
oldsmobile-digest       Monday, March 22 2004       Volume 01 : Number 4827



Re: Wheel bearing races - replace?
Re: Fw: thoughts on rear gears
RE: quadrabog help
Re: quadrabog help
RE: quadrabog help
RE: Good Decision
Wanted: Pontiac 5 spoke wheel
Re: quadrabog help
RE: 65 442 Question
RE: quadrabog help
selling intake
RE: 4-Core Radiator recommendation
Re: lead additive
Re: 4-Core Radiator recommendation
Typical Chevy junk, was Typical GM confusion from Type F person
Re: quadrabog help
Bog upon opening secondaries
Re: Wheel bearing races - replace?
RE: quadrabog help
RE: quadrabog help
RE: Bog upon opening secondaries
Fw: thoughts on rear gears
Re: thoughts on rear gears
Re: quadrabog help
Re: Fw: thoughts on rear gears
Re: quadrabog help
RE: quadrabog help
Re: 65 442 Question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 10:44:07 -0500
From: Robert Barry <rbarry@providence.edu>
Subject: Re: Wheel bearing races - replace?

At 10:15 AM 3/22/2004, you wrote:
>I purchased a set of fancy drilled-and-slotted rotors (no lectures on the 
>merits/pitfalls of cross drilling or slotting, I'm well aware of the 
>issues) for my tall spindle/big brake upgrade, and they came with bearing 
>races installed. Should I just use those with the new bearings, or should 
>I knock them out and install the races that come with the bearings? I've 
>never had new rotors, so this is a first for me.

As long as they are quality races, they should work fine with the new 
bearings. The bearings should be manufactured to standard tolerances for a 
given application, as should the races. As long as the races are right 
width and angle, they should work fine. I've mixed races and bearings in a 
number of applications, and never had problems.


_______________________________________
Bob Barry  MailTo:rbarry@providence.edu
http://home.off-road.com/~wagoneer/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 10:49:50 -0500
From: Robert Barry <rbarry@providence.edu>
Subject: Re: Fw: thoughts on rear gears

At 10:24 AM 3/22/2004, you wrote:
>I'm trying to determine what gears and possible rear end to run in my
>69 W-31.  Since I'm building this car to compete in Pure Stock Drag
>racing, I can run any gear ratio and either the current Type O or I can
>switch to a chevy 12 bolt.  The car is an automatic and will have a tight
>convertor (say something in the 800-1200 stall range).  I will also be
>running repro Goodyear Polyglas F70x14 tires on factory 14x6 SSII rims,
>roughly 26" tall from what I understand.  The engine will have no
>problem spinning to the 5700-5800 range.  Currently I have the factory Type
>O with 3.91 posi.  From looking at similar setups that currently run in
>Pure Stock, I need at least 4.10s.  I really would like to find some
>4.33, but lets assume I don't.  Would 4.56 (in a chevy 12 bolt) be too
>steep or would 4.10s be the best choice.  The more I think about it, the
>more I've decided to either a) run the current Type O, ONLY if I can
>find some 4.33.  b) run the chevy 12 bolt with c-clip eliminators (an
>allowed safety item) with 4.10 or 4.56.  I have a chevy 12 bolt that I
>can build but I've also got a line on one already built with 4.56

I saw your post the first time, but thought others would chime in.

With that W-31 cam, I would initially think something in the 4.30-4.56 
range would work best; you'll have the capability to spin that motor to the 
rpm's those gears would have turning at the trap-speeds it should run 
(~115-125mph?).

I'm somewhat surprised at the super-tight converter you mentioned. Is that 
meant to prevent blowing away the tires off the line? I imagine there are 
other ways of doing it besides a huge bog for the first 100'. How about a 
converter matched to those gears and cam (I'd say a 3000rpm unit would be 
more conventional), and either retarding the timing in 1st gear or varying 
driving-style?

Or is a tight converter the hot setup for the stock-appearing drags?


_______________________________________
Bob Barry  MailTo:rbarry@providence.edu
http://home.off-road.com/~wagoneer/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 10:51:38 -0500
From: Robert Barry <rbarry@providence.edu>
Subject: RE: quadrabog help

At 10:32 AM 3/22/2004, you wrote:
>I had not heard this before but it makes sense.  Has anyone had experience 
>with having to richen the secondary rods or jets after blocking the intake 
>crossover?  I'll have to see if I have any smaller rods and give this a try.
>
>Did I just ruin my performance by blocking the exhaust crossover ports?  I 
>thought this would be a performance increase.

It has the POTENTIAL for a performance increase, but the colder intake 
won't do it alone.

For the kind of driving I do, I won't take the tradeoffs involved in 
blocking the crossover. Driveability in cool weather (75% of what we see 
here) is a lot more important than 3/10ths in the quarter.


_______________________________________
Bob Barry  MailTo:rbarry@providence.edu
http://home.off-road.com/~wagoneer/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 10:59:51 -0500
From: "JOHN ORR" <jorr@paylessequipment.com>
Subject: Re: quadrabog help

  Hey Mike,
   Bob has it right, I did the samething you did when I changed to the
Performer RPM. Once I got things worked out with the carb, the car ran
great. Blocking off the crossover is a good thing, helps me here in FL with
keeping the fuel a little cooler before being dumped...  others will have
better answers for you I am sure.
john
67 cutlass supreme

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 09:55:06 -0600
From: "Mike Schlottman" <mschlott@spe.org>
Subject: RE: quadrabog help

This is the original carb.  It does have primary rods though.  It's a girly w-30 with an automatic.  That means the tires stop spinning after it shifts into 3rd.  :)

Thanks for the confirmation.  I found this info from the W-30 super tuning guide on 442.com.

"The dashpot or diaphragm located at the right-front corner of the carburetor effects
the air valve as well as choke operation. It provides a smooth opening of the air
valve rather than the popping open when the secondaries are reached. It is used mostly
for less than full throttle maneuvers, but can also be a benefit for full throttle
operation, especially with the intake manifold heat crossover blocked. By delaying the
opening rate of the air valve, less spring wrap may possibly be used."

I would imagine that I want to look at the jets and rods before messing with the dashpot.  Is the dashpot even adjustable?  I have never noticed anything to indicate that it is.

    mike

Mike Schlottman
Sr. Systems Administrator
Society of Petroleum Engineers
222 Palisades Creek Drive 
Richardson, TX 75083
972-952-9382


 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: The General [mailto:patton442@verizon.net]
 > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 9:48 AM
 > To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
 > Subject: Re: quadrabog help
 > 
 > 
 > Is the original W30 carb still there ?????
 > No primary rods on the 70 W30 carb .........
 > 
 > What Doc Bob said is dead on - you will have to adjust
 > and tune ................
 > 
 > The General
 > 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 10:20:07 -0600
From: "Ian Dixon" <IDixon@sbrc.ca>
Subject: RE: Good Decision

That's cool news about the crank mod guy.  Good to know.

The cracks on 3 mains of that big-block was quite a reality check.  Made
me think about the whole BBO plan.

Anyway, like all plans, each has its pros and cons.  Use of a good 455
block is a great idea, insofar as its definitely the cheaper and simpler
route to be sure (far less machining).  However now that I have the
parts, I want to do something a little different.  I like the idea of a
428 CID SBO (425 crank stroked to 4.000) and even more so, the toughness
of the block, especially the 3/4" main webs of the DX 350.  Another
thing to think about, the DX uses .921 lifters (rollers), and thus the
design pays homage to the earlier gen Olds 371 and the 425 (in that
respect).  There's enough meat in the DX for the addition of 4-bolt
splayed main caps (aftermarket has them), so am thinking that this
engine could wind higher than a 425 without hurting itself.  The
reciprocating assembly in the former could be made to be very light,
with aftermarket MOPAR or type C rods and 4.155" forged pistons.  

Its an internet engine build at this stage, but the more I look at it,
the more sense it makes.

Ian Dixon

>Or get a 455 block to replace the 425 block. Also, Ron Fama has done
>outstanding work tracking down the man who did all of CrankShaft
Company's
>cranks and the Dyna-Rev modification. He's now in North Carolina. He's
>willing to build more Dyna-Revs.

> I
> paid him 40 bucks for the block, because its really a complete cherry
> low-mile unit, and was running a few weeks ago until it blew a head
> gasket (of course).  He said it would have just rotted if I dint take
> it, finally accepted some cash.
>
> Bad start to this project, but this very cool experience more than
made
> up for it.  The DX gets the 425's crank.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 10:28:42 -0600
From: David Brown <dbrown@mh1.uchospitals.edu>
Subject: Wanted: Pontiac 5 spoke wheel

I need one Pontiac 5 spoke snap in center, trim ringed, steel "Rally II" wheel, 
and 2 trim rings. Any of you guys got one in decent shape for me? Maybe the 
right rings? I don't need the wheel painted, just in good shape. If it has the 
factory paint, even better. The torquey 403 got the best of the posi!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:39:03 -0500
From: SteveH <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: quadrabog help

At Monday, 22 March 2004, you wrote:
>Your intake is not being pre-heated any more. That means your 
>intake-charge is cooler (denser), so you need more fuel,

No; he has TOO MUCH fuel; i.e., too rich now.

>but also that the fuel your carb is dumpin in is not being 
>vaporized as well as it was before.

True, he's getting raw fuel into the cylinders instead of atomized.

>The two factors conspire to give you a lean bog on acceleration.

This would create a RICH bog, not lean. The other telltale sign is 
removing the air cleaner reduces the bog. An air cleaner tends to 
enrichen the mixture slightly since it slightly restricts the amount 
of air. Anytime removing the air cleaner makes an engine run better,
the engine's running rich to begin with.

>Slowing down the opening of the secondaries and advancing 
>the ignition can only help so much; you'll probably have 
>to richen up your accelerator-pump and perhaps use thinner-
>tipped metering rods in order to have enough fuel for 
>throttle tip-in now.

No, just the opposite: he needs to lean things.

Actually, that's going to make things difficult because after the 
engine thoroughly warms up, it'll tend to run leaner anyway. Blocking 
the exhaust crossovers is NEVER a good idea for a street engine that 
has to operate under a wide range of environmental conditions.

But more than likely, all he'll have to do is drive the car a cupla 
hours and the gaskets will burn through anyway  :o)))  Then he can 
go undo all the tuning mods he's been trying to get it to run better 
as it is  ;o\  ;o\  ;o\

SteveH



===================================================================
EASY access to your email http://webmail.dandy.net/mr2/nph-mr.cgi
===================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 21:36:22 -0500
From: "Kurt" <wmachine@shubes.net>
Subject: RE: 65 442 Question

Milton, I don't know what more I can tell you.  There are others who can
"testify" that the heavy-duty 3-speed from '65-'69 is a Ford toploader,and
does come with a Hurst shifter.  My '69 is one, and it is a numbers matching
one.  The VIN is stamped on the trans case, same as it would be if it were a
4-speed.  And I know of 2 other numbers-matching ones.
Due to the relative rarity, I don't think Hurst was that interested in
covering *all* applications.

Kurt mailto:wmachine@shubes.net
http://wmachines.shubes.net
'65 Jetstar 1 (4-speed)       '66 442 Sport Coupe (Tri-Carb, 4-speed)
'67 442 Convertible (4-speed) '69 442 Convertible (3-speed manual)
'92 Achieva SCX W-41(5-speed) '99 Expedition (no-speed)



> -----Original Message-----
> From: oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca
> [mailto:oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca]On Behalf Of Infinite Space
> Systems, Inc.
> Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 8:56 PM
> To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
> Subject: Re: 65 442 Question
>
>
> One of the List members referred to the Ford 3-speed in an Olds A-body
> again. I don't recollect any Ford transmission installed at the factory in
> any GM passenger car from my work in the speed shop in the first
> half of the
> '70s. In the Hurst online catalog at
> http://mrgasket.com/pdf/hurst2001manual.pdf , the heavy duty fully
> sychronized 3-speed for all GM A-bodies is a Saginaw, exactly what I
> remember. The Hurst transmission I.D. chart at
> http://mrgasket.com/pdf/hurst2001transid.pdf clearly shows what a
> Saginaw HD
> 3-speed looks like. My 1985 Hurst catalog agrees exactly with the 2004
> online catalog.
>
> Would somebody mind explaining what's going on? Hurst shows
> nothing for any
> Ford transmission in a GM passenger car. Therefore, a Hurst shifter for a
> Ford transmission in an Olds 442 doesn't make any sense, even
> though factory
> Hurst shifters were not the same nor as strong as aftermarket Hurst
> shifters. The Saginaw HD *was* the 3-speed of choice in the '70s for those
> who wanted to run one in their GM A-body. The Saginaw 3-speed was
> built like
> a tank. There is a Muncie 3-speed that's not as strong, but is fully
> synchronized, and a Chevy 3-speed in which first gear is not synchronized.
>
> Milton Schick
> 1964 442 Cutlass
> imp@theriver.com
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 08:57:49 -0800
From: "Chris Fair" <cfair@att.net>
Subject: RE: quadrabog help

If anybody'd like my qjet tuning spreadsheets, contact me privately. 

I keyed a bunch of stuff a few years ago from Doug Roe's book in my quest
for the ultimate qjet. It shows a few factory combinations as points of
reference for tuning and also shows the square metering area of various
rod/jet combinations. 

As I recall the trick was to get the primaries at just the right spot where
they didn't bog off the line (before secondaries kick in), but rich enough
that they didn't starve the top end of the RPM range. I got close, but do
you ever finish this sort of tuning?

It's a big set of spreadsheets, but it contains a number of combinations
designed to reduce the number of combinations you have to try to get the car
running right. 

Also it's in excel, so you'll need to have that application installed to use
it.

Cheers,
cf 



- -----Original Message-----
From: oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca
[mailto:oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca] On Behalf Of SteveH
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 8:39 AM
To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: Re: quadrabog help


At Monday, 22 March 2004, you wrote:
>Your intake is not being pre-heated any more. That means your
>intake-charge is cooler (denser), so you need more fuel,

No; he has TOO MUCH fuel; i.e., too rich now.

>but also that the fuel your carb is dumpin in is not being
>vaporized as well as it was before.

True, he's getting raw fuel into the cylinders instead of atomized.

>The two factors conspire to give you a lean bog on acceleration.

This would create a RICH bog, not lean. The other telltale sign is 
removing the air cleaner reduces the bog. An air cleaner tends to 
enrichen the mixture slightly since it slightly restricts the amount 
of air. Anytime removing the air cleaner makes an engine run better, the
engine's running rich to begin with.

>Slowing down the opening of the secondaries and advancing
>the ignition can only help so much; you'll probably have 
>to richen up your accelerator-pump and perhaps use thinner-
>tipped metering rods in order to have enough fuel for 
>throttle tip-in now.

No, just the opposite: he needs to lean things.

Actually, that's going to make things difficult because after the 
engine thoroughly warms up, it'll tend to run leaner anyway. Blocking 
the exhaust crossovers is NEVER a good idea for a street engine that 
has to operate under a wide range of environmental conditions.

But more than likely, all he'll have to do is drive the car a cupla 
hours and the gaskets will burn through anyway  :o)))  Then he can 
go undo all the tuning mods he's been trying to get it to run better 
as it is  ;o\  ;o\  ;o\

SteveH



===================================================================
EASY access to your email http://webmail.dandy.net/mr2/nph-mr.cgi
===================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 12:34:41 -0500
From: "swanny" <swannys78@adelphia.net>
Subject: selling intake

For those of you who are interested, ROP has an intake for sale, 
http://www.realoldspower.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=63169#63169
Swanny.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 12:42:25 -0500
From: "Gerow, Daniel R." <dgerow@stonehill.edu>
Subject: RE: 4-Core Radiator recommendation

Gentlemen,

My past few Cutlii have all received 4-core Modine radiators purchased from
a local vendor (who unfortunately, does not ship).
These are reasonably priced, quality items w/ a lifetime warrantee.  I would
highly recommend a Modine as replacement for your work out rad.  A quick
Google search turned up a few online vendors.

  ~ Dan

- -------------------------------------
Daniel R. Gerow
'70 W-31 4spd post
dgerow@stonehill.edu
http://www.oldsrocket.com
- -------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 10:52:33 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: lead additive

John,

> I've heard the
> argument many times that it is not necessary that needing lead is a myth


I've had old-timers even try to tell me that. Old-timers who should have
definitely known better. When a couple decided to really press the issue, I
had to tell them to go straight to Hell to their face.

Tetra-ethyl lead always had 2 main functions in gasoline, a cheap way to
raise the octane level and to lubricate the valve seats, period. Without
tetra-ethyl lead, raising the octane level must be done with more expensive
hydrocarbon additives, such as aniline (which in high enough concentrations
attacks rubber products), and the lubrication must be taken care of by also
using more expensive hydrocarbon additives and/or mechanically through
better valve and valve seat materials, period.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:01:12 -0500
From: "JOHN ORR" <jorr@paylessequipment.com>
Subject: Re: 4-Core Radiator recommendation

   Have to say Dan is right on the money here, I replaced mine with a 4 core
Modine
got it from local radiator shop.... life time warrantee anywhere in the
country... and it was true, the price was great..
john
67 cutlass supreme

    My past few Cutlii have all received 4-core Modine radiators

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:06:45 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Typical Chevy junk, was Typical GM confusion from Type F person

> PS I stopped at the scrap yard last week [no kidding!], and did have
> occasion to examine a C type engine. Astonishingly enough, I saw that...
it
> is true. They put the dist'r thru the intake... on the RH side [that's
> Passenger side] of the engine. On the side of the cam which is traveling
> UPwards. Therefore, the cam is continually forcing the dist gear and shaft
> upwards during operation, and a thrust washer is NECESSARY between gear
and
> AL housing. Seemed like a good idea at the time? Thus, in order to make
the
> thrust on the camshaft be "rearward" for that configuration, the
distributor
> must be made to operate clockwise as viewed from above. That explains that
> one.


That's exactly what I was trying to get across to you before, but maybe my
brain went a little dyslexic with the discription.

The bottomline is this: you would be amazed at the number of aluminum cam
buttons we saw at the speed shop, on both small and big block Chevies, that
actually wore their way through the stamped steel timing cover from
excessive forward cam loads in very high winding engines, usually running
80+ psi oil pressure. Yes, some individuals even went as high as 120 psi oil
pressure in their Chevy big blocks. Why, no one ever knew. They just did and
wouldn't listen to anyone else.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:19:46 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: quadrabog help

Mike,

How does the choke on your Q-jet get heat to open properly? If it takes
manifold heat, you now will not get sufficient heat to open the choke. When
blocking the exhaust crossover passage in the intake manifold, the carb
should either be equipped with an electric choke or a manual choke.

Also, I assume you did *not* put a stock Turkey tray back on, to compliment
the Mr. Gasket set.

You're in Texas, so you should have enough ambient air heat, along with
normal engine warm-up, to not have any cold gas bog in the intake due to
blocking the crossover. Look closely at the choke.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Schlottman" <mschlott@spe.org>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 7:51 AM
Subject: quadrabog help


> This weekend I replaced my intake manifold gaskets to correct an oil leak.
I used Mr. Gasket brand gaskets, and left the exhaust crossovers blocked.
Previously they were open.
>
> When I took the car for a test drive, it bogged any time I floored it.   I
checked the timing and set it at 10 degrees BTC.  Vacuum advance is
connected to carburetor ported vacuum.  I tried advancing the timing to as
far as 14 degrees and it made no difference.
>
> Before I replaced the gaskets, the timing was somewhere around 10 deg BTC.
Throttle response was perfect.
>
> I removed the air cleaner so I could get at the carb.  I went for a test
drive and it seemed a little better.  I adjusted the secondary butterfly
valve spring wrap to be a little tighter.  This helped a lot, but it is
still bogs a little when I floor it.
>
> I drove the car home and had to put it away, so I put the air cleaner back
on and parked it.
> The next day, I took it for a drive and the bog was back.  It looks like
having the air cleaner on makes the bog worse.  I didn't closely inspect the
air cleaner, but I know it has less than 500 miles on it, and it is the same
air cleaner that I used before replacing the intake gaskets.
>
> I believe I have everything back the way it was before I started, but I
could have missed something.  Any ideas?
>
>
>      mike
>
> 1970 442 W-30
>
> Mike Schlottman
> Sr. Systems Administrator
> Society of Petroleum Engineers
> 222 Palisades Creek Drive
> Richardson, TX 75083
> 972-952-9382

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:18:45 -0500
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: Bog upon opening secondaries

>This weekend I replaced my intake manifold gaskets to correct an oil leak.  
>I
used Mr. Gasket brand gaskets, and left
the exhaust crossovers blocked.  Previously they were open.
>
>I believe I have everything back the way it was before I started, but I 
>could
have missed something.  Any ideas?
====================
Did you alter or mess with the choke pulloff? you said you wired the choke 
open... one function of the choke pulloff is to SLOWLY allow the secondaries 
to open upon demand. That's why that link goes all the way back to the 
secondary air valve plates.

I foolishly drilled out the orifice of my plastic choke puloff way back 
before I understood how they worked. After that, I had a bad bog upon 
opening the secondaries. Make sure your choke pulloff is in place and 
operating correctly.
- -----------------------
Chris Witt
1303 W. Miller Rd.
Lansing MI 48911

RocketScience442@hotmail.com

Cell 517-449-0432 weekends or short weekday calls or leave message.
Home 517-882-9747 thru 10-11pm MI time most days

_________________________________________________________________
Free up your inbox with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage. Multiple plans available. 
http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:30:16 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Wheel bearing races - replace?

> and they came with
> bearing races installed. Should I just use those with the new bearings,


Yes, as long as they are the correct races for your bearings and
application. Races and cone bearings are not matched as new. Used, that's a
different story. If used, they must be kept matched, like on differential
side bearings or when repacking front wheel bearings, keep the right on the
right and the left on the left.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 12:21:00 -0600
From: "Mike Schlottman" <mschlott@spe.org>
Subject: RE: quadrabog help

>From reading what Mondello had to say about what he called the dash pot, I always called it a choke pull off,  I remembered that while the engine was running I could freely open the secondaries.  This was never like this before.

I went home at lunch and verified that the choke pull off was not being pulled in at idle like I remember it doing in the past.  Can someone confirm for me, that at idle you should not be able to push the secondaries open.  Vacuum should be holding them shut, correct?  I may have other problems, but this does not seem right.

     mike

Mike Schlottman
Sr. Systems Administrator
Society of Petroleum Engineers
222 Palisades Creek Drive 
Richardson, TX 75083
972-952-9382


 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 12:25:22 -0600
From: "Mike Schlottman" <mschlott@spe.org>
Subject: RE: quadrabog help

Milton, the choke is adjusted so that it barely if at all, chokes the engine.  I just work the throttle a little to get it warmed up. 

Also, I did not put in the valley pan.  Just the gaskets.

    mike

Mike Schlottman
Sr. Systems Administrator
Society of Petroleum Engineers
222 Palisades Creek Drive 
Richardson, TX 75083
972-952-9382


 > How does the choke on your Q-jet get heat to open properly? 
 > If it takes
 > manifold heat, you now will not get sufficient heat to open 
 > the choke. When
 > blocking the exhaust crossover passage in the intake 
 > manifold, the carb
 > should either be equipped with an electric choke or a manual choke.
 > 
 > Also, I assume you did *not* put a stock Turkey tray back 
 > on, to compliment
 > the Mr. Gasket set.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 12:28:29 -0600
From: "Mike Schlottman" <mschlott@spe.org>
Subject: RE: Bog upon opening secondaries

Chris, I think you got it. As described in my other mail.  I'm surprised that I was not having a problem before I replaced the gaskets though.  I may need to check my vacuum when I get home.

    mike

Mike Schlottman
Sr. Systems Administrator
Society of Petroleum Engineers
222 Palisades Creek Drive 
Richardson, TX 75083
972-952-9382


 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: Christopher Witt [mailto:rocketscience442@hotmail.com]
 > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 12:19 PM
 > To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
 > Subject: Bog upon opening secondaries
 > 
 > 
 > >This weekend I replaced my intake manifold gaskets to 
 > correct an oil leak.  
 > >I
 > used Mr. Gasket brand gaskets, and left
 > the exhaust crossovers blocked.  Previously they were open.
 > >
 > >I believe I have everything back the way it was before I 
 > started, but I 
 > >could
 > have missed something.  Any ideas?
 > ====================
 > Did you alter or mess with the choke pulloff? you said you 
 > wired the choke 
 > open... one function of the choke pulloff is to SLOWLY allow 
 > the secondaries 
 > to open upon demand. That's why that link goes all the way 
 > back to the 
 > secondary air valve plates.
 > 
 > I foolishly drilled out the orifice of my plastic choke 
 > puloff way back 
 > before I understood how they worked. After that, I had a bad 
 > bog upon 
 > opening the secondaries. Make sure your choke pulloff is in 
 > place and 
 > operating correctly.
 > -----------------------
 > Chris Witt
 > 1303 W. Miller Rd.
 > Lansing MI 48911
 > 
  > 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:40:57 -0500
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: Fw: thoughts on rear gears

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 07:24:12 -0800 (PST)
From: chris smetana <grp442@yahoo.com>
Subject: Fw: thoughts on rear gears

- - --0-1767529423-1079969052=:38198
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

trying again, as I didn't see any replies.
============
Everyone too busy?


Greetings all,
I'm trying to determine what gears and possible rear end to run in my
69 W-31.  Since I'm building this car to compete in Pure Stock Drag
racing, I can run any gear ratio and either the current Type O or I can
switch to a chevy 12 bolt.  The car is an automatic and will have a tight
convertor (say something in the 800-1200 stall range).  I will also be
running repro Goodyear Polyglas F70x14 tires on factory 14x6 SSII rims,
roughly 26" tall from what I understand.  The engine will have no
problem spinning to the 5700-5800 range.  Currently I have the factory Type
O with 3.91 posi.  From looking at similar setups that currently run in
Pure Stock, I need at least 4.10s.
==========
Define "need" ?

I really would like to find some  4.33, but lets assume I don't.
===========
Not likely, not impossible either, tried Brian Trick?


Would 4.56 (in a chevy 12 bolt) be too  steep or would 4.10s be the best 
choice.
The more I think about it, the
more I've decided to either a) run the current Type O, ONLY if I can
find some 4.33.  b) run the chevy 12 bolt with c-clip eliminators (an
allowed safety item) with 4.10 or 4.56.  I have a chevy 12 bolt that I
can build but I've also got a line on one already built with 4.56
gears.
Thoughts, criticisms, concerns?
Thanks,
Chris
grp442@yahoo.com
===============
Already built 4.56 wins that argument on convenience factor alone. Run the 
#'s and see if you will run out of RPM capability before the end of the 
qtr... and you will of course have to lightfoot the start to get as much 
traction as possible, and avoid wheelspin. If that does not work out, then 
you can look at lower numbered ratios or the O type unit. There will always 
be folks looking for ready built 4.56 C type posi.
- -----------------------
Chris Witt
1303 W. Miller Rd.
Lansing MI 48911

RocketScience442@hotmail.com

Cell 517-449-0432 weekends or short weekday calls or leave message.
Home 517-882-9747 thru 10-11pm MI time most days

_________________________________________________________________
Free up your inbox with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage. Multiple plans available. 
http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:47:06 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: thoughts on rear gears

Chris,

> The car is an automatic and will have a tight
> convertor (say something in the 800-1200 stall range).  I will also be
> running repro Goodyear Polyglas F70x14 tires on factory 14x6 SSII rims,
> roughly 26" tall from what I understand.  The engine will have no >
problem spinning to the 5700-5800 range.  Currently I have the factory Type
> O with 3.91 posi.  From looking at similar setups that currently run in
> Pure Stock, I need at least 4.10s.  I really would like to find some
> 4.33, but lets assume I don't.  Would 4.56 (in a chevy 12 bolt) be too
> steep or would 4.10s be the best choice.


The converter won't matter, because at the moment you're really concerned
with, crossing the finish line, the converter is a 1 to 1.

What does matter is the MPH and RPM you want the engine at while crossing
the finish line, assuming engine acceleration and power has put you at the
right spot for maximum engine RPM at 50 feet in front of the finish line,
the sweet spot.

With a 26" diameter tire and an engine at 5800, you will have this:

4.10 = 112 MPH
4.33 = 106 MPH
4.56 = 100 MPH

However, the only thing that counts is the ET. Now, if you had a way to
calculate at what point in the strip 1st to 2nd shift point and 2nd to 3rd
shift point would occur, you could find out at what RPM you might cross the
finish line. Otherwise, it's trial and error. My gut feeling is saying 4.33,
as long as the engine pulls strong through each gear and traction is
controlled.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:52:15 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: quadrabog help

Mike,


>  I thought this would be a performance increase.


It is, because you can now get a denser fuel charge. However, when one item
is changed, there are effects on other parameters which must be adjusted.
That's why the scientific method mandates only one variable during an
experiment, so the changes caused by the one variable can be tracked. It's
the exact same thing with your engine. You made one change, now other items
must be adjusted for it. Then the improvement will be realized.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:55:20 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: thoughts on rear gears

> I'm somewhat surprised at the super-tight converter you mentioned. Is that
> meant to prevent blowing away the tires off the line? I imagine there are
> other ways of doing it besides a huge bog for the first 100'.


With 4.10 to 4.56 gears and only a 26" tire, there won't be any bog from the
converter. It will launch clean.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:43:44 -0500
From: Robert Barry <rbarry@providence.edu>
Subject: Re: quadrabog help

At 11:39 AM 3/22/2004, you wrote:
>At Monday, 22 March 2004, you wrote:
> >Your intake is not being pre-heated any more. That means your
> >intake-charge is cooler (denser), so you need more fuel,
>
>No; he has TOO MUCH fuel; i.e., too rich now.
>
> >but also that the fuel your carb is dumpin in is not being
> >vaporized as well as it was before.
>
>True, he's getting raw fuel into the cylinders instead of atomized.
>
> >The two factors conspire to give you a lean bog on acceleration.
>
>This would create a RICH bog, not lean. The other telltale sign is
>removing the air cleaner reduces the bog. An air cleaner tends to
>enrichen the mixture slightly since it slightly restricts the amount
>of air. Anytime removing the air cleaner makes an engine run better,
>the engine's running rich to begin with.

Could be; I've usually found this kind of bog to be from too little fuel.

The carb is drawing the same volume of fuel; since not as much is being 
atomized, I'd say there's too little ATOMIZED fuel at the same time that 
the denser (colder) air needs more atomized fuel.

As for why it ran better w/o air-cleaner... it is possible that the 
air-cleaner provided less-turbulent tract for the carb to draw on.

Only his fine-tuning will tell.

[snip]
>Actually, that's going to make things difficult because after the
>engine thoroughly warms up, it'll tend to run leaner anyway. Blocking
>the exhaust crossovers is NEVER a good idea for a street engine that
>has to operate under a wide range of environmental conditions.

Down South it might work, but that would not be too pleasant to drive 
around here, where even a non-pre-heated air-cleaner is tough in cold weather.

>But more than likely, all he'll have to do is drive the car a cupla
>hours and the gaskets will burn through anyway  :o)))  Then he can
>go undo all the tuning mods he's been trying to get it to run better
>as it is  ;o\  ;o\  ;o\

True, true... :)


_______________________________________
Bob Barry  MailTo:rbarry@providence.edu
http://home.off-road.com/~wagoneer/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 14:01:18 -0500
From: Robert Barry <rbarry@providence.edu>
Subject: RE: quadrabog help

At 01:21 PM 3/22/2004, you wrote:
> From reading what Mondello had to say about what he called the dash pot, 
> I always called it a choke pull off,  I remembered that while the engine 
> was running I could freely open the secondaries.  This was never like 
> this before.

The choke pull-off has two function on our Oldsmobiles.

1. To crack open the choke once the engine is running.

2. To dampen the opening of the secondary plates.

If it's not connected, or if the diaphragm is blown out, then it won't 
dampen and it won't crack open the choke. It should be connected to full 
manifold vacuum; check that such vacuum is reaching the port.

You can change the rate of the dampening of the secondaries by drilling out 
the orifice in the vacuum nipple, but only on the plastic ones; the metal 
ones have an elbow which can't really be drilled to calibrate it differently.

This might be your main problem with bogging all along.


_______________________________________
Bob Barry  MailTo:rbarry@providence.edu
http://home.off-road.com/~wagoneer/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 12:08:31 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: 65 442 Question

Hmmmmmmmmmm. Why can't I remember ever running into one? I only remember the
3-speed HD Saginaws. Yeah, I know, approaching senility......

Out of curiosity, can you use the Hurst transmission I.D. page and point out
which Ford top-loader 3-speed looks like yours??? I'll have to talk to my
Ford expert.

http://mrgasket.com/pdf/hurst2001transid.pdf

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com



> Milton, I don't know what more I can tell you.  There are others who can
> "testify" that the heavy-duty 3-speed from '65-'69 is a Ford toploader,and
> does come with a Hurst shifter.  My '69 is one, and it is a numbers
matching
> one.  The VIN is stamped on the trans case, same as it would be if it were
a
> 4-speed.  And I know of 2 other numbers-matching ones.
> Due to the relative rarity, I don't think Hurst was that interested in
> covering *all* applications.
>
> Kurt mailto:wmachine@shubes.net
> http://wmachines.shubes.net
> '65 Jetstar 1 (4-speed)       '66 442 Sport Coupe (Tri-Carb, 4-speed)
> '67 442 Convertible (4-speed) '69 442 Convertible (3-speed manual)
> '92 Achieva SCX W-41(5-speed) '99 Expedition (no-speed)
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca
> > [mailto:oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca]On Behalf Of Infinite Space
> > Systems, Inc.
> > Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 8:56 PM
> > To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
> > Subject: Re: 65 442 Question
> >
> >
> > One of the List members referred to the Ford 3-speed in an Olds A-body
> > again. I don't recollect any Ford transmission installed at the factory
in
> > any GM passenger car from my work in the speed shop in the first
> > half of the
> > '70s. In the Hurst online catalog at
> > http://mrgasket.com/pdf/hurst2001manual.pdf , the heavy duty fully
> > sychronized 3-speed for all GM A-bodies is a Saginaw, exactly what I
> > remember. The Hurst transmission I.D. chart at
> > http://mrgasket.com/pdf/hurst2001transid.pdf clearly shows what a
> > Saginaw HD
> > 3-speed looks like. My 1985 Hurst catalog agrees exactly with the 2004
> > online catalog.
> >
> > Would somebody mind explaining what's going on? Hurst shows
> > nothing for any
> > Ford transmission in a GM passenger car. Therefore, a Hurst shifter for
a
> > Ford transmission in an Olds 442 doesn't make any sense, even
> > though factory
> > Hurst shifters were not the same nor as strong as aftermarket Hurst
> > shifters. The Saginaw HD *was* the 3-speed of choice in the '70s for
those
> > who wanted to run one in their GM A-body. The Saginaw 3-speed was
> > built like
> > a tank. There is a Muncie 3-speed that's not as strong, but is fully
> > synchronized, and a Chevy 3-speed in which first gear is not
synchronized.
> >
> > Milton Schick
> > 1964 442 Cutlass
> > imp@theriver.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #4827
*********************************
