
oldsmobile-digest       Sunday, August 8 2004       Volume 01 : Number 4979



Re: engine WON'T knock
Re: timing fluctuations and why the Olds design excels
Re: Ride Height Question
Buying: thoughts, an Olds vs a non-Olds...
1989 Olds Eighty Eight: Wiper Weirdness...
Re: 1989 Olds Eighty Eight: Wiper Weirdness...
Re: engine WON'T knock
Re: Buying: thoughts, an Olds vs a non-Olds...
72 455 exhaust manifolds
Re: 72 455 exhaust manifolds
Re: Buying: thoughts, an Olds vs a non-Olds...
Re: 72 455 exhaust manifolds
Re: 72 455 exhaust manifolds
engine WON'T knock
Re: engine WON'T knock
rattlecan sealer needed
Re: Buying: thoughts, an Olds vs a non-Olds...
wheel wells
Re: Ride Height Question
Re: engine WON'T knock
Re: 72 455 exhaust manifolds
Re: 72 455 exhaust manifolds
Re: rattlecan sealer needed
Degreeing a cam
Re: rattlecan sealer needed
Re: Degreeing a cam
Re: Ride Height Question
Re: 72 445 f/s
Re: 72 455 exhaust manifolds
Re: Degreeing a cam

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 16:16:37 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: engine WON'T knock

> I have been suspecting the reason one of my 403s
> (77 Toro) is on the lazy side, is cam timing.  If I
> degree it, can you tell me where it should be?


Straight up at Zero, as per the cam specs on the timing card from the
manufacturer. Cams are only advanced or retarded under specific
circumstances when the owner has a specific application or modification that
requires it. Unfortunately, cams, specifically aftermarket cams, can be
machined wrong, and the timing gear mounting alignment can be off. That's
the most common problem. Having the cam lobe profile itself wrong is much
less common.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 16:52:54 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: timing fluctuations and why the Olds design excels

> But, I think I recall reading in an article that, um, I think Dave Smith
> Engineering (gotta go dig up the magazine to be sure) makes a thicker cam
> button for Olds V8s because they do have a tendency to cam walk as much as
> 1/4 of an inch... which "plays havoc with your timing" if I recall right.


In my experience, the Olds stock cam button design is so superior, there
never is a problem. 1/4" play on an Olds cam button to timing cover plate is
ridiculous. Also, the intentional affect of the Olds reverse rotation
distributor is being ignored.


> Now, I don't recall it being mentioned if this is a particular thing that
> happens to Olds V8s at high RPM or low, or if RPM makes a difference or
not.


We've had this argument before, about 6-9 months ago. My response to Chris
Witt, sent today:

> So, let me get this right... the "clever" Chevy design not only thrusts
the
> distributor gear upwards against the distributor body... but thrusts the
cam
> FORWARD, against that cheesy stamped 18 gage steel cover? No way...


Yes way! That's why anyone building a Chevy engine for any kind of
performance use has to use an aluminum thrust bumper to keep the cam in
place during rapid acceleration and high RPM. The thrust bumper rides on the
backside of the front timing cover. Yes, I can't re-count the dozens of
small block Chevys I've seen that have had a hole worn through the timing
cover by the aluminum thrust bumper. Yes, aluminum through steel! But get
this. Stock, there's *nothing* between the front of the cam and the timing
cover, at least on pre-'75 small block Chevys. That was the basis of my
argument that Olds worked in the reverse, that was the main reason for
reversing the rotation of the Olds distributor, and the Olds thrust bumper
was just there as insurance. The Olds is a much better design. Finally, the
wear from the Olds thrust bumper that I've seen, even on very high mileage
Olds engines, has always been very minimal, indicating the Olds system works
very, very well.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 18:24:09 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Ride Height Question

Read through to below:

> One possible problem (and if it's a decent shop, I can't imagine they
would
> do this) would be if the control-arm bolts were tightened when the front
> end was still up in the air. That would "fix" the inner portion of the
> bushings in place with the control-arms in a drooped condition, and create
> some torsion on the control-arms when the car is at its normal
ride-height.
>
> Those bolts should be left loose until the car is sitting at its static
> ride-height, and then tightened when the car is on its wheels.
>
> You could try loosening the bolts/nuts and then torquing them to spec with
> the car on the ground, and see if that changes anything.

AND

> Perhaps they tightened the bolts before applying the weight of the car to
> the suspension? That would add a certain amount of preload thru the
> bushings, tending to keep the suspension arms at their lowest position,
and
> the car at its highest. It will also lead to loosened bolts. Ask them if
> they torqued the bolts with suspension weighted. If not, ask if they
torked
> to the correct figure, or just hammered the nuts home with the brutal air
> gun until all seemed tight. "Torque specs? We don't need no steenking
Torque
> Specs!"


We had a knock-down-drag-out argument over this issue many months ago. I
will always disagree violently.

It doesn't make one damn bit of difference where the suspension is when the
control arm attaching bolts are torqued down to spec.

Notice in the shop manual that only the lower control arms are specified to
be tightened with weight on the suspension, not the uppers. There's a very
good reason, but that reason should have shown the tech writers/engineers
who wrote the shop manual the fallacy of the instructions for the lower
control arms. Also, the above statement, "and create some torsion on the
control-arms," should also be a red flag as to that fallacy.

Neither the rubber suspension bushings or the steel center insert for the
bushing are designed to put torsion, tension, rebound reduction, or anything
else into the suspension system. The rubber bushings and the steel center
insert for the bushing simply center the attaching bolts and help maintain
reasonable front end alignment during jolts to the suspension system. The
rubber bushings also may cushion those jolts to some extent. That's all they
do.

What the engineers fail to realize is that after 50-100 miles, those new
bushings will loosen and friction resistance between the rubber bushing ends
and the steel center insert for the bushing and the steel frame mounts will
disappear. For those of you who have removed a set of control arms, did you
notice there was very little resistance to your hand in moving the control
arm up and down? Think of the force moving those control arms with 2000
pounds of front end weight, plus the geometric force vectors (fulcrum
effect) of front end suspension movement. I don't care what anyone wants to
say, those rubber bushings are moving very promptly against the steel frame
mounts with that force behind them. That's exactly why the factory nuts for
the factory bushing bolts are locknuts, because those bolts will eventually
rotate as the control arm goes up and down, following the rotational
movement of the suspension bushing. The smart move is to use both lock
washers and lock nuts on those bolts, for insurance. That also applies to
the rear control arm bolts. Furthermore, when installing new bushings,
whether rubber or polyurethane, the bushing *must* be lubricated so the new
tight bushing can be slid into the frame mount *without shaving any material
off of the new bushing*. That lubrication is critical. For poly bushings,
silicone grease is used. For rubber bushings, a good quality front end lube
is used, for it will not harm the rubber. The shop manual does not say that,
for it was not thought of. I can guarantee you that all good mechanics know
that and will put a thin layer of grease on the rubber bushings to prevent
any potential damage, before the control arm is installed. With the grease
present, there will be no friction between the new rubber bushing and the
steel frame mount.

Therefore, it does not make one single bit of difference whether or not the
front control arms are tightened with the car up in the air and the
suspension hanging down or with the car sitting on the ground. It just does
not matter.

These statements will no doubt start a firestorm, for it goes against
"conventional" wisdom.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 22:06:41 -0400
From: Joe Vahabzadeh <king_v@mindless.com>
Subject: Buying: thoughts, an Olds vs a non-Olds...

All,

	Ok, well, this will wander off topic to some extent.  But I'm (once again)
looking at a potential daily-driver that at least has some semblance of fun
to it.

	I've been considering practical cars and such, but I've come across two
that have good possibilities for both a daily driver and for a fun car.


	The first, which I have not yet seen, is a 1987 Olds Cutlass Ciera GT
Coupe, 3.8L with overdrive trans, buckets, gauge package, etc.  Very low
mileage (they say around 35K or so!), one owner, etc etc.  I have driven
some of the FWD A-bodies before with the FI 3.8L, and they're quite
impressive due to the really light weight of the vehicle.

	My concern is really just the possibilty of transmission trouble.  The
1986 Delta puked up the trans at only 80-odd-K miles, though the rest of
the vehicle was flawless.  On the other hand, I know the (almost?) same
trans in my 1989 Eighty Eight is still going strong at 129K miles without
so much as a hiccup.

	Were the trannies on the FWD cars as weak in 1987 as in 1986?
Particularly trouble prone?  Did they particularly change by 1989?  Or was
my 1986 just a fluke?  Sort of concerns me a bit because those FWD trannies
are expensive.


	The other car I'm looking at, which I've just come back from seeing, is a
1988 Ford Thunderbird with V8.  Nice simply because it's got the fox-body
chassis meaning that there's a lot of parts availability for future
potential upgrades.

	Quasi-dual exhaust, and I do have a few questions on it...  I know it's
the "low-performance" version of the 5.0L that's officially rated at 150hp
(160 with the quasi-duals?) and around, supposedly, 270 ft-lbs.

	Felt slightly underwhelming, but then again, I did notice that the car
didn't feel like it was moving as fast as it really was (hit 85 without
knowing it).  1 owner, well-maintained, but with some minor cosmetic
blemishes, and a minor flaw or two here and there, but otherwise a solid,
reliable-seeming car.  Guy's got his inspection reports from the past 2 or
3 years, and the car passes emissions with flying colors.

	Weird issue:  Is it normal for the Ford AOD trannies of that era to ALWAYS
have the lockup engaged in 3rd and 4th gear?  I'm so used to the way GM
does things, that I wondered if that was intentional design by Ford, or if
it was a flaw.  I've speculated on this before I know, but I never knew for
sure if it was by design.  I'm pretty sure that my 1989 Cougar did the
same, but it was a V6, and I know the transmission in *that* car had issues.


	Admittedly I've got a bit of bias, and am leaning toward the Olds.  But
the Olds is going for about twice as much as the Ford, no doubt due to the
low-mileage.

	Just want other people's thoughts and experiences with these cars, though,
or their corporate twins.  I think of the A-bodies, the Century was the
only other with the 3.8 available to it.

	I think I'll stop rambling now... just looking for
opinions/recommendations on the overall virtues/downsides of each of these
cars.


	- Joe Vahabzadeh

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 22:09:10 -0400
From: Joe Vahabzadeh <king_v@mindless.com>
Subject: 1989 Olds Eighty Eight: Wiper Weirdness...

Got a bit of an issue on my 89 Eighty-Eight.

It's got that system with the wipers where if you hit the washer fluid, it
will actually pump the fluid for an extra second or two more than you hold
the button, which I assume is normal.

It'll also run the wipers for about 4 wipes normally.

However, over the past year or so, it's been going to 5 and 6 wipes, and
when I shut off the wipers from normal use, it would wipe an extra time or
two more.

Now it's up to doing it about 9 times with a hit of the washer fluid, and
something like an extra 7 or 8 wipes after you shut the wipers off.


What causes/controls this?  Is it an easy fix, and adjustment, or requires
the replacement of one or more parts?

Thanks!


	- Joe Vahabzadeh

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 02:33:46 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: 1989 Olds Eighty Eight: Wiper Weirdness...

At 10:09 PM 8/7/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>It's got that system with the wipers where if you hit the washer fluid, it
>will actually pump the fluid for an extra second or two more than you hold
>the button, which I assume is normal.
>
>It'll also run the wipers for about 4 wipes normally.
>
>However, over the past year or so, it's been going to 5 and 6 wipes, and
>when I shut off the wipers from normal use, it would wipe an extra time or
>two more.
>
>Now it's up to doing it about 9 times with a hit of the washer fluid, and
>something like an extra 7 or 8 wipes after you shut the wipers off.
>
>What causes/controls this?  Is it an easy fix, and adjustment, or requires
>the replacement of one or more parts?

I haven't yet tried cleaning one of mine; but I believe the problem is that
the PC board inside the plastic case gets damp and collects dirt. This
changes the effective value of electronic components on the board,
resulting in all kinds of annoying behavior.

Normally, these things act up right after starting a car on a cold or damp
morning. But usually, within 10-15 minutes after the engine has warmed up,
they return to mainly-normal operation. I theorize the warm engine
compartment either warms the components, causing them to return to their
design values; or the engine compartment heat warms and dries the circuit
board, resulting in the same.

What's the cure? Everybody that winds up with one that quits working
normally simply replaces them. I broke mine and can't repair it to the
point where I can try out my theory by cleaning off the PC board (well....
I can, but I'd have to swap the old board into my new wiper/washer assy
which I'm too lazy to do now).

If you REALLY wanna see one of these things act up incredibly abnormally,
try removing the screw that holds the ground strap between the wiper and
washer assy. That will cause the dang thang to run continuously and you'll
get weird speeds at unexpected times. It will wash for-bleeping ever, never
stopping until the fluid tank is empty  ;o\  I found this out when
replacing my old one. While trying to remove one of the electrical
connectors, the harness connector yanked out the two tabs mounted on the
solenoid, ripping the wire out of the solenoid. Then when I was unbolting
the whole thing, I discovered one screw appeared to be shorter than the
other two. That seemed odd, but I didn't know any better.

It wasn't until I was installing the new one that I discovered that that
shorter screw was actually shorter because it had broken off in the
firewall. This screw happened to be the one holding the ground strap. So my
whole problem was that that ground strap was no longer making contact
because the screw broke  ;o((((((

SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 22:32:15 -0400
From: Michael Ecker <ecker567@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: engine WON'T knock

"Just to be sure, you might wanna first see to it that the TDC mark 
reads at zero when the piston is really at TDC."

You know, this brings up another possibility - perhaps the outer ring on 
the harmonic balancer has slipped causing the timing to  not be where 
you (and your timing light) think it is....  only way to be sure is to 
verify that the balancer's timing line lines up with the timing tab's 
zero mark when the engine is actually AT top dead center on cylinder 
#1.  Definitely a must-check item.

- -- 
Michael Ecker
Lehigh Acres, Florida
ecker567@comcast.net

1978 Cutlass Supreme - $500 purchase, being slowly fixed up
   (in line for V6-to-403 swap soon, and maybe 200-4R and gears...)

1979 Cutlass Supreme Brougham - becoming a circle track car
   (bought without title, had Certificate of Destruction so can never
    be re-registered, but will uphold the Oldsmobile name with honor)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 19:40:36 -0700
From: geo.aigel@sbcglobal.net
Subject: Re: Buying: thoughts, an Olds vs a non-Olds...

Joe:

I would NEVER buy a FWD GM product. Relatively large displacement paired 
with a FWD trans is recipe for disaster.

The T bird is a great car, as long as you stay away from the V6 which blows 
head gaskets. The 5.0 is a bullet proof engine. I can not help with the AOD 
question you had.

Why not look at RWD Cutlasses with the bigger V8?

Cheers, George

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 19:51:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matt Crumley <crumleym_50@yahoo.com>
Subject: 72 455 exhaust manifolds

Hello list,
<<<I have a 72 455 .I'm asking $275 including the
crank.  Crank can be purchased seperately for $75.
Must be picked up.  It's a cast crank from a 73 455. 
It's in STL and would have to be picked up.  Act soon
b/c otherwise I'm going to strip it down to the
shortblock and haul it to the junkyard.  Hit me
privately at crumleym_50@yahoo.com.>>>

Also I have one exhaust manifold that won't come off. 
One of the bolts will break loose with a 9/16 socket. 
The other 4 are smaller and have the locking tabs. 
I'm puzzled.  Any help appreciated.

BTW PB Blasters kicks but on old bolts.

Matt 
STL



	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 19:56:13 -0700
From: geo.aigel@sbcglobal.net
Subject: Re: 72 455 exhaust manifolds

Impact wrench?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 23:06:04 -0400
From: Joe Vahabzadeh <king_v@mindless.com>
Subject: Re: Buying: thoughts, an Olds vs a non-Olds...

At 07:40 PM 08/07/2004 -0700, George wrote:
>Why not look at RWD Cutlasses with the bigger V8?

Availability, or, more accurately, lack thereof.  Simply haven't been able
to find them.

	- Joe Vahabzadeh

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 23:04:22 EDT
From: TJPROD@aol.com
Subject: Re: 72 455 exhaust manifolds

- -------------------------------1091934262
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

six point impact socket and a very good impact wrench and air  compressor.
.......... or just let it soak in PB longer

- -------------------------------1091934262
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1458" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
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<DIV>six point impact socket and a very good impact wrench and air=20
compressor.</DIV>
<DIV>..........&nbsp;or just let it soak in PB longer</DIV></FONT></BODY></H=
TML>

- -------------------------------1091934262--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 03:19:14 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: 72 455 exhaust manifolds

At 07:51 PM 8/7/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>Also I have one exhaust manifold that won't come off. 
>One of the bolts will break loose with a 9/16 socket. 
>The other 4 are smaller and have the locking tabs. 
>I'm puzzled.  Any help appreciated.
>
>BTW PB Blasters kicks but on old bolts.

Had that on my '67 425. Wound up having to drill off the bolt heads to get
the manifold off, because the heads were rounded. Then visegrips, a torch
and PB Blaster got them all loose and out.

SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 23:27:32 -0500
From: bcroe@juno.com
Subject: engine WON'T knock

Since I got the engine used, there is no cam card, 
which is why I'm asking for suggestions.  It might 
be a stock cam, bad timing chain.  

I don't have to worry about the timing mark, my
FluiDampers can't ever slip.  Bruce Roe

Michael Ecker says, 

You know, this brings up another possibility - perhaps 
the outer ring on the harmonic balancer has slipped 
causing the timing to  not be where you (and your 
timing light) think it is....  only way to be sure is to 
verify that the balancer's timing line lines up with the 
timing tab's zero mark when the engine is actually AT 
top dead center on cylinder 
#1.  Definitely a must-check item.

- -- 


7 Aug 2004 "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com> writes:
> > I have been suspecting the reason one of my 403s
> > (77 Toro) is on the lazy side, is cam timing.  If I
> > degree it, can you tell me where it should be?
> 
> 
> Straight up at Zero, as per the cam specs on the timing card from 
> the
> manufacturer. Cams are only advanced or retarded under specific
> circumstances when the owner has a specific application or 
> modification that
> requires it. Unfortunately, cams, specifically aftermarket cams, can 
> be
> machined wrong, and the timing gear mounting alignment can be off. 
> That's
> the most common problem. Having the cam lobe profile itself wrong is 
> much
> less common.
> 
> Milton Schick

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 22:15:43 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: engine WON'T knock

In order to degree the cam, you have to know what the cam's specs are
supposed to be. Otherwise, you will just be guessing. It is possible to
guess, but you will have to have done this before. If you do degree your cam
and map the specs for an intake cam lobe and an exhaust cam lobe, one of us,
Michael, Chris, Steve, Paul, myself, or someone else may be able to look at
the data and deduce where your cam sits for timing.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com


- ----- Original Message -----
From: <bcroe@juno.com>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 9:27 PM
Subject: engine WON'T knock


> Since I got the engine used, there is no cam card,
> which is why I'm asking for suggestions.  It might
> be a stock cam, bad timing chain.
>
> I don't have to worry about the timing mark, my
> FluiDampers can't ever slip.  Bruce Roe
>
> Michael Ecker says,
>
> You know, this brings up another possibility - perhaps
> the outer ring on the harmonic balancer has slipped
> causing the timing to  not be where you (and your
> timing light) think it is....  only way to be sure is to
> verify that the balancer's timing line lines up with the
> timing tab's zero mark when the engine is actually AT
> top dead center on cylinder
> #1.  Definitely a must-check item.
>
> --
>
>
> 7 Aug 2004 "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com> writes:
> > > I have been suspecting the reason one of my 403s
> > > (77 Toro) is on the lazy side, is cam timing.  If I
> > > degree it, can you tell me where it should be?
> >
> >
> > Straight up at Zero, as per the cam specs on the timing card from
> > the
> > manufacturer. Cams are only advanced or retarded under specific
> > circumstances when the owner has a specific application or
> > modification that
> > requires it. Unfortunately, cams, specifically aftermarket cams, can
> > be
> > machined wrong, and the timing gear mounting alignment can be off.
> > That's
> > the most common problem. Having the cam lobe profile itself wrong is
> > much
> > less common.
> >
> > Milton Schick
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 03:08:05 -0500
From: Karl Erik Aune <425power@ameritech.net>
Subject: rattlecan sealer needed

'ello

Recap:  am storing a 1965 Ninety Eight sedan outside; unsheltered, but 
covered.

A month ago I realized that an ancient bondo patch located at the middle 
of the passenger side front door had split and was pulling away from the 
hull.

My intention is to remove the offensive bondo, clean the area, and seal 
to preserve it for future attention.
Otherwise there are a few spots where the paint (which appears to be 
OEM) is in stages of flaking off of the hull, these will merit similar 
preventative measures.

Is there anything commonly available that would be suitable for this?

thanks

K

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 01:28:15 -0700
From: Scott Alfter <scott@alfter.us>
Subject: Re: Buying: thoughts, an Olds vs a non-Olds...

On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 10:06:41PM -0400, Joe Vahabzadeh wrote:
> 	The first, which I have not yet seen, is a 1987 Olds Cutlass Ciera GT
> Coupe, 3.8L with overdrive trans, buckets, gauge package, etc.  Very low
> mileage (they say around 35K or so!), one owner, etc etc.  I have driven
> some of the FWD A-bodies before with the FI 3.8L, and they're quite
> impressive due to the really light weight of the vehicle.
> 
> 	My concern is really just the possibilty of transmission trouble.  The
> 1986 Delta puked up the trans at only 80-odd-K miles, though the rest of
> the vehicle was flawless.  On the other hand, I know the (almost?) same
> trans in my 1989 Eighty Eight is still going strong at 129K miles without
> so much as a hiccup.

My grandfather has an '85 98 with the same drivetrain you're considering.
IIRC, the tranny has needed a fair amount of work on it over the years...
might even have been replaced once or twice.  I drove it last fall on a
visit back east, and it did have a surprising amount of get-up-and-go for
such a small engine.  In an A-car, it should be more of the same.

One other thing I noticed was that it had a fair amount of wheel-bearing
noise, but it seems most GM wheel-bearing/hub units get noisy after a few
tens of thousands of miles.  My '83 Celebrity did the same thing, and even
my parents' '01 Tahoe is making some of the same kind of wheel-bearing noise
now...it's RWD, but the front-wheel setup on it is the same as on FWD and
4WD vehicles (there's a hole where a CV joint would poke through if it were
4WD).  That's a big part of why I've sworn off of wrong-wheel-drive for
future purchases (not that I expect to be back in the market for a while).

  _/_  Scott Alfter (scott@alfter.us)
 / v \ '77 Cutlass Supreme Brougham
(IIGS( http://alfter.us/            Top-posting!
 \_^_/ rm -rf /bin/laden            >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 05:35:32 -0500
From: "Bob" <macs63rd@iols.com>
Subject: wheel wells

Does anybody know how to take paint off of plastic wheel wells (w-31)
without wrecking them, do not know why they were painted in the first
place.    Also looking for a knob  for a 1970  AM-FM radio.

Bob
1970 W-31

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 07:16:12 -0400
From: Robert Barry <rbarry@postoffice.providence.edu>
Subject: Re: Ride Height Question

At 06:24 PM 8/7/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>What the engineers fail to realize is that after 50-100 miles, those new
>bushings will loosen and friction resistance between the rubber bushing ends
>and the steel center insert for the bushing and the steel frame mounts will
>disappear. For those of you who have removed a set of control arms, did you
>notice there was very little resistance to your hand in moving the control
>arm up and down?

Milton,

Are you saying that factory rubber bushings rotate on the steel tube that 
passes through the middle? I know the friction on the ends would be 
negligible, but I was always under the impression that the middle was 
bonded to the tube. Granted, the aftermarket poly bushings are different, 
but all the bushings I've ever used had the bushing fixed to that center 
tube, so that when th arms were bolted down the only movement was from the 
rubber twisting, not from the bushing spinning.

Again, not for argument, just for education. (mine)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 07:10:53 -0400
From: "Frederick Nissen" <fsnissen@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: engine WON'T knock

> Since I got the engine used, there is no cam card,
> which is why I'm asking for suggestions.  It might
> be a stock cam, bad timing chain.
>
> I don't have to worry about the timing mark, my
> FluiDampers can't ever slip.  Bruce Roe

- --------------------

Bruce,

What brand of timing chain set did you put in it?  Virtually the only one I
have found to be consistently accurate is Cloyes.

Regards,
Fred

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 07:08:18 -0400
From: Robert Barry <rbarry@postoffice.providence.edu>
Subject: Re: 72 455 exhaust manifolds

At 03:19 AM 8/8/2004 +0000, you wrote:
>At 07:51 PM 8/7/2004 -0700, you wrote:
> >Also I have one exhaust manifold that won't come off.
> >One of the bolts will break loose with a 9/16 socket.
> >The other 4 are smaller and have the locking tabs.
> >I'm puzzled.  Any help appreciated.

With the corrosion reducing the head-size of the bolts, I don't even try 
with the 9/16" socket anymore; I just bang a 13mm impact socket on there- 
bingo, no stripped head.

I've gotten pretty good at drilling out and helicoiling those 
exhaust-manifold holes...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 08:24:28 EDT
From: TJPROD@aol.com
Subject: Re: 72 455 exhaust manifolds

- -------------------------------1091967868
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Craftsman makes a great bolt out tool, they are about 20 bucks per set  of 
three.

- -------------------------------1091967868
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1458" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>Craftsman&nbsp;makes a great bolt out tool, they are about 20 bucks per=
 set=20
of three.</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

- -------------------------------1091967868--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 08:27:08 -0400
From: OldsEnuf@webtv.net (Mark Sopp)
Subject: Re: rattlecan sealer needed

K,
  I dabble in antique woodworking tools and have dscovered that
McCloskey clear lacquer in a rattle can seals old rusty timber saws
perfectly.
  I made a sign of one and it sits in the weather year round and still
looks great after 2 years.
  Good stuff,seals anything and can be recoated if necessary,
  Flat,Satin,Semi...and Gloss are out there..$3-4 bucks a can.
   Knew a used car dealer who used to shoot the engine compartments for
that factory fresh look....it works.

Regards,
Markas

http://community.webtv.net/vfquick442/My1970442

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 08:32:08 -0400
From: "Dave Cullen" <david.cullen@snet.net>
Subject: Degreeing a cam

> In order to degree the cam, you have to know what the cam's specs are
> supposed to be. Otherwise, you will just be guessing. It is possible to
> guess, but you will have to have done this before.

Can a cam be checked with the engine in the car to determine the extent of
timing chain wear? Assume a stock engine and factory cam.

drc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 08:40:05 -0400
From: "Dave Cullen" <david.cullen@snet.net>
Subject: Re: rattlecan sealer needed

> 'ello

Mornin', K

> My intention is to remove the offensive bondo, clean the area, and seal
> to preserve it for future attention.
> Otherwise there are a few spots where the paint (which appears to be
> OEM) is in stages of flaking off of the hull, these will merit similar
> preventative measures.

You will likely sand to bare metal during that operation. Auto paint stores
sell "etch" primer in a spray can that'll bite well and give topcoat
something to stick to. Follow with whatever DupliColor or Krylon spray can
matches or suits your fancy.

drc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 08:58:51 -0400
From: "Frederick Nissen" <fsnissen@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Degreeing a cam

> Can a cam be checked with the engine in the car to determine the extent of
> timing chain wear? Assume a stock engine and factory cam.

Dave,

The easiest way to check timing chain wear on an Olds V8 is to pull the
distributor cap and use a socket and breaker bar to rock the crank.  Note
how many degrees of crank movement you can get before the distributor rotor
moves.

Regards,
Fred

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 10:43:26 -0300 (ADT)
From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Ride Height Question

On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Infinite Space Systems, Inc. wrote:
<snip> 
> Therefore, it does not make one single bit of difference whether or not the
> front control arms are tightened with the car up in the air and the
> suspension hanging down or with the car sitting on the ground. It just does
> not matter.

I have to admit (not knowing much about this to start with) that I found
it hard to believe that the bolts and bushings could cause the rise in
ride height given the amount of weight on the front end. I suspect your
original explanation of the split bushing causing a sag is a good part of
this. I tried checking to see if the springs were properly seated in the
pocket but couldn't really tell. Milton, you're correct, the amount of
change is about 1".

I may have an issue with the springs themselves. About 9-10 years ago I
had them replaced. There was some confusion at the time here locally re.
getting the right part. I'm wondering now if they are the right ones, and
if this was masked all that time by a failed set of bushings. Maybe I
should just drop a 455 into the front and let that take care of the ride
height. :) Failing that, I suppose I could try something to raise the rear
slightly to make it more level. 

Greg Beaulieu    ab348@chebucto.ns.ca    Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada
          Olds List Admin Info: http://oldslist.oldsgmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 10:01:38 -0400
From: "ron fama" <77w30442@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: 72 445 f/s

how much to ship it to nj
ron
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matt Crumley" <crumleym_50@yahoo.com>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 7:26 PM
Subject: 72 445 f/s


> Hello list,
> I have a 72 455 out of a toronado for sale.  It is
> complete minus the carb.  It needs a crank b/c someone
> welded the balancer to it.  I have an extra crank that
> has never been cut or turned for a rebuild that goes
> with the motor.  I'm asking $275.  Crank can be
> purchased seperately for $75. Must be picked up.  It's
> a cast crank from a 73 455.  It's in STL and would
> have to be picked up.  Act soon b/c otherwise I'm
> going to strip it down to the shortblock and haul it
> to the junkyard.  I just don't need this big
> paperweight in my garage. (Smaller paperweights like
> heads, toro oil pan and carb are ok:):). I don't even
> have a car for it at the moment.  Hit me privately at
> crumleym_50@yahoo.com.
> 
> Matt C.
> STL, MO
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 10:02:40 -0400
From: "ron fama" <77w30442@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: 72 455 exhaust manifolds

lots of heat and a smaller socket and socket and hammer
ron
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matt Crumley" <crumleym_50@yahoo.com>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 10:51 PM
Subject: 72 455 exhaust manifolds


> Hello list,
> <<<I have a 72 455 .I'm asking $275 including the
> crank.  Crank can be purchased seperately for $75.
> Must be picked up.  It's a cast crank from a 73 455. 
> It's in STL and would have to be picked up.  Act soon
> b/c otherwise I'm going to strip it down to the
> shortblock and haul it to the junkyard.  Hit me
> privately at crumleym_50@yahoo.com.>>>
> 
> Also I have one exhaust manifold that won't come off. 
> One of the bolts will break loose with a 9/16 socket. 
> The other 4 are smaller and have the locking tabs. 
> I'm puzzled.  Any help appreciated.
> 
> BTW PB Blasters kicks but on old bolts.
> 
> Matt 
> STL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 13:59:26 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: Degreeing a cam

At 08:32 AM 8/8/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>> In order to degree the cam, you have to know what the cam's specs are
>> supposed to be. Otherwise, you will just be guessing. It is possible to
>> guess, but you will have to have done this before.
>
>Can a cam be checked with the engine in the car to determine the extent of
>timing chain wear? Assume a stock engine and factory cam.

Easily.

Wipe off the timing marks on the balancer and timing mark indicator. Put
your 1-1/8" socket/rachet on the crank bolt and turn the crank one
direction ONLY to bring the balancer mark to TDC. Remove the dist cap and
fasten a long piece of stiff wire (18" or so) under one the rotor's
mounting screws. Bend the wire so it points to some easily-recognizable
feature on the engine so you can see when the wire moves the least bit. Now
note exactly where the timing mark is, then rock the crank back and forth
with the rachet until the wire begins to move. Note the timing marks when
the crank's rocked one way and when rocked the other way. The difference in
the timing is the slop at the 
crank. Multiply that by two to get the total timing slop of the chain.

This's much easier to do with the plugs out such as when yer changing the
plugs. Even at 225K miles, my 307 showed 160-180 PSI compression pressure,
not real easy to rotate with the fan still in the way (my right little
finger's finally grown new skin over the last "incident"  ;o(

My '88 200K+ 307 showed about 12 degrees slop three years ago. A month ago
at around 235K miles, it was up to about 14 degrees, time to replace the
timing gear/chain set. Still runs great, gets 18.5 second quarter mile
times in a 4600 lb boatanchor and 20+ mpg on the highway.

SteveH

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #4979
*********************************
