
oldsmobile-digest         Monday, May 3 2004         Volume 01 : Number 4876



Coan Engineering - GREAT SERVICE
Re: Plug recommendation
Engine rebuild problems (non-Olds)
Wahooo!
Wahooo!
FS 1968 Ninety Eight convertible
Re: Engine rebuild problems (non-Olds)
Re: Door Pins for Dummys
Re: Engine rebuild problems (non-Olds)
Re: Door Pins for Dummys
Re: Door Pins for Dummys
Re: Door Pins for Dummys
Re: Engine rebuild problems (non-Olds)
Re: Engine rebuild problems (non-Olds)
Re: FS 1968 Ninety Eight convertible
69 Cutlass wanted
UNBOUBCE: Seeking '65 98 Parts
Gardner Exhaust install on a  '65 442
RE: Gardner Exhaust install on a  '65 442
Re: 69 Cutlass wanted
Re: Gardner Exhaust install on a  '65 442
Re: Engine rebuild problems (non-Olds)
Advice on 72 Cutlass 455 w/ air engine reassembly.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 07:47:31 -0400
From: "Paul Tumolo" <ptumolo@comcast.net>
Subject: Coan Engineering - GREAT SERVICE

I just wanted to update the list on my torque converter search and
results. I had contacted 6 torque converter suppliers via their web
sites for a recommendation for a new torque converter for my new 455.
Out of the 6 contacted, I only received ONE response: 
Coan. They actually sent me 2 e-mails and also followed up with a phone
call. The technician stayed on the phone for about 25 minutes, and made
a recommendation based upon my dyno sheet and other car details. 

The converter showed up 2 days later! It's a 11" HD unit with a stall of
about 2400. Should be perfect for my combo.

Great service from Coan.

I guess the others (PTC, JW, Dynamic, etc.) are too busy to answer
questions and sell product.

Paul Tumolo
1970 442 Hardtop
OCA # 31967 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 08:52:26 -0400
From: Michael Ecker <ecker567@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Plug recommendation

Kevin, I have used the R44SX, R45SX and R46SZ plugs in Olds 350's in the 
past.  The R44SX seemed a little cool - tended to foul easier than the 
other two.  Both the R45SX and the R46SZ worked fine the other times I 
used them.  Only minor caveat with the R46SZ is that the slightly hotter 
plugs may make the engine more prone to detonation (pinging) - be sure 
to listen carefully for it and make sure your timing is not overly 
advanced beyond factory specs, and the R46 plugs should work just fine.  
If they give you a problem, the Accel plugs works well (but not worth 
the money in my book), and I have used the Autolites with good results 
also.  I prefer the AC Delco plugs but agree they are getting harder to 
find around here.

Michael Ecker

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 10:27:17 -0400
From: "Dave Cullen" <david.cullen@snet.net>
Subject: Engine rebuild problems (non-Olds)

Hey guys, I'm trying to freshen up the engine on my old 1974 Norton
motorcycle, and I seem to be making it worse instead of better. I don't know
what to do next. Here's the situation...

Last Fall I measured compression and got 130/100 psi (2 cyl's). Putting oil
in the plug holes brought it up to 140 on both sides. On disassembly, I
measured ring gaps and got .010/.016". The service limit is .010".

There's no visible wear on the pistons at all:
http://pages.cthome.net/davecullen/norton_pistons.JPG

Cyl bores are within .001" of nominal (3.040) for +.01 overbore, and .0005"
eccentricity. Seemed like all it needed was rings. I honed the cylinders:
http://pages.cthome.net/davecullen/norton_cylinders.JPG and decided
"mightaswell" lap in the valves.

On reassembly, compression is worse than before (60 / 110 psi). Leakdown
test shows that air is leaking past the new rings (comming out the crankcase
breather) and one of the intake valves. Putting oil in the plug holes brings
leakage rate down to 20%. I'm bummed bigtime.

I used a brand new "fine" 3-stone hone and only ran it long enough to give a
consistent finish. The valves were carefully lapped with 2 grades of
compound and thoroughly cleaned. Inspected with a magnifier the mating
surfaces have a uniform matte finish. Rings are NOS factory spares. Ring gap
with the new rings is .006" on both sides. New valve springs all 'round. New
intake valves also.

Where did I go wrong, and how should I proceed to get this old girl back to
good compression?

drc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 12:42:14 -0400
From: "ftfunnyfarm" <ftfunnyfarm@voyager.net>
Subject: Wahooo!

Hey ya'll...just wanted to let you know that a picture of my Cutty's
backseat with the American flag made it on Rice Hater's Club featured pics
page!!! Dont know when it got on there or for how long it will be
there...but I am so Happy!!!

Check it out here if ya care to!

http://www.ricehatersclub.com/vbulletin/index.php?s=

Thanks

Tami

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 12:42:14 -0400
From: "ftfunnyfarm" <ftfunnyfarm@voyager.net>
Subject: Wahooo!

Hey ya'll...just wanted to let you know that a picture of my Cutty's
backseat with the American flag made it on Rice Hater's Club featured pics
page!!! Dont know when it got on there or for how long it will be
there...but I am so Happy!!!

Check it out here if ya care to!

http://www.ricehatersclub.com/vbulletin/index.php?s=

Thanks

Tami

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 14:29:22 -0400
From: "John Nasta" <email@johnnasta.com>
Subject: FS 1968 Ninety Eight convertible

With spring in the air, I'm back to trying to sell my 1968 Ninety Eight
convertible. I have it advertised on cctol.com for $7k, of course with the
expectation that people will usually want to haggle. It's a great car that
I've had lots of fun with, but storage has become an issue and I never have
time to drive it or work on it any more. Contact me privately if interested.
Detailed photos (that even show some of the things that can stand
improvement) are at http://johnnasta.com/6898

You can also get lots of general information about this car and some about
other Oldsmobiles at http://johnnasta.com/6898/resources

I need to get some pics of the engine bay and trunk of my Olds. Hopefully
next weekend. It has the original air cleaner in good condition. The engine
has been painted the correct color, but the inner fenders, firewall, etc.
have not been done. The trunk pan has some holes in it but I have an
excellent one that goes with the car. The floor pan has one fist-sized hole
in the rear footwell area. Any other questions, feel free to ask.

Thanks,
John Nasta

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 11:42:04 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Engine rebuild problems (non-Olds)

Dave,

> On disassembly, I
> measured ring gaps and got .010/.016". The service limit is .010".


What's the recommended mimimum ring gap?


> Cyl bores are within .001" of nominal (3.040) for +.01 overbore, and
.0005"
> eccentricity.
> Ring gap
with the new rings is .006" on both sides.


Direct from a Sealed Power Ring Catalog, the SAE (Society of Automotive
Engineers) recommended automotive compression ring end gaps are:

bore - 2.000"-2.999" = .008"-.016"
bore - 3.000"-3.999" = .010"-.022"
bore - 4.000"-4.999" = .012"-.025"
bore - 5.000"-5.999" = .016"-.035"

When fittings rings to cylinders, every .001" change in bore diameter
changes the gap by approximately .003".

.006" ring gap sounds a bit too tight. If the ring gap was too tight at
operating temperature, the rings could squeeze the bore and piston too tight
and score the cylinder walls. That could cause quick old consumption. Also,
what was the gap on the oil rings? If the gap was too tight, a thin oil rail
could flip sideways and really mess things up.


> and decided
> "mightaswell" lap in the valves.
> Leakdown
> test shows that air is leaking past the new rings (comming out the
crankcase
> breather) and one of the intake valves.
> The valves were carefully lapped with 2 grades of
> compound and thoroughly cleaned. Inspected with a magnifier the mating
> surfaces have a uniform matte finish.


I fully realize that many guys on the List lap valves on their engines, and
I've never said one word about it. It seemed like no one was having any
problems with it. However, back at the speed shop, valve lapping was
verboten, period.

Whether or not the heads in question were off a stocker for a simple valve
job or a AA/Fuel dragster, diamond stones at the correct cutting angles and
cooled with a constant flow of metal cutting coolant lube on the valve
itself were ***all*** that was used on a valve seat and valve face. Then,
the interface was checked with Prussian blue. If there was any discrepancy,
the diamond stone was redressed and the item reground.

Valve lapping compound can become embedded in the pores of the metal at the
microscopic level and one will never get the compound out of the metal
surface. That residue can attack the valve seat interface over time.

I don't know if these 2 items are the source of the problem, but it appears
as if you will need to tear the engine back down. Those 2 areas are where I
would check first.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 16:03:32 -0400
From: "Chris Carson" <fastcarson@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Door Pins for Dummys

How about the way I did it:
1. Support rear end of the door, open.
2. Take handheld file, file away at the retaining tabs on the bottom of the
upper hinge pin until your arm falls off.
3. Drive hinge pin upward and remove.
4. Replace pin and bushings with $4 kit from NAPA.
5. Close door.

Seriously, you only need to replace the upper hinge pin as it takes nearly
ALL the weight of the door. I bought two sets of pins but only needed one
since the door was very tight after replacing the top pin. I think the
passenger side may need unbolting since the pin is actually upside down and
cannot be driven out while on the door, but I haven't bothered with that
yet.

BTW, anyone have a procedure on aligning doors?
Chris
- ----- Original Message -----

> My driver's door is sagging badly and obviously needs
> new pins and bushings.  Anyone have instructions for
> this job that even a dummy could follow?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 13:16:38 -0700
From: geo.aigel@sbcglobal.net
Subject: Re: Engine rebuild problems (non-Olds)

Dave:

You say the pistons look good. But did you measure the ring land clearance 
after installing your new rings? That bike, it's air cooled? Air cooled 
engines are very hard on the first ring and the corresponding land. That 
land likely was worn beyond its limit!?

Then, with a new ring and honed cylinder walls, there is much more force on 
the land and the ring can rock more than planned for by the factory. Two 
things will happen: The ring will never seat right and the ring can even 
break or it can damage the piston.

As far as the valves go, Milton is correct. Lapping the valves is okay on 
your junkyard v8 refresh. For serious sealing on an engine like yours, only 
the proper valve job will do. The geometry on worn valve/seat assemblies is 
a bit screwed up already, and lapping things will make it worse.

If the ring lands were indeed fine, I am wondering how you broke the rings 
in. It may be a good idea to brake the rings in under load. If you do it at 
no load, the gas pressure is relatively low. Higher pressure will help 
break in. There is tons of information about the procedures on the web. On 
our cars we usually don't have the luxury to start it up, set the timing 
and take it around the block, because there is water and other accessories 
to watch that you won't be able to do if you run in the car under load. A 
dyno is a perfect place to break in an engine for the cars.

So, apart it goes again, triple check the bore, check your pistons and buy 
new ones if you need them. Send off the heads to have them refurbished, and 
put it all back together. You should be fine after that. If you can not get 
new or NOS pistons, buy a set from JE, to my knowledge they will fabricate 
whatever piston you need and you could fiddle with compression ratio etc. 
on top of the sheer replacement.

Cheers, George

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 13:18:52 -0700
From: geo.aigel@sbcglobal.net
Subject: Re: Door Pins for Dummys

>BTW, anyone have a procedure on aligning doors?

Blood sweat and tears. That's the problem: Often, after you put new pins, 
your door alignment is all screwed up, since it has been corrected to make 
up for the doors' sag.

On my ragtop there was no way to get to things w/o removing the door. It 
took about 3/4 of an hour per door to have it aligned perfectly. It is a 
trial and error process. Be careful not to mess up the fender by pushing 
the door into it!

George

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 16:32:12 -0400
From: "swanny" <swannys78@adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Door Pins for Dummys

I use a floor jack with a 2X4 on the cup, and  hold the back of the door
with the jack.  An extra set of hands help even if they are not car people
or car oriented. Obviously start with the top hinge and leave all the bolts
snug until you are satisfied. Try not to loosen the pillar post pin unless
absolutley nescessary. I've always went to the bone yard first to try and
find a good set of hinges before the hassle of replacing the pins. Just my
.02 worth
Pat Swanton
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <geo.aigel@sbcglobal.net>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: Door Pins for Dummys


>
> >BTW, anyone have a procedure on aligning doors?
>
> Blood sweat and tears. That's the problem: Often, after you put new pins,
> your door alignment is all screwed up, since it has been corrected to make
> up for the doors' sag.
>
> On my ragtop there was no way to get to things w/o removing the door. It
> took about 3/4 of an hour per door to have it aligned perfectly. It is a
> trial and error process. Be careful not to mess up the fender by pushing
> the door into it!
>
> George
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 16:00:01 -0500
From: "Allen Schwartz" <mycj@tds.net>
Subject: Re: Door Pins for Dummys

 BTW, anyone have a procedure on aligning doors?
> Chris

here is how I do it.

1- take a half a bottle of valum

2-make sure you have at least a week and tell the wife you won't be seing
her for awhile

3-keep disosable items close at hand for throwing against the wall. this
will help insure you don't take a hammer to your car

4-make sure the garage is well insulated so your children don't hear the
words coming out of your mouth.

other than that is is just getting in there, looking at the hinges and
thinking of what the door will do when you move it one way or the other and
then just get started. they are diffeent for every body style

Al Schwartz

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 16:02:59 -0500
From: "Allen Schwartz" <mycj@tds.net>
Subject: Re: Engine rebuild problems (non-Olds)

rings need run time to seat. they will "wear in"

ringht now you have tons of small scratches (honing marks) in the cylender
and they will dissapear after a few hundred miles. yes they are scratches
even if microscopic.

Allen Schwartz
A&L Enterprises
mycj@tds.net
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave Cullen" <david.cullen@snet.net>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 9:27 AM
Subject: Engine rebuild problems (non-Olds)


> Hey guys, I'm trying to freshen up the engine on my old 1974 Norton
> motorcycle, and I seem to be making it worse instead of better. I don't
know
> what to do next. Here's the situation...
>
> Last Fall I measured compression and got 130/100 psi (2 cyl's). Putting
oil
> in the plug holes brought it up to 140 on both sides. On disassembly, I
> measured ring gaps and got .010/.016". The service limit is .010".
>
> There's no visible wear on the pistons at all:
> http://pages.cthome.net/davecullen/norton_pistons.JPG
>
> Cyl bores are within .001" of nominal (3.040) for +.01 overbore, and
.0005"
> eccentricity. Seemed like all it needed was rings. I honed the cylinders:
> http://pages.cthome.net/davecullen/norton_cylinders.JPG and decided
> "mightaswell" lap in the valves.
>
> On reassembly, compression is worse than before (60 / 110 psi). Leakdown
> test shows that air is leaking past the new rings (comming out the
crankcase
> breather) and one of the intake valves. Putting oil in the plug holes
brings
> leakage rate down to 20%. I'm bummed bigtime.
>
> I used a brand new "fine" 3-stone hone and only ran it long enough to give
a
> consistent finish. The valves were carefully lapped with 2 grades of
> compound and thoroughly cleaned. Inspected with a magnifier the mating
> surfaces have a uniform matte finish. Rings are NOS factory spares. Ring
gap
> with the new rings is .006" on both sides. New valve springs all 'round.
New
> intake valves also.
>
> Where did I go wrong, and how should I proceed to get this old girl back
to
> good compression?
>
> drc
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 14:49:58 -0700
From: geo.aigel@sbcglobal.net
Subject: Re: Engine rebuild problems (non-Olds)

>ringht now you have tons of small scratches (honing marks) in the cylender
>and they will dissapear after a few hundred miles. yes they are scratches
>even if microscopic.

Allen:

Hone marks in the cylinders can remain up to hundreds of thousands of 
miles. I have seen them on engines that were never opened at 200k miles. 
The cylinder wall does not have to be polished mirror finish to guarantee a 
perfect seal with the rings. The honing is done to help seat the rings. The 
abrasiveness of the honing marks will decrease exponentially and the marks 
will remain for a long time.

You are correct that the rings neat a few hundred miles to seat, however 
one should have better compression numbers than a tired engine rather 
quickly. Things also should wear in evenly, producing similar numbers in 
all cylinders, which didn't happen on Dave's rebuild.

George

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 18:16:17 -0400
From: "ftfunnyfarm" <ftfunnyfarm@voyager.net>
Subject: Re: FS 1968 Ninety Eight convertible

John...I have forwarded your email to my work were I will show it to a guy
that also has a '68 98 Contertible. I thought it was his at first...lol
Looks just like his.

Tami

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 16:05:57 -0700
From: Kevin & Casey Olund <kcolund@shaw.ca>
Subject: 69 Cutlass wanted

I ran in to a lady today who is looking for a 69 Cutlass for her son to restore. She wants something that's driveable
for now and in restorable condition. Prefers a small block. She is willing to pay up to $5000 Canadian.

If anyone has one that fits the bill, can you forward the info to me.

We are in the Vancouver area of British Columbia.

Kevin

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 22:00:42 -0300 (ADT)
From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Subject: UNBOUBCE: Seeking '65 98 Parts

Not on the list, respond to MaryLouOfferson@outdrs.net if you can assist.

Greg Beaulieu    ab348@chebucto.ns.ca    Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada
          Olds List Admin Info: http://oldslist.oldsgmail.com

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Mary Lou Offerson <MaryLouOfferson@outdrs.net>

Have a radiator overflow tank for a 1965 Oldsmobile Series 98 Luxury Sedan
with a 425 Super Rocket motor?  I prefer same type that was stock at the
time. Not an aftermarket type like checker sells. 

Eric

I'm also looking for an oil dipstick,stock preferably,aftermarket O.K.,as
long as its the original length,not cut to trim like checker sells. 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 18:49:59 -0700
From: "Albert Penello" <albert@albertpenello.com>
Subject: Gardner Exhaust install on a  '65 442

Spent Saturday installing an exhaust system I purchased from Gardner Exhaust
(http://www.gardnerexhaust.com). This was for my '65 442.

I have to say I was *super* impressed. I've never installed an exhaust
system before and was expecting it to be painful given all the horror
stories I've heard with ill-fitting aftermarket systems. Also, my Dad had
made some modifications back in the day so I was putting things back to
stock.

First, I was incredibly impressed buy the packing an attention to detail.
Every piece was individually wrapped and labeled. Pieces even had labels as
to front/back location so an idiot (like me) could figure out how the system
went together the first time. They included EVERYTHING you need - new bolts,
clamps, hangers, sealers, etc. for everything. They also included very clear
instructions with pictures and tips for best assembly.

The best part is everything fit the first time and required very little
tweaking. It basically bolted right on and everything was perfectly aligned.
After a warm-up period and a little re-tightening, there are no leaks. I did
it with the car on Jack-stands and 2 smaller jackstands to support the
tubes.

Anyway, I thought it was worth passing along. Of all the after-market parts
I've purchased during the restoration, this one fit the best. And, unlike
the exhaust hangers I had purchased from YearOne these ones looked right and
fit perfectly. Just my $.02

Albert

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 21:13:43 -0500
From: "Eric Beaupre" <ebeaupre@eserv.biz>
Subject: RE: Gardner Exhaust install on a  '65 442

I have a 65 442 convt and was thinking of replacing the exhuast as it is
quite incorrect.  May I ask what this system cost?  Was it itemized into
head pipes, tailpipes, etc or just one package price.  I'm thinking of
mainly getting just the tail sections as the whole system is pretty new, I'm
mainly just interested in the chambered pipes with the stainless tip.

Thanks
Eric

- -----Original Message-----
From: oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca
[mailto:oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca]On Behalf Of Albert Penello
Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 8:50 PM
To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: Gardner Exhaust install on a '65 442


Spent Saturday installing an exhaust system I purchased from Gardner Exhaust
(http://www.gardnerexhaust.com). This was for my '65 442.

I have to say I was *super* impressed. I've never installed an exhaust
system before and was expecting it to be painful given all the horror
stories I've heard with ill-fitting aftermarket systems. Also, my Dad had
made some modifications back in the day so I was putting things back to
stock.

First, I was incredibly impressed buy the packing an attention to detail.
Every piece was individually wrapped and labeled. Pieces even had labels as
to front/back location so an idiot (like me) could figure out how the system
went together the first time. They included EVERYTHING you need - new bolts,
clamps, hangers, sealers, etc. for everything. They also included very clear
instructions with pictures and tips for best assembly.

The best part is everything fit the first time and required very little
tweaking. It basically bolted right on and everything was perfectly aligned.
After a warm-up period and a little re-tightening, there are no leaks. I did
it with the car on Jack-stands and 2 smaller jackstands to support the
tubes.

Anyway, I thought it was worth passing along. Of all the after-market parts
I've purchased during the restoration, this one fit the best. And, unlike
the exhaust hangers I had purchased from YearOne these ones looked right and
fit perfectly. Just my $.02

Albert

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 May 2004 22:29:24 -0400
From: Don Sowers <dstaxpro@infionline.net>
Subject: Re: 69 Cutlass wanted

Kevin & Casey Olund wrote:

>I ran in to a lady today who is looking for a 69 Cutlass for her son to restore. She wants something that's driveable
>for now and in restorable condition. Prefers a small block. She is willing to pay up to $5000 Canadian.
>
Let's see.......
That's about $5 American, right?  And at the rate things are increasing 
in price down in the lower 48 they had better hurry.....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 22:10:32 -0500
From: "Michael Brady" <mbrady38@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Gardner Exhaust install on a  '65 442

> I have a 65 442 convt and was thinking of replacing the exhuast as it is
> quite incorrect.  May I ask what this system cost?  Was it itemized into
> head pipes, tailpipes, etc or just one package price.  I'm thinking of
> mainly getting just the tail sections as the whole system is pretty new,
I'm
> mainly just interested in the chambered pipes with the stainless tip.
>
> Thanks
> Eric

Hello Eric,

I also wanted to just purchase the tail pipes but they will only sell the
entire system or nothing at all............

Michael Brady
66' 442 Factory L-69 car

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 May 2004 23:21:29 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Engine rebuild problems (non-Olds)

Dave,

George is absolutely right.

> But did you measure the ring land clearance
> after installing your new rings? That bike, it's air cooled? Air cooled
> engines are very hard on the first ring and the corresponding land. That
> land likely was worn beyond its limit!?
>
> Then, with a new ring and honed cylinder walls, there is much more force
on
> the land and the ring can rock more than planned for by the factory. Two
> things will happen: The ring will never seat right and the ring can even
> break or it can damage the piston.


I didn't think of that. It could very well be the problem.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 08:32:42 -0400
From: Michael McDonald <McDonald_M@72ho.com>
Subject: Advice on 72 Cutlass 455 w/ air engine reassembly.

Mike McDonald
McDonald_M@72ho.com

1972 Hurst/Olds sunroof coupe
    "as seen on Speed TV"
   The American Musclecar    
            or
        www.72ho.com

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #4876
*********************************
