
oldsmobile-digest       Tuesday, March 23 2004       Volume 01 : Number 4828



Re: quadrabog help
Re: quadrabog help
3sp a-bodys was Re: 65 442 Question
RE: 4-Core Radiator recommendation
Has anyone seen this
Re: Wanted: Pontiac 5 spoke wheel
RE: quadrabog help
RE: Has anyone seen this
Re: Fw: thoughts on rear gears
Re: Has anyone seen this
Re: Has anyone seen this
Re: Has anyone seen this
RE: quadrabog help
RE: 4-Core Radiator recommendation
Re: Has anyone seen this
Re: 4-Core Radiator Recommendation
Re: Has anyone seen this
Re: Has anyone seen this
RE: 65 442 Question
'50 "88" fastback f/s
Re: Has anyone seen this
Re: 65 442 Question
Re: Has anyone seen this
Re: Has anyone seen this
Re: Has anyone seen this
Re: 65 442 Question
Re: Has anyone seen this
Re:thoughts on rear gears
Re: '50 "88" fastback f/s
Re: Has anyone seen this
rolling Olds parts bin, was Has anyone seen this
Re: Has anyone seen this

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 12:15:17 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: quadrabog help

Okay. Then, what Chris Witt said.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Schlottman" <mschlott@spe.org>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 11:25 AM
Subject: RE: quadrabog help


> Milton, the choke is adjusted so that it barely if at all, chokes the
engine.  I just work the throttle a little to get it warmed up.
>
> Also, I did not put in the valley pan.  Just the gaskets.
>
>     mike
>
> Mike Schlottman
> Sr. Systems Administrator
> Society of Petroleum Engineers
> 222 Palisades Creek Drive
> Richardson, TX 75083
> 972-952-9382
>
>
>  > How does the choke on your Q-jet get heat to open properly?
>  > If it takes
>  > manifold heat, you now will not get sufficient heat to open
>  > the choke. When
>  > blocking the exhaust crossover passage in the intake
>  > manifold, the carb
>  > should either be equipped with an electric choke or a manual choke.
>  >
>  > Also, I assume you did *not* put a stock Turkey tray back
>  > on, to compliment
>  > the Mr. Gasket set.
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 12:52:10 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: quadrabog help

> This might be your main problem with bogging all along.


With an intake manifold running full hot all the time, with the fuel hot and
atomized, a malfunctioning choke pull-off could easily go unnoticed.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:57:16 -0800 (PST)
From: chris smetana <grp442@yahoo.com>
Subject: 3sp a-bodys was Re: 65 442 Question

- --0-1023556348-1079985436=:30644
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

One of the List members referred to the Ford 3-speed in an Olds A-body
again. I don't recollect any Ford transmission installed at the factory 
in
any GM passenger car from my work in the speed shop in the first half 
of the
'70s. In the Hurst online catalog at
- -------------------------------------------------
for what its worth, I have a 66 GTO hardtop and I sent in to Pontiac Historical Services for the copy of the buildsheet (Jim Mattison acquired all this information when it was going to be thrown away).  My Freemont, CA built car was originally equipped with a Ford Dearborn 3sp transmission.  Now granted I bought it as a rolling shell, but I've always heard (last 6-7 years say) Ford trannys were installed from the factory in some A-bodys.  I have a 65 M-20 from a wrecked GTO that will be going in it ..... someday.
 
Chris
grp442@yahoo.com

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
- --0-1023556348-1079985436=:30644
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<DIV>One of the List members referred to the Ford 3-speed in an Olds A-body<BR>again. I don't recollect any Ford transmission installed at the factory <BR>in<BR>any GM passenger car from my work in the speed shop in the first half <BR>of the<BR>'70s. In the Hurst online catalog at<BR>-------------------------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV>for what its worth, I have a 66 GTO hardtop and I sent in to Pontiac Historical Services for the copy of the buildsheet (Jim Mattison&nbsp;acquired all this information when it was going to be thrown away).&nbsp; My Freemont, CA built car was originally equipped with a Ford Dearborn 3sp transmission.&nbsp; Now granted&nbsp;I bought it as a&nbsp;rolling shell, but I've always heard&nbsp;(last 6-7 years say) Ford trannys were installed from the factory in some A-bodys.&nbsp; I have a 65 M-20 from a wrecked GTO&nbsp;that will be going in it ..... someday.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Chris</DIV>
<DIV><A href="mailto:grp442@yahoo.com">grp442@yahoo.com</A></DIV><p><font face=arial size=-1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
<a href="http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html"><b>Yahoo! Finance Tax Center</a></b> - File online. File on time.
- --0-1023556348-1079985436=:30644--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 13:43:54 -0700
From: "Schopen, Kenneth" <kenneth.schopen@medtronic.com>
Subject: RE: 4-Core Radiator recommendation

> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:59:02 -0600
> From: texas442@texas442.com
> Subject: 4-Core Radiator recommendation
> 
> I am upgrading to a 4-Core Radiator on my 1972 Cutlass (350) 
> to get ready for the Hot Summer in Texas.  Has anyone ordered 
> a new radiator recently?  If so, can you recommend a place to 
> order it from?  Thanks.
> 
> Ali
> Austin, Texas


I researched radiators at the end of last summer, and I discovered that the best one available was a re-core of my old radiator. The local shop removed the original 3 core that had three rows of 31 tubes, with 11 fins-per-inch, and replaced it with a high efficiency 4 core that had 4 rows of 34 (or maybe 36 - I forget) tubes with 14 fins-per-inch. The shop owner said that this high efficiency design was not available as a full radiator, but only as a re-core. The good thing about this is that I did not have to modify the radiator support to fit larger (thicker) end tanks, and I still have the original Harrison tanks. I'll have to wait and see how it does during our 112+ degree summer.

If you're dead set on a new radiator, check out www.radiatorbarn.com. They had the best price around for a new radiator for my wife's '93 5.0 Cougar XR7.

Kenneth
1971 Cutlass Supreme convertible
Phoenix, AZ

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:09:00 -0500
From: Gene Gatti <64f-85@comcast.net>
Subject: Has anyone seen this

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3668166870&category=10777

Are they Toronado wheels on a big '64 Olds?  Does it have an engine in 
the back?
Hmmm,
Gene

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:22:08 -0500
From: "ron fama" <77w30442@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Wanted: Pontiac 5 spoke wheel

I HAVE WHAT EVER WAS USED ON THE 77 PONTIAC LJ SERIES
RON
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Brown" <dbrown@mh1.uchospitals.edu>
To: "olds mail list" <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 11:28 AM
Subject: Wanted: Pontiac 5 spoke wheel


> I need one Pontiac 5 spoke snap in center, trim ringed, steel "Rally II" wheel, 
> and 2 trim rings. Any of you guys got one in decent shape for me? Maybe the 
> right rings? I don't need the wheel painted, just in good shape. If it has the 
> factory paint, even better. The torquey 403 got the best of the posi!
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 14:25:16 -0700
From: "Schopen, Kenneth" <kenneth.schopen@medtronic.com>
Subject: RE: quadrabog help

> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 09:32:52 -0600
> From: "Mike Schlottman" <mschlott@spe.org>
> Subject: RE: quadrabog help
> 
> I had not heard this before but it makes sense.  Has anyone 
> had experience with having to richen the secondary rods or 
> jets after blocking the intake crossover?  I'll have to see 
> if I have any smaller rods and give this a try.
> 
> Did I just ruin my performance by blocking the exhaust 
> crossover ports?  I thought this would be a performance increase.
> 
>     mike

I haven't retuned the carb yet, but I did notice a difference after I 
installed a Performer RPM intake with blocked off exhaust crossovers. 
One thing is it takes quite a while for the carb to heat up and start 
running properly at WOT - many days it's still not warmed up after my 
10 mile drive to work. I really hate not being able to get on it for 
the ENTIRE drive in. I anticipate things will be much better once summer 
hits with its 110º+ temperatures, though :)

If you want to get your choke working again, you can get an electric 
choke coil from the salvage yard. I got one, including the wire and 
end terminal, off a '82 Camaro 305 for $6, then wired it to the IGN 
terminal on the fuse box. It's not quite the same feel as the hot air 
choke, and I'm still playing around with it trying to get it so it 
works properly at various ambient temperatures.

Kenneth
1971 Cutlass Supreme convertible
Phoenix, AZ

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:24:54 -0500
From: "Jay Britt" <jbritt67@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Has anyone seen this

Maybe a FWD test platform for the Toro driveline?.

Jay

- -----Original Message-----
From: oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca
[mailto:oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca]On Behalf Of Gene Gatti
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 4:09 PM
To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: Has anyone seen this


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3668166870&category=10777

Are they Toronado wheels on a big '64 Olds?  Does it have an engine in
the back?
Hmmm,
Gene

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:53:13 EST
From: RPTW32@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fw: thoughts on rear gears

Chris 

we run 4.56 gears in Dave H's 68 W-31 with 4 SPD. 

Still even with the 4.56 set up had to wind up past 6000 on these 
small tires - motor makes power well up to 7000

different animal with an automatic though - you're on right track 
with the tight converter .

Rgds
Rob Thomas  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:10:33 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Has anyone seen this

That's not an "original factory photo." Someone put Toronado wheels on a '64
Olds big car that has all the emblems missing and the body is beat. Look
real close. Fenders and hood don't line up. There are irregularities in the
body panels. Another eBay rip off hoax. Someone took a black&white photo of
their '64 Olds with Toro wheels and is trying to pass it off as a factory
photo.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Gatti" <64f-85@comcast.net>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 2:09 PM
Subject: Has anyone seen this


>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3668166870&category=10777
>
> Are they Toronado wheels on a big '64 Olds?  Does it have an engine in
> the back?
> Hmmm,
> Gene
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 18:37:45 -0500
From: Gene Gatti <64f-85@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Has anyone seen this

>That's not an "original factory photo." Someone put Toronado wheels on a '64
>Olds big car that has all the emblems missing and the body is beat. Look
>
Hi Milton,
    That is probably right but I was looking at the photo again and 
something seems amiss. If this car just had Toronado wheels added then 
shouldn't the tires be further inboard? I'd think these wheels would 
need spacers to move the tire out to the correct position. I don't know 
why I am so interested in this picture.... it's just ummm, interesting I 
guess :-)
TTYL,
Gene

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 18:51:47 -0500
From: Robert Barry <rbarry@providence.edu>
Subject: Re: Has anyone seen this

At 06:10 PM 3/22/2004, you wrote:
>That's not an "original factory photo." Someone put Toronado wheels on a '64
>Olds big car that has all the emblems missing and the body is beat. Look
>real close. Fenders and hood don't line up. There are irregularities in the
>body panels. Another eBay rip off hoax. Someone took a black&white photo of
>their '64 Olds with Toro wheels and is trying to pass it off as a factory
>photo.

On the other-hand, look carefully under the rocker-panels; that looks like 
the 3/4-length Toronado subframe bolted to the bottom of the original frame 
of that '64 Olds.

I'd bet that's a test mule for the Toronado drivetrain, given that the 
original Olds hubs would not have the proper offset to work with those wheels.


_______________________________________
Bob Barry  MailTo:rbarry@providence.edu
http://home.off-road.com/~wagoneer/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 23:46:38 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: RE: quadrabog help

At 08:57 AM 3/22/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>If anybody'd like my qjet tuning spreadsheets, contact me privately. 
>
>I keyed a bunch of stuff a few years ago from Doug Roe's book in my quest
>for the ultimate qjet. It shows a few factory combinations as points of
>reference for tuning and also shows the square metering area of various
>rod/jet combinations. 
.......
>It's a big set of spreadsheets, but it contains a number of combinations
>designed to reduce the number of combinations you have to try to get the car
>running right. 
>
>Also it's in excel, so you'll need to have that application installed to use
>it.

Chris was kind enough to allow me to post part of the spreadsheet on my web
pages a cupla years ago at:
http://members.dandy.net/~k0xp/Oldsmobile/QJet/QjetTuningHelper.htm

Chris, have you updated it any? If so, I'd like to update the original file
that's downloadable from my page.

Thanks,
SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 00:33:48 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: RE: 4-Core Radiator recommendation

At 12:42 PM 3/22/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>Gentlemen,
>
>My past few Cutlii have all received 4-core Modine radiators purchased from
>a local vendor (who unfortunately, does not ship).
>These are reasonably priced, quality items w/ a lifetime warrantee.  I would
>highly recommend a Modine as replacement for your work out rad.  A quick
>Google search turned up a few online vendors.

AZ can also get them; the replacement HD radiator I bought for my fullsized
wagon was a Modine and was either $75 or $125, can't recall which. But it
came with the el cheapo plastic Red Chinese spigot in the bottom of the
tank  ;o\

SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 17:47:58 -0700
From: Oldsmagnet <oldsmagnet@oldsmagnet.com>
Subject: Re: Has anyone seen this

> I'd bet that's a test mule for the Toronado drivetrain, given that the 
> original Olds hubs would not have the proper offset to work with those 
> wheels.

Not to mention the good ol' 5@4-3/4 vs 5@5" issue...  The front fender 
opening ~looks~ odd to me, as if it may have been alterred somewhat, but I 
am ~not~ familiar enough with that year/model to make any positive 
statements.  I ~do~ like all the 'lines' in the pavement next to the 
car.....  ;-)

If anyone has some 'authentic' pics of older GM testbeds, they could 
compare plates.  I find it hard to believe they'd have actual tags on a 
prototype, but again, it's ~way~ before my time, so I can't say anything 
with any certainty there, either.

I wouldn't be suprised at a prototype being beat up, though, chances are 
they'd put the drivetrain in with somewhat less than surgical precision...

Very interesting, regardless.  Also interesting, I guess, is the mismatched 
tires front to back.  Don't know if that can tell anything, I'd guess bias 
ply on fronts, but can't say on back.

I'll be monitoring this thread, definately curious to see if any pertinant 
info pops up - another piece of history possibly uncoverred?

- -- 
=/   http://oldsmagnet.com   \===========/         Oldsmobile        \=
|  mailto:442@oldsmagnet.com  |=========|         1897 -- 2004        |
=\ Charley Buehner Sidney MT /===========\      Shot In The Back     /=

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 19:40:24 -0600
From: "Dan Bodine" <danbodine@prairieinet.net>
Subject: Re: 4-Core Radiator Recommendation

> I researched radiators at the end of last summer, and I discovered that
the best one available was a re-core of my old radiator.
> a high efficiency 4 core

I did the same thing as Kenneth did for my 70 W31 last year.  I replaced my
3-core with the 4 core high efficiency and kept my original tanks.  No
overheating noted.  However, about 4 years ago I put in a Modine 4 core
(NAPA) in the 71 442 (69 455 engine). It dropped right in with no problems
and never has come close to overheating.  Problem is even though it gets hot
and humid here in Illinois, both my cars do not have air conditioners.
Comparing the two radiators I believe the larger 4-core Modine does a better
job when sitting in traffic or a crawl which did happen at a show cruise
last year. More fluid available. If you want to stay as close to original go
with the re-coring.

Dan Bodine
70 W31 4 speed
71 442

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 01:39:03 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: Has anyone seen this

At 04:10 PM 3/22/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>That's not an "original factory photo." Someone put Toronado wheels on a '64
>Olds big car that has all the emblems missing and the body is beat. Look
>real close. Fenders and hood don't line up. There are irregularities in the
>body panels. Another eBay rip off hoax. Someone took a black&white photo of
>their '64 Olds with Toro wheels and is trying to pass it off as a factory
>photo.

Those look like Arizona plates, don't they, Milton?

Isn't that the F85 emblem in the middle of the grill????

And lookee how the trim running around the upper-outer edges of the
headlights doesn't match from side to side.

And I can't quite make it out: but that sure looks like Bart Simpson
hanging out of the passenger's side front turnsignal  ;o\  ;o\  ;o\

SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 01:42:09 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: Has anyone seen this

At 06:51 PM 3/22/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>On the other-hand, look carefully under the rocker-panels; that looks like 
>the 3/4-length Toronado subframe bolted to the bottom of the original frame 
>of that '64 Olds.
>
>I'd bet that's a test mule for the Toronado drivetrain, given that the 
>original Olds hubs would not have the proper offset to work with those
wheels.

I was gwan ask what those "frame rails" could be, sure looked odd.

SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 21:35:26 -0500
From: "Kurt" <wmachine@shubes.net>
Subject: RE: 65 442 Question

Better yet, here are pics of mine, (including the FoMoCo logo)2 from the
driver side, and one from the pass side:
http://www.wmachines.shubes.net/temp/postings1.html

Kurt mailto:wmachine@shubes.net
http://wmachines.shubes.net
'65 Jetstar 1 (4-speed)       '66 442 Sport Coupe (Tri-Carb, 4-speed)
'67 442 Convertible (4-speed) '69 442 Convertible (3-speed manual)
'92 Achieva SCX W-41(5-speed) '99 Expedition (no-speed)



> -----Original Message-----
> From: oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca
> [mailto:oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca]On Behalf Of Infinite Space
> Systems, Inc.
> Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 2:09 PM
> To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
> Subject: Re: 65 442 Question
>
>
> Hmmmmmmmmmm. Why can't I remember ever running into one? I only
> remember the
> 3-speed HD Saginaws. Yeah, I know, approaching senility......
>
> Out of curiosity, can you use the Hurst transmission I.D. page
> and point out
> which Ford top-loader 3-speed looks like yours??? I'll have to talk to my
> Ford expert.
>
> http://mrgasket.com/pdf/hurst2001transid.pdf
>
> Milton Schick
> 1964 442 Cutlass
> imp@theriver.com
>
>
>
> > Milton, I don't know what more I can tell you.  There are others who can
> > "testify" that the heavy-duty 3-speed from '65-'69 is a Ford
> toploader,and
> > does come with a Hurst shifter.  My '69 is one, and it is a numbers
> matching
> > one.  The VIN is stamped on the trans case, same as it would be
> if it were
> a
> > 4-speed.  And I know of 2 other numbers-matching ones.
> > Due to the relative rarity, I don't think Hurst was that interested in
> > covering *all* applications.
> >
> > Kurt mailto:wmachine@shubes.net
> > http://wmachines.shubes.net
> > '65 Jetstar 1 (4-speed)       '66 442 Sport Coupe (Tri-Carb, 4-speed)
> > '67 442 Convertible (4-speed) '69 442 Convertible (3-speed manual)
> > '92 Achieva SCX W-41(5-speed) '99 Expedition (no-speed)
> >

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 22:07:55 -0700
From: Joe & Gloria Varley <carcouple@cox.net>
Subject: '50 "88" fastback f/s

- --=====================_53459156==.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

In case anybody on the list knows of anyone interested, we are selling our 
'50 "88" fastback.  It is on ebay, item #    2468846348 .

Joe Varley
      AZ

- --=====================_53459156==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
In case anybody on the list knows of anyone interested, we are selling
our '50 &quot;88&quot; fastback.&nbsp; It is on ebay, item
#&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <font face="arial" size=2>2468846348</font>
.<br><br>
Joe Varley<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;  AZ<br>
</body>
</html>

- --=====================_53459156==.ALT--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 22:51:05 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Has anyone seen this

> If this car just had Toronado wheels added then
> shouldn't the tires be further inboard? I'd think these wheels would
> need spacers to move the tire out to the correct position.


Why? The Toro wheels should have the same type of offset as any other
factory wheel. The bolt pattern is 5 X 5. I don't recollect any special
wheel sizing for Toros. Don Hodges, a co-worker at the speedshop, had a '68
Toro with Ansen Sprints -- machined aluminum slotted wheels. No big deal
getting custom wheels. The stock Toro wheels should fit anything with a 5 X
5 wheel pattern.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 21:51:22 -0800
From: "Albert Penello" <albert@albertpenello.com>
Subject: Re: 65 442 Question

Yeah sorry about that. I forgot to delete the digest behind the post. I
realized it the moment I hit send...

- ------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 05:51:33 -0600
From: Kevin Wright <krwright@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: 65 442 Question

Think you could not include the entire digest next time, please?

krw
On Mar 21, 2004, at 1:31 PM, oldsmobile-digest wrote:

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 22:59:47 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Has anyone seen this

I'm skeptical.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Barry" <rbarry@providence.edu>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: Has anyone seen this


> At 06:10 PM 3/22/2004, you wrote:
> >That's not an "original factory photo." Someone put Toronado wheels on a
'64
> >Olds big car that has all the emblems missing and the body is beat. Look
> >real close. Fenders and hood don't line up. There are irregularities in
the
> >body panels. Another eBay rip off hoax. Someone took a black&white photo
of
> >their '64 Olds with Toro wheels and is trying to pass it off as a factory
> >photo.
>
> On the other-hand, look carefully under the rocker-panels; that looks like
> the 3/4-length Toronado subframe bolted to the bottom of the original
frame
> of that '64 Olds.
>
> I'd bet that's a test mule for the Toronado drivetrain, given that the
> original Olds hubs would not have the proper offset to work with those
wheels.
>
>
> _______________________________________
> Bob Barry  MailTo:rbarry@providence.edu
> http://home.off-road.com/~wagoneer/
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 23:04:28 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Has anyone seen this

> Not to mention the good ol' 5@4-3/4 vs 5@5" issue...


No. Olds big cars, including '64, have a 5 X 5 wheel pattern. A Toronado has
a 5 X 5 wheel pattern from '66 through at least the late '70s. Those wheels
are '66-'70 Toro wheels.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 23:09:15 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Has anyone seen this

Look at the rectangular opening in the center of the front bumper. The
center of the bumper has been hit and the opening is crooked. A test mule
vehicle would be kept in good shape, if for no other reason to make it
presentable to GM brass. That '64 Olds big car is **not** in good shape on
the exterior. Again, note the hood and fender misalignment. It's very
obvious.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 23:17:02 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: 65 442 Question

Kurt,

Okay, I see the FoMoCo logo and the edge of what looks like a top cover in
the second photo. It'd be nice if you could I.D. the trans with the Hurst
transmission chart. Then we'd know which version of Ford 3-speed they used.
There's a few different ones.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Kurt" <wmachine@shubes.net>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 7:35 PM
Subject: RE: 65 442 Question


> Better yet, here are pics of mine, (including the FoMoCo logo)2 from the
> driver side, and one from the pass side:
> http://www.wmachines.shubes.net/temp/postings1.html
>
> Kurt mailto:wmachine@shubes.net
> http://wmachines.shubes.net
> '65 Jetstar 1 (4-speed)       '66 442 Sport Coupe (Tri-Carb, 4-speed)
> '67 442 Convertible (4-speed) '69 442 Convertible (3-speed manual)
> '92 Achieva SCX W-41(5-speed) '99 Expedition (no-speed)
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca
> > [mailto:oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca]On Behalf Of Infinite Space
> > Systems, Inc.
> > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 2:09 PM
> > To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
> > Subject: Re: 65 442 Question
> >
> >
> > Hmmmmmmmmmm. Why can't I remember ever running into one? I only
> > remember the
> > 3-speed HD Saginaws. Yeah, I know, approaching senility......
> >
> > Out of curiosity, can you use the Hurst transmission I.D. page
> > and point out
> > which Ford top-loader 3-speed looks like yours??? I'll have to talk to
my
> > Ford expert.
> >
> > http://mrgasket.com/pdf/hurst2001transid.pdf
> >
> > Milton Schick
> > 1964 442 Cutlass
> > imp@theriver.com
> >
> >
> >
> > > Milton, I don't know what more I can tell you.  There are others who
can
> > > "testify" that the heavy-duty 3-speed from '65-'69 is a Ford
> > toploader,and
> > > does come with a Hurst shifter.  My '69 is one, and it is a numbers
> > matching
> > > one.  The VIN is stamped on the trans case, same as it would be
> > if it were
> > a
> > > 4-speed.  And I know of 2 other numbers-matching ones.
> > > Due to the relative rarity, I don't think Hurst was that interested in
> > > covering *all* applications.
> > >
> > > Kurt mailto:wmachine@shubes.net
> > > http://wmachines.shubes.net
> > > '65 Jetstar 1 (4-speed)       '66 442 Sport Coupe (Tri-Carb, 4-speed)
> > > '67 442 Convertible (4-speed) '69 442 Convertible (3-speed manual)
> > > '92 Achieva SCX W-41(5-speed) '99 Expedition (no-speed)
> > >

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 01:28:19 -0500
From: Robert Barry <rbarry@providence.edu>
Subject: Re: Has anyone seen this

At 10:51 PM 3/22/04 -0700, you wrote:
> > If this car just had Toronado wheels added then
> > shouldn't the tires be further inboard? I'd think these wheels would
> > need spacers to move the tire out to the correct position.
>
>
>Why? The Toro wheels should have the same type of offset as any other
>factory wheel. The bolt pattern is 5 X 5. I don't recollect any special
>wheel sizing for Toros. Don Hodges, a co-worker at the speedshop, had a '68
>Toro with Ansen Sprints -- machined aluminum slotted wheels. No big deal
>getting custom wheels. The stock Toro wheels should fit anything with a 5 X
>5 wheel pattern.

The Toronado had about a 5.5" backspacing on a 6" wide rim. That kind of 
offset would usually not even bolt on to an ordinary 5x5" hub, as it would 
rub against a control arm or a shock. I know I couldn't bolt my Toro wheels 
onto my '78 Electra, and the Electra wheels put the rubber halfway out the 
wheelwell on the Toro.

If he had a 5x5" pattern Ansen wheel on his Toro, then the wheels must have 
been sticking WAY out of the wheelwell, or have been very narrow. Or have a 
very deep backspacing.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 01:21:10 -0500
From: Cutlass7276@netscape.net (Randy Hermsen)
Subject: Re:thoughts on rear gears

Robert Barry <rbarry@providence.edu> wrote:

>At 10:24 AM 3/22/2004, you wrote:
>>I'm trying to determine what gears and possible rear end to run in my
>>69 W-31.  
>>>
Hi Barry
My experience with my 72 Cutlass 12 bolt chebbie(no c clip elim:O) 391s useing bfg 275/60/15 3500 stall man. valve body th400,car does 12.68@107.98,,  3610 pds car with a cast iron intake and street tires going threw the 1/4 mile @ 6000 rpm+ is a bit much rpm,i will keep 391s, as it is most a bracket car not street.
I look at a coupla brand motors as torque machs. useing lower rpms for power....i would like a taller tire.
Keeping the rpm a little lower means less stress,, less KABOOM!
I like the 342s in the 58.
Just my .02.
Randy(adding the additive)H.
Van.B.C.Can.
58 88
72 Cutlass(Bu*ck430)
72 Cutlass Convert

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 01:38:32 EST
From: HURSTOLDZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: '50 "88" fastback f/s

- -------------------------------1080023912
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 3/23/2004 12:14:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
carcouple@cox.net writes:
In case anybody on the list knows of anyone interested, we are selling our 
'50 "88" fastback.  It is on ebay, item #    2468846348 .
Hey all,

When I went out to Az last month I saw Joe's car in person,  IT IS ABSOLUTELY 
GORGEOUS!!!!     

Tell your friends about this one.

Vinny
68 H/O #511

- -------------------------------1080023912
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; cha=
rset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 3/23/2004 12:14:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, carcoup=
le@cox.net writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue=20=
2px solid"><FONT face=3DArial>In case anybody on the list knows of anyone in=
terested, we are selling our '50 "88" fastback.&nbsp; It is on ebay, item #&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=3D2>2468846348</FONT> .</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DI=
V>
<DIV>Hey all,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>When I went out to Az last month I saw Joe's car in person,&nbsp; IT IS=
 ABSOLUTELY GORGEOUS!!!!&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Tell your friends about this one.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Vinny</DIV>
<DIV>68 H/O #511</DIV></BODY></HTML>

- -------------------------------1080023912--

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 00:03:50 -0700
From: Oldsmagnet <oldsmagnet@oldsmagnet.com>
Subject: Re: Has anyone seen this

I've seen RWD wheels on newer Toros, but it seems to me my 5@5 Olds 15" 
stockers wouldn't even come close to bolting up to the '66 Toro front hub. 
  Don't remember taking much time to figure out ~why~ ... just swore a lot 
and shoved it off the trailer with two flat tires.  I'm near positive that 
you'd never get those Toro rims on a RWD hub tho.  Buddy put a newer style 
Toro/Eldo rim on his Monte (5x4-3/4) and it rubs the frame crossmember, can 
only get the lugs on a a few threads deep.  (He just needed to get that 
corner of the car off the ground LOL)

> No. Olds big cars, including '64, have a 5 X 5 wheel pattern. A Toronado has
> a 5 X 5 wheel pattern from '66 through at least the late '70s. Those wheels
> are '66-'70 Toro wheels.

True.  No argument there.  But - seems to me the F85 should be a 5x4-3/4 
pattern, at a bare minimum they'd have to change hubs and flanges just to 
put those wheels on that car.  -- OK, wait a second, maybe I'm smoking 
crack here - just re-read some of the other posts, the term "Olds big-car" 
keeps coming up a lot - I see what looks like an F85 emblem in the grille. 
    Guess if it's a big-car that'd throw the whole lug pattern bit out the 
window, wouldn't it...

Regardless, a bunch of stuff looks amiss.  And the more I look at it, that 
~does~ look like Bart Simpson....  But as far as prototypes looking 
professional for the top brass - I'm skeptical on that part myself.  Again, 
I can't speak directly to how things were ~back then~ with GM, but it would 
seem to me they'd scab something together first to prove ~to themselves~ it 
could be done, and then do a full-quality prototype for presentation 
purposes, once it's tested.  I drove and worked on one of the original 
Bonneville SSEi prototypes in the college days - it was ~far~ from 
presentable.  ECM in place of the back seat - complete with about fifty 
extra miles of computer harness to get it there.  Car was an utter mess. 
But it proved functionality, and shortly thereafter, the supercharger 
became a production option

Also conceivable that they put an experimental testbed into something 
'normal' for longer term testing, I've heard that's still in practice 
today, something to prove long-term stability without tipping their hands 
to the competition.  I remember reading in one of the car-rags about ford 
putting some experimental V10s in the Super Duty bodies, mighta been for 
the GTs???  Something to test the product out when they didn't have the 
correct body available.

I can find a dozen possible explanations for potential validity of the 
picture in question, but every single one of them is pure speculation.  I'd 
like to believe it's 'real' - but as Milton put it, I too am skeptical. 
But if true, like I said on an earlier post, it would be a great piece of 
Olds history to uncover.

BTW, has anybody sent this pic over to the Toro list for comment yet?

- -- 
=/   http://oldsmagnet.com   \===========/         Oldsmobile        \=
|  mailto:442@oldsmagnet.com  |=========|         1897 -- 2004        |
=\ Charley Buehner Sidney MT /===========\      Shot In The Back     /=

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 00:31:00 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: rolling Olds parts bin, was Has anyone seen this

Okay, inquiring minds must know.


> If he had a 5x5" pattern Ansen wheel on his Toro, then the wheels must
have
> been sticking WAY out of the wheelwell, or have been very narrow. Or have
a
> very deep backspacing.


Hmmmmm. That was to fully cover the disc brakes, right? Okay, since Ansen
made wheels with **any** offset, Donnie could have picked the right ones,
and I didn't pay any attention. He bought them from the speedshop.

However, someone just said something that I had ignored, in my effort to
knock eBay for something. The front fender wheel opening is 4-5" taller than
stock. The rear wheel opening is correct. I just went out and brought in my
'64 Olds product sales books. Also, the front grill and headlights came out
of a '64 F-85/Cutlass, complete. I completely missed that before.

Notice the way the headlight covers don't fit into the corners of the grill
area properly and fill the space all the way to both ends. You can see it
very well on the right side. But, the headlights and grill fit each other
exactly, because a F-85 is narrower than a big car, so there would be a gap
on each end.

The car is a rolling parts bin. I'll bet that it's **not** a GM test mule
for the Toronado, but I **will** bet someone wrecked their Toronado, had
some other Olds cars sitting around, pulled the Toro body off and installed
a '64 Olds big car body on the Toro frame, cut and remolded the front wheel
openings, used a '64 F-85 grill and headlights because the big car grill and
headlights were bad or wrecked or gone, and drove his Olds parts bin
everywhere.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 01:23:56 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Has anyone seen this

> True.  No argument there.  But - seems to me the F85 should be a 5x4-3/4
- -- OK, wait a second, maybe I'm smoking
> crack here - just re-read some of the other posts, the term "Olds big-car"
> keeps coming up a lot - I see what looks like an F85 emblem in the grille.
>     Guess if it's a big-car that'd throw the whole lug pattern bit out the
> window, wouldn't it...


See previous post about a rolling Olds parts bin.


> But as far as prototypes looking
> professional for the top brass - I'm skeptical on that part myself.
Again,
> I can't speak directly to how things were ~back then~ with GM, but it
would
> seem to me they'd scab something together first to prove ~to themselves~
it
> could be done, and then do a full-quality prototype for presentation
> purposes, once it's tested.


Except that a test mule for the Toronado would have been running around in
'63 or '64. The R&D engineers would have access to brand new parts off of
the assembly line that fit each other. This rolling Olds parts bin has
mismatched '64 small and big car parts on top of a Toro chassis. Olds R&D
wouldn't do it that way, because they wouldn't have to. New parts would be
available at their fingertips.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #4828
*********************************
