
oldsmobile-digest       Thursday, July 8 2004       Volume 01 : Number 4945



RE: new find - rare engine
RE: [Fwd: R134]
Re:  Tires
RE: [Fwd: R134]
RE: [Fwd: R134]
Re: Troubleshooting '72 H/O
Re: Tires
Re: [Fwd: R134]
Re:Troubleshooting '72 H/O
Re: Trans Cooler Attachment Info
Rear antiroll bar 70 442
Re: Troubleshooting '72 H/O
RE: [Fwd: R134]
Re: Tires
Re: Tires
Re: The awakening.....freeze plugs
Re: The awakening.....freeze plugs
Re: Tires
Re: The awakening.....freeze plugs
Re: The awakening.....freeze plugs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 17:15:25 -0700
From: "Schopen, Kenneth" <kenneth.schopen@medtronic.com>
Subject: RE: new find - rare engine

> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:33:18 -0400
> From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
> Subject: new find - rare engine
> 
> Found a #4 head on a #8 headed 350 today
> Engine sported the A1 aluminum 2-bbl 260 intake also

snip


> - ----------------------
> Chris Witt

Wow, that engine must have been one heck of a performer, what 
with one 79cc head and one 64(?)cc head and that free flowing 
intake with those "high velocity" ports.

Kenneth
1971 Cutlass Supreme convertible
Phoenix, AZ

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 17:27:41 -0700
From: "Schopen, Kenneth" <kenneth.schopen@medtronic.com>
Subject: RE: [Fwd: R134]

> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 19:24:44 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
> From: dstaxpro@infionline.net
> Subject: RE: [Fwd: R134]
> 
> - -----Original Message-----
> From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg_o@hotmail.com>
> 
> >This system has a sight glass. Is it safe to assume standard 
> operation.
> >Sight glass should be clear no bubbles? Also what kind of low side
> >pressure should I be looking for? I'm gussing in the 30lb range, Yes?
> 
> Having a pressure gauge for a direct reading is a lot easier 
> to work with 
> than squinting for bubbles.
> 
> And takes all of the fun out of it for some of us hard headed 
> people.....

You know, the later R134A systems did not come with a sight glass on the accumulator. I assume there was a reason for that, maybe something to do with the fact that R134A operates at a higher pressure than R12. I would not use the "bubbles in the sight glass method" myself, but then again I would not use R134A, either. Too many better R12 substitutes out there. But heck, I line in Phoenix, where every degree of cooling is desperately needed, so my opinions are biased.

Kenneth
1971 Cutlass Supreme convertible
Phoenix, AZ

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:30:54 -0700
From: Joe & Gloria Varley <carcouple@cox.net>
Subject: Re:  Tires

3 weeks ago I put a new set of Yokahama Avids on our '98 Aurora.  So far 
they are excellent.  Excellent ride at all speeds, very quiet, and quiet on 
fast corners.  Have not been able to test wet traction since it rarely 
rains here.  Should be able to check that in about a month.  I replaced a 
set of  Nittos which had 58,00 miles on them.  The Nittos  were the 
noisiest tires I have ever owned.  I was beginning to wonder if I had some 
bad wheel bearings, they were so noisy. The quiet was instantly noticable 
with the Yokahamas.

Joe Varley
      AZ

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 20:03:24 -0700
From: Mark Mullins <mark@marineaviation.org>
Subject: RE: [Fwd: R134]

I'll have to agree with Kenneth.  My current version of "cooling" is the 
vent windows open wide at 65mph.

M

At 05:27 PM 7/7/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>You know, the later R134A systems did not come with a sight glass on the 
>accumulator. I assume there was a reason for that, maybe something to do 
>with the fact that R134A operates at a higher pressure than R12. I would 
>not use the "bubbles in the sight glass method" myself, but then again I 
>would not use R134A, either. Too many better R12 substitutes out there. 
>But heck, I line in Phoenix, where every degree of cooling is desperately 
>needed, so my opinions are biased.
>
>Kenneth
>1971 Cutlass Supreme convertible
>Phoenix, AZ

Mark Mullins
Tucson, Az

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 23:45:09 -0400
From: Joe Vahabzadeh <king_v@mindless.com>
Subject: RE: [Fwd: R134]

>At 05:27 PM 7/7/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>>You know, the later R134A systems did not come with a sight glass on the 
>>accumulator. I assume there was a reason for that, maybe something to do 
>>with the fact that R134A operates at a higher pressure than R12. I would 
>>not use the "bubbles in the sight glass method" myself

I seem to recall reading somewhere very specifically that with R134, you
can not rely on the bubbles in the glass method.

	- Joe Vahabzadeh

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 21:57:51 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Troubleshooting '72 H/O

Bill,

> I 'll make those suggestions to him to see if we can come up with any more
> details. The engine is all original except for the 8 qt oil pan and high
> volume pump. It has @ 45000 miles on it.


Please be sure to do the leaking exhaust valve check. Did he use the windage
tray to go with the 8 quart oil pan?


> You don't think it could be a spun bearing do you? What kind of sound
would
> that make?


You wouldn't have to worry about any noise if that happened. When a rod
bearing spins, it usually occurs while the car is cruising down the road.
When the car is slowed to a stop, the spun bearing looses what oil pressure
was there and instantly galls and welds to the rod journal on the crank,
which will lock the engine, shutting it off permanently.

He doesn't have a spun rod bearing, yet. He could have a beaten one, but
it's not spun yet. His engine still runs.

I've had a spun rod bearing 3 times in the past and one failed rod bolt.
Failed rod bolts deliver the rod through the side of the block, almost every
time.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 03:56:49 EDT
From: WlJam5@aol.com
Subject: Re: Tires

- -------------------------------1089273409
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 what else. nothing made in USA . I will be looking for a pair of tires. SOME 
very price sensible places are the junkyards. the cars today are qickly 
mauled in a fender bender.bthe consequence is many unused very low mileage tires 
show up there at less thean 1/2 price of retail. most jap tires are marked up 
500% as they are imports the money  our UNCLE GETS is from the usa consummer as 
the japan maker increases to offset such. we end up  in the scam. as in 
everything the born here usa  AMERICANS GET SCREWED WHY ARE u turned on by the 
foriegner's? 

- -------------------------------1089273409
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; cha=
rset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fffff=
f">&nbsp;what else. nothing made in USA . I will be looking for a pair of ti=
res. SOME very price sensible places are the junkyards. the cars today are q=
ickly mauled in a fender bender.bthe consequence is many unused very low mil=
eage tires show up there at less thean 1/2 price of retail. most jap tires a=
re marked up 500% as they are imports the money&nbsp; our UNCLE GETS is from=
 the usa consummer as the japan maker increases to offset such. we end up&nb=
sp; in the scam. as in everything the born here usa&nbsp; AMERICANS GET SCRE=
WED WHY ARE u turned on by the foriegner's?&nbsp;</BODY></HTML>

- -------------------------------1089273409--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 06:15:35 -0400
From: John Kelsey <ribspot@pop4.net>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: R134]

Schopen, Kenneth wrote:
>>Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 19:24:44 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
>>From: dstaxpro@infionline.net
>>Subject: RE: [Fwd: R134]
>>
>>- -----Original Message-----
>>From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg_o@hotmail.com>
>>
>>>This system has a sight glass. Is it safe to assume standard 
>>
>>operation.
>>
>>>Sight glass should be clear no bubbles? Also what kind of low side
>>>pressure should I be looking for? I'm gussing in the 30lb range, Yes?
>>
>>Having a pressure gauge for a direct reading is a lot easier 
>>to work with 
>>than squinting for bubbles.
>>
>>And takes all of the fun out of it for some of us hard headed 
>>people.....
> 
> 
> You know, the later R134A systems did not come with a sight glass on the accumulator. I assume there was a reason for that, maybe something to do with the fact that R134A operates at a higher pressure than R12. I would not use the "bubbles in the sight glass method" myself, but then again I would not use R134A, either. Too many better R12 substitutes out there. But heck, I line in Phoenix, where every degree of cooling is desperately needed, so my opinions are biased.
> 
> Kenneth
> 1971 Cutlass Supreme convertible
> Phoenix, AZ
> 
> 
Hi All
    Thanks for all the responses. I was and still am an A/C tech for 
R-12 systems. I have no experience with 134. This vehicle is a chrysler 
mini van which appears to need a partial charge. I am going the meijers 
route for the low side hose with a gauge and several cans of 134 for 
around 30 bucks. Seems to be the best solution. As an aside I changed 
the accumaltor and the orifice tube in my 80 toro and recharged it with 
freeze 12 (an R-12 substitute) It's cheap around 4 bucks a pound here. I 
was courious as to how well it works hence the test. It works great and 
even though I have almost 30lbs or r-12 I'm saving it for some of the 
other cars.
thanks again
John Kelsey
Dayton Ohio

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 08:57:39 -0400
From: "Paul Tumolo" <ptumolo@comcast.net>
Subject: Re:Troubleshooting '72 H/O

The first place to look is the torque converter bolts. They can make a
knocking noise when loose.

However, the low oil pressure is worrisome. Sounds like a bad rod
bearing.

This will require the engine to be pulled and inspected.

Paul Tumolo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:03:38 -0400
From: "Paul Tumolo" <ptumolo@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Trans Cooler Attachment Info

I use the factory set up for the cooler plumbing.

Trans out to radiator cooler inlet
Radiator cooler outlet to inlet of auxiallary cooler
Auxillary cooler outlet back to trans

This is in the factory asembly manual.

HTH

Paul Tumolo 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:01:53 -0500
From: "Ian Dixon" <IDixon@sbrc.ca>
Subject: Rear antiroll bar 70 442

This question is about suspension parts interchange between various GM
platforms.  Would the rear antiroll (sway) bar on my 1970 442 (A-body)
swap over with 2nd gen WS6-equipped Camaro/Firechicken (F-body) or
1970's - 1996 B-body antiroll bars (fullsize Chubby, Buick)?  I have
access to many parts 

I know for sure that a front suspension antiroll bar from F-body stuff
will swap over to a B-body, as I swapped a WS6 spec front bar to my 9c1
last summer.  As always, any help is appreciated.

Thanks,
Ian Dixon    

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:58:27 -0400
From: SteveH <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: Troubleshooting '72 H/O

At Wednesday, 7 July 2004, you wrote:
>> You don't think it could be a spun bearing do you? What 
>>kind of sound would that make?
>
>You wouldn't have to worry about any noise if that happened. 
>When a rod bearing spins, it usually occurs while the car is 
>cruising down the road. When the car is slowed to a stop, 
>the spun bearing looses what oil pressure was there and 
>instantly galls and welds to the rod journal on the crank,
>which will lock the engine, shutting it off permanently.

The end result mentioned above is an extreme case and things don't 
usually get that far, except in the case of Ch*bbies where it is,
indeed, common and then, the rod disintegrates and shoots out the 
pan.

On GOOD engines, though, more often (at least, initially), the rod 
bearing doesn't weld itself to either the crank or rod but slips 
and spins and slips again. There is a knock that gets louder and 
louder the longer you run the engine or the higher the rpm. Oil pressure 
never disappears completely, just drops noticeably, since a spun 
rod bearing doesn't block any oil passages to the rest of the block.


I and my high school buddy spun literally a dozen rod bearings on 
Ponchos in the early days compared to only a couple of main bearings;
we became "experts" in those things.... at least, on Ponchos  ;o((((

>He doesn't have a spun rod bearing, yet. He could have a beaten 
>one, but it's not spun yet. His engine still runs.

If the noise disappears at higher rpm, I'll agree: it's not spun 
yet. But it also sounds to me more like a bad main bearing, which 
initially seems to quiet down a lot at higher rpm but is quite noticeable 
at low rpm... at least, on Ponchos. I noticed on the Ch*bbies I had,
though, that once a knock started at ANY rpm, you could always hear 
it thereafter at any other rpm. I always attributed that to the flexibility 
of the crank/block.

>Failed rod bolts deliver the rod through the side of the block, 
>almost every time.

Had one that oh-so-reluctantly brought what was left of the piston 
with it, too  ===============8-O

SteveH



===================================================================
EASY access to your email http://webmail.dandy.net/mr2/nph-mr.cgi
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 10:51:18 -0400
From: Robert Barry <rbarry@postoffice.providence.edu>
Subject: RE: [Fwd: R134]

At 11:45 PM 7/7/2004, you wrote:
> >At 05:27 PM 7/7/2004 -0700, you wrote:
> >>You know, the later R134A systems did not come with a sight glass on the
> >>accumulator. I assume there was a reason for that, maybe something to do
> >>with the fact that R134A operates at a higher pressure than R12. I would
> >>not use the "bubbles in the sight glass method" myself
>
>I seem to recall reading somewhere very specifically that with R134, you
>can not rely on the bubbles in the glass method.

When I had my Grand Wagoneer converted to R134a, the A/C mechanic (that's 
all this shop does) said that R-134a works better at lower pressure, and 
that the sight-glass would show a fine stream of bubbles when it had just 
enough in the system. Of course, that's not very scientific, but it's 
better than nothing.


_______________________________________
Bob Barry  MailTo:rbarry@providence.edu
http://home.off-road.com/~wagoneer/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 09:42:26 -0600
From: Cliff Simpson <csimpson@ucalgary.ca>
Subject: Re: Tires

They say that a million monkeys typing at a million typewriters for a 
million years could produce Hamlet or at least Waiting for Godot.

WlJam5@aol.com wrote:
>  what else. nothing made in USA . I will be looking for a pair of tires. 
> SOME very price sensible places are the junkyards. the cars today are 
> qickly mauled in a fender bender.bthe consequence is many unused very 
> low mileage tires show up there at less thean 1/2 price of retail. most 
> jap tires are marked up 500% as they are imports the money  our UNCLE 
> GETS is from the usa consummer as the japan maker increases to offset 
> such. we end up  in the scam. as in everything the born here usa  
> AMERICANS GET SCREWED WHY ARE u turned on by the foriegner's? 

10 monkeys, 10 typewriters, 10 minutes tops. :0
- -- 

Cliff "You ain't communicating if nobody can understands you." Simpson
http://www.ucalgary.ca/~csimpson/TheOldsZone.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 17:12:37 -0400
From: "M. Gillespie" <mick442@rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Tires

> 10 monkeys, 10 typewriters, 10 minutes tops. :0
> -- 
> 
> Cliff "You ain't communicating if nobody can understands you." Simpson
> http://www.ucalgary.ca/~csimpson/TheOldsZone.html

ROTFLMAO

Mick Gillespie 
1969 442 Conv. (clone)
1980 Toro
http://members.rogers.com/mick442/oldspage.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 15:47:29 -0600
From: Cliff Simpson <csimpson@ucalgary.ca>
Subject: Re: The awakening.....freeze plugs

Kurt wrote:

> Finally fired up the '69 today, and it runs!!!

Congratulations.

> ....  The two back freeze plugs are
> leaking like a sieve, though. They look like they had been installed not too
> long ago, and may have been installed incorrectly. ...
> How do I remove the old freeze plugs?  Any tips on installing new ones?  I
> want to do this without removing the engine, of course.

I was waiting for someone more knowledgeable to post a reply but since 
none did ...

Just take a chisel and hammer on one side of the plug so it will turn 
enough that you can grab it and pull it out.  Even if you push the whole 
plug into the engine I don't believe it will go far and you will be able 
to grab it with pliers or channel locks and pull it out.  Then you can 
either buy stock metal ones or the rubber type that expand as you 
tighten a nut.

 From a Dodge posting, may not be applicable:
If you use the original metal type then the convex, or high spot should 
be towards the outside.  Put a thin film of the hardening type of 
permatex around the inner edge and then insert the plug.  Use a steel
drift and dent in the centre.  That will expand the plug and seal the hole.

If you choose to go with a non original core plug they are copper 
looking on the outside with a brass acorn nut.  I believe NAPA carries 
them as Balkamp part number 600-4029 6 pc 1- 3/4" or such, 1- 3/4" might 
not be the correct size for Olds so you should measure the holes first, 
but it should get you in the right ballpark for parts lookup.

Of course you should always exercise caution when you are beating on the 
side of your motor with a hammer.  Miss the punch with your BAH and you 
can have a different kind of hole in the block :0

Good luck,
- --

There is no problem that a sufficiently large hammer swung with 
sufficient force cannot make worse.
http://www.ucalgary.ca/~csimpson/TheOldsZone.html

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 21:59:58 +0000
From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg_o@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: The awakening.....freeze plugs

>From a Dodge posting, may not be applicable:
>If you use the original metal type then the convex, or high spot should be 
>towards the outside.  Put a thin film of the hardening type of permatex 
>around the inner edge and then insert the plug.

That sounds a bit bass-ackwards as regards the GM installations: the ones 
I've seen are all pressed in with the concave side facing out. Thus...

>Use a steel drift and dent in the centre.  That will expand the plug
>and seal the hole.

...the _removal_ process is to dent in slightly off-center as described 
above; as you are hitting it on its concave side, this will cause the flange 
nearest the dent to turn in slightly, away from the edge of the hole, so 
that you can then grab it with locking pliers and yank it out the rest of 
the way.

Installing one involves using a drift that's roughly the diameter of the 
plug itself, so that you drive it in by its flange rather than by its 
center.

- -- Andy

_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! 
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 16:19:22 -0700
From: Scott Alfter <scott@alfter.us>
Subject: Re: Tires

On Thu, Jul 08, 2004 at 09:42:26AM -0600, Cliff Simpson wrote:
> They say that a million monkeys typing at a million typewriters for a 
> million years could produce Hamlet or at least Waiting for Godot.
> 
> WlJam5@aol.com wrote:
> >[semi-comprehensible AOLer gibberish snipped]
> 
> 10 monkeys, 10 typewriters, 10 minutes tops. :0

He shoots...he scores! :-)

  _/_  Scott Alfter (scott@alfter.us)
 / v \ '77 Cutlass Supreme Brougham
(IIGS( http://alfter.us/            Top-posting!
 \_^_/ rm -rf /bin/laden            >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 19:34:41 -0400
From: Joe Vahabzadeh <king_v@mindless.com>
Subject: Re: The awakening.....freeze plugs

At 09:59 PM 07/08/2004 +0000, Andy wrote:
>>From a Dodge posting, may not be applicable:
>>If you use the original metal type then the convex, or high spot should be 
>>towards the outside.  Put a thin film of the hardening type of permatex 
>>around the inner edge and then insert the plug.
>
>That sounds a bit bass-ackwards as regards the GM installations: the ones 
>I've seen are all pressed in with the concave side facing out. Thus...
>

In the days when Mopars were still affordable and I had one . . . I'd agree
with Andy.  If I recall, my 318 had the concave side facing out.

I couldn't for the life of me figure how to get a new one in properly, so I
went with the rubber expansion type.  I seem to recall that there's
supposed to be some sort of drawback to using those, but I can't remember
what.


	- Joe Vahabzadeh

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 01:18:06 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: The awakening.....freeze plugs

At 09:59 PM 7/8/2004 +0000, you wrote:
>Installing one involves using a drift that's roughly the diameter 
>of the plug itself, so that you drive it in by its flange rather 
>than by its center.

I always used a large socket pounded by a 2x4.

SteveH

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #4945
*********************************
