
oldsmobile-digest        Friday, June 11 2004        Volume 01 : Number 4916



manual disc brake masters
RE: 74 - 81 rear ends
Re: Intrigue Headlights
Re: Fuel Pump FYI
Re: disc brake master cylinders
72 442 convertible
Vibration from rear
Re: OAI pin won't release
76 Toronado For Sale - RARE version
Re: disc brake master cylinders
Re: Vibration from rear
Re: disc brake master cylinders
RE: Vibration from rear
Re: 72 442 convertible
Re: Vibration from rear
Re: Vibration from rear
Re: Vibration from rear
Some W31's had Manual Disc Brakes
Re: Vibration from rear
RE: Vibration from rear
Re: Vibration from rear
Re: Some W31's had Manual Disc Brakes
Re: Intrigue Headlights
Re: Vibration from rear
Re: Vibration from rear

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:22:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: chris smetana <grp442@yahoo.com>
Subject: manual disc brake masters

- --0-822805786-1086906162=:28891
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Doug Ahern wrote:
> did GM make any manual brake master cylinders for discs?   I know 
that
> Chrysler built all disc cars with power brakes until about 74 or so, 
> when the Valiant/Darts were offered with manual discs (larger dia. 
> piston in the MC than power assist MCs).  what about GM?   every 
> disc brake A-body I've come across has had a power booster.  same
> goes for 70's Novas/Apollos/Venturas....

Well, the '70 W-31 cars didn't make enough vacuum to run a power 
booster
so they could be had only with manual discs IIRC. Would that still be
available? 
- -------------------------------------------------------
correct.  I'm actually thinking about making my F-85 a W-31 clone.
 
manual disc brake masters starting appearing on _SOME_   69 W-30s.  Then obviously became more known on 70 W-30/W-31, 71 W-30 and 72 W-30, mainly 4sp cars.  but 70 W-31 automatics were manual discs.  I'm pretty sure you could special order manual discs on a non W-car also.  In fact, I don't see why you couldn't.  So they were rather common, or more common than one might think.
 
Chris
grp442@yahoo.com
 

		
- ---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends.  Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger
- --0-822805786-1086906162=:28891
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<DIV>On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Doug Ahern wrote:<BR>&gt; did GM make any manual brake master cylinders for discs?&nbsp;&nbsp; I know <BR>that<BR>&gt; Chrysler built all disc cars with power brakes until about 74 or so, <BR>&gt; when the Valiant/Darts were offered with manual discs (larger dia. <BR>&gt; piston in the MC than power assist MCs).&nbsp; what about GM?&nbsp;&nbsp; every <BR>&gt; disc brake A-body I've come across has had a power booster.&nbsp; same<BR>&gt; goes for 70's Novas/Apollos/Venturas....<BR><BR>Well, the '70 W-31 cars didn't make enough vacuum to run a power <BR>booster<BR>so they could be had only with manual discs IIRC. Would that still be<BR>available? </DIV>
<DIV>-------------------------------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV>correct.&nbsp; I'm actually thinking about making my F-85 a W-31 clone.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>manual disc brake masters starting appearing on _SOME_&nbsp;&nbsp; 69 W-30s.&nbsp; Then obviously became more known on 70 W-30/W-31, 71 W-30 and 72 W-30, mainly 4sp cars.&nbsp; but 70 W-31 automatics were manual discs.&nbsp; I'm pretty sure you could special order manual discs on a non W-car also.&nbsp; In fact, I don't see why you couldn't.&nbsp; So they were rather common, or more common than one might think.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Chris</DIV>
<DIV><A href="mailto:grp442@yahoo.com">grp442@yahoo.com</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><p>
		<hr size=1><font face=arial size=-1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>Friends.  Fun. <a href="http://messenger.yahoo.com/">Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger</a>
- --0-822805786-1086906162=:28891--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 18:57:38 -0400
From: Michael Ecker <ecker567@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: 74 - 81 rear ends

- --What are the chances the 74 8.5" rear end will fit into the 81 CS?

Matt, I put an 8.5" posi rear from a '77 Monte Carlo in a '78 Cutlass several years back.

Main issues were:  

1. pinion angle was very high, resolved by lengthening the lower rear axle control arms 2" each.

2. after getting pinion angle correct, spring seats were at a bad angle, had to cut them off the housing and re-weld them square to the spring ends.

3. the '77 rear is about 1" wider on each side, which makes the wheels stick out a little bit

4. due to the width difference it is a little difficult to get the lower control arms to bolt up (they are at a little bit if an angle compared to stock)

Aside from these issues, the rear bolted in and worked great using the original driveshaft from the stock 7.5" rear.  It can be made to work with a little effort, although I would look for an 8.5" rear from a T-type that would be a bolt-in if possible (remember that the T-type 8.5" rear will require a shorter driveshaft than your 7.5" rear).

HTH,

Michael Ecker

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 23:19:35 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: Intrigue Headlights

At 06:33 PM 6/10/2004 +0000, you wrote:
>I stuck a piece of clear tape over 
>the outside hole, then removed the headlamp and laid it face-down on a shop 
>rag. I then put a blob of clear silicon sealer on the end of a popsicle 
>stick, and used that to fill the hole from the back side of the glass, 
>reaching through one of the socket holes with the popsicle stick. The tape 
>on the outside sealed the hole to keep the goop in place until it set. I 
>left the headlamp face-down overnight to cure, reinstalled it the next day, 
>and it's been fine ever since.

I'll hafta rember that one.

SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 19:37:55 -0400
From: "swanny" <swannys78@adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Pump FYI

I remember the pics.....IIRC......

Will that application fit a 350?
What is the psi?
TIA 
Pat Swanton.
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Tumolo" <ptumolo@comcast.net>
To: "Oldsmobile-Digest" <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 4:04 PM
Subject: Fuel Pump FYI


> When I was running my engine on the dyno, it would have a serious lean
> out condition about 4500 RPM. The dyno guy ruled out the carb and float,
> so all fingers pointed toward the fuel pump. It couldn't be.....brand
> new AC Delco # 41567.
> 
> I install the new engine in the car (with the same pump). Runs great,
> and has plenty of power to 4500 RPM and it falls flat on it's face. So,
> I figure that it is the pump, and go tot the auto parts store to get
> another one. When I tell the parts guy what I want, he looks it up on
> the computer. He lists a part number 40736.....Hmmm, 442 only
> application. So, I buy it.
> 
> When I compare it to the 41567, I am shocked! The diaphragm on the 40736
> is about 3X bigger than the 41567.
> 
> This large diaphragm pump looks to be the ticket for high performance
> use.
> 
> Paul Tumolo
> 1970 442 Hardtop
> OCA # 31967 
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 23:34:47 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: disc brake master cylinders

At 05:07 PM 6/10/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>did GM make any manual brake master cylinders for discs?

I believe so, Corvette. Not positive, though. Also, it seems to me that
when my high school buddy and I swapped discs onto his '64 Goat from a '67
Skylark, I'm almost positive we also put on a manual MC. Later, after I got
the car from him (after he "graduated" to a '67 427 Vette), I set it up for
racing with a barely-streetable Erson Hi-R-H2 cam. Vacuum was around 7",
increasing to maybe 15" on a long deceleration run from high speed. 7" is
nowhere near enough vacuum for disc brakes.

But it's been so long ago that I might not be rembering it right.

BTW, I never had a problem with those 2-piston calipers.

SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 20:51:30 EDT
From: Keeter1973@aol.com
Subject: 72 442 convertible

- -------------------------------1086915090
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi all, I have a friend that is looking at selling his 72 442 convertible. It 
is in near excellent condition. Just wanted to know if there would be enough 
interest out there to put on ebay. 
Any suggestions


Thanks 

Keith 
Pittsburgh

- -------------------------------1086915090
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; cha=
rset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">
<DIV>Hi all, I have a friend that is looking at selling his 72 442 convertib=
le. It is in near excellent condition. Just wanted to know if there would be=
 enough interest out there to put on ebay. </DIV>
<DIV>Any suggestions</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Thanks </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Keith </DIV>
<DIV>Pittsburgh</DIV></BODY></HTML>

- -------------------------------1086915090--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 20:43:22 -0500
From: Steve Reed <ssreed@direcway.com>
Subject: Vibration from rear

All,
    I have a vibration in my car which is unlike anything I have ever had in
any of my previous vehicles.  The vibration seems to be like a harmonic
happening every 3/4 to 1 second.  It doesn't come in & go away at different
speeds, like a tire balance issue.
	I have replaced the motor mounts, transmission mount, transmission
tail shaft bushing, and installed a new driveshaft assembly (Yoke &
U-Joints, & balanced shaft).

I am unsure if I should now be looking at a bent axle, or if this could be a
pinion bearing.  There is no howling noise, that would indicate a bad axle,
or pinion bearing.

How does one check an axles for straightness?  Can I put a dial indicator on
the axle flange and check for run out?

What symptoms does a bad rear end/& or bearings make?

Any advice is appreciated!

Steve Reed 
'96 9C1 Chevy Caprice 
'70 Cutlass Supreme Ragtop (In Reassembly mode) 
'68 Cutlass Supreme (Seized Engine) 
Austin, TX 
http://www.sreed.0catch.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:09:37 EDT
From: JoeMcCallaIII@aol.com
Subject: Re: OAI pin won't release

- -------------------------------1086919776
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jon
I am afraid the rolled pin portion of this assembly that stays under the  
hood has slipped to one side.  Most of the time, you can take a screwdriver  
coming from the car, sometimes with a work light and see the rolled  pin. Have 
someone hold pressure one this side of the hood so the pin  pushes back to center 
easier.
Hopefully this is of value and the correct fix.
Joe

- -------------------------------1086919776
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>Jon</DIV>
<DIV>I am afraid the rolled pin portion of this assembly that stays under th=
e=20
hood has slipped to one side.&nbsp; Most of the time, you can take a screwdr=
iver=20
coming from&nbsp;the car, sometimes with a work light&nbsp;and see the rolle=
d=20
pin. Have&nbsp;someone&nbsp;hold pressure one this side of the hood so the p=
in=20
pushes back to center easier.</DIV>
<DIV>Hopefully this is of value and the correct fix.</DIV>
<DIV>Joe</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

- -------------------------------1086919776--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:54:44 -0500
From: bcroe@juno.com
Subject: 76 Toronado For Sale - RARE version

10 Jun 2004  "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com> writes:

> I have 

>  SEEN the fabled Solid Main Web 403!

> Chris Witt

That I believe when I see it myself.  Bruce Roe

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 21:38:26 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: disc brake master cylinders

Doug,

For drum brakes on a '60s and early '70s non-disc brake GM, I'm sure there
were no residual pressure valves used anywhere. I don't recollect for GM
disc brakes, for all the disc brake systems we used were aftermarket
Hurst/Airheart. As for Hurst/Airheart disc brakes, the use of
Hurst/Airheart's residual pressure valve was mandatory. There were residual
pressure valves built into each Hurst/Airheart master cylinder. For use with
stock type and other master cylinders, Hurst/Airheart had add-on residual
pressure valves that would screw into the outlet port of a master cylinder.
The valves were available with a 7.5 and 15 pound rating. Thunder uses a 15
pound Hurst/Airheart residual pressure valve in each outlet port of her 1970
Chevy Impala manual disc brake dual master cylinder, for her 4-wheel
Hurst/Airheart disc brakes.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Ahern" <doug.ahern@usg.edu>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: disc brake master cylinders


> On 25 06/08/04, chris smetana wrote:
> > Whelp, I had to do a quickie front brake repair to the 70 F-85 last
night.  Glad I made it home from work though.  I knew I was on borrowed time
with the front brakes, but was hoping it could wait a week.  Well, she had a
mind of her own.  I'm planning on swapping the current manual front drums to
manual discs using a power disc brake setup from a 71 LeMans parts car I
have.  My question, which I haven't had time to research myself, but figured
I'd ask here is, is there a difference between a manual and power disc brake
master cylinder?  I'm debating on rebuilding the current power disc brake
master cylinder and putting it on my F-85 but keeping the manual brakes just
discs.  I'm pretty sure there isn't but I need to double check.
> >
>
> there are two things to check on, neither or which I can speak of in
> an authoritative manner regarding Oldsmobiles.
>
> many drum brake systems of the 60s/early 70s made use of "residual
> pressure valves".  these are small valves (internal or external to
> the MC) that maintain a small amount of pressure in the hydraulic
> system to help keep the wheel cylinder seals tight against the cylinder
> and was a measure to prevent leaks.  Of course this wasn't enough pressure
> to overcome the springs and move the shoes into the drums.  With disc
> brakes, the residual pressure valves were not needed.   when using a drum
> brake MC on discs, if the residual pressure valve isn't removed,  the
> pads will aways be exerting themselves on to the rotor (moreso than when
> they are just rubbing them...).   In the mid 70s, drum brake wheel
cylinder
> seal technology changed to do away with the residual pressure valve on
> the rear drums.  I konw that Bendix and Kelsey Hayes systems for Chrysler
> and Ford used residual pressure valves,  I'm not sure about GM.  can
anyone
> chime in?
>
> the other difference is fuild displacement. on drum brake cars, the front
> and rear reserviors are equally sized,  on disc brake cars, the reservior
> serving the discs is larger.  I think this is because the discs require
> more fuild to delieved to the calipers than drum wheel cylinders.
>
> did GM make any manual brake master cylinders for discs?   I know that
> Chrysler built all disc cars with power brakes until about 74 or so,
> when the Valiant/Darts were offered with manual discs (larger dia.
> piston in the MC than power assist MCs).  what about GM?   every
> disc brake A-body I've come across has had a power booster.  same
> goes for 70's Novas/Apollos/Venturas....
>
> Doug Ahern
> Athens, GA (64 Cutlass)
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:05:39 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Vibration from rear

> The vibration seems to be like a harmonic
> happening every 3/4 to 1 second.  It doesn't come in & go away at
different
> speeds, like a tire balance issue.


E-mail noises and vibrations are very hard to hear and feel. :-)

But it is there all the time? Does it get worse at higher speed and less at
lower speed, but always there?

1) Eminent ply separation in the tread of one of your tires?
2) Missing bellhousing bolt?
3) Missing torque converter bolt?
4) Missing bolt holding the crank pulley on the harmonic balancer?
5) Missing water pump pulley bolt?

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 01:33:33 -0400
From: Cutlass7276@netscape.net (Randy Hermsen)
Subject: Re: disc brake master cylinders

Hello
Did i hear somting bouts a little cup to hold the pin up in the M.C.?
Bumobile has not much vac(no booster LOTSA CAM) for power brakes and came with stock frt disks in 72.
 http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3596099/1088190417289_0610_009.jpg 
One of the first things i noticed when i got the car was the pin could just fall out of place if the pedal sprung back towards the driver a bit :O !!!
A buddy/life saver made me a cup to fit in the hole from engine compartment side of M.C.,,,,just removed M.C. inserted cup bolt back on M.C.
 http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3596099/1086898448174_0610_012.jpg 
We wont talk about the countless other issues i had to deal with :O
Randy(i think i need a new M.C.)Hermsen
Maple Ditch B.C.
58 88
72 Cutlass Convert
72 Cutlass(Bu*ck430 no pwr brakes or steery:O)
 http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3596099/1001796904860_frontview.jpg 
 http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3596099/1025497466346_takeOff.JPG 

__________________________________________________________________
Introducing the New Netscape Internet Service. 
Only $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register

Netscape. Just the Net You Need. 

New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer
Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups.
Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 01:42:39 -0500
From: Steve Reed <ssreed@direcway.com>
Subject: RE: Vibration from rear

Milton, 

> > The vibration seems to be like a harmonic happening every 3/4 to 1 
> > second.  It doesn't come in & go away at
> different
> > speeds, like a tire balance issue.
> 
> 
> E-mail noises and vibrations are very hard to hear and feel. :-)


Yeah I hear ya.  I don't have any type of noise at all, just a vibration
that is noticeable at speeds above 35MPH.  


> But it is there all the time? Does it get worse at higher 
> speed and less at lower speed, but always there?


It does increase in severity with speed.  It does not seem to be associated
with engine speed, as I can drop the car into neutral and still have the
vibration.  I can also kill the engine, and coast and still have the
problem, which is making me believe it is definitely rear-end related.


> 1) Eminent ply separation in the tread of one of your tires?
> 2) Missing bellhousing bolt?
> 3) Missing torque converter bolt?
> 4) Missing bolt holding the crank pulley on the harmonic balancer?
> 5) Missing water pump pulley bolt?

I'll dbl check all of these tomorrow.

Any suggestions for checking axles?

What are the symptoms of a bad pinion bearing; just noise?

Thanks again,

Steve Reed 
'96 9C1 Chevy Caprice 
'70 Cutlass Supreme Ragtop (In Reassembly mode) 
'68 Cutlass Supreme (Seized Engine) 
Austin, TX 
http://www.sreed.0catch.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 00:46:47 -0700
From: geo.aigel@sbcglobal.net
Subject: Re: 72 442 convertible

Keith:

I think he will have a more sincere audience if he advertises it on 442.com

There will be plenty of interest for this car. However, it isn't as 
desirable as a 68-71 model. The 72 is not it's own model any more, rather 
than an option on the Cutlass. To proof that it is genuine, one needs a 
build sheet, dealer invoice, window sticker or protecto plate. Also, often 
these came with small blocks (350s) and even single exhaust, because the 
442 was just a trim and handling option!

Hope this helps. I think Ebay is an option, however, if it comes to cars, 
people seem flaky on there and there is plenty of deadbeat bidders also, 
that can ruin your auction.

George

At 08:51 PM 6/10/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi all, I have a friend that is looking at selling his 72 442 convertible. 
>It is in near excellent condition. Just wanted to know if there would be 
>enough interest out there to put on ebay.
>Any suggestions
>
>
>Thanks
>
>Keith
>Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 02:00:10 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Vibration from rear

Steve,

> I can also kill the engine, and coast and still have the
> problem, which is making me believe it is definitely rear-end related.


If you can take the load off of the rear axle (trans in neutral) and the
problem ***does not decrease***, then the odds would indicate it's not
anything in the rear axle. That screams a bad tire. If you had driven off
the road and dropped 3 feet, you might bend an axle, but if you haven't done
that, I wouldn't expect a bent axle. If the vibration does decrease but is
still there at a lower intensity with no load, then it could be pinion
bearings, even though you don't hear any whine. Gear whine usually would
come from the ring and pinion gears with a bad tooth mesh. You could have a
loose pinion, as if the crush sleeve collapsed a little (it's happened
before) or a bearing race wasn't seated all the way and it suddenly decided
to seat properly (that's happened too), and the pinion is loose front to
rear. That will cause the pinion to vibrate. Take the driveshaft off the
differential yoke and see if you can wiggle the yoke back and forth,
up-down, front to rear. If so, the pinion became loose. If that is the case,
tighten the pinion nut until the looseness goes away and then drive the car.
If everything works okay, don't worry about it. If it doesn't, you would
have had to tear down the rear axle anyway. Just a little bit of looseness,
5-10 thousands, will feel like both u-joints are shot.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 05:05:11 -0400
From: Gene Gatti <64f-85@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Vibration from rear

Hi Steve,
    Another thing to check would be the pinion angle. Possibly worn 
bushings and springs might have altered your pinion angle to the point 
where it's causing a vibration.
Good luck,
Gene

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 06:22:56 -0700
From: Kevin & Casey Olund <kcolund@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Vibration from rear

>
> It does increase in severity with speed.  It does not seem to be associated
> with engine speed, as I can drop the car into neutral and still have the
> vibration.  I can also kill the engine, and coast and still have the
> problem, which is making me believe it is definitely rear-end related.
>

I missed dome of this thread, but in my experience, if it doesn't go away under different loads and appears at a certain
speed, odds are good it's tire related.
One other possibility, maybe already mentioned... is a faulty  or dry u-joint.

Kevin

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 09:52:34 -0400
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: Some W31's had Manual Disc Brakes

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Doug Ahern wrote:
>did GM make any manual brake master cylinders for discs?   I know that
>Chrysler built all disc cars with power brakes until about 74 or so, when 
>the Valiant/Darts were offered with manual discs (larger dia. piston in the 
>MC than power assist MCs).  what about GM?   every disc brake A-body I've 
>come across has had a power booster.  same
>goes for 70's Novas/Apollos/Venturas....

Well, the '70 W-31 cars didn't make enough vacuum to run a power booster
so they could be had only with manual discs IIRC. Would that still be
available?
Greg Beaulieu
=================
Indeed, I have such a system, in boxes, awaiting use on The Car one day
it's off a 1970 W31 I am told. I even got a crusty "W-31" badge off the car.
OH car parted out in AZ. Dick Bybee?

Ayep, manual disc brakes.
Gotta be better than the "Darn Near Adequate"* manual drums the factory 
fitted.
Esp. with 4.33 gears.....

*Martin Mull, Fernwood Tonite, I believe.
- ----------------------
Chris Witt
1303 W. Miller Rd.
Lansing MI 48911

RocketScience442@hotmail.com

Cell 517-449-0432 weekends or short weekday calls or leave message.
Home 517-882-9747 thru 10-11pm MI time most days

_________________________________________________________________
Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and enter to win 
a trip to NY 
http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497ave/direct/01/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 09:56:24 -0400
From: SteveH <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: Vibration from rear

At Friday, 11 June 2004, you wrote:
>If you can take the load off of the rear axle (trans in neutral) 
>and the problem ***does not decrease***, then the odds would 
>indicate it's not anything in the rear axle. That screams a bad 
>tire.

Yes. If you cannot make the noise or vibration change with the throttle,
either accelerating or decelerating or merely maintaining constant 
speed, then it's axle or tire. But if you can make it change with 
the throttle, then it's a worn ring or pinion gear, pinion bearing,
or tranny bushing. Possibly driveshaft U-joints but my experience 
is those don't change much with accelerating/decelerating until their 
very last ball bearings about to be ground to dust  ;o(((((

>If you had driven off the road and dropped 3 feet, you might 
>bend an axle, but if you haven't done that, I wouldn't expect 
>a bent axle.

GM rear axles are notoriously easy to bend by bumping curbs; I've 
found a LOT of bent axles in older A-bodies where the PO apparently 
hit the curb with a rear wheel just a little too hard, especially 
in the northern states where that apparently happens more often due 
to slick streets in the winter. Snow-covered curbs, for example, 
aren't as easily seen while you're parking.

>If the vibration does decrease but is still there at a lower 
>intensity with no load, then it could be pinion bearings, 
>even though you don't hear any whine.

My experience with both axle and pinion bearings is they tend to 
rumble, much like a very annoying ricer with a bigger woofer than 
engine  ;o\ Pinion bearing rumble usually doesn't start until above 
40-45 mph. When it becomes apparent, then it can increase, sometimes 
dramatically, upon either acceleration or deceleration but not always 
both (and it can feel/sound different between the two). The rumble 
may occur over a very narrow range of road speeds such as between 
55 and 58 mph, being almost undetectable at any other speed. More 
often, it begins at a moderate highway speed and gradually becomes 
louder and more noticeable until you can feel it in the seat at normal 
or higher highway speeds. Over a long trip, your body's rear end 
can actually become numb and fall asleep.

The rumble sometimes can rise to a very high peak in both noise and 
vibration level when within that speed range and at just the right 
throttle application, making the car feel like it's shaking apart.


Axle bearings are normally nowhere as "peaky", becoming apparent 
above 40-45 mph and sometimes peaking slightly at a higher speed 
before almost disappearing. Until the dang thang suddenly wipes out 
all the ball bearings and yer axle starts floating out the side of 
the car  =============8-O

A bad axle bearing can usually be heard to peak on one side of the 
car or the other, especially when driving alongside a Jersey barrier 
(which may actually be the first time that you've ever heard your 
axle bearings rumble).

I've seen, heard and owned cars with noisy/vibrating axle bearings 
that had been that way for well over 100,000 miles. They usually 
never seemed to get any worse. But over the years, a bad pinion bearing 
will gradually change characteristics and can become extremely obnoxious 
in either noise or vibration.

>Gear whine usually would come from the ring and pinion gears 
>with a bad tooth mesh. You could have a loose pinion, as if 
>the crush sleeve collapsed a little (it's happened before) 
>or a bearing race wasn't seated all the way and it suddenly 
>decided to seat properly (that's happened too), and the pinion 
>is loose front to rear. That will cause the pinion to vibrate.

Pinion whine is EXTREMELY annoying (to me, at least) and sounds as 
if it's coming from the whole rear end, and is at a frequency around 
500 to 800 Hertz. It will drive you CRAZY over a long trip and make 
the wife and kiddies extremely irritable  ;o((( It's usually loudest 
at acceleration. You can have the loud pinion/ring gear whining even 
with a gear mesh pattern that looks fine, when the rear cover is 
removed on the lift. Fresh gear lube doesn't usually change it but 
sometimes, if the lube is original and many years old, changing the 
lube may help for awhile.

One of my bosses back in the '70s bought a brand new Pinto off the 
lot for daily commuting (around 40 miles/day round trip). It was 
maybe four years before I happened to get a ride with him in that 
thing and we were on the freeway. He had a very prominent rear axle 
bearing rumble. I asked him about it and he said it'd had it from 
the first day and he'd always meant to take it back under warranty 
but never did  ;o\  ;o\  ;o\  By then, he had over 80K miles on the 
thing. He still had the rumble six years later when he traded the 
thing in, probly over 200K miles by then.

SteveH



===================================================================
EASY access to your email http://webmail.dandy.net/mr2/nph-mr.cgi
===================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 09:00:29 -0500
From: Steve Reed <ssreed@direcway.com>
Subject: RE: Vibration from rear

Milton replied with...

> Steve,
> 
> > I can also kill the engine, and coast and still have the problem, 
> > which is making me believe it is definitely rear-end related.
> 
> 
> If you can take the load off of the rear axle (trans in 
> neutral) and the problem ***does not decrease***, then the 
> odds would indicate it's not anything in the rear axle. That 
> screams a bad tire. If you had driven off the road and 
> dropped 3 feet, you might bend an axle, but if you haven't 
> done that, I wouldn't expect a bent axle. If the vibration 
> does decrease but is still there at a lower intensity with no 
> load, then it could be pinion bearings, even though you don't 
> hear any whine. Gear whine usually would come from the ring 
> and pinion gears with a bad tooth mesh. You could have a 
> loose pinion, as if the crush sleeve collapsed a little (it's happened
> before) or a bearing race wasn't seated all the way and it 
> suddenly decided to seat properly (that's happened too), and 
> the pinion is loose front to rear. That will cause the pinion 
> to vibrate. Take the driveshaft off the differential yoke and 
> see if you can wiggle the yoke back and forth, up-down, front 
> to rear. If so, the pinion became loose. If that is the case, 
> tighten the pinion nut until the looseness goes away and then 
> drive the car.
> If everything works okay, don't worry about it. If it 
> doesn't, you would have had to tear down the rear axle 
> anyway. Just a little bit of looseness, 5-10 thousands, will 
> feel like both u-joints are shot.
>Milton Schick

Gene Gatti wrote...

>Hi Steve,
>    Another thing to check would be the pinion angle. Possibly worn
bushings and springs might have altered your >pinion angle to the point
where it's causing a vibration.
>Good luck,
>Gene

Kevin Olund wrote...

>I missed dome of this thread, but in my experience, if it doesn't go away
under different loads and appears at a >certain speed, odds are good it's
tire related.
>One other possibility, maybe already mentioned... is a faulty  or dry
u-joint.
>Kevin

Guys,
	Thanks for the replies, as they are appreciated!  Going by popular
opinion, I will first inspect the tires, and try the cheap and easy route of
inspecting & balancing the tires first.

Thanks again,

Steve Reed
'96 9C1 Chevy Caprice
'70 Cutlass Supreme Ragtop
'68 Cutlass Supreme 
Austin, TX
http://www.sreed.0catch.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 07:54:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bill Brooks <deaconblue1969@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Vibration from rear

- --- Steve Reed <ssreed@direcway.com> wrote:
> All,
>     I have a vibration in my car which is unlike
> anything I have ever had in
> any of my previous vehicles. 

Steve - Before you do anything else, try swapping
tires around and see if this makes any kind of
difference.  

Bill

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:15:39 -0400
From: John Livingston <johnliving@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Some W31's had Manual Disc Brakes

boy, you'd need some long arms for them "manual" brakes! I suppose 
it's been beaten into the ground at some point, but "unassisted" or 
even "non-power" brakes make better sense.

John the Librarian


>On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Doug Ahern wrote:
>>did GM make any manual brake master cylinders for discs?   I know that
>>Chrysler built all disc cars with power brakes until about 74 or 
>>so, when the Valiant/Darts were offered with manual discs (larger 
>>dia. piston in the MC than power assist MCs).  what about GM? 
>>every disc brake A-body I've come across has had a power booster. 
>>same
>>goes for 70's Novas/Apollos/Venturas....
>
>Well, the '70 W-31 cars didn't make enough vacuum to run a power booster
>so they could be had only with manual discs IIRC. Would that still be
>available?
>Greg Beaulieu
>=================
>Indeed, I have such a system, in boxes, awaiting use on The Car one day
>it's off a 1970 W31 I am told. I even got a crusty "W-31" badge off the car.
>OH car parted out in AZ. Dick Bybee?
>
>Ayep, manual disc brakes.
>Gotta be better than the "Darn Near Adequate"* manual drums the 
>factory fitted.
>Esp. with 4.33 gears.....
>
>*Martin Mull, Fernwood Tonite, I believe.
>----------------------
>Chris Witt
>1303 W. Miller Rd.
>Lansing MI 48911
>
>RocketScience442@hotmail.com
>
>Cell 517-449-0432 weekends or short weekday calls or leave message.
>Home 517-882-9747 thru 10-11pm MI time most days
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and enter 
>to win a trip to NY 
>http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497ave/direct/01/


- -- 
John Livingston
Library Media Specialist
Phillips Elementary
703 Lemaster Drive
Hampton, VA 23669
757 850 5155

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:51:30 +0000
From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg_o@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Intrigue Headlights

>I'll hafta rember that one.

Yeah, the key is to catch it in time. I guess even if some dirt or water has 
gotten in, you can try washing it out with sudsy water and letting it dry 
overnight before continuing with the repair.

I try to remember to do a walk-around whenever I'm at the gas pump, to look 
for minor boo-boos like this. So one evening I had one of those Oh-Sh** 
moments when I looked at the headlamp, then looked a little closer...  :-(

- -- Andy

_________________________________________________________________
Looking to buy a house? Get informed with the Home Buying Guide from MSN 
House & Home. http://coldwellbanker.msn.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:58:16 +0000
From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg_o@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Vibration from rear

>Steve - Before you do anything else, try swapping
>tires around and see if this makes any kind of
>difference.

...and before even cracking anything loose on the the rear wheels, jack them 
up off the ground for a moment and give each a good spin. Tread weirdness or 
sidewall bulges will be easy to spot.

- -- Andy

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfeeŽ 
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:59:54 -0500
From: "Nick Dean" <sausageman79@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Vibration from rear

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Reed" <ssreed@direcway.com>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 1:42 AM
Subject: RE: Vibration from rear


> Milton,
>
> > > The vibration seems to be like a harmonic happening every 3/4 to 1
> > > second.  It doesn't come in & go away at
> > different
> > > speeds, like a tire balance issue.
> >

Steve,
This could be a combination of 2 vibrations at different frequencies.  I've
never experienced it myself, but I remember hearing about it in a
drivetrains class I had a couple years ago.  It seems to fade in and out
because at one point they cancel each other out, at another they amplify
each other, as the frequencies cross in and out of synchronization.  If it
is in your drivetrain, I believe the two vibration sources have to be on
different sides of a speed changer, such as the differential, so a pinion
bearing or driveshaft could be one source and a bent axle or misbalanced
wheel could be the other.  If you know how to use a reed tachometer or an
EVA, and can get ahold of one, it would be very beneficial right now.  Good
luck.

Nick Dean
SIU Automotive Technology, Carbondale, IL
'72 Cutlass Supreme (needing some work to get back on the road again)
'88 4Runner (desperately desiring a 350 Rocket!)



> Steve Reed
> '96 9C1 Chevy Caprice
> '70 Cutlass Supreme Ragtop (In Reassembly mode)
> '68 Cutlass Supreme (Seized Engine)
> Austin, TX
> http://www.sreed.0catch.com





- ---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.701 / Virus Database: 458 - Release Date: 6/7/2004

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #4916
*********************************
