
oldsmobile-digest     Wednesday, January 21 2004     Volume 01 : Number 4749



RE: question on a non-Olds motor....
Re: new MC Re: oh my God I hate brakes
Re: 81CS blues...
Re: 81CS blues...
Re: question on a non-Olds motor....
Limitations of Caddy/Olds EFI system   was - Re: 455 Fuel Injection?
Re: Seville Intake
Re: Seville Intake
Re: Seville Intake
Olds 425 Crank in an Olds 455 motor
Re: Seville Intake
Re: Seville Intake
Re: Olds 425 Crank in an Olds 455 motor
Re: Seville Intake
Installing Rear Seatbelts in a 1965 442? How to?
455 crate motor - F/S - 800 bucks
Re: Olds 425 Crank in an Olds 455 motor
RE: 455 crate motor - F/S - 800 bucks
Re: Seville Intake
Re: formaly  Seville Intake, 
Re: Seville Intake
Re: Olds 425 Crank in an Olds 455 motor
JUST the MC? Re: oh my God I hate brakes
Re: Olds 425 Crank in an Olds 455 motor
Re: Installing Rear Seatbelts in a 1965 442? How to?
Re: Limitations of Caddy/Olds EFI system   was - Re: 455 Fuel Injection?
Re: 455 crate motor - F/S - 800 bucks
Re: JUST the MC? Re: oh my God I hate brakes
Re: 455 crate motor - F/S - 800 bucks
Re: Olds Fuel Injection, was 455 FI....
Re: Olds Fuel Injection, was 455 FI....
69 Cutlass restoration progress
Re: Olds 425 Crank in an Olds 455 motor
Re: 455 crate motor - F/S - 800 bucks
350 rebuild progress

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 23:04:31 +0000
From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg_o@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: question on a non-Olds motor....

>I haven't even called about the car yet, simply because I'm fairly certain
>it's probably going to be vinyl seat and has a good chance of NOT being AC
>equipped (either never having it from the factory, or having it
>nonfunctional due to age), but I thought I'd try to get a little info
>first.....

Could this be an Iraqibu? (It's not a three-on-the-tree manual by any 
chance, is it?)

- -- Andy

_________________________________________________________________
Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up — fast & reliable Internet access with prime 
features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 18:01:04 -0500
From: "Fred Nissen" <fsnissen@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: new MC Re: oh my God I hate brakes

> Did the transition to low drag calipers also take place with the diesel
> hydro-boot system?

Yes.  The year of the change may vary by carline, but I would bet most if
not all car lines with hydro-boost  switched to the low drag calipers in
'81.  Hydro-boost is just a way to
power the brake booster off the power steering pump instead of engine
vacuum, which diesels do not have.

Regards,
Fred

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 18:10:06 -0500
From: "Dave Cullen" <david.cullen@snet.net>
Subject: Re: 81CS blues...

> OTOH, the locking TC won't work now - normal I gues, as there is no TPS
> conected to the ECU... how could I lie to the ECU to make it connect the
TC
> clutch over 45mph as before? I've read, that the TCC function is sort of
> stand alone one and will work alone, without the rest of sensors... could
be
> true?

AFAIK it's just the opposite - virtually any error code that makes the check
engine light come on will disable TCC lockup. And the TPS signal is
certainly one that the ECM uses for that.

Methinks you're screwed, except to manually engage it.

drc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 18:10:52 -0500
From: John Kelsey <ribspot@pop4.net>
Subject: Re: 81CS blues...

toggle switch
John Kelsey
Dayton Ohio

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 18:55:19 -0500
From: "Roc88ket" <roc88ket@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: question on a non-Olds motor....

I had a Monte Carlo with a 229 V6 that was a complete dog. The cam had to be
replaced around 80,000 miles. I would stay away from the engine. This car
was in the family and very well maintained since new.

I recall the cars of that era having a Chevy 305 (also with cam issues) as
the upgrade and not a 350 but I could be wrong.

John Sanders
'53 88
'01 Aurora 4.0


- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "King V" <king_v@mindless.com>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 12:08 PM
Subject: question on a non-Olds motor....


> All,
>
> Looking into getting, possibly, as a driver for now, a 1978 Malibu.
>
> Well, it says it's got a V6, says its very reliable, and the photo does
> show the car to look nice and straight, though I'll have to see it in
> person to be sure.
>
> I am familiar with the 231, but it's possible this car has an even smaller
> V6, a Chevy branded 200 CID v6.  Shares the same stroke as the SB chevy
> V8s, but with the two cylinders cut off, and the bore reduced to 3.50
inches.
>
> They only made this motor for 1978 and 1979.
>
> Does it have a particular reputation, good or bad?  Did they learn from
> what Buick learned shortly before, and made sure the crank wouldn't cause
> the trouble the odd-fire 231s had?
>
> And further, probably most importantly, is it a fairly trivial swap to get
> an el-cheapo C-brand 350 and bolt it right in?
>
> I haven't even called about the car yet, simply because I'm fairly certain
> it's probably going to be vinyl seat and has a good chance of NOT being AC
> equipped (either never having it from the factory, or having it
> nonfunctional due to age), but I thought I'd try to get a little info
> first.....
>
>
> Thanks in advance!  Stay tuned for potentially more questions on different
> non-Olds motors in the future!
>
>
> - Joe Vahabzadeh
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 18:01:48 -0700
From: "Schopen, Kenneth" <kenneth.schopen@medtronic.com>
Subject: Limitations of Caddy/Olds EFI system   was - Re: 455 Fuel Injection?

> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 10:24:20 -0600
> From: Kevin Wright <krwright@sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: 455 Fuel Injection?
> 

snip 

> I was considering using TBI just to get the thing going, then 
> switch to port injection when I had a manifold. That changed 
> when I found the Caddy/Olds EFI setup.

I read several posts a while back on ROP or Oldspower in which the Caddy/Olds EFI system was discussed. Apparently the system is lacking in several areas (I have not verified this information personally, I am just repeating what was posted):

Injectors - early design, not high flow rate, and different physical size from typical modern injectors, so interchangeability is an issue.

Fuel Rail - made for the factory injectors so it won't mate up with modern injectors.

ECM/Controller - Analog controller with severe limitations. This can be overcome by using an Accel, Mega Squirt, etc aftermarket controller, though.

Intake Manifold - small port design, so flow rate is not sufficient for a high performance application

I'll concede that some of these limitations can be overcome, but from what I remember the intake manifold itself was one of the major disappointments with the system. Assuming that this is the case, I wouldn't think that this system would be a viable platform for a performance buildup. 

Kevin, what are your thoughts on this? Sounds like you're researched it a bit.

Kenneth
1971 Cutlass Supreme convertible
Phoenix, AZ

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:07:59 +0000
From: 77w30442@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Seville Intake

i was once told the only dumb quistion is the one not asked
 so with that said
any one know whare i can find a women who understands men and there passion for cars?
lol
ron
 
> Hi,
> Sorry if this is a dumb question but I know someone on here knows the 
> answer. Will the FI intake off a 75-81 Seville fit a 455?
> 
> paulbunyan
> 
> Also if anyone has any questions bout Comfortron I can help you :-)
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:34:40 -0500
From: "ftfunnyfarm" <ftfunnyfarm@voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Seville Intake

I know of one woman...but I am wondering were I can find a man who
understands me and my passion for my car!!!

He hates it when I call it my car...lol....but it is....I had it the first
time around back in '78 and I sold MY car to buy this car back!!

Tami

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:47:07 +0000
From: 77w30442@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Seville Intake

i hear you, she hated it when she said me or the car and my replie was
car has higher trade in value, more reliable,fewer miles on it.
i thought it was funny.
just dont get it how  they get jelious of a hunk of iron.
oh well take care
ron
2-1977 cutlass supremes
  1972 cutlass convertable
  1987 442
  1994 chevy caprice
  1989 chevy k-2500
  1989 chevy z-24 
> I know of one woman...but I am wondering were I can find a man who
> understands me and my passion for my car!!!
> 
> He hates it when I call it my car...lol....but it is....I had it the first
> time around back in '78 and I sold MY car to buy this car back!!
> 
> Tami
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:02:53 -0600
From: Texas442 <Texas442@Texas442.com>
Subject: Olds 425 Crank in an Olds 455 motor

Everyone,
My apologies if this has been discussed before.  I will be converting an 
Olds 455 Automatic to a 455 4spd.  I don't want to use the cast iron crank 
that came out of the 455.  I have a Forges Steel Crank out of an Olds 425 
(casting # 384722) that I would like to use.  Here is what I like to know:

1. Can the 425 crank be used in a 455?
2. If so, do I use the 455 connecting rods or 425 rods?
3. I will have the crank drilled for the pilot bearing (per Steve Reed's 
drawing).  Are there any other modifications needed for the crank?
4. What about the rest of the motor?  Are there any other modifications I 
should consider before starting the engine rebuilt to accept the 425 Rod?
5. Are there any other parts I need to locate before I take the motor to 
the engine shop?

Thanks
Ali

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:56:42 -0500
From: "ftfunnyfarm" <ftfunnyfarm@voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Seville Intake

LOL....Ron...I hear ya....LOL I spend many hours with my baby during the
nice weather. Washing,polishing and going to car shows...will have to say
hubby does go with me....but I do all the work on her...well most of
it....LOL

Do you let her drive???? Maybe that would help...

Tami

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:55:16 -0800
From: Kevin & Casey Olund <kcolund@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Seville Intake

Maybe you'se guys otta hook up :o) 



> I know of one woman...but I am wondering were I can find a man who
> understands me and my passion for my car!!!
> 


> i was once told the only dumb quistion is the one not asked
>  so with that said
> any one know whare i can find a women who understands men and there passion for cars?
> lol
> ron
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 21:20:51 EST
From: Oldsfire1@aol.com
Subject: Re: Olds 425 Crank in an Olds 455 motor

- -------------------------------1074651650
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

As far as I know you can use the 425 crank in a 455 block but you must use 
425 rods and pistons.  455 pistons have the wristpin offset more.  I do not 
think you need any special mods to make it work, just remember you are going to 
end up with a 425 cu. in. engine.  
John A.  Oldsfire1@aol.com

- -------------------------------1074651650
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUTF-8 http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charse=
t=3Dutf-8">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2734.1600" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV><FONT color=3D#8000ff size=3D4>As far as I know you can use the 425 cra=
nk in a 455 block but you must use 425 rods and pistons.&nbsp; 455 pistons h=
ave the wristpin offset more.&nbsp; I do not think you need any special mods=
 to make it work, just remember you are going to end up with a 425 cu. in. e=
ngine.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#8000ff size=3D4>John A.&nbsp; <A href=3D"mailto:Oldsfire=
1@aol.com">Oldsfire1@aol.com</A></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- -------------------------------1074651650--

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 21:22:29 -0500
From: "ftfunnyfarm" <ftfunnyfarm@voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Seville Intake

well...mmmmmmmm....not sure if that would be the best of ideas...considering
we are both married....lol....and not to each other....LOL

Tami

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 18:28:30 -0800
From: "Albert Penello" <albert@albertpenello.com>
Subject: Installing Rear Seatbelts in a 1965 442? How to?

How would one go about installing rear seatbelts in a 1965 Cutlass 442? I
want to add them for safety and I assume it's not as easy as drilling at
tapping some holes.

Thanks!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 21:54:25 -0500
From: "Randy Geisel" <rocket455@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: 455 crate motor - F/S - 800 bucks

Here's one of the those opportunities that come few and far between.

Offering it to the list before it goes to Ebay later this week.

A few years ago I was offered a 455 crate motor from a local guy that had
just sold his Cutlass. I passed on the deal because of...well, no cash at
the time.

As luck would have it a friend of mine told me about a friend of his with
this 455 that he had installed in his Cutlass project and then sold the car.
Buyer didn't want the new motor, so he pulled it. It's been sitting in his
garage for the last 3 years and he wants to move it out.

What do you know.....it's the same guy with the same motor. Guess he doesn't
know too many Olds folks in the area. ;-)

Price is right and I had just sold my Super 88, so I bought the motor 2
weeks ago. Why Am I selling it instead of sticking it in my '72 Cutlass? I'm
in the process of buying an Auto Parts Store...need $$$ more than the motor
at this time.

Here's the low down on the motor.

Rebuilt 455 w/maybe a mile or two of run time
4bbl intake w/EGR
HEI distributor
Carb spacer
Chrome valve covers
New water pump
No accessories or starter
Crank pulley installed

It's a '73-'76 455 with J heads. The guy (Manny) bought it from Napa for his
Cutlass project. He installed it then sold the car soon thereafter. The
buyer had a motor he wanted to put in the car, so they worked out a deal
with Manny keeping the crate motor. It's been sitting in his garage and/or
shed (he's moved twice since pulling the motor) ever since.

I'm told the motor has maybe a mile or two on it. The car wasn't street
ready and it only went around the block and idled in the drive. I've pulled
the valve covers, timing cover and oilpan and everything looks new inside.
Oil looked brand new and it was full of fresh 100% (unmixed) antifreeze.

There's a stock EGR 4v intake on it that came from another motor. By the
looks of the runners, black soot, that motor was running rich. There's a
carb spacer installed.

The only thing I can see that this motor needs is a dipstick. This one is
broken off about an inch from the block.....something about the headers were
in the way. Easy enough to fix.....heck, I'll replace the blasted thing
before it leaves here. It has an HEI distributor and chrome valve covers.

It could use repainted from sitting around, but other than that, you should
be able to bolt it in...add your accessories and go.

There will be pics soon. http://home.att.net/~rocket455/455.htm

The Th350 that you'll see attached is not for sale.

If interested, drop me an e-mail privately at rocket455@worldnet.att.net

Motor is located in Honey Brook, PA  (about 1 hour west of Philly). I'll be
able to deliver within a few hours drive of here. Picking up an '87 Dodge
van parts hauler this week. That pretty much covers all of DE, NJ, most of
PA and as far south as DC.

I know it's a smog motor, but $800 is half of the $1,600 the motor cost.
Still a good deal in my mind.

Randy Geisel
Honey Brook, PA 19344
610-273-7085

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 22:21:06 -0500
From: "Randy Geisel" <rocket455@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Olds 425 Crank in an Olds 455 motor

> 1. Can the 425 crank be used in a 455?

The 425 crank will fit, but the stroke is different. The 425 has 3.975"
stroke while the 455 has 4.250" stroke.

By doing what you intend to do, you're making a 425 out of your 455 block.

Go to the FAQ and read up on the two motors. Pretty much everything you need
to know is there.

Randy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 22:35:19 -0500
From: "John Nasta" <email@johnnasta.com>
Subject: RE: 455 crate motor - F/S - 800 bucks

Hey Randy,

Buying an auto parts store? Congratulations (I think). Let me know if I can
help in any way. I'm sure you will need a decent little web site at the very
least.

John Nasta



- -----Original Message-----

Why Am I selling it instead of sticking it in my '72 Cutlass? I'm
in the process of buying an Auto Parts Store...need $$$ more than the motor
at this time.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 03:45:08 +0000
From: 77w30442@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Seville Intake

me married......... nope. a lot happier wth the car it dont ask a million questions
and don't throw a fit, but ocassonally gets the best of me, 
lol
ron
    
> well...mmmmmmmm....not sure if that would be the best of ideas...considering
> we are both married....lol....and not to each other....LOL
> 
> Tami
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 03:49:11 +0000
From: 77w30442@comcast.net
Subject: Re: formaly  Seville Intake, 

not looking for a girl single is just fine but got my eye on a  1969 442.
if the guy who ownes it would make up his mind. its in good shape, but the 400 is seized from a chevy oil filter being installed and driven even after the oil gauge read  0 psi.
been sitting since 1978
ron   
> 
> Maybe you'se guys otta hook up :o) 
> 
> 
> 
> > I know of one woman...but I am wondering were I can find a man who
> > understands me and my passion for my car!!!
> > 
> 
> 
> > i was once told the only dumb quistion is the one not asked
> >  so with that said
> > any one know whare i can find a women who understands men and there passion 
> for cars?
> > lol
> > ron
> > 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 03:55:07 +0000
From: 77w30442@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Seville Intake

 the only women who ever drove  any of my oldsmobiles is my x girlfriend luanne
my 77 cutlass supreme  back in 1985-1992. but she could handle the 468 nicely. even beat my 68 442 with a 468. we would cruise both cars and show them on the strip in virginia beach. my last girlfriend wanted a convertable so i bought the 1972, needless to say things did not work out but thought she was going to get the car. wow what a sense of humor she had.
my oldest son lives in iowa with my x from virginia he is getting the 1987 442 with a 1977 stock 350. 
he gets his drivers lic at 16. 
take care 
ron 
> LOL....Ron...I hear ya....LOL I spend many hours with my baby during the
> nice weather. Washing,polishing and going to car shows...will have to say
> hubby does go with me....but I do all the work on her...well most of
> it....LOL
> 
> Do you let her drive???? Maybe that would help...
> 
> Tami
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 21:07:40 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Olds 425 Crank in an Olds 455 motor

> 1. Can the 425 crank be used in a 455?


Yes.


> 2. If so, do I use the 455 connecting rods or 425 rods?


You have no choice but to use the 425 rods. The 455 rods are too short. You
will wind up with a 425 engine, with the shorter stroke 425 crank.
425 = 4" stroke
455 = 4 1/4" stroke
With a 0.060" overbore, you will have a 437.


> 3. I will have the crank drilled for the pilot bearing (per Steve Reed's
> drawing).  Are there any other modifications needed for the crank?


No. However, be sure to have the entire reciprocating assembly balanced.


> 4. What about the rest of the motor?  Are there any other modifications I
> should consider before starting the engine rebuilt to accept the 425 Rod?


The first 4 items are in mandatory order of work:
1) Align bore the crank mains.
2) Deck the block perpendicular to crank centerline.
3) Bore the block perpendicular to crank centerline.
4) Hone the block with a Sunnen Cylinder King Electronic Cylinder Honing
Machine, which will hone the bore perpendicular to crank centerline.
5) Rebuild the rods, polish out the forging flash on the side of the rod
beams, shotpeen the rods, and seriously consider installing bronze bushings
in the pin end for full-floating 0.927" diameter piston pins, which will
require custom forged pistons.


> 5. Are there any other parts I need to locate before I take the motor to
> the engine shop?


What are you going to use for pistons?
What type of piston rings are you going to use?
What cam do you want for this engine?
Will you use Clevitte 77 engine bearings?
Are you using a double roller timing chain?
What type of head work are you going to specify?
What are you using for an oil system, oil system modifications, oil pump,
oil windage tray, and oil pan?

What are your answers to these questions:
Stock rebuild or high performance?
Do you want a 200,000 mile capable engine?

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 21:36:02 -0600
From: Brian Ammons <b_ammons@mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: JUST the MC? Re: oh my God I hate brakes

I'm going to check on English/Metric flare connections @ the MC, but...is
the MC the ONLY thing I have to replace, i.e. can I leave the '77 booster
on there in combo with the '84 MC?

Thanks,

Brian

At 04:51 AM 01/19/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>> >So we got '77 rotors with '84 calipers (these were new 1.5 years ago,
>> >that's why I chose them over the calipers that were on there) on the
>front
>>, and obscenely bad pedal travel.  This
>> >from a car that was braking "ok" before I put it up on ramps for rear end
>> >swap a couple of months ago - what to make of this?
>>
>> Ooooh, oooh, I know this one! :)
>>
>> GM went to low-drag calipers in '80 or '81, which retracts the caliper
>> piston more than the older design. To compensate for the extra travel,
>they
>> went to a "quick take-up" master cylinder design, which pumped a lot of
>> fluid initially to take up that extra caliper travel.
>>
>> You either need to swap to the newer MC, or the older caliper design.
>
>-------------------
>
>Bob is 100% correct here.  The low drag calipers are not compatible with the
>'77 master cylinder.
>
>Regards,
>Fred
>

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----- 
Brian Ammons 	
b_ammons@mail.utexas.edu
reallywildstuff@yahoo.com
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 21:18:23 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Olds 425 Crank in an Olds 455 motor

> 455 pistons have the wristpin offset more.


There's no offset difference. The reason is a 425 rod is 7" long and a 455
rod is 6 3/4" long. If you used a 455 rod with a 425 crank, you definitely
need custom pistons with a compression height 1/4" taller than standard, to
make up for the 1/4" short rods. That would work, but you wind up placing an
excessive thrust vector on the sides of the cylinder walls during engine
operation. Also, with a taller compression height, the pistons will be
heavier, a condition you really, really do not want. Finally, the very
excellent rod length to stroke ratio of a 425, 1.75 to 1, would be severely
compromised by using a short 455 rod, which would make it 1.6875 to 1.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 21:26:29 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Installing Rear Seatbelts in a 1965 442? How to?

> How would one go about installing rear seatbelts in a 1965 Cutlass 442? I
> want to add them for safety and I assume it's not as easy as drilling at
> tapping some holes.


Actually, it's even easier than that. Pull the rear seat out and look at the
rear floor pan vary carefully. There should be a set of factory welded in
reinforced nuts in the floor pan for 3 sets of rear seat belts. Rear seat
belts were an option. As an example, our '65 F-85 4-door was factory
equipped with 3 pairs of rear seat belts, an order option.

If for some reason those bolt bosses aren't there, holes can be drilled
through the floor pan for the seat belt bolts. On the underside of the floor
pan, a 3" round steel washer, 1/8" thick, would be used for extra strength
backup. Use a 1/4" thick steel washer, if that would give you more
confidence. Use grade 8 bolts to mount the seat belts.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 23:36:27 -0500
From: "Chris Carson" <fastcarson@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Limitations of Caddy/Olds EFI system   was - Re: 455 Fuel Injection?

> I read several posts a while back on ROP or Oldspower in which the
Caddy/Olds EFI system was discussed. Apparently the system is lacking in
several areas (I have not verified this information personally, I am just
repeating what was posted):
>
> Injectors - early design, not high flow rate, and different physical size
from typical modern injectors, so interchangeability is an issue.
Replace the injectors for modern high-impedence injectors.

> Fuel Rail - made for the factory injectors so it won't mate up with modern
injectors.
Fuel rail can be "modified" to accept modern injectors - I think this
involves drilling them to a larger diameter, I will find out more when I
come in contact with the man who has already done the conversion.

> ECM/Controller - Analog controller with severe limitations. This can be
overcome by using an Accel, Mega Squirt, etc aftermarket controller, though.
Why not use a stock GM MPFI ECM from the 90's? The Accel has a brain of a
goldfish compared to one of these monsters.

> Intake Manifold - small port design, so flow rate is not sufficient for a
high performance application

Err...I think this is incorrect here. The PORTS are not what are small, but
the throttle body holes. What I think happened is that traditionalists took
one glance at this "2bbl" manifold and figured it would perform as well as a
car with a 2bbl. WRONG...you have to remember that is "2bbl" is only flowing
AIR through the throttle body. Anyway, this can be overcome as well, if you
really think it's important, by boring out the holes. Think about it,
anyway - why would they purposely cast a manifold that didn't match up with
the ports of the heads it was destined to mate to?

On a further note, the Cadillac EFI motor was one of the first to be able to
pass emissions standards for those years WITHOUT a catalytic converter,
however, they put one on anyway due to the bastardly nature of the EPA.
Chris

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 21:24:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Frank Fellman <frank.fellman@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: 455 crate motor - F/S - 800 bucks

- --0-428951235-1074662652=:54733
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Rando!!   Congrats, man!!   
 
Yeah, yeah-- it'll be a lot of work (and virtually 'slave' hours 
for a while), but what a rewarding feeling, I'm sure, to have 
yer own biz!
 
Do keep us posted, sir...  and best of luck from all of us.
 
                                Phantom455
==========================================

Randy Geisel <rocket455@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

<snippage>

...Why Am I selling it instead of sticking it in my '72 Cutlass? I'm
in the process of buying an Auto Parts Store...need $$$ more than the motor
at this time.


- --0-428951235-1074662652=:54733
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<DIV>Rando!!&nbsp;&nbsp; Congrats, man!!&nbsp;&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Yeah, yeah-- it'll be a lot of work (and virtually 'slave' hours </DIV>
<DIV>for a while), but what a rewarding feeling, I'm sure, to have </DIV>
<DIV>yer own biz!</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Do keep us posted, sir...&nbsp; and best of luck from all of us.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Phantom455</DIV>
<DIV>==========================================<BR><BR><B><I>Randy Geisel &lt;rocket455@worldnet.att.net&gt;</I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<P>&lt;snippage&gt;</P>
<P>...Why Am I selling it instead of sticking it in my '72 Cutlass? I'm<BR>in the process of buying an Auto Parts Store...need $$$ more than the motor<BR>at this time.<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
- --0-428951235-1074662652=:54733--

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 05:04:02 -0500
From: "Fred Nissen" <fsnissen@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: JUST the MC? Re: oh my God I hate brakes

> I'm going to check on English/Metric flare connections @ the MC, but...is
> the MC the ONLY thing I have to replace, i.e. can I leave the '77 booster
> on there in combo with the '84 MC?

The '77 booster should work fine with the '84 master cylinder.

Regards,
Fred

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 07:15:35 -0500
From: "Randy Geisel" <rocket455@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: 455 crate motor - F/S - 800 bucks

John, Frank, anyone who wants to listen (LOL)

> Buying an auto parts store?

Yep. Last June I was approached by the owner of the local independent
CarQuest store about managing his place and eventually taking it over when
he retired.

Well, I guess he liked the freedom of having me around and now wants to
retire by July when he turms 65.

When my printer business went under 2 years ago, I promised myself I'd be
back in biz somewhere somehow by the time I was 40. Well, I'm 40 on 3/2, so
I'm trying to get this deal done by the end of March/beginning of April if
possible.

You may have a little competition sometime down the road John. ;-) I plan on
adding performance parts and then resto parts within a year or two. First I
need to concentrate on building up the local garage business again. Although
it's a profitable biz, Tom (owner) has been running this as a 1 man show and
somewhat as a hobby the last few years, so he hasn't actively persued new
biz or keeping the old biz that seems to have gone elsewhere. And yes, I do
plan on having a website for internet sales.

YEp, I've been working my butt off making new contacts and getting things in
order. It's all worth it.....I can't stand working for someone else!!!!

Wish me luck!
Randy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 05:49:17 -0600
From: Kevin Wright <krwright@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Olds Fuel Injection, was 455 FI....

The controls lived on. They used the same controller, or similar, with 
different calibrations of course, on the Caddy 425 that replaced the 
Olds engines in Cads. All the Caddy 4100 were injected as well, whether 
TBI or port injection, but they used a digital system, rather than the 
analog setup that was on the Sevilles and other late '70s Cads. It 
really wasn't that great of a system. Fairly primitive, no learning 
capability, and pretty low performance.
The only thing lost was the design and fabrication time for the intake 
manifold and fuel rail, really, but I'm with you, why didn't they slap 
it on all those B-body wagons, or at least Toronados? I guess it's 
important to remember that EFI was still pretty expensive back then. 
Still, in quantity production...
Remember that GM is pretty famous for wasted opportunities. I'm sure 
that they convinced themselves that it made sense at the time.

krw

On Jan 20, 2004, at 5:05 PM, oldsmobile-digest wrote:

> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 21:22:38 -0500
> From: King V <king_v@mindless.com>
> Subject: Olds Fuel Injection, was 455 FI....
>
> You know, all this talk of fuel injection has me wondering....
>
> Now, when they had the Olds 350 FI for the Seville, I'm sure that 
> quite a
> bit of expense went into research and development, fabricating the
> machinery for producing the parts, etc.
>
> But once 1980 came and went, suddenly Olds smallblock FI was gone.
>
> I would have thought that they might have decided to continue to offer 
> such
> a setup, perhaps with further and further refinement, for the Olds 260 
> and
> 307 in the 1980s.
>
> You gotta figure, they were going through all sorts of hoops trying to 
> pass
> emissions and fuel economy standards, why not just use the system that
> already exists?  I'm sure improvments could've come about by tweaking
> things here and there, evolutionary steps.
>
> So why didn't they?  I mean, of the engines in the 300 cubic inch 
> range,
> the 307 produced the most bottom end torque.  Experience of some 
> listers
> indicates a better cam would've helped, but surely the multiport 
> injection
> could've helped boost power a bit as well as help make emissions 
> easier to
> pass.
>
> Seems like an opportunity they threw away.
>
>
> 	- Joe Vahabzadeh
On digest mode, so I'm a little slow...

Kevin Wright
Dallas/Ft. Worth, TX

krwright@sbcgloabl.net
http://www.wankel.net/~krwright
http://www.wankel.net/~krwright/cars/70Olds.html

'71 Cutlass S for sale, less engine and trans: 
http://www.wankel.net/~krwright/cars/71_cutlass.html

Snoopy: 1970 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Sports Coupe - It wants to be a W-31! 
And have EFI, 4-wheel discs, a 6-speed, a turbo or two... :)
...and a '71 Holiday Coupe less engine/transmission for sale - it'll be 
parts if someone doesn't buy it!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 07:40:50 -0500
From: "Fred Nissen" <fsnissen@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Olds Fuel Injection, was 455 FI....

> The controls lived on. They used the same controller, or similar, with
> different calibrations of course, on the Caddy 425 that replaced the
> Olds engines in Cads.

The Cadillac 425 was used in the big RWD cars '77-'79.  It did not replace
the EFI 350 Olds in the Seville.  The same basic EFI system that was used on
the Seville's 350 Olds was also optional on the 500 and 425 Cadillac engines
of the era.  Cadillac abandoned the port injection system starting in 1980,
going to a simpler TBI system with digital controls which continued to be
used through 1989 on some models.

Regards,
Fred

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 08:06:48 -0500
From: Tom Bejma <tomcb@prplastics.com>
Subject: 69 Cutlass restoration progress

Hi List,

I've updated my web page with the progress on my 69 Cutlass restoration.
The latest step was coating the fire wall and front frame rails with POR-15.
It turned out pretty well.

http://homepage.mac.com/tcbracing/PhotoAlbum4.html

As always, any comments or suggestions are always welcome.

Tom Bejma
Harrison Twp., MI
1969 Cutlass S Convertible [H/O Reproduction]
1987 BMW 325e [Man, the Germans sure know how to make a car handle]
2002 Oldsmobile Intrigue [the Luxury car]
2002 Saturn VUE [Family Hauler]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 09:35:14 -0500
From: SteveH <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: Olds 425 Crank in an Olds 455 motor

At Tuesday, 20 January 2004, you wrote:
>>5. Are there any other parts I need to locate before I 
>>take the motor to the engine shop?
>
>What are you going to use for pistons?
>What type of piston rings are you going to use?
>What cam do you want for this engine?
>Will you use Clevitte 77 engine bearings?
>Are you using a double roller timing chain?
>What type of head work are you going to specify?
>What are you using for an oil system, oil system modifications, 
oil pump,
>oil windage tray, and oil pan?
>
>What are your answers to these questions:
>Stock rebuild or high performance?
>Do you want a 200,000 mile capable engine?
>
>Milton Schick

In an attempt to collect the wisdom of Milton and others regarding 
big-block build-ups (with emphasis upon 425s), I began the following 
web page some time ago. It hasn't been updated for about a year and 
badly needs organization but perhaps it'll give some ideas and suggest 
who to talk to for more info:
http://members.dandy.net/~k0xp/Oldsmobile/425Hints/BBOBuildUps.htm

Suggestions for improvement are always gratefully received  :o)))))

SteveH



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 10:25:31 -0500
From: SteveH <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: 455 crate motor - F/S - 800 bucks

At Wednesday, 21 January 2004, you wrote:
>I'm trying to get this deal done by the end of March/beginning 
>of April if possible.

Dadnabbit, how could you not think of THIS connection, Rando: Keep 
that 455, clean it up a lot, then mount it in your new front winder 
fer a show-n-tell!!  I mean, when's the last time you ever saw an 
OLDS engine on display in a shop ANYWHERE, eh  ;o\  ;o\  ;o\

Or go ahead and sell the 455 and use an old scrapper from somewhere 
for yer display-engine.

You'll need a sign in yer winder, too: "Oldsmobile Spoken Here"  
:o))))))

SteveH



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 10:42:35 -0500
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: 350 rebuild progress

1/21/04

Not sure what all the machine shop billed for just yet, total was just under 
$850.

Got the cam bearings in OK despite not having correct pilot on hand for #5.
Cleaned crud blockage from oil gallery
Gun cleaning kit with several size wire brushes works GREAT, under $15 with 
many brushes.
Dismantles to fit in the engine tools kit box also. Get the shotgun kit- 
larger rods and adapter for larger threads used on the larger shotgun type 
brushes.

Simple fixing of proper thread stud into my other engine brushes will allow 
them to fit onto this kit too. [all this started because I lost the handle 
and extensions to the original engine brush kit].

Washed block and crank last nite, and oiled all the critical surfaces. 
Cleaned all the passages first, of course. Got it back on the engine stand.

Also got the air cleaner paint job finished and the top alternator bracket 
painted up. Had to have both propane heaters going just to take the edge off 
the biting cold.

The "Magic Orange" degreaser I bought mostly for the nifty spray bottle was 
FROZEN SOLID
:-(
Thawed out OK. Bottle seems OK.
Washing the crank, with purple cleaner and water, saw strange substance on 
the journals, what is that? Oh, ice. Crank was still at 20 degrees, the 
water quickly froze on it. Turned heater to blast on the crank while washing 
it. Much better. Then, air dried, blow out all passages, and oiled the 
journals.

Time to go, and tool shortage again, so gave up at about 10:30pm. Forgot to 
take tools for square drive plug WITH HOLE at rear of LH gallery, tool for 
driving freeze plugs home, etc.

Turns out, a broken Torx bit like T50 or so can be re-ground into a pretty 
fair 5/16" square drive tool for installation, if not removal, of that 
square drive oil gallery plug. I tracked down the MAC tool man to buy the 
real tool for the tougher removal process.

Off to the store today to buy that long needed left hand drill set for 
removal of broken xst bolts.

- -----------------------
Chris Witt
1303 W. Miller Rd.
Lansing MI 48911

RocketScience442@hotmail.com

Cell 517-449-0432 weekends or short weekday calls or leave message.
Home 517-882-9747 thru 10-11pm MI time most days

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------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #4749
*********************************
