To:	oldsmobile-digest @ chebucto.ns.ca @ INTERNET
cc:	 
From:	oldsmobile-digest-owner @ chebucto.ns.ca @ INTERNET @ ABTLAB
Date:	10/18/96 12:04:15 AM
Subject:	oldsmobile-digest V1 #334


oldsmobile-digest         Friday, 18 October 1996      Volume 01 : Number 334


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dennis Sytsma <dsytsma@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:32:53 -0300
Subject: Re: Another Question

I suggest you try this as well;
remove the distibutor cap and the plugs. grab the crankshaft pully. twist 
the crank back and forth slightly while looking at the dist shaft.  Any 
"lash" between the crank and the cam indicates a badly worn timing 
chain.  A little is ok!  alot means poor performance with the risk of the 
chain jumping a tooth.  replace the water pump and fuel pump and front 
seal on the crank if you have to replace the chain.

but before you do that, I suggest you observe for worn rings by removing 
the oil filler plug. run the engine and observe for excess gasses from 
the crankcase.  Excess gasses are bad news!  This can lead to blowout of 
the bed gaskets on the intake manifold, among other things.  The excess 
gasses are caused by worn rings.

Another easy thing to check for good performance on a old engine is check 
the carb fuel pump with the engine off.  depress the accellerator plumger 
with a pocket screwdriver.  You should see a good "squirt" from the pump 
every time!  If the pump is worn out, have a local carb shop evlaute the 
carb for a rebuild (if you can find one!).  I had my pump rebuilt on my 
350R olds engine's carb last week for $35.00  Billy's carb in Cutler 
Ridge fl did it for me.  Or was it perrine florida?  boy what a 
difference in performance!  I was lucky to find a old carb shop.  Billy 
is a real pro!

If you suspect bad rings or valves, you need a compression tester and a 
compressor.  Remove all the plugs, open the carb. measusre all cylender 
pressures, write it down! squire 15 cc's of oil into all cylenders.  A 
local pet shop can sell a plastic medicine feeder to measre and squire 
the oil into the plug holes.  it is very low cost and works great!  
measre the clyender presuures again.  If a great improvment is observed 
you have bad rings.  No improvement, bad valves!  If you still need more 
data to prove "what it needss" prior to teardown.  remove the 
valvecovers, loosen the rocker arms until loose (of course).  buy a air 
hose fitting, and screw into the spark plug hole.  put compressed air 
into the cylender that you suspect is bad. listen to the exaust, intake, 
crankcase oil filler, and observe the radior.  any leaks will show up.  
look for bubbles in the radiaor water.

If you can get some plastic valvecover shileds, run the engine. confirm 
that you have good oil flow being pumped thru the valve train, and that 
the pushrods are being twisted during operation.  If not you need to 
replace the lifters. only about $30.00 in parts less labor and gaskets.  
Lack of oil will kill the cam, and valve train.

And above all "be carefull"!  cars are no fun if you get hurt while 
working on it!  

After you finished your evalution, only then can somesay they got a great 
deal!  Not sure about body, interior, etc.  I have gotten a lot of great 
service from old tired engines by replacment of cam chain, water pump, 
fuel pump, lifters, thermostat.  most of the time the rings are the last 
to go!  Do not do a valve job if the rings are bad!  a valve job on a 
worn engine will give great blowby and oil consumption.  new plugs and 
wires also help give great performance from old tired mills.

I have been ashade tree mechanic for years.  the basics never change.
good luck, and have fun,  proceed at your own risk!  Many techical 
schools offer great supevised workshops for a minimal fee.  It is a great 
way to learn your car.  please forgive me if you are a expericenence 
engine person.  I thought someone reading this could use this information.
regards



Dennis Sytsma
dsytsma@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us


On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, Dana and Mary Taylor wrote:

> Sat I was shoping at my local yard and bought a 1979 Bonneyville. The 
> Sticker on the fan shroud said 400cid but the engine was an Olds. The 
> number behind the water pump was 396021 With a big F. The number on the 
> oil filler tube was 6342284. The heads have a J on them. The manifold has 
> Oldsmobile cast into it right in front of the carb. Which is a qjet by 
> the way. It has single exhaust. 
> It started hard and ran poorly until it warmed a little. As I drove it 
> home it lacked real power and would shoot flames out the exhaust. 
>  Today I checked it out a little and sloved some of the problems. The 
> dist vac advance hose was connected to the carb line on the charcoal 
> canaster. It had cheap aftermarket wires on it and number three plug was 
> sparking to the tin cover for the heat tube to the carb. As i was 
> watching it run I could see the plugs on the drivers side moving in the 
> holes. (they were all loose on the left bank). The choke plate was 
> disconnected (why it starts so hard) but the housing adjustment was 
> adjusted so rich that the fast idle stayed on and wouldn't allow the rear 
> barrels to open. I fixed all the obvious problems except for the choke 
> plate (didn't want to remove the cover on the carb today). What a 
> difference!!! it now goes down the road with deturmination. The power 
> curve is definatly off though. It won't set you back until 30 mph in low 
> and when it goes to second it bogs again until approx 50. It isn't 
> registered so i was limited in driving distance and area so I never let 
> it get to high. I still have to connect the trans downshift cable (the 
> bracket that it sits in is missing). 
>  Now for the questions: What is this motor?? 
>  Did it come in the Bonney???
>  I don't trust the sticker on the shroud as it is obvious that the shroud 
> was modified to accept the radiator so I don't know if  it is original or 
> not. I didn't measure it but it looks like the spread between the heads 
> is wider that wy 307.
>  Was $150.00 too much??
> 

------------------------------

From: Dennis Sytsma <dsytsma@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:38:44 -0300
Subject: Re: Another Question

ps
fire shooting from the exhaust could be sticking exhaust valves. An iol 
addive could help this, but beware! a oil addive to a gunked up moter can 
kill it!  How you ask?  Oil addives to clean up valvetrains sometimes 
loosen up so much gunk, that oil passages, the critical ones get 
blocked!  The end result, a blown engine.  I know, I tried thison a old 
455 an broke all the oil rings!
later!



Dennis Sytsma
dsytsma@dcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us


On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, Dana and Mary Taylor wrote:

> Sat I was shoping at my local yard and bought a 1979 Bonneyville. The 
> Sticker on the fan shroud said 400cid but the engine was an Olds. The 
> number behind the water pump was 396021 With a big F. The number on the 
> oil filler tube was 6342284. The heads have a J on them. The manifold has 
> Oldsmobile cast into it right in front of the carb. Which is a qjet by 
> the way. It has single exhaust. 
> It started hard and ran poorly until it warmed a little. As I drove it 
> home it lacked real power and would shoot flames out the exhaust. 
>  Today I checked it out a little and sloved some of the problems. The 
> dist vac advance hose was connected to the carb line on the charcoal 
> canaster. It had cheap aftermarket wires on it and number three plug was 
> sparking to the tin cover for the heat tube to the carb. As i was 
> watching it run I could see the plugs on the drivers side moving in the 
> holes. (they were all loose on the left bank). The choke plate was 
> disconnected (why it starts so hard) but the housing adjustment was 
> adjusted so rich that the fast idle stayed on and wouldn't allow the rear 
> barrels to open. I fixed all the obvious problems except for the choke 
> plate (didn't want to remove the cover on the carb today). What a 
> difference!!! it now goes down the road with deturmination. The power 
> curve is definatly off though. It won't set you back until 30 mph in low 
> and when it goes to second it bogs again until approx 50. It isn't 
> registered so i was limited in driving distance and area so I never let 
> it get to high. I still have to connect the trans downshift cable (the 
> bracket that it sits in is missing). 
>  Now for the questions: What is this motor?? 
>  Did it come in the Bonney???
>  I don't trust the sticker on the shroud as it is obvious that the shroud 
> was modified to accept the radiator so I don't know if  it is original or 
> not. I didn't measure it but it looks like the spread between the heads 
> is wider that wy 307.
>  Was $150.00 too much??
> 

------------------------------

From: Kevin Wong <yu135008@yorku.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 02:02:59 -0300
Subject: Re: Replacing Cutlass

> In case anyone is interested, the Cutlass Ciera is being replaced  with
> the Cutlass.  The Cutlass Supreme name is being retired, and the model is 
> being replaced with the Intrigue.   
> ....
> 4 door sedan (resembles an Accord)

I really think GM is making a mistake with the styling of the
Malibu/Cutlass.  It looks like a Camry-sized Corolla.  BTW, the Olds
Cutlass will not be sold in Canada when it debuts early next year.
I've read that the Intrigue, which was originally slated to get the 3.4
DOHC V6, might be getting the 3800 V6, and possibly its supercharged
variant.

Kevin Wong

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@sequent1.providence.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 02:06:45 -0300
Subject: The EGR system on 403's- Complaint (and solution) 

When I first got it, the 403 in my Electra had poor driveability at low
speeds; it seemed to run rough when you drove it around town below 40mph,
like it was missing or stumbling. All the tuneups in the world wouldn't
change this "feature".

I finally determined that the rough-running engine was caused by the EGR
valve kicking in as soon as I opened the throttle past idle. The trouble
was, that with a 2.41 rear gear, at below 40mph the car was just barely
above idle anyway; if you have ever had an EGR valve stick open, you know
what happens to your idle quality (rough/stalling). There is a thermal
check/delay valve in the vacuum line to the EGR valve that delays the
opening of the EGR at part throttle, and keeps it from opening when the
engine is cold; replacing this helped, but only to keep it from stalling
from a start. If I disconnected the EGR valve, low-speed operation smoothed
out significantly, but there was lots of pinging under a part-throttle load.

Well, I rebuilt that engine, hooked up the factory emissions controls, and
the driveability problems were still there. Out of frustration, I
disconnected the EGR valve, and the low-speed operation smoothed out
considerably; without all the carbon in the combustion chamber, though, I
get no pinging at part or full-throttle (with 16 deg. initial advance). Nor
does the engine run hotter (EGR is suppose to lower combustion temps by
decreasing combustion efficiency; removing it can sometimes make the car run
hotter).

Here's my question: Is there any way to get smooth low-speed operation with
the EGR valve operative? I assume it's possible with computer-controlled EGR
valves and fuel-injection, but is it hopeless with the vacuum regulated
system and a carb? Has anyone used an MSD to solve this problem?

Why keep the EGR? Well, aside from the emissions legality factor, it really
isn't detrimental to full-throttle operation (where it is closed anyway), so
I'm not opposed to it in principle. I'm not morally opposed to removing it,
either, since I'm sure the unburned hydrocarbons from the misfiring engine
running around town aren't doing the air much good.

FINAL OBSERVATION: It seems that GM tuned most of its early smog motors to
give good performance under only _absolutely_ wide-open throttle. When you
whomp on the gas pedal of a stock 403, the EGR cuts out, the Q-jet's
secondaries open and you get a rich shot of gas going through the cylinders,
all of which results in something that almost puts you back in your seat. Up
until that 100% open throttle (even, say, at 98% throttle), however, you're
sucking an EGR-polluted mixture through those two tiny primary venturies.
Needless to say, driveability sucks. I'm learning this now, as I calibrate
the fuel and spark system of my modified 403 to deliver good all-around
performance.

Anyone else on this list have good luck tuning a smog system to work well on
a modified motor at less than WOT?

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Std. Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
- - 1978 Electra Limited Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: "Graham Stewart" <graham.stewart@utoronto.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 03:54:13 -0300
Subject: Re: ABBA vs. New Oldsmobile Symbol

> >Tim (Anybody Got Any Abba Records?) Churchill
> Yeah, me.  You'd be surprised at what I have in the vinyl collection...
> --
> Dave Paulison 

Me too, I've got about six.  I don't think it's a coincidence that I like
70s cars and 70s music (or 60s or 50s, for that matter).

Graham (Super Trooper) Stewart
Toronto, Canada
graham.stewart@utoronto.ca

------------------------------

From: "Graham Stewart" <graham.stewart@utoronto.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 03:57:43 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Oldsmobile image

>      How 'bout an all wheel drive Toro?  Just a minimal amount of torque
> transfer to the rear so the fronts still smoke the right way!  Would this
> still work for it?  :)
     
>       Charley Buehner

It's been done: check out the article on the 2-engined Grant Industries 66
Toro in "Oldsmobile: The Performance Years" ... 850 cubic inches, 770
horsepower, 5900 pounds ... sounds OK to me ...

Graham Stewart
Toronto, Canada
graham.stewart@utoronto.ca

------------------------------

From: "Peg O'Connor" <peg@grove.ufl.EDU>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 04:19:40 -0300
Subject: Re: New Oldsmobile Symbol

> I thought I read somewhere that the new symbol is only for use during 
> the 100th anniversary celebration, and that Olds was going to return 
> to the rocket symbol at some point afterwards.  Anyone else read or 
> hear this?

I heard just the opposite.  I've read that Olds is very excited about the
new symbol because of all that it represents (whatever that may be).
They're making a conscious effort to move toward something new (whatever
*that* may be), and intend to keep that symbol, as far as I know (whyever
that may be).  I think it *sucks* in a big way.

8)
peg

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 06:15:13 -0300
Subject: Re: The EGR system on 403's- Complaint (and solution) 

>I finally determined that the rough-running engine was caused by the EGR
>valve kicking in as soon as I opened the throttle past idle.

As far as I can guess from here, you've got the EGR plugged in to the wrong
port.  You're feeding it ported vaccuum (manifold vacuum at off-idle and
above) when it ~should~ be getting venturi vaccuum (increasing vacuum with
rpm and throttle position)  The more you step on it, the more vacuum it
~should~ get.  I've got a feeling your EGR valve is closing at WOT, (low
vacuum) when it ~should~ be fully open.  This port is often a source of
drivability problems.  I've seen vacuum modulators plugged in here.  THAT
gives some really bizzare shift patterns!  I've seen many vacuum advance
canisters plugged into the venturi vaccuum.  
     Bottom line:  Get a vaccuum guage and map out all your ports.  --Any
ports that have high vacuum at idle are manifold vacuum ports.  These feed
your heater control supply, map sensor (on newer ones) Vacuum advance (some
models), air cleaner controls, etc. and trans. vacuum modulator.  
- --Any ports (usually just one) that shows zero vacuum at idle, but full
vacuum at off-idle (throttle just cracked open slightly) is ported vacuum.
These can go to the vacuum advance on some vehicles, and some have other
sadistic uses for this line, I guess.
- --One port will show no vacuum at idle or off-idle, but will increase vacuum
with rpm.  This is the venturi vacuum.  EGR goes here.  There may be vacuum
delay valves, ported vacuum switches, and crap like that in between, but the
root source is the venturi vacuum port.  
- --Did I miss many?  I don't think the RamAir routing is a particular concern
(but is interesting, at least on my GS)

>Anyone else on this list have good luck tuning a smog system to work well on
>a modified motor at less than WOT?

Hope this helps at least a little...
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:44:24 -0300
Subject: Re: No more great cars(not really olds related)

On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Gregory G. Kalkhoff wrote:
> Is it me, or is the world getting way tooooooo spoiled? I am far from being 
a prude, but 
> Lordy, where does common end start and craving for Yuppie convenience start? 
I'm all for 
> technology and improvements, but come on......heated seats, split air 
temperture 
> controls, HUD, CRT displays for maps...etc ect?????? Next they will be 
putting micro 
> wave ovens in them tp keep your coffee from getting tepid!

This reminds me of a ltter I wrote to Car & Driver last year which they
didn't publish... it was about sticker shock, new car prices, etc. I had
just rented a car for a business trip and it struck me just how much stuff
this thing had on it, especially for a fleet car... power windows,
mirrors, locks, A/C, all sorts of trick stuff. It got me to thinking about
my '68 and how things have changed since then. Even accepting that all the
mandated emissions and safety equipment is a good thing and worth whatever
it adds to the price of a car (for argument's sake), the level of standard
equipment surely must add lots to the price of a vehicle these days. I was
thinking back and my '68 had what was pretty typical at the time: power
steering and brakes, automatic trans, radio. That's it. I think every car
my dad ever bought had the same equipment. 

Not saying we all want to go back to that, but I think that a reduced 
equipment level might help the sticker shock problem a little. Do we 
really need time-delayed courtesy lights, heated seats, reclining rear 
seats, and all that other stuff? If you want it, great, but I wonder if 
there isn't a market for a more basic vehicle these days that isn't an 
econobox. Think about it: an Aurora-powered C/S with vinyl buckets, 
manual windows and locks, nice tires and suspension, maybe a sound 
system... think that would sell?

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:00:53 -0300
Subject: Re: New Olds Logo

I said:
> Well, at least it's *still* a rocket.  Sorta.  If you squint
> and jiggle your head while lookin' at it.<<<<<<<<<<<<

I wrote the above in the trademark flavor of my slightly cynical sense of 
humor,
though I guess I should've attached a smiley at the end to indicate this :)

Bob H sez: 
> A rocket?  Where?  It's an "O" with a squiggle some artist thought looked
> good.  My friend in Olds said they designed a number of alternate designs and
> asked a panel of yuppies (oops, sorry if that means you :-)) and what we got
                   ^^^^^^^

(Wearing his "Die Yuppie Scum!" T-shirt):  I don't recall the stereotypical
yuppie tooling around in a 30 year old ragtop, but hey, I'm not up on the
latest trends, and it might be different where you live, Bob :)
         
> was the winner.  They weren't told what the logo was for, just which appealed
> to them the most.

After thinking about it a bit more, as well as taking another gander at the
new logo, I *do* in fact see a stylized rocket in the oval, and it's no more
abstract in design than the stylized rocket in the 'classic' rectangular logo
(ducks as tomatoes are tossed in my gen'l direction).

Bottom line, I don't have heartburn with the new symbol.  I don't believe in
change for change's sake; but if GM thinks it needs this to help with the
current image of Olds, well its *their* division after all.  I just hope the
changes they have planned in their product line (which is the most important
aspect of course, regardless of the logo slapped on it) helps the division,
and imparts to it a character (that we like!), different from the other GM
makes.

Bob H also sez: 
> What a way to run a .............insert appropriate subject of your choice.
>  Mine aren't p.c.
> 
> Mike's right.  It sucks.
> 

That's what great about America (*and* Canada):  Everybody's entitled to
their opinion, at least in situations where there's no absolute right or
wrong :)

(Gets off his soapbox) 
 


Tim Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'89 Cadillac Fleetwood, nickname yet to be determined
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:07:56 -0300
Subject: Re: "pull the key option"

> I hate to disagree with Bob Handren, but I'm pretty sure that pulling the 
> key out with the switch on *was* a design feature on certain GM ignition 
> switches in the early '60s at least. Two reasons: 1) on my '64 I can do 
> it and the bezel shows both a "lock" position and a separate "off" 
> position. Key can be removed in either position and if you do so in the 
> "off" position you can still start the car.
> 
> 2) I dimly recalled this in a '63 Impala my brother bought new. Thought 
> it was neat at the time. When i got my '64 and it had a similar switch 
> all the memories came back.
> 
> Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

Dunno if it was a planned design feature (in software terms, a "feature"
is a design flaw that is documented :) ), but it's true that in every single GM
car I've owned, up through the 1972 model year at least (and some later years
as well), I've been able to remove the ignition key while the car was running.

In H.S., when I had my '67 Catalina (AKA, the "S.S. Hefenreffer" :) ), my
friends and I called this feature "The Option", and still do to this day.
Helped out when we went to the old Natick Drive-In, R.I.P., when we would
sneak in 3 - 4 other kids in the massive trunk... I'd just pull into the
last row, where all the vans would go -- they provided good visible
interference from the theater mgmt -- pull the key outta the still running
car, quickly unlock the trunk, and get back in the drivers seat in just a
coupla secs.

If the GM engineers of old *did* intend for this feature, they had foresight
far beyond that of mortal men.... :)



Tim Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'89 Cadillac Fleetwood, nickname yet to be determined
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:16:11 -0300
Subject: Re: ABBA vs. New Oldsmobile Symbol

> > >Tim (Anybody Got Any Abba Records?) Churchill
> > Yeah, me.  You'd be surprised at what I have in the vinyl collection...
> > --
> > Dave Paulison 
> 
> Me too, I've got about six.  I don't think it's a coincidence that I like
> 70s cars and 70s music (or 60s or 50s, for that matter).
> 
> Graham (Super Trooper) Stewart
> Toronto, Canada
> graham.stewart@utoronto.ca
> 
> 

I think you've gotta point Graham... and to add a 90's flavor to it, my wife
and I have a lot of these groups (Abba, America, Steve Miller, etc) on CD!

Our cars feel the same way, too.

When I first got Big Red, the AM/FM stereo (non original, of course) that was
in it *only* picked up the local Oldies station -- spooky, in a Stephen King
way...




Tim (Thinking P'haps He Shoulda Named Big Red "Christine") Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'89 Cadillac Fleetwood, nickname yet to be determined
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:48:49 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds, Racing, Advertising, etc

> why I call them "marketing weenies".  Ever notice how long the Chevy 
> bowtie and the Ford oval has been around?

I thought that Chevy's logo was a chevron (hence the name Chevrolet).  I
could be wrong.

- --Chris Sparks

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:57:05 -0300
Subject: Blah-Blah-Woof-Woof

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- --------------70DD3DED5AA7
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FYI

The 66 Toro and Mike

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Oct 1996 09:38:50 -0400
From: OldsHeidi@aol.com
Received: by emout03.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA23935 for 
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Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:38:14 -0400
Message-ID: <961017093812_128814556@emout03.mail.aol.com>
To: edison3@cpeq.com
Subject: Re: New Oldsmobile Symbol
Status: U
X-Mozilla-Status: 0011

Hello,

Thank you for visiting the Oldsmobile Online area.  We appreciate you taking
the time to share your comments.  The new emblem is a cicle with the newly
designed rocket symbol heading in the "right" direction.  It is very simular
to the Aurora emblem you are right.

As Oldsmobile enters its centennial year you will see several new products
and the disappearance of some old familiar ones.  The Ciera is gone, the
Cutlass Supreme is gone as of the end of this year and the Ninety Eight is
gone.   Our Centennial line up consists of the all new "Cutlass".  The
completely redesigned Silhouette and the 1998 Intrigue which will be
introduced Spring of 1997.  You will also see the new Alero in 1998.  We are
excited about our future and I am sorry to hear that we have not fulfilled
your expectations.   Hopefully you will take a look at some of new products
and consider us in the future.

Sincerely,
Olds Heidi


- --------------70DD3DED5AA7--

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:59:17 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds, Racing, Advertising, etc

Chris Sparks wrote:
> 
> I thought that Chevy's logo was a chevron (hence the name Chevrolet).  

I thought the guy's *name* was Chevrolet.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: "Roger M. Borlase" <BORLASE@gordonc.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:20:51 -0300
Subject: Re: Replacing Cutlass 

>DOHC V6, might be getting the 3800 V6, and possibly its supercharged
>variant.

I wouldn't hold my breath on the supercharged engine.  Its not the image Olds 
is going for.  I don't think that it'll even get the 3800, since its the base 
engine in GM pony cars, and big sedans.

Roger Borlase
http://www.cs.gordonc.edu/~borlase/wagon.html

------------------------------

From: "Gregory G. Kalkhoff" <gkalkhof@execpc.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:33:08 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds, Racing, Advertising, etc

Mike Frederick wrote:

> I thought the guy's *name* was Chevrolet. 
> The 66 Toro and Mike

Louis Chevrolet rings a bell for some reason.....  (:  Some French fella who 
had his own 
company before GM gobbled him up I presume!

Greg Early

- -- 
Greg Kalkhoff                                      Driven Images
4217 W. Fond du Lac Ave.                http://cpeq.com/~edison3/dihome.html
Milwaukee, WI.  53216	
414-447-7500

------------------------------

From: VUBS79A@prodigy.com (MR DREW A DURIGAN)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:15:48 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds, Racing, Advertising, etc 

Greetings, all!

As a proud past-Oldsmobile owner (and hopefully, to soon be one 
again), I was quite happy to find this mailing group!

I've owned three Oldsmobiles:

In the summer of 1982, I graduated from high school and purchased a 
1977 Cutlass Supreme with 38 $100 bills that I had painstakingly 
saved while working part-time at K-Mart for the past year-and-a-half.

Beautiful car!  It was in mint condition, one owner, blue on blue, 
49K miles, 350R w/ 4-bbl.  Unfortunately, it died a premature death 
17 months later when it was parked in front of a friend's house and a 
drunk hit it while rounding the corner.  Estimated speed at impact 
was 60-70MPH.  Frame was broke.  The body shop people told me that it 
would never ride right again.  I cried tears as I watched the wrecker 
tow her away to the salvage yard.

In 1987, I acquired my father's 1978 Ninety-Eight Regency.  By this 
time, it alreeady had 145K miles, had survived one rear-end collision,
 and was accumulating rust as a result of being driven in Minnesota 
winters.  But of course, the 403 and Turbo 400 performed flawlessly.  
Over the next 6 years, I moved several times in that car...from 
Minnesota to Iowa to Oregon to Florida (I work in broadcast radio and 
we move around a lot!)  Finally, at 219K, the seals went in the rear 
end.  By this time, it had been hit a total of 3 times (just pound it 
out and keep driving, put pity on the poor Fiero who lost his whole 
front end when he hit me in the rear! <g>) and the rust was halfway 
up the doors.  But the engine STILL didn't burn a drop of oil.  In 
fact, I sold the car as-is to an Olds enthusiast who wanted the 
powertrain to put in a '41 coupe he was rebuilding!  

After being "carless" for a couple of months, I came across a 1979 
Cutlass Supreme for sale.  It had been sitting in a lady's yard for 
two years since she got a new car, and she didn't want it anymore.  
Body was perfect, car had 130K on it.  Her mother was the original 
owner, and it had been in Florida and Kansas (no salt) for all it's 
life.  Had a 260 engine, all options (including the rare factory 
electric moonroof), etc.  I paid her $400 cash for it!  Moved to 
Minnesota and then back to Florida with it.  When the timing chain 
went at 165K, I sold it to a friend who wanted to restore it for 
$500!  Another great Oldsmobile.

I'm currently driving an '87 Buick Somerset (hey, I needed a car!), 
but looking to get another Oldsmobile as soon as the "right one" 
comes along.  

Love those cars!


- -Drew in Sunny Central Florida-

------------------------------

From: R4C442@aol.com
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:44:36 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds, Racing, Advertising, etc 

  I agree with you wholeheartedly Bob.
     PSSST! Did you here that an Aurora V-8 will power open-wheelers in the
IRL
series next year? Musn't say this too loudly.

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:44:37 -0300
Subject: Re: Blah-Blah-Woof-Woof (Rant Mode On!)

Mike (and others),

That's interesting stuff from "Heidi". I'm wondering if anyone had the
same reaction as I did to it: typical big-organization public relations
spin-doctoring, containing zero credibility and an unknown but presumably
low amount of accuracy. I have found over the last few years that P.R.
types and their messages have sunk to a new low in my scheme of things. I
would almost rather deal with anyone other than these professional...
well, I was going to use a strong term indicating someone who fails to
tell the truth, but there may be some in the audience who would take
offense.... ;-)  Apologies (and condolences) top anyone here who may 
actually have to spin these webs for a living...

Second question: who the heck *is* Heidi anyway? John Rock's niece or 
something? And what is she doing on AOL? Does she speak for Olds? What 
does their communications division have to say about her? It all seems 
rather strange.... I have visions of a freckle-faced blond kid in 
pigtails and glasses or whatever. Kind of strange.

OK, I feel better. Rant mode off.
 
:)

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: R4C442@aol.com
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 11:58:41 -0300
Subject: Re: '67 442 

I was contacted prior to the shooting of that Quad-4/442 comparison by
Lansing. They said that they wanted to use my car and would have it
transported to California
by air. I said "cool", what about me? They said "forget you"(uncool). When I
asked what the crux of the ad was, they said "something about a comparison
with a Quad-4. I replied "there is none". So they said the particular was
that the Quad-4 would outrun a 442 from 0-60! I replied "NOT MINE, IT
WON'T!!! " and promptly challenged
them anytime..anywhere!  My thrown gauntlet was meekly returned whereupon we
parted. If they did indeed have a match-race, you are probably right in
saying it was 
the smallest carbuerated..2.0 rear-ended...heaviest 442 they could find!

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:04:41 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds, Racing, Advertising, etc

> 
> Mike Frederick wrote:
> 
> > I thought the guy's *name* was Chevrolet. 
> > The 66 Toro and Mike
> 
> Greg Early wrote:
>
> Louis Chevrolet rings a bell for some reason.....  (:  Some French fella who 
had his own 
> company before GM gobbled him up I presume!

I guess then it must be a coincidence that Chevrolet (the person, company
whatever) selected a Chevron for his company's logo.  I guess puns were 
intended!

BTW:  I think Chevy's are overrated.  This is evidenced by the fact that most
      Chevy truck owners I encounter on the road think that their vehicle can
      out race mine.  Such fools.  
      
      Actually the only race I lost was to a late 80's Z28.  I didn't know at
      the time that I was being challenged so I had a slow start (no tires 
      burned).  What's wrong with racers today.  Don't they give the high sign
      when they want to race?  Seems to me a little sneaky....  Anyway, I 
      didn't do too badly since:
      
        1) My car is heavier than his was
        2) I maintained a one car's length behind him all the way
        3) My transmission was acting a little funky
        
      I thought my 77 Olds Cutlass was awesome, but my 68 442 will definitely
      get me in trouble ;-)
      
      Does anyone know of any specs for the 68 442 in terms of 0-60, max speed,
      etc?  I would sure like to know.
      
      Another rant:  I am soooo glad to find this newsgroup.  There are other
      types of cars besides Fords and Chevys ;-)  How many of you get tired of
      hearing "What is that?  A GTO? A Chevy Nova?"  It is an Oldsmobile and
      don't youuuuu forget it.  That is enough of that.  Whew!

------------------------------

From: tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:09:55 -0300
Subject: Re: Rubber body mounts

> A few months ago a list member described how the body mount rubbers 
> he ordered from year one lasted one year (pun intended).  
[...]
> the quality of resotration parts may not be equal to NOS/original.
 
 
I've heard other people say things like this about automotive
rubber in general.  Things like the original spare tire is
still OK, but tires bought less than 5 years ago and stored 
have since fallen to pieces.  Original equipment rubber brake
line lasted 30+ years, the replacement rotted in 1/10th that
time.  The rubber portion of NOS motor mounts produced back
in '69 is still fine, but the rubber in a (unused) motor mount
made in '84 is shot.  etc, etc, etc...

Have the changed something in the way they make rubber so
that it degrades more quickly?  (perhaps apease enviromentalists?)
Are the replacements just poor quality?  If there is a difference,
how can we tell them apart?
 
- - Travis and the 69 olds 98 convertible aka "Tiny"
- --
Travis McWaters                           Transmission Products Division
tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com               DSC Communications Corporation

------------------------------

From: FERRERO@uno.cc.geneseo.edu
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:09:20 -0300
Subject: Re: Ignition Switch Question



------------------------------

From: FERRERO@uno.cc.geneseo.edu
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:09:59 -0300
Subject: Re: '67 442



------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:17:26 -0300
Subject: Re: '67 442

> 
> I was contacted prior to the shooting of that Quad-4/442 comparison by
> Lansing. They said that they wanted to use my car and would have it
> transported to California

When was this?

> by air. I said "cool", what about me? They said "forget you"(uncool). When I
> asked what the crux of the ad was, they said "something about a comparison
> with a Quad-4. I replied "there is none". So they said the particular was
> that the Quad-4 would outrun a 442 from 0-60! I replied "NOT MINE, IT
> WON'T!!! " and promptly challenged
> them anytime..anywhere!  My thrown gauntlet was meekly returned whereupon we
> parted. If they did indeed have a match-race, you are probably right in
> saying it was 
> the smallest carbuerated..2.0 rear-ended...heaviest 442 they could find!

I remember seeing a commercial, in California, where Oldsmobile was comparing
a 1977 Cutlass to the 4-cylinder 442.  They claimed that it ran just as fast
but had twice the gas mileage.  I had a 77 Cutlass and would have liked to
have seen this car out race it.  Mine was stock too with no mods.  I used to
race 1990 5.0 Liter Mustangs for fun...

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:23:07 -0300
Subject: Re: Mirror

Hi Olds-weenies,

     This morning my driver's side mirror came off the door.  It had been loose
but I figured I get it tightened down this week.  No fun pulling off panels.
I noticed an oddity.  The mirror was held in place by two screws, the odd part
is that there is no way to tighten the screen.  The tops of the screws are
completely smooth!!  How in the world am I going to get this back onto the 
door?
How did the Olds factory put this on in the first place.  Maybe I have to get
another kind of screw and use lock-tite.  Did these mirrors have a rubber
groumet (sp?)?

Any help appreciated.

Chris Sparks

------------------------------

From: Frank Boerger <103454.317@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:29:39 -0300
Subject: FW: Olds, Racing, Advertising, etc

Mike Frederick wrote that Chris Sparks wrote:
> 
> I thought that Chevy's logo was a chevron (hence the name Chevrolet).  

>I thought the guy's *name* was Chevrolet.

Yeah, wasn't it Louis Chevrolet the famous Indy type racer ???

His brother rode mechanic with him from time to time.

And a chevron is like "Private's" stripe, an inverted Vee.

Frank Boerger//Tallahassee, FL

------------------------------

From: "Mike Coccagna" <mikec@oz.kis.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:40:56 -0300
Subject: Re: '67 442

On 17 Oct 96 at 12:17, Chris Sparks wrote:

> comparing a 1977 Cutlass to the 4-cylinder 442.  They claimed that
> it ran just as fast but had twice the gas mileage. [snip]
> I used to race 1990 5.0 Liter Mustangs for fun...

So do we. :-) 

Mike
'91 W-40 Quad442

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 05:48:20 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Rubber body mounts 

     Along the body mount lines, I've heard that on other G-body cars 
     (Regal and MC) not all of the body mounts on the frame are used.  
     There are supposedly like 7 or 8 mounts along one side of the frame, 
     but 3 or 4 of them are sometimes left unused!
     
     I've heard that you can firm up body flex a bit by buying mounts and 
     bolts (both still available from GM I think) to put in the unused 
     mounts.  Anyone care to look under their G-body Cutlass to check?  
     It's raining here and I don't have a dry garage. . .


______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Rubber body mounts
Author:  oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca at INTERNET
Date:    10/17/96 8:33 AM


> A few months ago a list member described how the body mount rubbers 
> he ordered from year one lasted one year (pun intended).  
[...]
> the quality of resotration parts may not be equal to NOS/original.
     
     
     I've heard other people say things like this about automotive rubber 
     in general.  Things like the original spare tire is still OK, but 
     tires bought less than 5 years ago and stored have since fallen to 
     pieces.

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:12:38 -0300
Subject: Re: Mirror

On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Chris Sparks wrote:
>      This morning my driver's side mirror came off the door.  It had been 
loose
> but I figured I get it tightened down this week.  No fun pulling off panels.
> I noticed an oddity.  The mirror was held in place by two screws, the odd 
part
> is that there is no way to tighten the screen.  The tops of the screws are
> completely smooth!!  How in the world am I going to get this back onto the 
door?
> How did the Olds factory put this on in the first place.  Maybe I have to get
> another kind of screw and use lock-tite.  Did these mirrors have a rubber
> groumet (sp?)?

I assume you're talking about a '69 non-remote mirror. They are held to
the door by an odd system of mushroom-shaped studs. There should be an
allen key opening in the exterior end of one of the studs that comes thru
the mirror base that is used to tighten the mirror to the door. No need to
remove door panels; it can be done from outside the car. The mirror did
use a rubber gasket to seal it to the door panel; these are available from
Fusick's and others. 

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:28:56 -0300
Subject: Re: Mirror

Greg Beaulieu wrote:

> I assume you're talking about a '69 non-remote mirror. They are held to
> the door by an odd system of mushroom-shaped studs. There should be an
> allen key opening in the exterior end of one of the studs that comes thru
> the mirror base that is used to tighten the mirror to the door. No need to
> remove door panels; it can be done from outside the car. The mirror did
> use a rubber gasket to seal it to the door panel; these are available from
> Fusick's and others. 
> 
> Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

Actually I have a 68 442 (Sorry for not specifying) and your synopsis was
accurate!  Thanks.

Chris

------------------------------

From: Frank Boerger <103454.317@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:50:31 -0300
Subject: FW: Mirror

On 10/16/96, Chris Sparks wrote:

>     This morning my driver's side mirror came off the door.  It had been 
loose
>but I figured I get it tightened down this week.  No fun pulling off panels.
>I noticed an oddity.  The mirror was held in place by two screws, the odd
> part is that there is no way to tighten the screen.  The tops of the screws
>are completely smooth!!  How in the world am I going to get this back onto 
>the
door?
>How did the Olds factory put this on in the first place.  Maybe I have to get
>another kind of screw and use lock-tite.  Did these mirrors have a rubber
>groumet (sp?)?

If this is like my '68, the "screws" are inside threaded rivets, and these
locate into the slot in the doorskin. (place mirror rivet heads into holes, and
slide for or aft to the end of the doorskin slot)  You then tighten the mirror
by screwing in the two allen screws accessed through two holes on the outside 
in
the mirror base.  Make certain they are freed up or they might not turn !

Frank Boerger//Tallahassee, FL

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:02:41 -0300
Subject: Blown Head Gaskets 

Jeff Stanish wrote:

>>>>>I rebuilt a '69 455ci .040 over.  I can't keep head gaskets sealed.<<<<

Jeff:

How much have the heads been cut?  What is your compression ratio?

The only time I have had this problem with an Olds BB is when I ran 12:1
pistons and cut the heads 0.125".  My assumption for my problem was the head
material was too thin after such a large cut and the internal pressure got
high enough make them blow.  I installed another set of heads less
agressively milled and all was well even at 12:1.

The Fel-Pro teflon head gaskets are pretty good.  They can seal a block/head
combination the original thin shim gaskets can't.

But I also learned during my lesson that thicker head gaskets are _not_ the
best answer.  This increases the area that the gases in the engine can work
on.  The best situation is flat surfaces and a thin shim gasket like Olds
originally used.  I can't even find them any more.

Anyone know where the thin steel shim head gaskets can be obtained?

Bob Handren                               OCA# 7728
'67 W-30 Modified                        '70 SX Convertible

Handren Associates, Inc.             Oviedo, FL
U.S. FDA Regulatory Affairs, 
Laser & Optical Radiation Safety  (407)365-6385

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:02:55 -0300
Subject: Bravada 

Sorry to hear about your troubles.  Particularly since Olds is rather "proud"
of the Bravada.  The price of one seems a little (a lot?) high for a
essentially a spruced up Blazer.

I do own two Jeep Cherokees.  One is the wife's and has low mileage
(~50,000). I have had some of your same experiences with the other one, but
not nearly as much and they started at closer to 100,000 miles.  Items
included front bearings (takes a 10 ton press to remove and install them!)
and the alternator (worked fine, rear bearing fell apart).  While I had the
front of the engine compartment torn apart to get at the alternator, I
pre-emptively replaced the water pump and idler bearing and put in the second
serpentine belt of it's ~120,000 mile life.

Serpentine belts should be replaced every 50-60,000 miles on principle.

Isn't the Bravada a full time 4x4?  The "clunk" you hear could be from
several things.  IMHO the most common cause is probably just increased
clearances in the front diff gears, axel shafts, u/cv-joints, etc.  The lube
in your full time 4x4 system might be worn out and the clutch plates are
releasing with a "clunk".  Try replacing the lube with fresh.

If the Bravada wasn't so expensive I would certainly have purchased one but
settled for the Jeep.

BTW, my experience is on an '87 model Cherokee.  As mentioned it currently
has ~120,000 miles on it.  Very reliable really.  Since Chrysler bought AMC
they have essentially gutted the thing.  The Dana 44 front and rear ends are
gone in favor if corporate diffs, the new process transfer case with full
time 4X4 option is gone, the electronic Aisin-Warner auto trans, etc.  Too
bad.  They may look the same but they ain't!

Bob Handren                               OCA# 7728
'67 W-30 Modified                        '70 SX Convertible

Handren Associates, Inc.             Oviedo, FL
U.S. FDA Regulatory Affairs, 
Laser & Optical Radiation Safety  (407)365-6385

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:03:15 -0300
Subject: Performance Chapter 

   
>>>>>>>     Are there any members of the Oldsmobile Performance Chapter on
the 
     list? If so how do you like the chapter? What are the benefits to 
     joining? (newsletter, discounts etc.) I sent a letter to the address 
     posted on Bryceman's page (Springfield Ohio) and never heard anything 
     back. So I was very curious if the chapter was still in operation.
     
     -Michael Calvo
     mcalvo@hologic.com
     
     '68 Cutlass Supreme
     '70 442 W30 4 speed<<<<<<<<<<

I've been a member since the mid 80's.  At one time there were ~2,000
members.  Now it's about 2-300.  They also almost split from OCA since the
then officers didn't want to admit that 64-72 Cutlass/442s were becomming the
backbone of OCA.  They stayed part of OCA and now Carol and Jim Hosey are
influential in OCA.  FYI they essentially kept the Performance Chapter
chugging along in recent years.

There is a new editor of W-Machines, the chapter newsletter.  The last issue
was gangbusters with a lot of excellent info on the '66 model year.  Included
copies of spec sheets, spotting tips, W-30 explanation for '66, etc.  The
newsletter essentially need material from folks like us.  They will tell
everyone about your W-machine and or modified Oldsmobiles that OCA doesn't
consider mainstream material for the large portion of the membership.  The
"Cutlass" crowd has more influence but OCA is still mainly oriented to stock
resotrations.

IMO the Performance offers two major benefits.  An annual show for
performance Oldsmobiles separate from the OCA Nats (where I feel they were
less than happy this year to see modified Olds' than in previous years) and
the newsletter.  In a somewhat lesser manner you have access to very
knowledgeable people.

I've stuck with the Chapter for some time.  I guess I have done so because I
know the people who started it and those who run it now.  I've gotten my
moneys worth out of it and it is getting better again.  Give them a try if
you like performance and modified models.  Tell the new editor about your
car, give him some material and the Chapter can come back in a strong
fashion.

BTW, it is open to _all_ year Olds' just like OCA.  There were things like
J-2's before the W era and the Quad-4 after.  They all count.

Bob Handren                               OCA# 7728
'67 W-30 Modified                        '70 SX Convertible

Handren Associates, Inc.             Oviedo, FL
U.S. FDA Regulatory Affairs, 
Laser & Optical Radiation Safety  (407)365-6385

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:03:17 -0300
Subject: Re: ballast resistor ? 

If you are adding a high output coil to your stock ignition system you need
_both_ the original resistor _and_ the one they include.

If you run the HO coil without the added resistor your will burn points
prematurely.  

Which of course begs the question:  "If I put in this hot coil and then have
to partially cripple it with another resistor, what am I really gaining?"

Good question.  IMHO, you gain something but don't expect a huge improvement
in performance. If the stock system was firing the fuel charge in your
engine, so will the hotter coil.

Conversion to HEI is still better and cheap.

Bob Handren                               OCA# 7728
'67 W-30 Modified                        '70 SX Convertible

Handren Associates, Inc.             Oviedo, FL
U.S. FDA Regulatory Affairs, 
Laser & Optical Radiation Safety  (407)365-6385

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:03:59 -0300
Subject: Olds, Racing, Advertising, etc 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>They buy them because they are cute, cheap, 
and get 30 MPG. Don't forget about the government either<<<<<<<<<<<


At least three things are influential in what we have available as new autos
today.

1. Insurance companies that "tax" to death anything with performance.

2. The oil embargos and resultant CAFE standards.

3. Emissions testing makes it cost prohibitive to qualify a different engine
for each GM division.

OTOH, this hasn't stopped LT-1 V-8's, turbo V-6', 4 valve/cylinder Quad 4s,
the Northstar/Aurora V-8 and a few others.  

But, these powerplants are only available in high end autos and there is NO
EXCUSE for uninspired styling.

My '67 442 cost me $3,000 delivered in October '66.  In today's dollars
that's about $12,000.  The comment that we are all probably capable of
affording a new car is true.  But unless someone can steer me to any
manufacturer's car for that $12,000 price with the same kind of above
performance and identifiable styling as my '67 I'll continue to pass thank
you very much.  A standard LT-1 C*maro/F*rebird runs about double that price.
 Since I remember what it was like, I don't buy.  Today's buyer has no
similar point of reference.

Cars today are so expensive people lease them instead of buying.
 Consequently they don't enter the contract with any expectation of ever
paying it off and really owning it.  More than ever before the majority of
potential lessors/buyers look at a car as only short term "ownership", so who
cares if it is uninspiring?  There is little incentive anymore for the few
purchasers left because there are so few inspired designs and performances.

Muscle Car Review about a year ago had an editorial where the author wondered
what kind of car hobby there would be 20 years.  Low-rider Honda CRX's???

Bummer.

Bob Handren                               OCA# 7728
'67 W-30 Modified                        '70 SX Convertible

Handren Associates, Inc.             Oviedo, FL
U.S. FDA Regulatory Affairs, 
Laser & Optical Radiation Safety  (407)365-6385

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:03:57 -0300
Subject: Project: Olds Craft  

Count me, both cars.  Let's keep talking this up and get as many as possible
to participate.

And plugging the list is a great idea too.

A short note indicating the traffic on this list decrying the "C*evy Craft",
in a nice way of course, would work. 

Heck, if they a hundred or so pictures and letters within a week or so, I
don't see how they could ignore us!

Bob Handren                               OCA# 7728
'67 W-30 Modified                        '70 SX Convertible

Handren Associates, Inc.             Oviedo, FL
U.S. FDA Regulatory Affairs, 
Laser & Optical Radiation Safety  (407)365-6385

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:03:56 -0300
Subject: Keys & "JC" clips 

Greg B. wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>I hate to disagree with Bob Handren, but I'm pretty sure that
pulling the 
key out with the switch on *was* a design feature on certain GM ignition 
switches in the early '60s at least. <<<<<<<<<<

Hey, I was wrong once!  But that was a mistake!  ;-)

My comments are based on memory and I am sure a few brain cells have passed
away during my 56 years. But I still _think_ it's a wear "feature".  I drove
my first car, a '56 88 for ~10 years.  It developed the removal feature over
time.  My folks drove several Cadillacs, same.   Being able to remove the key
while the engine is running is a safety hazard.  Of course, some early
designs would cause big class action law suits today. Such as:

My father had a 54 C*evy he used for visiting job sites.  I brought it to a
repair shop for him one morning and the mechanic took a drive with me in the
car to experience whatever it was my Dad was complaining about. As we came
around a corner the car started to accelerate at full throttle.  The mechanic
calmly depressed the clutch, turned off the ignition (key was still in the
lock :-)) and rolled to a stop at the side of the road.  We got out (I was
interested - the beginnings of a love affair with cars). 

He proceeded to pop the hood, reached in, and picked up a small retainer clip
which had fallen off the carb linkage and asked me:

"Hey kid, you know what these things are called?"

"No."

"They're called JC clips because every time one falls off you say Je***
Ch****!!"

                                       :-0

Our recollections of old cars tend to overlook little design warts like that.
 Of course, I am sure no Oldsmobile ever had such design "failures"!!


Bob Handren                               OCA# 7728
'67 W-30 Modified                        '70 SX Convertible

Handren Associates, Inc.             Oviedo, FL
U.S. FDA Regulatory Affairs, 
Laser & Optical Radiation Safety  (407)365-6385

------------------------------

From: Paul Martin <paul@dtm.bc.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:45:39 -0300
Subject: Re: (LONG) Olds, Racing, Advertising, etc

        I introduced myself last week and decided not to mention 
My daily drivers (because they were not GM products). I was 
inspired by some of the comments subsequent to John Rocks 
retirement and some thought provoking feedback from members of 
this group.
        I agree GM spend lots of money on marketing and then 
ignores all of it.
        As a Canadian I am puzzled why Oldsmobile doesn't sell 
its Bravada or Silliuote(sic) in Canada. I am a loyal Oldsmobile person 
who stopped buying in 1987 because Oldsmobile no longer offered a 
product to meet my needs. I would buy the new van or SUV because 
they are Oldsmobiles,but in their wisdom they wont be sold in 
Canada.
        I have not tried the Aurora yet although several friends 
have them and are quite pleased. In looking at them I am not 
convinced the overall size justifies a four door. Also why 
doesn't Olds spread thet great engine arround and offer it in 
other product lines. I could get used to the idea of a cutlass 
based 2 door with that engine, A modern day 442. I know they want   
to see orders for 100,000 before they consider it.
        I am in the market for a new vehicle now ,but I am 
totally uninspired by what is out there,from anybody.
        We can only hope GM doesn't screw up and use Olds 100th 
birthday as its wake.

Paul Martin
71 442 W-30
71 442 w-30 conv
70 442 w-30 coupe
72 Hurst Olds Hdt
Daily drivers (2)
paul@dtm.bc.ca

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:01:42 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds, Racing, Advertising, etc

BobH592058@aol.com wrote:
> 
> ... there is NO EXCUSE for uninspired styling.

Thank you.

> Muscle Car Review about a year ago had an editorial where the author 
> wondered what kind of car hobby there would be 20 years.  Low-rider 
> Honda CRX's???
> 
> Bummer.

Sad.   :(

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: "Graham Stewart" <graham.stewart@utoronto.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:02:59 -0300
Subject: Re: The EGR system on 403's- Complaint (and solution)

> These can go to the vacuum advance on some vehicles, and some have other
> sadistic uses for this line, I guess.
> --One port will show no vacuum at idle or off-idle, but will increase
vacuum
> with rpm.  This is the venturi vacuum.  EGR goes here.  

> >Anyone else on this list have good luck tuning a smog system to work
well on
> >a modified motor at less than WOT?
>       Charley Buehner 

When I got my 74 Ninety-Eight (455), all the orininal vacuum/smog equipment
was intact and it ran very poorly (poor idle, little power).  After
figuring out all the lines and their purposes (with the help of the service
manual) I removed the Distributor Thermal Vacuum Switch.  The system was
intended (as best  I could tell), to only allow vacuum at idle to the
distributor when engine temperatures were high (above 220).  Otherwise, the
distributor got no vacuum at idle (and seemed to get little advance at
other times either).  There was also a vacuum reducer valve in there
somewhere as well as a valve to prevent vacuum from going to the EGR when
the engine is cold.   Anyway, I removed all this and ran the vacuum
straight to the distributor from the manifold source.  Result: engine ran
great.  Smooth idle and good low end power which it didn't have before.  I
didn't notice much effect with the EGR disconnected or connected, so it was
probably not working or working perfectly.  BTW, if you remove the Thermal
vacuum switch you have an excellent location for a temperature gauge sensor
(allows both a gauge and an idiot light to be installed).

Graham Stewart
Toronto, Canada
graham.stewart@utoronto.ca

------------------------------

From: Kevin Wong <yu135008@yorku.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:08:11 -0300
Subject: Re: The EGR system on 403's- Complaint (and solution)

> >I finally determined that the rough-running engine was caused by the EGR
> >valve kicking in as soon as I opened the throttle past idle.
> 
> As far as I can guess from here, you've got the EGR plugged in to the wrong
> port.  You're feeding it ported vaccuum (manifold vacuum at off-idle and

All the EGR vacuum routings I've seen indicate that the EGR valve should
be connected to a ported vacuum source.

> ~should~ get.  I've got a feeling your EGR valve is closing at WOT, (low
> vacuum) when it ~should~ be fully open.  This port is often a source of

I think Bob is correct!  There should be NO EGR operation at WOT.  I
wonder what type of EGR valve is on that 403.  Is it the back pressure
type where exhaust back pressure is used to help modulate the amount of
EGR flow?
 
Kevin Wong

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:14:42 -0300
Subject: Re: No more great cars(not really olds related)

Greg Beaulieu wrote:
> 
> ... the level of standard equipment surely must add lots to the price 
> of a vehicle these days.  
Yupper!

> Not saying we all want to go back to that, but I think that a reduced
> equipment level might help the sticker shock problem a little. 

Now, there's a concept.

> Think about it: an Aurora-powered C/S with vinyl buckets, manual 
> windows and locks, nice tires and suspension, maybe a sound system... 
> think that would sell?

Of course it would.  But the conventional (corporate) wisdom is that 
there is no market for such a car.  Since they don't produce them, nobody 
buys them.  A self-fulfilling prophecy.  "See" they say. 

Who would buy a 60ish sports car.  Nobody!  So they did't build them.
Does Miata ring a bell?  They sold them by the bucketful.

Build that Aurora-powered C/S with crank windows, Olds.  Or have you 
simply lost interest in kicking Ford's butt?

The 66 Toro and MIke


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:34:10 -0300
Subject: Re: (LONG) Olds, Racing, Advertising, etc

Paul Martin wrote:
> 
> As a Canadian I am puzzled why Oldsmobile doesn't sell
> its Bravada or Silliuote(sic) in Canada. 

No doubt some marketing-weenie decided that Canadians don't buy trucks.

> I am a loyal Oldsmobile person who stopped buying in 1987 because 
> Oldsmobile no longer offered a product to meet my needs. 

Join the club, pal.

> I could get used to the idea of a cutlass based 2 door with that 
> engine, A modern day 442. I know they want to see orders for 100,000 
> before they consider it.

Why not run it up the flagpole?  Show it as a concept car?  Whne it comes 
back from the car shoes with drool all over maybe they'll get the 
message.  (but probably not).

> I am in the market for a new vehicle now ,but I am totally uninspired 
> by what is out there,from anybody.

And me.

The 66 Toro and Mike (who newest car was built 12 years ago)


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Paul Martin <paul@dtm.bc.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:16:16 -0300
Subject: Olds, Racing, Advertising, etc

        Interesting point on CAFE ratings and new Vehicles. The 
auto MFRS achieved thiergoal by building lighweight fuel 
efficient disposable cars for people who were so fed up with the 
industry ,they bought them ,did no maintenance and threw them 
away after 60,000 miles.
        Now consider the big three cant keep up with truck 
production. I believe the Chevy Suburban gets less than 10MPG and 
the Fords and Dodges are no better. So what gives here. Are these 
vehicles exempt from CAFE standards. If GM terminates RWD car 
production in Arlington to convert to truck production because so 
many customers want those bruisers (I like them too,just cant 
justify paying $44,000 for a truck). Seems to me the requlations 
have lots of loopholes so the MFRS can get around them. They make 
the cars unappealing and the trucks appealing because they can 
built them with less govt interference. People are buying trucks 
because a) they have power B) room C) rear wheel drive. So did 
the vehicles we remember fondly.

paul@dtm.bc.ca

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:50:08 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds, Racing, Advertising, etc

Paul Martin wrote:
> 
> Seems to me the requlations have lots of loopholes so the MFRS can get 
> around them. They make the cars unappealing and the trucks appealing 
> because they can built them with less govt interference. 

Ah, but *BUSINESS* uses trucks -- people use cars.  So government, not 
about to piss off business, put the bite on passenger cars and left the 
trucks alone.  You wouldn't expect big business to have to live with the 
same set of rules as the rest of us, do you?

> People are buying trucks because a) they have power B) room C) rear 
> wheel drive.  So did the vehicles we remember fondly.

True, true.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: gibson@webgate.net
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:38:28 -0300
Subject: New Subscriber (71 442)

     Hello to all.  My name is Gerald Gibson, I own a 1971 442 with all the 
toys(a/c p/w etc..).  I have had it for almost three years.  It's been mostly 
disassembled for the majority of that time.  The urge has finally gotten 
strong 
enough to start redoing it(been doing another car meanwhile)
     Does anyone on this mailing list have a webpage, or can suggest a good 
one 
for 442's?  Thanks in advance for any help anyone can give.

                       Gerald Gibson
                       gibson@webgate.net

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:22:32 -0300
Subject: Re: Blah-Blah-Woof-Woof (Rant Mode On!)

Greg Beaulieu wrote:
> 
> That's interesting stuff from "Heidi". I'm wondering if anyone had the
> same reaction as I did to it: typical big-organization public relations
> spin-doctoring, containing zero credibility and an unknown but 
> presumably low amount of accuracy. 

Just for laughs, I stripped off all references to you and forwarded the 
text to Heidi-the-Olds (I picture a large viking woman with horns).

We'll see...

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:05:34 -0300
Subject: Re: New Subscriber (71 442)

gibson@webgate.net wrote:
> 
> Does anyone on this mailing list have a webpage, or can suggest a good 
> one for 442's?  Thanks in advance for any help anyone can give.

How does http://www.442.com/ sound, Gerald?

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:52:24 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds, Racing, Advertising, etc 

Exactly!  Unfortunately CAFE has been creeping into trucks, SUVs, etc as 
well.  
Sigh.

David Brown          OCA #27978         (312) 702-9157
    Check out: www.442.com      www.oldsmobile.com
               FAQ version 2.0 due soon!

- ----------
<snip>
        Now consider the big three cant keep up with truck 
production. I believe the Chevy Suburban gets less than 10MPG and 
the Fords and Dodges are no better. So what gives here. Are these 
vehicles exempt from CAFE standards. 
<snip>
People are buying trucks 
because a) they have power B) room C) rear wheel drive. So did 
the vehicles we remember fondly.

paul@dtm.bc.ca

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:14:06 -0300
Subject: Re: The EGR system on 403's- Complaint (and solution) 

>All the EGR vacuum routings I've seen indicate that the EGR valve should
>be connected to a ported vacuum source.
>
>> ~should~ get.  I've got a feeling your EGR valve is closing at WOT, (low
>> vacuum) when it ~should~ be fully open.  This port is often a source of
>
>I think Bob is correct!  There should be NO EGR operation at WOT.  I
>wonder what type of EGR valve is on that 403.  Is it the back pressure
>type where exhaust back pressure is used to help modulate the amount of
>EGR flow?
> 
The WOT thing is probably right for performance.  I should have worded that
as "near WOT"  I may stand corrected.  Then again, at WOT, there is an
equally high preignition problem, which is calmed by the EGR, so that is a
performance question that each individual would want to deal with on their
own, so I can still hold my position. On pure fundamentals, I think the
venturi vaccuum port is much more suitable for EGR.  Some makes have the EGR
system fed off a ported vaccuum source, but they also have other lines
controlling and modulating the valve.  I'd venture to bet that one of these
control lines is a vv source.  I'm operating on pure theory here, I don't
have any routing schematics handy, but that's the way I'd expect to have the
system set up.  EGR operates on a basis of more RPM, more EGR.  The venturi
vaccuum source will give such a relationship.  Strict ported will give a
large vac. source at low off idle, and then drop, and then slowly start to
rise a bit, depending on acceleration conditions.  So, when you mash the gas
down, the EGR pops open for a moment, then closes, then may or may not open
slightly as throttle is reduced.  This would give one heck of a stumble, I'm
sure.  Vacuum delay valves, thermal vacuum switches, etc, can help control
this situation, but it would likely be a jumbled mass of hoses, etc.  
     I've had some people confuse ported and manifold vacuum terminology
before.  They are under the impression that any port on the intake manifold
is manifold vaccuum (true) and that any port on the carb is ported vaccuum
("ported thru the carb, right?")  Don't make this assumption.  I spent about
twenty minutes with a guy two weeks ago who had that assumption, and man,
was his car messed up!  The three vaccuum sources (manifold, ported, and
venturi) can all be found on the carb, so don't let this be a source of
confusion.
     Now that ~that's~ out of the way, we can begin the true, EGR vaccuum
source flame war!  :) (Well, OK, maybe it's not that big of an issue!)
Anyone else have any thoughts or views on the system?  I've given my
opinions on what's right and wrong, and I actually have been wrong before ;)
Hell, I can't even spell vacuum right.  I just looked it up, and low and
behold there's only one "c" in it!  I'll use this little disclaimer as an
excuse not to go back and correct them all!  :)
     Sometime by this weekend I'll probably go fool with the Toronado and
see what drivability problems I get with different EGR vac. sources, just
for fun...
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:14:09 -0300
Subject: Re: New Subscriber (71 442) 

>     Hello to all.  My name is Gerald Gibson, I own a 1971 442 with all the 
>toys(a/c p/w etc..).  I have had it for almost three years.  It's been mostly 
>disassembled for the majority of that time.  The urge has finally gotten
strong 
>enough to start redoing it(been doing another car meanwhile)
>     Does anyone on this mailing list have a webpage, or can suggest a good
one 
>for 442's?  Thanks in advance for any help anyone can give.

     Whoa, do I get to be the first???  Ya better check out www.442.com
It's the bible for Olds.  You can also check out
http://www.3rdplanet.com./~lamackey/hurst_hp.html and
http://www.3rdplanet.com./~lamackey/442club.html
     I haven't been there for a while, but I think he had some cool stuff.
If you're bored you can check mine, too, but you won't find much about your
car in there.

     Oh, yeah, and welcome aboard!  We all have tons of fun here....
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:16:11 -0300
Subject: Re: New Subscriber (71 442) 

>
>How does http://www.442.com/ sound, Gerald?
>
>The 66 Toro and Mike
>
     Dammit, he beat me to it.  Oh, well, I was first on ~my~ computer, at
least!  He must have hit the send key faster...  It's all in reaction time,
ya know!   :)
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: Dave Isho <davei@concentric.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:14:32 -0300
Subject: Re: New Subscriber (71 442) 

At 09:05 PM 10/17/96 -0300, you wrote:
>gibson@webgate.net wrote:
>> 
>> Does anyone on this mailing list have a webpage, or can suggest a good 
>> one for 442's?  Thanks in advance for any help anyone can give.
>
>How does http://www.442.com/ sound, Gerald?
>
>The 66 Toro and Mike
>
>
Couldn't have asked for a better set-up for that answer than that one!!

 >Dave Isho --- davei-2@mail.idt.net
     >67 Cutlass CS Convertible...up on jackstands again
				  but not for long now...

------------------------------

From: Paul Elosge <elosge@eco.twg.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:27:21 -0300
Subject: Re: No more great cars(not really olds related)

  Greg Beaulieu (ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca) writes:

> the level of standard equipment surely must add lots to the price
> of a vehicle these days. 

Recently I've been hearing a series of Honda commercials extolling the
virtues of simplicity on their Accords, and implying something bad
about those big old gimmicky American cars of years gone by. Yet by
almost any measure the cars that came to mind (big 1960's luxury cars)
pale in comparision to a current Honda on the level of gimmickry. I
was riding in my 1965 Imperial, surely one of the top end luxury cars
of the period, when I heard one of these commercials on the radio. I
thought about what it had compared to a current Honda... There were
only two items I could think of that my Imperial had that a Honda
doesn't: 1) power vent windows, and 2) three cigarette lighters.
Obviously these two items are unique to the era. Otherwise a Honda far
exceeds my Imperial in complexity. So much for their simplicity angle!

My first car, a 1966 Olds F-85, was unbelievably spartan compared to
today's cars. A simple base club coupe, with three options: 1) V-8
engine, 2) Jetaway automatic, 3) AM radio. Manual steering, brakes,
windows, door locks. Rubber floor mats rather than carpeting. No rear
seat armrests. No sound insulation to speak of. No wheel covers, just
those little hubcaps. No gimmicks. It just got the job done, and
rather well with that Rocket 330 V-8.

A little later my grandfather got a 1970 Plymouth Duster. It was even
more spartan. It had no options! Base price = total price! Slant 6, 3
speed manual trans, manual steering, brakes, and everything else. No
radio! A windshield washer you stepped on to pump water. Kind of made
my F-85 seem like a luxury car!

Overall, I think the mandantory government safety and pollution
features are relatively minor cost factors compared to what
manufacturers have added with comfort/convenience features. And I
think they were largely forced on this by market pressures. The
Japanese manufacturers in particular kept raising the ante by adding
more and more standard equipment to cars. At first I could see the
value in this, since American manufacturers often nickeled and dimed
you to death on some very basic items (like carpeting and tinted
glass). Eventually this escalation of features got completely out of
hand. I remember seeing a little while back people disparaging the
Dodge Neon for not having power windows available. My God, this is an
entry level car!

At times I wonder if people ever consider why they are struggling on
their incomes. Maybe there is a reason why! And it's not just cars, it
many other parts of our lives also. Look at the escalation in the
average house size and features since the 1960's. Why some of today's
bathrooms rival in size the living rooms of years gone by!

- - Paul Elosge (elosge@eco.twg.com)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:28:01 -0300
Subject: Re: Project: Olds Craft  

>A short note indicating the traffic on this list decrying the "C*evy Craft",
>in a nice way of course, would work. 

OK, here's a question to all on the list.  We're trying to make this an Olds
Craft thing, but I am equally pi***d that they never have the other real
cars in there, Buicks and Pontiacs.  For those of us that may have some of
these in the garage (or street, or front yard...) can we include those?
They're not Olds, so I'm looking for thoughts here.  We might have to change
it to BOP Craft, tho.  Heck, I'd actually be plum happy if we could just
change it to "Anything ~BUT~ Chevy/Mustang/Camaro Craft"
     What do you all think?  Any others have the Sister cars that they are
proud of, too?
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: "Graham Stewart" <graham.stewart@utoronto.ca>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:17:26 -0300
Subject: Re: ABBA vs. New Oldsmobile Symbol

> When I first got Big Red, the AM/FM stereo (non original, of course) that
was
> in it *only* picked up the local Oldies station -- spooky, in a Stephen
King
> way...
> Tim (Thinking P'haps He Shoulda Named Big Red "Christine") Churchill

Yes ... In a way that problem is solved if you have an 8-track ... If you
only play 8-track tapes, you're just about guaranteed to only be playing
music that was current to your 70s car.  Or earlier, of course.  I did that
in my Ninety-Eight until the 8-track stopped working.  I'll get it fixed
one day.  In the meantime, 8-tracks are cheap at garage/rummage sales, so
you can stock up on all those "great bands".    CDs are another story
altogether ... they always sound "changed" somehow from the vinyl versions
.. 

The new Olds symbol is also really vague.  Just like the toyota and mazda
symbols, as someone else said, you don't know what it is.  The same with
the car names: vague, undetermined, and meaningless.  Nothing like Cutlass,
or Wildcat, or Grand Fury ... those cars at least had names with some guts.
 I suppose the Omega summed it up, in a way: last of the line.

Graham (8-track mind) Stewart
Toronto, Canada
graham.stewart@utoronto.ca

------------------------------

From: VUBS79A@prodigy.com (MR DREW A DURIGAN)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:47:03 -0300
Subject: Olds, Racing, Advertising, etc 

>        Now consider the big three cant keep up with truck 
>production. I believe the Chevy Suburban gets less than 10MPG and 
>the Fords and Dodges are no better. So what gives here. Are these 
>vehicles exempt from CAFE standards.

Bingo!!

In other words, due to governmental regulations, GM can no longer 
build RWD, durable V-8 cars that are both safe and relatively fuel-
efficient (My '77 Cutlass, 350-4V, got 22 on the highway; my '78 
Regency 98, 403-4V, got 20; my '79 Cutlass, 260-2V, got 24)...but 
they CAN still build Suburbans that get 14-15MPG.  Yeah, okay...makes 
sense to me!

- -Drew in Sunny Central Florida-

------------------------------

From: VUBS79A@prodigy.com (MR DREW A DURIGAN)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:24:41 -0300
Subject: Internet Message  

>Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
>      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
>      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner


Hey...I worked with a guy at a radio station in Colorado who once 
worked at KOJM in Havre.

(It related somehow!)  <g>

- -Drew in Sunny central Florida-

------------------------------

From: gibson@webgate.net
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:11:11 -0300
Subject: 442 Sites and decode

     Thanks alot to all who responded about the sites.  I was also wondering 
if 
there is anyone who can do decodes, I've seen people it on other mailing 
lists. 
 If anyone could I would greatly appreciate some info on my car.  The VIN is 
as 
follows -

     344871M153238  VIN
     D2234-66896-21127  RIN

     Once again, thanks in sdvance for any and all help.

                  Gerald Gibson
                  gibson@webgate.net

------------------------------

From: Dave Isho <davei@concentric.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:36:50 -0300
Subject: Re: 442 Sites and decode 

At 06:11 PM 10/17/96 -0300, you wrote:
>     Thanks alot to all who responded about the sites.  I was also
wondering if 
>there is anyone who can do decodes, I've seen people it on other mailing
lists. 
> If anyone could I would greatly appreciate some info on my car.  The VIN
is as 
>follows -
>
>     344871M153238  VIN
>     D2234-66896-21127  RIN
>
Check out Drew Senko's home page at http://members.gnn.com/senko/vin .
Dave Isho
D & S Limousine
and Sedan Service

------------------------------

From: r_mullen@Merck.Com (R Mullen)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:53:00 -0300
Subject: Quad 4 vs '67 442

R4C442 wrote:
> So they said the particular was that the Quad-4 would outrun a 442 from 
0-60! I >replied "NOT MINE, ITWON'T!!! " and promptly challenged them 
>anytime..anywhere!

Way to kick corporate weenie ass, man!!  I hope that you really ragged on 
'em for trying to perpetrate that hoax on the buying public.  Did they 
honestly think you would send your ride to California so that some a**wipe 
from Olds' ad agency could flog on it without you being there???!!?  I doubt 
the moron in charge of that campaign had ever driven a rear wheel drive 442. 
 You should have offered to run the Quad 4 with your parking brake on.  At 
least that way, as you crossed the finish line first, the Quad 4 would have 
still been in the camera frame!!
Scott Mullen
'70 442 (also faster than a Quad 4)

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:48:59 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Project: Olds Craft  

     No, I don't have any Buick or Pontiac cars, but my feeling are about 
     the same as yours.
     
     Do we want to possibly involve other mailing lists in this?  Maybe we 
     can get a real effort going here.  I know a few people on the Buick 
     gn-ttype list I could contact, but I don't know if there's a general 
     Buick or Pontiac list.
     
     Tom L.

______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Project: Olds Craft 
Author:  oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca at INTERNET
Date:    10/17/96 2:35 PM


>A short note indicating the traffic on this list decrying the "C*evy Craft", 
>in a nice way of course, would work. 
     
     OK, here's a question to all on the list.  We're trying to make this 
     an Olds Craft thing, but I am equally pi***d that they never have the 
     other real cars in there, Buicks and Pontiacs.  For those of us that 
     may have some of these 

------------------------------

From: Bob Valentine <ravalent@liii.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:30:48 -0300
Subject: Re: No more great cars(not really olds related)

On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Greg Pruett wrote:

> What's truly depressing is that I was born in `77.

   I'm not much better, born in '72 - I can barely remember my parents 
buying premium LEADED gas, and learing how to change the points in my 
mom's 69 Chevelle (307/Powerglide).

> that GM is becomming stagnent.  There are no great road cars anymore.  My
> `72 wagon with a good set of tires and shocks is just as stable on the
> highway at 110 as it is at 40.  It has power in reserve even running at that
> speed.  That can't be said of the majority of cars on the road built since

    Yes, and what's ever better is my '72 Cutlass with over 150k on the 
original 350 got equal or better gas mileage traveling fully loaded from 
home to school (NYC -> Syracuse, NY) than any of my winter rats.  My 
conclusion is that a partly loaded V8 gets better mileage than a 4-holer 
running at 90% throttle.

> concerned with push button 4WD for the 10 days out of the year that snow is
> actually sticking to the roads and they need to go rent a video.   It's

   I think someone else said it already, but I don't think it's the 4WD 
that people want - since you can't buy a *car* that can carry anything 
more than 4 people and some luggage these days.   I have a 21' boat - 
can't tow that with a mid-size FWD car since it has no frame to attach a 
strong hitch to, much less would the trans hold up to pulling a 4500lb 
boat/trailer combo.

  Know what?  My '83 Delta 88 (307/TH350), my 88 Grand Fury (318/TF904), 
and my '71 Olds (350/TH400) all do it just fine.  Instead of 20mpg around 
town I get 14-15.  On the highway I average(d) 23-27 in all of the above 
cars.  
I guess I'm supposed to buy 2 new cars - one to get around town, and one 
to tow my boat.  NOT!   *IF* I had to buy a new car, I'd end up buying a 
truck with a simular power train to my current cars, and still enough 
headroom for my 6'4" size.  ;^>

> Well I've rambled enough.  Jeez you guys need to get a gong for me.

   CC: me there.   What this really comes down to, IMHO, is that *GREAT* 
cars are no longer bought, but rather they're *BUILT*.  I'm sure this 
same discussion happened in '73 when hotrodders couldn't drive a 450hp 
11:1 4-speed car (that barely idled) off the showroom floor.
    
> Greg Pruett
> `72 Vista-Cruiser  

                     -->   Bob Valentine  <--  
                    --> ravalent@liii.com  <--
        "Experience varies directly with equipment ruined"

------------------------------

From: Kurt Heinrich <old442@erols.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 21:37:02 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds, Racing, Advertising, etc

Chris Sparks wrote:
> 
> 
>       Does anyone know of any specs for the 68 442 in terms of 0-60, max 
speed,
>       etc?  I would sure like to know.

The only thing I can find on the '68 442 is from Car Life:
0-60  7.0     1/4 mile  15.13 @ 92.2     top speed 115
This was done with an auto and 3.42:1 rear

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@sequent1.providence.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:01:51 -0300
Subject: Re: The EGR system on 403's- Complaint (and solution) 

At 05:15 AM 10/17/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>I finally determined that the rough-running engine was caused by the EGR
>>valve kicking in as soon as I opened the throttle past idle.
>
>As far as I can guess from here, you've got the EGR plugged in to the wrong
>port.  You're feeding it ported vaccuum (manifold vacuum at off-idle and
>above) when it ~should~ be getting venturi vaccuum (increasing vacuum with
>rpm and throttle position)  The more you step on it, the more vacuum it
>~should~ get.  I've got a feeling your EGR valve is closing at WOT,
[snip]

It is hooked up to ported vacuum, but that's the factory setup. I haven't
mapped out the vacuum ports on the Q-jet, but I'm certain that the EGR is
not supposed to be functioning at WOT (why I'm certain, I don't know, but I
am certain that I'm certain about that- ok, enough epistemology...).

I'm also not sure whether the EGR is the backpressure type or not (there are
only two channels at the EGR port; does that make a difference?); it is the
original, as far as I can tell, and is definitely not sticking. I can't find
any specs on what vacuum level it is supposed to open it, so I can't test it
with my vacuum pump. I suppose a variable-opening design, which only opened
under moderate vacuum or above, say, 2000rpm, might work; how to do that,
however, on a non-computer car, is another question.

I think the problem is especially acute on the 403's, because the mixture
under part throttle at low rpms in that huge bore can't be all that
homogenous. I'd imagine just about every 403 faces this problem, since the
majority were installed in full-size cars with 2.56 gears that probably
never exceeded 1500rpm in everyday driving.

I'd also like to make the throttle-response more linear, rather than having
60% of the power come on in only the last 10% of throttle travel. I'm going
to try a different vacuum break for the air valve, as I think the factory
one has too much dampening (tuned to avoid a bog, the secondaries don't kick
in for about a second-and-a-half; which seems like forever when you're
merging...).

Barring that, I may be putting my Holley 3310 carb on to see how that works;
yeah, there's the legendary flat spot, and ultimate power output may be the
same, but getting 50% of my power at 50% throttle is very appealing to me
(besides, my current Q-jet flattens out anyway...).

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Std. Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
- - 1978 Electra Limited Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: Katana72@aol.com
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:35:50 -0300
Subject: "pull the key option" 

I dunno, but I kind of like that option in my '72 Cutlass. I've found it very
handy on the cold Minnesota winter mornings, where I could go out, start the
car, let it warm up, and do whatever else with my keys. Or, I could always
jerk the keys out to use my little flashlight that is on my key ring. Of
course, if a person prefers, I suppose that they could alway go and buy a new
cylinder for their ignition. From what I've been told, there's a retaining
device in the cylinder that gets worn and fails. 

Katana72         It's NOT YOUR Daddy's Oldsmobile !!!!      Hastings, MN

------------------------------

From: Katana72@aol.com
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:45:26 -0300
Subject: "It's NOT your Daddy's Oldsmobile" 

It's NOT your Daddy's Oldsmobile and never will be. That's not to bad for me,
maybe for you. It may be a Cutlass S model, not a 442, but it will outperform
any stock 442!!!! SMALL BLOCK POWER 4 EVER !!!!!!!!!!!  By the way, it goes
into the body shop this winter. Purple metallic is at the top of my list.
It's not stock anymore and probably won't ever be. Any suggestions on a more
suitable color choice will be considered and appreciated. FYI - I've already
ruled out the stock gold color, silver is possible, black metallic could be
yet considered, but I don't want it to look like any other Cutlass I've seen,
especially the original color ones. I like those just fine, but a car usually
reflects the personality of it's owner and I am a little bit different than
the rest!!!!!


Katana72        It's NOT your Daddy's Oldsmobile!!!!!!!!     Hastings, MN 

------------------------------

From: Dave Isho <davei@concentric.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:00:22 -0300
Subject: Re: No more great cars(not really olds related) 

At 09:30 PM 10/17/96 -0300, you wrote:

>    Yes, and what's ever better is my '72 Cutlass with over 150k on the 
>original 350 got equal or better gas mileage traveling fully loaded from 
>home to school (NYC -> Syracuse, NY) than any of my winter rats.  My 
>conclusion is that a partly loaded V8 gets better mileage than a 4-holer 
>running at 90% throttle.
>
Ditto, I have a 92 Lincoln Town Car with a 4.6 Liter V8 with 160K on the
clock that still gets 20 MPG combined and 24-25 on the highway. And it's
used as a for-hire car so it gets started at 5-6:00 AM and does not get shut
off until 8-9:00 PM sometimes later than that. I even average 60K miles per
year. Try that with a rice burner. The last one I traded had 375K on it and
I had never touched the engine except for normal servicing.
Dave Isho
D & S Limousine
and Sedan Service

------------------------------

From: Barnacle Bill <wreilly@acad.bryant.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:37:28 -0300
Subject: need toro info

	I was wondering if you toro guys could give me some information 
on  this type of olds.  A friend of mine is selling her '85 toro caliente and 
I am condsidering buying it for a winter car so I can store my '85 
cutlass.  I do a lot of driving as I deliver pizzas for the local pizza 
joint.  I was wondering if the front wheel drive handles or gets better 
traction in the snow than my rwd cutlass.
	I know I'm setting myself up for some biased opinions here but 
I'd like to hear them anyway.
	The toro has under 90k miles on the engine, a semi-new tranny 
with under 10k miles(not sure of this milage), leather interior, 
sunroof, new exhuast and brakes.  Just needs a heater core ($300-400 she 
says).  Her boyfriend's father is a mechanic and has been servicing this 
car for years and she says it's in great running condition.  I don't 
doubt that, since my cutlass is in great shape also.  Asking price $1000.
	Let me know what you think.  Thanks.
I'm also in on the Car Craft deal.  I wrote them a letter a month ago 
asking for more Olds in the mag.  I doubt we'll see it unless our plan 
goes through.

Bill Reilly  wreilly@acad.bryant.edu
'85 Cutlass Supreme
Maybe an '85 Toro in the future.

------------------------------

From: VUBS79A@prodigy.com (MR DREW A DURIGAN)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:20:42 -0300
Subject: Saturday Night Cruise at Old Town 

>Hey Drew,

>Welcome to the list!  What part of central Florida do you live in?  


Orlando-east side.  Moved down here a couple of months ago from Ocala 
(horse farm country!)


>There's a few people on the list from central FL.  Bob Handren 
(Oviedo), Mike
>Frederick (Tampa) and me (Melbourne).  There may be more, I don't 
know.
>There's a car show in Tampa this weekend.  A few of us are getting 
together
>over there on Saturday.  Some kind of national event.  Should be fun.
  If
>you're interested, I can get more info. 


I'd love to, but I'll probably be working.  Hey...wait a minute...do 
you ever cruise Old Town on Saturday nights?  I work weekends at AM-
1220 (WOTS), the little radio station at Old Town that puts on the 
Saturday Night Cruise.

- -Drew in Sunny Central Florida-
  
 1987 Buick Somerset (which is running like $%#@!! at the moment!)

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:01:12 -0300
Subject: Re: Blah-Blah-Woof-Woof 

In a message dated 96-10-17 10:01:49 EDT, you write:

>  The new emblem is a cicle with the newly
>  designed rocket symbol heading in the "right" direction.

Oh, please.  What cutsie college marketing grad thought that one up?

Paul
Heading toward the Chevrolet direction

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:01:19 -0300
Subject: Re: "pull the key option" 

In a message dated 96-10-17 09:11:20 EDT, you write:

> pull the key outta the still running
>  car, quickly unlock the trunk, and get back in the drivers seat in just a
>  coupla secs.

What some people won't do to save the cost of a vacuum trunk release.  Oh,
sorry, that's one of those unnecessary spoil-type options, isn't it? :)

Paul

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:01:24 -0300
Subject: Re: No more great cars(not really olds related) 

In a message dated 96-10-17 14:22:31 EDT, you write:

>  Or have you 
>  simply lost interest in kicking Ford's butt?

But they aren't interested in going after Ford.  Their competition now is
Honda, Toyota, Volvo, Mazda...  And Olds knows they're going to lose "some"
of their old, loyal customers this way.

Paul

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:01:17 -0300
Subject: Re: No more great cars(not really olds related) 

In a message dated 96-10-17 00:11:26 EDT, you write:

> split air temperture 
>  controls,

Ya know, I used to think this was a joke until I bought the Monte and it had
this option.  It really has a temperature difference, much more than I ever
thought it would.  It's almost possible to have A/C on one side and heat on
the other it's that big of a difference.  Haven't you ever ridden with
someone who says "that's enough heat for me" and your still shakin' in your
boots?  Maybe we could figure out a way to modify the Comfortron in your
Toronado (which at the time people probably thought similar things about) and
you'd really like it.

Paul

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:01:21 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds, Racing, Advertising, etc 

In a message dated 96-10-17 09:52:05 EDT, you write:

> I thought that Chevy's logo was a chevron (hence the name Chevrolet).  I
>  could be wrong.

Sorry, the Chevrolet is named for race car driver Louis Chevrolet and the
Bowtie was picked by William C Durant from the wallpaper design in a French
hotel.

Paul
Today's Trivia

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:01:15 -0300
Subject: Re: Replacing Cutlass 

In a message dated 96-10-16 22:50:31 EDT, you write:

> The new Cutlass is a sister to the new Chevy Malibu.  Here are some specs
on
>  the new Malibu:
>  4 door sedan (resembles an Accord)
>  Standard 4 cyl. 2 cam, 2.4L engine (150hp, 155 ft-lb)
>  Opt. 3100cc V6    (155hp, Real big jump in power, hey!, 185 ft-lb)
>  No mention of available manual transmissions, standard is 4 speed auto
>  Auto daytime headlights
>  

Hey everyone

Did you know the new Malibu has the ignition key on the dashboard like they
used to do back before they started installing them in the column?  Wonder if
the Cutlass is that way too?

Paul

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #334
********************************
 
