To:	oldsmobile-digest @ chebucto.ns.ca@INTERNET1
cc:	 
From:	oldsmobile-digest-owner @ chebucto.ns.ca@INTERNET1 @ ABTLAB
Date:	11/22/96 12:10:52 AM
Subject:	oldsmobile-digest V1 #376


oldsmobile-digest         Friday, 22 November 1996      Volume 01 :
Number 376


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 06:43:41 -0400
Subject: Re[2]: GM Transmissions

     Any chance you'd be willing to mail me the code you used to program

     your chips?  That is, if it doesn't use so much of Hypertech's base

     code that it'd be a copyright issue.  I'd also be interested on any

     info you have on programming chips (what values are stored where,
what
     values you've had good success changing, etc).

     Sounds like some serious mods were done to that tranny!  Have you
     considered using any of the tranny builders that the GN crowd uses?

     I've heard many recommendations for Mike Kurt's rebuild and shift
kit.
      If they hold up for 12 second GN's, they shouldn't have any
problem
     in a 442 or my '84 H/O.  BTW, my tranny has 80k on it and works
     perfectly.  Using synthetic ATF (made a big difference in shift
     quality) and it chirps the tires from 1-2 (you're right, this is no

     fun in the rain) at more than 1/2 throttle and from 2-3 too if I'm
     stomping on it.

     Thanks!

     Tom Lentz
     tlentz@teknon.com

______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________ Subject: re: GM Transmissions Author:
oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca at INTERNET Date:    11/21/96 7:06 AM


Steve;

23,000, shortly after I modified the carb linkage and the software.  I
run after market stage 2 code from HyperTek, and have modified the PROM
myself even further on top of the HyperTek code.  The results are
interesting. It's a little more feisty then the average 307 '86 442, so
I have been told by my trany guy.  I have never abused the car,
wouldn't dream of it, but heavy acceleration is fun, that's what muscle
cars are for (especially the real ones like a 68-72 442).  I surmise
that (1) the 200R4 just cannot take the extra engine output that I have
created and (2) was probably a mismatch for the 442, Grand National and
Monte SS from the beginning.  I have always assumed that I just put my
200R4 over the edge with the carb and software** mods.

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:51:16 -0400
Subject: Re: FW: Weekend almost disaster

At 01:35 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Oh, boy, our next big debate.  :-)  The attributions are already kind
>of a mess so I'm just going to drop comments in and snip the rest...

Yes sir,

Snip>>

>
>>The Bourdon tube is almost never ever filled completely with oil after
>>use...there's always some air in there.. unless they built and
soldered >>the thing in an oil bath !

Snip>>

Absolutely,  I replaced the gauges in a Towmotor one time, and the o.p.
gauge was constructed with the oil line soldered on at the back of the
gauge.  The copper oil line had a fitting for the side of the block.  I
doubt it was full of oil from the factory, and bleeding it was nei
impossible.

>>This is why you bleed the oil line at the gauge after installation!!!

Snip>>

>I understand why this would be a good idea, but have never been
instructed >to do so by the gauge manufacturer, and I cannot see where
on the gauge I >would be supposed to bleed it.

I agree it would be a good idea to bleed it if you can.

>Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
>Datalogics, Inc.
>101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
>Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282
>
>
Cliff Feiler

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:52:42 -0400
Subject: Re: GM Trivia

At 02:12 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>2. There is rumor that the Blackbird was replaced by something
>newer, and occasionally referenced by the term: "soap-on-a-rope."
>Oldsmobile borrowed the alleged name of this alleged aircraft for one
>of its car lines, probably my accident.  What?
>*****
>Cliff,
>
>Aurora.  The "soap-on-a-rope" reference comes from sightings of the
>exhaust from these reportedly mach 5 planes, which has also been
>described as resembling a string of pearls.  These sightings have led
>to speculation that the planes are powered by some sort of ramjet
>engine which does not have constant combustion.
>
>Tom Stoner
>Ann Arbor, MI
>
>
100% on this one.  Excellent.

Cliff Feiler

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:57:20 -0400
Subject: Re: GM Trivia

At 02:16 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Wizkid gives us a few more GM trivia questions:
>>
>> 1. One of the best known airplanes in the world is the SR71
"Blackbird." ><Snip> >>  When these aircraft were on duty >> away from
Beale, they used GM starter motors.  Anyone know what kind? > >I do not
know for sure, but I wonder if it's the same starters used on GM's
>diesel trains?  The ones that were an answer to a previous trivia
question? > >> 2. There is rumor that the Blackbird was replaced by
something newer, and >> occasionally referenced by the term:
"soap-on-a-rope."  Oldsmobile borrowed >> the alleged name of this
alleged aircraft for one of its car lines, probably >> my accident.
What? > >This one was tres easy... "Aurora".  Reputedly sighted by UFO
buffs flying in >and out of that base in CA -- one with the name like
Dreamland or some such -- >supposedly can fly at Mach 8, at over 150,000
ft.  Natch, the USAF denies it's >very existence... maybe the Cigarette
Smoking Man on the X-Files will claim >he designed it in an upcoming
episode... :) > >Won't touch numbers 3, 4 or 5... although in the modern
era I'd guess the >supercharged Monza was the first one.  As a sort of
educated swag, I'd guess >Cadillac or LaSalle might have tried it in the
20s or 30s, in answer to those >supercharged Duesenburgs. >

>Tim Churchill
>-------------
>'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
>'89 Cadillac Fleetwood, a.k.a. 'Der KinderWagen'
>'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'
>
Your 100% on number two.  Very good.  Number one is devious, and when
the answer comes about you will understand.

A clue to the supercharger question is the word "Winton!"

Still a very good job.

Cliff Feiler

------------------------------

From: Greg Kalkhoff <gkalkhof@execpc.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:10:31 -0400
Subject: Re: GM Trivia

C.R.F. wrote:
>
> A few more GM trivia questions:
>
> 1. One of the best known airplanes in the world is the SR71
"Blackbird." > Currently they have an on again, off again, service life.
The SR71 squadron > was based at Beale A.F.B., California.  When these
aircraft were on duty > away from Beale, they used GM starter motors.
Anyone know what kind?

More like a starter ENGINE! They used a Chevy motor to start each
Blackbird engine. Forgot the CID, but it was a whopper! Perhaps a 427?
(I'm not a Chevey person)

Sparky

- --
Greg Kalkhoff                             See the Sparkmobile
AKA  "Sparky"                       http://www.442.com/kalkhoff.html
Milwaukee, WI

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:20:40 -0400
Subject: Re: GM Trivia

C.R.F. wrote:
>
> A few more GM trivia questions:
1. Dunno.

2. Aurora.

3. Dunno.

4. Dunno.

5. I forget.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Kevin Wong <yu135008@yorku.ca>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:24:55 -0400
Subject: re: GM transmission Trivia

> >>Trivia:  What year did GM's Hydramatic division begin by making the
world's <snip> > What was the division's name at that time (note: it was
not Hydra-Matic).

How does GM Central Research sound?

Kevin Wong

------------------------------

From: hitson@leadbelt.com (Roger Hitson)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:00:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Project Olds Craft

>
>     I was going to repost the Project: Olds Craft reminder here this
week, > > >     Soooo. . .  Just thought I'd let you all know
that it's still on!  In >     case you're new here, the plan is to
write Car Craft (maybe enclose a >     picture, maybe mention this
list) > >     Tom Lentz >     tlentz@teknon.com > >

Does anyone know if a particular size photo or a negative is more likely
to be used (printed) by a magazine?

Roger Hitson
Roger Hitson		
MailTo:hitson@leadbelt.com

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:11:02 -0400
Subject: Re: GM Trivia

At 05:10 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>C.R.F. wrote:
>>
>> A few more GM trivia questions:
>>
>> 1. One of the best known airplanes in the world is the SR71
"Blackbird." >> Currently they have an on again, off again, service
life.  The SR71 squadron >> was based at Beale A.F.B., California.  When
these aircraft were on duty >> away from Beale, they used GM starter
motors.  Anyone know what kind? > >More like a starter ENGINE! They used
a Chevy motor to start each Blackbird >engine. Forgot the CID, but it
was a whopper! Perhaps a 427? (I'm not a Chevey person) > >Sparky > >--
 >Greg Kalkhoff                             See the Sparkmobile >AKA
"Sparky"                       http://www.442.com/kalkhoff.html
>Milwaukee, WI > > Sparky,

In as much as you got the right idea, I'll give you the credit on this
one. They didn't use a Chevy however, it was a 401 Buick nail head,
actually is was twin Buicks.  They were run a full throttle, without
mufflers either.  A real earsplitter.  The reason that they only usef
this set up away, was they had built in starting systems at Beale, and
were in a ground equipment cart away.

Cliff

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:12:05 -0400
Subject: Re: GM Trivia

At 06:20 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>C.R.F. wrote:
>>
>> A few more GM trivia questions:
>1. Dunno.
>
>2. Aurora.
>
>3. Dunno.
>
>4. Dunno.
>
>5. I forget.
>
>The 66 Toro and Mike
>
>
>--
>Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
>     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
>     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/
>
>
>
Exactly, and in this league one out of five ain't bad.

Cliff

------------------------------

From: Greg Kalkhoff <gkalkhof@execpc.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:41:42 -0400
Subject: Re: GM Trivia

C.R.F. wrote:

> Sparky,
>
> In as much as you got the right idea, I'll give you the credit on this
one. > They didn't use a Chevy however, it was a 401 Buick nail head,
actually is > was twin Buicks.  They were run a full throttle, without
mufflers either.  A > real earsplitter.  The reason that they only usef
this set up away, was they > had built in starting systems at Beale, and
were in a ground equipment cart > away.

Cliff,

Assuming you are right, which you might be, then we had better notify
the Producers of Wings. I just so happened to catch it a few weeks ago
and I remember the narrator distinctly saying that "Chevy" engines were
used to start the SR-71. Reference was made to them being un-muffled
also. Thats why I replied to the post thinking I was well informed. (:
Oh well. I was close, only because I was misinformed.

Sparky
- --
Greg Kalkhoff                             See the Sparkmobile
AKA  "Sparky"                       http://www.442.com/kalkhoff.html
Milwaukee, WI

------------------------------

From: "Chris Sparks (Mr. Ada)" <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:48:26 -0400
Subject: Re: GM Trivia

Greb Kalkhoff (aka Sparky)

Thank God that you go by the name Sparky.  I didn't like being called
that when I was young.  A reference to my father ya know. :-)

Chris Sparks (aka not Sparky!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:51:49 -0400
Subject: Re: GM Trivia

>>
>> A few more GM trivia questions:
>1. Dunno.
>
>2. Aurora.
>
>3. Dunno.
>
>4. Dunno.
>
>5. I forget.
>
>The 66 Toro and Mike
>


          Well, I'd give him an A for effort!  :)


      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:51:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Project Olds Craft

>Does anyone know if a particular size photo or a negative is more
likely to >be used (printed) by a magazine?

     My intentions were to give them printouts.  My Epson does color
better than most photos!  I was figuring on giving them a color and a
b/w of each photo, so they could do what they want.  I don't know what
kind of editing equipment they use, for rescaling the images to fit the
boxes on their pages, but I'd imagine it would be better to be too big
than too small. You'll gain clarity by shrinking, but you'll lose it by
enlarging.  If I send them a clear 8X10, and they shrink it down, it'll
still be quite clear.
     I don't know, however, if they actually can shrink or enlarge the
images.  Does anyone else here know how they handle that sort of thing?
Heck, if I had ~my~ way, I'd just E-Mail them *.jpg's!  (Since they
don't have E-mail, though, I'd doubt they'd even know what a jpg is!

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: Robert Barry <rbarry@sequent1.providence.edu>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:40:57 -0400
Subject: Re: no longer a pig in the corners

At 10:17 AM 11/21/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Lloyd Culp wrote:
>
>> I bought my '68 442 4-speed convertible for $1550; bought net tires
>> ($200), did brakes ($50), purchased Magnum 500 wheels ($20), rear
>> suspension bushings ($30), & repaired rear wheel bearing ($20) =
$1870 > >I guess I am spending too much on my car.  Sometimes I wish I
wouldn't >have bought it.  Money sure doesn't grow on trees! > >Chris
Sparks >68 442

OK, let me tally up what I remember spending on my "bargain" 1969
Toronado...

$100- 1969 Toronado, sitting in storage for 7 years, 107,000 orig. miles
 $90- Registrations and inspections (complicated, don't ask)
$250- 6 months insurance (liability alone)
 $45- Battery
 $20- Mount better tires I already had to rims
 $45- Thrust-angle alignment
 $30- New belts
 $40- New hoses (radiator, heater, vacuum)
$250- Complete brake kit from Kanter automotive, including new cylinders
 $60- Misc. brake line, fittings, fluid (I couldn't believe this
myself!)
  $5- New governor gear (old one stripped, car would not shift from 1st)
 $40- Oil and Tranny fluid and filters ($22 for a TH425 filter-- yikes!)
$350- Exhaust (took them 9 _hours_ to get the old one off... =o )
 $30- Carb rebuild kit
- -----
$1255- Total, _just_ to get on the road! This was a car that I had
justified purchasing with my wife as being "Only $100!"

Since then, I've done a bit more than just make it basically roadworthy:
 $10- Platinum-tip spark plugs
 $25- New spark plug wires
 $10- Air filter
 $90- Replace leaking CV boot
 $20- Power steering hose
$500- 4 new Dunlop GT Qualifier 275/70 tires, mounted and balanced, +tax
 $45- Replace drain tubes in trunk (Toro-specific problem)
$240- Kanter front-end rebuild kit (ball joints were shot, cost $120
_each_ sep.)
 $50- Two new front shocks (through Fusick's)
$120- Idler arm (I LOVE Toro-specific parts... :(
$150- A/C flush, charge and misc. parts replaced
  $5- Wiper blades
 $10- Misc. interior bulbs, wiring supplies
- -----
$1275 + $1255 above = $2580 that I've spent since getting this
"virtually free" car last May. (sometimes free cars are the most
expensive kind of car to own...) This excludes the miscellaneous things
that I've forgotten (oh, and the hundreds of $$$ spent on gas on an 8mpg
car...)

The car still needs gaskets replaced on the intake, probably a water
pump soon, a starter eventually, lots of body work (when it's warmer),
paint, interior work, radio restoration, and an engine rebuild since it
burns oil... :(

Note, of course, that all of the above includes virtually no labor
charges; I *shudder* to think what the labor charges would have been for
fixing the Comfortron A/C system (I spent *hours* tracking down shorts,
blown fuses and vacuum leaks).

Is it worth it? Well, I think it is, and my wife still thinks of this as
a $100 car, so *she* does too (nobody here better tell...)

I *know* the budget on the 403 I built for my Electra while all this was
going on was completely blown away due to misc. and related expenses
(from projected $2000 to over $4000, but not all on the engine)

One time I did total up what I spent on my 1970 Cutlass SX, that I
bought for $500. Without purchasing any major items, I had spent over
$2500 in the course of a year.
_______________________________________________________ Dr. Robert Barry
MailTo:RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu Theology Dept, Providence College,
Providence, RI 02918

------------------------------

From: WMACHINES@aol.com
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:15:43 -0400
Subject: Re: 1970 cutlass engine swap

In a message dated 96-11-21 01:36:02 EST, you write:

<< The Blackjacks I had on my '70 SX rubbed that junction block as well;
I had
 considered moving it to the top of the frame in order to run headers,
but
 believe that I will now go with the Hooker Comp headers. I'll pay the
$$$
 for the part that works. What sizes do they come in, and what are the
part
 #'s for them? And what's a good price/source for them? >>

They come with 1 7/8 tubes with 3 and half inch collectors.
the cost for the headers at Super Shops is about 319.00 add another
180.00 for ceramic coating.

------------------------------

From: Frank Boerger <103454.317@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:14:41 -0400
Subject: FW: FW: Weekend almost disaster

- ----------
From: 	Frank Boerger[COMPUSERVE:103454,317]
Sent: 	Thursday, November 21, 1996 1:35 PM
To: 	'Dana Taylor'
Subject: 	RE: FW: Weekend almost disaster


>> Sorry, but the original answer/question was right.

>no, I sorry but the answer is that air and liquid dio not compress at
the >same rate. Air will compress and >liquid will not.

The correct term is ratio...every fluid is compressible...liquid oxygen,
nitrogen and even liquid air are available.  A long time ago, in a
physics lab far away, some nerd comfused mankind with the statement that
a " liquid is virtually incompressable.  Keyword: virtually.  A given
volume of air can be reduced in volume so as to double the pressure in
the vessel...a given volume of oil can be reduced in volume so as to
double the pressure...just doesn't have to be reduced as much...

  >The air will compress to
> become equal to the pressure applied by the oil. Yes this part is true
>that the air will compresss to the rate of the oil but the time it
takes to >do this >causes a lag in the guage responce time.
 >The reason that you don't want
> air on your brake lines is that by the time you get the air compressed
to > equilibrium, you've run out of peddle.  Factory equipment use >
"air-over-hydralics" for control and measurement all hte time. I would
love to see an application where the factory puts air int the brake
lines.

Check out your friendly 18 wheeler...he kinda depends on air as the
fluid..and those nitrogen accumulators kinda represent some "air" (gas)
in the system on purpose.

>The air over hydralics you speak of is not what you say. it is air
pressure >assist for the Hydralics. This is >used in heavy equipment
and is simular to vacuum assist in cars. It >eases the pressure you need
to apply with >your foot in order to get incressed pressure in the
hydralics. It is NOT in >the brake lines.

Nitrogen accumulators are sometimes used in such circuits (heavy
equipment, jet liners, space shuttle landing gear, etc) to maintain
system pressure if the main pressure source fails...that nitrogen is not
liquid...just held at the same pressure as the system needs. > > >also
in the oil line > >you get vairations in pressure readings as the engine
rpm's change. The > >difference in compression rates will make the guage
read the changes at a > >different rate than they are acually occuring.. >
 > Don't think so...not been my experience...the bourbon tube is almost
never ever > filled completely with oil after use...there's always some
air in there../unless > they built and soldered the thing in an oil bath
!

>This is why you bleed the oil line at the guage after installation!!!
The >same reason you bleed your brakes.

Cut that gauge apart and you will see that even if you bleed it up to
the fitting, there is still air trapped in the blind end of the
tube...if you bled it at this blind end, then you would have removed all
the air.  I stand by the statement, that the only reason you have to
bleed the brakes is because the comparable cylinder "throw" is not
sufficient to bring the air to a compensating pressure...so that you
would run out of pedal before you reach the equilibrium of the air
against the fluid.

>
> >pressure much over 50 lbs (unless the bearings and journals are
designed > >for it) does not protect the bearing surfaces from wear.
This is because > >the oil is screaming through so fast that it cannot
lubracate the > >bearings. > > Let's see...if one molecule of oil
leaves very soon after arriving...and another > is right behind it to
take it's place...I've heard excess oil "velocity" can > cause foaming,
which can cause the oil the loose lubricity...I guess on >the surface to
the uninformed your statement would make sense. But it >is not true.
Foaming is true >though. Another issue is wear. And liquid traveling
over a surface will >cause wear. The faster it travels or >the harder
it travels the more wear. Just look at a brook bed to see the >wear on
the rocks... Or perhaps the >Grand Canyon.

Which explains how fast those oil well casings wear out, or for that
matter oil pumps ?!?  How long will that pump last if the oil is kept
clean ??...it took the mighty Colorado more than say the average 4,000
hour engine to chomp away at those rocks.


>As a heavy equipment operator and mechanic I also find it hard to
>beleive that Engine builders like Cummings, >Perkins, Cat and Detroit
can all be wrong or there results cannot apply >to cars.

Not disputing those revered builders...even John Deere says that high
oil pressure may damage seals...but I never heard them say that too much
oil, in pressure or volume could "wear out" bearings...You'll have to
convince me there.

And away we go !!!!

Frank Boerger//Tallahassee/FL

------------------------------

From: Frank Boerger <103454.317@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:14:45 -0400
Subject: FW: GM Trivia

- ----------
From: 	Frank Boerger[COMPUSERVE:103454,317]
Sent: 	Thursday, November 21, 1996 2:31 PM
To: 	'"C.R.F."'
Subject: 	RE: GM Trivia


>A few more GM trivia questions:

>1. One of the best known airplanes in the world is the SR71
"Blackbird." >Currently they have an on again, off again, service life.
The SR71 >squadron >was based at Beale A.F.B., California.  When these
aircraft were on >duty >away from Beale, they used GM starter motors.
Anyone know what >kind?

Well, the engine in the plane is the PWA J-58...used to build most of
the blades for it...I'll guess...a v-8 on a starter rig pack ! >2. There
is rumor that the Blackbird was replaced by something newer, >and
>occasionally referenced by the term: "soap-on-a-rope."  Oldsmobile
>borrowed >the alleged name of this alleged aircraft for one of its car
lines, probably >my accident.  What?

Skip
>3. This gives away one of the earlier, and as yet unanswered questions.
>During WWII the Eastern Division of GM, built airplanes for the Navy.
>What >kind?

Would that be the TBM-Avenger ( m as in motors, vs. the TBF by
Consolidated ?)

4. During WWII, the most produced vehicle for the war efford was the GMC
CCKW 2.5 ton truck.  GM was the largest producer of another class of
equipment (finished major items, not component parts or ammunition),
with production in the area of 5,000,000 total.  What?

They didn't by chance license build Pratt & Whitney R-2800's ? I know
Ford built those, and later PWA J-57 Turbojets.  Or maybe it was the
Allison V-12...don't think they needed 5,000,000 of those, though. Some
kind of maybe...

5. What engine was GM's first to go into production with a supercharger?


Allison V-12 ??

Frank Boerger//Tallahassee//FL

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:18:04 -0400
Subject: Re: GM Trivia

At 06:41 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>C.R.F. wrote:
>
>> Sparky,
>>
>> In as much as you got the right idea, I'll give you the credit on
this one. >> They didn't use a Chevy however, it was a 401 Buick nail
head, actually is >> was twin Buicks.  They were run a full throttle,
without mufflers either.  A >> real earsplitter.  The reason that they
only usef this set up away, was they >> had built in starting systems at
Beale, and were in a ground equipment cart >> away. > >Cliff, >
>Assuming you are right, which you might be, then we had better notify
the Producers of >Wings. I just so happened to catch it a few weeks ago
and I remember the narrator >distinctly saying that "Chevy" engines
were used to start the SR-71. Reference was made >to them being
un-muffled also. Thats why I replied to the post thinking I was well
>informed. (: Oh well. I was close, only because I was misinformed. >
>Sparky >-- >Greg Kalkhoff                             See the
Sparkmobile >AKA  "Sparky"
http://www.442.com/kalkhoff.html >Milwaukee, WI > > Sparky,

Very interesting source.  I got mine for a Squadron publication on the
SR71. I'll check a "Janes" the next time I'm at my old house (I'm moving
a box or two at a time) and see what it says, likely nothing; but they
are the know it all of aviation.

Cliff

------------------------------

From: Aaron Neumann <neumann.12@osu.edu>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:25:29 -0400
Subject: More on motor mounts-correction

In my last post I said:

>  ...rubber should not deteriorate in oil.

After asking if this is true at work today, I take this back.  Rubber
does deteriorate after extended immersion in oil.  The rubber actually
absorbs the oil.  While a little oil shouldn't hurt a motor mount, I
would expect that this could be a factor on, say, 20+ year old mounts.

Sorry for the misinformation :(

- -Aaron

 _____
|  |  |* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
|  |  | Aaron Neumann St. Marys, OH  *
|  |  | neumann.12@osu.edu           *
| /|\ | 72 Delta 88 Royale Conv.     *
|/_|_\|* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *	

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:21:24 -0400
Subject: Re: catalytic converter

At 10:04 PM 11/20/96 -0400, you wrote:
>i was wondering what the benifits and draw backs to putting in a
straight >pipe instead of the cat....


One big drawback...it's ILLEGAL and the fines are usually pretty high if
you get caught. - -- Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile
Cutlass Supreme Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse
GS dpauliso@gate.net

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:38:13 -0400
Subject: Re: FW: FW: Weekend almost disaster

At 05:14 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>----------
>From: 	Frank Boerger[COMPUSERVE:103454,317]
>Sent: 	Thursday, November 21, 1996 1:35 PM
>To: 	'Dana Taylor'
>Subject: 	RE: FW: Weekend almost disaster
>
>
>>> Sorry, but the original answer/question was right.
>
>>no, I sorry but the answer is that air and liquid dio not compress at
the >same >rate. Air will compress and >>liquid will not. > >The
correct term is ratio...every fluid is compressible...liquid oxygen,
>nitrogen and even liquid air are available.  A long time ago, in a
physics lab >far away, some nerd comfused mankind with the statement
that a " liquid is >virtually incompressable.  Keyword: virtually.  A
given volume of air can be >reduced in volume so as to double the
pressure in the vessel...a given volume of >oil can be reduced in volume
so as to double the pressure...just doesn't have to >be reduced as
much... > >  >The air will compress to >> become equal to the pressure
applied by the oil. Yes this part is true >that >the air will compresss
to the rate of the oil but the time it takes to >do this >>causes a lag
in the guage responce time. > >The reason that you don't want >> air on
your brake lines is that by the time you get the air compressed to >>
equilibrium, you've run out of peddle.  Factory equipment use >>
"air-over-hydralics" for control and measurement all hte time. I would
love to >see an application where the factory puts air int the brake
lines. > >Check out your friendly 18 wheeler...he kinda depends on air
as the fluid..and >those nitrogen accumulators kinda represent some
"air" (gas) in the system on >purpose. > >>The air over hydralics you
speak of is not what you say. it is air pressure >>assist for the
Hydralics. This is >>used in heavy equipment and is simular to vacuum
assist in cars. It >eases the >pressure you need to apply with >>your
foot in order to get incressed pressure in the hydralics. It is NOT in
>>the brake lines. > >Nitrogen accumulators are sometimes used in such
circuits (heavy equipment, jet >liners, space shuttle landing gear, etc)
to maintain system pressure if the main >pressure source fails...that
nitrogen is not liquid...just held at the same >pressure as the system
needs. >> >> >also in the oil line >> >you get vairations in pressure
readings as the engine rpm's change. The >> >difference in compression
rates will make the guage read the changes at a >> >different rate than
they are acually occuring.. >> >> Don't think so...not been my
experience...the bourbon tube is almost never >ever >> filled completely
with oil after use...there's always some air in >there../unless >> they
built and soldered the thing in an oil bath ! > >>This is why you bleed
the oil line at the guage after installation!!! The >same >reason you
bleed your brakes. > >Cut that gauge apart and you will see that even if
you bleed it up to the >fitting, there is still air trapped in the blind
end of the tube...if you bled >it at this blind end, then you would have
removed all the air.  I stand by the >statement, that the only reason
you have to bleed the brakes is because the >comparable cylinder "throw"
is not sufficient to bring the air to a compensating >pressure...so that
you would run out of pedal before you reach the equilibrium >of the air
against the fluid. > >> >> >pressure much over 50 lbs (unless the
bearings and journals are designed >> >for it) does not protect the
bearing surfaces from wear. This is because >> >the oil is screaming
through so fast that it cannot lubracate the >> >bearings. >> >> Let's
see...if one molecule of oil leaves very soon after arriving...and
>another >> is right behind it to take it's place...I've heard excess
oil "velocity" can >> cause foaming, which can cause the oil the loose
lubricity...I guess on >the >surface to the uninformed your statement
would make sense. But it >is not true. >Foaming is true >>though.
Another issue is wear. And liquid traveling over a surface will >cause
>wear. The faster it travels or >>the harder it travels the more wear.
Just look at a brook bed to see the >wear >on the rocks... Or perhaps
the >>Grand Canyon. > >Which explains how fast those oil well casings
wear out, or for that matter oil >pumps ?!?  How long will that pump
last if the oil is kept clean ??...it took >the mighty Colorado more
than say the average 4,000 hour engine to chomp away at >those rocks. > >
>>As a heavy equipment operator and mechanic I also find it hard to
>beleive that >Engine builders like Cummings, >>Perkins, Cat and
Detroit can all be wrong or there results cannot apply >to >cars. > >Not
disputing those revered builders...even John Deere says that high oil
>pressure may damage seals...but I never heard them say that too much
oil, in >pressure or volume could "wear out" bearings...You'll have to
convince me there. > >And away we go !!!! > >Frank
Boerger//Tallahassee/FL > > > Frank,

I'm with you.

Cliff Feiler

------------------------------

From: "Delk, Mitch S" <msdelk@ingr.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:41:17 -0400
Subject: Unsubscribe

Please remove me from the mailing list. I have enjoyed it, But I need to
get off. Too much traffic.

Thanks, Mitch

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:42:20 -0400
Subject: Re: More on motor mounts-correction

At 05:25 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>In my last post I said:
>
>>  ...rubber should not deteriorate in oil.
>
>After asking if this is true at work today, I take this back.  Rubber
does >deteriorate after extended immersion in oil.  The rubber actually
absorbs >the oil.  While a little oil shouldn't hurt a motor mount, I
would expect >that this could be a factor on, say, 20+ year old mounts. >
>Sorry for the misinformation :( > >-Aaron > > _____ >|  |  |* * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * >|  |  | Aaron Neumann St. Marys, OH  * >|  |  |
neumann.12@osu.edu           * >| /|\ | 72 Delta 88 Royale Conv.     *
>|/_|_\|* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *	 > > It is very unlikely that
the engine mounts are made of rubber, but rather a oil resistant
synthetic such as neoprene.  Take an old piece of natural rubber, like a
piece of inner tube, and put it in some gasoline for say an hour.  What
you have a mere hour later isn't much.

Cliff Feiler

P.S> Even neoprene is considered only oil resistant, it will last in the
above test for a long time, so it is much more resistant.

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:50:09 -0400
Subject: Counting Pennies (Was: Re: no longer a pig in the corners)

I always get a charge out of the folks I encounter who say they've found
a car in a barn somewhere after being stored for 20 or 30 years, maybe
invest in a tank of gas, a change of oil or a battery, and then say they
have a working car. It may technically be running, but I sure wouldn't
want to drive it! I never seem to find these beasts... heck, even the
new cars I've owned always end up costing me *something* in unexpected
costs, and as for my old ones... well, I really don't want to know how
much I have in them. By definition a 30-year-old car is going to need
upgrading, and I think that bragging about how little you've spent on it
is tempting fate, sort of like buying war surplus parachutes and jumping
out of a plane. I have enough worries as is without tallying up all of
the beans I've put into these.

I mean, for me at least, it's a hobby, no different from playing golf or
 collecting stamps or whatever. I really don't *want* to add up what I
spend drinking red wine for example, but I enjoy it anyway. If I had to
think about how much I am spending every time I buy a bottle I doubt if
I would enjoy it as much. If I can afford it and I want it, I buy it;
if I can't, I don't. The same when I do things to my cars. When I buy
them I know that I will want to have them eventually at a certain
standard of appearance and function. It is an ongoing thing for me, and
I do things to them as I can afford it. I don't really think about
"will I get my money out of this" when I do things to them, because I
think that counting on getting your investment back when dealing with
old cars is probably hit-or-miss at best.

I suppose for an academic exercise I might want to add up my receipts
from over the years and say that I have this much into it, but I don't
think that's something I necessarily want to know if I'm into this for
fun. It's probably not a rational thing - but who said old cars were
ever rational? If it was about that we would all probably be driving
2-year-old Toyotas or whatever. Here's the only mention of money in
this message: just my $0.02 on the subject.

As Bob Handren says, just "enjoy the ride"!

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia,
Canada

------------------------------

From: Dennis Johnson <dwjohnso@sunbird.usd.edu>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:46:07 -0400
Subject: RE: GM Trivia

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3. This gives away one of the earlier, and as yet unanswered questions.
During WWII the Eastern Division of GM, built airplanes for the Navy.
What kind? Cliff Feiler

  I know!  I know!  The Grumman FM-2 Wildcat.  9 cylinders, 1350hp.  The
  standard Grumman, the F4F used an 18 cylinder motor (two sets of 9),
  with less hp.  Just the plane for the man who likes big jugs!
  dj
Whew, at least I knew one of the trivia questions.



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------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:44:03 -0400
Subject: Re: catalytic converter

>>i was wondering what the benifits and draw backs to putting in a
straight >>pipe instead of the cat.... > >One big drawback...it's
ILLEGAL and the fines are usually pretty high if you >get caught.

I think the fines/illegality are more significant if you're a mechanic
caught getting paid to remove one, as opposed to being some average mope
caught driving around without one. I was one such mope back when my wife
and I were driving a '78 Grand Prix for about 6 years with no convertor.
Passed all emissions test with flying colors, too.

But all that aside, if you remove it you just have a smelly car. The
convertor doesn't contribute much in the way of backpressure to begin
with, and the car (read: ECM and assorted engine systems) was designed
from the ground up to expect the convertor's backpressure, such as it
is, so you don't gain much if anything by simply removing it. On a side
note, the extra hot exhaust it pushes down the pipe will help keep the
exhaust system a bit drier if all you do is short trips; that might
help keep the corrosion down. And as I said, the distinctive smell of
unprocessed exhaust is obvious to anyone following behind you, such as
nitpicky cops (if you live in an area where they're interested in that
sort of thing).

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:48:01 -0400
Subject: Re: FW: FW: Weekend almost disaster

>I'm with you.

Me, too. Though I prefer to say it on line 3, not line 123.  ;-)

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: "Chris R. Smetana" <Chris_R._Smetana@DADC.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:02:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Clarification & SB/BB gasket sets

Is it possible the engines can have the same part numbers for a gasket
set.

          Yep.  The SBO and BBO are (from a gasket standpoint, anyway)
          identical.  The oil pan rails, front cover, water pump, fuel
          pump, and even head gaskets are the same.  The major
          difference is the deck height of the block and thus the
          width of the intake (thus the difference in the intake tray
          gasket).

          In addition, when there _is_ a difference, it is usually
          cheaper for the gasket maker to just put one of each in the
          kit rather than to stock two different part numbers.

          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It makes sense that a gasket maker would put one of each in a kit rather
than stock 2 diff numbers.  I should have thought of that, since I've
seen that before.  What was I thinking or not thinking for that matter.
Thanks Joe.

Chris Smetana
Terre Haute, IN

1969 Cutlass W-31
2 1966 GTO's - one is a parts car
1971 Skylark custom convertible - for sale
1989 Mustang LX 5.0 Hatchback



------------------------------

From: "Chris R. Smetana" <Chris_R._Smetana@DADC.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:34:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Clarification & SB/BB gasket sets

>FWIW, with Pontiac engines, there is no 'real' small block and big
block (you >can put a 350 2 bbl intake on a 455, for example, or more
commonly a 389 >tri-power set up on a 455) so I could possibly see that
there might be 1 part >number for a gasket set with Pontiacs, no I
didn't check the catalog to verify >this. > >Chris Smetana >Terre
Haute, IN >1969 W-31 Cutlass >2 1966 GTO's - one is a parts car >1971
Skylark custom convertible - still for sale >1989 Mustang LX 5.0
hatchback > > There is an enormous amount of interchangability between
Olds engines from at least the 307 to the 455.  Not everything will
interchange, but many things will.

Sort of like what you said about the Poncho.

Cliff Feiler

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

What are some of the things that can interchange?  I know that pulleys
from a 350 can go on a 455, as I've done this.  I know one person on
this list has C heads on a 350, wouldn't  there be blocked coolant
passages or anything like that.  In theory, could I put 455 exhaust
manifolds/headers on 350 heads and put that on a 425 block, not that I
would do this, I'm just curious.  Thanks Cliff.

Chris Smetana
Terre Haute, IN
1969 Cutlass W-31
2 1966 GTO's - one is a parts car
1971 Skylark custom convertible - for sale
1989 Mustang LX 5.0 Hatchback

------------------------------

From: "Chris Sparks (Mr. Ada)" <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:11:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Altenator noise

Hey all,

A couple of weeks ago I had my mechanic check out my charging system.
In particular I was hearing a whine from my altenator.  My mechanic
said to me, "The whine from the altenator will be there since I had
a BB engine and that it causes the altenator to run all of the time".
Doesn't somebody make an appropriate altenator for the car.  I don't
want to have an incorrect one which will be worn out before I know it.

Chris Sparks
68 442

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:17:56 -0400
Subject: Re: FW: FW: Weekend almost disaster

At 05:38 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>At 05:14 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>>> Sorry, but the original answer/question was right.

Blah, blah, blah...
  [SNIP]

>>Frank Boerger//Tallahassee/FL

>Frank,
>I'm with you.
>Cliff Feiler

That's great, Cliff!  How about trimming your reply next time!
- --
Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS
dpauliso@gate.net

------------------------------

From: "Jason Hairston" <jth442@flash.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:24:24 -0400
Subject: Re: cutlass

I know what you mean about being stuck in generation gap.

- ----------
> From: Peg O'Connor <peg@grove.ufl.edu>
> To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
> Subject: Re: cutlass
> Date: Thursday, November 21, 1996 2:41 AM
>
> > I have a 1979 olds cutlass.  With a 403 and a th400 and i am looking
for a
> > company that just sell olds parts.  Like heads, superchargers,
headers, > > high rise manifolds, and all that good stuff.  thanks > >
Good luck.  Shoot, if you find a place like that, let *me* know.  I've >
been trying to find parts for my '78 Calais, but it's too new for Year
One > and too old (believe it or not) for a majority of junkyards around
here. > Stuck in a generation gap (sigh) . . . . > > 8) > peg > >

------------------------------

From: "Jason Hairston" <jth442@flash.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:25:08 -0400
Subject: Re: cutlass

I know what you mean about being stuck in generation gap.

Jason Hairston
77  442

- ----------
> From: Peg O'Connor <peg@grove.ufl.edu>
> To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
> Subject: Re: cutlass
> Date: Thursday, November 21, 1996 2:41 AM
>
> > I have a 1979 olds cutlass.  With a 403 and a th400 and i am looking
for a
> > company that just sell olds parts.  Like heads, superchargers,
headers, > > high rise manifolds, and all that good stuff.  thanks > >
Good luck.  Shoot, if you find a place like that, let *me* know.  I've >
been trying to find parts for my '78 Calais, but it's too new for Year
One > and too old (believe it or not) for a majority of junkyards around
here. > Stuck in a generation gap (sigh) . . . . > > 8) > peg > >

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 21:25:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Altenator noise

Chris Sparks (Mr. Ada) wrote:
>
> Hey all,
>
> A couple of weeks ago I had my mechanic check out my charging system.
> In particular I was hearing a whine from my altenator.  My mechanic
> said to me, "The whine from the altenator will be there since I had
> a BB engine and that it causes the altenator to run all of the time".

Chris,

Your mechanic is either:

1) A real jokester.
2) A real dork.
3) Looking for a quick buck.

By a "whine" do you mean a mechanical whine that you hear outside the
car or one that you can hear throught the radio?  A mechanical whine
would probably be due to bearings or some internal rotating part.  A
whine in the radio is probably caused by poor filtering, poor
connections, funky regulator, etc.

And while we're on the subject, what SB does he know about that has a
part time altenator?  (It's belt driven -- no clutch.  They all run all
the time.)

> Doesn't somebody make an appropriate altenator for the car.  I don't
> want to have an incorrect one which will be worn out before I know it.

Or an incorrect mechanic.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 21:27:21 -0400
Subject: [Fwd: [Toro] 66 FOR SALE!]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- --------------64A72A04E15
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For all you guys and gals just itching
to come over to the other side.   ;)

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

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SALE! Message-ID:
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Very solid. Has been in a coma in a colorado barn half it's life.
51,000 original miles. Much restoration potential or excellent
driver as is.
Power windows, steering, brakes
Tinted glass
Air
reply direct to mdl@umich.edu or call:
313-483-8133



- --------------64A72A04E15--

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:26:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Altenator noise

>A couple of weeks ago I had my mechanic check out my charging system.
>In particular I was hearing a whine from my altenator.  My mechanic
>said to me, "The whine from the altenator will be there since I had
>a BB engine and that it causes the altenator to run all of the time".

Huh?  Is this mechanic certified (ASE or whatever)?  The size of the
engine will not make a difference in the operation of the alternator.
They all work the same.  If it's whining all the time, it's probably a
bearing going bad. - -- Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile
Cutlass Supreme Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse
GS dpauliso@gate.net

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:28:16 -0400
Subject: Re: My little olds expense list

At 12:33 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Rented 1st Cherry Picker		$ 30
>(defective, but I didn't know)
>
>motor & tranny fell on me!

>Rented 2nd Cherry Picker 		$ 20

The first hoist was defective, the engine fell, and they made you pay to
rent the second one?  Bummer...
- --
Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS
dpauliso@gate.net

------------------------------

From: George Torch <curiousg@crown.icongrp.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 21:28:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Altenator noise

Chris Sparks (Mr. Ada) wrote:
>
> Hey all,
>
> A couple of weeks ago I had my mechanic check out my charging system.
> In particular I was hearing a whine from my altenator.  My mechanic
> said to me, "The whine from the altenator will be there since I had
> a BB engine and that it causes the altenator to run all of the time".
> Doesn't somebody make an appropriate altenator for the car.  I don't
> want to have an incorrect one which will be worn out before I know it.
>
> Chris Sparks
> 68 442

 Huh?  Where is this whine comming from?  The alternator itself or your
radio?  The alternator is hooked directly to your engine by a belt there
 is no turning it on or off (unlike your A/C compressor which has a
clutch).  You may have a bad bearing if the noise is comming from the
alternator.  If its out of the radio you could have bad brushes or 1
diode in the regulator could have taken a dump.

 Time to find a new mechanic.

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:43:41 -0400
Subject: Re[2]: GM Trivia


Assuming you are right, which you might be,

          I also recall hearing about using a Buick engine to start
those
          engines.

then we had better notify the Producers of Wings. I just so happened to
catch it a few weeks ago and I remember the narrator distinctly saying
that "Chevy"

          Haven't you all learned yet that to the outside world,
GM=Chevy?

engines were used to start the SR-71.

          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 19:16:53 -0400
Subject: Re[2]: Altenator noise

Hey all,

A couple of weeks ago I had my mechanic check out my charging system.
In particular I was hearing a whine from my alternator.  My mechanic
said to me, "The whine from the alternator will be there since I had
a BB engine and that it causes the alternator to run all of the time".
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
          Chris, RUN, DON"T WALK to a new mechanic.  Unless you have
          some heretofore unheard of clutch assembly on the front of
          your alternator, this is total BS.  Of course the alternator
          runs all the time - it has a drive belt directly connected
          to the engine.  Perhaps he (I'll make a sexist assumption
          here and assume the mechanic was male) was referring to the
          actual load on the alternator resulting from higher current
          draw, which is more a function of electrical devices on the
          car (ear-melting stereo, a/c, driving lights, etc) than the
          engine size.

          In my experience, a whine from a Delco alternator (aka
          Delcotron) is the death cry of the front bearing.  This
          bearing takes all the load from the drive belt, particularly
          the lateral loads resulting from tensioning the belt.
          Excessively tight belts will result in accelerated failure
          of this bearing, as well as the water pump bearing.  Don't
          be too quick to assume that just because the bearing is
          going out that the belt is too tight, however, as this _is_
          a normal wear item.

          Oh, by the way, excessively revving the engine can also lead
          to premature alternator bearing failure ;)

 Doesn't somebody make an appropriate alternator for the car.

          Virtually all Delco external regulator alternators are
          identical (at least mechanically), with the primary
          difference being the output amperage.  Again, the difference
          is driven by the electrical load on the car (a function of
          the accessories), not the engine size.

I don't want to have an incorrect one which will be worn out before I
know it.

          Usually I just buy the parts (bearings and brushes,
          primarily) and rebuild it myself.  I've not had good success
          with most aftermarket rebuilt alternators.  I had a tour of
          a company which rebuilds alternators and starters once.  It
          was pretty scary.  The one thing which sticks in my mind was
          the assembly station at which the new front bearing was
          installed.  This bearing is a sealed ball bearing unit which
          is about 1.5 inches in diameter.  It is nominally a light
          press fit into the cast aluminum alternator housing (about
          0.002 -0.003 inches of clearance), however it will jam up if
          not properly aligned or if the bearing cocks at all during
          the installation.  The operator at that station would use a
          small press to install the new bearings.  About 50% went in
          properly; the others cocked or jammed and did not get fully
          installed.  These latter were "reworked" by the operator
          with a 2lb sledge hammer and put in the same bin as the
          properly assembled units.

          An interesting aside:  While a student at MIT, I had a
          part-time job at the C.S. Draper Labs in Cambridge, MA.  I
          worked in the Man-Machine Lab, where we were performing
          robotic assembly experiments.  The focus at the time (almost
          20 years ago) was the robotic assembly of Ford alternators.
          This front bearing installation was far and away the
          toughest part of the task and lead to the development and
          patenting of a number of special compliance and force
          sensing devices.

          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: Scott R Clark <mickeyd@selway.umt.edu>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 19:28:37 -0400
Subject: New mechanic or new alternator...was Re: Altenator noise

> >A couple of weeks ago I had my mechanic check out my charging system.
> >In particular I was hearing a whine from my altenator.  My mechanic
> >said to me, "The whine from the altenator will be there since I had
> >a BB engine and that it causes the altenator to run all of the time".
>
> Huh?  Is this mechanic certified (ASE or whatever)?  The size of the
engine > will not make a difference in the operation of the alternator.
They all > work the same.  If it's whining all the time, it's probably a
bearing going bad.

	My thoughts exactly.  Did he recomend new muffler bearings or new
johnson rods too?  8) Sounds kinda like telling you to get a new upper
radiator hose for you VW Bug.  Sorry, but it sounds like time to get a
new mechanic, and probibly a rebuild alternator (unless you can find
just a replacement bearing.)

				Scott
			1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98

------------------------------

From: Scott R Clark <mickeyd@selway.umt.edu>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 19:50:25 -0400
Subject: Re: GM Trivia

> >2. There is rumor that the Blackbird was replaced by something
> >newer, and occasionally referenced by the term: "soap-on-a-rope."
> >Oldsmobile borrowed the alleged name of this alleged aircraft for one
> >of its car lines, probably my accident.  What?

> >Aurora.  The "soap-on-a-rope" reference comes from sightings of the
> >exhaust from these reportedly mach 5 planes, which has also been
> >described as resembling a string of pearls.  These sightings have led
 > >to speculation that the planes are powered by some sort of ramjet >
>engine which does not have constant combustion.

	Just as a side note, I remember learning abouth these things in my
Avation Science class in high school.  If I remember correctly (and as
I've said before my memory is not the best) they don't use a ramjet or
scramjet, but a pulsejet.  The way I remember it, a shockwave from the
detonation of fuel is used to compress freshly injected fuel to
something like 60:1 (hows that for Ultra High Compression!!) and at that
high of a compression the fresh fuel detonates, and the shockwave is
reflected back to compress more freshly injected fuel, sustaing the
process.  The fact that the detonation occours in spurts produces the
"string of pearls" effect.  Pretty cool. 	 	And to keep this Olds
related....imagine putting one of thoes things on the back of your
Cutlass/98/Toro/88/etc....it would definetly put the "Rocket" back into
your Olds! 	 				Scott 
			1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98

------------------------------

From: Todd Morris <tmorris@bt1dc18e.bet.ibm.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 19:49:24 -0400
Subject: Re: 1970 cutlass engine swap



Summit has supercomps for around $280, and that includes shipping.
However, the word is that the supercomps use thinner metal flanges and
are less heavy duty than the regular competition headers, which are
much cheaper at around $120.  The supercomps are made for racing,
apparently.



>They come with 1 7/8 tubes with 3 and half inch collectors.
>the cost for the headers at Super Shops is about 319.00 add another
>180.00 for ceramic coating.


Todd Morris
71 442

------------------------------

From: Dana and Mary Taylor <dmtaylor@pop.tiac.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 00:13:47 -0400
Subject: Re: FW: Weekend almost disaster

> Well, yeah, but once compressed I would think it to be somewhat
stable. > And over time, and especially while under pressure, is it
possible for > the air pocket to be absorbed by the oil? >Actually it
would become somewhat stable but at 35 lbs (for example) for a amount
of time then you reduce rpm thus lowering the pressure to 30 the air
would then expand the amount of the 5 lbs thereby producing a lag in
guage responce.  No it would not be absorbed by the oil. A large bubble
my becone dispursed in the tube producing many small bubbles though.



> No argument there, although you can "pump up the pedal" if time
permits.(!) Not revelant to the discusson. Although if your belief were
true one could leave only air in the lines and pump the pedal many
times to stop the car. > > > Agreed; this is apples and oranges. The
vacuum booster on the brake system > is there to add mechanical pressure
to the line; the air pressure (or > vacuum, depending on how you want to
view it) is "amplified" in a way by > having force over a wide area (the
diaphragm) focused on one actuating > point, the master cylinder
plunger.

This is exactly my point. The air over and the vacuum assist amplifies
the pressure applied by your foot. It is not air pressure in the brake
line.
>

>
> the engine is first started... but it never squirts out of the gauge,
even

Again you are expressing my point.  Also oil or air should not squirt
out of the guage.. But previous oil guage instructions and in trade
school we learned that you bleed the guage by starting the engine -
placing a rag under the connection of line to guage - then cracking the
fitting slightly until you see only oil leaking from fitting. If you
have the nylon hose you can see when all the air is gone.

> after years of service, and it never drains back, either. I have one
used >Right again - unless there is a leak at the guage or the fitting
the oil will not drain back into the engine because in order for the
oil to leave the line air (or something else) must enter the line. The
surface tension of the oil and the size of the tube will not allow air
to enter from the engine end. Just like a straw full of water will stay
full as long as you hold your finger over the end.

> Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
> Datalogics, Inc.
> 101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
> Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:14:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Counting Pennies (Was: Re: no longer a pig in the corners)

At 05:50 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
Snip>

>rational? If it was about that we would all probably be driving
>2-year-old Toyotas or whatever. Here's the only mention of money in
>this message: just my $0.02 on the subject.
>
>As Bob Handren says, just "enjoy the ride"!
>
>Greg Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia,
Canada > > Toyota's?  Oh, no we wouldn't, I want a car you get into, not
one you put on.

Cliff Feiler

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:16:55 -0400
Subject: Parts

Anyone looking for used parts, check out http://www.autopartsused.com --
they have a lot of Oldsmobiles in their "currently dismantling" list.
- --
Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS
dpauliso@gate.net

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:23:52 -0400
Subject: RE: GM Trivia

At 03:46 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>3. This gives away one of the earlier, and as yet unanswered questions.
>During WWII the Eastern Division of GM, built airplanes for the Navy.
What kind? >Cliff Feiler > >  I know!  I know!  The Grumman FM-2
Wildcat.  9 cylinders, 1350hp.  The >  standard Grumman, the F4F used an
18 cylinder motor (two sets of 9), >  with less hp.  Just the plane for
the man who likes big jugs! >  dj >Whew, at least I knew one of the
trivia questions. > Good grief, another right answer.  Eastern built at
least three variants of WWII naval aircraft.  The FM2 and as well as the
FM1 were variants of the F4F Grumman Hellcat.  They also built a variant
of the Grumman TBF called the TBM.

Good show.

Cliff Feiler

------------------------------

From: Dana and Mary Taylor <dmtaylor@pop.tiac.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 00:40:51 -0400
Subject: Re: FW: Weekend almost disaster

> First: I do not believe that air in the o.p. gauge line will cause
> inaccurate pressure readings.

For all practical purposes you are 99% right. The inaccracy is not
revelant if even noticable but it does not change the fact that air
will alter the reading. In todays guages it mouldn't even be
detectable.


> when the system reaches equilibrium that the gauge is reading the same
as it > would with or without air.  Again right but it is the variations
in pressure that the air will not reflect the same as the oil.


> applied to the oil that stayed in the journal, and as it is replaced
with > new oil, the heat ends up in the oil pan.

Yes, But if the oil is traveling too fast to accumulate the heat and
carry it to the pan bearing falure will result

------------------------------

From: WMACHINES@aol.com
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:37:30 -0400
Subject: Re: 1970 cutlass engine swap

In a message dated 96-11-21 19:01:33 EST, you write:

<< Summit has supercomps for around $280, and that includes shipping.
 However, the word is that
 the supercomps use thinner metal flanges and are less heavy duty than
the regular
 competition headers, which are much cheaper at around $120.  The
supercomps are made for
 racing, apparently.



 >They come with 1 7/8 tubes with 3 and half inch collectors.
 >the cost for the headers at Super Shops is about 319.00 add another
 >180.00 for ceramic coating.  >>

I have had no problems with the flanges, my headers are on a street car
that is driven alot.  I also have 9 other friends with the same headers
and have been using them over the past 5 years or so and again no
problems.

W MACHINES

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:38:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Clarification & SB/BB gasket sets

At 11:34 AM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:

Snip>

>>
>There is an enormous amount of interchangability between Olds engines
from >at least the 307 to the 455.  Not everything will interchange, but
many >things will. > >Sort of like what you said about the Poncho. >
>Cliff Feiler > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >What are some of the
things that can interchange?  I know that pulleys from a >350 can go on
a 455, as I've done this.  I know one person on this list has C >heads
on a 350, wouldn't  there be blocked coolant passages or anything like
>that.  In theory, could I put 455 exhaust manifolds/headers on 350
heads and >put that on a 425 block, not that I would do this, I'm just
curious.  Thanks >Cliff. > >Chris Smetana >Terre Haute, IN >1969
Cutlass W-31 >2 1966 GTO's - one is a parts car >1971 Skylark custom
convertible - for sale >1989 Mustang LX 5.0 Hatchback > Thats actually
quite close.  Olds made lots of parts that would bolt up, between many,
if not all, of their engines between the 307 and the 455 (this comes
from a bit of actual experience, changing over ex 350-diesels to
whatever.)  My knwoedge only pertains to the late '60s thru 1984 too;
but that is where most of the area of interest is with this group.
I've had several Olds 350 diesel engine blocks that have been donor
engines for a lot of things.  And you you mention, heads, manifolds,
etc.  As a matter of fact, this was bluntly pointed out to me was when I
went looking for set of B body exhaust manifolds for the 455 I was
putting in a B body Olds.  The parts man told me to use the old ones,
they would fit perfectly.  And they did?  Also, B body exhaust manifolds
may bolt on to say a Toronado engine, but may not work because of
clearances!

Bolts, pulleys in sets at least, engine brackets, fittings, almost
everything.  Valley covers and inside the valley stuff is where the
interchangibilty seems to end, or at least slow down.  Basically the
engineering changes came in the area of deck height.  This is NOT to say
that you will get satisfactory performance by substituting heads, for
example from a 307 to a 455; as the compression ratio may be very high
or very low, or whatever; and the valves may not let the engine breath;
but they will bolt on, and I suppose run the engine after a fashion.
Mechnical interchangeability is what Olds has give us, and combustion
chamber volumes and valves can be changed too, which might bring a lowly
307 head, and make it perform perfectly on a hot 455; but then again it
may cost more to alter one that find the proper one in the first place.

Cliff Feiler
Oldsmobilist

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:41:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Altenator noise

At 06:11 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Hey all,
>
>A couple of weeks ago I had my mechanic check out my charging system.
>In particular I was hearing a whine from my altenator.  My mechanic
>said to me, "The whine from the altenator will be there since I had
>a BB engine and that it causes the altenator to run all of the time".
>Doesn't somebody make an appropriate altenator for the car.  I don't
>want to have an incorrect one which will be worn out before I know it.
>
>Chris Sparks
>68 442
>
What?  We will eliminate the obvious and not consider the alternators
performance, when the engine is NOT running.  But when it is, it will
run all the time.  The voltage regulator will control it, but it is
generating electricty just the same.

If my wrench told me that, and I thought he was serious; I'd get a new
one. No Kidding...

Cliff Feiler
Alternately confused in Saint Louis

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:46:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Re[2]: GM Trivia

At 06:43 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Assuming you are right, which you might be,
>
>          I also recall hearing about using a Buick engine to start
those >          engines. > >then we had better notify the Producers of
Wings. I just so happened to catch it >a few weeks ago and I remember
the narrator distinctly saying that "Chevy" > >          Haven't you all
learned yet that to the outside world, GM=Chevy? > >engines were used to
start the SR-71. > >          Joe Padavano >
jpada@hqgate.orbital.com > >          66 442 >          68
W-30 >          69 H/O >          70 W-30 > > > Get the Squadron
Publication's "Aircraft in Action, SR71" book, and they tell us it's
Buicks.

Down home GM either way.

Cliff Feiler
Duplexed in Saint Louis

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:47:22 -0400
Subject: Re: New mechanic or new alternator...was Re: Altenator noise

At 07:28 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>> >A couple of weeks ago I had my mechanic check out my charging
system. >> >In particular I was hearing a whine from my altenator.  My
mechanic >> >said to me, "The whine from the altenator will be there
since I had >> >a BB engine and that it causes the altenator to run all
of the time". >> >> Huh?  Is this mechanic certified (ASE or whatever)?
The size of the engine >> will not make a difference in the operation of
the alternator.  They all >> work the same.  If it's whining all the
time, it's probably a bearing going bad. > >	My thoughts exactly.  Did
he recomend new muffler bearings or new >johnson rods too?  8) Sounds
kinda like telling you to get a new upper >radiator hose for you VW Bug.
Sorry, but it sounds like time to get a new >mechanic, and probibly a
rebuild alternator (unless you can find just a >replacement bearing.) >
>				Scott >			1960 
Oldsmobile Rocket 98 > I've never heard of Johnson
rods, but I'll bet you don't know what a Johnson bar is?

The Wiz

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:50:32 -0400
Subject: Re: GM Trivia

At 07:50 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
Snip>>


>> >Aurora.  The "soap-on-a-rope" reference comes from sightings of the

More snip>> (see I'm doing it)
>
>	Just as a side note, I remember learning abouth these things in my
>Avation Science class in high school.  If I remember correctly (and as
>I've said before my memory is not the best) they don't use a ramjet or
>scramjet, but a pulsejet.  The way I remember it, a shockwave from the
>detonation of fuel is used to compress freshly injected fuel to
something >like 60:1 (hows that for Ultra High Compression!!) and at
that high of a >compression the fresh fuel detonates, and the shockwave
is reflected back >to compress more freshly injected fuel, sustaing the
process.  The fact >that the detonation occours in spurts produces the
"string of pearls" >effect.  Pretty cool. >	 >	And to keep this 
Olds
related....imagine putting one of thoes >things on the back of your
Cutlass/98/Toro/88/etc....it would definetly >put the "Rocket" back into
your Olds! >	 >				Scott 
>			1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98 >

Wow, their teaching it in High School, and I accidentally found some of
this stuff "Aviation Leak." (Aviation Week and Space Technology)

Cliff Feiler
High and flying

------------------------------

From: George Torch <curiousg@crown.icongrp.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 00:11:14 -0400
Subject: Re: New mechanic or new alternator...was Re: Altenator noise

C >
> >                               Scott
> >                       1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98
> >
> I've never heard of Johnson rods, but I'll bet you don't know what a
Johnson > bar is? > > The Wiz

I KNOW! I KNOW!
  Its that thing that turns your alternator on and off right?
And when its not doing that you can take it off your big block and drag
around those extra big blocks you have sittin on your garage floor!

 George

 62 Dynamic 88
 66 Corvair Monza
 90 Geo Storm

------------------------------

From: Chris Urban <urbanch@magi.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 21:47:02 -0400
Subject: RE: Batten heads

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBD7ED.C97C2D00
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yep I've had a few sets of these heads and also have a set on my drag =
car at the moment. The reason that I thought I'd see if anyone had any =
are because these things are dam expensive and are a safe bet when when
= bought used.

- ----------
From: 	sbento@mecn.mass.edu[SMTP:sbento@mecn.mass.edu]
Sent: 	Wednesday, November 20, 1996 8:56 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: 	Batten heads


Chris,

I was over a friends house the other night and I was thumbing through
a=20 Popular Hotrodding magazine and saw an ad for"Hi flow  Olds street
= heads"=20 made by Batten, they are avaiable in  iron or aluminum. Have
you, or=20 anyone else out there priced these or have any experience
with them?? = the=20 ad also claimed that they flow 25% better than "C"
heads!!

Thanks,

Steve
71 Cutlass S 455
93 Mustang LX 5.0


On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Chris Urban wrote:

> I know everyone will tell you Mondello but if you want to get some =3D
> serious stuff contact Dave Smith Oldsmobile or Batten performance. =
These =3D
> are the only serious Olds parts suppliers.
>=20
> ----------
> From: 	Vicki Lee Peterson[SMTP:gs02vlp@panther.gsu.edu]
> Sent: 	Tuesday, November 19, 1996 8:33 PM
> To: 	oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
> Subject: 	cutlass
>=20
> I have a 1979 olds cutlass.  With a 403 and a th400 and i am looking =
for =3D
> a
> company that just sell olds parts.  Like heads, superchargers, =
headers,
> high rise manifolds, and all that good stuff.  thanks
>=20
> JEFF=3D20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20




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------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:42:15 -0400
Subject: Re: New mechanic or new alternator...was Re: Altenator noise

At 12:11 AM 11/22/96 -0400, you wrote:
>C >
>> >                               Scott
>> >                       1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98
>> >
>> I've never heard of Johnson rods, but I'll bet you don't know what a
Johnson >> bar is? >> >> The Wiz > >I KNOW! I KNOW! >  Its that thing
that turns your alternator on and off right? >And when its not doing
that you can take it off your big block and drag >around those extra
big blocks you have sittin on your garage floor! > > George > > 62
Dynamic 88 > 66 Corvair Monza > 90 Geo Storm > Just one more thought.  I
remember the entertainment at a stag party one night, and one of the
entertainers used the term "Johnson" a lot.  But then we were at a
Howard Johnson; whom I remember well as the man that developed the
"clutch of eggs" concept that allows alternators to have intermitment
operation.  Question: is that why they stopped using generators and went
to alternators, to get non-continuous operation?

The Wiz Was?

------------------------------

From: Chuck Rowe <badgeman@tcac.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 23:03:09 -0400
Subject: Re: New mechanic or new alternator...was Re: Altenator noise

  Question: is that why they stopped using generators and went to
>alternators, to get non-continuous operation?
>
>The Wiz Was?


Generators produce DC and alternators produce AC. There is less line
loss with AC. Further, it can be transformed (as in an ingnition coil)
whereas DC has to be converted to pulsed DC or converted to AC (syne or
square wave) with an inverter. It is easier and more efficient to
convert AC to DC when DC is needed than to convert DC to AC when AC is
needed.

chuck

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 23:13:54 -0400
Subject: Re: New mechanic or new alternator...was Re: Altenator noise

At 11:03 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
>  Question: is that why they stopped using generators and went to
>>alternators, to get non-continuous operation?
>>
>>The Wiz Was?
>
>
>Generators produce DC and alternators produce AC. There is less line
loss >with AC. Further, it can be transformed (as in an ingnition coil)
whereas DC >has to be converted to pulsed DC or converted to AC (syne or
square wave) >with an inverter. It is easier and more efficient to
convert AC to DC when >DC is needed than to convert DC to AC when AC is
needed. > >chuck > > Hum!  How did you get this reply back so fast, were
you waiting for it?

Question: where is AC current required in a car?  2nd as a an adjunct to
the first part, where is it required, I mean required for operation, not
merely convenient?  3rd where is it convenient?

Honestly I can think of anywhere!

The Wiz Wonders

------------------------------

From: BobH592058@aol.com
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 23:24:26 -0400
Subject: Motor mounts

>>I had the first "bad-motor" mount experience that our local Ch*vy
dealer had >>seen.  It was covered under that massive recall.

>>The symptoms were, according to the nootice, " As you turn left and
accelerate,
>>the steering locks to the left and the vehicle may accelerate
>>uncontrollably"...and it happened just that way in our old '67 Ch*vy
wagon, with >>a 283//powerglide.....what a rush on a Saturday night !!
You'd be surprised how >>fast you can grab the key hanging out of the
dash !!  They installed the >>safety-cable loops from the engine to,  I
think, the upper control arm shaft...

Hmmm, a JC motor mount?

"Enjoy the Ride!"

Bob Handren        OCA/OCF# 7728
'67 W-30 Modified     '70 SX Convertible
Oviedo, FL

Handren Associates, Inc.
FDA Medical Device Regulatory Affairs
Laser/Optical Radiation Safety
(407)365-6385

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 23:31:55 -0400
Subject: Trivia

Bob Barry.

Wow, you did very much better than most.

Also, I don't think several of the vehicles you mentioned were ever
marketed by GM, but were absorbed into GM, and sold rebranded as GM
brands, and two more of those are Cutting and a little more obtusely the
Little.

Also some that are/were GM brands: Yellow, Euclid, EMD, and McLaughlin.

Perfect answer on Dynaflow.

3. Is a stinker, as it was a military vehicle, the M114 series Armored
Command and Reconnance vehicles.

4.  You really were on the correct track here.  It was the parent
vehicle to the DUKW "Duck."  The 2-1/2 ton, 6x6, CCKW, "Jimmy," was made
in greater numbers than the Jeep, during the war, although the numbers
were not that far appart.  There were just under 1,000,000 jeeps, and
just over six bys.

The (part 2) special manufacturing concern, was that the truck was the
largest vehicle that could be produced on ordinary assembly lines, ie,
automobile.

I left this one get by (by not making it a question), but maybe
shouldn't have.  Since Korea a 2.5 T truck is called a duce and a half,
during WWII it was known as either a six by, or a Jimmy.  Probably could
have used that, but this bunch would never believe it.

Cliff Feiler

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 23:47:41 -0400
Subject: Re: GM transmission Trivia

In a message dated 96-11-20 22:31:45 EST, you write:

> What was the division's name at that time (note: it was not
Hydra-Matic).

It was called the Detroit Transmission Division, organized in 1939
because although Oldsmobile developed the Hydra-Matic, they had no room
to produce it.

Paul

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 23:47:54 -0400
Subject: Re: GM transmission Trivia

In a message dated 96-11-21 11:54:20 EST, you write:

> display ad for the 1939 Oldsmobile extolling the virtues
>  of their new automatic transmission. (I _think_ it said '39...)

Two possibilities:

The ad was really for the '40 models

or

The ad was for the '39s but was really touting the (semi-automatic)
Automatic Safety Transmission.  Worked like this:

1.  AUTOMATIC OPERATION.  Gears shift themselves automatically in both
foward speed ranges, giving you four-speed flexibility at the touch of a
finger.

2.  MINIMUM USE OF CLUTCH.  It is unnecessary to use the clutch except
to start and stop.  Changes from one forward speed to the other require
no declutching.  Reduces clutch use by two-thirds.

3.  SUPER PERFORMANCE.  In all speed ranges, performance in improved by
the smoothness, flexibility and responsiveness of the Automatic Safety
Transmission.

4.  SUPER DRIVE.  A special fourth gear swings into action at
approximately 23 miles per hour and makes cruising smoother, quieter and
more enjoyable.

5.  SPECIAL PICK-UP GEAR.  Supplies extra acceleration for passing other
cars and additional power for hillclimbing.  Another definite safety
advantage.

6.  SAVES MONEY ON GAS AND OIL.  Actual tests as well as owner
experience show remarkable savings on gas and oil.  Engine wear and
upkeep are also reduced.

YOU OUGHT TO OWN AN OLDS!

>From the '39 sales brochure.

Paul
The book guy.

------------------------------

From: mike.blankenship@medaphis.com
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 23:50:45 -0400
Subject: Counting Pennies (Was: Re: no longer a pig in the corners)

Well Ive got a barn story.  June 2 1996, a buddy calls me and says his
grandmas neighbor has a old pontiac he needs to get rid of.  I went over
to look hoping for a GTO or something, there in a old run down barn is
the "old pontiac" a 66 442 hardtop, close ratio 4 speed, 355 posi, a/c,
no power steering, no power brakes, reclining passenger seat, 125,000
miles, not driven since 1982.  The old fella ordered the car in 1965 and
took delivery in feb 1966.  I bought it, put in a battery, changed oil,
plugs, points, rear end dope, antifreeze, bled the brakes, emptied the
gas tank and was on the road in 1 day, two months later it was at the
1996 Nationals in the beater class.

Mike
66 442
69 H/O
70 Judge
70 W30
71 442 convt.

-
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- I always get a charge out of the folks I encounter who say they've
found a car in a barn somewhere after being stored for 20 or 30 years,
maybe invest in a tank of gas, a change of oil or a battery, and then
say they have a working car. It may technically be running, but I sure
wouldn't want to drive it! I never seem to find these beasts.

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Lavey" <rjlavey@rmci.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 00:19:34 -0400
Subject: VIN vs. Cowl Tag

Hi Gang,

Is is possible that the cowl tag and the VIN of my '68 442 would not
necessarily match?  The cowl tag looks like:

        11C
    ST  68-33687  LAN188350  BODY
    TR  940          G-2     PAINT

and the VIN is 34487M186943.  I would have expected the cowl tag to look
like:

        11C
    ST  68-34487  LAN188350  BODY
    TR  940          G-2     PAINT

since the VIN identifies the series as a 442 2-door Holiday Coupe
(34487). Why, then, would the cowl tag proclaim the series to be a
Cutlass 2-door Holiday Coupe (33687)?

This car has been in my family since 1979.  My brother owned it from
1979 until 1992, and I have owned it since.  The car has the original
engine (at least it has the 186943 stamped in the block below the left
head).

The car hasn't had the VIN changed (since 1979) and has never been
wrecked (again, since 1979).  Yet, if the VIN WAS changed, someone went
to a lot of trouble to swap a bunch of 442 pieces into a Cutlass.  The
car has a 4-speed, 3.42 posi, 400 engine, no a/c, no power brakes, no
power steering, and all the right 442 emblems (and fender stripes).  The
car was repainted in 1985, and the stripes were re-applied.  My brother
owned a body shop at that time and did all the work.  He said it was the
original paint, and that he found no evidence of previous bodywork or
repainting.  I've since redone the interior and didn't find anything
unusual under the carpet.  The hole for the 4-speed looked
factory-installed (as opposed to a hack-and-slash automatic-to-manual
conversion).

I'm really perplexed about how a car could so obviously be a 442 except
for the cowl tag.


Thanks for any help.
Bob
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
 Robert J. Lavey                         email: rjlavey@rmci.net
 13243 W. Dahlia Dr.                     Home:  (208) 939-5418
 Boise, ID  83713-1302                   Fax:   (208) 939-5452
- -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: Howard H <howardh@sundial.sundial.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 01:01:04 -0400
Subject: Weatherstrips, Rubber Products, etc

Does anyone have any experience (good or bad) dealing with any of the
aftermarket rubber seal manufacturers or distributors? How about quality
and price difference from OEM? My '84 Hurst is in need of a little resto
of door seals, belt rubbers and T-Top seals, etc. I read the post about
Metro and I've e-mailed 'em for their catalog, but I'd like to hear some
other experiences. Thanks for the help!

Howard Hosenbold
Orlando, Fl. -> T-Tops all year round!! :)
OCA
HOCA
OCF


------------------------------

From: Brad Baker <bradbaker@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 01:16:56 -0400
Subject: Spare parts/won't start

At 05:46 11/20/1996 +0000, you wrote:
>Hi guys,
>  What do you have for my '68 Brad??  The car is in storage now, but
>we could go and check it out if you wanted to see it.  As far as the
>70-72 fenders go, I'm still not sure if the guy is selling or what,
>but I think so.  He's been REALLY tough to get a hold of, eventhough
>I know where he works (car is outside of his place of business.)
>
>Bye,
>Craig.

Well, I don't have any spare parts in my garage to speak of, but I would
see about picking something up for you at the junkyard near-by if you
need me to. I remember you asking for suggestions about putting your car
up for the winter. What kinds of things did you do? I haven't driven my
car or even started it for that matter in about 6 weeks. The last time I
tried to start it, I had trouble getting it to run. I had to spray some
starter fluid in the carb and then jump in to turn it over. It would
start to run,but then died after the fluid ran out. If I pull the
throttle and look in the carb I can see some jets of gas,but only on the
first pull. I thought that you could see gas squirt every time. I'm not
sure what the problem is,but I am not going to bother with it until
spring now. I'm going to have to leave the car outside because I only
have a one car garage and that is where Honey's car will be parked when
it snows. Any suggestions for what I should do to winterize my carparked
outside? I just bought it this summer and I don't think it's seen the
inside of a garage for many a season anyway. One more winter outside
won't kill it. Thanks for any help you may be able to give....

Brad  '68 Cutlass S Convertible
bradbaker@worldnet.att.net

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@sequent1.providence.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 01:11:24 -0400
Subject: Olds Non-interchangeability (was Re: Clarification & SB/BB
gasket sets)

At 07:38 PM 11/21/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>There is an enormous amount of interchangability between Olds engines
from >>at least the 307 to the 455.  Not everything will interchange,
but many >>things will.

Here's what I *know* is different, and thus will not interchange
directly (though anything can be modified):

* '77-'79 403's, 350's and all year 350 Diesels used 1/2" head bolts;
all others used 7/16" head bolts. Thus the use of any other head
requires reaming out the holes.

* BBO heads will physically bolt onto 7/16" bolt blocks, but there will
be a massive port mismatch between the head and the SBO intake (an
Edelbrock Performer RPM can apparently be ported to match, however).
Besides, in anything besides a 403 the compression ratio will drop a
full point or more.

* Pushrods and intake manifolds & gaskets do not interchange between SBO
and BBO

* Gasoline SBO crank journals and rod journals are smaller than BBO and
diesel SBO journals, and rod length is different between SBO and BBO

* SBO used 7/16" main bolts, except on the #5 cap (1/2" bolts); BBO used
1/2" bolts on all mains.

* The passenger-side BBO Cutlass dual-exhaust manifold will not fit a
SBO, due to interference with the oil filter mount (caused by lower deck
height; I know 'cause I tried on my 403)

_Then_ there is the entire category of valvetrain interchangeability.
Chronologically:

* '64-'65 SBO and '65 BBO used shaft-mounted rocker systems, completely
different from the later pedestal-style systems.

* From 1964-1967, 39' cam bank angle (Toronado only) vs 45' cam bank
angle (all non-Toro motors)- thus problems with camshaft
interchangeability

* 1966-1967 Toronado 425 blocks were bored for larger-diameter .921"
lifters

* ALL cams and lifters from 1968-1984 are interchangeable.

* Roller-cam blocks (some '85's and all (?) later 307's) use a larger
diameter roller lifter (.921").

* The later 307's used a thicker pushrod; I don't know the years.

That's about all that I can think of over the 25 year run of this
engine, in all its different permutations, that can't be directly
interchanged. Not too bad, for us folks wanting to build these bad boys!
_______________________________________________________ Dr. Robert Barry
MailTo:RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu Theology Dept, Providence College,
Providence, RI 02918

------------------------------

From: FERRERO@uno.cc.geneseo.edu
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 00:25:14 -0400
Subject: Resto  Tips  .....

up.  Now that i have it working again, here come the resto tips...


to dry) the more paint it will strip.  This is okay for horizantal
surfaces where the stripper can just sit, but what about vertical
surfaces where the stripper will drip / run off??   well, if you have an
old metal screen from a screen door or from your hardware store, put it
on the vertical surfaces (which can usually stay on with magnets as tacs
to hold it in place) and put on the chemical.  the screen holds more of
the stripper in place for a longer period of time on the vertical
surfaces and helps with your paint stripping!



Remember, have your tips in by the first week in December.  During my
December break at college, I will go through and "edit" all of the Resto
 Tips for a "hand book" and try to organize it into appropriate areas
for a table of contents.  Once this is done, I and a few of my collegues
will be trying each of these tips (mine are not elegible), and the top 3
tips will be awarded prizes.  The resto "book" will also include tips
that have not been posted on here, so it will be worth getting!  Books
will be for sale as soon as they are complete, and the price will be the
price of making the book and postage to sent it to you.  For each tip
that is sent in, if it is your "tip", your name will be with it for your
honor and glory.

This resto book is like this olds group....  it is here to help and "the
more you put into it, the better it will be"!  Keep the resto tips
coming!

Resto Corner

- --joe ferrero

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 02:05:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Resto  Tips  .....

At 12:25 AM 11/22/96 -0400, you wrote:
>up.  Now that i have it working again, here come the resto tips...
>
>
>to dry) the more paint it will strip.  This is okay for horizantal
surfaces >where the stripper can just sit, but what about vertical
surfaces where the >stripper will drip / run off??   well, if you have
an old metal screen from >a screen door or from your hardware store, put
it on the vertical surfaces >(which can usually stay on with magnets as
tacs to hold it in place) and put >on the chemical.  the screen holds
more of the stripper in place for a longer >period of time on the
vertical surfaces and helps with your paint stripping! > > > >Remember,
have your tips in by the first week in December.  During my >December
break at college, I will go through and "edit" all of the Resto >Tips
for a "hand book" and try to organize it into appropriate areas for >a
table of contents.  Once this is done, I and a few of my collegues will
be >trying each of these tips (mine are not elegible), and the top 3
tips will >be awarded prizes.  The resto "book" will also include tips
that have not been >posted on here, so it will be worth getting!  Books
will be for sale as soon >as they are complete, and the price will be
the price of making the book and >postage to sent it to you.  For each
tip that is sent in, if it is your "tip", >your name will be with it for
your honor and glory. > >This resto book is like this olds group....  it
is here to help and "the >more you put into it, the better it will be"!
Keep the resto tips coming! > >Resto Corner > >--joe ferrero > Resto Tip
No. 1

If you are stripping the paint with paint stripper, one of the best
tools to use is a razorblade scraper.  Apply some stripper, allowing it
some time to do its thing.  Then use the razor blade stripper to pick up
a small load of the goo.  Turn it over and replace the goo the other
side down.  This will bring a lot of the top side stripper into contact
with the paint, giving you not quite double duty; say 1.5!  On the
re-application use the razorblace as a sort of squeege.  It is messy,
but does give you a lot more coverage for your stripper $.  And when the
time comes to remove the goo permanetly the razor blade does a teriffic
job.

They are also good for testy gaskets, and sludgy type messes.

Cliff Feiler

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End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #376
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