
oldsmobile-digest       Saturday, June 5 2004       Volume 01 : Number 4910



RE: Lock cylinder, or something else?
RE: Jesser's Classic Keys
Re: Block Web Breakage?
Something you don't see every day...or at least I don't...
Re: work on James Aiello's C heads has begun
Jesser's Classic Keys
Re: Jesser's Classic Keys
#118 of 500...
1967 DELMONT 88 Convertible
Interior
Re: Block Web Breakage?
Where's that from?
Re: Block Web Breakage?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 17:00:54 +0000
From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg_o@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Lock cylinder, or something else?

>>("It's a floor wax _and_ a dessert topping!" Grand prize to whoever can
>>remember where _that_ came from... :-)
>
>IT WAS A SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE SKIT. It was one of their own "commercials"!
>
>What do I win?

A can of New Shimmer, of course.  :-)

A slightly squint-inducing web page of the script for that commercial can be 
found here:

http://www.geocities.com/ladolcegilda/shimmer.html

(Okay, back to Olds topics now, I promise!)

- -- Andy

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 09:59:47 -0700
From: "Schopen, Kenneth" <kenneth.schopen@medtronic.com>
Subject: RE: Jesser's Classic Keys

Thanks for all the suggestions about re-keying, but I've already looked 
into it and came up blank. A good friend at work was a locksmith during 
college and helped with the door lock cylinders, but he was unable to do 
anything with the console lock cylinder. 

Coding the cylinder is not the problem. The issue is that the cover bezel 
on the console cylinder is much smaller than the standard door or trunk 
cylinder bezel, and apparently these small bezels are not a common item, 
so the local locksmith won't be able to help me. I asked specifically, and 
Jesser's said it would not be an issue for them, so apparently he has the 
proper bezel in stock.

If I am mistaken about the availability of the small diameter bezel 
for this cylinder, please contact me with information on where I can locate 
one (or two) and I can have my locksmith friend re-code the cylinder for me.

Kenneth
1971 Cutlass Supreme convertible
Phoenix, AZ

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 11:25:11 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Block Web Breakage?

> Milton, you said you could prevent the dreaded block breakage problem in
the BBO.
>
> You said its all in the crank!
>
> Please elaborate?


1) Use only a forged steel crank in a 455. No not even use the nodular iron
crank.

2) Use the lightest weight custom designed and made forged pistons you can
find and switch to a much lighter 0.927" diameter floating piston pin.

3) If Ron Fama is successful with his negotiations with the original owner
of CrankShaft Company and gets center counterweights added to his crank,
then have the 2 additional center counterweights added to the forged steel
crank. That will make the crank incredibly strong and extremely resistant to
flexing.

4) Limit the RPMs to 7000 and cam the engine and do the head work
accordingly.

The only reason an Olds 455 can pull the #3 main wed is that at very high
RPM, over 7000, the owner used the nodular iron crank. The crank will flex
in the center and beat out the #3 main bearing. If enough extreme force is
present, the #3 main web could be cracked. Only a forged steel crank will
prevent this disaster. That's why Olds used a forged steel crank in the
stationary industrial 455 engines and the 455 marine engine. Those engines
were likely to see much more extreme stress on the crank than a passenger
car engine. The standard forged steel 455 Olds crank worked perfectly in the
all aluminum CRO-SAL 455 CAN-AM engines, with their intercooled twin
turbo-chargers, while eating big block Chevies at 7500 RPM.

My forged steel crank in Thunder came from one of those engines. I then had
CrankShaft Company add their Dyna-Rev option with the 2 additional center
counterweights. That was in 1974. I wiped out my #3 main bearing and spun #2
and #4 by revving my previous nodular iron crank to 7500 every time and 8300
once. That didn't work. The forged steel crank fixed it.

There is no inherent reason to use a main girdle on a 455, if the crank
issue is addressed properly. With the right crank, the 2 bolt mains and the
interlaced design on the main webbing will hold everything in place. The
CRO-SAL aluminum 455s were 2 bolt mains.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 13:16:05 -0500
From: "John C. Ramsey" <jramsey77@earthlink.net>
Subject: Something you don't see every day...or at least I don't...

Hi All,

  I was just browsing around the web today and saw this.  I thought some of
you might get a kick out of it.  For a mere $32.5K it could be yours...

John Ramsey
'69 Cutlass 'S'

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 14:25:51 -0500
From: ilo@kwom.com
Subject: Re: work on James Aiello's C heads has begun

mmmmm.... my heads look great. 

James (Care-taker of Chris's w-31.... wonder now if I should charge 
him for the heated storage of his car.....
p.s. never tease the person who is housing your car....)Aiello



Since James is asleep at the wheel, I figured I would send the link of
the pics to the list so all can enjoy with James.  I'm sure he'll be
shocked and surprised to see these.  Enjoy!!!
 
http://community.webshots.com/photo/143689412/148730174GnOEvZ
 
http://community.webshots.com/photo/143689412/148730739cNQwLh
 
http://community.webshots.com/photo/143689412/148731295fAEcdU
 
http://community.webshots.com/photo/143689412/148731681OqOjCR
 
Chris (who's only interest in these heads is the fact he's James
'chauffeur' to drive him down and pick them up when his engine is done
because James' truck is out of commission) Smetana
 
grp442@yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 17:28:21 -0500
From: bcroe@juno.com
Subject: Jesser's Classic Keys

I never tried doing anything with internal locks.  I believe they have 
fewer "tumblers" .  Bruce (never locks the glove box) Roe

4 Jun 2004  "Schopen, Kenneth" <kenneth.schopen@medtronic.com> writes:
> A good friend at work was a locksmith during college and helped 
> with the door lock cylinders, but he was unable to do 
> anything with the console lock cylinder. 

> The issue is that the cover bezel on the console cylinder is much 
> smaller than the standard door or trunk cylinder bezel

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 17:51:16 -0700
From: Mark Mullins <mark@marineaviation.org>
Subject: Re: Jesser's Classic Keys

Intriguing idea, but I think I'd have a hard time with it with 1 Olds, 1 
Ford, and 1 BMW.

M

At 08:22 AM 6/4/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>  I have been able to buy unassembled cylinder kits from some
>  locksmiths quite cheaply.  Put them together myself.  They are
>  hard to use over.  A couple decades ago, I got enough to re do
>  most of my cars.  5 cars here, and I only need one set of keys.
>  It certainly simplified things with several drivers; no worrying
>  about switching around keys.     Bruce Roe

Mark Mullins
Tucson, Az

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 22:35:49 -0500
From: "Scott White" <scottwhite98@hotmail.com>
Subject: #118 of 500...

Hello list-

Yesterday my Mom took delivery of a Final 500 Alero!  Drove it right off the 
showroom floor even. Beeyooteeful car, though I thought that 170hp would 
push 3000lbs better than it did.  When it's idling it had a kind of growl 
that a 455 might be proud of. There are some interior flaws; the vents are 
"soft" and hard to maneuver and the rear defroster grounds are exposed and 
ugly as heck...other than that, it seems to be well engeneered.

A second note, if anyone needs service in Wisconsin, Ironside Olds in 
Wisconsin Rapids is the place to go.  One of the salesmen has a '70 442 
W-30, another has a Final 500 Aurora, and in the body shop across the way 
they had an '85 442 with only 52,000 on the ticker!   They say they sold 
regularly 200% of the # of cars a dealership of thier size was expected to 
sell in a year.   Great guys and a great dealership.


On digest mode
Scott White
93 Cutlass Supreme S (POS driver)
86 Cutlass Supreme Brougham (front end hurt)
70 Cutlass Supreme  (crying tears of neglect)
55 Super 88 (Needs work. Volunteers?)

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 01:54:55 EDT
From: HURSTOLDZ@aol.com
Subject: 1967 DELMONT 88 Convertible

- -------------------------------1086414895
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hey List,

by any chance is anyone interested in a 1967 Delmont 88 convert   98% rust 
free  Floors are solid,  trunk floor is solid   cowl is solid all orig  425 2bbl 
   Car has been garaged all its life     Second owner.  Red,   white top  red 
gut.

Newer paint    not show   but better than driver quality.

Top  needs  fixing  under the rear glass. 

Some minor dings.

Bumpers are nice



Vinny
68  H/O

- -------------------------------1086414895
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; cha=
rset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>Hey List,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>by any chance is anyone interested in a 1967 Delmont 88 convert&nbsp;&n=
bsp; 98% rust free&nbsp;&nbsp;Floors are solid,&nbsp; trunk floor is solid&n=
bsp;&nbsp; cowl is solid&nbsp;all orig&nbsp; 425 2bbl&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Car=20=
has been garaged all its life&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Second owner.&nbsp; Re=
d,&nbsp; &nbsp;white top&nbsp; red gut.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Newer paint&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; not show&nbsp;&nbsp; but better than driv=
er quality.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Top&nbsp; needs&nbsp; fixing&nbsp; under the rear glass. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Some minor dings.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Bumpers are nice</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Vinny</DIV>
<DIV>68&nbsp; H/O</DIV></BODY></HTML>

- -------------------------------1086414895--

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 08:54:33 -0400
From: "ftfunnyfarm" <ftfunnyfarm@voyager.net>
Subject: Interior

Well all......I have almost got everything I need to redo my Cutty's
interior! Well most of it anyway...wont be doing the doors this year....not
enough money!

 I now have the seat covers,carpet,sound deadener,pillars and have the
headliner and sail panals ordered(awaiting thier arriveal!). I will be
taking pics of the process and will post them when done. I am taking her to
the body shop this week...I hope! and have the windshield replaced and some
minor work done in that area. Than I'll do the interior. Figured I'd what to
do the interior till that is done so no damage will come to the new
interior!

I am sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Excited! Been two yrs coming but will be
well worth the wait when done! wow...that was alot of W's....LOL

I'll be saving my money now so I can replace the front bumper...that will be
next yr....dont think the car will ever be a show winner...but thats ok with
me...she is finally mine again and back were she belongs and will be here
forever! I love slipping behind the wheel and cruzzin......wow...what a
rush...I know you all know how I feel....words just cant explain that
feeling.....

Well better get...have a great weekend all.....

Tami

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 08:14:02 -0500
From: "Allen Schwartz" <mycj@tds.net>
Subject: Re: Block Web Breakage?

This is not me talking Milton butit is something I heard from an olds race
team.
  They will only run the nodular cranks. They say they sell every forged
crank they get in.  There claim is that the olds 455 forged crank was made
from inferior steel and they have seen too many of them fail.
  I only know this because I mentioned to them that I was looking for a
forged unit.

  That main girdle is mainly for the 403 etc I would imagine but it of
course works on all the olds blocks. I was thinking it might be good for a
few extra rpms for us nodular crank guys though.

Allen Schwartz
A&L Enterprises
mycj@tds.net
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: Block Web Breakage?


> > Milton, you said you could prevent the dreaded block breakage problem in
> the BBO.
> >
> > You said its all in the crank!
> >
> > Please elaborate?
>
>
> 1) Use only a forged steel crank in a 455. No not even use the nodular
iron
> crank.
>
> 2) Use the lightest weight custom designed and made forged pistons you can
> find and switch to a much lighter 0.927" diameter floating piston pin.
>
> 3) If Ron Fama is successful with his negotiations with the original owner
> of CrankShaft Company and gets center counterweights added to his crank,
> then have the 2 additional center counterweights added to the forged steel
> crank. That will make the crank incredibly strong and extremely resistant
to
> flexing.
>
> 4) Limit the RPMs to 7000 and cam the engine and do the head work
> accordingly.
>
> The only reason an Olds 455 can pull the #3 main wed is that at very high
> RPM, over 7000, the owner used the nodular iron crank. The crank will flex
> in the center and beat out the #3 main bearing. If enough extreme force is
> present, the #3 main web could be cracked. Only a forged steel crank will
> prevent this disaster. That's why Olds used a forged steel crank in the
> stationary industrial 455 engines and the 455 marine engine. Those engines
> were likely to see much more extreme stress on the crank than a passenger
> car engine. The standard forged steel 455 Olds crank worked perfectly in
the
> all aluminum CRO-SAL 455 CAN-AM engines, with their intercooled twin
> turbo-chargers, while eating big block Chevies at 7500 RPM.
>
> My forged steel crank in Thunder came from one of those engines. I then
had
> CrankShaft Company add their Dyna-Rev option with the 2 additional center
> counterweights. That was in 1974. I wiped out my #3 main bearing and spun
#2
> and #4 by revving my previous nodular iron crank to 7500 every time and
8300
> once. That didn't work. The forged steel crank fixed it.
>
> There is no inherent reason to use a main girdle on a 455, if the crank
> issue is addressed properly. With the right crank, the 2 bolt mains and
the
> interlaced design on the main webbing will hold everything in place. The
> CRO-SAL aluminum 455s were 2 bolt mains.
>
> Milton Schick
> 1964 442 Cutlass
> imp@theriver.com
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 10:55:45 -0400
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: Where's that from?

("It's a floor wax _and_ a dessert topping!" Grand prize to whoever can
remember where _that_ came from... :-)

- - -- Andy
==============
Sounds like Gilda Radner on SNL

"It's like exercising while you're getting clean... ONLY BETTER!"
- ----------------------
Chris Witt
1303 W. Miller Rd.
Lansing MI 48911

RocketScience442@hotmail.com

Cell 517-449-0432 weekends or short weekday calls or leave message.
Home 517-882-9747 thru 10-11pm MI time most days

_________________________________________________________________
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http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 10:39:35 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Block Web Breakage?

Allen,


> This is not me talking Milton butit is something I heard from an olds race
> team.


I understand. There's also way too many urban legends and old wife's tales
about Olds out there.


>   They will only run the nodular cranks. They say they sell every forged
> crank they get in.  There claim is that the olds 455 forged crank was made
> from inferior steel and they have seen too many of them fail.


Then ask them why ***all*** Olds industrial engines and ***all*** Olds
marine engines came with forged steel cranks. Anyone on this List who knows
boat dynamics and boat engines ***knows*** that sudden water drag on a boat
hull at WOT can and will snap a crankshaft in two, unless that crankshaft is
forged steel. All engines for boats, including the outboards, have forged
steel cranks.

The same applies to the power demands on an industrial engine. Most Olds
industrial engines were used as stationary engines for well pumps and
irrigation. I have some familiarity with the way well pump systems work, run
off electrical power. I will assume a well pump run by an internal
combustion engine will work exactly the same way.

The well pump electric motor or internal combustion engine only runs when
the water pressure in the holding tank drops below a certain level. The
valve is opened for water flow, for whatever purpose, and the flow is fed by
the pressure built up in the holding tank by the pump. As the pressure drops
to a pre-set minimum level, a pressure switch will activate when that
minimum level is reached, switching on whichever power source runs the well
pump. When the well pump is activated, it comes on at full power. For an
internal combustion engine, that means full power at maximum torque RPM, for
that is what lifts water from depths as little as 50 feet to as much as 1000
feet. Our well in Tucson is at 400 feet, run by a 440 volt 5 HP submerged
electric motor located at 200 feet down, and it pushes. The internal
combustion engine must pull from ground level, which is much harder. The
point is, pulling water at anywhere from 30 to 300+ gallons per minute from
whatever depth at a sudden maximum torque RPM is a tremendous shock to the
crankshaft. Only a forged steel crank can take that shock.

When Olds brought out the 425 engine, they immediately began to market it to
the industrial and marine community. They were successful, but when the 455
was released, Olds took over the industrial market almost overnight at
nearly 100%. That was how good the Olds industrial 455 was. That engine was
usually run on propane. The Olds industrial engine was marketed from 1968
into sometime in the early '80s, long after those engine were no longer
available in cars. The marine market still was influenced by Chevy, and to a
lesser extent by Ford. Olds probably only captured about 1/3 of the marine
market. (Chevy at 1/2 and Ford at 1/6.)

The 455 Olds engine also found its way into many motor homes. 455s slated
for motor home use also had forged steel cranks, for all of the same reasons
listed above and below.

Then there is all of the Olds R&D eperimental engines, including the 4 valve
Hemi, and the CRO-SAL all aluminum race engines. All of the 455 based
engines used that exact same forged steel crank, the same forged steel crank
that wound up in a very few 2bbl 455s and a very few Toronadoes in early
1968. The CRO-SAL race team would pressure 494 and 518 big block Chevy
drivers coming out of a turn leading to an appropriate straight-a-way and
accelerate ahead of them, revving to 7500 on the downshift and winding up to
7500 in direct and holding it there. The Chevies couldn't rev higher than
6800 for a 494 and 6500 for a 518, or risk losing the main bearings. The
Chevy powered teams had to rely on different final gear ratio to catch the
CRO-SALs, but that hurt their final torque mulitiplication and, thus, their
acceleration capability. The CRO-SAL drivers knew all of this and played
their engine adavntage to the hilt. Several Chevy herders where tricked by
CRO-SAL drivers into over-revving their 494s or 518s and blowing their
engines.


>   I only know this because I mentioned to them that I was looking for a
> forged unit.


Does that mean they will sell forged steel 455 cranks for a cheap price, or
will they milk the price to get the maximum amount of money for a forged
steel 455 crank, believing the purchaser is a sucker???


>   That main girdle is mainly for the 403 etc I would imagine but it of
> course works on all the olds blocks. I was thinking it might be good for a
> few extra rpms for us nodular crank guys though.


I thought there was a main girdle someone made for a 455. I'm positive there
is a 455 4-bolt main kit to put on #s 2, 3, and 4 main bearings. I've seen
one such kit that uses alloy aluminum main bearing caps for the kit.

Thought question = What happens to main bearing clearances at engine
operating temperatures when one has a cast iron block and aluminum main
caps?

Answer = The main bearing bore on the bottom side, next to the aluminum cap,
distorts and goes egg shaped, decreasing the clearance on the bottom of the
crank main journal, at the most dangerous spot that could be! Why? Because
aluminum expands much more than cast iron. Much more.

Also, for anyone buying a main girdle kit, make sure the manufacturer made
it out of steel, ***not*** aluminum, for exactly the same reason.
Differential metal expansion at the wrong time in the wrong place can
quickly ruin you.

For using a nodular iron crank, when there is no other choice, grind the
crank undersize with extra radius allowed in the main and rod journal
fillets. 0.010" undersize is usually enough. That will decrease the fillet
angle and make the crank stronger. Cross-drill the mains to get plenty of
oil while using full grooved main bearings. Use the lightest custom designed
forged piston you can find to take all unneeded reciprocating weight off of
the crank. That includes using a lighter weight, but strong enough, piston
pin. Then, build the engine for maximum power at 5700 with a 6000 rev limit.
That combination with a nodular iron crank should last forever. If you want
to rev higher, you will need a forged steel crank. There's no other reliable
way around it.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #4910
*********************************
