To:	oldsmobile-digest @ chebucto.ns.ca@INTERNET1
cc:	 
From:	oldsmobile-digest-owner @ chebucto.ns.ca@INTERNET1 @ ABTLAB
Date:	11/26/96 12:42:14 PM
Subject:	oldsmobile-digest V1 #382


oldsmobile-digest        Tuesday, 26 November 1996     Volume 01 :
Number 382


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:18:05 -0400
Subject: Re[4]: My little olds expense list

I'll admit I've only pulled one engine in my life, when I pulled the 455
out of my '70 88.  I used the grade 2 or 3 bolts supplied by the rental
place after being reassured "those bolts will work just fine, they
won't break".

Unbolted trans, motor mounts, etc, hooked two point chain to heads, one
front, one rear, and proceeded to jack motor up.  About 6 inches up, a
bolt breaks, down goes the engine!!  Good thing my help was staying
away from the damn thing.

About $2 worth of grade 8 bolts and another $2-3 for an additional 2
point chain produced a rather boring engine extraction.

For dangerous tasks I believe you have to over engineer and over
compensate. That's why I use more than one jack stand with the jack,
and block the wheels, and usually use some additional solid timbers,
and try not to get too entangled when underneath the car, and check
it's statility frequently.  The only whole car floor lift I trust are
the solid locking type.

Cynical, life is a risk, deal with it, mode on . . .
Buy hey, it's your body, your suffering, your decision.  Just don't
complain to me (not that I'm saying anyone would), or force the
government to ban it, license it or restrict it.  For me, confidence is
not speed and cheapness. Mode off . . .

I take a very serious view and attitude with things that can cause a lot
of harm if not used properly.  Hence the grade 8 bolts.

David Brown   Mailto:dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu
Olds FAQ 2.0 at: http://www.en.com/users/thall/
                 ftp://arl.arizona.edu/lists/olds

- ----------
>Do you really think Gr. 8 bolts are necessary.  If he is lifting with
0.25" >hardware a Gr. 3 (sort of the base standard, non junk hardware;
and usually >about 1/4th the price of Gr. 8) has a shear of about 3000#,
and with 3/8" it >goes to about 6600#.  Even imported, junk absolutely
base Gr. 1 bolts will >be in the 2000# (1/4") to 4000# (3/8) range each. >
>Gr. 8 does have the advantage of bringing these figures to about 6800
for >the 1/4", and 15,000# for the 3/8s. One Gr. 8 x 1/4" bolt will lift
two >442's with driver before failing. > >When you consider that you can
just about lift an entire Cutlass before even >(1 ea 1/4") junker Gr. 1
will shear, you have maybe suggested a bit of >overkill, when one
considers the excess cost of Gr. 8 hardware.

I'd say it really boils down to how much faith you have
in this lower grade equipment.

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:40:31 -0400
Subject: Equals One Aurora Payment

Greg B. wrote:

<<<I picked it up today. Parts, labor, supplies and tax (plus a
provincial inspection that was due and a trans fluid and filter change
that I couldn't be bothered to do myself) totalled just over $600.
Ouch! Now you know why I don't want to add this stuff up!

Greg Beaulieu >>>

Yeah Greg, but it sure beats paying that much every month, and for some
cars, that's the monthly _lease_ price!


"Enjoy the Ride!"

Bob Handren        OCA/OCF# 7728
'67 W-30 Modified     '70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

Handren Associates, Inc.
FDA Medical Device Regulatory Affairs
Laser/Optical Radiation Safety
(407)365-6385

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:40:35 -0400
Subject: Fastest Olds

Well, let's see.  My '67 runs low eights in the 1/4 using a blown 403,
nitrous and a jet assisted take off (JATO) unit I found in the Arizona
desert.  It was laying in the road just before a big hole in the side of
a mesa.

The original owner had inadequate brakes.  Mine uses GM Detroit Diesel
disc brakes with air over oil hydraulics.

:-))

"Enjoy the Ride!"

Bob Handren        OCA/OCF# 7728
'67 W-30 Modified     '70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

Handren Associates, Inc.
FDA Medical Device Regulatory Affairs
Laser/Optical Radiation Safety
(407)365-6385

------------------------------

From: "Graham Stewart" <graham.stewart@utoronto.ca>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:38:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Re[2]: 400 C.I. V8 in 1975???

Just a few specs on the 400 cid V8 from '75 (from "Oldsmobile the
Postwar Years"

- -4 barrel carb
- -7.6:1 compression ratio (!)
- -Horsepower: 185 at 3600 RPM
- -Torque: 310 at 1600 RPM
- -optional in Ninety-Eights and Custom Cruisers

- -the 1975 Olds Service Manual lists it as also being optional in 88s.

Graham Stewart
Toronto, Canada
graham.stewart@utoronto.ca

------------------------------

From: Kurt Heinrich <old442@erols.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:13:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Fastest Olds

BobH592058@aol.com wrote:
>
> Well, let's see.  My '67 runs low eights in the 1/4 using a blown 403,
> nitrous and a jet assisted take off (JATO) unit I found in the Arizona
> desert.  It was laying in the road just before a big hole in the side
of a > mesa. >


I guess I know where you got the JATO, so why bother with the cars
engine???
-
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

You all know about the Darwin Awards - It's an annual honor given to the
person who did the gene
pool the biggest service by killing themselves in the most
extraordinarily stupid way. Last year's winner
was the fellow who was killed by a Coke machine which toppled over on
top of him as he was
attempting to tip a free soda out of it.

And this year's nominee is:

The Arizona Highway Patrol came upon a pile of smoldering metal embedded
into the side of a cliff
rising above the road at the apex of a curve. The wreckage resembled the
site of an airplane crash, but
it was a car. The type of car was unidentifiable at the scene. The lab
finally figured out what it was and
what had happened.

It seems that a guy had somehow gotten hold of a JATO unit (Jet Assisted
Take Off - actually a solid
fuel rocket) that is used to give heavy military transport planes an
extra "push" for taking off from short
airfields. He had driven his Chevy Impala out into the desert and found
a long, straight stretch of road.
Then he attached the JATO unit to his car, jumped in, got up some speed
and fired off the JATO!

The facts as best as coould be determined are that the operator of the
1967 Impala hit JATO ignition at
a distance of approximately 3.0 miles from the crash site. This was
established by the prominent
scorched and melted asphalt at that location. The JATO, if operating
properly, would have reached
maximum thrust within 5 seconds, causing the Chevy to reach speeds well
in excess of 350 mph and
continuing at full power for an additional 20-25 seconds. The driver,
soon to be pilot, most likely would
have experienced G-forces usually reserved for dog-fighting F-14 jocks
under full afterburners,
basically causing him to become insignificant for the remainder of the
event. However, the automobile
remained on the straight highway for about 2.5 miles (15-20) seconds
before the driver applied and
completely melted the brakes, blowing the tires and leaving thick rubber
marks on the road surface,
then becoming airborne for an additional 1.4 miles and impacting the
cliff face at a height of 125 feet
leaving a blackened crater 3 feet deep in the rock.

Most of the driver's remains were not recoverable; however, small
fragments of bone, teeth and hair
were extracted from the crater and fingernail and bone shards were
removed from a piece of debris
believed to be a portion of the steering wheel.

------------------------------

From: Robert Barry <rbarry@sequent1.providence.edu>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:11:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Year One service manuals =(

At 01:41 PM 11/25/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Got my order from Year One.  Those guys need some real salespeople...
> My order was incomplete, but I ordered Tuesday and recieved it
>Thursday.  He shipped it UPS 2-day & only charged me for ground
>shipping...  At any rate, I made the mistake of ordering thier Chassis
>Service Manual reprint.  These are low quality, folks.  The wiring
>diagrams are pretty much worthless.  One wire is labeled "tan", and you
>can't even see it.  Also, all the pictures look like they were
>photocopied on a circa 1980 machine that was low on toner.  I've never
>seen an original service manual, but they've got to be better quality
than >this.  So if it's really important to you, spend the extra money
for an >original copy.

Sorry to hear that. I got my '69 Shop manual from Fusick's, and though
they didn't advertise it as such, it was in fact a Year One reprint
(note on title page to that effect). It was in new condition, and of
good quality print; the only deviation from an original is the fact that
the transmission diagrams are b&w, and thus the oil flow is in a
pattern, rather than in color. The wiring diagrams, however, are just as
good as the original.

So, I guess all you can say is that the quality of Year One reprints
varies, and is _never_ as good as an original. You get what you pay for.

In your case, however, I'd return the Year One manual as defective;
geesh, you should be able to _read_ the book you buy, shouldn't you?

>another 12-bolt non-posi -- all for $300.  Oh, I also ordered a Super
>Poly-Graphite front end kit from PST.  Can't wait to get that! ;)

Let me know how the installation goes; I'm considering the same kit for
my '70 SX. _______________________________________________________ Dr.
Robert Barry  MailTo:RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu Theology Dept,
Providence College, Providence, RI 02918

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:34:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Fastest Olds

BobH592058@aol.com wrote:
>
> My '67 runs low eights in the 1/4 using a blown 403, nitrous and a jet
 > assisted take off (JATO) unit I found in the Arizona desert.  It was
 > laying in the road just before a big hole in the side of a mesa.

HA!  Urban legends that never die!

> The original owner had inadequate brakes.  Mine uses GM Detroit Diesel
 > disc brakes with air over oil hydraulics.

Just make sure nothing internal moves too fast or you'll have
overheating problems.  And watch the heat soak!    ;)

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:50:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Re[4]: My little olds expense list

David Brown wrote:
>
> For dangerous tasks I believe you have to over engineer and over
> compensate.

Excellent advice, Dave.  I've had two jobs in my life that could qualify
 as dangerous: as a lineman for Bell and as an air-mobile electronics
technician in the Air Force.  I learned early on to be careful --
"better safe than sorry" as the saying goes.  Seems obvious but there's
no end to the stories of people who were seriously injured or killed in
stupid and AVOIDABLE accidents.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:57:23 -0400
Subject: Northwest wagon

To Mark Prince - sorry didn t keep private e-mail address - any more
info on the Cutlass Cruiser?  My southwestern guy is agreeable to a
clean Olds wagon - even a Cruiser vs. a V-C.


Let me know if its still avail!!


Thanks much

Lisa Madsen


<color><param>8080,0000,8080</param>Heavy Metal Forever - '67 Delta 88 &
'72 Vista Cruiser

</color>

Please E-Mail me at-----:
<bold><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>Lisa@hotglass.com

</color></bold>

My Web-Page-----:
<bold><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>http://exo.com/~jht/olds/</col
or></bold>

------------------------------

From: Clayton Pierce <zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:24:51 -0400
Subject: statement, and supreme console question

Engineers arguing over the amount of stress that one grade of bolt can
handle over another, with exact figures even!!

I love this list!!  :-)

Can anybody (with that Olds book maybe) tell me how many '84 Cutlass
Supremes (not Calais, not Broughams) were made with the center console
shifter and bucket seats?  Just wondering!

Peace, Goodwill, and Happy Oldsmobilling,
Clayton Pierce,
zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu

------------------------------

From: Clayton Pierce <zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:39:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Fastest Olds  **non-olds content**

I was in the school library reading through an old issue of Motor Trend
(they go back to 196-something).  In the 1970 issue, there was the story
 of an Englisman who was a Rolls Royce lover.  He had several Rolls'
and one without a motor.  Anyway, he was walking around a junkyard when
he spots a big motor.  He buys it and it is the motor from a Spitfire
(the airplane, not the Triumph) which was made by Rolls Royce.  You can
guess what happened!  Anyway he ended up with a HUGE 27 or so liter
(yes, that's 27,000 cc) V (or Inline, don't remember) 12 cylinder.
For some oddball reason, the motor has a redline of only 2500 rpm, of
course, by then, he was doing 200+ mph.  They only claimed 8's in the
1/4 as I recall, but you know what Motor Trend's 1/4 mile times are
like :-)  This was of course for a full frame Rolls, which would weigh
more than my '72 Mercury Marquis Brougham.  The Mercury (which has a
429 (7.0l) runs a best of high 16's stock (according to the '72 issue
of M.T., it only runs 18's or 19's stock).  As for the Rolls, the 1997
Convertible, tips the scales with a curb weight of 5400 lbs!

'nuff for now,
Clayton Pierce,
zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu

On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, Mike Frederick wrote:

> BobH592058@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > My '67 runs low eights in the 1/4 using a blown 403, nitrous and a
jet > > assisted take off (JATO) unit I found in the Arizona desert.
It was > > laying in the road just before a big hole in the side of a
mesa. > > HA!  Urban legends that never die! > > > The original owner
had inadequate brakes.  Mine uses GM Detroit Diesel > > disc brakes
with air over oil hydraulics. > > Just make sure nothing internal moves
too fast or you'll have overheating > problems.  And watch the heat
soak!    ;) > > The 66 Toro and Mike > > > -- > Michael R.
Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated >      Tampa, Florida
Data Translation & Communication >      (813) 210-8649
http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/ > > >

------------------------------

From: WMACHINES@aol.com
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:09:13 -0400
Subject: Polygraphite Bushings PST

In a message dated 96-11-25 14:33:18 EST, you write:

<< Let me know how the installation goes; I'm considering the same kit
for my
 '70 SX. >>

I just put them on my 72 442 W-30 back in May.  The installation
was easy, but messy.  You have to use the graphite grease provided
to make sure that they don't squeak.  My car handles beautifully when
cornering.  But for drag racing, I think I am going back to the OEM
rubbers due to the PST are too stiff.   Just my opinion.

W MACHINES(Mark Prince)

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:24:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Rocket Engine's and axle woe''s...

     Welcome to the list!

     The '85-'87 G bodies only came with 3.73:1 rear gears on the 442
and
     Hurst/Olds.  In addition, these cars have the 8.5" rear end, rather

     than the 7.5" or 8" or whatever it is on the normal cars.  You'll
need
     this rear end to stand up to the abuse of a big block, but the
smaller
     rear might hold up on a small block.  Just to save you the trouble,

     those rear-ends are about as rare as hens teeth, so you're better
off
     looking elsewhere.  I've heard that the Cutlass wagons from the mid

     80's equipped with the towing package also have the 8.5" rear, but
     I've never seen one myself.  I'm not sure of the gearing in these,
but
     it's not uncommon for a towing package to be equipped with 3.23:1
     gears.

     If that tranny is stock, it's not a TH-700.  If it's a 4-speed it's
a
     200-4R.  If rebuilt properly it can handle a hot 350, but you still

     might be pushing it a bit.  In stock form it won't survive.  A
TH350
     would be an easy swap, and a TH400 will require some body
     modifications to fit in there.

     For traction tips on hooking up, etc.  I'd go check out the Buick
     Turbo Regal/GN page.  They offer tips on stiffening the chassis,
and
     using air bags in the rear springs to help traction.

     Go get them rustangs!

     Tom Lentz
     tlentz@teknon.com

------------------------------

From: Ryan Hehn <RYANH@docker.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:58:14 -0400
Subject: G Car Axles & Trannys too!

Steve Ochs wrote:
>
> Twodogs wrote:
> >>I have beeen told that they put 3.73 in the 85-87 g bodies. Did
they, and how > easy >>would they be to find? > > Yes, there was a 3.73
ratio in 83-87 for the Hurst Olds/442 G-body.  It is a > different axle
than the regular Cutlass receives.  The 3.73 is a 8.5" ring gear > while
the rest of the ratios are 7.5".  The Olds 3.73 might be hard to come
by, > but the Monte Carlo SS also used a 3.73 ratio.  It only used a 7
5/8 ring gear > though.  It will fit in a Cutlass. (I know this is
blasphemy to mention a Chevy > axle, but it would be much more
economical to locate and the design is the same > except for ring gear
size). > > Steve - Engineer - GM Powertrain - Transmission Div.
(4T60/65-E) > '87 442 > '76 Cutlass S

Steve, (or anyone that knows!)

Would you able to list how many different axle ratios were avaiable in
the G-bodies? (hope it's not too long)

The reason I'm interested is that I have an 81 Cutlass with a TH200 (I'm
assuming it's a TH200, never actually checked) and I'm not sure what
axle I have.  The transmission has 200k km's (around 125k miles) on it
without any problems.  (knock on woodgrain!) I've heard about a few of
the 81's having a 2.29 rear end.  I'm guessing that was the standard?

My 86 Cutlass has a 200R4 with a 2.73 axle.  This car has 200k km's on
it also.  Had some problems with it really shifting hard into second
under slow acceleration.  Took it to a transmission place and they
charged me $26 to adjust the TV cable.  Still shifts firmly, but no
where near as harsh as it used to be...

One thing I've noticed is that when crusing in 'D' at speeds above 60
km/h (35-40 mph?) I notice 'backlash' when I let off the gas pedal.
Kind of like the feeling you get when you drop a car into low on a steep
grade.  When I cruise around in 'OD' the backlash disappears, even when
the transmission is still in 3rd gear.  Is this how the 200R4 is
supposed to be?

Another 'debate' I'd like some opinions on is whether one should drive
around at city speeds in 'OD' or 'D'.  I've heard that driving in 'OD'
in the city results in the transmission switching between 'D' & 'OD'
excessively.  The argument that driving in 'D' in the city will lessen
wear on the transmission seems reasonable to me.  Is it?

Thanks for any help or comments!

Ryan Hehn
ryanh@docker.com

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:10:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Introduction (fwd)

At 07:39 AM 11/25/96 -0400, you wrote:
>On Mon, 25 Nov 1996, C.R.F. wrote:
>> At 03:11 AM 11/25/96 -0400, you wrote:
>> > I have a 1964 olds F-85
>> >
>> >>convert. about one half restored from ground up.
>> >                ^^^^^^^^  I'll bet that one side looks great, too!
:) >> > >> Naw the front ends done. > >I think you're both wrong... its
being done from the ground up, right? So >I figure he's gotten the body
done from the rockers up to the windows, >which is why he needs the
weatherstrips and such now... ;-) > >Greg Beaulieu
ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada > > I always
wondered what a ground up restoration was about.

Isn't it a pain to paint the car in strips?

The Wiz

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:31:43 -0400
Subject: Re: One Fastner Thought

At 11:14 AM 11/25/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Wizkid observes:
>
>> And one more thought.  Go out to an airport where they still work on
old >> large airliners with reciprocating engines.  See what holds say a
2,000 hp >> engine on.  You will be amazed.  There are usualy 6 or 8
3/8" to 1/2" bolts >> and that is all.  I expect they are Gr. 8, but
you've got 2000 real hp >> hanging on what really looks like it couldn't
possible do the job. > > >Can you say... DC-10s? > >"Boy, these DC-10s
fly nice & quiet!" > >"Maybe it's because both motors fell off the
wings??" > > > >Tim (Real Planes Are Built in Seattle! -- Just Watch Out
for Faulty Wiring >     in the Fuel Tanks) Churchill >------------- >'67
Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red' >'89 Cadillac
Fleetwood, a.k.a. 'Der KinderWagen' >'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next
Car to be Replaced' > > OK guys, aviation wise, Saint Louis, Missouri is
known as "Fighterland U.S.A.," not Long Beach or Seattle either,
although it looks like Seattle might be in the running for the No. 2
spot!

The Wiz

------------------------------

From: Aaron Neumann <neumann.12@osu.edu>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:36:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Rear sway bar question

>The rear axle suspension setup allows the axle to pivot in the
suspension >travel (One side goes up while the other side goes down)
which is also the >same thing that happens on corners.

Well, duuuu!  Anyone knows that :)

The sway bar attaches to the control
>arms to limit the amount they can move ~in relation to each other~

Here's where my confusion set in.  Now I understand...the sway bar is
attached to the chassis and the ends of it are attached to each control
arm. That makes sense.  I'm not sure how I got to thinking the whole
sway bar was isolated on the axle...ahhh, I know.  I've got a plastic
model of a 69 442, and yep, the sway bar isn't located in the correct
spot.  Dang it, AMT/Ertl...I rely on them for quality reproductions, and
this is what I get! ;)

Thanks Charley, Steve, and Loyd for answering my dumb question (upon
hindsight). You cleared that up with amazing clarity.

Aaron

 _____
|  |  |* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
|  |  | Aaron Neumann St. Marys, OH  *
|  |  | neumann.12@osu.edu           *
| /|\ | 72 Delta 88 Royale Conv.     *
|/_|_\|* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *	

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:52:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Fastest Olds

At 02:40 PM 11/25/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Well, let's see.  My '67 runs low eights in the 1/4 using a blown 403,
>nitrous and a jet assisted take off (JATO) unit I found in the Arizona
>desert.  It was laying in the road just before a big hole in the side
of a >mesa. > >The original owner had inadequate brakes.  Mine uses GM
Detroit Diesel disc >brakes with air over oil hydraulics. > >:-)) >
>"Enjoy the Ride!" > >Bob Handren        OCA/OCF# 7728 >'67 W-30
Modified     '70 SX Convertible >Oviedo, FL > >Handren Associates, Inc.
>FDA Medical Device Regulatory Affairs >Laser/Optical Radiation Safety
>(407)365-6385 >

Conceptually, you could dump the JATO for RATO, and save a 1/10 or two,
remove the brakes all-to-gether and get a B52 drag chute, look next to
the hole the JATO came from, and get some more.  Remember disc brakes
drag all the time, the chute concept will only drag when you want it to.

The Wiz

------------------------------

From: kdporter@midwest.net (kdporter)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:31:56 -0400
Subject: Rallye 350 decals

 Anyone know where I can get a complete decal kit for a rallye 350?


kdporter
kdporter@midwest.net

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:59:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Oldsmobile Literature

In a message dated 96-11-25 00:00:38 EST, you write:

> In as much as there are no Viking experts out there, this may be
beating a >  dead horse.  Even though I have noticed a number of
indications that there >  ARE some old car literature types with us. >

Sorry, would have liked to have helped here, but I'm afraid you have
gone a little far out ot my realm.  My current Oldsmobile Showroom Album
collection only goes back to 1951 at this point.  I will be working over
the next few to expand this to the early 40's, maybe the late 30's, but
I don't think I have the desire to go back as far as you are requesting.
All this stuff gets quite expensive, and once I back to where all cars
look like a box on wheels, I don't think I'll be spending the money,
even if it Oldsmobile related.

My sales catalog collection dates back to 1938 for Oldsmobile, and back
a little further for a few other makes.  I will be working on the
Oldsmobile portion in the future to see how far back I can go, depending
on the cost.  I recently ran across a mint '36 deluxe sales brochure in
an antique mall for $30 - that's a bargain!  Hope I can find more of
those!

I used to have lots of owner's manuals for all makes.  Mostly used car
lot "finds".  Got rid of all but the Oldsmobiles a few years ago, as
they were taking up too much room.  Oldest Olds owner's manual is a '50.
Will be working on this area, too, in the coming years.  I could quote
some passages from the owner's manuals, but that got me in trouble
before (remember that, Mike?).

Sorry I can't help you, but if I can help anybody else, please let me
know.

Paul Hartlieb
The book guy - Oldsmobiles a specialty!

------------------------------

From: <ljbeck1@facstaff.wisc.edu>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:09:24 -0400
Subject: Re: 400 C.I. V8 in 1975???

In message Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:25:21 -0400,
  Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>  writes:

> Hold on a second... this got me to looking in my literature and here's
> what I found:
>
> 1965-67 400: 4.00 x 3.98 bore and stroke
> 1968-69 400: 3.87 x 4.25
> 1975 400: 4.12 x 3.75 (option L-65)
> 1977-79 403: 4.35 x 3.39
>
> So... it's not either of the earlier Olds 400's. Any idea what it is?

The bore & stroke measurements you have for the '75 engine are the same
as both Pontiac & Chevy 400 engines.  Personally, I would hope that Olds
would have used Pontiac rather than Chevy 400s.  Don't get me wrong,
there are a lot of good Chevy small blocks out there, but I think the
Pontiac engine was more "fitting" for use in an Olds.  It's an
interesting coincidence that both Chevy & Pontiac 400s used the same
bore & stroke dimensions (though they are vastly different motors in all
other respects!).

Drew

------------------------------

From: mdbarb@whale.st.usm.edu (Melissa Dawn Barberree)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:10:12 -0400
Subject: Re: (RE) Re: Hooker SuperComp.Header's $

   >
> In a message dated 96-11-24 16:15:35 EST, you write:
>
> << >As for Headers, Hooker supercomp 1 and 7/8 headers will go on
without >  >moving your brake lines.  They cost about 319.00 from Super
shops. >  >add another 180.00 for ceramic coating. > >  Summit has
Hooker Super Comp headers for $251.95 a pair "for most >  applications".
Ceramic coating is $175.00. >   >> > > Not for Olds though, Summit and
SuperShop are set at 319.00. > Its not a high volume product, so
expensense is more. > Wmachines > >

Summit $ on hooker's Part#HOK-3202 $423.69, Ceramic coating
Part#HOK-3202-1 $569.69.

Automotive Spec. Acc.Parts,Inc.(ASAP) $ on same Part#HOO-3202 $364.00
Ceramic coated Part#HOO-3202-1 $589.00

Although Summit did match ASAP's price, total cost from Summit was
$403.75 2nd day air.

Thanks for all the info and help, and i hope all of these headers fit
perfectly!

As far as the W-30 intake, it's on my car now and is not for sale.  If I
decide to sell it, y'all will be the 1st to know.

Luke

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@sequent1.providence.edu>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 01:41:26 -0400
Subject: OK, who broke the Listserver...?

One message since 4:00pm? What happened now?
_______________________________________________________
Dr. Robert Barry  MailTo:RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu
Theology Dept, Providence College, Providence, RI 02918

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@sequent1.providence.edu>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 02:06:55 -0400
Subject: Re: OK, who broke the Listserver...?

At 12:41 AM 11/26/96 -0500, you wrote:
>One message since 4:00pm? What happened now?

Ooops, well, I guess it's not broke, since I just got this message back.
Sorry for the accusation.
_______________________________________________________
Dr. Robert Barry  MailTo:RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu
Theology Dept, Providence College, Providence, RI 02918

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 02:26:16 -0400
Subject: Re: OK, who broke the Listserver...?

>One message since 4:00pm? What happened now?
>_______________________________________________________

Gawd, I hope it wasn't me!  I sent in a few this afternoon, and they
aren't here yet:(   There were no E-Mail bombs in there, ~I Swear!~

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 02:25:53 -0400
Subject: Re: OK, who broke the Listserver...?

At 01:41 AM 11/26/96 -0400, you wrote:
>One message since 4:00pm? What happened now?
>_______________________________________________________
>Dr. Robert Barry  MailTo:RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu
>Theology Dept, Providence College, Providence, RI 02918
>

I got one too,

not two too,

but one two

Beats me

The Wiz Was Wondering three

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:28:14 -0400
Subject: Bolt specs from the "horse's mouth"

     Okay, after reading the discussion this morning about bolt grades I

     decided to talk to my dad and get the final word on bolt strengths.

     He works for Kar Products and they're one of the largest
manufacturers
     of fasteners around.  He's been selling nuts&bolts since 1980 to
     almost everywhere that has big equipment around here.  (as such, I
get
     all my fasteners for free, and he always has just the size I need
     "laying around" so I have no reason not to use grade 8 or
stainless,
     or whatever I want, wherever I want).  He's also been taking apart
     cars since before he could drive.  He's got a basement full of old
     drag racing trophies.  Sorry if this sounds like an ad, but it did
     come straight from a professional salesman's mouth. . .

     Some facts according to him:

     Grade 5 is 120,000 psi tensile strength.

     Grade 8 is 150,000 psi tensile strength.

     Note that this is per square inch.  a 3/8" bolt has a cross section
of
     ((3/8)/2)^2*pi square inches (area of circle=pi times r squared)
which
     figures to 0.11 square inches, which would be 0.11*120,000, or
13,254
     lbs for a grade 5 bolt (tensile strength).  I wish I would have
asked
     what the shear strength of the different grades are, I can find out
if
     anyone needs to know.

     The plating on a bolt will have no effect whatsoever on the
strength
     of the bolt assuming it is torqued properly.  The plating will
affect
     the torque spec that you'll use for the given fastener (some
platings
     are "slipperier" than others).

     Nuts also come in different grades, like 5 and 8.  The grade of a
bolt
     is found by reading the number of dashes placed radialliy around
the
     head and adding two (three dashes=grade 5.  6 dashes=grade 8).  A
nut
     can be read the same way, the dashes on a nut will be on the flat
side
     (the mating surface).

     Another bit of trivia is that after sometime in the mid 80's (he
     wasn't sure of the exact date) legislation was passed requiring the

     use of at least grade 5 fasteners on cars.  I don't know the
details,
     but I can't imagine that they mean _all_ fasteners. . . who needs a

     grade 5 carb wingnut?

     Also, he's a firm believer in using upgraded fasteners whenever
     possible, unless for some reason you _want_ the fastener to fail
before
     your part does on purpose.  He uses the argument that the bolts in
an
     engine are designed to be strong enough to hold together a
perfectly
     running new engine.  After the engine ages and the bolts age too,
     nothing is quite the same.

     Not all bolts are created equal.  He showed me a demo of their
"super
     5" grade 5 bolt and a bargain grade 8 bolt.  Put em toe to toe in a

     jig and torque them down against each other until one gives.  The
     competitors grade 8 always broke first.  For attaching that RATO
unit
     to your Toro, KAR Products also makes a Karalloy special grade 8
bolt
     with 180,000 psi tensile strength.

     Tom Lentz
     tlentz@teknon.com

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 07:00:15 -0400
Subject: L6 engine

Is the Olds L6 engine of the late 60's (1968 specifically) similar to
the C*evy six cylinder of that time?  If anybody knows and has info
about it (timing, valve sizes, etc), please contact me via private
email.  Thanks!

- --
Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS
dpauliso@gate.net

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 03:28:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Bolt specs from the "horse's mouth"

Tom Lentz wrote:
>
>      Okay, after reading the discussion this morning about bolt grades
I >      decided to talk to my dad and get the final word on bolt
strengths.

>
>      Not all bolts are created equal.  He showed me a demo of their
"super >      5" grade 5 bolt and a bargain grade 8 bolt.  Put em toe to
toe in a >      jig and torque them down against each other until one
gives.  The >      competitors grade 8 always broke first.  > >
Tom Lentz >

Tom,

Thanks for the help in bolt tensial strength.  I had read most of this
before, but in a much more complicated format.  The explanation is clean
& simple.

I guess that makes an oldsmobile a Super Grqde 88 & the rest just
ordinary.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:56:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Bolt specs from the "horse's mouth"


     Not all bolts are created equal.  He showed me a demo of their
"super 5"
     grade 5 bolt and a bargain grade 8 bolt.  Put em toe to toe in a
jig and
     torque them down against each other until one gives.

          You were doing fine until this point.  I'm not sure what the
          purpose of the "super 5" designation is.  First, for even a
          bargain grade 8 bolt to be classified as grade 8, it must
          have the minimum tensile strength you noted (otherwise it is
          a counterfeit fastener, a serious problem facing the
          aerospace industry).  A "super 5" bolt is presumably still
          marked as a grade 5 and must be used assuming that bolt's
          tensile and shear strengths are at the minimums for grade 5.
          Obviously, the higher capability gives one additional
          margin, however you still could not use the "super 5" bolts
          in an application which required grade 8.

          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:13:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Rear gears in 81 up

At 09:50 AM 11/25/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Someone posted the question concerning replacing the ring and pinion in
>their 81 (?) Olds with an early 350/350TH combo. My suggestion would be
>to swap out the original setup for a 9 inch Ford unit. There are quite
a >few shops fabbing the 9 inch housing to bolt in these and other GM
>applications. Greg Mosier in Indiana and Art Morrison in Florida. Both
>places are about the same on price. Morrison does offer upper control
>arm brackets with multiple holes for adjustments. If you bought
>everything new you would have under 2 grand in the whole set up. It
aint >cheap but it would be bullet proof. Both of these guys advertise
in the >major car magazines like Hot Rod and Car Craft. With your combo
and the >fact that you are running on the strip, I think you would be
better off >spending the money up front and save a lot of headaches. The
old "you >can pay me now, or pay me later" syndrome. > >My $.02s worth
>Dave Wyatt >70  4-4-2 > > FWIT there is a best 9" F**d axle assy also.
It will have a large "N" cast into the front of the case, between the
webs.

The Wiz

------------------------------

From: Fernando Proietto <proietto@dow.on.doe.ca>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:53:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Rocket Engine's and axle woe''s...

Tom Lentz wrote:
>
>      Welcome to the list!
>
>      The '85-'87 G bodies only came with 3.73:1 rear gears on the 442
and >      Hurst/Olds.  In addition, these cars have the 8.5" rear end,
rather >      than the 7.5" or 8" or whatever it is on the normal cars.
You'll need >      this rear end to stand up to the abuse of a big
block, but the smaller >      rear might hold up on a small block.  Just
to save you the trouble, >      those rear-ends are about as rare as
hens teeth, so you're better off >      looking elsewhere.  I've heard
that the Cutlass wagons from the mid >      80's equipped with the
towing package also have the 8.5" rear, but >      I've never seen one
myself.  I'm not sure of the gearing in these, but >      it's not
uncommon for a towing package to be equipped with 3.23:1 >      gears. >


Tom Let me get this right! I've been following this thread for awhile
and I'm not clear as of yet. Help me understand it as I too am looking
for a suitable 8.5" 10-bolt to bolt right into my '72 442 without any
modifications. What cars of the 1980's should have the unit I'm looking
for?

Fernando

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:18:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Oldsmobile Literature

At 10:49 AM 11/25/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Anybody got an Olds body parts book for the Viking or the 1931 car?
>*****
>I have Oldsmobile Parts Manuals from the mid '50s, but I believe that
>they only go back until about 1940 or so.  I can check, if you would
>like.
>
>Tom Stoner
>Ann Arbor, MI
>tgstoner@umich.edu
>
Thanks a lot for the note.  While my interest in centered about my newly
acquired '30 Viking Cabriolet, and I appreciate everyone that has some
old literature.  As well as attempting to sort out the missing parts
(It's quite a project car) I am also attempting to sort out 1925-1933
specific literature.  I have a 1928-1938 Master parts book and its neigh
worthless for my project.

Cliff Feiler
'30 Olds Viking
Impossible Project Co-ordinator

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:28:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Calipers (was: Counting Dollars)

At 10:43 AM 11/25/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>     I always upgrade to the later single-piston
>>     floating units (safety over originality any day).
>>
>I doubt they are short on safety.  But I do understand that they are
very >hard to come by these days. > >The Wiz >

Sniped>

>          I contrast this to the factory single-piston calipers on the
>          variety of 68-72 Cutlass/442s I have owned over the last 20
>          years.  In every case, if the car did not have the 69-72
>          design calipers on it to start, I quickly installed them.  I
>          have never had a problem with the pads wearing unevenly,
>          which I attribute to the use of the two pins as the sliding
>          surfaces.  These pins are plated and use o-rings between the
>          caliper and the pins.  I believe that this combination
>          prevents the friction-increasing rust on the sliding
>          surfaces.
>
>          Joe Padavano
>          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
>
>          66 442
>          68 W-30
>          69 H/O
>          70 W-30
>
>
I believe that the single piston brake assemblies are superior, both in
cost and servicability; and this was certainly not my point.

I think the underlying question I really had about 4 piston vs 1 piston
brakes was if the 4 piston type were, in fact, unsafe; shouldn't they
bechanged out asap.  But I sincerly doubt that they are unsafe.  If I
still had my '68 Vette and it still had 4 piston brakes I would continue
to rework them if the car was a show car, and intended to be original.
If however, it was a daily driver this would put an entirely different
complexion on the question, but only the first time it needed new
brakes.

Also the warped rotor concept.  I would expect that a warped rotor would
also be detramental to single pistons too.

I am about as open minded a man that you can find on this board, and I
like to argue my side; but I will adapt to a superior arguement.  I
don't disagree with you points, either; at this stage I'm just not
convinced.

The Wiz

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:37:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Parts

At 12:17 PM 11/25/96 -0400, you wrote:
>OK this is what I have, Stripping an 67 delta 88.
>

Snip>

>P.S. I am looking for sponsors for this Olds we race.  Just think of a
>classic Olds punching through an impala, does my heart good...hey just
how >long can I run a 425 at 5500 RPM's anyway? > 1320 feet is usually
sufficient!

Anon.

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:34:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Resto  Tips  .....

At 02:37 PM 11/25/96 -0400, you wrote:
>C.R.F. wrote:
>>
>> Sounds like an awl fully good tip to me.
>
>Is that another one of your pointed remarks?   ;)
>
>The 66 Toro and Mike
>
>
>--
>Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
>     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
>     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/
>
>
>
It certainly was if I can pin it on someone.

Cliff Feiler

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:33:28 -0400
Subject: Re: 70 Rotors

At 11:16 AM 11/25/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Do any of you all know where I can find new or good used 69-70
>front disc brake rotors. I've been working off junkyard luck
>and thought you'd be a good group to ask.
>
>agreeing with Joe Pavadano on safety over originality,
>cf
>
>          I bought a set of brand new rotors from my local auto parts
>          store about 6 months ago.  They are made by Wagner and are
>          excellent replacements.  Unfortunately, I don't recall the
>          price (I'll see if I can find the receipt tonight), but the
>          number $70 ea sticks in my mind (don't quote me on this).  I
>          bought new ones because it seems that every used one I can
>          find is at or under the minimum thickness for resurfacing.
>          FYI, the rotors are the same from 69-72.
>
>          Joe Padavano
>          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
>
>          66 442
>          68 W-30
>          69 H/O
>          70 W-30
>
>
>
Joe,

Absolutely.  Good grief, why would someone want USED brake parts of any
kind, when there are new ones.  And Wagner's reputation is certainly as
good as any of the OEMs, too.

The Wiz

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:39:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Re[2]: 400 C.I. V8 in 1975???

At 12:53 PM 11/25/96 -0400, you wrote:
>On Mon, 25 Nov 1996 JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com wrote:
>>           It definitely isn't an Olds engine.  My first reaction was
>>           Pontiac, since they built the 6.6 liter (400 ci) motor well
 >>           into the 70s, however since the bore and stroke also
match >>           up with the 400 SBC, my vote goes for Chevy.  Wasn't
the >>           "Chevomobile" lawsuit in the mid-70s?  That would be
>>           consistent with the 1975 use of an SBC. > >Quotes contained
in the Norbye & Dunne book, "Oldsmobile - The Classic >Postwar Years"
talk about the Chevymobile controversy as beginning in '76 >when Olds
ran out of capacity for 350 V-8s due to their own high sales >plus
commitments made to supply engines to Buick and Pontiac. This '75 400
>is the first mention I've ever seen of this brand substitution
happening >earlier. It clearly isn't an Olds Rocket V-8. Interestingly,
the book says >that in '76 the Chevy engines were fitted with air
cleaners bearing the >same Olds rocket designation as the real rocket
V-8s. Wonder if this one >did too? > >I think we've uncovered a piece
of heretofore obscure Olds trivia! > >Greg Beaulieu
ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada > > > Wow, I
wish I would have discovered that absolutely sensational bit of GM
trivia...

The Wiz

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:43:27 -0400
Subject: Re: 400 C.I. V8 in 1975???

At 12:56 PM 11/25/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>I've been following this thing & couldn't believe that the Olds 400
was >>ressurected.  I could be convinced though.  I'm sure that we have
the >>Chevy 400 here.  This is the only one that makes sense.  The
Pontiac was >>on teh way out, expensive, & big to be transferred to
other cars on a >>mass basis.  Chevy was the only acceptable one (not to
tell those >>plaintiffs in the law-suit though). > >Actually, the
Pontiac 400 was produced until '79 (remember the T/A 6.6
>flamingchickens?), and installed in the '78 B-bodies (all makes), so
the >Chevy is not the only possibility. > >I still think they'd avoid
using two different trannies if at all possible.
>_______________________________________________________ >Dr. Robert
Barry  MailTo:RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu >Theology Dept, Providence
College, Providence, RI 02918 > > As far as the trannys go, isn't this
the period of the bi-flange TH350s?

The Wiz

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:55:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Fastest Olds

At 03:13 PM 11/25/96 -0400, you wrote:
>BobH592058@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> Well, let's see.  My '67 runs low eights in the 1/4 using a blown
403, >> nitrous and a jet assisted take off (JATO) unit I found in the
Arizona >> desert.  It was laying in the road just before a big hole in
the side of a >> mesa. >> > > >I guess I know where you got the JATO,
so why bother with the cars >engine???
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
----- > >You all know about the Darwin Awards - It's an annual honor
given to the >person who did the gene >pool the biggest service by
killing themselves in the most >extraordinarily stupid way. Last year's
winner >was the fellow who was killed by a Coke machine which toppled
over on >top of him as he was >attempting to tip a free soda out of it. >
>And this year's nominee is: > >The Arizona Highway Patrol came upon a
pile of smoldering metal embedded >into the side of a cliff >rising
above the road at the apex of a curve. The wreckage resembled the >site
of an airplane crash, but >it was a car. The type of car was
unidentifiable at the scene. The lab >finally figured out what it was
and >what had happened. > >It seems that a guy had somehow gotten hold
of a JATO unit (Jet Assisted >Take Off - actually a solid >fuel rocket)
that is used to give heavy military transport planes an >extra "push"
for taking off from short >airfields. He had driven his Chevy Impala out
into the desert and found >a long, straight stretch of road. >Then he
attached the JATO unit to his car, jumped in, got up some speed >and
fired off the JATO! > >The facts as best as coould be determined are
that the operator of the >1967 Impala hit JATO ignition at >a distance
of approximately 3.0 miles from the crash site. This was >established by
the prominent >scorched and melted asphalt at that location. The JATO,
if operating >properly, would have reached >maximum thrust within 5
seconds, causing the Chevy to reach speeds well >in excess of 350 mph
and >continuing at full power for an additional 20-25 seconds. The
driver, >soon to be pilot, most likely would >have experienced G-forces
usually reserved for dog-fighting F-14 jocks >under full afterburners,
>basically causing him to become insignificant for the remainder of the
>event. However, the automobile >remained on the straight highway for
about 2.5 miles (15-20) seconds >before the driver applied and
>completely melted the brakes, blowing the tires and leaving thick
rubber >marks on the road surface, >then becoming airborne for an
additional 1.4 miles and impacting the >cliff face at a height of 125
feet >leaving a blackened crater 3 feet deep in the rock. > >Most of
the driver's remains were not recoverable; however, small >fragments of
bone, teeth and hair >were extracted from the crater and fingernail and
bone shards were >removed from a piece of debris >believed to be a
portion of the steering wheel. > > That could have been the worlds
fastest Chevy, now tell us the Olds part?

Anon.

------------------------------

From: Dennis Johnson <dwjohnso@sunbird.usd.edu>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:03:25 -0400
Subject: RE: 400 C.I. V8 in 1975???

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBDAFA.F53CC3E0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

...this got me to looking in my literature and here's what I found:

1965-67 400: 4.00 x 3.98 bore and stroke
1968-69 400: 3.87 x 4.25
1975 400: 4.12 x 3.75 (option L-65)
1977-79 403: 4.35 x 3.39

So... it's not either of the earlier Olds 400's. Any idea what it is?
Greg Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia,
Canada

  No one asked me to do this but...
engine no. 1...400.1141 cu. in.
engine no. 2...399.9371 cu. in.
engine no. 3...399.9508 cu. in.
engine no. 4...403.0501 cu. in.

dj



- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBDAFA.F53CC3E0
Content-Type: application/ms-tnef
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64

eJ8+IhsAAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgAB
BJAG
ADgBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAFEAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmd
bgDd
AQ9UAgAAAABvbGRzbW9iaWxlQGNoZWJ1Y3RvLm5zLmNhAFNNVFAAb2xkc21vYmlsZUBjaGVi
dWN0
by5ucy5jYQAAAAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAGgAAAG9sZHNtb2JpbGVA
Y2hl
YnVjdG8ubnMuY2EAAAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAAAcAAAAJ29sZHNtb2JpbGVA
Y2hl
YnVjdG8ubnMuY2EnAAIBCzABAAAAHwAAAFNNVFA6T0xEU01PQklMRUBDSEVCVUNUTy5OUy5D
QQAA
AwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAAIB9g8BAAAABAAAAAAAAAPaPQEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNyb3Nv
ZnQg
TWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQSAAQAbAAAAUkU6IDQwMCBDLkkuIFY4IGluIDE5NzU/Pz8A5QUBBYAD
AA4A
AADMBwsAGQASAAMAGQABACYBASCAAwAOAAAAzAcLABkAEgAAABQAAQAeAQEJgAEAIQAAAEM0
OTBC
Rjc2RTc0NkQwMTE4MjBBMTAwMDVBMUUzN0E4APwGAQOQBgDYAwAAEgAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAm
AAAA
AAALACkAAAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5AIAA/T4t27sBHgBwAAEAAAAbAAAAUkU6IDQwMCBDLkku
IFY4
IGluIDE5NzU/Pz8AAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG72y0+/Xa/kMVG5xHQggoQAFoeN6gAAB4AHgwB
AAAA
AwAAAE1TAAAeAB8MAQAAABoAAABHRU9MU1VSVi9HRU9MU1VSVi9EZW5uaXNKAAAAAwAGEAhW
V7oD
AAcQYwEAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAFRISVNHT1RNRVRPTE9PS0lOR0lOTVlMSVRFUkFUVVJFQU5E
SEVS
RVNXSEFUSUZPVU5EOjE5NjUtNjc0MDA6NDAwWDM5OEJPUkVBTkRTVFJPS0UxOTY4LTY5NDAw
OjM4
N1g0MjUAAAAAAgEJEAEAAABVAgAAUQIAAPgDAABMWkZ1F9r1YP8ACgEPAhUCqAXrAoMAUALy
CQIA
Y2gKwHNldDI3BgAGwwKDMgPFAgBwckJxEeJzdGVtAoMzdwLkBxMCgH0KgAjPCdk78RYPMjU1
AoAK
gQ2xC2BgbmcxMDMUUAsDbHhpMzYN8AtVFFEL8SC+LhsQGiwKoANgE9BjBUCkdGgEACBnHFAg
B4BJ
HKBvIBWgb2sLgGdWIAuAHTB5HZBpE9ByHGF0CHAdUABwZCBoaQSQZScEIHcRgAVASWogAhB1
H0A6
CoUKhTEAOTY1LTY3IDQoMDA6IgAuIiAgeMAgMy45OCAG4B8FUxPAA2BrZSEoOCHQOfsiBCLQ
OCHw
IrAiYBhAISd0NzUiBjER4CKyJpEoSm8FMGkCICBMIdA1oikmCDctNyTiMyJCJjMmoCKyMzkg
vFNv
qxsRHhB0H7FuHRFlHpCxH3Egb2YcoR1QZQrA4xnQLKFPbGQEICIRH7CpK7BBbh5gaQ2wYR/U
0x6Q
HhBzPwqFRxYQHgDKQi1AdS1xdSAxBQGgEDM0OEARcGVidWccgCuAAIAuYy7wMQVIIwdABpBh
eCwH
sG92rS7wUwWgKABhM7BDAHB4YWRhCocaSwqPG5hjrwBAMQEz0CzAbh8RcyPwux9QHURkHYAc
szIQ
dBsR7zZrGd835QnwZwuAHVAsIJ0rsDEbESIRJyAxNDgwtGN1K7FuOnY82TIbEeUqcDki4DM3
Pj88
6CLQ+UAFNTAjAEC/PQYiYD2inSLQMELQQJ42ZWRqG0+/HFQgvDqPO55H3RUxAExwAAAAAwAQ
EAMA
AAADABEQAAAAAEAABzDAkZDQLNu7AUAACDDAkZDQLNu7AR4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAA
Tv0=

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBDAFA.F53CC3E0--

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:13:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Fastest Olds  **non-olds content**

At 03:39 PM 11/25/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>I was in the school library reading through an old issue of Motor Trend
 >(they go back to 196-something).  In the 1970 issue, there was the
story >of an Englisman who was a Rolls Royce lover.  He had several
Rolls' and >one without a motor.  Anyway, he was walking around a
junkyard when he >spots a big motor.  He buys it and it is the motor
from a Spitfire (the >airplane, not the Triumph) which was made by
Rolls Royce.  You can guess >what happened!  Anyway he ended up with a
HUGE 27 or so liter (yes, >that's 27,000 cc) V (or Inline, don't
remember) 12 cylinder.   For some >oddball reason, the motor has a
redline of only 2500 rpm, of course, by >then, he was doing 200+ mph.
They only claimed 8's in the 1/4 as I >recall, but you know what Motor
Trend's 1/4 mile times are like :-)  This >was of course for a full
frame Rolls, which would weigh more than my '72 >Mercury Marquis
Brougham.  The Mercury (which has a 429 (7.0l) runs a >best of high
16's stock (according to the '72 issue of M.T., it only runs >18's or
19's stock).  As for the Rolls, the 1997 Convertible, tips the >scales
with a curb weight of 5400 lbs! > >'nuff for now, >Clayton Pierce,
>zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu >

OK, you asked for it, RR (with a GM Flavor of course) trivia now too?
The power in a typical Vickers Supermarine "Spitfire" airplace came from
a RR "Merlin" V1650 (yep 1650 cubes) in a V12 configuration.  Those Olds
club members that have already received their copy of "Setting the Pace"
can see how Oldsmobile ground some of those V12 RR crankshafts, by the
way?

This engine was also made in the U.S.  The 'prime contractor' here was
the Packard Motor Car Co., and obviously Olds ran parts on a
subcontractor basis.

This engine was also used in large number in U.S. aircraft when it's
American counterpart the Allison V1710 failed to live up to it's
expectations early in the war.  By war's end, the Allison had grown out
of its labor pains, and became an engine every bit as good as the
Merlin, and it had an aditional 60 cubes to move it along.

The reason that engines of this type have such a low redline, is two
fold, one the bigger the engine gets the harder it is to make it go
faster.  Some large diesel engines in trucks have red lines even lower
than 2500.

The second is that it is no value going faster.  The maximum speed
(rotational) that an airplane engine can be allowed to run is controled
by the speed of the propeller tip; which cannot be allowed to go
supersonic...Period...

Some large aircraft of the WWII period had propellers in the 16' dia.
range. The prop tip will be approacting the speed of sound well before
the engine could reach 2500 rpm.  There are some engines where the
output of the is geared down, but the Merlin (in a Spit or a Mustang) or
the Allison (in a P38 or Mustang for examples) were not of this type.

The Wiz

------------------------------

From: Steve Ochs <76057.1404@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:58:40 -0400
Subject: GM Service Manuals

For those looking for factory service manuals for Oldsmobile, the rights
to these manuals has been purchased by Helm, Inc.  They have stock on
many original manuals for 1980's and up Oldsmobiles (and just about any
other GM vehicle).  My original manual for my '87 442 was getting worn
from use and I wanted a clean one for shows.  I called Helm and in 5
days I had a factory original NEW service manual at my door.  It is
worth a check  I do not know what other companies are charging, but the
new chassis manual was $75 and the Fisher Body manual was $22. I paid
$50 for the same manual in 1987 so the price is not too bad for quality
material.

Helm Incorporated
P.O. Box 07130
Detroit, Michigan  48207
1-800-782-4356
8-6 EST M-F

Steve Ochs - Engineer - GM Powertrain - Transmission Div. (4T60/65-E)
'87 442
'76 Cutlass S

------------------------------

From: Steve Ochs <76057.1404@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:58:48 -0400
Subject: GM rear axle recall

In the late '70s and early '80s, GM converted axle shaft retention from
bolting in to being held in with c-clips in the differential housing.
The problem with some axles was that the groove in the axle shaft that
the c-clip held on to was machined too wide.  This allowed excess
endplay in the axle shaft.  Over time, the clip and the groove would
wear due to the excessive side movement and the clip would fall out.
Then the axle shaft comes right out of the axle carrier.
     My uncle experienced this on a 1978 Cutlass.  He was traveling on
the highway and the engine suddenly revved.  When he looked to his left,
he saw his left wheel and axle shaft assembly flying across the median
of I-75.  I do not remember what the allowable end play is.  Maybe
someone knows this?

Steve Ochs - Engineer - GM Powertrain - Transmission Div. (4T60/65-E)
'87 442
'76 Cutlass S

------------------------------

From: Steve Ochs <76057.1404@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:58:45 -0400
Subject: Overheating

There have been some very good suggestions on the overheating issue.
One thing to check if the radiator is old is the fins between the cross
tubes.  My '76 Cutlass S would stay at 185 degrees not matter what the
temperature as long as I was driving around town.  When I went out on
the highway, the temperature would climb to 210 degrees.  The inside of
the radiator looked perfect as I have always maintained coolant changes.
New thermostat, hoses, thermostatic clutch, etc, did not help.  When I
pulled the radiator to check it externally, some of the fins fell out.
Corrosion due to age had caused the fins to come loose and impede the
proper heat transfer from the tubes to the fins.  Thsi dramaticaly
reduces radiator capacity.  A new radiator brought the temperature back
to normal.

Steve Ochs - Engineer - GM Powertrain - Transmission Div. (4T60/65-E)
'87 442
'76 Cutlass S

------------------------------

From: Steve Ochs <76057.1404@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:58:41 -0400
Subject: GM Alternators

The W cars do seem to have an alternator problem.  Both my 1994 and my
1995 Grand Prix had to have the alternator replaced by 20,000 miles.
The usual failure of these units is one of the bearings. Failures occur
more often on the 3.4l DOHC V-6 because of the higher RPMs and the extra
heat.   This unit was designed to be replaced as an assembly and not to
be serviced in the field. There is no dissasembly or parts information
in the service manuals.  That is why parts are not available for it.
Try to find one with a good warranty.

Steve Ochs - Engineer - GM Powertrain - Transmission Div. (4T60/65-E)
'87 442
'76 Cutlass S

------------------------------

From: Steve Ochs <76057.1404@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:58:39 -0400
Subject: Thermostats

In the October 96 issue of JWO, there was an article about cooling
systems and the mention that 1960-68 Oldsmobile V-8s require a specific
thermostat.  The article references GM Service Bulletin 68-T-7.  It
states that due to the flow characteristics of the  Oldsmobile water
pump, only OEM style thermostats can be used. 1960-62   #3749085
1967-67  #3749086 1968       #3885009

I do not know if this covers any engines into the early '70s, but it
might be worth a check.  Also, the OEM style thermostats appear to be a
flapper type.  It is important that it is installed so that the word
FRONT faces front, or that the valve opens facing the front for proper
coolant flow.

Steve Ochs - Engineer - GM Powertrain - Transmission Div. (4T60/65-E)
'87 442
'76 Cutlass S

------------------------------

From: Steve Ochs <76057.1404@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:58:49 -0400
Subject: Steering Wheel Removal

Be careful when hammering on a steering shaft (steering wheel mounting
point). The bearings used in the steering collumn are susceptible to
brinelling when subjected to a sharp, intense, lateral impact.
Brinelling of the bearing  will cause a grinding feel when turning the
wheel.  Brinelling is when the rollers or balls in the bearing create
impressions in the race due to the impact.  Not that you cannot use a
hammer, just be judicious with its use.

Steve Ochs - Engineer - GM Powertrain - Transmission Div. (4T60/65-E)
'87 442
'76 Cutlass S

------------------------------

From: mrw@mil.emc.com (Marc Westerlind)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:33:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Re[2]: 400 C.I. V8 in 1975???

I really havent been following this too closely so sorry if I am
completely off the subject here... Is everyone talking about an engine
block or a complete engine? If its a complete engine and easy way to
tell them apart would be to take a look at the distributor. If the
distributor is at the rear of the engine and it passes through the
intake manifold and the spark plugs are underneath the exhaust ports in
the head its a chevy. Most oldsmobiles that I know of the distributor
does not pass through the intake manifold and the spark plugs are above
the exhaust ports in the heads. I am not too sure about pontiacs...



Marc Westerlind
1970 cutlass supreme

------------------------------

From: bryceman@442.com (Bryceman)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:49:05 -0400
Subject: Kalmbach Pubs model kit survey

>Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:46:15 -0500
>From: dk0009@epfl2.epflbalto.org (Douglas Kitchener)
>To: bryce_smith@scilab.com, bryceman@442.com
>Subject: Kalmbach Pubs model kit survey
>Status:  O
>
>Howdy, rocket-riders!  A few days ago there was a msg on the Toronado
List >about >Kalmbach Publishing's Fine Scale Modeler magazine >and its
survey re model kits... I tried to email the survey and couldn't >(email
>bounced).  FYI, found out today from the web-buster >@ Kalmbach, they
_did_ have a problem with an alias or an address change or >something.
So the Kalmbach survey email works now.  In case you didn't >see the
>note, mag wants to know what models we'd like!  See Fine Scale
Modeler's home >page, start at www.kalmbach.com, it's all linked. > >Any
comments on this message, please send to me direct at
>dk0009@mail.pratt.lib.md.us as I'm not a subscriber. > >Seeya! > >Doug
Kitchener >Lansing in '97! > >Oldsmobile - Always A Step Ahead!

           Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Oldsmobiles
'66 Dynamic 88 B07 Apprehender  '65 442   '72 Cutlass Convertible
            Email: bryceman@442.com  URL: www.442.com

------------------------------

From: bryceman@442.com (Bryceman)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:49:07 -0400
Subject: Kalmbach Pubs model kit survey

>Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:46:15 -0500
>From: dk0009@epfl2.epflbalto.org (Douglas Kitchener)
>
>Howdy, rocket-riders!  A few days ago there was a msg on the Toronado
List >about >Kalmbach Publishing's Fine Scale Modeler magazine >and its
survey re model kits... I tried to email the survey and couldn't >(email
>bounced).  FYI, found out today from the web-buster >@ Kalmbach, they
_did_ have a problem with an alias or an address change or >something.
So the Kalmbach survey email works now.  In case you didn't >see the
>note, mag wants to know what models we'd like!  See Fine Scale
Modeler's home >page, start at www.kalmbach.com, it's all linked. > >Any
comments on this message, please send to me direct at
>dk0009@mail.pratt.lib.md.us as I'm not a subscriber. > >Seeya! > >Doug
Kitchener >Lansing in '97! > >Oldsmobile - Always A Step Ahead!

------------------------------

From: r_mullen@Merck.Com (R Mullen)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:47:00 -0400
Subject: [none]

>The Wiz writes
>Contrary to previous postings springs do not have a memory, but
>do take a 'set.'

Springs do have 'memory'.  That's why they don't turn into a straight
metal rod when you take them out of the car, right?  'Memory' and 'set'
are interchangeable terms.  Leaving the car weight on the springs may
cause them to "collapse" and lose some installed height, but they will
not 'set' into one position.  If you take the original front coil spring
out of a 25 year old car, you will require a spring compresser.  Hardly
behavior associated with a 'set' spring.
Scott Mullen
'70 442

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:47:12 -0400
Subject: Slow, pokey email? (Was Re: Power Beams)

>In the mid-60s, GM's Guide division made headlights that had the "T-3"
>logo on them that are now prized for collectability. At some point in
the >1970's these were discontinued and they made sealed beams that
were >called "Power Beams" instead. I have these in my Skylark. I'm
wondering: >are these halogen lamps or just an improved version of the
T-3?

Something in my email feed has gone seriously wacko and messages such as
the above are just drifting in now (if anyone has sent me direct email
between now and last Saturday, it might be a good idea to send it to me
again).

To answer the above, the Power Beams are simply renamed tungsten bulbs
as far as I recall. Factory halogen sealed beams have inner bulbs within
 the sealed unit which are easily seen through the lens (in case you
don't believe the "HALOGEN" logo which the factory helpfully casts into
the front :-)

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:57:47 -0400
Subject: L6 engine

Is the Olds L6 engine of the late 60's (1968 specifically) similar to
the C*evy six cylinder of that time?  If anybody knows and has info
about it (timing, valve sizes, etc), please contact me via private
email.  Thanks!

- --
Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS
dpauliso@gate.net

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:42:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Equals One Aurora Payment

 but it sure beats paying that much every month, and for some cars,
>that's the monthly _lease_ price!
>
>
>"Enjoy the Ride!"
>
  Yeah, I've often considerred a newer car, but the only kind I'd be
interested has to be less than five years old, so I ~won't~ have to mess
with it, otherwise, what good would a ~new~ one be to me, right?  (I
usually get that feeling when I have to ~mess~ with one of my older
ones...)  After more detailed thought investigations, however, I
consider the fact that I'd have to spend at least $10000 to get one that
would match my criteria (Newer, clean, Olds, quick, economical, etc.
--not necessarily in that order) and I'd have to spend at least $150 a
year on tags, then the insurance, full coverage would be mandated, as it
would be financed, and it doesn't take long to add up to quite a sum.
Amoritzations, and payments seem to soften the blow, but just to think
how far that $10000 would go in my current rigs!  Ooh man, I could beat
out any Aurora in class and comfort, then!  (Well, ~almost~ any
Aurora...)

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:42:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Fastest Olds

>Conceptually, you could dump the JATO for RATO,

     ~Rocket~ Assisted Take-Off?  Hey, we already all have that!:)  Some
of us have a special appreciation for how they work, though:)

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:42:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Fastest Olds  **non-olds content**

  Anyway he ended up with a HUGE 27 or so liter (yes,
>that's 27,000 cc) V (or Inline, don't remember) 12 cylinder.

     I wonder if he used grade 8 bolts back then....  :)

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: kdporter@midwest.net (kdporter)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:05:29 -0400
Subject: G body rear ends

 I recently rebuild a 86 monte carlo ss rear end,the car was all
original,the rear was a 7.5 ring gear.I ordered new gears from richmond
gear.I have took alot of G body rears apart and have never seen a 8.5
ring gear on any of these cars.The 7.5/8 ring gear was the heavy unit
only in the S-10 s & blazers done alot of those also.If anyone has a 8.5
ring gear in there G body i want to see it.


kdporter
kdporter@midwest.net

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:42:14 -0400
Subject: Re: statement, and supreme console question

>Can anybody (with that Olds book maybe) tell me how many '84 Cutlass
>Supremes (not Calais, not Broughams) were made with the center console
>shifter and bucket seats?

     Not nearly enough!  :(  I don't have any books to check, but I can
tell you that much!  :)

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:42:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Introduction (fwd)

>I think you're both wrong... its being done from the ground up, right?
So >I figure he's gotten the body done from the rockers up to the
windows, >which is why he needs the weatherstrips and such now... ;-)


     Must be why so many cars have white tops???  :)

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:42:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Fastest Olds

>Well, let's see.  My '67 runs low eights in the 1/4 using a blown 403,
   Just one?  The other four sticking out of the hood are for looks or
spares?   :)

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: Spud <spud@kudonet.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:59:39 -0400
Subject: Adios for now

Well, I'm overwhelmed with things to do and the holidays are upon us.
So for now, I must say adios.  If my load lightens up after the first of
the year, perhaps I'll resubscribe.

I'd like to express my appreciation for this list and for the collection
of specialized and general auto and specifically Olds knowledge.  Thank
you everyone.

Happy Holidays to one and all.


Spud     "Fart proudly."
'86 FXST   --Benjamin Franklin
'73 Delta 88
'79 LeBaron

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:03:48 -0400
Subject: Removing steering wheel

>BTW, anyone have any tips for how to remove a
>steering wheel that doesn't want to come off?
>Greg Beaulieu

Beat upon it with a large mallet!  ;)
- --
Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS
dpauliso@gate.net

------------------------------

From: "JOHN L. BERENYI" <berenyi@texas.dseg.ti.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:12:05 -0400
Subject: FS: Mondello Cam JM16/18H

For 45 deg lifter bank...in the box...$50 plus shipping. I paid $105.


Email me direct berenyi@texas.dseg.ti.com

------------------------------

From: Doug Ahern <doug@cobra.cosmic.uga.edu>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:08:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Rear sway bar question

Aaron Neumann <neumann.12@osu.edu> wrote:
>Here's where my confusion set in.  Now I understand...the sway bar is
>attached to the chassis and the ends of it are attached to each control
arm. >That makes sense.  I'm not sure how I got to thinking the whole
sway bar was >isolated on the axle...ahhh, I know.  I've got a plastic
model of a 69 442, >and yep, the sway bar isn't located in the correct
spot.  Dang it, >AMT/Ertl...I rely on them for quality reproductions,
and this is what I get!;)

wait a minute,,,  the rear sway isn't attached to the chassis,  it is a
long bar with the ends turned 90 degrees facing the front of the car,
these ends are bolted to the lower control arms.  when one LCA moves in
a different direction that the other LCA  the bar twists ( this also
happens if the two LCAs are moving in the same direction but at
different lengths of travel ). The sway bar, like a torsion bar or a
coil spring, resists this twisting.

some types of sway bars are secured to the chassis:  most front sway
bars and a lot of rear leaf spring suspensions. But not the GM A-bodies
of 64-72 (stock at least).

AMT/Etrl was probably right!

Doug Ahern      doug@cosmic.uga.edu  1964 F-85 Cutlass
http://www.cosmic.uga.edu/doug.html  1969 Dart
Sys Admin, COSMIC, Univ. of Georgia  1974 Satellite ex-cop car

------------------------------

From: Christian Fair <cfair@fairisaac.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:35:33 -0400
Subject: Oops - 70 Rotors

Sorry,
I forgot to mention I'm looking for 88/98 rotors here, not Cutlass or
A body rotors. Could you call your local store by any chance and check
that for me or send the number. My supplier has looked around and
doesn't have a source. thanks cf


>Do any of you all know where I can find new or good used 69-70
>front disc brake rotors. I've been working off junkyard luck
>and thought you'd be a good group to ask.
>
>agreeing with Joe Pavadano on safety over originality,
>cf
>
>          I bought a set of brand new rotors from my local auto parts
>          store about 6 months ago.  They are made by Wagner and are
>          excellent replacements.  Unfortunately, I don't recall the
>          price (I'll see if I can find the receipt tonight), but the
>          number $70 ea sticks in my mind (don't quote me on this).  I
>          bought new ones because it seems that every used one I can
>          find is at or under the minimum thickness for resurfacing.
>          FYI, the rotors are the same from 69-72.
>
>          Joe Padavano
>          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
>
>          66 442
>          68 W-30
>          69 H/O
>          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: Christian Fair <cfair@fairisaac.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:35:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Smog Rumor

It used to be this way but our government in their infinitesimally small
wisdom changed the law.  'bout 89 or so. How can we influence this
process and make the system work for us? Any one know of a .gov site
where we can search for legislation in Ca. on this topic? cf


>I've heard some great news for those of us in California that
>are having trouble with smog.  I heard that Congress is in the process
>of passing a bill that states that all cars that are older than 25
years >old from the present date are smog exempt.  I know that this is
too good >to be true, so what's the real story? >Thanks >Brad >'70 442

------------------------------

From: "Tracy H. Shires" <twodogs@ou.edu>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:14:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Rocket Engine's and axle woe''s...

At 11:53 AM 11/26/96 -0400, Fernando Proietto wrote:

>>
>
>Tom Let me get this right! I've been following this thread for awhile
>and I'm not clear as of yet. Help me understand it as I too am looking
>for a suitable 8.5" 10-bolt to bolt right into my '72 442 without any
>modifications. What cars of the 1980's should have the unit I'm looking
>for?
>
>Fernando
>

If I am not mistaken, the 72 Cutlass' had a rear axle that was
proximately 2 or 4 inches longer than the ones made in the 80's. The
newer axles are shorter and are set up for the coil springs.. I'm sure
it would work, but it would probably be easier to find an older axle...

Another option I have pondered is putting a F*rd 9in in the back.. A
friend of mine has a spare that came out of an LTD.  It is about 6
inches too long for the cut though.. It was four inches too long for the
guys 65 stang.. In order to make any 9in work in a cutlass ( at least an
81) serious welding would have to take place.....

Here is another interesting tidbit to add to my original post.. This
came directly out of the latest summit magazine : -
---------------------------------- Richmond Street Gears

Gm 10 bolt
  7.5 in dia. ring gear/1.438 in dia 27 spline pinion
Installation notes: *3.08 and lower carrier
                    **3.23 and higher carrier
rmg-4900441** 3.23 42-13
rmg-4900051*  3.42 41-12
rmg-4900461** 3.73 41-11
rmg-4900071*  3.73 41-11
rmg-6903221** 4.10 41-10
rmg-4900091*  4.10 41-10
rmg-6903241** 4.56 41-9
rmg-6903261*  4.56 41-9
- ------------------------------
Is this to imply that we can now put any of these gears in the smaller
carrier? I don't know why I haven't seen this before... Any comments?

Another question just to make sure.. 81 old cutluss' came with 7.5 in
differential right?

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:27:15 -0400
Subject: Re: 455 running hot

>I own two 442's, A 1970 and A 1971.  Both cars will run hot in
>the summer time when temperatures get to 98 to 108 degrees.
[...thorough details deleted...]

[...BTW, November 19th? Where has this message been all this time?
Oh, well...]

I notice you didn't mention pressure testing the cooling systems
of either car. Might be interesting to see if you're losing pressure
through either old hoses, pinhole leaks or weak radiator caps.

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 04:43:18 -0400
Subject: Re[2]: Rocket Engine's and axle woe''s...

     Okay, the 8.5" rear can be found on '83-'84 Hurst/Olds, '84-'87
442's,
     buick Grand Nationals, and Regal T-types.  The Olds's had 3.73
rears
     and the Buicks had either 3.23 or 3.73 rears.  The Monte SS has a
     smaller rear end and is less desirable, but it's still better than
     what's stock in the Cutlass.  I don't know for sure if any '78-'82
     cars had them, probably the 442's and H/O's did.  I've also heard a

     rumor that Cutlass Wagons equipped with the optional towing package

     could have this rear end.  The only way I know to ID this is to
check
     the numbers stamped on the passenger side front of the rear axle.

     If by some stroke of luck you should find a H/O, 442, or GN with
the
     rear end, first call me and I'll come get it.  No, seriously if you

     find one you should grab the tranny and driveshaft too, they're
nice
     units and not the same as your everyday 200-4R.  The overdrive
tranny
     is almost mandatory with 3.73:1 rear gears too.

     Whoops!  I just read that you're looking for a unit for your '72
442.
     Well, I can't help you there.  I know A-body rears can be made to
fit
     the G-body (and stick out just a tad), but I don't know if it works

     the other way around.  You need to find a rear end off of a similar

     year Cutlass, Chevelle, GTO, buick. . .


______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________ Subject: Re: Rocket Engine's and axle
woe''s... Author:  oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca at INTERNET Date:
11/26/96 8:07 AM

Tom Let me get this right! I've been following this thread for awhile
and I'm not clear as of yet. Help me understand it as I too am looking
for a suitable 8.5" 10-bolt to bolt right into my '72 442 without any
modifications. What cars of the 1980's should have the unit I'm looking
for?

Fernando


------------------------------

From: Blaine Sanders 5483 <BLAINES@strata3d.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:08:07 -0400
Subject: 'Nother rear sway bar question

Are stock sway bars better or worse than an aftermarket (like PST)
sway bar?  The reason I ask is, the posi rearend I got came with one,
but I already ordered one from PST.  Should I use the stock one or the
PST one?  Thanks...

- -Blaine

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 06:58:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Steering Wheel Removal

Steve Ochs wrote:
>
> Be careful when hammering on a steering shaft (steering wheel mounting
point). > The bearings used in the steering collumn are susceptible to
brinelling when > subjected to a sharp, intense, lateral impact.  Not
that > you cannot use a hammer, just be judicious with its use. > >
Steve Ochs

Steve,

I tried to use the word tap as opposed to beat.  I know that Ford tool
#0001 is a little heavy, but remember that you have an Oldsmoblie
w/tolerances of thousandths of an inch, not thousandths of a yard.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: hitson@leadbelt.com (Roger Hitson)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:07:31 -0400
Subject: thermostats

Steve Ochs wrote:

"       ...1960-1968 Oldsmobile V-8's require a specific thermostat.
....due to the flow characteristics of the Oldsmobile water pump, only
OEM style thermostats (later referred to as "flapper" types) can be
used."  <snip>

This is interesting to me as I am using a common Stant thermostat in my
'68 350 without  ~apparent ~ problem.  Duh, I don't even know what a
flapper type thermostat is.

Anyone else with 60's V-8's, please share your experience in this
matter. I'd hate to be haplessly screwing up my motor somehow over not
having the right thermostat.

Thanks.


Roger Hitson		
MailTo:hitson@leadbelt.com

------------------------------

From: Anthony Del Balso <anthony@robots.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:06:48 -0400
Subject: Engine Identification

Hello everyone,

First, this is non-oldsmobile (sorry Greg), but it is about my 2nd car,
my C*maro.  And this list has been the best source of info I can find.
I just purchased the 85 IROC.  It's supposed to have the 305TPI, but I
am finding clues it may have the 350TPI.  How can I id the engine (the
VIN says its a 305 and the car didn't have a 350 option) w/o opening it
up?  It won't pass smog and if it is a 350, still using the 305 PROM
chip, it can lead to a rich idle.  I know Hot Rod or Car Craft published
tips on how to tell the 2 apart, if anyone can point me to the issue,
or give me some info, thanks in advance. Please post to me directly, as
I had to unsubscribe (couldn't get through the messages fast enough for
my sys admin).  And then the non-olds post will only show once!  Thanks,

anthony@robots.com

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 05:07:00 -0400
Subject: Re: G Car Axles & Trannys too!

     You should check in the owners manual, I believe it has something
to
     say on the OD vs. D debate.

     I've heard that OD is relatively weak on most OD trannys, so you
     should avoid shifting into and out of it as much as possible.
Also,
     don't use OD up mountain passes or when towing.  With my 3.73 rear,

     the car will shift into OD at about 40-45mph under very light
     throttle.  I shift it into D whenever I'm taking a route that will
     approach 40-45mph but not much more.  If I'll be doing a sustained
40
     or more, then it goes into OD.  If I'm downtown or somewhere where
you
     never get above 30, then it's a moot point since it would never
shift
     into OD anyways, and getting the lightning rods from D all the way
up
     to Park is sort of an ordeal so I just leave it in OD (push in
button,
     shift from D to OD, let out button, shift from D to N, push in
button,
     shift from N to R to P).

     If there is a tranny expert here, perhaps they can comment on the
     following.  I've been told that for the 200-4R, for maximum
strength
     during racing, you should start in 2 and let the car do the 1-2
shift
     automatically and then do the 2-3 shift manually.  This is
supposedly
     because of the internal design of the tranny keeping it in 2nd ups
the
     line pressure and provides more holding power for the clutches than
in
     D.

     Tom Lentz
     tlentz@teknon.com


______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________ Subject: G Car Axles & Trannys too!
Author:  oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca at INTERNET Date:    11/26/96 8:07 AM

Another 'debate' I'd like some opinions on is whether one should drive
around at city speeds in 'OD' or 'D'.  I've heard that driving in 'OD'
in the city results in the transmission switching between 'D' & 'OD'
excessively.  The argument that driving in 'D' in the city will lessen
wear on the transmission seems reasonable to me.  Is it?

Thanks for any help or comments!

Ryan Hehn
ryanh@docker.com



------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:22:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Steering Wheel Removal

>> The bearings used in the steering collumn are susceptible to
brinelling when >> subjected to a sharp, intense, lateral impact.  Not
that >> you cannot use a hammer, just be judicious with its use.

Would someone please refresh my memory about why Greg (if that's who
posted this originally) wouldn't simply use a steering wheel puller?
Sears makes a good versatile one that doubles as a harmonic balancer
puller, too; in other words, buy one even if you think you'll never
use it again, because I'd bet that you _will_.

Also about not hammering on the column: my '93 manual has a lot of
strong wording about the risk of shearing plastic injections that
maintain column rigidity if you hammer on it; i.e. they're _supposed_
to break away if something such as a human chest punches the end of
the column.

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: mrw@mil.emc.com (Marc Westerlind)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:46:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Steering Wheel Removal

How about a steering wheel puller? I got one for about 10 dollars and my
steering wheel came off in seconds.


Marc Westerlind
1970 Cutlass Supreme

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:00:27 -0400
Subject: Re:

At 11:47 AM 11/26/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>The Wiz writes
>>Contrary to previous postings springs do not have a memory, but
>>do take a 'set.'
>
>Springs do have 'memory'.  That's why they don't turn into a straight
>metal rod when you take them out of the car, right?  'Memory' and 'set'
>are interchangeable terms.  Leaving the car weight on the springs may
>cause them to "collapse" and lose some installed height, but they will
>not 'set' into one position.  If you take the original front coil
spring >out of a 25 year old car, you will require a spring compresser.
Hardly >behavior associated with a 'set' spring. >Scott Mullen >'70 442 > > I
don't really equate "memory" to "set."  If they had memory they would
return to the exact form they had following heat treat at manufacture.
The do not have memory or set to their original straight rod (coil
springs), but will have taken a new set at manufacture.  Some plastics
that in fact have actual memory could be made to uncoil to the straight
bar.

I believe, that if you take a 25 year old coil out of a car and compare
it to a new one, the new one will be taller, as the old one has taken a
new set, and lost it original memory!

I agree, in fact, that these two concepts represent a similar conditon,
but not an 'exactly the same' position.

The Wiz

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 05:43:24 -0400
Subject: Re: thermostats

     Didn't the JWO article also say that the OEM flapper style
thermostats
     were no longer available?  I also recall that they said an
acceptable
     substitute was a high-flow thermostat, such as by Robershaw or Mr.
     Gasket, available at most speed shops.

     Tom Lentz
     tlentz@teknon.com

______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________ Subject: thermostats Author:
oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca at INTERNET Date:    11/26/96 9:21 AM

"       ...1960-1968 Oldsmobile V-8's require a specific thermostat.
...due to the flow characteristics of the Oldsmobile water pump, only
OEM style thermostats (later referred to as "flapper" types) can be
used."  <snip>

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:56:22 -0400
Subject: Re: statement, and supreme console question

>>Can anybody (with that Olds book maybe) tell me how many '84 Cutlass
>>Supremes (not Calais, not Broughams) were made with the center console
 >>shifter and bucket seats?

Well we send about ~30-40 mid 80's Cutlass's to the crusher per year and
my observation is that maybe one out of 10 has the console and
buckets....few and far between - - - - - - - - - - - - Jason Labay
Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com) or (jlabay@kent.edu) 93 Z/28......Patriot
Red, A4, G92(3.23), PEG2 a real muscle car...bone stock! 80 Olds 4-4-2
W-30 ( Actually a 4-3-1 W-30  in reality)..a pretend muscle car 75
Hurst/Olds W-25.....restoration project that is currently up for $sale$

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:13:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Engine Identification

Wow I am excited! Camaro posts on the Olds list:):):)

At 01:06 PM 11/26/96 -0400, Anthony Del Balso wrote:

>purchased the 85 IROC.  It's supposed to have the 305TPI, but I am
finding >clues it may have the 350TPI.  How can I id the engine (the VIN
says its a >305 and the car didn't have a 350 option) w/o opening it
up?  It won't pass >smog and if it is a 350, still using the 305 PROM
chip, it can lead to a rich >idle.  I know Hot Rod or Car Craft
published tips on how to tell the 2 apart, >if anyone can point me to
the issue, or give me some info, thanks in advance. >Please post to me
directly, as I had to unsubscribe (couldn't get through the >messages
fast enough for my sys admin).  And then the non-olds post will only
>show once!  Thanks,

Check your VIN and the following numbers apply:
F=305 LB9
H=305 LG4
G=305 L69

Next you can ID the block by looking at the stamping on the block pad on
the front passenger side of the engine right under the valve cover edge
(it may be hard to see the pad due to dirt and the A/C pump in the way.
Anyways here are the three letter suffix codes to look for (they will be
the last letters in the stamping sequence)

CDH=305, MT
CDJ=305, AT
CDN=305, AT
CDM=305, AT
CDR=305, AT
CFA=305, AT
CFB=305, AT
CFF=305, MT, california emissions
C7B=305, MT, Canada
C7A=305, AT, Canada
79N=305, Canada
79P=305, Canada
79R=305, Canada
79S=305, Canada

...There WERE 350's put into only 50 of the 1985 Iroc-Z's. These were
used as test vechicles for GM and the press.  Some have made it out into
the consumer market (easy way to spot one is to look for the VIN, these
50 cars do not have any.

Olds content: Thanks to everyone for the Winter storage tips, I am gonna
use some of them this weekend. Might get out the 442 one last time
Sunday, might be 70 and sunny! - - - - - - - - - - - - Jason Labay
Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com) or (jlabay@kent.edu) 93 Z/28......Patriot
Red, A4, G92(3.23), PEG2 a real muscle car...bone stock! 80 Olds 4-4-2
W-30 ( Actually a 4-3-1 W-30  in reality)..a pretend muscle car 75
Hurst/Olds W-25.....restoration project that is currently up for $sale$

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:18:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Fastest Olds  **non-olds content**

At 09:42 PM 11/25/96 -0400, you wrote:
>  Anyway he ended up with a HUGE 27 or so liter (yes,
>>that's 27,000 cc) V (or Inline, don't remember) 12 cylinder.
>
>     I wonder if he used grade 8 bolts back then....  :)
>
>      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
>      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
>      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
>      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
>      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
>      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
>             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)
>
>
>
OK experts.

1. When did hardware grading begin?

2. Heat treatment and alloys are the two ingredients of stronger, higher
tensil strength steel.  (At this point I'm considering a 0 pts carbon
steel, and a high carbon steel different alloys).  These elements were
well known before WWII, but not given the imperical attack that they
received during that war.  You can bet the head bolts, RR used, were a
great deal stronger than the ordinary hardware of the day.  The studs
F**d used to hold the heads on their Mod. 18 V8's were another matter
however.  They were undersize for the application; and probably no
better than what a Gr. 1 bolt would be today.  You can achieve a
stronger attachment by increasing the grade (tensil strength) or the
diameter.  So give RR a "+" and Henry a "-."

I've never been inside either an Allison or Merlin, but I've seen the
BMW V12 that was in the German Messerschmidt.  The bolts were
undoubtedly a superior alloy, but they were also drilled almost hollow
to reduce weight. They polished the manifolds to reduce weight, and
improve flow.  All that extra work and they will lost the war.

Also, the man that had his engine fall because the bolt broke had a
faulty bolt!  Which can happen with a Gr. 8 or a Gr. 1 or a paper clip.
I wouldn't blame it on the bolt.  Or as a second thought he was using a
bolt of much to small a diameter.  1/4 inch at each end is sufficient,
not overly so, but sufficient for any Oldsmobile motor ever made.  Use
at least 3/8" at each end, and lift the entire car.

The Wiz

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #382
********************************
 
