
oldsmobile-digest        Monday, July 26 2004        Volume 01 : Number 4964



Re: PB Blaster and MOOG
Re: PB Blaster and MOOG
Re: Re-bodied car
Diesels And Serpentine Belt Drives
Fed-Mogul Has Been In Bankruptcy
Re: Can you identify this Olds?
Re: Fed-Mogul Has Been In Bankruptcy
1971 Factory Paint
Re: Re-bodied car (way long)
Re: Fed-Mogul Has Been In Bankruptcy
350 pistons availability
Dope fiends among us?
more VIN swapping
Re: (rant) Where's a moron when you don't need one? Right next to you!
Re: Engine needed
Re: Build sheet option descriptions
Re: Dope fiends among us?
my last words on the rebody/repair debate
Re: Build sheet option descriptions
Re: my last words on the rebody/repair debate

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:30:51 -0400
From: "Randy Geisel" <rocket455@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: PB Blaster and MOOG

 >It seems that Federal-Mogul MOOG's main warehouse burned
> down about 9 months ago.

Yep, the Tennessee warehouse.....100,000 sq ft of melted Moog parts. If this
helps....the parts I haven't been able to get through CarQuest for my
customers, I've actually found at Pep-Boys under the Federal Mogul label.

Parts look identical......

Randy

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:34:36 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: PB Blaster and MOOG

At 10:11 AM 7/25/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>Two interesting items I just ran across.
>
>First, Tucson now has PB Blaster available........
.......
>My first use, free up the sluggish shaft on the fan motor on one of 
>our room air conditioners.

My experience with PB Blaster is ambivalent. While it works better than
WD40 at freeing up rusted stuff that you can heat with a torch. I don't
find it working as well as a lubricant, however. When its carrier
dries/evaporates, it seems to leave a sticky residue. While WD40 doesn't
really lubricate, either, it at least doesn't become sticky like that.

So I find uses for either, depending on what I need to do.

SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:28:37 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: Re-bodied car

At 09:14 AM 7/25/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>> Yes', you could rebody, but then that nasty issue of illegal VIN swapping
>> rears it's ugly head.
>
>
>I haven't said anything about this issue, because the argument seemed wrong.
>As an example, I don't know how many pickups I've seen in my life that were
>rolled, smashing the cab flat to the bottom of the windows. The only way to
>repair that kind of damage is to ***replace the entire cab and transfer the
>VIN tag from the old cab to the new cab***. It's done all of the time. The
>tags are switched. Bingo, a repaired truck. The exact same thing applies to
>a car. That's what was done when I lived in Missoura, and it's what's done
>in Arizona. It simply appears to not be a problem.

That's what's done in Connecticut, too. Not positive about Mass but think I
heard they  do it, also. The way Connecticut determines which VIN to use is
by the proportion of parts on the car. Who knows how they determine that
;o| Trying to find the web site references but they've dumbed-down a lotta
stuff in the last several years  ;o(((((

SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 15:27:50 -0500
From: bcroe@juno.com
Subject: Diesels And Serpentine Belt Drives

My 82 V6 Diesel had a serpentine belt (currently has a 403 gas 
engine).  While the General had his reasons, I fail to understand 
why anyone would want to convert to a serpentine belt.  I have 3 V 
belts in the 81-88 belt arrangement.  Cheap, simple to change, no 
slipping.  If a power steering hose goes, I take off the belt and get 
home without power.  Serpentine, you are going nowhere today.  
Same story for a failed A/C compressor clutch bearing (happened 
to me 4 states away, I still got home).  Bad idler, serpentine is dead.

Bruce Roe


22 Jul 2004  Michael Ecker <ecker567@comcast.net> writes:
> The diesel pump is obviously designed to have the water come 
> off of a counter-clockwise rotating impeller 
> to flow to the inlet ports on the front of the block. 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 01:05:51 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Fed-Mogul Has Been In Bankruptcy

See: http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/mcclure23e_20040723.htm

According to this story, F-M went into Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in
2001 but expects to emerge this year. But they've also been losing money
for two years. Doesn't sound real healthy to me.

SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:45:45 -0500
From: Dave Popadic <davepopadic@core.com>
Subject: Re: Can you identify this Olds?

I believe the person who asked me to find out said it was a 67 - 98....


Kurt> Dave, did you ever find out for sure?

Kurt> Kurt mailto:wmachine@shubes.net
Kurt> http://wmachines.shubes.net
Kurt> '65 Jetstar 1 (4-speed)       '66 442 Sport Coupe (Tri-Carb, 4-speed)
Kurt> '67 442 Convertible (4-speed) '69 442 Convertible (3-speed manual)
Kurt> '92 Achieva SCX W-41(5-speed) '04 Expedition (no-speed)



>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca
>> [mailto:oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca]On Behalf Of Kurt
>> Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 8:43 PM
>> To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
>> Subject: RE: Can you identify this Olds?
>>
>>
>> Don't know, but I'm guessing a '67 98.
>>
>> Kurt mailto:wmachine@shubes.net
>> http://wmachines.shubes.net
>> '65 Jetstar 1 (4-speed)       '66 442 Sport Coupe (Tri-Carb, 4-speed)
>> '67 442 Convertible (4-speed) '69 442 Convertible (3-speed manual)
>> '92 Achieva SCX W-41(5-speed) '04 Expedition (no-speed)
>>
>>
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca
>> > [mailto:oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca]On Behalf Of Dave Popadic
>> > Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 8:24 PM
>> > To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
>> > Subject: Can you identify this Olds?
>> >
>> >
>> > Can someone identify this Olds for me?  I need Year / Model..
>> >
>> > http://myweb.core.com/photos/cutlass67@core.com/oldspics/
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Dave
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 22:24:27 -0400
From: "Randy Geisel" <rocket455@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Fed-Mogul Has Been In Bankruptcy

Maybe the fire was an inside job then. ;-)

bad joke...
Randy

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:47:33 -0500
From: "Paul Pate" <rocket455@swbell.net>
Subject: 1971 Factory Paint

I'm planning to do some touch ups on my 71 Cutlass. It has very good
original paint. I am assuming this would be lacquer. Am I correct in my
assumption?

Paul Pate
1970 Cutlass S
1971 Cutlass

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 22:34:25 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Re-bodied car (way long)

> > One comment about "illegal VIN swapping.
>
> According to some PA State Trooper friends of mine.....I have a drawer
full
> evidence that would land me in jail if they weren't my friends and knew
why
> all of those cowl tags/vins are stashed there...especially the ones from
my
> '72 H/O sunroof car....RIP!

> That's what's done in Connecticut, too. Not positive about Mass > but
think I
heard they  do it, also.


I think we've now found the root of the problem. Some states allow VIN tag
swapping for legitimate rebuilding and restoration, and some states don't.
Another case of laws not being uniform from state to state. Another reason
to try to live in a state that will politically support one's hobbies and
interests. That's one of the reasons why I moved to Arizona.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 06:20:36 -0400
From: "Frederick Nissen" <fsnissen@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Fed-Mogul Has Been In Bankruptcy

http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/mcclure23e_20040723.htm
>
> According to this story, F-M went into Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in
> 2001 but expects to emerge this year. But they've also been losing money
> for two years. Doesn't sound real healthy to me.

- -------------------

The bankruptcy was forced by lawsuits related to a company they bought out
years ago.  The core operations are fairly healthy.  The big negative impact
of the bankruptcy is no R&D money for the last few years.  No real impact on
out older cars, but they do not have coverage for many newer cars.  Not a
good thing in the parts business.

Regards,
Fred

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:49:15 -0400
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: 350 pistons availability

For some unknown reason, Federal Mogul has those L2321F pistons still
listed on their web site, even though they have been discontinued for
many, many years. I was really disappointed to learn that 4 or 5 years
ago when I was looking for a set of 10.25:1 replacement pistons. I called
and asked about them, and was told they were no longer available. I asked
about the L2412F (13.87cc dish) forged 350 pistons for my 400-E block 
project,
and was told that there were 7 showing in warehouses across the country.
Lotta good that does anyone. The ONLY forged 350 pistons they still make
are the L2320F flat tops, and in STD and .030" over only. I guess we're not
supposed to bore our blocks a second time. What a waste.

Kenneth
1971 Cutlass Supreme convertible
Phoenix, AZ
==============
that's what 330 blocks are for
Bore 0= original 330 [3+15/16"]
bore 1= std 350 size
bore 2= 350 +030

what the hell else use is there for a std size 350 piston? Who has usable 
std size bores now, 30 years later?

Too much trouble to remove from listings items which have been discontinued 
for YEARS? Nice work.
- ----------------------
Chris Witt
1303 W. Miller Rd.
Lansing MI 48911

RocketScience442@hotmail.com

Cell 517-449-0432 weekends or short weekday calls or leave message.
Home 517-882-9747 thru 10-11pm MI time most days

_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:54:40 -0400
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: Dope fiends among us?

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:39:24 -0700
From: geo.aigel@sbcglobal.net
Subject: Re: dilemma - to rebody or repair

>George, while it IS your viewpoint, I have to agree with Chris Witt.  You 
>ARE on dope.

You come on the list, want to know what people think and then call them
dope heads if their opinions or suggestions aren't what you'd like to hear?
==================
Hey, now!
I wrote that only because George was asserting that his VIN stamp was not 
starting with a "3", then provided a photo, in which my aged feeble 
eyesight, in a too-dark photo, w/o stretching the gamma to enhance contrast 
in dark areas... readily picked out the "3"

It was more or less in jest anyhow.
Among friends, ya know. No offense meant. Like:
"what the hell where you thinking?"
there's the "3" right there.

Maybe if more "dope" were used, Glaucoma incidence would be lower, and folks 
could SEE the "3" that's obviously there.
- ----------------------
Chris Witt
1303 W. Miller Rd.
Lansing MI 48911

RocketScience442@hotmail.com

Cell 517-449-0432 weekends or short weekday calls or leave message.
Home 517-882-9747 thru 10-11pm MI time most days

_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:51:37 -0400
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: more VIN swapping

Randy writes:
Speaking of that '72 H/O sunroof vin/cowl tag sitting in my drawer.....I
could have rebodied that car with another Supreme body and replaced the
vin/cowl tags and swapped over all of the H/O specific parts and called it a
restored car, but in my mind there is a time when a car is no longer a car,
but just a rustbucket on life support. When you have to pull the body and
swap tags.....it's time to pull the plug and let it rest in peace. It's
gone....
========================
OK, that works for you, but not all of us are willing to let go of the 
rarest and most fun of the breed that easily.



I've been offered $1,500 for those tags/title and the glovebox.....could I
use the cash? Sure! Am I going to let the tags/title out of my possession?
Not in my lifetime....
=============
After you die, then we can do with them as we wish? Cool.
   If you are so determined to kick that car into the grave, it has all but 
a plate in the grave already I guess, WHY ARE YOU KEEPING THE TAGS? 
Photograpgh them for posterity, and destroy the originals, say by melting. 
That way you can ensure that no "fraud" will ever be committed by anyone 
along the lines of making a lesser Cutlass body into what your car once was.




It's a personal thing that each of us has to decide on their own. Just how
much of a car has to be left, before it's no longer considered the car that
was built at the factory.
==============
Maybe it is time for that Classic Witt-icism, the "Correct Corvette 
Restoration" article to resurface.



To me, it's up until the point where you end up swapping tags. Blow an
engine...replace it...you just repaired the car. Needs fenders, doors,
floors and 1/4's.....go ahead...replace them...you just repaired it. Frame
trashed...replace it.....just another repair. Replace the entire body one
piece at a time.....you just rebuilt it.....cost you more than the car will
ever be worth, but you didn't remove the tags. Swap tags.....you just made a
different car.
=====================
Does that only apply to certain classic cars, or aged cars? As set forth 
previously here, when a late model truck gets rolled, it gets repaired by 
putting on a new body [cab and/or bed]. Is that fraud? Is it fraud ONLY if 
the model was "special" or Oldsmobile or old enough to be increasing in 
value and not decreasing? I am not making sense of the reasoning.




I know vin swapping happens all the time. A few years ago, I unknowingly
delivered a set of tags from a '70 442 to a well respected local Olds resto
person. Would I buy one of his restorations, should I have the cash and he
has one up for auction at Atlantic City in January.....nope! Not anymore
(atleast not 442, W car, or H/O).....his cars lost all credibilty with me
when I found out what was in that envelope. I'll buy and have bought (along
with sold parts to him) his repro parts, but never will I buy a car from
him. No matter how much documentation he has, I'd always wonder if he made
it or it was real.
====================
Except for quality of work... what the hell difference does it make? Whether 
a 442 was assembled from bits and pieces out of various bins at the factory, 
or from bits and pieces in some restoration shop 30 years later... It's the 
SAME PROCESS. Same parts. Same result.




I've seen Chris' car in NJ in 2000 also. Chris has that same infliction alot
of us has.....what's the term Don? Vehicular optimism. That's why it took me
almost 3 years before I parted out the H/O rustbucket. I seriously thought
about swapping bodies.....but reality finally hit....it's gone.....let it
go. Part it out to save some other H/O's. Well, that car now still lives in
atleast 6
======================
Then... DESTROY THOSE TAGS. If you feel that strongly about it, kick it all 
the way into the grave forever.
   I parted out a 1975 H/O. Still have the VIN and body plate. Heck, I still 
have the entire crusty shell. Everything that was any good at all went away 
to help others restore their H/O. I doubt that there's anything super 
special encoded in a 1975 H/O VIN or body plate anyhow. Make an H/O oit of 
them? Sure, why not? It's essentially killing a Cutlass to revive an H/O. It 
may never be a valuable or as "real" [unmolested factory original] as the 
next car... but at least there would be one more left for someone to enjoy.
  PS I still have that dubious car, that recently came to be with Cutlass 
VIN obviously -not- factory riveted in place, and no body plate at all. 
Rumored to be a DOWNGRADED 442 [became a Cutlass]. Used to be 4-speed [well, 
MT anyhow] car; lately AT and bench seats. Now why would someone do that? 
Hide a stolen car. Sell off the buckets, console, etc.  I guess it might 
have been stolen, recovered, then parted out legally. When I get the body 
off the frame I will investigate the VIN that I find on the frame, see if 
anyone is still looking for it.
   Besides, wait 'til you see what I am going to do to/ with my car, if/ 
when the money ever flows. Not alteration-of-VIN stuff, but let's just say 
non-standard applications of standard factory parts, for a result that you 
cannot get any other way.
- ----------------------
Chris Witt
1303 W. Miller Rd.
Lansing MI 48911

RocketScience442@hotmail.com

Cell 517-449-0432 weekends or short weekday calls or leave message.
Home 517-882-9747 thru 10-11pm MI time most days

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:03:45 +0000
From: 62oldsfan@comcast.net
Subject: Re: (rant) Where's a moron when you don't need one? Right next to you!

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> when all of a sudden some guy pulls up, gets out of his
> truck, comes up to the Olds and checks to see if the
> compressor is frozen (hood was open), then proceeds
> toward the back of the car, hammering with his fist as he
> goes along (to check for Bondo - but he hasn't even said
> hello yet). So he walks up to my potential buyer and me
> and asks how much. I say "asking $5k". He says quite
> loudly for all to hear that it's "not worth it".
That is just too weird.  What are the chances of that?  That he would show up so close to the time that your buyer showed up so late?  Sounds like they were in cahoots to me.
Paul
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<html><body>
<P>&gt; when all of a sudden some guy pulls up, gets out of his<BR>&gt;&nbsp;truck, comes up to the Olds and checks to see if the<BR>&gt; compressor is frozen (hood was open), then proceeds<BR>&gt; toward the back of the car, hammering with his fist as he<BR>&gt; goes along (to check for Bondo - but he hasn't even said<BR>&gt; hello yet). So he walks up to my potential buyer and me<BR>&gt; and asks how much. I say "asking $5k". He says quite<BR>&gt; loudly for all to hear that it's "not worth it".</P>
<P>That is just too weird.&nbsp; What are the chances of that?&nbsp; That he would show up so close to the time that your buyer showed up so late?&nbsp; Sounds like they were in cahoots to me.</P>
<P>Paul</P></body></html>

- --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_17779_1090854225_0--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:19:11 +0000
From: 62oldsfan@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Engine needed

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> I need a 3.4  V6 for a '93 Cutlass convertible
> They may have been available in other GM cars.
This might be a good time to specify DOHC vs single.
The DOHC motor was also available in Lumina passenger cars and Grand Prix of the same era.
Paul
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<html><body>
<P>&gt; I need a 3.4&nbsp; V6 for a '93 Cutlass convertible<BR>&gt; They may have been available in other GM cars.</P>
<P>This might be a good time to specify DOHC vs single.</P>
<P>The DOHC motor was also available in Lumina passenger cars and Grand Prix of the same era.</P>
<P>Paul</P></body></html>

- --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_1887_1090855151_0--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:29:00 -0700
From: "Schopen, Kenneth" <kenneth.schopen@medtronic.com>
Subject: Re: Build sheet option descriptions

> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:37:07 -0400
> From: Robert Barry <rbarry@postoffice.providence.edu>
> Subject: Re: Build sheet option descriptions -  was: Re: SX 
> value and performance opinions wanted

snip

> The console was not standard on the Supreme, though bucket-seats were 
> (bench-seats were a credit option). 

Bob, I have to disagree with you there. I don't know what information you 
are basing your statement on, but I have in front of me the build sheet for 
my '70 Supreme, and the D55 Console is clearly marked as Standard Equipment. 
All of the Standard Equipment codes have an asterisk (*) in front of them, as 
shown by the legend at the lower right corner of the sheet (unless I'm reading 
this incorrectly). I don't have a site to post the build sheet, but if you'd 
like to see it I can fax it to you, or maybe someone with a site will allow 
me to post it there.

Kenneth
1971 Cutlass Supreme convertible
Phoenix, AZ

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 12:42:20 -0400
From: Paul White <oldslist@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: Dope fiends among us?

LOL


Yes Marijuana has been proven to help galucoma patients so Chris may 
actually be on to something down there lol!!!! Ya'll got me laughing today.

rocketscience442@hotmail.com wrote:

> Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:39:24 -0700
> From: geo.aigel@sbcglobal.net
> Subject: Re: dilemma - to rebody or repair
>
>> George, while it IS your viewpoint, I have to agree with Chris Witt. 
>> You ARE on dope.
>
>
> You come on the list, want to know what people think and then call them
> dope heads if their opinions or suggestions aren't what you'd like to 
> hear?
> ==================
> Hey, now!
> I wrote that only because George was asserting that his VIN stamp was 
> not starting with a "3", then provided a photo, in which my aged 
> feeble eyesight, in a too-dark photo, w/o stretching the gamma to 
> enhance contrast in dark areas... readily picked out the "3"
>
> It was more or less in jest anyhow.
> Among friends, ya know. No offense meant. Like:
> "what the hell where you thinking?"
> there's the "3" right there.
>
> Maybe if more "dope" were used, Glaucoma incidence would be lower, and 
> folks could SEE the "3" that's obviously there.
> ----------------------
> Chris Witt
> 1303 W. Miller Rd.
> Lansing MI 48911
>
> RocketScience442@hotmail.com
>
> Cell 517-449-0432 weekends or short weekday calls or leave message.
> Home 517-882-9747 thru 10-11pm MI time most days
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 09:50:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: chris smetana <grp442@yahoo.com>
Subject: my last words on the rebody/repair debate

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ok, having read much here and also another place I posed the same question, I have gathered enough opinions.  First, George.  I apologize.  Our opinions don't match, so be it.  We'll go about our business.  Again I apologize.  But seriously, I am curious if you did have a chance to look at your vin derivative stamping because it really does start with 3 not the 1 which you thought it did.
 
Steve D., I think it's been covered that body shops (that do insurance claims) have done what you stated.  With regards to legal issues, one could argue that nothing is illegal unless you get caught.  During my divorce trial, my ex-wife committed perjury but the judge didn't care.  It took my lawyer going back to the court transcripts and pointing out that the document she submitted as evidence didn't match her verbal acknowledge during the trial that an asset of hers did in fact exist before I filed for divorce.  We got that corrected with a petition for a correction motion.  Man, that STILL boggles my mind that she could lie on court documents and then even got away with it.  But, I'm running off on a tangent here.  As for ___IF____ I rebody my car and ___THEN___ decide to sell it, would I tell the prospective buyer.  Well, I haven't restored my car yet, so I can't answer that.  But come look at the car when it gets closer to being done (they're never really done) and flash some
 benjamins and you'll get your answer since whatever I did would have already happened.
 
Dave W, Well, no one knows the body/condition of your car better than you.  From what I recall I feel that it is MUCH more solid than mine.  For one, I've never looked at your trunk floor, but do remember the silicone around the rear window.  So obviously if that is leaking, you have at a minimum surface rust in the trunk.  If I had your car (as if that would ever happen,meaning you sell it), I would, based on what I've seen, repair what is there.
 
Markas,  how ya been?  Don't hear from you that often, at least that I can recall.  Anyway, my opinion, for what you have in the engine in your car.  If it's not AT LEAST in the 12s, you have issues.  Possibly, suspension or traction, but I really don't know.  However, I have personally seen MANY normally aspirated Olds powered 455s run 12s AND 11s.  In fact there are even some on this list.  I have also seen SEVERAL normally aspirated 350s (or big cube small blocks) run 12s.  It's not that hard.  It's mainly attention to detail.  Just attend ANY Mondello or Dick Miller event.  As for a car thats as close to stock as possible, one has to go only as far as the Pure Stock Musclecar Drags.  There are thousands upon thousands of specutators and competitors that have seen a 70 F-85 W-31 automatic that went through the voluntary and very stringent "certified stock" inspection run 12.88 in the quarter on repro Firestone Wide Ovals, through factory exhaust manifolds.  So someone is missing
 the boat if they believe a normally aspirated 350 Olds in a musclecar can't run 12s.  Markas, with that nicely restored car of yours, have you driven it yet?  Actually have you even washed it yet?  :-)
 
Kurt and Joe, VERY valid points.  One can add that a car can be restored millions of times, but it can only be original once.  One could argue that since I rebuilt the original 350 in my W-31, that the car isn't original anymore.  This is true, to an extent.  The car has original paint.  The original engine and transmission have been rebuilt.  I have rebuilt the original master cylinder.  The original carpet and interior are still in the car.  But when the car gets restored, a lot of the originality of the car will be lost since the carpet is shot, paint is faded, rusted body panels, torn seat covers, ripped headliner and such will be repaired or replaced.  But when it's finished the car is, was and always will still be a 1969 Cutlass S with the W-31 option.
 
Randy, thats a somewhat different, yet somewhat related issue.  Selling the "tags and title" as people have called it to "create" a car that you know you "destroyed", now that could lead to interesting issues.  However, restoring or rebodying the car/shell you had, thats the whole essence of my debate.  Or my intention anyway.  I've had the same issue with a 66 GTO I parted.  Someone took the vin plate off the door jamb, but left the data plate.  And on Kansas built GTOs, there is information pertaining to the options installed on the car from the factory, so why only take the vin and not the data plate is puzzling.  But I've had people ask my for the "title and tags" from the car.  and every time I've said, they aren't for sale.
 
I would like to ask one more question relating to this issue.  It was mentioned that if the car is rebodied, it would be a clone.  Lets say two people each have a 72 W-30 (X in vin, so documentation is unnecessary).  The first car is a rust free rolling shell.  Nice car, complete but missing the original numbers matching engine and transmission (lost long ago).  The owner finds a 72 455 built in lansing and an OW TH400, gets them rebuilt and install them in the car.  Is this car still a 72 W-30 or is it a clone/fake?  Our second owner has a complete numbers matching car.  Very worn, but a rough and rusty body.  He finds a rust free shell from AZ, swaps the engine, trans, dash pad, gauges and bezels rest of interior, trunk lid, rear axle, hood and bumpers from the rusted hulk to the rust free body.  The X in still in the vin on this rust free body.  Is this car still the 72 W-30 or is it a clone/fake?
 
Thanks for all your opinions and insight.  I can only say that the same number of 69 W-31s that were built in 1969, there will still be that number after my car is restored since whatever road I take, I am starting and finishing with (from what everyone who has looked at the car can determine is) my real 69 W-31.
 
Chris
grp442@yahoo.com
 
 

		
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<DIV>ok, having read much here and also another place I posed the same question, I have gathered enough opinions.&nbsp; First, George.&nbsp; I apologize.&nbsp; Our opinions don't match, so be it.&nbsp; We'll go about our business.&nbsp; Again I apologize.&nbsp; But seriously, I am curious if you did have a chance to look at your vin derivative stamping because it really does start with 3 not the 1 which you thought it did.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Steve D., I think it's been covered that body shops (that do insurance claims) have done what you stated.&nbsp; With regards to legal issues, one could argue that nothing is illegal unless you get caught.&nbsp; During my divorce trial, my ex-wife committed perjury but the judge didn't care.&nbsp; It took my lawyer going back to the court transcripts and pointing out that the document she submitted as evidence didn't match her verbal acknowledge during the trial&nbsp;that an asset of&nbsp;hers did in fact exist before I filed for divorce.&nbsp; We got that corrected with a petition for a correction motion.&nbsp; Man, that STILL boggles my mind that she could lie on court documents and then&nbsp;even got away with it.&nbsp; But, I'm running off on a tangent here.&nbsp; As for ___IF____ I rebody my car and ___THEN___ decide to sell it, would I tell the prospective buyer.&nbsp; Well, I haven't restored my car yet, so I can't answer that.&nbsp; But come look at the car when it gets
 closer to being done (they're never really done)&nbsp;and flash some benjamins and you'll get your answer since whatever I did would have already happened.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Dave W, Well, no one knows the body/condition of your car better than you.&nbsp; From what I recall I feel that it is MUCH more solid than mine.&nbsp; For one, I've never looked at your trunk floor, but do remember the silicone around the rear window.&nbsp; So obviously if that is leaking, you have at a minimum surface rust in the trunk.&nbsp; If I had your car (as if that would ever happen,meaning you sell it), I would, based on what I've seen, repair what is there.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Markas,&nbsp; how ya been?&nbsp; Don't hear from you that often, at least that I can recall.&nbsp; Anyway, my opinion, for what you have in the engine in your car.&nbsp; If it's not AT LEAST in the 12s, you have issues.&nbsp; Possibly, suspension or traction, but I really don't know.&nbsp; However, I have personally seen MANY normally aspirated Olds powered 455s run 12s AND 11s.&nbsp; In fact there are even some on this list.&nbsp; I have also seen SEVERAL normally aspirated 350s (or big cube small blocks) run 12s.&nbsp; It's not that hard.&nbsp; It's mainly attention to detail.&nbsp; Just attend ANY Mondello or Dick Miller event.&nbsp; As for a car thats as close to stock as possible, one has to go only as far as the Pure Stock Musclecar Drags.&nbsp; There are thousands upon thousands&nbsp;of specutators and competitors that have seen a 70 F-85 W-31 automatic&nbsp;that went through the voluntary and very stringent "certified stock" inspection run 12.88 in the quarter on repro
 Firestone Wide Ovals, through factory exhaust manifolds.&nbsp; So someone is missing the boat if they believe a normally aspirated 350 Olds in a musclecar can't run 12s.&nbsp; Markas, with that nicely restored car of yours, have you driven it yet?&nbsp; Actually have you even washed it yet?&nbsp; :-)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Kurt and Joe, VERY valid points.&nbsp;&nbsp;One can add that a car can be restored millions of times, but it can only be original once.&nbsp; One could argue that since I rebuilt the original 350 in my W-31, that the car isn't original anymore.&nbsp; This is true, to an extent.&nbsp; The car has original paint.&nbsp; The original engine and transmission have been rebuilt.&nbsp; I have rebuilt the original master cylinder.&nbsp; The original carpet and interior are still in the car.&nbsp; But when the car gets restored, a lot of the originality of the car will be lost since the carpet is shot, paint is faded, rusted&nbsp;body panels, torn seat covers, ripped headliner and such will be repaired or replaced.&nbsp; But when it's finished the car is, was and always will still be a 1969 Cutlass S with the W-31 option.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Randy, thats a somewhat different, yet somewhat related issue.&nbsp; Selling the "tags and title" as people have called it to "create" a car that you know you "destroyed", now that could lead to interesting issues.&nbsp; However, restoring or rebodying the car/shell you had, thats the whole essence of my debate.&nbsp; Or my intention anyway.&nbsp; I've had the same issue with a 66 GTO I parted.&nbsp; Someone took the vin plate off the door jamb, but left the data plate.&nbsp; And on Kansas built GTOs, there is information pertaining to the options installed on the car from the factory, so why only take the vin and not the data plate is puzzling.&nbsp; But I've had people ask my for the "title and tags" from the car.&nbsp; and every time I've said, they aren't for sale.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I would like to ask one more question relating to this issue.&nbsp; It was mentioned that if the car is rebodied, it would be a clone.&nbsp; Lets say&nbsp;two people&nbsp;each have&nbsp;a 72 W-30 (X in vin, so documentation is unnecessary).&nbsp; The first car is a rust free rolling shell.&nbsp; Nice car, complete but missing the original numbers matching engine and transmission (lost long ago).&nbsp; The owner finds a 72 455 built in lansing and an OW TH400, gets them rebuilt and install them in the car.&nbsp; Is this car still a 72 W-30 or is it a clone/fake?&nbsp; Our second owner has a complete numbers matching car.&nbsp; Very worn, but a rough and rusty body.&nbsp; He finds a rust free shell from AZ, swaps the engine, trans, dash pad, gauges and&nbsp;bezels rest of interior, trunk lid, rear axle, hood and&nbsp;bumpers from the rusted hulk to the rust free body.&nbsp; The X in still in the vin on this rust free body.&nbsp; Is this car still the 72 W-30 or is it a
 clone/fake?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Thanks for all your opinions and insight.&nbsp; I can only say that the same number of 69 W-31s that were built in 1969, there will still be that number after my car is restored since whatever road I take, I am starting and finishing with&nbsp;(from what everyone who has looked at the car can determine is) my real 69 W-31.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Chris</DIV>
<DIV><A href="mailto:grp442@yahoo.com">grp442@yahoo.com</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><p>
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:24:34 -0400
From: Robert Barry <rbarry@postoffice.providence.edu>
Subject: Re: Build sheet option descriptions

At 09:29 AM 7/26/2004 -0700, you wrote:
> > Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 13:37:07 -0400
> > From: Robert Barry <rbarry@postoffice.providence.edu>
> > Subject: Re: Build sheet option descriptions -  was: Re: SX
> > value and performance opinions wanted
>
>snip
>
> > The console was not standard on the Supreme, though bucket-seats were
> > (bench-seats were a credit option).
>
>Bob, I have to disagree with you there. I don't know what information you
>are basing your statement on, but I have in front of me the build sheet for
>my '70 Supreme, and the D55 Console is clearly marked as Standard Equipment.
>All of the Standard Equipment codes have an asterisk (*) in front of them, as
>shown by the legend at the lower right corner of the sheet (unless I'm 
>reading
>this incorrectly). I don't have a site to post the build sheet, but if you'd
>like to see it I can fax it to you, or maybe someone with a site will allow
>me to post it there.

E-mail me a scan of that, if you would, as well as a build-date. I was 
going by the factory order-forms for the '70 Supreme, in which the console 
needed to be ordered, though the bucket-seats were listed as standard. That 
could have changed through the year, though, so the order-form may only 
have been applicable for the first part of the year. I don't know what they 
did in '71 or '72, but I do know of Everett Horton's column-shift 3-speed 
manual-trans '72 Supreme; don't know if that's a bucket or a bench car.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 10:58:21 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: my last words on the rebody/repair debate

Chris,

> I would like to ask one more question relating to this issue.  It was
mentioned that if the car is rebodied, it would be a clone.  Lets say two
people each have a 72 W-30 (X in vin, so documentation is unnecessary).  The
first car is a rust free rolling shell.  Nice car, complete but missing the
original numbers matching engine and transmission (lost long ago).  The
owner finds a 72 455 built in lansing and an OW TH400, gets them rebuilt and
install them in the car.  Is this car still a 72 W-30 or is it a clone/fake?


It's still an original '72 W-30 that has had the drivetrain repaired with
original parts donated from another car. I would assume that has to happen
all the time. After 32 years, there may not be much choice.


> Our second owner has a complete numbers matching car.  Very worn, but a
rough and rusty body.  He finds a rust free shell from AZ, swaps the engine,
trans, dash pad, gauges and bezels rest of interior, trunk lid, rear axle,
hood and bumpers from the rusted hulk to the rust free body.  The X in still
in the vin on this rust free body.  Is this car still the 72 W-30 or is it a
clone/fake?


If he switches the VIN tag, it's still the original '72 W30 that has had its
body repaired and restored using original parts donated from another car.
Again, I would assume that has to happen all the time. After 32 years, there
may not be much choice.

However, if he doesn't switch the VIN tag and keeps and uses the donor
body's VIN tag, it's a gray area, and his title won't match. I'd switch the
VIN tag and keep everything true to the original title.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

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End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #4964
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