
If you did this and tried to > >           sell it as an original W-30,
is it a fake or not?  I'd have > >           to say yes, it is a fake,
because there is some perceived > >           value (at least, to some
buyers) to having an "original", as > >           opposed to  a
"reproduction".  The line gets really fuzzy > >           when the car
gets restored. > > My thoughts are that if the car left the factory as
a Cutlass and you > made it into a 442 (with all the right parts), it's
still a Cutlass (not > original, but a Cutlass none the less).  If you
took a 442 and W30'd it > the line is fuzzier because the W30 was a
442...  But, it is more than > an intake manifold, hood, etc.  They had
different cams, lifters, etc > and were blueprinted. > In my mind if the
if it didn't LEAVE THE FACTORY AS A W30, THAN IT'S NOT > A W30. > I've
thought of W30ing a car (strictly for my pleasure, not to try and > sell
as a W30), but would not do this to a numbers matching 442.  Not > that
I'm a stickler for originality, but if you have a good original why >
destroy it? > > Kurt 71 442

Kurt,

If we are having this discussion, that should be telling us something
about our conscience when we change a car from as built.  I will say at
the outset that I have changed every car that I have ever owned.  I feel
that I have an extension of myself when I do this & not just a piece of
GM production.  The next guy just gets my efforts in any way that they
wish to see them.

I don't think that it is right to misrepresent a car.  While it is
yours, change it as you will but be honest about it & expressly so to a
potential new owner.  If you are honest w/yourself & others you will
probably be moderate in changes to a car & therefore retain a valuable
car.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

PS.  Did you know that I am putting a Hurst electric sunroof form a
Hurst Grand Prix in my 1967 Toronado?  Of course it's original.  It came
ont the Pontiac didn't it?

------------------------------

From: Dave Isho <davei@concentric.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:30:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Spotted: Another '67 Cutlass Convt.

At 10:02 AM 11/12/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Y'know, of the 3 '67 convertibles I've seen (mine, this one, and
another a >couple of years ago), mine is the only Supreme.  I should
look up the production >numbers for Supreme .vs. 'regular' Cutlass
convertibles... > Don't know the complete breakdown but here's what I
got from Helen Earley:

Total 1967 Olds production was 548,390 and of that number 10, 897 were
Cutlass Supreme convertibles.

567 were 6-cylinder Cutlass convertibles
3,777 were 8-cylinder Cutlass convertibles
************************************************************************
* *   __   _____ ____    ______
* *  / /_ |___  | ___|  / / ___|        Dave Isho
* * | '_ \   / / |     / /\___ \        Mailto:davei@concentric.net
* * | (_) | / /| |___ / /  ___) |
HTTP://www.concentric.net/~davei/ * *  \___/ /_/  \____|_/  |____/
* *   ____                             _   _ _     _
* *  / ___| ___  _ __ __   __ ___ _ __| |_(_) |__ | | ___
* * | |    / _ \| '_ \\ \ / // _ \ '__| __| | '_ \| |/ _ \
* * | |___| (_) | | | |\ V /|  __/ |  | |_| | |_) | |  __/
* *  \____|\___/|_| |_| \_/  \___|_|   \__|_|_.__/|_|\___|
*
************************************************************************
*





------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:42:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Spotted: Another '67 Cutlass Convt.

Dave, One of the Other '67 Cutlass Owners, sez:

> Total 1967 Olds production was 548,390 and of that number 10, 897 were
> Cutlass Supreme convertibles.
>
> 567 were 6-cylinder Cutlass convertibles
> 3,777 were 8-cylinder Cutlass convertibles


I've seen that 3,777 number before, prolly from the Year One book I
have, or perhaps that Cutlass option list book I bought a few months
ago. I gather that's both C/S and non-Supreme, and doesn't include 442?

Also, how does the 10,897 number figure from 3,777 + 567?  Or was that a
typo?

Didn't know about the 6 cylinder production... in fact, I wasn't even
aware of any 6 cylinder engines in the Olds lineup in the late 60s,
anybody have any info on it/them?

Thanks for the info, Dave!



Tim Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'89 Cadillac Fleetwood, nickname yet to be determined
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: aq302@detroit.freenet.org (Art E. Heckman)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:44:32 -0400
Subject: Re: '68 disc brakes

>
>>But, any 69-72 "A" body single piston setup will work with no
modifications. >> I was able to pick one '70 and one '71-2 setup in
Atlanta.  The going rate >>for all the pieces you need (spindles,
calipers, disc brake unique flex lines >>and frame mount, proportioning
valve, maser cylinder/booster) > >Do you need a different master
cylinder?  Do the ones for the front disc >cars have a different
internal construction?  If (when) I convert to front >discs, can I use
my new drum brake master cylinder? > >-- >Dave Paulison
1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme >Melbourne, Florida             1993
Mitsubishi Eclipse GS >dpauliso@gate.net > > > >
                 You can't use the drum brake master cylinder when
convering to disc brakes because drum brakes use a check valve for both
the front and rear brakes. These check vales are just behind the brass
seats that the tubing line attach to. They are there to maintain about 8
 psi on the wheel cylinders on drum brakes to keep the cylinder cups
slightly expanded so as not to leak. The disc brake master cylinder,
does not have a check valve in the front dicc  ciruit. If you use the
drum brake master cylinder, the front discs will be slightly on at all
times. (to much so) You can,t turn the wheel by hand. The best solution
is to just buy a Disc brake master cylinder. I don,t think you can
remaove the front check valve unless you have replacment brass seats.
They don,t sell these seats at any dealership. I guess only the
rebuilders buy them by the lot.                    Art Heckman

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:52:21 -0400
Subject: Re: '68 disc brakes

BobH592058@aol.com wrote:

Thanks Bob.

Chris Sparks

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:40:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Setting the Pace

>   Having some knowledge of mass mailings it is very possible that it
is >being done by country code first and then by zip code next.  (oh
great, >another theory)   :~)

I'll second this theory. In fact, you can send your mailing list to the
post office on diskette and they'll validate all your ZIP codes against
the addresses and send it back to you, thus reducing the odds of bounced
mail and bad addresses somewhat. So you may see a geographic pattern to
the mailings.

I suppose someone could simply call them up and ask, but that would be
cheating.  :-)

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:55:36 -0400
Subject: Re: What's real? (was: 70 442 W-30 VIN)

JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com wrote:

Thanks for returning my e-mail

Chris Sparks

------------------------------

From: OldsHeidi@aol.com
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:55:50 -0400
Subject: Olds Service Manual on Line

Hello,

To interject on Chris's question
<<Its a shame that we can't get these owner's manuals, service manuals
on-line.
Would there be a copyright problem?
Chris Sparks
68 442>>

Helm Publising (1-800-551-4123) at this time publishes and sells  most
GM service manuals past & present.  There are copyright concerns
involved.   I believe however, they may soon be offering them on CD
Rom....now, don't ask me when because I am really not involved in this
process but understand it has been proposed

Olds Heidi@aol.com

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:50:16 -0400
Subject: Re: 1968 442 owners WITH SIDE STRIPES--Attention please!!

...if ANYONE else on the list knows of this, or has a '68 442 with side
stripes, I would appreciate a response with an exact measurement (if
possible) from the outside edge of the front wheel well trim (probably
best at the bottom of the trim/wheel well) to the edge of the outside
(small) stripe closest to the chrome trim....

          I've got the stripes on my 68 W-30, which still has the
          factory paint.  I'll measure them tonight (along with the
          442 emblem location) and post tomorrow.

          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:52:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Winter storage and Jack Stand Placement

>Why not put junkyard wheels and tires on the car instead of lifting
>it? If you store the car in a garage and for some reason you had to
>move the car to get at something or in case of fire, you could just
>push the car out.

I like this idea. I was going to say that when you put it up on
jackstands, I'd put them under the lower A-arms at the front and under
the rear axle at or near the spring shackles or coil seats -- whatever
-- at the rear, so the suspension isn't hanging free but the tires are
off the ground. But by swapping on semi-disposable wheels and tires you
do keep a mobile car, plus on those cold winter nights you can curl up
with your loved ones next the fire and polish the good wheels together.
Ask your Significant Other what he/she thinks of this idea. They'll be
speechless, I bet!

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 11:11:04 -0400
Subject: Re: '68 shoulder belts

Greg Beaulieu wrote:
>
> The previously-mentioned spaghettiesque shoulder belts became standard
on > '68s built on or after Jan. 1, 1968 by federal mandate. '68
Cutlasses > built before that date did not have them as standard
although they were > an option. My '68 was built in September '67 and
does not have them, > while my friend Donnie's '68 W30 is a later car
and has the belts. > > Wonder if you could take the external-mount
inertia-reel belts from a > mid-70s GM and retrofit them to one of these
cars?

Darn you Greg!  That was going to be my next question ;-)  My 77 had one
and it worked like a charm.  If it did work, then I would have to
replace
the buckle latch to accomodate two webbing feeds and use the save
buckle.

Anyone has any insight on this one.  I very interested.  I like the
added
safety.

Chris Sparks
68 442

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 11:13:42 -0400
Subject: Re: '68 disc brakes

Dave Paulison wrote:
>
> >But, any 69-72 "A" body single piston setup will work with no
modifications. > > I was able to pick one '70 and one '71-2 setup in
Atlanta.  The going rate > >for all the pieces you need (spindles,
calipers, disc brake unique flex lines > >and frame mount, proportioning
valve, maser cylinder/booster) > > Do you need a different master
cylinder?  Do the ones for the front disc > cars have a different
internal construction?  If (when) I convert to front > discs, can I use
my new drum brake master cylinder?

I just had my MC replaced recently.  I would hope that it would be
compatible
with a disc braking system.  I hate spending money needlessly.

Chris Sparks
68 442

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 11:07:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Winter storage and Jack Stand Placement

...So, exactly where should the frame be supported??

          According to the factory service manual, the A-body frame is
          reinforced for jacking at two locations.  Your front stands
          should be placed under the frame rails (NOT the sheet metal)
          just aft of front wheels, as you had suggested.  If you get
          down and look at the frame rails, you will notice a
          reinforced area at the corner behind the front wheels.  On
          non-convertibles, this reinforced section is fully boxed,
          with the long straight sections under the rocker panels
          actually an open "C" section, however on convertibles the
          frame is fully boxed all the way back.  Similarly, place the
          rear jack stands just forward of the rear wheels, at the
          reinforcements where the lower control arms attach to the
          frame.

          Note that this type of support will leave the suspension
          unloaded (springs expanded), which I would not recommend for
          storage.  I think it would be better to keep the springs
          compressed at ride height, primarily to prevent stressing
          the rubber bushings in the suspension.

          The factory service manual requires the suspension attaching
          bolts to be torqued with the weight of the car on the
          wheels.  The reason for this is to lock the bushings in the
          "unstressed" condition at normal ride height.  A little
          engineering here, so bear with me:  The suspension bushings
          are made of concentric steel sleeves with a rubber - or
          polyurethane - material molded between them.  If you were to
          grip the inner and outer sleeves and torque them relative to
          one another, you would torsionally stress the rubber.  If
          left in this condition for a period of time, the rubber will
          deteriorate from the load - thus the instructions in the
          service manual to torque the fasteners at normal ride
          height.  Storing the car with the bushings loaded (that is,
          the suspension at some position other than ride height) can
          lead to degradation of the bushings.  I'd recommend instead
          supporting the car under the front suspension arms and the
          rear axle.  This will keep the weight of the car on the
          springs and will prevent excessive load on the bushings.

          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30



------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 11:18:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Interior colors

PHartlieb@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 96-11-11 15:42:09 EST, you write:
>
> > How strange that I have a white headliner (basket weave), white
> >  upholstery
> >  (dot-diamond), black carpetting and dash (and part of the door
panel) > >  with blue > >  moldings.  How odd!!! > > > >  Chris Sparks >
>  68 442 > > > > Have you posted your data plate information for us to
decode?  Maybe the > interior color was changed by a previous owner.

Yes I did a while back.  If you want I can submit it again.  I would
like to get to the bottom of this.

Chris Sparks
68 442

------------------------------

From: Doug Ahern <doug@cobra.cosmic.uga.edu>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 11:15:57 -0400
Subject: Re: B/O/P 455's

As far as the weight of the engines go  (stock engine weights:

engine      weight(lbs)
- -------------------
Buick455    600-640  (my source lists both, the later may be with
accessories) Olds 455    620   (small blocks are 560 with accessories)
Pontiac 389 650   (the only one I could find was a 389, but a 455 should
                   be the same weight).
chevy 350   535
chevy 454   685

if you want a 455, I don't think weight should be a factor as they are
all about the same.  Are you going to be drag racing, or is this going
to be a street machine?  If its street machine,  any of the 455's will
do. You can get hi-po parts for all of them if you are doing basic
street engine rebuilds or hi-perf. bolt ons.  All three can make lots of
power and have good low-end torque.

most 455s are smoggers and have low compression, so you might want to
watch for pre-72 engines  if you are hoping to drop it in without a
rebuild and new pistons  (you can run the low comp 455's of course
and in a light weight 79 cutlass, they will make lots power).

all three of the BOP 455's can be made into serious strip brawlers, each
one requiring differing mods to do so.  Of course, if you are looking
bang/$$, its hard to beat the small-bowtie simply because hi-po parts
are 1/2 the price of everything else.

make sure your cutlass's sunspension is up to snuff for whatever engine
duties and applications it will see.  If your cutlass was originally a
v6, a 455 will add aleast 225 lbs directly over the front wheels, not
to mention weight increases if you go to a th400.  (speaking of trannys,
you might want to consider a th350 if this is going to be a street car
or if you are planning to stay under 350hp's.  they are lighter, deplete
less hps, and can be built to hold up to lots of hp's (upwards of
500-600!!)...

let us know what you end up doing!!!

Doug Ahern      doug@cosmic.uga.edu  1964 F-85 Cutlass
http://www.cosmic.uga.edu/doug.html  1969 Dart
Sys Admin, COSMIC, Univ. of Georgia  1974 Satellite ex-cop car

------------------------------

From: Dave Isho <davei@concentric.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 11:24:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Spotted: Another '67 Cutlass Convt.

At 10:42 AM 11/12/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Dave, One of the Other '67 Cutlass Owners, sez:
>
>> Total 1967 Olds production was 548,390 and of that number 10, 897
were >> Cutlass Supreme convertibles. >> >> 567 were 6-cylinder
Cutlass convertibles >> 3,777 were 8-cylinder Cutlass convertibles > >
>I've seen that 3,777 number before, prolly from the Year One book I
have, >or perhaps that Cutlass option list book I bought a few months
ago. >I gather that's both C/S and non-Supreme, and doesn't include 442? >
>Also, how does the 10,897 number figure from 3,777 + 567?  Or was that
a typo?

The way I understood it was 10,897 Cutlass Supreme convertibles
                             3,777 Cutlass convertibles 8 Cyl. (8 Cyl
standard in c/s right?)
                               567 Cutlass convertibles 6 Cyl. (not
avail in c/s right?)
                            ------------------------------------
                            15,241 Total Cutlass convertible production

Don't know how the 442's figure in those numbers was 442 just an option
code in 67? If so then the production numbers would be included in the
Cutlass Supreme numbers I would imagine.
************************************************************************
* *   __   _____ ____    ______
* *  / /_ |___  | ___|  / / ___|        Dave Isho
* * | '_ \   / / |     / /\___ \        Mailto:davei@concentric.net
* * | (_) | / /| |___ / /  ___) |
HTTP://www.concentric.net/~davei/ * *  \___/ /_/  \____|_/  |____/
* *   ____                             _   _ _     _
* *  / ___| ___  _ __ __   __ ___ _ __| |_(_) |__ | | ___
* * | |    / _ \| '_ \\ \ / // _ \ '__| __| | '_ \| |/ _ \
* * | |___| (_) | | | |\ V /|  __/ |  | |_| | |_) | |  __/
* *  \____|\___/|_| |_| \_/  \___|_|   \__|_|_.__/|_|\___|
*
************************************************************************
*





------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 11:30:00 -0400
Subject: Re: F**d Explorer

Hi!

Well it happened again.  I got challenged by a F**d Explorer.  Not
really a slow car as a matter of fact!  I was driving along and it
seemed that he was egging me on (I know that is hard to believe!).
Well I gave him a little sample.  Tsk Tsk Tsk.  I love my car!  This
time I didn't have the Octane Booster in the gas.  BTW the fuel pump
works fine and my car seems happier (no really!).  Yes I do put
animation to inanimate objects so sue me! :-)

Anyway, these people just don't learn.

Chris Sparks
68 442

Theme: Another one bites the dust, Another one bites the dust,...

------------------------------

From: "Etzel Bobby" <Etzel.Bobby@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:34:34 -0400
Subject: RE: 70 442 W-30 VIN

Thanks Joe

I did find the same info about the X in the Olds FAQ (great resource). I
think you are correct, it would cost to much to buy all the parts and
build a W-30. So I think the car must be a real W-30. All the right
parts are there, but I didn't have time to check all the numbers. I will
do a little more checking. Just a few more questions:

Is the rear end in a 70 W-30 all aluminum or just the W-27 cover?

Was there a cardboard liner in the trunk? I have never seen this and my
442 does not have one?

Bobby

70 442
92 Seville
88 Seville
________________________________________________________________________
_______ From: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca on Mon, Nov 11, 1996 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: 70 442 W-30 VIN To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca


...However, I seem to remember reading in this list, that all W30s have
a X in

the VIN.  Is this correct...

          Not quite.  The "X" in the VIN designates a W-30 for the
          1972 model year only.  1972 was the first year in which the
          specific engine was coded into the VIN; prior years only
          designated 6 or 8 cylinders.  Short of finding the build
          sheet hidden somewhere in the car, there is no foolproof way
          of proving that a 1970 442 was, in fact, a W-30.  Certainly,
          if all of the factory-installed equipment is in place (red
          inner fenders, "F" heads, aluminum intake, posi, rally pack,
          sport mirrors, "OW" trans (if automatic), manual brakes,
          W-25 hood, and properly coded carb and distributor), the
          odds are quite high that the car is an original factory
          W-30, however keep in mind that it is theoretically possible
          for someone to have installed all of this equipment in an
          attempt to fake it.  On the other hand, locating,
          purchasing, and installing all of this hardware would have
          been so expensive that it would have been more cost
          effective just to buy a real W-30 - making highly unlikely
          that the car is a fake.

          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30



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To:	oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca Subject: Re: 70 442 W-30 VIN Sender:
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------------------------------

From: "Kenneth G. Holland Jr." <rottin@coil.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 11:30:39 -0400
Subject: Stuff for sale

1966 Oldsmobile Tri power manifold with correct carbs(rebuilt), choke
assembly, heat riser cut outs and all linkage. NO air cleaners or fule
lines. 850 o.b.o.

1966 Oldsmobile 442 400 "E" Block with correct # "B" heads, complete.
Includes automatic Trans w/ switch pitch torque converter.


Send offers to me,
rottin@coil.com
- --
     Kenneth G. Holland Jr.
   K&D Holland Trucking, Inc.
 Excavation, Demolition, Paving
  rottin@coil.com 216.291.2780

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 11:34:42 -0400
Subject: Re[2]: What's real? (was: 70 442 W-30 VIN)


My thoughts are that if the car left the factory as a Cutlass and you
made it into a 442 (with all the right parts), it's still a Cutlass (not
 original, but a Cutlass none the less).

        How do you feel about 64-67 442s, which were Cutlasses (or
        F-85s) with the 442 package installed at the factory?  The 442
        didn't become a separate model (with a unique VIN) until 68.

If you took a 442 and W30'd it the line is fuzzier because the W30 was a
 442...  But, it is more than an intake manifold, hood, etc.  They had
different cams, lifters, etc and were blueprinted. In my mind if the
if it didn't LEAVE THE FACTORY AS A W30, THAN IT'S NOT A W30.

        In 66, the W-30 package was available as a dealer-installed
        option.  Does this count?  Yes, the 52 factory-built cars had
        the car number stamped on the air cleaner shroud, while the
        dealer-built cars did not, but does this make it not a W-30?
        What about the people who bought their 66 442, then went
        straight to the dealer's parts counter, bought the W-30 package
        (it was available in the parts book), and installed it at home?

I've thought of W30ing a car (strictly for my pleasure, not to try and
sell as a W30), but would not do this to a numbers matching 442.  Not
that I'm a stickler for originality, but if you have a good original why
 destroy it?

        I don't necessarily disagree with you, but for my own personal
        use, I'd like to have the car I would have ordered were I able
        to buy it brand new that year.  I certainly wouldn't intend to
        promote the car as something it is not, however none of these
        modifications are irreversible if one wanted to put the car
        back to the as-delivered condition.  I agree that I would
        never cut up a good original (why, oh why do people cut holes
        for tunnel ram intakes in factory ram-air hoods?  Not only
        does this destroy a rare piece, but it looks stupid too.).
        The point I was trying to make is to ask the question of where
        do you draw the line?  Is it OK to replace a quarter panel due
        to rust?  What about replacing the as-delivered AM mono radio
        with AM-FM ("flippin dial" and all :))?   At some point, if
        you add all the factory W-30 pieces, you effectively have a
        car with all of the performance and flaws of a
        factory-delivered W-30.

        Setting aside the ethical question for a second (yes, that's a
        big one, and no, I am not in any way suggesting that it is ok
        to counterfeit rare musclecars), how is assembling such a car
        from pieces acquired separately any different from assembling
        a ground-up restoration on a factory-built W-30?  Both cars
        have exactly the same parts and are assembled by the same
        person in the same way.   Both look and drive exactly the
        same, and if the person were careful with parts selection, the
        non-factory car could still be "numbers matching", as most
        date codes are only within a couple of months of the actual
        build date of the car, due to warehousing of parts prior to
        actual assembly of the car.  Besides, what if the
        factory-built car had certain components (like the
        transmission) replaced at some point in its life?

        As I said in my original post, unless you are purposely
        building a fake for the purpose of ripping someone off, build
        the car the way you want, drive the wee out of it, and have
        fun.  Besides, the effort to properly collect the correctly
        date-coded parts and assemble them into a counterfeit W-30
        would probably not be cost effective compared to just buying a
        real one.

        Joe Padavano
        jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

        66 442
        68 W-30
        69 H/O
        70 W-30



------------------------------

From: Dave Isho <davei@concentric.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 11:45:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Re[2]: What's real? (was: 70 442 W-30 VIN)

At 11:34 AM 11/12/96 -0400, you wrote:

>
>        As I said in my original post, unless you are purposely
>        building a fake for the purpose of ripping someone off, build
>        the car the way you want, drive the wee out of it, and have
>        fun.

Amen!!!!!
************************************************************************
* *   __   _____ ____    ______
* *  / /_ |___  | ___|  / / ___|        Dave Isho
* * | '_ \   / / |     / /\___ \        Mailto:davei@concentric.net
* * | (_) | / /| |___ / /  ___) |
HTTP://www.concentric.net/~davei/ * *  \___/ /_/  \____|_/  |____/
* *   ____                             _   _ _     _
* *  / ___| ___  _ __ __   __ ___ _ __| |_(_) |__ | | ___
* * | |    / _ \| '_ \\ \ / // _ \ '__| __| | '_ \| |/ _ \
* * | |___| (_) | | | |\ V /|  __/ |  | |_| | |_) | |  __/
* *  \____|\___/|_| |_| \_/  \___|_|   \__|_|_.__/|_|\___|
*
************************************************************************
*





------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 11:44:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Spotted: Another '67 Cutlass Convt.

Dave sez:
>
> The way I understood it was 10,897 Cutlass Supreme convertibles
>                              3,777 Cutlass convertibles 8 Cyl. (8 Cyl
> standard in c/s right?)
>                                567 Cutlass convertibles 6 Cyl. (not
avail in > c/s right?) >
------------------------------------ >
15,241 Total Cutlass convertible production

Ah, got it, just a mis-read on my part.  15K ragtop Cutlasses in '67?
And all this time, I thought I had a rare-ish car with a production run
of only 4K or so... oh well, I won't feel so bad when/if I start
deviating more-n-more from stock... time to look for 455s! :)


> Don't know how the 442's figure in those numbers was 442 just an
option code > in 67? If so then the production numbers would be included
in the Cutlass > Supreme numbers I would imagine.

That could very well be, it sounds familiar...

Thanks again, Dave!

Non-Olds:  Someone here at Draper Lab has a '69 or '70 -- not sure of
the year, but it's snas vent windows -- Buick Electra 225 ragtop.  Nice
original shape, I'm sure it's been repainted, but it looks like a
factory cream color.

Unlike me, he seems not to be a fair-weather driver; i.e., I've seen it
here all year 'round.

Lisa, if it's ever for sale, want me to let you know?  I know you're
looking for one ofr your daughter... :)



Tim Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'89 Cadillac Fleetwood, nickname yet to be determined
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: Frank Boerger <103454.317@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 11:44:44 -0400
Subject: FW: 1968 442 owners WITH SIDE STRIPES--Attention please!!

I don't know if this is useful or not, but I have a '68 Cutlass Assembly
Manual, and in section 11, page 105 it shows the patterns used for
piercing fenders. The illustration is not the best (photocopied), but
the difference in 442 location appears to be this:

On a non-stripe 442, the rear most hole of the last character ("2") is
somewhat forward of the last hole in the top of fender chrome piece.  On
a W30 or W36, it looks like the last character mounting hole is directly
below the last(aft) top chrome piece mounting hole.  It's just a sketch,
but it seems fairly clear.

Frank Boerger//Tallahassee, Fl

>...if ANYONE else on the list knows of this, or has a '68 442 with side
>stripes,
>I would appreciate a response with an exact measurement (if possible)
from >the

>outside edge of the front wheel well trim (probably best at the bottom
of the >trim/wheel well) to the edge of the outside (small) stripe
closest to the >chrome >trim....

------------------------------

From: "Etzel Bobby" <Etzel.Bobby@mail.ndhm.gtegsc.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:58:51 -0400
Subject: RE: Setting the Pace

There is a company that sell service manuals and TSBs on CD ROM. ALLDATA
is located on the WEB at http://www.alldata.tsb.com/index.html. There
phone number is 1-800-829-9758. I have the GM CD for my 92 Seville. It
is great, I also have the factory service manual to compare it to. They
list manuals from 1982-1996. If there is enought interest they might add
the classic cars.

Bobby

70 442
92 Seville
88 Seville
________________________________________________________________________
_______ From: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca on Mon, Nov 11, 1996 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: Setting the Pace To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca

>P.S. On the matter of installing shop and service manuals as a club
service; >I'll bet that it can be done; and right on Oldsmobiles web
site too.

That would probably be the _only_ site with even a chance...

>All it would take is the right person calling the right person.  It
would >benefit Olds because they could follow product interest, reduce
the number >of printed books that they would need to handle, and if Olds
did it it would >not cause any copyright problems.

Well, yes and no; I mean, I agree with you that it would be a great
idea, but Olds sells those things for money, and they know darn well
that they don't get paid if some Olds fan sneaks into his office on the
weekend and downloads all Olds' service manual web pages to his printer.
I suspect they're just as protective of their really old manuals as they
are of their contemporary ones, although if they are to persuaded to put
_any_ of this on their web pages, I'd assume it would be publications
which are long out of print. Still, I hate to be a pessimist but I would
not stand on one foot waiting for this to happen.

And from a technical point of view, the best you'd get would be graphic
scans of entire pages, unless someone keyboards all the information and
scans the graphics separately. I venture to guess that the majority of
the info we're interested in does not exist in electronic form, and that
which is stored digitally may require conversion to a web-friendly form
such as HTML or PDF.

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282



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------------------------------

From: Doug Ahern <doug@cobra.cosmic.uga.edu>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 11:52:08 -0400
Subject: spread to square bore adapter performance improvements

I did this on my small block mopar, but I feel the same results would
be had in the case of an Oldsmobile.

If you are using a squarebore to spreadbore adapter on a dual plane
intake,  here's a cheap mod that may buy you some low end power
and response:

I'm using a transdapt square-to-spread bore adapter to mate my Carter
AFB to my 71 340 spreadbore dual plane intake manifold.  One of the
problems with my adapter is that its one big hole and that leaves the
left and right halves of the carb common.  I've always suspected that
this defeated the design of the dual plane intake and was possibly
hurting my low end power.

To battle this problem, I cut out a 3/4" strip from some 1/4" sheet
aluminum. I made a 1/4" thick notch in the center of the front and rear
of the adapter hole.  The adapter is tapered so that the spread side is
larger than the square size.  I cut the notches deep enough so that the
spread side of notch went  1/4" into the adapter.  I then file fit the
3/4" divider into the adapter so that the left and right halves were
seperated.  note, the divider is of the same height as the adapter (or
course).

This made a noticable difference!!  revving between 1500 and 3000 rpm is
much smoother than before.  response and power below 3000 is noticably
better!

Of course, a squarebore intake for a squarebore carb is the best intake
solution, but sometimes, like in my case, budgets allow for adapters and
not manifolds.

if anyone tries it, let me know!!

Doug Ahern      doug@cosmic.uga.edu  1964 F-85 Cutlass
http://www.cosmic.uga.edu/doug.html  1969 Dart
Sys Admin, COSMIC, Univ. of Georgia  1974 Satellite ex-cop car

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 11:58:05 -0400
Subject: Re[2]: 70 442 W-30 VIN

Thanks Joe

          Happy to help.

Just a few more questions:

          Shoot...

Is the rear end in a 70 W-30 all aluminum or just the W-27 cover?

          The stock 70 W-30 rear end is a cast iron 12-bolt posi
          Type-O (see FAQ for distinctions) with a steel cover and
          steel axle shaft tubes.  The W-27 was an option on the W-30
          and W-31 (and, I guess, other 442s/Cutlasses?) in 70-72.
          The W-27 used a cast aluminum center section and rear cover,
          with the steel axle tubes.  The 70 W-27 was a 12-bolt
          (cover), while the 71-72 was a 10-bolt.  Both are quite rare
          and expensive.

          Repro covers are available, but not the center section.  One
          way to make your own W-27 lookalike is to buy the repro
          cover, then have the center section of your stock rear axle
          housing flame sprayed with aluminum (similar to
          aluminum-sprayed headers).  This will look like a real W-27,
          plus it will have the advantage of being stronger (W-27s
          have a reputation for coming apart at the drag strip).

Was there a cardboard liner in the trunk? I have never seen this and my
442 does not have one?

          I've never seen a cardboard liner.  My 70, in fact all of my
          442s, have the vinyl mat in the trunk.  There is a circular
          hardboard cover for the spare tire.

          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 11:13:12 -0400
Subject: members registry

Hello fellow Olds'fanatics,
Thanks for your replies and suggestions!
G. Stewart, your entry is now fixed, it was an error in my html.
D. Isho, I haven't changed your address yet, but will soon.
R. Whitaker, I finally got your entry up.
I recieved a couple of suggestions for improvements on the page.  I
agree that the text can be hard to read, but rather than try to lighten
the background, I think I'm gonna try to make the text a little
stronger, but if neccesary, I might have to get good ole Photoshop out.
I'm including a list of all of the entries that are currently posted
(all that I have).  If you have filled out the form, but your name
isn't here, e-mail me. Also, for those interested in statistics, I've
been sort of paying attention to the states where the most people in
the registry live.  So far, it seems like Florida and Ohio are in the
lead.  I believe that the longest last name I've gotten so far is
Hoopingarner.

Again, the registry is located at

http://www.student.toplinks.com/hp/rovernut/list/oldsreg.html

There are still quite a few people who haven't added themselves to the
registry just yet.  Remeber, there is a link now from the registry
itself, so you don't have to try and remember that "other" URL. If
you don't have internet access, but can recieve e-mail, you can send
me email at zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu, and I'll add your information to
the registry


Beaulieu, Greg
Bonazzoli, Richard
Borlase, Roger M.
Bowles, Brad
Coccagna, Mike
Culp, Lloyd W. (Bill)
De Simone, Philip
DiGiovanni, Nick
Fleeson, Jim W.
Ford, Raymond
Frederick, Mike
Gene, John
Gibson, Gerald
Gulino, Daniel A.
Hall, Mike
Handren, Bob
Heinrich, Kurt
Hoopingarner, Kevin
Hosenbold, Howard
Houlton, Dan
Howes, James K.
Ilola, Esko
Isho, Dave
King, Jeffrey
Klinger, Roland
Labay, Jason P.
Lawrence, Robert
Lentz, Tom
Malland, Rob
Marshall, Brian
Mayer, Matt
McCall, Joe
Miller, Chris
Newman, Doug
Paulison, Dave
Pierce, Clayton W.
Porter, Kenny
Prince, Mark K.
Proietto, Fernando
Pruett, Greg
Ruper, Chris
Spud
Stewart, Graham
Twomey, Shawn
Varhus, Al
Verkleeren, Jeff
Walter, Richard H.
Whitaker, Robert
Whitcore, John & Robin
Wieczorek, Steve
Williams, Dan
Wyatt, Dave
Zeilmann, Jeff
Zuccaro, Linda & Gene


Peace, Goodwill, and Happy Oldsmobilling,
Clayton Pierce,
zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu
'84 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme (350 4bbl. 66k miles)
'81 Oldsmobile Cutlass Calais (350 4bbl. ? miles) {parts car}
'80 Rover 3500 (215 EFI V8 85k miles)
'72 Mercury Marquis Brougham (429 4bbl. 110k miles)

------------------------------

From: mrw@mil.emc.com (Marc Westerlind)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 12:11:43 -0400
Subject: speaking of rear ends...

I just bought a true 1970 posi rear end for my 1970 cutlass for $250 out
of a local parts magazine. I heard that these thing are hard to come by
(the person I bought it from got 20 calls from 5-10 pm on the first
night the ad was sent out) The rear end had a 12 bolt cover with a 10
bolt posi assembly... When I went to get a ring an pinion for it I found
that it would cost about $450 for 3.40:1 ratio because the pinion has 27
splines instead of the standard 10 bolts 30 splines(correct?). I
currently have a standard differential in the rear end right now (10
bolt cover 10 bold carrier nothing special right?) Is the rear end I
found actually that rare?

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 12:20:38 -0400
Subject: Re: 68 442 W-30

To: Joe Padavano

Hey Joe,

Did the W-30 option on 68 442's only apply to 455 engines?  It would
seem that if this were the case, then upgrading my 400 engine to W-30
would seem rather moot.

Any 'puts?

Chris Sparks
68 442

------------------------------

From: Todd Hall <thall@en.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 12:28:12 -0400
Subject: Web Site

My boss is looking for a 56 Super 88 and I was doing some web searching
and came across this site http://www.kars.com  There are a *lot* of cars
for sale on this site, including a good selection of Old's. Definitely
worth checking out.




Todd Hall (thall@en.com)  | Wilson Mill Foods, Inc.
Cleveland, OH             | http://www.catalano.com
72' 442
87' Buick Somerset

------------------------------

From: Kevin Wong <yu135008@yorku.ca>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 13:47:36 -0400
Subject: Re: G.M. Trivia

> money men.  However his name did not go with the company.  Henry
Leland was > a principal in this now unnamed automotive venture, and
shortly the 1st Ford > became Cadillac.

This is debatable.  Ford, while with the soon to be defunct Detroit
Automobile Company, only produced about 2 cars, considered to be
prototypes. Cadillac had their first car running by October 1902.  FMC
wasn't organized until June 1903, and production of the Model A began in
July.  While the Model A Cadillac did have similarities with the Ford
counterpart, it should be noted that both were in the traditional
American 'buggy-runabout' style with high ground clearance and chain
drive.  Their common ancestor was the Curved Dash Olds.  The first Ford
and Cadillac differed in the areas of number of cylinders, frame design,
springs (full vs. semi elliptic), and spring mountings.  Cadillac used
the Leland engine, and its cars were built and engineered at Leland &
Faulconer.  At this time, the key to Cadillac's success was Leland's
precision manufacturing and engineering, not their physical appearance.

Kevin Wong

------------------------------

From: Lotus_Mail_Exchange_at_AMS-DENMAILHUB1@mail.amsinc.com
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:26:00 -0400
Subject: NON-DELIVERY of: oldsmobile-digest V1 #362

                           Delivery Failure Report

                               Your document:
                          oldsmobile-digest V1 #362
                         could not be delivered to:
                      CN=Andy Mikesell/OU=AMS/O=AMSINC
                                  because:
  Error transferring to AMS_LEEDS_MAIL_1/AMSSRV/AMSINC mail.box; Unable
to
                             find path to server
                                Routing path:

CN=AMS_MCIG_GATE_1/OU=AMSSRV/O=AMSINC,CN=AMS_Denver_Hub_1/OU=AMSSRV/O=AM
S

INC,CN=AMS_Denver_Hub_1/OU=AMSSRV/O=AMSINC,CN=AMS_MCIG_GATE_1/OU=AMSSRV/
O
                =AMSINC,CN=AMS_MCIG_GATE_1/OU=AMSSRV/O=AMSINC


  To:       oldsmobile-digest@chebucto.ns.ca at
AMS-Internet@CCMAIL-TIGWEST
  cc:
  From:     oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca at AMS-Internet@CCMAIL-TIGWEST
  Date:     11-12-96 09:26:00 AM
  Subject:  oldsmobile-digest V1 #362



  (See attached file: TextItem.txt)

  (See attached file: RFC822.TXT)


oldsmobile-digest        Tuesday, 12 November 1996     Volume 01 :
Number 362


- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Roger M. Borlase" <BORLASE@gordonc.edu>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 15:55:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Setting the Pace

>Maybe they are sending the books out in alphabetical order by last
name. >That would explain why Greg BEAULIEU has one and Bryce SMITH
doesnt. Has

But, I, Roger BORLASE haven't...

>They could also be shipping to blocks of members based on OCA member
>number. There are alot of members in OCA, it will probably take some
time >to get them all covered.

That's probably it.  I'm in the 23K range, but the member id gives a
great index and primary key on the database.

Roger Borlase
'72 Cutlass Cruiser.
Comp Sci major.
http://www.cs.gordonc.edu

- ------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 15:55:22 -0400
Subject: Re: G.M. Trivia -- Sorry, Greg!

>This, err,
>gentleman's posts were just rubbing me the wrong way, both the
patronizing way >he's been posting the G.M. questions -- good trivia
questions though they >are -- and that rather long-winded thesis of his.
I got a little snippy.

I second that motion!

- - --
Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS
dpauliso@gate.net

- ------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 16:02:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Interior colors

Dave Paulison wrote:
> You're talking about the interior molding on the A-pillars, right?
One on

Yes.

> each side of the windshield?  Yes, they had light blue.  The ones I
took out > of that '68 convertible were light blue, as was the rest of
the interior.

How strange that I have a white headliner (basket weave), white
upholstery
(dot-diamond), black carpetting and dash (and part of the door panel)
with blue
moldings.  How odd!!!

Chris Sparks
68 442

- ------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 14:47:27 -0400
Subject: Re[2]: G.M. Trivia

> 3. What was the last G.M. car division to use a V8 for car production,
even > though they did build a V8 in the WWI period?  Why didn't they
use this > early V8 for their auto production?  What year did they
finally get around > to using one?

Shouldn't this question be in reference to OHV V-8s?

If not, Olds had a flat head V-8 in 1916 to 1917.

For the answers to this and most other Olds and some GM trivia
questions, read _Setting the Pace_.

David Brown   Mailto:dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu
Olds FAQ 2.0 at: http://www.en.com/users/thall/
                 ftp://arl.arizona.edu/lists/olds

- ------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 16:02:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Chevy vs Olds

At 11:38 PM 11/8/96 -0400, Ryan Hehn wrote:
>Lately I've been hearing a lot of anti-Chevy sentiment.  I find this
>interesting since the feelings are almost as strong as the anti-Ford
>ones that I read...

Yea tell me about it. I have a hard time understanding the anti-Chevy
sentiment myself. Cannibalism if you ask me.....Everyone in the GM mix
should band together, not fight like brother and sister:)
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com) or (jlabay@kent.edu)
Sports Administration graduate student at Kent State University
88 Camaro Iroc-Z/28...see it in the December issue of Chevy High
Performance 80 Olds 4-4-2  W-30.... see it at
http://www.442.com/labay.html

- ------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 16:07:32 -0400
Subject: Re: 68 Olds Service Manual

Barnacle Bill wrote:

Thanks for the information.

Chris Sparks
68 442

- ------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 16:14:43 -0400
Subject: Re: G.M. Trivia

Hey gang,

I have seen several pictures of 68 442 with the metal letters 442 on
the front grille.  Mine didn't seem to have this.  Were they there
originally.

Chris Sparks
68 442

- ------------------------------

From: zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 15:18:23 -0400
Subject: 442 year

I saw a nice looking (for this model) 442 driving around town today.  It
 is mid-70's e.g. '74 or '75 maybe, and it is gold on black.  What year
is this?  Or is it a fake, it certainly looked good if it was.  The car
was mint, and looked like it'd never had any major body work.  Sounded
good too!  Just curious.

Thanks,
Peace, Goodwill, and Happy Oldsmobilling,
Clayton Pierce,
zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu

- ------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 16:36:39 -0400
Subject: Setting the Pace

The total rumor is that all of the Oldsmobile clubs members are going to
receive it.  Olds, Old Olds, Curved Dash etc.  Also they did compare
databases and if you belong to more than one of the Oldsmobile clubs you
should only receive one copy.

So they may be doing them pure alphabetically, alphabetically by club,
or at random.  But I guarantee it's worth the wait.

Cliff Feiler
via Oldsmobile

P.S. On the matter of installing shop and service manuals as a club
service; I'll bet that it can be done; and right on Oldsmobiles web site
too.

All it would take is the right person calling the right person.  It
would benefit Olds because they could follow product interest, reduce
the number of printed books that they would need to handle, and if Olds
did it it would not cause any copyright problems.  Also copyright laws
have changed in the last few years to what I don't know, but a long time
ago they were good for 17 years renewable for another 17; which would
have meant that those from '62 and older would now be in the public
domain; which they very well might be.  However, as long as Oldsmobile
is using its name, the rights to which you cannot acquire, at least
until they go out of business.  It would take some might handy editing
to remove.  Any pattent attorneys reading this, wishing to dispense the
gospel.

And If anyone knows the right first person to do the initial
inquires!!!!

- ------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 16:43:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Chevy vs Olds

At 04:02 PM 11/11/96 -0400, you wrote:
>At 11:38 PM 11/8/96 -0400, Ryan Hehn wrote:
>>Lately I've been hearing a lot of anti-Chevy sentiment.  I find this
>>interesting since the feelings are almost as strong as the anti-Ford
>>ones that I read...
>
>Yea tell me about it. I have a hard time understanding the anti-Chevy
>sentiment myself. Cannibalism if you ask me.....Everyone in the GM mix
>should band together, not fight like brother and sister:)
>- - - - - - - - - - -
>Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com) or (jlabay@kent.edu)
>Sports Administration graduate student at Kent State University
>88 Camaro Iroc-Z/28...see it in the December issue of Chevy High
Performance >80 Olds 4-4-2  W-30.... see it at
http://www.442.com/labay.html > > > > I believe that I agree with you
110%.  And I guess I'm at least one of several that has contributed
something to this contraversy; but your fairly well stated my position
too.

And Ford might build a satisfactory vehicle.  So far all they nead to
learn is how to pour cast iron satisfactorily; and put a DELCO
electrical system in their cars.

Cliff Feiler
On this day 4
Oldsmobiles

- ------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 16:48:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Re[2]: G.M. Trivia

At 02:47 PM 11/11/96 -0400, you wrote:
>> 3. What was the last G.M. car division to use a V8 for car
production, even >> though they did build a V8 in the WWI period?  Why
didn't they use this >> early V8 for their auto production?  What year
did they finally get around >> to using one? > >Shouldn't this question
be in reference to OHV V-8s? > >If not, Olds had a flat head V-8 in
1916 to 1917. > >For the answers to this and most other Olds and some GM
trivia questions, read >_Setting the Pace_. > >David Brown
Mailto:dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu >Olds FAQ 2.0 at:
http://www.en.com/users/thall/ >
ftp://arl.arizona.edu/lists/olds > > > > No sir you've gotten the
question backwards.  What was the last GM division, not the earliest;
which I think was Cadillac, to get around to using a V8 in their
automobiles.  The question did not stipulate OHV or flathead.  Oakland
had them in the late 20's, Chevy in 1917-18, Cadillac by 1917, you've
indicated Olds, Pontiac in 1932; which of course leaves Buick in 1953.

The Wiz

- ------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 16:36:30 -0400
Subject: Re[2]: Chuck Morgan on the list? (Olds in CC)

What are all the complaints about?  The guy must not have been able to
afford another $500 after the $12,000 restoration.

I'm starting a heresy mail list . . . :]

David Brown   Mailto:dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu
Olds FAQ 2.0 at: http://www.en.com/users/thall/
                 ftp://arl.arizona.edu/lists/olds

- - ------------
On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, buehner wrote:

>      Dec's Car Craft has an Olds in it!!!  Reader's rides, p.69.  All
looks > great, until the line of "Chevy 350 powerred...) but at least
there's an
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Olds in there!

Oh, man.... :(

Why doesn't this surprise me? Sheesh...


Greg Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia,
Canada

- ------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 16:57:30 -0400
Subject: Re: G.M. Trivia

At 04:14 PM 11/11/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Hey gang,
>
>I have seen several pictures of 68 442 with the metal letters 442 on
>the front grille.  Mine didn't seem to have this.  Were they there
>originally.

If it was a 442, it should have had the emblem right smack in the middle
of the grille.  They're available from Year One (repro) for $43.50, and
from Fusicks (repro) for $36.50.


- - --
Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS
dpauliso@gate.net

- ------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 16:51:07 -0400
Subject: Re: 442 year

>I saw a nice looking (for this model) 442 driving around town today.
It >is mid-70's e.g. '74 or '75 maybe, and it is gold on black.  What
year is >this?

Um... quick reference (if you can remember what the nose looked like):

1973: Single round headlamps, wraparound turn signal/side markers below
bumper

1974: Single round headlamps; turn signals inboard of headlamps and set
off from grille (body color completely surrounds turn signals); separate
side markers

1975: Single round headlamps; tall, thin turn signals now enclosed in
outermost segment of grille on each side; separate side markers

1976-1977: Quad rectangular headlamps

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

- ------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 17:00:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Setting the Pace

>P.S. On the matter of installing shop and service manuals as a club
service; >I'll bet that it can be done; and right on Oldsmobiles web
site too.

That would probably be the _only_ site with even a chance...

>All it would take is the right person calling the right person.  It
would >benefit Olds because they could follow product interest, reduce
the number >of printed books that they would need to handle, and if Olds
did it it would >not cause any copyright problems.

Well, yes and no; I mean, I agree with you that it would be a great
idea, but Olds sells those things for money, and they know darn well
that they don't get paid if some Olds fan sneaks into his office on the
weekend and downloads all Olds' service manual web pages to his printer.
I suspect they're just as protective of their really old manuals as they
are of their contemporary ones, although if they are to persuaded to put
_any_ of this on their web pages, I'd assume it would be publications
which are long out of print. Still, I hate to be a pessimist but I would
not stand on one foot waiting for this to happen.

And from a technical point of view, the best you'd get would be graphic
scans of entire pages, unless someone keyboards all the information and
scans the graphics separately. I venture to guess that the majority of
the info we're interested in does not exist in electronic form, and that
which is stored digitally may require conversion to a web-friendly form
such as HTML or PDF.

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

- ------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 17:13:01 -0400
Subject: Re: 70 442 W-30 VIN


...However, I seem to remember reading in this list, that all W30s have
a X in the VIN.  Is this correct...

          Not quite.  The "X" in the VIN designates a W-30 for the
          1972 model year only.  1972 was the first year in which the
          specific engine was coded into the VIN; prior years only
          designated 6 or 8 cylinders.  Short of finding the build
          sheet hidden somewhere in the car, there is no foolproof way
          of proving that a 1970 442 was, in fact, a W-30.  Certainly,
          if all of the factory-installed equipment is in place (red
          inner fenders, "F" heads, aluminum intake, posi, rally pack,
          sport mirrors, "OW" trans (if automatic), manual brakes,
          W-25 hood, and properly coded carb and distributor), the
          odds are quite high that the car is an original factory
          W-30, however keep in mind that it is theoretically possible
          for someone to have installed all of this equipment in an
          attempt to fake it.  On the other hand, locating,
          purchasing, and installing all of this hardware would have
          been so expensive that it would have been more cost
          effective just to buy a real W-30 - making highly unlikely
          that the car is a fake.

          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

- ------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 09:07:09 -0400
Subject: Resto tip.

     Okay, this one isn't so much about restoring your car as it is
     restoring yourself.

     My dad is a distributor for shops supplies (among lots of other
stuff)
     and had a product for me to try that he said his customers have
been
     giving rave reviews.  It's called Travabon special skin protective
     cream.  The tube advertises that it "Protects against oil-based
     hazards".  You put this stuff on (like any other hand lotion)
before
     you start, and when you're done your hands wash off much more
easily
     and get much cleaner than without it.  It *really* works, I was
very
     impressed!  This is great news for me because I'm the kind of guy
that
     just has to use his hands, I've tried all kinds of gloves and end
up
     taking them off in frustration.  Not to mention that I have rough
     hands that are hard to clean and my other half isn't exactly turned
on
     by dirty fingernails.

     I don't know where you could find the product locally, but perhaps
you
     can call the manufacturer and ask.  It's made by Stockhausen, Inc.
and
     the number on the tube is 800-334-0242.

     Tom Lentz
     tlentz@teknon.com

- ------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 17:25:07 -0400
Subject: Re: G.M. Trivia

Dave Paulison wrote:
>
> At 04:14 PM 11/11/96 -0400, you wrote:
> >Hey gang,
> >
> >I have seen several pictures of 68 442 with the metal letters 442 on
> >the front grille.  Mine didn't seem to have this.  Were they there
> >originally.
>
> If it was a 442, it should have had the emblem right smack in the
middle of > the grille.  They're available from Year One (repro) for
$43.50, and from > Fusicks (repro) for $36.50.

Thanks Dave.

Chris Sparks

- ------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 17:33:37 -0400
Subject: Re: 70 442 W-30 VIN

Hey Joe,
>           Not quite.  The "X" in the VIN designates a W-30 for the
>           1972 model year only.  1972 was the first year in which the
>           specific engine was coded into the VIN; prior years only
>           designated 6 or 8 cylinders.  Short of finding the build
>           sheet hidden somewhere in the car, there is no foolproof way
>           of proving that a 1970 442 was, in fact, a W-30.  Certainly,
>           if all of the factory-installed equipment is in place (red
>           inner fenders, "F" heads, aluminum intake, posi, rally pack,
>           sport mirrors, "OW" trans (if automatic), manual brakes,
>           W-25 hood, and properly coded carb and distributor), the
>           odds are quite high that the car is an original factory
>           W-30, however keep in mind that it is theoretically possible
>           for someone to have installed all of this equipment in an
>           attempt to fake it.  On the other hand, locating,
>           purchasing, and installing all of this hardware would have
>           been so expensive that it would have been more cost
>           effective just to buy a real W-30 - making highly unlikely
>           that the car is a fake.

Would it be so bad that if a person did upgrade their vehicle to a
have all of the above?  Stating that it is a fake is a very strong
statement.  I feel that if a person would go to such an extreme, then
if they want to believe its a W-30 then so be it.  Wouldn't this
upgraded car be effectively the same as a W-30?  I am knew to the world
of automotive accuracy.  Please excuse any ignorance on my part.

Chris Sparks
68 442

- ------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 17:31:52 -0400
Subject: Re: '82 to 84 88/98 Engine Swap

The answers to this and other trivia are available on the trivia Mail
List Server.

Lets see if you know this one.  What is the address of the trivia Mail
List Server?  I'm waiting!

David Brown   Mailto:dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu
Olds FAQ 2.0 at: http://www.en.com/users/thall/
                 ftp://arl.arizona.edu/lists/olds

- - -----------------
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>

- ------------------------------

From: Brad Nicholson <76062.3042@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 17:56:12 -0400
Subject: MD Olds Club 2nd Meeting - 12/7/96

   The "second" meeting of the Oldsmobile Centennial Club will be on
Saturday December 7 down near BWI airport in Hanover, MD.
   The first meeting had about 9 people show up and there are around 40
people currently interested.  We will be discussing bylaws and maybe the
club's first event.  Also, I will have spoken w/ at least 2 dealers
about support.   As of today, I know that NE OCA Zone director JoAnne
Lattore, the Blue/Grey Chapter and Capital City Rockets chapter are OK
w/ the club's formation.
   Anyone interested in joining, or know of someone who might be
interested, dropme some e-mail.  I'll have directions to the meeting
next week.

 ---
| | |  Brad Nicholson
| | |  1987 442 W-42
|/|\|  1994 Eighty Eight LSS
| | |  76062.3042@compuserve.com
 ---

- ------------------------------

From: Brad Nicholson <76062.3042@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 17:56:13 -0400
Subject: The 307 blues

My experiences w/ the 307 in my '87 442 is
1) on my 3rd water pump
2) heater valve (exiting) @ 60k
3) intake manifold gaskets went @ 100k
4) 200R4 trans went up @ 120k
5) Radiator @ 135k
6) Power antenea @ 75k
7) Paint - Spring of '97

When the gaskets went, I smelled antifreeze when driving and the level
in the radiator didn't go below the top of the engine block.  I didn't
have any exterior clues.  One thing to try if you take the intake off is
some kind of gaskets i think called "Torque Plus".  They have a wire
mesh in the opening that is suppose to atomoze the air/fuel mixture even
more torque.  I have a friend that is running them and doesn't see any
real improvement, since he also did some other things to the engine
also, he didn't do things piece by piece.  Later

 ---
| | |  Brad Nicholson
| | |  1987 442 W-42
|/|\|  1994 88 LSS
| | |  76062.3042@compuserve.com
 ---

- ------------------------------

From: Brad Nicholson <76062.3042@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 17:56:15 -0400
Subject: CCR Meeting - This Wed 11/13/96

The next meeting of the Capitol City Rockets Chapter of the Oldsmobile
Club of America will be:

*****   November 13 @ Davis Library, Montgomery County MD
(IMPORTANT ELECTION MEETING - Please come and vote if you can make it)
Bring your election ballot if you have not already sent it in.

Other stuff will be on the adgenda - like what stuff to do next year.
Anyone who wants to come & check us out are welcome
Need info or directions, drop me a line

 ---
| | | Brad Nicholson
| | | 1987 442 W-42
|/|\| 1994 Eighty Eight LSS
| | | 76062.3042@compuserve.com
 ---

- ------------------------------

From: Bradley Otto <BradOtto@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 16:56:23 -0400
Subject: Re: My new project!

At 11:52 AM 11/11/96 +0000, you wrote:
>Well this weekend my wife and I drove home her new car, an Impala SS,
1995. >There's 2 good things about this. 1) She originally wanted a
Toyota, I took >her to the Olds dealer first but she didn't like
anything there, (she's got a >lot of other great attributes even though
she doesn't like any of the new >Olds), so at least she got a GM
product. It's pretty impressive for a large >car. 2) I'm using it this
week to tow MY new 1968 442 convertible home from 2 >hours away. It's
all blue inside and out even the top, mild rust and >inoperable engine
and trans. Numbers don't match on the motor, so I'll throw >a 455 in
there. (Still have that 403 A block sitting on the floor in the
>garage.) Guy's asking $2500.00, what do y'all think?? I'll see if I can
get >him down a bit anyway, haven't looked at the car yet, so I hope
after driving >2 hours pulling a car trailer it pans out well!! Wish me
luck. > >Phil De Simone >desimonep@aol.com >1968 Olds Cutlass "S"
Convertible >1967 Chevy Truck >1985 Chevy Camaro Z28 383 >1995 Chevy
Impala SS > >

Phil,

I have a 400 cid "G" motor out of a '68 442 that I am going to sell.
Let me know if you're interested.

Brad Otto
'69 442 Convertible
4 Speed, 3.91 diff


- ------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 21:10:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Rust repair

Dave Paulison wrote:
>
> Hey folks!
> I won't be making a permanent fix (like welding in new metal), only a
> temporary one, but I do want it to last as long as possible, and look
> decent.  What is the best stuff to use?  Bondo?  Fiberglass?

Fiberglass is better than Bondo for repairs.  Bondo and other fillers
should be used only to smooth off the reapired surface.

> I've had some experience using Bondo, but never used fiberglass
before.

Much the same as far as mixing and applying though it is goopier.

> I've seen fiberglass repairs that really look like crap, all nasty and
 > bulging.  I've seen (and done) bondo repairs that, well, you almost >
couldn't see.  But fiberglass seems more durable.  Can it look decent?

Of course.  Most problems are because of poor preparation or poor
finishing.  Make sure you have removed all the rusted metal and paint on
 the surface to be repaired.  You also need to make sure you have
sealed the fiberglass edges to prevent water infiltration.  Don't just
sand it off and leave the raw edges exposed.

If you can get at the back of the area, sand to bare metal, apply a thin
 coating of fiberglass resin, then tack and spread the cloth over the
hole with enough overlap to the metal for a secure bond.  Roller or
squigee additional resin over the cloth until it's saturated.  Let this
set up then lightly sand to remove rough edges.  Recoat with resin to
seal any loose fibers (prevents wicking).  Fill and finish the other
side with Bondo or other filler then use a good primer to finish the
seal.

If you can't get at the back then your going to have to depress the
edges of the holes so the fiberglass with have enough surface to bond
to without being sanded off when you smooth off the repair.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- - --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

- ------------------------------

From: Dennis Sytsma <dsytsma@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 18:09:01 -0400
Subject: parts for 98 LS (fwd)

Dennis Sytsma
dsytsma@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us


- - ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 13:14:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis Sytsma <dsytsma@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
To: oldsmoblie@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: parts for 98 LS

Hello;
I own a 70 98 LS. Hurricane Andrew dented the Front Left Fender, and the
 Left rear Quarter Panel.  I need replacement fender and quarter panel.
I also need a cruise control servo vacume canister. please reply
privatly to me.


Dennis Sytsma
dsytsma@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us

- ------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 18:23:25 -0400
Subject: Re[2]: Delco-Remy Voltage Regulator

What about swapping the internals of the new into the old?  I haven't
done this so maybe I'm way off base.  This could be a lot of work.

David Brown   Mailto:dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu
Olds FAQ 2.0 at: http://www.en.com/users/thall/
                 ftp://arl.arizona.edu/lists/olds

- - ------------
On Sat, 9 Nov 1996 BobH592058@aol.com wrote:
> Dave Paulison Wrote:
> >>Hah!  I found an original Delco/Remy voltage regulator on a Cutlass
in the > junkyard.  Cool!  Now I just have to clean up the cover,
repaint it, and put > the cover on my voltage regulator!  Then I'll have
that "original" looking > voltage regulator.  Neat.<< > > Good luck.
Been there, done that.  Then found out the screw holes were > different
on the covers.  Bummer.  I hope you fare better than I did.

Yeah, tell me about it. I have 2 original style Delco-Remy regulator
covers here, neither of which will fit the aftermarket regulator.  I
hear that a new Delco regulator will take these covers but I have never
tried it.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia,
Canada

- ------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 18:28:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Delco-Remy Voltage Regulator

On Mon, 11 Nov 1996, David Brown wrote:
> What about swapping the internals of the new into the old?  I haven't
done > this so maybe I'm way off base.  This could be a lot of work.

I don't see how it could be easily done. The problem I had when i tried
it on mine wasn't the screw holes... it was that the guts of the new
regulator were ever-so-slightly bigger than the old, and therefore
wouldn't fit.

Having said that, my Buick had a replacement brand-x solid-state
regulator on it when I bought it. In the interest of originality, and
not knowing any better at the time, I bought one of those regulator
covers from Year One. It ctually fit over the solid-state one with no
problem, or so I thought. However, about 3 months later the regulator
failed and I don't know if it was related to changing the cover or not.

I think I'd just buy a new Delco regulator and be done with it.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia,
Canada

- ------------------------------

From: Kevin Wong <yu135008@yorku.ca>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 18:33:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Heresy?

> 5,000+ miles oil changes with non-diesel approved oil.  Ouch!  300,000
 > mile Olds diesels I know about received severe duty maintenence -
pretty > much needed to make any motor last 200,000+.  I bet the
Mercedes cost a > bit more than the Olds.

My neighbour's "dealer serviced" '79 300SD used to *SPEW* blue smoke at
130,000 miles - long after the turbo died.  This was shortly before they
got rid of it due to severe rust.  For the price of that car, they
could've had about 3 Olds diesels.  The Mercedes diesel may indeed be
more durable than the Olds equivalent, however, what about Mercedes gas
engines?

Kevin Wong

- ------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 18:36:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Setting the Pace

On Mon, 11 Nov 1996, Roger M. Borlase wrote:
> >Maybe they are sending the books out in alphabetical order by last
name. > >That would explain why Greg BEAULIEU has one and Bryce SMITH
doesnt. Has > But, I, Roger BORLASE haven't...

OK, it isn't alphabetical then...

> >They could also be shipping to blocks of members based on OCA member
> >number. There are alot of members in OCA, it will probably take some
time > >to get them all covered. > That's probably it.  I'm in the 23K
range, but the member id gives a great > index and primary key on the
database.

Hate to destroy your theory but that isn't it either. My number is in
the 27K range so unless they are doing it in inverse order it isn't
that. FWIW, up here my friend Sandy Stewart in Prince Edward Island
(even more remote than Nova Scotia) received his on the same day I got
mine. My buddy Brian Smith who lives across town still hasn't got his.
Seems to be no pattern at all to it.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia,
Canada

- ------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 18:42:10 -0400
Subject: '68 disc brakes

Chris Sparks wrote:

>>BTW:  I was told that I had all drum brakes (yuch!)  I know that the
68 442's did come with disc brakes.  Is it costly to convert?  <<

'67-'68 Cutlass/442's did have available disc brakes.  For those two
years only the calpiers were of the 4-piston design a la 'vettes.  All
the 4-pistons did IMO was provide additional places to spring leaks,
make 'em a real bear to rebuild and because they are rare, expensive to
install. At the Atlanta OCA meet I saw one setup for '67-8 asking almost
$400 and that's before you start _trying_ to rebuild or purchase rebuilt
calipers, etc.

But, any 69-72 "A" body single piston setup will work with no
modifications.
 I was able to pick one '70 and one '71-2 setup in Atlanta.  The going
rate for all the pieces you need (spindles, calipers, disc brake unique
flex lines and frame mount, proportioning valve, maser cylinder/booster)
seems in the $100-$200 range.  I paid $125 each and had the pick of
several setups.  Look closely when you buy, I was amazed at how thin
several rotors were.  Can't imagine what "mechanic" did that work.

Expect to (you _should_) replace the master cylinder, flex lines, pads,
calipers with rebuilt units.  These pieces are pretty cheap these days.
I was told by a guy in the parts business that the master cylinder was
used by GM for a bunch of years and runs about $25.

So, if absoulte originality is not your main priority put in the more
readily available stuff.  It's certainly a lot safer.

>>

BTW:  Did a 68 442 come with a shoulder harness seat belt.  I sure miss
that too.

Chris Sparks
68 442

- - ------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 13:07:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Oil leaks

>BTW:  Did a 68 442 come with a shoulder harness seat belt.  I sure miss
>that too.<<

Yup, but don't expect the nice inertia reel systems you find today.  One
end literally bolted above the door over the windows just past the back
of the front seats.  Feel around and you will find the mounting and hole
right through the headliner.  All cars had the mount.  The end went into
another buckle. So you had to buckle twice and unbuckle twice plus store
the shoulder portion behind a little clip up over the front door.  Or
let it bounce all over the place taking little chips out of paint here
and there, inside and out.  Definitely an add-on engineering exercise.
'67 had 'em too.  Pretty rare since few folks ordered them.


Bob Handren        OCA/OCF# 7728
'67 W-30 Modified     '70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

Handren Associates, Inc.
FDA Medical Device Regulatory Affairs
Laser/Optical Radiation Safety
(407)365-6385

- ------------------------------

From: Greg Kalkhoff <gkalkhof@execpc.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 20:53:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Setting the Pace

Setting The Pacer's

I've been following this thread for a few days now and finally have to
pipe up.

I've only been a member of the OCA for less than a year. I believe my
1st anniversary would be this December. My last name starts with K,
(DUH) and I received my book over two (closer to 3) weeks ago.

Not sure where they were mailed from, even if that makes a difference.

Just my 2 copper slugs worth. Not that it means a danged thing!  (;

Sparky


- - --
Greg Kalkhoff                             See the Sparkmobile
AKA  "Sparky"                       http://www.442.com/kalkhoff.html
Milwaukee, WI

- ------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 18:41:44 -0400
Subject: What's real? (was: 70 442 W-30 VIN)

Hey Joe,
          ...<snip>...
Would it be so bad that if a person did upgrade their vehicle to a have
all of the above?  Stating that it is a fake is a very strong
statement.  I feel that if a person would go to such an extreme, then
if they want to believe its a W-30 then so be it.  Wouldn't this
upgraded car be effectively the same as a W-30?  I am knew to the world
of automotive accuracy.  Please excuse any ignorance on my part.

Chris Sparks
68 442
          Funny you should mention this.  I had actually written a few
          lines to this extent on my original post then thought better
          of it and deleted them before mailing.  I have mixed
          feelings about this.  If you did all of the above, you would
          have effectively built a "real" W-30, with all of the
          equipment and performance of a factory unit.  If you did
          this for your own use, great.  If you did this and tried to
          sell it as an original W-30, is it a fake or not?  I'd have
          to say yes, it is a fake, because there is some perceived
          value (at least, to some buyers) to having an "original", as
          opposed to  a "reproduction".  The line gets really fuzzy
          when the car gets restored.  It's highly unlikely that a
          restoration will use 100% NOS parts; is this now an
          original?  Does the replacement of major sheet metal, even
          if you use full panels with factory-type spot welds and
          proper lead body filler, constitute an "original" car?  What
          if you installed correct factory options which were
          available on the car when it was new, but were not
          originally ordered on the particular specimen you have (such
          as disc brakes, a four speed, or stereo)?  If you used all
          factory parts, is the car still original?  The next step, of
          course, is installing all of the W-30 parts, as noted above.
          Where do you draw the line?

          This gets even fuzzier when you start talking about cars
          modified by dealers or outside companies such as Hurst.  For
          the most part, these cars were built by hot rodders who took
          the factory-delivered cars and added a bunch of commercially
          available speed equipment or actually swapped motors (here
          I'm thinking more of the Yenko/Dana/Nickey Chevys and the
          Royal Pontiacs than I am of the Hurst/Olds).  Documentation
          was often nonexistant, making proof difficult and very
          valuable.

          The bounding case, in my opinion, are the "continuation
          Cobras" being built by Carroll Shelby (not to be confused
          with the 1997 Aurora-powered Shelby car).  These Cobras are
          supposedly being built on original 427 Cobra chassis built
          in 1966 but never used in production.  The chassis were all
          assigned serial numbers in 1966, so Shelby claims that the
          completed cars are actually 1966 427 Cobras, even though the
          bodies are all brand new and the other components are a
          mixture of old and new.  Are these, in fact, original 1966
          Cobras?  The US Government says "NO, they are new cars", and
          since they don't meet 1996 safety and emissions standards
          they cannot be street driven (well, not legally at least),
          yet they still sell for $500,000 (yes, half a million) each!
          You make the call.

          I guess the ultimate answer is that unless you're restoring
          vintage musclecars as a business, build the car the way you
          want it and have fun with it.  I've often thought about
          building the third 69 H/O convertible...

          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

- ------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 19:04:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Heresy?

At 06:33 PM 11/11/96 -0400, you wrote:
>> 5,000+ miles oil changes with non-diesel approved oil.  Ouch!
300,000 >> mile Olds diesels I know about received severe duty
maintenence - pretty >> much needed to make any motor last 200,000+.  I
bet the Mercedes cost a >> bit more than the Olds. > >My neighbour's
"dealer serviced" '79 300SD used to *SPEW* blue smoke at >130,000 miles
- long after the turbo died.  This was shortly before they >got rid of
it due to severe rust.  For the price of that car, they >could've had
about 3 Olds diesels.  The Mercedes diesel may indeed be >more durable
than the Olds equivalent, however, what about Mercedes gas >engines? >
>Kevin Wong > > > > > Good question, I don't know anything about M-B gas
engines.  Actually I prefer GM cars to any other.  My friend with the
M-B diesel is the the only one I know with one, so I can only speculate.

We had 5 '79-'80 Olds diesels at work.  None went 60,000 mi.  The
Cutlass was wrecked at about 1 year, so it really doesn't count.  The
four big cars all failed before 60,000 mi.  The '79 88 I have has a
brand new factory engine in it, with fewer than 3,000 mi.  I put it away
and forgot about it. It did get 25-27 mpg highway however, much better
than the usual 15-18 the equivalent gas car.  We changed oil often, the
theory was get ready to change the oil at 1000 miles with those cars,
and if not done at 2000 take it in and do it.  They never went farther
than 2000 mi without new oil and filter.

Of course we had out own shop, and bought motor oil by the semi-trailer
load.  Three of the four died with a disintagrated rear mail bearing
cap. The fourth swallowed a valve.  All save for the one I still have,
received replacement gasoline engines, which ran them all past 100,000
miles were we would usually pass them down to the kids in the family.  I
don't think anyone ever traded in a used car.  Nice for the kids.

I don't believe any propaganda from any source that would relate any
story that the Olds diesels were anything but a disaster, which was very
unfortunate.  As I for one would still be driving one if they were as
serviceable as their gasoline cars.

Cliff Feiler
1984 Delta 88 w/455
1979 Delta 88 w/diesel
1931 Patrician Sedan
1931 4-door sedan

- ------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 18:42:17 -0400
Subject: Setting the Pace

>>>>>From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 05:57:54 -0400
Subject: Setting the Pace

     Wasn't this book supposed to be sent out complimentary to all Olds
     Club members?  I'm a member of the OCA and H/OCA and haven't
received
     one yet.  Has everyone else out there got theirs or are other
people
     still waiting?  It sound like a great book and I'm anxious to read
it.

     Tom Lentz
     tlentz@teknon.com<<<<<<

Tom:

Got mine last week, several weeks after the mention first came up on
this list.  My guess is the US Postawful Service delievers them at their
maximim convenience.

Mine was pretty banged up, too.  No serious damage book it looked likr
it got here by way some other continent.

Bob Handren        OCA/OCF# 7728
'67 W-30 Modified     '70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

Handren Associates, Inc.
FDA Medical Device Regulatory Affairs
Laser/Optical Radiation Safety
(407)365-6385

- ------------------------------

From: Kevin Wong <yu135008@yorku.ca>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 19:37:37 -0400
Subject: Re: '82 to 84 88/98 Engine Swap

> I am considering installing an LT1 into a '82-'84 88/98? or a '94 to
'96 > Roadmaster?

Hmmm... are you talking about taking the LT1 out of a '94-'96 Roadmaster
and installing it in the 88/98?

> Consider it an automatic to automatic swap?  What is the best tranny?
A > 700R4 will come out, but (un)luckily it will have a BOPC flange, and
not a > Chevy, which I believe the LT1 will have.

I think the 700R4 only came with the Chevy bolt pattern.  Any '82-'84
4 speed Olds will have the 200-4R.  The '94-'96 Roadmaster uses a 4L60E
tranny, which is a descendent of the 4L60, which in turn was essentially
a renamed 700R4.

> Also as far as the tranny question is concerned, it will occasionally
pull > trailers long distances!

Any LT1 B/D car with the trailering package is equipped with a clutched
engine-driven fan, in place of one of the 2 electric units.

> I'm also considering taking the engine out of my Camry, and replacing
the > 455 in my 1984 Delta with it.  How will this change its
performance

Oh dear!  What's so great about Camry engines?  The only reason Camry's
get better gas mileage than full-size Olds is because they weigh less.
If you want the safety and comfort of a heavy vehicle, you have to pay
for it.

> A. What GM division repowered a U.S. tank.  No it isn't the twin
Detroit

The M-5 received a Cadillac V8 and Hydra-Matic in the spring of '41.

> 1. What GM expert caused ladies skirts to become forever shorter?
How? > Hint: the precursor to this invention, was the use of this same
area of > expertise to open cash register drawers.

Kettering in 1912, with his electric starter.

> Oakland had them in the late 20's, Chevy in 1917-18, Cadillac by 1917,

The Cadillac V8 was introduced in September 1914.

Kevin Wong

- ------------------------------

From: John and Elizabeth Gene <gene@cybernex.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 19:52:20 -0400
Subject: Re: TH 200-4R Governor Swap

I was just instructed to change the governor to solve my problem. My
transmission is presently stock. I will be installing a B&M transpak for
firmer shifts. It will also raise the shift point. I was just told the
most effective way to raise the shift points is to swap the governor. If
this is true which car had the type of governor I need? It now shifts at
about 4,000 and I'd like it to shift at 5,500. Any help would be
appreciated. Thanks. John Gene

1988 Olds Custom Cruiser w/1970 Rocket 350
1973 Chevrolet Impala - blues mobile/winter rat
1965 Impala - under construction

mailto:gene@cybernex.net
http://www2.cybernex.net/~gene/john.html


- ------------------------------

From: "Field Office" <jev114@psu.edu>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 20:05:50 -0400
Subject: Re: B/O/P 455's

- - ----------
> Does anyone have any information on the relative advantages and
> disadvantages of B/O/P  455 ci motors?  I am interested also in the
> weights and dimensions as I am considering installing a 455 in a 79
> Cutlass with significant suspensions mods..ie. PST front, Hotchkis
rear. > The car has been lowered as a result about 2 inches. It is my >
understanding that a Buick 455 with aftermarket intake manifold rivals >
the weight of a small block Chevy.  Any thoughts or suggestions on
making

> this install work will be greatly appreciated...What kind of problems
am > I likely to encounter. Will the B/O/P block clear the heater
assembly? > Thanks in advance. > Al > > >  "The Viking" >   PGP Public
Key Available by E-Mail Request

Well Viking i fit a Olds 455 in my 79..only prob was the heater/ac
assembly.
i had to modify it for the fit...basically all the ac stuff is gone, but
the heater
core retains it's original location...everything else fits nice! About
the motor decision...it just depends on what you want to do...I mean
Buick motors are very hard to get Hi-Po parts for...Olds and Pontaic
it's rather easy to get what you want

Later
Jeff

- ------------------------------

From: "Roger M. Borlase" <BORLASE@gordonc.edu>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 20:08:54 -0400
Subject: RE: The 307 blues

>My experiences w/ the 307 in my '87 442 is
>1) on my 3rd water pump
>2) heater valve (exiting) @ 60k
>3) intake manifold gaskets went @ 100k
>4) 200R4 trans went up @ 120k
>5) Radiator @ 135k
>6) Power antenea @ 75k
>7) Paint - Spring of '97

Its seems to be the consensus that the 307 is a piece of junk.  '72 350
7a heads seem to be the way to go.  Wait, that's what I've got in my
'72 Cutlass Wagon.  I've been offered $500 just for the motor, is this
a good deal?

I think I'm on my 2nd water pump and 2nd set of head and intake manifold
 gaskets.  Third thermostat too.  Oh well.  She's definitely cheaper
than a new wagon...

roger borlase
'72 cutlass cruiser

- ------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 20:20:54 -0400
Subject: Rules of Engagement

Gang, seems like every so often I have to remind folks of what is and is
 not appropo to post here. With all of the new members we get, it's not
 surprising I suppose.

Like in a lot of other areas of life, discussion of politics and
religion should not be carried on here. I was going to add Fords to
that list but ever since we discovered that the rear main seal from a
Ford 460 fits certain Olds engines I guess I can't say that anymore. :)
I happen to think we have one of the best automotive lists going with
some of the best members around. Of course, every time I say that
publicly like I did last week, it seems we have a dust-up here
immediately thereafter. Oh well... :)

We exist to deal with Oldsmobile-related discussion and so perhaps there
is sometimes a peripheral spillover into the political area, but I
cringe when I see posts like that pop up because it always seems that
someone somewhere is going to disagree, and then, as the saying goes,
"they're off!". I keep reminding folks that this is not a rec.autos
newsgroup environment where you can shoot from the lip and basically not
be concerned about the consequences. We all know each other here, and so
when people get upset with each other it is a little like watching a
family squabble. When that happens I don't like it.

So in brief, keep it on topic, keep it courteous, and if you disagree
with what someone says on a matter of non-Olds opinion, keep the
subsequent debate and correspondence private. If you're new here, you
might want to stay on the sidelines for a few days to get a feel for the
discussion and the individuals before posting an intro telling us about
you and your cars. Be sure to check out the sources of Olds info
mentioned in the intro message you received when you subscribed, since
both the Olds FAQ and Bryceman's Olds Page are great sources of answers
to many of your questions. That message also has guidelines for what is
and isn't appropriate to post to the list, and I encourage all new
members to read those. If you are unsure about things, feel free to drop
me a line, that's why I'm here. Remember, this should be a fun pastime
for us, not a source of distress, so nothing posted here should ever be
offered or taken in a personal way.

Finally, thanks to the members of the neatest automotive email list
going for your support!

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia,
Canada

- ------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 20:26:05 -0400
Subject: Re: '68 shoulder belts

The previously-mentioned spaghettiesque shoulder belts became standard
on '68s built on or after Jan. 1, 1968 by federal mandate. '68
Cutlasses built before that date did not have them as standard although
they were an option. My '68 was built in September '67 and does not
have them, while my friend Donnie's '68 W30 is a later car and has the
belts.

Wonder if you could take the external-mount inertia-reel belts from a
mid-70s GM and retrofit them to one of these cars?

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia,
Canada

- ------------------------------

From: nmichelli@acl.nyit.edu
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 20:49:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Maaco

Thank you for that advice. I hope it is not too late fot it because its
not right that I have to put up with a crap paint job because of them.
They should pay for the whole thing but right now I will settle for
half.

- ------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 21:00:40 -0400
Subject: Re: '82 to 84 88/98 Engine Swap

At 07:37 PM 11/11/96 -0400, you wrote:
>> I am considering installing an LT1 into a '82-'84 88/98? or a '94 to
'96 >> Roadmaster? > >Hmmm... are you talking about taking the LT1 out
of a '94-'96 Roadmaster >and installing it in the 88/98? > >> Consider
it an automatic to automatic swap?  What is the best tranny?  A >> 700R4
will come out, but (un)luckily it will have a BOPC flange, and not a >>
Chevy, which I believe the LT1 will have. > >I think the 700R4 only
came with the Chevy bolt pattern.  Any '82-'84 >4 speed Olds will have
the 200-4R.  The '94-'96 Roadmaster uses a 4L60E >tranny, which is a
descendent of the 4L60, which in turn was essentially a >renamed 700R4. >
>> Also as far as the tranny question is concerned, it will occasionally
pull >> trailers long distances! > >Any LT1 B/D car with the trailering
package is equipped with a clutched >engine-driven fan, in place of one
of the 2 electric units. > >> I'm also considering taking the engine out
of my Camry, and replacing the >> 455 in my 1984 Delta with it.  How
will this change its performance > >Oh dear!  What's so great about
Camry engines?  The only reason Camry's >get better gas mileage than
full-size Olds is because they weigh less.  If >you want the safety and
comfort of a heavy vehicle, you have to pay for it. > >> A. What GM
division repowered a U.S. tank.  No it isn't the twin Detroit > >The M-5
received a Cadillac V8 and Hydra-Matic in the spring of '41. > >> 1.
What GM expert caused ladies skirts to become forever shorter?  How? >>
Hint: the precursor to this invention, was the use of this same area of
>> expertise to open cash register drawers. > >Kettering in 1912, with
his electric starter. > >> Oakland had them in the late 20's, Chevy in
1917-18, Cadillac by 1917, > >The Cadillac V8 was introduced in
September 1914. > >Kevin Wong > > > > Yes thanks for the transmission
data vis a vis the LT1.

The Camry business was a joke, and was a small attempt at humor vis a
vis the Chryslet multi-bank engine in some of the M4 Sherman tanks.

Very good on the tank trivia question, you have a very close handle on
the G.M. tank, as it was indeed Cadillac.  The tank was the M5A1 Stuart,
and it actually received twin V8 Cadillacs and hydramatics.  A simular
drive package was used later in the M24 Chaffee light tank, and the
M19/M19A1 S.P. AA guns.

And again with Kettering and the electric starter is right on the mark.

Several people were aware of Buick as the last division to put a V8 into
their cars, apparently Cadillac was the first.

Again thanks for your help, and you have removed two of the GM trivia
questions from the unanswered.

Cliff Feiler
1984 Delta 88
1979 Delta 88
1931 Patrician
1931 4-door
Oldsmobiles all

- ------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 21:29:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Delco-Remy Voltage Regulator

>What about swapping the internals of the new into the old?  I haven't
done >this so maybe I'm way off base.  This could be a lot of work.

>> Dave Paulison Wrote:
>> >>Hah!  I found an original Delco/Remy voltage regulator on a Cutlass
in the >> junkyard.  Cool!  Now I just have to clean up the cover,
repaint it, and put >> the cover on my voltage regulator!  Then I'll
have that "original" looking >> voltage regulator.  Neat.<< >> >> Good
luck.  Been there, done that.  Then found out the screw holes were >>
different on the covers.  Bummer.  I hope you fare better than I did.

Well, my Delco-Remy cover *will* fit my regulator, but the cover doesn't
look good, too rusty, so I'm not gonna use it.  Oh, well.
- - --
Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS
dpauliso@gate.net

- ------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 21:31:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Delco-Remy Voltage Regulator

>I think I'd just buy a new Delco regulator and be done with it.
>
>Greg Beaulieu

Probably the easiest way to do it...
- - --
Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS
dpauliso@gate.net

- ------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 21:36:21 -0400
Subject: Re: '68 disc brakes

>But, any 69-72 "A" body single piston setup will work with no
modifications. > I was able to pick one '70 and one '71-2 setup in
Atlanta.  The going rate >for all the pieces you need (spindles,
calipers, disc brake unique flex lines >and frame mount, proportioning
valve, maser cylinder/booster)

Do you need a different master cylinder?  Do the ones for the front disc
cars have a different internal construction?  If (when) I convert to
front discs, can I use my new drum brake master cylinder?

- - --
Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS
dpauliso@gate.net

- ------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 21:51:08 -0400
Subject: '68 A-pillar trim

Does anyone know if the A-pillar stainless trim (on the outside of the
A-pillar) on a '68 Cutlass convertible is unique to the convertible?  Or
is it the same as the '68 hardtops?

Thanks!
- - --
Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS
dpauliso@gate.net

- ------------------------------

From: "Edward O'Malley" <viperle@xnet.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 00:25:55 -0400
Subject: Re: '72 front end stuff

Chris Sparks wrote:
>
> Sorry for my ignorance but what in the heck is NOS?
>
> Chris Sparks
> 68 442New Old Stock, origianl parts (not reproductions)

- ------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 23:00:13 -0400
Subject: Johnny Lightning

Was at a local department store today looking for the Ertl models (Toys
R Us doesn't have 'em yet) and ran across some more Johnny Lightning
Pace Cars.
 I've already bought sets 1, 2 and 3, but these are marked Collector's
Editions and are in the original pace car colors.  Was only able to get
the '70 and '74 Cutlasses, both in white, unfortunately there was no '77
Delta, but there must be some around, as these were not in the store a
couple weeks ago when I was looking for the latest set (#3).

Also saw a Johnny Lightning Muscle Car set at WalMart with the '69
Hurst/Olds in the correct white with the gold stripes.  They want $24.95
for the set.
 Are the white Hursts rare?  Can't see paying $25 for a set of 12 when I
only want one, unless the white ones are worth a lot themselves.

Haven't been able to get the Ertls yet though. :(

Paul
Patiently waiting

- ------------------------------

From: DESIMONEP@aol.com
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 23:10:19 -0400
Subject: Re: What's real?

In a message dated 96-11-11 18:06:53 EST, you write:

> I guess the ultimate answer is that unless you're restoring
>            vintage musclecars as a business, build the car the way you
 >            want it and have fun with it.  I've often thought about >
building the third 69 H/O convertible... > >            Joe
Padavano >            jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

And I've been considering building the ONLY 1968 H/O CONVERTIBLE!! Not
to fool a prospective buyer, just because I think it would be a lot of
fun doing it, and since I have a car that is not very rare, (a Cutlass
"S" Convertible, so I wouldn't be destroying an original W-30 or 442), I
believe it's OK. To me this is all about FUN!

Phil De Simone
desimonep@aol.com

- ------------------------------

From: mike.blankenship@medaphis.com
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 23:38:36 -0400
Subject: Re: What's real?

A friend of mine is in the last stages of finishing his  "Ralleye 350"
convertible.  He took his plain green 70 cutlass supreme convt, and made
a very bright, attention getter. Long live sebring yellow!!!

Mike
66 442
69 H/o
70 Judge
70 W30 -sebring yellow
71 442 convt
- -
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

> I guess the ultimate answer is that unless you're restoring
>            vintage musclecars as a business, build the car the way you
 >            want it and have fun with it.  I've often thought about >
building the third 69 H/O convertible... > >            Joe
Padavano >            jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

And I've been considering building the ONLY 1968 H/O CONVERTIBLE!! Not
to fool a prospective buyer, just because I think it would be a lot of
fun doing it, and since I have a car that is not very rare, (a Cutlass
"S" Convertible, so I wouldn't be destroying an original W-30 or 442), I
believe it's OK. To me this is all about FUN!

Phil De Simone
desimonep@aol.com



- - -

- ------------------------------

From: Glenn Connors <gpc442@buffnet.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 18:58:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Setting the Pace

At 18:36 11/11/96 -0400, you wrote:
>On Mon, 11 Nov 1996, Roger M. Borlase wrote:
>> >Maybe they are sending the books out in alphabetical order by last
name. >> >That would explain why Greg BEAULIEU has one and Bryce SMITH
doesnt. Has >> But, I, Roger BORLASE haven't... > >OK, it isn't
alphabetical then... > >> >They could also be shipping to blocks of
members based on OCA member >> >number. There are alot of members in
OCA, it will probably take some time >> >to get them all covered. >>
That's probably it.  I'm in the 23K range, but the member id gives a
great >> index and primary key on the database. > >Hate to destroy your
theory but that isn't it either. My number is in the >27K range so
unless they are doing it in inverse order it isn't that. >FWIW, up here
my friend Sandy Stewart in Prince Edward Island (even more >remote than
Nova Scotia) received his on the same day I got mine. My >buddy Brian
Smith who lives across town still hasn't got his. Seems to be >no
pattern at all to it. > >Greg Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada >

   Having some knowledge of mass mailings it is very possible that it is
being done by country code first and then by zip code next.  (oh great,
another theory)   :~)

Glenn
'69 4-4-2

- ------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 00:04:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Interior colors

In a message dated 96-11-11 15:42:09 EST, you write:

> How strange that I have a white headliner (basket weave), white
>  upholstery
>  (dot-diamond), black carpetting and dash (and part of the door panel)
>  with blue
>  moldings.  How odd!!!
>
>  Chris Sparks
>  68 442
>

Have you posted your data plate information for us to decode?  Maybe the
interior color was changed by a previous owner.

Paul

- ------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 00:04:40 -0400
Subject: Re: G.M. Trivia

In a message dated 96-11-11 10:28:35 EST, you write:

> >> 4. What G.M. car division was started by Henry Ford?  (Yes the
Henry Ford.) >  > >  >Was it Oakland? >  > >  ><Big Snip> > >  You
better get a big snip, for you ain't got one right yet; no it wasn't >
Oakland. >

No, it wasn't Oakland, 'cause it was Cadillac instead.

Paul

- ------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 00:04:28 -0400
Subject: Dieselmania

In a message dated 96-11-11 03:57:53 EST, you write:

> I think you've missed a Cutlass V8, don't forget the forgettable,
'81's >  still had a diesel!

Yes, I know, I was trying to leave those out.  The Diesel was actually
available in all the Abody lines in '81.  We got suckered into a
leftover, demonstrator Cutlass Supreme Diesel in the fall of '81.
Actually, we didn't get suckered, my Dad really wanted one bad!  So we
bought it.  Leaked oil from day one, among other things.  Went to
arbitration and won.  Got lots of money back.  Did you ever notice how
those Diesels don't like to stop when the engine stalls?  That's that
great HydroBoost system.  Did that trick once at a toll booth on I-95
around Richmond on a trip to Florida.  Great experience for a 16 year
old kid.  Sold it in '88 when the new Cutlass Ciera was ordered.

Paul
Closet Diesel Owner

Former Diesels:
81 Cutlass Supreme
81 GMC Sierra Classic (went almost 200k before the motor went to
pieces!) 79 Cadillac Eldorado (yeah, we were stupid enough to buy a
third one!)

- ------------------------------

From: WMACHINES@aol.com
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 00:15:29 -0400
Subject: Re: 70 442 W-30 VIN

In a message dated 96-11-11 10:11:20 EST, you write:

<< However, I
 seem to remember reading in this list, that all W30s have a X in the
VIN.
 Is
 this correct. Also is there any other way to tell if it is a real W-30.
I
 could not read the code on the engine. I am unsure what it should be.

 This is the information I have to check if it is correct.
  >>
The X in the vin only applies to 1972, when they changed the vin to
something like 3G87X.  The 344 says it is a 442, also the Th400
is a OW code.  Check the options such as the aluminum factory intake
that say Oldsmobile 455 and red wells and of course F heads.
68 to 71 W 30's are fairly easy to make up since there was no way to
look at the numbers of the car to determine if it had the W 30 option.
Just make sure it is a 442 with the vin stating 344 and look for
options.

W MACHINES (Mark Prince)

- ------------------------------

From: WMACHINES@aol.com
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 00:27:11 -0400
Subject: Re: 69 W-31 tranny code

In a message dated 96-11-11 14:38:50 EST, you write:

<< ut for 70's it lists JO as the W-31 transmission code.
 Can I assume that I have the correct transmission?  Also, what do the
350 and D
 stand for and where would the serial number be located?  Thank you in
advance
 for any information you can provide me. >>

The correct trans code is JO for series 32,3600 bodies. JL is the
regular Th350 with a 4bbl.   the serial number is located on the
passenger or right side of trans stamped in the governor cover.  The
code should read

                                    70
                             JO xxx
the xxx represents the day of production such as the 350th day of the
year Julian date

W MACHINES (Mark Prince)
(2) 72 442 W-30

- ------------------------------

From: WMACHINES@aol.com
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 00:32:26 -0400
Subject: Re: 442 year

In a message dated 96-11-11 16:08:42 EST, you write:

<<  saw a nice looking (for this model) 442 driving around town today.
It
 is mid-70's e.g. '74 or '75 maybe, and it is gold on black.  What year
is
 this?  Or is it a fake, it certainly looked good if it was.  The car
was
 mint, and looked like it'd never had any major body work.  Sounded good

 too!  Just curious.
  >>
The 442 badge did not end in 72 but were also made in 73,74,75,76,77 on
cutlass and 78,79 442 were on the Cutlass Salon style and 80 442 was
on the Cutlass Supreme then the badge did not appear until 85,86, and
87.  The last years were 90 and 91 done on the Cutlass Calais platform
via front wheel drive and driven by a quad 4.

W Machines

- ------------------------------

From: Christian Fair <cfair@fairisaac.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 21:06:24 -0400
Subject: Ring Gear Info

Oldsmopeople,
Looking for a little help on the following numbers/codes. Anything you
can pass along will help. The ring gear on my 12 bolt open rear end
has the following numbers stamped into it:

14A39  GM OP 2861  358

I know this is a 2.78 ratio, from the 14A39, but what does that other
stuff tell us about this gear set and rear end. It is resident right
now in my 66 98 convertible.

The story is I'm kicking around the idea of changing to a 3.08 or
factory optional 3.23 and want to have as much info on
interchangeability as possible as I begin the parts hunt.

Many thanks for whatever you can tell me.
Chris Fair

- ------------------------------

From: "Roger M. Borlase" <BORLASE@gordonc.edu>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 01:08:36 -0400
Subject: RE: Ring Gear Info

>14A39  GM OP 2861  358

OP is probably olds/pontiac

2861 is probably a part number

358 is probably a production date.

The 2.78 is a real shock.  More shocking is the standard ratio of 3.08
on the wagons, with 3.23 and 3.55 being optional.

- ------------------------------

From: Ken Pilidis <kpilidis@compusmart.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 02:02:19 -0400
Subject: Re: G.M. Trivia

At 12:04 AM 11/12/96 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 96-11-11 10:28:35 EST, you write:
>
>> >> 4. What G.M. car division was started by Henry Ford?  (Yes the
Henry >Ford.) >>  > >>  >Was it Oakland? >>  > >>  ><Big Snip> >> >>
You better get a big snip, for you ain't got one right yet; no it wasn't
>>  Oakland. >> > >No, it wasn't Oakland, 'cause it was Cadillac
instead. > >Paul > > >Wait, Didn't Leland start Cadillac?

Ken Pilidis

- ------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 07:50:25 -0400
Subject: Re: G.M. Trivia

> >> >> 4. What G.M. car division was started by Henry Ford?  (Yes the
Henry > >Ford.) > >>  > > >>  >Was it Oakland? > >>  > > >>  ><Big Snip> >
>> > >>  You better get a big snip, for you ain't got one right yet; no
it wasn't > >>  Oakland. > >> > > > >No, it wasn't Oakland, 'cause it
was Cadillac instead. > > > >Paul > > > > > >Wait, Didn't Leland start
Cadillac? > > Ken Pilidis

Ken,

I believe that Henry Ford started his second company w/backers who
wanted a luxury car while Henry wanted a people's car.  Henry decided to
get out & was able to take his name w/him.  Henry Leland was hired as
chief engineer of the old company with the new name of Cadillac.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

- ------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 02:02:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Setting the Pace

I've had mine for a month & I'm right in the middle of the alphabet -
???? and in California too (farthest state away - almost!) so dont know
their mailing order.




Lisa Madsen


<color><param>8080,0000,8080</param>Heavy Metal Forever - '67 Delta 88 &
'72 Vista Cruiser

</color>

Please E-Mail me at-----:
<bold><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>Lisa@hotglass.com

</color></bold>

My Web-Page-----:
<bold><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>http://exo.com/~jht/olds/</col
or></bold>

- ------------------------------

From: kissrulz@gnn.com (Craig Dobbins)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 23:53:15 -0400
Subject: Re: '68 A-pillar trim

Dave,
  If you mean the little 6-inch (or so) pieces down near the
headlight area;  they came on both Cutlass and 442.  The only piece
that is unique to the convertable is the long stainless trim piece
that continued from the rear quarter glass, down to the end of the
rear Q-panel.

Craig Dobbins
'68 442 Convertable.


>Date:  Mon, 11 Nov 1996 21:51:08 -0400
>From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
>Sender: oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca
>To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
>Subject: '68 A-pillar trim
>
>Does anyone know if the A-pillar stainless trim (on the outside of
the
>A-pillar) on a '68 Cutlass convertible is unique to the
convertible?  Or is
>it the same as the '68 hardtops?
>
>Thanks!
>--
>Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
>Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS
>dpauliso@gate.net
>
>

- ------------------------------

From: Kevin Wong <yu135008@yorku.ca>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 05:15:59 -0400
Subject: Re: G.M. Trivia

> > >Wait, Didn't Leland start Cadillac?
> >
> > Ken Pilidis
>
> Ken,
>
> I believe that Henry Ford started his second company w/backers who
> wanted a luxury car while Henry wanted a people's car.  Henry decided
to > get out & was able to take his name w/him.  Henry Leland was hired
as > chief engineer of the old company with the new name of Cadillac. > >
Bill Culp

Welcome back!  I've read that Ford, who was in charge of construction,
claimed his backers (the Murphy group) were in too much of a hurry to
make a profit, and in fine finger-pointing fashion, the Murphy group
alleged that all Ford wanted to do was build cars to race.  Ford
resigned, which lead to a series of events which resulted in a decision
to liquidate. Leland was called in to appraise the plant and equipment.
Recall that Leland & Faulconer had supplied engines to Olds; this
strengthened Leland's interest in the gasoline motor.  In the meantime,
Leland had developed an improved version, and the abandoned factory
presented an opportunity to make use of his engine.  His presentation to
the Murphy group was well received.  The company was reorganized and
named after the great French explorer who had founded Detroit 200 years
before.  The original arrangement was for Leland to produce engines,
transmissions, and steering gears, while Cadillac would supply the rest.
Leland was given a seat on the board around 1906.

Hmmmm...  so who founded Cadillac?  The chief engineer of the Detroit
Automobile Company and Henry Ford Company, which both failed in short
order?  The Murphy group, having supplied most of the capital?  Leland
for bringing his new engine and engineering excellence?  If one
considers the heart of a car to be the engine, then Leland would be the
obvious choice. The first Cadillac engine was derived from the Olds
unit; this amounted to what was probably the first ever thorough
"hot-rodding" - larger intake and exhaust valves & ports and a longer
duration camshaft.  Thus, a long inter-related chain of events which
will keep historians busy forever <g>.

Kevin Wong

- ------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 06:25:48 -0400
Subject: Re: G.M. Trivia

At 12:04 AM 11/12/96 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 96-11-11 10:28:35 EST, you write:
>
>> >> 4. What G.M. car division was started by Henry Ford?  (Yes the
Henry >Ford.) >>  > >>  >Was it Oakland? >>  > >>  ><Big Snip> >> >>
You better get a big snip, for you ain't got one right yet; no it wasn't
>>  Oakland. >> > >No, it wasn't Oakland, 'cause it was Cadillac
instead. > >Paul > > > Paul,

Very good, for Cadillac it was indeed.

The story goes, Henry Ford started the Ford Motor Company (the 1st one)
and began building cars.  He got into serious money trouble (seems like
this is the common thread to pioneer auto builders) and lost his company
to the money men.  However his name did not go with the company.  Henry
Leland was a principal in this now unnamed automotive venture, and
shortly the 1st Ford became Cadillac.  And next, of course, as most
everyone knows, Billy Durant acquired Cadillac for his GM empire.

Henry Ford soon started the 2nd Ford Motor Company, the one we have
today; but this is not quite the end of the story: Later, after WWI,
Henry Leland started another car venture that he called Lincoln.  There
was a bad recession in the us shortly after WWI (1922-1923), and Leland
found himself in trouble, and guess who helped him with his hat and coat
and sent him on his way?  Yep, Henry Ford...  Sounds like sweet revenge
to me.

Paul, good show.

Cliff Feiler
1984 Delta 88 w/455
1979 Delat 88 Diesel
1931 Patrician Sedan
1931 4-door

- ------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 06:34:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Dieselmania

At 12:04 AM 11/12/96 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 96-11-11 03:57:53 EST, you write:
>
>> I think you've missed a Cutlass V8, don't forget the forgettable,
'81's >>  still had a diesel! > >Yes, I know, I was trying to leave
those out.  The Diesel was actually >available in all the Abody lines in
'81.  We got suckered into a leftover, >demonstrator Cutlass Supreme
Diesel in the fall of '81.  Actually, we didn't >get suckered, my Dad
really wanted one bad!  So we bought it.  Leaked oil >from day one,
among other things.  Went to arbitration and won.  Got lots of >money
back.  Did you ever notice how those Diesels don't like to stop when
>the engine stalls?  That's that great HydroBoost system.  Did that
trick once >at a toll booth on I-95 around Richmond on a trip to
Florida.  Great >experience for a 16 year old kid.  Sold it in '88 when
the new Cutlass Ciera >was ordered. > >Paul >Closet Diesel Owner >
>Former Diesels: >81 Cutlass Supreme >81 GMC Sierra Classic (went almost
200k before the motor went to pieces!) >79 Cadillac Eldorado (yeah, we
were stupid enough to buy a third one!) > > > Paul,

I've now read about 2/3rds of "Setting the Pace" and have gotten to the
diesel engine section.  According to Early and Walkingshaw they were
able to solve the disintgrating block problem, but not before the damage
was done.

I firmly believe that if they would have been a viable product, that
today the would hold a fair portion of the market.  But they needed to
be at least 100,000 mile serviceable at the beginning.

My dad was always a diesel man too, and the first one I ever saw has
his. Actually its the last one I ever saw too, as it currently resides
in my barn.  My dad had a new engine installed in it (factory new after
the first one failed.  At about 50,000 miles, the car has 53,000 now.
Dad died, and the car was put away.

Thanks for the update.

Cliff Feiler
1984 Olds
1979 Olds
2 1931 Olds'

- ------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 06:38:59 -0400
Subject: Re: G.M. Trivia

At 02:02 AM 11/12/96 -0400, you wrote:
>At 12:04 AM 11/12/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>In a message dated 96-11-11 10:28:35 EST, you write:
>>
>>> >> 4. What G.M. car division was started by Henry Ford?  (Yes the
Henry >>Ford.) >>>  > >>>  >Was it Oakland? >>>  > >>>  ><Big Snip> >>>
 >>>  You better get a big snip, for you ain't got one right yet; no it
wasn't >>>  Oakland. >>> >> >>No, it wasn't Oakland, 'cause it was
Cadillac instead. >> >>Paul >> >> >>Wait, Didn't Leland start Cadillac? >
>Ken Pilidis > > > No Leland took the 1st Ford Motor Co. away from Ford,
and renamed it Cadillac as Henry Ford kept his name. Anon.

- ------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 06:40:01 -0400
Subject: Re: G.M. Trivia

At 07:50 AM 11/12/96 -0400, you wrote:
>> >> >> 4. What G.M. car division was started by Henry Ford?  (Yes the
Henry >> >Ford.) >> >>  > >> >>  >Was it Oakland? >> >>  > >> >>  ><Big
Snip> >> >> >> >>  You better get a big snip, for you ain't got one
right yet; no it wasn't >> >>  Oakland. >> >> >> > >> >No, it wasn't
Oakland, 'cause it was Cadillac instead. >> > >> >Paul >> > >> > >>
>Wait, Didn't Leland start Cadillac? >> >> Ken Pilidis > >Ken, > >I
believe that Henry Ford started his second company w/backers who >wanted
a luxury car while Henry wanted a people's car.  Henry decided to >get
out & was able to take his name w/him.  Henry Leland was hired as >chief
engineer of the old company with the new name of Cadillac. > >Bill Culp
>Decatur, Alabama > > Right again Anon.

- ------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 06:45:14 -0400
Subject: Re: G.M. Trivia

At 05:15 AM 11/12/96 -0400, you wrote:
>> > >Wait, Didn't Leland start Cadillac?
>> >
>> > Ken Pilidis
>>
>> Ken,
>>
>> I believe that Henry Ford started his second company w/backers who
>> wanted a luxury car while Henry wanted a people's car.  Henry decided
to >> get out & was able to take his name w/him.  Henry Leland was hired
as >> chief engineer of the old company with the new name of Cadillac.
>> >> Bill Culp > >Welcome back!  I've read that Ford, who was in
charge of construction, >claimed his backers (the Murphy group) were in
too much of a hurry to make >a profit, and in fine finger-pointing
fashion, the Murphy group alleged >that all Ford wanted to do was build
cars to race.  Ford resigned, which >lead to a series of events which
resulted in a decision to liquidate. >Leland was called in to appraise
the plant and equipment.  Recall that >Leland & Faulconer had supplied
engines to Olds; this strengthened >Leland's interest in the gasoline
motor.  In the meantime, Leland had >developed an improved version, and
the abandoned factory presented an >opportunity to make use of his
engine.  His presentation to the Murphy >group was well received.  The
company was reorganized and named after the >great French explorer who
had founded Detroit 200 years before.  The >original arrangement was for
Leland to produce engines, transmissions, and >steering gears, while
Cadillac would supply the rest.  Leland was given a >seat on the board
around 1906. > >Hmmmm...  so who founded Cadillac?  The chief engineer
of the Detroit >Automobile Company and Henry Ford Company, which both
failed in short >order?  The Murphy group, having supplied most of the
capital?  Leland for >bringing his new engine and engineering
excellence?  If one considers the >heart of a car to be the engine, then
Leland would be the obvious choice. >The first Cadillac engine was
derived from the Olds unit; this amounted to >what was probably the
first ever thorough "hot-rodding" - larger intake and >exhaust valves &
ports and a longer duration camshaft.  Thus, a long >inter-related chain
of events which will keep historians busy forever <g>. > >Kevin Wong > >
Kevin,

It's always follow the money isn't it!  It is a long and circuitious
route from Ford to Cadillac, with lots of players.  And I expect that
Leland is the one Ford remembered best, especially when Lincoln was
available.

Cliff Feiler

- ------------------------------

From: kissrulz@gnn.com (Craig Dobbins)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 01:45:20 -0400
Subject: 1968 442 owners WITH SIDE STRIPES--Attention please!!

Dan and Everybody else,
  CRAP!!!  I didn't know this either!  Have you any idea of
approxamatly how much the "442" numbers have to be moved over (this
WILL be done when the paint is stripped off - eventhough this does
mean some braising rod work, which I didn't even want to get into,
but I guess ya gotta do what ya gotta do!)  I'm sure the heigth of
the numbers is probably the same.  Also, if ANYONE else on the list
knows of this, or has a '68 442 with side stripes, I would
appreciate a response with an exact measurement (if possible) from
the outside edge of the front wheel well trim (probably best at the
bottom of the trim/wheel well) to the edge of the outside (small)
stripe closest to the chrome trim.  That way I (and everybody else
with '68 442's) will know how far over the "442" numbers need to be
moved towards the rear of the fenders.

Thank You Very Much,
Craig Dobbins
Lockport, N.Y.
1968 442 Convertable.


>Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 20:48:00 +0000
>From: Dan Williams <dr_olds@pitnet.net>
>To: Craig Dobbins <kissrulz@gnn.com>
>Subject: Re: 68 Olds Service Manual
>
>Craig Dobbins wrote:
>>
>> Dan,
>>   I would really like a blueprint of the sidestripes!!!! I am
>> painting my '68 cinvertable this summer and am adding the
stripes
>> (as any decent person would do!!)  Is there any way you can mail
me
>> the blueprints or send me the name of someone who can send me a
>> copy of the blueprints?  I'd REALLY appreciate it!!!
>>
>Well, there is one problem, the emblems have to be moved for the
stripe.
> I
>don't have the info on that.  I was supposed to get the entire
manual that
>includes that info, but a no show on it.  The stripes will only
work if
> your car
>originally had them.  If you do not move your emblems, the strip
will run
> into
>your wheel well moldings.  Almost every 68 I see has that problem
because
> not
>many people know that the emblems are supposed to be moved.
>
>-Dan

- ------------------------------

From: kissrulz@gnn.com (Craig Dobbins)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 02:01:12 -0400
Subject: Winter storage and Jack Stand Placement

Hi everyone,
  Call me a moron if you like, but this is the first year I have
owned my '68 442 convertable (and the first year I've actually had
a car to store for the winter!).  I basically know what to do to
store the car, but I do have a few questions.  Is it better to
start the car once a month and run it for a 1/2 and hour or so (and
in neutral - to get the transmission spinning), or is it better to
just leave it until spring?  I've heard it both ways.  I also have
purchased jack stands to put it up.  Where exactly should these be
placed underneath the car??  I was going to put them directly
behind the front wheel wells and in front of the rear wells (right
behind the edge of the fenders and Q-panels, but I was told this
was incorrect).  So, exactly where should the frame be supported??
Any help would be great.

Thanks,
Craig Dobbins
Lockport, N.Y.
1968 442 convertable.

- ------------------------------

From: AMSOILL@aol.com
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 07:20:06 -0400
Subject: Re: oldsmobile-digest V1 #335

In a message dated 96-10-18 18:15:07 EDT, you write:

> Well, I'm not one of the ~dedicated~ Toro guys, but I'll give you my
>$0.00386 worth, anyway (two cents before taxes).


  If Clinton gets re-elected, that tax will go up of course! :-(



                                           Steve

- ------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 08:29:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Waking the beast from a long slumber....(long)

Hi Andy!

I bet you get umpteen responses to this, but here's my spin, FWIW.

I put my car away for 5 - 6 mos. every year -- New England does have its
drawbacks, few though they may be :) A limited top-down season is one of
'em.

>   The Car:
>   She's a mostly original 1971 Delta 88 convertible with a 2 barrel
455 >   hooked to a T400.  I added dual exhaust, Turbo mufflers (a bit
loud in my

Sounds like a nice car, Andy... and prolly one of the best mileage 455's
on the list w/that 2 barrel :) > >   Can anyone share recommendations
for reviving a car after a prolonged >   storage?  Last time it sat for
a prolonged period (3 months while I was >   in Sweden) it just about
killed the AAA truck when he jumped it.  He >   claimed it was because
the engine was a big block, I think it was just >   cold.  Funny, my
Interstate battery never had any problems in past >   winters...

I'd start off with a squirt or two -- OK, maybe a coupla capfuls -- of
that wonderful elixir, Marvel Mystery Oil, in each of the cylinders.
Let stand overnight.  That'll help loosen up anything that might have
caused adhesion of the rings to the cylinders over time.

After it sits overnight soaking, try cranking the engine *With The
Sparkplugs Out*.  Wouldn't want to do any damage to your motor by trying
to compress a liquid :P  You might like to put rags near the sparkplug
holes though, to catch any oil sprayed out during cranking... gotta keep
that engine compartment clean!

After cranking over a few times to loosen up the rings and blow out any
oil, put the plugs back in and give it a try.  Once it catches, you'll
prolly see a bit of smoke from the Marvel Oil.  This may last as much as
15 - 20 mins. Pay it no heed, though perhaps you might like to take it
for a short spin, both to speed up the process *and* to keep your
neighbors happy by taking the (temporary) smoker out of the gen'l area
:)

>
>   Thanks for your advice in advance!


Your welcome... hope I've helped!



Tim Churchill
- - -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'89 Cadillac Fleetwood, nickname yet to be determined
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

- ------------------------------

From: Kurt Heinrich <old442@erols.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 08:42:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Johnny Lightning

PHartlieb@aol.com wrote:
>
> Was at a local department store today looking for the Ertl models
(Toys R Us > doesn't have 'em yet) and ran across some more Johnny
Lightning Pace Cars. >  I've already bought sets 1, 2 and 3, but these
are marked Collector's > Editions and are in the original pace car
colors.  Was only able to get the > '70 and '74 Cutlasses, both in
white, unfortunately there was no '77 Delta, > but there must be some
around, as these were not in the store a couple weeks > ago when I was
looking for the latest set (#3).

Are you talking about the pace car sets that include the winning Indy
car?
I've seen 'em (bought some) and am annoyed that the colors are WRONG
(knew it when I bought 'em, but I HAD to).  The pictures on the package
show the right colors, but the 70 is done in green and the 73 in done in
blue.  I've looked at a number of stores and they were all the same.
Let me know if you've actually found them in the correct colors (if you
did I'll keep looking).

> Also saw a Johnny Lightning Muscle Car set at WalMart with the '69
Hurst/Olds > in the correct white with the gold stripes.  They want
$24.95 for the set. >  Are the white Hursts rare?  Can't see paying $25
for a set of 12 when I only > want one, unless the white ones are worth
a lot themselves.

A while back I found a Johny Lightning "69 442".  Well its actually a 69
H/O painted yellow.  And I just saw the same collectors set with the
corect painting of the H/O...got a few of my friends to split the set..I
got the H/O and they got the "cars" they liked.

- ------------------------------

From: Kurt Heinrich <old442@erols.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 08:54:29 -0400
Subject: Re: What's real? (was: 70 442 W-30 VIN)

JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com wrote:
>
> Hey Joe,
>           ...<snip>...
> Would it be so bad that if a person did upgrade their vehicle to a
have > all of the above?  Stating that it is a fake is a very strong >
statement.  I feel that if a person would go to such an extreme, then >
if they want to believe its a W-30 then so be it.  Wouldn't this >
upgraded car be effectively the same as a W-30?  I am knew to the world >
of automotive accuracy.  Please excuse any ignorance on my part. > >
Chris Sparks > 68 442 >           Funny you should mention this.  I had
actually written a few >           lines to this extent on my original
post then thought better >           of it and deleted them before
mailing.  I have mixed >           feelings about this.  If you did all
of the above, you would >           have effectively built a "real"
W-30, with all of the >           equipment and performance of a factory
unit.  If you did >           this for your own use, great.  If you did
this and tried to >           sell it as an original W-30, is it a fake
or not?  I'd have >           to say yes, it is a fake, because there is
some perceived >           value (at least, to some buyers) to having an
"original", as >           opposed to  a "reproduction".  The line gets
really fuzzy >           when the car gets restored.

My thoughts are that if the car left the factory as a Cutlass and you
made it into a 442 (with all the right parts), it's still a Cutlass (not
original, but a Cutlass none the less).  If you took a 442 and W30'd it
the line is fuzzier because the W30 was a 442...  But, it is more than
an intake manifold, hood, etc.  They had different cams, lifters, etc
and were blueprinted.
In my mind if the if it didn't LEAVE THE FACTORY AS A W30, THAN IT'S NOT
A W30.
I've thought of W30ing a car (strictly for my pleasure, not to try and
sell as a W30), but would not do this to a numbers matching 442.  Not
that I'm a stickler for originality, but if you have a good original why
destroy it?

Kurt 71 442

- ------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 09:05:01 -0400
Subject: This Day In Olds History

Just thought I'd mention that according to my Automobilia Trivia
calendar, on this day (Nov. 12) in 1908, Oldsmobile became part of
General Motors...


Greg Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia,
Canada

- ------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 09:06:56 -0400
Subject: Re: oldsmobile-digest V1 #335

At 07:20 AM 11/12/96 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 96-10-18 18:15:07 EDT, you write:
>
>> Well, I'm not one of the ~dedicated~ Toro guys, but I'll give you my
>>$0.00386 worth, anyway (two cents before taxes).
>
>
>  If Clinton gets re-elected, that tax will go up of course! :-(
>
>
>
>                                           Steve
>
>
>
Of course
Anon.

- ------------------------------

From: Rod Rickenbach <rod@hopi.dtcc.edu>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 09:07:35 -0400
Subject: Re: B/O/P 455's

On Tue, 12 Nov 1996, Field Office wrote:

> decision...it just depends on what you want to do...I mean Buick
motors > are very hard to get Hi-Po parts for...Olds and Pontaic it's
rather easy to > get what you want

There's more companies selling High Performance parts for Buick than
Olds. You just have to know where to look...  As far as bang for $
invested, the Buick 455 is pretty tough to beat.  The heads flow
extremely well in stock form.

- - -Rod
- -
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
    Rod Rickenbach                                       Delaware Tech
     rod@dtcc.edu                                 Computer Services
Department http://www.dtcc.edu/~rod
Stanton/Wilmington Campus

- ------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 12:38:23 -0400
Subject: Re: This Day In Olds History

Greg Beaulieu wrote:
>
> Just thought I'd mention that according to my Automobilia Trivia
> calendar, on this day (Nov. 12) in 1908, Oldsmobile became part of
> General Motors...

A moment of silence, please...

The 66 Toro and Mike


- - --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

- ------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:02:51 -0400
Subject: Spotted: Another '67 Cutlass Convt.

So I driving home from work yesterday, on my way to picking up the kids
from daycare, when I go by this service station -- used to be a Shell
station in my youth, now they just do service -- and what do I see in
the parking lot, but a '67 Cutlass ragtop!  Not a Supreme or 442, as
it's rear end is pointed towards the street, and it's got the backup
lights in the lower taillight bezels.

I didn't have a chance to stop and look.  It looked okay, a light
metallic blue -- dunno if that's a factory color -- and a nice looking
dark blue top.  The paint looked nice from a distance, but I'd have to
take a closer look to see the condition.  Plus, I was wearing my glasses
at the time (slight mishap involving an 'abrased cornea' last Thursday
leaves me w/o my contacts this week, and my glasses don't correct as
well).

However, the car also had these horrible cheap-o plastic crome hubcaps,
designed to look like Mags, no doubt on sale at Auto Palace (equivalent
to Pep Boys or Western Auto I think) for $19.99/set.  This was the one
drawback to the car that makes me suspect that a closer examination will
reveal a car that's not all it's cracked up to be.

But hey, it's only the 2nd '67 Cutlass ragtop I've seen in 5 years,
besides mine.  I'll have to stop in and ask about it... maybe find a new
recruit for the list. :)

Y'know, of the 3 '67 convertibles I've seen (mine, this one, and another
a couple of years ago), mine is the only Supreme.  I should look up the
production numbers for Supreme .vs. 'regular' Cutlass convertibles...



Tim ( Only 130 Days Until Top Down Season :P ) Churchill
- - -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'89 Cadillac Fleetwood, nickname yet to be determined
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

- ------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:04:54 -0400
Subject: RE: Setting the Pace

- - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBD078.92DE0F60
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Well, I called the museum on October 21st to order one because I am not
= a club member. I have not yet recieved it and I paid for it.  They may
= be back ordered.

- - ----------
From:  Greg Kalkhoff[SMTP:gkalkhof@execpc.com]
Sent:  Monday, November 11, 1996 7:53 PM
To:  oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject:  Re: Setting the Pace

Setting The Pacer's

I've been following this thread for a few days now and finally have to =
pipe up.

I've only been a member of the OCA for less than a year. I believe my =
1st anniversary=20
would be this December. My last name starts with K, (DUH) and I received
= my book over=20 two (closer to 3) weeks ago.

Not sure where they were mailed from, even if that makes a difference.

Just my 2 copper slugs worth. Not that it means a danged thing!  (;

Sparky=20


- - --=20
Greg Kalkhoff                             See the Sparkmobile
AKA  "Sparky"                       http://www.442.com/kalkhoff.html
Milwaukee, WI





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- ------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 16:13:06 -0400
Subject: Re: '68 A-pillar trim

Craig Dobbins wrote:
>
> Dave,
>   If you mean the little 6-inch (or so) pieces down near the
> headlight area;  they came on both Cutlass and 442.  The only piece
> that is unique to the convertable is the long stainless trim piece
> that continued from the rear quarter glass, down to the end of the
> rear Q-panel.
>
> Craig Dobbins
> '68 442 Convertable.
>
>
> >Subject:       '68 A-pillar trim
> >
> >Does anyone know if the A-pillar stainless trim (on the outside of
> the
> >A-pillar) on a '68 Cutlass convertible is unique to the
> convertible?  Or is
> >it the same as the '68 hardtops?
> >
> >Thanks!
> >--
> >Dave Paulison

> >
> >
Dave,

I think that the A-pillar part you are referring to is between the
windshield & the door glass(s).  The convertible is unique but the same
in Chevy, Buick, & Pointiac. I believe that it is the same from 1968
thru 1972 even though some have vent windows & some don't.  The
stainless covers all of the A-pillar, slips under the upper & lower
windshield trim & screws onto the inside of the windshield pillar
(hidden by the door/window gasket).

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

- ------------------------------

From: Ken Pilidis <kpilidis@compusmart.ab.ca>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:39:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Winter storage and Jack Stand Placement

At 02:01 AM 11/12/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi everyone,
>  Call me a moron if you like, but this is the first year I have
>owned my '68 442 convertable (and the first year I've actually had
>a car to store for the winter!).  I basically know what to do to
>store the car, but I do have a few questions.  Is it better to
>start the car once a month and run it for a 1/2 and hour or so (and
>in neutral - to get the transmission spinning), or is it better to
>just leave it until spring?  I've heard it both ways.  I also have
>purchased jack stands to put it up.  Where exactly should these be
>placed underneath the car??  I was going to put them directly
>behind the front wheel wells and in front of the rear wells (right
>behind the edge of the fenders and Q-panels, but I was told this
>was incorrect).  So, exactly where should the frame be supported??
>Any help would be great.
>
>Thanks,
>Craig Dobbins
>Lockport, N.Y.
>1968 442 convertable.
>
>
>
>
>
>Craig,

Why not put junkyard wheels and tires on the car instead of lifting it?
If you store the car in a garage and for some reason you had to move the
car to get at something or incase of fire, you could just push the car
out.  If the car is on stands, you get to watch it burn.  The suspension
was designed to hold the cars weight.  This also saves the problem of
the suspension hanging (which it shoudn't).

Ken Pilidis
Edmonton, Alberta

- ------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #362
********************************


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********************************
 
