
oldsmobile-digest       Thursday, July 22 2004       Volume 01 : Number 4960



Re: # 8 Olds Heads???
Re: cam hardness
Re: # 8 Olds Heads???
Re: '65 442 shifters, and other years.
Re: '65 442 shifters
Re: Ford 289 valve Seals (Again)
Re: Ford 289 valve Seals (Again)
RE: Diesels And Serpentine Belt Drives
Re: Repo parts
RE:  Ford 289 valve Seals (Again)
RE: Repo parts
Re: dilemma - to rebody or repair
Please be precise and redundant in emails and phone messages.
Re: Diesels And Serpentine Belt Drives
RS Stock of HEADS and INTAKES on the shelf as of 7/21/04
Re: dilemma - to rebody or repair
The Last Olds built, and one of the 1st... is here at the Museum.
Re: SX value and performance opinions wanted
Re: dilemma - to rebody or repair
Build sheet option descriptions -  was: Re: SX value and performance opinions wanted

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:43:36 -0700
From: geo.aigel@sbcglobal.net
Subject: Re: # 8 Olds Heads???

>Does anyone know if a set of #8 heads for an olds 350 are worth
>picking up as spares??

I think they are, if they have all machinework done and are cheap!

 >bags from the mechine shop. He wants me to make an offer..... Are they
>smogger, low compression  or are they ok?

I think they are lower compression, but they have no smaller ports than the 
earlier heads. This is not so bad for a street engine. I had a 69 cutlass 
with #8 heads that ran great. As good as my 9:1 (measured) compression 
ratio C/S now which has #7 heads and small dish pistons.

I had a cracked #8 head before on a 68 cutlass, so it may indeed be, that 
these aren't as strong as the earlier heads? Just one datapoint. It was 
cracked in the ceiling of the chamber, between the valves...

I vote that you should buy them for spares, if you can get them cheap. 
Cheap being $150 for the pair, or less!

Cheers, George

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:15:02 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: cam hardness

> Anybody know what the typical hardness spec (Rc) is for a camshaft? A
friend
> has an aftermarket cam that he dented a lobe on with little effort and he
> says he can easily scratch the surface with a file. Is that normal? Maybe
> they forgot to harden it?


The majority of cams are cast iron billet. Yes, a cam is soft, relatively.
The lifters are much harder than the cam. That's exactly why used lifters
***cannot*** be run on a new cam or why used lifters cannot be mismatched to
different cam lobes than the ones they originally broke-in on. However. with
plenty of break-in lube, new lifters will run fine on a used cam, as long as
the cam lobes are okay. There is a break-in phosphate coating on the new cam
lobes, which ***must*** be supplemented by other paste and liquid
specifically formulated cam break-in lubricants. If your friend has already
dented a new cam lobe and then scratched the surface of another cam lobe
with a file, he has now ruined those two cam lobes and they will fail and go
flat if the cam is run. He can no longer use that cam, if he values his
engine.

High-end mechanical flat tappet racing cams and racing roller cams are made
out of billet steel. However, their mode of operation is quite different.
They are for all-out racing and must use either specially hardened
distributor drive gears or a bronze distributor drive gear.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:30:03 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: # 8 Olds Heads???

Go to http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/oldsfaq.htm and click on "heads." It will
tell you.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mearl Francis" <mearl.francis@gmail.com>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 5:35 AM
Subject: # 8 Olds Heads???


> Does anyone know if a set of #8 heads for an olds 350 are worth
> picking up as spares?? A buddy has them. He said he had them rebuilt
> several yrs ago and never used them. They are still in the plastic
> bags from the mechine shop. He wants me to make an offer..... Are they
> smogger, low compression  or are they ok?
> I have # 6's on my  1969 350 engine now.
> Thanks
> Mearl

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:50:54 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: '65 442 shifters, and other years.

> > No factory Olds shifter says "Hurst" on it.
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
> If this is true, I'd like to know where all the shifters that have both
the
> 442 and the HURST came from?  I have two of them, and I've seen two others
> at car shows, both in 1970 442's.  This is one of the questions I have a
> hard time getting a straight answer.  You are not the first person to tell
> me that Olds did not have a shifter with the word HURST on the 442's.


I've been trying to say this, but I don't really think I'm getting through.
At the speed shop from November 1969 to March 1975, we constantly averaged
50 sales of Hurst shifters per week, mostly 4-speed Competition Plus. You
show me a Hurst shifter, and I can instantly tell you if it is an
aftermarket Competition Plus for either a 4-speed or 3-speed from a speed
shop, or if it's factory. There are very easy ways to tell by looking at the
shifter and the linkage. That's something one simply doesn't forget.


> Does anybody know if Hurst made aftermarket 442 shifters?


No, they didn't. Aftermarket Hurst shifters are exclusively commercial. The
Competition Plus was and is the strongest 4-speed and 3-speed shifters ever
made. No one could beat Hurst's patent, and everyone who tried, failed to
beat a Hurst. Hurst shifters that came in factory cars were downgraded and
not the same quality as an aftermarket Competition Plus, which is still sold
to this day. The OEMs did try to get Hurst to give them Competition Plus
shifters to install on the assembly line, but Hurst flat refused. Hurst
would not undercut their warehouse and dealer network. Specialty shops like
Yenko for Chevys and Royal Pontiac for GTOs and Firebirds and Carroll Shelby
for Cobras installed Hurst shifters in their cars, but that was not the OEM
assembly line. That was in the direct hip-pocket of the end user.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:05:56 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: '65 442 shifters

>         I don't know about the 65 442 shifters, but on the later models,
like
> my 72, the Hurst shifter arm WAS connected to a Hurst Competition Plus
> shifter body, which I am almost 100% certain was factory installed.  As
far as that
> goes, the 71 442 that I got the 3 speed heavy duty M15 transmission out of
had
> the exact same shifter arm and body attached to it, only the shifter was
for
> a 3 speed, instead of a 4 speed.  So GM DID use Hurst Competition Plus
> shifters in later years, in my opinion.


Sorry Steve, but I absolutely have to disagree. No OEM from the '60s to '75
ever used a Hurst shifter on a production line vehicle. Hurst simply
wouldn't allow it. A modified OEM shifter to look like a Hurst shifter, yes.
We replaced way too many of those with real Hurst Competition Plus shifters.
If you have Competition Plus shifters on your cars, I'm positive some
previous owner installed them. Otherwise, I'd have to see detailed pictures
of them to identify what they are. We just did way too much of it. It's
something I can't forget.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:18:40 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Ford 289 valve Seals (Again)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "M. Gillespie" <mick442@rogers.com>
To: "Olds List" <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 4:34 PM
Subject: Ford 289 valve Seals (Again)


> I'm just in the process of rebuilding G heads for my 425 and wanted to use
> the softer material Ford seals.
> Unfortunately, I think I've gotten totally confused after Milt and Steve's
> discussion last week.
>
> Can anyone spell out exactly which 289 seals to buy? Are there two
different
> types, one for exhaust and one for intake? Do I need Hi-Po 289 seals or
the
> non perf. version?
> Most Olds gasket kits come with white ones and black ones and I've always
> used white for exhaust and black for intake. The heads I took apart had
all
> back seals.
>
> If I use Olds seals, I've also heard that it's better to use all white
> (Exhaust) because they're made from better material. Can anyone verify
this?
>
> Milt mentioned that the Ford seals are .5" long and .75" dia.

It's whichever matches these two seal applications with the above
dimensions.





The Olds seals
> are .45" long and the dia. tapers from about .78" to .84". Are the Ford
> differences significant?
>
> Mick Gillespie
> 1969 442 Conv. (clone)
> 1980 Toro
> http://members.rogers.com/mick442/oldspage.htm
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:21:36 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Ford 289 valve Seals (Again)

I hit the wrong button.


> I'm just in the process of rebuilding G heads for my 425 and wanted to use
> the softer material Ford seals.
> Milt mentioned that the Ford seals are .5" long and .75" dia.

It's whichever matches these two seal applications with the above
dimensions.

>From my 2001 CLEVITE engine parts catalog:

Ford 289
#216-1033 = intake and exhaust valve seal, except special 4 barrel carb
1963-1968, also 1962-1963 221 V8 and 1962-1965 260 V8 and 1968-1980 302
#216-1052 = intake and exhaust valve seal special 4 barrel carb 1963-1967

I would have to see them both to tell which ones I use.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:54:07 -0400
From: Michael Ecker <ecker567@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Diesels And Serpentine Belt Drives

"Based on those two pictures it appears the impellers rotate in the same 
direction -- I put them up side-by-side and the difference was the number of blades 
on the impellers."

Ken - look at the pictures again:

http://www.partsamerica.com/product_images/img/GMB/1301240.jpg

http://www.partsamerica.com/product_images/img/GMB/1301260.jpg

I know the impeller configuration is the same except for the extra two blades on the diesel pump, but look at the direction of the water paths in the housing.  The diesel pump is obviously designed to have the water come off of a counter-clockwise rotating impeller to flow to the inlet ports on the front of the block.  I think they tried to skimp a little by using a heavy duty 8-blade clockwise rotation impeller because it was less efficient than one that had been redesigned for counter-clockwise rotation but the extra blades gave it enough flow to get away with use in the application.  The NAPA site confirms that the diesel pump is a counter-clockwise rotation pump.

The 4.3L diesel had the same bore and stroke as the 350 Olds gas/diesel engines, just missing 2 cylinders.

The 350 diesel supposedly had a slightly shorter connecting rod than the gasoline engines, and I believe the diesel pistons had 3 compression & 1 oil ring rather than the gasoline 2 compression / 1 oil ring package.  pistons/rods in the diesel are also supposed to be significantly heavier than the gasoline parts.  You could take a 350 diesel engine and convert it to gasoline heads, etc. and see how it runs - would likely be a good low rpm engine but I doubt it would rev well.

______________

Oh....  and Chris, I'm sorry that I started this post on both Oldsmobile & OldsGMail lists but there are many good minds on each list and not all of them participate in both lists.

- -- 
Michael Ecker
Lehigh Acres, Florida
ecker567@comcast.net

1978 Cutlass Supreme - $500 purchase, being slowly fixed up
   (in line for V6-to-403 swap soon, and maybe 200-4R and gears...)

1979 Cutlass Supreme Brougham - becoming a circle track car
   (bought without title, had Certificate of Destruction so can never
    be re-registered, but will uphold the Oldsmobile name with honor)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:19:55 EDT
From: NUOLDSMAN@aol.com
Subject: Re: Repo parts

- --part1_82.112c76cd.2e3118fb_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 7/21/04 10:45:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
w30442@zoominternet
 writes:

> A while back, I read that there were reproduction W30 Intakes and Rally 
> pack
> gauges being made. Does anybody have the name of the companies or web sites
> for these?
> Thanks,
> Joe
> 
Joe,
      Sorry if this is redundant, as I'm on Digest, but you're talking about 
The Parts Place, which is located in Chicago.  Look on 442.com in the Parts 
For Sale section of the Classifieds.  You'll see their ad with an online 
catalog.  Good luck, hth,
Steve D

- --part1_82.112c76cd.2e3118fb_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 7/21/04 10:45:12=
 PM Pacific Daylight Time, w30442@zoominternet<BR>
 writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">A while back, I read that there=
 were reproduction W30 Intakes and Rally pack<BR>
gauges being made. Does anybody have the name of the companies or web sites<=
BR>
for these?<BR>
Thanks,<BR>
Joe<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
Joe,<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sorry if this is redundant, as I'm on Digest,=
 but you're talking about The Parts Place, which is located in Chicago.&nbsp=
; Look on 442.com in the Parts For Sale section of the Classifieds.&nbsp; Yo=
u'll see their ad with an online catalog.&nbsp; Good luck, hth,<BR>
Steve D</FONT></HTML>

- --part1_82.112c76cd.2e3118fb_boundary--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:32:37 -0500
From: "Stephen Reed" <stephenreed@austin.rr.com>
Subject: RE:  Ford 289 valve Seals (Again)

Mick,

>I'm just in the process of rebuilding G heads for my 425 and wanted to use
>the softer material Ford seals.
>Unfortunately, I think I've gotten totally confused after Milt and Steve's
>discussion last week.

>Can anyone spell out exactly which 289 seals to buy? Are there two
different
>types, one for exhaust and one for intake? Do I need Hi-Po 289 seals or the
>non perf. version?
>Most Olds gasket kits come with white ones and black ones and I've always
>used white for exhaust and black for intake. The heads I took apart had all
>back seals.

>If I use Olds seals, I've also heard that it's better to use all white
>(Exhaust) because they're made from better material. Can anyone verify
this?

>Milt mentioned that the Ford seals are .5" long and .75" dia. The Olds
seals
>are .45" long and the dia. tapers from about .78" to .84". Are the Ford
>differences significant?

>Mick Gillespie

It's been a little over 10 years since I did this as a day-to-day operation
in the machine shop, but I seem to recall that there were seals for the
intakes, and seals for the exhaust valves (AS SUPPLIED IN A FEL-PRO gasket
kit).  If memory serves correctly, the black concave seals were the ones
used on the exhaust valves, and the full umbrella designs were to be used on
the intakes.

When we/I would install seals on a set of heads that got the V&C, and
resurface treatment, we would install full umbrella seals as supplied buy or
supplier "Toke".

There were all sorts of variations for the 11/32 (.343") valve stems, with
regard to the O.D. and heights, to make sure they did not interfere with the
valve spring I.D..

When I installed new valve guides, I usually used the positive clamping
seals which clamped right to the top of the guide itself.

When you are referring to the seals, who is the supplier?


Steve Reed
'96 9C1 Caprice
'70 Ragtop Cutlass
'68 Cutlass (Unrestored)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 06:52:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: chris smetana <grp442@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Repo parts

- --0-544791004-1090504341=:29230
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I saw the intakes in person up at the Homecoming show and they are 
nice.  
The Parts Place has some nice items.


Dave Wyatt
70  4-4-2
67 Vista Cruiser
- -------------------------------
these were the intakes James Aiello and I had at the Homecoming.  James got them from where he works.  Since the Homecoming I have confirmed that the font of the numbers and letters on the W-30 intakes is not correct as compared to original intakes.
 
Chris
grp442@yahoo.com
 

		
- ---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
- --0-544791004-1090504341=:29230
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<DIV>I saw the intakes in person up at the Homecoming show and they are <BR>nice.&nbsp; <BR>The Parts Place has some nice items.<BR><BR><BR>Dave Wyatt<BR>70&nbsp; 4-4-2<BR>67 Vista Cruiser<BR>-------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV>these were the intakes James Aiello and I had at the Homecoming.&nbsp; James got them from where he works.&nbsp; Since the Homecoming I have confirmed that the font of the numbers and letters on the W-30 intakes is not correct as compared to original intakes.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Chris</DIV>
<DIV><A href="mailto:grp442@yahoo.com">grp442@yahoo.com</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><p>
		<hr size=1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
<a href="http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/">Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!</a>
- --0-544791004-1090504341=:29230--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:01:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: chris smetana <grp442@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: dilemma - to rebody or repair

- --0-1307891238-1090504907=:59936
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

illegal, unless it is disclosed if you sell the car.
- -------------------------
first, the car isn't for sale, unless someone offers ridiculous money
 
 

Here is my view: You must get a kick out of owning an original W-31. If 
that's the case, and if you change the body, you will not have an 
original 
W-31 any more. I would either keep the body or just sell the W-31 and 
build 
your Cutlass w/ 455 and all the works, making it a faster and better 
car 
than what olds could make in 1969.

George
- ----------------
George, while it IS your viewpoint, I have to agree with Chris Witt.  You ARE on dope.  a home built 69 455 Cutlass is better and faster than a 69 W-31 or ANYTHING Olds made back in 69.  LOL!!!!!   riiiiight.  Have you by chance seen the numbers W-31s can run in the quarter?  Now granted it's to each his own but having a car that can win First Place in a National show AND perhaps run hi 12s in the quarter, now THATS what I'm talking about.  Enter the W-31.  It also a) has the sleeper factor (whats a W-31?) b) it's a small block (who needs a big block) c) it's a W machine.  And in case anyone is wondering about the 69 H/O, Demmer built those, not Olds.
 
for the record, I still am contemplating putting one of the 455s I have into my 70 F-85, but the idea of a mega cubed small block diesel stroker (440ci?) excites me.
 
btw, George, did you ever go back and check the vin derivative stamping on your "chevy" engine in the 442?
 
Chris
grp442@yahoo.com
 
 

		
- ---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
- --0-1307891238-1090504907=:59936
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<DIV>illegal, unless it is disclosed if you sell the car.<BR>-------------------------</DIV>
<DIV>first, the car isn't for sale, unless someone offers ridiculous money</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Here is my view: You must get a kick out of owning an original W-31. If <BR>that's the case, and if you change the body, you will not have an <BR>original <BR>W-31 any more. I would either keep the body or just sell the W-31 and <BR>build <BR>your Cutlass w/ 455 and all the works, making it a faster and better <BR>car <BR>than what olds could make in 1969.<BR><BR>George<BR>----------------</DIV>
<DIV>George, while it IS your viewpoint, I have to agree with Chris Witt.&nbsp; You ARE on dope.&nbsp; a home built 69 455 Cutlass is better and faster than a 69 W-31 or ANYTHING Olds made back in 69.&nbsp; LOL!!!!!&nbsp;&nbsp; riiiiight.&nbsp; Have you by chance seen the numbers W-31s can run in the quarter?&nbsp; Now granted it's to each his own but having a car that can win First Place in a National show AND perhaps run hi 12s in the quarter, now THATS what I'm talking about.&nbsp; Enter the W-31.&nbsp; It also a) has the sleeper factor (whats a W-31?) b) it's a small block (who needs a big block) c) it's a W machine.&nbsp; And in case anyone is wondering about the 69 H/O, Demmer built those, not Olds.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>for the record, I still am contemplating putting one of the&nbsp;455s I have into my 70 F-85, but the idea of a mega cubed small block diesel stroker (440ci?) excites me.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>btw, George, did you ever go back and check&nbsp;the vin derivative stamping on your&nbsp;"chevy" engine in&nbsp;the 442?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Chris</DIV>
<DIV><A href="mailto:grp442@yahoo.com">grp442@yahoo.com</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><p>
		<hr size=1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
<a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/10/*http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail/static/efficiency.html">New and Improved Yahoo! Mail</a> - Send 10MB messages!
- --0-1307891238-1090504907=:59936--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:49:24 -0400
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: Please be precise and redundant in emails and phone messages.

I just got another email with vague subject "information needed"
Turns out to be a request for a 1972 98 rear bumper.

Folks, PLEASE put an exact specific subject line in serious emails. I 
generally toss such email unread. Anything from unknown sender with vague 
subject line is likely a virus or sales pitch or other useless waste of 
time.

Don't forget to leave, and then REPEAT, your phone number if you leave a 
phone message, too. Seems like I can never get it all written down the first 
time, or the phone messes up, or the kids make a racket exactly at that 
time.
- ----------------------
Chris Witt
1303 W. Miller Rd.
Lansing MI 48911

RocketScience442@hotmail.com

Cell 517-449-0432 weekends or short weekday calls or leave message.
Home 517-882-9747 thru 10-11pm MI time most days

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® 
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:14:17 EDT
From: KS7RACING@aol.com
Subject: Re: Diesels And Serpentine Belt Drives

Michael,

OK, don't I look like a dumbass:-)  I was focusing on the impeller and 
totally missed the housing!  Sorry 'bout that.

What year was the V-6 diesel offered?  I have manuals from 1968 through 1972, 
1978 & 1981 here, perhaps the 81 would show this critter.

As for the rod length, as far as I could tell the gas and diesel rods were 
the same, just a lot more beef through the center and that larger wrist pin 
hole.  I have a set of diesel rod/piston assemblies sitting out somewhere in the 
garage as well as a set of W31 TRW replacement pistons on regular 350 rods out 
of one of the 1992 race engines -- I'll have to compare them and get back to 
the List on this.

My thought was this engine would be assembled as cheaply as possible, using 
one of the several low-compression 350's I have sitting around the garage. 
Start out by just fitting the pistons to honed bores in the gas block and 
rebalancing the rotating assembly with the diesel rod/piston combination. With mildly 
prepped heads and thin gaskets you'd have to be in the W31 range, cam the 
engine for low-end grunt and gear the car so it wouldn't spin too hard.  If you 
had the chassis to allow you to drive into the corner deeper and pass from 2/3 
through to coming off the corner you'd be ahead of the others when their 
higher-revving engines begin to have the top-end power.

This project will have to be one of the test mules for Grace once I get her 
back together.  If it pops, all I'll have lost is a low-compression 350.  I do 
know a guy that is just getting a dyno set up (all he'll do is dyno work), 
maybe we could flog it on there to see what happens!

Take Care,
SrA Ken Snyder
Kansas City, Kansas

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:16:03 -0400
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: RS Stock of HEADS and INTAKES on the shelf as of 7/21/04

Had a number of inquiries lately, so had to actually inventory the heads and 
intakes on hand, extracted, on the shelf. More units still on various 
engines and in the cars of course.

Head - Qty [ea]  as of 7/21/04
==============
#1 - 4
#2 - 3
#4 - 6
#4 [plugged AIR] - 2
#5 - 4
#6 - 6
#7 - 6
#7a - 6
#8 - 7
#4A - 6
#7A - 1

A - 8
B [crusty] - 2
B [dash-1] - 1
B [sv] - 1
B [bv] - 4
C [broken] - 2
C [sv presumably] - 15
C [bv] - 2
C [bv, 67-442-stamp] - 2
D - 0
E - 7
F - 0
F [faux, from E's] - 2
G - 5
Ga - 6 [one -nice- pair]
H - 0
J - 7
Ka - 2

INATKE - Qty
===========
R - 2
E - 5
L - 3
W - 1
U - 2
B - 1
J - 3

SB Port Fuel Injecton - 1
SB Holley Street Dominator - 1
A5 [NOS] - 1
A4 - 4
#9 - 1
#12 - 2
#14 - 1

Inquire within if you need any of those..
- ----------------------
Chris Witt
1303 W. Miller Rd.
Lansing MI 48911

RocketScience442@hotmail.com

Cell 517-449-0432 weekends or short weekday calls or leave message.
Home 517-882-9747 thru 10-11pm MI time most days

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE 
download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:26:59 EDT
From: NUOLDSMAN@aol.com
Subject: Re: dilemma - to rebody or repair

- --part1_103.4af72d20.2e3136c3_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 7/21/04 10:45:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
geo.aigel@sbcglobal.net
 writes:

> It boils down to the originality. Is the car still the original car after 
> you switch the entire body, including firewall with vin plate etc. Most 
> people think that the car is NOT the original car and that vin swapping is 
> illegal, unless it is disclosed if you sell the car.

George, Chris,
        You are both wrong on this.  Imagine what would happen to you if you 
took your newly VIN'ed, nicely restored W 31 into any highway Patrol station 
in the country and tried to get them to verify it so you could get tags for it. 
 "Yes officer, I would like to get my car inspected, and oh, by the way, I 
put a new VIN tag on it because my old car was too rusted out to fix."  What do 
you think is going to happen to you?  Your car?  You are going to jail and the 
car would be impounded.  It is not legal to change VIN's on any car for any 
reason.  I know it is probably done more often than one would like to think, 
just as I am sure that there are more W 30's and W 31's on the road now than 
there was back in the early 70's.  
        I'm also sure that fake W cars are bought and sold all the time 
without being disclosed as being what they really are-another plain Jane Cutlass 
that was rebadged, or a 442 that was re-VIN'ed.  Imagine how you would feel if 
you just spent $30K for a car, only to find out later on that it is a fake?  
I'm not accusing you of trying to do this, as I know you probably think you will 
own this car forever.  I will say that situations change, things change and 
priorities change, and that one day you may decide to sell the car.  Are you 
going to tell the perspective buyer that it's a fake W 31 and sell it for half 
of what a real W 31 would sell for?  Most people wouldn't, as the reason they 
are selling the car for in the first place is that they need the money.  All 
you are doing by changing the VIN is watering down the surviving pool of genuine 
cars and adding another fake to deceive someone down the road.  I understand 
your problem and I can sympathize with you, but you should have thought about 
this before you bought the W 31.  I can't condone what you are suggesting and 
would strongly advise not doing it.  Especially after telling 650 people on 
this list, who would be possible future buyers of said car, if you ever decide 
to sell it in the future.  I'm sure this is going to start the flames, but 
right is right and wrong is wrong.
Steve D

- --part1_103.4af72d20.2e3136c3_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT  SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=
=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 7/21/04 10:45:12=
 PM Pacific Daylight Time, geo.aigel@sbcglobal.net<BR>
 writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT=
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">It boils down to the originalit=
y. Is the car still the original car after <BR>
you switch the entire body, including firewall with vin plate etc. Most <BR>
people think that the car is NOT the original car and that vin swapping is <=
BR>
illegal, unless it is disclosed if you sell the car.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
George, Chris,<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You are both wrong on this.&nbsp;=
 Imagine what would happen to you if you took your newly VIN'ed, nicely rest=
ored W 31 into any highway Patrol station in the country and tried to get th=
em to verify it so you could get tags for it.&nbsp; "Yes officer, I would li=
ke to get my car inspected, and oh, by the way, I put a new VIN tag on it be=
cause my old car was too rusted out to fix."&nbsp; What do you think is goin=
g to happen to you?&nbsp; Your car?&nbsp; You are going to jail and the car=20=
would be impounded.&nbsp; It is not legal to change VIN's on any car for any=
 reason.&nbsp; I know it is probably done more often than one would like to=20=
think, just as I am sure that there are more W 30's and W 31's on the road n=
ow than there was back in the early 70's.&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm also sure that fake W cars ar=
e bought and sold all the time without being disclosed as being what they re=
ally are-another plain Jane Cutlass that was rebadged, or a 442 that was re-=
VIN'ed.&nbsp; Imagine how you would feel if you just spent $30K for a car, o=
nly to find out later on that it is a fake?&nbsp; I'm not accusing you of tr=
ying to do this, as I know you probably think you will own this car forever.=
&nbsp; I will say that situations change, things change and priorities chang=
e, and that one day you may decide to sell the car.&nbsp; Are you going to t=
ell the perspective buyer that it's a fake W 31 and sell it for half of what=
 a real W 31 would sell for?&nbsp; Most people wouldn't, as the reason they=20=
are selling the car for in the first place is that they need the money.&nbsp=
; All you are doing by changing the VIN is watering down the surviving pool=20=
of genuine cars and adding another fake to deceive someone down the road.&nb=
sp; I understand your problem and I can sympathize with you, but you should=20=
have thought about this before you bought the W 31.&nbsp; I can't condone wh=
at you are suggesting and would strongly advise not doing it.&nbsp; Especial=
ly after telling 650 people on this list, who would be possible future buyer=
s of said car, if you ever decide to sell it in the future.&nbsp; I'm sure t=
his is going to start the flames, but right is right and wrong is wrong.<BR>
Steve D</FONT></HTML>

- --part1_103.4af72d20.2e3136c3_boundary--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:31:46 -0400
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: The Last Olds built, and one of the 1st... is here at the Museum.

Saw the Last One at the museum the other day...

2004 Alero

VIN = 1G3NF 52E84 C243165

Mitght wanna keep that info for your records.

100's of signatures under the decklid and hood, maybe thousands.
Out of that quagmire, in the few minutes I had, I found my brother's name 
[though he did not sign it], and our very own list member Bill Hutchison! 
Got pix of those of course.

Museum also has at this time, on loan from the Smithsonian, the only 
surviving first series curved dash.

"No flash pictures allowed"
therefore I got no pictures.
What's up with "no flash pictures" anyhow? Gonna damage the leather or 
something?
Compared to the time it has spent outdoors in it's life, I would thing flash 
photos is negligible.
- ----------------------
Chris Witt
1303 W. Miller Rd.
Lansing MI 48911

RocketScience442@hotmail.com

Cell 517-449-0432 weekends or short weekday calls or leave message.
Home 517-882-9747 thru 10-11pm MI time most days

_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:53:17 -0700
From: "Schopen, Kenneth" <kenneth.schopen@medtronic.com>
Subject: Re: SX value and performance opinions wanted

> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:17:16 -0400
> From: "Chris Carson" <fastcarson@prodigy.net>
> Subject: Re: SX value and performance opinions wanted
> 
> > This is true for the 71 model Olds SX, but they did make a 
> > few in 70 that had the W-32 package. The W-32 includes the TV 
> > code W-32 engine, OG code transmission, 3.23 gear.  Mine came 
> > with a positraction, FE2 suspension,
> > Sport Steering wheel, Tac and gauges, Hurst Dual gate, etc.
> >     http://members.trivergent.net/~cdhall/SXPage/SXPage.htm
> >     http://members.trivergent.net/~cdhall/
> 
> 
> So is that what a real-life 1970 build sheet looks like? 

Yup, the one from my '70 Supreme looked pretty much the same, water spots and all.

> Where did you find it in the car? I only found my "broadcast sheet" in my 71 
> which didn't tell me much except that the original convertible top was green 
> and it came with an AM/FM stereo (ironically, which is now missing.)

On my '70 Supreme it was on top of the gas tank, between the rubber isolator mat and 
the tank. It was very near the edge of the tank, and one side of the sheet got wet and 
turned brown over the years. On my '71 all I found was the broadcast sheet, and it was 
in the drivers seat back. 'Course, the '70 was a Fremont car, and the '71 is a Lansing 
car, and I have heard that the build sheets were rarely left in Lansing cars.

> And what's with "N47 VAR PWR STRG?" Variable ratio? I didn't 
> think they came in these cars???
> Chris

Again, Yup, my '70 Supreme had that option, too.

Kenneth
1971 Cutlass Supreme convertible
Phoenix, AZ

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:09:26 -0400
From: "Pat Swanton \"swanny\"" <swannys78@adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: dilemma - to rebody or repair

Hello all.

I took the cab off of an '87 Ch^vy C 20 and put it on a '78 chassis. I was
told in order to register and insure my truck I needed to put the original
'78 tag on the cab. Otherwise I would be false representing the year of the
vehicle completely. I was also told that I had to specify the work that I
did if I want to sell it. Some states regulate different laws and it is up
to the buyer/seller to administer the laws accordingly.

I could have left the tag from the '87 on the dash.  the '78 is on the door
jam. Therefore by  removing the tag from the '78 and putting it on the door
jam of the '87 cab, I didn't falsify what the truck actually was.

Imagine going to the parts store and getting chassis parts for an '87 when
in fact it's a '78.......

I understand your dilemma with same year cars and vin #'s. It should only
apply if the the car is misrepresented as a 442 or H/O and it is just a
regular Cutlass.

This not my opinion, but applicable laws to the state I live in.

I wouldn't want to buy a fake 442 or H/O either. Anybody can do the simple
tag switch.....It's a matter of integrity and honesty. I choose to be
honest.

Cheers
Pat Swanton
Winchester NH
1978 Cutlass Supreme
http://www.cardomain.com/id/swannys78


- ----- Original Message -----
From: <NUOLDSMAN@aol.com>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: dilemma - to rebody or repair


> George, Chris,
>         You are both wrong on this.  Imagine what would happen to you if
you
> took your newly VIN'ed, nicely restored W 31 into any highway Patrol
station
> in the country and tried to get them to verify it so you could get tags
for it.
>  "Yes officer, I would like to get my car inspected, and oh, by the way, I
> put a new VIN tag on it because my old car was too rusted out to fix."
What do
> you think is going to happen to you?  Your car?  You are going to jail and
the
> car would be impounded.  It is not legal to change VIN's on any car for
any reason

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:38:41 -0700
From: "Schopen, Kenneth" <kenneth.schopen@medtronic.com>
Subject: Build sheet option descriptions -  was: Re: SX value and performance opinions wanted

> > This is true for the 71 model Olds SX, but they did make a 
> few in 70 that had the W-32 package. The W-32 includes the TV code W-32 
> engine, OG code transmission, 3.23 gear.  Mine came with a positraction, 
> FE2 suspension, Sport Steering wheel, Tac and gauges, Hurst Dual gate, etc.
> >     http://members.trivergent.net/~cdhall/SXPage/SXPage.htm
> >     http://members.trivergent.net/~cdhall/

I noticed a couple of interesting things on your build sheet. My '70 Supreme 
had some of the same options, but they are labeled differently from yours. 

Your build sheet:
 N10 - W32 Dual Exh
 D55 - W26 Console
 W26 - D/Gate Console

My build sheet:
 N10 - Dual Exh
 D55 - Frt. Compartment Console
 W26 - D/Gate Console

Maybe the console codes are like that because mine was a Supreme and the console 
was standard equipment, with the W26 Dual Gate as an added option. I have noticed 
the SX has the "S" emblem on the hood tooth, so maybe this means it does not have 
the same standard equipment as the Supreme models, and maybe the console was an 
option to start with. ?? 

I don't have any ideas on why the dual exhaust option would be labeled differently. 

Kenneth
1971 Cutlass Supreme convertible
Phoenix, AZ

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #4960
*********************************
