
oldsmobile-digest       Wednesday, May 26 2004       Volume 01 : Number 4901



Dash speaker grille removal
Spoiler install on '78 Cutlass deck lid
Aurora engine cost
tranny nightmares=new 58prts car
Re: tranny nightmares=new 58prts car
Re: Spoiler install on '78 Cutlass deck lid
Re: Spoiler install on '78 Cutlass deck lid
1970 f85
RE: 1970 f85
RE: Dash speaker grille removal
RE: tranny nightmares=new 58prts car
350 rebuild cost
RE: 350 rebuild cost
installing piston pins
Re: Off Topic - S10 Transmission Problem (cont).
UNBOUNCE: Re: tranny nightmares=new 58prts car
Keys locked in car (sorry, non-Olds)
Re: 350 rebuild cost
Re: installing piston pins
Re: Keys locked in car (sorry, non-Olds)
Re: 350 rebuild cost

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 21:33:59 -0400
From: Michael Ecker <ecker567@earthlink.net>
Subject: Dash speaker grille removal

OK - before I break something, is there a trick to getting the speaker 
grilles out of the dash on a '78 Cutlass Supreme?  Do they just pop out, 
or do I have to pull the dash pad?  I got a pair of Pyle 3.5" speakers 
to replace the non-working dash speakers there now and don't want to 
damage the dash if possible.

Thanks again guys & gals,
Michael Ecker

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 21:39:09 -0400
From: Michael Ecker <ecker567@earthlink.net>
Subject: Spoiler install on '78 Cutlass deck lid

Picked up a decent spoiler from a mid-eighties Firebird this weekend, 
looks like a straightforward install on the deck lid of the '78.  Will 
need to drill the holes for the spoiler studs and cut larger holes in 
the underside reinforcements to fit the nuts and sockets through, just 
need to make sure I do not run into the trunk seal area.  Has anyone 
installed one of these spoilers on a Cutlass, and if so, how far 
forward?  Does anyone have any pics of one of these installed?

Oh, and what is the best place to get new trunk weatherstripping?  I've 
seen it in places like J C Whitney but am not sure about the quality or 
fit of their stuff.

Catch you all later, and thanks again,

Michael Ecker

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 23:50:30 -0400
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: Aurora engine cost

Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 13:43:38 -0400
From: "Dan Roethel" <droethel@rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Tip of the Week #4146

I just got my OTC pulley puller that I found on eBay, good for Aurora
engines,
+++
Chris, what's an Aurora engine going for these days? I keep seeing a
complete engine advertized for $500.00 (needs block work)
in one of the local papers. Seems cheap for a all aluminum V-8.
==============
Well, I sold my last one for $100 at the Big Swap meet - centennial, no, 
105th? At grand River park anyhow. It was like new inside. Have had 
Northstar 4.6L's but no 4.0's since. I have some leftover 4.6 short blocks 
and such if you want, cheap. $100 for the lot, you come get it. That's scrap 
AL price.
- ----------------------
Chris Witt
1303 W. Miller Rd.
Lansing MI 48911

RocketScience442@hotmail.com

Cell 517-449-0432 weekends or short weekday calls or leave message.
Home 517-882-9747 thru 10-11pm MI time most days

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 01:50:43 -0400
From: Cutlass7276@netscape.net (Randy Hermsen)
Subject: tranny nightmares=new 58prts car

Hello
I had a bad tranny dream so i went out and got a 58 prts car today :
If i could only pull cash fer it out of a hat :O
Dime a dozen 57 trannys around but a 58 is diff and i hear much better.
 http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3596099/1085024052116_0524_005.jpg 
 http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3596099/1085577226767_0524_004.jpg 
 http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3596099/1086024528182_0524_011.jpg 
I sure did like his fully optioned conv 58
 http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3596099/1086992755601_0524_006.jpg 
Good luck!
Randy H.
Maple Ridge B.C.

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 01:06:28 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: tranny nightmares=new 58prts car

Randy,

> Dime a dozen 57 trannys around but a 58 is diff and i hear much better.


Actually, the trans you really need is a '55 Olds Hydra-Matic. (I think both
'54 and '56 will work, but I don't quite remember for sure.) That was the
core transmission used to build the B&M Hydro-Stick, the first successful
drag racing automatic. I had one in my '59 98 with her much modified
394/418. I quote from B&M:

"B&M Automotive Products was founded by Bob Spar and Mort Schuman (B&M) in
1953. In 1955, Bob's brother Don went to work for B&M. Soon after, B&M
produced the only patented 4-speed automatic racing transmission in history,
known as the famous B&M Hydro Stick. Through the 1960's B&M became the
dominant force in racing automatic transmissions."

If I had only known 32 years ago when I parted out my 98 that I would come
to Tucson and participate on the Olds List, I would have kept my
Hydro-Stick, and bought 5 more to save for this day. You need one, our
friend in New Zealand needs one, and one or two other guys need one.

Randy, if you had a B&M Hydro-Stick in your car, I am positive that you
would cut at least one full second off of your ET.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 01:09:15 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Spoiler install on '78 Cutlass deck lid

Michael,

> Oh, and what is the best place to get new trunk weatherstripping?  I've
> seen it in places like J C Whitney but am not sure about the quality or
> fit of their stuff.


Soff Seal
http://www.soffseal.com/

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 08:02:27 -0400
From: "Bill Reilly" <william.reilly@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Spoiler install on '78 Cutlass deck lid

I put one of those spoilers on an '86 Cutlass once. It looked real nice and
is a fairly straight forward install.  Be sure to use a hole saw when
cutting the underside of the deck lid to fit the nuts and sockets. I tried
using a regular 1/2" drill bit and it ripped the sheet metal. The only issue
I encountered was the pedestals were not tall enough so the wing tips would
rub the deck lid. I'm not sure if that would be problem on the '78. You
could try and make a spacer to move it up a little.

Bill Reilly


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Ecker" <ecker567@earthlink.net>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>; <oldsgmail@spots.ab.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 9:39 PM
Subject: Spoiler install on '78 Cutlass deck lid


> Picked up a decent spoiler from a mid-eighties Firebird this weekend,
> looks like a straightforward install on the deck lid of the '78.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 07:19:12 -0500
From: "Bob" <macs63rd@iols.com>
Subject: 1970 f85

If anybody wants to see a junk that should be sent to the liar liar
group it is on ebay 1970 f85 w-31 #2480032984 all gauges do not work
dash is cracked in 3 places door has a burn mark on both doors, rip in
seat, scrape on glass, car has been under water some where it is
a junk  oh and it comes with no spare or jack.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 08:35:35 -0400
From: "John Nasta" <email@johnnasta.com>
Subject: RE: 1970 f85

You seem to know a lot about this car. Have you seen it in person?


- -----Original Message-----

If anybody wants to see a junk that should be sent to the liar liar
group it is on ebay 1970 f85 w-31 #2480032984 all gauges do not work
dash is cracked in 3 places door has a burn mark on both doors, rip in
seat, scrape on glass, car has been under water some where it is
a junk  oh and it comes with no spare or jack.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 15:00:08 +0000
From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg_o@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Dash speaker grille removal

>OK - before I break something, is there a trick to getting the speaker 
>grilles out of the dash on a '78 Cutlass Supreme?  Do they just pop out, or 
>do I have to pull the dash pad?

IIRC, they do in fact just pop out, although they are held in by some rather 
scary blue clips which are tenacious; they're the same ones that hold the 
dash faceplates in. You'll have to pry upwards in some manner that won't 
crush the surrounding vinyl under whatever you're using for leverage; e.g. 
lay a wide flat (4" or so) putty knife (those big things you use for 
smoothing drywall joint compound) alongside the grille and either use _that_ 
to get the grille started outwards, or lay it flat to support whatever 
prying tool you're pressing down with.

Some models have a couple of screws holding the grilles down as well, but 
the screws are obviously visible through the windshield so I assume that's 
not the case here.

Once you've popped off the grilles, the speakers replace from above.

- -- Andy

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 17:19:21 +0000
From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg_o@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: tranny nightmares=new 58prts car

Sigh...

>I had a bad tranny dream so i went out and got a 58 prts car today :
[...]
>  http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3596099/1085024052116_0524_005.jpg

In Chicago terms, that's not a parts car; that's a daily driver. Wish I had 
it!

- -- Andy

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 13:29:50 -0500
From: "JBS" <jbschuren@houston.rr.com>
Subject: 350 rebuild cost

ballpark figure.... what should I pay for a stock like rebuild on my olds
rocket 350. The rear main seal is leaking badly and I figured I might as
well get her rebuilt.

Also... I'm in the houston, tx area of this great nation of ours. If anyone
knows a decent engine rebuilder that is good with an olds please let me
know.

TIA
jason b schuren

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 14:53:30 -0400
From: Tom Bejma <tomcb@prplastics.com>
Subject: RE: 350 rebuild cost

Don't know about the whole thing, but I can give you a piece by piece on
what I've had done for reference.

- - Heads redone with larger diameter valves (I didn't go stock ;-), 3 angle
valve job, bronze guides, surfaces refaced - $450
- - New valves - $180
- - Springs - $120
- - Roller tip steel rockers - $160
- - Lifters - $80
- - Cam - $100
- - All put together and Cam broken in on test stand - $300
- - Ear to ear grin listening to the exhaust note of a freshened up 1969 Olds
350 through open headers - Pricele$$

Tom Bejma
Harrison Twp., MI
69 Cutlass S Convertible (H/O Clone) with freshly painted gold 350 sitting
on engine stand


> -----Original Message-----
> From: JBS [mailto:jbschuren@houston.rr.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 2:30 PM
> To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
> Subject: 350 rebuild cost
> 
> 
> ballpark figure.... what should I pay for a stock like 
> rebuild on my olds
> rocket 350. The rear main seal is leaking badly and I figured 
> I might as
> well get her rebuilt.
> 
> Also... I'm in the houston, tx area of this great nation of 
> ours. If anyone
> knows a decent engine rebuilder that is good with an olds 
> please let me
> know.
> 
> TIA
> jason b schuren
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 12:24:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: chris smetana <grp442@yahoo.com>
Subject: installing piston pins

- --0-689906436-1085513082=:1862
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

ok, I've been a little busy with work but wanted to learn more about this from our discussion last week.  Basically from what I gathered is a rod heater is ok, as long as the rod isn't overheated.  since no one here on this list knows what temperature the rod heater that was used on the rods in my engine went to specifically, we can only speculate.  but obviously overheating a rod is bad.  Milton said he preferred/recommended freezing the pins before installing by putting them in a freezer overnight.  Milton, out of curiousity, any old freezer, or is there a certain temparture the pins have to be and there could be other methods rather than a freezer to achieve the desired temperature.  Also, I don't have the CSM memorized let alone sitting in front of me, but the passage you quoted didn't say anything about heating the rods, like you stated.  however, it didn't say anything about freezing pins either.  IIRC, it basically just stated, oil the pins, put in press, press them in.  I
 also found out some information from a 3rd party for lack of a better term.  They said a device with heat coils is used to heat the small end of the rod in order to install pistons pin.  So, it sounds like there are 3 methods to install pins.  Does anyone else have any insight?
 
Chris
grp442@yahoo.com

		
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<DIV>ok, I've been a little busy with work&nbsp;but wanted to learn more about this from our discussion last week.&nbsp; Basically from what I gathered is a rod heater is ok, as long as the rod isn't overheated.&nbsp; since no one here on this list knows what temperature the rod heater that was used on the rods in my engine went to specifically, we can only speculate.&nbsp; but obviously overheating a rod is bad.&nbsp; Milton said he preferred/recommended freezing the pins before installing by putting them in a freezer overnight.&nbsp; Milton, out of curiousity, any old freezer,&nbsp;or is there a certain temparture&nbsp;the pins have to be and there could be other methods rather than a freezer to achieve the desired temperature.&nbsp; Also, I don't have the CSM memorized let alone sitting in front of me, but the passage you quoted didn't say anything about heating the rods, like you stated.&nbsp; however, it didn't say anything about freezing pins either.&nbsp; IIRC, it basically
 just stated, oil the pins, put in press, press them in.&nbsp; I also found out some information from a 3rd party for lack of a better term.&nbsp;&nbsp;They said a device with heat coils is used to heat the small end of the rod in order to install pistons pin.&nbsp; So, it sounds like there are 3 methods to install pins.&nbsp; Does anyone else have any insight?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Chris</DIV>
<DIV><A href="mailto:grp442@yahoo.com">grp442@yahoo.com</A></DIV><p>
		<hr size=1><font face=arial size=-1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>Friends.  Fun. <a href="http://messenger.yahoo.com/">Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger</a>
- --0-689906436-1085513082=:1862--

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 15:08:42 -0500
From: "Nick Dean" <sausageman79@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Off Topic - S10 Transmission Problem (cont).

> After replacing the transmission I have one heck of a leak.  Can not
> tell (easily) where's it's coming from.  My understand (which is
> limited) could be a couple of different places:
>
> a) when the speedo cable connects (easy to tell, isn't there)
> b) where the detect cable hooks
> c) where the dipstick connects
> d) where the lines run into the tranny
> e) front seal of the tranny (behind the converter?)
> f) pan
> g) where the driveshaft connects
>
> Here's the problem.  After filling the tranny full and taking for a
> drive, have a HUGE, almost steady leak, coming from the passenger's
> side.  Leak will continue (regardless if the truck is running) til it
> loses around 2.5 quarts and then it stops.  Can drive it (doesn't
> shift very well) and will not leak.  On the passenger's side would be
> the lines, detect cable and dipstick.  Which one would make the most
> sense?  Dipstick?  I've check and it "feels" like it's in there
> alright?  If the lines were not tighten all the way, wouldn't the leak
> always?  Pan has been re-sealed and doesn't appear to the problem.
>
> Just wanted a quick opinion before I start checking stuff.

>
> Thanks,
> Dave


Don't forget to check your pressure test port plugs too.  If those aren't in
tight (or at all, as was my case) it'll pump the fluid out of there in no
time.  I can't imagine any reason you'd get that big a leak from the detent
cable or dipstick tube....they just go to the pan area where there should be
little to no fluid pressure.  The only way to really find out is to watch
for where it's coming out while someone else fills it up.  I'd suggest
wearing a full scuba mask while looking up there, but safety goggles is an
absolute minimum, obviously.

Nick Dean
SIU Automotive Technology, Carbondale, IL
'72 Cutlass Supreme (w/ a headcase of a 200-4R)
'88 4Runner (desperately desiring a 350 Rocket!)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 18:06:21 -0300 (ADT)
From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Subject: UNBOUNCE: Re: tranny nightmares=new 58prts car

Greg's having trouble posting... forwarding.

Greg Beaulieu    ab348@chebucto.ns.ca    Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada
          Olds List Admin Info: http://oldslist.oldsgmail.com

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:   Greg Tjosvold <tjosvold@mail.polar7.com>
Subject: Re: tranny nightmares=new 58prts car

>i went out and got a 58 prts car today

Randy,

What are the rear doors like on your parts car (rust/dent wise). I might be 
interested in buying them off you as mine have big dents in the "fin" and a 
lot of rust. Also, the driver side tail light housing/gas filler lid - 
mine's cracked. You selling?

Sincerely,

Greg

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 15:00:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bill Brooks <deaconblue1969@yahoo.com>
Subject: Keys locked in car (sorry, non-Olds)

Kids locked keys in 1995 Buick.  I have a slim jim but
not the knack.  Any ideas? 

TIA,
Bill

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 16:10:54 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: 350 rebuild cost

> > ballpark figure.... what should I pay for a stock like
> > rebuild on my olds
> > rocket 350. The rear main seal is leaking badly and I figured
> > I might as
> > well get her rebuilt.


Since you're going stock, I'd say talk to George about the possibility of
getting a complete rebuilt engine from NAPA. George has had good luck with
NAPA rebuilt engines, and they have a real warranty.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 16:41:16 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: installing piston pins

Chris & List,



> Milton said he preferred/recommended freezing the pins before installing
by putting them in a freezer overnight.  Milton, out of curiousity, any old
freezer, or is there a certain temparture the pins have to be and there
could be other methods rather than a freezer to achieve the desired
temperature.


Yes, any freezer would be enough. We had a kitchen refrigerator in the
machine shop. Some of our guys kept their lunch and drinks in the
refrigerator part. The freezer section made ice and froze piston pins and
cone roller bearing races for installation into front wheel hubs, trans
cases, and differentials. We kept the freezer at the lowest temperature it
would go, around 0 F.

Another way would be to use liquid nitrogen (LN2) at -320 F. The part would
get cryo-stress relieved at the same time. During my 15 years at the UofA,
there were several occassions where we froze bearing races or other items in
LN2 to install them quickly and cleanly in a machined part or housing.


> Also, I don't have the CSM memorized let alone sitting in front of me, but
the passage you quoted didn't say anything about heating the rods, like you
stated.  however, it didn't say anything about freezing pins either.  IIRC,
it basically just stated, oil the pins, put in press, press them in.


That's right. I grew up (12-18) in the local Olds/Chevy garage in my
hometown. The first generation Olds engines had floating piston pins, so
piston change on a rebuild was easy. The Chevies were all press fit pins.
When pistons were changed on a Chevy engine, the mechanic got out the
correct GM piston support fixtures and pin driving punch, put everything in
the hydraulic press, and did the job. No heat, but plenty of oil. They
didn't use cold either.


>  also found out some information from a 3rd party for lack of a better
term.  They said a device with heat coils is used to heat the small end of
the rod in order to install pistons pin.  So, it sounds like there are 3
methods to install pins.  Does anyone else have any insight?


I'm extremely uncomfortable applying any sort of high heat to a rod that's
greater than maximum engine heat. My problem with the heat method is making
absolutely sure the metal is never heated to the point when carbon in the
alloy is drawn to the surface of the metal, slightly altering the internal
molecular structural matrix. 600 F is enough to cause minor carbon content
changes. The use of normal cold has no affect on the metal, but I wouldn't
apply cryogenic temperatures to anything except alloy steels and aerospace
grade aluminum. Piston pins and bearing races are very hard ultra high
strength alloy steels. So are rods, or they should be. Cryo-stress relieving
rods would be a good idea.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 20:54:09 -0400
From: "Frederick Nissen" <fsnissen@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Keys locked in car (sorry, non-Olds)

> Kids locked keys in 1995 Buick.  I have a slim jim but
> not the knack.  Any ideas?
>

1995 is new enough that a GM dealer can punch a set of keys by the VIN if
none of the lock cylinders have been changed.  If you can give a bit more
info (model of the car) someone might be able to tell you the orientation of
the lock rod.  If you try the coat hanger route, it is sometimes easier to
hit the power lock button than to try for the manual release.

Regards,
Fred

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 20:24:05 -0700
From: geo.aigel@sbcglobal.net
Subject: Re: 350 rebuild cost

Jason:

The short block engine that I got through napa was built by a company 
called Fliteline (sp?) in Houston. It was around $650 w/o core. That 
company of course may be a company that does not rebuild engines for the 
general public, rather than distributors. Of course, nobody will build you 
an engine, even a short block for $650. So, if all you are looking for is a 
stock quality rebuild with a warranty, Napa may be the ticket.

I had added my old heads with a valve job, silicon bronze guides which was 
$240. Then I installed a comp cam cam (in place of the stock cam that was 
installed), removed the stock timing set and replaced it with a Summit 
double roller setup. That's another $160. Add the 1441 comp cam roller 
rocker kit for $200.

So, total, the engine ran about $1200-1300. While I added a few non-stock 
parts, this is a good ball park figure as a MINIMUM of what you'd have to 
pay if you do the long block assembly yourself.

The napa short block came with a 4 month 4k mile warranty, if I remember 
right. I have 12k miles on it now and it runs real well. Would do it again. 
They sell long blocks too. I think it would have been about $1200 for the 
long block. The long block has a much more extended warranty. On the order 
of a year and 12k miles. Note however, that there is no guarantee what 
heads it will come with, so if you want to avoid smogger heads, go the 
short block route and rebuild your heads.

I think 2k is a good ballpark figure for a rebuilt long block from a shop. 
Maybe 2500. If it is more than that, it better comes balanced, with high 
compression pistons and other tricks on teh bottom end...

George


At 01:29 PM 5/25/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>ballpark figure.... what should I pay for a stock like rebuild on my olds
>rocket 350. The rear main seal is leaking badly and I figured I might as
>well get her rebuilt.
>
>Also... I'm in the houston, tx area of this great nation of ours. If anyone
>knows a decent engine rebuilder that is good with an olds please let me
>know.
>
>TIA
>jason b schuren

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #4901
*********************************
