To:	Jeffrey A Easton/ADD_LAKE_HUB/ADD_HUB/ADD/US
cc:	 
From:	gbbea000 @ mail.cycor.ca@INTERNET1 @ ABTLAB
Date:	10/24/96 06:10:01 PM
Subject:	oldsmobile-digest V1 #339


oldsmobile-digest         Tuesday, 22 October 1996      Volume 01 :
Number 339


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jzeilman@stlouis.cp.lucent.com
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 17:25:00 -0300
Subject: Re: '69 Engine Compartment (read mine!)

On Sunday, October 20, 1996 5:42PM Craig Dobbins wrote:

>Hi,
> I have a '68 442 Convertible.  66,000 miles, purchased from the
>original owner.  All, manuals, protect-o-plate, and everything
>(can't exactly reach the build sheet though, it's mounted onto a
>fender support, and brittle as hell.  Tried to get it with a
>hanger, but it just started to tear, so it's still there).  Any
>chance I can get a photocopy of this engine compartment??
>Currently, I'm having problems with my thermostatic switch
>(top/front/right side of intake manifold).  Do you have one of
>these?  I know (because of my '68 chassis manual) that it switches
>the engine timing/idle when the car is sitting at idle to avoid
>overheating, but the manual isn't too specific about it.  Any
>clues??
________________
Craig,

Let me know if you really need engine compartment photos.  I assume you
need the '68 4-4-2 engine compartment pic.  I had also sent him '69
W31, '69 H/O, '69 Cutlass, and '69 4-4-2 engine pics.  As far as the
thermostatic switch, I'll have to take a look tonight, and I'll let you
know what I find out.

Jeff Zeilmann
SMTP:jzeilman@stlouis.cp.lucent.com
'68 Cutlass Supreme, '69 Cutlass S Convertible

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:39:40 -0300
Subject: 'nother day in the life.

Well, we got our second snowfall, and just like every year, I had to
jump start the Rockit this morning.  I ~hate~ winter.  I go through
roughly four KMart Exide 1000CCA batteries every year, and it doesn't
even matter what car they're in.  They just don't last.  Anyway, I went
to class, then to work (Only one job today, my day off!)  and then back
to class.  I got out of class today, and found my car with a depressed
look to it.  I walked around because something just didn't seem right
(ya know, parental intuition!) and there sat my back tire with a big-old
frown on the bottom! It obviously wasn't too happy about the rim sitting
on the sidewall, and decided it'd had enough!  So, I get the air tank
out (I was lucky enough to be parked near the shop) and start at it.  It
worked well, ya know, cuz it was only flat on the bottom!  ;)  Got it
aired up, and went to the tire shop.  Once there, I didn't have to worry
about it going flat again, so I could relax a bit.  I checked both back
tires, and figured they'd led a good life, (and the term euthanasia came
to mind about then) so I told the guy to get me two new tires on there.
Then I started checking the fronts out. They  were still round, ya know,
so they weren't too bad.  But, upon stepping back a bit, I realized that
they were less than ten feet ahead of those back ones :), so they
suddenly started to lose their value to me.  I now have 4 new Cooper
Cobra G/T 245-60R14's on the Rockit.  It's the first time I've had
matching brand tires on all corners in about two years, and the first
time it's held four matching SIZE tires in probably six!  It still looks
good, anyway, and the wide ~front~ tires make an aggressive statement.
(Similar to the aggressive statement they made when they ran down *(up?)
the Discover card)
     The moral of this story (I guess) is I hate winter!  Well, OK, I
don't mind it so much, (except the cold, I do hate that) but my cars
really don't like winter, so I, by nature, have to side with them, so
there!  :)
     If I get a camera anytime soon, I'll put pics of the "new" look on
my page...   Someday...


      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: Christian Fair <cfair@fairisaac.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:28:59 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds Fuel Injection

(snip)
>I've heard of open-loop and closed-loop systems.  The difference has
>something to do with the O2 sensor I think.  Anybody know the
difference >between these two types??


Dan,
My understanding of the difference between open and closed loop systems
is precisely the 02 sensor. In closed loop systems, it/they mounts on
the exhaust manifold(s) and feeds information about the 02 content of
the exh. gas mixture to the CPU. I think the CPU then adjusts the rate
of injection per unit of air to achieve the optimal air/fuel ratio.

In open loop systems, I think the O2 sensor is completely absent,
meaning that the CPU does not adjust for conditions which affect the O2
content of the exhaust gas mixture.

My guess about the advantage of closed loop systems is that they can
self adjust for altitude, temperature and other conditions which would
affect the amount of gas required for the optimal air/fuel mixture. Also
they can adjust to lean out the motor to produce as little smog as
possible. That's why the CARB and other regulators like closed loop
systems, it's one more way they can get into our motors and get the
result _they_ want. Even if it's less than max power.

Again, with no experience, my guess is that a closed loop system would
allow a truly modern balance between the competing goals of max power
and min. smog.

That's why I'm thinking about this major investment in the back of my
mind, on airplanes, daydreaming....

cf

------------------------------

From: Scott R Clark <mickeyd@selway.umt.edu>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:56:55 -0300
Subject: Whats in a name?  Was...Re: Re[2]: Oldsmobile Book

> There is a mention of  how the moniker's F-85 and Cutlass
> came about.  Both have roots in Aviation, F-85 sounding like a fighter
 > jet name and Cutlass actually being a the name of a plane.... >
 >           And yes, the F-88 is probably a cross between the F-86 >
Saberjet of Korean War fame (remember, this was 1954) and >
the Olds 88.  The Cutlass was a carrier-based fighter jet of >
about the same vintage. > 	I've also thought of the air force
sounding names they used, but also that a Cutlass is a type of sword.
The name always conjured up a swashbuckling kind of theme for me.  Same
for the Buick LeSabre, but to a far less degree, since the LeSabre has
traditionally been something...well, short of agressive :).


				Scott
			1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98

------------------------------

From: Andrew Chan <yu135008@yorku.ca>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 20:07:03 -0300
Subject: Re: Aurora V8 vs. Northstar (was: Heidi Help!)

> Actually the Northstar ~was~ an Olds engine.  They are virtually
identical. > The Aurora is a 3.4L (I think, right?) and the Northstar is
4.0L. if I

Aurora V8 = 4.0L ,   Northstar V8 = 4.6L

> remember correctly.  Caddilac went to Olds to design their new
flagship > motor.  I've been inside both of them, and I've got pictures
of the original > Northstar prototype on my web page.  It is involved in
an all out blow up > contest.  It was nothing short of amazing, that
thing ran forever!

All the literature I've come across indicates that the Aurora engine was
derived from the Northstar.  Cadillac introduced the Northstar engine in
1993; it was standard on the Allante, ETC, and STS models.  BTW, in that
engine blow up contest, was the stock computer used to run the engine?
Just curious.

Kevin Wong

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 19:11:22 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds Fuel Injection

>In open loop systems, I think the O2 sensor is completely absent,
>meaning that the CPU does not adjust for conditions which affect
>the O2 content of the exhaust gas mixture.

Um, I don't think so; I think open loop mode is used only until the
sensor is hot enough to report an accurate signal, at which point the
system goes to closed loop mode. The difference between open and closed
loop mode is signalled in diagnostic mode by slow versus fast blinking
of the Check Engine light after the engine is started.

There are times when the sensor feedback is ignored (cold start and
WOT, among others, I think), which would fit the definition of open
loop. There's also a warning or three in the manuals saying that the
system can fall out of closed loop during idle if the sensor cools too
much; consequently it's necessary to run at fast idle for a minute or
two before taking readings if a test requires closed-loop operation.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Roger M. Borlase" <BORLASE@gordonc.edu>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 20:27:41 -0300
Subject: RE: Salesmen's prices,equip,colors,trims specs

>They will be of only high quality and not like a xerox copy.  please
email me >or the list with Yays or Nays or just plain input or even just
plain ole >questions

Yay.  But this not a commitment vote.

Roger Borlase
'72 Cutlass Cruiser

------------------------------

From: Gerald Gibson <gibson@webgate.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 20:34:17 -0300
Subject: Re: Bench Racing

Greg Pruett wrote:
>
>               Everyone talking about turbos, superchargers, and EFI
got me > thinking. <snip>.  All I need now is about 10 grand and a > few
years worth of free weekends. > >               Just daydreaming on the
list. >               Greg Pruett >               `72 Vista-Cruiser


     Greg,

     That's sounds like one h*ll of a project.  Like the sounds of it.
Is it actually possible?  Just curious.

                  Gerald Gibson @ webgate.net

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:36:29 -0300
Subject: Re: Whats in a name?  Was...Re: Re[2]: Oldsmobile Book

     Yes, I posted this this morning, but I haven't seen it come back
yet.
     Anyways, a Cutlass is a type of sword.  A short, stout, curved
sword.
     You might see pirates use them in movies, when they're not using a
     rapier or scimitar.  I have a friend who's a bladesmith and I'm
     thinking of having him make me one. . .

     Tom L.

______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________ Subject: Whats in a name?  Was...Re:
Re[2]: Oldsmobile Book Author:  oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca at INTERNET
Date:    10/21/96 4:17 PM

 I've also thought of the air force sounding names they used, but
also that a Cutlass is a type of sword.  The name always conjured up
a swashbuckling kind of theme for me.  Same for the Buick LeSabre, but
to a far less degree, since the LeSabre has traditionally been
something...well, short of agressive :).


    Scott
   1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98



------------------------------

From: Mike Hall <mikehal1@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 17:29:33 -0300
Subject: Re: the Achieva

Travis McWaters writes:

>I drove one of thoses as a rental once.  That's exactly what
>we called it.  I think mopeds were passing me...

I rented a 1996 Achieva from National rental when I was in Waterbury,
Conneticut last week. I found the car vastly improved from the 1995
model that I rented there last year. The ride was tight, pickup was
good considering the mill and the interior was quiet and good looking.
I think the Achieva would be a good car for normal back and forth
driving to work...

Now, if we could only convince Oldsmobile to stick a Rocket 350 in
it....!


Michael R. Hall                                Ortonville, Michigan
Home E-Mail: mikehal1@ix.netcom.com
Teleflex E-Mail: TFX!TFXTROYMI!TFXTROYPO!mikeh@tfx.attmail.com
The Oldsmobile Stable:
     1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass S, 380 horses of pure Mondello fun...
     1991 Oldsmobile Eighty-Eight Royale Broughm, the classy one...

------------------------------

From: Mike Hall <mikehal1@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 17:29:28 -0300
Subject: Re: Oldsmobile Book Detroit

Mark Prince writes:
>Heres something ironic.  I live in Detroit, only 1 1/2 hours from
Lansing and >I still haven't recieved the Olds book.  The publisher is
probably in some >other state.  I have been an OCA member for about 3
years now, so I know >I will get one.  I will just have to wait.

Mark,

Don't feel too bad, I haven't received my copy of the book either...

Anxiously waiting,
Mike


Michael R. Hall                                Ortonville, Michigan
Home E-Mail: mikehal1@ix.netcom.com
Teleflex E-Mail: TFX!TFXTROYMI!TFXTROYPO!mikeh@tfx.attmail.com
The Oldsmobile Stable:
     1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass S, 380 horses of pure Mondello fun...
     1991 Oldsmobile Eighty-Eight Royale Broughm, the classy one...

------------------------------

From: Mike Hall <mikehal1@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 17:29:40 -0300
Subject: Re: Found 70 Cutlass

Mark Prince writes:
>Looked inside saw a 4 spoke steer
>wheel, plain heat, white buckets with console and behold a dualgate.

Mark,

Are you planning to restore  this car or part her out. I would buy those
 white buckets immediately if it is the latter. You didn't really say
in your message and the intent, I think, is that you are going to
restore this one, please let me know,

Regards,
Mike


Michael R. Hall                                Ortonville, Michigan
Home E-Mail: mikehal1@ix.netcom.com
Teleflex E-Mail: TFX!TFXTROYMI!TFXTROYPO!mikeh@tfx.attmail.com
The Oldsmobile Stable:
     1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass S, 380 horses of pure Mondello fun...
     1991 Oldsmobile Eighty-Eight Royale Broughm, the classy one...

------------------------------

From: grpruett@vt.edu (Greg Pruett)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:36:49 -0300
Subject: Re: Bench Racing

>Greg Pruett wrote:
>>
>>               Everyone talking about turbos, superchargers, and EFI
got me >> thinking. <snip>.  All I need now is about 10 grand and a >>
few years worth of free weekends. >> >>               Just daydreaming
on the list. >>               Greg Pruett >>               `72
Vista-Cruiser > > >     Greg, > >     That's sounds like one h*ll of a
project.  Like the sounds of it. >Is it actually possible?  Just
curious. > >                  Gerald Gibson @ webgate.net

              It was just more or less pipe dreaming but I don't know
why it couldn't be accomplished. I don't know much about physically
interfacing the turbos but  I'm sure *someone* could do it.  I don't
know If a shadetree mechanic (such as myself) could do it though. Having
a shop do the work would definitly cost more than $10 thouand.    I do
know 8:1 compression is safe for a turbo and mildly camming it wouldn't
be a problem.  The 6-speed trans may cause problems because I don't know
if you can interface it with an Olds bellhousing, but I'm sure a car
builder and enough money could solve the problem.  The 6-speeds fit into
Ch*velles with some transmission tunnel hammering and a few other mods
achieveable by a do-it-yourselfer, so it would probably physically go
into a Cutlass.
              I was guesstimating about $1500 each for turbo chargers,
and the trans runs something like $2500.  The rearend  probably would
run $500 to $600, and then I figured another grand to cover little
things I didn't think of.  Three grand to get a decent body/chassis to
put it in.  I only figured on parts though, no labor.

If I ever get out of school and actually have enough money to spend on
such a car, I sure want to give it a shot.

Greg Pruett

`72 Vista-Cruiser, naturally aspirated.

------------------------------

From: Aaron Neumann <neumann.12@osu.edu>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:34:03 -0300
Subject: Visionary 442 sketches

>
>From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
>Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:50:56 -0300
>Subject: Heidi Help!  (was- Say It Isn't So!)

> Do we have any good
>artists on the list?  Maybe I'll have to try sketching something out
>someday.  I did one in high school molding an '84 into an F body style,
it >was pretty cool.  It's gotta have big fat tires all over the place,
too:) >We'll show those bowties what speed, cornering, ~and~ comfort is
all about! >(We always have, right?)

Buehner's suggestion is an idea that has probably crossed many minds at
one time or another.  Dreams of new 442's, hot of the drawing board with
the latest technology, often keep me awake at night...well, at least
until I fall asleep :)

I have put some of these thoughts to paper.  I've got some sketches of
my vision for future 442s that I'd be happy to show everyone.  The
sketches are what I think to be a tasteful blend of about 60% '70 442
and 40% Aurora.

Unfortunatly I am scanner-less.  If someone who would like to scan in
these images and send them to Bryce or this list would give me their
snail-mail address, along with max drawing size, I'll send the sketches
to him or her after I clean them up a bit.


 _____
|  |  |* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
|  |  | Aaron Neumann St. Marys, OH  *
|  |  | neumann.12@osu.edu           *
| /|\ | 72 Delta 88 Royale Conv.     *
|/_|_\|* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *	

------------------------------

From: WMACHINES@aol.com
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 21:59:07 -0300
Subject: Re: Found 70 Cutlass

In a message dated 96-10-21 20:39:03 EDT, you write:

<< Mark,

 Are you planning to restore  this car or part her out. I would buy
those
 white buckets immediately if it is the latter. You didn't really say in

 your message and the intent, I think, is that you are going to restore
 this one, please let me know,

 Regards,
 Mike
  >>

Sorry Mike, I sold the car to my brother because he really wanted the
car. He paid me exactly what I paid for it.  But he does plan the
restore the car.


Regards,
Mark

------------------------------

From: "Roger M. Borlase" <BORLASE@gordonc.edu>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 22:03:54 -0300
Subject: RE: race and contact list

>Also, to whoever is in charge of the Olds FAQ.  As the owner of an '80
>Rover 3500 with the [former Olds] 215 V8, I would be happy to provide
some >more info on its history if I can.

That would be the Buick 215.  It is an alluminum engine.

Roger Borlase

------------------------------

From: <postmaster@ihgw2.lucent.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 22:38:00 -0300
Subject: Gateway to Microsoft Mail failed

Your mail to stlouis!jzeilman is undeliverable.
- ---------- diagnosis ----------
UtoM: Mail error destined for CLSMAIL/NJ
- ---------- unsent mail ----------
>From uucp Mon Oct 21 18:50 EDT 1996 remote from cpmail
>From uucp Mon Oct 21 18:50 EDT 1996 remote from cpmail
>From oldsmobile Mon Oct 21 19:39:24 0300 1996 remote from
chebucto.ns.ca Received: from cpmail by cpmail.cp.lucent.com; Mon, 21
Oct 1996 18:50 EDT Received: from chebucto.ns.ca by
cpmail.cp.lucent.com; Mon, 21 Oct 1996 18:50 EDT Received: by
ihig1.firewall.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-L sol2) 	id RAA02664; Mon, 21 Oct
1996 17:51:26 -0500 Received: by ihgw2.lucent.com; Mon Oct 21 17:46 CDT
1996 Received: by chebucto.ns.ca id <91350(1)>; Mon, 21 Oct 1996
19:39:26 -0300 To: oldsmobile-digest@chebucto.ns.ca From:
oldsmobile-digest-owner@chebucto.ns.ca Original-To:
	oldsmobile-digest@chebucto.ns.ca Subject:   oldsmobile-digest V1 #338
Reply-To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca Errors-To:
oldsmobile-digest-owner@chebucto.ns.ca Precedence: bulk Message-Id:
<96Oct21.193926adt.91350(1)@chebucto.ns.ca> Date: 	Mon, 21 Oct 1996
19:39:24 -0300 X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 99855


oldsmobile-digest         Monday, 21 October 1996      Volume 01 :
Number 338


- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: pete <redeye@bc.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 20:02:34 -0300
Subject: chrome pieces 70 oldsy

The body guy I took my baby to sure screwed up..had the body redone, ie
1/4 panels etc..well the jerk broke off the chrome off the front fenders
instead of undoing the nuts from inside the fenders..man am I pissed!
Needless to say I need the "CUTLASS" AND the "S" chrome pieces. Any one
have any of these parts or knows where I can purchase them??? The car is
an OLDS 1970 2dr coupe cutlass "S". Has the "CUTLASS" written type
letters on bothe fenders and also an "S" just below those.. Any help
would be appreciated...HHHELLLPPP!

Thanks, Pete




               ~\\ ! //~
                +(o o)+
 *--pete--.o00o.--( )--.o00o.--pete--*

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 22:54:39 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds Target Market

In a message dated 96-10-21 11:25:10 EDT, you write:

> The current seems to be moving to position Oldsmobile to go after the
>  imports. The discussion regarding the new logo and how it looks very
>  "importish" is a very good example of that movement.

But doesn't that seem to be what EVERYBODY is doing lately?  What are
folks supposed to do that don't want an "importish" type car?

Paul

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 22:54:55 -0300
Subject: Re: Oldsmobile Book

In a message dated 96-10-21 09:10:05 EDT, you write:

> I had heard that the "F" in F-85 originally referred to a smaller
>  wheelbase vehicle.  This is in contrast to the "L" series vehicles,
>  such as the 1941 L-98, where the L referred to the long wheelbase
>  Olds.
>

I don't think this is quite right.  F referred to the 6 cylinder models
and L referred to the 8 cylinder models.  This is a practice that
started back in '32, although the 8s always did have the longer
wheelbase of the two.  They added the G inbetween for '39 and '40 and
then stopped that practice all together.  I always assumed the L for the
8s stood for L-head, but never understood the F.

Paul

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 22:56:23 -0300
Subject: Re: Oldsmobile Invoices

In a message dated 96-10-20 23:52:38 EDT, you write:

>  I mentioned that I thought that anything after 1977 was available and
was >  informed otherwise.  Have I been misled or should I try againto
get an > invoice >  for my car.

I, too, have been told the '77 and newer story.  I again suggest that
you call and talk to Helen Earley only.  She may not be there all the
time, as she is retired, but I would only feel confident talking to her.
If she says no, then that's how it is.

Paul

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 22:56:04 -0300
Subject: Re: Help please

In a message dated 96-10-21 11:12:08 EDT, you write:

I can only help with these numbers, but I'm confused.

> Fischer body....
>      10C 004227 410196

10C means the body was built the third week (C) of October (10),
probably '67

>   ST 68 3477 BF 00054 B0?  \

ST 68 means its a '68.  3477 has me confused.  Is that supposed to be
34477?
 That would be an Oldsmobile (3) 442 Sports Coupe (4477).  But we had
some discussion here a few months ago that the body tags didn't reflect
the 442 trim, only the VIN would have the 34477 and the body tag would
have 3677 which is a Cutlass S Sports coupe.  Should your 3477 be a
3677?

BF is the plant code for Fremont and the following numbers are the body
sequence number, but 00054 seems low, even for October.  Maybe its
0005480, but that seems like too many digits and still seems like a low
number for October.

>   TR 957 B80 B90 FF ?      / These last parts I couldn't make out

TR 957 is the trim code for a Parchment interior (7).  95 denotes bench
or buckets but I don't know what the codes are.  B80 is the option code
for Chrome Roof Drip Moldings (std 442).  B90 is the option code for
Chrome Window Sill Moldings (std 442).  FF sound like the paint code,
upper and lower.  F was Teal Frost in '68

Hope this helps.

Paul

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 22:59:11 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds Target Market

In a message dated 96-10-21 13:12:43 EDT, you write:

> How much of Chevys revenue is attributed to Corvettes? Probably very
little,
> but then why do they keep producing them?

I can tell you why, as I work for a Chevrolet dealer.  The dealer profit
alone on these things is in excess of $6000.  Who knows what the profit
is for Chevrolet Division.  And they sell, we only have one '96 left in
stock and we have about 4 deposit-paid orders for the new '97 and we
don't even know what they're gonna look like yet.  The people who
plunked their money down don't even care what color their car is when it
gets here!  And we didn't have to knock a penny off of MSRP.  That's why
they keep producing them.

Paul

------------------------------

From: OLDSPWR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 23:22:13 -0300
Subject: 86 442 TH-2004R Trans...(long)

This answer is for Steve C, but I think it is benneficial to all on the
list.

Your 86 442 has a code 'KZF' TH-2004R trans.  This code can be found on
the passenger side of the trans near the driveshaft and is attached with
one rivet.  Sometimes these tags were installed backwards at the
factory, so it is possible that the code is facing the wrong way.  The
tag is a small piece of aluminum that will be either natural & yellow or
natural & blue and will have the 2 or 3 letter code on it along with the
serial number stamped on it.
 The serial number will also include the 2 or 3 letter code mentioned
above.
 This code is EXTREMELY important!  Since you said that the trans was
rebuilt, it is possible that the shop who did it just replaced it with
another trans they had laying around.  Most people do not know that
there is a difference between these trans.  I've had people tell me that
a "200-4R is a 200-4R", and that is wrong. The 442's, Monte SS's, and
Turbo Regals (TR's include Grand Nationals and T-Type's) have a unique
valve body.  This info came directly from an engineer from Hydromatic.
Although the casting numbers are the same, I am pretty sure that the
bore sizes of the valves within the valve body are different.

FYI
Codes for 200-4R's:
** KZF - 442's
** CZF - Monte SS's
** BRF - Turbo Regals
** OZ - Hurst's
OM - 350 Olds Diesels
OG - 307 Olds
BY - 252 V6 Cars
AA & AP - Cadillac's
The codes marked with the ** are the ones with the better valve bodies.
The valve body itself will have the first two letters painted on it.  Be
careful because the paint comes off easily.  The special valve bodies
usually have a purple strip on them also.

As for your problem, first check the easy things, like mentioned by
others on the list, like TV cable adjustment, and proper fluid level.
If you do not know how to adjust the TV cable, there is a good tech
article on the TR Web page [http://ni.umd.edu/gnttype/www/ buick.html]
Some tranny's are very sensitive to the location of the TV cable, so
make sure you check this.  After you have done this, verify you have the
correct trans.  If you don't, go back to the shop and obtain your
original.  If it is allready gone, you have problems, if not, this is
all you have to do:  obtain the valve body, plate, 1-2 servo, 3-4 servo,
2-3 intermediate servo, and the governor.  If you swap these parts into
your trans, you have the equivalent of what your car originally had.  If
you are die hard original, tell them to rebuild you original one so you
can have the correct code.

I have just went through a *hit load of problems with a 200-4R I had
rebuilt to put behind the 403 in my 79 Cutlass.  I also have and 86 442
and really like the trans, so I decided to have one built.  Well it
turns out that the core that was used was an 'OG' code from a 307
powered car.  Needless to say, my shifts were extremely sloppy and I had
a hell of a flair between 2-3.  Now I was beginning to have second
thoughts...  But I did some research and spent ALOT OF TIME on the TR
Web page, and it payed off.  First of all, I purchased a used unit from
a 86 Monte SS (after verifying its originality).  I then swapped the
above mentioned parts I told you to swap (governor, valve body, &
servo's) and this solved my problem.  I then installed a Mike Kurtz
shift kit and then the trans shifted second to none. Very impressive....
Most guys on the TR mail list swear by Mike Kurtz and he will spend some
time with you on the phone to help you out.  He works at PMAC and his
number is 1-713-666-2616.  Most guys on the TR list will suggest
avoiding Art Carr and Trans Go kits because sometimes they create
problems (BIG ONES).  Other common upgrades for these trans are hardened
input stators, 10 vane pumps, and pressure regulator valves.

Hope this info helps....
Tom Millard OLDSPWR@aol.com
79 Cutlass -> Street/Strip/Show
86 442 -> Summer Driver
79 Cutlass -> Winter Bomb

------------------------------

From: Gerald Gibson <gibson@webgate.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 23:07:13 -0300
Subject: Re: Visionary 442 sketches

>
> Unfortunatly I am scanner-less.  If someone who would like to scan in
these > images and send them to Bryce or this list would give me their
snail-mail > address, along with max drawing size, I'll send the
sketches to him or her > after I clean them up a bit. >
      I have a scanner but I am located in Ontario Canada.  If you want
I have no problem to scanning and sending these for you.  Anything to
help a fellow Olds enthusiast.  Good Luck.  E-mail me if interested.

                Gerald Gibson
                Gibson@webgate.net

------------------------------

From: jgoble@nishanet.com (Jeramy Goble)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 02:53:32 -0300
Subject: For Sale 66 Toro

Was anyone interested in the 66 Toro I looked at last week. Maybe I
didn't get the mail out as I thought.
Owner is Mr. Jim Robinson, Phone is 540 371-3560. If you want to call
him or I will be glad to pass along my observations. HIs asking price
was/is 2500.00, but I suggested he look more in the range of 1500-1800.
 Reggie Goble jgoble@nishanet.com

------------------------------

From: Brad Bowles <wolds@napanet.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 00:39:25 -0300
Subject: HI PERFORMANCE AIR SHOCKS

I am looking for good or hi performance air shocks to replace the
originals in my '70 442.  Does anyone know of any companys that sell
these?  I need more dampening but like the convenience of air shocks.
Thanks
Brad
'70 442

------------------------------

From: Christian Fair <cfair@fairisaac.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 00:53:34 -0300
Subject: Shocks

I've run KYB gas-adjust shocks for a long time on my 98 and think
they're fantastic. Firm enough to get the boat float out, soft enough to
make the most of the big car ride. Very, very cool cf

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 23:35:43 -0300
Subject: The Painful Truth...(long)


     Yes, Oldsmobile's image has suffered and sales have fallen
     dramatically.  I see two major reasons:  lack of a clear-cut
division
     image and nondescript, mistargeted products.

     As far as division image is concerned, Olds at one time in the not
too
     distant past was supposed to position itself as the GM division for

     baby boomers intending to buy an upscale import (Lexus, BMW,
Infinity,
     Acura).  This is actually a good plan in my opinion, but it has
been
     poorly executed, both in product development (more later) and in
     marketing.

     The classic example is Oldsmobile's concentration on sponsoring
NHRA drag
     racing.  Let me say first of all that I'm probably one of the
biggest
     fans of Warren Johnson and given my affinity for musclecars, drag
racing
     is my motor sport of choice, however I seriously doubt that Olds
will
     find may of its target buyers in the stands at the Winternationals.
This
     might have made sense if Olds still built tire-smoking rear-drive
442s
     and H/Os, but the product development has been towards more
import-type
     autos.

     Adding insult to injury, despite Oldsmobile's domination of many of

     the stock-bodied drag racing classes (especially Pro Stock), almost

     zero effort went into promoting these wins!  Sure, Olds would take
out
     full page ads in National Dragster, but how many Lexus owners
     subscribe?  Most mainstream Olds advertising seems to concentrate
on
     the Modern Maturity market (sponsoring golf tournaments, for
example).

     Clearly, the switch to endurance racing and now IRL will reach much

     more of the target audience.  Unfortunately, as has been pointed
out
     in previous posts, it almost seems as if Olds is embarrassed to
     promote its wins over Porsche and Ferrari.

     Back to product.  I travel a lot, and as a result I spend a lot of
     time in rental cars.  I avoid Avis if at all possible, mainly
because
     most new GM cars suck.  Yes, I realize that the typical rental
fleet
     ride may not represent the best possible combination of options for

     the car model in question, but most rental cars today are pretty
well
     optioned out.  I had the unfortunate privilege of spending two
months
     in a Cutlass Ciera last year while on an extended business trip to
So
     Cal.  This staple of rental fleets is virtually unchanged in
styling,
     handling, and ergonomics since it was released in 1982!.
     Unfortunately, it (along with twin Buick Century) is probably a
major
     moneymaker for GM, as the development effort and tooling must have
     been amortized over a decade ago!  Unfortunately, this is also the
     impression most frequent flyers (whose demographics likely match
those
     of Olds' target customers) have of GM and Oldsmobile.

     I contrast this experience with that of the Ford T-Bird which I
also
     rented for an extended period.  Despite the fact that the Bird was
a
     run-of-the-mill LX version, it was a blast to drive.  Even the
     luxo-level suspension handled well, the interior was comfortable
and
     well laid out, and the SOHC 4.6 liter modular V-8, while not up to
     W-30 standards, was a kick to drive.  Thus my preference for Hertz.

     How to fix Oldsmobile Division.  Although I'm apparently not going
to
     get the call to replace John Rock, I think there are a number of
     things Olds could do to significantly boost the division's
reputation
     and, ultimately, profits.  GM has long suffered from too many
     identical, overlapping products.  During the darkest parts of the
     80's, it was often impossible for the car-buying public to
     differentiate between an Olds, a Buick, or a Pontiac.  The various
GM
     divisions _must_ each define its own niche and than stick to it.
This
     is obviously easy to say, and the pressures of Corporate GM surely
     effect this, but I feel this has been the single biggest error of
all
     the GM divisions.

     Since Olds has targeted the "import intenders", the product mix
should
     certainly reflect that.  I feel the best bet would be to steal a
page
     from Lexus and Infinity, and promote value at the high end of the
     market.  Olds has a number of products which, with a minor
development
     effort, could be very effectively positioned against Lexus,
Infinity,
     and even BMW for significantly lower prices.

     Let's start with the easy one.  Carroll Shelby's Aurora-powered
     don't-call-it-a-Cobra will certainly be the halo car Olds needs.
Many
     liken this to the Viper, and the car will certainly bring media
     attention to Olds, however I fear that it will not have the same
     effect on Olds that the Viper has had on Dodge and Chrysler.
(Ducks
     as Achieva parts fly overhead)  I say this because the Viper was
     designed and developed in-house at Chrysler, proving that the
     automaker could do something outrageous and (dare we say!) fun.  In

     addition, Chrysler has gotten a lot of mileage out of the fact that
it
     is a forward-thinking company which builds this "Viper" personality

     into all of its products.  Witness the recent Chrysler ads in the
     media linking the spirit of the Viper (and now the Prowler) to its
     minivans.

     Olds will not have this capability with the Shelby car.  What the
     company must do is leverage this publicity into a less expensive
but
     similar car which _was_ done in-house.  Here is where the aim of
the
     division's products at the potential Lexus/Infinity/BMW buyers is
     important.  Picture a two-door version of the Aurora (yes, based on

     the Riviera body) with a 300 hp version of the Aurora V-8, a taut
     suspension, leather four-passenger interior, and all the bells and
     whistles.  This would be an SC400 killer for $10K less than the
Lexus.
     If done right, it could also attract potential BMW 540 buyers.
Build
     the car in coupe and convertible versions (it'll be tough to
maintain
     that vaunted 25 Hz body structure on the ragtop, however).  You
could
     even name it (wait for it, Mike...) the Toronado.  (Well, ok, maybe

     not.  Seriously, I'm afraid that the Toro name would be a detriment
in
     the target market unless Olds was willing to do a _lot_ of PR work)

     The beauty of this car is that people drawn into the showrooms to
look
     at the Shelby will be able to afford this neo-Toro.  The only
     drawback, of course, is that it will be a FWD platform up against
two
     enthusiast RWD cars.

     The Aurora is clearly a nice ride as it is, however there isn't a
car
     on the road that couldn't use an extra 100 hp.  Produce an uprated
     version with engine, suspension, and interior mods and position
this
     car opposite the LS400 and the Q45.  Again, the Olds should be at
     least $10K less than the Japanese cars, a formula which worked
wonders
     for those two until they got greedy and prices went through the
roof.

     While I suspect Aurora/Northstar engine production capacity will be
a
     limiting factor, I'd revamp the Bravada with an Aurora engine also.

     Currently, there is nothing to differentiate the Bravada from its
     Chevy and GMC siblings.  Give the truck the DOHC V-8 and it will be

     unique among the plethora of SUVs.  An Aurora-engined Bravada would
be
     direct competition for the Range Rover (still powered by its 35
year
     old B-O-P aluminum V-8), the LX450, and the Infinity Pathfinder
clone
     (the latter two both six-cylinder powered). Also, let us not forget

     the upcoming Mercedes AAV and Lincoln Navigator.  Again, a Bravada
     configured this way should sell for $10K - $15K less than the
     competition.  This one is a gimmie.

     OK, what about us hard-core hotrodders?  Unfortunately, a modern
W-30
     doesn't really fall within the context of Olds' target audience;
Chevy
     is the entry level and boy-racer division, while Pontiac is the
     "muscle car" (or at least what passes for one today) division.  In
the
     vein of imported performance/luxury cars, the BMW M5 is an
admirable
     benchmark.  This type of car needs RWD and a thumping V-8.  Others
     have suggested dropping the Intrigue body on an F-car floor pan;
Chevy
     actually did just that with a new Monte Carlo body last year as an
     engineering exercise.  While that car was for show only, it
certainly
     opens up the possibilities.  Picture a two-door Intrigue body on a
     cut-and-pasted F-car pan.  Like it or not, the new Camarobird is an

     outstanding performer.  Add an uprated Aurora engine (detect a
trend?)
     and a firm suspension and this car will be a killer.  I think it's
     ironic that the latest gadget in the performance car world is the
     Tiptronic/AutoStick "manual automatic" transmission.  Can you say
     "Dual Gate"?  This car would almost be a natural for a tie-in with
     Hurst, given the executive supercar image of the originals, however

     again, I don't think most people in the market for a BMW M5 even
know
     what an H/O was.  (OK, OK, 4.0 liter - 4 valves per cylinder - dual

     overhead cams... :))

     The normal Intrigue could be stiff competition for the Lexus ES300
     with the rumored Aurora-derived DOHC V-6.  Again, don't cut corners
on
     the suspension and interior.

     As for the new Cutlass, while I hate to see the name die, I don't
see
     how this car fits in with the target market.  Let Chevy have the
     Malibu crowd.

     Same for the (under) Achieva, or whatever the replacement car will
be
     called.  Pontiac probably sells more Grand Ams in a month than Olds

     sells Achievas in a year.  Loose it.

     The Silhouette is unfortunately a necessary evil.  Here again,
     position the van opposite that luxo-minivan benchmark, the Chrysler

     Town and Country.  A unique powertrain would help set the vehicle
     apart - that DOHC V-6 would be a nice touch.

     Don't get me wrong, nothing would please me more than to see the
     modern-day version of the W-30.  Unfortunately, the market isn't
there.
      Concentrating on the high-end import intender market will likely
     reduce Olds' market share, at least initially, however it should
     dramatically improve profitability.  These cars tend to have
     significantly higher profit margin than those lower down on the
food
     chain.  Ultimately, with cars of this caliber on the street, the
     division's reputation (and along with it, sales) will rise again.

     Joe Padavano
     jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

     66 442
     68 W-30
     69 H/O
     70 W-30

------------------------------

From: Christian Fair <cfair@fairisaac.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 00:55:46 -0300
Subject: FI Open vs. Closed Loop

I think you all know a lot more about this than me, but we still have a
question before the group:

has anyone tried, successfully or un- to retrofit FI on their SB or BB
olds? what were the details and result?

So far looks like this is a common pipe dream of interest, but
everybody's been scared off (like me) by complexity and price.

Comments?
cf

------------------------------

From: Christian Fair <cfair@fairisaac.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 00:49:23 -0300
Subject: RE: Salesmen's prices,equip,colors,trims specs

Roger,
Count me in for one for my 1966!
chris fair


>>They will be of only high quality and not like a xerox copy.  please
email me >>or the list with Yays or Nays or just plain input or even
just plain ole >>questions > >Yay.  But this not a commitment vote. >
>Roger Borlase >'72 Cutlass Cruiser

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 23:33:53 -0300
Subject: Displacements (was: Heidi Help!)

The Aurora is a 3.4L (I think, right?) and the Northstar is 4.0L. if I
remember correctly.

     Actually, the Aurora is 4.0L and the Northstar is 4.6L

     Joe Padavano
     jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

     66 442
     68 W-30
     69 H/O
     70 W-30

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@sequent1.providence.edu>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 00:56:06 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[4]: The EGR system on 403's- Info

At 02:57 PM 10/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>I checked my '78 Chassis Manual last night.  You probably have the
>>backpressure EGR.  Externally, the shank part of the valve makes a
turn >>instead of being straight.  And internally different - hollow
stem, etc. [snip] >>The spec calls for the valve to stay closed until
2" vacuum is applied.  It >>is fully open at 8.5" vacuum.  Vacuum
source is ported vacuum. > >Hmmm, where'd you get the spec?
>------------ >Please see first paragraph!  The ported vacuum source is
just above the

Yup, I saw that; what I meant was where in the Chassis Manual did you
find the specs? My '78 Buick Chassis manual has no such info in the Olds
engine section or in the Emissions Controls section.

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Std. Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block
boys) - - 1978 Electra Limited Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: grpruett@vt.edu (Greg Pruett)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 15:06:06 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds Target Market

>In a message dated 96-10-21 11:25:10 EDT, you write:
>
>> The current seems to be moving to position Oldsmobile to go after the
>>  imports. The discussion regarding the new logo and how it looks very
>>  "importish" is a very good example of that movement.
>
>But doesn't that seem to be what EVERYBODY is doing lately?  What are
folks >supposed to do that don't want an "importish" type car? > >Paul

Why, buy a $30,000 Dodge Ram, of course.  If it eats it's veggies it'll
grow into a Peterbilt. Every American needs a pickup truck.(sarcasm
intended)

Greg Pruett

`72 Vista-Cruiser

------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 01:38:17 -0300
Subject: Re: Salesmen's prices,equip,colors,trims specs

Count me in - I've got two cars in that time frame so thats of interest
to me.

Lisa Madsen

Heavy Metal Forever - '67 Delta 88 & '72 Vista Cruiser

Please E-Mail me at-----:  Lisa@hotglass.com

My Web-Page-----:  http://exo.com/~jht/olds/

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@sequent1.providence.edu>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 01:35:52 -0300
Subject: Re: GN

At 12:04 PM 10/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>  Does anyone know the curb weight for the Buick Grand National?

About the same as any other 2-door G-body; around 3500lbs as you'd find
them on the street (+/- a few hundred pounds, depending on how much gas
is in the tank and whether the driver is sticking to his diet...)

So, no, extremely light weight is not a factor; while the 245hp GN had
high 13/low 14 sec. 1/4mi. potential, the Monte SS and the H/O/442's,
with identical weight but with only a rated 180hp, were running 16.3's
(though occasional road test broke into the 15's, but not by much).

Apparently, for the GN the trick was in the launch; spool the turbo up
against the brakes to get some boost and let her rip when the light went
green. Without a brake-torque, the turbo didn't come in right away, and
the times were in the low 15's (these are the kind of times that
Consumer Reports would get out of these cars; kinda like the tests of
stick cars where the guy takes his foot off the gas to shift... ;). The
best road-tests, btw, were from a kind of hot rod/street racing magazine
out east here, based in New York, where they'd really beat the stuffing
out of each car they tested. These were the guys who had street-raced
the Motion Camaros and lightweight Hemi cars back in the '60's, so you
could say that they knew how to drive; they even got a stock-equipped
5.0 LX into the 13's with only a timing change and lower rear tire
pressure.

A friend had bought a new '86 T-type, and took me for a ride. We pull
out on the road, and he floors it. For a second, nothing much happened;
but _then_, the boost started to build, and the scenery *really* started
to fly by!

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Std. Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block
boys) - - 1978 Electra Limited Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 01:46:46 -0300
Subject: Re: FREE FREE FREE FREE Parts

I think I replied to you before - do you have the pass./driver (does it
matter??!!) rear wheel well molding off the '67 88?  I need one thanks
to my gardeners trying to edge between the house & the car (guess who
DIDNT get hit). I will P*A*Y for it & shipping (consider it sponsorship
for the 5 yrs. I ran an Olds in brackets locally)

Please let me know ASAP- do I get any brownie points for being a
neighbor from Wyoming !!?? (located in Anaheim CA now).

Thanks!
Lisa Madsen

Heavy Metal Forever - '67 Delta 88 & '72 Vista Cruiser

Please E-Mail me at-----:  Lisa@hotglass.com

My Web-Page-----:  http://exo.com/~jht/olds/

------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 01:54:12 -0300
Subject: Re:Help please

Chris:

I'm local - Anaheim - and this weeks Auto Trader has a couple '68's
(Domestic - Orange County - Oct. 17-24) keep an eye out - they're not
cheap in there & you should be able to come up with proof.  Are you a
member of the So Cal Chapter?  There's ads in there alot too - if you
need them, I'll look back through a few & send if it'll help.   Let me
know.


P.S.  Cant resist this either -
To anyone interested - in the above referenced Auto Trader (picture &
caption ads) there is a nice looking  '69 4-4-2, says all orig/numbers
matching needs work (looks clean body wise & has SSII ralleys) for $2500
- OBO (I never can resist those) @ 714/935-1420 - like I said its issue
dated 10/17 so could be gone.

Lisa Madsen

Heavy Metal Forever - '67 Delta 88 & '72 Vista Cruiser

Please E-Mail me at-----:  Lisa@hotglass.com

My Web-Page-----:  http://exo.com/~jht/olds/

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 02:19:42 -0300
Subject: Re: Visionary 442 sketches

>> Do we have any good
>>artists on the list?  Maybe I'll have to try sketching something out
>>someday.  I did one in high school molding an '84 into an F body
style, it >>was pretty cool.  It's gotta have big fat tires all over the
place, too:) >>We'll show those bowties what speed, cornering, ~and~
comfort is all about! >>(We always have, right?)

Wow my dream come true! I will donate my 88 Iroc as the prototype to
mold in to the modern day 442. We will show the bowties what speed and
comfort are,
but with cornering the bowties got us beat. It is very hard to beat the
handling characteristics of the 3rd generation (82-92) F-body. That is
why they win so many autocross championships. My 80 442 has the FE3
suspension and it no where compares to the base handling of the
Iroc....but I wish it did. I can see it now. Take my Z/28 badges off.
Replace them with 442 ones. Rip the 305 out and put in a H.O. version of
the Aurora V8. And for a few thousand more you can make the car a 442
W-30 with a supercharger and the GM 1LE handling package borrowed form
the Z/28 and WS6 T/A. Anybody have a garage I can take my car to so we
can start:) - - - - - - - - - - - - Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio
(z28cfi@gwis.com) or (jlabay@kent.edu) Sports Administration graduate
student at Kent State University 88 Camaro Iroc-Z/28...see it in the
December issue of Chevy High Performance 80 Olds 4-4-2  W-30.... see it
at http://www.442.com/labay.html

------------------------------

From: Gerald Gibson <gibson@webgate.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 02:12:43 -0300
Subject: Aftermarket Body Parts for Shelby's

Does anyone know where and if anyone sells aftermarket bodyparts
for Shelby Chargers such as different ground effects, rear spoilers,
custom hoods etc.  Any info would be greatly appreciated.

               Gerald Gibson
               gibson@webgate.net

------------------------------

From: VUBS79A@prodigy.com (MR DREW A DURIGAN)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 23:08:36 -0300
Subject: 'nother day in the life.

>Well, we got our second snowfall, and just like every year, I had to
jump
>start the Rockit this morning.  I ~hate~ winter.

Hey, Charley....come on down!  Florida is nice this time of year!  :-
)


>Siimilar to the aggressive statement they made when they ran down
*(up?) the
>Discover card)

Look at the bright side...at least you don't have to pay sales tax
out there, right?


- -Drew in Sunny Central Florida-

------------------------------

From: DrkSole@aol.com
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 03:31:53 -0300
Subject: Misc.

Ok, haven't been on for awhile, so here's a bit on current topics

Super/turbo-charging
 After some digging, found a reference in Popular Hot Rodding June,
1985,
 did an article on a Trans Am; had a Mondello 455, Holley 4bbl w/Metal
Concept
 Mach 2 centrifugal blower, at 10 lbs boost, had 600 hp. For roots
blowers,
 try Dyer's Machine Service, 1(708)-496-8100, Summit, Il.

Fuel Injection
 In Mar 96, Car Craft, reply to letter asking about subject was:
 "Big-block Olds engines never came with multipoint fuel Injection. You
  Must modify an existing aftermarket manifold with bosses for fuel
injection
  nozzles (single-plane "X-type" preferred) or fabricate a fuel
injection-
  compatible manifold from scratch. Try Batten Performacen (Dept.
CC,28884
  Highland Rd, Romulus, MI 48174, 313/946-9850). With EFI-compatible
manifold
  in hand, ACCEL Performance Products (Dept. CC, 8700 Brookpark Rd.
Cleveland,
  OH 44129, 216/398-8300) or Electromotive (Dept CC, 14004-J Willard Rd,

  Chantilly, VA 22021-2929, 703/378-2444) can supply the rest of the
system
  hardware and software."
 Also, Dick Miller Racing (2374 Windemre Dr, Jackson, MI 49202-1236,
 517/782-2012, FAX: 517/782-2232)is developing an EFI system for
Oldsmobiles.

F-Body Olds.
 Interesting idea, I'm all for an all out, modern Olds performance
machine.
 Ironically, if Muscle Car Review is to be believed, the H/O came about
 because the Pontiac wanted a 428 Firebird, and instead, Olds was given
the
 green light to make a 455 Cutlass to make up for the lack of an Olds
F-body.

Well, I suppose that's enough for today, sorry if post was alittle long.

DrkSole
 73 Cutlass Supreme
 67 Delta 88 (coming this weekend:)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 05:01:28 -0300
Subject: Re: Aurora V8 vs. Northstar (was: Heidi Help!)

>Aurora V8 = 4.0L ,   Northstar V8 = 4.6L
...  Yeah, that sounds right :)  they say the memory is the first thing
to go.  Yeah that sounds right, oh yeah, I just said that :)

>
>All the literature I've come across indicates that the Aurora engine
was >derived from the Northstar.  Cadillac introduced the Northstar
engine in >1993; it was standard on the Allante, ETC, and STS models.

     Noooooooo,  You're killing me!  I'd been told the opposite and
never followed up on it, and just took for granted that it was true.
This could break my heart :(



  BTW, in that
>engine blow up contest, was the stock computer used to run the engine?
>Just curious.
>
     I think so, although they had to do some mods.  It ran with the
stock 6500RPM rev limiter, which made things interesting.  It would
free-rev, then drop down about 500rpm, then free rev back up, and
oscillate there.  Quite a show.  I've got it all on video, and if I ever
get a capture card, that'll find a home on the web page, too
(highlights, anyway.  My server would shoot me if I stuck an hour long
video in there!)  The engine was impressive.  The coolant system was
sealed (no radiator, just bypass hoses) and the oil was stock stuff.
They let the thing free rev for about fifteen minutes before it finally
died.  They then let the Diesel challenger give it a shot.  It went for
about five, if I remember right (but we ~all~ know how that goes) After
the diesel puked, they changed a fuse in the wiring harness on the
Northstar, and fired it back up.  It ran for another half hour or so!
We pulled it apart the next week to inspect the damages.  The oil was
the most repugnant thing I have ever smelled in my life!  Just awful.
The bearings were blued a bit, but not worn down much at all.  The crank
sensor had gotten so hot it melted and stretched, and contacted the
crankshaft.  That's what killed it.  They planned to change the oil and
the crank sensor, and run it again next year. (No other changes)  I'm
impressed with it, anyway.

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 05:01:34 -0300
Subject: Re: Visionary 442 sketches

>>
>> Unfortunatly I am scanner-less.
>>
>      I have a scanner but I am located in Ontario Canada.  If you want
>I have no problem to scanning and sending these for you.  Anything to
>help a fellow Olds enthusiast.  Good Luck.  E-mail me if interested.
>
>                Gerald Gibson
>                Gibson@webgate.net
You can send to me, too, if you like I don't know what it costs (if any
extra) to send to Canada...)  My addresses are below.  How detailed do
you want?  I can scan that critter up past fifty meg if I wanted to, and
print it out life size (if I'm ~really~ bored and feeling very generous
with my ink cartridges :)  I found a really nice swimsuit type model on
the net, and I made one of those life size for the wall.  Turned out
really cool, but on the fast/low print quality, I used up most of the
ink I had!  Well worth it in the comments alone.  Everyone is suprised
when I explain how I made it! My roommate's 16 Gallon of Bud helped out
in that project as well)

     I can do ~normal~ scans too:)

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 05:01:37 -0300
Subject: Re: HI PERFORMANCE AIR SHOCKS

>I am looking for good or hi performance air shocks to replace the
>originals in my '70 442.  Does anyone know of any companys that sell
>these?  I need more dampening but like the convenience of air shocks.

My advice (and I know a few will back me, actually I'm backing them) is
to go with air bags.  I'm running them with SensaTracs on the GS, and it
is just amazing.  One $60 pair of balloons gave me posi.  I have to try
awfully hard to get it to spin one.  When I did it, it took an hour of
argueing to convince a friend that it was not a real posi.  I was doing
burnouts everywhere for him!  It was kinda fun, tho:)  We ended up
lifting the axle before he would believe me that it was an open
differential.  ~That's~ the way to combine ride, handling, and load.

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 05:01:39 -0300
Subject: Re: 'nother day in the life.

>Hey, Charley....come on down!  Florida is nice this time of year!

     Somehow I knew ~that~ was coming :)


>Look at the bright side...at least you don't have to pay sales tax
>out there, right?

        Yes, good point...

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: Esko Ilola <esko.ilola@tele.telebox.fi>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 05:39:47 -0300
Subject: RE: 'nother day in the life

> start the Rockit this morning.  I hate winter.  I go through roughly
four > KMart Exide 1000CCA batteries every year, and it doesn't even
matter what > car they're in.  They just don't last.  Anyway, I went to
class, then to

How come your batteries last not longer than that?
Try some other brand. This could save both money and your nerves.

Another good item against winter is the water warmer. (or what do
you call it). It keeps your engine warm and gives it smoother
start. Cranking a cold (I mean really COLD) engine stresses it
more than a ride of 100 miles or so.

Then another problem are the freezing and them jammed door locks.
The best way to smelt these down is to fill a plastic bag with warm
water and put it against the door. I don't recommend usage of
lock smelting oil because it seemingly addicts the locks. Once put
in there you have to squirt it in every time you enter your car.

It is a good idea to have equal tires in all corners. This makes the
behaviour of your car more predictable on the slippery roads.
A common mistake is to buy new rear tires and keep the front tires.
As a result you have good grip on the back but you might lock your
front-tires and thus loose your steering during braking. This effect
becomes even more peculiar if you have a lot wider tires in the back.

I actually like winters, especially when they are cold enough. Nothing
could be more boring than to have a winter with rain. Snow is a lot
better because it lights up the landscape. And when the temperature
gets well below zero (freezing point) the roads are not so slippery
than they would be in mild conditions.

I drive our Olds every day. Including the coldest winter days. If anyone
wants to get information on how to keep your car going during winter, I
would like to give some hints on this subject.

- --
**********************************************
* Esko Ilola                                 *
* Email esko.ilola@tele.telebox.fi           *
* X400  G=esko S=ilola O=tele A=mailnet C=fi *
* Tel.  +358 2040 3439                       *
* Mail  Ukonkivenpolku 7B5                   *
*       01610 VANTAA                         *
*       FINLAND                              *
**********************************************
* Oldsmobile Ninety Eight 1964               *
*            Holiday Sports Sedan (4D HT)    *
**********************************************

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 08:26:06 -0300
Subject: Re: Quad 4's etc..

I would like to know if the Quad 4 powering the turbo project you
mention (is this CJ Batten's Olds Aerotech?) is a PRODUCTION engine or
a racing derivative...I mean if you think about the numbers..1,000hp
from 144ci..that's almost 7hp/cube.  That's a whole hell of a lot to be
asking out of a late model production casting...that's a lot to ask out
of ANY production casting.  That's on the level with a 2,500hp 350ci
engine, or a 3185hp 455 ci engine....there's just no way a production
350 or 455 casting is going to handle that kind of power production.
To handle 4-5hp per cube, turbo Buick racers go with racing blocks...

------------------------------

From: Todd Morris <tmorris@bt1dc18e.bet.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 10:32:54 -0300
Subject: Mail order Tools


Hey guys, I'm trying to find a large bench vise to help with my pending
front end
rebuild.  Problem is that the local stores don't seem to have ones large
enough, like around
100 lbs and +8 in. openings.  Any suggestions for good mail order tool
places???   Sears is
good but their shipping charge is ridiculous......

Todd Morris
71 442

------------------------------

From: John & Robin Whitcore <retrotek@phoenixat.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 05:53:49 -0300
Subject: Parts needed to complete restoration

Hi all!

We need a'71 Cutlass stock 1 Wheel with trim ring AND also need to find
for a '71 Cutlass the "2 front pieces on the front fenders that mount
behind the eyebrow moulding to the radiator support". Sorry for the
vague description.(What are these called?)

Thanks.....j&r

------------------------------

From: VUBS79A@prodigy.com (MR DREW A DURIGAN)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 10:44:59 -0300
Subject: Re: 'nother day in the life.

>>Look at the bright side...at least you don't have to pay sales tax

>>out there, right?

       > Yes, good point...

Working in radio, I move around a lot.  I lived in Oregon for a
couple of years which, like Montana, has no sales tax.

- -Drew in Sunny Central Florida-
 (no state income tax here, so I guess it all evens out)


------------------------------

From: Robert Myers <habs33@jtasd.k12.pa.us>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 05:15:43 -0300
Subject: Newbie

Igeuss I never formally introduced myself to the list. My names Rob
Myers and I own a 70' Cutlass Supreme. I'm 16 and the Cutlass is my
second car. I bought the car for $1200. The body has only one rust
spot on the lower left rear quarter panel. The interior is good exept
for a little rip in the head liner and the buckets and carpet need to
be replaced. Under the hood is a 350 with a 4 barrel carb. It really
starts bad in the cold but I just found out that their is no choke(
problem solved). I plan to modifie it alot but still maintain some
originality. The list has been helpful so far. I'm glad I subscribed
because now I have disk brakes curtesy of a 71' Monte Carlo.

------------------------------

From: zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 10:18:48 -0300
Subject: Re: Oldsmobile Book-- Swords

Well, Tom, you could let your buddy make the swords for you, get them
chromed, and bold them to the side of a Cutlass!  Maybe?  Or bolt a
ocuple of them to the front in sort'a a "bull horns" style.  Put one
upright, a Cutlass with a razor-sharp sword sticking straight up, off
the grill, now that would be intimidating!  I've got one of the old
'50's "true" rocket crests, that I've thought of putting on the header
panel of my '84 Cutlass.

Peace, Goodwill, and Happy Oldsmobilling,
Clayton Pierce
zcwp11@access.etsu-tn.edu
'84 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme (350 4bbl. 66k miles)
'80 Rover 3500 (215 EFI V8 85k miles)
'72 Mercury Marquis Brougham (429 4bbl. 110k miles)

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 10:21:39 -0300
Subject: RE: Olds Target Market

It would be nice if the American car manufacturers created their own
style, instead of imitating someone else's.

- ----------
From: PHartlieb@aol.com[SMTP:PHartlieb@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, October 21, 1996 9:54 PM
To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: Re: Olds Target Market

In a message dated 96-10-21 11:25:10 EDT, you write:

> The current seems to be moving to position Oldsmobile to go after the
>  imports. The discussion regarding the new logo and how it looks very
>  "importish" is a very good example of that movement.

But doesn't that seem to be what EVERYBODY is doing lately?  What are
folks supposed to do that don't want an "importish" type car?

Paul

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:20:13 -0300
Subject: Re: For Sale 66 Toro

Jeramy Goble wrote:
>
> Was anyone interested in the 66 Toro I looked at last week. Maybe I
> didn't get the mail out as I thought.

Oh, I got it.  Just no bucks for another one.   :(

Do you want me to forward this to the Olds list?

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: DESIMONEP@aol.com
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 10:31:11 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds Target Market

In a message dated 96-10-21 13:12:43 EDT, you write:

> Now you have me all cranked up. I bought my Cutlass in 1986, new, and
have > been waiting 10 years, almost 11 to trade it in for a new
olds.... I am still > waiting.... :) > >  As long as there is enough
revenue to be had in mediocrity, nothing will > change.

I know what you're feeling! I have to buy my wife a new "something", and
I can't find anything new to really get excited about! For my families
safety I'm leaning towards a 97 GMC Suburban, 3/4 ton, 4x4, 454, with
dual airbags and Antilock brakes. (I showed her the Aurora, but she said
she wanted a truck, honest, actually I wasn't too impressed with the new
Olds trucks either but I did go to Olds first!) FOR ME it's always going
to be my 68 Cutlass "S" ragtop, I'm sure it will outlast me!

My advice to you, if you wanna know.....  Keep your current Olds, or get
another one that is older. If you look, you can find an older one that
is in good shape, and a lot easier to maintain than a newer one.

Phil De Simone
1968 Cutlass "S" Convertible 455 w/ air
1967 Chevrolet Custom 10 Pickup (Stepside w/ long bed)
1985 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 (dead in the driveway, with a craked block and
heads)
1984 Honda Prelude (WRECKED and TOTALLED but insurance paying for new
truck!!) [because the elderly lady that hit my wife was well insured and
at fault, if you wanted to know and you read this far!!!]

------------------------------

From: DESIMONEP@aol.com
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 10:35:56 -0300
Subject: 700R4 or 6 speed for 68 455??

Hello,

I haven't written a lot, but I do read all the posts. Great stuff, this
is the best list I've been on so far, and I've read a lot!

I am about to change the trans setup on my car, 1968 Olds Cutlass "S"
Convertible. Specifics- 455 with open air cleaner, Edelbrock 850 CFM
Rochester, Edelbrock Performer intake, MSD Blaster 3 coil, MSD Pro
Billet Distributor (mechanical advance), MSD 6AL Ignition box, rebuilt
motor w a little machine work on the heads, the rest pretty much stock
(READ, I live in Calif.) 6 row radiator with dual electric fans (Black
Magic M-150's), and large trans cooler w eletric fan, NO heat problems
anymore, EVER! Removeable steering wheel, Sony MiniDisc changer,
everything else is stock.

So..... I want to replace the TH-400, I know, I know, but I need to be
able to take long trips across the country with the way gas prices are
going!! I will not give up my big block, so I'll have to do it with
gearing. My rear end is great, and don't want to change it. My friend
has a 96 Camaro SS (#29 of 3000 "and" you want to know who won the
race?? He learned that you just can't replace cubic inches!! "but it was
closer than I'd like to admit!") and just got back from Ohio (we live in
San Jose, CA) and got over 500 miles on 1 "ONE" tank of gas! It's a
combination of things in his case, but I believe the major factor is his
gearing and his 6 speed trans.

So..... Ladies and Gentleman, tell me what you think. I know the 6 speed
presents a lot more money since I would have to install an extra pedal
and clutch linkage, a floor mount (mine is on the column), a new
steering column, and driveline mods, I'm willing to spend the money if
it's worth it.

OR..... the 700R4, I know not simple, but more simple than the 6 speed
option?

Thanks,

Phil De Simone
desimonep@aol.com
1968 Cutlass "S" Convertible
1967 Chevrolet Custom 10 Pickup
1985 Chevrolet Camaro Z28

------------------------------

From: Steve Ochs <76057.1404@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 10:36:27 -0300
Subject: '86 442

Steve,
     The 1986 442 transmission should have very firm shifts - i.e. brk
the tires on 1-2 shift at full throttle.  The 1987 2004R was
recalibrated by Hydramatic at Oldsmobile's request and is a very soft
transmission, even in the 442.  My '87 442 has never had a firm shift,
so I installed a shift kit.  I tried the B&M kit - - do NOT use!!!  It
improved all shifts EXCEPT the 1-2 shift.  A call to B&M was fruitless.
I ended up modifying the 1-2 accumulator myself and now have a firm but
not harsh 1-2 shift that barks tires at full throttle.  The experts in
the 2004R is Art Carr Transmissions.  They have a kit for about $59 that
supposedly works well.  Also, if you are in overdrive at about 45 or 50
mph and you kick it into passing gear it will be sluggish.  In order to
not break components in the transmission, it downshifts in the following
sequence: 1) drop out torque converter lockup, 2) downshift from 4 to 3,
3) downshift from 3 to 2.  This takes approx. 2 seconds.  The solution
is to have it in Drive (3) and it will responds much faster on full
throttle downshifts (detent downshift).
     By the way, your transmission should have a three letter code on
the case. The correct one for a 442 is KZF.  See if you can find a tag
on the side back by the drive shaft and get the information off of it.
I can tell you where it came from and what model it is. You probably did
not get your old one back or they recalibrated it wrong.  Also make sure
the TV cable is adjusted properly.  That will dramatically affect shift
points and shift feel.

Steve Ochs - Engineer - GM Powertrain - Transmission Division
'87 442
'76 Cutlass S

------------------------------

From: Steve Ochs <76057.1404@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 10:45:31 -0300
Subject: '86 442

P.S. Addresses and phone numbers for three performance transmission
shops, in order of preference:

Art Carr Performance Transmission Products
10575 Bechler River Ave.
Fountain Valley, CA 92708
(714) 962-6655
Art Carr is the most knowledgeable in improving the performance in GM
overdrive transmissions such as the 200-4R and the 700-R4.

TCI Automotive
One TCI Dr.
Ashland, MS 38603
(601) 224-8972
TCI does work with GM overdrive transmissions but is not quite as
knowledgeable as Art Carr.

B&M
9142 Independence Ave.
Chatsworth, CA 91311
(818) 882-6422
Mostly works with non-overdrive transmissions.  Does a good job with
THM-300 or THM-400 but not very good with overdrive transmissions such
as 200-4R

Steve

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 10:48:36 -0300
Subject: RE: Olds Target Market

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBBFFE.32C9B960
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Actually, I am leaning towards an older (80s) vette for the summer. =
Definitely some type of convertible. I have no kids, so I can spend all
= my money on toys, and yes, I am going through a mid-life crisis, and =
don't plan on coming out the other side :) :)

I will probably keep my olds for winter. If I had to trade it now I =
would be looking at the MarkVIII. That is the kind of daily driver I =
want from olds. Hear that Heidi?

- ----------
From: DESIMONEP@aol.com[SMTP:DESIMONEP@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 1996 9:31 AM
To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: Re: Olds Target Market

In a message dated 96-10-21 13:12:43 EDT, you write:

> Now you have me all cranked up. I bought my Cutlass in 1986, new, and
= have=20 > been waiting 10 years, almost 11 to trade it in for a new
olds.... I = am still=20 > waiting.... :)=20 > =20 >  As long as there
is enough revenue to be had in mediocrity, nothing = will=20 >
change.=20

I know what you're feeling! I have to buy my wife a new "something", and
= I can't find anything new to really get excited about! For my families
= safety I'm leaning towards a 97 GMC Suburban, 3/4 ton, 4x4, 454, with
dual = airbags and Antilock brakes. (I showed her the Aurora, but she
said she wanted a truck, honest, actually I wasn't too impressed with
the new Olds trucks either but I did go to Olds first!) FOR ME it's
always going to be my 68 Cutlass "S" ragtop, I'm sure it will outlast
me!

My advice to you, if you wanna know.....  Keep your current Olds, or get
another one that is older. If you look, you can find an older one that =
is in
good shape, and a lot easier to maintain than a newer one.

Phil De Simone
1968 Cutlass "S" Convertible 455 w/ air
1967 Chevrolet Custom 10 Pickup (Stepside w/ long bed)
1985 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 (dead in the driveway, with a craked block and
heads)
1984 Honda Prelude (WRECKED and TOTALLED but insurance paying for new
truck!!) [because the elderly lady that hit my wife was well insured and
= at fault, if you wanted to know and you read this far!!!]




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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBBFFE.32C9B960--

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 10:00:58 -0300
Subject: More Chicago/Fuddruckers Meeting News

Just an update for those wondering if they will _ever_ see some
Chicago area Olds members' Fuddruckers get-together from Oct. 6th:

Our office move is looming Thursday night, which has hit us hard as
far as trying to pack and conduct daily business at the same time,
so all my off-hours time has been spent packing. HOWEVER: the photos
have been scanned in as JPG files of about 25K-30K each in size, and
I can email them as attached files via my Eudora emailer to any
interested parties... such as the people who were in those pictures.
A more organized web page will have to be postponed for now, unless
Bryce is willing to receive the emailed photos and slap something
together. (Bryce suddenly sits bolt upright in his chair: "Hey! I
never said anything about that!")

So for now, if you are willing and able to receive emailed JPG files
(attachments), remind me for the umpteenth time which car you were
driving that day and I'll be happy to email the relevant JPGs of your
car to you as quickly as I can. Gen-yoo-whine photos and enlargements
can follow when I get out from under. Sorry for all this delay...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: sbento@mecn.mass.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 11:12:00 -0300
Subject: Re: GN

On Tue, 22 Oct 1996, Robert J. Barry wrote:

> At 12:04 PM 10/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
> >  Does anyone know the curb weight for the Buick Grand National?
>
> Apparently, for the GN the trick was in the launch; spool the turbo up
> against the brakes to get some boost and let her rip when the light
went > green. Without a brake-torque, the turbo didn't come in right
away, and the > times were in the low 15's (these are the kind of times
that Consumer > Reports would get out of these cars; kinda like the
tests of stick cars > where the guy takes his foot off the gas to
shift... ;). The best > road-tests, btw, were from a kind of hot
rod/street racing magazine out east > here, based in New York, where
they'd really beat the stuffing out of each > car they tested. These
were the guys who had street-raced the Motion Camaros > and lightweight
Hemi cars back in the '60's, so you could say that they knew > how to
drive; they even got a stock-equipped 5.0 LX into the 13's with only > a
timing change and lower rear tire pressure.

Actually that magazine "Street/Strip Supercar" is missed by many people,
 they featured a couple of '68 442's one ran low 11's and the other low
 12's, I still have them somewhere, I'll have to dig them up, the two
guys who started that magazine now work for "Muscle Mustangs and Fast
Fords" and every performance trick I have tried from that magazine has
worked!!

> A friend had bought a new '86 T-type, and took me for a ride. We pull
out on > the road, and he floors it. For a second, nothing much
happened; but _then_, > the boost started to build, and the scenery
*really* started to fly by!

I remember the first time I got a ride in a GN, the owner installed a
shift kit and it would shift second so hard under boost that the dash
would squeak, and the rear tires screamed...:) Imagine if they had put a
 5 or 6 speed in that car....

Steve
71 Cutlass S 455
93 Mustang LX 5.0

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 11:14:49 -0300
Subject: Re: Posi

The other day a fellow in a 68 442, like mine, shouted to me on the
freeway that he had positraction that would fit my car.  He said that it
would cost me $300.  Was that a good price?  What would be the benefit
in having this device?

Chris Sparks

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:14:59 -0300
Subject: Re: The Painful Truth...(long)

Joe Padavano wrote:

> Yes, Oldsmobile's image has suffered and sales have fallen
> dramatically.  I see two major reasons:  lack of a clear-cut
> division image...

Which is exactly why I take issue with the new logo.  Name recognition
is a major goal of marketing.  How this can be improved by dropping a
distinctive and well known symbol with one that can easily be confused
with a dozen others is beyond me.

> and nondescript, mistargeted products.

Ahhh....  Yup.

And you right on target, Joe, about the racing vs the marketing.  Olds
has a VERY respectable history in racing.  Why do the seem to "disavow
any knowledge of their actions"?  Totally confusing.

> Unfortunately, as has been pointed out in previous posts, it almost
> seems as if Olds is embarrassed to promote its wins over Porsche and
> Ferrari.

Are we to belive that marketing has decided that those 40+ baby boomers
(of which I am one) would perfer to buy an Americanized Lexus/BMW with
the reputation of a wimp.  Come on!  We may be at the point where we
like comfortable cars but we damn sure jump up and cheer when its
brother wins at Daytona!

> Despite the fact that the Bird was a run-of-the-mill LX version, it
was > a blast to drive.

And as I sure Ford dealers can tell you, sales of T-birds typically go
up right after Ford wins a Winston Cup race.

> Although I'm apparently not going to get the call to replace John
Rock,

Hey, you got my vote!

> GM has long suffered from too many identical, overlapping products.

Second the motion.

> Since Olds has targeted the "import intenders", the product mix should
> certainly reflect that.

And "mix" is the operative word.

> Let's start with the easy one.  Carroll Shelby's Aurora-powered
> don't-call-it-a-Cobra will certainly be the halo car Olds needs.
> Many liken this to the Viper...

Speaking of Chrysler and a product mix, it would seems that they have
something for just about everybody... from Neons to Vipers.

> proving that the automaker could do something outrageous and (dare we
> say!) fun.

Fun.  Now there's a good word.  A car that is "fun".  Where do you get
these ideas, Joe?  Cars aren't supposed to be fun anymore, are they?
Just comfortable and get good gas milage.  We're not supposed to have
fun driving anymore.  It's not P.C.

> Witness the recent Chrysler ads in the media linking the spirit of the
 > Viper (and now the Prowler) to its minivans.

Uh-oh.  You getting back to that performance thing again.  Marketing
isn't going to like that.

> You could even name it (wait for it, Mike...) the Toronado.

Toro!  Toro!  Toro!

> Seriously, I'm afraid that the Toro name would be a detriment in
> the target market unless Olds was willing to do a _lot_ of PR work)

Oh, I think with a little help from Bobby Unser and some Pikes Peak
references, it's do-able.

> An Aurora-engined Bravada would be direct competition for the Range
> Rover (still powered by its 35 year old B-O-P aluminum V-8)...

Oooo.  I smell marketing ploy here.

> (OK, OK, 4.0 liter - 4 valves per cylinder - dual overhead cams... :))

HA!

> The Silhouette is unfortunately a necessary evil.  Here again,
> position the van opposite that luxo-minivan benchmark, the Chrysler
> Town and Country.

Still emulating.

> Don't get me wrong, nothing would please me more than to see the
> modern-day version of the W-30.  Unfortunately, the market isn't
there.

This has been mentioned before and, as I've mentioned before, this has
become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

How is this conclusion arrived at?  There are no W-30-type cars being
produced so naturally none are sold.  Where does the data come from?  A
marketing survey of first time buyers at the local Honda dealers?

Survey the (large) crowds at a IRL, CART, Winston Cup, or NHRA event.
If the market for a performance cars weren't there, the Miata, the
Corvette, the Viper, and that Prowler/Marauder thing wouldn't be worth
the effort.

"If you build it, they will come."

> Ultimately, with cars of this caliber on the street, the
> division's reputation (and along with it, sales) will rise again.

I'll drink to that.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: sbento@mecn.mass.edu
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 11:16:48 -0300
Subject: Re: Aftermarket Body Parts for Shelby's

I have a friend who is building a '68 Dodge Super Bee and he has a
"Mopar Performance" catalog which has tons of parts for Hemi's all the
way down to the 2.2's I would try them for parts, If they don't sell
them they could probably point you in the right direction.

Steve
71 Cutlass S 455
93 Mustang LX 5.0


On Tue, 22 Oct 1996, Gerald Gibson wrote:

> Does anyone know where and if anyone sells aftermarket bodyparts
> for Shelby Chargers such as different ground effects, rear spoilers,
> custom hoods etc.  Any info would be greatly appreciated.
>
>                Gerald Gibson
>                gibson@webgate.net
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 11:26:20 -0300
Subject: Re: Help please

Paul wrote:
>
> In a message dated 96-10-21 11:12:08 EDT, you write:
>
> I can only help with these numbers, but I'm confused.
>
> > Fischer body....
> >      10C 004227 410196
>
> 10C means the body was built the third week (C) of October (10),
probably '67

67? or 68?  I'm confused.

> >   ST 68 3477 BF 00054 B0?  \
>
> ST 68 means its a '68.  3477 has me confused.  Is that supposed to be
34477?

Yes.  Finger slip....

>  That would be an Oldsmobile (3) 442 Sports Coupe (4477).  But we had
some > discussion here a few months ago that the body tags didn't
reflect the 442 > trim, only the VIN would have the 34477 and the body
tag would have 3677 > which is a Cutlass S Sports coupe.  Should your
3477 be a 3677?

I have a 34477 on both the VIN and Fischer tag.

- -snip-

> Hope this helps.

It sure does.  Thanks.

BTW  How can you tell if the car is a W30?

Chris

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 11:30:17 -0300
Subject: Re:Help please

Lisa Madsen wrote:
>
> Chris:
>
> I'm local - Anaheim - and this weeks Auto Trader has a couple '68's
> (Domestic - Orange County - Oct. 17-24) keep an eye out - they're not
cheap > in there & you should be able to come up with proof.

Thanks :-)))

> Are you a member of
> the So Cal Chapter?  There's ads in there alot too - if you need them,
I'll

No I am not.  Would consider though...

> look back through a few & send if it'll help.   Let me know.

Any help would be appreciated.  What medium do you want to use for this
info? Let me know.

Chris

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 12:47:18 -0300
Subject: Re[6]: The EGR system on 403's- Info

I think I found it by finding EGR or Exhaust Gas Recirculation in the
index.  The regular and back pressure models are written up in adjoining
 sections.

David Brown          OCA ª27978         (312) 702-9157
    Check out: www.442.com      www.oldsmobile.com
               FAQ version 2.0 due soon!

- --------------
<snip>
Yup, I saw that; what I meant was where in the Chassis Manual did you
find the specs? My '78 Buick Chassis manual has no such info in the Olds
engine section or in the Emissions Controls section.

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Std. Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block
boys) - - 1978 Electra Limited Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:49:52 -0300
Subject: Re: Oldsmobile Book-- Swords

zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu wrote:
>
> Well, Tom, you could let your buddy make the swords for you, get them
> chromed, and bold them to the side of a Cutlass!

Hey, where's that oil guy with the crossed-sword logo on his Cutlass.
What was that he called it?  SKO?  SCO?

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 10:44:05 -0300
Subject: Re: The Painful Truth...(long)

>> Yes, Oldsmobile's image has suffered and sales have fallen
>> dramatically.  I see two major reasons:  lack of a clear-cut
>> division image...
>
>Which is exactly why I take issue with the new logo.  Name recognition
is >a major goal of marketing.  How this can be improved by dropping a
>distinctive and well known symbol with one that can easily be confused
>with a dozen others is beyond me.

Agreed. Personally I think the angled stroke through the oval is
supposed to represent a two-lane road. Whatever. But we have to grit
our teeth and live with it for the forseeable future, because a company
that just spent eight-bazillion corporate image dollars on a new logo,
signs, stationery and the works is not going to say "Ooops!" and throw
it out right away. The best we can hope for is an accelerated evolution
redirected towards a new rocket logo, with some marketing blather about
"reinforcing the Oldsmobile identity and recognizing our heritage" or
similar verbiage designed to painlessly admit that dropping the rocket
was not such a grand idea.

>> Unfortunately, as has been pointed out in previous posts, it almost
>> seems as if Olds is embarrassed to promote its wins over Porsche and
>> Ferrari.

To tell the truth, I didn't know this myself.

>> GM has long suffered from too many identical, overlapping products.
>
>Second the motion.

Um, yeah... but as a long-time Pontiac aficionado, I have to say that
at least they've held on to their red dashboard lighting even through
the bad years. I _really_ like that feature. :-) That and the heads-up
displays, which I'm relieved to say are also available on Olds models.

>Speaking of Chrysler and a product mix, it would seems that they have
>something for just about everybody... from Neons to Vipers.

Um, yeah... more comments on this below...

>> Witness the recent Chrysler ads in the media linking the spirit of
the >> Viper (and now the Prowler) to its minivans. > >Uh-oh.  You
getting back to that performance thing again.  Marketing >isn't going
to like that.

Are you sure? At worst it just means that they have to rent a water
truck for the next commercial so that they can wet down the road for
power slides. (And getting off on a tangent here: What _is_ it with TV
commercials and their constant need to show the advertised car doing a
slick turn-around spin-and-stop for the cameras? All this says to me is
"This car has severe traction problems in wet weather.")

>> The Silhouette is unfortunately a necessary evil.  Here again,
>> position the van opposite that luxo-minivan benchmark, the Chrysler
>> Town and Country.

Necessary evil? Well... my wife wants a minivan. If Olds offers one,
it might prevent me from shopping elsewhere. And minivans aren't niche
products; they're big business. So if Olds wants an income in that
market, they'll want a minivan of Olds flavor. Whether they have one
like that right now is a matter of opinion.

>This has been mentioned before and, as I've mentioned before, this has
>become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
>
>How is this conclusion arrived at?  There are no W-30-type cars being
>produced so naturally none are sold.  Where does the data come from?  A
 >marketing survey of first time buyers at the local Honda dealers? >
>Survey the (large) crowds at a IRL, CART, Winston Cup, or NHRA event.
If >the market for a performance cars weren't there, the Miata, the
Corvette, >the Viper, and that Prowler/Marauder thing wouldn't be worth
the effort. > >"If you build it, they will come."

Hear, hear. This is something Chrysler has learned. I am not likely to
buy a Viper or Prowler until a lot of other things in my life have been
paid for, but if and when the opportunity arises, well, Olds does not
have anything similar. (Of course, by that time I would already bought
a restored 442 or something similar from the glory days, so please
save your email. :-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 10:49:44 -0300
Subject: Re: Oldsmobile Book-- Swords

>> Well, Tom, you could let your buddy make the swords for you, get them
>> chromed, and bold them to the side of a Cutlass!
>
>Hey, where's that oil guy with the crossed-sword logo on his Cutlass.
>What was that he called it?  SKO?  SCO?

SKO: "Six Knights of Olds". I think he said it was a pot-metal logo and
stainless steel targa band on a Cutlass. In subsequent discussion the
conclusion at the time was it was some sort of local dealer package in
the (Florida, was it?) area; there were other regional packages heard
about from other areas of the country as well. Here in Chicago we had
the "GMO" ("Gallant Men of Olds") model, for instance.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Mike Coccagna" <mikec@oz.kis.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 12:53:26 -0300
Subject: New models to ponnder / Olds Target Market

As some of us wishfully dreamed of a new Olds to drive, targeted
towards a PERFORMANCE image, images of many cars combined danced in
our heads.  I proposed a merging of a Intrigue with a F-body, others
seemed to echo simular thoughts.

Last night, while catching up on weekend TV I taped (the Yanks looked
too bad by 9:15), I watched this weekends edition of Motor Trend.
They promo'ed the show with a statement of 470 BHP Monte Carlo.

As the show progressed, they displayed the new Ch*vy Tahoe police
truck, and then.....  a goofy green new Monte appeared with smoke
billowing from the REAR tires!  Seems the Chevy guys have been taking
flak about introducing a FWD Monte, and the Chevy version of SVT, the
same ones who built the Impala SS, decided to give it a try.  The car
was powered by a slightly built up LT1 and looked virtually the same
as the FWD one, except for the wide tires on the back.

Perhaps Oldsmobile will get the idea the public LIKES this type of
car and perhaps take over the project (not likely), or join forces,
putting a Olds powerplant in the LT1 place for the Olds.  (Heidi are
you there?  Can you forward an idea of this along?)  Olds still makes
RocketParts, and the people of this division should be able to pull
off some of the engineering for the mechanicals.

Of course, since Olds is targeting the import market, saying that
history has no meaning, we should all possibly contact the other GM
division.  They seem to remember the people (and cars) that made them
popular.  Olds sold the best selling car for several years (anyone
remember the Cutlass), and that car is still very popular.  Proof of
the Cutlass popularity when it was a RWD car is witnessed by
observing traffic for a few minutes.  You are more likely to see the
last RWD generation Cutlass than the newer model.

I am begining to feel better now that I am venting on this subject,
and my FWD Quad442 seems to defy my argument, but for me, it was the
closest match to a performance car that didn't look like every other
car on the road and wasn't an import.

Thanks for listening -

Mike
'91 W-40 Quad442
must

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #339
******************************** 
