
oldsmobile-digest      Friday, February 20 2004      Volume 01 : Number 4785



Re: Of Airbags and Crush Zones
Re: Starter problems, 93 fwd Pontiac and 64 Olds Super 88.
Poll on best method for car show judging
Re: SERIOUS vibration
RE: Question for seller -- ebay crank #2461084547
Looking for '67 442 owners in Indianapolis area
Re: Longevity of newer vs. Older
Re: Re: Longevity of newer vs. Older
What is a muscle car?  was: muscle cars handling
Re: 2 Grand Air Cleaner
Re:  455 Stuck Valve update
RE: ADMIN: Another Weather Outage
RE: ADMIN: Another Weather Outage
Re: Of Airbags and Crush Zones
Re: muscle cars handling
Re: SERIOUS vibration
Re: muscle cars handling
Re: 2 Grand Air Cleaner
Re: Of Airbags and Crush Zones
New Year One Sales Code
Re: SERIOUS vibration
RE: Of Airbags and Crush Zones
RE: Question for seller -- ebay crank #2461084547
Re: Re: Longevity of newer vs. Older
Re: Of Airbags and Crush Zones
Re: Starter problems, 93 fwd Pontiac and 64 Olds Super 88.
RE: Poll on best method for car show judging
RE: Longevity of newer vs. Older

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 21:49:55 -0600
From: "Paul Pate" <rocket455@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: Of Airbags and Crush Zones

<The average car buyer/owner/user would not put up
with those restraining belt systems for a split-second.>

<Would you want to crawl in and out of the window of your daily driver,
snake your way around all of the roll cage tubes, only have one seat, buckle
a 5pt safety harness, put on helmet, etc. just to run down to your local
supermarket?>

<The fact is, production vehicles are one huge compromise in just about
everything.>

Sooo... convenience wins over safety?  Maybe we need a little less
convenience.

<Front air bags are most useful in head on collisions.>

Well, 70 + 70 mph = 140mph. Wouldn't T-boning Jeff Gordon or smacking the
wall at 140+ create about the same forces?

Paul Pate

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 15:24:58 -0500
From: SteveH <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: Starter problems, 93 fwd Pontiac and 64 Olds Super 88.

At Thursday, 19 February 2004, you wrote:
>I also have a different but similar problem with my 64 Olds, >(394,
auto) that starter sometimes just spins without engaging, 
>sometimes up to 10 times before finally engaging, but it always 
disengages.

This one's easy; the FWD, I dunno bout. This one, the flywheel has 
bad or missing teeth. They may merely be misshapen and appear OK 
to the casual glance but if their front and back edges aren't sharp 
and the teeth aren't well defined, the starter won't engage properly.


The FWD... sounds like either bad flywheel or a missing spacer between 
starter and block, which allows the starter to be located such that 
the Bendix drive teeth are too close to the center of the flywheel 
and jam, not disengaging.

SteveH



===================================================================
EASY access to your email http://webmail.dandy.net/mr2/nph-mr.cgi
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:29:34 -0500
From: Michael McDonald <McDonald_M@72ho.com>
Subject: Poll on best method for car show judging

Hello list,

I am part of a committee that helps the small town were I live, put on a summer 
car show each year.  The car show is part of a "Town and Country Days" weekend 
celebration.  I would like to know what method of car judging works best for 
a "fun" car show that is open to "any" type of vehicle, truck, car, race car, 
50's 60's, etc.  Between 70 to 125 vehicles will register. 
 
The methods to choose from include: participant judging, spectator judging, 
trophy sponsor judging, the cars that collect the most "money donations" (with 
the money going to a charity), committee selected "experts", etc.

One of the problems with a "local" show like this, is that many times a "local" 
car wins because of the owner's friends doing most of the voting. We want to 
attract cars from nearby towns and the city. 
 
Any cool new ideas or what method will be "fair and easy"? 
 
Best wishes,  
Mike McDonald
McDonald_M@72ho.com

1972 Hurst/Olds sunroof coupe
    "as seen on Speed TV"
   The American Musclecar    
            or
        www.72ho.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 20:48:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Stephen Amadei <amadei@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: SERIOUS vibration

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 Tremendous442@aol.com wrote:

> The thing is, he said as soon as he hit the BRAKES the car started shaking.
> Not the wheels, not the driveshaft. Rotors are warped, I am sure or this. If it
> has drum brakes, the drums are out of round. See my previous reply.

This also made me think... now this is _way_ out in left field, but when
you hit the brakes, the rear rises and the relationship between the tranny
and rear end changes.  I know some 4x4s have problems with driveshafts
that are marginally too short... when something like this happens, they
wobble because IIRC, some have two piece driveshafts that telescope... but
they only can do much.  With a one piece driveshaft, could it pull out of
the tranny just enough to cause a wobble (and bad vibration).

Like I say, I'm just supposing, so take it with a grain of salt.

How long did it vibrate badly?  Just for a moment or did it do it for a
few seconds?

					----Steve
Stephen Amadei
Dandy.NET!  CTO
Atlantic City, NJ

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:40:34 -0500
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Question for seller -- ebay crank #2461084547

Is this crankshaft been laying on its side for long???
- --------------------
Oh, er God's sake, not THAT old wives' tale again!

It does not matter.

Usually they stand on end, to save floor space
Sometimes they hang from the rear face
Sometimes they lie on the side on a wooden shelf.

It just does not matter.

Anyone who thinks that orientation of a piece as massive as a crankshaft 
during storage is crucial...  does not understand the mechanics of materials 
and how such items are affected by forces- such as their own weight, which 
is _so_ negligible compared to the many 1000's of times larger forces 
experienced during use.

Short answer:
No, not very long, in the Grand Scheme of Things.

- -----------------------
Chris Witt
1303 W. Miller Rd.
Lansing MI 48911

RocketScience442@hotmail.com

Cell 517-449-0432 weekends or short weekday calls or leave message.
Home 517-882-9747 thru 10-11pm MI time most days

_________________________________________________________________
Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free! 
http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200365ave/direct/01/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 17:25:26 -0600
From: OLDSmobility <oldsmobility@cableone.net>
Subject: Looking for '67 442 owners in Indianapolis area

I got this e-mail today, thought I'd post it here in case anyone can 
help out:
=====================================================================

Hello there. I found your site online and am wondering if you can help 
me with a strange request. I am trying to find someone in or near 
Indianapolis, Indiana, who owns a '67 Cutlass 442 and who would be 
willing to allow a bride and groom to be photographed in it. (I'd be 
glad to pay the owner for letting us use the car!!) We are getting 
married July 31, and I'd like to surprise my fiance by getting some of 
our wedding photos taken in a 442. He was the proud owner of one once, 
and he LOVED that car.

Can you help? Thanks very much.

Amber
akleopfe@iupui.edu
=====================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 20:44:33 -0500
From: Don Sowers <dstaxpro@infionline.net>
Subject: Re: Longevity of newer vs. Older

Andrew C. Green wrote:

>> in fact most ABS cars take longer to stop.
>
>
> Er, longer than what? A car that's sliding? Are you sure?

I will have to vote for the non ABS one here on my 99 Silverado 
partsmobile.  Had the misfortune a few years back to have to try and 
stop said vehicle in a space that was about 6' shorter than I could stop 
it.  Swerved and got into the other lane as opposed to going over an 8' 
or so drop off on the passenger side with my broinlaw sitting there.  
Subsequently had said ABS start acting up and disconnected it for "the 
time being".  Well, that time is still being, and I can stop it now in a 
shorter distance from 60 mph than I could with the ABS working 
(coincidentally about the same 6' or so).  So yes, in this particular 
case I DO feel like the ABS is a handicap more than an assist.  Before 
anyone gets their shorts in a bunch about the foregoing statement, 
please remember your results will vary with your ability to judge the 
lockup point on the stop pedal.  I know that in my wife's '03 Taurus the 
ABS feels really crazy with the way it works when it is used.  Anytime I 
get  a new vehicle, I always try and take it to a rain or snow slickened 
empty parking lot to "test drive" the brakes, etc so I have a good idea 
what to expect just in case.....  FWIW, I can stop the Mobile Office (my 
well worn 89 Town Car) in a shorter distance without ABS than I can the 
truck in either instance......   I also took my daughters to the same 
kind of parking lot when I was teaching them how to drive so they could 
at least experience the feeling of brakes, acceleration, etc with their 
cars in less than optimum conditions.....  Hopefully it is paying off in 
their safety instead of overconfidence and faster speeds and more 
chances.......

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 19:31:16 +0000
From: 77w30442@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Re: Longevity of newer vs. Older

as to the statement about seat belts and only surviveing when thrown from the car is b/s
when my 69 hurst olds rolled it  hit on left fende first wich caused car to turn up side down as it went to impact rear bumber first it tossed me and my frind to the rear of car when it hit  on the roof it pushed the drivers seat threw the floor pan. so please tell me how in god's eart the stupid seat belt would of saved my life. i got 5 stiches and a totally destroyed car. i was not speeding just the result of to factors 1 being jack ass who worked on front suspension while i was on a med cruise while in the navy. and 2nd the cheap feninton aluminum slots breakeing,causing car to hit iragation ditch. while sailing in the air it was peaceful and serine but after first impact it was a loud blurr. the rear part of roof did not get crushed but kept us safe . try that with todays junk they call a car.
seat belts only work in ideal situations, granted most cars never leave the ground but thats not ideal situation is it
ron  
> >>   People are using anecdotes and 'my
> >>brother-in-law's buddy and an accident where....' -
> >>This reminds me of my dear old dad telling me he would
> >>rather be thrown from the car in an accident and that
> >>heavy cards handle best because they 'hold the road'.
> >
> >Well, back then, it was true, sort of. Think about the seat
> >belts in the early cars, metal dashes with pointy bits all
> >over, not-so-safe 'safety glass'...
> [...]
> >But that was then. Things have changed.
> 
> Except for the things that _never_ change. For example, people were 
> something like 200 times more likely to be injured when thrown out, and 
> still are: every now and then I read about some nitwit getting ejected from 
> his SUV and then squished by it, just like they got squished by their 
> Packard or whatever in the old days. The point is that if you're flung out 
> during an accident, it's most likely a rollover, you're going out a side 
> window since you don't have a belt on, and the rolling vehicle is rolling in 
> the same direction that you're thrown. Therefore you come out the window, 
> then the car rolls over you.
> 
> Quoting Chuck Hurley of the National Safety Council in USA Today when 
> speaking about common myths of auto safety:
> http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/spotlight/2001-05-21-brolin-seat-belt.htm
> 
> >The only surviving member of a car crash who wasn't wearing a seatbelt
> >is thrown clear of the wreckage. "Actually, that has some statistical
> >value," says Hurley. "About one in 200 people wearing a seat belt would
> >have survived if they were thrown free, which makes the odds 200-to-one."
> 
> Also, the Michigan State Police, who have no doubt cleaned up way more 
> accidents than you'd like to think about, discuss this on their website at 
> http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1593_3504_22774-13689--,00.html
> 
> >MYTH: I'd rather be thrown clear in a crash.
> >
> >FACT: Being thrown safely clear in a crash is almost impossible. When
> >you're thrown, you may be thrown through the windshield, scraped along
> >the pavement, or even crushed by your own vehicle or another one. The
> >idea of being thrown from a car and gently landing in a grassy area
> >beside the road is pure fantasy. Your best bet in a crash is to stay
> >inside the vehicle, securely held by your safety belt.
> 
> Frankly there wasn't a whole lot wrong with the old seat belts except that 
> people wouldn't wear them. Granted that lap-only belts are not as effective 
> as 3-point belts with a shoulder harness, which in turn are not as effective 
> as 5-point, etc., but even a lap belt is better than none at all, in the 
> sense that it will hold you in place during a rollover and keep you from the 
> windshield in a head-on.
> 
> I had personal experience with the fixed 3-point belts of my old '72 LeMans 
> (i.e. snugged up manually, no inertia reels or window-shade retractors) in a 
> nasty crash some years back, and the factory belts performed perfectly.
> 
> -- Andy
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Click, drag and drop. My MSN is the simple way to design your homepage. 
> http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200364ave/direct/01/
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:20:42 -0700
From: Cliff Simpson <csimpson@ucalgary.ca>
Subject: What is a muscle car?  was: muscle cars handling

Matt Crumley wrote:

> ... I don't consider the Camaro or Trans Am a muscle car.

Matt brings up a good point, what is a muscle car?

GM-Muscle.com says:
    A muscle car, by the strictest definition, is an intermediate sized, 
performance oriented model, powered by a large V8 engine, at an 
affordable price.

The Camaro, T/A, and Mustang all fail the "intermediate sized" portion 
of this definition as they were considered small when they were first 
released.

Musclecarclub says:
    ... the actual definition of a muscle car, or which models were 
muscle cars, is a topic that is often disputed. Here is the general 
interpretation of what is a muscle car and what cars qualify, and which 
don't: 
http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/general/musclecars-definition.shtml

Their list is more inclusive and includes the Pony cars as long as they 
have large motors or higher performance small block motors.  Therefore 
the Mustang GTs, Mach 1's and Boss, Camaro SS and Z28, and T/A with 400 
c.i. or larger engines are considered Muscle cars.

They consider a 442 a musclecar but not a Cutlass despite the fact that 
a 70's Cutlass could be ordered with a larger engine than the late 60's 
442.  The Chevelle SS is a muscle car while a Malibu 350 (my other car) 
is not.

What at first seems capricious upon reflection does make sense.

The prototypical musclecar was the GTO and it still embodies the strict 
definition of a factory musclecar.  Basically an intermediate model with 
a big-a$$ed engine dropped in _and_ some badging.  The badging or 
separate model distinction is important.

In the Oldsmobile line the Cutlass would have been the "regular" model 
while the 442 was the muscle car because of the big engine _and_ badging.

A F-85 with a 455 would not, therefore, be a factory musclecar but 
rather a sleeper.

Opinions and flames welcome.
- -- 

Factory musclecars, musclecars, pony cars, sleepers, I love them all.
http://www.ucalgary.ca/~csimpson/TheOldsZone.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:33:29 -0500
From: "ron fama" <77w30442@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: 2 Grand Air Cleaner

  thats nuts, must be nice to have 2 grand for a air cleaner
  ron
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
  To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
  Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 1:14 PM
  Subject: Re: 2 Grand Air Cleaner


  > Insane!
  > 
  > Milton Schick
  > 1964 442 Cutlass
  > imp@theriver.com
  > 
  > 
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: "Mike Stilwell" <Fleetsuper@msn.com>
  > To: "Oldsmobile" <Oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
  > Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 7:42 AM
  > Subject: 2 Grand Air Cleaner
  > 
  > 
  > > Hi folks:
  > >
  > > I've be super busy lately with regular life stuff and haven't had much
  > time
  > > to keep up with the list.  I trust all is well in Olds land.
  > >
  > > I wanted to share with you an eBay auction I ran across while looking for
  > > parts for my 442. I'm trying to finish up some work that I've put off for
  > > awhile now. Hopefully I can get the interior work done before the spring
  > > show season.
  > >
  > > Now I thought Olds guys went nuts over certain parts, but check out this
  > > auction for a rare (I assume by the price, can't ever be sure?) air
  > cleaner
  > > for a 65 Chevy. Might have to cut and paste the whole link to open it in
  > > your browser.
  > >
  > >
  > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=43946&item=2458770580
  > > &ssPageName=STRK:MEBWA:IT
  > >
  > > I think paying nearly $2G's for an air cleaner is nuts.  And that's coming
  > > from a guy that firmly believes in buying what you like for whatever you
  > > want as long as it makes you happy.
  > >
  > > Enjoy,
  > > Mike Stilwell  OCA #13273
  > > President - Capitol City Rockets
  > > http://www.bigmikes442.com
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 20:29:07 -0600
From: "Tom Jones" <tom.bearsfan@verizon.net>
Subject: Re:  455 Stuck Valve update

For those of you following the saga of my stuck exhaust valve...
The head had evidence of galling on the number 2 exhaust valve guide which
is where it must have hung open then the piston hit it.  The builder said he
also noticed the exhaust guides call for a slightly larger ream size than
the intake guides.  Can any of you confirm this or is this a function of the
guides and the valves?  He is going to measure all the guides on that head
thinking maybe they used the intake sized reamer on all the valves....which
if true he'll  need the other head to check it as well.

Tom J.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 17:48:48 +0000
From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg_o@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: ADMIN: Another Weather Outage

>As for me, I've been able to clear out my back door and driveway, although
>there isn't much place to go. My front door is buried under a snowdrift
>and I can't open it or even get to it from outside. Once the snowplows
>start making their way around I'll be digging my driveway out again, and
>the weather is calling for another storm on Sunday. Lucky us. ;-)

Y'know, we 'murricans down here use snowblowers for that kind of thing, and 
we don't get anywhere near as much as snow as you do...  :-)

- -- Andy

_________________________________________________________________
Dream of owning a home? Find out how in the First-time Home Buying Guide. 
http://special.msn.com/home/firsthome.armx

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 17:26:19 -0400 (AST)
From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Subject: RE: ADMIN: Another Weather Outage

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, Andrew C. Green wrote:
> Y'know, we 'murricans down here use snowblowers for that kind of thing, and 
> we don't get anywhere near as much as snow as you do...  :-)

Snowblowers aren't real effective on steps, much less on the 6-foot high
pile of snow the plow dumped at the end of my driveway.  :-(

Greg Beaulieu    ab348@chebucto.ns.ca    Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada
          Olds List Admin Info: http://oldslist.oldsgmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 04:07:20 +0000
From: 77w30442@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Of Airbags and Crush Zones

tell that to the owner of the 2002 bmw  that had his side air bag deployed when he hit a pot hole. bmw is sitting in salvage yard car was totaled after it hit gaurd rail after startling driver.
yes sir technoligy is great
ron 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 19:19:19 +0000
From: 77w30442@comcast.net
Subject: Re: muscle cars handling

i totaly agree with you on that one milt
ron
> Matt,
> 
> > Also I don't consider the Camaro or Trans
> > Am a muscle car.
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, but anyone who lived in that time period will disagree. Big
> engined Camaroes, Firebirds, MOPAR Darts and 'Cudas, Ford Mustang GT 350s
> and 500s, and Mercury Cougars were very definitely muscle cars, in every
> sense of the word!
> 
> Finally, don't let anyone who owned a Yenko L-88 427 Camaro or worked at
> Yenko ever hear you say that. Very interesting and potentially unpleasant
> things might happen.
> 
> Milton Schick
> 1964 442 Cutlass
> imp@theriver.com
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 20:14:54 -0500
From: King V <king_v@mindless.com>
Subject: Re: SERIOUS vibration

At 08:48 PM 02/18/2004 EST, Jon wrote:
>I hit the brakes as hard as I could plant my foot in them,
>and the whole car started shaking REALLY bad. I felt like I was in a paint
>mixer or something. Even the guy with me said he had never been in a car
>that shook that bad. That's the first time I have stomped on the brakes at
>that speed. Can out-of-round wheels shake that bad under these conditions?

Taking a look at the driveshaft might not hurt, but I'm wondering if the
brake drums are severely out of round?  Happened with me on an old Chrylser
Newport once . . I applied the brakes, and the rear drums were so badly
warped that not only did the car shake, it actually made an incredibly loud
banging noise.

I don't know if you've got discs or not in the front, but make sure your
front discs/drums are also in good shape.


	- Joe Vahabzadeh

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 04:17:34 +0000
From: 77w30442@comcast.net
Subject: Re: muscle cars handling

have you heard of the factory fe2 suspension option
a bodies were also used as police cars wich mandated a stiffer better handling suspension direct from general motors.
a nas car that cant  handle. seems to me at 100 plus mph they held the track
if i understand youre definition of a muscle car  correctly  it would not a steering wheel just point it and hit the gas.
look back at old road test and track test that all new cars recieve.
iwould gladly put my 1977 cutlass with stock  fe2 suspension against  the so called muscle cars of today. it holds the road nicely
 the f body is a muscle car. but by youre standards again nothing produced today could be considered a muscle car, all unibody. to keep up with the import junk. i will take my older cars no abs no air bags,and know it destroy just about anything that hits it. 
ron   
> 
> List,
> I've seen pictures of A-bodies in NASCAR back in the
> day.  But from the factory 60's and 70's muscle cars
> can not handle or brake like some of today's similarly
> sized cars.  Also I don't consider the Camaro or Trans
> Am a muscle car.  They are subframed pony cars. 
> Lighter weight cars designed by GM to handle well. 
> Just because it was built in the muscle car heyday
> doesn't make it a muscle car.
> A-bodies can be made to handle and brake very well
> from the aftermarket.  The F41 package from GM is a
> nice package but braking distance, slamom mph and g's
> on a skid pad would be interesting to compare to
> modern cars.  
> 
> Matt
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
> http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 18:59:02 +0000
From: 62oldsfan@comcast.net
Subject: Re: 2 Grand Air Cleaner

> I think paying nearly $2G's for an air cleaner is nuts.

That's more surprizing than the $1000 NOS '58 Edsel tail lights that sold last week.

Paul

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 11:34:12 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Of Airbags and Crush Zones

> Well, 70 + 70 mph = 140mph. Wouldn't T-boning Jeff Gordon or smacking the
> wall at 140+ create about the same forces?


Yes, it does. KE = 1/2 (m x Vsquared). V = total impact velocity. The total
impact velocity is the sum of all velocity vectors into the point of impact.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 17:48:52 -0500
From: "Jay Britt" <jbritt67@mindspring.com>
Subject: New Year One Sales Code

Received today.... Code SP4B.... 10% Off....Expires Wednesday March 3, 2004


Jay Britt
OCA#29460
67 Cutlass Supreme Holiday Coupe
99 Dodge Ram 1500 Quad Cab
http://jbritt67.home.mindspring.com
 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 14:08:13 EST
From: Jon442@aol.com
Subject: Re: SERIOUS vibration

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In a message dated 2/20/2004 12:06:54 PM Central Standard Time, 
amadei@dandy.net writes:
How long did it vibrate badly?  Just for a moment or did it do it for a
few seconds?
It shook violently for about seconds. I really don't think it's in the 
brakes. Although stomping on the brakes made it much, much worse, it shakes a little 
bit all the time at highway speeds. It's fine around town. I'm wondering if 
maybe the driveshaft is out of balance, or the pinion angle is off?

Jon

Jon Wessel
www.diecastsonline.com

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<DIV>In a message dated 2/20/2004 12:06:54 PM Central Standard Time, amadei@=
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<DIV>It shook violently for about seconds. I really don't think it's in the=20=
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<DIV><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" PTSIZE=3D"10"=
>Jon Wessel<BR>www.diecastsonline.com</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 14:10:27 -0500
From: Tom Bejma <tomcb@prplastics.com>
Subject: RE: Of Airbags and Crush Zones

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Pate [mailto:rocket455@swbell.net]
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 10:50 PM
> To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
> Subject: Re: Of Airbags and Crush Zones
> 
[SNIP]
> 
> <Front air bags are most useful in head on collisions.>
> 
> Well, 70 + 70 mph = 140mph. Wouldn't T-boning Jeff Gordon or 
> smacking the wall at 140+ create about the same forces?

Real reason air bags are not in NASCAR or any kind of racing
is that during a racing accident, the car needs to withstand
MULTIPLE impacts (did you see how many times Michael Waltrip's
car was hit during the "big one" at Daytona this year - he
hit the wall, he hit Robby Gordon, he hit the ground over and
over again while rolling).  This is why anyone doing any kind
of on track, multiple car racing has to have a Snell SA rated
helmet (SA = Special Application - meaning able to withstand
multiple impacts).

Airbags are only good for one hit and then they are done.
They also have a very large open seam in the back that causes
them to deflate almost instantly after inflating (An Airbag
Sensor Engineer I know explained it best - it's a controlled
explosion).  After the first collision with the wall - the air
bag would be just a limp potato sack, unable to protect
against any further impacts.

Also, the airbag is part of a system.  It does a very poor job
of protecting you without the assistance of the shoulder belt.
It's basic job is to keep your melon from contacting something
hard like the steering wheel (or a-pillar/b-pillar/door in the
case of side airbags).  Between the 3" wide 5-point harness,
SA rated helmet and the H.A.N.S. device that racers wear, they
have very little chance of their head contacting something hard.

If everyone wore a helmet and had a 5-point harness in their
passenger car, there would be no need for airbags.  But then
again, we'd all need a spotter in order to pass.

Tom Bejma
Harrison Twp., MI
69 Cutlass Convertible (no air bag - 3" Simpson lap belt)

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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 14:49:36 -0500
From: "Dave Wyatt" <wyattolds@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Question for seller -- ebay crank #2461084547

If laying one on it's side will hurt it, just imagine the pretzel you 'll 
end up with once you hit the key???

Thanks for the laugh Chris!


Dave Wyatt
70  4-4-2
67 Vista Cruiser

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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 14:58:10 -0500
From: "Dave Wyatt" <wyattolds@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Longevity of newer vs. Older

I knew a guy who was thrown from the wreckage when he didn't wear his belt 
and everyone else in the car (65 GTO) did.  They survived the roll over as 
did he, but he bled to death out in the field when he was not found after 
the crash.

Another high school buddy rolled his 69 H/O and ended up under the left 
front fender with the car on top of him.  Luckily he and the car landed on 
pile of mortar sand and was not crushed.  He survived and wears his belts 
now.

Yeah I know there are times and instances that a belt may get in the way, 
but more often than not, thay are life savers.


Dave Wyatt
70  4-4-2
67 Vista Cruiser

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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:34:30 -0700
From: Cliff Simpson <csimpson@ucalgary.ca>
Subject: Re: Of Airbags and Crush Zones

Paul Pate wrote:
> ...
> <Front air bags are most useful in head on collisions.>
> 
> Well, 70 + 70 mph = 140mph. Wouldn't T-boning Jeff Gordon or smacking the
> wall at 140+ create about the same forces?

Except after you T-bone Jeff Gordon you will still be traveling at 70 
mph and having your face stuck in a pillow could affect your driving :)

Some of the obvious ways that race cars differ from passenger cars:

    1) Race cars have very good primary restraint systems so they have 
less use for Supplemental Restraints System (SRS), a.k.a. air bags.

    2) Race cars are often involved in collisions that would set off a 
passenger car's air bags but are still moving and require the driver to 
be able to continue exerting control.

    3) Race car accidents are more likely to be multiple collision 
accidents.  Air bags are only useful for the first collision.

    etc.

I don't have a lot of respect for race car accidents <ducking>.  Sure 
they are at high speed but ... well when was the last time you saw a 
$23,000 race car hitting a vehicle that outweighed it by a factor of 10 
and then have to wait 1/2 an hour for EMT to arrive?

Announcer 1: "Now they are passing turn #2 where Smith's #47 car is 
still on fire, no sign of the driver moving yet."
Announcer 2: "Oh, look at that, his son has gotten out of the car and is 
wandering around the track."
Announcer 1: "It's been 20 minutes so I expect the fire trucks and maybe 
an ambulance will show up soon."
Announcer 2: "Better make that two ambulances."
- --

You know that material they make the little black boxes out of, you know 
the boxes that survive the crash and have all the info in them.  Why 
don't they make the whole plane out of that stuff?

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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 17:49:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Bill Hutchison <rkt88403@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Starter problems, 93 fwd Pontiac and 64 Olds Super 88.

 Hi John, Welcome to the list.
  I had a similar occurance with my '95 GMC last
sunday and monday.
 Sunday morning. Go to start the truck in the morning.
Clunk,but starter don't turn. Loose battery cables?
Snug them up. Try again. Not even a clunk? Get the big
channel locks grab snout on power steering pulley turn
motor. Click. Hmmm. Hit key again. Clunk. but didn't
turn the motor. Turn motor manually. Click. Go get the
charger,put it on boost. Hit the key.
CLUNK....RRRRR..Starts! Starts several times the rest
of the day with no problem.
 Monday morning. Clunk. Here go again. Turn motor
manually click. Grab charger. Boost. CLUNK. Hold key
on start. Something smells hot. But my
toes,fingers,and nose are so cold they hurt. Go in the
house,call in at work,won't be in,starter is fried.  
BTW my Olds does the same thing,but snugging battery
cables works for it,and she fires right up. But she is
trapped between truck and garage.
 Turn on TV. Current temp is -11 degrees. Go jump back
in the warm waterbed. Get up at noon. Temp in the
teens. Take off starter. Find the receipt. Lifetime
warranty Advance Auto. $132. Thank You. 6-22-02.
 Trade old for new. No $ charge. Put it in. All has
been good since.
 Check all connections from battery to the starter
first. Yeah I know,been there several times myself,and
what I thought was tight wasn't always tight enough.
 Ever notice the warning that comes with a new/rebuilt
starter: Make sure your battery has a full charge,or
it may result in a condition called starter death.
 Getting 12v to something don't mean nothing if there
are not enough amps to do the job.
 Good Luck.
 


=====
Bill Hutchison,Lansing,MI.
95 GMC Sierra 1500,95 Prowler 27N travel trailer
81 W-88 Cpe 403/TH350/8.5-3.23 LS
My Olds Club http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/olds889877to85

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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 14:46:45 -0500
From: "Dave Wyatt" <wyattolds@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Poll on best method for car show judging

The wife and I used to put on a small show during our towns annual festival. 
  We stayed strictly with participant judging.  We had tried a Spectators 
Choice award based on spectator votes, but it did not work out due to 
obvious ballot stuffing.  We did not have the manpower to judge the show 
ourselves either.  I had been involved in that with a car club that judged 
their show and while it worked OK, there were some participants who could 
not understand whay there cluncker did not win.  The simplest for us and all 
involved was participant judging.

One thing you will need to do with participant judging is go out and verify 
the winners are in the correct class and make adjustments before you hand 
out any awards.  Stock model T's should not win Street Machine 1980 to 
Present.  Some folks just can't seem to vote on the cars in the actual 
class.

I also ended up classing the vehicles as they arrived due to similar 
problems.  Some folks did not have a clue where there car fit in the 
classes.  A 55 Chevy is NOT a street rod and neither is a restored Model A.

We finally turned the show over to someone else and have seen many problems 
when they did not take our advise and use our format.  Keep it simple and do 
not be afraid to stick by any decision you may have to make.  Some folks 
forget they are there to have a good time and get all starry eyed over a $15 
trophy.



Dave Wyatt
70  4-4-2
67 Vista Cruiser





>From: Michael McDonald <McDonald_M@72ho.com>
>Reply-To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
>To: OLDS List <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
>Subject: Poll on best method for car show judging
>Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:29:34 -0500
>
>Hello list,
>
>I am part of a committee that helps the small town were I live, put on a 
>summer
>car show each year.  The car show is part of a "Town and Country Days" 
>weekend
>celebration.  I would like to know what method of car judging works best 
>for
>a "fun" car show that is open to "any" type of vehicle, truck, car, race 
>car,
>50's 60's, etc.  Between 70 to 125 vehicles will register.
>
>The methods to choose from include: participant judging, spectator judging,
>trophy sponsor judging, the cars that collect the most "money donations" 
>(with
>the money going to a charity), committee selected "experts", etc.
>
>One of the problems with a "local" show like this, is that many times a 
>"local"
>car wins because of the owner's friends doing most of the voting. We want 
>to
>attract cars from nearby towns and the city.
>
>Any cool new ideas or what method will be "fair and easy"?
>
>Best wishes,
>Mike McDonald
>McDonald_M@72ho.com
>
>1972 Hurst/Olds sunroof coupe
>     "as seen on Speed TV"
>    The American Musclecar
>             or
>         www.72ho.com

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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:28:19 -0600
From: "Ian Dixon" <IDixon@sbrc.ca>
Subject: RE: Longevity of newer vs. Older

Andrew C. Green wrote:
>> in fact most ABS cars take longer to stop.
> Er, longer than what? A car that's sliding? Are you sure?


Don Sowers added:
> So yes, in this particular 
case I DO feel like the ABS is a handicap more than an assist.  Before 
anyone gets their shorts in a bunch about the foregoing statement, 
please remember your results will vary with your ability to judge the 
lockup point on the stop pedal.  I know that in my wife's '03 Taurus the

ABS feels really crazy with the way it works when it is used. <


I also am not a fan of some ABS systems.  On glare ice (up here in the
great white N. we see that from time to time :)), my father's Nissan
Pathfinder system is BAD - the damned thing takes forever to stop.  In
the months with the white stuff on the ground (Nov - March) we
disconnect that sucker.  This year we have about 1.3 metres of snow -
it's a bear to drive in even with an optimal ABS system.  The system in
my '96 B-body 9c1 is better, it stays functional.  However I like my 82
Olds Toro best for braking in heavy snow (NO abs), not to mention
always-great traction with the 403 over the drive wheels.

Ian 

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End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #4785
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