
oldsmobile-digest         Friday, 6 December 1996      Volume 01 : Number 394


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 19:35:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Saving the good stuff

>I started a document in my word processor that I open when I want to save
>something.  Just copy from the list and paste into the file. It's about 20
>pages now and contains all the stuff I consider gems.  Takes up a lot less
>room than saving the whole thing.

Slick plan.  I may have to do similar.  Problem for me is that I'm just too
lazy.  Hell, it's been too much effort just to hit the delete button to get
rid of the ~less-than-keepers~ (which is why I had 40 Meg of ~text~!!! Funny
how computers can make us seek out even shorter shortcuts!

Thanks for the tip, I may well do that.  I'm sure the others on the list
will find that a useful option too.  Later...

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 19:37:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Tasters Choice??  was...Re: Instrument Panel Swap

At 06:43 PM 12/5/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>> >Second question was about a puddle of mysterious black, burnt-smelling
>> >stuff in the depressions of his intake manifold.  We can't figure out
>
>	*snip*
>


>> All have a distinctive smell and taste.
>
>	Hmmm.  Sounds like wine tasting.  (I can just picture it--a bunch
>of gear heads sitting around a fancy table with plastic quart bottles, and
>nice wine glasses...swishing his glass with a circular motion, sniffing,
>one of them says "Hmmm...August '96...exellent month for a nice Red
>ATF...")  Just kidding.
>	
>	Seriously though, I've always thought that gear oil has the worst
>bouquet out of any of them! (Old gear oil is some of the *worst* smelling
>stuff on the planet!)  The only ones I've ever tasted were gasoline
>(testing a fuel line to see if it was plugged...it was'nt, and I got a
>mouthful) and coolant (another long story).  Funny how you learn some of
>these lessons when you're young and...not quite as experienced.  ;) I'd
>have to agree that the stuff in that intake definetly sounds like gas
>varnish though.
>
>				Scott
>			1960 Oldsmobile Rocket 98
>
>
While it does have some parallels to wine tasting, I always though it was
more like what Doctors tasted to determine whether or not, a person had
diabetes!  Of course, I'm talking about the old days, before they had meters
and other neat stuff to do it for them.

The original post on this thread, concerning "...myserious black,
burnt-smelling..." stuff was familiar.  The only difficult one to discern is
the difference between A/T Dexron and motor oil.  A/T fluid is 10wt motor
oil, more or less, with slippers or stickiers added (depending on kind) but
later they added a red dye too.  If you've got a leak it is always easier if
you determine, where to look, by determining what is leaking (type of
fluid)?  That's the purpose of the taste test.  Also, occasionally you can
get as far with smell, and that good ole manual tranmission lube (similar to
rear axle grease) would need to be blowing back out of a dipstick tube on
those rare cars that have dipsticks in their manual trannies.

Also, for those that may not know the red dye in A/T fluid is reactive to
black light, which by the way, is why it is there.

The Wiz

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 19:35:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Tasters Choice??  was...Re: Instrument Panel Swap

>
>> >Second question was about a puddle of mysterious black, burnt-smelling
>> >stuff in the depressions of his intake manifold.  We can't figure out
>
>	*snip*

Fuel soaked carbon deposits?  Sucked in through the PCV system?  Are these
puddles in the intake, or on it?  I had puddles of mysterious black, burnt
smelling stuff pooled on the intake by the heads and valve covers on my 350
once.  It was the wiring split-loom that had melted and ran down there when
I cooked it.  The puddles weren't that big, tho' and they weren't puddles
the next day, they had become solid deposits instead. (as logic would have
it...)
>

>>
>>         1. Engine oil
>>         2. A/T fluid (tranny and power steering)
>>         3. Tranmission grease if manual trans
>>         3. Coolant, usually water and glycol
>>         4. Fuel: Gasoline/diesel fuel, depending on engine type
>>         5. Windshield washer fluid
>>
>> All have a distinctive smell and taste.

You're making me hungry, it's suppertime!

>	Hmmm.  Sounds like wine tasting.
>	
>	Seriously though, I've always thought that gear oil has the worst
>bouquet out of any of them! (Old gear oil is some of the *worst* smelling
>stuff on the planet!)

Don't forget that additive gunk you put in posi's to keep 'em from
chattering.  ~That~ stuff is awful right out of the bottle--just plain
nasty!  I'd ~really~ hate to deal with that stuff when it gets old and burnt!

 The only ones I've ever tasted were

  coolant (another long story).
- --Yep, been there!  Did taste kinda good, tho.  I probably got about a good
cup's worth.  I was a little nervous for a couple days, but it never caused
any problems (whew!)

  Funny how you learn some of
>these lessons when you're young and...not quite as experienced.  ;)
Or when you're older...and not quite as careful!  :)

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 19:43:33 -0400
Subject: Project Olds Craft & Humor for the Holiday

>
>
>Last year, my friend upgraded his GirlFriend 3.1 to GirlFriendPlus 1.0
>(marketing name: Fiancee 1.0).
 < < < S N I P > > >

Excellent!  Definately :)

Bought one of those little throw away cameras today (I think I'm supposed to
use it before I throw it away, right? :-)  I've gotten about 15 shots of the
Rockit so far, and I hope they turn out.  I'll hopefully finish off the film
quickly and get them developed soon, so everyone can see that hood scoop
(providing I get it onto my web page, too) and so I can send that shot in
for "Project Olds Craft."  Is everyone getting ready for that?  Our time is
near :)

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: Greg Kalkhoff <gkalkhof@execpc.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 21:48:48 -0400
Subject: Re: The Golden 66 Toro

Nielsen Design Group wrote:

Darren,

> I will need pipes and those coooool chrome tips. Anybody got some?

There are a few sources who sell the OEM. Try Fusicks, I think thats where I
got mine.

> I may get a brand new NOS 66 Toro carb from Chris Witt; the one on the car
> is not original anyway...

Better if you can get a NOS 67 carb for it, its a much better carb! It will
also fit without any mods.

> What does everyone think?

Enjoy it and drive it!

Sparky!

- --
Greg Kalkhoff                                        See the Sparkmobile
Toronado FAQ Administrator
http://www.442.com/kalkhoff.html http://www.execpc.com/~gkalkhof/torofaqs.htm
AKA "Sparky"

------------------------------

From: Greg Kalkhoff <gkalkhof@execpc.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 22:00:12 -0400
Subject: Re: What year is it?

PHartlieb@aol.com wrote:

> You'd love it at my favorite salvage yard.  One of the first things they do
> is remove the taillights, not just the lenses, but the whole housings!

Hes prolly pretty smart for doing that for three reasons;

1. They can't be stolen
2. They can't get busted
3. They won't weather/fade

Just a guess.

Sparky
- --
Greg Kalkhoff                                        See the Sparkmobile
Toronado FAQ Administrator
http://www.442.com/kalkhoff.html http://www.execpc.com/~gkalkhof/torofaqs.htm
AKA "Sparky"

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 11:56:31 -0400
Subject: Re[2]: '86 442 sensors

     Do these cars have any sort of vacuum sensor?  I never thought they
     did.  If not, how could the computer tell what sort of vacuum you're
     getting?  On a car with a tranny like the TH-350 that has a vacuum
     hose, I could understand.  I always thought that the computer knew how
     much of a load you're putting on the engine by looking at RPMs and the
     TPS.  Am I wrong?  Maybe his tranny problem is as simple as the TV
     cable misadjusted?

     Come to think of it, a plugged cat would definitely cause problems of
     some sort.  The plugged cat would cause low vacuum requiring the
     operator to open the throttle more to get the power he wants.
     Computer sees the throttle open more (via TPS) with low RPM and thinks
     you're under load.  Causing just what you described, except for one
     problem: the only control the computer has over the tranny in these
     cars is the lockup converter (and maybe the shift into OD?).  So we're
     back to the TV cable again.

     Tom Lentz
     tlentz@teknon.com

______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________ Subject: Re: '86 442 sensors Author:
oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca at INTERNET Date:    12/5/96 3:34 PM

You mentioned that it doesn't shift right, aside from all the other
complaints. I'd be interested to see if the catalytic convertor is
plugged up. That can result in a lot of exhaust backpressure, which
confuses the ECM: it sees low vacuum, thinks you're accelerating hard,
and holds the upshifts for as long as possible. Meanwhile you're just
trying to accelerate normally and wondering if the stupid thing is ever
going to go up to the next gear.

------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 12:11:31 -0400
Subject: Re[2]: Saving the good stuff

     Here's a strange idea (I'm thinking big today).  What if someone were
     to save all the posts from this group for a year or more, and
     afterwards have a CD pressed with all the posts on it, plus a search
     engine.  I know that there are search engines available that will take
     care of all the indexing and such for you.  I know I'd want one, and I
     think it could be done for less than $20-$30 per CD if we made 50-100
     of them.

     Tom Lentz
     tlentz@teknon.com

______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________ Subject: Re: Saving the good stuff Author:
oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca at INTERNET Date:    12/5/96 3:49 PM


>I started a document in my word processor that I open when I want to save
>something.  Just copy from the list and paste into the file. It's about 20
>pages now and contains all the stuff I consider gems.  Takes up a lot less
>room than saving the whole thing.


------------------------------

From: "Tom Lentz" <tlentz@teknon.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 12:11:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Project Olds Craft & Humor for the Holiday

     Actually, time is *really* near.  I sent mine off on Monday, along
     with my letter!  If anyone needs details on the Project Olds Craft,
     e-mail me and I'll give you the lowdown.  Let's all get that stuff in
     quick, so they get a bunch of pro-Olds letters at once.

     Tom Lentz
     tlentz@teknon.com

______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________ Subject: Project Olds Craft & Humor for the
Holiday Author:  oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca at INTERNET Date:    12/5/96 4:04
PM


I'll hopefully finish off the film quickly and get them developed soon, so
everyone can see that hood scoop (providing I get it onto my web page, too)
and so I can send that shot in for "Project Olds Craft."  Is everyone getting
ready for that?  Our time is near :)

     Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 20:39:24 -0400
Subject: Wipers

I need help with my wipers.  The drivers side wiper has two "arms", one is
the wiper arm itself, the other is a small "secondary" arm which changes the
position of the wiper blade in relation to the wiper arm as it goes across
the window.  The problem is with the small stud that the secondary arm
mounts to on the wiper, uh, tower(?).  It's almost worn through from 27
years of wiper use.  How do you remove the tower that the wiper arm mounts
to?  Are the wiper towers available repro or NOS?

Thanks...
- --
Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS
dpauliso@gate.net

------------------------------

From: Chuck Rowe <badgeman@tcac.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 20:54:07 -0400
Subject: 82 Toro

While strolling through a local junk yard I spotted a two door 82 Toro. The
body is a salt-free Arkansas body with no rust, no dents. The engine appears
sound. The tail lights and front seat are missing. I can't see any obvious
reason why it is sitting in the junk yard.

Q: What is it worth? (Ballpark figure. Assume engine needs to be rebuilt)

chuck

------------------------------

From: PHartlieb@aol.com
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 21:14:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Options ID

In a message dated 96-12-05 10:11:59 EST, you write:

> What are?
>
>  ARL

You mentioned your car came from Arlington?  Maybe that's what this stands
for.

>  D2D
>  E6L
>  GMD
>  K19
>  NB1
>  NK1
>  YT9
>
>  and what was the body color designated by 62 in 1984 (should be sort of a
>  metallic champagne color)

Light Sable Brown Metallic.  This color looks brown when paired with a brown
interior, but takes on a pink shade (many of our customers called it
Rosewood) when paired with a maroon interior.

>  what was the interior color designated by 77 in 1984 (should be a
burgundy)

Olds called it Maple Red.

>  And what does te B, I, and 9 after the interior color stand for?

Thought these might be stripe and vinyl top codes, but I don't think they
are.  Wish I knew.

Paul

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 21:15:57 -0400
Subject: Recessed valves, carbon

Can recessed valve seats cause an engine to miss?

What do heavy carbon deposits on tops of pistons and spark plugs signify?
What can be done fix it?

That's all, short and sweet.  Thanks.




- --
Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS
dpauliso@gate.net

------------------------------

From: Chris Urban <urbanch@magi.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 21:28:18 -0400
Subject: RE: '69 442 GO FASTER

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBE2EA.DC813320
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Small blocks are a lot more cam sensitive than BB's. As a rule for a street
car with aSB don't go over 490 lift and 230 dur at 0.50 lift.

- ----------
From: 	Bob Valentine[SMTP:ravalent@liii.com]
Sent: 	Thursday, December 05, 1996 3:22 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: 	Re: '69 442 GO FASTER



On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, R Mullen wrote:

>  Dump the W30 cam.  It was hot in '70, but it ain't '70 anymore.  Try a
> JM 20-22 cam (or the next one up).  Makes power everywhere, up to 5500
> or so.


> Scott Mullen

   On the subject of cam choices, I just picked up a "worked" 350 Olds,
complete with adjustable rockers and teflon seals on the heads.    It's
got a unknown cam in it - large enough it only has 9" of vacuum at idle
and barely runs under 3000 rpm.

   Gotta decam it to run as a street motor.   Anyone have any experience
with the JM 18-20 vs. the JM 20-22?

                     -->   Bob Valentine  <--
                    --> ravalent@liii.com  <--
        "Experience varies directly with equipment ruined"






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------------------------------

From: nmichelli@acl.nyit.edu
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 21:31:14 -0400
Subject: Re: GM Quality (in paint)

how old was the car when you went to the dealer.....

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 21:43:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Saving the good stuff

On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Tom Lentz wrote:
>      Here's a strange idea (I'm thinking big today).  What if someone were
>      to save all the posts from this group for a year or more, and
>      afterwards have a CD pressed with all the posts on it, plus a search
>      engine.  I know that there are search engines available that will take
>      care of all the indexing and such for you.  I know I'd want one, and I
>      think it could be done for less than $20-$30 per CD if we made 50-100
>      of them.

I think someone has beat you to this one. I seem to recall that Jeff
Easton has been archiving all of the digests since the early days and has
mentioned that he would someday like to put them out on CD. I'll let him
follow up on this one... hope I'm not putting him on the spot!

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Christian Fair <cfair@fairisaac.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 21:50:52 -0400
Subject: Bill Culp Thanks

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm sure grateful for those detailed
posts on interchangeability that Mr. Culp has been posting lately. I think
we owe him a real debt of gratitude.

My two cents and big thanks!
cf

------------------------------

From: Christian Fair <cfair@fairisaac.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 21:50:50 -0400
Subject: 66 axle codes/Boneyard hints

Here are the meanings of the axle codes for 1966 Oldsmobiles. These codes are
found on the passenger side on the upper side of the tube about midway
between the diff. and end of the tube. It is frequently unreadable or not
there.

The codes from my Olds Chassis Service Manual:

Type O Axle
	Axle Codes
66-68 Full size 	88/Starfire    Teeth 	 Open     Positraction
Jetstar 88	           2.78	       39:14	  RA           RB
Jetstar 88	           3.08	       40:13	  RC           RD
Jetstar 88	           3.23	       42:13	  RE           RF

Dynamic /Delta 88          2.73        41:15	  QA	       QB
Dynamic /Delta 88          2.93	       41:14	  QC	       
QD
Dynamic /Delta 88          3.08	       40:13	  QE           QF
Dynamic /Delta 88          3.23	       42:13	  QG           QH
Dynamic /Delta 88          3.42	       41:12	  QI           QJ

                       98 Ratios       Teeth 	 Open	  
Positraction
98 & 98 Luxury	           2.73	       41:15      QK       
	QL
98 & 98 Luxury	           3.08	       40:13	  QM      
	QN
98 & 98 Luxury	           3.23	       42:13	  QO       
	QP
98 & 98 Luxury	           3.42	       41:12 	  QQ       
	QR

I don't know if this helps, but when I go to the boneyard looking for a
good 3.23 (or even a posi!), I just print this and have a handy-dandy
guide to rear end ratio codes found on ring gears.

BTW, on each GM differential, there is a code on the ring gear which shows
the number of teeth, therefore the ratio. Remove the rear end cover and
read it,
then use the table above to figure the ratio. Or do the long division...

I also have a file with the spares I have on hand and what parts I'm looking
for which goes with me.

Hope this helps.
cf

------------------------------

From: Dave Paulison <dpauliso@gate.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 21:49:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Bill Culp Thanks

At 09:50 PM 12/5/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm sure grateful for those detailed
>posts on interchangeability that Mr. Culp has been posting lately. I think
>we owe him a real debt of gratitude.

Hear, hear!  I'll say it again!  Thanks, Bill!

- --
Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS
dpauliso@gate.net

------------------------------

From: Jeffrey.Easton@add.ssw.abbott.com
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 22:32:45 -0400
Subject: Bravada Advertisments

Has anyone else noticed the two page spreads running in Autoweek?

Last weeks advertisment (probably still on the newstand) had a two
page layout, with a lengthy article on the engineer for the Bravada, who
just happened to be the engineer on the Buick Regal Grand Nationals
in the mid 80's.  It had a good discussion on the balance of power
and handling and what makes a good vehicle.  I though it was rather
interesting.

Tonight I got next weeks issue (dated Dec 9th) and it has another 2 page
spread on the Bravada, this time chronicling a readers two week stint
with the truck.  At the bottom of this ad, it says "next time: Bravada visits
Minneapolis".  This must be a ongoing advertisment.

At the top of each ad in small print there is the tag line "Created for
Oldsmobile by the advertising special projects department of AutoWeek".

Its always exciting to see Olds advertising, since I seem to see so little of
it.  Maybe Heidi can let us in on how this particular series of ads came
about,
as they seem to be rather tastfully done and are a little out of the ordinary.

- -Jeff
jeffrey.easton@add.ssw.abbott.com

1970 442 4-Speed

------------------------------

From: "Laurence Simpson" <LaurenceSimpson@msn.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:39:42 -0400
Subject: 1988 Hurst/Olds reply

To Jeff Stanish re: 88H/O

The kits are no longer available since Doc is no longer in the parts business
as far as I know.  If anybody else does please let me know.  As to what you
could get for an Action kit?  The standard answer is how bad somebody want's
it.  As far a total # of kits made?????  Anybody's guess, but I doubt it was
more that a few hundred.  For sure under 1,000 and probably under 500.  Only
one who knows for sure is Doc and he's not talking.

Larry Simpson
HOCA 88 Advisor

------------------------------

From: John Young <reospeeder@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 22:32:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Strange cars (was: Isetta)

Yeah, it was a Morgan.  Looked kind of like an MG but more
agressive.  They did have steel c-channel frames, the wood that
people like to talk about was the body framers.

I didn't refer to "Window Curtains" I was talking about
"side-curtains", windows on metal frames with leather flaps, etc.,
that attached to the door of roadsters.  That was one of the
distinctions between roadsters and "drop-tops" (convertibles) that
had roll-up windows.

They were really a great little car.  My first one, a '55 with a
"stage-3" tune would regularly eat Porsches around Palos Verdes
(Ca. hilly peninsula) and I even blew off a '58 Rocket 88 from a
stop sign once.

"Mog" owners are a breed apart.  Usually atypical of the standard
sports car owner.  You didn't go for a ride, or go cruising, or even
take a trip, you went motoring.  The destination was the least
important part.  You put the top down, felt the wind and sun, maybe
a little rain, listened to the motor alert to changes thet might
need attention  When it broke down you spread the blanket and had
a picnic, then fixed the car with one of the many spare parts you
had squirrelled away behind the seat.

God it was fun.

Old Dog
70 Cutlass Supreme SX convertible
67 T-Bird

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 17:24:27 -0400
Subject: Re: GM Quality (in paint)

nmichelli@acl.nyit.edu wrote:
>
> how old was the car when you went to the dealer.....


If you're asking me w/the 89 Lebaron, it was about 4 1/2 years old.  I
was told that GM & Ford were having to do the same thing.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 17:29:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Bill Culp Thanks

Dave Paulison wrote:
>
> At 09:50 PM 12/5/96 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm sure grateful for those
detailed > >posts on interchangeability that Mr. Culp has been posting lately.
I think > >we owe him a real debt of gratitude. > > Hear, hear!  I'll say it
again!  Thanks, Bill! > > -- > Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile
Cutlass Supreme > Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS >
dpauliso@gate.net


I want to apologize for this late post.  My fingers have been taking a
rest.  I only have this interchange for a short time yet & I am trying
to figure what would be good before I have to give up my source.

I'm pleased that you like them.  I wasn't sure about the non Olds parts
(Chevy, Buick, etc) but I took a chance on them anyway. (non-Olds
content).

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: DrkSole@aol.com
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 23:40:04 -0400
Subject: What price 67 Delta 88 4dr hdtp

Hello, I haven't been on the list for awhile.  I've got one question, then
I'll leave everyone else alone.  I recently bought a 67 Delta 88 Custom 4door
hardtop from my aunt.  The car is light metallic green with a black vinyl
top, and a green cloth bench seat interior. it has 102k miles, a non-working
clock, a non-sound producing AM radio, a speed warning speedometer,
tilt/telescopic steering, power brakes and steering, the original factory
manual air conditioning-still blows cold air, the heater functions all work,
the car has a 3 speed automatic, I'm pretty sure it's a th400, a single
exhaust, 4barrel, 425 super rocket-10.25:1 compression, C heads, custom
hubcaps, good tires, a rebuilt water pump.  The downside is the upholstery is
slighty ripped from the driver getting in and out of the car, rust coming
through the lower rear edge of both front fenders, the drivers rear quarter
is rusted, and the car was snagged by a UPS truck on the passenger side, the
damage includes a dent in the front door, though it still opens easily, a
crushed rear door, though the glass and interior door panel are still good,
and it needs a new rear passenger quarter panel.  The engine runs well, and
doesn't knock or smoke.  I paid $250 for the car, my dad thinks that was $200
too much. My question is, is $250 too much for this car? I apologise for how
long this post is, but I'll be out of you hair after it is answered
Thank You..
DrkSole
 73 Cutlass Supreme
 67 Delta 88

------------------------------

From: Groundz212@aol.com
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 23:44:33 -0400
Subject: Re: suggestions for making my '69 442 GO FASTER

Well first get rid of the W30 cam too much duration not enough lift go with a
monadello cam (he has got some perfect one's for good hp motors). and which
manifold did you use? A street strip port job and a 3 angle vavle job brought
my motor to life. also if you do all of this a 750cfm carb is probably not
enough go with a 855 vaccum secondary holley. And last I hope you got some
meats on that posi cuase this stup puller will lite them up in a hurry.

------------------------------

From: Blair Rendell <brendell@pi.pro.ec>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 00:05:41 -0400
Subject: CHEAP labour

Hi all....
 Well I just put four Monroe Gasamatic shocks on my Vista here in Quito.
Handling has improved quite a bit but it still really sways in the
turns..guess thats inheirent with 5000lbs of car. The shocks cost me about
80$(similar price in USA?) and get this...3 bucks in labour charges to
install!! Yes..US Dollars..not Sucres..
The guy worked for about an hour and half and last 30mins was in the rain..I
tipped him a buck..  :)  I have a friend for life....
 I am now changing the rear springs as the ones they have installed put the
rear about 5" over stock height. Would those Airbags I have seen advertised
improve handling? The ones that go inside the rear springs....
 And rear sway bar from what car would fit? How about a Chevy Caprice? I
imagine a Cutlass or similar A body would fit....
 If anyone has some answers to this could they reply to my personal address
brendell@pi.pro.ec  as I will be off the mailing list for 2 weeks. Its off
to the Jungle I go to work. yeeyyyy!  Thanks in advance !   Blair 71 442 W30
Convert. in Canada....and a 69 Vista Cruiser in Ecuador...

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 18:03:54 -0400
Subject: Re: What price 67 Delta 88 4dr hdtp

DrkSole@aol.com wrote:
>
> Hello, I haven't been on the list for awhile.  I've got one question, then
> I'll leave everyone else alone.  I recently bought a 67 Delta 88 Custom
4door > hardtop from my aunt.

 I paid $250 for the car, my dad thinks that was $200
> too much. My question is, is $250 too much for this car? I apologise for how
> long this post is, but I'll be out of you hair after it is answered
> Thank You..
> DrkSole
>  73 Cutlass Supreme
>  67 Delta 88


Ask yourself, "What does $250 get you in the world?"  Could you have
more fun spending the $250 somehwere else?  Would it give you more a
sense of pride than a nice old car from your family?  What other car
could you get for $250?

Like has been said by another; Enjoy the ride.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: Barnacle Bill <wreilly@acad.bryant.edu>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 00:19:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Options ID

On Thu, 5 Dec 1996 PHartlieb@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 96-12-05 10:11:59 EST, you write:
>
> > What are?
> >
> >  ARL
>
> You mentioned your car came from Arlington?  Maybe that's what this stands
> for.
>

Good call on this one!!!  I never even made a conection.  My Cutlass was
made in Pontiac Mich. and I have a PON in my options list.  That's
probably what it stands for.  Thanks fo rthe insight.

Bill Reilly
'85 Cutlass Supreme


------------------------------

From: CRuper1@aol.com
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 00:35:03 -0400
Subject: Re: 1970 engine identification... A good laugh.....

In a message dated 96-12-05 01:53:51 EST, you write:

< >3) Is the 250 HP motor considered a Rocket 350?
 >
 > ALL Olds V-8 pushrod engines are considered "Rocket" engines (i.e. "Rocket
 > 260..." ;) >>
 >Now here's a good contradiction of terms.....
 >Chris Ruper

 Well, maybe not quite.  Some very early turbine engines used a recip. to
 turn the main compresor spool.  So if they used a Olds engine to turn the
 compressor, you would at least have the rudements of a Olds powered reaction
 engine.

 Also, not all of their early push rod engines were infact "Rocket."  The
 earliest ones were "Kettering Power!" See "Setting the Pace" p. 220.  Olds
 engines would have remained "Kettering Power" if it weren't for the fact
 that corporate policy disallowed it, so the powers that be, opted for
 "Rocket Power."

 We don't need a flame war, this is intended to be informational only, and if
 you've got your own copy of "Setting the Pace" you can read it for your
self.

 The Wiz >>

Ummm...  I think you read into my reply a little bit too much.  I was
referring to the response/example above saying a "Rocket 260" is a correct
term for the motor since "Rocket" refers to the motor itself, not the
displacements, etc.

If you've ever had a 260 "Rocket" motor in a vehicle, you'd realize that the
term certainly dos not apply here (it is a contradiction in terms because the
260 is such a slouch when it comes to power).

Chris Ruper

------------------------------

From: Chuck Rowe <badgeman@tcac.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 01:37:12 -0400
Subject: Re: What price 67 Delta 88 4dr hdtp

I paid $250 for the car, my dad thinks that was $200
>too much. My question is, is $250 too much for this car? I apologise for how
>long this post is, but I'll be out of you hair after it is answered
>Thank You..
>DrkSole
> 73 Cutlass Supreme
> 67 Delta 88

This is a loaded question. If we agree that it was too much then it will
hurt your feelings. Having recently just spent the last year looking for a
455 engine and discovering that the LEAST I could find one for (when/if I
could find one) was $300 I would opine that the engine alone is worth what
you paid for the car, despite the fact that it came from a 4-door. BTW, I
know where there is a '79 Cutlass Supreme (2-door) for $300 and a '72 Delta
88 (350ci, 4-door) for $300. Both have Arkansas-sound bodies (i.e.,
salt-free). The 88's engine is in good shape. The Cutlass' engine needs to
be rebuilt.

chuck

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@sequent1.providence.edu>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 01:30:31 -0400
Subject: Re: What price 67 Delta 88 4dr hdtp

At 10:40 PM 12/5/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Hello, I haven't been on the list for awhile.  I've got one question, then
>I'll leave everyone else alone.  I recently bought a 67 Delta 88 Custom 4door

Hey, no, stick around; we get tired of hearing the same voices over and
over... ;)

>the car has a 3 speed automatic, I'm pretty sure it's a th400, a single
>exhaust, 4barrel, 425 super rocket-10.25:1 compression, C heads, custom

Mighty mighty cool....

[snip]
>damage includes a dent in the front door, though it still opens easily, a
>crushed rear door, though the glass and interior door panel are still good,
>and it needs a new rear passenger quarter panel.  The engine runs well, and
>doesn't knock or smoke.  I paid $250 for the car, my dad thinks that was $200
>too much. My question is, is $250 too much for this car? I apologise for how
>long this post is, but I'll be out of you hair after it is answered

Sociologists and Psychologists often study how children can turn out to have
excellent taste and values, when the values of their parents are so twisted...

OF COURSE IT WAS A GREAT DEAL! Heck, for the equivalent of *two months*
LEASE payment on a Hyundai, you own a classic, big-block powered, A/C
equipped Olds road machine for _LIFE_!

In its current condition, it must make one heck of a commuter car [I can
just see it now, DrkSole on his way to work in the 88, dealing with the
surrounding Volvos... "Merge with THIS, you latte-sucking twit! _I'll_ show
you a crush-zone!"]

Even if you want to make it mint, spend the three grand on the body and
paint, reupholster the interior, pop in a hot sound system and you *still*
wouldn't be halfway to spending what you would on an entry-level
stripped-down compact sedan.

Whatever the case, good deal there, DrkSole (what _does_ that stand for?),
for both entertainment and economic value. We envy you (but not as much as
we would if we _didn't_ own Oldsmobiles ourselves!).
_______________________________________________________
Dr. Robert Barry  MailTo:RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu
Theology Dept, Providence College, Providence, RI 02918

------------------------------

From: Matt Mayer <mmayer@interaccess.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 03:10:26 -0400
Subject: RE: Instrument Panel Swap

Andrew C. Green Wrote:
>
> >First:  He had a standard instrument panel that he replaced with a full
> >guage instrument panel.  He has replaced all the guages when he
> >installed it.  We thought we had all the wiring worked out, but it still
> >doesn't work quite right...
>
> Maybe you could define "worked out" for us; for example, there are some
> wires in the harness plug (going into the back of the cluster) which must
> be relocated into different slots when changing to the gauge cluster setup.
> Someone else here has full instructions for doing this.

Working with the wiring diagrams in the Haynes Cutlass manual, we
swapped wires around so they were inthe right places.  The only thing
that stumped us was he had two ground wires (black) instead of one...so
he just tied the two together in some fashion so they made one.
Unfortunately, I pitched my scribbled connector diagrams, so I can't say
what we actually decided to do.  If the someone with full instructions
would float them my way, I would appreciate it!


- ---M
-
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
MMayer@InterAccess.Com                 | Matt Mayer VM: (800) 481-1323 
		
| "Well, that was interesting......"

------------------------------

From: DrkSole@aol.com
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 01:47:41 -0400
Subject: Re: What price 67 Delta 88 4dr hdtp

In a message dated 96-12-06 00:36:30 EST, you write:

>This is a loaded question. If we agree that it was too much then it will
>hurt your feelings. Having recently just spent the last year looking for a
>455 engine and discovering that the LEAST I could find one for (when/if I
>could find one) was $300 I would opine that the engine alone is worth what
>you paid for the car, despite the fact that it came from a 4-door.

I appreciate your concern, but don't spare my feelings. If I paid too much,
which I don't think I did, I want to know.  Thanks for being candid.
DrkSole
 73 Cutlass Supreme
 67 Delta 88

------------------------------

From: Matt Mayer <mmayer@interaccess.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 03:20:55 -0400
Subject: RE: Fuel Smell

>
> >Second question was about a puddle of mysterious black, burnt-smelling
> >stuff in the depressions of his intake manifold.  We can't figure out
> >what kind of fluid it could be--it is up too high for it to be oil out
> >of the valve covers, right??  He does say that he gets a fuel odor in
> >the engine comparment that he can smell when he pulls into his garage,
> >but we don't know if its related or not.
> >
> >
> Stick you finger in it, then rub it around a bit, and smell it.  And taste
> it.  Don't ingest it, just taste it.  There are up to five fluids that one
> can find under the hood.
>
>         1. Engine oil
>         2. A/T fluid (tranny and power steering)
>         3. Tranmission grease if manual trans
>         3. Coolant, usually water and glycol
>         4. Fuel: Gasoline/diesel fuel, depending on engine type
>         5. Windshield washer fluid
>
> All have a distinctive smell and taste.
>
> It can also be more than one in conbination.
>
>
> The Wiz
>
I Think we can rule out about everything but the fuel--can you describe
the taste of burnt fuel in 25 words or less??? ;-)

- ---M
-
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
MMayer@InterAccess.Com                 | Matt Mayer VM: (800) 481-1323 
		
| "Well, that was interesting......"

------------------------------

From: DrkSole@aol.com
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 01:52:24 -0400
Subject: Re: What price 67 Delta 88 4dr hdtp

In a message dated 96-12-06 00:42:35 EST, you write:

>Hey, no, stick around; we get tired of hearing the same voices over and
>over... ;)
>Sociologists and Psychologists often study how children can turn out to have
>excellent taste and values, when the values of their parents are so
>twisted...
>
>OF COURSE IT WAS A GREAT DEAL! Heck, for the equivalent of *two months*
>LEASE payment on a Hyundai, you own a classic, big-block powered, A/C
>equipped Olds road machine for _LIFE_!
>
>In its current condition, it must make one heck of a commuter car [I can
>just see it now, DrkSole on his way to work in the 88, dealing with the
>surrounding Volvos... "Merge with THIS, you latte-sucking twit! _I'll_ show
>you a crush-zone!"]

ROTFL !


>Even if you want to make it mint, spend the three grand on the body and
>paint, reupholster the interior, pop in a hot sound system and you *still*
>wouldn't be halfway to spending what you would on an entry-level
>stripped-down compact sedan.

I agree, and that's what I plan to use it for.

>Whatever the case, good deal there, DrkSole (what _does_ that stand for?),
Well, when I picked the alias, my life was going downhill, few friends, no
girlfriend, crappy job (telesurveyor- making annoying political calls). It
stands for Dark Soul, which is how I felt. Things are a lot better now; new
job(data entry), new friends, and.. well 2 out of 3 ain't bad. :)
DrkSole
 73 Cutlass Supreme
 67 Delta 88

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 01:52:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Tasters Choice??  was...Re: Instrument Panel Swap

Snip>

>Don't forget that additive gunk you put in posi's to keep 'em from
>chattering.  ~That~ stuff is awful right out of the bottle--just plain
>nasty!  I'd ~really~ hate to deal with that stuff when it gets old and burnt!
>
> The only ones I've ever tasted were
>
>  coolant (another long story).
>
>      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
>      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
>      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
>      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
>      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
>      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
>             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)
>
What is the option code that gets a delivery tube and dipstick under the
hood for a posi-traction rear axle?  Is it a production code or a Central
Office code?

Or is it just some peculiar airflow, from in the rear axle to under the
hood?  I've never found rear axle lube collecting on an engine, but I have
found all the others I mentioned in my original answer.

Just curious?

The Wiz

------------------------------

From: DrkSole@aol.com
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 01:57:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Instrument Panel Swap

In a message dated 96-12-06 00:52:33 EST, you write:

>>
>> >First:  He had a standard instrument panel that he replaced with a full
>> >guage instrument panel.  He has replaced all the guages when he
>> >installed it.  We thought we had all the wiring worked out, but it still
>> >doesn't work quite right...
>>
>> Maybe you could define "worked out" for us; for example, there are some
>> wires in the harness plug (going into the back of the cluster) which must
>> be relocated into different slots when changing to the gauge cluster
setup.
>> Someone else here has full instructions for doing this.
>
>Working with the wiring diagrams in the Haynes Cutlass manual, we
>swapped wires around so they were inthe right places.  The only thing
>that stumped us was he had two ground wires (black) instead of one...so
>he just tied the two together in some fashion so they made one.
>Unfortunately, I pitched my scribbled connector diagrams, so I can't say
>what we actually decided to do.  If the someone with full instructions
>would float them my way, I would appreciate it!
>
>
Don't know what type of car you're working on, but this might help.  You
should know that I haven't gotten the water temp to work yet, so this may not
be completely accurate.
 For reference the order for changing wires when putting a
77' rally pac in a '73 Cutlass Supreme is
Gray goes where the striped tan wire was
Green > grey
blue > black
tan > pink
black > for seat belt light; tape end and move out of way.
pink > blue
brown > green
tan w/stripe > tan

DrkSole
 73 Cutlass Supreme
 67 Delta 88

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 02:12:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Recessed valves, carbon

At 09:15 PM 12/5/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Can recessed valve seats cause an engine to miss?
>
>What do heavy carbon deposits on tops of pistons and spark plugs signify?
>What can be done fix it?
>
>That's all, short and sweet.  Thanks.
>
>
>
>
>--
>Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
>Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS
>dpauliso@gate.net
>
Valve recession is the complentary wear of the head and the valve at the
mating surface.  As the wear occurs, the valve moves up in the head,
eventually the valve fails to seat, and you have blow by each time the
engine fires.  Yes, it can miss like crazy.

When the exhaust valve fails to seat it can allow hot exhaust back thru into
a new cylinder charge.  If the intake valve is still open, it will cause
firing all the way back thru the intake manifold, and into the carb.

There are a lot of possiblites here, and all provide for unsatisfactory
operation of the automobile.

Carbon deposits have been greatley reduced over the past 100 years of
automobile operation, but have not been eliminated entirely.  From
experience they accumulate in engines that are run at low speeds for long
periods of time.  They are enhanced by poor ignition, and poor carb.
settings.  As the engine heats, the carbon can get hot enough to glow.  When
the fuel is admitted, the hot carbon can cause premature firing.  It is
usually the cause of what is known as 'dieseling' when you shut off the key,
and the engine continues to run.

In the old days, you removed the head; got some carbon scrapers and removed
it.  They made special rotary wire brushes for working on the head side.
The piston top can accumulate it too.

There may be some modern, easy way, to remove it; but if so, I'm unaware of
the process.

The Wiz

------------------------------

From: Ryan Hehn <RYANH@docker.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 03:42:30 -0400
Subject: Re: 1 that got away

Clayton Pierce wrote:
>
> That thread on the '90 Cutlass with the dying fuel pump reminded me of
> one of my "one that got away" stories.  I was checking out the used cars
> at the local Chrysler/Plymouth/Jeep/Eagle/Oldsmobile/Subaru dealer, and
> saw an '89 Cutlass.  It was cherry, and had only 87,000 miles on it.
> Plus, it had the 3.8 liter V6 and a 5 speed.  I went in and asked about
> it.  The used car person told me that it had quit running on them.  <snip>

The 3.8 l was available in the '89 Cutlass???  That's good to hear, I've
always that 3.8 was only available in the Regals of those years...
Never seen one myself though... I've always admired the FWD Cutlass (for
a newer car)... Maybe someday I'll had one to my collection!

Ryan Hehn
ryanh@docker.com

------------------------------

From: Ryan Hehn <RYANH@docker.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 03:59:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Calais Guages.

Clayton Pierce wrote:
> One other question about the Calais, there is something that is confusing
> me.  I didn't think that the V-6's were computer controlled in 1981, and
> also, I didn't think that the Canadian built cars were computer
> controlled.  Well, this car was originally a V-6 car, and was built in
> Canada (confirmed by the VIN etc.) and it WAS computer controlled.  What
> gives?
>
> Peace, Goodwill, and Happy Oldsmobilling,
> Clayton Pierce,
> zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu

Perhaps the car was Canadian built for the US.  My '86 is the opposite.
It was built in Morraine, Ohio for the Canadian market. (no computer!)

As far as the V/6 being computer controlled, I think I have an old US
advertisement stating that computer control was standard on all GM gas
engines in '81...

Ryan Hehn
ryanh@docker.com

------------------------------

From: Ryan Hehn <RYANH@docker.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 04:03:44 -0400
Subject: G-body VIN codes

Can anybody tell me the general breakdown of G-body VIN codes? About all
I can identify is the engine code, and I was wondering what else is
easily determined.

My Cutlass Supremes have the following VINs:

2G3GR47H5G2315974 - the '86
2G3AM47J2B2468425 - the '81

I have no idea what the 'in common' portions represent. (ie the 2G3 and
the 47)...

Thanks in advance,

Ryan Hehn
ryanh@docker.com

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 06:04:08 -0400
Subject: Re: What price 67 Delta 88 4dr hdtp

 The engine runs well, and
>doesn't knock or smoke.  I paid $250 for the car, my dad thinks that was $200
>too much. My question is, is $250 too much for this car?

I'd say the engine alone is worth that!  I paid $300 for my 70 Delta w/455,
95K miles, ~totalled~ pass. side.  Those 425's are good motors, my '67 98
Convert I paid $800 for, and it's fairly rough. The engine was a fresh
rebuild, though, and now sends the Rockit down the quarter and anywhere else
I want it!  Plus, the T&T Steering column is probably worth a majority of
that $$$ too!  Ya got my support;  Happy Olds'ing! :)

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 06:04:15 -0400
Subject: Re: G-body VIN codes

>Can anybody tell me the general breakdown of G-body VIN codes? About all
>I can identify is the engine code, and I was wondering what else is
>easily determined.
>
>My Cutlass Supremes have the following VINs:
>
>2G3GR47H5G2315974 - the '86
>2G3AM47J2B2468425 - the '81
>
>I have no idea what the 'in common' portions represent. (ie the 2G3 and
>the 47)...

>From the top (and from memory)...

1- Country of Origin  --2 = Canada? or Mexico... Not sure.  1 is US
2- G=General Motors
3- 3=Oldsmobile  Other #'s indicate an inferior auto! ;)
4- Body Code (A & G are same body, but changed designation in '82)
5- I ~think~ designates Brougham/Supreme, maybe others.  My '81 Supreme's
4-7 are AR47, and the Broughams are AM47, FWIW...
6&7 Body codes...  47=2dr Coupe, I think...
8- Engine code
9- No idea offhand, production plant, perhaps?
10 Year (A='80, B='81, etc.)
11-17 unsure.  I think the serial # code is just the last 6, leaving 11
unknown to me.  If I looked it up I'd probably be able to tell ya, but I'm
not gonna get that carried away tonight.  (It's 3 AM, I just got off work)

Hope that helps some.  I'm kinda proud of myself for remembering that much.
(Incedentally, I have 1-11 of the Rockit's VIN memorized, but always lose it
on the 6 digit serial #)  I ~need~ a life! :)

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 06:04:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Tasters Choice??  was...Re: Instrument Panel Swap

>What is the option code that gets a delivery tube and dipstick under the
>hood for a posi-traction rear axle?  Is it a production code or a Central
>Office code?
>
>Or is it just some peculiar airflow, from in the rear axle to under the
>hood?  I've never found rear axle lube collecting on an engine, but I have
>found all the others I mentioned in my original answer.
>

What, this isn't a Toro?  :-)

  Maybe if we could get up to 75 mph in ~reverse,~ see, then it might have
the right dynamics to flow up there.  (Only if the transmission is shifted
into nuetral at that speed, though, 'cuz the shift linkage is what deflects
the fluid up that high.)  Also note that this isn't a documented problem on
floor-shift models, they have a seperate problem noted in service manuals as
"stinky-crap-in-console" complaint!!!   :-)

- ---Well, I had to come up with something! :)

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 06:04:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Calais Guages.

>As far as the V/6 being computer controlled, I think I have an old US
>advertisement stating that computer control was standard on all GM gas
>engines in '81...

Yes, to the best of my knowledge, ~all~ GM US passenger cars were computer
controlled, with the CCC System.  In '79 they started the C4 system
(Computer Controlled Catalytic Converter, or CCCC) and that showed up on a
limited amount of cars.  They upgraded to the Computer Command Control by
'81, which incorporated the Oxygen sensor and feedback carb.

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: buehner@cis.nmclites.edu (buehner)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 06:04:10 -0400
Subject: Re: What price 67 Delta 88 4dr hdtp

>In its current condition, it must make one heck of a commuter car [I can
>just see it now, DrkSole on his way to work in the 88, dealing with the
>surrounding Volvos... "Merge with THIS, you latte-sucking twit! _I'll_ show
>you a crush-zone!"]

My '70 Delta had been hit broadside on the pass. rear door, by a pickup
pulling a horse trailer ~at 65 mph!!!!!~ I actually drove it like that.  The
two doors were destroyed, and the quarter panel was in similar shape, but
the rest of the car was near perfect.  (they ~don't~ make 'em like ~that~
anymore!!!)  After two days I got the pass. doors off, and the B pillar
pulled out of the seat.  I drove it ~like that~ for another week or so :)
Whenever anyone would give me a hard time about the missing large pieces,
I'd simply reply (In my ~best~ "Wayne's World" imitation):  "Pshaw!  As
If... Like ~I'd~ drive a four-door!!!"

I certainly didn't have to worry about people pulling out in front of me
with that!  ***They ~gladly~ got the Hell out of my way!***

                    -----------------------------

>I appreciate your concern, but don't spare my feelings. If I paid too much,
>which I don't think I did, I want to know.  Thanks for being candid.
>DrkSole

I worked at a Dodge dealer for a year, where I got to see a lot about the
market tendancies of the automotive field.  It's my strong contention that
~any~ running, driving vehicle is worth $1000.  Not saying it'll actually
~bring~ that much, but it is worth that much, anyway.  Anything below that,
your either buying someone's basket-case, or you're getting a good deal.
~AND~...  If it says "Oldsmobile" on it, it's most likely the latter!   :)

               -----------------------

>It
>stands for Dark Soul, which is how I felt. Things are a lot better now; new
>job(data entry), new friends, and.. well 2 out of 3 ain't bad. :)

~~~AND~~~ another Olds!  :)  Can't forget that!

      Charley Buehner       | "buehner@cis.nmclites.edu"
      500 4th Ave.          | "charley@rocketship.com"
      Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
      Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
      "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass 425
      "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
             (Real Cars Don't Wear Bowties!)

------------------------------

From: Oldsruns@aol.com
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 06:53:31 -0400
Subject: New On The Oldsmobile List

Hi Guys,

I just found the Oldsmobile group, and I dearly love Oldsmobiles.  My Name is
John Rock (unfortunately no kin to Olds' CEO) shame too.  I'm usually called
Red, or Red Rock.

I was an mechnical engineer for an H.V.A.C. company for most of the last 25
years.  My first Oldsmobile was a 1970 4-4-2 (with W30).  If I remember
correctly it was rated at 370hp that year.  My father bought it for me as an
early graduation present, and it was retired to the family farm (my father
was a farmer), after a catastrophic engine failure, which after investigation
later, was determined to have been caused by destruction of the camshaft.

Last year, my father, had a bad stroke, and I had to come home to mangage the
farm.  I went out and looked at my 4-4-2 and decided to do something with it.
 For some reason we never got rid of old cars, they have just accumulated in
the outbuildings (and they are all nearly all Oldsmobiles; but there is a
1941 or so Buick with dual carburetors that was considered the hottest ride
available in the U.S. when it was new).  The actual count is 9 Oldsmobiles, 2
Buicks, and my brothers Corvette.  There are some other Olds goodies too,
when I got my '70 dad had a Toronado which is still around, and so is his
first new car, a 1932 Oldsmobile 8 cylinder convertible coupe.  He said for a
young man, he felt exactly the same about it, as I did my 4-4-2.  He also
said it was considered a hot car in its day, but the '32 V8 Fords would
usually beat him at take off, and then he would loose them at top end.
 Unfortunately the '32 has a lot of wood in its construction, and the wood is
bad.  The metal is still very nice on it, though; even the paint is pretty
good.

Back to my 4-4-2: I have the engine completely out of the car, and taken down
on a bench.  When the cam shaft let go, some of the pistons came into contact
with open valves, and the engine is really something of a mess.  This car has
had 133K hard miles, but was a joy to drive when it was new.

After college, I was afforded an asian vacation, at government expense, and
really ran the you know what out of it while I was still stateside.  The car
expired about 100 miles south of Chicago, headed for home, and was brought in
on a hook.  It has resided in the barn ever since.

I am interested in acquiring all of the necessary parts to restore the
engine, visably accurately on the outside, but still with some guts on the
inside.  Because my father spec'd the car it has an A/T, I would have opted
for a 4 speed, but please, I'm not complaining.

Other than engine work, and a new top the car is in a very presentable #2
condition.  After all, it was less than two years old when it conked out, and
has been in a dark building, under a large cloth cover ever since.

It still has the original, un-run, spare in the trunk.  I put Michelin
radials on the car the first time it needed new rubber, and they are all
flat, at least on the bottom.  So new tires are in the offing soon.  I
believe it will take a lot of renewal of such things as brakes and suspension
too, and I will do all of that as I get to it.

I don't remember swapping anything off the car that came from Oldsmobile, so
from the originality standpoint it should be very good.

I live in Sangamon County, Illinois; about ten miles from Springfield.  I
will need a good automotive machine shop.  And was wondering if there are any
to recommend.  I'm about 200 mi from Chicago, 100 from Saint Louis, and
Indianapolis is not too far either.

Red Rock

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 07:20:40 -0400
Subject: Re: New On The Oldsmobile List

On Fri, 6 Dec 1996 Oldsruns@aol.com wrote:
> I just found the Oldsmobile group, and I dearly love Oldsmobiles.  My Name
is > John Rock (unfortunately no kin to Olds' CEO) shame too.  I'm usually
called > Red, or Red Rock.

Man, did my heart jump for a second when I read that!!! Plus, your
nickname is the same as mine on IRC (well, almost: RedRocket, but people
call me Red). Welcome!! You're in the right place.

<incredible inventory of old cars snipped>

What a collection! Those compound carburation Buicks were amazing cars.
And a '32 Olds convertible?!? <drool> Let's get the woodworking tools out
guys!

> Back to my 4-4-2: I have the engine completely out of the car, and taken
down > on a bench.  When the cam shaft let go, some of the pistons came into
contact > with open valves, and the engine is really something of a mess.
This car has > had 133K hard miles, but was a joy to drive when it was new.

> I am interested in acquiring all of the necessary parts to restore the
> engine, visably accurately on the outside, but still with some guts on the
> inside.  Because my father spec'd the car it has an A/T, I would have opted
> for a 4 speed, but please, I'm not complaining.

Even with the damage that shouldn't be hard to fix. Get a replacement
Mondello or Dave Smith cam (see http://www.442.com for addresses/phone
#s), valves and other parts are still commonly available; all you need is
a machine shop. Others will be able to recommend in more detail.

That sounds like a great car to bring back to life. I guarantee you'll
enjoy it. Not having tossed stuff away when it was younger will make the
job a lot easier. Man, I envy you! Or hate you (just kidding)... a
'70/'71 4-4-2 convert is exactly what I've been looking for. Let us know
what we can do for you. And, what else is in that barn, anyway?  ;-)


Greg Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: Oldsruns@aol.com
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 08:01:34 -0400
Subject: Re: New On The Oldsmobile List

Hi there Redrocket,

I really appreciate the note.  I have been an Oldsmobile fan for ever.  I
have two brothers, one has only had Chevrolets, and the other buys anything
that suits his fancy.  Usually Buicks and Oldsmobiles though.  All GM anyway.

The car collection includes:

1932 8 cylinder convertible coupe ran when put away.

1968(9) Toronado ran when put away.

1970 4-4-2 convertible broken engine when put away

1980 Toronado I think this was a diesel and just quit one day.  The engine is
out anyway, and it was sideswiped just before the engine quit.  It is kind of
a rust bucket, even after being out of the weather the last 6 or 8 years.
 Wasn't nearly as nice as the older one in any department either.

1935 Olds coupe.  This one was in an old wooden garage that was burned down.
 My dad suspected vandals, but it may have been lightening.  Anyway the
greatest damage was where the old building fell in.  It was pulled out, and
placed in a different building.  I believe I would have scrapped it, or
better yet parted it out, as a lot is OK for a restorer.  It would be a very
ambitious restoration as it is.  Very clean original car when put away.

1960 Olds Holiday 98 4 door hardtop.  This was the car I basically learned to
drive in.  Pretty good power as I remember, but nothing like came along ten
years alter.  Ran when put away.

1987 Delta 88 Brougham, my mothers last car.  Probably has less than 20K
miles.  I finally got my father to drive it after his 1980 Toronado quit.
  Still few total miles.
Still runs good, I keep it for a second car.

1953/4/5 I don't remember the exact year, Super 88 4 door.  It is a V8 and
was really rather clunky.  This and the 1935 are my brothers.  They got this
car running at the last family reunion, July 4, 1990 I think.  The also ran
the 1935 that day too.  Put in clean gas and a new battery.

1966/7 Chevrolet Corvette, a 396 that was abused from day one, and still
looks it.  This is my other brothers.  Whenever he comes to the farm he
drives it around.  That car is a powerhouse.  It is just plain tired.  Runs
fairly well considering it must have 100K very hard driven miles.  This was
my brothers first car (bought used) and he is going to restore it one day, he
says.  Unfortunately he is about as mechanically inclined as my mother.  My
father had to tie her shoes, if she had that kind on.  However, they are both
magnificent artists, so they do have something in the other side of the scale
in their favor.

1941 or so Buick w/dual carbs.  Considered the hottest car you could buy in
its day.

1949 (the porthole one) Buick station wagon, and an automatic transmission.
 This car must be started on its way a day or two before a trip if you want
the transmission to have time to shift into drive.  Actually it doesn't
shift, it just slips along.

Well that's the car collection.  Oh, my everyday car is an 1995 Aurora.  I
wish they would have offered this car with a full output LT1 instead of the
down scaled one it has.

Are the responses, such as yours, saved?  If so where?  I would like to read
the last week or so.  I feel like I've been left behind.

Red Rock

------------------------------

From: Oly13@aol.com
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 08:52:04 -0400
Subject: Re: New On The Oldsmobile List

In a message dated 96-12-06 07:08:34 EST, you write:

>1968(9) Toronado ran when put away.

Can you describe this car?  Is the ignition on the steering column, or the
dash?  Does the car have dual exhaust?  Does the rear bumper have exhaust
cuttouts?  I think that there would be some interest in discussing this car.
 What is the aproximate milage and overall condition of the car?  There is
probably some interest out there regarding this unit.  Take a good look at
the car and let us know.

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 09:19:36 -0400
Subject: Re: New On The Oldsmobile List

At 08:52 AM 12/6/96 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 96-12-06 07:08:34 EST, you write:
>
>>1968(9) Toronado ran when put away.
>
>Can you describe this car?  Is the ignition on the steering column, or the
>dash?  Does the car have dual exhaust?  Does the rear bumper have exhaust
>cuttouts?  I think that there would be some interest in discussing this car.
> What is the aproximate milage and overall condition of the car?  There is
>probably some interest out there regarding this unit.  Take a good look at
>the car and let us know.
>
>
I'll be happy to look at it for you.  If your interest is directed at buying
it, you will have no luck, because dad has all of his cars because he has
all of his cars.  As a matter of fact the few that he has owned and are not
still here are those that were wrecked, and went to insurance companies.  I
know that an almost new 1959 Olds was wrecked while parked outside the
movie, and we got a 1960 a day or two later.  The 1959 was a red wine color,
and I really liked it.  The 1960 was a pukie green, which I didn't care for
much.

If your interest is historical, I be happy do whatever I can.

On a rare occasion we get uninvited guests that heard about this or that
car.  Until his stroke, my dad was always cordual with them, and if they
have a genuine knowledge they are usually allowed to inspect the cars.  If
they are nerds or punks they are told the cars have all been sold, and asked
to leave.

John "Red" Rock

------------------------------

From: "JOHN L. BERENYI" <berenyi@texas.dseg.ti.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 09:51:36 -0400
Subject: FS 67 Olds 442

blue on blue with white vinyl top
original 400 engine
turbo 400 original
console shifter
a/c, power antenna, remote mirror
SSI SS2 wheels
dash and buckets mint
paint good condition
107k on car and motor(very strong!)
3:08 rear end
power steering/brakes
no rust or dents


$7500 or B/O


John

------------------------------

From: Robert McElroy <rmcelroy@midcom.anza.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 09:44:35 -0400
Subject: RE: What price 67 Delta 88 4dr hdtp

Can you provide some more details about the Delta 88?  I might be =
interested in a larger, older vehicle since none of the newer vehicles =
fit me very well (6'3" tall, 34" wide across the shoulder, yes that =
means I am approximately as wide and only a little shorter than a =
standard house door.)  I have learned to live with my head scraping the =
roof liner and my shoulder pressed against the window glass.  It seems =
to me that older (early '70's) Oldsmobile cars are much larger than any =
of the newer vehicles, plus I kind of liked the looks of my folks' '74 =
Delta 88 (is the '72 similar?)  The only problem is that I prefer =
two-doors over four-doors.  Anyone know where I can find a decent early =
to mid-seventies Delta 88 coupe or convertible for a reasonable price?  =
Thanks.

Bob McElroy
'86 Cutlass Supreme

- ----------
From: 	Chuck Rowe[SMTP:badgeman@tcac.com]
Sent: 	Thursday, December 05, 1996 11:37 PM
To: 	oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: 	Re: What price 67 Delta 88 4dr hdtp

know where there is a '79 Cutlass Supreme (2-door) for $300 and a '72 =
Delta
88 (350ci, 4-door) for $300. Both have Arkansas-sound bodies (i.e.,
salt-free). The 88's engine is in good shape. The Cutlass' engine needs =
to
be rebuilt.

chuck

------------------------------

From: Frank Boerger <103454.317@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 09:57:18 -0400
Subject: RE: Recessed valves, carbon

At 09:15 PM 12/5/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Can recessed valve seats cause an engine to miss?
>
>What do heavy carbon deposits on tops of pistons and spark plugs signify?
>What can be done fix it?
>
>That's all, short and sweet.  Thanks.
>
>
>
>
>--
>Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
>Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS
>dpauliso@gate.net
>
>Valve recession is the complentary wear of the head and the valve at the
>mating surface.

<snip>
>Carbon deposits have been greatley reduced over the past 100 years of
>automobile operation, but have not been eliminated entirely.  From
>experience they accumulate in engines that are run at low speeds for >long
>periods of time.  They are enhanced by poor ignition, and poor carb.
>settings.  As the engine heats, the carbon can get hot enough to glow.  >When
>the fuel is admitted, the hot carbon can cause premature firing.  It is
>usually the cause of what is known as 'dieseling' when you shut off the >key,
>and the engine continues to run.

>In the old days, you removed the head; got some carbon scrapers and >removed
>it.  They made special rotary wire brushes for working on the head side.
>The piston top can accumulate it too.

>There may be some modern, easy way, to remove it; but if so, I'm >unaware of
>the process.


A carbon removal method taught to me by an Olds/Ch*vy Garage Master mechanic (
I don't know if that was an oofficial GM designation, but he was certainly the
lead guy) was to warm the engine up, and at about 1800 rpm, pour about 12 oz.
of water at a pencil sized stream (it was in the convenient soda bottle size)
down the carb throat while you worked the throttle to keep the engine running.
The carbon is virtually red-hot ( that's why it diesels ( actually working
like a glow-engine), the cool water hits the carbon, the abrupt cooling change
"cracks" the carbon loose, it exits in small flakes out the exhaust, chamber
clean.  It will form a rather nasty looking black circle on the ground under
the exhaust pipe ( or on the garage door near the rear of the car !!...been
there, done that !!).

Now I know I'm going to get some questioning replies to this, as everyone will
say the block, valves, head, and pistons have just as great a chance of
cracking, but I have seen and also performed this 	trick many, many, 
times,
and it has always been effective.  Now if you are faint of heart, run the
engine at a higher rpm than idle, and introduce the water through a vacuum
port at a lesser rate...takes longer though.  A water injection device will
also help to clean the cc's over time.

Years ago, GM used to sell a product that was used as a tune-up solvent, but I
do not know if it is still available.  You would pour it down the carb
throat(engine smoking all the way) and as you got to the last of the can, you
would flood the engine until it stalled.  Turn off key, let soak under
deposits, put in new plugs, complete tune-up, fire it up, and drive it for at
lease 1/2 mile to end the smoking.  I remember it was effective, but I can't
say that the water didn't work just a well.

For you old airplane folks, the mechanics used to clean cc's on planes that
had the methanol/water injection (Corsairs, etc.) by turning on the injection
during a high-power ground run-up.

Hope this doesn't cause too much controversy !

By now you know Dave, you will have to solve the origin that richness
condition, or a few months after the cleaning, you'll have to it all over
again.

Frank Boerger//Tallahassee

------------------------------

From: Frank Boerger <103454.317@CompuServe.COM>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 09:57:20 -0400
Subject: RE: New On The Oldsmobile List

On Fri, 6 Dec 1996 Oldsruns@aol.com wrote:
> I just found the Oldsmobile group, and I dearly love Oldsmobiles.  My Name
is > John Rock (unfortunately no kin to Olds' CEO) shame too.  I'm usually
called > Red, or Red Rock.


<incredible inventory of old cars snipped>


> Back to my 4-4-2: I have the engine completely out of the car, and taken
down > on a bench.  When the cam shaft let go, some of the pistons came into
contact > with open valves, and the engine is really something of a mess.
This car has > had 133K hard miles, but was a joy to drive when it was new.

> I am interested in acquiring all of the necessary parts to restore the
> engine, visably accurately on the outside, but still with some guts on the
> inside.  Because my father spec'd the car it has an A/T, I would have opted
> for a 4 speed, but please, I'm not complaining.

Wasn't it just last week that we were saying "Yeah, I heard those stories
'bout those barns, yeah, yeah, ...full of old cars...never found one
myself...urban myths...Welcome Red !!

You just stumbled on the most interesting group of Oldsmobile enthusiasts on
the net.  I can't wait to read of your progress on the list as time goes on.

Frank Boerger//Tallahassee//'68 C/S Convertible, '68 Coupe-de-parts

------------------------------

From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 10:01:31 -0400
Subject: Reflections on "Setting The Pace"

Last night I finally finished reading my copy of "Setting The Pace", the
book marking the 100th anniversary of Olds. What a wonderful piece of
work. Thanks again to Helen Earley and Jim Walkinshaw for writing it, and
to John Rock (the *other* John Rock) and others at Oldsmobile Division for
making it available.

It took me a while to realize that this was a history of the company, not
just the cars. Hence the emphasis on the buildings, physical plant and
the people in addition to the products. That was interesting but I have
to admit that I would have preferred a little more about the cars of the
'60s and '70s and less about the plants themselves. But it did give me a
new appreciation for the sheer size of the place, the extent of what
they did there, and the impact it had on Lansing.

I really enjoyed the book, but the last 2 chapters made me sad. I was
surprised at the candor of some people quoted in the book, and at least the
authors didn't attempt to sugar-coat the problems. The way I read it, the GM
reorganization of '84 seemed tragic and effectively killed off Olds as an
independent company. I have spent some time trying to figure out how that
reorg would have functioned and I still can't see how it could have worked
while retaining individual brand names. The second reorganization may help
but I still have a hard time seeing how much independence Olds and the other
divisions have. They must have some, since their recent products are somewhat
unique, but that didn't really come through in the book. But it seems certain
that the glory days of the Rocket V-8 and the Olds "family" are over.
Olds seems to be mostly a marketing organization now according to the
book. The engineering and production seems mostly to be coming out of GM
corporate, not Olds. If someone could clarify the internal relationships
I'd appreciate it.

It is easy to see how the 1984 reorg could have spilled over into
contributing to some of the quality and product problems of the mid/late
1980's. The disruption it probably caused and the elimination of the old
culture must have been very unsettling. The impression the book gives is that
no one was minding the store during those years while everyone was scurrying
around trying to protect their jobs. Working in an organization myself that
has gone through the same thing I can see how that could be true. You lose
the sense of why you go to work each day because of all the organizational
instability. How sad. But the way they fell off the cliff - from a million
cars produced to less than half that in only a few years - still seems
mysterious. The company seemed to lose not only the ability to turn out
appealing products, but even the sense of who they were. It must have been
like bleeding to death seeing the "Oldsmobile" signs come off the buildings,
the end of operating their own plants, the end of Rocket V-8 production. We
really should preserve every remnant of the glory days that we can, because
the company that made them is gone for good.

One thing I didn't know was that Olds no longer builds it's own cars
except for the Aurora and the Achieva. Ever since the mid-80s the others
have been built by other parts of GM. Must make it difficult to make your
products better than the rest. The section at the very end on the
upcoming products of the late 1990's gives me optimism, although all I
see are 4-door sedans and minivans. I hope it is enough to save them.
What a sad tale.


Greg Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

From: "C.R.F." <wizkid@inlink.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 09:58:18 -0400
Subject: Re: New On The Oldsmobile List

- --=====================_849891090==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>At 08:52 AM 12/6/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>In a message dated 96-12-06 07:08:34 EST, you write:
>>
>>>1968(9) Toronado ran when put away.
>>

Snips>

>they are nerds or punks they are told the cars have all been sold, and asked
>to leave.
>
>John "Red" Rock
>
>
>

Red,

I think you intended this to go to the list server instead of to me, and I
intended it to go back to you directly instead of the server. (Are we doing
each others work)?  I think I left off the attachment with the name and
phone number of a good automotive machine shop if you need to go as far as
Saint Louis to have the work done.  We will now have the others on this list
plenty confused.  I also forgot to tell you that my Grandfather lived in
Springfield all of his life.  He died a few years ago at 95.

The Wiz

P.S. I'm attempting to send this directly to you, with a copy to the Olds
list, and this time with the attachment in place. I hope you get it one way
or the other.


- --=====================_849891090==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="RR1.TXT"

I think that you intended to send this directly to the list server instead of
directly to me.  So to answer your previous question, I have a very good
automotive machine shop that I use,

Call Carl Abe, Kraft Service, #314-367-2888.



- --=====================_849891090==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


- --=====================_849891090==_--

------------------------------

From: Clayton Pierce <zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 09:28:55 -0400
Subject: Re: G-body VIN codes

On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Ryan Hehn wrote:

> Can anybody tell me the general breakdown of G-body VIN codes? About all
> I can identify is the engine code, and I was wondering what else is
> easily determined.
>
> My Cutlass Supremes have the following VINs:
>
> 2G3GR47H5G2315974 - the '86
2 = Canada
G = GM
3 = Oldsmobile
G = passive restraint ?
R = Cutlass Supreme
47 = 2 door hardtop coupe
H = engine code (don't remember right now) 3.8l maybe?
5 = check digit (Olds' way of making sure VIN is real
G = year 1986 A - 80 B - 81 etc.
2 = manufactured in St. Therese, PQ, Canada
315974 # off the assembly line.



> 2G3AM47J2B2468425 - the '81
2 = Canada
G = GM
3 = Oldsmobile
A = non-passive restraint ?
M = Cutlass Supreme Brougham
47 = 2dr. Hardtop Coupe
J = engine code 307 maybe?  Don't remember.
2 = check digit
B = year 1981
2 = manufactured in St. Therese, PQ, Canada
468425 = # off the assembly line

I'm doing this from memory so I hope its right,

Peace, Goodwill, and Happy Oldsmobilling,
Clayton Pierce,
zcwp11@Access.ETSU-Tn.Edu



>
> I have no idea what the 'in common' portions represent. (ie the 2G3 and
> the 47)...
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Ryan Hehn
> ryanh@docker.com
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: jev114@psu.edu
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 02:31:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Recessed valves, carbon

Frank Boerger wrote:
>
> At 09:15 PM 12/5/96 -0400, you wrote:
> >Can recessed valve seats cause an engine to miss?
> >
> >What do heavy carbon deposits on tops of pistons and spark plugs signify?
> >What can be done fix it?
> >
> >That's all, short and sweet.  Thanks.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >Dave Paulison                  1969 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme
> >Melbourne, Florida             1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse GS
> >dpauliso@gate.net
> >
> >Valve recession is the complentary wear of the head and the valve at the
> >mating surface.
>
> <snip>
> >Carbon deposits have been greatley reduced over the past 100 years of
> >automobile operation, but have not been eliminated entirely.  From
> >experience they accumulate in engines that are run at low speeds for
>long
> >periods of time.  They are enhanced by poor ignition, and poor carb.
> >settings.  As the engine heats, the carbon can get hot enough to glow.
>When > >the fuel is admitted, the hot carbon can cause premature firing.  It
is > >usually the cause of what is known as 'dieseling' when you shut off the
>key, > >and the engine continues to run. > > >In the old days, you removed
the head; got some carbon scrapers and >removed > >it.  They made special
rotary wire brushes for working on the head side. > >The piston top can
accumulate it too. > > >There may be some modern, easy way, to remove it; but
if so, I'm >unaware of > >the process. > > A carbon removal method taught to
me by an Olds/Ch*vy Garage Master mechanic ( I > don't know if that was an
oofficial GM designation, but he was certainly the > lead guy) was to warm the
engine up, and at about 1800 rpm, pour about 12 oz. of > water at a pencil
sized stream (it was in the convenient soda bottle size) down > the carb
throat while you worked the throttle to keep the engine running.  The > carbon
is virtually red-hot ( that's why it diesels ( actually working like a >
glow-engine), the cool water hits the carbon, the abrupt cooling change
"cracks" > the carbon loose, it exits in small flakes out the exhaust, chamber
clean.  It > will form a rather nasty looking black circle on the ground under
the exhaust > pipe ( or on the garage door near the rear of the car !!...been
there, done that > !!). > > Now I know I'm going to get some questioning
replies to this, as everyone will > say the block, valves, head, and pistons
have just as great a chance of > cracking, but I have seen and also performed
this       trick many, many, times, > and it has always been effective.  Now
if you are faint of heart, run the engine > at a higher rpm than idle, and
introduce the water through a vacuum port at a > lesser rate...takes longer
though.  A water injection device will also help to > clean the cc's over
time. > > Years ago, GM used to sell a product that was used as a tune-up
solvent, but I > do not know if it is still available.  You would pour it down
the carb > throat(engine smoking all the way) and as you got to the last of
the can, you > would flood the engine until it stalled.  Turn off key, let
soak under deposits, > put in new plugs, complete tune-up, fire it up, and
drive it for at lease 1/2 > mile to end the smoking.  I remember it was
effective, but I can't say that the > water didn't work just a well. > > For
you old airplane folks, the mechanics used to clean cc's on planes that had >
the methanol/water injection (Corsairs, etc.) by turning on the injection
during > a high-power ground run-up. > > Hope this doesn't cause too much
controversy ! > > By now you know Dave, you will have to solve the origin
that richness condition, > or a few months after the cleaning, you'll have to
it all over again. > > Frank Boerger//Tallahassee

Good advice i've seen similair articles in Popular Mechanics telling the
same thing...one thing they mentioned was to use warm distilled water
though may make a difference!

Jeff

------------------------------

From: david wyatt <Wyatt_David_L@Lilly.COM>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 11:06:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Setting the pace and GM quality

A few years ago, (ok quite a few) some of my friends worked at Guide
Lamp and Delco-Remy in Anderson Indiana. We were talking about the
quality difference between Camaros and Firebirds. They told me that
Pontiac would reject 50% of the parts they sent, Chevrolet only rejected
about 10% of the same parts. I would guess that Oldsmobile was rejecting
a high percentage also at that time. Needless to say, the corporate
situation of GM will make it hard for anyone to see a difference in
brands. When they said "This is not your fathers Oldsmobile" they were
not kidding. My fathers Olds had personality as does mine. Our children
will be able to relate to that statement when they start buying cars and
can not tell them apart without a score card.

Off the soapbox for now,
Dave Wyatt
70  4-4-2

------------------------------

From: Barnacle Bill <wreilly@acad.bryant.edu>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 11:27:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Instrument Panel Swap

On Fri, 6 Dec 1996 DrkSole@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 96-12-06 00:52:33 EST, you write:
>
> >>
> >> >First:  He had a standard instrument panel that he replaced with a full
> >> >guage instrument panel.  He has replaced all the guages when he
> >> >installed it.  We thought we had all the wiring worked out, but it still
> >> >doesn't work quite right...
> >>
> >> Maybe you could define "worked out" for us; for example, there are some
> >> wires in the harness plug (going into the back of the cluster) which must
> >> be relocated into different slots when changing to the gauge cluster
> setup.
> >> Someone else here has full instructions for doing this.
> >
> >Working with the wiring diagrams in the Haynes Cutlass manual, we
> >swapped wires around so they were inthe right places.  The only thing
> >that stumped us was he had two ground wires (black) instead of one...so
> >he just tied the two together in some fashion so they made one.
> >Unfortunately, I pitched my scribbled connector diagrams, so I can't say
> >what we actually decided to do.  If the someone with full instructions
> >would float them my way, I would appreciate it!

	I have a diagram that Tom Millard made for this purpose.  I
	suppose if someone wants a copy I could photocopy it for you.
	I don't think Tom has made it compatible for the FAQ yet.  It
	might be a good idea since this seems to be a fairly common	
	swap.  I still haven't gotten around to doing mine yet, but it's
	waiting.


> Don't know what type of car you're working on, but this might help.  You
> should know that I haven't gotten the water temp to work yet, so this may
not > be completely accurate. >  For reference the order for changing wires
when putting a > 77' rally pac in a '73 Cutlass Supreme is > Gray goes where
the striped tan wire was > Green > grey > blue > black > tan > pink > black >
for seat belt light; tape end and move out of way. > pink > blue > brown >
green > tan w/stripe > tan

	^^^^^  I don't think this works for the 78 to 88 Cutlass's. The
	whole Rallye pack is set up different if I remember right.

 > DrkSole
>  73 Cutlass Supreme
>  67 Delta 88
>
>

------------------------------

From: Matt Mayer <mmayer@interaccess.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 13:40:13 -0400
Subject: Re: G-body VIN codes

buehner wrote:
>
> >Can anybody tell me the general breakdown of G-body VIN codes? About all
> >I can identify is the engine code, and I was wondering what else is
> >easily determined.
> >
> >My Cutlass Supremes have the following VINs:
> >
> >2G3GR47H5G2315974 - the '86
> >2G3AM47J2B2468425 - the '81
> >
> >I have no idea what the 'in common' portions represent. (ie the 2G3 and
> >the 47)...
>
> >From the top (and from memory)...
>
> 1- Country of Origin  --2 = Canada? or Mexico... Not sure.  1 is US
> 2- G=General Motors
> 3- 3=Oldsmobile  Other #'s indicate an inferior auto! ;)
> 4- Body Code (A & G are same body, but changed designation in '82)
> 5- I ~think~ designates Brougham/Supreme, maybe others.  My '81 Supreme's
> 4-7 are AR47, and the Broughams are AM47, FWIW...
> 6&7 Body codes...  47=2dr Coupe, I think...
> 8- Engine code
> 9- No idea offhand, production plant, perhaps?
> 10 Year (A='80, B='81, etc.)
> 11-17 unsure.  I think the serial # code is just the last 6, leaving 11
> unknown to me.  If I looked it up I'd probably be able to tell ya, but I'm
> not gonna get that carried away tonight.  (It's 3 AM, I just got off work)
Charley,
  You were right on most accounts except the 4th digit(at least for the
'81).  My '82 Service manual lists the fourth digit as designating a
restraint system (seriously!):
A- Non-passive/Active Belts - Standard
B- Passive/Automatic Belts  - Sales Code A77
C- Passive/Inflatible retraints - Sales Code AR3

Also Digit 9 is listed a "Check digit" Whatever that means.
10 is model year (L='81)
11 is plant code  M=Lansing, MI
		  2=St. Therese, Quebec
	          X=Fairfax Kansas
		  E=Linden, NJ
The remaining 6 are the serial number or "Plant Sequential Number" in
GM-ese

Remember this is for '82, I think the coding changed after this....

- ---M
-
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
MMayer@InterAccess.Com                 | Matt Mayer VM: (800) 481-1323 
		
| "Well, that was interesting......"

------------------------------

From: Matt Mayer <mmayer@interaccess.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 13:46:33 -0400
Subject: Re: G-body VIN codes

Matt Mayer wrote:

> Charley,
>   You were right on most accounts except the 4th digit(at least for the
> '81).  My '82 Service manual lists the fourth digit as designating a
> restraint system (seriously!):
> A- Non-passive/Active Belts - Standard
> B- Passive/Automatic Belts  - Sales Code A77
> C- Passive/Inflatible retraints - Sales Code AR3
>
> Also Digit 9 is listed a "Check digit" Whatever that means.
> 10 is model year (L='81)
Oops, I goofied B=81...I was looking at the "M" for productionplant
instead of "C" for model year in my example...

> 11 is plant code  M=Lansing, MI
>                   2=St. Therese, Quebec
>                   X=Fairfax Kansas
>                   E=Linden, NJ
> The remaining 6 are the serial number or "Plant Sequential Number" in
> GM-ese
>
> Remember this is for '82, I think the coding changed after this....
>
> ---M
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >
MMayer@InterAccess.Com                 | Matt Mayer > VM: (800) 481-1323
| "Well, that was interesting......"

- --
- ---M
-
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
MMayer@InterAccess.Com                 | Matt Mayer VM: (800) 481-1323 
		
| "Well, that was interesting......"

------------------------------

From: r_mullen@Merck.Com (R Mullen)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 11:31:00 -0400
Subject: Your Olds and Johnny Law

Bob Handren wrote:

>I recently saw a bumper sticker which says "Protected by Smith & Wesson."

>Works for me.

Doesn't work well for the cop pulling you over for a traffic stop.  Cop
anxiety= Ticket for you.  I'm proud to say that I have never been
convicted of a traffic offense while driving my Olds (lots of wood
knocking here).  To start a new thread, let me share my observation that
if you and your car are clean, the cop usually ends up being more
interested in checking out the car than writing a ticket.  A great
distraction tool is vintage license plates.  When I lived in upstate NY,
I ran the blue/orange 1970 style NY tags on my 442.  Within a month of
putting them (legally) on the car, I had been stopped about a dozen
times, including once for 85 mph in a 55 zone and weaving (I was
checking out the alignment, officer!).  He seemed mighty curious about
my tags, and we soon became engaged in a discussion on them, which ended
up with me giving the officer instructions on how to get them for his
old Mustang.  I guess he didn't have it in his heart to ticket me.  I
should also mention that as I pulled over , I left it in neutral
(4-speed).  I forgot to put it in gear or set the parking brake.  Lo and
behold as I took my foot off the brake in the course of getting out my
wallet, the car started to roll backwards, right towards the cop's car!
He seemed a little cranky at that.  Real smooth move on my part.  Maybe
I didn't get that ticket because he thought I was a moron.  Has anyone
else had similar experiences with the law in their Olds?
Scott Mullen
'70 442

------------------------------

From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg@dlogics.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 11:33:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Instrument Panel Swap

A>>  For reference the order for changing wires when putting a
>> 77' rally pac in a '73 Cutlass Supreme is
>> Gray goes where the striped tan wire was
>> Green > grey
>> blue > black
>> tan > pink
>> black > for seat belt light; tape end and move out of way.
>> pink > blue
>> brown > green
>> tan w/stripe > tan
>
>	^^^^^  I don't think this works for the 78 to 88 Cutlass's. The
>	whole Rallye pack is set up different if I remember right.

Sorry, I would agree the '73-'77 info probably doesn't apply here.
While the color coding of the basic circuits is still the same (e.g.
orange=always_hot; gray=dash_lighting; etc.) the hardware is completely
different. The swapping of wires in the harness plugs required for the
'80's (or '78-up) is necessary to match the printed circuit layout used
on the rectangular cluster design, which of course has nothing in common
with the two-pod design used on the '73-'77 cars (and which, IMHO, was a
gorgeous layout even if a pain to work on).

Andrew C. Green                   (312) 853-8331
Datalogics, Inc.
101 N. Wacker Drive, Ste. 1800    Internet: acg@dlogics.com
Chicago, IL  60606-7301           FAX: (312) 853-8282

------------------------------

From: OldsHeidi@aol.com
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 11:38:23 -0400
Subject: Re: GM Quality (in paint)

Hello,

I would like to pipe in here on the subject of paint.... (see below)

<< so what your saying is that you brought your car to the dealer and they
 > repainted it for free. was there a recall on that car or you just went and
 > asked about the warranty.

 I went & asked.  I was told that there was free work on cars that had
 complaints.

 Bill Culp
 Deccatur, Alabama >>
*********
.Oldsmobile's position is that if a consumer had a concern with paint on
their car we would inspect the concern through the body shop manager and
determine the concern.  If it was something that the customer could not have
prevented we would review the concern for assistance.  There are NO Recalls
for paint, recalls are for safety and emission items only and just as with
any concern outside of warranty we will review a paint concern on an
individual basis.  Some things we look at, age, milage, ownership, concern,
maintenance....If you have a concern with your vehicle you need to have an
Oldsmobile retailer review the paint concern we will then review that concern
on an individual basis for assistance.

Any questions please send me a direct email at Olds Heidi@aol.com or call
Oldsmobile Customer Assistance at 1-800-442-6537.

Sincerely,
Heidi Magyar
Oldsmobile Division

------------------------------

From: r_mullen@Merck.Com (R Mullen)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 11:49:00 -0400
Subject: Bill K. speaks the truth

>The headers were a pain & over the years finally rusted out.  Back went
>the stock manifolds & pipes.  I liked them much better - no more leaking
>gaskets.

>Over all, I found that I had a wonderful driving, fast, ok gas mileage,
>& reliable Olds 455 & the key was the carb, manifold, & distributor.
>The rest made little contirbution to a street car except trouble.  that
>car stayed w/us for 16 years & was always a pleasure.

>Bill Culp
>Decatur, Alabama

Bill speaks the truth!  I had a Mallory dual point distributor, Holley
carb and headers on my 442 when I bought it.  I now use a Q-jet, factory
exhaust manis, and a GM HEI.  Pure motoring pleasure.  His post may well
revive the headers vs. maifolds debate.  IMHO, manifolds are the way to
go for 95% of street applications.  I've ridden in several low 13/ high
12 Olds and Pontiacs that had factory manis.  I'm investing in Wilwood
rear disc brakes this winter for my annual major project, which I
consider a better investment than headers.

 BTW, if anyone is interested, I think I still have the Mallory dual
point up for grabs (i.e. free).  Email me seperately if you are
interested.
Scott Mullen
'70 442
r_mullen@merck.com

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #394
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