To:	oldsmobile-digest @ chebucto.ns.ca@INTERNET1
cc:	 
From:	oldsmobile-digest-owner @ chebucto.ns.ca@INTERNET1 @ ABTLAB
Date:	11/21/96 01:00:36 PM
Subject:	oldsmobile-digest V1 #375


oldsmobile-digest        Thursday, 21 November 1996     Volume 01 :
Number 375


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Ochs <76057.1404@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 23:19:33 -0400
Subject: re: GM transmission Trivia

>>Trivia:  What year did GM's Hydramatic division begin by making the
world's first fully >>automatic shifting transmission, what was the
division's name, and what brand >>vehicle did it go into?

Kevin Wong has it about right.  The first fully automatic was built in
1939 (I assume for the 1940 model year) for Oldsmobile.

What was the division's name at that time (note: it was not
Hydra-Matic).

Steve Ochs - Engineer - GM Powertrain - Transmission Division
(4T60/65-E) 1987 Olds 442 1976 Cutlass 'S'

------------------------------

From: Steve Ochs <76057.1404@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 23:19:30 -0400
Subject: Re: GM Transmissions

Marc Westerlind wrote:
>>I heard that some Th200's have plastic second gears... is it true?

No, there are no plastic gears in the 200 except for speedometer drive
and driven gears, and the governor driven gear.  Note: all GM
transmission have these three plastic gears. Automatic transmissions use
planetary gear sets as opposed to regular gears such as a manual
transmission has (Saturn and a few Japanese vehicles are exceptions).
The main weaknesses of the 200 are the stamped steel planetary gear
carriers and stamped steel clutch housings.  On stronger transmissions,
these are cast iron.
     Also, there is very little common between the THM-200C (3 speed)
and the 200-4R (4 speed).  The number is a relative size rating but
there is no comparison.  The 200 would fail in Malibus with V-6s but the
200-4R survives in Grand Nationals (read HP!).

Steve Ochs - Engineer - GM Powertrain - Transmission Division
(4T60/65-E) 1987 Olds 442 1976 Cutlass 'S'

------------------------------

From: Steve Ochs <76057.1404@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 23:19:34 -0400
Subject: re: GM Transmissions

Mark Odel wrote:
>>In your '87 442, I assume there is a 200R4.  Have you had trouble with
it? >>If so what did you end up doing?  I have an '86 442 and I have
been through >>three (3) 200R4 units, yes count them.   I finally gave
up an had a custom >>unit built in the old case (big time wife
acceptance factor problem).  Any >>comments on why the 200R4 is so weak?

I have 60,000 original miles on my 200-4R and it performs great.  In a
stock '84-'87 442, the transmission should hold up fine.  Yes, it is not
real strong in stock form behind anything more than 200 hp, but it can
be built to take up to 400 hp.  What were your problems or failures?

Steve Ochs - Engineer - GM Powertrain - Transmission Division
(4T60/65-E) 1987 Olds 442 1976 Cutlass 'S'





------------------------------

From: Dan Williams <dr_olds@pitnet.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:38:58 -0400
Subject: Re: LT4 (was: Hurst/Pontiac???)

While we are on all of this ch*vy talk.  Does anybody know if there is a
 97 Camaro SS?  BTW - The new 97 Camaros finally have some decent
looking rims on them (pretty much like the 96 SS rims).

- -Dan

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@sequent1.providence.edu>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 23:48:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Starting an Aurora Club

At 07:29 PM 11/20/96 -0500, you wrote:
[snip]
>Most car clubs live, breath and have a life because members need and
want >to talk about restoring cars and need a place to show-off their
hard work >once they finally complete their cars.  Solving mechanical
challenges, >finding parts, and driving around a hot car keeps the
club going.

True, very true. Do you think I'd talk to these kind of people
otherwise??? *Especially* those Toro guys! ;)

>If Olds started an Aurora Club, what do you think could or would be the
 >common "bonding" factor for members?

Hmmm, stock options, second homes, paying their children's college
tuition? (ok, ok, I had to say it...)

>Do you think a club would be
>successful and would any of you want to belong?

I think you'd *have* to be successful to belong to such a club!

>I'd love to hear your comments on the club and what you think of the
>Aurora.  Email address: hkroner@itagroup.com

The Aurora makes a great Lexus.

You have to realize, given the options available, for the price of a
single Olds Aurora, you could buy an immaculate W-30 Convertible, plus a
'72 Hurst/Olds, *plus* a #1 condition '66 Toronado for when you have to
attend a classy function. Oh, plus a Quad-4 powered Achieva SCX for
efficient commuting. Plus a year's maintenance on all of these.

Given these options, many on this list would probably choose those four
cars over a single Aurora. Some would choose the Aurora, but I wouldn't,
even if I could afford it.
_______________________________________________________ Dr. Robert Barry
MailTo:RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu Theology Dept, Providence College,
Providence, RI 02918

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 00:17:13 -0400
Subject: Re: LT4 (was: Hurst/Pontiac???)

Yes there is a 97 Camaro SS, even a ragtop version. There is also a 30th
anniversary one that is supposed to resemble the 69 Pace car Z/28. That
is a very beautiful car complete with houndsooth interior (a local
dealer has one) the rims on the 97 are nice. I was going to buy a 97 Z28
SS but couldn't pass up saving close to $10,000 by buying the 18,000
mile 93 Z/28 which can keep up with the SS with only a few bolt on mods.


Olds content (since all I am writing about anymore is Chevy): The 442 is
up for the winter in the garage:(

I do find it amazing though how powerful the LT1 Chevy 350 in my 93 Z/28
is compared to the Olds 350 in my 80 442. A BIG difference.....any
thoughts on why besides being a smog motor?

At 05:38 PM 11/20/96 -0400, Dan Williams wrote:
>While we are on all of this ch*vy talk.  Does anybody know if there is
a >97 Camaro SS?  BTW - The new 97 Camaros finally have some decent
looking >rims on them (pretty much like the 96 SS rims). - - - - - -
- - - - - - Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com) or
(jlabay@kent.edu) 93 Z/28......Patriot Red, A4, G92(3.23),
QLC....no-mods yet! 80 Olds 4-4-2  W-30, white, ( Actually a 4-3-1 W-30
in reality)

------------------------------

From: WMACHINES@aol.com
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 00:15:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Batten heads

In a message dated 96-11-20 21:00:28 EST, you write:

<< I was over a friends house the other night and I was thumbing through
a
 Popular Hotrodding magazine and saw an ad for"Hi flow  Olds street
heads"
 made by Batten, they are avaiable in  iron or aluminum. Have you, or
 anyone else out there priced these or have any experience with them??
the
 ad also claimed that they flow 25% better than "C" heads!! >>

I have experience with Batten Olds Heads.  Batten is located in
Romulus Michigan. They are about 10 miles from my house.
The Aluminum heads they sell are hi-flow race heads that cost
1600.00 for bare castings.  This means no valves or springs and
no cut on the vavle seats.  The cast iron heads are like the alum
but made more for street use and weight a little more, I can not
remember the cost for them.  These heads are 100 times better than
"C" heads and any other castings.  If you need more info, e-mail me
direct and I will get more info since they are basicly down the street.

W Machines  from Detroit MI (Mark Prince)
72 442 W-30

------------------------------

From: WMACHINES@aol.com
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 00:23:18 -0400
Subject: Re: 68' 442 motor mounts(Was Re: 1970 cutlass engine swap)

In a message dated 96-11-20 20:43:09 EST, you write:

<< Thanks for the advice.  Another question..
 The 68 442/4speed I just picked up is minus engine and trans.  The
FRAME
 mounts(where the motor mounts bolt to) are still attached to the frame.

 They extend forward of the front crossmember by about 2-3 inches.  Half
 of the mount is hanging out in space.  I've never seen anything like
 this.  Is this stock?
 --  >>

No that isn't right, the frame mounts should be located as follow,
350 frame mounts in the center of the frame crossover and 400,425,455
mounts are toward the rear of the crossover, not hanging over though.
All three bolts and bolt holes are used.

W Machines Mark Prince  313 336-8135 call me anytime or e-mail me

------------------------------

From: "bemet" <bemet@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 00:12:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Looking for Seatbelt ('70 442)

I didn't pay incredibly close attention to the diagrams which I believe
are from the Assembly Manual, and my car is in the body shop now getting
a lot of work done including the belts, but essentially they are
attached behind the rounded plastic parts that are at the sides of the
back seats by the convertible top well.

- ----------
> From: Joe Nall <joe@nall.com>
> To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
> Subject: Re: Looking for Seatbelt ('70 442)
> Date: Tuesday, November 19, 1996 9:36 AM
>
> bemet wrote:
> >
> > There's a guy who advertises in Hemmings who makes shoulder belts.
He's out > > of Ohio and his ad has been in the Oldsmobile section under
seat belts. I > > was able to buy front and rear shoulder belts for a 71
convertible (turns > > out BOTH front and rear shoulder belts were
options). He doesn't advertise > > every month, but  I think he was in
there within the last month or 2. If > > you can't find his ad, and
you're still looking let me know, and I'll look > > for it for you. > > >
How do the front shoulder belts attach/work?  I have a 70 Cutlass conv. >
that currently does not have front (or rear) shoulder belts and would >
like to add them. > > Joe Nall - joe@nall.com >

------------------------------

From: WMACHINES@aol.com
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 00:27:26 -0400
Subject: Re: 1970 cutlass engine swap

In a message dated 96-11-20 21:26:34 EST, you write:

<< I am running "Blackjack" headers on my car and they clear everything
 (except the brake valve which I had to move to the top of the frame).
I

 I definetly agree with Mark, get the Hooker Super comps, They
aredesigned
 much better than the Blackjacks, and they are available in different
tube
 diameters. The old saying holds true "you get what you pay for" when it

 comes to headers.......

 Steve >>

 I need to add something to this, with the 1 7 / 8 primary tube headers
on my car, the headers clear the Brake valve that is located on the side
of the frame.  With Hookers, I did not have to touch the brakes, frame
or headers and do any mods. Thought I should share that
Regards    W MACHINES(Mark)

------------------------------

From: "Curt {josh please don't erase" <jaakers@vt.edu>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 03:42:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Wrong Person!

James Z Kreager wrote:
>
> I just wanted to inform you that I got a couple of e-mails from
> you today on my account, but I don't think that I am the one
> that you want to send this to.  My e-mail address is
> kreagerj@gunet.georgetown.edu   I got messages like yours
> concerning cars from about five other people, so if you can
> get into contact with them and give them this same
> message, I would greatly appreciate it.  Thank you for your
> time.Please god don't send me any more.

------------------------------

From: Scholar <jev114@email.psu.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 01:08:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Batten heads

At 12:15 AM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 96-11-20 21:00:28 EST, you write:
>
><< I was over a friends house the other night and I was thumbing
through a > Popular Hotrodding magazine and saw an ad for"Hi flow  Olds
street heads" > made by Batten, they are avaiable in  iron or aluminum.
Have you, or > anyone else out there priced these or have any
experience with them?? the > ad also claimed that they flow 25% better
than "C" heads!! >> > >I have experience with Batten Olds Heads.  Batten
is located in >Romulus Michigan. They are about 10 miles from my house.
 >The Aluminum heads they sell are hi-flow race heads that cost
>1600.00 for bare castings.  This means no valves or springs and >no
cut on the vavle seats.  The cast iron heads are like the alum >but made
more for street use and weight a little more, I can not >remember the
cost for them.  These heads are 100 times better than >"C" heads and any
other castings.  If you need more info, e-mail me >direct and I will get
more info since they are basicly down the street. > >W Machines  from
Detroit MI (Mark Prince) >72 442 W-30 > > i would like so info on
these heads for 455! just a phone number will do! thanks Jeff

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:14:38 -0400
Subject: Re: LT4 (was: Hurst/Pontiac???)

At 06:31 PM 11/20/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>> ...The LT4 Jason spoke about probably won't make it into the car as
it was >> built for the ZR1 vette which is out of production, although
I think you >> can still buy the LT4 as a crate motor, not sure
though... >> >>           No, I disagree.  The LT4 is a
derivative of the LT1, which >>           is the good ol' small block
Chevy.  The LT1 was the 300 >>           horse unit, the LT4 is the 330
horse unit.  The brand new >>           SBC is the LS1, due out in the
97 Vette. > >	I read somewhere that the LT-4 was actually a Lotus
designed DOHC >motor (maybe even Lotus built) specifically for the ZR-1.
But, my memory >isn't that good, so I could be off on this one (didn't
really pay that >much attention either, I mean, it's a Chubby :) > >	
>				Scott >			1960 
Oldsmobile Rocket 98 > > > I think it was a Lotus
design, but weren't the actually fabricated by Mercury Marine?

Cliff Feiler

------------------------------

From: "Curt {josh please don't erase" <jaakers@vt.edu>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 04:18:06 -0400
Subject: Stop

I did not subscribe to be a part of the list. Please take me off
the list. I don't want any more e-mails.

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:21:04 -0400
Subject: Re: More on motor mounts

At 06:32 PM 11/20/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Not to beat a dead horse here, but I believe I can shed some light on
motor >mounts.  Vulcanization is indeed the rubber curing process, but
is not >responsible for bonding the rubber to the metal.  The rubber to
metal

Snip>>
>
> _____
>|  |  |* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>|  |  | Aaron Neumann St. Marys, OH  *
>|  |  | neumann.12@osu.edu           *
>| /|\ | 72 Delta 88 Royale Conv.     *
>|/_|_\|* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *	
>

Aaron,

Thank you for the update on this process.  I always like for people to
point out errors in my submissions.  I saw rubber bonded to metal pieces
being made by the Plumley Rubber Co., in their plant, at Morristown,
Tennessee; about ten or fifteen years ago, and it did not appear to have
an additional bonding agent applied, but certainly could have.

Cliff Feiler

------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:27:11 -0400
Subject: Re: 442 Station Wagons?

Tom,
I was trying to be nice. There is no such thing as a W31 option for '72.
There were no 442 wagons. The station wagon my friend has does have the
FE2 suspension, with the 455/400 engine and trans. I was special
ordered by the original owner, and he did specify Corvette white paint,
which was not a color offered by Oldsmobile.

Art Fuller

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:42:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Weekend almost disaster

At 12:56 AM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>> > In NH it is illegal to plumb live oil pressure into passenger
>> > compartment. Unless the car was factory equipped.
>>
>> I've never heard of this.  It seems uncharacteristic in the extreme
>> that the "Live Free or Die" state would have such a law...
>> I don't think anyone has been stopped or busted for this but if the
>inspection station spots the line they will not pass the car. Then you
>will have to either remove it or walk.  The reason is because of the
fire > hazzard should the line break or catch fire. I would guess that
it would >cause a real bad burn if that earlier post had been burning
when it was >spraying all over the inside of the car. (note also that
"unless factory >equipped") > Ah, come on; fire hazard?  Get a cup of
motor oil and a throwaway (lp gas) cigarette lighter and play the fire
on the oil until the fuel runs out.  If you can get that stuff to burn,
before the fuel runs out, hurry and call the oil's manufacturer, because
what he put in the can ain't for the crankcase!

The only way you can get motor oil to burn is:

        1. Atomize it, such as is done in a home furnace oil burner.

        2. Wick it, such as in an old kerosene lamp

        3. Get it very, very ,very, very, very, very, very, very hot

For all intents and purposes crankcase oil is virtually fireproof.
After playing the cigarette lighter on the oil as mentioned above, go
and get a blow torch and try it.  All you will get in either case is a
little fire playing around the contact point of the additive flame.

The item listed in number 3 above, is about as close to possible in an
automobile that there is.  One and 2 are downright difficult.

I guess as a thought, and obviously the one the state of New Hampshire
was thinking about, was that the broken oil pressure gauge line is
spraying oil all thru the interior of the car.  It is now soaked into
the upholstery, and the upholstery is acting as a wick.  Ok...

Sounds good to me; but them so does Pavrotti!

Cliff Feiler

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:47:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Old Cars ads

At 03:13 AM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I just read in Old Cars Weekly the following ads:
>
>	1967 Olds 442 ht, was 4-spd., not much left, good title.  $350 
	or
>trade for Triumph Trident parts.  815-784-2217.
>
>	1967 Olds 442 convertible minus engine.  Auto, power bench seat, 	good
>title.  $700 or trade for Triumph Trident parts.  	815-784-2217.
>
>	1972 Olds Vista wagon, runs, drives, stops, 350,air, disc 
	brakes,
>rusty.  Will separate.  Good front clip, $600.  	847-526-9096.
>
>	1972 Olds Toronado complete, body rust, rebuild or parts, $300.
>804-239-9096. IL.
>
>	1977 Buick Estate 403 V8, chrome wheels, sun rood, loaded, good
>driveline, rusty sheetmetal, $150.  216-238-8469.
>
>What do Triumph Trident parts look like & where in the world is
>Illinois?
>
>Bill Culp
>Decatur, Alabama
>
>From Alabama, Illinois is not that hard to find.  Go North (yhou may
follow migratory waterfowl in the fall) and when you find a large lake,
one to big to swim across, chances are you are near by.

The Wiz

------------------------------

From: WMACHINES@aol.com
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:53:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Batten heads phone number

In a message dated 96-11-21 00:12:22 EST, you write:

<< i would like so info on these heads for 455! just a phone number will
do!
 thanks >>

313 946-9850 is the number for Batten if anybody else needs
more info I can try and help.  But here is the number for all
you motorheads.

W MACHINES(Mark Prince)
72 442 W-30

------------------------------

From: Dennis Johnson <dwjohnso@sunbird.usd.edu>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:53:12 -0400
Subject: RE: Damn power loss problems again

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBD73D.FE491580
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- ----------
From: 	Dennis Johnson
Sent: 	Wednesday, November 20, 1996 6:11 PM
To: 	'oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca'
Subject: 	RE: Damn power loss problems again

>racing to work (literally)...push the pedal...seem to lose
power.,,let=20 >off the gas it came back...not getting enough gas
(shouldn't since I=20 >had fuel pump replace)

more likely problem is a lean mixture...starving the engine when the =
butterflies open...timing set up properly? No vacuum leaks?
Andrew C. Green=20

...You may be experiencing vapor lock..dj=20

Me again.  I doubt that this would be it but you might also check for
a blocked gas tank vent.  I have seen cars slowed to a crawl because
they could no longer siphon fuel from the tank.  This, however, does
not randomly come and go and you should also be able to hear an
audible "thunk" when you open the tanks filler cap.  Some engines
have enough power that they collapse the tank and you then have a
9=BD gallon tank instead of 18.
dj
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------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 02:26:21 -0400
Subject: Re: 442 Station Wagons?

The owner of the wagon in the So Cal Chapter has the build sheet if I'm
not mistaken and he had a vintage 72 article on the three cars produced.
I had seen that article W*A*Y back and it registered, but I didn t
re-read it.


I have to try and get a hold of this guy again - he has a spare V-C I
need to see if he'd consider parting with as I've got guys calling me
interested in buying them if they could just find decent ones.


Once I find out how he validates his wagon again (next meet probably)
I'll relay to the list.




Lisa Madsen


<color><param>8080,0000,8080</param>Heavy Metal Forever - '67 Delta 88 &
'72 Vista Cruiser

</color>

Please E-Mail me at-----:
<bold><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>Lisa@hotglass.com

</color></bold>

My Web-Page-----:
<bold><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>http://exo.com/~jht/olds/</col
or></bold>

------------------------------

From: Ryan Hehn <RYANH@docker.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 02:23:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Omega transmission

Thomas Stoner wrote:
> Ryan,
>
> I worked at Hydramatic's Ypsilanti, Michigan plant from 1976 until
> 1981 and I have some bad news for you.  If the oil pan on your
> transmission is stamped "METRIC", it's a THM200.  As I recall, these
> went into production at about the same time I hired in.  You may have
> some of my parts in that transmission, so heaven help you.  You're
> probably going to need it.
>
> Tom Stoner
> Ann Arbor, MI

I haven't checked the oil pan for a "METRIC" stamp... "METRIC" was
marked on the bell-housing (which is blue BTW).

Oh well, the transmission is still being used with a 305 so it's no big
deal (at the moment, anyway)!

Thanks for the reply,

Ryan
ryanh@docker.com

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@sequent1.providence.edu>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 02:22:21 -0400
Subject: Re: 1970 cutlass engine swap

At 11:27 PM 11/20/96 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 96-11-20 21:26:34 EST, you write:
>
><< I am running "Blackjack" headers on my car and they clear everything
 > (except the brake valve which I had to move to the top of the
frame).  I [snip] >frame.  With Hookers, I did not have to touch the
brakes, frame or headers >and do any mods.

The Blackjacks I had on my '70 SX rubbed that junction block as well; I
had considered moving it to the top of the frame in order to run
headers, but believe that I will now go with the Hooker Comp headers.
I'll pay the $$$ for the part that works. What sizes do they come in,
and what are the part #'s for them? And what's a good price/source for
them? _______________________________________________________ Dr. Robert
Barry  MailTo:RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu Theology Dept, Providence
College, Providence, RI 02918

------------------------------

From: Dennis Johnson <dwjohnso@sunbird.usd.edu>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 02:38:30 -0400
Subject: RE: Car Life Magazine

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBD744.52124E60
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Subject: 	Car Life Magazine
>>Car and Driver magazine bought out Car Life magazine somewhere in >>at
= ime frame. =20

...was Motor Trend...faithful subscriber to Car Life...great =
magazine... tongue in cheek articles...factories not considered =
gods...for their advertising revenue.
When...bought out, Peterson/Motor Trend did it...filled...my =
subscription for Car Life with Motor Trend...no comparison...No =
humor...No gusto.
"Enjoy the Ride!"  Bob Handren        OCA/OCF# 7728
'67 W-30 Modified     '70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

  Remember the Winnebago Road Slug outfitted by Holman and Moody
  for Baja?  They put a seat belt over the pot to keep everything where
= it
  was supposed to be!  Funny bunch of guys!!!  Too bad, indeed!
  dj

  PS, anyone want to try this ad?  It has been in the Sioux Falls, South
=

  Dakota Argus Leader for a week or better and no one seems to bite.
  "59 Chevy El Camino, restorable, and 59 Impala, 4-door hardtop parts
  car, $2750. =20
  69 Olds 442, needs restoration, No price given.=20
  Phone (605) 338-7418 evenings only.

  You now know as much about this as I do.
  dj =20




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------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 02:44:14 -0400
Subject: Private reply

Tim Churchill & Big Red:  You'd sent me a message regarding my '67.  I
tried replying twice and both messages came back as failed mail.  Send
me your e-mail address again and I'll reply without boring everyone else
to tears.


Thanks!

Lisa Madsen


<color><param>8080,0000,8080</param>Heavy Metal Forever - '67 Delta 88 &
'72 Vista Cruiser

</color>

Please E-Mail me at-----:
<bold><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>Lisa@hotglass.com

</color></bold>

My Web-Page-----:
<bold><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>http://exo.com/~jht/olds/</col
or></bold>

------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 02:44:16 -0400
Subject: Wagons wanted

I sent a message a couple days ago that apparently never made it - but
I've got a few people who are looking for Vista Cruisers - '65-'72 - in
decent shape.  Hemmings & Old Cars have yielded none to date that have
lived up to their advertisements.


Please please please - if anyone comes across one for sale - let me
know. I've got a guy in Connecticut looking and two guys on the West
Coast-Southwest looking.


Thanks much -



Lisa Madsen


<color><param>8080,0000,8080</param>Heavy Metal Forever - '67 Delta 88 &
'72 Vista Cruiser

</color>

Please E-Mail me at-----:
<bold><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>Lisa@hotglass.com

</color></bold>

My Web-Page-----:
<bold><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>http://exo.com/~jht/olds/</col
or></bold>

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 03:37:48 -0400
Subject: Vikings

Is there any Viking expertise available here?

Cliff Feiler
1984 Delta 88 w/455
1979 Delta 88 w/diesel
1931 Patrician Sedan
1931 4-door
1930 Viking Cabriolet
1929 Viking 4-door

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 03:59:27 -0400
Subject: GM Trivia

This one came in via private

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 04:18:47 -0400
Subject: Re: GM Trivia

>This one came in via private
>
>

Uh, OK.  I give up, now.  Do we have to make this one up ourselves, or
will you give us the question later?  (Oh, and will we need to make our
answer in the form of a question?)  Jeapordy theme in background, etc.
etc...   :)

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: "Peg O'Connor" <peg@grove.ufl.EDU>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 04:41:22 -0400
Subject: Re: cutlass

> I have a 1979 olds cutlass.  With a 403 and a th400 and i am looking
for a > company that just sell olds parts.  Like heads, superchargers,
headers, > high rise manifolds, and all that good stuff.  thanks

Good luck.  Shoot, if you find a place like that, let *me* know.  I've
been trying to find parts for my '78 Calais, but it's too new for Year
One and too old (believe it or not) for a majority of junkyards around
here. Stuck in a generation gap (sigh) . . . .

8)
peg

------------------------------

From: "Mark Cornea (R)" <mcornea@ford.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 07:26:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Batten heads phone number

On Nov 21,  1:53am, WMACHINES@aol.com wrote:
> Subject: Re: Batten heads phone number
> In a message dated 96-11-21 00:12:22 EST, you write:
>
> << i would like so info on these heads for 455! just a phone number
will do! >  thanks >> > > 313 946-9850 is the number for Batten if
anybody else needs > more info I can try and help.  But here is the
number for all > you motorheads. > > W MACHINES(Mark Prince) > 72 442
W-30 > >-- End of excerpt from WMACHINES@aol.com

  	When you call Batten, ask to speak to BRUCE, he's the guy that has
helped quite a few of us in the area.

cooler ta cruise,                                _   _
                                                 _| | |
       Mark Cornea (Dr Decal) `70 442 stick \/\/ _| |_| red

             (MCORNEA@pt8228.pto.ford.com)

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 08:27:47 -0400
Subject: Re: LT4 (was: Hurst/Pontiac???)

Joe Padavano states:

>           No, I disagree.  The LT4 is a derivative of the LT1, which
>           is the good ol' small block Chevy.  The LT1 was the 300
>           horse unit, the LT4 is the 330 horse unit.  The brand new
>           SBC is the LS1, due out in the 97 Vette.

In the latest Car & Driver, in the article on the new 'vette, I seem
to recall them referring to this new engine as the LT5....

LT ==> Low Tech? :)



Tim Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'89 Cadillac Fleetwood, a.k.a. 'Der KinderWagen'
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: <HISFB@stud.hum.aau.dk>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 09:16:43 -0400
Subject: Unsubscribe

Hi I want to unsubscribe . what do i do.

------------------------------

From: Kurt Heinrich <old442@erols.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 09:16:32 -0400
Subject: Hurst/Pontiac

OK, I know this isn't Olds related, but here I go.
I've seen this message running arounf about the new H/P (looks and
sounds funny), and people have replied about other Pontiacs from Hurst,
but I haven't seen mention to what I think is the first H/P.  Back in
65, Hurst produced a single GTO.  It was call the GeeTO Tiger and was
given away in a contest.  The car was Hurst Gold with Hurst wheels and,
of course, a Hurst shifter.  That was all they did to it so in essence
it was an appearance package only.

Kurt
71 442

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 09:26:08 -0400
Subject: Tridents (Was Re: Old Cars ads)

Decatur Bill queries:

> >What do Triumph Trident parts look like & where in the world is
> >Illinois?

The Triumph Trident was a motorcycle, but one quite different from the
Triumph 500, 650 and 750 twins that were their mainstays.  The Trident
was a 3 cylinder (hence the name), with a bulkier frame than their twin
models.  They made it for maybe 3 - 4 years and dropped it.  It did not
have a reputation for being very reliable, as opposed to their twins.

I had a '72 Trident (as well as a '70 650 TR6C Trophy).  Wish I still
had the Trident, as I'd trade it for those '67 442s... only thing it'd
be good for :)



Tim Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'89 Cadillac Fleetwood, a.k.a. 'Der KinderWagen'
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: Frank Boerger <103454.317@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 09:31:39 -0400
Subject: FW: Weekend almost disaster

>> Why would air in the line cause a gauge mis-reading?  Wouldn't air in
a >> closed hydraulic system compress and go to the liquid pressure in
the line? >> Just plain curiousity? > For the same reason that you don't
ant air in your brake lines. Air doesn't compress at the same rate that
liquid does.

Sorry, but the original answer/question was right.  The air will
compress to become equal to the pressure applied by the oil.  The reason
that you don't want air on your brake lines is that by the time you get
the air compressed to equilibrium, you've run out of peddle.  Factory
equipment use "air-over-hydralics" for control and measurement all hte
time.


>also in the oil line
>you get vairations in pressure readings as the engine rpm's change. The
 >difference in compression rates will make the guage read the changes
at a >different rate than they are acually occuring..

Don't think so...not been my experience...the bourbon tube is almost
never ever filled completely with oil after use...there's always some
air in there../unless they built and soldered the thing in an oil bath !

>Another point on this oil pressure question, in trade school we learned
 >that too much oil pressure can be just as detramental as not enough.
>pressure much over 50 lbs (unless the bearings and journals are
designed >for it) does not protect the bearing surfaces from wear. This
is because >the oil is screaming through so fast that it cannot
lubracate the >bearings.

Let's see...if one molecule of oil leaves very soon after arriving...and
another is right behind it to take it's place...I've heard excess oil
"velocity" can cause foaming, which can cause the oil the loose
lubricity...

>Also don't forget that another function of the oil is to help
>cool the surfaces, and if it is traveling too fast to absorb and carry
>off the heat the bearings will fail.

Let's see...if one molecule of oil leaves very soon after arriving...and
another is right behind it to take it's place...this kinda  sounds like
that coolant traveling  too fast thread...

Frank Boerger//Tallahassee/FL

------------------------------

From: david wyatt <Wyatt_David_L@Lilly.COM>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 09:48:02 -0400
Subject: Re: 68 Motor mounts

I may be able to shed some light on your motor mounts. A few years ago a
 friend of mine purchased a 70 G.T.O. to restore. It did not have an
engine in it when he got it but it had the motor mounts moved forward as
 you describe. In this case they had used 1/2 inch steel plates to
relocate the mounts instead of letting the front of them hang in space.
The reason the mounts were moved was to install a big block ch**y boat
anchor. I do know that the front crossmember is different on a 70 G.T.O.
 than the one on my 70 4-4-2. The Ch**elle may be different as well. I
had a 68 4-4-2 and it had the same crossmember as my 70. So..... Your
car may have been owned by the evil Dr. Crossbreed at one time. I think
we ought to buy ch**ys and upgrade them with Olds power. But that would
be a waste of good engines.

Dave Wyatt
70  4-4-2

------------------------------

From: Frank Boerger <103454.317@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:01:55 -0400
Subject: FW: Motor mounts

On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, david wyatt wrote:
> Back in the early 70s GM cars of the 60s had some problems with motor
> mounts separating at the worst times. This usually resulted in stuck
> throttles (no cable, solid linkage), ruined radiators, torn wires,
ect.

>A friend has a '68 Camaro with a 350 that he bought new and which was
>recalled a couple of years later due to faulty motor mounts. It is
>interesting to see the GM factory fix for the problem:

> Either a chain or cable from the frame to the
> engine on the drivers side. just leave enough slack for normal
movement.

>They chose a heavy braided steel cable. Not 100% sure, but I think they
>did it on both sides. Looks just like a neat job by a racer, but sure
not >like a factory piece, even though it is.

I had the first "bad-motor" mount experience that our local Ch*vy dealer
had seen.  It was covered under that massive recall.

The symptoms were, according to the nootice, " As you turn left and
accelerate, the steering locks to the left and the vehicle may
accelerate uncontrollably"...and it happened just that way in our old
'67 Ch*vy wagon, with a 283//powerglide.....what a rush on a Saturday
night !!  You'd be surprised how fast you can grab the key hanging out
of the dash !!  They installed the safety-cable loops from the engine
to,  I think, the upper control arm shaft...

Frank Boerger//Tallahassee/FL

------------------------------

From: "Chris R. Smetana" <Chris_R._Smetana@DADC.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 04:19:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Hurst/Pontiac???

so I got my numbers screwed up, so sue me, LT-1, LT1, LT4, LT5 , LS1,
AK47 or is that AK-47 anyway the car isn't in production yet so does it
really matter? Anyway the four is right next to the five on the
keyboard isn't it? (trying to come up w/excuses)

------------------------------

From: Todd Hall <thall@en.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:12:36 -0400
Subject: Looking for 56' Super 88

I've been looking for a 1956 Super 88 convertible with not much luck so
far. If anyone comes across one or sees one in the paper for sale please
email me directly or post a message to the list. Thanks!


Todd Hall
mailto:thall@en.com
Cleveland, OH
1972 4-4-2




------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:14:23 -0400
Subject: LT5  (was: LT4 (was: Hurst/Pontiac???))


No to my knowledge from reading Chevy Craft it was built by GM. The
ZR1's LT5 was built by a foreign car company that I can't remember.... -
- - - - - - - - - - - Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com) or
(jlabay@kent.edu) 93 Z/28......Patriot Red, A4, G92(3.23),
QLC....no-mods yet! 80 Olds 4-4-2  W-30, white, ( Actually a 4-3-1 W-30
in reality)

          Geeze, you Chevy guys just can't remeber anything ;)

          The LT5 was _designed_ by Lotus, back when GM owned them,
          but it was _built_ by Mercury Marine (thus opening a
          tremendous hole for Charlie Buehner cracks about boat
          anchors).

          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: "Chris R. Smetana" <Chris_R._Smetana@DADC.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 04:55:40 -0400
Subject: Clarification & SB/BB gasket sets

Wow, I finally got some messages sent that added my .02 worth, thought I
was having outgoing mail problems but the messages finally made it,
twice, and I may have started a H/Pontiac controversy. Anyway, now on
to the Oldsmobile question.  I have a 69 W-31 350 and a 72 455 and I
need to do a gasket overhaul on both.  I have a friend who knows someone
 who can get TRW/Sealed Power/Speed Pro/Carter parts pretty much as
cost (grinning happily).  I was looking thru the catalog for the part
numbers for gaskets sets and noticed that 1968-1971 350 with outside
air induction has the exact same part number for a gasket set (not
including valley pan) as the 1968-1972 455.  FYI, part # 260-1008.  The
valley pans have different part numbers, 260-4010 for the 350 and
260-4021 for the 455.  Is it possible the engines can have the same
part numbers for a gasket set.  I thought with one being a small block
and the other being a big block there would be some differences in
gaskets.  Can someone shed some light on this subject for me please, no
light puddles though as I just bought new shoes? FWIW, with Pontiac
engines, there is no 'real' small block and big block (you can put a
350 2 bbl intake on a 455, for example, or more commonly a 389
tri-power set up on a 455) so I could possibly see that there might be 1
part number for a gasket set with Pontiacs, no I didn't check the
catalog to verify this.

Chris Smetana
Terre Haute, IN
1969 W-31 Cutlass
2 1966 GTO's - one is a parts car
1971 Skylark custom convertible - still for sale
1989 Mustang LX 5.0 hatchback

------------------------------

From: "Thomas Stoner" <TGSTONER@mailgw2.pmr.med.umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:35:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Header Horror Tale

Tom,

I can't wait.  Tell us the rest.  Were you killed?

*****
Bill,

Of course not.  Although I abused that car at nearly every
opportunity, it always protected me from harm.  Luckly the only
thing in front of me at that first red light, was the red light and
open space, so I was able to get her stopped without rear-ending one
of those exploding Pintos of the era.  Since it was very late at
night there wasn't any opposing traffic and I didn't get myself
T-boned when I entered the intersection against the light.  The rear
brakes still worked, and although they normally were only called upon
to contribute about 35% of the effort, they did get the car stopped.
Actually, this happened mid-week and back in those days I was always
without much cash just before payday, so I couldn't afford to get the
damage fixed right away.  As I recall, I continued to drive the car
with rear brakes only until the following week, when I could afford
the repair without foregoing food or gasoline purchases in exchange.

Tom Stoner
Ann Arbor, MI
****************************************************
Thomas G. Stoner
Senior Computer Systems Specialist
MCIT - Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation
University of Michigan Medical Center
Ann Arbor, Michigan
tgstoner@mailgw2.pmr.med.umich.edu
****************************************************

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:31:48 -0400
Subject: Re: NOS in MD


I was living in MD when that law went into effect.  Have they changed to
an outright ban?...

          Actually, I can't say for sure.  Living in VA, I can't say
that I
          really investigated it fully.  I recall that there was some
          provision which allowed you to have the system installed if
you
          were driving the car the  track, for example, but the N2O line
to
          the bottle had to be disconnected, or something like that.  It

          always seemed to me that it wouldn't be particularly hard to
          conceal the system anyway (I always preferred the empty
Craftsman
          toolbox with the false bottom to cover the bottle in the
trunk).
          Besides, I always intended to route the plumbing under the
          manifold so it wouldn't show on my tripower manifold.

 ...Has MD changed the speed limits on the interstates over 55 yet?...

          At least they have on I-95 north of Baltimore.

  ...He's out now, right?...

          Uh, Bob, how do I break this to you...


          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30



------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:22:20 -0400
Subject: Re: 68' 442 motor mounts(Was Re: 1970 cutlass engine swap)

The 68 442/4speed I just picked up is minus engine and trans.  The FRAME
 mounts(where the motor mounts bolt to) are still attached to the
frame. They extend forward of the front crossmember by about 2-3
inches.  Half of the mount is hanging out in space.  I've never seen
anything like this.  Is this stock? - --
          Uh oh.  I hate to say this, but I have a sneaking suspicion
          that your car has a case of Chevyitis.  They definitely
          aren't stock Olds motor mounts.  Is the battery cable in
          place and if so, does it appear to be routed to the driver's
          side or the passenger side?  Olds motors have the starter on
          the driver's side, Chevy on the other.

          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:34:14 -0400
Subject: Re[2]: no longer a pig in the corners


I bought my '68 442 4-speed convertible for $1550; bought net tires
($200), did brakes ($50), purchased Magnum 500 wheels ($20), rear
suspension bushings ($30), & repaired rear wheel bearing ($20) = $1870

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

          But how long ago was that?

          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: Mark Odell <modell@isc.mds.lmco.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:45:39 -0400
Subject: re: GM Transmissions

Steve;

I was interested on your perspective as another late model 442 owner and
especially your opinion as a GM transmission employee.  Are you an
engineer?  I am, that is often my problem with production compromises.
It's a mater of perspective, as I am sure you are well aware.

My problems or failures....  (pardon the lengthy background but it
important to understand the whole picture.

I bought my '86 442 knowing full well that the trany was going to be a
problem.  I bought my '86 from the Penske corporation, who was having
trouble with 200R4s in the Grand National, 442 and Monte SS equipped
with factory tranys.  I have 62,437 original miles on my '86 442, I put
them on myself.  Presently I am on my third 200R4 unit.  The first went
at around 23,000, shortly after I modified the carb linkage and the
software.  I run after market stage 2 code from HyperTek, and have
modified the PROM myself even further on top of the HyperTek code.  The
results are interesting. It's a little more feisty then the average 307
'86 442, so I have been told by my trany guy.  I have never abused the
car, wouldn't dream of it, but heavy acceleration is fun, that's what
muscle cars are for (especially the real ones like a 68-72 442).  I
surmise that (1) the 200R4 just cannot take the extra engine output that
I have created and (2) was probably a mismatch for the 442, Grand
National and Monte SS from the beginning.  I have always assumed that I
just put my 200R4 over the edge with the carb and software** mods.

Within 5,000 miles after my modifications, I lost the 1-2 and 2-3 clutch
packs and the pump in the original trany.  I had a custom unit built for
me out of my original case and gears, the rest of the unit has been
replaced with custom racing parts.  [Torrington needle bearings, kevlar
coated clutch discs, stainless steel pump casing and rotor (125psi),
semi-auto valve body, and carbon fiber reinforced shafts.  The converter
is a 10 inch, not stock 12 and the vanes have all been mic'd and braised
into place to prevent wabble and hence loss in the turbine.  The pitch
on the vanes has been modified to increase flow and the converters'
torque output.]  I lost this custom trany about 10,000 later due to some
dirt that got into the unit somehow.  The dirt tore up the pump due to
increased tight tolerances for higher pressure output, resulting in
debris.  The debris was then pumped into the converter, causing the
rotor to come into contact with the stator, this created lots of debris
and destroyed the clutch packs.  A very disheartening experience that
took about 30 seconds!  I am now on my second high performance trany.
Very careful with the dirt.  Cannot drive in rain with the limited slip
rear, it gets away from me because the shifts are so tight.  But it is a
real fun vehicle.

I woud not trade my 442, despite the trany troubles.  I have wanted one
since I was about 12 and saw my first '71 442 convertable.  Maybe
someday I'll find a 68-72 442 to restore.  I just wish GM had provided
an optional transmission for my '86 instead of attempting to use the
200R4 (a marginal combination).  I would have spent the extra money.

I am considering doing a similar trany job to my '96 GMC Sierra - wife
permitting.

**   ( In addition to the modified HyperTek code that runs the car, I
have developed a neural network based algorithm that is
non-deterministic for engine tuning.  The algorithm employs a form of
artificial intelligence to tune the engine to achieve optimum
performance goals and has some very interesting performance increases as
per the simulation results.  I just have not figured out how to
implement the algorithm on the car without a PC laptop riding with me.
My neural network code is experimental and has never controlled the
car.)

At 11:19 PM -0400 11/20/96, Steve Ochs wrote:

>I have 60,000 original miles on my 200-4R and it performs great.  In a
stock >'84-'87 442, the transmission should hold up fine.  Yes, it is
not real strong >in stock form behind anything more than 200 hp, but it
can be built to take up >to 400 hp.  What were your problems or
failures? >



-
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------- - - Mark Odell - Muscle car enthusiast Sr. Technical  Staff,
Advanced Enginering Concepts Team, Lockheed Martin (my real life) 1986
Olds 442 1996 GMC Sierra Z71

------------------------------

From: "Chris Sparks (Mr. Ada)" <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:01:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Headers

I guess I'll show my ignorance.  What in the heck are headers and
where do they go?

Chris Sparks
68 442

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:08:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Vikings

C.R.F. wrote:
>
> Is there any Viking expertise available here?
>
> Cliff Feiler
> 1984 Delta 88 w/455
> 1979 Delta 88 w/diesel
> 1931 Patrician Sedan
> 1931 4-door
> 1930 Viking Cabriolet
> 1929 Viking 4-door

Cliff,

Sorry, my family is all German in background.  You might look in the
newspaper as a scruffy one is advertised regulary in the comic section.

Seriously, I have noticed this tag of yours every time you write and
envied the list.  Good luck in your Viking Quest.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: "Chris Sparks (Mr. Ada)" <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:17:00 -0400
Subject: Re: no longer a pig in the corners

Lloyd Culp wrote:

> I bought my '68 442 4-speed convertible for $1550; bought net tires
> ($200), did brakes ($50), purchased Magnum 500 wheels ($20), rear
> suspension bushings ($30), & repaired rear wheel bearing ($20) = $1870

I guess I am spending too much on my car.  Sometimes I wish I wouldn't
have bought it.  Money sure doesn't grow on trees!

Chris Sparks
68 442

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:24:48 -0400
Subject: Re: no longer a pig in the corners

JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com wrote:
>
>
> I bought my '68 442 4-speed convertible for $1550; bought net tires
> ($200), did brakes ($50), purchased Magnum 500 wheels ($20), rear
> suspension bushings ($30), & repaired rear wheel bearing ($20) = $1870
>
> Bill Culp
> Decatur, Alabama
>
>           But how long ago was that?
>
>           Joe Padavano
>           jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
>
>           66 442
>           68 W-30
>           69 H/O
>           70 W-30


Ok, Ok,  It was about 10 years ago.  I believe that I could repeat the
deed today w/about $1000 more dollars.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:38:59 -0400
Subject: Re: FW: Motor mounts

Frank reminisces:

> I had the first "bad-motor" mount experience that our local Ch*vy
dealer had > seen.  It was covered under that massive recall.

> ...and it happened just that way in our old '67 Ch*vy wagon, with
> a 283//powerglide.....what a rush on a Saturday night !!  You'd be
surprised how > fast you can grab the key hanging out of the dash !!
They installed the > safety-cable loops from the engine to,  I think,
the upper control arm shaft...

Been there, done that.  My only bad motor mount experiences have been in
Ch*vys.

Once when I was driving my Mom's '69 Caprice 327 -- lucky it was me, not
my Mom - -- and once in my friend's '66.

Never heard of it happenin' in an Olds, it must be inferior mounts in
those Ch*vys; after all, we all *know* it isn't due to superior
firepower on their part... :)




Tim Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'89 Cadillac Fleetwood, a.k.a. 'Der KinderWagen'
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: mrw@mil.emc.com (Marc Westerlind)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:52:11 -0400
Subject: My little olds expense list

I bought my 1970 cutlass supreme for $2200... I bought new wire and
battery cables ($50), edelbrock intake $250, rear spirngs $100, gas tank
$400 including labor, Jacobs electronics $350, Hedman Headers $250, $300
to install headers and modify exhaust, ummmm, battery - starter - $150,
stereo system $600, grant steering wheel $70, headlights - turn signal
lenses and lamps - backup light/neutral safety switch $70, B&M shift kit
$50, Auto meter gauges $100, and some other little things that I wont
bother geting into... total.... *drum roll*....


about $4940.00 - not too much

Marc Westerlind
1970 Cutlass Supreme

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:52:25 -0400
Subject: Re[2]: Weekend almost disaster

For all intents and purposes crankcase oil is virtually fireproof...

          Well, my BBC-powered crewcab dually (with 150K miles on the
          engine) tends to burn some oil.  As a result, I often find
myself
          adding oil through the valve...er, rocker arm cover fill port
          while at gas stops.  Since I am too lazy to use a funnel, I've

          gotten good at pouring the oil into the opening directly from
the
          plastic oil containers now in use.  Occasionally, I'll manage
to
          spill some, which runs straight down the valve cover and onto
the
          exhaust manifold.  On more than one occasion, this has burst
into
          a fairly impressive flame (tho, usually, it just smokes).

I guess as a thought, and obviously the one the state of New Hampshire
was thinking about,

          Your first mistake was assuming that any state legislature
          was thinking (OK, no more politics.  Sorry)

          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30


------------------------------

From: "Thomas Stoner" <TGSTONER@mailgw2.pmr.med.umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:55:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Bad Motor Mounts

I broke two or three of these in my mother's car - a 1965 Checker
Marathon.  (This is really getting away from Oldsmobile, isn't it?)
That car had a Chevy 283 coupled to a Borg-Warner 3 speed automatic,
and apparently Chevrolet motor mounts as well.  Of course, Checker
never had any sort of recall for them.  Anyway, maybe the fact that I
kept breaking her car help to win the parental approval that resulted
in my buying a '68 442 in the fall of that year.  (There, an
Oldsmobile thread has been established.)

Tom Stoner
Ann Arbor, MI

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:00:02 -0400
Subject: Re[2]: 442 Station Wagons?

The owner of the wagon in the So Cal Chapter has the build sheet if I'm
not mistaken and he had a vintage 72 article on the three cars
produced.  I had seen that article W*A*Y back and it registered, but I
didn t re-read it.

          These wouldn't be the Hurst/Olds wagons built for the 1972
          Indy 500, would they?  I think they were built for the use
          of the track doctor.  The Hurst Heritage book indicated that
          (as of 1984, when the book was written) one of the cars was
          owned by Dick Chrysler (of Car and Concepts - then parent
          company of Hurst) but it was in rough shape.

          The book indicated that these wagons were pretty much stock
          except for the H/O graphics.

          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: Kurt Heinrich <old442@erols.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:09:44 -0400
Subject: Re: FW: Motor mounts

> > I had the first "bad-motor" mount experience that our local Ch*vy
dealer had > > seen.  It was covered under that massive recall. >

> Never heard of it happenin' in an Olds, it must be inferior mounts in
those > Ch*vys; after all, we all *know* it isn't due to superior
firepower > on their part... :)

Sorry to say, but I had a mount go on my 72 Cutlass once when I floored
it to get on the highway.  All I heard was the fan blade scraping
against the fan shroud and backed off immediately.  Then I drove home
keeping my foot out of it.

Kurt
71 442

------------------------------

From: "Chris Sparks (Mr. Ada)" <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:17:32 -0400
Subject: Re: My little olds expense list

Marc Westerlind wrote:
>
> I bought my 1970 cutlass supreme for $2200... I bought new wire and
battery cables ($50), edelbrock intake $250, rear spirngs $100, gas tank
$400 including labor, Jacobs electronics $350, Hedman Headers $250, $300
to install headers and modify exhaust, ummmm, battery - starter - $150,
stereo system $600, grant steering wheel $70, headlights - turn signal
lenses and lamps - backup light/neutral safety switch $70, B&M shift kit
$50, Auto meter gauges $100, and some other little things that I wont > >
about $4940.00 - not too much

I guess I am starting to worry that I have exceeded the value of the
car.  I'll have to drive it for several years to get some of my money's
worth.

Chris Sparks
68 442

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:13:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Clarification & SB/BB gasket sets

At 04:55 AM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:

Snip>

>FWIW, with Pontiac engines, there is no 'real' small block and big
block (you >can put a 350 2 bbl intake on a 455, for example, or more
commonly a 389 >tri-power set up on a 455) so I could possibly see that
there might be 1 part >number for a gasket set with Pontiacs, no I
didn't check the catalog to verify >this. > >Chris Smetana >Terre
Haute, IN >1969 W-31 Cutlass >2 1966 GTO's - one is a parts car >1971
Skylark custom convertible - still for sale >1989 Mustang LX 5.0
hatchback > > There is an enormous amount of interchangability between
Olds engines from at least the 307 to the 455.  Not everything will
interchange, but many things will.

Sort of like what you said about the Poncho.

Cliff Feiler

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:14:35 -0400
Subject: Re: My little olds expense list

Lessee...

I paid $1500 for Big Red in '92... $150 for a new exhaust a coupla
months later ... $250 for a nice Pioneer Supertuner & speaks, $2300 for
paint and $600 for re-upholstering, all in '93... $350 for four new
Goodyear Eagle STs in '95... $75 for new re-pro front parking lens

I have also spent $100 for a new Edelbrock Performer manifold -- not on
the car at the moment, it's for that '64 330 that was given to me last
year), and around $300 for new interior panels, weatherstriping, etc,
some of which has been installed...

So, not including tune-ups and oil changes, I've spent around $5600
total.

I think it's a bah-gain :)



Tim Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'89 Cadillac Fleetwood, a.k.a. 'Der KinderWagen'
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:11:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Clarification & SB/BB gasket sets

Is it possible the engines can have the same part numbers for a gasket
set.

          Yep.  The SBO and BBO are (from a gasket standpoint, anyway)
          identical.  The oil pan rails, front cover, water pump, fuel
          pump, and even head gaskets are the same.  The major
          difference is the deck height of the block and thus the
          width of the intake (thus the difference in the intake tray
          gasket).

          In addition, when there _is_ a difference, it is usually
          cheaper for the gasket maker to just put one of each in the
          kit rather than to stock two different part numbers.

          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:17:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Header Horror Tale

At 10:35 AM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Tom,
>
>I can't wait.  Tell us the rest.  Were you killed?
>
>*****
>Bill,
>
>Of course not.  Although I abused that car at nearly every
>opportunity, it always protected me from harm.  Luckly the only
>thing in front of me at that first red light, was the red light and
>open space, so I was able to get her stopped without rear-ending one
>of those exploding Pintos of the era.  Since it was very late at
>night there wasn't any opposing traffic and I didn't get myself
>T-boned when I entered the intersection against the light.  The rear
>brakes still worked, and although they normally were only called upon
>to contribute about 35% of the effort, they did get the car stopped.
>Actually, this happened mid-week and back in those days I was always
>without much cash just before payday, so I couldn't afford to get the
>damage fixed right away.  As I recall, I continued to drive the car
>with rear brakes only until the following week, when I could afford
>the repair without foregoing food or gasoline purchases in exchange.
>
>Tom Stoner
>Ann Arbor, MI
>****************************************************
>Thomas G. Stoner
>Senior Computer Systems Specialist
>MCIT - Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation
>University of Michigan Medical Center
>Ann Arbor, Michigan
>tgstoner@mailgw2.pmr.med.umich.edu
>****************************************************
>
>
Legend said that the Rickenabcker was the first car with four wheel
brakes, and it didn't come about until well after WWI.  You can get by
with just rear wheel brakes at low speeds, but at todays speeds its
downright dangerous.

The Wiz

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:22:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Vikings

At 05:08 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>C.R.F. wrote:
>>
>> Is there any Viking expertise available here?
>>
>> Cliff Feiler
>> 1984 Delta 88 w/455
>> 1979 Delta 88 w/diesel
>> 1931 Patrician Sedan
>> 1931 4-door
>> 1930 Viking Cabriolet
>> 1929 Viking 4-door
>
>Cliff,
>
>Sorry, my family is all German in background.  You might look in the
>newspaper as a scruffy one is advertised regulary in the comic section.
>
>Seriously, I have noticed this tag of yours every time you write and
>envied the list.  Good luck in your Viking Quest.
>
>Bill Culp
>Decatur, Alabama
>
>
OK, wise guy.  Is ther any Oldsmobile Viking expertise out there?

Cliff Feiler

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:24:24 -0400
Subject: Re: FW: Weekend almost disaster

Frank Boerger wrote:
>
> Let's see...if one molecule of oil leaves very soon after arriving...
> and another is right behind it to take it's place...this kinda sounds
> like that coolant traveling too fast thread...

Sure does.  I think I'll just search & replace "water" with "oil" in the
 old posts and resend them.  It'll save us a lot of time.   ;)

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:27:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Interchangable body parts

At 10:58 AM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Hey Cliff,
>I'm not sure what a Viking is.  I love the 30's cars, and particularly
>the 40's cars (hey somebody's got to!) Some of the long disappeared
>marques, however, I've got absolutely no knowledge of.
>
>Clayton Pierce,
>zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu
>
Oldsmobile's top of the line V8 in 1929 and 1930.  I just bought a
project car, and have had zero luck finding the necessary factory paper
to plow into it yet.

The only paper I found at Hershey was a 1930 owners manual, and 1929
Sales Brochure.  The car was rescued from a hot rodder that threw away
everything but the body.

One of the men in the Oldsmobile club, their 1930 expert, said he though
that there were only two of these cars with the membership prior to this
one making 3.  I feel it's worth some effort.  That is 3 Cabriolets,
there are several sedans.  This car was only available as a four door or
a Cabriolet.

Cliff Feiler

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:30:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weekend almost disaster

At 11:52 AM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>For all intents and purposes crankcase oil is virtually fireproof...
>
>          Well, my BBC-powered crewcab dually (with 150K miles on the
>          engine) tends to burn some oil.  As a result, I often find
myself >          adding oil through the valve...er, rocker arm cover
fill port >          while at gas stops.  Since I am too lazy to use a
funnel, I've >          gotten good at pouring the oil into the opening
directly from the >          plastic oil containers now in use.
Occasionally, I'll manage to >          spill some, which runs straight
down the valve cover and onto the >          exhaust manifold.  On more
than one occasion, this has burst into >          a fairly impressive
flame (tho, usually, it just smokes). > >I guess as a
thought, and obviously the one the state of New Hampshire was >thinking
about, > >          Your first mistake was assuming that any state
legislature >          was thinking (OK, no more politics.  Sorry) >
 >          Joe Padavano >          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com >
 >          66 442 >          68 W-30 >          69 H/O >          70
W-30 > Not to beat a dead horse, but read my three methods of
setting mnotor oil afire, as number three does cover this possibility.
A glowing red exhaust stack can qualify as very, ..., very hot.

Cliff

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:30:44 -0400
Subject: re: GM transmission Trivia

>Kevin Wong has it about right.  The first fully automatic was built in
1939 >(I assume for the 1940 model year) for Oldsmobile.

Actually I think it may have been for the 1939 models, as about a month
or so ago, Newsweek magazine had an article about the decline in the
number of manual-shift cars being produced these days, and as an
illustration they reprinted a display ad for the 1939 Oldsmobile
extolling the virtues of their new automatic transmission. (I _think_ it
said '39...)

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: "Thomas Stoner" <TGSTONER@mailgw2.pmr.med.umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:40:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Header Horror Tale

Legend said that the Rickenabcker was the first car with four wheel
brakes, and it didn't come about until well after WWI.  You can get
by with just rear wheel brakes at low speeds, but at todays speeds
its downright dangerous.

*****
That explains why my Rickenbacker stops quicker than my Curved Dash.

Actually, I think that as a 19 year old suffering from testosterone
posioning and driving a new '68 442, I drove faster then than I do
today.  I certainly accelerated faster.  Anyway, I have no doubt
that driving with only rear brakes in Detroit traffic back then WAS
downright dangerous.  But as I said, that car always treated me much
better than I treated it.

Tom Stoner
Ann Arbor, MI

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 04:43:32 -0400
Subject: Project Olds Craft

     I was going to repost the Project: Olds Craft reminder here this
week,
     but I've been without power for 2 days (I'm at work) due to an ice
     storm knocking down trees (the olds was safely in the backyard),
and
     now they say it'll be a few more days.  Of course, the copy of the
     post with the address and everything is on my home PC.

     Soooo. . .  Just thought I'd let you all know that it's still on!
In
     case you're new here, the plan is to write Car Craft (maybe enclose
a
     picture, maybe mention this list) and mail the letters around Dec.
     1st.  The idea is that if they get a bunch of pro-Olds letters in a

     short time, maybe they'll listen.

     Sorry, I don't have the address to write to here (all my mags are
at
     home), but I'll repost it as soon as I get power back.

     Tom Lentz
     tlentz@teknon.com

------------------------------

From: "Chris Sparks (Mr. Ada)" <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:49:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Rain

Well today was really the first day I drove my 68 in the rain.  Boy
oh boy I sure forgot about getting those brakes wet.   Weeeeeeeee!

I have to be more conservative in my driving especially with all of
the nuts on the road.  (It can be murderous for those squirrels :-)

Chris Sparks
68 442

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:52:55 -0400
Subject: Re: My little olds expense list

At 12:17 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Marc Westerlind wrote:
>>
>> I bought my 1970 cutlass supreme for $2200... I bought new wire and
battery cables ($50), edelbrock intake $250, rear spirngs $100, gas tank
$400 including labor, Jacobs electronics $350, Hedman Headers $250, $300
to install headers and modify exhaust, ummmm, battery - starter - $150,
stereo system $600, grant steering wheel $70, headlights - turn signal
lenses and lamps - backup light/neutral safety switch $70, B&M shift kit
$50, Auto meter gauges $100, and some other little things that I wont >>
 >> about $4940.00 - not too much > >I guess I am starting to worry
that I have exceeded the value of the >car.  I'll have to drive it for
several years to get some of my money's >worth. > >Chris Sparks >68 442 > >
If you are building your car to sell, you must consider what it cost to
what it will return.  If you are building you car to use, this cannot
really be too much of a consideration.  If you put a $1000. stereo
system in the car because you like Pavrotti on CD, and goto sell the
car, you will likely not recover this cost, actually the car might bring
little more than if it had the factory $75. radio installed.

Also, break something big.  And it will cost $1500. to repair it.  Do
you scrap the car because you are now going to have $1500. more in it
that can be recovered at sale?  Or do you fix it, because you like the
car?

People that restore older cars, consider how they restore them, but with
a slightly different consideration.

To restore a car that will be put to judging.  Let us say you find a
barn fresh 1904 Curved dash, it catches you fancy, and you buy it
because you like it; and it's way under book at $5000.

You want a first class job, so you take it to the bext C.D.O. restorer
in the country.  He's done dozens and knows the car inside and out.

The restoration shop manager looks the car over, and tells you you've
found one of the best originals he's ever seen.  All there, not abused,
and save for the fact it's been painted 12 times, looks good for
restoration.

You say, well, I'm an ordinary working stiff; and must pay for it on an
ordinary salary, what can you do with it?  (The following numbers are
completely arbitrary, but relative).

He says, to completely dismantel the car, clean it, strip the old paint,
and get it ready for reconstruction would cost say $10,000., and that
this cost is pretty much standard regardless of the next steps.

They he tell's you for a 95 point car, it will cost another $10,000.
That will include a $3000. paint job, engine work only as necessary,
reconstruction of the car, and new upholstery and tires.

For a 98 point car, the cost will be another $15,000., which will
include a $5000. paint job, which will include a minor motor overhaul...

For a 99 Point car, the cost will be another $20,000., which will
include a $7500. paint job, complete engine overhaul,...

For a 100 point car it will cost another $40,000. which will include
everything possible...and be a substantially finer car than it was when
it left the factory in 1904.

The point is you get what you pay for.  The end result is a function of
the cost.  You can do a budget job, and blow the doors off every other
ride in your county.  You can do a 200% job, and have one that will win
at the Oakland Roadster show, and blow the doors off of every other car
in you county.  There is an old adage that says, "if you must worry
about the cost, you can't afford it."  The truth is, you must be willing
to aford it. You're building your car for you not the next guy.  Nuf
said.

Cliff Feiler
Oldsmobilist

------------------------------

From: grpruett@vt.edu (Greg Pruett)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 04:04:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Header Horror Tale

> But as I said, that car always treated me much
>better than I treated it.
>Tom Stoner
>Ann Arbor, MI
>

It's an Oldsmobile thing. :)

Greg Pruett
`72 Vista-Cruiser

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:00:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Header Horror Tale

At 12:40 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Legend said that the Rickenabcker was the first car with four wheel
>brakes, and it didn't come about until well after WWI.  You can get
>by with just rear wheel brakes at low speeds, but at todays speeds
>its downright dangerous.
>
>*****
>That explains why my Rickenbacker stops quicker than my Curved Dash.
>
>Actually, I think that as a 19 year old suffering from testosterone
>posioning and driving a new '68 442, I drove faster then than I do
>today.  I certainly accelerated faster.  Anyway, I have no doubt
>that driving with only rear brakes in Detroit traffic back then WAS
>downright dangerous.  But as I said, that car always treated me much
>better than I treated it.
>
>Tom Stoner
>Ann Arbor, MI
>
>
Sure does.

Cliff Feiler

------------------------------

From: Dana Taylor <dmtaylor@pop.tiac.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:17:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weekend almost disaster

> Not to beat a dead horse, but read my three methods of setting mnotor
oil > afire, as number three does cover this possibility.  A glowing red
exhaust > stack can qualify as very, ..., very hot. >

I know we don't know a lot but... If your exhaust manifold is glowing
red hot after you have been idleing and pouring in oil you have a
severe overheating problem. As to your methods of starting oil fires..
as a construction worker burning brush piles we always used drain oil
to start the brush fires going.. using only a couple peices of paper
and a match.

------------------------------

From: Dana Taylor <dmtaylor@pop.tiac.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:43:37 -0400
Subject: Re: FW: Weekend almost disaster

> Sorry, but the original answer/question was right.

no, I sorry but the answer is that air and liquid dio not compress at
the same rate. Air will compress and liquid will not.

  The air will compress to
> become equal to the pressure applied by the oil. Yes this part is true
that the air will compresss to the rate of the oil but the time it takes
to do this causes a lag in the guage responce time.
 The reason that you don't want
> air on your brake lines is that by the time you get the air compressed
to > equilibrium, you've run out of peddle.  Factory equipment use >
"air-over-hydralics" for control and measurement all hte time. I would
love to see an application where the factory puts air int the brake
lines.

The air over hydralics you speak of is not what you say. it is air
pressure assist for the Hydralics. This is used in heavy equipment and
is simular to vacuum assist in cars. It eases the pressure you need to
apply with your foot in order to get incressed pressure in the
hydralics. It is NOT in the brake lines. > > >also in the oil line >
>you get vairations in pressure readings as the engine rpm's change. The >
>difference in compression rates will make the guage read the changes at
a > >different rate than they are acually occuring.. > > Don't think
so...not been my experience...the bourbon tube is almost never ever >
filled completely with oil after use...there's always some air in
there../unless > they built and soldered the thing in an oil bath !

This is why you bleed the oil line at the guage after installation!!!
The same reason you bleed your brakes.

>
> >pressure much over 50 lbs (unless the bearings and journals are
designed > >for it) does not protect the bearing surfaces from wear.
This is because > >the oil is screaming through so fast that it cannot
lubracate the > >bearings. > > Let's see...if one molecule of oil
leaves very soon after arriving...and another > is right behind it to
take it's place...I've heard excess oil "velocity" can > cause foaming,
which can cause the oil the loose lubricity...I guess on the surface to
the uninformed your statement would make sense. But it is not true.
Foaming is true though. Another issue is wear. And liquid traveling
over a surface will cause wear. The faster it travels or the harder it
travels the more wear. Just look at a brook bed to see the wear on the
rocks... Or perhaps the Grand Canyon.

As a heavy equipment operator and mechanic I also find it hard to
beleive that Engine builders like Cummings, Perkins, Cat and Detroit
can all be wrong or there results cannot apply to cars.

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:36:29 -0400
Subject: Re[4]: Weekend almost disaster

Speaking of VERY HOT exhaust manifolds, one way to see them go cherry is
to drive a van with the motor cover removed.  Getting them cherry helps
if the engine badly needs plugs or ignition or running rich.

My friend had this beater ch*vy van with what must have been 130K on the
 original plugs, or maybe the front most two.  The back six were almost
 impossible.  After changing six, we took the inside engine cover off,
drove it a mile or two, and "oh shit, look at those things glow!"

Riding without the cover wasn't a good idea.  Upon letting up to stop,
we were greeted with a back fire through the carb up to the windshield,
 between the two of us.  Pretty funny!  Can't remember why we had the
air cleaner off.  I guess keep it on too!  It took on the name of "The
Van". Then came the green f*rd van.  Another bunch of stories!

Now that his business has taken off, he doesn't own any "beater"
vehicles.  Loss of cheap entertainment!

Ummm, for Olds content, my Delta 88 was parked nearby while we wrenched.

David Brown   Mailto:dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu
Olds FAQ 2.0 at: http://www.en.com/users/thall/
                 ftp://arl.arizona.edu/lists/olds

------------------------------

From: zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:33:09 -0400
Subject: Re: My little olds expense list

Well, I think I've been thrifty!

Bought car to drive
'74 Olds. Delta 88 350 4bbl. TH400	$250
new plugs, points, plug wires		$ 20

got hit by other car, so looked into
doing an engine swap!

'84 Cutlass Supreme (was wrecked
slightly on driverside door, interior
good, factory buckets, and center
console (yes, its a Supreme, not a
Calais) 305 Chevy motor previously
swapped into it, no tranny.		$150

Rented 1st Cherry Picker		$ 30
(defective, but I didn't know)

motor & tranny fell on me!
had to buy tranny fluid & oil		$ 10		
Had to buy new pully for motor		$ 15

Rented 2nd Cherry Picker 		$ 20

Various motor swapping costs
(mounts, lunch, etc.)			$ 20

I got the car put together, and
needed the '84's exhaust hooked to
new motor and some new pipe.		$ 40

Parts car '81 Cutlass Calais (350
4bbl. TH350 {tranny since sold}
chrome rocker covers, headers, brand
new A.C. rapidfire plugs, 15" factory
Cutlass wheels				$200

Grand Total to date 			$755
Subtraction for money that I recieved
for the Delta 88  From foundry	       -$100

New Total				$655

Of course, I haven't got around to doing the bodywork needed on the
drierside rear fender, or the paint yet, but I don't think that I'm
doing bad!  So tell me, if somebody offered you a '84 Cutlass with
buckets, and central console, and a 350 4bbl. motor, and TH400, with
only 66k miles on tranny and motor for $655, would you buy it?  I
certainly would!

Peace, Goodwill, and Happy Oldsmobilling,
Clayton Pierce,
zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:35:21 -0400
Subject: Re: FW: Weekend almost disaster

Oh, boy, our next big debate.  :-)  The attributions are already kind
of a mess so I'm just going to drop comments in and snip the rest...

>Yes this part is true that the air will compress to the rate
[pressure?] >of the oil but the time it takes to do this causes a lag in
the gauge >response time.

Well, yeah, but once compressed I would think it to be somewhat stable.
And over time, and especially while under pressure, is it possible for
the air pocket to be absorbed by the oil?

>The reason that you don't want air on your brake lines is that by the
>time you get the air compressed to equilibrium, you've run out of
pedal.

No argument there, although you can "pump up the pedal" if time
permits.(!)

>The air over hydraulics you speak of is not what you say. It is air
>pressure assist for the hydraulics. This is used in heavy equipment and
 >is simular to vacuum assist in cars. It eases the pressure you need
to >apply with your foot in order to get increased pressure in the
hydraulics. >It is NOT in the brake lines.

Agreed; this is apples and oranges. The vacuum booster on the brake
system is there to add mechanical pressure to the line; the air pressure
(or vacuum, depending on how you want to view it) is "amplified" in a
way by having force over a wide area (the diaphragm) focused on one
actuating point, the master cylinder plunger. Its use of air is not the
same as the behavior of an air pocket under pressure in a hydraulic
line.

>The Bourdon tube is almost never ever filled completely with oil after
>use...there's always some air in there.. unless they built and soldered
 >the thing in an oil bath !

I wondered this myself when installing mechanical gauges. With plastic
(nylon?) line I can even see the oil advancing up the pressure line when
the engine is first started... but it never squirts out of the gauge,
even after years of service, and it never drains back, either. I have
one used gauge setup on the shelf at home which has never drained its
oil line.

>This is why you bleed the oil line at the gauge after installation!!!

I understand why this would be a good idea, but have never been
instructed to do so by the gauge manufacturer, and I cannot see where on
the gauge I would be supposed to bleed it.

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:50:32 -0400
Subject: GM Trivia

A few more GM trivia questions:

1. One of the best known airplanes in the world is the SR71 "Blackbird."
Currently they have an on again, off again, service life.  The SR71
squadron was based at Beale A.F.B., California.  When these aircraft
were on duty away from Beale, they used GM starter motors.  Anyone know
what kind?

2. There is rumor that the Blackbird was replaced by something newer,
and occasionally referenced by the term: "soap-on-a-rope."  Oldsmobile
borrowed the alleged name of this alleged aircraft for one of its car
lines, probably my accident.  What?

3. This gives away one of the earlier, and as yet unanswered questions.
During WWII the Eastern Division of GM, built airplanes for the Navy.
What kind?

4. During WWII, the most produced vehicle for the war efford was the GMC
CCKW 2.5 ton truck.  GM was the largest producer of another class of
equipment (finished major items, not component parts or ammunition),
with production in the area of 5,000,000 total.  What?

5. What engine was GM's first to go into production with a supercharger?


Cliff Feiler

------------------------------

From: "Thomas Stoner" <TGSTONER@mailgw2.pmr.med.umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:12:47 -0400
Subject: Re: GM Trivia

2. There is rumor that the Blackbird was replaced by something
newer, and occasionally referenced by the term: "soap-on-a-rope."
Oldsmobile borrowed the alleged name of this alleged aircraft for one
of its car lines, probably my accident.  What?
*****
Cliff,

Aurora.  The "soap-on-a-rope" reference comes from sightings of the
exhaust from these reportedly mach 5 planes, which has also been
described as resembling a string of pearls.  These sightings have led
to speculation that the planes are powered by some sort of ramjet
engine which does not have constant combustion.

Tom Stoner
Ann Arbor, MI

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:14:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weekend almost disaster

At 05:17 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>> Not to beat a dead horse, but read my three methods of setting mnotor
oil >> afire, as number three does cover this possibility.  A glowing
red exhaust >> stack can qualify as very, ..., very hot. >> > >I know
we don't know a lot but... If your exhaust manifold is glowing red >hot
after you have been idleing and pouring in oil you have a severe
>overheating problem. As to your methods of starting oil fires.. as a
>construction worker burning brush piles we always used drain oil to
start >the brush fires going.. using only a couple peices of paper and
a match. > > > That's interesting, and probably illegal.  And I'm not a
student of combustion engineering.  And if you think the exhaust
manifolds (Chris Sparks: another name for engine headers is exhaust
manifolds), just touch them.  If red hot is the root of your objection
here, they are still very, hot; if not red, on an engine that is up to
operating temperature.  On the flip side, if the engine is still
relatively cool, spilled on motor oil does not combust, but rather comes
off as oil vapor, looks like grey smoke, but is not.  The point was that
the minimum combustion point (flash point) of automotive motor oil is
well above the temperature obtained by a match, cigarette lighter, or
even blow torch.  In order to burn at lower temperatures it is necessary
to modify the nature of the material.  If you don't believe me, try it.
I suppose that I should specify new motor oil, as drain oil can contain
a substantial amount of the motor fuel from use.  And drain oil does not
really qualify as motor oil as it is motor oil that has been
contaminated with other materials.

I believe that the part the drain oil plays in burning brush piles is
likely not what it seems.  The oil MUST be atomized (like in a perfume
atomizer or by being wicked); which may occur in your handling of these
materials in your bursh burning.  Again the flash point (the temperature
where a product will combust) of motor oil (of course the oil from a
worn out engine might provide enough gasoline to alter these
circumstances, and then again, it isn't what it seems; is it?) is well
above the temperature provided by a match, cigarette lighter, or blow
torch.  An aceteline torch will get it going, however, but at what
temperature does it burn?

Cliff Feiler
The Wiz

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:16:28 -0400
Subject: Re: GM Trivia

Wizkid gives us a few more GM trivia questions:
>
> 1. One of the best known airplanes in the world is the SR71
"Blackbird." <Snip> >  When these aircraft were on duty > away from
Beale, they used GM starter motors.  Anyone know what kind?

I do not know for sure, but I wonder if it's the same starters used on
GM's diesel trains?  The ones that were an answer to a previous trivia
question?

> 2. There is rumor that the Blackbird was replaced by something newer,
and > occasionally referenced by the term: "soap-on-a-rope."  Oldsmobile
borrowed > the alleged name of this alleged aircraft for one of its car
lines, probably > my accident.  What?

This one was tres easy... "Aurora".  Reputedly sighted by UFO buffs
flying in and out of that base in CA -- one with the name like Dreamland
or some such -- supposedly can fly at Mach 8, at over 150,000 ft.
Natch, the USAF denies it's very existence... maybe the Cigarette
Smoking Man on the X-Files will claim he designed it in an upcoming
episode... :)

Won't touch numbers 3, 4 or 5... although in the modern era I'd guess
the supercharged Monza was the first one.  As a sort of educated swag,
I'd guess Cadillac or LaSalle might have tried it in the 20s or 30s, in
answer to those supercharged Duesenburgs.



Tim Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'89 Cadillac Fleetwood, a.k.a. 'Der KinderWagen'
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:40:20 -0400
Subject: Re: FW: Weekend almost disaster

At 03:43 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:


Snip>>

>though. Another issue is wear. And liquid traveling over a surface will
cause wear. The faster it travels or
>the harder it travels the more wear. Just look at a brook bed to see
the wear on the rocks... Or perhaps the >Grand Canyon. > >As a heavy
equipment operator and mechanic I also find it hard to beleive that
Engine builders like Cummings, >Perkins, Cat and Detroit can all be
wrong or there results cannot apply to cars. > > First: I do not believe
that air in the o.p. gauge line will cause inaccurate pressure readings.
The air will compress to the pressure of the oil, thus making a solid
system.  This does not happen in hydraylic brakes, because the pressure
continues to increase as the brake pedal is pushed harder.  If the air
bubble is large enough, the pedal runs out of travel before the air is
compressed enough to make the system hydraullicly solid. I doubt that
any hydraulic brake system on a car is 100% air free, but that they can
be gotten to 99.9%+
 air free, reducing the air to such a small percentage the volume of
fluid available from the action on the brake pedal is sufficent to stop
the car. Air in the o.p. gauge may cause fluctuations during changes in
o.p., but when the system reaches equilibrium that the gauge is reading
the same as it would with or without air.  It is still a close hydraulic
system, and air is a hydraulic medium.  It is just more compressable
than the typical hydraulic fluid.

Of course there is the possiblity of fluid cutting anywhere that fluid
travels over a solid.  Was the Grand Canyon cut away, or leached away?
Or both?  I doubt it happened overnight either.  Very high oil pressure
can possibly cause fluid cutting of the engine components, but I'm
fairly sure that the rate of cut is not substantial.  Foaming is a
problem.  I think under pressure that a close tolerance area like a
journal in an engine (about 1.5 thousanths) the oil is forced into the
gap, and keeps the metal lubricated even at higher pressure.  A
hydraulic system stays full under pressure, and keeps the gaps (bearing
gap) full.  My reference to the Cummins engine study, and I wish I could
remember their exact estimate of the optium oil pressure in a
reciprocating engine likely applies to nearly every engine application.
Also without foaming, the heat removed will be applied to the oil that
stayed in the journal, and as it is replaced with new oil, the heat ends
up in the oil pan.  Probably not a problem with higher oil pressure.  I
am unconvinced, however, that higher o.p. is desirable.

Also, I missed the thread to Cummins (its Cummins not Cummings),
Perkins, Cat and Detroit...  What is wrong? What these results?  Please
expand on this part of your answer.

Cliff Feiler
Once an oil man

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:43:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Re[4]: Weekend almost disaster

At 01:36 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Speaking of VERY HOT exhaust manifolds, one way to see them go cherry
is to >drive a van with the motor cover removed.  Getting them cherry
helps if the >engine badly needs plugs or ignition or running rich. >
>My friend had this beater ch*vy van with what must have been 130K on
the >original plugs, or maybe the front most two.  The back six were
almost >impossible.  After changing six, we took the inside engine
cover off, drove >it a mile or two, and "oh shit, look at those things
glow!" > >Riding without the cover wasn't a good idea.  Upon letting up
to stop, we >were greeted with a back fire through the carb up to the
windshield, >between the two of us.  Pretty funny!  Can't remember why
we had the air >cleaner off.  I guess keep it on too!  It took on the
name of "The Van". >Then came the green f*rd van.  Another bunch of
stories! > >Now that his business has taken off, he doesn't own any
"beater" vehicles. Loss >of cheap entertainment! > >Ummm, for Olds
content, my Delta 88 was parked nearby while we wrenched. > >David Brown
Mailto:dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu >Olds FAQ 2.0 at:
http://www.en.com/users/thall/ >
ftp://arl.arizona.edu/lists/olds > > > Great story.  The exhaust
manifolds get much hotter than one thinks.  It's just hard to see the
red in the daylight.

Cliff Feiler

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End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #375
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