
oldsmobile-digest        Monday, May 24 2004        Volume 01 : Number 4900



Ebay makes you nuts
56 rear door window glass
1986 Delta 88 Rear power window problems
Re: 1986 Delta 88 Rear power window problems
Re: Ebay makes you nuts
Re: 425 D Block
Re: Milton J. Schick
Re: 1986 Delta 88 Rear power window problems
68 pcs f/s
Tip of the Week #4146
Re: 425 D Block
Re: Tip of the Week #4146
Strange Driveline Issue
RE: Strange Driveline Issue
Re: Strange Driveline Issue
Re: Tip of the Week #4146
can a starter fail this way?
RE: can a starter fail this way?
RE: can a starter fail this way?
Re: Strange Driveline Issue
Re: can a starter fail this way?
Re: can a starter fail this way?
Re: can a starter fail this way?
RE: can a starter fail this way?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 20:35:32 -0400
From: "Joe" <w30442@zoominternet.net>
Subject: Ebay makes you nuts

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2477710079


People on Ludes should not drive. Nice car though!    

$174,999.90

And how about this steal
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2478354770

$354,200.00
Joe

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 13:04:27 +1200
From: "Greg Rotto" <grotto@es.co.nz>
Subject: 56 rear door window glass

Sorry for my previous posting - meant to mention was rear door window glass
- - just to clarify.  Having great difficulty getting the glass assembly out
of the door.  There must be one connection at the front window guide that I
have missed but can't seem to get to it through the door panel inspection
points/holes available.

Thanks

Gr

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 18:06:47 -0700
From: "Robert Sailor" <rsailor@verizon.net>
Subject: 1986 Delta 88 Rear power window problems

List,
I'm having a problem with the rear power window on my Delta 88.
It won't go up all the way. It's down about 1/4".
I thought I would replace the CB, but that didn't help.
If I operate the switch I can hear it click inside the door, so I believe
there's power to the motor.
Not sure what exactly to do. I want to remove the door panel and check it
out,
but any help on how to remove the door panel and then
what to look for once that's done would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Robert

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 23:18:23 -0400
From: Joe Vahabzadeh <king_v@mindless.com>
Subject: Re: 1986 Delta 88 Rear power window problems

At 06:06 PM 05/23/2004 -0700, Robert wrote:
>List,
>I'm having a problem with the rear power window on my Delta 88.
>It won't go up all the way. It's down about 1/4".
>I thought I would replace the CB, but that didn't help.
>If I operate the switch I can hear it click inside the door, so I believe
>there's power to the motor.
>Not sure what exactly to do. I want to remove the door panel and check it
>out,
>but any help on how to remove the door panel and then
>what to look for once that's done would be appreciated.

Wish I could offer some help, but my 1986 was manual windows.

The only thing I can say is that removing the armrest pads on the door are
kind of a pain.  The padded part is a separate piece from the lower hard
plastic part, but the part that holds it on is just an l-shaped kind of clip.

Sorta like this:  (okay, it's bad text art, but still....)
   __________________
   |   PADDED       |
   |    AREA        |
  _|________________|
 |
 ||
__|


I've never quite figured out how to gracefully get these off without
breaking at least some of those retaining clips.  Since it's plastic that's
molded as one piece to the armrest, it's not like you can just go out and
replace these clips.

I'm pretty sure there's a proper way to do it, I just don't know how other
than to try and be very careful.

As to what's causing the actual problem with the window not closing all the
way, I'm not sure.....


	- Joe "using a lot of words to provide not enough answers" Vahabzadeh

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 2004 23:57:17 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Ebay makes you nuts

> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2477710079
>
>
> People on Ludes should not drive. Nice car though!
>
> $174,999.90


Mileage is zero, but "The car is National Show quality ( has won 2nd and 3rd
place at GS Nationals where it was raced one year only, and ran a 13.78 @
104 mph, weighing 4320 lbs. less driver.  The 3 speed  actually performs
better than a 4 speed. I should know I used to race a 70 stage 1 conv. 4
speed (one of the 67 built), lighter car (3960 lbs) bigger rear gear (3.64,
no a/c) best time 13.99 @ 102 mph." So the car was raced. It must have seen
street use. What's the real mileage on it? Also, this car is a '70
convertible that weighs 4320 pounds and another '70 4 speed convertible
weighed in at 3960 pounds? That doesn't compute!

Boy, where do these people get their money to buy non-essentiasls?


> And how about this steal
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2478354770
>
> $354,200.00


This one is just plain stupid.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 04:07:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: kenneth treharn <kwt_1950@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: 425 D Block

Two ways, first, take a straight edge and put it into
the lifter bore going up past deck of block, use a
square on block cylinder deck to see angle of straight
edge to the deck. If it is 90 degree square it is a 45
degree block, My Nephew made me a rod machined .842
that fits into the lifter bore an extends up then just
run a square to it. 2nd way take out camshaft, put it
on a bench and rotate it. 45 degree cams will have
lobes that aline perfectly where a 39 degrees have
none that aline with any other lobe.  Compare it to a
"known" 39 degree cam if it is a 45 degree you will
see the difference now you know what you are looking
for.  Is there a reason you wanted a 425? I also like
the 425's better, I feel they are a "little" stronger
in the crank area.  Later, Ken  
- --- "M. Gillespie" <mick442@rogers.com> wrote:
> Thanks to List Member Jim Murphy, I now have a 425
> to build for my 69 442
> convertible, (clone).
> 
> From what I can tell from the FAQ it is almost
> certainly a 45 deg. CBA
> block. It has .842" lifters and no drill spot. The
> pistons are almost
> flattops. The recess is REALLY shallow.
> 
> Does anyone have any info to indicate that the
> possibility of a 39 deg. CBA
> exists? What's the easiest way to measure it?
> 
> As I can afford it, I'll be looking for "C" heads to
> match the year of my
> car and possibly an Offy intake manifold. Anyone
> have good used ones; Cheap?
> 
> My web site URL has changed again:
> http://members.rogers.com/mick442/oldspage.htm
> 
> Hopefully, I'll have enough time to be more active
> on the List and build the
> 425.
> 
> Mick Gillespie
> mick442@rogers.com
> 



	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Domains – Claim yours for only $14.70/year
http://smallbusiness.promotions.yahoo.com/offer 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:22:35 +0000
From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg_o@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Milton J. Schick

>It's spam. It's a new trick spammers have come up with to acquire E-mail
>addresses to verify that they are active and to abuse. I wouldn't be
>surprised if the spam hackers haven't penetrated the Olds List at Chebucto.
>Whatever you do, don't respond to it. You'll just confirm that your address
>is active. You wouldn't believe some of the scams and ruses that have come
>into my inbox.

I'm as rabid an anti-spammer as they come, but I must admit I'm stumped as 
to what the spam angle is here, since (1) the individual's email address is 
visible in the headers of any posting to the Olds list, and Milton is a 
regular here, and (2) the suspect email appears to be hand-typed, since its 
wording refers to the Olds email list and does not look like a 
fill-in-the-blanks message generated from a template.

Any non-Internet-literate person who wanted to reach Milton but didn't know 
how to read headers in order to find the poster's (i.e. Milton's) email 
address would be asking a question such as that. A spammer would know that 
already.

Certainly you were right to consult Milton on this rather than to give his 
address out to anyone who asks, but I'm not sure that we're really looking 
at a spamming attempt here. Replying to her from a throwaway email account 
(e.g. Hotmail) might be the answer here.

- -- Andy

_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! 
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 14:31:28 +0000
From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg_o@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: 1986 Delta 88 Rear power window problems

>The only thing I can say is that removing the armrest pads on the door are
>kind of a pain.  The padded part is a separate piece from the lower hard
>plastic part, but the part that holds it on is just an l-shaped kind of 
>clip.

Oh, _that_ thing. Ugh. I remember doing one of those myself. It wasn't 
pretty. It involved prying harder than you think you should at a certain 
angle, waiting to hear an ugly ccccrrrRRACK as the clip lets go, then hoping 
you don't see broken pieces when you look at the back side.

>As to what's causing the actual problem with the window not closing all the
>way, I'm not sure.....

IIRC, this window design uses a plastic ribbon track in the window frame to 
guide the glass, and a toothed regulator to drive it. The Buick I worked on 
had a driver's window that only opened partway, and the problem turned out 
to be that the plastic ribbon had delaminated itself into strips where it 
ran through the regulator crank, and it could only get partway through 
before the loose strips curled back onto themselves and jammed up the 
regulator. This window might have a similar problem, going in the opposite 
direction. A visual inspection should reveal what's going on, once you get 
the door panels off.

>	- Joe "using a lot of words to provide not enough answers" Vahabzadeh

Me, too...  :-(

- -- Andy

_________________________________________________________________
Stop worrying about overloading your inbox - get MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! 
http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 11:55:52 -0400
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: 68 pcs f/s

ready to move on some 1968 pcs
advance warning before eVil sure? sales

1968 Post Coupe
- -Column-shift TILT COLUMN, no steering wheel.
- -Doors
- -Glass
- -Nice dash and pad
- -door trims
- -trims under R Qtr windows
- -12 bolt c type rear end, open 2.56, axles good [never seen much torque!]
- -more as I find it

put a bunch of 1966 Cutlass/442 wheel opening trims on eBay too, turns out, 
looks like... the 4-dr rear w/o trims are readily convertible to the 2-dr 
version, just have to trim the length of the fwd extension from slanted 3" 
to a 90 degree cut 2"... pictures here show that:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7902969749&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT


- ----------------------
Chris Witt
1303 W. Miller Rd.
Lansing MI 48911

RocketScience442@hotmail.com

Cell 517-449-0432 weekends or short weekday calls or leave message.
Home 517-882-9747 thru 10-11pm MI time most days

_________________________________________________________________
Stop worrying about overloading your inbox - get MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! 
http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 12:02:49 -0400
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: Tip of the Week #4146

my brother discovered this one...
Ever have a hard time removing the lighter assembly from a dash?
outer case rusted to the main body?
Try to use your thumb to prevent main body from rotating, just hurts your 
thumb?

Aha!
Sears Craftsman [only] type NUT DRIVERS have a nifty spheroidal end on the 
handle, which, when forced into the lighter socket, grip it firmly, yet w/o 
damage!

Pliers on the outer shell backside, and voila' it's off like a prom dress.

Others, please share your tips, too.

I just got my OTC pulley puller that I found on eBay, good for Aurora 
engines, Northstar, and that cute little 6.0 V8 I got a week or 2 ago. Great 
quality tool, a wonderful thing, and only $55. OTC/SPX tools I heartily 
recommend. I have had about a dozen occasions to use such a thing thus far, 
had managed to get by with regular long-arm 3-jaw puller, but it was a total 
PITA, and this tool is said to work with the engine in place, too, should 
that ever happen to me.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2477846802&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT
- ----------------------
Chris Witt
1303 W. Miller Rd.
Lansing MI 48911

RocketScience442@hotmail.com

Cell 517-449-0432 weekends or short weekday calls or leave message.
Home 517-882-9747 thru 10-11pm MI time most days

_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! 
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 12:08:07 -0400
From: "M. Gillespie" <mick442@rogers.com>
Subject: Re: 425 D Block

>  Is there a reason you wanted a 425? I also like
> the 425's better, I feel they are a "little" stronger
> in the crank area.  Later, Ken

Thanks Kenneth, I was hoping there was a quick and dirty way to tell the CBA
before I took things apart but it has to come apart anyway. Based on it not
having the drill spot on the timing chain ledge, I'm pretty sure it's 45
deg. as the FAQ says.
I like the 425 for the shorter stroke and better rod length to stroke ratio.
Of course, I could use the 425 crank, rods and pistons in a 455 block and
avoid the CBA or lifter dia. issues and I would do that if I had a good one.
The 425 I have looks to be in good shape so I'm going to go with that. 45
deg. camshafts are still available from most of the good manufacturers.

Mick
http://members.rogers.com/mick442/oldspage.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 13:16:18 -0300 (ADT)
From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Tip of the Week #4146

On Mon, 24 May 2004, Christopher Witt wrote:
> Pliers on the outer shell backside, and voila' it's off like a prom dress.

Now there's one I hadn't heard before! Good line... :)

Greg Beaulieu    ab348@chebucto.ns.ca    Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada
          Olds List Admin Info: http://oldslist.oldsgmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 13:27:01 -0300 (ADT)
From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Subject: Strange Driveline Issue

Yesterday I took the Cutlass out for only the second time this year. The
car is getting to the point where I am shortly going to need to redo a
number of things and yesterday a new issue popped up; wonder if anyone can
advise.

I noticed after driving it for a bit that when moving from a stop there
was a bit of a delay or lag, not in the engine but in the driveline. It
was almost as if you were up against a low curb and had to give it a
little gas to get rolling. At the same time you could feel a bit or
coarseness or roughness in the driveline for just a second or so. Don't
know how to describe that better, it was a type of low-frequency vibration
that you sensed in the car.

My first thought was torque converter. I checked the trans fluid level and
that was fine. My second thought was something a now-departed mechanic
told me years ago. He had it up on a hoist and was looking at the
driveshaft. He found it unusual in that it had a bonded rubber section and
he said that the rubber looked to be deteriorating. It is one of those
things I tried to forget about, not wanting to source a replacement
driveshaft in these parts, but I wonder if it might have gotten worse and
caused this - could it be that the driveshaft has developed some
rotational play? I had never heard of such a driveshaft design and
wondered why it was used, or what the feeling would be if it was
eventually replaced with a solid one.

Any thoughts?

Greg Beaulieu    ab348@chebucto.ns.ca    Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada
          Olds List Admin Info: http://oldslist.oldsgmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 17:16:21 +0000
From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg_o@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Strange Driveline Issue

>My second thought was something a now-departed mechanic
>told me years ago. He had it up on a hoist and was looking at the
>driveshaft. He found it unusual in that it had a bonded rubber section and
>he said that the rubber looked to be deteriorating.

Yeah, but when you're in Drive with your foot on the brakes, you don't have 
any slack to take up in the drivetrain; it's still under load, waiting for 
you to release the car.

I think I'd want to check on whether a caliper or brake shoe is dragging 
somewhere. Might be interesting to try pushing the car, or letting it coast 
slowly in Neutral to see if one or wheels are dragging. Jacking up the car 
and trying to spin each wheel by hand might be informative, too.

- -- Andy

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE 
download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 13:33:14 -0400
From: "JOHN ORR" <jorr@paylessequipment.com>
Subject: Re: Strange Driveline Issue

hey  greg,
   I know, you just need a new used tranny, with console and shifter... :-)
john
67 cutlass supreme

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 13:43:38 -0400
From: "Dan Roethel" <droethel@rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Tip of the Week #4146

I just got my OTC pulley puller that I found on eBay, good for Aurora
engines,

Chris, what's an Aurora engine going for these days? I keep seeing a
complete engine advertized for $500.00 (needs block work)
in one of the local papers. Seems cheap for a all aluminum V-8.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 13:17:36 -0500
From: <b_ammons@mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: can a starter fail this way?

Howdy.  Been pretty busy, haven't kept up with list or car stuff - this
weekend I tried to knock out the last car problem I had but was
unsuccessful, need a hint.

The '77 w/ original 403 puked on me last time out, I was on the freeway and
it was missing, so I pulled over, tried to check which plug was missing,
wire came apart in my hand...ok i thought, no prob, I'll get home on six
cylinders.  Tried to restart car and it wouldnt' catch - however, it did
continue to try to start itself even with the key out of the ignition, until
the positive battery cable melted off the battery post (no kidding).  Smoke
from the starter too, but that's to be expected (i thought)...

It had done something similar since the time I bought it (during the first
attempt to start it on any given day the starter would continue to be
engaged with the key in a position other than "Start"), I had assumed it was
a sticking ignition switch and (having one already on hand) I have since
replaced it.  Also replaced the positive battery cable (the fusibile links -
to the body wiring - appeared to be in good shape, I left them alone) as
well as the negative cable.  Battery replaced under warranty, total outlay
on this adventure is $1.07 for new red and green terminal fuzzies.

Go to test fire it and - wow, it's doing the exact same thing (key in, turn
key, starter turns, isn't catching, relax key to pump pedal, oh my god the
starter's still spinning), RUN to battery to disconnect cable.  Reconnect
battery cable, starter isn't still spinning this time, turn key to start and
the solenoid clicks like a sumb*tch but the starter motor doesn't engage now
at all.

Summary - starter wouldn't back off leading to heat damage, replaced damaged
components along with suspected culprit ignition switch but problem
persists.

Can somebody tell me how a fault like this can be inside the starter (this
is still the "standard" starter, identical to the one off of my 455 - it is
not the lightweight metric one) but yet still allow the solenoid to click
properly?  I can maybe see the power draw from a faulty starter causing the
missing (which was the reason I pulled over in the first place), however I
sure suspected the ignition switch first...

Brian Ammons
NOC Manager
Oxford Communications

bammons@oxcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 18:37:27 +0000
From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg_o@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: can a starter fail this way?

>Can somebody tell me how a fault like this can be inside the starter (this
>is still the "standard" starter, identical to the one off of my 455 - it is
>not the lightweight metric one) but yet still allow the solenoid to click
>properly?

Well, the click you hear would be the mechanism closing the contacts on the 
cranking circuit, but that's not to say that the contacts can't stay 
together after the closing mechanism is released. Whether they stay together 
by a welding effect of heavy current flow or by a physical hooking-together 
of contact surfaces is kind of academic; one way or another, you could have 
the main contacts stuck closed even if the actuating mechanism sounds like 
it's working.

I had a horn relay on a Firebird do this once, after pitting on one contact 
and an arcing deposit buildup on the other managed to get them hooked 
together. That was noisy.  :-)

Are you swapping out the starter but keeping the original solenoid, or 
vice-versa, or replacing both each time?

- -- Andy

_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! 
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 13:55:39 -0500
From: "Brian Ammons" <b_ammons@mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: RE: can a starter fail this way?

Your point is well taken...I understand how the main contacts could be fused
together irrespective of the solenoid operation.  That would imply, however,
that the starter would engage all the time - while that was formerly the
case, it is not the case now (now the starter won't engage at all).

I'm going to put the whole starter & solenoid assembly off the 455 onto the
403 next chance I get.

The plan was NOT to work on this 200k mile example - instead, to just keep
it running until I could do the heart transplant.  However, slowly but
surely, parts from the PB are finding their way onto the Pace Car...

- -----Original Message-----
From: oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca
[mailto:oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca]On Behalf Of Andrew C. Green

Are you swapping out the starter but keeping the original solenoid, or
vice-versa, or replacing both each time?

- -- Andy

_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now!
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 12:13:54 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Strange Driveline Issue

Greg,

I don't believe a partial debonding of the driveshaft is the problem. I
sounds like something trying to retard forward motion. It would interesting
if you could get it to happen in reverse. The only thing I can think of is:

1) dragging or sticking brake shoe or caliper
2) the planetary gears in the rear of the trans locking up and can cause a
vibration
3) trans valve body malfunction, but that, in itself, won't cause a
vibration, unless it's causing the planetary gears to malfunction in the
first place

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Beaulieu" <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
To: "Oldsmobile" <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 9:27 AM
Subject: Strange Driveline Issue


> Yesterday I took the Cutlass out for only the second time this year. The
> car is getting to the point where I am shortly going to need to redo a
> number of things and yesterday a new issue popped up; wonder if anyone can
> advise.
>
> I noticed after driving it for a bit that when moving from a stop there
> was a bit of a delay or lag, not in the engine but in the driveline. It
> was almost as if you were up against a low curb and had to give it a
> little gas to get rolling. At the same time you could feel a bit or
> coarseness or roughness in the driveline for just a second or so. Don't
> know how to describe that better, it was a type of low-frequency vibration
> that you sensed in the car.
>
> My first thought was torque converter. I checked the trans fluid level and
> that was fine. My second thought was something a now-departed mechanic
> told me years ago. He had it up on a hoist and was looking at the
> driveshaft. He found it unusual in that it had a bonded rubber section and
> he said that the rubber looked to be deteriorating. It is one of those
> things I tried to forget about, not wanting to source a replacement
> driveshaft in these parts, but I wonder if it might have gotten worse and
> caused this - could it be that the driveshaft has developed some
> rotational play? I had never heard of such a driveshaft design and
> wondered why it was used, or what the feeling would be if it was
> eventually replaced with a solid one.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Greg Beaulieu    ab348@chebucto.ns.ca    Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada
>           Olds List Admin Info: http://oldslist.oldsgmail.com
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 12:23:27 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: can a starter fail this way?

I can't explain it precisely, but your starter is shorting out internally.
You would have to pull the starter apart and track the short down. It's
rare, but it happened to me on my '65 F-85 once. Before I realized what had
happened, the short pulled the electrical system down so bad it took out the
alternator. This event happened over a period of a few weeks, as the starter
got progressively worse, until everything went down at once. I was
misreading what was happening. I thought it was something else, like the
battery simply going bad. It wasn't.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com


> Can somebody tell me how a fault like this can be inside the starter (this
> is still the "standard" starter, identical to the one off of my 455 - it
is
> not the lightweight metric one) but yet still allow the solenoid to click
> properly?  I can maybe see the power draw from a faulty starter causing
the
> missing (which was the reason I pulled over in the first place), however I
> sure suspected the ignition switch first...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 16:04:57 -0400
From: SteveH <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: can a starter fail this way?

At Monday, 24 May 2004, you wrote:
>It had done something similar since the time I bought it 
>(during the first attempt to start it on any given day 
>the starter would continue to be engaged with the key 
>in a position other than "Start"), I had assumed it was
>a sticking ignition switch and (having one already on hand) 
>I have since replaced it.

That's ALMOST ALWAYS the starter solenoid sticking, especially on 
an engine that's taking a lot of starter power.

>Go to test fire it and - wow, it's doing the exact same thing 
>(key in, turn key, starter turns, isn't catching, relax key 
>to pump pedal, oh my god the starter's still spinning), RUN 
>to battery to disconnect cable.

Starter solenoid is sticking. Need replacement. NOT the starter, 
just the solenoid.

>Reconnect battery cable, starter isn't still spinning this 
>time, turn key to start and the solenoid clicks like a 
>sumb*tch but the starter motor doesn't engage now
>at all.

Ya burned up the copper disk inside the solenoid. Now, you HAVE to 
replace the starter solenoid  ;o)

>Can somebody tell me how a fault like this can be inside 
>the starter (this is still the "standard" starter, identical 
>to the one off of my 455 - it is not the lightweight metric 
>one) but yet still allow the solenoid to click properly?

It's the copper disk inside the starter SOLENOID, not the starter 
itself or the ignition switch. Usually, these develop a burned spot 
that PREVENTS them from contacting and engaging the starter. In your 
case, it apparently started sticking while engaged.

If the dang thang wasn't so hard to get at and get out, what we backyard 
mechanics used to do in the olden days was simply file down the burned 
spots on the disk and put it back together. That would usually last 
for a few more months, sometimes longer. However, there was usually 
colleteral damage: the bakelite housing holding the terminals would 
be overheated and either burned or cracked. This would happen because 
when the copper disk doesn't make good contact, it develops resistance 
and due to the current draw through that resistance, the disk gets 
superhot. Since the disk is in direct contact with the big terminals 
in the bakelite end cap, those terminals also get superhot which 
burns the bakelite. Often, the terminals will wind up being loose.
This is often the cause of the starter engaging seemingly randomly 
while driving over a bump or down the highway: the terminals jounce 
around and intermittently make contact. I've even heard of a fire 
caused by this.

>I sure suspected the ignition switch first...

If you'd mentioned the problem here first, you would have already 
replaced the solenoid and had no further problems  ;o((((((  It's 
a very common starter problem on GM engines that are either very 
large (that huge-bore 403 takes a LOT of power to turn over) or have 
high compression (over 10:1 or thereabouts).

I've never even heard of a failed ignition switch.

SteveH



===================================================================
EASY access to your email http://webmail.dandy.net/mr2/nph-mr.cgi
===================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 13:40:32 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: can a starter fail this way?

Yep, it could very easily be just the solenoid. I've repaired solenoids just
like that. However, from Brian's description, it sounded like what happened
to me. That was an intermittent short from the shunt coil in the GM high
torque starter to the case. In the end, it was no longer intermittent and
full battery power went right through the starter case when I hit the switch
to start and fed back into the alternator through the ground. The alternator
fried.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com


- ----- Original Message -----
From: "SteveH" <k0xp@dandy.net>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: can a starter fail this way?


> At Monday, 24 May 2004, you wrote:
> >It had done something similar since the time I bought it
> >(during the first attempt to start it on any given day
> >the starter would continue to be engaged with the key
> >in a position other than "Start"), I had assumed it was
> >a sticking ignition switch and (having one already on hand)
> >I have since replaced it.
>
> That's ALMOST ALWAYS the starter solenoid sticking, especially on
> an engine that's taking a lot of starter power.
>
> >Go to test fire it and - wow, it's doing the exact same thing
> >(key in, turn key, starter turns, isn't catching, relax key
> >to pump pedal, oh my god the starter's still spinning), RUN
> >to battery to disconnect cable.
>
> Starter solenoid is sticking. Need replacement. NOT the starter,
> just the solenoid.
>
> >Reconnect battery cable, starter isn't still spinning this
> >time, turn key to start and the solenoid clicks like a
> >sumb*tch but the starter motor doesn't engage now
> >at all.
>
> Ya burned up the copper disk inside the solenoid. Now, you HAVE to
> replace the starter solenoid  ;o)
>
> >Can somebody tell me how a fault like this can be inside
> >the starter (this is still the "standard" starter, identical
> >to the one off of my 455 - it is not the lightweight metric
> >one) but yet still allow the solenoid to click properly?
>
> It's the copper disk inside the starter SOLENOID, not the starter
> itself or the ignition switch. Usually, these develop a burned spot
> that PREVENTS them from contacting and engaging the starter. In your
> case, it apparently started sticking while engaged.
>
> If the dang thang wasn't so hard to get at and get out, what we backyard
> mechanics used to do in the olden days was simply file down the burned
> spots on the disk and put it back together. That would usually last
> for a few more months, sometimes longer. However, there was usually
> colleteral damage: the bakelite housing holding the terminals would
> be overheated and either burned or cracked. This would happen because
> when the copper disk doesn't make good contact, it develops resistance
> and due to the current draw through that resistance, the disk gets
> superhot. Since the disk is in direct contact with the big terminals
> in the bakelite end cap, those terminals also get superhot which
> burns the bakelite. Often, the terminals will wind up being loose.
> This is often the cause of the starter engaging seemingly randomly
> while driving over a bump or down the highway: the terminals jounce
> around and intermittently make contact. I've even heard of a fire
> caused by this.
>
> >I sure suspected the ignition switch first...
>
> If you'd mentioned the problem here first, you would have already
> replaced the solenoid and had no further problems  ;o((((((  It's
> a very common starter problem on GM engines that are either very
> large (that huge-bore 403 takes a LOT of power to turn over) or have
> high compression (over 10:1 or thereabouts).
>
> I've never even heard of a failed ignition switch.
>
> SteveH
>
>
>
> ===================================================================
> EASY access to your email http://webmail.dandy.net/mr2/nph-mr.cgi
> ===================================================================
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 15:40:53 -0500
From: "Brian Ammons" <b_ammons@mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: RE: can a starter fail this way?

that's very detailed info, thank you!

I _have_ experienced a failed ignition switch - which caused two rounds of
blowing the fusible links in the PB before I tracked it down and replaced it
with the part that I have just now installed in the Pace Car.  I don't even
feel bad about having done it now that you've told me this info, as it would
have been replaced anyways upon moving into the dash for AutoMeter guage
wiring to support the future 455.

However, your point about asking on the list first is well taken.

- -----Original Message-----
From: oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca
[mailto:oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca]On Behalf Of SteveH
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 3:05 PM
To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: Re: can a starter fail this way?


At Monday, 24 May 2004, you wrote:
>It had done something similar since the time I bought it
>(during the first attempt to start it on any given day
>the starter would continue to be engaged with the key
>in a position other than "Start"), I had assumed it was
>a sticking ignition switch and (having one already on hand)
>I have since replaced it.

That's ALMOST ALWAYS the starter solenoid sticking, especially on
an engine that's taking a lot of starter power.

>Go to test fire it and - wow, it's doing the exact same thing
>(key in, turn key, starter turns, isn't catching, relax key
>to pump pedal, oh my god the starter's still spinning), RUN
>to battery to disconnect cable.

Starter solenoid is sticking. Need replacement. NOT the starter,
just the solenoid.

>Reconnect battery cable, starter isn't still spinning this
>time, turn key to start and the solenoid clicks like a
>sumb*tch but the starter motor doesn't engage now
>at all.

Ya burned up the copper disk inside the solenoid. Now, you HAVE to
replace the starter solenoid  ;o)

>Can somebody tell me how a fault like this can be inside
>the starter (this is still the "standard" starter, identical
>to the one off of my 455 - it is not the lightweight metric
>one) but yet still allow the solenoid to click properly?

It's the copper disk inside the starter SOLENOID, not the starter
itself or the ignition switch. Usually, these develop a burned spot
that PREVENTS them from contacting and engaging the starter. In your
case, it apparently started sticking while engaged.

If the dang thang wasn't so hard to get at and get out, what we backyard
mechanics used to do in the olden days was simply file down the burned
spots on the disk and put it back together. That would usually last
for a few more months, sometimes longer. However, there was usually
colleteral damage: the bakelite housing holding the terminals would
be overheated and either burned or cracked. This would happen because
when the copper disk doesn't make good contact, it develops resistance
and due to the current draw through that resistance, the disk gets
superhot. Since the disk is in direct contact with the big terminals
in the bakelite end cap, those terminals also get superhot which
burns the bakelite. Often, the terminals will wind up being loose.
This is often the cause of the starter engaging seemingly randomly
while driving over a bump or down the highway: the terminals jounce
around and intermittently make contact. I've even heard of a fire
caused by this.

>I sure suspected the ignition switch first...

If you'd mentioned the problem here first, you would have already
replaced the solenoid and had no further problems  ;o((((((  It's
a very common starter problem on GM engines that are either very
large (that huge-bore 403 takes a LOT of power to turn over) or have
high compression (over 10:1 or thereabouts).

I've never even heard of a failed ignition switch.

SteveH



===================================================================
EASY access to your email http://webmail.dandy.net/mr2/nph-mr.cgi
===================================================================

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #4900
*********************************
