To:	oldsmobile-digest @ ccn.cs.dal.ca @ INTERNET
cc:	 
From:	oldsmobile-digest-owner @ ccn.cs.dal.ca @ INTERNET @ ABTLAB
Date:	09/30/96 02:26:44 PM
Subject:	oldsmobile-digest V1 #316


oldsmobile-digest        Monday, 30 September 1996     Volume 01 : Number 316


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DrkSole@aol.com
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 14:47:08 -0300
Subject: Re: 77 442 

In a message dated 96-09-29 02:52:51 EDT, you write:

>Hi again I'm sure you're sick of this, but I still need those 77 442 
>parts.
>I have a guy who found a header w/o the grills, so I still need the
>passenger side grill.  He also found both bumpers and trunk lid  So I
>still need a Hood and driver side fender and mirror
>
>TIA

Passenger side grill huh? Has anyone ever noticed that on most 73-77
Cutlasses the passenger side grill is almost invariably the side that is
damaged/missing? Almost every one I've seen in the salvage yards is missing
that side...
DrkSole
 73 Cutlass Supreme

------------------------------

From: Chris Fair <ChrisFair@fairisaac.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 15:59:55 -0300
Subject: Electrical Troubleshooting 

Re the 4door with the funky electro problem, that sounds like it might be a 
relay
clicking away audibly. Maybe you should start the trace with the power seat,
window, and other relays that are powered when you have it in drive. If you 
have
cruise control, there might be a relay on that system...

my 5 pfennigs
cf

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 20:34:48 -0300
Subject: Not your average epoxy

I apologize in advance for those who receive two copies of this post.

We have had some discussions in the past about expoxies in general and 
their possible use in Qjets.  During today's Fix-Or-Repair-Daily gig, I 
ran across this epoxy I have mentioned before in the course of my 
crawling around on the garage floor in search of missing tools.  

The manufacturer claims that it is strong enough to be used to repair 
cracked cylinder heads! (I know, but that's what thay say.)  I have used 
it on my sailboat (though not in the motor) and know it to be VERY strong 
and VERY hard.  It is a two-part epoxy available in either white or black 
through marine supply houses (like E&B Marine or US Boats).  I've not 
seen it in auto stores.  

	MARINE-TEX
	Travaco Laboratories
	Chelsea, Mass  02150

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 20:40:19 -0300
Subject: Re: Parts I need um

Nelson wrote:
> 
> I wiped the motor last night at the track.  I guess I finally figured 
> out how long a 425 will run at 5500rpm. 

Ooow!  Major bummer, dude.  Any idea what went wrong?

> What I am looking for it a place to get new/used parts.

You might try to get a hold of Chris Brown Witt, the Rocket Scientist, at 
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu  He's not on the list anymore but you can still 
reach him directly.  The last I talked to him, he still had a couple of 
donor Toros and/or 425s around and he just LOVES to sell parts.

The 66 Toro and Mike

- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Paul Hillman III <hillmap@pr.erau.edu>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 19:02:24 -0300
Subject: 63 bumpers

I was just wondering if the bumpers from a 63 Starfire were used on any 
other cars.  The bumpers off of the 88 look similar, but the guy at the 
junkyard said they were not the same.  I wasn't sure since I couldn't 
compare the two.
Anyone know?


Paul Hillman III
hillmap@pr.erau.edu
ERAU Electrical Engineer
1984 300ZX NA
1963 Starfire HT

------------------------------

From: OLDSPWR@aol.com
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 21:55:35 -0300
Subject: Solid Web 403 Mondello B.S. 

Yesterday I went to look at a 69 442 Convertible with a friend of mine.
 Since he is pretty much a Pontiac guy, he asked me to tag along.  He
mentioned that the first time he looked at the car there was a 403 with a set
of K heads sitting on the pass floor.  So this made me even more curious to
look at the car.  So when I went to look at the car I took Mondello's tech
book along to check the numbers on the 403 block (and anything else we might
stumble upon).  Well as luck would have it, the casting number was
554990 4A. Just what Mondello said would be a solid web - "The block casting
number
behind the the timing cover between the oil fill tube and the oil sending
unit usually is 557265 4B and the solid web is 557265-4A or 554990-4A"  So
just I as saw the 4A and said holy sh*t, my buddy says there is no oil pan on
the motor and looks underneath and said it had windowed webs.  So much to my
dismay, I look underneath it myself, and sure enough, he wasn't lying... big
holes in the webs.  Just great I think....  

So here is the moral to the story:  When looking for one of the elusive 2500
solid web blocks, do not trust the casting number alone.... drop the pan and
make sure for your own benefit.

Tom Millard OLDSPWR@aol.com
79 Cutlass -> Street/Strip/Show 
86 442 -> Summer Driver 
79 Cutlass -> Winter Bomb 

------------------------------

From: WMACHINES@aol.com
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 22:09:44 -0300
Subject: Re: Olds Engineers 

In a message dated 96-09-28 12:20:11 EDT, you write:

<< With a name like Dale Smith there must be a bunch of folks with that
moniker.
  I even know another fellow with the same name.  My guess is he still lives
 in the Lansing area  >>

Well my friends, I do have access to Dale Smith.  He is best friends to the
fellow
I told you all about.  The fellow Vance Brady here in Michigan.  At the 96
Mondello
OLDS nats, he sat with us under our tent i.e. Dale Smith and Vance Brady.
I will call Brady tomorrow and get in touch with Dale.

W Machine

------------------------------

From: Chris Blumenstein <bluffin@netins.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 00:09:05 -0300
Subject: Re: 77 442

DrkSole@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 96-09-29 02:52:51 EDT, you write:
> 
> >Hi again I'm sure you're sick of this, but I still need those 77 442
> >parts.
> >I have a guy who found a header w/o the grills, so I still need the
> >passenger side grill.  He also found both bumpers and trunk lid  So I
> >still need a Hood and driver side fender and mirror
> >
> >TIA
> 
> Passenger side grill huh? Has anyone ever noticed that on most 73-77
> Cutlasses the passenger side grill is almost invariably the side that is
> damaged/missing? Almost every one I've seen in the salvage yards is missing
> that side...
> DrkSole
>  73 Cutlass Supreme
>
>
>
>Our 79's grill is also broken the only one I've seen that was ok was the
>73 I had in 76.  So are you saying I'll never find this grill?  I hope 
>not.  By the way thanks again for the direction to the auto farm in Des 
>Moines will try to get there soon.  Do you happen to know a Jim Dank 
>over on E. 42nd St?  Ran a body shop in 76.

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 01:20:22 -0300
Subject: Tri-Power

Got a guy here that says he has a tri-power setup for sale.  He doesn't 
seem to know a whole lot about it (but then neither do I).  He says it's 
"late 50s, early 60s" (?)

Anybody interested, give me a shout.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 22:32:12 -0300
Subject: Exhaust manifold color? 

What was the factory look of an olds exhaust manifold when new? Some have
told me silver, white, gray or black. This is for my 80 442. Thanks!
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com) f-body list since: 5/95
88 Camaro Iroc-Z/28 CFI 305/TH-350....daily driver
81 Camaro 229V6/3spd man....................don't know yet
80 Olds 4-4-2 W-30  350/TH350................show car
75 Hurst/Olds W-25 350/TH350................restoration project

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 22:40:49 -0300
Subject: a Chrysler blue Olds engine? 

While at a swap meet today I came across some neat paint for my 80 350
block. It is made by the POR-15 corporation and is engine block paint.
Supposed to be able to paint over semi-rough surfaces and it sticks
beautiful. Question is, they have a shade of blue made for early 70's
Chrysler 318's that resembles the color on my 80 350 block in many ways. I
can detect only a *very minor* shade difference, I doubt that anybody but an
extremely knowledgeable olds person could tell the diference. Would anybody
see a problem in painting the block with the Chrysler blue if I am restoring
the car for stock appearance? I don't see why not as this paint is so
identical the differences seem trivial. Just thought I would throw the topic
out for comments.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com) f-body list since: 5/95
88 Camaro Iroc-Z/28 CFI 305/TH-350....daily driver
81 Camaro 229V6/3spd man....................don't know yet
80 Olds 4-4-2 W-30  350/TH350................show car
75 Hurst/Olds W-25 350/TH350................restoration project

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 22:43:38 -0300
Subject: Any POR-15 users? 

I am ready to park the 442 for the year and start the detailing necessary to
make this car 100% mint. Has anyone ever used POR-15 to paint their frame?
What is the factory correct color for an olds frame? Is it Black, Semi-Gloss
Black or Gloss Black? Would I paint the firewall the same color as the
frame? I plan to paint the whole frame, suspension items, firewall with the
POR-15 (stuff in the red can). I see there is a POR-15 chassis black but
that requires a few more steps to apply than just brushing on (as the red
POR-15 can claims). In fact the red POR-15 can says that rusted surfaces are
the best ones to apply the paint to. Anyways I want to get the right shade
of black to make my car look as factory original as I can get. Thanks.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com) f-body list since: 5/95
88 Camaro Iroc-Z/28 CFI 305/TH-350....daily driver
81 Camaro 229V6/3spd man....................don't know yet
80 Olds 4-4-2 W-30  350/TH350................show car
75 Hurst/Olds W-25 350/TH350................restoration project

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 22:46:03 -0300
Subject: Re: 77 442

>> Passenger side grill huh? Has anyone ever noticed that on most 73-77
>> Cutlasses the passenger side grill is almost invariably the side that is
>> damaged/missing? Almost every one I've seen in the salvage yards is missing
>> that side...

The passenger side grille on both my 75 H/O and the parts car 75 H/O had the
connecting tabe broken. The grilles were just barely hanging in place.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com) f-body list since: 5/95
88 Camaro Iroc-Z/28 CFI 305/TH-350....daily driver
81 Camaro 229V6/3spd man....................don't know yet
80 Olds 4-4-2 W-30  350/TH350................show car
75 Hurst/Olds W-25 350/TH350................restoration project

------------------------------

From: DrkSole@aol.com
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 22:40:29 -0300
Subject: Re: 77 442 

In a message dated 96-09-29 21:14:37 EDT, you write:

>>Our 79's grill is also broken the only one I've seen that was ok was the
>>73 I had in 76.  So are you saying I'll never find this grill?  I hope 
>>not.  By the way thanks again for the direction to the auto farm in Des 
>>Moines will try to get there soon.  Do you happen to know a Jim Dank 
>>over on E. 42nd St?  Ran a body shop in 76.
>
>

No, you can find the grill, just probably not in a salvage yard. Look in
hemmings motor news, you can find alot of good parts there. Don't know Jim
Dank, I've only lived here for 5 years.
DrkSole
 73 Cutlass Supreme

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 23:46:58 -0300
Subject: Re: 63 bumpers 

In a message dated 96-09-29 18:13:25 EDT, you write:

> I was just wondering if the bumpers from a 63 Starfire were used on any 
>  other cars.  The bumpers off of the 88 look similar, but the guy at the 
>  junkyard said they were not the same.

Don't have any information to confirm or deny this, but I think they are the
same.  I looked in the '63 Dealer Facts Book and both the front and rear
bumpers look like they interchange between 88s and Starfires.  Ninety Eight
rear bumpers are intirely different.  Maybe that's where he's getting
confused.

Paul

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 23:46:59 -0300
Subject: Jetstar 88s 

Well, I was at least partially right...

I made a comment here a little while ago about Jetstar 88s having the brake
and suspension system from the full size Chevrolets.  This seemed to mildly
ruffle the feathers of a '64 owner here.  Well, I should have researched a
little more before I "spoke", but I don't think I was entirely wrong.  I was
looking for the article that gave me the information that I misquoted and
have finally found it.  This is an excerpt from an OCA chapter newsletter
concerning the confusion between Starfires, Jetfires and Jetstars.  It read
as follows:

...And if that's not enough to thoroughly muddle you, there's the 1964
through '66 Jetstar 88.  This was a full line of cars, introduced as an
entry-level budget-priced full-size Olds.  To cut costs, these cars, which
used the full-size Olds body shells, were equipped with the 9 1/2-inch brakes
used on the Cutlass (intermediate) models (other full-size Oldsmobiles had
11-inch brakes), the Cutlass drivetrain (330 and usually a JetAway 2-speed
automatic, although a 3-speed column-shifter manual transmission was
standard, and some full-size Chevrolet suspension parts...

So I did see the "C" word somewhere.  That just proves that they do come in
handy for something every now and again.  My apologies for generalizing.
 This article is appoximately two years old and I should have referred to it
rather than going on memory.  That always seems to get me in trouble.

Paul

------------------------------

From: "Graham Stewart" <graham.stewart@utoronto.ca>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 00:08:02 -0300
Subject: Re: 63 bumpers

> I was just wondering if the bumpers from a 63 Starfire were used on any 
> other cars.  The bumpers off of the 88 look similar, but the guy at the 
> junkyard said they were not the same.  I wasn't sure since I couldn't 
> compare the two.
> Anyone know?

> Paul Hillman III

Hi Paul: are you talking front or rear, or both?
1. My Olds parts catalog lists all 1963 full size Olds front bumpers as
being the same (looks right from the pictures I can find).  
2. It lists the 63 Starfire as having the same rear bumper as the 88 and
Super 88 models, except station wagons (also looks right from the
pictures).

Hope this helps.

Graham Stewart
Toronto, Canada
graham.stewart@utoronto.ca

------------------------------

From: "Jason P. Labay" <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:20:56 -0300
Subject: Re: interior pieces-parts for a 1969 98

tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com wrote:
> 
>   I've got a laundry list of odds-n-ends type interior pieces-parts
> that I need for Tiny.  I'll spare everybody posting the whole darn
> thing here, but if anyone knows of a good source for things kinds of
> things please contact me.  What I'd really like to do is find a car
> in a salvage yard somewhere that had a good interior but a twisted
> frame or something (so I didn't try to save that one too! :)
>   Other related question -- is it possible to somehow "re-chrome"
> plastic pieces such as the turn signal switch or the tilt lever?
> The "chrome" (is it really chrome or just shinely paint?) is flaking
> off the ones I have.  I thought about trying to put some clear-coat
> on there to get the remaining chrome to stay, but it's really to far
> gone at this point to bother with.


I am parting out a 4-door 1969 Delta 88 with a mint blue interior. Would 
any 88 pieces work on a 98? If so let me know and I will tell you if I 
have it.
- -- 
Jason Labay (z28cfi@gwis.com) f-list since: 5/95
88 Iroc-Z/28............daily driver
80 Olds 442 W-30........show car
75 Hurst/Olds W-25......restoration project
74 Riviera Stage I 455..winter ride

------------------------------

From: holgate@juno.com (David T. Holgate) 
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 04:04:45 -0300
Subject: Vin-body-engine Id #'s??

Could someone please tell me the exact information I need off of my car
to identify my 1970 Cutlass? I saw messages a while back that dealt with
this. I need to know the person's E-mail address as well that is
providing this great service for identifying our cars! Thanks in
advance!

Dave Holgate
(holgate@juno.com)

------------------------------

From: dk0009@epfl2.epflbalto.org (Douglas Kitchener)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 01:26:35 -0300
Subject: Road Aid

        The Oldsmobile Club of America's Rocket Road Assistance Program
                               by Doug Kitchener
                               8616 Welbeck Way
                            Gaithersburg, MD 20879
                      E-mail dk0009@mail.pratt.lib.md.us

I have volunteered to be the contact point for a new project within the
Oldsmobile Club of America (OCA).  President DeNovi introduced the subject a
few months back in Journey With Olds.  The Rocket Road Assistance Program will
consist of a network of club members throughout the US and Canada who (whom?)
you can call for help in case your car should break down while you're
travelling in their area.  These folks will be able to advise you on local
towing services, repair facilities, parts sources and the like for your
vintage Rocket.  We'll also help out if you happen to be driving some kind of
inferior brand of tow vehicle, or even if, for some unknown reason, you're on
the road without the Oldsmobile and your Hyundai Effluent poops out.  Some of
the people in our program may have some technical knowledge and be able to
lend a hand themselves, others may be able to refer you to assistance, but in
all cases we're a point of contact or the first link in a chain, with our
membership in OCA and our love of Oldsmobiles being a common thread.  There
is, of course, no charge for our advice, and the only catch (it's a big one!)
is that you must be a stranded OCA member.  Now for all the legal disclaimer
stuff; what transpires between you and anybody we may recommend is between you
and them!  We were just trying to help!

The idea behind this program is to give you a helping hand and get you going
again if you have car trouble while travelling.  It's meant to help out folks
in emergencies, and is separate from the OCA Advisor Program which is more for
advice on restorations and strategic technical stuff.  This will start out as
a list of contacts by state, which will be reprinted regularly in _Journey
With Olds_, the club's monthly publication, and available from me by sending
an email or SASE.  Eventually, we may be able to release it as a glove-box-
sized booklet with other information and travel tips.  My task will be to
maintain the list of contacts and publicize the program.

Right now we're looking for other members to help out in the program.  You
don't necessarily have to know how to fix a car yourself; what we need are
people in various parts of the US and Canada who are willing to help out other
OCA members should they have a breakdown.  If you'd like to volunteer to help
in this program, please drop me a line (e-mail or s-mail is better than by
phone for this) with your name, address, phone number, what kind of radius
around your home you'd be available for, and, if you're in a large
metropolitan area, the name of that principle city.  If you have a specific
area of expertise with cars in general or Oldsmobiles in particular, please
include that information as well.  Remember, you don't have to have the
technical knowledge of how to fix a car; all that we ask is that you're
willing to help out a fellow OCA member in need.  If you have questions, drop
me a note with an SASE.  I'll try and contact you as I hear from you;
meanwhile watch subsequent issues of JWO for updates on OCA's new Rocket Road
Assistance Program!

My immediate goal for the Rocket Road Assistance Program is to have at least a
limited network in place before we all take off for Lansing and Oldsmobile's
Centennial Celebration next August.  The only problem is that if you do have
trouble en route to Lansing, you may not be able to reach anyone because
they'll probably be on the way there also!  What I would suggest is that you
plan to have your problems early on that particular trip, so that no one else
will have left home yet!  (Humor, people!)

To start things rolling, I'll be a contact in the Washington DC / Baltimore MD
area, for a radius of 50 miles or so around my home town of Gaithersburg, MD. 
If you get within striking distance of DC and have car troubles, give me a
call at 301/948-4867 and I'll try to help!  (By the way, we'd be happy to have
more than one contact for any given area.)
Personally, I think that this is an idea whose time has come, particularly
since I had what turned out to be, fortunately, relatively minor problems both
going out to and coming back from the 1990 OCA Nationals in Ohio (subsequent
trips to other National Meets have fortunately been trouble-free!).  More
recently, a member of the Starfire-Jetstar 1 Chapter was here in the DC area
for a car show and feared he was having differential troubles.  In the end, it
turned out to be nothing, but some of us were able to offer advice and we were
confident about getting the member's car fixed, had there been a problem.  And
you've seen many similar stories before in Journey With Olds.  Many of us hit
the road every summer for local, regional and national car shows and swap
meets as well as ordinary vacations; it would be nice to know that there are
club members you can call for assistance on the off-chance that your
Oldsmobile leaves you stranded and it's too old to be covered by The Edge
(it's over The Edge?).

And before I leave you, here's a freebee from the Rocket Road Assistance
Program.  This is a checklist of maintenance items which I developed when my
maintenance records got out of control with seven cars.  These items should be
checked monthly, and before leaving on a trip.  Any comments and/or additions
are welcome.  Lansing in '97! -Doug Kitchener

PS-the checklist was done in WordPerfect and converted to text, so I hope it
looks OK!

PPS- Regrettably, I've had to temporarily unsubscribe to both the Oldsmobile
and Toronado newsgroups due to the sheer volume of information that's
generated, so if you have any questions or comments or would like to help out
with this program, please get in touch with me directly!  
Thanks!                  
           Vehicle Maintenance Checklist


                                 Vehicle Information

               Date __________________     Mileage __________________

   Color(s) __________ Year ____ Make __________ Model __________ Body
__________


                            Underhood Fluid Level Checks

          Coolant ______  W/S Washer Solvent ______  Power Steering ______

                      Oil ______  Brake Fluid ______  ATF______


                                  Drive Belt Checks

                     Alternator ______   P/S ______   A/C ______


                             Cooling System Hose Checks

               Upper Radiator Hose ______  Lower Radiator Hose ______

       Upper Heater Hose ______  Lower Heater Hose ______   Bypass Hose ______


                               Lighting System Checks

          Headlamps, Low  Beam:     Left ______  Right ______

          Headlamps, High Beam:     Left ______  ______  Right ______  ______
                                          
          Parking Lamps:            Left ______  Right ______
                                          
          Front Turn Signals:       Left ______  Right ______
                                          
          Left Side Marker Lamps:   Front ______  Rear ______

          Right Side Marker Lamps:  Rear ______  Front ______
                                          
          Taillamps:  Left ______ ______  Right ______ ______
                                          
          Brake/Turn Signal Lamps:  Left ______ ______  Right ______ ______

                          License Plate Lamp (Rear) ______

                      Backup Lamps:  Left ______  Right ______
                                          

                                Tire Pressure Checks

    LF ______ PSI  LR ______ PSI  Spare ______ PSI  RR ______ PSI  RF ______
PSI 

------------------------------

From: Drew <senko@reston.ans.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 01:36:05 -0300
Subject: Re: Car Show Urbana MD

Jim Howes <howesj@nasd.com> wrote:

> I don't know how many local Olds enthusiast I am speaking to but My
> son's School is having a (benefits Sports and band) show.  This is open
> to all, Hot Rods, Antiques, Show Cars, Vettes, horse & buggies, You get
> the idea.
> Hours are 09:00 to 17:00, weather looks good right now.
> Location is Rt. 355 & Rt. 80 Urbana, Maryland.  About 15 Min from
> Frederick MD.


Well, I went.  Jim were you there?  It rained a few times throughout the
afternoon.  The total Oldsmobile participation was 2.  My '71 Cutlass
Supreme convertible, and a 1956 88 hardtop.  Mostly Chevies and Fords.  Also
a good number of Pontiacs and Mopars.  I did not see a single Buick.  I was
also suprised that I had the only GM A-body car from 68-72.  The only
Chevelles and GTO's that showed up were circa 1966.  Also only one
Corvette, and that was a '78.

My car was in class 2:  Stock 1950-1972.  A pretty broad class.  They
decided that there were enough cars to break it into three categories: GM,
Ford, and Mopar.  The judging was on a 60 point scale.  I don't know my
score, but I didn't expect to be competitive with the Chevies.  There were
about 17 classes in the show, including trucks.  They gave one first place
award and one second place award in each category.

I thought there were a lot of hot rods there from 1932-1940.  Fords, a
Dodge, a Plymouth, and a couple of Chevies.  Probably over a dozen.  They
expected the show to be much larger, but the rain kept a lot of folks
away.  I was told by the organizer that 108 cars were checked in that day.
Why didn't I bring a camera?  I'll know next time.

The weather wasn't great, but I was most disappointed with the People's
Choice winner:  a Chevy S-10 pickup (lowrider I presume).  Throughout the
lot, you could see cars that were up to 60 years old.  The owners probably
had to search long and hard for parts to complete the restoration.  The
trucks on the other hand, were bought within the last few years, and
modified with readily available parts.  It just pales in comparison, IMHO.
- -- 
                    _
                    |\            Convertibles                     
     .__====-_._____|_\______         Rule!                        Drew Senko
     [   ___  |-     |  ___  \                           senko@reston.ans.net
     =\_//.\\_|______|_//.\\__)                  http://members.gnn.com/senko
_________\_/____________\_/__________________________________________________

------------------------------

From: "Gregory G. Kalkhoff" <gkalkhof@execpc.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 04:13:51 -0300
Subject: Re: a Chrysler blue Olds engine?

Jason Labay wrote:
> 
> While at a swap meet today I came across some neat paint for my 80 350
> block. It is made by the POR-15 corporation and is engine block paint.
> Supposed to be able to paint over semi-rough surfaces and it sticks
> beautiful. Question is, they have a shade of blue made for early 70's
> Chrysler 318's that resembles the color on my 80 350 block in many ways. I
> can detect only a *very minor* shade difference, I doubt that anybody but an
> extremely knowledgeable olds person could tell the diference.

Jason,

Not sure if this helps, but here goes;

A few years ago I found myself having to take the intake manifold and tappit 
covers of 
my (since sold) 68 Toro. As it was 7:30 PM on a Saturday and was committed to 
the job, I 
had to run (not walk) to the nearest parts store (schlock outfit) to get the 
appropriate 
paint. Well, Schlock Auto parts did not have Olds Slate Blue...so I bought 
(what I 
thought was close) Chrysler Hemi Blue! Well, it was blue alright...like a 
Robbins Egg! 
It looked cool anyway and prolly helped sell the car when I dumped it! But, it 
wasn't 
even close to Slate Blue! Luckily the goof who bought the car didn't even know 
it was 
front wheel drive, so engine paint color at that point became ultra moot!

Guess he liked the glasspacks and the rumble of the 455!

Sparky (Would you buy a car from THIS guy?)
- -- 
Greg Kalkhoff                                      Driven Images
4217 W. Fond du Lac Ave.                http://cpeq.com/~edison3/dihome.html
Milwaukee, WI.  53216	
414-447-7500

------------------------------

From: Ryan Hehn <hehnr@cwconnect.ca>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 02:16:03 -0300
Subject: Engine trouble

Hello all,

I have a question regarding some engine problems I've been having in my
81 Cutlass.  This is a car that I've owned for a number of years.  Last
year it was stolen and written off.  The car sat in a compound for a few
months before I bought it back at an insurance auction.

When I first tried starting it up, it just wouldn't go.  The carb
needed to be rebuilt.  Fine, I had that done.  The engine still
runs like crap though.  It surges and won't keep going under heavy
load.  Adjusting the timing has no noticeable effect, and neither does
adjusting the carburetor in any way.  Does anyone have any suggestions?

BTW, since GM of Canada didn't think us Canucks needed to have Olds
engines in Olds cars, the car has a 267 Chev. V/8.  The carb is a
Rochester Dualjet 210.  No computer control. (thanks to lesser pollution
laws in Canada back then)

Ryan Hehn
hehnr@cwconnect.ca
81 Cutlass Supreme Brougham 267 V/8
86 Cutlass Supreme 305 V/8

------------------------------

From: Ryan Hehn <hehnr@cwconnect.ca>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 02:23:33 -0300
Subject: Diagnostics

I have a question about these GM Code readers that are for sale all over
the place.  They claim to work on all GM cars 82-whenever.  

My question is this - I have an 86 Cutlass with a 305.  It is a 
Canadian built car with no computer control.  However, there is
an interface for the code reader located under the radio.  Is
this just a dummy?  Or are some minimal diagnostics provided?

Thanks!

Ryan Hehn
hehnr@cwconnect.ca
81 Cutlass Supreme Brougham 267 V/8
86 Cutlass Supreme 305 V/8

------------------------------

From: David1756@aol.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 02:24:05 -0300
Subject: Re: Chicago Olds list 

>     Jeff,
     
 >       As I last left it, there was some difficulty in getting >everybody 

>together at an acceptable time.  I proposed a week ago that >we go ahead
with 
>next Sunday.  I saw no comments for or against.  I am still >game for
Sunday.  
>Let's hear from everybody.  How about suggestions for >alternate times for a
meet
>if the game is still a show stopper?  

>       To reiterate the current plan, it is to meet at the >Schaumburg 
>Fuddrukkers on Golf Road West of Rt. 53.  

As for me I intend to be there (but will have to bring at least two of the
kids so be prepared for noise).  What time?

David Wilk
(Glencoe)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 04:53:23 -0300
Subject: Re: Engine trouble 

Does anyone have any suggestions?
>
 the car has a 267 Chev. V/8. 
                   ^^^^  <---  Here's your first problem...
               ^^^  <---  Here's your second!   :)

     Seriously, though...  Did you change oil, plugs, cap & rotor, and plug
wires?  How about fuel filter?  Is it still the ten year old gas in the
tank?  Also a good idea to flush and clean cooling system about now, too,
although it's not likely related to the problems here.
     How about a compression test, etc?  Since the car was stolen, odds are
(I hate to be the one to break it to you...) they most likely did not drive
it like Grandma did!  They may have ran her hard until it died, then ditched
it and stole something else.  They may have overheated the snot out of it,
and blew head gaskets, etc.  
     <<<OR>>> 
               IT COULD JUST BE A cHEVY!   :)

     Good luck, I'm hoping it's one of the first suggestions (the easy ones...)


     
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 04:53:25 -0300
Subject: Re: Diagnostics and code readers (kinda long) 

>I have a question about these GM Code readers that are for sale all over
>the place.  They claim to work on all GM cars 82-whenever.  
>
>My question is this - I have an 86 Cutlass with a 305.  It is a 
>Canadian built car with no computer control.  However, there is
>an interface for the code reader located under the radio.  Is
>this just a dummy?  Or are some minimal diagnostics provided?

     That's hard to say, I guess.  Can you look at the connector to
determine if there are any wires there?  Does the car have a Check Engine,
or Service Engine Soon light?  The car may have a computer to control the
lockup convertor, etc.  Does the car have a standard vacuum advance
distributer, too?  Some cars had different degrees of computer control, I
think.  Some (the common ones) used a feedback system with an O2 sensor, and
the clicker carbs, with timing control, etc.  Some may have just done
timing, I'm not sure.  I guess this probably doesn't help much, but there it
is anyway.

     As for the code readers, I wouldn't recommend paying a cent for them,
tho.  ESPECIALLY for the GM ones.  You can do the same thing with a paper
clip.  AND, nine times out of ten they send you in the wrong direction
anyway.  The real diagnostics comes from interpreting ~why~ that code was
set, rather than what the code is.  An example would be an oxygen sensor
code. (There are at least three codes for them, I think)  If you don't know
the system, and you read an O2 code, most mechanics just replace the O2
sensor and send it out the door.  That's what these code readers are trying
to do.  However there are dozens of things that will flag an O2 sensor code,
and the Oxygen sensor is SELDOM one of them.  Choke sticking, plugged air
cleaner, vacuum leak, PCV and EVAP systems all can cause an out of range O2
reading, which will flag one of two codes.  It seems fairly dumb to replace
the Oxygen sensor when the fuel pump is ruptured and dumping gas into the
oil which is going through the PCV valve, and causing the car to run rich!
It happens.  It could also be wiring problems (loose, damaged, or corroded
terminals) which will not be corrected by replacement. 
     Another example would be the MAP (vacuum) sensor.  Computer flags a MAP
code, change the MAP sensor.  That's how many do it.  They don't stop to
think that there could be a broken or restricted vacuum line, or a cracked
intake, etc.  They just change the part because they think the computer has
done all the work for them.  More of the mentality behind these code readers.
     I saw an ad for a code reader boasting "Find out if your getting ripped
off by your mechanic."  I laughed.  Then I got pi@@ed!  Usually all it takes
is a comeback problem to figure ~that~ out.  These black boxes won't tell
you squat about the quality of your mechanic  (Unless he replaced exactly
what the code reader said to!)  
     Basically, unless you have the right service manual and a good
understanding of the logistics of the systems, a code reader will do you
absolutely no good.  And if you DO posess the above items, you know that the
code reader will STILL do you no good, because you can jumper A to B and
read the Check Engine light!  As far as I'm concerned, the only one ripping
anyone off is the code reader companies!
     Scan tools are a completely different story, by the way.  They are
*very* useful.  (my little "knowledge disclaimer!")  Still equally worthless
if you don't know how to interpret the information they provide, though.

     Anyway, I hope this helps someone out somewhat.  I don't know if it
tells you squat about your car or question, but...    :)
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:08:30 -0300
Subject: Re: Diagnostics 

>I have a question about these GM Code readers that are for sale 
>all over the place.  They claim to work on all GM cars 82-whenever.

'81-up actually. I think there's now an upper limit of 1993 or 1994;
my '93 has the same connector, but I think the '94s onwards are using
On-Board Diagnostics (OBD) or OBD II, which is equally cool but uses
different procedures. Car & Driver magazine had a very good article
on the subject a few months ago. The basic idea was that all brands
would become more standardized, so that among other things you'd need
only one set of diagnostics tools to work on all brands of car.

But getting back to the main point, those GM "Code Readers" (which
always seem to be priced at $29.95) are just barely this side of a
ripoff. I will happily send you _TWO_ GM Code Readers for that same
price, which not only do a bang-up job of putting the ECM into diagnostic
mode, doing self-tests and dumping stored fault codes, but in a pinch can
also be used to hold sheets of paper together. My GM service manual calls
it a... um... wait, let me doublecheck this first... (rustle, rustle...
mm-hmmm... flip, flip, flip...  uh-huh... flip, flip) ah, here we are:

a paper clip. Now, when the official factory service manual is telling
you to use a paper clip, it's a safe bet you do not need a $29.95 "code
reader".

There _is_ a real scan tool which you would use for more detailed tests
and diagnostic procedures. These are available on the open market, but
for three figures, and go way beyond simply reading error codes. But for
your purposes, a paper clip and a service manual is all you need. And,
heck, once you've extracted the codes you can check back with us, too.
I can send you an entire memo on how to get the codes out with a paper
clip if you want.

>My question is this - I have an 86 Cutlass with a 305.  It is a 
>Canadian built car with no computer control.

Um, says who? To begin with, do you have an amber "Check Engine" light 
on the dash which comes when you start the car?

>However, there is
>an interface for the code reader located under the radio.  Is
>this just a dummy?  Or are some minimal diagnostics provided?

I really think you have a computer in there. Is there a fuse in the
fusebox marked "ECM"? And what does your owners' manual say about the
"Check Engine" warning light in the section on dashboard controls?

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Esko Ilola <esko.ilola@tele.telebox.fi>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:12:47 -0300
Subject: RE:  Plastic Chrome

> my recollection.  I'm guessing that the process is similar to that used for
> printed circuit boards.

Well, that was a quess. And the answer is partially Yes and mainly No.

The copper is placed over the blank board mechanically. The whole board is
evenly plated. The wiring image is painted by some method over the copper
layer. For prototypes they use UV-sensitive laquer and for large quantities
a silk-press is used. The copper lying under the laquer is left untouch when
the board is dipped into etching solution.

In multi-layer boards, the holes are plated with the process you mentioned.

BTW, today they "drill" the holes using a water siphon.

Polycarbonate and other plastics that are not 'fatty' can be plated by
aluminium just by putting them into vacuum and bombing them with aluminium
atoms. The atoms come from a piece of, yes, aluminium that is heated but NOT
smelted. The atoms are 'shooted' using strong magnetic field and voltages
high enough killing almost anything.

In electronic microscopes they plate the preparate using a very similar 
process.
The objects are not knobs etc. but viruses. Amazing how they do it.

One solution to plate a plastic part with nickel or chrome is to plate it first
with graphite (remember the distributor joke). After this it is possible to
plate it with electrolysis. I think they used this method in the sixties.

My uncle runned a chrome-platery here in Finland. Unfortunately he is dead now
and I can't benefit this no more. When he lived, I had my motorcycle almost
totally chrome-plated. I think it didn't look nice after all.

I asked just for curiosity the local prizes and had the following answers:

All jobs include full preparation from a rusty piece into shine chrome

1 US$ == 4 FIM

A WW-bumper      1000 FIM
Vent cover       400  FIM
Wheel cover      200  FIM

Unfortunately the company has only 1.8 metres long pool, so they cannot
plate longer items than that. As bumpers.

If You have significantly higher prizes and if you tolerate the lenghty
shipping, then there could be a point to do this job in Finland.

The company is very proud of it's reputation in making the job well.

- -- 
**********************************************
* Esko Ilola                                 *
* Email esko.ilola@tele.telebox.fi           *
* X400  G=esko S=ilola O=tele A=mailnet C=fi *
* Tel.  +358 2040 3439                       *
* Mail  Ukonkivenpolku 7B5                   *
*       01610 VANTAA                         *
*       FINLAND                              *
**********************************************
* Oldsmobile Ninety Eight 1964               *
*            Holiday Sports Sedan (4D HT)    *
**********************************************

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:13:46 -0300
Subject: Re: Chicago Olds list 

>As for me I intend to be there (but will have to bring at least two 
>of the kids so be prepared for noise).  What time?

I think High Noon had been mentioned, so that we could all eat lunch,
watch the Bears los^H^H^Hplay and still have time for car browsing.
As for noise, well, we're not _that_ far from O'Hare anyway so the
kids will be drowned out occasionally. (And _do_ bring kids so that
my two-year-old will have some company.)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Timothy A. Churchill" <tac3550@egbsun1.draper.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:01:03 -0300
Subject: Re: Plastic Chrome

Greg sed:

> I wrote to one of the companies that advertised in Hemmings a couple of 
> years ago about this... called Mr. G's I think. Seems to me that they 
> sent a good description of what they do in the material they sent me, 
> which is at home. I'll take a look tonight and post what I find here.
> 
> I can tell you that it isn't cheap. I was interested in plastic chroming 
> the pair of armrest bases in my '64, and it would have been over $100 as 
> I recollect. They are now painted chrome silver... not as good but much 
> cheaper!

I had Big Red's plastic instrument panel restored a couple of years ago.
I talked to the folks at Mr. G's -- the woman I spoke with was a little
haughty, sort of acting like they were the only game in town.  Turned
me right off...

Eneded going with another outfit I saw in Hemmings, called Arizona Plastic
Chrome.  The prices were within $20 - $30 of Mr. G's (Arizona was cheaper,
FWIW), but the gent I talked to (the owner I believe) *really* knew his
stuff, it seemed.

I got a core from 'The Goat Farmer of Oklahoma' (yeah, he likes them Ponchos,
but he has a lotta Cutlass stuff too), and sent it to Az Plastic Chrome...
several weeks later, I got a beautiful instrument cluster back.  They did the
chrome, the silver and black areas, and they even polished the instrument
cluster clear plastic.

'bout $200 for the work from Az Chrome, and $100 for the core from the Goat
Farmer.

Hope this helps!



Tim (Who's Blue 'cuz He Already Put Big Red in Winter Hibernation) Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'89 Cadillac Fleetwood, nickname yet to be determined
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

From: mefco@sprynet.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:17:42 -0300
Subject: Re: Tri-Power

Mike,
I checked with a friend who has a 57 and he's interested in the intake. 

Art Fuller
mefco@sprynet.com

------------------------------

From: Frank Boerger <103454.317@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:22:32 -0300
Subject: Mustang List (non-Olds related)

A non-internet friend has run into trouble installing a 429 and C-6 in his '71
Mustang.

He has asked if I could check for a help list similar to the Olds list where he
might find some advice.

Thanking all in advance for your help.

Frank Boerger//'68 C/S Convertible//'68 Coupe-de-parts
Tallahassee, FL

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 11:27:33 -0300
Subject: Re: Tri-Power 

Got a guy here that says he has a tri-power setup for sale.  He doesn't 
seem to know a whole lot about it (but then neither do I).  He says it's 
"late 50s, early 60s" (?)
          
          Mike,
          
          Olds tripower setups come in two flavors:
          
          The J-2, made in 1957 and 1958, used three Rochester 2GC 
          carbs on a cast iron manifold.  The end carbs were vacuum 
          actuated and had large vacuum diaphragms attached (although 
          aftermarket mechanical linkages are available).  The air 
          cleaner is a large (I believe painted) unit which covers all 
          three carbs and uses two air filters, one on each side of 
          the engine.  I seem to recall that these are oil bath units 
          (somebody help me here).  This unit came on the old-style 
          371 V-8s.
          
          The L-69, made in 1966, was available only on the 442 
          (although it was also sold over-the-counter at dealerships). 
          It also used three Rochester 2GC carbs on a cast iron 
          manifold.  A progressive mechanical linkage connected the 
          end carbs to the center.  Three individual chrome open 
          element air cleaners were used, except on the W-30 option, 
          which used a single diamond shaped chrome air cleaner to 
          cover all three carbs.  The individual small air filters 
          mounted inside the housing and the two OAI hoses hooked up 
          on the underside of the housing.  This manifold fits all 
          late-model big blocks (400, 425, 455).
          
          Speaking as an A-body snob, the L-69 unit is worth more that 
          the J-2 (simply because more J-2s were produced).  Complete 
          units obviously bring bigger bucks, and a 66 W-30 setup 
          would be incredible (only 54 cars sold plus an unknown 
          number of dealer-installed and sold setups).
          
          I call first dibs if it is a 66 unit, however I suspect it 
          is the earlier unit.
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30
          

------------------------------

From: Joanne Beausoleil <jbeausol@ftp.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:36:03 -0300
Subject: Pressure Check

Hi,

Pros and cons of pressure checking the coolant system? I have always had it 
done every year for the past 6 years so that I can find leaks in the 
convenience of 
a repair shop instead of on 93 south in rush hour traffic. I was also told 
that now 
that the car is getting on in years... I may be just asking for 
trouble....Opinions?
Experiences?

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 11:38:33 -0300
Subject: Re: Diagnostics 

I have a question about these GM Code readers that are for sale all over 
the place.  They claim to work on all GM cars 82-whenever.  
          
My question is this - I have an 86 Cutlass with a 305.  It is a 
Canadian built car with no computer control.  However, there is 
an interface for the code reader located under the radio.  Is 
this just a dummy?  Or are some minimal diagnostics provided?
          
          I can't speak for the Canadian version of the car, but if it 
          does have a computer (and I think it probably does), I have 
          to echo the comments of others and say pass on the code 
          reader.  A paper clip and a list of codes will do the same 
          thing through the "Check Engine" light.
          
          On the other hand, this only works for hard failures which 
          set codes.  Intermittent failures (like the one in the 85 
          Calais 500 Pace Car I used to own) are impossible to find 
          with the "paper clip/codes" process.  I wholeheartedly 
          recommend a company called Diacom (I'll find the contact 
          info) which sells software and a serial cable to let you 
          connect a laptop to your 82-up GM (Chrysler also available). 
          This has the advantage of not only displaying the codes, but 
          also allowing you to access _all_ of the telemetry in the 
          engine computer.  In addition, the software has a "record" 
          feature, so that if you drive around with your laptop hooked 
          up and the dreaded intermittent problen arises, immediately 
          hit the spacebar to write the next ten seconds of data to 
          disk.
          
          BTW, I finally solved the problem in the Calais by selling 
          the car - it was only the Iron Duke 4 cyl anyway.  Traded it 
          in an a car that could really accelerate...an Audi 5000 :)
          
          Yeah, I know, I've used that joke here before...sorry
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 09:33:35 -0300
Subject: Re: Electrical troubleshooting 

>Have you checked what the brake lights are doing while the noise
>is on? Is there even a hint of dimming of one or both in time with
>the clicking noise? Do either of the front turns signal lights 
>dimly glow?

I like this idea. I also like someone else's, but had to pick one
or the other to hit "Reply" on.  :-)  Glowing front turn signals
would point to a bad turn signal switch, a bad taillight socket
ground or a shorted socket (e.g. an 1156 bulb in a double-contact
1157 socket).

First of all, I think it would be good to verify that all four rear
bulbs are good: splurge $3.00 on a set of four new 1157 bulbs from
G.E. or some such (i.e. not the Mexican specials from K mart). This
will rule out some whacko bulb drawing massive current, or in worst
cases some idiot who shoved an 1156 backup bulb in a socket back there
and shorted the brake circuit to the taillights. Watch the bulbs in
back to see if they light properly and evenly. Test twice, once with
taillights off, once with them on, and look for differences each time
in the way the brake lights come on. Any wackiness which changes depending
on whether the taillights were on at the time is usually a bad ground.

Stepping on the brake does cause a hefty current surge as the car tries
to heat four high-intensity filaments at once. A marginal regulator might
cause audible clicking under the sudden load. If you can reproduce the
noise at will, have someone press on the brake while you listen under
the hood to see if the noise comes from the regulator on the firewall.
If you can't get close enough to it, press a wooden stick or length of
broomstick against the case of the regulator and listen to the other
end.

>The reason I'm asking is, the turn signal switch in the steering 
>column is interconnected with the brake light switch in such a way
>that the turn signal for the side that's supposed to be blinking 
>doesn't get a solid "ON" when the brake pedal is pressed. The 
>clicking noise could be the turn signal flasher can making a vague 
>attempt to operate, but not really being able to manage it because 
>the brake lights are on and the turn signal switch isn't solidly 
>turned to one direction or the other.

Hmmm. The brake switch is "upstream" from the turn signal switch,
so brake current always goes through the switch to get to the bulbs,
but if the switch cuts in the turn signal circuit unexpectedly, or
partially, I don't know that you'd hear the flasher unit buzzing since
it has its own upstream power supply; it doesn't get it from the brake 
pedal. But stranger things have happened, so I think you should take
Spud's advice and see if the flasher can is buzzing. I think on your
car it's clipped to the lower edge of the dash so that the clicker
will resonate, so if it's buzzing, you certainly would hear it. Make
sure you find the turn signal flasher, and not the four-way emergency
flasher which may look similar.

Is this clicking rhythmic or erratic? Can you make it occur at will?
Does it make a difference whether some accessories or lights are on?
I think I've shot off all my ammunition here.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:49:01 -0300
Subject: Re: Mustang List (non-Olds related)

Frank Boerger wrote:
> 
> A non-internet friend has run into trouble installing a 429 and C-6 in 
> his '71 Mustang.

See the Fordnatics at http://www.chucko.com:80/fordnatics/

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 11:48:12 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Anyone need 66 442 parts? 

Ken wrote:
> 
>   I have a 66 442 Convertible I'm gutting to get the frame.  Any of you guys 
need anything off this beast before I fire up the torches?
> 
> Ken
> Cleveland, Oh
          Ken,
          
          YES YES YES
          
          Please email me directly
          
          Thanks
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442 Converitble in dire need of lots!!!
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 09:42:26 -0300
Subject: Re: Pressure Check 

>Pros and cons of pressure checking the coolant system? I have always 
>had it  done every year for the past 6 years so that I can find leaks
>in the convenience of  a repair shop instead of on 93 south in rush 
>hour traffic. I was also told that now that the car is getting on in 
>years... I may be just asking for trouble....Opinions?

I cannot imagine what the "cons" might be. Only thing I would add is
to not forget to pressure-test the cap as well as the system. But if
the price of paying someone else to do this is bugging you, I would
certainly just buy the little pump tester yourself; it should pay
for itself pretty quickly.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:50:43 -0300
Subject: Re: Tri-Power

Art Fuller wrote:
> 
> I checked with a friend who has a 57 and he's interested in the intake.

I'll see what I can find out.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:54:21 -0300
Subject: Re: Tri-Power

Joe wrote:
> 
>
>           Speaking as an A-body snob, the L-69 unit is worth more that
>           the J-2 (simply because more J-2s were produced).

Got any idea of price?  This guy's not a friend of mine so before I 
get ahold of him, I'd like to have some idea.

>           I call first dibs if it is a 66 unit, 

Understood.

The 66 Toro and Mike


- -- 
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 11:53:39 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Does anyone know this guy? (Mich area) 

Now Jack is racing ford Mustangs, due to FoMoCo are giving him the cars.
          
W MACHINES
          
          Actually, the real problem is that Olds pulled out of NHRA 
          racing sponsorship at the end of last season to persue IMSA 
          and now IRL.  It's that nasty owner demographics thing.
          
          Pontiac is now the official GM drag racing division, thus 
          the switch to Firebirds by Warren Johnson et al.  :(
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          
          66 442
          68 W-30
          69 H/O
          70 W-30

------------------------------

From: Daniel Gulino <gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 11:22:42 -0300
Subject: Re: Jetstar 88s 

At 11:46 PM 9/29/96 -0300, PHartlieb@aol.com wrote:
>Well, I was at least partially right...
>
>I made a comment here a little while ago about Jetstar 88s having the brake
>and suspension system from the full size Chevrolets.  This seemed to mildly
>ruffle the feathers of a '64 owner here.  

That might have been me, but I wasn't really upset.  Just fulfilling my
self-appointed role as the Jetstar police.  I owned my '64 Jetstar 88 for
five years before selling it last June, and I spent considerable time during
those five years correcting people's misperceptions about the car.  The most
common was that it contained a "Powerglide" transmission.  About the only
things the Jetaway and the Powerglide had in common is that both were
2-speed automatics and both were available on GM cars.  

The other common misconception was that the Jetstar I and Jetstar 88 were
similar.  Again, about the only thing that these cars had in common was
their full-size body shell and that each had the word "Jetstar" somewhere in
their name.  As you noted, the Jetstar 88 was a full-sized shell on
Cutlass/F-85 mechanicals.  The Jetstar I was a Dynamic 88 underneath with a
sport-coupe body shell designed to be a low-priced Starfire that could more
directly compete with the Pontiac GTO.


Dan Gulino


************************************************
Daniel A. Gulino
Associate Professor and Graduate Chairman
Department of Chemical Engineering
Ohio University
Athens, Ohio  45701-2979
(614) 593-1495
(614) 593-0873 (fax)
gulino@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu
http://www.ent.ohiou.edu/che/faculty/gulino.html
************************************************

------------------------------

From: JPADA@hqgate.orbital.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:28:41 -0300
Subject: Re[2]: Tri-Power 

Joe wrote:
> 
>
>           Speaking as an A-body snob, the L-69 unit is worth more that 
>           the J-2 (simply because more J-2s were produced).
          
Got any idea of price?  This guy's not a friend of mine so before I 
get ahold of him, I'd like to have some idea.
          
          
          About $5? ;) 
          
          Seriously, a complete 66 setup typically goes for between 
          $500 and $600, depending on condition (yes, I've seen people 
          in Hemmings _asking_ much more).  Obviously, if pieces are 
          missing, the unit is worth less.  The W-30 parts are so rare 
          and come up for sale so infrequently that it is really hard 
          to put a price on them.
          
          Sorry, I can't help with the J-2 pricing.
          
          Joe Padavano
          jpada@hqgate.orbital.com
          

------------------------------

From: Chris Blumenstein <bluffin@netins.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:56:43 -0300
Subject: Hauling needed

I am in need of someone who could haul an Olds from Ohio to Iowa, if any 
one can help email me direct
TIA :-)

------------------------------

From: tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:01:51 -0300
Subject: Re: E-mail Garbage

> Several messages that were posted to the list have come to me 
> looking like this:
> 
> eJ8+IioQAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQe... 
> 
> Am I the only one? 

You're not the only one.  I also see them (I'm on digest)  They are 
"base64" encoded files that are of type "application/ms-tnef". 
As far as I can tell this means they have a nicer font and formatting.
They are essentially duplicates of the info provided in the text sections 
(if you see those).  I decoded one once to make sure it jived with the 
plaintext and it did.  Haven't bothered to check since.  I think 
either Netscrap or M$IE or both use this encoding to send "prettier"
mail messages.  Since I don't have either available to me here I can't
test that...

- --
Travis McWaters                           Transmission Products Division
tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com               DSC Communications Corporation

------------------------------

From: Patty Marshal <pmarshal@airmail.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 07:11:36 -0300
Subject: W-30 or not? 

How do you tell if your 1970 442 is a W-30 or not?
It is a holiday coupe produced in Lansing.  

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 05:20:48 -0300
Subject: Re: a Chrysler blue Olds engine? 

     POR makes some good stuff.  Their engine paint is no doubt good 
     quality.  Personally, if the color is that close to a match then I 
     doubt that anyone would ever notice unless your car is lined up 
     between 10 other Old's at a show to compare it to.  If they notice, 
     the judges may knock off a few points.  If you're not showing it, I 
     think all of the Olds fans that I know would be extrememly happy that 
     you at least _tried_ to match the color rather than paint it that d*mn 
     orange. . .


______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
Subject: a Chrysler blue Olds engine?
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    9/29/96 7:05 PM


While at a swap meet today I came across some neat paint for my 80 350 
block. It is made by the POR-15 corporation and is engine block paint. 
Supposed to be able to paint over semi-rough surfaces and it sticks 
beautiful. Question is, they have a shade of blue made for early 70's 
Chrysler 318's that resembles the color on my 80 350 block in many ways. I 
can detect only a *very minor* shade difference, I doubt that anybody but an 
extremely knowledgeable olds person could tell the diference. Would anybody 
see a problem in painting the block with the Chrysler blue if I am restoring 
the car for stock appearance? I don't see why not as this paint is so 
identical the differences seem trivial. Just thought I would throw the topic 
out for comments.

------------------------------

From: Todd Morris <tmorris@bt1dc18e.bet.ibm.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:28:54 -0300
Subject: Polygraphite front ends 

 
Hey gang, I had planned on buying a polygraphite front end kit from PST to 
install this fall 
on my 442.  But a friend said use stock rubber instead, the polygraphite rides 
too harsh, 
like a truck.  First time I'd heard that opinion.  What think ye?  Anybody 
_regret_ doing 
polygraphite?? 
 
Todd Morris 
71 442

------------------------------

From: Dave Isho <davei-2@mail.idt.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:49:47 -0300
Subject: Re: Polygraphite front ends 

At 01:28 PM 9/30/96 -0300, you wrote:
> 
>Hey gang, I had planned on buying a polygraphite front end kit from PST to
install this fall 
>on my 442.  But a friend said use stock rubber instead, the polygraphite
rides too harsh, 
>like a truck.  First time I'd heard that opinion.  What think ye?  Anybody
_regret_ doing 
>polygraphite?? 
> 
>Todd Morris 
>71 442

Todd I have the kit from PST and love it. I don't think it is too harsh, a
better word to describe it would be firm. It is not bone jarring anyway.
After all that is a 442 you have not one of those cushy toros or 98's :).
No offense folks!!!

 >Dave Isho --- davei-2@mail.idt.net
     >67 Cutlass CS Convertible...up on jackstands again!!
     

------------------------------

From: Trent Bates <tabates@spieg.interealm.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:58:11 -0300
Subject: Re: a Chrysler blue Olds engine?

Tom Lentz wrote:
> 
>      POR makes some good stuff.  Their engine paint is no doubt good
>      quality.  Personally, if the color is that close to a match then I
>      doubt that anyone would ever notice unless your car is lined up
>      between 10 other Old's at a show to compare it to.  If they notice,
>      the judges may knock off a few points.  If you're not showing it, I
>      think all of the Olds fans that I know would be extrememly happy that
>      you at least _tried_ to match the color rather than paint it that d*mn
>      orange. . .
> 
> ______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
> Subject: a Chrysler blue Olds engine?
> Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
> Date:    9/29/96 7:05 PM
> 
> While at a swap meet today I came across some neat paint for my 80 350
> block. It is made by the POR-15 corporation and is engine block paint.
> Supposed to be able to paint over semi-rough surfaces and it sticks
> beautiful. Question is, they have a shade of blue made for early 70's
> Chrysler 318's that resembles the color on my 80 350 block in many ways. I
> can detect only a *very minor* shade difference, I doubt that anybody but an
> extremely knowledgeable olds person could tell the diference. Would anybody
> see a problem in painting the block with the Chrysler blue if I am restoring
> the car for stock appearance? I don't see why not as this paint is so
> identical the differences seem trivial. Just thought I would throw the topic
> out for comments.

I might be able to help out here. My '78 Olds Cutlass Supreme came with
the Chevy 305 LG4 engine. The color I use to paint it with is G.M.
Corporate Blue #221 from Plastikote. It is an exact match to the
original. That is the color that the Chevy engines were painted that
were destined for GMC trucks and other G.M. Corp. engines.
Hope this helps!
- -- 
                                              tabates@interealm.com  

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 05:50:49 -0300
Subject: Re: Diagnostics 

     I think by '86 all the GM cars, Canadian or American, were made with 
     computers.  You didn't have a choice, even if Canada may not have 
     required them that was the way GM was making them for many reasons.
     
     Don't get the GM code reader.  Just use a paper-clip to short the top 
     two passenger side pins on that diagnostic connecter and then turn the 
     ignition key on (don't start the car, just turn to on).  The Check 
     Engine (or Service Engine Soon) light will flash out the code.  The 
     problem now is interpreting the codes.  The code readers come with a 
     chart that says what all the codes are, and sometimes they come with a 
     diagnostic chart that will tell you what the likely causes of each 
     code are.  Look upon the error codes as more of symptoms or clues as 
     to what is really wrong, don't assume that what the error code says is 
     broken is broken.  If you don't have such a chart in a Service Manual, 
     Haynes, or Chiltons manual, then buy one.  Except for the Service 
     Manual, they cost less than the code reader.
     
     There are honest-to-god code Scanners, which are a completely 
     different animal, and much much more expensive (too much for the home 
     mechanic).  These can be hooked up to show the data coming from your 
     car in "real time", and are invaluable if you're trained to use one.
     
     Tom L.

______________________________ Reply Separator 
_________________________________
Subject: Diagnostics
Author:  oldsmobile@ccn.cs.dal.ca at INTERNET
Date:    9/29/96 10:36 PM


I have a question about these GM Code readers that are for sale all over 
the place.  They claim to work on all GM cars 82-whenever.  
     
My question is this - I have an 86 Cutlass with a 305.  It is a 
Canadian built car with no computer control.  However, there is 
an interface for the code reader located under the radio.  Is 
this just a dummy?  Or are some minimal diagnostics provided?

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:15:30 -0300
Subject: Re: Polygraphite front ends 

>After all that is a 442 you have not one of those cushy toros or 98's :).
>No offense folks!!!

     Yup!  Cushy's Cool, but Firm is Fun!
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: Robert Barry <rbarry@SEQUENT1.PROVIDENCE.EDU>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:03:31 -0300
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Tri-Power 

At 11:28 AM 9/30/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Joe wrote:
>>           Speaking as an A-body snob, the L-69 unit is worth more that 
>>           the J-2 (simply because more J-2s were produced).
>          
>Got any idea of price?  This guy's not a friend of mine so before I 
>get ahold of him, I'd like to have some idea.

If it is in fact a J-2 manifold, w/o carbs, it really isn't worth all that
much. Apparently, all late-50's _2-bbl_ Olds motors used the 3x2-bbl intake
with the end carb openings blocked off. Thus, there are boatloads of these
things out there w/o the end carbs. I've regularly seen them for about $50
in the local trader paper.

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:15:31 -0300
Subject: Re: Heads Up! --More sightings-- 

     Well, in the last two days I've seen two more mid 90's Gran Prix's in
town with Head Up Displays.  They're out there, just waiting to be found!
Apparantly they were more popular than I'd figured.  I saw one this morning
on a 94-ish? GP that had a different projector that was molded into the
dash.  Instead of the big clumsy box on the dash, there was a wide rounded
pod that looked like it was part of the dash, with a small window in the
middle of it.  THAT was cool.  It was clean, I had to look twice at that
one!  The one I saw yesterday was the same as the one I have.  I saw it when
I was driving by it.  VERY visible big box on top!
     Anyway, for those asking or wonderring, they're out there.  Go Get Um!
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:14:22 -0300
Subject: Re: Rear view mirror rust

Several people have suggested that I get the rear view mirror "re-silvered".
I didn't know that this was something you could do with mirrors, so
it never crossed my mind until now.  I understand how it would work
but I'm left wondering if the day/night stuff in the mirror would
make that more difficult if not impossible.  Has anyone done this
before(on a car mirror or other)?  If so how much did it cost (roughly)?

- --
Travis McWaters                           Transmission Products Division
tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com               DSC Communications Corporation

------------------------------

From: tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:13:14 -0300
Subject: Re: interior pieces-parts for a 1969 98

> >  I've got a laundry list of odds-n-ends type interior pieces-parts
> > that I need for Tiny.  
> 
> Fire away!  I've got one that fits the description to a point.  (The
> frame ~is~ twisted up like a pretzel!)  Interior's rough, but ya never 
> know.... 
> 
> Oh, you ~can't~ have the tilt/telescopic, either!  If it's still good, 
> it has a home in my GranSport!

Fair enough.  I prefer the "regular" wheel anyway.  I tried a tilt/tele
wheel once and it just didn't feel right in my hands.  Side note -- if
anybody has a black "regular" wheel, that's on my list of "would like"
parts. (didn't quite make the "need" list -- not yet anyway).


> I've got a pic of it, but it's really small.  I'll do some playing with it
> and see if I can put that on my page someday.  

I saw the pic you mentioned.  You're right to say that it came out 
fuzzy.  If I didn't know what that was supposed to be I never would
have guessed :)

> Anyway, how 'bout that list?

Ok, First off when there is a question of color, the car's interior
is black.  However I'll be happy to take other color parts and try
to paint them whenever possible.  In no particular order - 
 - Headlight switch knob.
 - Correct cigar lighters for front and rear.
 - Clock -- mine is stopped, not sure why.
 - All three(?) air "deflectors" (where the AC comes out)
 - the "under-dash" duct work for the AC/heater vents (some jerks
   smashed mine while they were fumbling around stealing my <aftermarket>
   radio)
 - Plastic cover for the seatbelt "rollers" on the front seat.  The ones
   I'm talking about are the "outermost" set of seatbelts.  On the 'vert
   these are mounted right about where the front seet folds so that
   peole can get in the rear seat.  If the seatbelts are black and not
   sun-faded like mine I could use the whole set.
 - Rear view mirror - as per discussion earlier I may try to just have
   mine re-silvered.  If it doesn't have the builtin light I may still be
   interested.  I might be able to just put new glass in the case I have.
 - the Console package.  I'd calle it the gauges but it's really only a
   speeo, a fuel gauge, and some lights.  This is a low priority deal
   so I wouldn't fuss over it unless you've got the dash apart anyway
   (say to remove the steering coumn :) ).  I've had some fuel gauge 
   troubles that make me suspect that my console package is not conducting
   as well as it could/should.  Also I'd like to explore the idea of
   replacing some of the lights with gauges, but only if I can do it
   without ruining the look of the dash (ie no aftermarket gauges).
   I think it can be done, but I don't want to tear up my only unit
   on this idea.  If I mess it up I need a way out. :)
 - turn signal and tile arms.  The ones I have are flaking off their
   "chrome" (whatever the shiney stuff is).  Since you want the column
   and it's a tilt/tele column thes are probalby not an option, but 
   I put them down anyway incase someone else has them sitting around.
   
These are actually exterior pieces:
 - "lower windshield reveal, right hand side".  This is an exterior trim
   piece that screws on to the rt front fender and covers about 6" worth 
   of metal in the corner between the hood and the door.  That's about the
   best way I can think of to describe it.  The quoted text is was they
   called it in the body manual.  Just follow the chrome around the front
   windshield and I think you'll see what I mean.  There are two 6" pieces
   in the lower corners.  That's them.  I have the left hand side one,
   need the right.
 - trunk lock exterior cover plate.  Should have a "98" logo on it 
   similar to what is on the nose, I think.  Some years past a yahoo in
   a 1 ton truck rear ended Tiny and the trunk lock cover was damaged
   beyond repair.  I have a mechanism and a replacement cover off a
   88 (I think) from around 73 (I think).  Anyway it's just a rocket
   logo and not the slick "slide away to reveal the keyhole" 98 logo.
   No big deal but it still makes me scoff every time I open the trunk.
 - Driver's side mirror, all pieces internal and external.  In other 
   words I need the mirror itself and the wire "guts" for the interior
   adjustment stuff.
 - power antenna.  This is a "would like" part not a "need it" part.
   I'd need the whole power unit and also the switch in the dashboard.


There are probably other parts I've forgotten, but this list is already
too long.  I will of course be happy to pay shipping charges and whatever
a "fair market value" is for any of the above parts.   The best thing 
for me would be to sit down with a parts car and just look.  It's really
hard to describe some of these things.  I'll be happy to go anywhere 
within a day or so drive of Dallas.  Other places are a posibility but
I'd need to plan far in advance.


- - Travis and the 69 olds 98 convertible aka "Tiny"
- --
Travis McWaters                           Transmission Products Division
tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com               DSC Communications Corporation

------------------------------

From: tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:16:06 -0300
Subject: Bondo vs FRP question

> Bondo and fiberglassing are two different critters.  While I'm 
> violently opposed to bondo, I've got no problems with fiberglass 
> (more properly referred to as Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic or FRP).

So is FRP intended to be a drop in replacement for bondo?  What I mean
is that if I were doing some body work (which I've never done before
by the way), could I (more or less) follow the instructions on how
to use bondo but use FRP instead?  Is all of the dent pulling, priming,
sanding, painting, etc more or less the same for either material? 
Any special considerations when using FRP instead of bondo?

- - Travis and the 69 olds 98 convertible aka "Tiny"
- --
Travis McWaters                           Transmission Products Division
tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com               DSC Communications Corporation

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:35:52 -0300
Subject: Re: a Chrysler blue Olds engine?

At 05:20 AM 9/30/96 -0300, Tom Lentz wrote:
>
>     POR makes some good stuff.  Their engine paint is no doubt good 
>     quality.  Personally, if the color is that close to a match then I 
>     doubt that anyone would ever notice unless your car is lined up 
>     between 10 other Old's at a show to compare it to.  If they notice, 
>     the judges may knock off a few points.  If you're not showing it, I 
>     think all of the Olds fans that I know would be extrememly happy that 
>     you at least _tried_ to match the color rather than paint it that d*mn 
>     orange. . .

Aww, but I just want to paint it Chevy orange sooo bad:) While at the swap
meet yesterday I seen a 1986 Chevy Pickup with an E-head 455, dual snorkel
air cleaner. It was a nice custom truck and yes, the 455 Olds was painted
Chevy orange.
>
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Jason Labay  Akron, Ohio (z28cfi@gwis.com) f-body list since: 5/95
88 Camaro Iroc-Z/28 CFI 305/TH-350....daily driver
81 Camaro 229V6/3spd man....................don't know yet
80 Olds 4-4-2 W-30  350/TH350................show car
75 Hurst/Olds W-25 350/TH350................restoration project

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:20:07 -0300
Subject: Re: Diagnostics 

>     Don't get the GM code reader.  Just use a paper-clip to short the top 
>     two passenger side pins on that diagnostic connecter and then turn the 
>     ignition key on (don't start the car, just turn to on).  The Check 
>     Engine (or Service Engine Soon) light will flash out the code.

Pardon a nitpick, but on older cars such as my '82, you _do_ have to start
the engine before getting the code readout; all you get with the ignition
on is a code 12 (No Tach Ref) which indicates that diagnostics are working.
If you're not sure whether or not to start the engine for your particular
car, just wait for the third "12" to go by. If it continues with code 12
or any others, you do not need to start the engine. If it stops after the
third code 12, start the engine and look for any additional codes.

>Look upon the error codes as more of symptoms or clues as 
>     to what is really wrong, don't assume that what the error code says is 
>     broken is broken.  If you don't have such a chart in a Service Manual, 
>     Haynes, or Chiltons manual, then buy one.

Yes indeedy. The code charts are in those manuals, and those manuals are
in the local public library for free, remember...

>     There are honest-to-god code Scanners, which are a completely 
>     different animal, and much much more expensive (too much for the home 
>     mechanic).  These can be hooked up to show the data coming from your 
>     car in "real time", and are invaluable if you're trained to use one.

One of these days I'm going to see if my wife will let me buy one.  ;-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:36:16 -0300
Subject: Re: Mustang List (non-Olds related) 

>A non-internet friend has run into trouble installing a 429 and C-6 in his '71
>Mustang.
>
     Odds are, he's doing ~something~ wrong.  My guess is he's actually
shoving a 455 into a Starfire, but just made a couple typos!??

     I've seen top ten lists for F***s, but that's all I've noticed (which
doesn't mean much.  Anytime I see ~that~ four letter word without some other
form of a four letter word in front of it, I don't bother reading on!!!   :)
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:36:18 -0300
Subject: Re: Tri-Power   Mee-Toooo! 

>>           I call first dibs if it is a 66 unit, 
>
>Understood.

     Yeah, count me as a second, just in case???
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:36:26 -0300
Subject: Re: Does anyone know this guy? (Mich area) 

>
>>Well you are in luck.  I have met Jack and Don.  They have a 83 H/O that runs
>>10's with a 307.  Jack McCormick owns a performance tire store here in
>>Lincoln
>>Park, Michingan.  About every 4 years here enters his race car in the Detroit
>>
>>Autorama, and I have talked to him extensively.  He just opened a second
>>store
>>here in MI, so his time is very limited.  The name of  his stores are
>>Jack McCormick Racing performance tires and rims.  I the next few weeks I 
>>will be running into old Jack, and I will ask him about  surfing the net.

Oh, yeah.  If you get a chance, maybe try to get pics of his car (not the
ford!)  All I've seen of it is what I've got scanned on my page.  Updates
would be cool, since that was '84!  
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:36:13 -0300
Subject: Re: Diagnostics 

>     Don't get the GM code reader.  Just use a paper-clip to short the top 
>     two passenger side pins on that diagnostic connecter and then turn the 
>     ignition key on (don't start the car, just turn to on).  
   
     Be careful here, though.  Some of the connectors got put in there
bass-ackwards,  and even upside down.  Running from memory I'm pretty sure
it's A to B, but it's been a while.  One that used to work awesome on the
Rockit was a fuse.  The wall between a & b was gone (broken or just not
there, I don't know) but a fuse would go in there perfectly (one leg hanging
out of the plug, the other leg connecting the two.  That worked slick!  The
newer connectors won't let that happen, I know.  Then there's OBD-II (and
III) those are completely different.  No scan tool, no dice.  I believe they
started the running changes to OBD-II in '95?  All new carlines then were
required to run the new system, and by 1997, all new models were required to
run OBD-II (which, as someone else pointed out, ~is~ really cool, despite
public/motorhead opinions.)  What else can detect a 10% misfire AND tell you
what cylinder it's in?

    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:29:03 -0300
Subject: Re: Heads Up! --More sightings-- 

>     Well, in the last two days I've seen two more mid 90's Gran Prix's in
>town with Head Up Displays.  They're out there, just waiting to be found!
>Apparantly they were more popular than I'd figured.  I saw one this morning
>on a 94-ish? GP that had a different projector that was molded into the
>dash.

My '93 SSEi has the same thing. "Cool" doesn't begin to describe this
thing; once you have driven a car with this display you will never want
to go back. Too bad there isn't a retrofit kit so you can put one on,
say, a '67 442: It would be a big round thing with a chrome trim ring,
and instead of a digital readout there'd be this big round speedometer
dial and needle reflected in your windshield.  :-)

>Instead of the big clumsy box on the dash, there was a wide rounded
>pod that looked like it was part of the dash, with a small window in the
>middle of it.  THAT was cool.  It was clean, I had to look twice at that
>one!  The one I saw yesterday was the same as the one I have.  I saw it
>when I was driving by it.  VERY visible big box on top!

I think the "box" is the Olds design; there is a circa-'91 Cutlass Int'l
Series at the local train station with one. Pontiac likes the slightly
melted, all-curves look on its interior and so goes with a dashtop molding
that smoothes out the big bump on the top of the dash where the projector
housing sticks up. This molding also houses sensors for daylight level and
sunlight intensity for the twilight sentinel and HVAC systems respectively.

>     Anyway, for those asking or wondering, they're out there.  Go Get Um!

Since you've done the retrofit, maybe you can post a little checklist of
the items needed from the junkyard? There's more to the system than just
the projector housing...

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:34:15 -0300
Subject: Re: interior pieces-parts for a 1969 98 

> - Correct cigar lighters for front and rear.
> - Clock -- mine is stopped, not sure why.

If the wrong cigar lighters blew their fuse, your clock would stop
too. If the fuse for clock/lighters/courtesy lights is good, usual
wisdom here is to fog the mechanism with a 1-second (max) squirt of
WD-40 through the backlighting holes in the back of the case.

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:44:25 -0300
Subject: Re: Diagnostics 

>     Be careful here, though.  Some of the connectors got put in there
>bass-ackwards,  and even upside down.  Running from memory I'm pretty sure
>it's A to B, but it's been a while.

The outermost wire of the pair is a ground, so if you can see the wire
going in the back of the connector, it should be black. And if you see
a single connector sitting by itself at the diagonally-opposite corner,
if I recall right, grounding _that_ is how you program new transmitters
for your remote keyless-entry system. (I imagine there are people buying
these cars used that don't even know their car _has_ keyless entry, since
the rather-expensive transmitter key fobs can be swiped for other cars.)

>One that used to work awesome on the Rockit was a fuse.  The wall between
>a & b was gone (broken or just not there, I don't know)

Not there. It's molded that way for the reason you describe.

>but a fuse would go in there perfectly (one leg hanging
>out of the plug, the other leg connecting the two.  That worked slick!
[...]
>run OBD-II (which, as someone else pointed out, ~is~ really cool, despite
>public/motorhead opinions.)  What else can detect a 10% misfire AND tell you
>what cylinder it's in?

Do you really want to know? If I tell you, promise you won't hate me.  ;-)

Andrew C. Green            (312) 266-4431
Datalogics, Inc.
441 W. Huron               Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60610-3498    FAX: (312) 266-4473

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:13:20 -0300
Subject: Re: Diagnostics 

>Pardon a nitpick, but on older cars such as my '82, you _do_ have to start
>the engine before getting the code readout; all you get with the ignition
>on is a code 12 (No Tach Ref) 
     which is normal...
     which indicates that diagnostics are working.
>If you're not sure whether or not to start the engine for your particular
>car, just wait for the third "12" to go by. If it continues with code 12
>or any others, you do not need to start the engine. If it stops after the
>third code 12, start the engine and look for any additional codes.

     If no other codes go by after the 12, starting the car should not make
a difference.  Unless there is a malfunction in the ECM, it will dump ~all~
of its stored codes engine on or off.  Starting the car just eliminates that
code 12 (which will still be there as a history code, unless you clear them
before starting the car.  If, with the engine off, all you get is a code 12,
odds are really good that the CCC system is fine.  If there are still
problems with the car, I'd look for basics.  Plugs, wires, carb, etc.  If
the CEL (or SES light) does illuminate, and doesn't flag a code, you may
have some deeper problems.  If all you get is code 12, and the check engine
light does come on during normal operation, you could well have a bad
ignition reference (tach) signal, as well.  This would be one case requiring
the car to be running.  (the only one I can think of)  
     I could be half whacked here, though.  I've never heard of one that
just ~stops~ displaying after code 12.  I'm led to suspect some problem
there, but this is GM we're talking about.  I hate to break the bad news,
but there may have been Chety workers on the Olds lines, (say on Mondays or
Fridays?) and they may have done some strange things (ya know how them chety
guys are!!? :) _)  
     Does anyone else have a car that does this?  Are you using a paper
clip, or a resistor?  There are four different diagnostic modes available
from the ALDL A to B connector, using different resistances.  I don't recall
if they all dump codes or not, but some are "engine running" tests.  I hope
this isn't too rambling here.  I'm adding a bunch of brain wanderrings to
this post, I know!




>
>>Look upon the error codes as more of symptoms or clues as 
>>     to what is really wrong, don't assume that what the error code says is 
>>     broken is broken.  If you don't have such a chart in a Service Manual, 
>>     Haynes, or Chiltons manual, then buy one.
>

     Definate must.  However, you still need to be wary of these.  95% of
the diagnostic trouble trees they give you end up with "replace ECM"  (Or on
some warranty work, DIS-ECM!)  What often happens is a corrosion in
terminals, etc. and a mislead step in the trouble tree somewhere.  The tech.
would follow these, and replace the ECM, and suddenly it would be corrected
(usually because just unplugging the ECM scuffed up the terminals, and the
connection was re-established.  The old ECM was sent back to GM good as new,
and eventually the dealers got reprimanded for warrantying out good
products.  Soooo, some dealers started a true-defect warranty program:  Any
electronics that were to be warrantied got hooked on the south side of a
Distributorless Ignition System's plug wire, and ~~Zap~~ It's bad for sure!
I've heard rumors that that practice actually made it into print in some
manuals, but have never seen it first hand.  Ever wonder where those Rap
guys got the term "dissin' me" to refer to something that wasn't good?
Kinda amusing, if you ask me!  They'd feel pretty "dissed" at 60000 Volts!  
     Anyway, here's me wanderring again.  The thing to make sure is to
double check everything, and realize that only 3% of the time will you ever
need to replace the ECM.  Usually, you have a fairly good idea of that part
before you even start, too.  Ya know, like when you accidentally short out a
solenoid harness under the hood, and the wife starts whining about smoke
from under the dash.....   (Time for a new quad driver...)
     Anyway, that's that!


          
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: Blaine Sanders 5483 <BLAINES@strata3d.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:17:01 -0300
Subject: Bondo vs FRP question -Reply 

>>> <tmcwater@imtn.tpd.dsccc.com> 09/30/96 10:16am >>>
>So is FRP intended to be a drop in replacement for bondo?  What I mean
>is that if I were doing some body work (which I've never done before
>by the way), could I (more or less) follow the instructions on how to
>use bondo but use FRP instead?  Is all of the dent pulling, priming,
>sanding, painting, etc more or less the same for either material?  Any
>special considerations when using FRP instead of bondo?

Travis,
I personally hate bondo, too.  FRP is far superior to bondo, but much
harder to work with.  Yes, its application is exactly the same as bondo,
with one exception:  it sets up fast, and when it does, it's hard as a rock.
 I mean, you have to use a grinder to take it off -- unless you've got a
bionic arm.  For filling very small dents in panels with little or no flex,
bondo is prolly the best thing to use.  But for filling large
dents/creases/crevices, I'd fill it first with 'glass, shape it as best as
possible with a grinder, then finish it with a thin layer of bondo.  Of
course, I don't reccommend filling large dents.  Work the metal until you
only need the least amount of filler.  i.e. - filler is bad!

- -BS

------------------------------

From: Blaine Sanders 5483 <BLAINES@strata3d.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:22:23 -0300
Subject: Kanter / P.S.T. -Reply 

If what you say is true, then the Polygraphite kit from Kanter is the way
to go.  If I remember right, thier deluxe kit is cheaper than PST's, and
includes more parts.  Hmm...

- -BS

------------------------------

From: R4C442@aol.com
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:24:17 -0300
Subject: Re: Anyone need 66 442 parts? 

Does it have air?

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:27:52 -0300
Subject: Re: Diagnostics 

 What else can detect a 10% misfire AND tell you
>>what cylinder it's in?
>
>Do you really want to know? If I tell you, promise you won't hate me.  ;-)

     Ok, "automatically" detect it!  :)  Or is that not what ya meant...
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:27:50 -0300
Subject: Re: interior pieces-parts for a 1969 98 

If the fuse for clock/lighters/courtesy lights is good, usual
>wisdom here is to fog the mechanism with a 1-second (max) squirt of
>WD-40 through the backlighting holes in the back of the case.
     Uh-oh, here we go again!  :)
    
      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #316
********************************
 
