To:	oldsmobile-digest @ chebucto.ns.ca@INTERNET1
cc:	 
From:	oldsmobile-digest-owner @ chebucto.ns.ca@INTERNET1 @ ABTLAB
Date:	11/08/96 06:37:06 PM
Subject:	oldsmobile-digest V1 #358


oldsmobile-digest         Friday, 8 November 1996      Volume 01 :
Number 358


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 11:03:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Oil leak

Cliff Feiler wrote:

> You can leak oil from the entire engine.  Common places are
cranklshaft > seals, oil pan gasket, valve cover gasket, intake valley
cover gasket, head > gaskets, leaking core support holes (often called
freeze plug holes), cast > iron can leak right thru the side wall.
Cures, new seals for leaky seals, > new gaskets for leaky gaskets, new
freeze plugs in to replace those in the > oil routes, whenever you tear
down an engine, paint the inside of the block > with electric motor
insulating paint (a strange orangish color); it will > often cure weep
holes in the block. (Do the same to cast iron transmission > cases). And
you will be amazed at how long the engine oil remains clean.  I > had a
327 Chevy leak from the rocker arm covers, and it was finally cured >
with two gaskets under each cover. > > The common places for
anti-freeze to leak are headgaskets, cracked heads & > blocks, bad
hoses, loose hose clamps, leaking freeze plugs, leaking heater > core,
leaking water outlet gasket, a hole in the radiator overflow tank and >
a leaking radiator (many causes). > > It is unlikely that in proper
tune, a '68 would run hotter than a '77.  The > thermostat setting/water
system pressure was surely higher in a '77 than a > '68; therein the '77
was intended to run rather hotter than the '68. > With something out of
wack, the anything is possible. > > I hope this helps.

Well your response was quite helpful!  Thank you verrrry much.  When I
brought the car back yesterday, the mechanic told me that oil can leak
from the fuel pump.  Well I was suspicious of this until he explained to
me that the fuel pump work of the oil flow in the engine to pump fuel
into the system. Seemed strange since I always thought the fuel pump
would be near the carb. In retrospect it might make sense with a
previous problem I thought I had with my transmission.  Sometimes when I
drove, I would notice that as I accelerated at a normal pace (not
flooring it) onto a freeway I would experience a sensation that the car
would be powerless.  I would let off on the gas and the power would come
back.  Weird!!!  Well this same anomaly (I watch too much Star Trek)
appeared yesterday as I got on the freeway to go to my mechanic.  That
same void in power.  I have had the down shift switch in the tranny
replaced so I really don't know what causes this strange behavior.  Does
anyone have any other clues?

Chris Sparks
68 442

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 11:09:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Junk in the front yard

Anonymous wrote:

> I have read soooo many emails concerning this topic that I feel
> compelled to reply.  My parents live in a nice house & we(my Dad & I)
...
> would build a garage to keep them in so nobody had to look at them.  I
> am also paronoid that if someone doesn't like looking at it that they
> might mess w/ it.  Well, this has gotten totally long winded and I
don't > know if it has helped anyone, but what the hell I thought I'd
share my > feelings w/ the group.

No I don't think you are paranoid.  I you are then so am I.  That is
what I think was the catalyst that forced me to get rid of my car (I was
the one who started this whole thread of discussion).  When I found my
driver side front door window smashed out, the person knew that I
probably wouldn't have gone to the expense of replacing it.  Ergo I had
to remove it.  It might have been someone at my city that set this up.

Chris Sparks

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 10:58:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Maaco

>well i was thinking of brining my 85 Delta in to get a new coat. The
paint >the company put on is fading and cracking everywhere.. I guess i
got a bad >batch from the company. Well anyway do you think it is worth
it to get the >$300 Embassodor paint job...???

What do they plan to do with the old paint? If it's cracking, it sounds
like their surface prep was all wrong; they have a lot of sanding or
Gawd-knows-what to do before slapping on their "Ambassador" paint job...

...wait, when you say "the company" do you mean Maaco or Oldsmobile...?

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 11:11:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Maaco

Anonymous wrote:

> well i was thinking of brining my 85 Delta in to get a new coat. The
paint > the company put on is fading and cracking everywhere.. I guess
i got a bad > batch from the company. Well anyway do you think it is
worth it to get the > $300 Embassodor paint job...???

If my memory serves me, I got the second from the best paint job they
provide. I am happy with it.  It all depends on what you are willing to
spend for the kind of paint job any company can provide.

Good Luck

Chris Sparks
68 442

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 11:14:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Deep GM Trivia AND classified searcher

Anonymous wrote:

> In a message dated 96-11-07 12:03:29 EST, you write:
>
> >        1. When did GM put the first metallic paint on their cars?
>
> It was at least 1939, maybe earlier.
> >
> >          2. What was it called at the time?
>
> Iridescent

The color of my 689 442 was call Teal Frost.  Was this a metallic.  I
didn't paint it the original color (I know I should have.  I saw another
car EXACTLY like mine with the original color.  I was breathless) but
did paint it a color I liked (sort of between medium/dark blue with
silver metallic).

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 11:14:14 -0400
Subject: RE: Deep GM Trivia

>       6. What was Ketterings worst engineering folly?

I'll guess the answer to this was the "copper-cooled" engine of around,
what, 1922 or so? Installed in Chevys (serves 'em right! ;-)  ) and used
 a system of air cooling via copper fins brazed to the engine. Didn't
work and they recalled most of them. I seem to remember reading that
most of the ones they recalled ended up being dumped into the middle of
Lake Erie or at least one of the Great Lakes!

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia,
Canada

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 11:17:45 -0400
Subject: Re: My 1972 olds cutlass "s"

Gang,

    I am confused a little about the build sheet I keep reading about.
Is it really a paper list tucked away in the car?  Would this paper
deteriorate over time?  Were would my sheet, if it still exists, be?

Chris Sparks
68 442

------------------------------

From: Jon442@aol.com
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 11:16:33 -0400
Subject: '72 front end stuff

I've seen some posts here about '70 thru '72 front end stuff, and I have
two NOS front fenders that will fit a '70 thru '72 Cutlass, along with
grilles and moldings for the '72 only. These will fit a Cutlass or H/O.
All is NOS and in the box. I'm asking $500 for all of it, and I want to
sell it all as a package. If you are interested, email me at
jon442@aol.com.

Thanks,

Jon Wessel

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 10:54:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Oil leak

>I had a 327 Chevy leak from the rocker arm covers, and it was finally
>cured with two gaskets under each cover.

Hallelujah! Someone who actually calls them rocker arm covers! I salute
you!  :-)

>The common places for anti-freeze to leak are headgaskets, cracked
heads & >blocks, bad hoses, loose hose clamps, leaking freeze plugs,
leaking heater >core, leaking water outlet gasket, a hole in the
radiator overflow tank and >a leaking radiator (many causes).

A tired water pump might be leaking from the weep hole only when under
pressure. Maybe look for some stains in that area?

For oil leaks, I'd certainly look real closely at the rocker arm covers,
especially in the hard-to-see areas like the rear corners. A small leak
back there can trickle down almost unnoticed to make a bigger mess below
when it hits the airstream.

And as far as that mysterious coolant loss, does this car have a
recovery tank? If not, the radiator level is going to be significantly
low compared to newer cars (well, those are supposed to be full to the
brim). Coolant pushed out through the overflow tube from just one very
hot session is not coming back, and eventually you open up the radiator
and notice how low it is. If there's no tank, how does the coolant level
compare to the markings stamped on the side of the radiator, and does it
actually keep going down?

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 11:30:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Compression ratio (was: '87 307 engine)

Hey Joe (Padavano),

>      And while I applaud your power craze, even I (who subscribe to
the "if >      some is good, more is better, and too much is just about
right" school >      of hot rodding) won't run more than 10:1 on the
street with today's >      gasoline.

What have they (oil companies) done with gas?  I get pinging a lot.  I
find the only way to cure pinging (w/o going through major engine
overhaul or trick gas) is to use octane booster (it seems to work for
me, or maybe I am being lulled into complacency (sp?)) and air filter
tricks to get more air in.

Oh well :-)

Chris Sparks
68 442

BTW:  Is it my imagination or are our 68 442 sleepers?  Most people
don't
      realize how fast these cars are and when I blast by them (as my
reaction
      time is not as fast as it used to be), the challengers are
stunned.  I
      like the fact too that my car is not overtly noisy (except when I
hit
      the pedal), like some bowtie's.  I can sneak up and pass 'em. ;-)

FYI:  The other day fellow coworkers saw me piddling around my car,
looking
      for that damn oil leak, and accused me of messing around with
someone
      else's car (Jokingly of course).  I told them that this is my baby
and
      they said "Oh look at the size of that engine, blah blah blah".  I
was
      a little dumbfounded but I guess people used to driving toys, etal
are
      not used to seeing such a manly car. ;-) (Sorry couldn't resist)
The
      odd question that was asked of me was "How fast can she go.  140
mph".
      I said no.  I have a 3 speed and a 400 cid.  Maybe 110 mph, not
140.
      Did some of the these early 442s go that fast?  Impressive if so.
I
      bet mine would go that fast if I had an OD.  Oh well....

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 11:28:50 -0400
Subject: RE: Deep GM Trivia AND classified searcher

>>snip...F-40 unit which was built in November, 1979 at the GM Electro-
>Motive Division plant in LaGrange, Illinois...Didn't see many option
codes >listed; probably it just comes with a bench seat, radio and
heater.  :-) > >This would make it a business coupe, right?

*BIG laffs*  :-)  Yes, it's a 2-door with no back seat.

This is getting off the subject but you all might enjoy this:

These trains are run by Metra, a sort-of-acronym for Metropolitan Rail,
and every piece of rolling stock has (or used to say) "Metropolitan
Rail" on the side with stick-on reflective letters obviously stamped
out of a big decal (e.g. stick on entire sheet in one piece, then peel
off backing). So anyway, I commute every day and would stare at these
huge logos next to the train doors each morning, and some were slightly
different from the others. After I'd seen six different trains with the
same little, um, variation, I finally wrote Metra a letter asking
whether I was the only one in Chicago to point out that their little
slogan is not supposed to be spelled "Metropoliton" in big letters on
the side of a passenger train. It took two letters and a tongue-in-cheek
threat to tell the local papers before getting a nice response saying,
"Oh, gee, there was a problem with one of our suppliers, and we're
rectifying the problem with our train cars." (No mention of "None of our
employees can spell." :-) All six affected train cars abruptly vanished
for a short while and some have since been repainted, but if the light's
right on the others, you can still the shadows of the old lettering they
scraped off the side.

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 11:41:52 -0400
Subject: Re: window seals

On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, Spud wrote:
> The seal was a stiff rope of material that reminded me of tar with
> lots of solids in it.  It came in a coil, with a strip of paper
> interleaved between adjacent bits of the seal.  The stuff was about
> the color and shape of a black licorice rope.

This is great stuff to have around for general use. You can build up
under old weatherstripping for a tighter fit, stop small leaks, seal
seams, fix those annoying metal-to-whatever buzzes or rattles... the
next best thing to duct tape!

I used it to seal the holes in the firewall (remember those? The
factory-drilled holes to nowhere?) on my '68...


Greg Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia,
Canada

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 11:33:41 -0400
Subject: Re: My 1972 olds cutlass "s"

>I am confused a little about the build sheet I keep reading about.  Is
it >really a paper list tucked away in the car?

Commonly, yes. As someone else has said, it might also be a computer
punchcard.

>Would this paper deteriorate over time?

Not if it's high and dry, no. Look at all the other papers you
accumulate in your car -- old receipts under the seat, etc. This is just
another one, though maybe a bit better hidden.

>Where would my sheet, if it still exists, be?

Quite a few possible places. Just as another data point -- probably not
likely to work for your particular car -- last weekend I turned up the
build sheet for a 1987 Pontiac Sunbird built at the Lordstown, Ohio
plant; they'd put it inside the driver's door.

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 11:48:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Compression ratio (was: '87 307 engine)

Thanks Jeff for the information on compression

Chris Sparks
68 442

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 11:51:36 -0400
Subject: Re: '68 Vacuum Tank Needed

Greg Beaulieu wrote:

> Anyone got one of these? The kind that looks like a couple of black
hockey > pucks glued together? I have scored an original vacuum trunk
release for > my '68 and need the tank if I want it to work. I know I
can buy a new one

Did 68's come with a trunk release?  Cool....  If I were to put
something like that on my car, what would I need?

Chris Sparks
68 442

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 11:51:59 -0400
Subject: Brothers Automotive Web Site

Although I have heard of some less-than-impressed customers,
nevertheless Brothers Automotive now has a web site that includes their
catalog and prices.

http://www.thehost.com/brothers

No endorsement implied either way, just FYI.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia,
Canada

------------------------------

From: Daniel Houlton <tc75918@hpr169.mdhc.mdc.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 12:07:42 -0400
Subject: Re: ID Question

Dana and Mary Taylor wrote:
>
> > Sorry, no. The cars were originally shipped with thickly padded
> > protective bags you were supposed to store the T-tops in in the
> > trunk. Mine were missing, and despite a photo of the covers in the
> > owners manual (I think that's where I saw it), the dealer couldn't
> > find any trace of them in his parts manual or accessory catalog.
> > If you find the bags somewhere, grab them!
> > Thanks Andrew. Maybe a fellow could make some out of the blanket
that > movers use to protect furnature?? >


I solved this one several years ago shortly after getting my '85
Salon and was getting tired of not having any place to store my tops.

I made a frame out of 2x4s in my trunk that the tops slide into.
Haven't used it in a couple years so I'm going from memory, but it's
basically a retangular frame made from 2x4s big enough to fit the
tops inside the frame.  Used some smaller pieces (.5"x.5" or so) to
make two tracks on the inside of the frame for the tops to slide in
on.  The tops go in one above the other.  Since the latch side of the
tops are narrower than the other side, another 2x4 block about 6"
long is used to fill the gap and provide support for the top.  Holes
in both sides of the frame match up with the pins in the tops to lock
them in place.

Procedure is to put the top one in first and rotate the handle up to
lock it in place.  Then the bottom one.  They sit about half to 1"
apart so you have to take the bottom one out first cause you can't
rotate the handle of the top one to pull it out (the bottom one's in
the way).

I mounted the rack in the trunk.  The front sits on the little ledge
behind the rear seat.  It's attached to the left side and along the
back of the rear seat.  There's about an 8"-10" gap on the right side.
The back is propped up with legs on each side that sit in the lower
part of the trunk so the rack's a few inches higher in back than in
the front.

Very handy and secure.  An idea for the next generation would be to
design it so that it could fold up when not in use.  Maybe make it
out of something other than wood.  Maybe aluminum with padded rests?
Being AL, you could bend it to more closely fit the curve of the
top than you could with wood.


- --Dan

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 12:29:03 -0400
Subject: Re: '72 front end stuff

Sorry for my ignorance but what in the heck is NOS?

Chris Sparks
68 442

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 12:40:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Oil leak

Andrew C. Green wrote:

> And as far as that mysterious coolant loss, does this car have a
recovery > tank? If not, the radiator level is going to be significantly
low compared > to newer cars (well, those are supposed to be full to the
brim). Coolant > pushed out through the overflow tube from just one very
hot session is not > coming back, and eventually you open up the
radiator and notice how low it > is. If there's no tank, how does the
coolant level compare to the markings > stamped on the side of the
radiator, and does it actually keep going down?

Well I had a recovery tank put into my 68.  It originally didn't come
with one. Where are these marks you speak of?

Chris Sparks
68 442

------------------------------

From: "Mark Cornea (R)" <mcornea@ford.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 12:43:02 -0400
Subject: Re: '72 front end stuff

NOS = New Old Stock

cooler ta cruise,                                _   _
                                                 _| | |
       Mark Cornea (Dr Decal) `70 442 stick \/\/ _| |_| red

             (MCORNEA@pt8228.pto.ford.com)

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 12:51:15 -0400
Subject: Re: '72 front end stuff

Dr Decal wrote:

> NOS = New Old Stock

cool....

Chris Sparks :-))

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 12:47:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Oil leak

>Well I had a recovery tank put into my 68. It originally didn't come
>with one. Where are these marks you speak of?

On cars using an overflow hose (to the ground) instead of a coolant
recovery ("surge") tank, filling the radiator to the brim would simply
make it overflow when the coolant expanded with heat the first time.
As it cooled, the cap would allow air in to take its place, so you'd
have a certain amount of air space in there whenever the system was
cold. The normal amount of air space at the top of the radiator is
usually stamped (well, in raised letters) on one or two of the ribs of
the side tank, usually whichever end is just below the radiator cap. My
'72 is long gone so I forget what it actually said; probably something
like "FULL -->" or "LEVEL -->" or that sort of thing.

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: ndg@traverse.com (Nielsen Design Group)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 13:02:00 -0400
Subject: Dell's Guide Matic

>> "And the low beams!" I added. Dell's low beams aren't working right
at the >>  moment... I'm afraid to mess around with it too much and farg
up the rare >>  Guide Matic circuit. Ideas, anyone? >> > >I could use
some more information here.  You have high beam lights (all four) >all
the time, even during the day time? Or neither one of the low beam
>lights light up, high beams only?

Hi Paul,

Well, the low beams (outers only) weren't working, but the high beams
(all four) were. So, in order to drive Dell at night I craftily
unplugged the outers and aimed the inners down so as not to blind
oncoming traffic. So I'm driving around at night with just the inner
high beams lit up. And no, the high beams aren't on in the daytime.

>If you turn the GuideMatic knob all the
>way counterclockwise, that should turn them "off".  What happens when
you hit >the dimmer switch?

Well what do you mean by off? Turning the Guide Matic knob all the way
counterclockwise = manual control. Then the dimmer switch does the
switching. As you turn the knob clockwise it will eventually switch from
hi to lo.

>And one more question.  You have the "eye" mounted on the
>driver's side fender, right?  Is it painted body color, or is it chrome
>(actually shiney aluminum)?

Yep, driver's side fender, in beautiful chrome with a weird amber lens.

I have an original GuideMatic knob instruction
>tag somewhere out in the garage with the NOS unit for my '67.  I'll
have to >dig it out and post it.

Yeah, Dell has the original Guide Matic hang tag in her glovebox.
Check the Owner's Registry in Bryce's website soon to see this and the
rest of Dell!

- -Darren Shroeger
 Teal Blue 68 442 4 spd; Juneau Gray 68 Delmont

Nielsen Design Group
114 East Front Street
Traverse City, Michigan 49684
t:616.946.0925
f:616.946.2363
e:ndg@traverse.com

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 13:12:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Oil leak

Andrew C. Green wrote:

> On cars using an overflow hose (to the ground) instead of a coolant
> recovery ("surge") tank, filling the radiator to the brim would simply
> make it overflow when the coolant expanded with heat the first time.
> As it cooled, the cap would allow air in to take its place, so you'd
have > a certain amount of air space in there whenever the system was
cold. The

Makes sense.

> normal amount of air space at the top of the radiator is usually
stamped > (well, in raised letters) on one or two of the ribs of the
side tank, > usually whichever end is just below the radiator cap. My
'72 is long gone > so I forget what it actually said; probably something
like "FULL -->" or

I'll check.

> "LEVEL -->" or that sort of thing.

Thanks

Chris Sparks
68 442

------------------------------

From: Christian Fair <cfair@fairisaac.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 23:16:55 -0400
Subject: Weird Oil Leaks

Y'all covered off all the weird places an Olds engine can leak oil
except the one I know about:

The fuel pump. If the gasket is worn, torn, abused or confused maybe
even - --- loosed-- you'll have a funky leak that acts like an oil pan
gasket leak but ain't

Just another story from the Oldsmotrenches...
Chris Fair

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 13:19:44 -0400
Subject: Any experiences?

Sorry, this is not Olds related, except for my sig.

Anyone in the Chicago area have any experiences with any of the Al
Piemonte dealerships (sales or service)?  Specifically the Dundee, IL
store?

I'd like a Bravada, but it is a little small.  Based on the S-10
truck/Blazer chassis and all.  So I'm looking at a '94 D*dge Dakota 4x4
V-8 extended cab.  Put a nice cap w/seal on there and I've got my SUV.
Figure it would be a nice Olds parts hauler.

David Brown   Mailto:dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu
Olds FAQ 2.0 at: http://www.en.com/users/thall/
                 ftp://arl.arizona.edu/lists/olds

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 13:07:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Dell's Guide Matic

>Well, the low beams (outers only) weren't working, but the high beams
(all >four) were. So, in order to drive Dell at night I craftily
unplugged the >outers and aimed the inners down so as not to blind
oncoming traffic. So >I'm driving around at night with just the inner
high beams lit up. And no, >the high beams aren't on in the daytime.

Can I ask the obvious question? The problem isn't simply that the low
beams are burned out, is it?

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 13:26:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Weird Oil Leaks

Chris Fair wrote:

> Y'all covered off all the weird places an Olds engine can leak oil
except > the one I know about: > > The fuel pump. If the gasket is
worn, torn, abused or confused maybe even > --- loosed-- you'll have a
funky leak that acts like an oil pan gasket leak > but ain't > > Just
another story from the Oldsmotrenches...

Bingo!  I think you are right on this one.

Chris Sparks
68 442

------------------------------

From: ndg@traverse.com (Nielsen Design Group)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 13:23:00 -0400
Subject: Ertl Diecast 69 H/O and W30

>Hello all-
>Just cruising through... read the digests when I have some time (and a
>computer).
>Saw a thread about the new, soon-to-be-released die cast '69 H/O and
442 >models.  Anyone know when, where and how much - who do I send my
name to?? >Thanks, >Frank Iezzi >email to fiezzi@freenet.columbus.oh.us

Frank,

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned here yet, but Toys R Us
is where I scored one of each: a black 69 W30 and a 69 H/O.

They're quite decent; the W30 has the under-bumper scoops, bronze
block, and correct aircleaner. The H/O even has the gold stripe on the
seats! The scale of things like the W30 air snorkel hose looks a bit
off, but waddya want for $19.99?

- -Darren Shroeger
 Teal Blue 68 442 4 spd; Juneau Gray 68 Delmont

Nielsen Design Group
114 East Front Street
Traverse City, Michigan 49684
t:616.946.0925
f:616.946.2363
e:ndg@traverse.com

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 13:40:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Ertl Diecast 69 H/O and W30

Darren Shroeger wrote:

> I'm not sure if this has been mentioned here yet, but Toys R Us
> is where I scored one of each: a black 69 W30 and a 69 H/O.
>
> They're quite decent; the W30 has the under-bumper scoops, bronze
> block, and correct aircleaner. The H/O even has the gold stripe on the
> seats! The scale of things like the W30 air snorkel hose looks a bit
off, > but waddya want for $19.99?

I have a deal available to me to purchanse Mattel toys at a discounted
rate. Are these toys Mattel products?  If not then who makes them?

Chris Sparks
68 442

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 13:39:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Deep GM Trivia AND classified searcher

At 10:29 AM 11/8/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>wizkid sez:
>
>> As for the year, 1939 isn't even close.  New clue and one of the
answers, it >> was called Pearlescent. >> >> Cliff Feiler >> 1931
Patrician Oldsmobile >> 1931 4-dr Oldsmobile >       ^^^^ >Err, 4-dr
what? :) > >> 1984 Delta 88 >> >> >> > > > And GM's first metallic
paint was sold applied to the 1932 Chevrolet.

CRF

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 13:45:28 -0400
Subject: Canadian Olds Stuff FS (long!)

Here are some of the more interesting adverts from the Olds Club of
Canada newsletter. Most of this stuff is in Ontario. Prices are in Cdn
$; those of you in the USA take about 30% off these for your (bargain)
price.

1966-67 Cutlass hood, perfect, butternut yellow, $250
1968 Cutlass bucket seats, $75
Frank, 905-692-9222 or 692-3546

1978-79-80 Cutlass door, passenger side, c/w glass and window winder,
$75 Brian, 519-252-4027

1969 Cutlass parts to sell: good tires and rims, 442 motor not in the
best of shape, lots of chrome, rear bumper, hood, doors, steering wheel,
 new transmission, air shocks, lots of other parts Gail, 519-438-6001
or 439-5140

1966 Toro, parting out
Danny, 905-567-9470

1981-85 Olds full size 2 doors, rust free, $250 ea/$450 pr.
(I'm not sure if these are 2-door doors or 2 4-door... well, you get the
 picture) 519-582-4998

1973 Olds 350 Rocket motor & transmission, carb, etc, $125
905-575-6554

1981-87 Cutlass rust-free doors $500/pr., hoods/lids $150 ea.
519-582-4998

1966 Cutlass 2 hubcaps with spinners, $40 905-548-0640

1968 Cutlass parts, various pieces and prices 905-938-2283

1976 Olds 88/98 grills, park lights, tail lights, rear drums
519-271-6598

1970 Cutlass Supreme doors $195/pr. 905-858-7781

1967 4-4-2 hood, louvered, $400 519-786-2198

1969 Toro parts car 416-699-9230

1973 Olds 455 + auto trans 416-636-4585

1968-70 12-bolt posi Cutlass rear, hoods, black dashes, console c/w
floor shift and cable 905-508-5599

1969 Cutlass trunk lid, passenger door, clock, shift column, 442
steering wheel, rad support 905-508-5599

1978-80 Cutlass aluminum hood (?) $150 519-753-5215

Olds 455 out of '70 4-4-2, apart for inspection, E heads $650
905-561-6318

1980-86 Cutlass posi 416-698-5914

1954-56 324 Rocket V-8, has 4 speed Hydramatic $725  519-650-0358

Don't mail me about these things please, call the people direct. :)


Greg Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia,
Canada

------------------------------

From: Christian Fair <cfair@fairisaac.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 12:58:27 -0400
Subject: Remote Trunk Release

This was a moderately rare option on the big olds, don't know about the
a bodies. From probably 62 or 63 on, in the big cars there was a plastic
vacuum switch covered by a chrome bezel in glove box. The switch has two
connections:1) the vacuum input line coming from a vacuum reserior on
the engine side of the firewall. 2) Vacuum output line running to the
remote lock opening device attached to the trunk lock. Push the button,
vaccum is supplied to the trunk vacuum diaphragm, presto open trunk.

There are 2 styles of vacuum resevoirs that I've seen: plastic spheres
and metal ones that look like look like small coffee cans. On 66 and 67
Toros they have big coffee can looking things in the fenders to raise
those hidden headlights. All reservoirs have two vacuum connections on
from the engine, one to whatever vacuum system the reservoir is
supplying. Bigger ones are quite common on mid 60's Cadillacs. They're a
great source for PDL vacuum lines and switches too!

Vacuum was used until about 68 or 70 for remote trunk releases, and
power door locks. After that Olds, switched to electrically operated
solenoids, probly because that vacuum stuff needs attention from time to
time it leaks vacuum.

The trunk release is a simple affair, but door locks are color coded and
about as complex as wiring diagrams. I've pulled these from junkyard
cars and had great success with them as a cool option. You don't need
it, but the Fisher Body manual is helpful with the what-line-goes-where
problem.

Hope this helps, if anyone needs more info, let me know. I've done these
things a few times on my 98 Conv. (Now with power door locks!) cf

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 14:03:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Oil leak

At 11:03 AM 11/8/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Cliff Feiler wrote:
>
>> You can leak oil from the entire engine.  Common places are
cranklshaft >> seals, oil pan gasket, valve cover gasket, intake valley
cover gasket, head >> gaskets, leaking core support holes (often called
freeze plug holes), cast >> iron can leak right thru the side wall.
Cures, new seals for leaky seals, >> new gaskets for leaky gaskets, new
freeze plugs in to replace those in the >> oil routes, whenever you tear
down an engine, paint the inside of the block >> with electric motor
insulating paint (a strange orangish color); it will >> often cure weep
holes in the block. (Do the same to cast iron transmission >> cases).
And you will be amazed at how long the engine oil remains clean.  I >>
had a 327 Chevy leak from the rocker arm covers, and it was finally
cured >> with two gaskets under each cover. >> >> The common places for
anti-freeze to leak are headgaskets, cracked heads & >> blocks, bad
hoses, loose hose clamps, leaking freeze plugs, leaking heater >> core,
leaking water outlet gasket, a hole in the radiator overflow tank and >>
a leaking radiator (many causes). >> >> It is unlikely that in proper
tune, a '68 would run hotter than a '77.  The >> thermostat
setting/water system pressure was surely higher in a '77 than a >> '68;
therein the '77 was intended to run rather hotter than the '68. >> With
something out of wack, the anything is possible. >> >> I hope this
helps. > >Well your response was quite helpful!  Thank you verrrry much.
When I >brought the car back yesterday, the mechanic told me that oil
can leak from >the fuel pump.  Well I was suspicious of this until he
explained to me that >the fuel pump work of the oil flow in the engine
to pump fuel into the system. >Seemed strange since I always thought the
fuel pump would be near the carb. >In retrospect it might make sense
with a previous problem I thought I had with >my transmission.
Sometimes when I drove, I would notice that as I >accelerated at a
normal pace (not flooring it) onto a freeway I would >experience a
sensation that the car would be powerless.  I would let off on >the gas
and the power would come back.  Weird!!!  Well this same anomaly >(I
watch too much Star Trek) appeared yesterday as I got on the freeway to
>go to my mechanic.  That same void in power.  I have had the down shift
switch >in the tranny replaced so I really don't know what causes this
strange >behavior.  Does anyone have any other clues? > >Chris Sparks
>68 442 > > > I'll assume your talking about your '68 Olds 442, and I
would expect that a car of this vintage would still be using a carb,
probably a Q'jet!  Lucky for you there are only several dozen reasons
that can cause power drop off at the start of acceleration.  Here are
some common ones, and there are plenty more.  1. The fuel filter element
in the carb is partially stopped. This will allow the engine to run
properly under normal steady and normal low speed operation.  With the
blockage the increase fuel requirment,during acceleration, is not met,
and the engine starves.  If there is an add on inline fuel filter same
glitch.  2. The accelerator pump is not working properly.  It's purpose
is to add an small but incremental fuel quantity boost at the start of
acceleration.  3. There is also the posibility that you have an ignition
timing glitch.

I should have though of the fuel pump, as that is another good place to
find an oil leak.  On the Oldsmobiles I'm familiar with; the oil pump is
driven off a cam that is bolted to the end of the camshaft.  It is held
to the cam with the same bolt that holds the timing gear on.  The pump
is therefore placed in an opening in the timing chain housing.  It is
usually on the right side, close to the bottom of the engine; and is not
really very close to the carb.  It has a long arm that rides on the cam
at the front of the engine.

There is another remote possibility for the acceleration problem, if
your car is equipped with a turbo-hydramatic of the same vintage as your
442. There is a modulator valve that controls the shifting.  I havn't
had and old T-H for a long time, but I do remember having interesting
complications when this unit was on the fritz.  Just a thought.  What
does you wrench think is the problem?

When I was about 14 my father bought a 1930 Chevrolet in rather
dilapidated condition.  He worked for an auto engine rebuilder, and took
the engine and had it done.  I had to dismantle the entire car, fix or
replace the problems, and put it back together.  I drove that car for a
number of years before I had a more modern car.  It was a good learing
experience, but nearly worthless in this day of computer proportioned
fuel delivery, totally electronic ingnition and all the other wizardry.
If you did that today, with a modern car instead of one of the likes of
a '30, I expect It wouldn't be possible, save for the few really adept
computer nerds, with good mechnical sense!

Cliff Feiler
1931 Olds Patrician
1931 Olds 4-door
1984 Olds Delta 88

------------------------------

From: kissrulz@gnn.com (Craig Dobbins)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 09:14:55 -0400
Subject: Re: BRAND NEW '70 - '72 BODY PANELS

No Way!,
  I just called yesterday and the guy told me Oldsmobile '70-'72
quarters.  I swear to God!  Try again  please, I'm not a liar.

Craig.


>Date:		Thu, 7 Nov 1996 15:15:48 -0400
>From:	bryceman@442.com (Bryceman)
>Sender:	oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca
>To:	oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
>Subject:	Re: BRAND NEW '70 - '72 BODY PANELS
>
>>  I recieved this notice from someone on our page and thought I
>>would highlight it.  Eventhough I own a '68 442 Convertable (and
>>wish to God that someone would pull out the stamping dies for my
>>Q-panels), there IS a place in Detroit who are licensed by GM to
>>stamp FULL (not skins) real quarter panels (and I think fender
and
>>doors too) for '70 - '72 Cutlass/442's.  I'm sure this is
>>INCREDIBLE news for all of the owners of the vehicles of these
>>years.  I wish you all good luck -- they're name is New Center
>>Stamping (Detroit, MI) and they're phone # is 810-239-9510.
>
>I just called 'em. They said they were only doing rear quarters
for 70-72
>Ch*velle. Bummer, but thanks for the lead. I am more than happy to
follow
>up ANY lead like this I get.
>
>           Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Oldsmobiles
>'66 Dynamic 88 B07 Apprehender  '65 442   '72 Cutlass Convertible
>            Email: bryceman@442.com  URL: www.442.com
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: John Wilentz <buggin@camelot.bradley.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 14:17:23 -0400
Subject: A/C and Heat in 84 Delta 88

In my 1984 Delta 88 the air conditioning compressor was removed.
The car is the royale Deluxe ? edition and has the temperature
controlled type climate control system, where you just put the lever on
the temperature you want the inside of the car to be and it takes care
of the rest. Well ever since disconnecting the AC,removing the
compressor and, well, leaving the wires to it hanging, the heat has
stopped working as well.  If you turn it on all it does is blow outisde
air into the car.

I guess my question is this.  Is the climate control system looking
for the air compressor before anything else?  And if so,
is it failing to switch into heat because it cannot "find" the
compressor?

If this is the case can I install some type of resistored <sp> jumper
on the compressor wires to make it "see" a compressor there?

TIA

John

------------------------------

From: Dennis W Johnson <dwjohnso@sunbird.usd.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 14:20:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Oil leak

On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Chris Sparks wrote:
> Cliff Feiler wrote:
>
>> You can leak oil from the entire engine.  Common places are...snip...

>>   ...whenever you tear down an engine, paint the inside of the block
>> with electric motor insulating paint (a strange orangish color); it
>> will often cure weep holes in the block. (Do the same to cast iron
>> transmission cases). And you will be amazed at how long the engine
>> oil remains clean.

If this is the same stuff I am thinking of it is called Glyptol.  Paint
the lifter valley also and oil will run back to the pan better.  Stuff
is toxic though, but then, what isn't.
dj

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 14:20:48 -0400
Subject: RE: Deep GM Trivia

At 11:14 AM 11/8/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>       6. What was Ketterings worst engineering folly?
>
>I'll guess the answer to this was the "copper-cooled" engine of around,
 >what, 1922 or so? Installed in Chevys (serves 'em right! ;-)  ) and
used >a system of air cooling via copper fins brazed to the engine.
Didn't work >and they recalled most of them. I seem to remember reading
that most of >the ones they recalled ended up being dumped into the
middle of Lake Erie >or at least one of the Great Lakes! > >Greg
Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada > > > 
> >
Very good.  Yes it was the 1923 Chevrolet "Copper-Cooled."  However,
before you get to far into the serves 'em right, Oldsmobile was slated
to get it too.  It was a Kettering mandate, not a Chevrolet
consideration.  Old's 6 cylinder didn't run any better than the Chevy,
and Chevy was able to stop production early, I think with something like
2500 units; and Olds was able to duck, albeit at the last minute.  I
seem to remember the one that is at the GM museum was the one bought by
Franklin (all of their cars were air cooled) and used for testing, and
Chevrolet couldn't get it back. Apparently Chevrolet destroyed the bulk
of them, as very few others, if any, survive today.

Kettering was a "REAL POWER" power at GM, and could probably had
mandated toasters and microwave ovens be installed in every car. There
were a number of clever engineering and production miracles in that
engine; but it just didn't work.  The major problem was the route of
cooling airflow, it was backwards; and a flop.

Cliff Feiler
1931 Olds Patrician
1931 Olds 4-door
1984 Olds Delta 88

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 14:27:27 -0400
Subject: Re: '72 front end stuff

At 12:29 PM 11/8/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Sorry for my ignorance but what in the heck is NOS?
>
>Chris Sparks
>68 442
>
>
>
New Old Stock, which implies that it was made by the OEM (Original
Equipment Manufaturer) and is a direct replacment part.

There is also NORS, New Old Replacment Stock, meaning it was
manufactured by an aftermarker concern, ie, MOOG under car parts.  If
you replaced a OEM tie rod with a MOOG replacement it would be NORS.

Cliff Feiler

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 14:30:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Oil leak

Cliff Feiler wrote:

> I'll assume your talking about your '68 Olds 442, and I would expect
that a

Yup!

> car of this vintage would still be using a carb, probably a Q'jet!
Lucky

Yup!

> for you there are only several dozen reasons that can cause power drop
off > at the start of acceleration.  Here are some common ones, and
there are > plenty more.  1. The fuel filter element in the carb is
partially stopped. > This will allow the engine to run properly under
normal steady and normal > low speed operation.  With the blockage the
increase fuel requirment,during > acceleration, is not met, and the
engine starves.  If there is an add on > inline fuel filter same glitch.
2. The accelerator pump is not working > properly.  It's purpose is to
add an small but incremental fuel quantity > boost at the start of
acceleration.  3. There is also the posibility that > you have an
ignition timing glitch. > > I should have though of the fuel pump, as
that is another good place to find > an oil leak.  On the Oldsmobiles
I'm familiar with; the oil pump is driven > off a cam that is bolted to
the end of the camshaft.  It is held to the cam > with the same bolt
that holds the timing gear on.  The pump is therefore > placed in an
opening in the timing chain housing.  It is usually on the > right side,
close to the bottom of the engine; and is not really very close > to the
carb.  It has a long arm that rides on the cam at the front of the >
engine. > > There is another remote possibility for the acceleration
problem, if your > car is equipped with a turbo-hydramatic of the same
vintage as your 442. > There is a modulator valve that controls the
shifting.  I havn't had and old > T-H for a long time, but I do remember
having interesting complications when > this unit was on the fritz.
Just a thought.  What does you wrench think is > the problem?

My regular mechanic thinks the fuel pump is a logical source.  I will be
calling the other mechanic, who is doing the work, and ask him then.

Thanks

Chris Sparks

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 15:11:12 -0400
Subject: Re[2]: Oil leak

Thanks for the info.  This sounds like the thing to do.  But wouldn't
there be a problem with this stuff peeling off and clogging the oil
passages? Cast iron is somewhat porous, and therefore would retain
some oil every after a thorough cleaning.  This oil film would allow
the coating to lift and come off.

PAW advertises that there blocks are painted inside (including cooling
passages) with Rust Oleum.  Am I overly concerned here?  Will today's
modern engine shop cleaning machines do a good enough job?  Has anyone
tore down a block that was treated like this?

David Brown   Mailto:dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu
Olds FAQ 2.0 at: http://www.en.com/users/thall/
                 ftp://arl.arizona.edu/lists/olds

- --------
On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Chris Sparks wrote:
> Cliff Feiler wrote:
>
>> You can leak oil from the entire engine.  Common places are...snip...

>>   ...whenever you tear down an engine, paint the inside of the block
>> with electric motor insulating paint (a strange orangish color); it
>> will often cure weep holes in the block. (Do the same to cast iron
>> transmission cases). And you will be amazed at how long the engine
>> oil remains clean.

If this is the same stuff I am thinking of it is called Glyptol.  Paint
the lifter valley also and oil will run back to the pan better.  Stuff
is toxic though, but then, what isn't.
dj

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 15:37:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Oil leak

At 03:11 PM 11/8/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Thanks for the info.  This sounds like the thing to do.  But wouldn't
there >be a problem with this stuff peeling off and clogging the oil
passages? >Cast iron is somewhat porous, and therefore would retain
some oil every >after a thorough cleaning.  This oil film would allow
the coating to lift >and come off. > >PAW advertises that there blocks
are painted inside (including cooling >passages) with Rust Oleum.  Am I
overly concerned here?  Will today's >modern engine shop cleaning
machines do a good enough job?  Has anyone tore >down a block that was
treated like this? > >David Brown   Mailto:dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu
>Olds FAQ 2.0 at: http://www.en.com/users/thall/ >
ftp://arl.arizona.edu/lists/olds > >-------- >On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Chris
Sparks wrote: >> Cliff Feiler wrote: >> >>> You can leak oil from the
entire engine.  Common places are...snip... > >>>   ...whenever you tear
down an engine, paint the inside of the block >>> with electric motor
insulating paint (a strange orangish color); it >>> will often cure weep
holes in the block. (Do the same to cast iron >>> transmission cases).
And you will be amazed at how long the engine >>> oil remains clean. >
>If this is the same stuff I am thinking of it is called Glyptol.  Paint
 >the lifter valley also and oil will run back to the pan better.
Stuff >is toxic though, but then, what isn't. >dj > > > > The paint I'm
speaking of is intended to insulate the windings inside an electric
motor.  I've seen and used several brands.  It is an undescribable
orangish color, when you see it you'll understand that.  It adheres
very, very well to clean cast iron.  It does not peel off in my
experience, and tends to keep the engine much cleaner inside than would
be the case in its absence.

It is high temperature stuff too, which I doubt can be claimed by
Rust-Oleum!  I was first introduced to it for he purpose of closing a
weephole in the side of the crankcase of a 1930 Buick Standard Six. One
of the local engine builders, that does excellent antique car work,
helped with the project.  I dismanteled the entire engine, except that I
did not take the cylinder block loose from the crankcase; and he hot
tanked it.  We painted the inside with this miracle, and the engine
weeped no more.  It is still running in fine fet, after nearly twenty
years of service.

The oil stays cleaner too.  And it works on tranny's too.  If I have an
engine down, it gets this treatment.  You will be amazed.  You should
paint the entire interior of the engine, save for where the bearings go.
It is a good idea to clean up oil holes after you're done, so that one
is not accidentally plugged.  On the exterior, paint anywhere it gets a
cover, such as the lifter gallery.  Always paint the exterior of an
engine too, use Olds blue on Oldsmobiles, Chevy Orange, on the proper
Chevy's etc.  They stay much cleaner, and look much more professional,
and are a lot easier to keep clean than bare cast iron.  And remember do
not paint any place a bearing goes, such as the lifter holes, the cam
bearing holes, mains etc.

Try it, you'll like it.

Cliff Feiler

------------------------------

From: bryceman@442.com (Bryceman)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 15:42:48 -0400
Subject: Re: '72 front end stuff

>I've seen some posts here about '70 thru '72 front end stuff, and I
have two >NOS front fenders that will fit a '70 thru '72 Cutlass, along
with grilles >and moldings for the '72 only. These will fit a Cutlass or
H/O. All is NOS >and in the box. I'm asking $500 for all of it, and I
want to sell it all as a >package. If you are interested, email me at
jon442@aol.com.

Jon, where are you located? I am interested. Are the grilles eggcrate
(Supreme) style or are they bar (Cutlass S) style? And, do you have
front and rear bumpers?

           Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Oldsmobiles
'66 Dynamic 88 B07 Apprehender  '65 442   '72 Cutlass Convertible
            Email: bryceman@442.com  URL: www.442.com

------------------------------

From: bryceman@442.com (Bryceman)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 15:50:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Qjet Rods& Jets

>Bryce, do you know of a dealer that stocks a large selection of qjet
parts? >Where do the rebuilders get their stuff?

The only place I have been able to find the rochester stuff is my local
Olds dealer. Someone else mentioned in another post that Edelbrock has
come up with their own version of the Q-Jet and jets and so-on could be
obtained from them.

           Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Oldsmobiles
'66 Dynamic 88 B07 Apprehender  '65 442   '72 Cutlass Convertible
            Email: bryceman@442.com  URL: www.442.com

------------------------------

From: Chris Sparks <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 15:55:05 -0400
Subject: Re: '72 front end stuff

Bryceman wrote:

> Jon, where are you located? I am interested. Are the grilles eggcrate
> (Supreme) style or are they bar (Cutlass S) style? And, do you have
front > and rear bumpers?

Is one style better than another.  Originally I had on my 68 442 a
damaged eggcrate grille, replaced it with the same.  WOuld the bar style
have been better looking, more sporty, you know....

Chris Sparks
68 442

------------------------------

From: Fernando Proietto <proietto@dow.on.doe.ca>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 04:58:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Found  '72 C/S- more info

Some more info on that '72 Cutlass Supreme. For shippig purposes I'm in
Toronto Ontario, Canada (about 30 minutes North suburbs). I've yet to
find out about the rear end however the car also has power disc brakes,
which is an added bonus. Also the car does not have a/c. For all of you
that have responded with part requests, I will keep you on file and when
the car becomes final I'll contact you with more info and possibly a
commitment.

Fernando

------------------------------

From: Jason Oness <onessjp@AXP.CALUMET.PURDUE.EDU>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 10:07:09 -0400
Subject: In-reply-to: <v01530506aea8fa1f95bd@[206.52.159.202]>

I have an 85 olds cutlass. The standard low output 307. I recently
purchased from a friend a '76 350 rocket big block. Since then I have
been told by many that it would be a waste of time to
rebuild it. They say that the horsepower output would not be enough to
warrant spending the $300 dollars on the rebuild kit, plus any extras.
(and there WILL be extras!!!) Is this true?


					Jason Oness
					Onessjp@vaxp.calumet.purdue.edu

------------------------------

From: "Jason Hairston" <jth442@flash.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 16:00:08 -0400
Subject: Re: My 1972 olds cutlass "s"

Last month I was replacing fuel lines to the gas tank.  When I dropped
the tank, I came across my build sheet!  Evidently, it has been there
for 20 years on top of the tank.  It was badly deteriorated, but I could
make out some of it.  It was practically falling apart in my hands so I
through it away. So keep looking.

Jason Hairston
77   442

- ----------
>
> Gang,
>
>     I am confused a little about the build sheet I keep reading about.
 Is it > really a paper list tucked away in the car?  Would this paper
deteriorate over > time?  Were would my sheet, if it still exists, be? >
 > Chris Sparks > 68 442

------------------------------

From: Dennis W Johnson <dwjohnso@sunbird.usd.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 16:08:03 -0400
Subject: RE: Deep GM Trivia

On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Greg Beaulieu wrote:

> >       6. What was Ketterings worst engineering folly?
>
> I'll guess the answer to this was the "copper-cooled" engine of
around, > around, what, 1922 or so? Installed in Chevys (serves 'em
right! ;-)  ) > and used a system of air cooling via copper fins brazed
to the engine. > Didn't work and they recalled most of them. I seem to
remember reading > that most of the ones they recalled ended up being
dumped into the middle > of Lake Erie or at least one of the Great
Lakes! > > Greg Beaulieu    ab348@chebucto.ns.ca    Halifax, Nova
Scotia, Canada

I believe you are correct (I guessed the hula hoop).  However, the idea
itself was not at fault, and indeed, it was used on the portable DELCO
power units, which was also Ketterings baby.  The first DELCO power
unit, BTW, went in Ma Kettering's house.  I believe that the power unit
preceded the car though by several years. There is a copper cooled
Chevrolet, a 490 coupe I believe, in the Henry Ford Museum. One of the
few left.  HF no doubt bought it to check it's viability. dj

------------------------------

From: "Chris R. Smetana" <Chris_R._Smetana@DADC.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 10:56:49 -0400
Subject: 69 W-31 tranny code

I have a 69 W-31 Cutlass and I was wondering what the correct code for
the transmission should be.  My says     69
                                         JO350
                                              D
My 442 and W machine restoration guide says that for 69's it should be
JL or JB?, no JO is listed, but for 70's it lists JO as the W-31
transmission code. Can I assume that I have the correct transmission?
Also, what do the 350 and D stand for and where would the serial number
be located?  Thank you in advance for any information you can provide
me.

Chris Smetana
Terre Haute, IN
1969 W-31 Cutlass
2 1966 GTO's - one is a parts car
1971 Skylark custom convertible - still for sale
1989 Mustang LX 5.0 hatchback

------------------------------

From: zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 15:21:22 -0400
Subject: Re: build sheets (was RE: My '72 Cutlass "s")

When did they (or did they ever) quit putting the build sheets in
Oldsmobiles?  Might I find one in a late 70's car?  How about early to
mid 80's cars?  Just wondering.  Wish I had known about these before I
sent my '74 Delta 88 off to the crusher, I would have kept it.  Also, if
 anybody out there, for some odd reason, needs a gas tank for a '74
Delta 88 (would probably fit other full size too), they are welcome to
it for free if they can find a way to get it.

Peace, Goodwill, and Happy Oldsmobilling,
Clayton Pierce,
zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu
'84 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme (350 4bbl. 66k miles)
'81 Oldsmobile Cutlass Calais (350 4bbl. ? miles) {parts car}
'80 Rover 3500 (215 EFI V8 85k miles)
'72 Mercury Marquis Brougham (429 4bbl. 110k miles)

------------------------------

From: Dennis Johnson <dwjohnso@sunbird.usd.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 16:58:32 -0400
Subject: RE: Deep GM Trivia

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBCD85.4FDDC8E0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



- ----------
From: 	Dennis W Johnson[SMTP:dwjohnso@sunbird.usd.edu]
Sent: 	Friday, November 08, 1996 2:08 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: 	RE: Deep GM Trivia

On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Greg Beaulieu wrote:

> >       6. What was Ketterings worst engineering folly?
>=20
> I'll guess the answer to this was the "copper-cooled" engine of =
around,=20
> around, what, 1922 or so? Installed in Chevys (serves 'em right! ;-)
= ) > and used a system of air cooling via copper fins brazed to the
engine. =

> Didn't work and they recalled most of them. I seem to remember reading
=

> that most of the ones they recalled ended up being dumped into the =
middle
> of Lake Erie or at least one of the Great Lakes!=20
>=20
> Greg Beaulieu    ab348@chebucto.ns.ca    Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

I believe you are correct (I guessed the hula hoop).  However, the idea
itself was not at fault, and indeed, it was used on the portable DELCO
power units, which was also Ketterings baby.  The first DELCO power =
unit,
BTW, went in Ma Kettering's house.  I believe that the power unit =
preceded
the car though by several years. =20
There is a copper cooled Chevrolet, a 490 coupe I believe, in the Henry
Ford Museum. One of the few left.  HF no doubt bought it to check it's
viability.
dj

Me again.  The copper fins are somewhat of a misnomer.  If I have it =
understood correctly, rather than a fin it is a corrugated copper sheet,
=

and the bottom of each corrugation is attached to the outside of the
cylinder wall.  The air was then pushed down, inside and outside,
what=20 are now tubes.   =20 dj

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------------------------------

From: "Edward O'Malley" <viperle@xnet.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 19:22:08 -0400
Subject: Re: My 1972 olds cutlass "s"

WMACHINES@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 96-11-07 17:18:35 EST, you write:
>
> << I am wondering if my car which is all original has a build sheet in
it >  and if it does where can I find it at.  Any help would be greatly >
appreciated. >> > > Depending where the car was built, the car will
either have a > computer card or a build sheet.  Here are some locations
of > the sheets I have found on some of my cars.  One is behind > the
back seat, on top of the gas tank, behind the cover on > bucket seats,
under the bench on front seats, and under the > carpet and under the
headliner.  These spots I have encountered > myself.  By the way 72's
rule.  Tell me more about your S car. > > W MACHINES (Mark Prince) >
(2) 72 442 W-30'sMy car is a 1972 Cutlass "s".  It has 88,000 original
miles on it.  I bought the car from the original owner about a year
ago.  It was keep in great shape and only used primarily from '72-'76
when the owner got married and got another car.  It was light metallic
green with a dark green top, but I had the top removed and got the
whole car painted black.
 It is a daily driver but is sitting in the garage for the winter time.
 I plan to keep the motor the way it is (all original) but sometime
down the road build a big block for it.  I pulled up the back seat last
night and the build sheet wasn't there.  Thanks for the ideas!

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 17:23:12 -0400
Subject: RE: Deep GM Trivia

>Me again.  The copper fins are somewhat of a misnomer.  If I have it
>understood correctly, rather than a fin it is a corrugated copper
sheet, >and the bottom of each corrugation is attached to the outside
of the >cylinder wall.  The air was then pushed down, inside and
outside, what >are now tubes.

I don't plan to spend too much time debating a design that was tossed
out half a century ago, but I don't understand the design theory here.
I mean, air is not a very good conductor of heat compared to liquid;
unless you have some really big fins on the engine, how do you hope to
dissipate all the heat? I suppose maybe there's some sort of equation
where you plug in the amount of surface area to be cooled, type of
material conducting the heat, how much heat to blow off, temperature
of incoming air, etc., but it seems like you'd be fighting a losing
battle most of the time.

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: "Michael Calvo" <mcalvo@hologic.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 17:50:47 -0400
Subject: Fuel Gauge


     Help! I filled my tank and now the gauge is stuck at full. A friend

     tested the gauge and said it was the sending unit. Does anyone know
of
     someone who can rebuild these things? I know I can send it to Year
One
     but who do they send it to? (let's cut out the middle man ). Also
the
     car in question is a '70 442 W30 4spd would the sending unit from a

     '68 Cutlass Supreme be any different?

     -Michael Calvo
     mcalvo@hologic.com


------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 17:46:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Paint (Was: Oil leak)

On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Dennis W Johnson wrote:
> If this is the same stuff I am thinking of it is called Glyptol.
Paint > the lifter valley also and oil will run back to the pan better.
Stuff > is toxic though, but then, what isn't.

Glyptol is available from Eastwood's catalog and no doubt other places
too.

Speaking of paint, I have had great success with Krylon's "Dull
Aluminum" spray for restoring the argent silver paint GM used on
certain grilles, diecast trim, etc. Today I went looking for some with
no luck and was told by the gal who runs the paint department at the
place I used to buy it that it has been discontinued! She said that she
couldn't believe it because she could never keep it in stock since it
sold so well, and told the Krylon rep that they were nuts to
discontinue it.

So, if you encounter any of this in stock, buy a case or two of it and
I'll take some of it off your hands. Second, has anyone else found a
good non-shiny (matte) aluminum-silver metallic paint that might take
the place of this?

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia,
Canada

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 17:58:33 -0400
Subject: Re:

At 10:07 AM 11/8/96 -0400, you wrote:
>I have an 85 olds cutlass. The standard low output 307. I recently
>purchased from a friend a '76 350 rocket big block. Since then I have
>been told by many that it would be a waste of time to
>rebuild it. They say that the horsepower output would not be enough to
>warrant spending the $300 dollars on the rebuild kit, plus any extras.
>(and there WILL be extras!!!) Is this true?
>
>
>					Jason Oness
>					Onessjp@vaxp.calumet.purdue.edu
>
>
Jason,

You may get by using the entire 350 as is, at little extra cost.  But if
you rebuild then:  some of the things best added new/rebuilt (some items
are OK rebuilt, usually at less cost) to such a project are:

 1. Timing chain and gears
 2. Fuel pump
 3. Water pump
 4. Distributor, or at least cap, rotor, coil and wires
 5. Spark plugs
 6. Carburetor
 7. head job
 8. cranking motor
 9. Alternator
10. Belts and hoses
11. And the best for next.  I believe your car has a T-H 200
transmission. It was designed for the Chevette, at about 2000 pounds and
80 h.p., it is a pis... poor excuse for a tranmission with the 307, and
it doesn't get better with age or additional h.p. 13. And anything
else that I didn't think about, such as the next item which really
depends on the condition of the 350 block. 14. You may need pistons
depending on the condition of the bores. 15. Also much of the emissions
junk might need to be replaced.  It does add up.

Of course you can massage some of the parts you replace and get a few
additional h.p. without too much trouble.  The truth of the matter is,
if you do the work yourslf you are probably looking at close to a $1000.
bill for all of the parts you are going to need.

You are probably pushing that waste of time real hard...

I removed a 140 hp, 307 from my '84 Delta 88; and installed a fresh
built 455, and TH 350.  And I'm working on another 455 for my project
car, which is costing almost exactly the same.  The machine shop work,
new parts, and outside mechanical help cost just a shade under $2000.,
and I did the tear down, and build up myself.  I had good bores, and
only knurled the pistons. This figure allows nothing for my time, and
the cost of the core motor. Your 350 should cost sightly less, and if
you do the work, you should not get that close to $2000.  Thats still a
lot of money to put so little additional hp in your Cutlass, especially
if your 307 is a good runner.  I pull a trailer a lot with this car, and
the 307 just wasn't enough. Sometimes the 455 isn't either; but it seems
like twice the hp.

In the last few days I've seen the word heresy attributed to this
suggestion, but I think as far as a cost to performance aspects are
concerned it it hard to beat.  Chevrolet offers a version of their 350ci
engine at about $1000. brand new in the crate, hense the term crate
motor. They have other versions, including some hi performance, at
higher prices. It is very difficult to build a motor for much under this
price, even with a free core, and there are a lot fewer things that can
go wrong with a factory new motor than almost any rebuild.  I agree that
a first class automotive machine shop can beat the pants off a factory
new motor, the average guy cannot.  It is realitively a lot of value for
the $.  Also, if all of the automobile engines ever built were compared
on the basis of utility/$, life and grief an engine can give, the 350
c.i. version of the Bowtie s.b. is impossible to beat. And I mean
impossible.

My first new car was a 390h.p., 427c.i. Corvette.  So for me everything
else is down hill...

If I was looking to put some occasional go in my 307 I think I would
consider a nitrous boost.  It is relatively cost effective, and you
really get some bang for your $.  If the 307 is worn out, I would goto
the Chev 350 before I'd build the Olds.  However, I would look for a 455
or at least a 403, both good motors, and build it; instead of the 350.
With the 403 you get a 33% displacement boost, and the 455 gives a 50%
boost, both will be noticable when you are at the wheel.  If you built
the Olds 350 back to generally stock form, you really won't be much
impressed by the improvement; especially for what it costs.  Also it
probably costs 25% more to build the 403 or 455 than a 350, but well
worth the difference.  My current 455 project does exhibit some of the
problems associated with working up a 455. So far I've acquired 3
complete 455 engines, and 2 sans heads.  I've netted one good block from
the 5, no good heads, and one fair crankshaft, already 0.060 under.  So
I'm still looking for a pair of good heads and a closer to std. crank
for my project car motor.  There are still some good ones out there, but
they are becoming more difficult to find by the minute.

I'm sorry to be so windy, and have missed several bases, but I hope it
helps.

Yours,
Cliff Feiler
1984 Delta 88
1931 Oldsmobile Patrcian
1931 Oldsmobile 4-door

------------------------------

From: Scott R Clark <mickeyd@selway.umt.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 18:01:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Carburetor problems with our Ninety Eight -64

> This would be the old-style Rochester 4GC carb, not a Quadrajet. The
> symptoms you describe are not known to me with a Quadrajet - I'm very
> happy with mine. So I would recommend a Q-jet for the swap, except I
> wonder if your intake would permit a Q-jet to fit. Someone here will
be > able to answer that I'm sure. Since your car is running a 394 (I
assume) > getting a manifold may be a problem, but hopefully you won't
have to > worry about that. > > I think the Edelbrock carbs we hear
about are renamed Q-jets in any > event, either entirely new or rebuilt
using Edelbrock parts, not sure > which. Again, the experts here will
certainly help on this one. > 	 	Edelbrock carbs are actually
glorified Carter AFBs, and either one of thoes or a Holley will fit on a
stock 4GC manifold (either or, or both--forget which). Unfortunaly,
the394 pre-dates the Q-Jet so no stock manifold was ever made with a
spreadbore.  Anyway, there are other carbs that will replace a 4GC, but
unfortunatly a Q-Jet isn't one of them. 	 				Scott 
			1960 Oldsmobile
Rocket 98

------------------------------

From: Rick Kromeich <rickk@ecg.csg.mot.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 18:01:33 -0400
Subject: motor i.d.

Can any of you gurus decipher the following number that I was finally
able to obtain from the motor in my 72 Cutlass ragtop. The number on the
engine reads 38 120603. Does the eight mean it is out of a '68?, 78?, or
possibly '88. I know the engine has been replaced and I want to find if
it may be a better performance engine over the original (which I have).
Also there is a 5 on the heads by the numer 1 plug.  The number on top
of the timing chain reads 395558 2.  Any info regarding the
specs/performance of this engine compared to what should have originally
been in it would be much appreciated as this will be a big influence as
to whether I will leave it or spend the $$$ and rebuild the original to
put back in it.  The vin on my car is 3J67K2M121747. Please let me know
if these numbers mean sense, or if I should be looking elsewhere.

While I am occupying bandwidth and your attention I have a similiar
request for you gurus out there regarding Fisher body tags, i.e. Paul, I
think. Here is the info from the body tag:

ST72 34267LAN249049
TR 970  65 B
09D A65

I want to restore this beauty and am pretty sure it is near pretty
original so this should confirm that.  I am really looking forward to
coming into work on Monday to read the responses that you send.  Yes, I
know, I lead a pretty dull life.

Thanks guys and gals - Have a great weekend!
- -Rick

rickk@ecg.csg.mot.com

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@sequent1.providence.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 17:56:38 -0400
Subject: Re:

At 09:07 AM 11/8/96 -0500, you wrote:
>I have an 85 olds cutlass. The standard low output 307. I recently
>purchased from a friend a '76 350 rocket big block. Since then I have

Well, that's a small-block, not a big-block, so externally it is the
same as your 307 (i.e. direct swap).

>been told by many that it would be a waste of time to
>rebuild it. They say that the horsepower output would not be enough to
>warrant spending the $300 dollars on the rebuild kit, plus any extras.
>(and there WILL be extras!!!) Is this true?

???Who said that??? Do they know anything about cars??? Just to start,
the 350 has 40 more hp stock than your 307, and _lots_ more torque. A
basic performance rebuild would net you at least 250-300hp easily from a
350; the same mods to a 307 would give you about 200-235hp.

Go with the 350.

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Std. Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block
boys) - - 1978 Electra Limited Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 18:04:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Paint (Was: Oil leak)

>Speaking of paint, I have had great success with Krylon's "Dull
Aluminum" >spray for restoring the argent silver paint GM used on
certain grilles, >diecast trim, etc. Today I went looking for some with
no luck and was >told by the gal who runs the paint department at the
place I used to buy >it that it has been discontinued! [...] has anyone
else found a good >non-shiny (matte) aluminum-silver metallic paint
that might take the >place of this?

Dare I suggest Ford Argent lacquer, part number D7AZ 19000-A? Looks to
be the stuff used for their argent wheels, etc.

No, you're right, bad idea, sorry I mentioned it...   :-)

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 18:16:49 -0400
Subject: RE: Deep GM Trivia

At 04:08 PM 11/8/96 -0400, you wrote:
>On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Greg Beaulieu wrote:
>
>> >       6. What was Ketterings worst engineering folly?
>>
>> I'll guess the answer to this was the "copper-cooled" engine of
around, >> around, what, 1922 or so? Installed in Chevys (serves 'em
right! ;-)  ) >> and used a system of air cooling via copper fins brazed
to the engine. >> Didn't work and they recalled most of them. I seem to
remember reading >> that most of the ones they recalled ended up being
dumped into the middle >> of Lake Erie or at least one of the Great
Lakes! >> >> Greg Beaulieu    ab348@chebucto.ns.ca    Halifax, Nova
Scotia, Canada > >I believe you are correct (I guessed the hula hoop).
However, the idea >itself was not at fault, and indeed, it was used on
the portable DELCO >power units, which was also Ketterings baby.  The
first DELCO power unit, >BTW, went in Ma Kettering's house.  I believe
that the power unit preceded >the car though by several years. >There
is a copper cooled Chevrolet, a 490 coupe I believe, in the Henry >Ford
Museum. One of the few left.  HF no doubt bought it to check it's
>viability. >dj > > > > Is that car in the Ford museum?  I though it was
at GM!  Actually my confusion here is I think GM did the restoration,
and why I don't know. Regardless, it is in good hands.  Legend says that
that car came from Franklin, who bought it as an engineering study, and
wouldn't give it back. Of course ole Henry could ahve bought one too.
And I agree the idea was probably excellent, just poorly exectued.
There was an article about the '23 C.C. in "Special Interest Autos" a
few years ago.  I think they ran this car a little, and it did not do
well.  Also I believe that the copper cooling aspects of this motor were
indeed not the whole problem, but the rather the route of the cooling
air.  It went thru the car backwards of what should have been considered
optimum, thereby not providing sufficent cooling.

Also I'm fairly sure that the car in the museum/article was a sedan not
a coupe; and it definately was based on the 1923 Superior model, not the
490. 1922 was the last year for the 490; and the C.C. was a 1923.  In my
literature collection I have a sales brochure for the C.C..  It might be
interesting to speculate on what the automotive scene as we know it
today, may have been, had this car been successful!

Are there any other known survivors of the C.C..  Also, did any of the 6
cylinder Oldsmobile C.C.'s actually get built.  I just recieved a copy
of Early/Wakinshaw's (I hope I spelled your names correctly) history of
Olds in the mail, and am going to read that section tonight to see what
they say about it.

Yours,

Cliff Feiler
I currently have 3 Oldsmobiles
Actually 4, I just remembered a '79 Diesel in the barn.

------------------------------

From: ndg@traverse.com (Nielsen Design Group)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 18:29:00 -0400
Subject: 68 Olds Service Manual

So does anybody have a 68 Olds Service Manual they'll sell me?

With two 68s in the family, it's become a necessity!
A Fisher body manual, while not as critical, would also be beneficial.

I called Brothers and they said they had a 'Factory Assembly Manual'
which was a completely different book. This is what the factory
assemblyline workers supposedly used when building the cars. They said
it was never officially published by Olds, and is thusly printed poorly:
"Hey, somebody probably lost their job to sneak this thing out, it's a
bootleg!" claimed the cheery phone attendant at Brothers...

Anyone ever hear of such an animal? Worth having one?

- -Darren Shroeger
 Teal Blue 68 442 4 spd; Juneau Gray 68 Delmont

Nielsen Design Group
114 East Front Street
Traverse City, Michigan 49684
t:616.946.0925
f:616.946.2363
e:ndg@traverse.com

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 18:59:44 -0400
Subject: Re: 68 Olds Service Manual

Watch out for reproductions; always ask if it is such.  The repos are
pretty good, but the pictures are darker and grainy.

Yeah, what a stupid response.  Since it is a bootleg, I bet it is rare
too! I know I saw these advertised by Super Cars Unlimited or some
other national auto book mail order place.  I would have one along with
the chassis and body manual.

David Brown   Mailto:dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu
Olds FAQ 2.0 at: http://www.en.com/users/thall/
                 ftp://arl.arizona.edu/lists/olds

- -------------
<snip>
I called Brothers and they said they had a 'Factory Assembly Manual'
which was a completely different book. This is what the factory
assemblyline workers supposedly used when building the cars. They said
it was never officially published by Olds, and is thusly printed poorly:
"Hey, somebody probably lost their job to sneak this thing out, it's a
bootleg!" claimed the cheery phone attendant at Brothers...

Anyone ever hear of such an animal? Worth having one?

- -Darren Shroeger
 Teal Blue 68 442 4 spd; Juneau Gray 68 Delmont

Nielsen Design Group
114 East Front Street
Traverse City, Michigan 49684
t:616.946.0925
f:616.946.2363
e:ndg@traverse.com

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 18:55:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Paint (Was: Oil leak)

At 06:04 PM 11/8/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>Speaking of paint, I have had great success with Krylon's "Dull
Aluminum" >>spray for restoring the argent silver paint GM used on
certain grilles, >>diecast trim, etc. Today I went looking for some
with no luck and was >>told by the gal who runs the paint department at
the place I used to buy >>it that it has been discontinued! [...] has
anyone else found a good >>non-shiny (matte) aluminum-silver metallic
paint that might take the >>place of this? > >Dare I suggest Ford
Argent lacquer, part number D7AZ 19000-A? Looks to >be the stuff used
for their argent wheels, etc. > >No, you're right, bad idea, sorry I
mentioned it...   :-) > >Andrew C. Green                   (312)
853-8331 >Datalogics, Inc. >101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet:
acg@dlogics.com >Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282 > > > >
About a zillion light years ago (I know that a l.y. is a unit of
distance and not of time, but what the heck), the company I worked for
had a F... Econoline Van.  It had silver painted bumpers.  One day the
driver put his head thru the windshield, after striking a concrete post
in a parking lot. It required a new windshield, and a new ft bumper.
There was a paint code for the silver bumper paint and it was perfect.
And if you look at a painted F... van bumper, that color might be just
about right for painting a grill. The paint guys should be able to find
it.  I'm sure we got Dupont paint.

Also, are you ready for some more obscure GM trivia.  And then again, if
it isn't obscure, it isn't trivia!!!

For you silver paint lookers, here's a bit of good ole GM trivia:
Buick's silver anniversary year was 1929, and they produced what must
have been a silver anniversary model, as it was painted black over
silver, with vermillion in the reveals.  Wire wheels were painted argent
cream, and wood wheels were black.  What model was it?

Yours,

Cliff Feiler

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 18:44:53 -0400
Subject: Re: 68 Olds Service Manual

>I called Brothers and they said they had a 'Factory Assembly Manual'
which >was a completely different book. This is what the factory
assemblyline >workers supposedly used when building the cars. They said
it was never >officially published by Olds, and is thusly printed
poorly: "Hey, somebody >probably lost their job to sneak this thing out,
it's a bootleg!" claimed >the cheery phone attendant at Brothers... >
>Anyone ever hear of such an animal? Worth having one?

Having seen the 1967 GTO "Factory Assembly Manual" I'd say it depends on
how rabid a collector you are and/or how much level of detail you need.
What I saw was more a collection of documents than some sort of coherent
publication on How to Build a Goat. Your average assembly line worker
would not have been handed something like this for instructions; it'd
be more a case of the senior shift guy showing the new guy how to hold
the wrench, where the clips go, etc. No offense to the line workers;
I've Been There, Seen That...

It's not so much printed poorly as that the original masters might have
been photocopies, blueprints of varying quality, internal documents,
etc. In the printing process you can't always make a silk purse out of a
sow's ear. And a lot of the illustrations may also appear in the factory
service manual, where they're in context, are accompanied by text and
captions, and are arranged in some sort of logical order. The service
manual will tell you how to remove, rebuild and replace your engine; the
factory assembly manual won't.

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: Ryan Hehn <RYANH@docker.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 18:34:04 -0400
Subject: Re: build sheets (was RE: My '72 Cutlass "s")

zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu wrote:
>
> When did they (or did they ever) quit putting the build sheets in
> Oldsmobiles?  Might I find one in a late 70's car?  How about early to
> mid 80's cars?  Just wondering.  Wish I had known about these before I
> sent my '74 Delta 88 off to the crusher, I would have kept it.  Also,
if > anybody out there, for some odd reason, needs a gas tank for a '74
Delta > 88 (would probably fit other full size too), they are welcome to
it for > free if they can find a way to get it. > > Peace, Goodwill,
and Happy Oldsmobilling, > Clayton Pierce, > zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu >
'84 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme (350 4bbl. 66k miles) > '81 Oldsmobile
Cutlass Calais (350 4bbl. ? miles) {parts car} > '80 Rover 3500 (215 EFI
V8 85k miles) > '72 Mercury Marquis Brougham (429 4bbl. 110k miles)

Hi there,

I found a build sheet in my 81 Cutlass on the inside of the driver's
door panel.  Not sure if that's a standard place or not...

If you come across any different locations, post it here as I'd be
interested to know...

Ryan Hehn
ryanh@docker.com

------------------------------

From: jzeilman@stlouis.cp.lucent.com
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 17:52:00 -0400
Subject: Ertl 1/18th scale 4-4-2 & H/O

I finally got the Ertl models last night, and I must say, they were
worth the wait.  I called Toys R Us yesterday afternoon, and asked if
they got them in, and to my surprise, they had them!  I went by there,
and after they spent about an hour searching for them, the manager
finally suggested to check the dock.  Low and behold, the clerk
appeared with a crate of them still boxed up.  We opened it up, and I
snatched up three 4-4-2s and one H/O.  I am 32 years young, and felt
like a little kid that just opened his Christmas present to find his
first shiny red bicycle.  (Perhaps, a little bit of the feeling was
caused from anticipation while having to wait an hour and a half....yea
that's it)  That was the first time I had seen the real thing.  I had
seen them in a picture in an Ertl newsletter, but the picture doesn't
do them justice.  They are finely crafted works of art, that truly
capture the likeness of the real thing.  Well worth the money spent.  In
 fact, if Toys R Us hadn't gotten them in, I would have had to pay
between $35 and $40 dollars for them.  Instead I payed a mere $20.  I
picked up one for my father for Christmas, and he's gonna be very
pleased.  After all, the 4-4-2 looks quite a bit like his black '69
Cutlass.  By the way Glenn, if you read this, you GOTTA get one.  It
looks almost identical to your 4-4-2.


Jeff Zeilmann
SMTP:jzeilman@stlouis.cp.lucent.com
'68 Cutlass Supreme, '69 Cutlass S Convertible

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 19:13:01 -0400
Subject: Re[2]: just say no

But then this would be the Ch*vy Mail List server, we would all be
driving craparows, and using the word cool for every third word in our
run on sentences.

To find a nice motor, do some cheapie wheels car shopping.  Find a nice
motor from a donor car.  If you have the time and space, you can
probably part out some of the donor car and make a few bucks.  You can
also buy remanufactured Olds 307 and 403s from GM.
http://www.GMProShop.Com

David Brown   Mailto:dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu
Olds FAQ 2.0 at: http://www.en.com/users/thall/
                 ftp://arl.arizona.edu/lists/olds

- ----------
<snip>
In the last few days I've seen the word heresy attributed to this
suggestion, but I think as far as a cost to performance aspects are
concerned it it hard to beat.  Chevrolet offers a version of their 350ci
engine at about $1000. brand new in the crate, hense the term crate
motor. They have other versions, including some hi performance, at
higher prices. It is very difficult to build a motor for much under this
price, even with a free core, and there are a lot fewer things that can
go wrong with a factory new motor than almost any rebuild.  I agree that
a first class automotive machine shop can beat the pants off a factory
new motor, the average guy cannot.  It is realitively a lot of value for
the $.  Also, if all of the automobile engines ever built were compared
on the basis of utility/$, life and grief an engine can give, the 350
c.i. version of the Bowtie s.b. is impossible to beat. And I mean
impossible.

My first new car was a 390h.p., 427c.i. Corvette.  So for me everything
else is down hill...

<snip>

Yours,
Cliff Feiler
1984 Delta 88
1931 Oldsmobile Patrcian
1931 Oldsmobile 4-door

------------------------------

From: Fernando Proietto <proietto@dow.on.doe.ca>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 08:15:15 -0400
Subject: Re: motor i.d.

Rick Kromeich,
>
> Can any of you gurus decipher the following number that I was finally
able > to obtain from the motor in my 72 Cutlass ragtop. The number on
the engine > reads 38 120603. Does the eight mean it is out of a '68?,
78?, or possibly > '88. I know the engine has been replaced and I want
to find if it may > be a better performance engine over the original
(which I have).  Also there > is a 5 on the heads by the numer 1 plug.
The number on top of the timing > chain reads 395558 2.  Any info
regarding the specs/performance of this > engine compared to what should
have originally been in it would be much > appreciated as this will be a
big influence as to whether I will leave it > or spend the $$$ and
rebuild the original to put back in it.  The vin on > my car is
3J67K2M121747. Please let me know if these numbers mean sense, > or if I
should be looking elsewhere.

> I want to restore this beauty and am pretty sure it is near pretty
original > so this should confirm that.  I am really looking forward to
coming into > work on Monday to read the responses that you send.  Yes,
I know, I lead > a pretty dull life. > > Thanks guys and gals - Have a
great weekend! > -Rick > > rickk@ecg.csg.mot.com

To start these heads are from a '68-'69 350, I know because that's what
I'm using today on my '72 442. As for original, the engine id serial
number doesn't match the VIN number you have, therefore this engine
might have been replaced at one time. I will let somelese decode the
cowl tag.

Fernando

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 19:14:03 -0400
Subject: Re: 68 Olds Service Manual

At 06:29 PM 11/8/96 -0400, you wrote:
>So does anybody have a 68 Olds Service Manual they'll sell me?
>
>With two 68s in the family, it's become a necessity!
>A Fisher body manual, while not as critical, would also be beneficial.
>
>I called Brothers and they said they had a 'Factory Assembly Manual'
which >was a completely different book. This is what the factory
assemblyline >workers supposedly used when building the cars. They said
it was never >officially published by Olds, and is thusly printed
poorly: "Hey, somebody >probably lost their job to sneak this thing out,
it's a bootleg!" claimed >the cheery phone attendant at Brothers... >
>Anyone ever hear of such an animal? Worth having one? > >-Darren
Shroeger > Teal Blue 68 442 4 spd; Juneau Gray 68 Delmont > >Nielsen
Design Group >114 East Front Street >Traverse City, Michigan 49684
>t:616.946.0925 >f:616.946.2363 >e:ndg@traverse.com > > > > > I would
kill for the factory assembly manual for the 1932 Buick or Chevrolet.

For an ordinary service manual try: Al Sandy
                                    92 Geneva AVe.
                                    Westmont, N.J. 08108
                                    Ph:(609)858-0248 (after 2:00 EST.)

He might have the Fisher body manual too.  He is a very nice gentlemen,
with a vast knowledge of Oldsmobile paper, and he ain't cheap.

A 2nd chance is: Irv Bishko
                 14550 Watt
                 Novelty, OH 44072
                 Ph:(216)338-4811.

Irv is very knowledgeable too, but is a Mopar man, with a vast
collection of other paper.

I hope this helps.

Cliff Feiler
4 Oldsmobiles and still counting

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 19:04:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Paint (Was: Oil leak)

>the company I worked for had a F...
>Econoline Van.  It had silver painted bumpers.  One day the driver put
his >head thru the windshield, after striking a concrete post in a
parking lot. >It required a new windshield, and a new ft bumper.

...and a new driver...  :-)

>There was a paint code for the silver bumper paint and it was perfect.

That's the argent paint, I'd guess. They used it heavily on commercial
models and other lower-market model trim levels, on bumpers, wheels and
other places where higher trim levels would use chrome.

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: Mike Hall <mikehal1@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 19:27:57 -0400
Subject: Re: $5000 engine job??

bemet writes:
>Just had the engine in my '71 442 W 30 rebuilt. The bill says $ 5000,
after >a 3,000 original oral estimate.

In Michigan, a WRITTEN estimate is required by law and the actual value
must not exceed 20% of the expressed value.

I don't know what the law is in your state but I think that 2 grand is
worth going to small claims court. In my humble opinion, it is not
important how much it is worth, worth, after all, is a entirely
subjective thing. You may have a huge pissing contest though since it
may be his word against yours...

I hope we have learned the important lesson regarding verbal
contracts...?


Michael R. Hall                                Ortonville, Michigan
Home E-Mail: mikehal1@ix.netcom.com
Teleflex E-Mail: TFX!TFXTROYMI!TFXTROYPO!mikeh@tfx.attmail.com
The Oldsmobile Stable:
     1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass S, 380 horses of pure Mondello fun...
     1991 Oldsmobile Eighty-Eight Royale Broughm, the classy one...

------------------------------

From: Dana and Mary Taylor <dmtaylor@pop.tiac.net>
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 00:21:11 -0400
Subject: Re:

>
> ???Who said that??? Do they know anything about cars??? Just to start,
the > 350 has 40 more hp stock than your 307, and _lots_ more torque. A
basic > performance rebuild would net you at least 250-300hp easily from
a 350; the > same mods to a 307 would give you about 200-235hp. > > Go
with the 350. > > -----------

Say it again brother!!!! a coup;e of other posts were way off the mark
but you are right on

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 20:28:33 -0400
Subject: Chuck Morgan on the list? (Olds in CC)

     Dec's Car Craft has an Olds in it!!!  Reader's rides, p.69.  All
looks great, until the line of "Chevy 350 powerred...) but at least
there's an Olds in there!

Project Car Craft coming SOON!!!

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 20:34:16 -0400
Subject: Re: 307 vs 350 vs...

>> same mods to a 307 would give you about 200-235hp.
>>
>> Go with the 350.
>>
>> -----------
>
>Say it again brother!!!! a coup;e of other posts were way off the mark
>but you are right on
>
>
To stick up for the original arguement a bit, that said the '76 (?) 350
was worthless, or whatever, I'd agree to the extent that it is worthless
when compared to the older, stronger, high compression critters.
Similar componants to those will milk out much more than a '76 should be
capable of.
     To stick up for the ~other~ side of the arguement, YES, the '76 350
is twice the motor as the 307 (well maybe not ~twice~...) and the 307 is
still twice the motor as the *hevy 350, so...  :) Either way, go with
the 350.  If you're looking to buy the motor, you may consider a 403,
depending on what kind of performance you're seeking.  If you already
have the 350, run with it.


      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #358
********************************
 
