
oldsmobile-digest     Thursday, February 19 2004     Volume 01 : Number 4783



Muscle Cars
RE: Muscle Cars
63 Olds - Radiator Hose
Color identification
SERIOUS vibration
Re: Muscle Cars
Re: Automotive Engineers (was Re: The New GTO)
Re: Longevity of newer vs. Older
Re: SERIOUS vibration
Re: Muscle Cars
RE:New Old Eng.Heavy Metal Rockets
Of Airbags and Crush Zones
Re: 63 Olds - Radiator Hose
Re: Of Airbags and Crush Zones
Re: SERIOUS vibration
Re: SERIOUS vibration
Re: Of Airbags and Crush Zones
Re: Of Airbags and Crush Zones
Re: SERIOUS vibration
Re: Muscle Cars
Re: Of Airbags and Crush Zones
Input: Control arms, round or oval bushings?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:31:45 EST
From: ArchwayOldsClub@aol.com
Subject: Muscle Cars

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First of all, MUSCLE cars were not built to road race. They were built to 
DRAG RACE! 
Second: I thought this was an OLDSMOBILE list, who gives a rats patootie 
about the other brands?
Third: If you do regular maintenance on your car it can go 200+K.
I have a 1966 425 with over 200K on it that would still be running if the 
CRAPPY pump gas would not have helpped me crack a piston ring land.

To each his own. Drive what you like, but please only chat about your 
wonderful OLDSMOBILEs. (not including the ones with cheeprolets transplanted into 
them.)

Thank you for your support!

Darren Palmberger
Archway Olds Club 
ArchwayOldsClub@AOL.COM

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; cha=
rset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000a0 size=3D4>First of all, MUS=
CLE cars were not built to road race. They were built to DRAG RACE! </FONT><=
/DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000a0 size=3D4>Second: I thought=
 this was an OLDSMOBILE list, who gives a rats patootie about the other bran=
ds?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000a0 size=3D4>Third: If you do=20=
regular maintenance on your car it can go 200+K.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000a0 size=3D4>I have a 1966 425=
 with over 200K on it that would still be running if the CRAPPY pump gas wou=
ld not have helpped me crack a piston ring land.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000a0 size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DI=
V>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000a0 size=3D4>To each his own.=20=
Drive what you like, but please only chat about your wonderful OLDSMOBILEs.=20=
(not including the ones with cheeprolets transplanted into them.)</FONT></DI=
V>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000a0 size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DI=
V>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" color=3D#0000a0 size=3D4>Thank you for you=
r support!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DStylus size=3D5 PTSIZE=3D"18">Darren Palmberger<B=
R>Archway Olds Club <BR>ArchwayOldsClub@AOL.COM</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:56:54 -0500
From: "John Orr" <olds330@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Muscle Cars

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hmmm, that was pleasant!  :-)
    gives a rats patootie 

john 
67 cutlass supreme
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<HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META charset=US-ASCII http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=US-ASCII">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>hmmm, that was pleasant!&nbsp; :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000a0 size=4>gives a rats patootie </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000a0 size=4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000a0 size=4>john </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000a0 size=4>67 cutlass supreme</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:16:01 EST
From: Kato111@aol.com
Subject: 63 Olds - Radiator Hose

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I ordered a upper radiator hose for my 63 super 88 (394 w/4 barrel), but it 
was about 1-2 inches too short, although the Fusick catalogue stated that it 
would fit (Fusick part #587189).
Does anyone know who may have a upper radiator hose for this car?
Thanks

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<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>I ordered a upper radiator hose for my 63 super 88 (394 w/4 barrel), bu=
t it was about 1-2 inches too short, although the Fusick catalogue stated th=
at it would fit (Fusick part #587189).</DIV>
<DIV>Does anyone know who may have a&nbsp;upper radiator hose for this car?<=
/DIV>
<DIV>Thanks</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:57:56 EST
From: Roncutlass@aol.com
Subject: Color identification

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Can anyone tell me the official color of this 70  that is on E*ay?  
2460491515, also was that an "official 1970 color?  Thanks, Ron


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Can anyone tell me the official col=
or of this 70&nbsp; that is on E*ay?&nbsp; <B>2460491515</B>, also was that=20=
an "official 1970 color?&nbsp; Thanks, Ron<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:48:47 EST
From: Jon442@aol.com
Subject: SERIOUS vibration

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I've had some vibration at highway speed in my '72 Cutlass since I put 
aftermarket wheels on it 5 years ago. I've had them balanced numerous times, but 
since 2 of the wheels are slightly out of round, they won't balance out 
perfectly. I've just learned to live with it, even though it is annoying.

But the other day, when I was out 'exercising' the car, I had to shut it down 
in a hurry when I ran across a deputy while I was doing 85 in a 55 zone. I 
hit the brakes as hard as I could plant my foot in them, and the whole car 
started shaking REALLY bad. I felt like I was in a paint mixer or something. Even 
the guy with me said he had never been in a car that shook that bad. That's the 
first time I have stomped on the brakes at that speed. Can out-of-round 
wheels shake that bad under these conditions? My thought was maybe it might be the 
driveshaft being out of balance. Anybody have any suggestions? The brakes are 
fine, no chattering in the rotors, new pads. This was really scary and I don't 
want to have to duplicate it again.

Fortunately, the deputy must have been on a call or something, because I 
didn't get stopped.

Jon Wessel

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rset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" PTSIZE=3D"10"=
>I've had some vibration at highway speed in my '72 Cutlass since I put afte=
rmarket wheels on it 5 years ago. I've had them balanced numerous times, but=
 since 2 of the wheels are slightly out of round, they won't balance out per=
fectly. I've just learned to live with it, even though it is annoying.</FONT=
></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>But the other day, when I was out 'exercising' the car, I had to shut i=
t down in a hurry when I ran across a deputy while I was doing 85 in a 55 zo=
ne. I hit the brakes as hard as I could plant my foot in them, and the whole=
 car started shaking REALLY bad. I felt like I was in a paint mixer or somet=
hing. Even the guy with me said he had never been in a car that shook that b=
ad. That's the first time I have stomped on the brakes at that speed. Can ou=
t-of-round wheels shake that bad under these conditions? My thought was mayb=
e it might be the driveshaft being out of balance. Anybody have any suggesti=
ons? The brakes are fine, no chattering in the rotors, new pads. This was re=
ally scary and I don't want to have to duplicate it again.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Fortunately, the deputy must have been on a call or something, because=20=
I didn't get stopped.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jon Wessel</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 23:47:41 -0500
From: "Andrew Geeting" <geeting@woh.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Muscle Cars

First of all, MUSCLE cars were not built to road race. They were built to
DRAG RACE!

Who says? You?

Ever hear of the AAR Cuda's? What about the Z28 Camaro with the 302?
Corvette? Firebirds? Drag racing is boring!! :))

Andrew Geeting
geeting@woh.rr.com
'87 Cutlass Supreme 461
'98 Olds Intrigue 3.8L
http://home.woh.rr.com/designsofarch/index/olds_site/olds.swf

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:03:54 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Automotive Engineers (was Re: The New GTO)

The original "Ram-Charger" racing team was made up of "car-guy" engineers at
Chrysler in 1957-1960. Their exploits led directly to the 413/426 cross-ram
wedges, the 727 Tork-Flyte for racing (3 push buttons and one zipped from
start to finish extremely quick), the 426 Hemi, and factory race cars
purchased "in-the-white" from the dealer's showroom.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com


- ----- Original Message -----
From: <joevitek@comcast.net>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 8:47 AM
Subject: Automotive Engineers (was Re: The New GTO)


> > He spoke only of things such as "modulus of elasticity of
> > the intended component material".  He couldn't change a spark plug in
his
> > own minivan, for crying out loud, let alone build an engine or a car.
THESE
> > are the types that are putting out the cars you see from Detroit that
you
> > all dig. ;-)
>
> Designing parts to work is all about engineering requirements. If the
designed part meets the engineering requirements, the engineer is done
(sounds like that guy). It's too bad that a lot of engineers are not into
the "big picture" (some are though). They are just there to design to
requirements and get their pay. However, the systems engineer had better
know the overall picture (the guy that came up with the requirements for the
subsytems and parts). Talk to some automotive systems level guys and see
what they know about changing spark plugs. If they look at you with a
faraway stare, steer clear. They are not car guys.
>
> --
> joe vitek
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:17:24 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Longevity of newer vs. Older

However, there's a catch; a point everyone's missing. For those of you who
restore your cars to original condition, much of these mods can also be
done.

Why do you want an older car? Because you like it! Okay, then what? It's
old. It probably needs to be repaired or restored. When the R&R is being
done, why not build your car better than it was when it came from the
factory? Yes, even an old '64 A-body can be built to rival or greatly
surpass the stopping power, handling ability, and safety of a 2005 vehicle.
If the car's stopping and handling ability is of outstanding quality, one
can drive their way out of the majority of bad situations.

By increasing the performance of the powertrain, then one has the best of
all worlds. The equivalent of a brand new car in one's older vehicle, that
will out perform anything currently made. Now that's where the challenge is
and the fun in our Oldsmobile pastime.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 23:11:54 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: SERIOUS vibration

Jon,

> I've had some vibration at highway speed in my '72 Cutlass since I put
> aftermarket wheels on it 5 years ago. I've had them balanced numerous
times, but
> since 2 of the wheels are slightly out of round, they won't balance out
> perfectly.


As soon as you discovered those 2 wheels were out-of-round, they should have
been returned to the store and replaced under warranty. There's no excuse
for new wheels being out-of-round.


> But the other day, when I was out 'exercising' the car, I had to shut it
down
> in a hurry when I ran across a deputy while I was doing 85 in a 55 zone. I
> hit the brakes as hard as I could plant my foot in them, and the whole car
> started shaking REALLY bad. I felt like I was in a paint mixer or
something. Even
> the guy with me said he had never been in a car that shook that bad.
That's the
> first time I have stomped on the brakes at that speed. Can out-of-round
> wheels shake that bad under these conditions?


Absolutely!


> My thought was maybe it might be the
> driveshaft being out of balance. Anybody have any suggestions?


Sure, there could be problems with the driveshaft, but as long as you have
those 2 bad wheels, it will mask many other conditions. It's easy to get
under the car and check the u-joints on a driveshaft with a long
screwdriver. If nothing's wrong with the u-joints, replace those 2 wheels.
For safety's sake, I'd replace those 2 wheels immediately.

I don't want you to get hurt or hurt your car.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 23:41:47 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Muscle Cars

> First of all, MUSCLE cars were not built to road race. They were built to
> DRAG RACE!

GAKKKKKK! Sorry, not on this planet!

Take a look at Trans-Am ***road*** racing in the late '60s through the '70s.
It was the exclusive province of Camaroes and Firebirds. Do you like speeds
of 175 MPH in a straight-a-way in a Camaro or Firebird??? Ever hear of a
Pontiac Trans-Am Firebird??? Also, have you ever heard of BF Goodrich T/A
Radials??? The first generation T/A radials with 6-ply Rayon cord
construction were made for Trans-Am racing and then the exact same tire was
sold for the street. That marketing genius earned BF Goodrich tremendous
performance tire market share, with the first DOT approved tire to ever be
an outstanding performer on the road racing track and the oval racing track.
It also worked in the rain. Two years ago, I finally replaced Thunder's
L60x15 first generation T/A Rayon radials, that she had been running since
the Spring of 1975, with current generation (about 5th) P275/60R15 T/A Comp
Radials. Trans-An racing is **the** reason BF Goodrich's premier performance
tire is called "T/A."

Furthermore, how much Oldsmobile literature would you like for me to forward
to you ***specifically*** stating the 442 performance package will
***produce a car with outstanding handling and cornering ability***? The
original '64 442 option was the A-body police pursuit package that
specifically included a handling package for police pursuit vehicles. Olds
always concentrated on handling for the 442s!

Finally, tell that to MOPAR and the factory in-the-white road race and oval
race cars one could buy from one's friendly neighborhood MOPAR dealer from
1962 to 1968, sporting single quad (as per the rules) 413 and 426 wedges and
426 Hemis that no one in their right mind would tangle with on the street,
unless one also had an equvalent big stick.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass, AKA Thunder Lizard, who has stayed side-by side a friend's
dual-quad 427 AC Cobra through the corners and on the straight-a-ways.
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 01:53:52 -0500
From: Cutlass7276@netscape.net (Randy Hermsen)
Subject: RE:New Old Eng.Heavy Metal Rockets

Hello
Ya should see the look on kids faces when a big blk 58 leaves them standing still in there newer model appliances :)
I was told 58 was last year body designers had a free hand,there was such a up roar after 58 GM told them what to do from 59 and on?
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3596099/1078125063249_0214_019.jpg 
The 58 sure looks like a rocket ready to take off.
Wonder if the designers hung around a airforce base much?
In the movie "Heavy Metal"... what was the car flying around?...a 57 vet?
Opened up the end carbs last sun. :)
Need duals or and headers.
April 10-11 we will book a time.
http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3596099/1075005395134_0118_001.jpg 
Randy H.
Van.B.C.Can.



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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 21:59:32 -0600
From: "Paul Pate" <rocket455@swbell.net>
Subject: Of Airbags and Crush Zones

I can understand the theory of crush zones but air bags confuse me. If the
airbag were to work theoretically, it would have to deploy at the same rate
the collision occurs, say milliseconds. If the vehicle underwent a 10g
deceleration, would it not transfer most of that negative acceleration to
your body?

Another question. Why don't they use airbags in race cars? I read an article
in Automotive Engineering magazine awhile back that accelerometers placed in
some Indy cars showed that drivers were surviving 15g forces during 180+mph
collisions. NASCAR vehicles have strong tubular chassis and cages (no
airbags). I think these drivers have more accidents per mile than MOST
people, but it is rare that any drivers are badly injured or die, even at
200mph.

What gives?

Paul Pate

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 00:10:34 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: 63 Olds - Radiator Hose

Old catalogs are handy.

My 1983 Gates catalog shows a '63 fullsize Olds with a 4 barrel 394 takes a
20488 upper hose and a 2 barrel 394 takes a 20488(A) upper hose. What that
means is that a 20488 is sold for both applications, but for a 2 barrel, the
hose is cut off at the "A" mark to make it a little shorter. From your
description, it would appear the Fusick hose was made to match the shorter 2
barrel application hose, but from your experience, that hose is wrong for a
4 barrel application.

'61-'62 and '64 Olds fullsize 394s are listed as the same. Fusick made a
mistake with their hose reproduction by matching it to the shorter 2 barrel
hose. The only other hope is that hose was mixed into the Fusick batch by
mistake and there are some longer ones sitting in the bin. Otherwise, try
Gates and Dayco to see if that hose is still available.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com


- ----- Original Message -----
From: <Kato111@aol.com>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 6:16 PM
Subject: 63 Olds - Radiator Hose


> I ordered a upper radiator hose for my 63 super 88 (394 w/4 barrel), but
it
> was about 1-2 inches too short, although the Fusick catalogue stated that
it
> would fit (Fusick part #587189).
> Does anyone know who may have a upper radiator hose for this car?
> Thanks
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 00:38:34 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Of Airbags and Crush Zones

Paul,



> I can understand the theory of crush zones but air bags confuse me. If the
> airbag were to work theoretically, it would have to deploy at the same
rate
> the collision occurs, say milliseconds. If the vehicle underwent a 10g
> deceleration, would it not transfer most of that negative acceleration to
> your body?


The idea is to place a big air bag in front of you, deployed fast enough to
bleed off the deceleration forces throwing you forward into the energy
absorbing softness of the air bag. As long as the air bag keeps you from
hitting the steering wheel or the dash, it did its job.


> Another question. Why don't they use airbags in race cars?


Because a race driver won't tolerate it. The air bag will not deflate fast
enough to let the driver bail out under his own power, if he's able, after
the car comes to a stop.


> I read an article
> in Automotive Engineering magazine awhile back that accelerometers placed
in
> some Indy cars showed that drivers were surviving 15g forces during
180+mph
> collisions.


So do military pilots.


> NASCAR vehicles have strong tubular chassis and cages (no
> airbags). I think these drivers have more accidents per mile than MOST
> people, but it is rare that any drivers are badly injured or die, even at
> 200mph.
>
> What gives?


Race car drivers and military pilots use very efficient 4-point and 5-point
seat/shoulder/submarine harness systems that will protect them from a lot of
impact and deceleration. The average car buyer/owner/user would not put up
with those restraining belt systems for a split-second. One straps on the
race car or aircraft. Also, the Nomex fire retardant racing suits and flight
suits worn by these people protect them from fire for a few minutes, as well
as their direct impact Halon or Halon substitute fire suppression systems.

Yes, as far as I'm concerned, the racing type restraining harness systems
are orders of magnitude safer than an air bag or current car belt systems. I
*do* use racing type 3" wide seat belts on our Olds A-bodies. The 3" wide
belt will spread deceleration and impact force over a wider area on the
human body, resulting in less psi, causing much less internal injury during
a crash.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 04:02:19 EST
From: Tremendous442@aol.com
Subject: Re: SERIOUS vibration

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The problem with your car is the front brake rotors. They are no longer 
"flat", which means they are warped. This is fairly common and no big deal. You 
might be able to get away with machining them, but I do not would not advise it. 
Even if they make it over the minimum spec, I am sure they would be very close 
to the min spec. This means they will be thin and will warp even easier next 
time because there is less metal to dissapate the heat. Get new rotors and 
check to make sure they are strait before driving the car with a dial indicator. 
You can of course machine them if they are out, but once again we have less 
metal and you know what that means. Go a step better and get some of the new 
slotted and drill rotors, and less heat will build up. Check to make sure your 
calipers are not sticking as well and look at the brake hoses too. Any cracking 
at all and replace the hoses.

Sean

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; cha=
rset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>The problem with your car is the front brake rotors. They are no longer=
 "flat", which means they are warped. This is fairly common and no big deal.=
 You might be able to get away with machining them, but I do not would not a=
dvise it. Even if they make it over the minimum spec, I am sure they would b=
e very close to the min spec. This means they will be thin and will warp eve=
n easier next time because there is less metal to dissapate the heat. Get ne=
w rotors and check to make sure they are strait before driving the car with=20=
a dial indicator. You can of course machine them if they are out, but once a=
gain we have less metal and you know what that means. Go a step better and g=
et some of the new slotted and drill rotors, and less heat will build up. Ch=
eck to make sure your calipers are not sticking as well and look at the brak=
e hoses too. Any cracking at all and replace the hoses.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Sean</DIV></BODY></HTML>

- -------------------------------1077181339--

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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 04:04:50 EST
From: Tremendous442@aol.com
Subject: Re: SERIOUS vibration

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The thing is, he said as soon as he hit the BRAKES the car started shaking. 
Not the wheels, not the driveshaft. Rotors are warped, I am sure or this. If it 
has drum brakes, the drums are out of round. See my previous reply.

Sean

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<META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; cha=
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<DIV>The thing is, he said as soon as he hit the BRAKES the car started shak=
ing. Not the wheels, not the driveshaft. Rotors are warped, I am sure or thi=
s. If it has drum brakes, the drums are out of round. See my previous reply.=
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Sean</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 04:16:17 -0500
From: "Andrew Geeting" <geeting@woh.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Of Airbags and Crush Zones

Would you want to crawl in and out of the window of your daily driver, snake
your way around all of the roll cage tubes, only have one seat, buckle a 5pt
safety harness, put on helmet, etc. just to run down to your local
supermarket? I don't think so.

The fact is, production vehicles are one huge compromise in just about
everything. You want the safety of the full roll cage but then you also want
the ease of entry and seating for 5-6 people also. You just can't have
everything.
Thats why I think airbags, side curtain airbags, door air bags, and such are
implemented so much today. Easier packaging than a roll cage but offer
better protection than nothing at all.

Personally, I would rather hit a pillow of air than the steering wheel or
windshield.

Andrew Geeting
geeting@woh.rr.com
'87 Cutlass Supreme 461
'98 Olds Intrigue 3.8L
http://home.woh.rr.com/designsofarch/index/olds_site/olds.swf



> Another question. Why don't they use airbags in race cars? I read an
article
> in Automotive Engineering magazine awhile back that accelerometers placed
in
> some Indy cars showed that drivers were surviving 15g forces during
180+mph
> collisions. NASCAR vehicles have strong tubular chassis and cages (no
> airbags). I think these drivers have more accidents per mile than MOST
> people, but it is rare that any drivers are badly injured or die, even at
> 200mph.
>
> What gives?
>
> Paul Pate
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 02:45:53 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Of Airbags and Crush Zones

Exactly. That's all that can be sold to the general public.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Geeting" <geeting@woh.rr.com>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 2:16 AM
Subject: Re: Of Airbags and Crush Zones


> Would you want to crawl in and out of the window of your daily driver,
snake
> your way around all of the roll cage tubes, only have one seat, buckle a
5pt
> safety harness, put on helmet, etc. just to run down to your local
> supermarket? I don't think so.
>
> The fact is, production vehicles are one huge compromise in just about
> everything. You want the safety of the full roll cage but then you also
want
> the ease of entry and seating for 5-6 people also. You just can't have
> everything.
> Thats why I think airbags, side curtain airbags, door air bags, and such
are
> implemented so much today. Easier packaging than a roll cage but offer
> better protection than nothing at all.
>
> Personally, I would rather hit a pillow of air than the steering wheel or
> windshield.
>
> Andrew Geeting
> geeting@woh.rr.com
> '87 Cutlass Supreme 461
> '98 Olds Intrigue 3.8L
> http://home.woh.rr.com/designsofarch/index/olds_site/olds.swf
>
>
>
> > Another question. Why don't they use airbags in race cars? I read an
> article
> > in Automotive Engineering magazine awhile back that accelerometers
placed
> in
> > some Indy cars showed that drivers were surviving 15g forces during
> 180+mph
> > collisions. NASCAR vehicles have strong tubular chassis and cages (no
> > airbags). I think these drivers have more accidents per mile than MOST
> > people, but it is rare that any drivers are badly injured or die, even
at
> > 200mph.
> >
> > What gives?
> >
> > Paul Pate
> >
> >
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 06:19:23 EST
From: Jon442@aol.com
Subject: Re: SERIOUS vibration

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Sean, the brake system is totally new with less than 7000 miles on them. New 
calipers, new rotors, new pads, new hoses.... everything. And they don't 
pulsate at all when the brakes are applied.

Jon

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<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>Sean, the brake system is totally new with less than 7000 miles on them=
. New calipers, new rotors, new pads, new hoses.... everything. And they don=
't pulsate at all when the brakes are applied.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" PTSIZE=3D"10"=
>Jon</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 06:40:03 -0500
From: "ron fama" <77w30442@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Muscle Cars

  what the heck good is any muscle car if it did not handle well.
  that was the purpose of the road coarse  any manufacture use's to make sure the  car can make a
sharp turn, and not slide out in the turns. and it stopped  in a respectable distance and time. if
the car handled like crap it would be no fun to drive. and dangerous.
  regaurdless of muscle car or daily driver a good handleing car is just as important as the driver.
if you  can drive and use the cars steering and brakeing system that in its self  makes it a safe
car . abs is there to assist  the people who do not know how to use the breaks in a emergency,
   my 77 cutlass handles great and hauls a$$.  or should say it used too before i decided to restore
it.
  ron


      ---- Original Message ----- 
  From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
  To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
  Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 1:41 AM
  Subject: Re: Muscle Cars


  > > First of all, MUSCLE cars were not built to road race. They were built to
  > > DRAG RACE!
  >
  > GAKKKKKK! Sorry, not on this planet!
  >
  > Take a look at Trans-Am ***road*** racing in the late '60s through the '70s.
  > It was the exclusive province of Camaroes and Firebirds. Do you like speeds
  > of 175 MPH in a straight-a-way in a Camaro or Firebird??? Ever hear of a
  > Pontiac Trans-Am Firebird??? Also, have you ever heard of BF Goodrich T/A
  > Radials??? The first generation T/A radials with 6-ply Rayon cord
  > construction were made for Trans-Am racing and then the exact same tire was
  > sold for the street. That marketing genius earned BF Goodrich tremendous
  > performance tire market share, with the first DOT approved tire to ever be
  > an outstanding performer on the road racing track and the oval racing track.
  > It also worked in the rain. Two years ago, I finally replaced Thunder's
  > L60x15 first generation T/A Rayon radials, that she had been running since
  > the Spring of 1975, with current generation (about 5th) P275/60R15 T/A Comp
  > Radials. Trans-An racing is **the** reason BF Goodrich's premier performance
  > tire is called "T/A."
  >
  > Furthermore, how much Oldsmobile literature would you like for me to forward
  > to you ***specifically*** stating the 442 performance package will
  > ***produce a car with outstanding handling and cornering ability***? The
  > original '64 442 option was the A-body police pursuit package that
  > specifically included a handling package for police pursuit vehicles. Olds
  > always concentrated on handling for the 442s!
  >
  > Finally, tell that to MOPAR and the factory in-the-white road race and oval
  > race cars one could buy from one's friendly neighborhood MOPAR dealer from
  > 1962 to 1968, sporting single quad (as per the rules) 413 and 426 wedges and
  > 426 Hemis that no one in their right mind would tangle with on the street,
  > unless one also had an equvalent big stick.
  >
  > Milton Schick
  > 1964 442 Cutlass, AKA Thunder Lizard, who has stayed side-by side a friend's
  > dual-quad 427 AC Cobra through the corners and on the straight-a-ways.
  > imp@theriver.com
  >
  >
  >
  >

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 06:42:00 -0500
From: "ron fama" <77w30442@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Of Airbags and Crush Zones

  but now they added side impact air bags
  what a crushing feeling
  ron
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
  To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
  Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 2:38 AM
  Subject: Re: Of Airbags and Crush Zones


  > Paul,
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > > I can understand the theory of crush zones but air bags confuse me. If the
  > > airbag were to work theoretically, it would have to deploy at the same
  > rate
  > > the collision occurs, say milliseconds. If the vehicle underwent a 10g
  > > deceleration, would it not transfer most of that negative acceleration to
  > > your body?
  > 
  > 
  > The idea is to place a big air bag in front of you, deployed fast enough to
  > bleed off the deceleration forces throwing you forward into the energy
  > absorbing softness of the air bag. As long as the air bag keeps you from
  > hitting the steering wheel or the dash, it did its job.
  > 
  > 
  > > Another question. Why don't they use airbags in race cars?
  > 
  > 
  > Because a race driver won't tolerate it. The air bag will not deflate fast
  > enough to let the driver bail out under his own power, if he's able, after
  > the car comes to a stop.
  > 
  > 
  > > I read an article
  > > in Automotive Engineering magazine awhile back that accelerometers placed
  > in
  > > some Indy cars showed that drivers were surviving 15g forces during
  > 180+mph
  > > collisions.
  > 
  > 
  > So do military pilots.
  > 
  > 
  > > NASCAR vehicles have strong tubular chassis and cages (no
  > > airbags). I think these drivers have more accidents per mile than MOST
  > > people, but it is rare that any drivers are badly injured or die, even at
  > > 200mph.
  > >
  > > What gives?
  > 
  > 
  > Race car drivers and military pilots use very efficient 4-point and 5-point
  > seat/shoulder/submarine harness systems that will protect them from a lot of
  > impact and deceleration. The average car buyer/owner/user would not put up
  > with those restraining belt systems for a split-second. One straps on the
  > race car or aircraft. Also, the Nomex fire retardant racing suits and flight
  > suits worn by these people protect them from fire for a few minutes, as well
  > as their direct impact Halon or Halon substitute fire suppression systems.
  > 
  > Yes, as far as I'm concerned, the racing type restraining harness systems
  > are orders of magnitude safer than an air bag or current car belt systems. I
  > *do* use racing type 3" wide seat belts on our Olds A-bodies. The 3" wide
  > belt will spread deceleration and impact force over a wider area on the
  > human body, resulting in less psi, causing much less internal injury during
  > a crash.
  > 
  > Milton Schick
  > 1964 442 Cutlass
  > imp@theriver.com
  > 
  > 
  > 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 07:40:34 -0500
From: "Paul Tumolo" <ptumolo@comcast.net>
Subject: Input: Control arms, round or oval bushings?

The control arms with the oval and round bushings are interchangeable.
There are some things to be aware of when you do this work:

1. Get a Service Manual. There are specific processes that need to be
followed (spring removal, ball joint R&R, torque specs, etc.)
2. Tools Required: spring compressor, ball joint press, torque wrench,
air tools are nice!
3. It is Dirty. Suggest that you steam clean the suspension first
4. Other might as wells: I would replace the upper ball joints, sway bar
bushings and links, shocks, paint and detail.
5. The trick with the bushings is to support the control arm but using
steel blocks to prevent the arm from collapsing while you press the
bushings in and out.

It is not hard to do. Just be sure that you have the right tools and
information. The changes you will make have a profound positive impact
on how the car drives.

BTW, be sure to use Neevr Seeze on all the bolts and nuts upon assembly.

Paul Tumolo
1970 442 Hardtop with all new MOOG front end stuff
OCA # 31967 

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #4783
*********************************
