
oldsmobile-digest      Monday, January 26 2004      Volume 01 : Number 4755



Re: 350 W31 forged pistons- is 2.5 thou too tight? 
Re: 350 rebuild progress- crank is in, bores too small? 
Re: 350 W31 forged pistons- is 2.5 thou too tight? 
Engine Frame mounts
Re: Barrett Jackson Auction
Re: Barrett Jackson Auction
Re: Barrett Jackson and Everett
Re: 350 W31 forged pistons- is 2.5 thou too tight? 
Re: Barrett Jackson Auction
RE: Lenny Kravitz Olds
Spendy 1967 Olds 400cid Lifters "957"
RE: 350 W31 forged pistons- is 2.5 thou too tight? 
Re: Spendy 1967 Olds 400cid Lifters "957"
Re: 350 W31 forged pistons- is 2.5 thou too tight?
Ground shipping
Re: Ground shipping
Thanks Chris W!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 12:04:23 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: 350 W31 forged pistons- is 2.5 thou too tight? 

> What say ye, experts? Milton?


Contact TRW tech support and see what they say.

Specifications and materials and designs used now may be different than the
standards used 30 years ago.

If the cam button bolt doesn't do anything, replace it with a regular bolt,
removing excess mass from the cam/timing gear assembly. If I have an Olds
engine that I know will never see a mechanical fuel pump, I throw away the
fuel pump eccentric and make up the thickness difference under the cam
button bolt with an exact thickness washer. I wouldn't expect to see any
marks on the back of the timing cover on an engine that had only seen normal
driving conditions. On an engine that will be run hard, Murphy and his
family says "don't mess with Mother Nature."

However, I just looked at the backside of the timing cover from the 425 I
stripped down (Mark Mullins knows this engine, for he helped move it). The
backside of the timing cover has a plainly visible mark in the oil sludge
and varnish where the cam button was twirling on the back of the timing
cover, with a polished metal spot in the center. I'd say that cam was
continuously thrusted forward by engine operation.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 12:08:28 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: 350 rebuild progress- crank is in, bores too small? 

> Ultrasonic may be the way to go but where you'd get one of those is quite
> beyond me ;o\


That's readily available, but the price tag for a small one that will handle
a large metal mass is quite high, with prices going up to the grand mark for
bigger ones.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 15:53:31 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: 350 W31 forged pistons- is 2.5 thou too tight? 

Chris,

> Did the factory put the wrong info sheet in... one for cast pistons? Why
> would TRW not list 2320F pistons on the sheet which appears to include
every
> piston they make?  Some pistons are listed with "F" suffix... but not
> 2320's.


Look inside the piston under the piston top. You can get a very good idea
what type of manufacturing process was used.

1) If the inside is somewhat shinny with flow marks in the aluminum, as if a
heavy punch formed the hot aluminum slug into a mold, then the piston is
forged.

2) If the inside of the piston has a uniform flat matte finish with fine
grain texture, somewhat like the appearance of a cast aluminum intake
manifold, then the piston is cast.

3) If the piston has a steel plate formed into the inside of the piston pin
boss on each side of the piston (generally always on the inside but I've
seen a few on the outside), regardless of the interior appearance of the
piston, then the piston is an autothermic.


> Feeler gages says piston to bore clearance just under rings is 2 to 2.5
> thou.
> I thought forged pistons were supposed to be about 4-5 thou


I depends on the manufacturer and how he designed the piston for expansion
to the bore under normal operating temperatures. There's no way to second
guess the design, since you don't know what it was.

I won't trust a feeler gauge to measure a bore under any circumstances. The
geometry is wrong. I will only use an outside mike for the piston and an
inside mike for the bore. That way, there's no fun and games. It's true
geometry.

As I said, contact TRW tech support and ask them.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 19:28:32 -0500
From: "Dan Roethel" <droethel@rogers.com>
Subject: Engine Frame mounts

Does anyone have a set of 69-72 Cutlass engine frame mounts for a 455 they'd
like to sell?
Email me privately
droethel@rogers.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 21:14:34 EST
From: S61starfir@aol.com
Subject: Re: Barrett Jackson Auction

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In a message dated 1/23/2004 4:48:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Fleetsuper@msn.com writes:

How about the gorgeous 61 Starfire convertible that went for $38,5000.  Now
that will help elevate the prices of big car Olds.  Or then again..

Mike Stilwell  OCA #13273
President - Capitol City Rockets
    I went over that car real close, it is real nice, probably one of the 
nicest restored ones I've seen, everything was correct.
    The guy who bought it is from Torrance CA and he aleady has one and his 
nephew has two.


Everett   OCA# 1961    1961 Starfire

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUTF-8 http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charse=
t=3Dutf-8">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 1/23/2004 4:48:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, Fleetsup=
er@msn.com writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue=20=
2px solid"><BR><FONT face=3DArial>How about the gorgeous 61 Starfire convert=
ible that went for $38,5000.&nbsp; Now<BR>that will help elevate the prices=20=
of big car Olds.&nbsp; Or then again..<BR><BR>Mike Stilwell&nbsp; OCA #13273=
<BR>President - Capitol City Rockets</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I went over that car real close, it is real nice, pr=
obably one of the nicest restored ones I've seen, everything was correct.</D=
IV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The guy who bought it is from Torrance CA and he ale=
ady has one and his nephew has two.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Everett&nbsp;&nbsp; OCA# 1961&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1961 Starfire</DIV></BO=
DY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 21:27:22 EST
From: S61starfir@aol.com
Subject: Re: Barrett Jackson Auction

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In a message dated 1/22/2004 11:07:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
droethel@rogers.com writes:
Watching the auction on Speed Vision. They just sold a 69 442 W-32
convertible for $64,000.00
Wonder if a list member bought it.


      Don't know who bought it bought but I was looking it over on the 
staging area before it went on the block. "F" block and "E" heads, whats wrong with 
that picture. Also there were bolts missing from the A/C comp bracket where it 
bolted to the front of the head and a couple of wire ties were used to hold 
on relays.
    For $64,000 I would want a correct and perfect car, how about you


Everett   OCA# 1961   1961 Starfire

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t=3Dutf-8">
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<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 1/22/2004 11:07:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, droethe=
l@rogers.com writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue=20=
2px solid"><FONT face=3DArial>Watching the auction on Speed Vision. They jus=
t sold a 69 442 W-32<BR>convertible for $64,000.00<BR>Wonder if a list membe=
r bought it.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Don't know who bought it bought but I wa=
s looking it over on the staging area before it went on the block.&nbsp;"F"=20=
block and "E" heads, whats wrong with that picture. Also there were bolts mi=
ssing from the A/C comp bracket where it bolted to the front of the head and=
 a couple of wire ties were used to hold on relays.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; For $64,000 I would want a correct and perfect car,=20=
how about you</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Everett&nbsp;&nbsp; OCA# 1961&nbsp;&nbsp; 1961 Starfire</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

- -------------------------------1075084042--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 21:48:34 EST
From: S61starfir@aol.com
Subject: Re: Barrett Jackson and Everett

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In a message dated 1/25/2004 2:01:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
carcouple@cox.net writes:
Had a nice time tonight at the local weekly Pavilions car show  with 
Everett Horton, his buddy from Rhode Island, and Karl Sup.  There were 931 
cars at the show tonight.  The cool (68) cloudy weather held down the 
crowd.  Everett really enjoyed the last 2 days at the Barrett Jackson 
auction, and has taken hundreds of pictures. He is already planning to come 
back next year. It will probably take a few days for Everett's lower jaw to 
get back in place after his exposure to all those nice cars.

I'm sure he will have a good report for the list early in the week.

Joe Varley
      AZ
    It was a real cruise night, a little bit of everything no matter what 
your taste, it was cool at night but not the 5 degrees it is now here back in New 
England.
   Nice solid 1972 442 you have there Joe, wish we could find stuff like that 
back here.
   Thanks for everything.  Looking forward to Barrett-Jackson next year


Everett  OCA# 1961   1961 Starfire

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUTF-8 http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charse=
t=3Dutf-8">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 1/25/2004 2:01:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, carcoupl=
e@cox.net writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue=20=
2px solid"><FONT face=3DArial>Had a nice time tonight at the local weekly Pa=
vilions car show&nbsp; with <BR>Everett Horton, his buddy from Rhode Island,=
 and Karl Sup.&nbsp; There were 931 <BR>cars at the show tonight.&nbsp; The=20=
cool (68) cloudy weather held down the <BR>crowd.&nbsp; Everett really enjoy=
ed the last 2 days at the Barrett Jackson <BR>auction, and has taken hundred=
s of pictures. He is already planning to come <BR>back next year. It will pr=
obably take a few days for Everett's lower jaw to <BR>get back in place afte=
r his exposure to all those nice cars.<BR><BR>I'm sure he will have a good r=
eport for the list early in the week.<BR><BR>Joe Varley<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; AZ</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It was a real cruise night, a little bit of everythi=
ng no matter what your taste, it was cool at night but not the 5 degrees it=20=
is now here back in New England.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp; Nice solid 1972 442 you have there Joe, wish we could find=
 stuff like that back here.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks for everything.&nbsp; Looking forward to Barrett-Ja=
ckson next year</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Everett&nbsp; OCA# 1961&nbsp;&nbsp; 1961 Starfire</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 23:17:00 -0500
From: Robert Barry <rbarry@providence.edu>
Subject: Re: 350 W31 forged pistons- is 2.5 thou too tight? 

At 11:19 AM 1/25/04 -0500, you wrote:
>Feeler gages says piston to bore clearance just under rings is 2 to 2.5 thou.
>I thought forged pistons were supposed to be about 4-5 thou
>
>Yet, TRW factory literature with the pistons says 2 to 2.5 thou
>BUT, they list the pistons as "2320" - NOT _2320F_ as in F for FORGED.

The +.030 forged TRW set in my 403 called for such clearances, and when I 
tore it down after a few years of not-so-gentle use, the cylinder-bores 
still showed their hatch-marks, with no signs of galling.

I too was surprised by the tight clearances, but they specifically called 
for that, and it worked fine for me.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 00:49:29 EST
From: Uncleboffo@aol.com
Subject: Re: Barrett Jackson Auction

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I was told by buddy of mine that the car in question was once owned by a 
gentleman names Craig and was restored by a fellow named Tim Murphy.
   And it has NOT the original motor (block) and is NOT a W32.
   So we are talking about a $64,000. CLONE!!!!!
    Very interesting Yes?



Bob Iozia 
'77 Vette    '77 Vette    '61 Olds F-85 Cutlass

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">I was told by buddy of mine that th=
e car in question was once owned by a gentleman names Craig and was restored=
 by a fellow named Tim Murphy.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; And it has NOT the original motor (block) and is NOT a W32.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; So we are talking about a $64,000. CLONE!!!!!<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Very interesting Yes?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#0000ff" BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR:=20=
#ffffff" SIZE=3D4 PTSIZE=3D14 FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT" FACE=3D"Comic Sans MS" LANG=
=3D"0"><B>Bob Iozia <BR>
'77 Vette&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; '77 Vette&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; '61 Olds F-85 Cutlas=
s</B></FONT></HTML>

- --part1_1d3.18843d55.2d460469_boundary--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 09:06:54 -0500
From: "Dave Wyatt" <wyattolds@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Lenny Kravitz Olds

Looks like that was an easy way to inflate the price.  Celebrity buys car 
for X amount, sells for XX amount since it is now owned by a celebrity.  
Total BS.



Dave Wyatt
70  4-4-2
67 Vista Cruiser





>From: "Mike Stilwell" <Fleetsuper@msn.com>
>Reply-To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
>To: "Oldsmobile" <Oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
>Subject: Lenny Kravitz Olds
>Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 13:28:51 -0500
>
>You folks see the article in the current JWO about Lenny Kravitz and his
>Olds.  I guess since he just sold it, he fell out of love with his new 
>ride.
>
>Mike Stilwell  OCA #13273
>President - Capitol City Rockets
>http://www.bigmikes442.com

_________________________________________________________________
High-speed users—be more efficient online with the new MSN Premium Internet 
Software. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 09:20:47 -0500
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: Spendy 1967 Olds 400cid Lifters "957"

Hi there.  I was wondering if you guys handled any 1966-67 Olds 400 
hydraulic lifters.  They are incredibly hard to find unless you're willing 
to pay a ridiculous amount.  If you don't, I would appreciate being pointed 
into the right direction.  I've tried Mondello but they want more than I am 
able to spend.  Thanks guys!  Chris
==============
No, it's a conspiracy, they are all the exact same price, too, like $16 
EACH... or close to $200/set with shipping. Same story with drag link for 
say 1968 98. You can find them... if you shop around enough, but the price 
is always the same ridiculous number, like exactly to the penny the same- 
$175 delivered.

I wish I knew how to get some cheaper 0.921 lifters...
Try looking for lifters for a 1959 Olds 394, maybe, it's the same lifter, 
but maybe they don't ream you if you ask for that.  I know "951" is the 
common small size and "957" is the rare pricey unit.
If you find out a source, please share it, after you buy all you need of 
course.

I had a phone # of a guy who said he could get 'em for $100/set, but last 
time I called, # no longer in service. That was like 2 yrs ago anyhow.
- -----------------------
Chris Witt
1303 W. Miller Rd.
Lansing MI 48911

RocketScience442@hotmail.com

Cell 517-449-0432 weekends or short weekday calls or leave message.
Home 517-882-9747 thru 10-11pm MI time most days

_________________________________________________________________
High-speed users—be more efficient online with the new MSN Premium Internet 
Software. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 09:14:03 -0700
From: "Schopen, Kenneth" <kenneth.schopen@medtronic.com>
Subject: RE: 350 W31 forged pistons- is 2.5 thou too tight? 

> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 11:19:23 -0500
> From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
> Subject: 350 W31 forged pistons- is 2.5 thou too tight? 
> 
> Feeler gages says piston to bore clearance just under rings 
> is 2 to 2.5 thou.
> I thought forged pistons were supposed to be about 4-5 thou
> 
> Yet, TRW factory literature with the pistons says 2 to 2.5 thou

snip
 
> What say ye, experts? Milton?
> - -----------------------
> Chris Witt
> 1303 W. Miller Rd.
> Lansing MI 48911
> 
> RocketScience442@hotmail.com

I'm definitely no expert, but I have read what I can on the clearance 
needed for these pistons since I have a set that will go into my 400 E 
block. I am planning to run about 5 thou clearance as everything I have 
read, other than TRW's literature, says that 2 to 2.5 thou is too tight. 
I would rather err slightly on the loose side than the other way around.

Kenneth
1971 Cutlass Supreme convertible
Phoenix, AZ

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 10:56:49 -0500
From: SteveH <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: Spendy 1967 Olds 400cid Lifters "957"

At Monday, 26 January 2004, you wrote:
>I wish I knew how to get some cheaper 0.921 lifters...
>Try looking for lifters for a 1959 Olds 394, maybe, it's 
>the same lifter, but maybe they don't ream you if you ask 
>for that.

It's also the same lifter used on the 350DX dissel engines. I wonder 
if the few remaining shops that service Olds dissels have them any 
cheaper??

What I don't know is whether the 260 dissel also used the 0.921" 
lifters. Doesn't really matter since only a cupla suckers bought 
one them; but I'm curious. And how bout the Olds 262 V6 dissel (was 
there really such an engine???).

SteveH



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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 12:54:03 -0500
From: robert.demuth@prudential.com
Subject: Re: 350 W31 forged pistons- is 2.5 thou too tight?

Chris,

I remember looking on to the clearance issue on my 350 when I was
rebuilding it with the L2320F30's (.030 over).  FWIW, I don't Federal
Mogul/Sealed Power makes a 2320 flat-top Olds 350 piston that's not forged.
F-M's Sterling subsidiary makes the dished piston (that many parts places
list as "flat-top with single valve relief" .... heh, that's one BIG valve
relief!) ... but that's a totally different part number (332AP and 332AP30,
I think).  So it's a safe bet that the 2320 they list the specs for is
their "Power Forged" piston.

Somewhere in their literature, I remember reading that their alloy they use
in the forged pistons doesn't expand as much as older alloys that were
used, hence the tighter clearance that can be run.  I couldn't find that on
the web anywhere, the closest I came was this piston fitting information
from Sealed Power:

http://www.federal-mogul.com/cda/content/front/0,2194,2442_2875_6695,00.html

Mentions "greater tensile strength and improved thermal expansion
characteristics." It also states that the coating on the forged pistons
measures .001" and it can affect your measurement ("Do not measure the
skirt and compensate for the increase in diameter due to the skirt coating
as this could result in excessive clearance and possible piston failure").

That said, the machine shop owner/operator and I decided to go with the F-M
literature, and he bored the block to their specifications just like you
did.  I've got about 10k miles on the engine with no problems so far ... so
IMO you'll be OK.

HTH,
Bob DeMuth
'72 88 conv
Some other stuff

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 12:38:09 -0600
From: "Ian Dixon" <IDixon@sbrc.ca>
Subject: Ground shipping

Polling the list for what has been discussed many times, but now I need
that info, I can't recall it.

Who is the best ground shipper to use for a bare engine block?  It
weighs about 200 lbs, and FEDEX ground has a 150lb limit.  Its coming
from the US to Canada.

TIA,
Ian Dixon
Winnipeg

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 12:28:51 -0600
From: SKammerer@alberto.com
Subject: Re: Ground shipping

Forward Air,  www.forwardair.com,  best price is for terminal to terminal
shipping, though I believe they do door to door.

Steve


Polling the list for what has been discussed many times, but now I need
that info, I can't recall it.

Who is the best ground shipper to use for a bare engine block?  It
weighs about 200 lbs, and FEDEX ground has a 150lb limit.  Its coming
from the US to Canada.

TIA,
Ian Dixon
Winnipeg

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:41:40 -0600
From: "Ian Dixon" <IDixon@sbrc.ca>
Subject: Thanks Chris W!

My sentiments, forwarded to the list - original message was sent to
Chris Witt.
_______________________________________________

I got your package with the roller lifters/"spider" retainer shipment
yesterday.  Expertly packaged, and I greatly appreciate the gift of the
used stuff for my mock-up.  You, sir, are a good guy to work with!

Thanks again,

Ian Dixon
Winnipeg

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #4755
*********************************
