
oldsmobile-digest        Sunday, July 18 2004        Volume 01 : Number 4955



RE: Autozone $29.99 Olds water pump (WP-455HD & D130-1260P) - the question is answered...
RE: '67 Supreme convert pics
oil smoke on startup
Re: '67 Supreme convert pics
Re: Frod 289 Valve Seals???
Re: oil smoke on startup
New header gasket set w/ hardware from Mr Gasket
Re: '67 Supreme convert pics
Re: oil smoke on startup
Re: '67 Supreme convert pics
Re: Yellow Interior, 67 Cutlass
Re: Frod 289 Valve Seals???
Re: oil smoke on startup
Re: oil smoke on startup
Re: oil smoke on startup
Re: oil smoke on startup
Re: Frod 289 Valve Seals???
Re: '67 Supreme convert pics
Re: Frod 289 Valve Seals???
Re: oil smoke on startup
Re: oil smoke on startup
horn cap p/n 399332
Re: Frod 289 Valve Seals???
Re: '98 Aurora problem
Re: oil smoke on startup

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 00:21:01 +0000
From: ecker567@comcast.net
Subject: RE: Autozone $29.99 Olds water pump (WP-455HD & D130-1260P) - the question is answered...

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Well, I returned the ASC cast iron pumps today to the local AutoZone - at first the counter person seemed clueless but when I showed him the back of the invoice showing return instructions, as well as the printout of the email from their customer service dept indicating I could return it at the local store, he quickly processed the return and credited my credit card.  I was in and out in less than 15 minutes - not too horrible.

Michael Ecker
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<html><body>
<P>Well, I returned the ASC cast iron pumps today to the local AutoZone - at first the counter person seemed clueless but when I showed him the back of the invoice showing return instructions, as well as the printout of the email from their customer service dept indicating I could return it at the local store, he quickly processed the return and credited my credit card.&nbsp; I was in and out in less than 15 minutes - not too horrible.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>Michael Ecker</P></body></html>


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:20:17 -0700
From: "67Oldz" <67@oldsmobile.net>
Subject: RE: '67 Supreme convert pics

Very nice.
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca 
> [mailto:oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca] On Behalf Of Joe & 
> Gloria Varley
> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 5:04 PM
> To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
> Subject: '67 Supreme convert pics
> 
> 
> >Vinny, and anybody else that may be interested---We have pics of the 
> >'67 Cutlass Supreme I just finished up.  The link
> >is:         http://www.members.cox.net/varleyequipment/pics2.html
> 
> 
> Joe Varley
>       AZ
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:34:01 -0500
From: "Allen Schwartz" <mycj@tds.net>
Subject: oil smoke on startup

Is it pretty normal to get some blue oil smoke upon starting when the motor
only has a few miles on it still? I think there is about 200 miles mabey 50
more. When my car sits awhile it will blow some smoke when I start it up. It
has total seal chromemoly rings so I'm hoping they just hevn't sealed yet
but I thought oil on starting was from valve seals and these are brand new
edelbrock heads
Allen Schwartz
A&L Enterprises
mycj@tds.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 00:55:34 EDT
From: HURSTOLDZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: '67 Supreme convert pics

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Hey  Joe,


It looks great!

Great job  buddy!

Vinny

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; cha=
rset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>Hey&nbsp; Joe,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It looks great!</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Great job&nbsp; buddy!</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Vinny</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 23:16:26 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Frod 289 Valve Seals???

Steve,

The correct 289 Ford valve seal is 1/2" tall and 3/4" in outside diameter. I
just measured one, just for you.

Milton
_____________

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Harrison" <k0xp@dandy.net>
To: <oldsgmail@spots.ab.ca>; <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 12:44 PM
Subject: Frod 289 Valve Seals???


> So, I'm renewing the valve cover seals on my '88 307 today. It occurs to
me
> that maybe, I could even change the valve seals fairly quickly.... if I
had
> them.
>
> So I go to NAPA (I rather doubt either AZ or Advance is gonna have valve
> seals for a '64-'68 Frod engine, eh) and lo and behold..... turns out
> there's different-length umbrellas for the 289: a short one for the
exhaust
> valves that looks about 1/2" long, and a longer one for the intake valves
> that's much longer. Seems to me the exhaust ones were what folks have been
> using but can't rember. Either way, this particular NAPA only had one set
> (eight) of either intake or exhaust seals.
>
> Anyone know which to use? Anyone actually got a PN? The PNs I got off the
> boxes are SS 13364-1 for the long intakes and SS 72562 for the short
> exhaust seals. I forgot to note but believe these were Felpro.
>
> Thanks,
> SteveH
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 23:52:43 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: oil smoke on startup

> Is it pretty normal to get some blue oil smoke upon starting when the
motor
> only has a few miles on it still? I think there is about 200 miles mabey
50
> more. When my car sits awhile it will blow some smoke when I start it up.
It
> has total seal chromemoly rings so I'm hoping they just hevn't sealed yet


Allen, you said chromemoly rings. Your rings must be either moly rings, as
in molybdenum plasma coated rings, or chrome rings, as in chromium plasma
coated rings. Molybdenum is a metal. They aren't chromemoly, which is a
family of ultra-tough alloy steels containing high concentrations of
chromium and other high-strength additive metals. Moly rings should fully
seat within 50 miles. Chrome rings will take around 1000 miles to seat.


> but I thought oil on starting was from valve seals and these are brand new
> edelbrock heads.


It could be either rings that aren't seated yet or leaking valve seals. It
could also be dependent on the piston to wall clearance set in your cylinder
bores, or it could be the type of piston used.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 06:21:15 -0400
From: Michael Ecker <ecker567@comcast.net>
Subject: New header gasket set w/ hardware from Mr Gasket

Just saw the ad for this, part# 7664G - comes with Ultra-Seal 
head-to-flange gaskets, Ultra-Seal collector gaskets, header-to-head 
bolts and collector bolts & nuts.  Just the ticket for someone who 
bought used headers without all of this, or someone (like me) that has 
headers kicking around for a while waiting for an application but no 
longer knows where all the little pieces went....  do not see the parts 
on Summit or Jegs website but I'm sure you could call them with the 
part# and get a price.

- -- 
Michael Ecker
Lehigh Acres, Florida
ecker567@comcast.net

1978 Cutlass Supreme - $500 purchase, being slowly fixed up
   (in line for V6-to-403 swap soon, and maybe 200-4R and gears...)

1979 Cutlass Supreme Brougham - becoming a circle track car
   (bought without title, had Certificate of Destruction so can never
    be re-registered, but will uphold the Oldsmobile name with honor)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:47:13 -0300 (ADT)
From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: '67 Supreme convert pics

Wow, Joe, that is one beautiful car. I love the colors. Why is it that you
always seem to have cars that I would give my right arm for? ;-)

Question: tell me about that steering wheel. It doesn't look like a '67
item to me, although it certainly could be. Is it aftermarket? My '68
wheel has some cracks and though I'd like to get a proper '68 woodgrain
sprt wheel, I have yet to find one in decent condition for anything close
to a reasonable price. If your style is available aftermarket, that might
be an option.

Greg Beaulieu    ab348@chebucto.ns.ca    Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada
          Olds List Admin Info: http://oldslist.oldsgmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 07:51:29 -0500
From: "Allen Schwartz" <mycj@tds.net>
Subject: Re: oil smoke on startup

I stand corrected, they are chrome rings

I would have to look up what the piston  to cylender tollerences were set at
but they are what you recomended to me.
Allen Schwartz
A&L Enterprises
mycj@tds.net
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 1:52 AM
Subject: Re: oil smoke on startup


> > Is it pretty normal to get some blue oil smoke upon starting when the
> motor
> > only has a few miles on it still? I think there is about 200 miles mabey
> 50
> > more. When my car sits awhile it will blow some smoke when I start it
up.
> It
> > has total seal chromemoly rings so I'm hoping they just hevn't sealed
yet
>
>
> Allen, you said chromemoly rings. Your rings must be either moly rings, as
> in molybdenum plasma coated rings, or chrome rings, as in chromium plasma
> coated rings. Molybdenum is a metal. They aren't chromemoly, which is a
> family of ultra-tough alloy steels containing high concentrations of
> chromium and other high-strength additive metals. Moly rings should fully
> seat within 50 miles. Chrome rings will take around 1000 miles to seat.
>
>
> > but I thought oil on starting was from valve seals and these are brand
new
> > edelbrock heads.
>
>
> It could be either rings that aren't seated yet or leaking valve seals. It
> could also be dependent on the piston to wall clearance set in your
cylinder
> bores, or it could be the type of piston used.
>
> Milton Schick
> 1964 442 Cutlass
> imp@theriver.com
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:09:07 -0400
From: "ftfunnyfarm" <ftfunnyfarm@voyager.net>
Subject: Re: '67 Supreme convert pics

Joe.....Very nice ride.....Very nice!!!!!

Tami

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:39:47 EDT
From: NUOLDSMAN@aol.com
Subject: Re: Yellow Interior, 67 Cutlass

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In a message dated 7/17/04 5:09:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time,=20
pjkell@earthlink.net
 writes:

> A while back I was the one who offered up some experience I had finding=20
> yellow interior materials for a 67 cutlass.  The below info is now about=20
> a year old so things/prices may have changed.

Hi Paul,
      Thank you!  This is the information that I was seeking.  I will forwar=
d=20
it to the gentleman that called me looking for the vinyl. =20

>>>forwarded from Chris Fair" <cfair@att.net>
They remade the panels and even found repro aluminum reflective foil.=20

I had the seats sewn locally from materials they supplied.=A0 All in all a
much better restoration than my 66 98 convertible.=20

I was very happy with SMS.=20
Thanks Chris!  I will forward this to the gentleman as well.  Hopefully ther=
e=20
will be another yellow interiored car running around St. Louis in the near=20
future.  Thanks again,
Steve D

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 7/17/04 5:09:42=20=
PM Pacific Daylight Time, pjkell@earthlink.net<BR>
 writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">A while back I was the one who=20=
offered up some experience I had finding <BR>
yellow interior materials for a 67 cutlass.&nbsp; The below info is now abou=
t <BR>
a year old so things/prices may have changed.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Hi Paul,<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thank you!&nbsp; This is the information that=
 I was seeking.&nbsp; I will forward it to the gentleman that called me look=
ing for the vinyl.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;forwarded from Chris Fair" &lt;cfair@att.net&gt;<BR>
They remade the panels and even found repro aluminum reflective foil. <BR>
<BR>
I had the seats sewn locally from materials they supplied.=A0 All in all a<B=
R>
much better restoration than my 66 98 convertible. <BR>
<BR>
I was very happy with SMS. <BR>
Thanks Chris!&nbsp; I will forward this to the gentleman as well.&nbsp; Hope=
fully there will be another yellow interiored car running around St. Louis i=
n the near future.&nbsp; Thanks again,<BR>
Steve D</FONT></HTML>

- --part1_da.ee4356f.2e2bd7a3_boundary--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:21:09 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: Frod 289 Valve Seals???

At 11:16 PM 7/17/2004 -0700, Infinite Space Systems, Inc. wrote:
>Steve,
>
>The correct 289 Ford valve seal is 1/2" tall and 3/4" in outside diameter. I
>just measured one, just for you.
>
>Milton

Yer too kind, Milton  :o))))) Those are apparently the exhaust seals; the
intakes are somewhat longer. But the intakes appear as if they will also
fit over the machined spring tower. Doesn't matter now as I bought 16 of
the exhaust seals, have one set in place, just removed all the other
rockers/bridges and soaking em in carb cleaner.

On the one cylinder I've done, I found a tiny piece of galled metal sliver
sticking out of the side of the top of the rocker's end of the pushrod,
which has worn a small spot in the rocker's pushrod ball seat. This
prevents the pushrod from rotating, of course. I'm gonna get some crocus
cloth and smooth that spot off. From rotating some the other pushrods, I
can tell others will also have this sliver on them.

The aluminum bridge pivot seats on the first cylinder have light galling;
not enough to be super-concerned but enough to wish I could replace all the
rockers/bridges this weekend. Unfortunately, nobody around here has them in
stock.... but if it rains in awhile as it's forecast, maybe I'll just order
them anyhow to install later this week. There's myriad choices of them:
Sealed Power, Clevite, etc.

INCREDIBLE.....  Checking prices, I find the below, all SP parts:

                        Rock Auto   Advance    Pick Pro Parts
Rocker Arm Assy R882      $4.69      $12.29     $5.04
Rocket Arm R882A          $3.39      $4.42      $3.28
Pivot Arm MR1903          $1.84      $2.79      $2.02

What's more, Rock lists this:
Rocker Arm Assy R882B, Carton of 32, 2 rocker arms and 1-pivot bridge $4.85

That's gotta be a TYPO!!!!  =========8-O  $4.85 for enough brand new rocker
arms and pivot bridges for FOUR engines?????  =====================8-O

Anyway..... looks like I'll be money ahead if I just go ahead and spend
today cleaning things up and order new stuffs from Rock. I bet I won't get
them until Wednesday at the earliest, though.

HMMM.... how bout new pushrods....
                                  Rock Auto   Advance    Pick Pro Parts
Pushrod RP3244 1985-1990 Olds V8   $1.82       $3.09        $1.76

Again, Rock has a carton of 100, BRP3244, for $1.69. Highly likely that's
the quantity price in 100's. That doesn't work for their carton of 32 since
$4.85 in quantity is more than the $4.69 in single quantities; something's
wrong at Rock  ;o)

OK: so replacing all the rockers/pivot bridges and pushrods with parts from
Rock will cost me about $37.52 + $29.12 = $66.64, not too bad. I really
can't afford it right now but....

What's inneresting is that my '88 fullsized wagon has somewhere around 235K
miles as best I can estimate from PO records plus some 60K I've put on it
since buying it in '99. It's the original block as shown by the VIN
derivative characters on the engine pad. I can guarantee that the 307 had
not seen any real service for AT LEAST 50K miles before I got it; all the
vacuum hoses were dried, some split; and the plugs were the very dickens to
get out, having enough carbon on the ends of the threads that some appeared
to be seized. A year after I bought it, I had to change the intake gasket
and found the lifter gallery to be cleaner than I expected... some gunk
around the center four cylinder walls but very little elsewhere in the
lifter gallery.

But when I removed the valve covers yesterday, I found cork valve cover
gaskets. The factory did not use valve cover gaskets on these roller-cammed
307s and I don't believe even on the earlier flat tappet 307s. The tops of
the heads are CLEAN, no gunk whatsoever, just puddles of oil here and
there. No metallic particles found anywhere (little pools of gray
dirt-appearing material). Oil return holes are clear and open (as they were
in the lifter gallery two years ago). But the insides of the valve covers
do have dried old-oil/varnish caked on them, as do the rockers, pushrods,
pivot bridges and valve springs/retainers. It appears that someone did at
least install valve cover gaskets, and may have also done a valve job but
didn't bother to clean the varnish/dried oil cake off the valve train parts.

I've no idea what oil the PO used but it obviously was good enough not to
leave wax residue in the engine. I've been using Rotella-T 15W-40 for the
last 50K miles or more and that stays fairly clear until it gets to around
1500 to 2000 miles, then it turns black. By then, it's also stinking of
fuel. I change oil between 2800-4000 miles depending on the weather and
available time.

For the last year or so, the engine has given off great big clouds of gray
oil smoke when it's started hot... not always but more often than not. It
continues to smoke for a few seconds then I never see another puff. Can't
tell whether it smokes when I go WOT, though. So I've known I'd have to
change the valve seals sooner or later to continue to pass emissions. I
started out just to renew the valve cover seals yesterday, though, and
this's turned into yet another mitaswell  ;o\  ;o\  ;o\

SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:24:14 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: oil smoke on startup

At 11:52 PM 7/17/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>Allen, you said chromemoly rings. Your rings must be either moly rings, as
>in molybdenum plasma coated rings, or chrome rings, as in chromium plasma
>coated rings.

Actually, some ring manufacturers ARE describing their rings as
"chrome-moly". I believe these are standard molybdenum rings that are
chrome-plated for wear resistance. They're intended for street engines, not
race engines. IIRC, you can find some listings for chrome-moly rings in
Summit.

>It could be either rings that aren't seated yet or leaking valve seals. It
>could also be dependent on the piston to wall clearance set in your cylinder
>bores, or it could be the type of piston used.

It could be that those Edulbrook idjits used the incorrect valve seals when
they assembled the heads. OR... if Allen assembled or had the heads
assembled, the wrong seals got put in.

SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:57:56 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: oil smoke on startup

> I stand corrected, they are chrome rings


Allen, you just answered the question. Chrome rings will take awhile to
seat. It will all depend on how your machine shop honed the cylinder bores
and what final crosshatch finish was laid down. I will assume your machine
shop used an electronic cylinder honing machine, like a Sunnen Cylinder
King, and did *not* hone your cylinders by hand. I will also assume you are
using normal petroleum engine oil. Synthetic engine oil may interfere with
chrome ring seating. Synthetic engine oil will not interfere with moly ring
seating.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 13:12:59 -0400
From: "Trade 2000" <travelchile@manquehue.net>
Subject: Re: oil smoke on startup

My does the same if I start it cold 2-3 times, moving the car around, on the
4th start it will smoke blue for a moment - froged pistons, 300miles, 468--
Matt
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Allen Schwartz" <mycj@tds.net>
To: "olds list" <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 10:34 PM
Subject: oil smoke on startup


> Is it pretty normal to get some blue oil smoke upon starting when the
motor
> only has a few miles on it still? I think there is about 200 miles mabey
50
> more. When my car sits awhile it will blow some smoke when I start it up.
It
> has total seal chromemoly rings so I'm hoping they just hevn't sealed yet
> but I thought oil on starting was from valve seals and these are brand new
> edelbrock heads
> Allen Schwartz
> A&L Enterprises
> mycj@tds.net
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 10:23:52 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: oil smoke on startup

Allen,

Important. Read all the way through.


> Actually, some ring manufacturers ARE describing their rings as
> "chrome-moly". I believe these are standard molybdenum rings that are
> chrome-plated for wear resistance. They're intended for street engines,
not
> race engines. IIRC, you can find some listings for chrome-moly rings in
> Summit.


That makes no sense. The ring itself is either cast iron or ductile iron
(stronger). Either the moly or the chrome is plasma sprayed onto the ring
face. That is the wear and sealing surface. To deposit first moly, and then
put chrome over it, is defeating the purpose of the superior moly coating.
There are some ring companies who will supply a moly ring for the top and a
chrome ring for the 2nd. Also, it is common for the oil rails to be chromed
on their sealing edge. That could be referred to as a chrome-moly ring set
by some marketing geek hype.

Decades ago before plasma spraying was perfected, moly rings had a thin
groove machined into the face and a moly wire was embedded into the groove
for sealing. Grant moly rings were made that way. Unfortunately, under
certain conditions, the wire could come out and score the cylinder wall.
That's one reason Grant went out of business. Chrome rings were actually
plated with hard industrial chrome during that time period. I have no idea
how they managed that. With the advent of plasma spraying, everything
changed.

However, back to Allen's problem, there's one thing that I forgot. He has
Total Seal rings. Go to http://www.totalseal.com/typer.html . Allen, did you
get a ring set with standard tension oil rings or low tension oil rings? If
you got low tension oil rings, ***that*** is why your engine is puffing
smoke on start-up.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 10:37:30 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Frod 289 Valve Seals???

> Those are apparently the exhaust seals; the
> intakes are somewhat longer. But the intakes appear as if they will also
> fit over the machined spring tower. Doesn't matter now as I bought 16 of
> the exhaust seals, have one set in place, just removed all the other
> rockers/bridges and soaking em in carb cleaner.


That's strange. There are several different valve seal listings for small
block Ford. I know the one I used had the same part number for intake and
exhaust. Back then, I didn't notice. Now, however, in answering questions
about 289 valve seals and looking up part numbers in my catalogs, I come up
with several different applications. If someone is now showing a specific
part number for the exhaust only, and that seal matches the dimensions I
gave you, I would do just as you did, buy 16 of them. The assumption would
then be the exhaust seal may be made from a slightly more heat resistant
rubber. Use those everywhere on that assumption.

Did the exhaust seal cost more than the intake seal? If so, a better rubber
might be the answer.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 14:45:52 EDT
From: Rcktpwr2@aol.com
Subject: Re: '67 Supreme convert pics

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In a message dated 7/17/2004 8:07:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,  
carcouple@cox.net writes:

http://www.members.cox.net/varleyequipment/pics2.html


Another nice 67 on the road............................
 
  Bernie NJ

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 7/17/2004 8:07:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20
carcouple@cox.net writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000=20
  size=3D2>http://www.members.cox.net/varleyequipment/pics2.html</FONT></BLO=
CKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Another nice 67 on the road............................</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp; Bernie NJ</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:19:22 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: Frod 289 Valve Seals???

At 10:37 AM 7/18/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>That's strange. There are several different valve seal listings for 
>small block Ford. I know the one I used had the same part number for 
>intake and exhaust. Back then, I didn't notice. Now, however, in 
>answering questions about 289 valve seals and looking up part numbers 
>in my catalogs, I come up with several different applications. If 
>someone is now showing a specific part number for the exhaust only, 
>and that seal matches the dimensions I gave you, I would do just as 
>you did, buy 16 of them. The assumption would then be the exhaust seal 
>may be made from a slightly more heat resistant rubber. Use those 
>everywhere on that assumption.

There's also the size difference. Perhaps they found the longer seal now
specified for the intake, burns too easily down at the open end on the
valve "tower".

Here's the PNs I have (application for the Frods is '66 Stang 289 4 bbl,
non-hi po; application for the Olds is '88 Crapice w/307 Olds V8) and some
prices (prices of the Frod seals are for a set of eight each; the Olds seal
kit contains 8 intakes, 8 exhaust):
                                  NAPA            Pick
                  Rock   Advance Levine's  DAP  Pro Parts
Intake SS13364-1  $5.51   $7.48  I ferget $5.30 not listed
Exhaust SS72562   $5.68   $7.38  $10.99   $5.46   $6.01
Olds 307 SS70393 $10.06  $10.48  I ferget $9.67  $10.64

Note that the Olds kit comes with different seals for intake and exhaust,
in separate plastic bags labeled 70393-Intake and 70437-Exhaust, even
though the kit PN of SS70393 is a box containing both intake and exhaust
seals. The box says "Premium quality NYLON seals enclosed". The intake
seals are black hard-plastic, the exhaust are white hard-plastic. Both are
the same dimension, roughly 1/2" long. The box also includes two
drilled-out nylon rods that are used to tap the new seals down over the
valve stems, because the seals are an interference fit with the valve stem.
My 307 has only black seals on all valve stems, and I have to scrape any
varnish ring off the valve stem to be able to pull the old ones off.

One might therefore argue that since my seals are so tough to remove, they
may not be worn out after all. I'm worried about that but nothing I can do,
eh? It may be my rings are shot but that wouldn't explain the large puffs
of blue smoke when starting the hot engine. There's no way the oil could be
migrating UP past the piston's oil control ring into the combustion
chamber. And I've never seen the blue cloud while starting the engine cold.

Which is also confusing: if oil is seeping down the valve stems after
shutting off the hot engine, then where's it going that it doesn't burn
when starting the COLD engine?? It must be seeping down the cylinder walls
and perhaps seeping down past the rings. If you consider that the pistons
and rings are at their largest size when hot, that could mean they
effectively keep the oil from seeping past while the engine is still hot.
But after they cool off, perhaps they contract sufficiently that the oil
seeps past the rings and pistons back into the crankcase.

Or is there another simpler explanation for why no obvious oil smoke when
starting cold?

>Did the exhaust seal cost more than the intake seal? If so, a better 
>rubber might be the answer.

As you can see, there's only pennies difference with the larger intake seal
being slightly higher in two case, and slightly lower in the third case. I
suspect they're the same rubber, just different lengths.

DAP lists primarily Melling parts; what's your feeling of quality of those
compared to Sealed Power (yes, I know: Melling is great for oil pumps  ;o)??

SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:21:04 -0500
From: "Allen Schwartz" <mycj@tds.net>
Subject: Re: oil smoke on startup

Yes it was done on a machine. I always run synthetic but I know better then
that for break in. I have dino oil in there and will not run synthetic for
at least 2k miles. I just got back from a cruis and I now have almost 300
miles on it. Time for an oil change
Allen Schwartz
A&L Enterprises
mycj@tds.net
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: oil smoke on startup


> > I stand corrected, they are chrome rings
>
>
> Allen, you just answered the question. Chrome rings will take awhile to
> seat. It will all depend on how your machine shop honed the cylinder bores
> and what final crosshatch finish was laid down. I will assume your machine
> shop used an electronic cylinder honing machine, like a Sunnen Cylinder
> King, and did *not* hone your cylinders by hand. I will also assume you
are
> using normal petroleum engine oil. Synthetic engine oil may interfere with
> chrome ring seating. Synthetic engine oil will not interfere with moly
ring
> seating.
>
> Milton Schick
> 1964 442 Cutlass
> imp@theriver.com
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:53:55 -0500
From: "Allen Schwartz" <mycj@tds.net>
Subject: Re: oil smoke on startup

To tell you the gods honest truth I don't know which ones. I'l have to go
try and find the reciept
Allen Schwartz
A&L Enterprises
mycj@tds.net
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: oil smoke on startup


> Allen,
>
> Important. Read all the way through.
>
>
> > Actually, some ring manufacturers ARE describing their rings as
> > "chrome-moly". I believe these are standard molybdenum rings that are
> > chrome-plated for wear resistance. They're intended for street engines,
> not
> > race engines. IIRC, you can find some listings for chrome-moly rings in
> > Summit.
>
>
> That makes no sense. The ring itself is either cast iron or ductile iron
> (stronger). Either the moly or the chrome is plasma sprayed onto the ring
> face. That is the wear and sealing surface. To deposit first moly, and
then
> put chrome over it, is defeating the purpose of the superior moly coating.
> There are some ring companies who will supply a moly ring for the top and
a
> chrome ring for the 2nd. Also, it is common for the oil rails to be
chromed
> on their sealing edge. That could be referred to as a chrome-moly ring set
> by some marketing geek hype.
>
> Decades ago before plasma spraying was perfected, moly rings had a thin
> groove machined into the face and a moly wire was embedded into the groove
> for sealing. Grant moly rings were made that way. Unfortunately, under
> certain conditions, the wire could come out and score the cylinder wall.
> That's one reason Grant went out of business. Chrome rings were actually
> plated with hard industrial chrome during that time period. I have no idea
> how they managed that. With the advent of plasma spraying, everything
> changed.
>
> However, back to Allen's problem, there's one thing that I forgot. He has
> Total Seal rings. Go to http://www.totalseal.com/typer.html . Allen, did
you
> get a ring set with standard tension oil rings or low tension oil rings?
If
> you got low tension oil rings, ***that*** is why your engine is puffing
> smoke on start-up.
>
> Milton Schick
> 1964 442 Cutlass
> imp@theriver.com
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:12:36 -0400
From: "John Nasta" <email@johnnasta.com>
Subject: horn cap p/n 399332

Whatever horn cap p/n 399332 is, that's what's on my El Camino. While I sort
of get a kick out of seeing the rocket emblem on my steering wheel, can
somebody tell me which car(s) this cap really belongs to? If anybody has
been desperately searching for this part for their Olds, let me know and we
can work something out (obviously I'd need to trade for or sell to buy a
replacement).

John Nasta

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:23:55 -0400
From: "Chris Carson" <fastcarson@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Frod 289 Valve Seals???

Steve, did you notice that they REALLY "fixed" the oil return problem on the
late 307 7A heads?? When I opened up my 307, I thought that something had
smashed holes in the head castings!!
For those who haven't looked at these heads before, the factory opened up a
BUNCH of material between the inner "wall" where the valve cover seals and
the valve guides, all the way across the head. A nice answer to those pesky
little oil holes on the sides!!!

Chris
- ----- Original Message -----
> But when I removed the valve covers yesterday, I found cork valve cover
> gaskets. The factory did not use valve cover gaskets on these
roller-cammed
> 307s and I don't believe even on the earlier flat tappet 307s. The tops of
> the heads are CLEAN, no gunk whatsoever, just puddles of oil here and
> there. No metallic particles found anywhere (little pools of gray
> dirt-appearing material). Oil return holes are clear and open (as they
were
> in the lifter gallery two years ago). But the insides of the valve covers
> do have dried old-oil/varnish caked on them, as do the rockers, pushrods,
> pivot bridges and valve springs/retainers. It appears that someone did at
> least install valve cover gaskets, and may have also done a valve job but
> didn't bother to clean the varnish/dried oil cake off the valve train
parts.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 16:56:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Ferraro <petercferraro@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: '98 Aurora problem

- --0-299095261-1090195012=:64690
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I had what might be a similar situation.
 
Headlights were flashing at a rather erratic and high speed.  From inside the car there is a rather loud clicking noise (from the headlight solenoid) down near the e-brake.  The cause for me was contamination on the headlight switch.  I pullled the rubber boot back, sprayed the swicth with contact cleaner and it was okay.  The problem comes back about once per year in the summer as the heat seems to make something migrate on the contacts.  These swicthes are known to fail and are very expensive.
 
Not sure if you are experiencing the same thing or not but Good Luck.
 
Peter Ferraro
1971 Cutlass
1996 Aurora
1998 Bravada
 
OCA# 36530



		
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- --0-299095261-1090195012=:64690
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<DIV>I had what might be a similar situation.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Headlights were flashing at a rather erratic and high speed.&nbsp; From inside the car there is a rather loud clicking noise (from the headlight solenoid) down near the e-brake.&nbsp; The cause for me was contamination on the headlight switch.&nbsp; I pullled the rubber boot back, sprayed the swicth with contact cleaner and it was okay.&nbsp; The problem comes back about once per year in the summer as the heat seems to make something migrate on the contacts.&nbsp;&nbsp;These swicthes are known to fail and are very expensive.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Not sure if you are experiencing the same thing or not but Good Luck.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Peter Ferraro</DIV>
<DIV>1971 Cutlass</DIV>
<DIV>1996 Aurora</DIV>
<DIV>1998 Bravada</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>OCA# 36530<BR></DIV></DIV><p>
		<hr size=1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
<a href="http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/">Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!</a>
- --0-299095261-1090195012=:64690--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:00:23 -0500
From: "Allen Schwartz" <mycj@tds.net>
Subject: Re: oil smoke on startup

I found the reciept. I have not looked up the part number yet but the
reciept says total seal street which would make it a "regular tension" oil
ring and not the light tension ones according to there site

Allen Schwartz
A&L Enterprises
mycj@tds.net
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: oil smoke on startup


> Allen,
>
> Important. Read all the way through.
>
>
> > Actually, some ring manufacturers ARE describing their rings as
> > "chrome-moly". I believe these are standard molybdenum rings that are
> > chrome-plated for wear resistance. They're intended for street engines,
> not
> > race engines. IIRC, you can find some listings for chrome-moly rings in
> > Summit.
>
>
> That makes no sense. The ring itself is either cast iron or ductile iron
> (stronger). Either the moly or the chrome is plasma sprayed onto the ring
> face. That is the wear and sealing surface. To deposit first moly, and
then
> put chrome over it, is defeating the purpose of the superior moly coating.
> There are some ring companies who will supply a moly ring for the top and
a
> chrome ring for the 2nd. Also, it is common for the oil rails to be
chromed
> on their sealing edge. That could be referred to as a chrome-moly ring set
> by some marketing geek hype.
>
> Decades ago before plasma spraying was perfected, moly rings had a thin
> groove machined into the face and a moly wire was embedded into the groove
> for sealing. Grant moly rings were made that way. Unfortunately, under
> certain conditions, the wire could come out and score the cylinder wall.
> That's one reason Grant went out of business. Chrome rings were actually
> plated with hard industrial chrome during that time period. I have no idea
> how they managed that. With the advent of plasma spraying, everything
> changed.
>
> However, back to Allen's problem, there's one thing that I forgot. He has
> Total Seal rings. Go to http://www.totalseal.com/typer.html . Allen, did
you
> get a ring set with standard tension oil rings or low tension oil rings?
If
> you got low tension oil rings, ***that*** is why your engine is puffing
> smoke on start-up.
>
> Milton Schick
> 1964 442 Cutlass
> imp@theriver.com
>
>
>

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #4955
*********************************
