To:	oldsmobile-digest @ chebucto.ns.ca@INTERNET1
cc:	 
From:	oldsmobile-digest-owner @ chebucto.ns.ca@INTERNET1 @ ABTLAB
Date:	11/22/96 01:31:42 PM
Subject:	oldsmobile-digest V1 #377


oldsmobile-digest         Friday, 22 November 1996      Volume 01 :
Number 377


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@sequent1.providence.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 02:12:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Spare parts/won't start

At 12:16 AM 11/22/96 -0500, you wrote:
>I remember you asking for suggestions about putting your car up for the
>winter. What kinds of things did you do? I haven't driven my car or
even >started it for that matter in about 6 weeks.

The biggest enemy of a car sitting for a long (more than a month, but
less than a few years) period of time is moisture. You may flat-spot an
older set of bias-ply tires as well (otherwise, jackstands are not
necessary). There are two things affected by moisture: your engine and
your interior.

For your engine, simply cover up the openings. On a '68, the only
openings to the engine are the air cleaner inlet and the exhaust pipe.
On earlier cars you had the breather tube, but with the PCV system the
crankcase is closed. On a car I stored, I used a baggie held over the
opening with a rubber band. The only other place to beware of corrosion
is on the points in the distributor. You can always remove them and keep
them safe inside, or simply replace them if they are corroded in the
spring.

Of course, make sure the coolant has at least 50% antifreeze; you'd have
cracked your block already, though, if it wasn't.

I can't think of how to keep moisture from building up and affecting
your interior, apart from airing it out when possible.

You can cover the car with an opaque plastic cover, and this can be kept
off the paint surface with some 1x2's laid across the car, with some
foam between them and the car. Or you can splurge for a genuine fitted
waterproof cover. If your paint isn't new, however, I'd just recommend
laying a tarp right on the car, and tucking it in all around so it
doesn't blow away in a Nor'easter.

>The last time I tried to start
>it, I had trouble getting it to run. I had to spray some starter fluid
in >the carb and then jump in to turn it over. It would start to run,but
then >died after the fluid ran out. If I pull the throttle and look in
the carb I

Would it die when you released the ignition key from the start position?
Then it would be your resistor wire to the distributor. If it ran at all
after you released the key, then it is a fuel supply problem, quite
possibly a fuel pump, clogged filter or low float level (i.e. you're
running out of gas).
_______________________________________________________ Dr. Robert Barry
MailTo:RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu Theology Dept, Providence College,
Providence, RI 02918

------------------------------

From: GABowles@aol.com
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 02:45:44 -0400
Subject: Re: VIN vs. Cowl Tag

I have a 68 442 and almost did not buy the car because I thought
something funny was going on with the vin and cowl tag not matching.  I
have a 70 w30 car and it indicates that the car is a 4487 in both
locations.  After looking at 3 other 68 442's-- all had the same
variance yours and mine have--I bought the 68 knowing that it was
alright.  The title to my car lists the car model as 442.  Yes, the
title does match the vin number.  It seems that olds just made them that
way.

Hope this helps,

Greg Bowles

------------------------------

From: Chuck Rowe <badgeman@tcac.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 02:52:48 -0400
Subject: Re: New mechanic or new alternator...was Re: Altenator noise

>Question: where is AC current required in a car?  2nd as a an adjunct
to the >first part, where is it required, I mean required for operation,
not merely >convenient?  3rd where is it convenient? > >Honestly I can
think of anywhere! > >The Wiz Wonders

I suppose there is not place where AC is absolutely REQUIRED, except in
the ignition coil, since cars had generators longer than they've had
alternators. Still, there is less line loss with AC than DC which means
that the alternator can be smaller than a generator, which is one place
size and weight can be conserved.

------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 02:50:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Rain

Ah yes, California rain.  I go through my annual "where did these
idiot-moron puddle plowers learn to drive" - cuss & curse-fest -
definitely not in a DRUM BRAKE CAR!!  Drying out the brakes was one of
the original things my Dad taught me in my ol' 63 Nova.  I take the '3
car length' distance between me & the other guy seriously - 4300 lbs. of
American Steel in need of brakes again does NOT stop on a dime (well
maybe it would starting at 500 yards!).


I'd hate to see these people driving on ice.  Jeez.


Well, maybe it'd clear out some of the bozos - perhaps its not a bad
idea after all (nahhh, they'd hit MY car).




Lisa Madsen


<color><param>8080,0000,8080</param>Heavy Metal Forever - '67 Delta 88 &
'72 Vista Cruiser

</color>

Please E-Mail me at-----:
<bold><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>Lisa@hotglass.com

</color></bold>

My Web-Page-----:
<bold><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>http://exo.com/~jht/olds/</col
or></bold>

------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 02:50:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Vikings

Cliff - have you tried contacting the  National Antique Olds Club?  A
1930 is a bit before most of our times.




Lisa Madsen


<color><param>8080,0000,8080</param>Heavy Metal Forever - '67 Delta 88 &
'72 Vista Cruiser

</color>

Please E-Mail me at-----:
<bold><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>Lisa@hotglass.com

</color></bold>

My Web-Page-----:
<bold><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>http://exo.com/~jht/olds/</col
or></bold>

------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 02:50:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Counting Pennies

I did just that Greg with my '67 convertible - added up all my receipts
when I sold it.  At the $10,000 I had in it, it depressed me I sure as
he** wasn t getting that back out - but - then again - I was content I'd
put everything I'd wanted in her as we went along.


Now for the Chevelle we dumped $30,000 in over 7 years and never made
faster than Super Gas, it made me all the happier it was going out the
door!!! For $12k cash back in 1981.


Ah well, I still think they're worth it.




Lisa Madsen


<color><param>8080,0000,8080</param>Heavy Metal Forever - '67 Delta 88 &
'72 Vista Cruiser

</color>

Please E-Mail me at-----:
<bold><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>Lisa@hotglass.com

</color></bold>

My Web-Page-----:
<bold><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>http://exo.com/~jht/olds/</col
or></bold>

------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 02:51:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Re[2]: GM Trivia

No offense but all this game show trivia stuff is a little overbearing.
I don't particularly like guessing games - oh Wiz-one - and maybe other
do, but could they answer you directly or something so we're not all
wasting time re-reading through 50 posts on your subjects?


My .01 cents worth (I cant guess OR add higher than that.....)



Lisa Madsen


<color><param>8080,0000,8080</param>Heavy Metal Forever - '67 Delta 88 &
'72 Vista Cruiser

</color>

Please E-Mail me at-----:
<bold><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>Lisa@hotglass.com

</color></bold>

My Web-Page-----:
<bold><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>http://exo.com/~jht/olds/</col
or></bold>

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 03:15:15 -0400
Subject: Re: New mechanic or new alternator...was Re: Altenator noise

At 02:52 AM 11/22/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>Question: where is AC current required in a car?  2nd as a an adjunct
to the >>first part, where is it required, I mean required for
operation, not merely >>convenient?  3rd where is it convenient? >>
>>Honestly I can think of anywhere! >> >>The Wiz Wonders > >I suppose
there is not place where AC is absolutely REQUIRED, except in the
>ignition coil, since cars had generators longer than they've had
>alternators. Still, there is less line loss with AC than DC which means
that >the alternator can be smaller than a generator, which is one place
size and >weight can be conserved. > > I don't think so.  I believe the
coil works on DC, I really do!

The Wiz still Wonders

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 03:24:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Vikings

At 02:50 AM 11/22/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Cliff - have you tried contacting the  National Antique Olds Club?  A
1930 is a bit before most of our times. > > > >Lisa Madsen > >Heavy
Metal Forever - '67 Delta 88 & '72 Vista Cruiser > >Please E-Mail me
at-----:  Lisa@hotglass.com > >My Web-Page-----:
http://exo.com/~jht/olds/ > I belong to both of the not quite so old
Olds clubs.  I don't have a curved dash; and a '30 goes way back before
my time too.  Except my father bought me a 1930 Chevrolet Club Sedan
when I was about 14 y.o. and had be take it all apart (at least
mechanically) and put it back together.  I drove that car for several
years.  Eventually I bought a used F**d Econoline right after college,
and then my first new car was a 1968 Corvette, 390hp 427, which I still
drop in on once in a while (I sold it to a friend)(and yes he's still my
friend).

I worked and saved every penny I ever earned and retired in '87, to play
with my cars; which I do. Maybe not the smartest thing to do, but my
father insisted.

Cliff Feiler

P.S. The '30 advisor in the Olds club knows the L30, and not the Viking.
I didn't think to try the '29 man, which I will do tomorrow.  And my
main problem would be solved with a Viking body parts book.  thanks for
the tips anyway.

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 03:37:45 -0400
Subject: 455 Parts

Earlier this evening I was offered a pair of 455 heads.  They are a G
and a GA with the same casting number.  I told the owner I would accept
them, after my engine builder machine shops proves their worth for
rebuilding.  I assume from the same casting numbers that these heads
might be the same, but then the casting number has nothing to do with
the machining.  Are these heads the same?  Is there a best head for a
455, I'm going to using a F block?

Cliff Feiler
455 curious

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 05:55:05 -0400
Subject: Re: New mechanic or new alternator...was Re: Altenator noise

>At 02:52 AM 11/22/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>>Question: where is AC current required in a car?

The most common place you'll find a true alternating current in an auto
is in the alternator.  The A/C alternators are more compact and
efficient than the DC generators were.  We could probably go into really
deep detail as to why AC is more controllable and efficient for a
charging system, but I'm not quite up to that tonight...  :)
     As for the coil, they run on a DC voltage.  However, they are, in a
sense, a reverse voltage generator (I'll explain...)  The secondary side
of the ignition system typically produces anywhere from 30 to 60 KV,
more or less depending on the system.  What many don't know is that this
is a ~negative~ voltage it is producing.  The block (and ground) gets
hit with a 60KV that returns through the plug wires.  It has something
to do with the way the spark jumps the plug gap.  It's been quite a
while since I studied that theory, and since it's almost 3:00 AM (I just
got off work...) and I'm really tired, I'm not sure how much justice I'm
really doing to this concept.  I do distinctly remember that the spark
system was, in essence, backwards, compared to most automotive
electrical theories.  If anyone has more on this subjuct, please, add to
this.  I'm confusing myself with it right now, but next chance I get,
I'll see what I can dig up about the whole thing.
     Back to the AC thing.  There is one more system that everyone is
likely overlooking that is convenient, required for operation, ~and~ in
my opinion, a required convenience:  Speakers.  A direct current to a
speaker will shove it in one direction, and it stays there.  In order to
produce sound, the current needs to reverse, and suck the speaker cone
back in, and alternate in that manner, such as to produce a frequency.
Very definately a must-be AC system...
     Enuf for now.  It's way past my bedtime, so I'll sign off with
that:)

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: Blair Rendell <brendell@pi.pro.ec>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:49:18 -0400
Subject: 6 million$ for a 69 VC!!??

HI!
 Well I am now the proud owner of a 69 Vista Cruiser....a former US
Embassy car..here in Quito, Ecuador. Car is in fair condition..NO
rust...and original paint. Its got that fake wood on lower part of
car..sticker..it seems to be. Where can I get that? Or anyone got any
ideas of what else to put there? Two-tone paint job maybe? I need wheel
opening mouldings as well..are they available anywhere? Are the 69
headlite surrounds (brushed aluminum) the same as what other years??
1970..maybe?
  Ummm oh yeah..thats 6 million SUCRES...1750$ US a bit of inflation
here.
  Blair Rendell
  71 442 W30 Convert. M-22 (in Canada)
  69 Vista Cruiser (Quito, Ecuador)

------------------------------

From: "JOHN L. BERENYI" <berenyi@texas.dseg.ti.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:18:54 -0400
Subject: FS: Mondello Cam

This is a 45 deg lifter bank angle cam. Great street cam in the box.
Paid $105 sell for $75 or BO.  I have grinding specs if interested.
I decided to go 2 barrel instead.


Email me direct at: berenyi@texas.dseg.ti.com


John

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:29:47 -0400
Subject: Re: New mechanic or new alternator...was Re: Altenator noise

C.R.F. wrote:
>
> Hum!  How did you get this reply back so fast, were you waiting for
it?

Seems like you both are.

> Question: where is AC current required in a car?

Knowing that I'll get some argument from those that will use this an an
excuse to redesign the entire automibile then say "See!" (and ignoring
Charley's comment about speakers for the moment), the answer is: NO
WHERE.  Car are DC systems; AC is not REQUIRED anywhere.

> 2nd as a an adjunct to the first part, where is it required, I mean
> required for operation, not merely convenient?

I assume you are referring to the ignition coil/points.  This isn't a
fair question as this circuit is a pulse forming/generation circuit.
While the current does vary (with engine speed), calling this AC is
streching the use of the term pretty far -- AC and DC are generally
used to refer to power SOURCES.

3rd where is it convenient?

On the dashboard so I can plug in my coffee pot, laptop, and lava lamp.

> Honestly I can think of anywhere!

I'm sure you can.

As far as the altenator goes, yes, it produces AC -- internally!  Since
it also includes diodes to rectify the AC, the output of the altenator
is DC not AC.  So referring to an altenator as a AC device ain't
exactly right either.  It puts out DC just like an generator.

The reason for the internal AC in the altenator rather than DC has
little to do with the ease of transmission or with line losses.  AC is
easier to control (ie regulate) than DC.  In altenators, the field
voltage is adjusted to regulate the output.  In generators, we simply
wasted the extra juice with those clunky old regulators.

> The Wiz Wonders

Me too.   ;)

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Katana72@aol.com
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:31:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Weatherstrips, Rubber Products, etc

SoffSeal seems to be pretty good. I don't know their ph number off hand,
buit they have advertisements in Hot Rod Magazine.

Katana72

------------------------------

From: zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:38:53 -0400
Subject: Re: My little olds expense list

Well, actually, I went SOMEWHERE ELSE (more reputable) to get the second
 one.  The good one was about 45 to 60 miles away from my house, so I
had decided to rent one at the local small-town rental place.  Let this
be a lesson to you-all!!  YOu can learn from  MY mistakes.

Clayton Pierce

On Thu, 21 Nov 1996, Dave Paulison wrote:

> At 12:33 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote:
> >Rented 1st Cherry Picker		$ 30
> >(defective, but I didn't know)
> >
> >motor & tranny fell on me!
>
> >Rented 2nd Cherry Picker 		$ 20
>
> The first hoist was defective, the engine fell, and they made you pay
to > rent the second one?  Bummer... > -- > Dave Paulison
1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme > Melbourne, Florida             1993
Mitsubishi Eclipse GS > dpauliso@gate.net > > >

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:37:40 -0400
Subject: Re: 6 million$ for a 69 VC!!??

Blair Rendell wrote:
>
> Well I am now the proud owner of a 69 Vista Cruiser....a former US
> Embassy car..here in Quito, Ecuador.

Geez, Blair, only YOU could find a VC in Ecuador.  6 million sucres --
such a deal.  Congratulations.  BTW, Any Toronados lying around the
countryside?

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Steve Ochs <76057.1404@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:56:08 -0400
Subject: GM Transmission Trivia

Paul has it right.  Hydra-Matic started in 1939 as the Detroit
Transmission Division to supply the world's first fully automatic
transmission for 471 1940 Oldsmobiles.  (Note: the model year begins in
July of the year before).
     Hydra-Matic moved to the Willow Run (Ypsilanti) Bomber plant in
1953 after a devastating fire destroyed the original plant in Detroit.
(We still have 30mm films of the Detroit fire at the plant here in
Parma.)  Hydra-Matic still maintains its headquarters and a majority of
transmission production at Willow Run.

Steve Ochs - Engineer - GM Powertrain - Transmission Division
(4T60/65-E) 1987 Olds 442 1976 Cutlass 'S'

------------------------------

From: Steve Ochs <76057.1404@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:56:09 -0400
Subject: Weatherstrips

Howard,
     I just replaced the weatherstripping on my T-tops on my '87 442
last year. I purchased them at the dealer and they were about $50 a
side.  I have not had eny experience with aftermarket but the original
ones fit just perfect.  I also do not have any leaks anymore (this
vehicle leaked since the day it was new.) Good Luck

Steve Ochs - Engineer - GM Powertrain - Transmission Division
(4T60/65-E) Cleveland, Ohio (T-tops when I am extremely lucky with the
weather) 1987 Olds 442 1976 Cutlass 'S'

------------------------------

From: Steve Ochs <76057.1404@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:56:15 -0400
Subject: 200-4R Transmission

Mark,
     Yes, I am an Electrical Engineer by degree but my job
responsibility also includes process engineering and working with
product engineering on transmission design.  I do not believe that the
engine mods that you made could have torn up the transmission on their
own.  There is only so much you can do with the chip.  At WOT the
carburetor is running straight mechanical (no computer control except
the mixture control solenoid is at full rich).  The only effect of the
chip is timing.  Part throttle would be mixture and timing, but I can't
imagine that affecting transmission.  Horsepower increase is probably no
more than 30 which is well within the durability of a stock 200-4R.
     What probably killed the original  tranny was shift quality.  The
stock pump and pump pressure is too low for hard shifts.  Note: the '86
and prior 200-4Rs shifted fairly hard stock.  The 1987 units were
recalibrated and have a soft 1-2 shift at WOT.  Also, the stator support
is not strong enough for hard shifts.  The big killer is not th 1-2
shift but the 2-3 shift.   A real hard 2-3 shift at full throttle will
break some internals in the tranny.  The goal is a firm quick shift but
not a rapid hard neck breaking shift.  I modified my 200-4R for a
quicker 1-2 shift.  It now shifts quick and firm (will chirp both rear
tires) but it is not a harsh shift.  Note that high performance rebuilt
200-4Rs have hardened stator supports and other features to eliminate
this problem.
     Your replacement tranny was most likely trashed by dirt and debris
in the system.  You said the converter was replaced but what most people
miss is the transmission cooler in the radiator or an auxiliary one.  If
those are not flushed THOROUGHLY, the debris from the previous
transmission failure WILL destroy the next transmission in short order.
The majority of the warranty repeat failures that we see is debris from
a re-used converter or improperly flushing the cooler.  This is
witnessed by a failure rate in dealer replaced transmission of 3 times
the rate of factory installed tranmissions.  Thsi rate is the same for
both factory new transmissions and factory rebuilt transmissions.
     Good luck with the transmission in the future.  A rebuilt 200-4R
with the race hardened parts and a clean system should more than handle
anything that you could do to the 307 including nitrous.

P.S. I want to modify the timing curve and converter lockup speed on my
'87 but I haven't been able to procure the code table for the prom.  Do
you have it and can I get it or buy it from you.  Or, could you make me
a prom with changes. Thanks a lot.

Steve Ochs - Engineer - GM Powertrain - Transmission Division
(4T60/65-E) 1987 Olds 442 1976 Cutlass 'S'



------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:17:22 -0400
Subject: Barnstormers (WAS Re: Counting Pennies)

Greg B sez:
> I always get a charge out of the folks I encounter who say they've
found a > car in a barn somewhere after being stored for 20 or 30 years,
maybe > invest in a tank of gas, a change of oil or a battery, and then
say they > have a working car. It may technically be running, but I sure
wouldn't > want to drive it! I never seem to find these beasts.

I had heard all those "urban legends" too -- like the ol' lady with her
dead son's old Ch*vy in the barn, turns out to be '53 Vette which
someone ends up buying for a $100 -- and I was always skeptical, but I
liked the idea that it'd be possible to find something like that...

Well, Big Red wasn't in a barn for 20 - 30 years, but she *was* in a
suburban garage for 4 :).  I got a chance to go see her when a co-worker
complained that he had to get rid of his 'old convertible' because his
wife wanted to park their new Chr*sl*r Mini-Van in the garage.  Wasn't
advertised or nuthin'.  He just charged the battery the night before so
I could check it out.  I drove it around the neighborhood, returned and
gave him $1500 before he could change his mind :)

Showed up the next day with a plate, and drove it home.  Tune-up, oil
change, an old battery I had, and an exhaust from the exhaust manifolds
back and I was in business :)

The rest, as they say, is history...

Tim Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'89 Cadillac Fleetwood, a.k.a. 'Der KinderWagen'
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:41:31 -0400
Subject: Re: New mechanic or new alternator...was Re: Altenator noise

The Wiz wonders:

> I don't think so.  I believe the coil works on DC, I really do!

You are correct. It is true that a coil does not produce electricity
on its secondary windings while a direct, unchanging voltage is applied;
the voltage on the secondary only appears during a *change* in voltage.

So how to get those 20Kv from a 6 or 12v system?

That li'l condenser in your distributor.  I'll explain it for mechanical
point systems, but it's similar for breakerless...


While the poiints are closed, an electrical circuit is completed,
allowing 12v DC to charge up the condensor.  The 12v also happens to be
applied to the coil, but because it's DC there is no voltage change, so
no current flows through the seconsary windings.

When the points open, the contact is broken.  The condensor then
discharges itself through the coil.  The impedance of the coil is ample
to allow enough time for the discharge to produce a voltage sweep from
12 to 0V in the coil ( time(sec) = ohms * farads )... causing current
flow in the secondary windings, at the much higher voltages need for
crossing the gap at the spark plug (this voltage change is accomplished
through the # of windingson the primary side .vs. the secondary side....
the side with more gets the higher voltage, and it's directly
proportional).

Anyways, that's sort of how it works... glad to see my Circuit Theory II
class have some applicability today! :)



Tim Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'89 Cadillac Fleetwood, a.k.a. 'Der KinderWagen'
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:30:11 -0400
Subject: Today's Washington Post


          I opened my copy of the Post this morning to find a very
          bothersome passage.  Let me first explain (for those outside
          the DC area) that Bob Levey is a regular columnist for the
          Post (surprisingly, his column is called "Bob Levey's
          Washington" ;-)), and he is usually a witty, funny, fair
          guy.  Today's column dealt with the DC area's apparent
          diminished love affair with sport utility vehicles (well, it
          was more like Bob Levey's diminished love affair with SUVs).
          The following is a quote:

          "SUVs have become so faddish that even Oldsmobile
          (Oldsmobile?) has a sport-utility model.  You never knew
          dowdiness and flashiness could coexist, did you?  Olds
          thinks they can."

          Dowdiness??!!

          OK, Levey has recently announced that he is going on-line,
          however I don't have his email address.  If it has been
          activated, it can probably be found at the Washington Post's
          web page (www.washingtonpost.com).  Keep in mind that this
          guy is a columnist in a major metropolitan newspaper, so I
          would advise against the usual incoherent flames (I can just
          see the passage "...received thousands of threatening email
          messages from testosterone-charged adolescents..." appearing
          in the Post).  Make the comments fair, rational, and polite.
          Those of you who don't pay much attention to spelling or
          punctuation would be advised to turn your spellchecker back
          on.

          Note to Heidi:

          Whoever is responsible in the division for press relations
          should be taken out and shot.  Unfortunately, this guy
          (Levey) probably represents the general public's impression
          of Olds.  I don't think that anyone outside those who read
          National Dragster know about Oldsmobile's impressive win
          record in NHRA competition.  Not only has Warren Johnson
          dominated Pro Stock, but Olds has won NHRA's manufacturer's
          cup for something like the last eight years in a row, a
          better record than even Chevy!  (This is awarded to the
          manufacturer with the most wins in the stock-bodied classes
          by current model year cars).  Nor have Oldsmobile's recent
          wins in road and endurance racing been publicized.

          I suggest that since Levey is in the market for a
          replacement for his SUV, set him up with a test drive of a
          new Aurora.  Make sure he has an invite to the 1997 Detroit
          Auto Show, where the Aurora-powered Shelby will be unveiled.
          Have him cover the 100th Anniversary celebration.  Tell him
          what a 442 is...er, was.

          It's unfortunate that I believe that his opinion really does
          represent that of the general populace.

          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: Todd Morris <tmorris@bt1dc18e.bet.ibm.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:39:16 -0400
Subject: Re: 455 Parts


G heads are from a 1971 car, GA are from 1972.  I think they're
identical, in terms of volume and compression they produce.  I've also
heard that with some decent porting they can produce flow rates every
bit as good as C heads.  C heads are generally considered to be the
best big block Olds heads, although as I say, you can apparently turn
any Olds head into a great head with porting......



>Earlier this evening I was offered a pair of 455 heads.  They are a G
and a >GA with the same casting number.  I told the owner I would
accept them, >after my engine builder machine shops proves their worth
for rebuilding.  I >assume from the same casting numbers that these
heads might be the same, but >then the casting number has nothing to do
with the machining.  Are these >heads the same?  Is there a best head
for a 455, I'm going to using a F block?

Todd Morris
71 442

------------------------------

From: bryceman@442.com (Bryceman)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:58:03 -0400
Subject: Definitely Get This!

I was at a local news stand last night and was surprised to find Linda
Vaughn standing in front of a '75 Hurst/Olds on the cover of Rod Action
& Street Machines magazine (December). I have never seen this magazine
before.

Short but sweet article tells of Linda and her 2 Hurst/Olds vehicles a
'75 and a '79. Great pictures of her and the cars. Unfortunately there
are no old photos of her, these are all current. Still cool though.

           Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Oldsmobiles
'66 Dynamic 88 B07 Apprehender  '65 442   '72 Cutlass Convertible
            Email: bryceman@442.com  URL: www.442.com

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:58:52 -0400
Subject: Sucres?? (WAS Re: 6 million$ for a 69 VC!!??)

> Blair Rendell wrote:
> >
> > Well I am now the proud owner of a 69 Vista Cruiser....a former US
> > Embassy car..here in Quito, Ecuador.
>
> Geez, Blair, only YOU could find a VC in Ecuador.  6 million sucres --
 > such a deal.

The unit of currency in Ecuador is... the sugar cube?!?
Brings a whole new meaning to the term 'A Sweet Deal' :)



Tim (Ducking the Rotten Tomatoes) Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'89 Cadillac Fleetwood, a.k.a. 'Der KinderWagen'
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: turley@symplex.com (Mike Turley)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:57:25 -0400
Subject: Toro Help, Was: [Toro] 66 FOR SALE!]

>
> Very solid. Has been in a coma in a colorado barn half it's life.
> 51,000 original miles. Much restoration potential or excellent
> driver as is.
> Power windows, steering, brakes
> Tinted glass
> Air
> reply direct to mdl@umich.edu or call:
> 313-483-8133
>

Toro Buffs,

Turns out this car is close enough to look at during lunch today, so I
made an appointment.

Tell me what to watch out for.  Need responses before 11:30 EST.

I'll post a report this afternoon.

Thanks,
Mike Turley        '66 442  (that would enjoy '66 Toro as company!)
turley@symplex.com

------------------------------

From: "Chris Sparks (Mr. Ada)" <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:02:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Altenator noise

Mike Frederick wrote:

> Your mechanic is either:
>
> 1) A real jokester.

Has been known to be this.

> 2) A real dork.

No his son is.

> 3) Looking for a quick buck.

He is pretty cheap compared to others.

> By a "whine" do you mean a mechanical whine that you hear outside the
car > or one that you can hear throught the radio?  A mechanical whine
would > probably be due to bearings or some internal rotating part.  A
whine in > the radio is probably caused by poor filtering, poor
connections, funky > regulator, etc.

He did tell me that the bearings maybe going out but not to worry about
it
until it is actually bad (not charging, whatever).  In other words turn
up
the radio!

> And while we're on the subject, what SB does he know about that has a
> part time altenator?  (It's belt driven -- no clutch.  They all run
all > the time.)

Well their might be a miscommunication problem on my part.  Since I am
not
mechanically inclined and have MPD (Male Patterned Deafness IOW I hear
what
I want to hear), he may have said that the size of my engine might put
more
strain on the altenator.  I don't remember :-(

> Or an incorrect mechanic.

I have been going to my mechanic for 15 years.  He is very reasonable
with
his fees and does a lot of freebees (not the swarm'n kind :-)

Thanks
Chris Sparks

------------------------------

From: zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:12:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Today's Washington Post

Oh BTW, this is not a flame, just a statement of opinion!  I don't DO
flames (unless somebody really deserves it !!  :-)

On Fri, 22 Nov 1996 JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com wrote:
>           Dowdiness??!!
When was the last time you were in an Olds showroom?  You can't even buy
 a quad 4 anymore.  I could see my Grandmother driving a '9X
Oldsmobile, I couldn't see myself driving it (except for one of the
quad 4's, I've driven them before, and they have pretty good
acceleration etc.).

>           Whoever is responsible in the division for press relations
>           should be taken out and shot.  Unfortunately, this guy
Certainly, along with part of the design team!  e.g. which is which, a
Buick, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, or Chevy?  They all look the same!

>           what a 442 is...er, was.
My point exactly!

>           68 W-30
>           69 H/O
>           70 W-30
Nice list of cars, too bad the only comparable cars today come from
Corvette, and Dodge.  With possibly some foreign "supercar" competition
from Ferarri, etc.

I'm envious of your cars!  ;-)

Peace, Goodwill, and Happy Oldsmobilling,
Clayton Pierce,
zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu
'84 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme (350 4bbl. 66k miles)
'81 Oldsmobile Cutlass Calais (350 4bbl. ? miles) {parts car}
'80 Rover 3500 (215 EFI V8 85k miles)
'72 Mercury Marquis Brougham (429 4bbl. 110k miles)

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:10:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Altenator noise

>Well their might be a miscommunication problem on my part. Since I am
>not mechanically inclined and have MPD (Male Patterned Deafness IOW I
>hear what I want to hear), he may have said that the size of my engine
>might put more strain on the altenator.  I don't remember :-(

I could see him coming up with a theory like that. I've heard similar
stories which might be a bit more likely regarding the _battery_: it
takes more ooomph to turn over the big engines, therefore too small a
battery (such as a $39 special installed in the fall) won't last very
long since it gets too deep a discharge just trying to do a normal
start.

But for alternators, no; the worst I've heard is that too small
alternators (as measured in output capacity) could run short of output
under heavy load such as winter nighttime driving with defoggers, etc.
all blazing away at once, and start sucking juice from the battery for
backup.

And even then, I'm not sure you're any more likely to get bearing
failure. Overtightening the fan belt might aggravate that, though.

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: hitson@leadbelt.com (Roger Hitson)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:30:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Counting Pennies (Was: Re: no longer a pig in the corners)

Greg Beaulieu wrote>
....
(Much deleted)

>I suppose for an academic exercise I might want to add up my receipts
>from over the years and say that I have this much into it, but I don't
>think that's something I necessarily want to know if I'm into this for
>fun. It's probably not a rational thing - but who said old cars were
ever >rational? If it was about that we would all probably be driving
>2-year-old Toyotas or whatever. Here's the only mention of money in
>this message: just my $0.02 on the subject. > >As Bob Handren says,
just "enjoy the ride"! > >Greg Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca
Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

WELL said



Roger Hitson		
MailTo:hitson@leadbelt.com

------------------------------

From: "Chris Sparks (Mr. Ada)" <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:35:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Info I received was fun

Hi all,

Last night as I was checking through my mail, I got a letter from my
parts provider with a picture of the options available in 1968.  It was
an ad from a magazine I presume.  What was fun was the young lady
showcasing the accessories had this b**t ugly yellow and orange jump
suit.  Yuch!  Now the parts shown were nice.  He sent me the ad because
I didn't know what SSII rims looked like.  It gives me a better idea of
what I can add to my car.

Just wanted to share.

Chris Sparks
68 442

------------------------------

From: zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:41:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Counting Pennies (Was: Re: no longer a pig in the corners)

Here Here, Greg,
I agree wholeheartedly,
but unfortunately, for a college student paying his own way through
college, I MUST worry about costs involved!

PS.  For me, (with my costs) that would probably be say a '79 or so
Toyota! :-(  Which would probably cost me about the same amount I have
in my Cutlass :-)

Peace, Goodwill, and Happy Oldsmobilling,
Clayton Pierce,
zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu

On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, Roger Hitson wrote:

> Greg Beaulieu wrote>
> ....
> (Much deleted)
>
> >I suppose for an academic exercise I might want to add up my receipts
 > >from over the years and say that I have this much into it, but I
don't > >think that's something I necessarily want to know if I'm into
this for > >fun. It's probably not a rational thing - but who said old
cars were ever > >rational? If it was about that we would all probably
be driving > >2-year-old Toyotas or whatever. Here's the only mention
of money in > >this message: just my $0.02 on the subject. > > > >As
Bob Handren says, just "enjoy the ride"! > > > >Greg Beaulieu
ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada > > WELL said >
 > > > Roger Hitson		 > MailTo:hitson@leadbelt.com > > >

------------------------------

From: "Thomas Stoner" <TGSTONER@mailgw2.pmr.med.umich.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:42:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Definitely Get This!

. . . Short but sweet article tells of Linda and her 2 Hurst/Olds
vehicles a '75 and a '79. . .

*****
In 1984, Linda told me that she also had the only white 1983 H/O.
She explained that she didn't want a black one, so they built a white
one for her.  I wonder what ever became of that car . . .

Tom Stoner
Ann Arbor, MI

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:05:01 -0400
Subject: Re: New mechanic or new alternator...was Re: Altenator noise

At 05:55 AM 11/22/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>At 02:52 AM 11/22/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>>
>>>>Question: where is AC current required in a car?
>
>The most common place you'll find a true alternating current in an auto
is >in the alternator.  The A/C alternators are more compact and
efficient than >the DC generators were.  We could probably go into
really deep detail as to >why AC is more controllable and efficient for
a charging system, but I'm not >quite up to that tonight...  :) >     As
for the coil, they run on a DC voltage.

Snip>

>Back to the AC thing.  There is one more system that everyone is likely
>overlooking that is convenient, required for operation, ~and~ in my
opinion, >a required convenience:  Speakers.

>Snip

>     Enuf for now.  It's way past my bedtime, so I'll sign off with
that:) > >      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"

Charley,

Thank's for the note.  I have a very (and I mean very) general idea of
electrical operation.  My AC/DC question was in a serious vein, and you
have provided a sensable answer.

The man that thinks the coil is AC believes this because he has it
translated into a continuous duty transformer (it is a transformer
'cept) that it is fired by a single pulse of DC.  Pulsed DC can operate
a transformer in intermitent service, which is what the coil provides.
I could not think of any other place in the car where AC might be
required, hence my question.

I don't know how much required those speakers are.  As both the radio in
my Corvette and my '84 Olds have never worked since new!  At least not
continuiously.  So I just gave up after two dozen attempts at getting
the damn thing working.  I think Lucas (the prince of darkness), not
DELCO, must have made them!

Question: Are you saying that the power going into the radio is AC?  Or
that the power going in is DC, but the radio has the means to convert it
to AC where AC is required?  Or that the automobile's circuts provide
both AC and DC to the radio? Hence the recharging system on a car could
be anything AC or DC!  I go back to the theory that the change to
alternators from generators came about because transistor type circuits
made alternators possible, impossible before this development was
invented, thanks Murryhill; which made a rectifier possible, that was
small, efficient, and adaptable to automotive applications.  And for me
this translates to the value of the alternator in that it provides
charging power at all engine speeds, not just at higher speeds as was
the case with the generator!

Am I out of touch here?

I'm going to give this a little more thought, and maybe bring in an
additional question or two.  Electricity was always my short suit.

Cliff Feiler
Impailed by the Prince of Darkness

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:15:28 -0400
Subject: Re: My little olds expense list

At 08:38 AM 11/22/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Well, actually, I went SOMEWHERE ELSE (more reputable) to get the
second >one.  The good one was about 45 to 60 miles away from my house,
so I had >decided to rent one at the local small-town rental place.
Let this be a >lesson to you-all!!  YOu can learn from  MY mistakes. >
>Clayton Pierce > >On Thu, 21 Nov 1996, Dave Paulison wrote: > >> At
12:33 PM 11/21/96 -0400, you wrote: >> >Rented 1st Cherry 
Picker		$ 30
>> >(defective, but I didn't know) >> > >> >motor & tranny fell on me!
>> >> >Rented 2nd Cherry Picker 		$ 20 >> >> The first hoist was
defective, the engine fell, and they made you pay to >> rent the second
one?  Bummer... >> -- >> Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile
Cutlass Supreme >> Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi
Eclipse GS >> dpauliso@gate.net >> >> A friend of mine just bought a 2
or 2.5 ton cherry picker type engine hoist for less than $100.  I think
about $75. from some tool company.  And it was new.  I don't assume to
know how they can sell one at this price, but it makes renting appear to
be extra costly.  He also bought an engine stand for about the same
price.  I prefer to build an engine on a bench, so that tool offers no
alure to me, but for people that like the convenence (spelling) of a
stand they sound very affordable today.

Cliff Feiler
Just a friendly note

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:28:12 -0400
Subject: Re[2]: My little olds expense list

Also, get a 4 point chain, instead of a 2 point.  And, buy some grade 8
bolts for use as the lift points on the block.  Safety insurance worth a
 couple extra bucks!

David Brown   Mailto:dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu
Olds FAQ 2.0 at: http://www.en.com/users/thall/
                 ftp://arl.arizona.edu/lists/olds

- -------------
Well, actually, I went SOMEWHERE ELSE (more reputable) to get the second
 one.  The good one was about 45 to 60 miles away from my house, so I
had decided to rent one at the local small-town rental place.  Let this
be a lesson to you-all!!  YOu can learn from  MY mistakes.

Clayton Pierce

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:26:53 -0400
Subject: Re: 455 Parts

At 10:39 AM 11/22/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>G heads are from a 1971 car, GA are from 1972.  I think they're
identical, in terms of >volume and compression they produce.  I've
also heard that with some decent porting they >can produce flow rates
every bit as good as C heads.  C heads are generally considered to >be
the best big block Olds heads, although as I say, you can apparently
turn any Olds head >into a great head with porting...... > > >
>>Earlier this evening I was offered a pair of 455 heads.  They are a G
and a >>GA with the same casting number.  I told the owner I would
accept them, >>after my engine builder machine shops proves their worth
for rebuilding.  I >>assume from the same casting numbers that these
heads might be the same, but >>then the casting number has nothing to
do with the machining.  Are these >>heads the same?  Is there a best
head for a 455, I'm going to using a F block? > >Todd Morris >71
442 > Thanks Todd,

You put me one E-mail and one U.P.S. package from the last parts I need
for my 455.  It is going into a street car that will often be pulling a
trailer, not going racing.  So absolute performance is not the
requesite.  The 305 is ify, and my '84 Olds, unfortunately likely the
last new Olds I'll own, is getting some wiskers, even thou it's 455 has
less than 100,000 on it; the car has about twice that and it will
require a lot of new suspension and steering parts to make it top
quality again.

Cliff Feiler
Impressed by 455's

------------------------------

From: "Thomas Stoner" <TGSTONER@mailgw2.pmr.med.umich.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:35:38 -0400
Subject: Hurst Production

The recent postings concerning the production of various speciality
vehicles by Hurst prompted me to dig my copy of "The Hurst Heritage"
off the shelf last night.  For anyone who is interested, here is what
that source lists as the "production" vehicles which were converted
by Hurst, complete with totals reportedly built.

1968
Hurst/Olds - 515
Hemi Barracuda - 70
Hemi Dart - 80

1969
Hurst/Olds - 914  (914 hardtop, 2 convertible)
Dodge Coronet Taxi - 1,500
Hurst SC/Rambler - 1,512
Hurst SS/AMX - 52

1970
SSJ Grand Prix - 272
Chrysler 300/Hurst - 503
AMC "The Rebel Machine" - 2,326

1971
SSJ Grand Prix - 157
Jeepster Special - 100

1972
Hurst/Olds - 629  (499 hardtop (220 w/sunroof), 130 convertible)
SSJ Grand Prix - 60 (approximate)

1973
Hurst/Olds - 1,097

1974
Hurst/Olds - 1,800
H/O 88 convertible - 92

1975
Hurst/Olds - 2,535
Buick Century Pace Car - 1,813

1976
Buick Century Pace Car - 1,291

1979
Hurst/Olds - 2,499

1983
Hurst/Olds - 3,000

1984
Hurst/Olds - 3,500

Note that this list does not include "one offs" and prototypes, such
as the "Hurst Hairy Oldsmobile" (Does anyone know what ever became
of that car?), the "Hemi Under Glass", the front wheel drive '68 442,
or the '76 H/O.  It also does not include limited production
speciality vehicles, such as the Hurst Gremlin-X Rescue System 1
vehicles.  Also note that I'm not certain that the production figures
listed are exactly correct, as this book does have several more
obvious errors when it comes to information and data on these cars.

Tom Stoner
Ann Arbor, MI

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:28:02 -0400
Subject: Re: New mechanic or new alternator...was Re: Altenator noise

>I don't know how much required those speakers are.  As both the radio
in my >Corvette and my '84 Olds have never worked since new!  At least
not >continuously.  So I just gave up after two dozen attempts at
getting the >damn thing working.  I think Lucas (the prince of
darkness), not DELCO, must >have made them!

A guy I talked to once who repaired Delco electronics for a living told
me that a lot of them (including the one I brought in) failed due to
cracked solder connections at the edge connectors of the circuit boards.
He would find the break(s), resolder, and the radio would be good for
another few years after that.

>Question: Are you saying that the power going into the radio is AC?

No, DC.

>Or that
>the power going in is DC, but the radio has the means to convert it to
AC >where AC is required?

Right, such as the signal to the speakers, in a way. The alternating
flow of current is what moves the speaker diaphragms in and out to
produce the sound waves. Run DC through 'em and they'll simply move in
one direction and stick there.

>Or that the automobile's circuts provide both AC and
>DC to the radio? Hence the recharging system on a car could be anything
AC >or DC!

I don't think you can charge a battery with AC, can you?

>I go back to the theory that the change to alternators from
>generators came about because transistor type circuits made alternators
>possible, impossible before this development was invented, thanks
Murryhill; >which made a rectifier possible, that was small, efficient,
and adaptable to >automotive applications.

I thought a rectifier used diodes, not transistors. The change to
alternators made for stable voltage output at lower speeds (i.e. As
speed goes up, the generator produces more voltage; the alternator
produces more [rectified] amperage at a relatively unchanging
voltage...?)

>And for me this translates to the value of the
>alternator in that it provides charging power at all engine speeds, not
just >at higher speeds as was the case with the generator!

Generally speaking, yes, I would agree.

>I'm going to give this a little more thought, and maybe bring in an
>additional question or two.  Electricity was always my short suit.

No, no, when it comes to electronic stuff I defy you to know _less_
than me.

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 15:46:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Toro Help, Was: [Toro] 66 FOR SALE!]

Mike Turley wrote:
>
> Tell me what to watch out for.  Need responses before 11:30 EST.

Quick answer since I've only got 5 minutes:   :o

1) Clicking in front end when turning indicates bad CV joints.
2) Rust in trunk and around rear suspension mountings.

Other things as usual...

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: The Viking <avar@infinet.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:46:15 -0400
Subject: RE: Winter Project

THE CAR:  Oldsmobile Cutlass, 2 door, '79, 260 V8, 200THM, 2.29 rear
end- 7.5 ring gear.  (A stock grocery getter driven by a little old lady
since new) THE PROJECT TO DATE:  Front and rear suspension are rebuilt
wih PST and Hotchkis polygraphite parts.  Interior (stock camel)
completely refurbished (65-45 power bench)(ACC camel carpet).  Exterior
 de-rusted,de-dented and repainted GM dark adriatic blue (was orginally
a horrible brown)  Camel landeau vinyl top.  Camel side pin stripes.
All crome removed, cleaned, polished and recromed as necessary.
Instrument panel replaced with rally guages.  Grant leather 4 spoke
steering wheel. Centerline convo-pro wheels with BFG Radial t/A tires
(245x60x15 front and 215x60x15 rear).  New stock brake system.  Pioneer
stereo - 180 watt system.  Rebuild started 9/1/96. THE PLAN:  To
re[lace engine, transmission, drive axle rear end and exhaust to create
a 455 ci 375-425 hp stret machine driven frequently and raced
occasionally. THE QUESTIONS:  (Your collective recommendations with
brand names and part numbers, if possible, will be greatly appreciated.
Assume cost is not a problem, although it always is a consideration)
	1.  THE ENGINE:  Starting with a stock olds 455 what needs to be done
to create a pump gas, daily driver. What years are most preferable for
the engine?  Will I need different motor mounts?  Fitment problems? 	2.
THE EXHAUST:  I would like to run headers.  Is there a fitment problem.
I understand there may be with the a/c coil/blower housing. I am
planning on a 3' exhaust and understand from Tom Millard I will need a
different cross-member.  If a fitment problem exists how can I maintain
the a/c? 	3.  THE TRANSMISSION: TH350 or TH400?  TCI or B&M street/strip
version Trans mount?  Floor shifter? Tail shafts? Yokes? 	4.  DRIVE
SHAFT:  What to do? Safety yoke -yes. 	5.  REAR AXLE:  What to do?
Ratio?


Thanks to each of you who responds.  Your advice,suggestions,wisdom and
experience are invaluable.

Al - Columbus, OH


 "The Viking"
  PGP Public Key Available by E-Mail Request

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 15:52:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Altenator noise

Chris Sparks (Mr. Ada) wrote:
>
> he may have said that the size of my engine might put more
> strain on the altenator.  I don't remember :-(

No way, Jose.  The alternator charges the battery and runs the
electrical accessories.  The size of the engine has nothing to do with
this; the size of the accessory load does.  As Andy Green has already
correctly pointed out, the size of the battery could be an issue when
starting a BB but the size of the motor has virtually nothing to do
with the load on the altenator.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Bob Valentine <ravalent@liii.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:53:35 -0400
Subject: 71-72 Parts

I just picked up another parts car - a '72 C/S ragtop with no papers.
It *WAS* someone's project car but it's been allowed to sit for long
enough that it's not exactly a worthy project anymore since it was
allowed to sit unprotected on a dirt field.   ;^(

Main reason I picked it up is that it has a good top (about 2 years
old), and a descent rebuilt 350 (-558 block, #8 heads, mild cam), and a
trunk full of never-installed resto parts.  I don't know if any work
was done to the 8's, but this motor supposedly cost they guy $3k....

In this car's history someone parted out a 442 and put some of the parts
 on this car (a base model, drum brake, no a/c, stripper).   Mine's not
a 442, so most of the parts are not useful to me.

Here's what I'll be keeping from this car:

	1.  Motor/trans
	2.  trunk lid
	3.  top (whole assembly)
	4.  steering column and dual-gate shifter (!)
	5.  most of the interior (seats, ect)
	6.  passenger side quarter panel (newly installed)
	7.  442 rear bumper

Is anyone looking for any other parts from this, or does anyone want
what's left when I'm done?   I'm picking it up this weekend, and should
be done with it in about 2 weeks....   I'm on Long Island, about 1/2
hour from NYC.

   Here's what I can see will be left:

	Windshield, Doors (p/s is good, the d/s has some rust), frame,
header panel, rear end (10 bolt Olds), and other stuffs. The front
fenders are bondo specials on the bottom edges.  Good for patching,
however. The car also has big-n-little aluminum rims on it - they look
kinda like Draglites - probably 15x8 (might be 10) and 15x6 I'd guess.

	I've also got lots of other stuff I've saved over the years,
which I need to clean out - like a whole set of convertible door and 1/4
 glass, and tons of door parts.

 	Oh, and the dual-gate in this car - were these ever a option
without a console?  Could this shifter be a original, or is it likely a
aftermarket?

                     -->   Bob Valentine  <--
                    --> ravalent@liii.com  <--
        "Experience varies directly with equipment ruined"

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:04:51 -0400
Subject: Re: New mechanic or new alternator...was Re: Altenator noise

I agree, it probably is a bearing goin bad.  You probably need a new
mechanic too!

If you feel inclined to fix this yourself, the bearing will run about
$2-3, and brushes about the same. A paperclip will also need to be
sacrificed - to hold the brushes in the brush holder - although you now
have a neat, cheap little tool!

Before disassembling the alt., mark a line on both halves to ease
assembly. Pull apart, and inspect the bearings, and shaft ends.  If the
shaft ends are worn, it will be worth buying a rebuilt.  Be aware that
most rebuilts only replace the bad parts, so you might get a 10+ year
old regulator, diodes and diode trio - typically the stuff that fails.
Ask a knowledgeable counter person if any rebuilt replaces these parts.

As long as you have it apart, follow your repair manual for checking the
 diodes, and for continuity and shorts in the armature and windings.
Clean brush contact rings (exact term escapes me) on the armature
w/some 600 grit, flip the paper over and put a little arc on the new
brushes.  Inspect and clean off any grit left behind.

Hey this might even be the time to do a mitazwell and detail that alt.!
I'd recommend Eastwood's Nylac to protect the now shiny alt. frame
(inside too) from corrosion.

David Brown   Mailto:dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu
Olds FAQ 2.0 at: http://www.en.com/users/thall/
                 ftp://arl.arizona.edu/lists/olds

- -----------
> >A couple of weeks ago I had my mechanic check out my charging system.
> >In particular I was hearing a whine from my altenator.  My mechanic
> >said to me, "The whine from the altenator will be there since I had
> >a BB engine and that it causes the altenator to run all of the time".
>
> Huh?  Is this mechanic certified (ASE or whatever)?  The size of the
engine > will not make a difference in the operation of the alternator.
They all > work the same.  If it's whining all the time, it's probably a
bearing going bad.

------------------------------

From: "Mark Cornea (R)" <mcornea@ford.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:00:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Hurst Production

On Nov 22, 12:35pm, Thomas Stoner wrote:
> Subject: Hurst Production
> The recent postings concerning the production of various speciality
> vehicles by Hurst prompted me to dig my copy of "The Hurst Heritage"
> off the shelf last night.  For anyone who is interested, here is what
> that source lists as the "production" vehicles which were converted
> by Hurst, complete with totals reportedly built.
>
> 1968
> Hurst/Olds - 515
> Hemi Barracuda - 70
> Hemi Dart - 80
>
> 1969
> Hurst/Olds - 914  (914 hardtop, 2 convertible)
> Dodge Coronet Taxi - 1,500
> Hurst SC/Rambler - 1,512
> Hurst SS/AMX - 52
>
> 1970
> SSJ Grand Prix - 272
> Chrysler 300/Hurst - 503
> AMC "The Rebel Machine" - 2,326
>
> 1971
> SSJ Grand Prix - 157
> Jeepster Special - 100
>
> 1972
> Hurst/Olds - 629  (499 hardtop (220 w/sunroof), 130 convertible)

###### 624 built....................32 W30's
		262 w/sunroofs
		3 station Wagons
		130 converts............10 which are W30's
		229 hardtops

cooler ta cruise,                                _   _
                                                 _| | |
       Mark Cornea (Dr Decal) `70 442 stick \/\/ _| |_| red

             (MCORNEA@pt8228.pto.ford.com)





> SSJ Grand Prix - 60 (approximate)
>
> 1973
> Hurst/Olds - 1,097
>
> 1974
> Hurst/Olds - 1,800
> H/O 88 convertible - 92
>
> 1975
> Hurst/Olds - 2,535
> Buick Century Pace Car - 1,813
>
> 1976
> Buick Century Pace Car - 1,291
>
> 1979
> Hurst/Olds - 2,499
>
> 1983
> Hurst/Olds - 3,000
>
> 1984
> Hurst/Olds - 3,500
>
> Note that this list does not include "one offs" and prototypes, such
> as the "Hurst Hairy Oldsmobile" (Does anyone know what ever became
> of that car?), the "Hemi Under Glass", the front wheel drive '68 442,
> or the '76 H/O.  It also does not include limited production
> speciality vehicles, such as the Hurst Gremlin-X Rescue System 1
> vehicles.  Also note that I'm not certain that the production figures
> listed are exactly correct, as this book does have several more
> obvious errors when it comes to information and data on these cars.
>
> Tom Stoner
> Ann Arbor, MI
>
>-- End of excerpt from Thomas Stoner

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:11:53 -0400
Subject: Re[2]: 455 Parts

Check the FAQ head section for a breakdown of the G and Ga heads.  Some
of these units (found on 442 and Toro depending on year) had larger
intake valves than more common uses of G and Ga heads.  Some Ga's also
had larger exhaust valves.

David Brown   Mailto:dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu
Olds FAQ 2.0 at: http://www.en.com/users/thall/
                 ftp://arl.arizona.edu/lists/olds

- -------------
Earlier this evening I was offered a pair of 455 heads.  They are a G
and a GA with the same casting number.  I told the owner I would accept
them, after my engine builder machine shops proves their worth for
rebuilding.  I assume from the same casting numbers that these heads
might be the same, but then the casting number has nothing to do with
the machining.  Are these heads the same?  Is there a best head for a
455, I'm going to using a F block?

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 16:08:45 -0400
Subject: Re: New mechanic or new alternator...was Re: Altenator noise

Andrew C. Green wrote:
>
> > Or that the power going in is DC, but the radio has the means to
> > convert it to AC where AC is required?

Yes and no.  While it is true that in many radios, a circuit called a DC
 to DC converter is used to step up the 12VDC to a higher DC voltage
(This often involves changing the DC to AC, stepping it up, then
converting it back to DC), the radio tuner, tape deck, and amplifier
circuits require DC not AC to function.

> > Or that the automobile's circuts provide both AC and DC to the
radio? > > Hence the recharging system on a car could be anything AC or
DC! > > I don't think you can charge a battery with AC, can you?

Nope.  A battery is a DC storage device and can only be charged by
applying a DC voltage higher than the battery voltage.

> > I go back to the theory that the change to alternators from
> > generators came about because transistor type circuits made
> > alternators possible, impossible before this development was
> > invented...

Nope.  Alternators existed looooong before transistors.
...or tubes, for that matter.

> I thought a rectifier used diodes, not transistors.

True.  (though a transistor can be used as a diode)

> The change to alternators made for stable voltage output at lower
> speeds (i.e. As speed goes up, the generator produces more voltage;
the > alternator produces more [rectified] amperage at a relatively >
unchanging voltage...?)

Also true.  As speed increases, the output of a generator increases
voltage, the output of an alternator increases frequency.  Since we're
going to convert it to DC anyway, the frequency component is not
significant.

> > And for me this translates to the value of the alternator in that it
 > > provides charging power at all engine speeds, not just at higher >
> speeds as was the case with the generator! > > Generally speaking,
yes, I would agree.

Me too.   :).

> >I'm going to give this a little more thought, and maybe bring in an
> >additional question or two.  Electricity was always my short suit.

Better than a short circuit.

> No, no, when it comes to electronic stuff I defy you to know _less_
> than me.
???

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 16:13:21 -0400
Subject: Re: New mechanic or new alternator...was Re: Altenator noise

David Brown wrote:
>
> brush contact rings (exact term escapes me)

Commutator.

> ...on the armature w/some 600 grit...

I would suggest that you use a contact cleaner or at least a soft pencil
 eraser to clean it instead (less abrasive).

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:15:06 -0400
Subject: Re: New mechanic or new alternator...was Re: Altenator noise

At 12:28 PM 11/22/96 -0400, you wrote:

Snip>>


>
>>I go back to the theory that the change to alternators from
>>generators came about because transistor type circuits made
alternators >>possible, impossible before this development was invented,
thanks Murryhill; >>which made a rectifier possible, that was small,
efficient, and adaptable to >>automotive applications. > >I thought a
rectifier used diodes, not transistors. The change to alternators >made
for stable voltage output at lower speeds (i.e. As speed goes up, the
>generator produces more voltage; the alternator produces more
[rectified] >amperage at a relatively unchanging voltage...?) >

Snip>

>... when it comes to electronic stuff I defy you to know _less_
>than me.
>
>Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331

Andy,

The only thing I'm 99+% sure of is that the transistor was invented by
people at Bell Labs at Murryhill, N.J. in the late 1940's.

And I think we generally agree.  I noticed that I used the term
transistor type circuits; which I (and probably incorrectly) considered
a circuit with a diode to be.  I always though (again probably
incorrectly) that a diode and transistor were providing the same sort of
circuit!  Just that the diode was two wire, always in use; and the
transistor three wire, the third wire providing a switch; allowing the
circuit to be turned off and on.  And then which came first, the diode
or the egg?

OK electrical guys, what is the REAL difference between a diode and a
transistor, for the electrically inept?
(And please keep it in lay terms).  Good pun what, in reference to the
egg in the previous paragraph.

Cliff Feiler
And NOT Thomas A. Edison, Jr.

------------------------------

From: "Chris Sparks (Mr. Ada)" <sparks@aisf.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:30:16 -0400
Subject: Re: New mechanic or new alternator...was Re: Altenator noise

David Brown wrote:

> As long as you have it apart, follow your repair manual for checking
the > diodes, and for continuity and shorts in the armature and
windings.  Clean > brush contact rings (exact term escapes me) on the
armature w/some 600 > grit, flip the paper over and put a little arc on
the new brushes.  Inspect > and clean off any grit left behind.

Well I am not really able to do that kind of work.  Ever since I had CT
surgery my hands, gripping strength is shot.  That is why I depend
heavily
on mechanics.

Chris Sparks

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 16:28:27 -0400
Subject: Re: New mechanic or new alternator...was Re: Altenator noise

C.R.F. wrote:
>
> The only thing I'm 99+% sure of is that the transistor was invented by
> people at Bell Labs at Murryhill, N.J. in the late 1940's.

By J Bardeen, W H Bratten, and W Shockley in 1948.

> OK electrical guys, what is the REAL difference between a diode and a
> transistor, for the electrically inept?

A diode allow for current flow in one direction only and has no control
input to very the current flow through the device.

A transistor is similar (sort of two "diodes" put together) but has a
control input to allow the unidirectional current flow to vary depending
 upon the control input.

> Good pun what, in reference to the egg in the previous paragraph.

I give it an 85.   ;)

> Cliff Feiler
> And NOT Thomas A. Edison, Jr.

See company name below...

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:35:16 -0400
Subject: Re: New mechanic or new alternator...was Re: Altenator noise

At 04:08 PM 11/22/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Andrew C. Green wrote:

Snip>

Good, one of the electrically tuned community

>> > I go back to the theory that the change to alternators from
>> > generators came about because transistor type circuits made
>> > alternators possible, impossible before this development was
>> > invented...
>
>Nope.  Alternators existed looooong before transistors.
>...or tubes, for that matter.

I agree, I saw a rectifier locomotive in the mid '50s.  For that matter
doesn't the AC power that comes to your house from, what infact, could
be called an alternator?  However, prior to the (note above "transistor
type circuits") it would have demanded a tube type rectifier which would
probably not have been acceptable in an automobile.  Power loss thru the
tube would have probably negated the alternators other advantages.

I think the alternator came, when as they say, "it's time has come."
All of the necessary components were inplace, and the generator was
history?  While we are on the subject of generators, can you explain the
difference in operation between a "third brush" generator, and a "non
third brush" generator?

>
>> I thought a rectifier used diodes, not transistors.
>
>True.  (though a transistor can be used as a diode)
>


>> The change to alternators made for stable voltage output at lower
>> speeds (i.e. As speed goes up, the generator produces more voltage;
the >> alternator produces more [rectified] amperage at a relatively
>> unchanging voltage...?) >

>> > And for me this translates to the value of the alternator in that
it >> > provides charging power at all engine speeds, not just at
higher >> > speeds as was the case with the generator! >> >> Generally
speaking, yes, I would agree. > >Me too.   :). > >> >I'm going to give
this a little more thought, and maybe bring in an >> >additional
question or two.  Electricity was always my short suit. > >Better than a
short circuit.

Ha Ha, the other punsters are out today.
>
>> No, no, when it comes to electronic stuff I defy you to know _less_
>> than me.
>???
>
>The 66 Toro and Mike
>
>
>--
>Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
>     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
>     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/
>
>
>
Cliff Feiler
Not Thomas A. Edison, Jr.,
or Albert Tesla, Jr., either

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:38:21 -0400
Subject: Re: New mechanic or new alternator...was Re: Altenator noise

At 04:28 PM 11/22/96 -0400, you wrote:
>C.R.F. wrote:
>>
>> The only thing I'm 99+% sure of is that the transistor was invented
by >> people at Bell Labs at Murryhill, N.J. in the late 1940's. > >By J
Bardeen, W H Bratten, and W Shockley in 1948. > >> OK electrical guys,
what is the REAL difference between a diode and a >> transistor, for the
electrically inept? > >A diode allow for current flow in one direction
only and has no control >input to very the current flow through the
device. > >A transistor is similar (sort of two "diodes" put together)
but has a >control input to allow the unidirectional current flow to
vary depending >upon the control input. > >> Good pun what, in
reference to the egg in the previous paragraph. > >I give it an 85.   ;) >
>> Cliff Feiler >> And NOT Thomas A. Edison, Jr. > >See company name
below... > >The 66 Toro and Mike > > >-- >Michael R. Frederick, CEO
Edison3, Incorporated >     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation &
Communication >     (813) 210-8649
http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/ > > > And Feiler says "stupendous."
You've out puned me by far!

Tnx

------------------------------

From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:42:32 -0400
Subject: Re[2]: New mechanic or new alternator...was Re: Altenator no

Thanks Mike!  And good idea.

David Brown   Mailto:dbrown@mcis.bsd.uchicago.edu
Olds FAQ 2.0 at: http://www.en.com/users/thall/
                 ftp://arl.arizona.edu/lists/olds

- ----------
David Brown wrote:
>
> brush contact rings (exact term escapes me)

Commutator.

> ...on the armature w/some 600 grit...

I would suggest that you use a contact cleaner or at least a soft pencil
 eraser to clean it instead (less abrasive).

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 16:43:44 -0400
Subject: Re: New mechanic or new alternator...was Re: Altenator noise

> ...but I'll bet you don't know what a Johnson bar is?
>
> The Wiz

I've heard we have one of them in Ybor City near downtown Tampa.   ;)

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Stephen Lesniak <sxl149@psu.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:50:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Barnstormers (WAS Re: Counting Pennies)

I feel compelled to share my story.  Dad and I were looking for an old
car to fix up.  He found a '65 Cutlass for $1200(not a bad price) that
had been in storage for 6 yrs.  Being the penny pinchers that we are we
shopped for 5 more months.  Finally we went back and got it for $800.
The car runs great(now).  We were not a fortunate as just changing the
oil and driving.  We had many minor repairs plus we had to change all
the valve springs because we broke two of them.  However, now we have a
great car that is a daily driver.


steve

------------------------------

From: r_mullen@Merck.Com (R Mullen)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:02:00 -0400
Subject: Aurora Club?!?

>From: hkroner@itagroup.com
>Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:29:49 -0400
>Subject: Starting an Aurora Club

>Hi - I am working with Oldsmobile on the possibility of starting an
>Aurora Club with corporate support.

Question 1:
What's an Aurora?  (Sarcasm, folks)

Question 2:
How about some corporate support for some other moderately popular Olds
cars (like the 442, Toronado, 88, 98, Cutlass....etc.)?

The "bonding" things you talk about are true, but if I had just laid out
30,000+ samolians for an Aurora, I better not have to turn a wrench on
it for quite a few years.  I think that your typical Aurora buyer who is
also a motor head will drive the Aurora Monday through Friday, and bring
out the 442/Toro/Cutlass/VC for the real driving/power train abuse/ in
your face/ tire burning chores on the weekend.  Wouldn't want to void
that warranty with abusive driving or power train modifications, right?
Count me out of the road turtle club.  Send my regards to Olds and tell
them to offer some corporate support to the Bryceman.  He at least knows
how to help out Olds enthusiasts.
Scott "My Olds has a Rocket emblem, not a Lexus-wanna-be emblem" Mullen
'70 442

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 17:06:06 -0400
Subject: Re: New mechanic or new alternator...was Re: Altenator noise

C.R.F. wrote:
>
> I agree, I saw a rectifier locomotive in the mid '50s.

GG-1?

> For that matter doesn't the AC power that comes to your house from,
> what infact, could be called an alternator?

Yup.  There are two basic classes of electricity "producing" devices.
The generator and the altenator.  Power plants use the latter.

> However, prior to the (note above "transistor type circuits") it would
 > have demanded a tube type rectifier which would probably not have
been > acceptable in an automobile.  Power loss thru the tube would >
have probably negated the alternators other advantages.

Possibly.  A tube rectifier has a cathode heater which has to be
powered; however, there were diodes OTHER than tubes prior to solid
state devices. For example, the "cats wisker" diode of crystal radio
fame.

> I think the alternator came, when as they say, "it's time has come."
> All of the necessary components were inplace, and the generator was
> history?

Agreed.  It is probably true to say that the wide accepatance of the
altenator was due, at least in part, to the advent of the solid state
rectifier.

> While we are on the subject of generators, can you explain the
> difference in operation between a "third brush" generator, and a "non
> third brush" generator?

Not without some research.  I have to read through the chapters on
Dynamos in my 1924 copy of Audel's Handy Book of Practical Electricity.
Really...

> Cliff Feiler
> Not Thomas A. Edison, Jr.,
> or Albert Tesla, Jr., either

            ^^^^^
Speaking of alternating current

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:14:28 -0400
Subject: Off-topic, but... (Was Alternator Noise)

Andrew C. Green wrote:

> >Nope.  Alternators existed looooong before transistors.
> >...or tubes, for that matter.

As did diodes and triodes (which perform some of the
switching/amplification functions that a transistor does today)... after
all, radios and amplifiers also existed long before transistors were
invented.

It's just that *solid state* diodes (all transistors ar solid state)
didn't exist until they figured out how to "dope" (basically,
contaminate) germanium, and later, silicon, to make these materials
semi-conductive, with all the resultant neat-o properties, like making
conductivity directional in a diode, and those tricksy electron paths
forming across an NPN junction :)

My semi-conductor schooling is a lil rusty from all the software I've
been doing for 15 years, but you can't take *all* of the 'lectrical
injuneering out o' the boy! :)

BTW, as for that query about radios and AC:  That question I think was
already answered; but in short, it's true that speakers only "work" with
AC, in that changing voltages change the position of the magnet in the
voice coil, and when done fast enough, produce sound.  Sound waves can
be represented electrically, as Alexander Graham Bell discovered, as
changes in voltage.

So, in essence, the "AC" that affects the speakers are the signal
modulating the amplitude or frequency (AM or FM, respectively),
representing sound.

Did I help, or confuse even further? :)




Tim (Trying Not to Bamboozle with Techno-Babble) Churchill
- -- And I'm not Nikolas Tesla, Jr., either! :)
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'89 Cadillac Fleetwood, a.k.a. 'Der KinderWagen'
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 17:21:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Aurora Club?!?

R Mullen wrote:
>
> Question 1:
> What's an Aurora?  (Sarcasm, folks)

Wasn't that the "ssoap-on-a-rope" thinbg from the other day?

> Question 2:
> How about some corporate support for some other moderately popular
Olds > cars (like the 442, Toronado, 88, 98, Cutlass....etc.)?

Hear, hear!

> Scott "My Olds has a Rocket emblem, not a Lexus-wanna-be emblem"
Mullen

ARF!

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Blair Rendell <brendell@pi.pro.ec>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:17:11 -0400
Subject: Re: 6 million$ for a 69 VC!!??

At 12:37 PM 11/22/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Blair Rendell wrote:
>>
>> Well I am now the proud owner of a 69 Vista Cruiser....a former US
>> Embassy car..here in Quito, Ecuador.
>
>Geez, Blair, only YOU could find a VC in Ecuador.  6 million sucres --
>such a deal.  Congratulations.  BTW, Any Toronados lying around the
>countryside?
>
>The 66 Toro and Mike
>
>Mike:
  Haven't seen any Toros here...yet..but now that I have wheels..besides
my normal mode of transport..bicycle..I can cover a little more
ground..I will be looking for ANY  Olds of interest.. Blair >--
>Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated >     Tampa,
Florida           Data Translation & Communication >     (813) 210-8649
http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/ > > > > >

------------------------------

From: Barnacle Bill <wreilly@acad.bryant.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:24:17 -0400
Subject: please resend any mail

The server here at school was down for the past 24 hrs.  It seems that
any mail I should have gotten from the list or personally was lost.
Iwas hopefully expecting some more info on the Areo Hurst.  So if
anyone sent anything concerning this topic could you please resend it
to me personally. Thanks a lot,

Bill Reilly
'85 Cutlass Supreme

------------------------------

From: FERRERO@uno.cc.geneseo.edu
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:25:10 -0400
Subject: Resto  Tips  ..... (correction and new tip)

yesterday's resto tip was missing parts...

my computer couldn't keep up with all of the messages and locked up on
me. to fix it, everything that i didn't have downloaded was lost... (all
the resto tips are safe).  There was a posting of names and e-mail
addresses of people that "helped out on this olds list".   If someone
can re-post that for me, i would like to include it in the "Resto Tips"
hand book.

yesterdays tip...

When stripping a car of its paint (via chemicals), the longer it has to
sit (before it has a chance to dry) the more paint it will strip.  This
is okay for horizantal surfaces where the stripper can just sit, but
what about vertical surfaces where the stripper will drip / run off?
Well, if you have an old metal screen from a screen door or from a
hardware store, put it on the vertical surfaces (which can be held in
place with magnets as "tacs") and put on the chemical.  The screen holds
more of the stripper in place for a longer period of time on the
vertical surfaces, and helps with your paint stripping!....

Everything after that is correct.  I appologize for the inconvience.

For todays Resto Tip .....

Actually, it is an emergency resto tip...

When you are traveling along and a fan belt breaks, turn to your girl
friend (if you are a guy) and ask her for her panty hose!  Around where
I am, the localsuper market has panty hose and not fan belts.  if you
tie on the panty hose in place of the belt, it can get you to an
emergency service station or an auto parts place for proper replacement.
=)  This can help you get you where you want to go when you are in a
tight squeeze (or just get the panty hoseoff of your girl friend!)

Resto Corner

- --joe ferrero

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:22:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Hurst Production

...prompted me to dig my copy of "The Hurst Heritage" off the shelf...

1969
Hurst/Olds - 914  (914 hardtop, 2 convertible)

...Also note that I'm not certain that the production figures listed
are exactly correct, as this book does have several more obvious
errors when it comes to information and data on these cars.

Tom Stoner
Ann Arbor, MI

          I agree.  I also have the book and question some of the
          figures.  I have always heard that there were 912 69 H/O
          hardtops built, the original 906 and an additional 6, for
          the total of 912.  Adding the two convertibles gets to the
          914 number.  I suspect that the second 914 in the book is a
          typo.

          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:12:04 -0400
Subject: Re[2]: Today's Washington Post

When was the last time you were in an Olds showroom?  You can't even buy
 a quad 4 anymore.

          Actually, you can.  It's just not called the Quad Four
anymore.
          And, unfortunately, it's now a "Corporate" engine :(

I could see my Grandmother driving a '9X Oldsmobile, I couldn't see
myself driving it (except for one of the quad 4's, I've driven them
before, and they have pretty good acceleration etc.).

          I don't disagree, but given my (probably unfounded) prejudices

          against anything that isn't RWD with at least 400 cubic
inches,
          there aren't a lot of new cars from any manufacturer that I'm
          interested in.  While the performance is impressive, I really
          don't want an F-car, and I can't afford a Viper (although used

          93s are getting close!).  The rumored $75K - $100K for the
          Aurora/Shelby is out of my league.

Certainly, along with part of the design team!  e.g. which is which, a
Buick, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, or Chevy?  They all look the same!

          Agreed.  We've had a thread going for some time on this
          subject.


>           68 W-30
>           69 H/O
>           70 W-30

I'm envious of your cars!  ;-)

          Thanks, but they all need work.  I've been collecting parts
for years
          waiting for the time to work on them.  The 66 convert is
finally in
          the garage for the start of the body-off restification.  The
70 is the
          only one currently running and registered.

          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 17:39:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Off-topic, but... (Was Alternator Noise)

Timothy A. Churchill wrote:
>
> ...radios and amplifiers also existed long before transistors
> were invented.

Ture, true.  (nods head in agreement)

> It's just that *solid state* diodes (all transistors ar solid state)
> didn't exist until they figured out how to "dope" (basically,
> contaminate) germanium, and later, silicon, to make these materials
> semi-conductive...

These materials were always semiconductors, the problem was in how to
control their conduction.

> ... with all the resultant neat-o properties, like making conductivity
 > directional in a diode, and those tricksy electron paths forming
across > an NPN junction :)

Actually only a transistor would only have an NPN (or a PNP) junction
not a diode.

> My semi-conductor schooling is a lil rusty from all the software I've
> been doing for 15 years, but you can't take *all* of the 'lectrical
> injuneering out o' the boy! :)

As the Olds List saying goes: "ME TOO"
       ^^^^
(hidden Olds content)

> ...it's true that speakers only "work" with AC, in that changing
> voltages change the position of the magnet in the voice coil...

The magnet is stationary; the voice coil moves.

> So, in essence, the "AC" that affects the speakers are the signal
> modulating the amplitude or frequency (AM or FM, respectively),
> representing sound.

Not exactly.  Modulation is the effect you get by mixing a signal on a
carrier -- as in Amplitude Modulation or Frequencey Modulation.  There
is no carrier frequency here.

However, the use of the terms AC and DC in regards to the speakers still
 bothers me.  AC and DC are generally used to refer to power SOURCES
not signals or signal sources.

> Did I help, or confuse even further? :)

Too close to call.   ;)

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:27:56 -0400
Subject: Re: 71-72 Parts


  Oh, and the dual-gate in this car - were these ever a option
without a console?

          Nope.

Could this shifter be a original, or is it likely a aftermarket?

          Since they were available aftermarket, that would be my
          guess.  I assume there is a small plastic cover over the
          mechanism.  The 68/69 H/O units had a small mini-console,
          while the aftermarket units had an even smaller cover.  In
          any case, all of the 70-72 units came with the full console.

          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com

          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30


------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 17:43:04 -0400
Subject: Re: please resend any mail

Barnacle Bill wrote:
>
> The server here at school was down for the past 24 hrs.  It seems that
> any mail I should have gotten from the list or personally was lost.
> I was hopefully expecting some more info on the Areo Hurst.  So if
> anyone sent anything concerning this topic could you please resend it
> to me personally.

BB:

You can download the last seven days of both the Olds
list and the Toro list from the Toro List links page at
http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/torolist.html

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:44:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Off-topic, but... (Was Alternator Noise)

>Andrew C. Green wrote:

Um, no I didn't... I knew sooner or later this attribution line in this
thread would wind up sitting on top of nothing I actually wrote.  :-)

>BTW, as for that query about radios and AC:  That question I think was
already >answered; but in short, it's true that speakers only "work"
with AC, in that >changing voltages change the position of the magnet in
the voice coil, and >when done fast enough, produce sound.  Sound waves
can be represented >electrically, as Alexander Graham Bell discovered,
as changes in voltage. [...] >Did I help, or confuse even further? :)

The latter. Does the current flow going to the speakers actually
change direction per cycle (as in Alternating Current), or does it
keep going in the same direction but at varying voltages?

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:50:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Resto  Tips  ..... (correction and new tip)

>if you tie on the panty hose
>in place of the belt, it can get you to an emergency service station or
an >auto parts place for proper replacement.

This is one area where I must say the newer cars are a big improvement:
the serpentine belts used nowadays are an absolute breeze to install and
the spring-loaded tensioner means you don't have to try and tension the
belt manually, use three hands to do it, worry whether it's too tight
and the alternator bearing will fail, etc. For emergencies, all you need
to carry in the trunk besides the replacement belt (one, in most cases)
is one socket and wrench handle (say, a pivoting-head breaker-bar).

Would be interesting to develop some sort of retrofit serpentine-belt
conversion for older engines...

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: "Thomas Stoner" <TGSTONER@mailgw2.pmr.med.umich.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 15:04:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Hurst Production

. . . I suspect that the second 914 in the book is a typo.
*****
Joe,

It's a typo all right, but it's not in the book and was mine.  The
book's figures are actually 912 hardtops and 2 convertibles, for a
total of 914.  I guess I should get this new scanner that's sitting
in my office hooked up, so I don't need to try typing all those
numbers correctly . . .

Tom Stoner
Ann Arbor, MI

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 18:01:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Today's Washington Post

JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com wrote:

>           The following is a quote:
>           "SUVs have become so faddish that even Oldsmobile
>           (Oldsmobile?) has a sport-utility model.  You never knew
>           dowdiness and flashiness could coexist, did you?  Olds
>           thinks they can."
>
>           Note to Heidi:
>
>           Whoever is responsible in the division for press relations
>           should be taken out and shot.  Unfortunately, this guy
>           (Levey) probably represents the general public's impression
>           of Olds.

Unfortunately, it does.  Some of you may remember maybe six months ago,
I took a question (from the Olds list) about rotor warpage over to the
Fordnatics list for their opinions.  They though it was kind of funny
that Olds people were concerned with brakes.  Their image was of an old
lady going about 25 on an expressway.

>           I don't think that anyone outside those who read
>           National Dragster know about Oldsmobile's impressive win
>           record in NHRA competition.

>           Nor have Oldsmobile's recent wins in road and endurance
>           racing been publicized.

Both of which are VERY impressive.

>           It's unfortunate that I believe that his opinion really does
>           represent that of the general populace.

It is.  But that seems to be the image that Olds wants.  Right, Heidi?

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 15:13:23 -0400
Subject: Re: 6 million$ for a 69 VC!!??

On Fri, 22 Nov 1996, Blair Rendell wrote:
>  Well I am now the proud owner of a 69 Vista Cruiser....a former US
Embassy > car..here in Quito, Ecuador. Car is in fair condition..NO
rust...and > original paint. Its got that fake wood on lower part of
car..sticker..it > seems to be. Where can I get that? Or anyone got any
ideas of what else to > put there? Two-tone paint job maybe? I need
wheel opening mouldings as > well..are they available anywhere? Are the
69 headlite surrounds (brushed > aluminum) the same as what other
years?? 1970..maybe?

Since I doubt that original woodgrain decal sets are still available
from GM I wouldn't advise trying there. However, I have heard of people
having good luck with getting similar material (adhesive-backed vinyl
woodgrain) from 3M distributors...

If the wheel opening moldings are the same as on other 68-69 Cutlasses
you have to get them used, no repros are made that I know of. They can
be had - I saw in JWO that John Green of Toronto had some for $45 each
- - but you do have to search a little for them. If they are
Vista-specific you are definitely talking salvage yard.

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia,
Canada

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 15:13:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Off-topic, but... (Was Alternator Noise)

>I ask:
> >Did I help, or confuse even further? :)
>
Andy sez:
> The latter. Does the current flow going to the speakers actually
> change direction per cycle (as in Alternating Current), or does it
> keep going in the same direction but at varying voltages?

The former.  Current flow actually changes direction.  In fact,
sometimes when an amp blows, you'll get half of the sinusoid wave (i.e.,
the part of the signal that flows in one direction), which can make your
Pavrotti sound kinda distorted...

For Wizkid:  Speaking of Pavrotti, I got a tape of him with a recent
purchase of a bottle of Frangelico... ya want it? (the tape, not the
bottle :) )

It sort of looks out of place next to my Jimi, Janis, and Doors tapes...
:)


Tim (Bowing to Mike and Others Who's EE is Fresher in Their Minds)
Churchill - ------------- '67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible,
a.k.a. 'Big Red' '89 Cadillac Fleetwood, a.k.a. 'Der KinderWagen' '91
Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 18:15:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Off-topic, but... (Was Alternator Noise)

Andrew C. Green wrote:
>
> >Andrew C. Green wrote:
> Um, no I didn't... I knew sooner or later this attribution line in
this > thread would wind up sitting on top of nothing I actually wrote.
:-)

Oh well, it makes up for the ones you've escaped.   ;)

> The latter. Does the current flow going to the speakers actually
> change direction per cycle (as in Alternating Current), or does it
> keep going in the same direction but at varying voltages?

It changes direction per cycle (though "cycle" a little goofy when we're
 taking about audio).  There is no DC component in the output of an
amplifier.  As Charley has pointed out, it would deflect the speaker
cone in one direction.  If fact, if you're frying speakers for no
apparent reason, DC leakage may be the cause.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #377
********************************
 
