
oldsmobile-digest       Sunday, March 14 2004       Volume 01 : Number 4817



Adj brakes 1958,,pulling left
Muncie 4 speeds
Re: Adj brakes 1958,,pulling left
Re: Muncie 4 speeds
Bolts cleaner working OK so far
Re: Lifter preload vs. pedestal numbers
Re: Please help identify this part
Re: Adj brakes58,,TORQUE!
RE: new W-31 head pics (via a link)
Horsepower TV
Horsepowetr TV prt 2
Re: Adj brakes58,,TORQUE!
Re: Lifter preload vs. pedestal numbers
Paging Brad Nicholson
Re: Horsepowetr TV prt 2
Re: Please help identify this part
Re: Brake adj.1958,pulling left
Re: Muncie 4 speeds
Re: Horsepowetr TV prt 2
Re: Lifter preload vs. pedestal numbers
Re: Horsepowetr TV prt 2
Re: Lifter preload vs. pedestal numbers
Twilight Sentinel?????
Re: Twilight Sentinel?????
Re: transmission dipstick
Re: Twilight Sentinel?????
Re: Twilight Sentinel?????
Re: Muncie 4 speeds
Re: transmission dipstick
Re: Twilight Sentinel?????
Re: transmission dipstick

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 20:19:43 -0500
From: Cutlass7276@netscape.net (Randy Hermsen)
Subject: Adj brakes 1958,,pulling left

Hello
I seem to be havin a problem with brakes pulling when applied on the 58.
She pulls left...i adj. the pass side closer to try and even it out,,,its not working,,still pulls left?
I know they are all new shoes and drums around that need to be broke in,new wheel cyl also new.
Also there are no self adj. on the early cars.
If i am pulling left that means the drivers side is to close?
Or adj the pass side closer....but this did not help?
Do the rears make a car pull or only the frts?
The rears seem to be on the loose side.
Brakes are not dragging she seems to roll in neutral easy on almost level grd.
I sure got lotsa get up and go power...its the power stops that maybe worrying me.
Hints plz.
Randy H.
Van.B.C.Can.


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 21:08:34 -0500
From: Don Sowers <dstaxpro@infionline.net>
Subject: Muncie 4 speeds

Okay, so it's tax season and I'm more than a tad late with this, but my 
69 S ragtop has a 350 4 speed in it.  Since I have good reason to 
believe it has the original drive train, what trans would probably be in 
the car?  And, the thing that started the poor little car's decent into 
automotive h#ll was that it keep popping out of 4th gear while going 
down the road, what would have caused that problem?  Would the syncros 
have anything to do with that or was something else messed up?  It seems 
from the prior discussions that it would not be all that difficult for 
even a neophyte wrenchhead wannabe like myself to replace the syncros, 
but maybe I missed something somewhere.  I would really like to get this 
fine little car running again and on the road some day, and I suspect 
the trans will be the easiest part of the process.  It has been sitting 
for at least 12-15 years with no water/coolant in the system or block, 
and I am sure will need a complete overhaul of the engine from top to 
bottom.  Any decent ideas as to what this will cost in Mid America?  The 
body work I can get done at a reasonable price (with a little assistance 
from me), but the mechanic work is a whole new world for me.  I can bolt 
on and bolt off, but trying to tackle a rebuild of that nature would 
probably not be a good idea....  If I ever get the little yellow car 
back on the road, I will have to sit down and type out the whole story 
again, if for no other reason than the local car shows.....  This one 
will have to be a frame off eventually, because it deserves it....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 02:09:14 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: Adj brakes 1958,,pulling left

At 08:19 PM 3/13/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>Hello
>I seem to be havin a problem with brakes pulling when applied on 
>the 58. She pulls left...i adj. the pass side closer to try and 
>even it out,,,its not working,,still pulls left?

Probly front end suspension; you didn't rebuild it, right?

NEVER try to cure pull by adjusting the brakes; it'll do nasty things when
you slam them on. Brakes need to be even at each end of the car: fronts
even, and rears even.

SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 03:03:05 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: Muncie 4 speeds

At 09:08 PM 3/13/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>the thing that started the poor little car's decent into 
>automotive h#ll was that it keep popping out of 4th gear 
>while going down the road, what would have caused that 
>problem?  Would the syncros have anything to do with that 
>or was something else messed up?

Yes, that's the other indication of worn synchros. Usually, when it pops
outta gear like that, you also find the synchro teeth on the gear itself to
be worn. Gears aren't a whole lotta money, not like a cluster or output shaft.

>It seems from the prior discussions that it would not be all that 
>difficult for even a neophyte wrenchhead wannabe like myself to 
>replace the syncros, but maybe I missed something somewhere.

No, not that difficult. But it WILL be pretty frustrating the first time or
two as you're trying to figger out how to get them damb snap rings on and
off. I never did replace any snap rings but if I had, things would have
gone smoother on later rebuilds because the tips of the things wear down
every time the snap ring pliers slip off. At this age, it'd be a good idea
to replace them anyhow.

You need a gasket kit, seals (front and rear), synchros, snap rings, and
maybe a new 4th gear. The input and output shaft bearings are probably OK
but if they aren't as much as a house downpayment, mitaswell replace em.

>I would really like to get this fine little car running again and 
>on the road some day, and I suspect the trans will be the easiest 
>part of the process.

Wal... relatively-speaking, probly. It'll likely take you two whole nites,
possibly longer, 4-6 hours a nite, disassembling it all the way, cleaning
everything up, evaluating wear, then doing the reassembly. You might get it
all apart the first nite and possibly cleaned and parts evaluated (likely
to be a long nite). Second night, you'll get the output shaft with gears
reassembled and probly cluster reinstalled with roller bearings. If things
go real easy, you may even get the input shaft reinstalled. I always used
Molybdenum disulfide grease to hold the rollers. One reason why it can take
so long to get back together is you'll have to find out how all the gears
go back in by trial and error... not everything just drops inside. 

>the mechanic work is a whole new world for me.  I can bolt 
>on and bolt off, but trying to tackle a rebuild of that 
>nature would probably not be a good idea....

If there's any brochures or manuals on rebuilding the Muncie, mitaswell get
them. Back in my days, we never even WONDERED whether there were any such
things... just never occurred to us. The big book (Chilton's, Motor's
Manual, etc.) were of very little help, having small drawings and being of
dubious accuracy. Having factory service manuals for our cars?? Sheesh, the
only guys who had THOSE were the rich kids who always seemed to pay others
to do their work anyhow ;o\

SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 00:29:12 -0500
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: Bolts cleaner working OK so far

OK, got the prove-out tumbler bolts cleaner up and running today. First, I 
found that too much fodder does not tumble, it just sits there. Removed 
about half the items, the rest tumbled just fine. Added some oil-dri, just 
got dusty. Added some water with Spic-n-Span in it, NOW it looks effective. 
Water gets dirty, therefore, bolts are getting clean. Started about 6pm.

Checked in about 11pm, VERY nice results. Only the toughest spots still a 
bit dirty. Worm type hose clamp- was very grungy- looks like new. Took one 
intake bolt out, wiped with tissue, only a very small amount of grunge in 
the threads area. Toughest spots to get clean are of course the recessed 
heads of e.g. the oil pump bolts, oil pan corners bolts, rocker cover bolts, 
etc. Oil-dri got pounded into dust and shoved into the lower pail thru the 
holes in the tumbler pail. Otherwise the thing worked great. Plastic pail is 
nice and quiet, can leave it running as long as I like. Non-solvent cleaning 
agent means I can do it in the house, not worry about fumes or spillage or 
fire.

Larger unit now in planning, with slightly different cleaning agent and 
tumbling media.
Pix of this unit upon request.
- -----------------------
Chris Witt
1303 W. Miller Rd.
Lansing MI 48911

RocketScience442@hotmail.com

Cell 517-449-0432 weekends or short weekday calls or leave message.
Home 517-882-9747 thru 10-11pm MI time most days

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 00:46:43 -0500
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Lifter preload vs. pedestal numbers

>0.040" at the rocker pedestal translates to about 0.060" motion at the
>lifter plunger. I just went thru all that on the W31-ish engine.
============================
No Chris. 0.040" at the pedestal/rocker arm stud is the same for the
pushrod, but it *is* 0.064" at the valve.
==============
noper
The valve is not moving yet, we're depressing the lifter plunger. By a 
mathematical coincidence, the ratio between pedestal motion as you go from 
just-eliminate-clearance to pedestal-seated is just about exactly the same 
figure, 1.5 to 1.6 x as much lifter plunger motion as pedestal motion.

That is, if you just eliminate all slack, then as you snug down the 
pedestal, it moves 0.040", you have depressed the lifter plunger right about 
1.5x that, or 0.060".

Trust me, I JUST went thru all that and MORE in degreeing cam and setting 
plunger pre-load on the 350. Accurate numbers from feeler gages, turn 
counts, and dial indicator, good to +/- 0.002 or so.

Look at it this way- in this scene the fulcrum- the point that DOES NOT 
move- is the valve tip/ rocker tip at valve interface. The lifter end of the 
rocker is farthest from that fulcrum. Therefore, for any given motion in 
between [at the pedestal], there will be MORE motion at the pushrod end, 
therefore at the lifter plunger. It's a mathematical fact, it's not 
arguable, and it's readily proven as you perform the procedure. I can dig 
out the exact numbers I obtained if you insist.

The rocker arm ratio dimension difference is from the pivot point to the 
valve stem tip contact point.
pushrod to pivot = 1 unit
pivot to valve stem contact = 1.6 units
Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com
================
Ah, but that only works IF the PEDESTAL is the STATIONARY fulcrum, as in 
normal valve operation.
To use your math, when setting lifter preload [remember that the fulcrum is 
now at the valve tip]:

Fulcrum to pedestal = 1.6 units
Fulcrum to pushrod seat = 2.6 units
Ratio = 2.6/1.6 = 1.625- by mathematical coincidence, as I said, almost 
exactly the same as the 1.6/1.0 rato when the fulcrum is the pedestal. 
Therefore, 0.040" motion of the pedestal as you go from no-slack to snugged 
down = 0.065" of lifter plunger preload, just as I said initially.
- -----------------------
Chris Witt
1303 W. Miller Rd.
Lansing MI 48911

RocketScience442@hotmail.com

Cell 517-449-0432 weekends or short weekday calls or leave message.
Home 517-882-9747 thru 10-11pm MI time most days

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 00:52:12 -0500
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Please help identify this part

Texas442@Texas442.com writes:
Can someone please look at the photo in the link below and tell me where
this part goes to?  I have no clue what it is.  It came out of a 1971
Cutlass SX convertible that was completely disassembled for frame off
restoration.  It measures about 6"x4".  See photos here:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Is this a starter brace? The most common ones were only an inch wide but
there were some much wider and has the hole in the lower corner for the 
clutch
return spring? I have heard of this style but never saw one.
  Interesting and interested?
Everett   OCA# 1961   1961 Starfire
==============================
I don't think that's the wide type starter brace, too much rib, and the 
holes are same size- starter brace has a 3/8 and one 5/16 hole. 3rd small 
hole out of place too. I am guessing- some sort of convertible mechanism 
part? If it is a convert, like most of the SX's I have seen.

That's pretty good, to stump ME on an Olds part of that era, I must say.
- -----------------------
Chris Witt
1303 W. Miller Rd.
Lansing MI 48911

RocketScience442@hotmail.com

Cell 517-449-0432 weekends or short weekday calls or leave message.
Home 517-882-9747 thru 10-11pm MI time most days

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 03:03:36 -0500
From: Cutlass7276@netscape.net (Randy Hermsen)
Subject: Re: Adj brakes58,,TORQUE!

Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net> wrote:

>Probly front end suspension; you didn't rebuild it, right?
>
>NEVER try to cure pull by adjusting the brakes; it'll do nasty things when
>you slam them on. Brakes need to be even at each end of the car: fronts
>even, and rears even.
>
>SteveH
>
>Hay crew chief
Also the M.C/Treadle vac is still suspect,last year mine went sour...so i took 2 and made one good one,,,today the pedal went hard after a hard stop down hill off freeway with poor adj on brakes.
I may have to splurge$ soon and get another M.C.
Took her for a long haul freeway and city drive 5 1/2 hrs. after i adj up again.
She seemed to even out totally now after corrective adj. and a long drive.
I did some frt end stuff before, but yes i still need to do more.
I suspected brake adj. due to the diff temps of the drums/caps..rear drivers was hot...pulling left?
Drums all around on the 72 vert are a pain also...the Self adj need to be just right to work,i should really put those disks on.
Brakes seemed fine at end of evening on 58.
For a stock car.....Words can not explain the power i have felt in the last 5 1/2 hrs.
I have owned many cars but now understand what ole folk :O who tell of 394s/371s experienced in there days....WOW!
Oh and yes the end carbs were open most of the day getting a nice clean flushing with a big grin and laughing out loud by me :)
 http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3596099/1077330185609_0313_001.jpg 
 http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3596099/1080150741475_0313_002.jpg 
 http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3596099/1080354653686_0313_003.jpg 
Randy(Wanna do me ball joints and A arm bushing?)H.


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:06:17 -0500
From: "Erwin Mendoza" <olds6887442@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: new W-31 head pics (via a link)

I dunno if its a Chevy rear but there's 1 for sale on 442.com in Manalapan, 
NJ



Erwin Mendoza
OCA# 29671
Rallye 350 Chapter(gone but not forgotten)
87 442 (gone as of 10/02/03)
68 442
Edison, NJ
mailto:olds6887442@hotmail.com





>From: chris smetana <grp442@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
>To: oldslist <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
>Subject: new W-31 head pics (via a link)
>Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 16:26:59 -0800 (PST)
>

>
>Also, I am (somewhat) on the lookout for a chevy 12
>bolt, gearing in the 4s and c-clip elims preferred.
>I've got a 12 bolt I can build, but if I can find one
>partially done for a good price I'll grab it.
>
>Chris Smetana
>grp442@yahoo.com
>http://gloryrestoparts.20megsfree.com/
>
>1969 W-31 undergoing restoration for Pure Stock
>competition
>1970 F-85 (which has to be IL emissions tested) trying
>to keep on the road for 'pure enjoyment'
>1969 442 parts car
>plus a whole mess of parts for sale
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
>http://photos.yahoo.com/

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:10:27 -0500
From: "Erwin Mendoza" <olds6887442@hotmail.com>
Subject: Horsepower TV

yesterday I was watching Horsepower TV on the Spike channel, they did 
coverage of the Year One event held every year in Bristol, TN one of the 
show winners they showed off was a 69 H/O :) And just as I thought that made 
my day, the show was running a contest asking viewers to send in a letter 
and a picture of their car and they had to say why their car deserves a 
"makeover" so after seeing some of the entires a 69 442 convertible red 
w/black top and stripes from Florida won

Someone just has to set that Chuck dude straight 
though....................it a '69 "Four-Four-two" not a "Four-forty-two" 
but what do you expect from a fat mullet head that drives and thinks Chevys 
rule!!!! :-P



Erwin Mendoza
OCA# 29671
Rallye 350 Chapter(gone but not forgotten)
87 442 (gone as of 10/02/03)
68 442
Edison, NJ
mailto:olds6887442@hotmail.com

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:11:40 -0500
From: "Erwin Mendoza" <olds6887442@hotmail.com>
Subject: Horsepowetr TV prt 2

I forgot to add that the episode will probably air again today (sunday 3/14) 
at 12:30 EST



Erwin Mendoza
OCA# 29671
Rallye 350 Chapter(gone but not forgotten)
87 442 (gone as of 10/02/03)
68 442
Edison, NJ
mailto:olds6887442@hotmail.com

_________________________________________________________________
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http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 15:05:00 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: Adj brakes58,,TORQUE!

At 03:03 AM 3/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>Also the M.C/Treadle vac is still suspect,last year mine went sour...
>so i took 2 and made one good one,,,today the pedal went hard after 
>a hard stop down hill off freeway with poor adj on brakes.

Did it STAY hard or get softer after a bit? Were the brakes not as
effective while it was hard?

If so, that was likely the BRAKE shoes getting real hot; then they cooled
off. They were fading. Then agin, I've never had a car with that
treadle-vacuum brake system.

>She seemed to even out totally now after corrective adj. and a 
>long drive. I did some frt end stuff before, but yes i still need 
>to do more. I suspected brake adj. due to the diff temps of the 
>drums/caps..rear drivers was hot...pulling left?

OK, maybe so.

>For a stock car.....Words can not explain the power i have felt in the 
>last 5 1/2 hrs. I have owned many cars but now understand what ole folk 
>:O who tell of 394s/371s experienced in there days....WOW!

Heh... now you know how them ole ministers and pastors who loved those Olds
got their jollies  :o))))))

>Oh and yes the end carbs were open most of the day getting a nice clean 
>flushing with a big grin and laughing out loud by me :)

Heh... bet you left a few gas station owners grinning and laughing, too:
"Our Business is saved: HERE COMES RANDO!!!!  :o)))))))))))))"

> http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3596099/1077330185609_0313_001.jpg 
> http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3596099/1080150741475_0313_002.jpg 
> http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3596099/1080354653686_0313_003.jpg 

Nice!

>Randy(Wanna do me ball joints and A arm bushing?)H.

No thanks, getting to old to do other folks' cars across country  :o)

SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 15:40:10 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: Lifter preload vs. pedestal numbers

At 12:46 AM 3/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>>0.040" at the rocker pedestal translates to about 0.060" motion at the
>>lifter plunger. I just went thru all that on the W31-ish engine.
>============================
>No Chris. 0.040" at the pedestal/rocker arm stud is the same for the
>pushrod, but it *is* 0.064" at the valve.
>==============
>noper
>The valve is not moving yet, we're depressing the lifter plunger. By a 
>mathematical coincidence, the ratio between pedestal motion as you go from 
>just-eliminate-clearance to pedestal-seated is just about exactly the same 
>figure, 1.5 to 1.6 x as much lifter plunger motion as pedestal motion.
>
>That is, if you just eliminate all slack, then as you snug down the 
>pedestal, it moves 0.040", you have depressed the lifter plunger right about 
>1.5x that, or 0.060".

Think of it as the valve being the pivot, not moving, instead of the
pedestal being the pivot. If there's 0.040" clearance between the pedestal
and head surface at the moment of the pushrod contacting the rocker, then
pulling the pedestal down 0.064" will push the lifter plunger down another
0.064", not the 0.040" expected. The plunger's motion is the pedestal's
motion times 1.6 = 0.064" or thereabouts. There's no "mathematical
coincidence" involved, it's bout as cut-and-dried as could be, simple
fulcrum physics.

SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 17:16:47 +0000
From: 62oldsfan@comcast.net
Subject: Paging Brad Nicholson

Brad,

If you're here, hit me off the list regarding GM Nationals @ Carlisle.

Or, if someone here has a good email address for Brad, please forward it to me so I can contact him.  Our chapter apparently has a bad email address for him.

Thanks,

Paul

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 12:58:33 -0500
From: "Dan Roethel" <droethel@rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Horsepowetr TV prt 2

> I forgot to add that the episode will probably air again today (sunday
3/14)

Looks like a nice car. It should be interesting to see what these guys do to
it. Not sure if the car was a cloned 442 or an original. Maybe I'll get some
tips that I can use on my 69 Convert.
Is the owner on the list?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 11:35:44 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Please help identify this part

Ali,

That ***is*** the extra wide starter brace, that also doubles as a heat
shield for the starter. I have two identical to it. Mine came off
403s, one Toronado and one regular passenger car.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Texas442" <Texas442@Texas442.com>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>; <ntoc@the-design-studio.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 11:27 AM
Subject: Please help identify this part


> Can someone please look at the photo in the link below and tell me where
> this part goes to?  I have no clue what it is.  It came out of a 1971
> Cutlass SX convertible that was completely disassembled for frame off
> restoration.  It measures about 6"x4".  See photos here:
>
> http://www.texas442.com/DSC05014.JPG
> http://www.texas442.com/DSC05015.JPG
>
> Ali
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 11:47:39 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Brake adj.1958,pulling left

Randy,


> She pulls left...i adj. the pass side closer to try and even it out,,,its
not working,,still pulls left?


Is it possible there is grease or brake fluid on the shoes, like maybe the
wheel bearing grease seal failed or the wheel cylinder is leaking brake
fluid?


> I know they are all new shoes and drums around that need to be broke
in,new wheel cyl also new.


A new wheel cylinder can still fail.


> If i am pulling left that means the drivers side is to close?


Too tight, yes.


> Or adj the pass side closer....but this did not help?


Back off the driver's side and see what happens.


> Do the rears make a car pull or only the frts?


Yes they do but in the reverse. Tight left rear causes the front to veere
right.


> The rears seem to be on the loose side.


Tighten the adjuster until you just feel drag, and then back off a notch.

Milton schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 12:00:21 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Muncie 4 speeds

> And, the thing that started the poor little car's decent into
> automotive h#ll was that it keep popping out of 4th gear while going
> down the road, what would have caused that problem?


>From the '65 Olds CSM:

1) transmission loose on bellhousing.
2) damage mainshaft pilot bearing.
3) main drive gear bearing retainer broken or loose.
4) dirt between transmission case and bellhousing.
5) improperly adjusted shift linkage.
6) splines on input shaft and/or clutch hub worn or defective.
7) bellhousing misaligned with engine.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 18:53:38 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: Horsepowetr TV prt 2

At 12:58 PM 3/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>> I forgot to add that the episode will probably air again today (sunday
>3/14)
>
>Looks like a nice car. It should be interesting to see what these guys do to
>it.

Mark my words: 383 stroker  ;o\  ;o\  ;o\

Rember: you read it here first. :o((((((((((

SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 12:14:52 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Lifter preload vs. pedestal numbers

Okay. 0.025" off the bottom of the pedestal gives 0.040" preload on the
lifter. I forgot about the modified fulcrum relationship. The pivot for this
operation is now off the rocker tip at the valve.

0.040 x 2.6 units = X x 1.6 units
solve for X
X = 0.0246
round off to 0.025

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: Lifter preload vs. pedestal numbers


> >0.040" at the rocker pedestal translates to about 0.060" motion at the
> >lifter plunger. I just went thru all that on the W31-ish engine.
> ============================
> No Chris. 0.040" at the pedestal/rocker arm stud is the same for the
> pushrod, but it *is* 0.064" at the valve.
> ==============
> noper
> The valve is not moving yet, we're depressing the lifter plunger. By a
> mathematical coincidence, the ratio between pedestal motion as you go from
> just-eliminate-clearance to pedestal-seated is just about exactly the same
> figure, 1.5 to 1.6 x as much lifter plunger motion as pedestal motion.
>
> That is, if you just eliminate all slack, then as you snug down the
> pedestal, it moves 0.040", you have depressed the lifter plunger right
about
> 1.5x that, or 0.060".
>
> Trust me, I JUST went thru all that and MORE in degreeing cam and setting
> plunger pre-load on the 350. Accurate numbers from feeler gages, turn
> counts, and dial indicator, good to +/- 0.002 or so.
>
> Look at it this way- in this scene the fulcrum- the point that DOES NOT
> move- is the valve tip/ rocker tip at valve interface. The lifter end of
the
> rocker is farthest from that fulcrum. Therefore, for any given motion in
> between [at the pedestal], there will be MORE motion at the pushrod end,
> therefore at the lifter plunger. It's a mathematical fact, it's not
> arguable, and it's readily proven as you perform the procedure. I can dig
> out the exact numbers I obtained if you insist.
>
> The rocker arm ratio dimension difference is from the pivot point to the
> valve stem tip contact point.
> pushrod to pivot = 1 unit
> pivot to valve stem contact = 1.6 units
> Milton Schick
> 1964 442 Cutlass
> imp@theriver.com
> ================
> Ah, but that only works IF the PEDESTAL is the STATIONARY fulcrum, as in
> normal valve operation.
> To use your math, when setting lifter preload [remember that the fulcrum
is
> now at the valve tip]:
>
> Fulcrum to pedestal = 1.6 units
> Fulcrum to pushrod seat = 2.6 units
> Ratio = 2.6/1.6 = 1.625- by mathematical coincidence, as I said, almost
> exactly the same as the 1.6/1.0 rato when the fulcrum is the pedestal.
> Therefore, 0.040" motion of the pedestal as you go from no-slack to
snugged
> down = 0.065" of lifter plunger preload, just as I said initially.
> -----------------------
> Chris Witt
> 1303 W. Miller Rd.
> Lansing MI 48911
>
> RocketScience442@hotmail.com
>
> Cell 517-449-0432 weekends or short weekday calls or leave message.
> Home 517-882-9747 thru 10-11pm MI time most days
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get business advice and resources to improve your work life, from
bCentral.
> http://special.msn.com/bcentral/loudclear.armx
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 14:15:46 -0500
From: "swanny" <swannys78@adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Horsepowetr TV prt 2

In the show they said that it is a *wannabe* 442....I would hope they won't
mess with putting another motor that wasn't an option in that car in
1969....If they do,----shame on them----
Pat. <swanny>
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Harrison" <k0xp@dandy.net>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: Horsepowetr TV prt 2


> At 12:58 PM 3/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> >> I forgot to add that the episode will probably air again today (sunday
> >3/14)
> >
> >Looks like a nice car. It should be interesting to see what these guys do
to
> >it.
>
> Mark my words: 383 stroker  ;o\  ;o\  ;o\
>
> Rember: you read it here first. :o((((((((((
>
> SteveH
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 12:27:36 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Lifter preload vs. pedestal numbers

I'd just love it if I didn't have dyslexia of the fingers while typing.

0.040 / 2.6 units = X / 1.6 units
0.040 x 1.6 units = X x 2.6 units
solve for X
X = 0.0246
round off to 0.025

> 0.040 x 2.6 units = X x 1.6 units
> solve for X
> X = 0.0246
> round off to 0.025

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 14:38:35 -0500
From: "Paul Tumolo" <ptumolo@comcast.net>
Subject: Twilight Sentinel?????

My build sheet has a "U15" on it. The option is called Twilight
Sentinel.

Anyone know what it is?????

Thanks

Paul Tumolo 
1970 442
OCA # 31967 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 14:53:21 -0500
From: "Fred Nissen" <fsnissen@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Twilight Sentinel?????

> My build sheet has a "U15" on it. The option is called Twilight
> Sentinel.
>
> Anyone know what it is?????

- -------------------

Twilight Sentinel is a gadget that senses ambient light via a photocell near
the driver's side radio speaker grille in the dash and turns on your
headlights for you.  It also allows the lights to remain on for a timed
interval after the car is shut down so you can see to find your way into
your house at night.  It can be turned "off" and then the lights operate
normally via the switch.  Fairly common on Cadillacs, 98's Toronados, senior
Buicks, etc.  I don't recall it ever being offered on RWD Cutlass models or
their derivatives.

Regards,
Fred

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 23:37:13 +0200
From: Hannu Pyssysalo <hannu.pyssysalo@koti.soon.fi>
Subject: Re: transmission dipstick

On Thursday, March 11th, 2004 00:47 EET, John Kelsey wrote:
> Marty
>     A tubing or conduit bender (any electrician should have one) will
> let you custom bend that trans dipstick without damage.
> LOL
> John Kelsey
> Dayton Ohio

The dipstick tube should be bent so that the dipstick will go in smoothly.  
The dipstick doesn't bend sideways because it is flat.  The dipstick can be 
turned into spiral to allow it to bend more freely.  Making the spiraled 
dipstick and the bent tube not interfere requires more 3D geometry skills 
than most of us have.

How about using dipstick & tube from a van? 

Hannu Pyssysalo
Tampere, Finland
President, Oldsmobile Club of Finland ry.
'65 Jetstar 88 Convertible

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:38:26 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: Twilight Sentinel?????

At 02:38 PM 3/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>My build sheet has a "U15" on it. The option is called Twilight
>Sentinel.
>
>Anyone know what it is?????

What year?

Mid-'80s Twilight Sentinel is a sensor mounted in the center of the top of
the windshield way up by the glass which detects ambient light. When
enabled, it'll automatically turn on your headlights and when you turn off
the ignition, it'll keep the headlights turned on for a period of time
adjustable by front panel knob from about 5 seconds to several minutes.

I dunno how the older ones worked or how well; the '80s electronic one
works well.

SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 21:42:02 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: Twilight Sentinel?????

At 02:53 PM 3/14/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>Fairly common on Cadillacs, 98's Toronados, senior Buicks, etc.

...... and full-sized station wagons.

>I don't recall it ever being offered on RWD Cutlass models or
>their derivatives.

Never seen it in one those but no reason it can't be added; it's a
stand-alone system although it's part of what's called the "Convenience
Center" option which replaced the screeching buzzer with a ding-ding-ding
chimer (which WAS available in later G-bodies).

Actually, I think I recall seeing the Twilight Sentinel in an '86 Regal.

SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 18:54:01 -0500
From: "Dave Wyatt" <wyattolds@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Muncie 4 speeds

Milton gave a good list, but let me  add something else from my personal 
experience.

A bad pilot bearing will let the input shaft move around, causing 4th to 
disengage at the worst times.  My 70 had the engine replaced before I got 
the car and they used a 455 from a 71 automatic car.  Needless to say, the 
crank had to be drilled before they installed it and obviously it was not 
quite centered.  I replaced a few pilots over the years and the car was 
always jumping out of gear.   Later on I replaced that engine with another 
former auto equipped 455 and have the crank drilled.  This one was even 
worse, so even after rebuilding the tranny, it popped out of gear just as 
bad as before and it still ate pilots like candy.

I finally installed one of the pilot adapters from Supercars Unlimited and 
it actually helped somewhat.        I say somewhat, because damage was done 
to the small teeth on the input and the inside of the slider is worn from 
all of the popping out of gear.  I need to pull the tranny and replace some 
expensive parts now.

No matter what you find to be your cause, be prepared to replace some 
internals from the damage done by all of the involuntary  disengagements.

Dave Wyatt
70  4-4-2
67 Vista Cruiser

_________________________________________________________________
Frustrated with dial-up? Lightning-fast Internet access for as low as 
$29.95/month. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 00:12:01 +0000
From: 77w30442@comcast.net
Subject: Re: transmission dipstick

trans dapt overs a flexable universal dipstick tube assy.
i believe loker also makes one for stret rods needing custom items.
ron   
> On Thursday, March 11th, 2004 00:47 EET, John Kelsey wrote:
> > Marty
> >     A tubing or conduit bender (any electrician should have one) will
> > let you custom bend that trans dipstick without damage.
> > LOL
> > John Kelsey
> > Dayton Ohio
> 
> The dipstick tube should be bent so that the dipstick will go in smoothly.  
> The dipstick doesn't bend sideways because it is flat.  The dipstick can be 
> turned into spiral to allow it to bend more freely.  Making the spiraled 
> dipstick and the bent tube not interfere requires more 3D geometry skills 
> than most of us have.
> 
> How about using dipstick & tube from a van? 
> 
> Hannu Pyssysalo
> Tampere, Finland
> President, Oldsmobile Club of Finland ry.
> '65 Jetstar 88 Convertible
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 00:19:18 +0000
From: 77w30442@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Twilight Sentinel?????

its a sytem used to keep head lights on longer after key is turned off so the owner has extra light to walk to the house. also turns head lights on when its senses low light.
 a really fun sytem to work on at times.
ron
> My build sheet has a "U15" on it. The option is called Twilight
> Sentinel.
> 
> Anyone know what it is?????
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Paul Tumolo 
> 1970 442
> OCA # 31967 
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:36:54 -0500
From: John Kelsey <ribspot@pop4.net>
Subject: Re: transmission dipstick

Hannu Pyssysalo wrote:

> On Thursday, March 11th, 2004 00:47 EET, John Kelsey wrote:
> 
>>Marty
>>    A tubing or conduit bender (any electrician should have one) will
>>let you custom bend that trans dipstick without damage.
>>LOL
>>John Kelsey
>>Dayton Ohio
> 
> 
> The dipstick tube should be bent so that the dipstick will go in smoothly.  
> The dipstick doesn't bend sideways because it is flat.  The dipstick can be 
> turned into spiral to allow it to bend more freely.  Making the spiraled 
> dipstick and the bent tube not interfere requires more 3D geometry skills 
> than most of us have.
> 
> How about using dipstick & tube from a van? 
> 
> Hannu Pyssysalo
> Tampere, Finland
> President, Oldsmobile Club of Finland ry.
> '65 Jetstar 88 Convertible
> 
> 
> 
Use any tube you like just make sure the length will allow for proper
oil level indication when you check it
John Kelsey
Dayton Ohio

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #4817
*********************************
