To:	oldsmobile-digest @ chebucto.ns.ca@INTERNET1
cc:	 
From:	oldsmobile-digest-owner @ chebucto.ns.ca@INTERNET1 @ ABTLAB
Date:	12/02/96 07:52:49 PM
Subject:	oldsmobile-digest V1 #389


oldsmobile-digest         Monday, 2 December 1996      Volume 01 :
Number 389


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Frank Boerger <103454.317@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 15:00:59 -0400
Subject: Test - Discard

Test message @ 1400 hrs.

------------------------------

From: Fernando Proietto <proietto@dow.on.doe.ca>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 11:25:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Heads.... which are better... #5's, or #7's?

I'm using #5 heads on my '72 442 350. I too heard the flow better
rumour. I havn't used the car much since the rebuild so I really can't
tell wether any problems have arisen. Although, with this rebuild I did
not do anything to the heads, they were bone stock. The only thing I did
was I block off the heat riser with those cast alumiunun block you can
get from mondello, they have to be ground to fit though, big job..
Anyway I will taking the heads off this winter in order to rebuild them
and I will report on they appearance then.

BTW way how do you find out what size valves you have/need withthe head
off, do you measure the outside diameter of the valve of the inside
diameter of the opening?

Fernando
'72 442

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:35:13 -0400
Subject: CA 66 Toro For Sale

Toro-weenies,

Got a message from Byron Granmo in reference to a 66 Toro he went to
look at in southern California.  It had been offered for sale by Don
Sevart in the October issue of Hemmings Motor News.  When Byron
travelled down there to look at the car, Don refused to let him drive
it.  Don said HE would drive the car "anyway you want" but wouldn't let
Byron take a turn behind the wheel.  Strange...

Byron also said that this guy Don was really a pretty nice guy just a
little wierd about the test drive thing.

So...  If anybody plans to travel to see Don's Toronado, I suggest you
get the test drive issue settled before you pack you bags.

BTW, Byron walked away from the deal.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:13:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Alsetta/Isetta

> > The only automobile I can recall named "Isetta" came from BMW and
> > was barely larger than a refrigerator (and just one
refrigerator-style > > door in the front).

> No, Sir;  that is exactly the RIGHT Isetta.  They dropped an Allison
in (or > maybe on) I don't remember many details after 25 years, and
called it the > Alsetta.

Oh my gawd!  I can't believe that.  How on earth could you possibly
fit that engine in that car??? Maybe with a SEVERE body stretch.
Then you'd still have to fabricate some kind of trans... the tires
would likely break free when you put an egg on the gas pedal...
the aerodynamics of the car were such that I can't imagine it being
stable at any kind of speed... After I'm finished with this semester
I'm going to see if I can find more info on this.  Got any leads?

- - Travis and the 69 olds 98 convertible aka "Tiny"
- --
Travis McWaters                           Transmission Products Division
tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com               DSC Communications Corporation

------------------------------

From: tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:38:04 -0400
Subject: anybody on the list in the NY (212) area?

Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy, oh boy!!! I'm _really_ excited...
I've found an add for a pair of 1969 Olds 98 convertibles for sale!
The catch is that the phone number is in the 212 area, and I of course
am not in the 212 area -- not even close.  I haven't contacted the owner
 yet (left a message), but I was wondering if I might get luckey enough
 to find an Olds list member that was close the the cars and could take
 a look at them for me.  I'm in Dallas so it'll be difficult/impossible
for me to go look at the cars myself.  I don't need an "expert" opinion,
just a basic assesment of what is there and a visual confirmation of the
seller's info (vin number, etc) would be wonderful.  They are only
asking $1400 for both cars (one working, one parts car) so I don't have
very high expectations, but even if I just end up with two parts cars
this would be worth it.

The other big deal is if I do decide to buy the cars, how the heck am
I going to get these cars to Dallas????  I remember some discussion
on the list some time back about good and bad experiences with
auto transport companies.  I already plan to grab a copy of the
latest Hemmings for a list of places to call.  Any references
(good or bad) will help me wade through the long list of posiblitites.
How much should I expect to pay to get two LARGE cars transported from
somewhere around New York to Dallas?


- - Travis and the 69 olds 98 convertible aka "Tiny"
- --
Travis McWaters                           Transmission Products Division
tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com               DSC Communications Corporation

------------------------------

From: tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:15:24 -0400
Subject: Re: upsidedown engines?

> ... I'd say that the motor would "have to" be EFI though.
> Upside down carburretor would not be good!

They do make "updraft" carbs.  I don't know if Olds ever used
them but I ran into a Buick slant-6 in a boat that had one.
I think the engine in question was a mid 50's design.


- - Travis and the 69 olds 98 convertible aka "Tiny"
- --
Travis McWaters                           Transmission Products Division
tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com               DSC Communications Corporation

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:08:24 -0400
Subject: Re: oldsmobile-digest V1 #386

>The Wiz mentioned about the quality from Mother GM. I will be
>the first one to admit GM's quality during the mid 80's left
>a lot to be desired.  We have improved greatly, [...]
>
>---------------------------
>|                         |
>|     ##     ###     ###  |
>|   #    #   #  #   #  #  |
>|  #         #   # #   #  |
>|  #   ####  #    #    #  |
>|   #    #   #         #  |
>|     ##     #         #  |
>|                         |
>|  The Mark of Exellence  |
>---------------------------
                ^^^^^^^^^
Oh, please tell me you're trolling...  :-)

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:51:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Heads.... which is better... #5's, or #7's?

At 01:06 AM 12/2/96 -0400, Robert J. Barry wrote:

>The 1972 350's used the same castings as the previous years; the only
>difference was that the exhaust valve seats were hardened (induction
>hardened, as opposed to pressed-in seats) to deal with the newfangled
>unleaded gasoline. Likewise, the 1972 455's used the same "G" castings,
with >induction-hardened exhaust valve seats

Not to be picky, but a 72 Toro in my yard has a "J" head 455....
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com) or (jlabay@kent.edu)
93 Z/28......Patriot Red, A4, G92(3.23), PEG2........ a real muscle car
80 4-4-2  W-30 ( Actually a 4-3-1 W-30  in reality)..a pretend muscle
car 75 Hurst/Olds W-25.....restoration project that is currently up for
$sale$

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 04:52:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Toro identity please

Robert J. Barry wrote:
>
> At 05:51 PM 12/2/96 -0500, you wrote:
> >The Toro wheels on early cars ('66-68) are usually exposed w/small
> >hubcaps & trim rings on the outer edge.  The disc brake wheels have a
1 > >1/2" deep stainless trim ring while the non-disc wheels have a 4"
deep > >stainless trim ring - much like the more modern "ralley wheels". >
 > Hmmm, my drum-braked (broke?) '69 Toro would in no way ever take a
4" trim > ring; did they start using the shallower disc-brake rims in
all applications > on the '69's? My rims also have the metal stems
coming out from the middle > of the rim; of course, this was a
wheelcover car, so maybe that is the reason? > > >Some Toro's have full
wheel covers.  These are ordinary "big > >Oldsmobile"  styles.  They
just go over the front wheel drive type > >wheels. > > One note: Though
the style is the same, the actual wheelcover is sometimes > different.
The '69 deluxe wheel cover on the full-size RWD cars has an > recessed
center, which would never clear the rim on a Toro; thus, the deluxe >
Toro covers have a center section that is flush with the rest of the >
wheelcover. Which is why I've got a later Eldorado wheelcover replacing
the > nearly-impossible to find '69 deluxe wheelcover that fell off
sometime > during my car's lifetime. >
_______________________________________________________ > Dr. Robert
Barry

Bob,

I beleve that the disc brake wheel became the standard by about '69 or
so.  My '67 is drum braked, but I have repaced the original wheels
w/disc brake chrome ones from a '69.  They fit just fine.

My car came w/wheelcovers - also impossible to find - of which I have
one damaged & therefore have reverted to caps & trim rings.  The valve
stem exits the wheels from both types in the same place & so could use
either trim or cap on either wheel.  The early wheelcovers clipped onto
the outside of the rim next to the tire & fall off easily.  Many of them
are very heavy castings & that probably doesn't help.  You don't know
where a 1967 deluxe wheel cover is do you?  I'll look for a '69.


Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

PS.  Those metal stems can be purchased from Olds for about $15 each.

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 15:17:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Another Olds id needed

Dennis W Johnson wrote:
>
> dj...who is Olds crazy, or was that old and crazy!

What's the difference?   ;)

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Mike Wolski <wolskmj@texaco.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:09:17 -0400
Subject: Re: thick-web 403

Hi,

>Is this the elusive solid-web 403 that no one has
>seen? Is Chris Witt still offering a reward for
>evidence of one of these varmints? :)

Yep, it's *definately* a thick-main-web block.  Not
the scalloped, "window-web" later type.  Mine's a 77.
I've never seen any 403 later than 77 with a full main-web.



- --

                                   Regards,

                                 Michael J. Wolski

                             ISSC Strategic UNIX Support
                              Texaco [TNGI] Acct @ THP

                                 wolskmj@texaco.com
                               wolskmj@cyberspace.org

        Email to my pager --->  1974511@skymail.com

           +--- The older I get, the better I was ---+

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 05:13:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Toro identity please

Greg Kalkhoff wrote:
>
> Robert J. Barry wrote:
>

> Hmmmmmmm.....food for thought. But, I would have to venture a guess
and say that you > have DBO wheels on that car! Perhaps because of the
full wheel covers....dunno. In 67, > only the lip if the rim was
different to accomodate the clips of the Deluxe Wheel Cover. > I don't
believe you could get full wheel covers with disk brakes in 67. But,
trim rings > (of the drum brake variety will fit
either....66,67,68,......). Why this was changed > just for 69 would be
odd. > > Count the holes in the rim once for me. This may give us a
clue. > > > This may be more likely be due to the fact that disks were
standard on all Eldos. I know > I have Eldo wheels on one of my Toros.
But they match up with my Chrome DBO Toro wheels, > so there is no
difference between ELDO/TORO DBO wheels. There are subtle differences >
between all wheels within the same style throughout Gen 1 and 2, but
none of which > would/should preclude hubcap/wheelcover attachment
assuming they are correct and > recieving the appropriate wheel
dressing. (ie. a 69 Eldo full wheel cover should fit a > 69 Toro if they
were both DBO or drum respectively) >

>
> Just slap some Chevy Baby Moons on it and be happy!!   o:
>
> Sparky


Sparky,

I counted the holes in my stock '67 drum wheels, the '69 chrome disc
wheels & a chrome drum wheel ('67?).  They all have 10 holes.  Are there
some w/more or less?

The full wheel discs for my '67 are much like the standard 98 covers
except they have a cast center section, the air holes are open instead
of painted fakes, & they clip on the outside of the wheel instead of
snapping inside.  These '67 ones go on either drum or disc brake wheels
equally.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

PS.  I don't want any Chevy baby mooning me in the morning.

------------------------------

From: Clayton Pierce <zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 11:20:29 -0400
Subject: Re: 78 thru 88 cutlass ID (was: Swapping bodyparts)

Just some comments.  I'd forgotten completely about the Brougham/non
Brougham differences in my earlier post.


On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, buehner wrote:

>
> Here are some corrections, I don't quite consider myself an ~expert~
but I > see some slight irregularities here :) > > > >Cutlass
Identification (sounds serious doesn't it?)  :-) > > > >	Tail Light
Differences > > '78-80 taillights  (sort-of) > >    ----- ----- >   |
|     | >   |     |     | >   |    |X|    | >   |     |     | >   |
|     | >    ----- ----- Thanks, I'd forgotten what those years looked
like exactly!




>
> >'81-'83		   '84-'87 ('88 Cutlass Classic)
> > --- ---		            -------
> >|   |   | Center Line	   |       |  -  is a chrome "rocket"
> >|   |   | is a chrome	   |	   | |X| symbol in the center
> >|   |   | strip running         |   -   |  -  of the tail light
> >|   |   | the length of         |  |X|  |
> >|   |   | the tail light        |   -   |
> >|   |   |		  	   |	   |
> >|   |   |		 	   |       |
> > --- ---		 	    -------
> >
> >
> >Grills
>
> > '81 Brougham only
> > -------------------
> >|---|---|---|---|---|  	widely spaced rectangular
> >|---|---|---|---|---|	criss-cross pattern
> >|---|---|---|---|---|	the chrome strips
> >|---|---|---|---|---|	were thick		
> >|---|---|---|---|---|		
> >|---|---|---|---|---|		
> > -------------------
And Calais, this is what I was using for the example, my '81 Calais.




> '81
>    -------------------
>   |||||||||||||||||||||  Long, thin vertical strips.
>   |||||||||||||||||||||  '86 was identical, but taillights
>   |||||||||||||||||||||  had changed.
>   |||||||||||||||||||||
>   |||||||||||||||||||||
>   |||||||||||||||||||||
>    -------------------
> '82
>    -------------------
>   |||||||||| ||||||||||  Very similar, but with 2 distinct
>   |||||||||| ||||||||||  sections per grille.  Can't recall
>   |||||||||| ||||||||||  difference for brougham.  I think they
>   |||||||||| ||||||||||  kept the same variations as '81, but
>   |||||||||| ||||||||||  just seperated them into halves
>   |||||||||| ||||||||||
>    -------------------
>
> > '83 Brougham
> > -------------------
> >|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-| 3/4" Squares across entire grille.
> >|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-| Once again, uncertain of non-brougham
> >|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-| variance.
> >|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
> >|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
> >|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
> > -------------------
Non-Brougham is exactly like I said they were (horizontal lines) in my
earlier post, my friend has one of these.



> >
> >'84
> > -------------------
> >| | | | | | | | | | | Fairly thick and wide spaced
> >| | | | | | | | | | | vertical chrome strips.  I think they
> >| | | | | | | | | | | had a smaller vert. bar in between the
> >| | | | | | | | | | | bolder ones.  Can't recall offhand, and
> >| | | | | | | | | | | really unsure of brougham differences
> >| | | | | | | | | | |
> > -------------------
Nope, they didn't have the vert bar, at least on my non-Brougham



> >
> >'85
>    ------------------
>   |||||| |||||| ||||||  The '85's were seperated into three
>   |||||| |||||| ||||||  distinct sections (per grille)  They are
>   |||||| |||||| ||||||  really easy to spot, and are seperated
>   |||||| |||||| ||||||  similarly to the '82.
>   |||||| |||||| ||||||
>   |||||| |||||| ||||||
>    ------------------
>
Okay, I wasn't sure about that one.


>  '86 (Brougham uncertain...)
>    -------------------
>   |||||||||||||||||||||  Long, thin vertical strips.
>   |||||||||||||||||||||  As said before, identical to '81,
>   |||||||||||||||||||||  except for taillights...
>   |||||||||||||||||||||
>   |||||||||||||||||||||
>   |||||||||||||||||||||
>    -------------------
>
> >
> >'87 ('88 Cutlass Supreme Classic only)  (for sure)
> > -------------------
> >|||||||||||||||||||||  Narrow and closely spaced vert. bars.
> >|||||||||||||||||||||  Flat panels, they did not curve foreward
> >|||||||||||||||||||||  with the header panel.  Also had the
> >|||||||||||||||||||||  composite headlamps.
> >|||||||||||||||||||||  The header panel was also changed
> > -------------------   to a more streamlined design this year.
I didn't like the composite headlights, but I did like the grill.  It
gave the car a more "new" look in my opinion.  Of course, opinions are
like *you-know-what's* everybody's got one.


>
> Actually, I didn't like the way the grilles were flattened in '87.  I
liked > the composite headlights, and the corner marker lights, but the
gap in front > of the grilles looked really out of place. > > Going
backward, the '80 is very easy, because it's the older body style ('78 >
-80) and has four headlights with a flat nose and exposed bumper.  These >
cannot be confused with the '81 and newer body styles, which have the >
"curved" front nose with a half coverred bumper.  The '78-80 have the
more > squared taillights, as opposed to the vertical style adopted in
'81, and > have the flared quarter panels, and the quarter glass right
behind the door > glass.  The '81 up has the three inch pillar between
door glass and quarter > glass. Exactly

>
> The grilles on the '78 and '79 were unique to each, in that the '78
had > three distinct sections (like the '85, only with a flat panel
grill) and the > '79 had two distinct sections per grill (like the '82)
(I think I have > those straight.  I always get those two years
confused...)  The '78 and '79 > had two headlights, where the '80 and
newer all had four.  Incedentally, the > '80's grilles had no sectional
divisions, but came in a variety of styles, > from vert bars to
rectangles, and from flat panels to grilles that wrapped > around the
top of the header panel.  (By flat, I imply that the top of the > grille
continues to the top of the headlight trim, and the others stick > above
it.  Between the Supreme, Brougham, and W-30's, I've seen many >
variances of the '80 grilles.  Regardless, it's still a one-of-a-kind
front > end, due to the flat nose and four headlights. > > > >> <<
80's Cutlass' and 80's Regal's doors were interchangeable. > >
Really?  I can't say 100%, but it sure seems to me that the body lines >
were different.  In front of the mirror where the upper line curves
upward > to meet the hoodline?  I didn't think Buick did that.  I'll
check on the > next one I see and get back on this subject. I said that
accoding to a book that I saw, I'll try and find out the name of the
book.  It said that Cutlass' and Regal's doors WERE interchangeable,
but the Grand Prix and Monte Carlos were not (obviously). I must admit,
that I haven't measured, but the Regal/Cutlass look very close.


>
>       Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
>       500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
>       Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
>       Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
>       "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
>       "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
>              (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:40:42 -0400
Subject: ADMIN: Looks Like We're Alive Again

Well, I just got some non-list email so it looks like CCN has come back
to life. Hope to see some of those ---> Olds-related posts <---  :) real
 soon now!

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia,
Canada

------------------------------

From: Fernando Proietto <proietto@dow.on.doe.ca>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:37:53 -0400
Subject: Re: LIFTER PRE-LOAD - long sorry

Jeff,
	I have brand new push rods still in the GM packaging but since I found
out about the clearance problem due to Mondello's cam I don't think
installing new pushrods will help. The rest of the valve train is new
(rockers, bridge...) I found out that adjustable pushrods may help but
that Mondello is the only one that sells them

Jeff Stanish wrote:
>
> Well after having my '69 H/O engine/heads rebuilt  even with a good
> machinist. I must admit I really don't like the OLDS design in the
first > place.  Biggest grip is NO adjustment!!!! Even those cheapo
chevys have > rocker arm adjustment.  I had a retainer to stock rocker
clearance > problem, so I sprung for Mondellos adjusdtable Roller
Rockers yeah $4 > Bills but they solved the clearance problem,ajustment,
and ROLLERs as an > added bonus.  I never measured it but a freind whos
built about thirty > 455s claims I'll pick up 20Hp.  He also claims to
have measured them and > the tolerances of the stock rockers leave
something to be desired.  I'll > have to say I'm a believer no too. If
you've sprung $$$$ for NOS heads spend > the bucks for new pushrods and
rockers. >

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 15:58:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Cylinder Heads Interchange

At 03:47 PM 12/2/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Cylinder Heads - Oldsmobile

Just a note to say thanks for the info and taking the time to type it
all up!  I love it!  Keep it coming!

- --
Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS
dpauliso@gate.net

------------------------------

From: Mike Wolski <wolskmj@texaco.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:06:22 -0400
Subject: "5" Heads

Hi,

Can anyone tell me the origin of small-block heads
marked "5"?  Thanks!
- --

                                   Regards,

                                 Michael J. Wolski

                             ISSC Strategic UNIX Support
                              Texaco [TNGI] Acct @ THP

                                 wolskmj@texaco.com
                               wolskmj@cyberspace.org

        Email to my pager --->  1974511@skymail.com

           +--- The older I get, the better I was ---+

------------------------------

From: Kurt Heinrich <old442@erols.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 11:13:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Heads.... which is better... #5's, or #7's?

Robert J. Barry wrote:
>
> The 1971 350's used #7 heads, without hardened exhaust valve seats;
the 1971 > 455's used "G" heads, without hardened exhaust valve seats
(except perhaps > in W-30 applications; I'm unclear on this one). > >
The 1972 350's used the same castings as the previous years; the only >
difference was that the exhaust valve seats were hardened (induction >
hardened, as opposed to pressed-in seats) to deal with the newfangled >
unleaded gasoline. Likewise, the 1972 455's used the same "G" castings,
with > induction-hardened exhaust valve seats. > Everything I have
indicates that 71 is the first year of hardened valve seats.  The comp
ratio went from 10.5:1 in 70 to 8.5:1 in 71 (at least for the 442) to
deal with the unleaded gas which GM mandated to all divisions.  And part
of this "dealing with unleaded gas" included hardened valve seats, at
least that's what I've been told and read in numerous places.  If you
have information to the contrary, please let me know.

Kurt
71 442

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 18:09:45 -0400
Subject: Re: TH350 > TH400 swap

>>What changes have to be made to my Olds to put a BOP TH400 short tail
shaft >>tranny in place of my TH350? >>Dave Paulison
1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme >>Melbourne, Florida             1993
Mitsubishi Eclipse GS >>dpauliso@gate.net

>What's it going in?

I was thinking of putting it in the Eclipse, but then decided it would
be better to put it in my Olds.  Probably fit with less hassle, and
besides, the Eclipse is front wheel drive...  ;)

Thanks for the info folks...now I know what has to be done!
- --
Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS
dpauliso@gate.net

------------------------------

From: r_mullen@Merck.Com (R Mullen)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 18:29:00 -0400
Subject: Grade 8 nuts/ Taboo topic

Rich Inacker wrote:
>Some of the nuts I have bought have 6 little slits cut into the side of
>the nut, on the face that would contact the washer or the bolt head.
>Does this mean these nuts are grade 8?

>No, I don't believe it does. Those could be some type of manufacturer's
>identification marks.

>Rich

Rich,
Somebody answered this (my) question for me last week.  Yes, the six
little slits do make it a grade 8 nut.  On Stover nuts, there are six
little pimples, one near each corner of the hex-shaped nut, which makes
them grade 8 as well.  By the way, the slits I was referring to are very
small i.e. it is not a castlelated (sp?) nut (cotter-pin-retained
style).  Now stop talking about nuts, lest we offend someone whose
engineering interests stop at decoding their VIN tag.
Scott Mullen
'70 442

Sample question for the new Olds page:

My 442 is gold.  What color is yours?

------------------------------

From: grpruett@vt.edu (Greg Pruett)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 08:58:52 -0400
Subject: Steering wheel puller

I looked over some of the posts concerning pulling stering wheels and I
thought i'd share my method.  Sorry if someone has allready posted this
method, I haven't been checking mail for 10 days since I was on break.

I had an old steering wheel from a `77 chevelle(4-door, no motor/trans,
anyone need cheap parts?) that was removed via 24 oz hammer.  The little
holes on either side of the center hole were the same size and location
as the holes in the steering wheel on my Vista-Cruiser.  I went to the
local hardware store and bought two four inch long 3/8" (?) diameter
bolts for less than two bucks.  I ran them through the chevelle wheel
and into the V-C wheel.  I scrounged a half-inch or so bolt and nut and
a washer from the garage.  I ran the 1/2" bolt (it was maybe 4" long)
through the center of the chevelle wheel  and threaded the nut and
washer on so that when the bolt was tightened it pushed against the
steering shaft.   I had a penny between the 1/2" bolt and the shaft so
the shaft wouldn't get messed up.

It looked kinda funny having one steering wheel bolted on top of another
but it worked great and was much cheaper than a $17 puller from the
local parts store.  Something to look into if you have an extra steering
wheel lying around somewhere.

Greg Pruett
`72 Vista-Cruiser

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:49:48 -0400
Subject: Re: OLDSMOBILE SUGGESTION BOX

>With screwdriver set in hand, and most all day to work on it,  I
started to >dismantle the G** D**ed dash board, inorder to install the
new bulbs. >Eventually I got to where I could replace two of them.  When
your 6'4" and >245# you don't do well with under dash work, so at that
point I quit.

Is this the rear-wheel-drive 88? Most of the bulbs on that car service
from the front; you shouldn't need to go under the dash. Somewhere
around here I have a memo on how to open up the speedo as I remembered
it on Dad's '78 88, which I think is pretty similar to the RWD '84 88.
(Let me know when I start abbreviating too much. :-)

>Suggestion No. 1:  Put all of the under dash illumination on fibre
optic. >Put one, substantial bulb under there to drive the fibre optics,
and light >the damned thing up.

I believe what you're referring to is called a Light Engine. I think
it's been considered but have no idea where the idea went. The
technology exists but it looks like it's not workable for cars just yet.

>Make that ONE bulb accessable.  Have the fibre laid in
>where necessary; and if they still have any clever engineers left; many
of >the light traces could be cast into the housings.

Edge lighting leads to some pretty neat effects, too. A lot of PRNDL
consoles use this.

>My 1968 Corvette had
>fibre optic outside illumination tell-tales brought right into the
shift >console.  It was very handy, and actually worked.

I suspect fibre-optic is not cheap, plus it doesn't exactly pump out the
light like a well-placed incandescent bulb. Although if you want to see
a clever design using one bulb and a fibre-optic lead, open up the
console on a '73-'77 Cutlass and check out how the shift quadrant is
lit: a flood of green-tinted light and a little white fibre-optic
spotlight to show what gear you're in. Clever.

>        Also, you would have a grateful buying public; at least anyone
>that has tried to replace those bulbs.

I'm afraid the buying public is blissfully unaware of this kind of
stuff and could not possibly care less. I don't disagree with you,
you understand.

>Suggestion No. 2:  Make some part of the dash easily removable; and put
the >bulbs right there in front where they can be reached; from above.

Well, they did, sort of. Let me try and dig out my notes on that...

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 18:01:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Heads.... which is better... #5's, or #7's?

>It seems that both Mondello and Dick Miller swear that you
>have to put hardened seats in to run unleaded gas...

>Has anybody had any problems running earlier heads and unleaded gas
without >hardened seats?

No, I have the original 350 in my Cutlass with #5 heads and have no
problems with running 92 or 93 octane gas.  If I use anything lower it
pings like crazy, but not with the higher octane.  Last time I pulled
the heads off (about two years ago) there was no valve seat recession.
At that time, it had been running on regular unleaded, high octane for
ten years or more.  It doesn't burn oil, either. - -- Dave Paulison
1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Melbourne, Florida             1993
Mitsubishi Eclipse GS dpauliso@gate.net

------------------------------

From: Clayton Pierce <zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:07:24 -0400
Subject: Identifying Cutlasses

Here is a clearer version of what me and C. Buehner have come up with.
Feel free to correct or add to this, and also, are the 442/HO's the same
 as the Broughams/Calais?  I had forgotten about the differences
between the Broughams and the non-Broughams when in my message Wed.  I
assume that the Salon models ARE the same as the Calais models.  What
are the pre-81 grills by year?  Locally, they call these split grills
"beaver teeth".



78-80 Tail lights	81-83 Tail Lights	84-88 Tail Lights
 ----- -----		 --- ---	 	 -------
|     |     |		|   |   |		|       |
|     |     |		|   |   |		|	|
|    |X|    |		|   |   |		|   -	|
|     |     |		|   |   |		|  |X|	|
|     |     |		|   |   |		|   -	|
 ----- -----		|   |   |		|	|
			|   |   |		|	|
			 --- ---		 -------
	-
Where  |X| is a chrome rocket sybol
	-


BROUGHAM (AND CALAIS?)			NON-BROUGHAM

81
 -------------------			 -------------------
|---|---|---|---|---|			|||||||||||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|			|||||||||||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|			|||||||||||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|			|||||||||||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|			|||||||||||||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|			|||||||||||||||||||||
 -------------------			 -------------------


82
					 -------------------
					|||||||||| ||||||||||
					|||||||||| ||||||||||
	?				|||||||||| ||||||||||
				    	|||||||||| ||||||||||
					|||||||||| ||||||||||
					|||||||||| ||||||||||
					 -------------------


83
 -------------------			 -------------------
|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|			|-------------------|
|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|			|-------------------|
|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|			|-------------------|
|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|			|-------------------|
|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|			|-------------------|
|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|			|-------------------|
 -------------------			 -------------------


84
					 -------------------
					| | | | | | | | | | |
					| | | | | | | | | | |
	?				| | | | | | | | | | |
					| | | | | | | | | | |
					| | | | | | | | | | |
					| | | | | | | | | | |
					 -------------------	


85
					 -------------------
					|||||| ||||||| ||||||
					|||||| ||||||| ||||||
	?				|||||| ||||||| ||||||
					|||||| ||||||| ||||||
					|||||| ||||||| ||||||
					|||||| ||||||| ||||||
					 -------------------


86
 -------------------
|||||||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||||||				?
|||||||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||||||
 -------------------



87
 -------------------			 -------------------
|||||||||||||||||||||			|||||||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||||||			|||||||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||||||			|||||||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||||||			|||||||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||||||			|||||||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||||||			|||||||||||||||||||||
 -------------------			 -------------------


88 (CUTLASS SUPREME CLASSIC ONLY)
 -------------------
|||||||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||||||||
 -------------------



Peace, Goodwill, and Happy Oldsmobilling,
Clayton Pierce
zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu

much information provided by
Charley Buehner
buehner@cis.nmclites.edu

------------------------------

From: Chris Urban <urbanch@magi.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:44:22 -0400
Subject: RE: PST suspension bushings

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>Just thought I'd add my 2 cents. I bought the PST front end kit about 5
= years ago and about 1.5 years later ( at different times) both lower =
ball joints broke. This was an unusual thing to have happen so I made =
sure I showed these ball joints to several reputable people and they all
= said that it appeared to be a weak joint. I contacted PST and
explained = what had happened and they refunded me the money for the
entire kit. = They were very apologetic and tried to help as much as
possible. One of = these ball joints let go at about 30mph and ripped
the bottom of the = front fender off, the other was in a parking lot at
about 1mph and did = no damage to the rest of the car. Needless to say
either of these = failures could have been lethal at speed. - ------
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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBE073.A71BD2E0--

------------------------------

From: Aaron Neumann <neumann.12@osu.edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 18:37:48 -0400
Subject: More FYI on motor mounts

Cliff, to answer your questions you posted early about motor mounts, I
finally had a chance to talk with one of our compounders here at
Goodyear.

Natural rubber is the most extensively used material for mounts.  As you
know, it deteriorates in oil in fuel.  Additives can only marginally
help it's resistivity to absorbtion and do not affect the molecular
structure to this end. Despite this, very few problems have occured do
to the deterioration of mounts due to gas and oil.  I suppose that most
mounts are never exposed to enough oil or fuel to significantly hinder
them (which would especially be the case in newer cars).

There have been instances where neoprene has been used.  The
transmission mount on the Chevette had a fluid problem that was
supposidly solved by a neoprene mount.  While neoprene can't match the
characteristics of natural rubber, it comes quite close.  So why isn't
it used more widely?  Cost.


 _____
|  |  |* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
|  |  | Aaron Neumann St. Marys, OH  *
|  |  | neumann.12@osu.edu           *
| /|\ | 72 Delta 88 Royale Conv.     *
|/_|_\|* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *	

------------------------------

From: Aaron Neumann <neumann.12@osu.edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 18:37:45 -0400
Subject: ROC 11 cam identification?

Checked out that 455 for my swap this weekend.  It has a "mystery" cam
in it.  The only clue to it's identity is a hastily written "ROC 11" on
the rebuild receipt.  Does that ring any bells with anyone?

Thanks,

Aaron

 _____
|  |  |* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
|  |  | Aaron Neumann St. Marys, OH  *
|  |  | neumann.12@osu.edu           *
| /|\ | 72 Delta 88 Royale Conv.     *
|/_|_\|* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *	

------------------------------

From: Greg Kalkhoff <gkalkhof@execpc.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:38:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Toro identity please

Lloyd Culp wrote:

> I beleve that the disc brake wheel became the standard by about '69 or
> so.  My '67 is drum braked, but I have repaced the original wheels
> w/disc brake chrome ones from a '69.  They fit just fine.

Bill,

Interchangability of wheels has never been a problem. You can put a set
of 1978 rims on a 66 and visa versa with no problemo! In fact, you can
mix and match ANY wheel within the first 2 Generations ad nauseum
without problems. The stickler is how/if the wheel dressings fit. That
becomes a bit of a puzzle.

> You don't know where a 1967 deluxe wheel cover is do you?

I have about 8 of them, and another 4 that are NOS still unassembeled in
the original unopened GM boxes! I may depart with the "not so good"
ones if you are interested.

Sparky

- --
Greg Kalkhoff                                        See the Sparkmobile
Toronado FAQ Administrator
http://www.442.com/kalkhoff.html
http://www.execpc.com/~gkalkhof/torofaqs.htm AKA "Sparky"

------------------------------

From: Clayton Pierce <zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:43:21 -0400
Subject: Re: TH350 > TH400 swap

You could always convert the Eclipse over to a Toro 455 ;-)

Clayton Pierce,
zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu

On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Dave Paulison wrote:

> >>What changes have to be made to my Olds to put a BOP TH400 short
tail shaft > >>tranny in place of my TH350? > >>Dave Paulison
1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme > >>Melbourne, Florida
1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS > >>dpauliso@gate.net > > >What's it going
in? > > I was thinking of putting it in the Eclipse, but then decided
it would be > better to put it in my Olds.  Probably fit with less
hassle, and besides, > the Eclipse is front wheel drive...  ;) > >
Thanks for the info folks...now I know what has to be done! > -- > Dave
Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme > Melbourne,
Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS > dpauliso@gate.net > > >


------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 18:41:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Another Olds id needed

>One is a 65, I believe, dark
>blue, with two tail lights in the bumper with mirror image
>tail lights above it in the fender.

I believe that is a '67...anybody else venture a guess??
- --
Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS
dpauliso@gate.net

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 18:37:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Light Switch Blue 'LED'

>The bulb fits
>into a plastic assembly below the left front speaker and has
>a fiber optic cable running to the blue lens next to the light
>switch.  I haven't been able to keep a bulb working for more
>than a year in my '87 442.

What number of bulb are you installing? If a 194, try a 168, and
vice-versa. (Theory is that one of those burns a bit cooler than
the other but I can't remember which is which. :-)

This sounds like the same kind of bulb capsule used to illuminate
the legend on the rear defogger switch on my '82 via a short length
of fibre-optic, and that thing never burned out on mine...

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 18:56:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Heads.... which are better... #5's, or #7's?

At 11:25 AM 12/2/96 -0400, you wrote:
>I'm using #5 heads on my '72 442 350. I too heard the flow better
>rumour. I havn't used the car much since the rebuild so I really can't
>tell wether any problems have arisen. Although, with this rebuild I did
>not do anything to the heads, they were bone stock. The only thing I
did >was I block off the heat riser with those cast alumiunun block you
can >get from mondello, they have to be ground to fit though, big job..
>Anyway I will taking the heads off this winter in order to rebuild them
>and I will report on they appearance then. > >BTW way how do you find
out what size valves you have/need withthe head >off, do you measure the
outside diameter of the valve of the inside >diameter of the opening? >
>Fernando >'72 442 > You measure the maximum dia. of the head for
diameter, and from the bottom flat of the head to the top flat of the
stem for length.

Olds used two different intake valves and four different exhaust valves
in their 350 (option R) gasoline engine.


Int: 1.875"              Exh. 1.562"  '68-71 w/o outside air ind.

Int: 1.995"              Exh. 1.624"  '68-71 w/outside air ind.

Int: 1.875"              Exh. 1.622"  '72 all (4.740" long int, 4.708"
long exh.)*

Int: 1.875"              Exh. 1.622"  '73-76 all (4.667" long int.,
4.675 long exh.)*

Int. 1.875"              Exh. 1.502"  '77-80 all

The 350 Diesel used Int. 1.875", Exh. 1.622" in all applications.

* This might represent the change over to hardened valves! As it would
be timely for that change. The Wiz

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 18:58:23 -0400
Subject: Re: oldsmobile-digest V1 #386

At 12:08 PM 12/2/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>The Wiz mentioned about the quality from Mother GM. I will be
>>the first one to admit GM's quality during the mid 80's left
>>a lot to be desired.  We have improved greatly, [...]
>>
>>---------------------------
>>|                         |
>>|     ##     ###     ###  |
>>|   #    #   #  #   #  #  |
>>|  #         #   # #   #  |
>>|  #   ####  #    #    #  |
>>|   #    #   #         #  |
>>|     ##     #         #  |
>>|                         |
>>|  The Mark of Exellence  |
>>---------------------------
>                ^^^^^^^^^
>Oh, please tell me you're trolling...  :-)
>
>Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
>Datalogics, Inc.
>101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
>Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282
>
>
They've only got one way they can go, and that's up.

The Wiz

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:00:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Alsetta/Isetta

At 01:13 PM 12/2/96 -0400, you wrote:
>> > The only automobile I can recall named "Isetta" came from BMW and
>> > was barely larger than a refrigerator (and just one
refrigerator-style >> > door in the front). > >> No, Sir;  that is
exactly the RIGHT Isetta.  They dropped an Allison in (or >> maybe on) I
don't remember many details after 25 years, and called it the >>
Alsetta. > >Oh my gawd!  I can't believe that.  How on earth could you
possibly >fit that engine in that car??? Maybe with a SEVERE body
stretch. >Then you'd still have to fabricate some kind of trans... the
tires >would likely break free when you put an egg on the gas pedal...
>the aerodynamics of the car were such that I can't imagine it being
>stable at any kind of speed... After I'm finished with this semester
>I'm going to see if I can find more info on this.  Got any leads? > >-
Travis and the 69 olds 98 convertible aka "Tiny" >-- >Travis McWaters
Transmission Products Division >tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com
DSC Communications Corporation > > One of the earlier posts on this car
indicated that it still exhists in the Don Garlits museum, I believe in
Florida.

The Wiz

------------------------------

From: OLDSPWR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:06:44 -0400
Subject: Re: TH350 > TH400 swap

To replace a 350 with a 400, there are a few things that need to be
done: 1.  the driveshaft will have to shortened, approx. 1" 2.  the yoke
for the 400 is larger than the 350's, so a 400 yoke will have to be
aquired
     This should mate to the original universals.
3.  the crossmember will have to moved rearward on the frame.  On older
cars there
     are usually a number of holes located on the frame for various
transmissions.

The cooler lines will connect in the same locations, and the original
shifter should bolt right.  350's and 400's have the same amount of
distance between shifts.

Hope this helps...
Tom Millard OLDSPWR@aol.com
79 Cutlass -> Street/Strip/Show
86 442 -> Summer Driver
79 Cutlass -> Winter Bomb

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:03:27 -0400
Subject: Re: upsidedown engines?

At 01:15 PM 12/2/96 -0400, you wrote:
>> ... I'd say that the motor would "have to" be EFI though.
>> Upside down carburretor would not be good!
>
>They do make "updraft" carbs.  I don't know if Olds ever used
>them but I ran into a Buick slant-6 in a boat that had one.
>I think the engine in question was a mid 50's design.
>
>
>- Travis and the 69 olds 98 convertible aka "Tiny"
>--
>Travis McWaters                           Transmission Products
Division >tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com               DSC Communications
Corporation > > Oils inline engines, 1930 and earlier, use updraught
carbs.

The Wiz

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:14:49 -0400
Subject: Re: "5" Heads

>Can anyone tell me the origin of small-block heads
>marked "5"?  Thanks!

They're from a '68-'69 Olds 350.  Good flowing heads, high compression,
but no hardened valve seats.

- --
Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS
dpauliso@gate.net

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:38:04 -0400
Subject: Update and babble!  Was:  78 thru 88 cutlass ID

>>
>> > '83 Brougham
>> > -------------------
>> >|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-| 3/4" Squares across entire grille.
>> >|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-| Once again, uncertain of non-brougham
>> >|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-| variance.
>> >|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
>> >|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
>> >|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|
>> > -------------------
>Non-Brougham is exactly like I said they were (horizontal lines) in my
>earlier post, my friend has one of these.

Found some really great advertising clip-arts for the '83 model years.
Some really great Cutlass shots.  They show the Supreme, Calais, and
Brougham all with the same grille, but I know that's not right.  My
Brougham is identical to the above pic, but I can't recall the others
I've seen.  I'll have to post this stuff on my web page someday.  The
old Chilton manuals were excellent for these grille ID's.  My 80-88 got
stolen, but I think I've still got some older ones around here
somewhere.

I found cliparts of the Regal, too, and the doors look slightly
different, but they may actually work.  It looks like the raised portion
in front of the mirror is shorter on the Regal, but it could be camera
angles, too. Either way, it might actually work.  I'll have to check
into that, cuz my doors are shot!  IF that's really the case, we could
have all kinds of fun with these car ID's.  That would mean we could
stitch an Olds front clip on a Regal, (or vice-versa, if you're that
perverse...)  Just a dimented thought.  They body line between the
fender and door looks ~really~ similar between the Cutlass Coupe and the
Custom Cruiser.  Can't tell about the Cutlass Cruiser.  Delta looks
similar too.  Is the Delta wider than the Cutlass?  I've ~always~ been
curious about grafting the Cutlass Coupe front clip on a Delta or a
Wagon.  Just to say I did it!  Anyone ever heard of this???

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:38:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Steering wheel puller

>It looked kinda funny having one steering wheel bolted on top of
another but

Careful, you might start a trend here.  I'm sure someone in the past
used a chain to "whip" the wheel off (It works as a slide hammar for
axles, I hear...)  Unfortunately, someone saw it at just the right time,
and we ended up with the chain steering wheels...  I guess some people
have trouble finding the telescopic wheels, or their seat wont go
foreward...  Oh man, am I digging deep here!  :)

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:18:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Heads.... which is better... #5's, or #7's?

>It seems that both Mondello and Dick Miller swear that you
>have to put hardened seats in to run unleaded gas...

>Has anybody had any problems running earlier heads and unleaded gas
without >hardened seats?

No, I have the original 350 in my Cutlass with #5 heads and have no
problems with running 92 or 93 octane gas.  If I use anything lower it
pings like crazy, but not with the higher octane.  Last time I pulled
the heads off (about two years ago) there was no valve seat recession.
At that time, it had been running on regular unleaded, high octane for
ten years or more.  It doesn't burn oil, either. - -- Dave Paulison
1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Melbourne, Florida             1993
Mitsubishi Eclipse GS dpauliso@gate.net

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:49:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Light Switch Blue 'LED'

>This sounds like the same kind of bulb capsule used to illuminate
>the legend on the rear defogger switch on my '82 via a short length
>of fibre-optic, and that thing never burned out on mine...

Yeah, I think they used this stuff alot, although I think it was less
efficient than the backlit versions.  The Gran Prix used the light
capsule and fiber-optic for the console shifter, and ~almost~ all GM
heater controls use the side mounted light and engraved plex cover as a
sort-of fiber optic affect.  They work rather well, but they aren't as
bright.  They sure do make neat affects, tho.

     I found a tell-tale cluster a while back on a little Toyota, or
some similar import.  Yeah, I think it was a Celica.  Anyway, All of the
warning signs were small red LED-imitators.  They looked like a LED
display matrix, at least.  The "low battery" etc. indicators were all
spelled out in a dot matrix format, and looked really neat.  The
suprising part was that it was ~all~ a light transmission setup.  One
light bulb in the back lit up the entire message, and most of the
messages were intermixed with each other. It doesn't make much sense
here, but it was ~really~ cool how it worked.
     --The Olds content here involves my intentions of putting it in the
Rockit someday...!  :)

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: "Chris R. Smetana" <Chris_R._Smetana@DADC.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:32:14 -0400
Subject: Paddock was Re: engine detailing

Also, where is a good(relatively inexpensive) supply company
for Olds' parts?  We currently have a Paddock Catalog($$$)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A fellow member of the Indy GTO association told me Paddock buys 80% of
their parts from Year One.  I assume this is for all of their lines,
not just GTO, although I don't know. FWIW, his GTO is also Paddock's
'97 GTO catalog cover car and if I remember right he also told me the
picture has someone in the background wearing a Pontiac Enthusiast
magazine jacket.  Oopps!

Chris Smetana
Terre Haute, IN
1969 Cutlass W-31
2 1966 GTO's - one is a parts car
1971 Skylark custom convertible - for sale
1989 Mustang 5.0 LX Hatchback

------------------------------

From: Dennis Johnson <dwjohnso@sunbird.usd.edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:03:00 -0400
Subject: RE: Another Olds id needed

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- ----------
From: 	Mike Frederick[SMTP:edison3@cpeq.com]
Sent: 	Monday, December 02, 1996 1:17 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: 	Re: Another Olds id needed

Dennis W Johnson wrote:
>
> dj...who is Olds crazy, or was that old and crazy!

What's the difference?   ;)

The 66 Toro and Mike

Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

Two things.  1: the color of my beard.  2: um...well, lets talk about
Oldsmobiles, ok!
dj


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------------------------------

From: Steve Ochs <76057.1404@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 11:23:09 -0400
Subject: GM Quality

I agree, the durability of GM RWD vehicles in the mid 80's was very
good.  The issue I made was of GM quality.  The RWD vehicles are durable
especially mechanical because they use old technology.  That old
technology is also why there are some quality problems. Look at any
1980's G-body that has spent its life in the rust belt and not been
meticulously taken care of. The bottom of the doors and the bottom of
the trunk lid will be rotted out. That is because GM did not use good
galvanized steel, any primer, or any
 ELPO on these vehicles.  The insides of the body panels are BARE sheet
metal. My 1987 442 started showing heavy rust underneath the
weatherstripping along the bottom of the doors the first year that I had
it.  When I removed the weatherstripping, there was bare sheet metal
underneath it.  The paint ended just before the weatherstripping.  The
moisture that stayed underneath the weatherstripping immediately started
rust.  When I removed the door panels, the whole inside of the outer
door panels was covered by surface rust. Note thatI take meticulous care
of this vehicle, and even though it is 10 years old and has 60,000 miles
on it, it is all original and has won awards at car shows for its
cleanliness.  It has taken a lot of work to keep it that way.
     Also note the non-working passenger remote mirrors, power antenna
problems, speedometer cables, poor paint finishes (especially black -
see any GN), rusty wheels (look at the gold area near lug nuts on 442
wheels), and other fit and finish problems.
     Don't get me wrong. I love my 442.  I think that the 1981 to 1988
G-bodies are the best looking vehicles GM ever made.  Also, all of the
quality problems were fit and finish, body, and trim problems.  The
vehicles are great for mechanical quality as is witnessed by the large
number of these vehicles still on the road.  It is just a little
dissapointing to purchase your 'dream car' new and have rust and paint
problems.  Well, enough of my soapbox.

                              ---------------------------
Steve Ochs  aka  N8TYS        |                         |
Engineer                      |     ##     ###     ###  |
GM Powertrain -               |   #    #   #  #   #  #  |
Transmission Division         |  #         #   # #   #  |
(4T60/65-E)                   |  #   ####  #    #    #  |
                              |   #    #   #         #  |
'87 Olds 442                  |     ##     #         #  |
'87 Grand National            |                         |
'76 Cutlass 'S'               |  The Mark of Exellence  |
                              ---------------------------

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:10:53 -0400
Subject: Re: More FYI on motor mounts

At 06:37 PM 12/2/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Cliff, to answer your questions you posted early about motor mounts, I
>finally had a chance to talk with one of our compounders here at
Goodyear. > >Natural rubber is the most extensively used material for
mounts.  As you >know, it deteriorates in oil in fuel.  Additives can
only marginally help >it's resistivity to absorbtion and do not affect
the molecular structure to >this end. Despite this, very few problems
have occured do to the >deterioration of mounts due to gas and oil.  I
suppose that most mounts are >never exposed to enough oil or fuel to
significantly hinder them (which >would especially be the case in newer
cars). > >There have been instances where neoprene has been used.  The
transmission >mount on the Chevette had a fluid problem that was
supposidly solved by a >neoprene mount.  While neoprene can't match the
characteristics of natural >rubber, it comes quite close.  So why isn't
it used more widely?  Cost. > > > _____ >|  |  |* * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * >|  |  | Aaron Neumann St. Marys, OH  * >|  |  |
neumann.12@osu.edu           * >| /|\ | 72 Delta 88 Royale Conv.     *
>|/_|_\|* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *	 > > Aaron,

Thank you for the note; and it is noted.  It certainly makes sense to
use natrual rubber where it can be used and live.  Especially where cost
is involved.  I became aware of the shortcomings of natural rubber one
day when a delivery man dropped off two brand new 10 x 20 tubes, and
left them in a small pool of gasoline.  In less than one hour there was
a gaping hole in each.  Keep the aeromatics away, and there is no reason
why they shouldn't last a long time.

So obviously, there is a lot less dripping oil that one would assume.

The Wiz

------------------------------

From: Kevin Wong <yu135008@yorku.ca>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:20:39 -0400
Subject: Starter motor question

A friend's '77 Custom Cruiser (350) was exhibiting intermittent slow
cranking.  Checking and cleaning the engine ground and battery terminals
did not improve matters.  The battery was even substituted with a known
good one without any notable difference.  Finally, when my friend was
cranking (or attempting to crank) the engine, I noticed some sparking
originating from around the starter.

It turns out that the solenoid had worked its way loose; the main
contact leading from the solenoid to the motor was grounding on the
casing since the insulating grommet had also worked loose.  I dug up his
Original starter, which was replaced by this rebuilt unit 2 years ago in
a bout of preventative maintenance.  Even after 190,000 miles of use, it
still cranked perfectly, and even sounds a lot better than the rebuilt
one.

Questions: Which starter rebuild kit is recommended?
             (Canadian Tire carries a no-name one, and is of dubious
quality)
           In the case of installing a rebuilt starter, what is the
             best method to shim the starter to achieve quieter
operation?

Thanks,

Kevin Wong

------------------------------

From: IBDEA@aol.com
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:27:26 -0400
Subject: Re: disc brake conversion ('67 442)

I'M looking for some info as to an alternative to the PST conversion
kit.I've heard different spindles and rotors will work from different
models but haven't been able to confirm any of it.Any help you guys lend
will be greatly appreciated.   THANKS


BOB PETERS
67 442

------------------------------

From: Dennis Johnson <dwjohnso@sunbird.usd.edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:29:22 -0400
Subject: RE: Alsetta/Isetta

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- ----------
From: 	tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com[SMTP:tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com]
Sent: 	Monday, December 02, 1996 11:13 AM
To: 	oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: 	Re: Alsetta/Isetta

> > ..."Isetta"...was barely larger than a refrigerator =20

> ...that is exactly the RIGHT Isetta...dropped an Allison in (...on...)
>don't remember many details after 25 years...called...Alsetta.

Oh my gawd!...Got any leads?

Travis McWaters                           Transmission Products Division
tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com               DSC Communications Corporation
=20
You could write to the Don Garlits Drag Racing Museum in Ocala, FL. =20
I could get the address and maybe www site for you (if they have one).
=
 Or perhaps one of the drag racing magazines might have a photo on file.
= =20 I might be able to obtain an address for you...just dunno.
Otherwise, = it =20 is thumb through old magz at the library, if you
could find them.  Car Craft should have a file photo.  dj


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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBE07E.BDF6F480--

------------------------------

From: nathan biggs <nbiggs@mail.vt.edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:32:27 -0400
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Looks Like We're Alive Again

 At 04:40 PM 12/2/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Well, I just got some non-list email so it looks like CCN has come back
 >to life. Hope to see some of those ---> Olds-related posts <---  :)
real >soon now! > >Greg Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada > > > >please take me off this damn thing
my emial is nbiggs@vt.edu.
 please take me off

------------------------------

From: nathan biggs <nbiggs@mail.vt.edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:32:26 -0400
Subject: Re: TH350 > TH400 swap

At 07:06 PM 12/2/96 -0400, you wrote:
>To replace a 350 with a 400, there are a few things that need to be
done: >1.  the driveshaft will have to shortened, approx. 1" >2.  the
yoke for the 400 is larger than the 350's, so a 400 yoke will have to
>be aquired >     This should mate to the original universals. >3.
the crossmember will have to moved rearward on the frame.  On older cars
>there >     are usually a number of holes located on the
frame for various >transmissions. > >The cooler lines will connect in
the same locations, and the original shifter >should bolt right.  350's
and 400's have the same amount of distance between >shifts. > >Hope this
helps... >Tom Millard OLDSPWR@aol.com >79 Cutlass -> Street/Strip/Show
>86 442 -> Summer Driver >79 Cutlass -> Winter Bomb > >Plese take me
off this damnthing

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:36:11 -0400
Subject: Re: GM Quality

At 11:23 AM 11/30/96 -0400, Steve Ochs wrote:

>     Don't get me wrong. I love my 442.  I think that the 1981 to 1988
>G-bodies are the best looking vehicles GM ever made.  Also, all of the
>quality problems were fit and finish, body, and trim problems.  The
>vehicles are great for mechanical quality as is witnessed by the large
>number of these vehicles still on the road.  It is just a little
>dissapointing to purchase your 'dream car' new and have rust and paint
>problems.  Well, enough of my soapbox.

Being in the business of automobile retirement (a.k.a salvage business)
it is a shame to see so many mid 80's G-body cars off the road before
their time just for the fact that they are rotted out so bad. I have
come across more than a few good running G-body cars with halfway nice
interiors that would make excellent fix-er-up cars if it wasn't for the
fact that the rear frame no longer existed on the car.  It is rare to
find a car with decent doors or rear quarters. My 442 is from Arizona
and the doors show that. They are spotless after 16 years. Now my 442
has been in Ohio 3 years and already has alot of frame surface rust. The
previous owner says that the frame was clean when he brought it up here.
Gotta love what midwest weather can do to a G-body! - - - - - - - - - -
- - Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com) or (jlabay@kent.edu) 93
Z/28......Patriot Red, A4, G92(3.23), Lic. Plate: "1FST93Z" 80 4-4-2
W-30 75 Hurst/Olds W-25

------------------------------

From: Dennis W Johnson <dwjohnso@sunbird.usd.edu>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:44:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Alsetta/Isetta

On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, C.R.F. wrote:

> At 01:13 PM 12/2/96 -0400, you wrote:
> >> that is exactly the right Isetta...

> One of the earlier posts on this car indicated that it still
> exhists in the Don Garlits museum, I believe in Florida.
> The Wiz

I believe that was my post and the "Alsetta" is not there.  I
commented that "Big Al", the Allison powered 34 Ford is there
as well as an Allison powered dragster.
And, you know, I recall seeing pics/memorabilia of Linda Vaughn
and the Hurst Hemi Under Glass (rear hemi/64 Barracuda) but do
not recall an Olds in the Museum!
dj

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:40:12 -0400
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Looks Like We're Alive Again

>>please take me off this damn thing my emial is nbiggs@vt.edu.
> please take me off

Why are people who want to get off the list always nasty about it?  And
don't any of them know how to read?  It tells how in the info you get
when you subscribe, if they would only read it!!!

- --
Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS
dpauliso@gate.net

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:49:45 -0400
Subject: Overdrive Attachment Devices

I haven't seen any replies to the fellow asking about OD units. I too
would like to know if anyone has experience, particularly durability.  I
would _much_ rather modify my TH400 than mess with cables and computers
to get OD.

There is an article in a recent car mag.  Don't remember which one but I
copied a page from the story for my "Someday dreams" folder.  They
describe the installation of just such a device into a high horse power
street rod.
 Increased mileage from 7.8 to 12.7.

The vendor of the OD unit is:

Gear Vendors, Inc.
1717 Magnolia Ave.
El Cajon, CA 92020
(800)999-9555

I'll try to call tomorow.  If anyone else is interested I'll post costs,
etc.

"Enjoy the Ride!"

Bob Handren        OCA/OCF# 7728
'67 W-30 Modified     '70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

Handren Associates, Inc.
FDA Medical Device Regulatory Affairs
Laser/Optical Radiation Safety
(407)365-6385

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:43:49 -0400
Subject: Carb rebuild

I am in need of a carb rebuild...in particular, I need to have the
butterfly valve shaft holes drilled and bushed, because they are so worn
that the throttle sticks *all the time*.  Engine stays at about 2500 rpm
or so, until I stomp on the gas pedal once then it goes back down to
normal idle speed. Is there a kit I can get to do this myself?  Or do I
have to send it somewhere, and if so, can anybody recommend a good carb
shop?

Thanks..
- --
Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS
dpauliso@gate.net

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:55:31 -0400
Subject: Re: GM Quality

At 11:23 AM 11/30/96 -0400, you wrote:


Snip>

>I agree, the durability of GM RWD vehicles in the mid 80's was very
>good.  The issue I made was of GM quality.  The RWD vehicles are
durable >especially mechanical because they use old technology.

I agree that there is some differences between durability and the other
QC questions.

Personally I blame it all on Roger Smith.  He has accountants mentality.
The same things occured under R.S.s tenure at GM that occured at
Chrysler in the years following Walter P.s death.  An accountant treats
the customer as the enemy.

Prior to Smith, GM had a run of CEO's that was unmatched anywhere else
in the world ever.  They chose 1st class engineers that understood cost
dynamics and built VG cars.  Maybe they were never perfect, even for
their period of construction, but almost any car that left any GM plant
was as good, if not better, than any car from any other manufacturer at
the same price point.  You got what you paid for.

Snip>

>That is because GM did not use good galvanized steel, any primer, or
any > ELPO on these vehicles.  The insides of the body panels are BARE
sheet metal.

This is either planned obsolesence or just plain stealing from the
customer.

Snip>

>     Also note the non-working passenger remote mirrors, power antenna
>problems, speedometer cables, poor paint finishes (especially black -
see >any GN), rusty wheels (look at the gold area near lug nuts on 442
wheels), >and other fit and finish problems.

I had two cars that had radios that never worked from the day they were
new. I brought this up and some fixes came forth, but the mechanics
never got them to work.  Each car '68 Corvette, and '84 Olds was in
numerous times for repair.  And maybe I should say work properly.  If
you turn the radio on in the Olds it will play for a few minutes every
couple of hours, the Corvette was worse.

Especially black?  Try especially silver.  Have you ever seen a silver
GM car that was more than a day and a half old where the paint still
looked as it should.  It washes off the car at the first rain; and looks
like hell in the first week; and yes they con't do well with black
either.  I wonder how Mercedes-Benz keeps the silver on their cars, and
GM can't.

SniP>

     Don't get me wrong. I love my 442.  I think that the 1981 to 1988
>G-bodies are the best looking vehicles GM ever made.

I agree that they are very attractive cars.  I think that the best
looking sedans ever made by anyone, ever, are the Jaguars of the last
ten or fifteen years.  Jag hasn't made a single car that will work
properly yet; and they've been trying for years.  And you can't blame
their troubles on Lucas either; as they are mechanically poor too.
Maybe Lucas did their mechanical design work too.  It really looks like
Jag spends all of their money on stylists, and zip on mechnicals.  GM
spends theirs on computer companies and telephone concerns.  I just read
that GM was something like the 10th largest telephone company.

Maybe in a few years H. Ross Perot will have another computer company
for sale, and GM can buy it too.

Snip>

Also, all of the
>quality problems were fit and finish, body, and trim problems.  The
>vehicles are great for mechanical quality as is witnessed by the large
>number of these vehicles still on the road.  It is just a little
>dissapointing to purchase your 'dream car' new and have rust and paint
>problems.  Well, enough of my soapbox.

I approve of your soapbox appeal.  I'm a great fan of GM.  I would hate
to see it vanish because no one at the Durant building (14th floor that
is) really knows what they are doing.  And I also agree that much of the
'old technology' vehicles were superb; save for the stupid Chevette
tranmission (TH200) they passed around to everyone.  The TH200 in a B
body is as close to a automotive misfit and boonedoggle that has ever
existed.  While the TH350 was as good as any, and better than most.

Of course we all would like 'to run the place' and have no real concept
of what it is actually like.  If we ran the show they would still be
building 400 to 500 ci engines, and when aided with the kind of
technology that made the LT1 into what it is today, we would have 400+
hp factory cars that got 25+ mpg, and kept the CAFE in line.

The Caprice/Roadmaster would not have ended; and Pontiac and Olds would
have had their version too.


>                              ---------------------------
>Steve Ochs  aka  N8TYS        |                         |
>Engineer                      |     ##     ###     ###  |
>GM Powertrain -               |   #    #   #  #   #  #  |
>Transmission Division         |  #         #   # #   #  |
>(4T60/65-E)                   |  #   ####  #    #    #  |
>                              |   #    #   #         #  |
>'87 Olds 442                  |     ##     #         #  |
>'87 Grand National            |                         |
>'76 Cutlass 'S'               |  The Mark of Exellence  |
>                              ---------------------------
>

And for the addenda,

The Wiz

>
The Wiz

------------------------------

From: KEVIN HOOPINGARNER <khooping@bright.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:01:46 -0400
Subject: Re: 71 W-30 Part "WANTED"!!!

>This is what he needs.
>1. 71-72 dual gate with top plate and trans brackets
>2. Drivers side NOS fender.
>3. Front nos bumper guards
>4. The correct "TO" letter code for a 10 bolt olds rearend with a 3:73
gear. > >Any informantion sent to me will be forwarded to my buddy Bruce
Cotton >immediately. > >Please e-mail to me  W MACHINES@aol.com (MARK
PRINCE) >Thanks to all in advance. >

        Mark,



                Not knowing how far your friend is planning to go with
the restoration, I do have a '71 442 W-30 AT distributor for sale or
trade.  id: 1112034  0G23.  Also, if anyone else can help me, I have
another 442 distributor, 1112033 0M7.  This is from a '70 442 4-speed
car that I had years ago and pulled in favor of a Mallory dual point.
After running the numbers, the distributor id shows as being from a '71
442 but the date code 0 indicates it is from a 70.  To further
complicate the issue, the M which should be the month of manufacture
would be for some month that comes after December??????  Any ideas???



Kevi n Hoopingarner

'70 Olds 442 W-30

Find lay Oh.

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:02:56 -0400
Subject: Re: OLDSMOBILE SUGGESTION BOX

In a message dated 96-12-02 05:17:30 EST, you write:

> Suggestion No. 2:  Make some part of the dash easily removable; and
put the >  bulbs right there in front where they can be reached; from
above.

Hey Wiz,

Having owned quite a few large Oldsmobiles from the '77 to '85 era, I
have experienced first hand your bulb frustration.  Every one of those
damn cars had to have the dash board come apart, more than once, to
replace the instrument bulbs.  But I was always able to do this sitting
in the drivers seat and replacing the bulbs from the front and never had
any problems.  The most difficult part for me was getting the headlight
knob off to remove the dash face.  When changing bulbs it always helped
me to have the tranny in Lo (parking brake applied naturally) and the
tilt wheel in the upper position for removing the screws and in the
lower position for removing the panel.
 Give it a try, after a while you can do it with your eyes closed.

Paul

------------------------------

From: "Chris Urban" <urbanch@magi.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:07:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Heads....Hardened seats

Heads without hard seats will go about 60,000 miles on unleaded gas. The
only time you absolutely need hard seats are on an engine that is not
going to be apart for a longer duration than that. All these shops that
insist on hard seats do so because they sell/install them. There is a
pile of stuff Mondello would have you do that isn't neccesary.

Chris Urban
69 442
72 HO

- ----------
> From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
> To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
> Subject: Re: Heads.... which is better... #5's, or #7's?
> Date: Monday, December 02, 1996 5:01 PM
>
> >It seems that both Mondello and Dick Miller swear that you
> >have to put hardened seats in to run unleaded gas...
>
> >Has anybody had any problems running earlier heads and unleaded gas
without
> >hardened seats?
>
> No, I have the original 350 in my Cutlass with #5 heads and have no
problems
> with running 92 or 93 octane gas.  If I use anything lower it pings
like > crazy, but not with the higher octane.  Last time I pulled the
heads off > (about two years ago) there was no valve seat recession.  At
that time, it > had been running on regular unleaded, high octane for
ten years or more. It > doesn't burn oil, either. > -- > Dave Paulison
1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme > Melbourne, Florida             1993
Mitsubishi Eclipse GS > dpauliso@gate.net > >

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:12:09 -0400
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Looks Like We're Alive Again

At 08:40 PM 12/2/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>>please take me off this damn thing my emial is nbiggs@vt.edu.
>> please take me off
>
>Why are people who want to get off the list always nasty about it?  And
>don't any of them know how to read?  It tells how in the info you get
when >you subscribe, if they would only read it!!! > >-- >Dave Paulison
1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme >Melbourne, Florida             1993
Mitsubishi Eclipse GS >dpauliso@gate.net > > > It's quite likely that
someone that was installed here as a joke, and only checks his mail
every two or three days, and in that time can gather 500 responses might
be put off a little, especially since they prefer to prance around town
in some jap scrap or other powered rollerskate, in lieu of a real car.

I've a better question, why not take them off?

It's likely that their reading comprehension leaves something to be
desired also.

Why is it so difficult?

The Wiz

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:16:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Carb rebuild

At 08:43 PM 12/2/96 -0400, you wrote:
>I am in need of a carb rebuild...in particular, I need to have the
butterfly >valve shaft holes drilled and bushed, because they are so
worn that the >throttle sticks *all the time*.  Engine stays at about
2500 rpm or so, until >I stomp on the gas pedal once then it goes back
down to normal idle speed. >Is there a kit I can get to do this myself?
Or do I have to send it >somewhere, and if so, can anybody recommend a
good carb shop? > >Thanks.. >-- >Dave Paulison                  1969
Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme >Melbourne, Florida             1993
Mitsubishi Eclipse GS >dpauliso@gate.net > >

That's a lot more work than a rebuild kit.

Find a good core for the proper carb. and build that.  I expect that you
can find a good core, not spend too much for it; and then not need to
bush holes.

The Wiz

------------------------------

From: Kevin Wong <yu135008@yorku.ca>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:17:02 -0400
Subject: Re: GM Quality

> frame no longer existed on the car.  It is rare to find a car with
decent > doors or rear quarters. My 442 is from Arizona and the doors
show that. They > are spotless after 16 years. Now my 442 has been in
Ohio 3 years and already > has alot of frame surface rust. The previous
owner says that the frame was

Up here in Ontario, there are numerous rust-proofing chains that will
spray an oil based compound on the undercarriage and behind most panels.
An annual application is recommended.  Speaking of Cutlasses, I know of
an '86 4-dr which is completely original, with perfect doors and rear
frame. Needless to say, the original owner refuses to sell.  My friend's
'77 Custom Cruiser is also extremely rust free, as is my '88 Brougham
and '77 de Ville.  All these cars have been exposed to salted roads each
and every winter.  I attribute the extraordinary condition of all these
cars to yearly RustCheck treatments.  I don't believe this is a GM
quality issue; any car that is subject to road salt, in the absence of
any special treatment, will have a rust problem after 10 years.

Kevin Wong

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 15:10:19 -0400
Subject: Crankshaft Interchange

Here are some crankshaft interchanges:

CRANKSHAFT - OLDSMOBILE

'61      std trans                29B
         auto trns                29A
'62-63   std trans                37B
         auto trams               37A
'64      Jetstar 88, std trans   289B
                     auto trans  280A
         others, std trans        37B
                 auto trans       37A
'65-67   Jetstar 88, std trans   280B
                     auto trans  280A
         others, std trans       337B
                 auto trans      337A
'69-71   8-350                   427
         8-455                   429

OLDSMOBILE F85

'61-63   std trans               187
         auto trans              190
'64      6 cyl                   275
         8 cyl, std trans        280B
                auto trans       280A
'65      V6-225                  275
         8-330, std trans        280B
                auto trans       280A
         8-400 (442), std trans  337B
                      auto trans 337A
'65-67   6-250                   343
         8-330, std trans        280B
                auto trans       280A
         8-400, std trans        337B
                auto trans       337A
'68-69   6-250                   343
         8-350                   427
         8-400                   428
'70-71   6-250                   343
         8-350                   427
         8-455                   429

TORONADO

'66-67   8-425                   337A
'68-71   8-455                   429

INTERCHANGE

29A    577438, Fg 577440  Note 1: B fits A by removing polot bushing.
                          Note 2: A fits B by machining for pilot
bushing.
                          A. Olds '61 AT.
                          Note: 37A fits by including main bearings.
29B                       B. Olds '61 std trans.
                          Note: 37B fits by including main bearings.
37A    582774, Fg 582746  Note 1: B fits A by removing pilot bearing.
                          Note 2: A fits B by maching for pilot bearing.
                          A. Olds '62-63 AT.
                             Olds '64 AT exc Jetstar 88.
                          Note: 29A fits by including main bearings.
37B                       B. Olds '62-63 std trans.
                          Olds '64 std trans exc Jetstar 88.
                          Note: 29B fits by including main bearings.
187    1193645, Fg # same Buick Special '61-63 8 cyl std trans.
                          Olds F85 '61-63 std trans
                          Tempest '61-62 8 cyl std trans.
                          Note: 190 fits but check pilot brg hole & make
retainer for pilot brg if necessary.
190    1193645, Fg # same Buick Special '61-63 8 cyl AT.
                          Olds F85 '61-63 AT.
                          Tempest '61-63 8 cyl AT.
                          Note: Fits 187. See note under 187.
275 (1) 992499 Jeep       Buick Special '64-67 6 cyl.
    (2) 1378354 Buick     Jeep V6-225 eng mdls CJ, DJ & Jeepster.
        Fg 1357898        Olds F85 '64-65 V6-225.
280A   230330, Fg 381919  Note: B fits A.
               & 388776   Note: It may be necessary to remove clutch
shaft polot bushing or bearing.
                          A. Olds '64-67 Jetstar 88 AT.
                             Olds F85 '64-67 8-330 AT.
280B                      B. Olds '64-67 Jetstar 88 std trans.
                             Olds F85 '64-67 8-330 std trans.
337A   230331, Fg 384722  Note: B fits A, it may be necessary to remove
clutch shaft pilot bushing or brg.
                          A. Olds '65-67 AT exc Jetstar 88.
                             Olds F85 '65-66 8-400 (442) AT.
                             Olds F85 '67-68 8-400 AT.
                             Toronado '66-67.
337B                      B. Olds '65-67 std tans exc Jetstar 88.
                             Olds F85 '65-66 8-400 (442) std trans.
                             Olds F85 '67 8-400 std trans.
343
427    230905             Olds '68-71 8-350.
                          Olds F85 '68-71 8-350.
428    230378             Olds F85 '68-69 8-400.
429    230908             Olds '68-71 8-455.
                          Olds F85 '70-71 8-455.
                          Toronado '68-71.


I guess this confirms that these cranks are fairly interchangable.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:22:27 -0400
Subject: Re: OLDSMOBILE SUGGESTION BOX

At 09:02 PM 12/2/96 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 96-12-02 05:17:30 EST, you write:
>
>> Suggestion No. 2:  Make some part of the dash easily removable; and
put the >>  bulbs right there in front where they can be reached; from
above. > >Hey Wiz, > >Having owned quite a few large Oldsmobiles from
the '77 to '85 era, I have >experienced first hand your bulb
frustration.  Every one of those damn cars >had to have the dash board
come apart, more than once, to replace the >instrument bulbs.  But I was
always able to do this sitting in the drivers >seat and replacing the
bulbs from the front and never had any problems.  The >most difficult
part for me was getting the headlight knob off to remove the >dash face.
When changing bulbs it always helped me to have the tranny in Lo
>(parking brake applied naturally) and the tilt wheel in the upper
position >for removing the screws and in the lower position for removing
the panel. > Give it a try, after a while you can do it with your eyes
closed. > >Paul > > I just printed this and will place it in the car
where it can be gotten to for next time.  I do have enough light to see
something now, except that the right headlamp doesn't seem to be working
today.  Oh, well, I'll fix it tomorrow.

The Wiz

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 15:23:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Heads.... which is better... #5's, or #7's?

Dave Paulison wrote:
>
> >It seems that both Mondello and Dick Miller swear that you
> >have to put hardened seats in to run unleaded gas...
>
> >Has anybody had any problems running earlier heads and unleaded gas
without > >hardened seats? > > No, I have the original 350 in my
Cutlass with #5 heads and have no problems > with running 92 or 93
octane gas.  If I use anything lower it pings like > crazy, but not with
the higher octane.  Last time I pulled the heads off > (about two years
ago) there was no valve seat recession.  At that time, it > had been
running on regular unleaded, high octane for ten years or more.  It >
doesn't burn oil, either. > -- > Dave Paulison                  1


Dave,

My '68 442 hasn't been apart at all.  I have owned it over 10 years.  i
use 91-92 octane gas.  There has been no problems at all even though the
engine was bought worn.  It uses no oil at all.  I also have a '70 GS
455 Buick, '69 AMX 390, 72 AMX 401, '67 Toronado, '62 Jetfire, '62
Avanti R2, '62 Dodge 361, 7 '63 Dodge 383 w/no problems showing from
fuel.  I believe that the situation w/fuel is just as I was told years
ago; ordinary driving will cause no problems.  Only beware of heavy use
such as trailer towing or racing.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:34:49 -0400
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Looks Like We're Alive Again

On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Dave Paulison wrote:
> Why are people who want to get off the list always nasty about it?
And > don't any of them know how to read?  It tells how in the info you
get when > you subscribe, if they would only read it!!!

Geez, and I thought I was just being too sensitive... ;-)

They often do seem out of sorts. In this case it's one of the Virginia
Tech victims again and though he really wasn't as nasty as some (one
other person this weekend comes to mind) you may recall we did issue a
message specifically for these folks about 10 days ago offering help.
Guess he hasn't read his mail in that long. Can't see where that's the
fault of the list but it seems people look at it that way.

I suppose that's just another example of the curious behavior that
sometimes occurs with email in that people sometimes write things that
they would never dream of saying to someone face to face. Innocuous
remarks can take on a whole new meaning when they appear in type. Just
all the more reason to think before you hit the send key...

Thanks for the sympathy, Dave! :)

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia,
Canada

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 15:31:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Toro identity please

>
> Bill,
>
> Interchangability of wheels has never been a problem. You can put a
set of 1978 rims on > a 66 and visa versa with no problemo! In fact, you
can mix and match ANY wheel within > the first 2 Generations ad nauseum
without problems. The stickler is how/if the wheel > dressings fit. That
becomes a bit of a puzzle. > > > You don't know where a 1967 deluxe
wheel cover is do you? > > I have about 8 of them, and another 4 that
are NOS still unassembeled in the original > unopened GM boxes! I may
depart with the "not so good" ones if you are interested. > > Sparky >


Sparky,

The center caps from all years will go on all that I have seen. The trim
rings are broken into disc brake & non-disc brake. The full caps that I
have seen will go on any wheel as they are very shallow at the
attachment point or clip over the edge of the wheel rim.

What is the condition of the "not so good" ones?  What cost is
involved?  I will need at least one.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:36:53 -0400
Subject: Re: GM Quality

At 09:17 PM 12/2/96 -0400, you wrote:
>> frame no longer existed on the car.  It is rare to find a car with
decent >> doors or rear quarters. My 442 is from Arizona and the doors
show that. They >> are spotless after 16 years. Now my 442 has been in
Ohio 3 years and already >> has alot of frame surface rust. The previous
owner says that the frame was > >Up here in Ontario, there are numerous
rust-proofing chains that will >spray an oil based compound on the
undercarriage and behind most panels. >An annual application is
recommended.  Speaking of Cutlasses, I know of an >'86 4-dr which is
completely original, with perfect doors and rear frame. >Needless to
say, the original owner refuses to sell.  My friend's '77 >Custom
Cruiser is also extremely rust free, as is my '88 Brougham and '77 >de
Ville.  All these cars have been exposed to salted roads each and every
>winter.  I attribute the extraordinary condition of all these cars to
>yearly RustCheck treatments.  I don't believe this is a GM quality
issue; >any car that is subject to road salt, in the absence of any
special >treatment, will have a rust problem after 10 years. >
>Kevin Wong > > I'm sorry, but I disagree.  It is a GM QC problem.  They
are simply underbuilt.  Remember when one of the car companies
advertised dipping their bodies in primer.  Another that advertised the
extensive use of galvanized steel.

You are being taken the cleaners guys.  If they didn't know how to do
it, I could agree with you.  They do know, they just don't do it.  They
feel their job is over when it leaves the dealers showroom.  This is
accountants mentality.  You are the customer, you are the enemy!

Short lecture: GM's claim to fame began subsequent to the adoption of
DuPont lacquer paint in 1925.  All of a sudden GM cars paint shined.
People bought GM cars because they were going to look nice for a long
time.  Last fall I went to Maine to look at a 1932 GM car that had been
nicely maintained for all of its 63 years.  The paint was thin from
being polished every Sunday, but the finish still shined like glass.
(It also didn't hurt that they were good reliable transportation too).

People bought GM cars because they could keep them for more than 5
years. Today in 5 years they can't drive themselves to the junk yard.

This may be the reason that legislators are discussing 5 year cars,
because that is all GM wants to build.  Maybe GM is behind this BS.

End of lecture, speculation and message.

The Wiz

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End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #389
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