To:	oldsmobile-digest @ chebucto.ns.ca @ INTERNET
cc:	 
From:	oldsmobile-digest-owner @ chebucto.ns.ca @ INTERNET @ ABTLAB
Date:	10/01/96 02:35:30 PM
Subject:	oldsmobile-digest V1 #317


oldsmobile-digest         Tuesday, 1 October 1996      Volume 01 : Number 317


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:27:47 -0300
Subject: Re: Heads Up! --More sightings-- 

>I think the "box" is the Olds design; there is a circa-'91 Cutlass Int'l
>Series at the local train station with one.
     The Olds' one was even boxier.  I've seen two on the GP's though, too.
One boxy one (like mine) and the flattenned out one (like yours)  Mine
doesn't have any of the creature comforts in it.

 Pontiac likes the slightly
>melted, all-curves look on its interior and so goes with a dashtop molding
>that smoothes out the big bump on the top of the dash where the projector
>housing sticks up. This molding also houses sensors for daylight level and
>sunlight intensity for the twilight sentinel and HVAC systems respectively.
>
>>     Anyway, for those asking or wondering, they're out there.  Go Get Um!
>
>Since you've done the retrofit, maybe you can post a little checklist of
>the items needed from the junkyard? There's more to the system than just
>the projector housing...

     Good Idea.  The main guts of the system are in the projector housing.
There is a dimmer control of some form in the cars.  The GP one I've got has
an aiming provision in the dimmer control, the Olds one has that on top of
the projector.  I'd recommend getting as much wiring as possible, with a
bare minimum of the plugs for the dimmer and projector.  I didn't have that
option.  Someone from Oregon got to my donor after his burned up, and got
the entire wiring harness (bumper to bumper; dammit!)  I had to make my own
connectors which was a ~big~ pain.  Some may have additional electronics
elsewhere, I don't know.  I've not seen any like that, but...
If you want, you can try to get the speed sensor from the car, too, but the
stock one from '79 (limited C4 cars may have used them, I don't know.  '81
for sure) and up should work fine.
     I've also heard that HUD cars had a special windshield.  Mine works
fine for it, but I've got the double vision thing on the letters.  Barely
noticeable, but there.  I wouldn't worry about that, though.  You can't see
any of the display outside of the car.  Even head on.  Only from the
driver's seat.  Pretty cool...

     Hope this helps a bit more...  :)
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:27:17 -0300
Subject: Rear Chrome Bumpers (86 Cutlass Supreme)

Hi,

Went junkyarding at lunch today with a friend looking for Audi parts. On the 
way 
out I checked out the Oldsmobile isle looking for respectable rear bumpers for 
an 
86 Cutlass Supreme Coupe. I found an 84 and 85 in perfect shape, but I am not 
sure if they are interchangeable or not with the 86. Superficially, they look 
the 
same, but I didn't want to crawl under and look. They want 50.00 for them.


Anyone know if which years are interchangeable for the rear bumpers and if I 
can
 just get the bottom chrome piece to come off separately?  I don't want to 
mess 
around with the top vinyl piece, especially since I just had the car repainted 
this 
spring.... Thanks, Joanne

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:20:35 -0300
Subject: Re: Diagnostics 

>     If no other codes go by after the 12, starting the car should not make
>a difference.  Unless there is a malfunction in the ECM, it will dump ~all~
>of its stored codes engine on or off.

*gack*  Brain fart. Charley's right; it'll repeat Code 12 endlessly until
you start the car.

But (this is where I get into trouble 'cause I'm doing this without a
manual in front of me), the older cars such as my '82 required you to
start the car in order to get the error code(s), and if none were stored,
once the engine started there would be no further code readout of any
kind. (On one occasion I forgot to remove the jumper afterwards, and was
driving around for a week with all kinds of backfiring but no Check Engine
light of any kind.)

On the newer cars which list the error codes with the ignition on but the
engine not running, starting the engine will then get you the slow/rapid
blink routine indicating whether or not the engine is in closed-loop mode.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:25:55 -0300
Subject: Re: Diagnostics 

> What else can detect a 10% misfire AND tell you
>>>what cylinder it's in?
>>
>>Do you really want to know? If I tell you, promise you won't hate me.  ;-)
>
>     Ok, "automatically" detect it!  :)  Or is that not what ya meant...

Well, I am not referring to "know-it-all brother-in-law in the back seat",
no. Unfortunately it's a competing brand: Ford's EEC-IV has had a Cylinder
Balance Test in the diagnostics since the early '80's. Of course, as Mike
Frederick will point out, Fix Or Repair Daily presumably put that into the
processor since they knew it would be needed.  :-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:27:13 -0300
Subject: Re: interior pieces-parts for a 1969 98 

>If the fuse for clock/lighters/courtesy lights is good, usual
>>wisdom here is to fog the mechanism with a 1-second (max) squirt of
>>WD-40 through the backlighting holes in the back of the case.
>     Uh-oh, here we go again!  :)

No, I promise! I knew a lot of people must have seen that posting and
thought, "Oh, gawd, Andy's going to be chomping at his restraints again,"
so I promised the people in white coats that I'd keep it short...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 17:47:48 -0300
Subject: Re: Bondo vs FRP question

tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com wrote:
> 
> So is FRP intended to be a drop in replacement for bondo?  

Well, I guess you could put it that way.  I'd be careful where I dropped 
it, it's hell to get off the floor.  ;)  But to answer your question, the 
basic techniques are the same:  A two part epoxy resin that you mix, 
smear on, it get's hard.

The difference is, in Bondo the resin and the filler are mixed into one 
component; FRP has two: the resin and the fiberglass. 

Since FRP has no filler, the resin is thinner and therefore runnier (more 
runny?).  So in that regard it's a little harder to work with.  The good 
news is that you can build up succesive layers of fiberglass cloth and 
resin (to get what ever thickness you expected with Bondo) and get a much 
stronger repair.  Bondo has very little structural strength.

Fiberglass cloth is available in heavy mats, the "chopped" variety, and 
variety of weaves and thicknesses to suit your needs.  You don't often 
find a good selection in auto stores but marine shops carry it in big 
rolls like carpet.

> Is all of the dent pulling, priming, sanding, painting, etc more or 
> less the same for either material?

Yup.  *Nothing* is a substitute for good body work.  I usually use a 
final coat of resin only as a sealer then use a finishing putty over that 
to smooth out any minor roughness left.


The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:42:52 -0300
Subject: Re: Rear Chrome Bumpers (86 Cutlass Supreme) 

>I checked out the Oldsmobile aisle looking for respectable rear bumpers
>for an 86 Cutlass Supreme Coupe. I found an 84 and 85 in perfect shape, 
>but I am not sure if they are interchangeable or not with the 86.

Yup.

>They want 50.00 for them.

Not bad. But they rust from the inside out, so check 'em before you buy
'em. If they'll pull 'em for you and not make you do the work, great.

>Anyone know if which years are interchangeable for the rear bumpers 

My Hollander doesn't go up that far, but I'll guess that '81 up are all
the same. The original list price for that the last time I checked was
*cough* $330 US.

>and if I can just get the bottom chrome piece to come off separately?

>From what I remember of the line drawing in the manual, it does come off
separately; to begin with there's a row of Torx bolts along the bottom.
The top vinyl is attached to the body; the chrome is attached to the frame.
They overlap during the body drop, I think.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 18:00:25 -0300
Subject: Re: Bondo vs FRP question -Reply

Blaine Sanders 5483 wrote:
> 
> FRP is far superior to bondo, but much harder to work with.

Well, I agree *somewhat* harder.

> with one exception:  it sets up fast...

That depends on how much catalyst is added and the temperature.  There 
are also retardants that can be used to slow the curing process.

> ...it's hard as a rock.  I mean, you have to use a grinder...

Gee, Blaine, I've never used anything other than a regular old sander or 
a sanding disk on a Black & Decker.

> For filling very small dents ... finish it with a thin layer of bondo.

You shouldn't have much difficulty getting FRP very close to the finished 
shape.  And I recommend a finishing putty designed specifically for that 
purpose rather than Bondo (whose filler makes it too cheesey to give a 
really smooth surface).

> Work the metal until you only need the least amount of filler.

Absolutely!

> filler is bad!

In case you missed that, he said "FILLER IS BAD!"

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:04:18 -0300
Subject: Re: Bondo vs FRP question

On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com wrote:
> > Bondo and fiberglassing are two different critters.  While I'm 
> > violently opposed to bondo, I've got no problems with fiberglass 
> > (more properly referred to as Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic or FRP).
> 
> So is FRP intended to be a drop in replacement for bondo?  What I mean
> is that if I were doing some body work (which I've never done before
> by the way), could I (more or less) follow the instructions on how
> to use bondo but use FRP instead?  Is all of the dent pulling, priming,
> sanding, painting, etc more or less the same for either material? 
> Any special considerations when using FRP instead of bondo?

Having had my share of auto body work done over the years let me chime in 
on this one. IMHO the only thing that should replace metal in a car body 
is more metal. If a piece has succumbered to rot then by all means fix it 
with properly shaped and mig-welded replacement metal, or repro pieces. 
If you are doing a car "right" this is the only way to go. The only bondo 
might by a skim coat to smooth out slight irregualrities and make the car 
appear straighter. Under these conditions bondo is not a bad thing.

Replacing missing areas with bondo alone is a waste of time unless you're 
dealing with a beater that you don't care about. Fiberglassing is a 
technology that reminds me generally of the 1950s and in particular my 
brother patching his British cars in the 1960s using the stuff. It 
dries strong but will crack eventually (see Corvettes) and if done 
incorrectly will leave a very wavy and obviously patched-up look. My 
experience with fiberglass is mostly the latter, but obviously fiberglass 
can be made to look very good if properly done (again see Corvettes). I 
think the catch is that it is hard to get the hang of, whereas bondo is a 
little easier to use. 

Regardless, use as much real metal as you can. Interestingly, there seems 
to be a real difference between here and the USA in regard to bondo 
usage. Here, bondo is held largely in disrepute and decent body shops use 
it only to do finish work. Repairs are made by straightening or replacing 
metal. But I have heard from several sources that have bought cars in the 
USA that bondo is very common there, at least in certain regions, for 
filling dents without repairing them first. Several guys have bought cars 
there, brought them back for resto, stripped the paint and found many 
pounds of bondo underneath that had to be removed. Strange.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 18:03:58 -0300
Subject: Re: Diagnostics

buehner wrote:
> 
> (which, as someone else pointed out, ~is~ really cool, despite
> public/motorhead opinions.)

I have to agree with you there, pal.  I have a computerized non-Olds 
vehicle (that daily I have to repair or fix -- nudge, nudge, wink, wink) 
and, after Andy Green halped me with some technical data, I really 
getting to like the whole idea.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 18:06:28 -0300
Subject: Re: Diagnostics

Andrew C. Green wrote:
> 
> Of course, as Mike Frederick will point out, Fix Or Repair Daily 
> presumably put that into the processor since they knew it would be 
> needed.  :-)

Amen to that.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: pnelson@cyberport.net (Nelson)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:23:07 -0300
Subject: Motor 

Nelson wrote:
>
> I wiped the motor last night at the track.  I guess I finally figured
> out how long a 425 will run at 5500rpm.

Ooow!  Major bummer, dude.  Any idea what went wrong?

> What I am looking for it a place to get new/used parts.

You might try to get a hold of Chris Brown Witt, the Rocket Scientist, at
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu  He's not on the list anymore but you can still
reach him directly.  The last I talked to him, he still had a couple of
donor Toros and/or 425s around and he just LOVES to sell parts.

The 66 Toro and Mike

- - --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/



No spun a main.  I only wish I had enough compression to tighten it up like
that.  I have talked to Mr. Witt and he has been a very good sours of specs
for my beast.  The only problum is that he lives a long way away.  I reside
in Montana and the shipping would be to hard on my measly collage student
wallet.  I have found they just don't have any of these cars around here
anymore.  There isn't the resto market.  That means when I call junk yards
all I hear is "you want what, why?".  I need a place for parts in Montana,
Idaho and Washington.  Anyone who helps in the quest gets there name on
next years car.
Kenneth

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:25:52 -0300
Subject: RE: Rear Chrome Bumpers (86 Cutlass Supreme)

- ----------
From: 	Andrew C. Green[SMTP:acg@dlogics.com]
Sent: 	Monday, September 30, 1996 12:42 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Re: Rear Chrome Bumpers (86 Cutlass Supreme)


>They want 50.00 for them.

Not bad. But they rust from the inside out, so check 'em before you buy
'em. If they'll pull 'em for you and not make you do the work, great.

Ya, tell me about it.... Mine is good for another year or so, =
structurally, it looks OK, but the blisters look awful.

 They said they would pull them both off for me, and I could take a =
closer look. (Ya, all for $50.00) I had a witness. Actually, they =
probably just don't want the girlies in the junkyard getting hurt :)=20

If the inside isn't too bad, I'll probably take one of them. If they are =
both pretty good, may be worth offering 75.00 to take them both.  =
Anything I should do to the backs like wire brushing and sealing IF I =
CAN GET ALL THE RUST OUT? Big if. I have all winter.... and a lot of =
elbow grease.

------------------------------

From: <tc75918@hpr169.mdhc.mdc.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:23:28 -0300
Subject: What is the potential of the 307?  And how much $$$ ???

Anybody know how much HP and torque you can get out of a 307?
This talk of the '83 H/O that gets into the 10's with a 307 has
me wondering.  How much can be done and still keep it streetable
without resorting to the expense of super or turbo charging?

I have an '85 Salon with the 307 that I'm planning on replacing
with a 403, but now I'm wondering if I can still rebuild my 307
and get the same kind of power.  What about the computer?  Would
that have to be trashed?  I'm limited to what I can do by smog
checks.  Though I'm pretty sure I could get away with a 403 since
it looks the same as the 307, I'd rather keep the 307 just in case
things get stricter in the future.  You never know, they may start
checking block id's too.

Of course, anything you do to a 307, you can do to a 403 as well
right?  So I'll never get the power out of a 307 that I could from
a 403 for the same amount of $$$ right???

What's the best/cheapest way to get 300+ hp without going to a BB?


thanks
- --Dan

------------------------------

From: Blaine Sanders 5483 <BLAINES@strata3d.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:40:39 -0300
Subject: Re: Bondo vs FRP question -Reply 

>>> Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com> 09/30/96 03:00pm >>>
>Well, I agree *somewhat* harder.
>That depends on how much catalyst is added and the temperature. 
>There  are also retardants that can be used to slow the curing process.
>Gee, Blaine, I've never used anything other than a regular old sander or 
>a sanding disk on a Black & Decker.
>You shouldn't have much difficulty getting FRP very close to the
>finished  shape.  And I recommend a finishing putty designed
>specifically for that  purpose rather than Bondo (whose filler makes it
>too cheesey to give a  really smooth surface).

Oops.  My comments were based upon experience with a 'glass
reinforced filler known as Dura-glass.  It's used the same as bondo (thick
paste with creme hardener), instead of soaking fiberglass sheets in
hardener.  I had the impression that Dura-glass (or something similar)
was what the original poster was referring to.  My bad.  And true,
Dura-glass, too, can be sanded easily enough with *power* sanders, but
not with a hand sander.  And finishing putty is SO much more expensive
than bondo. 

>> filler is bad!

>In case you missed that, he said "FILLER IS BAD!"

[in the voice of Elvis]
Thank you...  Thank you very much.

- -Blaine

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 18:48:07 -0300
Subject: Re: Bondo vs FRP question

Greg Beaulieu wrote:
> 
> IMHO the only thing that should replace metal in a car body
> is more metal. If a piece has succumbered to rot then by all means fix 
> it with properly shaped and mig-welded replacement metal, or repro 
> pieces.

No argument.  My intention was no slight to metal but to point out that 
IMHO, Bondo sucks, FRP doesn't.  (and a mior side note that FRP is 
stronger than lead.)

In the real world, not everyone has the funds to do everything the way 
they might prefer.  ("Yeah, I need to replace that fender but I don't 
have the bucks right now so I'll have to fix it up the best that I can.") 
In that light, I was suggesting that the FRP was a much better 
alternative than (yuk) Bondo.

> Replacing missing areas with bondo alone is a waste of time unless 
> you're dealing with a beater that you don't care about. 

Yupper.

> Fiberglassing is a technology that reminds me generally of the 1950s 
> and in particular my brother patching his British cars in the 1960s 
> using the stuff.

Understood but you seem to be basing opinion on 30 to 40 year old 
experiences.  Not to mention showing your age.  ;)

> It dries strong but will crack eventually...

Maybe.  Maybe not.

> I think the catch is that it is hard to get the hang of...

But easier than welding.

> whereas bondo is a little easier to use.

"Useless" would be a better word.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:52:15 -0300
Subject: Bondo vs FRP: My 2 cents worth 

          Being originally from Central Massachusetts, I am quite 
          familiar with fiberglass and bondo techniques.  While I 
          agree that new metal is the best route, this is obviously 
          beyond the means and capabilites of many.  
          
          I'd like to start by saying that the technology has come a 
          long way since the bad old days of the early 60s.  Thanks to 
          aerospace technology (yes, I really am a "rocket scientist" 
          - why do you think I drive Oldsmobiles), 'glass and fillers 
          work quite well WHEN PROPERLY APPLIED.
          
          Read that last part again.
          
          <soapbox mode on>
          
          I don't know how many times I've seen some beater car with 
          Pep Boys cheapest grade filler troweled in to the creases 
          and rust holes, right over the oxidized paint and flaking 
          rust.  Proper prep should be a religion, starting with 
          straighening the metal to minimize filler.  Use a precleaner 
          _before_ any sanding or metal work to completely remove any 
          wax or silicones.  After straightening the metal, remove 
          _all_ paint in the general vicinity.  Thoroughly clean and 
          degrease the bare metal surface prior to applying any 
          filler.
          
          In the 'glass vs. filler (don't call it Bondo) debate, I 
          actually prefer the new style fillers (try AlumiLead - it 
          actually has powdered aluminum as a filler and reinforcing 
          material.  The real problem with any non-metallic filler 
          material is the difference in coefficient of thermal 
          expansion between the metal and the filler/'glass.  As the 
          sheet metal expands and contracts in the sun/shade, it tries 
          to force the filler to follow.  Unfortunately, the 
          non-metallic will almost always expand and contract at a 
          different rate, building in stresses which lead to the 
          cracking.  The fiberglass is much stronger, but it is also 
          stiffer.  This leads to higher built-in stresses and 
          cracking.  Fillers tend to be less stiff and will thus 
          follow the movements of the sheet metal more readily.  
          Unfortunately, improper application can also lead to 
          cracking and thus the poor reputation of fillers.
          
          Note that the thicker the filler, the more prone it will be 
          to cracking.  Keep all filler coats to an absolute minimun.  
          Filler is not a substitute for good metal work.
          
          <soapbox mode off>
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:54:54 -0300
Subject: Re: What is the potential of the 307?  And how much $$$ ??? 

          
Of course, anything you do to a 307, you can do to a 403 as well 
right?  So I'll never get the power out of a 307 that I could from 
a 403 for the same amount of $$$ right???

          The only substitute for cubic inches is rectangular dollars
          
What's the best/cheapest way to get 300+ hp without going to a BB?
          
          See above.
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 18:54:38 -0300
Subject: Re: Bondo vs FRP question -Reply

Blaine Sanders 5483 wrote:
>
> Dura-glass... same as bondo (thick paste with creme hardener)

"Bondo" has become a word like "Xerox"  ...but their both lousy.

> instead of soaking fiberglass sheets in hardener.

Not actually how it's done.

> And finishing putty is SO much more expensive than bondo.

Which is why the surface should be smooth enough so that only a small 
amount is required.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: grpruett@vt.edu (Greg Pruett)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 06:18:43 -0300
Subject: Vista-Cruiser Question 

A question to the folks who have the Vista-Roof option on their staion
wagons: Are there drain holes under the chrome around the sunroof to keep
water from pooling up?  I get nasty looking stains on the finish from the
water running off of the sunroof.  I think the water picks up dust from
under the chrome around the edge of the glass and then I get black water
marks.  Thought maybe if there is a drain somewhere that needs unstopping
then maybe the water wouldn't stain the finish so badly.

Thanks in advanace for any info.

Greg Pruett
`72 Vista-Cruiser

------------------------------

From: "Jason Hairston" <jth442@msn.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:32:14 -0300
Subject: 77 rust 

I have a 77 442 that is in pretty good shape.  My father bought it new and now 
its mine.  It was garage kept until 1991.  There is some minor rust below the 
right bottom corner of the rear window and below the right back window, as 
well as some rust at the bottom of the back right wheel well.  What's the best 
way to fix the rust or should I go ahead and cutout the metal and weld before 
a new paint job?  It could use a paint job.



Jason Hairston

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:51:29 -0300
Subject: Re: Bondo vs FRP: My 2 cents worth

JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com wrote:
> 
>           In the 'glass vs. filler (don't call it Bondo) debate, I
>           actually prefer the new style fillers (try AlumiLead - it
>           actually has powdered aluminum as a filler...

Any long term concern here with the dissimilar metals?

>           and reinforcing material.  

How so?  Not sure I follow how the powder provides any reinforcement.  
Chemical bonding?

>           The fiberglass is much stronger, but it is also stiffer.  
>           This leads to higher built-in stresses and cracking.

I'm not sure I'd be that broad about it.  Cracking's not an inherent 
characteristic of FRP but could be a result of misapplication.

>           Filler is not a substitute for good metal work.

The 11th Commandment.

And what's with those indents, anyway, Joe?

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:57:03 -0300
Subject: re: Bondo vs FRP

> I personally hate bondo, too.  FRP is far superior to bondo, but much
> harder to work with.  Yes, its application is exactly the same as bondo,
> with one exception:  it sets up fast, and when it does, it's hard as a rock.

Well I'm not very fond of bondo either.  What I've got right now are spots
on Tiny's doors where bondo is flaking off from past dent repairs.  I'm 
mostly an engine/electronics person myself -- I don't do much if any paint 
or body work.  I've had shops tell me that this is just from "bad" bondo 
work (how bondo work can be good is beyond me)  and that this wouldn't 
happen if the bondo had been applied correctly.  What do you fellow 
olds-list members have to say about that?  I don't know anything about 
when or how the now-flakey body work was done on the doors.

What I would really like to do is get some new door skins and just weld
them into place instead of trying to get all of this bondo out of the
current doors.  How feastable is that?  ie how much more will it cost and
what are the odds I could find the skins?
 
Any other suggestions for the doors? 

- - Travis and the 69 olds 98 convertible aka "Tiny"
- --
Travis McWaters                           Transmission Products Division
tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com               DSC Communications Corporation

------------------------------

From: tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:58:46 -0300
Subject: front grills (not just Olds)

> Has anyone ever noticed that on most 73-77 Cutlasses the passenger 
? side grill is almost invariably the side that is damaged/missing? 
> Almost every one I've seen in the salvage yards is missing that side... 

Heh.  You should try finding a front grill for a 1981 Jeep Cherokee or 
Wagoneer.  I don't know how many times I heard "well, the only thing
that takes those things out is a good solid hit to the front..."  

Alas I've since sold my 81 Cherokee.  It's a decision I've regretted 
just about every time I think of it.  Da**it.  I guess after the
second electrical fire you really should let go, huh?  Nah... 
I guess the good part is that I'm 100% sure we're never got to let
Tiny get away from us.  I won't make that mistake again.  Everybody,
if you even _think_ you like your car for more than just a car,
DON'T SELL IT!

Lastly, if anyone happens to know of a nice pre 1984 Jeep Cherokee
(the year they went small) for sale, drop me a line.  I'd really like
to get hold of one and keep it in "restored" condition.  I'd also like
to get another one, make it indestructible, then test that idea :)

- - Travis and the 69 olds 98 convertible aka "Tiny"
- --
Travis McWaters                           Transmission Products Division
tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com               DSC Communications Corporation

------------------------------

From: Jeffrey.Easton@add.ssw.abbott.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 17:02:17 -0300 
Subject: Re: Diagnostics

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>

>>     There are honest-to-god code Scanners, which are a completely
>>     different animal, and much much more expensive (too much for the home
>>     mechanic).  These can be hooked up to show the data coming from your
>>     car in "real time", and are invaluable if you're trained to use one.

True,  My aforemetioned '88 Monte SS had only the paper clip method
of getting data.  Carb'ed cars didnt have nearly the info FI cars have.

>One of these days I'm going to see if my wife will let me buy one.  ;-)

Nah, just build one.  Worked for me.  Once you have the scan codes
the rest is easy.  I built a small uP based board with LCD readout for
my '92 Yukon.  Cant say I've ever used the data to troubleshoot
a problem but it looks cool. :-)

The main problem with these scan tools is that GM seems to have changed
the data stream every couple of years.  My '95 Bonneville has what amounts
to a LAN in it.  Still havent figured that one out.

- -Jeff
jeffrey.easton@add.ssw.abbott.com

1970 442  4-Speed  (completly computer free)

------------------------------

From: Drew <senko@reston.ans.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:55:27 -0300
Subject: Re: Kanter / P.S.T.

> If what you say is true, then the Polygraphite kit from Kanter is the way
> to go.  If I remember right, thier deluxe kit is cheaper than PST's, and
> includes more parts.  Hmm...
>  
> - -BS

Blaine,

The Kanter kit is cheaper, yes, but I don't think it has more parts.  I
think it has less.

Kanter lists a Deluxe Front End Kit for $230, and says "Typical Front End
Kit Contains:"

- - polyurethane control arm bushings
- - strut rod bushings
- - stabilizer link kits
- - upper and lower ball joints
- - outer tie rod ends
- - 2 upper inner shafts

Perhaps their Deluxe kit has more parts than the catalog lists.  I think
the Kanter catalog descriptions are simply more general since they cover
many makes of car.

PST covers many makes, but they are explicit about their kits, with respect
to car manufacturer.  PST's Super Front End Kit for GM cars for $339 contains:

- - 4 polygraphite upper inner control arm bushings
- - (2 or 4) polygraphite lower inner control arm bushings
- - 2 polygraphite strut rod bushings (if required)
- - 2 polygraphite stabilizer links
- - 2 upper and 2 lower ball joints
- - 2 outer tie rod ends
- - 2 upper inner shafts

- - 2 polygraphite sway bar bushings with brackets
- - control arm bumpers (for most models)
- - 2 inner tie rod ends
- - tie rod adjusting sleeves
- - 1 idler arm

The same kit from PST with rubber instead of polygraphite goes for $279.

The right kit really depends on how much you need.  If you need everything,
or don't want to deal with any of it for a long time, then the PST kits
sound good.  If the Kanter kit has everything you need, then that might be
the wiser choice.  It's good to know, though, that Kanter is selling the
PST parts.
- -- 
                    _
                    |\            Convertibles                     
     .__====-_._____|_\______         Rule!                        Drew Senko
     [   ___  |-     |  ___  \                           senko@reston.ans.net
     =\_//.\\_|______|_//.\\__)                  http://members.gnn.com/senko
_________\_/____________\_/__________________________________________________

------------------------------

From: tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 17:07:05 -0300
Subject: Re: Plastic Chrome

> I was interested in plastic chroming the pair of armrest bases 
> in my '64, and it would have been over $100 as I recollect. 
> They are now painted chrome silver... not as good but much cheaper! 

I'm not so much of a purist that I'm above doing something like this.
How well did it work out?  What kind of chrome silver paint did you
use, something special or just KRYLON #<blah> ?   I don't mind if it
doesn't shine quite as well so long as it is durable.  Tiny is 
(or at least tries to be) a daily driver.  I'd rather pay the extra
money if it menas the chrome stays on another 25 years instead of 5.

- - Travis and the 69 olds 98 convertible aka "Tiny"
- --
Travis McWaters                           Transmission Products Division
tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com               DSC Communications Corporation

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:00:46 -0300
Subject: re: Bondo vs FRP 

>I've had shops tell me that this is just from "bad" bondo 
>work (how bondo work can be good is beyond me)  and that this wouldn't 
>happen if the bondo had been applied correctly.  What do you fellow 
>olds-list members have to say about that?

Well, let's put it this way: As someone else said, the proper repair
is to straighten the metal and prepare the surface, then use Bondo to
fill in surface irregularities where necessary. Using it to fill large
painted cavities and dents is like trying to build a wall with spackle.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: WMACHINES@aol.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 17:15:48 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Does anyone know this guy? (Mich area) 

In a message dated 96-09-30 09:58:16 EDT, you write:

<< Now Jack is racing ford Mustangs, due to FoMoCo are giving him the cars.
           
 W MACHINES
           
           Actually, the real problem is that Olds pulled out of NHRA 
           racing sponsorship at the end of last season to persue IMSA 
           and now IRL.  It's that nasty owner demographics thing.
           
           Pontiac is now the official GM drag racing division, thus 
           the switch to Firebirds by Warren Johnson et al.  :(
           
           Joe Padavano
           jpada@hqgate.orbital.com >>

Actually Jack started racing Fords about 7 years ago, before Olds pulled out.
Olds wasn't into helping the small guy then and Ford made an offer he
couldn't
refuse.

W Machines

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 20:25:08 -0300
Subject: Re: Bondo vs FRP

Andrew C. Green wrote:
> 
> Using it to fill large painted cavities and dents is like trying to 
> build a wall with spackle.

Thank you, Andy.  That's exactly the analogy I was looking for.  If you 
aren't in a position to fix a hole with metal, glass it.  Don't use body 
fillers.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: WMACHINES@aol.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 17:24:13 -0300
Subject: Re: W-30 or not? 

In a message dated 96-09-30 11:10:48 EDT, you write:

<< How do you tell if your 1970 442 is a W-30 or not?
 It is a holiday coupe produced in Lansing.   >>

Look for a build sheet first.  It is found on top of the gas tank, or behind
the rear seat or even under the front seat or under the carpet.  If not found
then make sure the Vin starts with 344.  That determines it is a 442.  Then
look
for the options such as F heads, aluminum intake that says oldsmobile, red
inner
fender wells, A posi tag, An (OW) transmission, OAI hood and air cleaner and 
check the numbers of the distributor and carburator.  Thats the only way.
 Unfortunately 68 to 71 442's can be made up to W-30's if they have all the
right 
parts.  The real way is with a build sheet.  In 72 the vin was changed and 72
became
the only year to check a real W-30 is with a X in the vin.

W MACHINES
72 442 W-30 Race Rocket (real with a X in the vin)

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 18:57:21 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Bondo vs FRP: My 2 cents worth 

          
Any long term concern here with the dissimilar metals?
          
          Apparently not.  Seems the epoxy provides enough insulation 
          between the aluminum and the steel.  
          
Not sure I follow how the powder provides any reinforcement.  Chemical 
bonding?
          
          Maybe I've spent too much time reading the can, but I guess 
          it's a little like metal matrix composites - the tiny 
          lithium wiskers still provide increased strength and 
          stiffness.  Yeah, I'm reaching for this one...
          
Cracking's not an inherent characteristic of FRP but could be a result of 
misapplication.
          
          Yes.  The problem is still difference in CTE.  Actually it 
          isn't the fiberglass that cracks, but the resin to metal 
          bond which is the weak link.  The episode that drilled this 
          home for me was the plastic (yes, plastic) scoop that I 
          attempted to fiberglass to a metal 68 Cutlass hood back in 
          my high school days (even worse, it was an L-88 scoop - 
          actually, the pointed scoop didn't look half bad on the 
          similarly pointed 68 hood...).  I was now dealing with three 
          different CTEs.  It was a disaster.
          
And what's with those indents, anyway, Joe?
          
          Apparently CC:Mail doesn't provide the ">" when replying, so 
          this lets me set off my new comments from the old ones
          
The 66 Toro and Mike
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30 (w/o L-88 scoop)
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 18:07:30 -0300
Subject: Re: Plastic Chrome

On Mon, 30 Sep 1996 tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com wrote:
> I'm not so much of a purist that I'm above doing something like this.
> How well did it work out?  What kind of chrome silver paint did you
> use, something special or just KRYLON #<blah> ?   I don't mind if it
> doesn't shine quite as well so long as it is durable.  Tiny is 
> (or at least tries to be) a daily driver.  I'd rather pay the extra
> money if it menas the chrome stays on another 25 years instead of 5.

They turned out OK... would have been better except I tried to gild the 
lily by clearcoating them and that actually seemed to make them duller 
than just the paint alone. I'm going to do them again (it's been 3 years) 
and this time I'm using Krylon. Dunno how good it will be but generally I 
find their stuff pretty good.

BTW I checked my material from Mr. G's and the description is less than I 
thought, in fact there was a better one posted here the other day. They 
describe it as vacuum metalizing followed by clearcoating. That's about 
as much as they describe. Incidentally, I forgot until now that the main 
part of their business seems to be fasteners, clips, grommets and other 
assorted small doohickeys that are often impossible to find. Interesting 
reading but I imagine it would be very hard to identify exactly the piece 
you'd need from the catalog.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 18:11:12 -0300
Subject: The Goat Farmer

On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Timothy A. Churchill wrote:
> I got a core from 'The Goat Farmer of Oklahoma' (yeah, he likes them Ponchos,
> but he has a lotta Cutlass stuff too), and sent it to Az Plastic Chrome...
> several weeks later, I got a beautiful instrument cluster back.  They did the
> chrome, the silver and black areas, and they even polished the instrument
> cluster clear plastic.
> 
> 'bout $200 for the work from Az Chrome, and $100 for the core from the Goat
> Farmer.

This reminded me of the one time I talked to the Goat Farmer of 
Oklahoma... what a trip. He cackled madly on the phone and rambled on and 
on... scared me about exactly how safe it would be to buy anything from 
him. Entertaining, though... and glad your experience was positive.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@ccn.cs.dal.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Johnifer Czerwinski <JohniferAC@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 18:25:43 -0300
Subject: unsubscribe

Please get me off list for e-mail
        unsubscribe JohniferAC@worldnet.att.net

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:53:13 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Bondo vs FRP: My 2 cents worth

JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com wrote:
> 
>           Maybe I've spent too much time reading the can, but I guess
>           it's a little like metal matrix composites - the tiny
>           lithium wiskers still provide increased strength and
>           stiffness.  Yeah, I'm reaching for this one...

Makes some sense.

>           Yes.  The problem is still difference in CTE.  Actually it
>           isn't the fiberglass that cracks, but the resin to metal
>           bond which is the weak link.

That I'll buy.  Back where we started with Esko's post on priming the 
surface, I suggested sanding to metal before applying any resins.  As you 
say, the resin to metal bond is the weak link.  Which is why we should 
always uses resins formulated for adhesion to metal -- not fiberglass or 
wood.  And, for the reason yopu cite, make sure there is a good overlap 
of fiberglass to the metal surface.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:16:43 -0300
Subject: Re: What is the potential of the 307?  And how much $$$ ???

>What's the best/cheapest way to get 300+ hp without going to a BB?

Well the best way is a Vortech or Paxton supercharger along with some NOS.
Cheapest way would be an older Olds 350 or if you want to stir some emotions
go with a 383 or 406 Chevy:)
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com) f-body list since: 5/95
88 Camaro Iroc-Z/28 CFI 305/TH-350....daily driver
81 Camaro 229V6/3spd man....................don't know yet
80 Olds 4-4-2 W-30  350/TH350................show car
75 Hurst/Olds W-25 350/TH350................restoration project

------------------------------

From: Chris Urban <urbanch@magi.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:11:32 -0300
Subject: Corel + Olds

Just wondering if anyone would be interested in this. I took a picture =
of my 69 Cutlass in front of Dr. Micheal Coplands new 15 million dollar =
home today. If your wondering who he is, he is the man behind Corel as =
in Corel Draw 6.0

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:07:18 -0300
Subject: '72 Vista Cruiser FS: $1200 

Here is the phone # for that 1972 Vista Cruiser I mentioned the other week.

(401) 274-8488 [not my car]

This is located in Providence, RI. It seems to have an interior in good
shape, there are no major dents or dings in the body, and the glass is all
there and good. It is a 350/2-bbl, cream/woodgrain with a light-brown
interior (good shape), and hubcaps on 14" rims.

On the negative side, the fenders, quarters and tailgate all have major
rust. Possibly need to replace the rocker panels, and door skins. And patch
around the window openings. Basically, despite being ding-free, the body is
shot.

There is a sign in the window for $1200; for comparison the $250 VC I parted
had more dings, but less rust, a worse interior, and didn't run.

If anyone is still seriously interested in this, I can do a preliminary
investigation. E-mail me directly.

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
- - 1978 Electra Limited Landau Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: Brad Bowles <wolds@napanet.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 19:33:21 -0300
Subject: Member contact list?

I filled out the info on the member contace list that someone made up 
for us to fill out.  But now how do I access that list to contact others 
in my area?

Thanks
Brad
'70 442

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 23:44:42 -0300
Subject: Re: Member contact list?

Brad Bowles wrote:
> 
> But now how do I access that list to contact others in my area?

Try: http://www.student.toplinks.com/hp/rovernut/list/main.html

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 22:04:32 -0300
Subject: Re: Corel + Olds 

Just wondering if anyone would be interested in this. I took a picture = 
of my 69 Cutlass in front of Dr. Micheal Coplands new 15 million dollar = 
home today. If your wondering who he is, he is the man behind Corel as = 
in Corel Draw 6.0

          Also now the owners of WordPerfect, which I also use while 
          swimming against the Microsoft tide...sort of like trying to 
          build an Olds in a Chevy world...
          
          (and they're off...)
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 w-30

------------------------------

From: Tucker@aol.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:14:12 -0300
Subject: Re: Tri-Power 

Im interested i've got a 66 442 with tripower and would like to have spare
parts

------------------------------

From: Dan Williams <dr_olds@pitnet.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:31:28 -0300
Subject: Sun super tach II

I have an sun super tach II that I want to hook up and have no idea what 
wires are what.  They are:

blue
red
green
black

Can anybody help me out?

TIA,

Dan

- -- Note the new e-mail address

------------------------------

From: oldsnut@westworld.com (Chuck Noppe)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:33:02 -0300
Subject: Re: a Chrysler blue Olds engine? 

>At 05:20 AM 9/30/96 -0300, Tom Lentz wrote:
>>
>>     POR makes some good stuff.  Their engine paint is no doubt good 
>>     quality.  Personally, if the color is that close to a match then I 
>>     doubt that anyone would ever notice unless your car is lined up 
>>     between 10 other Old's at a show to compare it to.  If they notice, 
>>     the judges may knock off a few points.  If you're not showing it, I 
>>     think all of the Olds fans that I know would be extrememly happy that 
>>     you at least _tried_ to match the color rather than paint it that d*mn 
>>     orange. . .
>
>I have found that for the closest color match Regular Krylon metalic blue is a
very close match, it will burn off the heads at the exhast manifold and
where the heat passes through the intake but a lot of "high heat" paints do
the same and like I said I have yet to see a better match for the money
Chuck Noppe 

Oldsnut @ westworld.com


71 Oldsmobile Ninety Eight LS
71 Cadillac Coupe Deville
72 Oldsmobile Ninety Eight Regency
72 Oldsmobile Toronado Brougham
92 Mercury Grand Marquis

------------------------------

From: Chris Urban <urbanch@magi.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:38:18 -0300
Subject: RE: What is the potential of the 307?  And how much $$$ ???

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBAF0F.DC0B02E0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

300 hp from an Olds SB is no sweat at all. Just a mild build up will 
accomplish that. What engine do you have to work with?


- ----------
From: 	Jason Labay[SMTP:z28cfi@gwis.com]
Sent: 	Monday, September 30, 1996 6:16 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Cc: 	oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca
Subject: 	Re: What is the potential of the 307?  And how much $$$ ???


>What's the best/cheapest way to get 300+ hp without going to a BB?

Well the best way is a Vortech or Paxton supercharger along with some NOS.
Cheapest way would be an older Olds 350 or if you want to stir some emotions
go with a 383 or 406 Chevy:)
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com) f-body list since: 5/95
88 Camaro Iroc-Z/28 CFI 305/TH-350....daily driver
81 Camaro 229V6/3spd man....................don't know yet
80 Olds 4-4-2 W-30  350/TH350................show car
75 Hurst/Olds W-25 350/TH350................restoration project






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NwAA5Ic=

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBAF0F.DC0B02E0--

------------------------------

From: Katana72@aol.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:47:44 -0300
Subject: Red Fender Liners 

I was reading somebody's profile on the olds mailing list and he stated that
he did not believe that the red fender liners on his 69 442 was correct.
     I had been taught by one of my friends, an avid 442 fan and expert on
the Olds 442,  that the red fender liners were a trademark of the 442. I
can't remember if was applicable to all years, but I'm fairly sure it was
through 1970.
     I'm still looking for some help from you guys on my motor number,
            3411240535(??????????????). I know that the number is close, but
not absolutely sure on it.

Katana72             It's not your Daddy's Oldsmobile !!!!!!!!      Hastings,
MN

------------------------------

From: oldsnut@westworld.com (Chuck Noppe)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:51:10 -0300
Subject: Re: interior pieces-parts for a 1969 98 

>> >  I've got a laundry list of odds-n-ends type interior pieces-parts
>> > that I need for Tiny.  
>> 
>> Travis there is a 69 98 in a pick a part junk yard that i go to on a
regular basis, if you e-mail a list of all wants needs, etc I will happily
get the parts for you, pick a part is a self serve yard and as such prices
are reasonable. looks like excluding the column most parts will fall in the
2-15 dollar range and I am happy to help out a fellow olds 98 owner ( well
any olds owner actually but especially those with 98's) please send an
e-mail with your list please prioritise what you need most
>
>- Travis and the 69 olds 98 convertible aka "Tiny"
>--
>Travis McWaters                           Transmission Products Division
>tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com               DSC Communications Corporation
>
>
>
Chuck Noppe 

Oldsnut @ westworld.com


71 Oldsmobile Ninety Eight LS
71 Cadillac Coupe Deville
72 Oldsmobile Ninety Eight Regency
72 Oldsmobile Toronado Brougham
92 Mercury Grand Marquis

------------------------------

From: oldsnut@westworld.com (Chuck Noppe)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:58:41 -0300
Subject: Re: interior pieces-parts for a 1969 98 

>> - Correct cigar lighters for front and rear.
>> - Clock -- mine is stopped, not sure why.
>
>If the wrong cigar lighters blew their fuse, your clock would stop
>too. If the fuse for clock/lighters/courtesy lights is good, usual
>wisdom here is to fog the mechanism with a 1-second (max) squirt of
>WD-40 through the backlighting holes in the back of the case.
>

If that is not it pull the clock out of the dash (not a fun task)and remove
the back cover. find the contact points (like in your ignition) and clean
them up with a jewlers file or wifes emory board (don't let her catch you
though!) lube mechanism with wd-40 (light mist) and while the clock is out
clean the plastic face in and out with windex, then reassemble. clock will
work for several years

I redo mine about evert 2 1/2 - 3 years.

 
>Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
>Datalogics, Inc.
>441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
>Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473
>
>
>
Chuck Noppe 

Oldsnut @ westworld.com


71 Oldsmobile Ninety Eight LS
71 Cadillac Coupe Deville
72 Oldsmobile Ninety Eight Regency
72 Oldsmobile Toronado Brougham
92 Mercury Grand Marquis

------------------------------

From: WMACHINES@aol.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 22:22:14 -0300
Subject: Re: Red Fender Liners 

In a message dated 96-09-30 20:56:23 EDT, you write:

<<    I had been taught by one of my friends, an avid 442 fan and expert on
 the Olds 442,  that the red fender liners were a trademark of the 442. I
 can't remember if was applicable to all years, but I'm fairly sure it was
 through 1970. >>
68-71 W-30's have red inner fender wells 
W Machines

------------------------------

From: ImaLsrBaby@aol.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 22:30:51 -0300
Subject: Re: Red Fender Liners 

I think the W30 was all that had the Red fender hubs

------------------------------

From: Bob Valentine <ravalent@liii.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 23:06:30 -0300
Subject: Re: Sun super tach II

On Mon, 30 Sep 1996, Dan Williams wrote:

> I have an sun super tach II that I want to hook up and have no idea what 
> wires are what.  They are:
> 
> blue
> red
> green
> black
> 
> Can anybody help me out?

   The easiest way is to pull the wires out (if they're the the ones with 
the push on connectors) and look down into the hole at the PC board.  
>From memory, B is for Battery, T is for Tach (signal), L is for Light, 
and G is for Ground.   If you don't have the pull-off wires, I'd just 
dissassemble it and have a look around.   I made my own harness since I'd 
had so many problems with the connectors - just soldered them right to 
the PC board.

   Just hooked one up last night, that's what they were.   

   And a FYI - the SuperTachII *DOES NOT* work with MSD ignitions.  ;^<

                     -->   Bob Valentine  <--  
                    --> ravalent@liii.com  <--
        "Experience varies directly with equipment ruined"

------------------------------

From: Spud <spud@kudonet.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 23:13:52 -0300
Subject: RE:  Plastic Chrome 

At 08:12 AM 9/30/96 -0300, you wrote:
>> my recollection.  I'm guessing that the process is similar to that used for
>> printed circuit boards.
>
>Well, that was a quess. And the answer is partially Yes and mainly No.

For plastic plating, it was a guess.

>The copper is placed over the blank board mechanically.

Perhaps in Finland, but in NA, Japan the process is as I described and is
used to produce the copper-clad industrial laminates (CCILs) that are the
bases for printed circuit boards.  I know this because of work I did for my
last employer, which, by the very nature of the work required direct acces
to the proprietary processes used by the companies that made both the CCIL
and the finished boards.

This is not to say that no one makes them by mechanical adhesion, but I
never saw a process from a modern board house that bothered.  The chemical
method is well suited to mass production, giving high yields, but does have
the environmental problems for disposal.  Many of those processes are moving
to water based methods, were feasible.

>The wiring image is painted by some method over the copper
>layer. For prototypes they use UV-sensitive laquer and for large quantities
>a silk-press is used. The copper lying under the laquer is left untouch when
>the board is dipped into etching solution.

This is basically correct.  UV sensitive etchant masks are used for the
solk-screen methods, too.

>In multi-layer boards, the holes are plated with the process you mentioned.

And for double-sided boards.

>BTW, today they "drill" the holes using a water siphon.

Not all, but quite a few are.  Mechanical drilling is still prevalent.  BTW,
folks, he meant to say "water jet."

>* Esko Ilola 


Spud     "Fart proudly."
'86 FXST   --Benjamin Franklin
'73 Delta 88
'79 LeBaron

------------------------------

From: Spud <spud@kudonet.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 23:13:55 -0300
Subject: Re: Electrical troubleshooting 

At 09:33 AM 9/30/96 -0300, Andrew wrote:

Because Spud wrote:

>>Have you checked what the brake lights are doing while the noise
>>is on?
>
>I like this idea.

It was free, so what the heck.

>snipped some good advice<

>>The reason I'm asking is, the turn signal switch in the steering 
>>column is interconnected with the brake light switch in such a way
>>that the turn signal for the side that's supposed to be blinking 
>>doesn't get a solid "ON" when the brake pedal is pressed. The 
>>clicking noise could be the turn signal flasher can making a vague 
>>attempt to operate, but not really being able to manage it because 
>>the brake lights are on and the turn signal switch isn't solidly 
>>turned to one direction or the other.
>
>Hmmm. The brake switch is "upstream" from the turn signal switch,

Except that if they weren't interconnected, when you step on the brakes,
you'd lose your rear turn signals.  I did an analysis of a '64 Chevelle I
had and found this to be the case: the brake circuit passed through the trun
signal switch; the side for which the turn signal was "ON" had the brake
contacts broken; the side that didn't have the turn signal "ON" had the
brake contacts made.

It seemed such a simple idea, regardless of how complicated the eventual
mechanics were, that I, perhaps wrongly, assumed that's how most or all turn
signal/brake electrics were.  The only good replacement that might
uncomplicate this would have to be electronic controls, which would reduce
the moving parts, reduce mfg. costs and potentiall yimprove reliability
(yeah, if executed well); ain't such a bad idea and I understand that's the
direction modern cars have gone or are moving toward.

>Andrew C. Green 


Spud     "Fart proudly."
'86 FXST   --Benjamin Franklin
'73 Delta 88
'79 LeBaron

------------------------------

From: Darren Shroeger <redhead@mailmasher.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 23:13:33 -0300
Subject: Re: Red Fender Liners 

> he did not believe that the red fender liners on his 69 442 was correct.

Well, gee, they wouldn't be correct on a '69 442, but WOULD be correct
for a '69 W30 442. Has your friend noticed any strange under-bumper scoops
on this car?

- -Darren Shroeger 
 '68 442 / 4-speed
 '80 GP Partsrunner / 350 Oldspowered!

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 00:46:49 -0300
Subject: Re: Vin-body-engine Id #'s?? 

In a message dated 96-09-30 00:02:29 EDT, you write:

> Could someone please tell me the exact information I need off of my car
>  to identify my 1970 Cutlass? I saw messages a while back that dealt with
>  this. I need to know the person's E-mail address as well that is
>  providing this great service for identifying our cars!

Uhhh, I think you're talking about me here, as I have been known to do my
best to decipher a data plate or two.  I need all of the info off of your
Fisher body tag, which is located on the top of the firewall, on the driver's
side, right by the hood hinge.  Give me all the numbers you have.  You can
email me at PHartlieb@aol.com.  If you want to know about engine and tranny
numbers, I'm NOT your man, there are others that are much more knowledgable
on these items.  I'm strictly a body, paint and trim kinda guy.

Paul

------------------------------

From: David1756@aol.com
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 01:35:18 -0300
Subject: Re: Chicago Olds list 

Andy wrote:

>(And _do_ bring kids so that
>my two-year-old will have some company.

Will do, and then to keep things appropriate, I'll bring a box full of my 3
year old's toy cars, maybe that will keep them busy while we try to talk (and
eat and watch etc).

David Wilk

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 01:53:20 -0300
Subject: Re: Diagnostics 

>> What else can detect a 10% misfire AND tell you
>>>>what cylinder it's in?
>>>
>>>Do you really want to know? If I tell you, promise you won't hate me.  ;-)
>>
>>     Ok, "automatically" detect it!  :)  Or is that not what ya meant...
>
>Well, I am not referring to "know-it-all brother-in-law in the back seat",
>no. Unfortunately it's a competing brand: Ford's EEC-IV has had a Cylinder
>Balance Test in the diagnostics since the early '80's. Of course, as Mike
>Frederick will point out, Fix Or Repair Daily presumably put that into the
>processor since they knew it would be needed.  :-)
>
     Sure, talk dirty to me! :)  I know Ford's electronics were rather
impressive in the early 90's.  I never dealt with them that much, tho.  That
power balance was really neat, I though, well ahead of its time.  It was
kinda fun freerevving that 5 Liter to start the test.  "Says right there:
Floor it!"  (I'm pretty sure that was the test requiring the brief WOT)
     The difference here (besides Ford vs. real cars  tho' --gotta throw
that in!-- )  is that the EEC-IV required to be in diagnosis for the misfire
test to occur.  The OBD-II does that while you drive.  (I guess I can't give
GM credit there, since OBD is an across the board technology, and the Fed's
said they ~had~ to...) The crankshaft sensor will monitor the torsional
vibrations and record the amount of uneven twist from each cylinder's firing
event.  If any of them are irregular at all, it can tell within something
like 200 revolutions, and flag a misfire code.  They've got programmed-in
electronics to compensate for gravel road vibrations, too!  (they thought of
everything...  Well, maybe not!)  All this is automatic while you drive down
the road.  Don't have to touch a thing.  Occasionally, the PCM will trigger
components at random (essentially).  You can be driving along, and the PCM
will send a 10~20% signal to the EGR valve, and monitor the MAP sensor, rpm,
O2 content, etc. to see that the EGR actually openned.  No blocking those
off.  It will occasionally pressurize the fuel system (tank and all) to test
for evaporative leaks.  If you forget to tighten the gas cap, (on some
models) the Malfunction Indicator Lamp comes on to tell you there's a
problem!  Almost as bad as a wife to say "hey dummy, you forgot your gas
cap!"  Lots of fun!  
     Gotta go, my server's gonna shut me down; been here too long!
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 02:20:37 -0300
Subject: RE: What is the potential of the 307?  And how much $$$ ??? 

>Cheapest way would be an older Olds 350 or if you want to stir some emotions
>go with a 383 or 406 Chevy:)


     Ack, cough, sputter, hack, pteui!  What?  Aren't there censorship laws
referring to talk like that?  :)
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@sequent1.providence.edu>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 02:27:51 -0300
Subject: Re: What is the potential of the 307?  And how much $$$ ??? 

At 02:23 PM 9/30/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Anybody know how much HP and torque you can get out of a 307?

Well, on a purely theoretical level, you could get over 900hp (turbo,
nitrous, steel crank, alum. heads, etc.) for short periods of time.

>This talk of the '83 H/O that gets into the 10's with a 307 has
>me wondering.  How much can be done and still keep it streetable
>without resorting to the expense of super or turbo charging?

Well, that's a different story. I doubt that the 10-sec. 307 is very
streetable with the duration of that cam. Plus, the suspension would be
optimized for straight-line traction, so turning a bumpy corner would be a
whole different sort of fun for you.

A streetable 307 should be able to put out between 225-250hp with the stock
short-block and modified heads. This could probably be done while keeping
the factory computer as well. You'd be hard-pressed to get 300
computer-controlled hp out of a 307 with factory heads; it will simply have
to rev too high to make that kind of hp, and the cam to do that will tax the
parameters the stock computer is meant to work within. With a modified PROM,
though, I suppose anything is possible.

>I have an '85 Salon with the 307 that I'm planning on replacing
>with a 403, but now I'm wondering if I can still rebuild my 307
>and get the same kind of power.  What about the computer?  Would
>that have to be trashed?  I'm limited to what I can do by smog
>checks.  Though I'm pretty sure I could get away with a 403 since
>it looks the same as the 307, I'd rather keep the 307 just in case
>things get stricter in the future.  You never know, they may start
>checking block id's too.

Tough decision. Of course you can get more hp at the same rpm from a 403,
but again, the computer would probably have to be reprogrammed. You can
always modify/repunch the numbers on your block to make it a better
"replacement" for a 307 block; unlikely that the inspector will try to
identify the ground-off "403" up under the exhaust manifolds.

>Of course, anything you do to a 307, you can do to a 403 as well
>right?  So I'll never get the power out of a 307 that I could from
>a 403 for the same amount of $$$ right???

Right. Rebuildable 403's are a dime-a-dozen (well, between $200-$400, though
I got mine for $60), and the rebuild kits and machine work are the same, if
not less than, the 307's prices. The only reason *not* to build a 403 is
making it compatible with your computer controls and making your
smog-inspectors happy. But you can solve those problems.

p.s. Just for the record, a +.030" 403 ends up being 409 cubic inches.
Visually identical to your 307. Or to your 260. And only you have to know... ;)

>What's the best/cheapest way to get 300+ hp without going to a BB?
>
>
>thanks
>--Dan
>
>

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
- - 1978 Electra Limited Landau Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 02:35:05 -0300
Subject: Re: FRP 

Greg:

On the strength of sounding ignorant - what is FRP?  Is it the fiberglass
containing material?  OK I confess I deleted most of these posts without
REALLY reading them so far (hence the cont'd ignorance).  We just bought a
'66 Chevy 3/4 ton pickup thats got a couple of places I'LL want fixed right
(and have to convince the other half he does too...)

Please refresh the info you've most likely already supplied - and I
apologize - I'll try & pay better attention.

Thanks much ->
Lisa Madsen

Heavy Metal Forever - '67 Delta 88 & '72 Vista Cruiser

Please E-Mail me at-----:  Lisa@hotglass.com

My Web-Page-----:  http://exo.com/~jht/olds/lisa.htm

------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 02:39:06 -0300
Subject: Re: Corel + Olds 

Why not?  They're both high quality items - right?
>
Lisa Madsen

Heavy Metal Forever - '67 Delta 88 & '72 Vista Cruiser

Please E-Mail me at-----:  Lisa@hotglass.com

My Web-Page-----:  http://exo.com/~jht/olds/lisa.htm

------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 02:45:49 -0300
Subject: Re: Vista-Cruiser Question 

Greg:  I have no idea if there is a drain system or not - but mine shows
signs of VERY old silicone having been applied (quite discreetly) around the
window edging where there is a noticeable gap.  My windows dont leak other
than at one spot at the end where there was no silicone put in, and its a
very minor slow run off that doesnt reach the body.  I consider myself lucky
with my windows - no leaks or signs of any previously.

I hope someone has the answer to this - 
>
Lisa Madsen

Heavy Metal Forever - '67 Delta 88 & '72 Vista Cruiser

Please E-Mail me at-----:  Lisa@hotglass.com

My Web-Page-----:  http://exo.com/~jht/olds/lisa.htm

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@sequent1.providence.edu>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 02:45:12 -0300
Subject: Re: What is the potential of the 307?  And how much $$$ ??? 

At 02:23 PM 9/30/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Anybody know how much HP and torque you can get out of a 307?

Just some rough dollar figure guestimates for hp from a 307 (parts are
cumulative, no labor included):

200hp = $500 (exhaust, air cleaner...)
225hp = $1000 (+ cam, valvesprings, Performer intake...)
250hp = $1500 (+ bigger cam, rejet carb, install bigger valves, better
lifters and springs...)
300hp = $2500 (+ port heads, balance, modify ECM, bigger exhaust...)
350hp = $4000 (+ bigger-ported heads, single-plane intake, 
                forged high-compression pistons, steel crank, forget the 
ECM...)
400hp = $5000 (+ lightened rods, radically-ported heads, ultra-light pistons, 
                roller-cam, custom valvetrain...)
500hp = $10000 (+ turbo@15lbs boost, custom EFI intake, block-girdle, alum 
rods)

- -----------
- - Bob Barry
- - 1969 Toronado & 1970 Cutlass Supreme SX (the 455 big-block boys)
- - 1978 Electra Limited Landau Coupe (409 Olds SMALL-block powered!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 03:14:28 -0300
Subject: Re: What is the potential of the 307?  And how much $$$ ??? 

>At 02:23 PM 9/30/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>Anybody know how much HP and torque you can get out of a 307?
>
>Just some rough dollar figure guestimates for hp from a 307 (parts are
>cumulative, no labor included):
>
>200hp = $500 (exhaust, air cleaner...)
>225hp = $1000 (+ cam, valvesprings, Performer intake...)
>250hp = $1500 (+ bigger cam, rejet carb, install bigger valves, better
>lifters and springs...)
>300hp = $2500 (+ port heads, balance, modify ECM, bigger exhaust...)
>350hp = $4000 (+ bigger-ported heads, single-plane intake, 
>                forged high-compression pistons, steel crank, forget the
ECM...)
>400hp = $5000 (+ lightened rods, radically-ported heads, ultra-light pistons, 
>                roller-cam, custom valvetrain...)
>500hp = $10000 (+ turbo@15lbs boost, custom EFI intake, block-girdle, alum
rods)
>
     OK, now for the fun part.  Take an extra $200, and punch through the
same dollar figures for a 403, and what kind of HP will we get?  :)
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: Bill Gochenour <billg@sjuvm.stjohns.edu>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 06:13:09 -0300
Subject: Re: What is the potential of the 307?  And how much $$$ ???

tc75918@hpr169.mdhc.mdc.com wrote:
> 
> Anybody know how much HP and torque you can get out of a 307?
> This talk of the '83 H/O that gets into the 10's with a 307 has
> me wondering.  How much can be done and still keep it streetable
> without resorting to the expense of super or turbo charging?
> 
> I have an '85 Salon with the 307 that I'm planning on replacing
> with a 403, but now I'm wondering if I can still rebuild my 307
> and get the same kind of power.  What about the computer?  Would
> that have to be trashed?  I'm limited to what I can do by smog
> checks.  Though I'm pretty sure I could get away with a 403 since
> it looks the same as the 307, I'd rather keep the 307 just in case
> things get stricter in the future.  You never know, they may start
> checking block id's too.
> 
> Of course, anything you do to a 307, you can do to a 403 as well
> right?  So I'll never get the power out of a 307 that I could from
> a 403 for the same amount of $$$ right???
> 
> What's the best/cheapest way to get 300+ hp without going to a BB?
> 
> thanks
> --Dan

I have an 83 H/O with a that 307 your talking about, with less than 10K 
miles on it. I believe the exact HP rating is 180, but it takes off 
faster than you would think for all stock factory equuipment. Especially 
with the amount of polution junk it's forced to carry around with it. I 
say Oldsmobile built themself a winner.

- -- 
                                                     
Bill !                                         _           _       ___  
                                             /  |        /  |    /  _  \ 
1983 Hurst/Olds 15th Aniversary Edition    /    |      /    |   |_|   | |
1986 442 The Perfect "10"                /  / | |_   /  / | |_      /  / 
1993 Chevrolet Lumina Z-34              |_____   _| |_____   _|   /  /__ 
                                              |_|         |_|   |_______|
                                        
          
      Visit http://yogi-bear.stjohns.edu/~toychest     (updated 9/23)

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 04:21:49 -0300
Subject: Items for sale

Once again:
1-set Sealed Power (TRW, Speed pro, etc.) piston rings, std. bore, moly 
face, standard tension oil rings

1-Zoom clutch disc

2-Centerline rims, selling 1 pair of either 15x7" or 15x8.5", Autodrag 
style, 3.5" backspacing

------------------------------

From: "Paul R. K. Kuromoto" <suntzu@ohana.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 04:23:38 -0300
Subject: Re: Pressure Check

If hte pressure test is enough to damage your cooling system, your 
cooling system needed fixing anyway.  All you pump it up to is the rating 
of the cap, because that's all the pressure the system sees.

------------------------------

From: DESIMONEP@aol.com
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 09:15:04 -0300
Subject: Re: Polygraphite front ends 

In a message dated 96-09-30 11:45:42 EDT, you write:

> Hey gang, I had planned on buying a polygraphite front end kit from PST to 
> install this fall 
>  on my 442.  But a friend said use stock rubber instead, the polygraphite 
> rides too harsh, 
>  like a truck.  First time I'd heard that opinion.  What think ye?  Anybody
_
> regret_ doing 
>  polygraphite?? 
>   
>  Todd Morris 
>  71 442

Well........ since you asked! I put a complete set of shocks, sway bars,
front end kit in polyurethane, from PST on my 85 Camaro Z28. It does work
VERY WELL, and I have done business with PST for many years and have been
satisfied completely with them. BUT... if you want to be comfortable in your
car, drive it a lot, you might consider the rubber. Don't get me wrong, my
PST cars handle great, turn on a dime, but the ride is a bit harsh and the
polyurethane bushings "squeak" a bit and are generally more noisy and
noticeable. But if you want to carve canyons at high speed, go with PST.

I did drive the car cross country (CA to NY and back) and comfort was
acceptable, hard to fall asleep anyway...... feel every bump!!!

Smoothest freeway state (Kentucky)
Most bumps... (New Mexico) Ouch!

Phil De Simone
desimonep@aol.com
1968 Olds Cutlass "S" Convertible

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:51:03 -0300
Subject: Re: Chicago Olds list

David1756@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Andy wrote:
> >(And _do_ bring kids so that my two-year-old will have some company.
> 
> Will do, and then to keep things appropriate, I'll bring a box full of 
> my 3 year old's toy cars, maybe that will keep them busy while we try 
> to talk (and eat and watch etc).

And bring a video camera -- this could be priceless.   ;)

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 12:03:50 -0300
Subject: Re: FRP

James Thingwold wrote:
> 
> Greg:
> 
> On the strength of sounding ignorant - what is FRP?  

You're right.  Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic, commonly called fiberglass.

> ... pickup thats got a couple of places I'LL want fixed right

Right being a relative term: real right would be new metal, right would 
be FRP, not right would be bondo (IMHO).

Anybody has a digest to send Lisa?  If not, let me know and I'll try to 
put together a synopsis.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Email <oldstoro@share1.dsac.dla.mil>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 10:09:10 -0300
Subject: Olds 98 for sale

FYI

I Found the following in the Oct issue of Lets Go Cruisin Newsletter.

	1974 Olds 98
	All Original Full Power
	Very Clean Rocket 455 CID Engine
	Runs & looks Great $2500
	(614) 799-2042 (Central Ohio area)

This is all I know about it. I have not seen the Olds or spoken to the owner.
- -- 
  |
 ---
| | |     TORO			TORO			TORO
| | | Ray Ford, Columbus Ohio, OCA Number 026719, oldstoro@dsac.dla.mil      
|/|\| 1992 Toronado Trofeo, Ah to TORO or not to TORO that is NOT the question
| | |    
 ---
  |

------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 10:34:30 -0300
Subject: Re: The Goat Farmer

Beware of the Goat Farmer from Oklahoma, he has led many a herd astray. Many 
would love to cook the goat farmer's goat. There are some who would start by 
slitting his throat.

------------------------------

From: Esko.Ilola@Tele.telebox.fi
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 10:33:23 -0300
Subject: Thanks to Travis

Item Subject: Sanoman teksti
This list has proven my suspects about there being many nice people
around the globe to be true.

Travis has sent the ignition switch today (within 24 hours).

Most pleasing.

We are preparing a surprise for him here in finland with my wife Anneli.

And it is not a bomb :).

Once more: "Thank You Travis (TYT)"

**********************************************
* Esko Ilola                                 *
* Email esko.ilola@tele.telebox.fi           *
* X400  G=esko S=ilola O=tele A=mailnet C=fi *
* Tel.  +358 2040 3439                       *
* Mail  Ukonkivenpolku 7B5                   *
*       01610 VANTAA                         *
*       FINLAND                              *
**********************************************
* Oldsmobile Ninety Eight 1964               *
*            Holiday Sports Sedan (4D HT)    *
**********************************************

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 09:46:25 -0300
Subject: Re: Diagnostics 

>     Sure, talk dirty to me! :)  I know Ford's electronics were rather
>impressive in the early 90's.

'90's? Try _80's_.  :-(

>It was
>kinda fun freerevving that 5 Liter to start the test.  "Says right 
>there: Floor it!"  (I'm pretty sure that was the test requiring the 
>brief WOT)

Exactly. And if you don't respond in time, you get Code 77, which 
according to the manual means, "BZZZZT! Thanks for playing!" (I may 
be paraphrasing that a bit.)

>The difference here (besides Ford vs. real cars  tho' --gotta throw
>that in!-- )  is that the EEC-IV required to be in diagnosis for the
>misfire test to occur.

Right. If I remember right, it basically cuts power to the cylinders
one plug at a time, and looks to see if the RPMs drop. If they don't,
there's a problem in that cylinder. At the end of the test, the number
of the offending cylinder is displayed. I forget what it does if there
are multiple bad cylinders, maybe list the numbers in order or something.
The book's on my shelf but I can't be bothered to riffle through it...

>If you forget to tighten the gas cap, (on some [GM]
>models) the Malfunction Indicator Lamp comes on to tell you there's a
>problem!  Almost as bad as a wife to say "hey dummy, you forgot your gas
>cap!"  Lots of fun!

I've often thought that on cars with alphanumeric displays, they could
at least show the text translation of the fault codes, to save having
to look the things up in the manual. I know the diagnosis goes beyond
simply looking up the code numbers, but that _is_ the first step...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 09:55:10 -0300
Subject: Re: Chicago Olds list 

>> >(And _do_ bring kids so that my two-year-old will have some company.
>> 
>> Will do, and then to keep things appropriate, I'll bring a box full of 
>> my 3 year old's toy cars, maybe that will keep them busy while we try 
>> to talk (and eat and watch etc).
>
>And bring a video camera -- this could be priceless.   ;)

I'll bring a 35mm of some sort. I've recently discovered a flatbed
scanner in the office hooked up to a PC in an abandoned cubicle.
If I can get the thing up and running, I may not have to keep sending
stuff to Bryce for scanning.  :-)

And while we're on this subject: Let's get this thing confirmed,
because I haven't seen a message declaring this as final in any
way (no offense, David, if that's not the case; I've been a little
inundated recently), so here goes:

DATE: SUNDAY, OCTOBER 6th

TIME: NOON

PLACE: FUDDRUCKER'S, West Golf Road in Schaumburg, IL, west of Rt. 53.
       More detailed directions are very welcome.

ACTIVITIES: Well, the Bears game will be on. I tentatively plan to show
up with Junior and the spouse, we'll have burgers, Junior will have some
sort of Junior-type menu item, of which he will eat only the fries and
the rest goes into a doggie bag for which, if we don't forget to take it
home with us, he will not eat later on, and after lunch and chatting we
will examine cars in the parking lot. Perhaps I can _borrow_ someone's
Olds to bring with! If someone out there has a Schaumburg phone book, we
might even want to call Fuddruckers...? Make sure there's no violent
objection to a small group of nice cars in their parking lot...?

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 14:31:21 -0300
Subject: Tri-Power: Update

Latest detail from Scott, the owner:

Intake manifold has the casting number: 571145
Setup has mechanical linkage (but could be aftermarket)
Is in good shape and apparently complete
(but doesn't have the air-cleaners so no clue here)   :(

Anybody?

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: "bansell" <bansell@xl.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 07:45:41 -0300
Subject: 84' HURST PICTURES? 

     DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE I CAN FIND PICTURES (JPEG,GIF'S) 
     OF AN 84' HURST.. IF ANYONE KNOWS COULD YOU PLEASE WRITE
     ME BACK AT THIS ADDRESS.. THANKS IN ADVANCE!
                                   -BILL ANSELL
     bansell@xl.com

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 10:39:17 -0300
Subject: Re: a Chrysler blue Olds engine? 

>>> If you're not showing it, I think all of the Olds fans that I know
>>> would be extrememly happy that you at least _tried_ to match the 
>>> color rather than paint it that d*mn orange. . .
>>
>>I have found that for the closest color match Regular Krylon metalic
>>blue is a very close match

I'm confused; what shade of blue are we talking about? My '82 V6
(actually a Buick engine, but...) was painted a light-to-medium
blue, and when I needed to paint the new water pump to match, the
local Trak Auto had the correct Olds paint just sitting on the shelf.
The color match was dead-nuts perfect. Would this be a different
shade of blue than on earlier cars?

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Chris Blumenstein <bluffin@netins.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 14:18:04 -0300
Subject: Non-Olds related

Does anyone know if a 67 windshield from a Chevelle will fit a 66 
Chevelle?  Is there a mailing list like this for Chevy?
TIA

------------------------------

From: "Roger M. Borlase" <BORLASE@gordonc.edu>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 12:34:29 -0300
Subject: rear end ratio 

Hi.

Today I got an oil change and while I had the car on the lift, I decided to 
get the rear end ratio checked out.  I put the car the car in neutral and spun 
a tire once.  The driveshaft went around about 1.4 times.  Would this mean 
that I have a 2.73 : 1 rear end?  

I'm also wondering if the marginal difference in circumference between OEM 
bias tires and new radials are altering the original gearing.  The stock tires 
were H78-14 and I'm now using 215/75 r 14.

Thanks for any input.

Roger Borlase
'72 Cutlass Cruiser
http://www.cs.gordonc.edu/~borlase

------------------------------

From: Blaine Sanders 5483 <BLAINES@strata3d.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 13:05:22 -0300
Subject: Re: FRP -Reply 

Lisa,

Listen to Mike... he's got it right.  Also, If you're not going to do the work
yourself, make sure you know your body man.  Ask around and shop
around.  The cheapest shop will most likely be the guys who fill big dents
with Plastic Filler and don't tell you about it.  Make sure your body man
does quality work with a minimal amount of filler.  

- -BS

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 13:46:30 -0300
Subject: Re: What is the potential of the 307?  And how much $$$ ???

>I have an 83 H/O with a that 307 your talking about, with less than 10K 
>miles on it. I believe the exact HP rating is 180, but it takes off 
>faster than you would think for all stock factory equuipment. Especially 
>with the amount of polution junk it's forced to carry around with it. I 
>say Oldsmobile built themself a winner.

I agree with your statement. Those cars do take off rather nice. I just
would like to know what Olds was thinking in the mid to late 80's with
regard to performance. They should have made the H/O and 442's better
equipped to compete with the Buick GN's. 
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com) f-body list since: 5/95
88 Camaro Iroc-Z/28 CFI 305/TH-350....daily driver
81 Camaro 229V6/3spd man....................don't know yet
80 Olds 4-4-2 W-30  350/TH350................show car
75 Hurst/Olds W-25 350/TH350................restoration project

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 17:01:10 -0300
Subject: Re: FRP -Reply

Blaine Sanders 5483 wrote:
> 
> Listen to Mike... he's got it right.  

Purely by accident, I'm sure...

> Make sure your body man does quality work with a minimal amount of 
> filler.

You betcha.  If possible, I tell him you want to see the repairs before 
ANY primer or paint is applied.  They prolly won't like that tho...

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Blaine Sanders 5483 <BLAINES@strata3d.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 14:38:21 -0300
Subject: Re: FRP -Reply -Reply 

>You betcha.  If possible, I tell him you want to see the repairs before 
>ANY primer or paint is applied.  They prolly won't like that tho...

Ohh!  Excellent point! (surely not accidental this time <g>)  Who gives a
turd if they don't like it.  If they come up with some lame excuse why you
can't, it's prolly cuz they got something to hide.  You have every right to
see what you're paying all those big $'s for.

- -Blaine

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #317
********************************
 
