
oldsmobile-digest     Tuesday, September 28 2004     Volume 01 : Number 5036



Re: Seeking input from folks who have had car JUDGING REGISTRATIONproblems
Re: The Olds Engine's Advantages
Re: RE:Olds Eng. Advantages/beehive
Re: ADMIN: Limited Admin Possible Next Week
Re: The Olds Engine's Advantages
Re: A posi that works!
Re: ADMIN: Limited Admin Possible Next Week
Re: ADMIN: Limited Admin Possible Next Week
RE: A posi that works!
Re: The Olds Engine's Advantages
Re: A posi that works!
Re: balancer bolt torque, formerly Re: Day at the races pics/gre=
Re: The Olds Engine's Advantages
Re: Sound Deadening Project
Dynamat alternatives
RE: Sound Deadening Project
Re: The Olds Engine's Advantages
Re: The Olds Engine's Advantages
Re: The Olds Engine's Advantages
RE: FS: NOS "turkey tray" intake manifold gaskets
balancer bolt torque
RE: balancer bolt torque
RE: Better deal than GM parts direct
Re: Seeking input from folks who have had car JUDGING REGISTRATION
balancer bolt torque
RE: balancer bolt torque
Specail Tool SP-001: HarBal and Diff Yoke
Re: balancer bolt torque, formerly Re: Day at the races pics/gregs NW. Tour
OCA judging process handled poorly

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:11:22 -0700
From: "Rick & Roxanne" <aremessenger@icehouse.net>
Subject: Re: Seeking input from folks who have had car JUDGING REGISTRATIONproblems

Do you think this will happen with the Presidential election?  HUM!  Rick
Messenger
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: <bcroe@juno.com>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 3:23 PM
Subject: Seeking input from folks who have had car JUDGING
REGISTRATIONproblems


> 27 Sep 2004  NUOLDSMAN@aol.com writes:
> > all of the judging sheet information for each car was entered
> > into a  computer, then the judging sheets were destroyed.
> > Then the computer  crashed.
>
> Ballots are saved after an election, in case there is a
> recount.  Maybe a good lesson there?  Bruce Roe
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:12:47 -0700
From: "Rick & Roxanne" <aremessenger@icehouse.net>
Subject: Re: The Olds Engine's Advantages

I'll second that motion!  Rick Messenger
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ron fama" <77w30442@comcast.net>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: The Olds Engine's Advantages


> i think he should write a book. what i like the most about milton when it
comes to engine building
> he always gives us great advice,
> ron
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <KS7RACING@aol.com>
> To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
> Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 7:21 PM
> Subject: The Olds Engine's Advantages
>
>
> > In a message dated 9/27/04 1:51:27 AM Central Daylight Time,
imp@theriver.com
> > writes:
> > -- I never knew that beehive valve springs would work that well. What's
> > interesting is that beehive valve springs are not new.
> >
> > The valve springs on all 394 Olds engines are beehives! I guess Olds R&D
were
> > a bit ahead of their time. Too bad Olds didn't keep the beehive valve
springs
> > on the new second generation engines in '64 and '65. --
> >
> > Milton,
> >
> > Seriously, I'd really like to see you compile all the great points
you've
> > posted over the years regarding how the Oldsmobile engines (primarily
those
> > post-1964) are superior to, say the Brand C stuff.  I have this clown at
work that
> > likes to try to get under my skin about how Olds engines are inferior to
"his"
> > engines, and have pointed out a lot of what you've posted over the years
as
> > well as an observation or two of my own.  For example:
> >
> > Take a look at the port spacing on the "latest and greatest" Brand C
NASCAR
> > engines, compared to the older, garden-variety Brand C's.  The newer
heads look
> > more like the port spacing on our beloved Oldsmobiles!  We could go on
and on
> > about exhaust exits versus spark plug locations, far superior valve
cover
> > sealing (four bolts don't cut it), better fuel pump operation (you have
to use a
> > bolt to hold in the fuel pump rod when you change the pump, they even
have a
> > hole in the block you take a short bolt out of to put the longer one
in), my
> > list has a couple of others.
> >
> > With your background (wealth of info from the Can-Am days and all the
work on
> > Thunder) you'd be the one I'd pick.  So whaddya say?
> >
> > Take Care,
> > SrA Ken Snyder
> > Kansas City, Kansas
> >
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:14:34 -0700
From: "Rick & Roxanne" <aremessenger@icehouse.net>
Subject: Re: RE:Olds Eng. Advantages/beehive

Is Wandy Speaking Canadian?
Rick
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Cutlass7276@netscape.net>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 6:24 PM
Subject: RE:Olds Eng. Advantages/beehive


> Hello
> Some of the 1958 371s came with beehive and some with the dampner inside
the spring,i think they started to swich over mid year.
> This is even mentioned in the 58 Shop man.,the retainers are diff.
> I converted to beehive.
> My fav. Olds Advantage was the recent thread, Cam walking into the frt
cover of the C brands due to Dis. direction.
> I hit the hard headed Chebbie buddy at work with this one also.
> Next fav, would be C brand has to rev like crazy to get the torque our
lower revs make :), sounds like Olds would last longer eh.
> But what would be really kewl is to just give him a whole list and sit and
smile while he reads :)
> Oh right the "cats" away.......I cjhgd uje a bhgw jhb.
> Wandy H.
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Switch to Netscape Internet Service.
> As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at
http://isp.netscape.com/register
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>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:18:32 -0700
From: "Rick & Roxanne" <aremessenger@icehouse.net>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Limited Admin Possible Next Week

Hey fella's, I know what we can do while Greg is gone ; let's start a Yugo
list! What do you think?
Rick
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ron fama" <77w30442@comcast.net>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Limited Admin Possible Next Week


> as they say while the cats away the mice will play.
>  lol
> unfortunately between cheer leading and foot ball i'm very tired. plus the
nylons just crawl all up
> on me. only kidding the girls cheer leading and boy in foot ball so I wont
have much time to start
> anything. but always willing to partake.
>  lol
> Ron
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg_o@hotmail.com>
> To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
> Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 1:27 PM
> Subject: Re: ADMIN: Limited Admin Possible Next Week
>
>
> > Greg! Greg! Steve is saying that he's going to play when you're not
around...
> >
> > ...and... ...and...
> >
> > ...and Ron says he's going to start a political war...
> >
> > ...and... ...and...
> >
> > ...and Rick says he's gonna start emailing in HTML again...
> >
> > ...and I think Chris Witt is making funny faces at me when I'm not
looking even though I didn't
> > see him doing it but I know he's doing it because I just know it.
> >
> > You gotta make them stop!
> >
> > -- Andy (who really needs to get out from babysitting duty because it's
been three bloody days now
> > and the spouse got to go to the Bears game in Minneapolis with her
relatives and I said I would
> > gallantly stay home and babysit while she gets a chance to get out of
the house for a few days and
> > jeez it's going to be quite some time before I agree to that again...)
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
> > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
> >
> >
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 04:01:50 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: The Olds Engine's Advantages

At 08:47 PM 9/27/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>i think he should write a book. what i like the most about milton 
>when it comes to engine building he always gives us great advice,

WE WANT VIDEO!!!!!  ;o)))))

Milton's book would be far more truthful than Moneydullah's abortion.

SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 00:32:52 -0400
From: "Randy Geisel" <rocket455@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A posi that works!

> The good news is, both tires work together all the time, and that's what I
> was after.

As in you hop around corners 'cause the posi doesn't disengage?

Randy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 04:51:07 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Limited Admin Possible Next Week

At 09:18 PM 9/27/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>Hey fella's, I know what we can do while Greg is gone ; let's start a Yugo
>list! What do you think?

... but where would you find one these days??  ;o((((((

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 22:08:42 -0700
From: "Rick & Roxanne" <aremessenger@icehouse.net>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Limited Admin Possible Next Week

Probably Canada.  Rick
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Harrison" <k0xp@dandy.net>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Limited Admin Possible Next Week


> At 09:18 PM 9/27/2004 -0700, you wrote:
> >Hey fella's, I know what we can do while Greg is gone ; let's start a
Yugo
> >list! What do you think?
>
> ... but where would you find one these days??  ;o((((((
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 02:24:28 -0400
From: Cutlass7276@netscape.net
Subject: RE: A posi that works!

"Dave Wyatt" <wyattolds@hotmail.com> wrote:
Once we get the wheel spin under 
control to the point it spins the same all the time, the car will be 
competitive.
>>>>>
Hi Dave
Around here ya cant make any mistakes if ya want even a chance of winning..some real long time racers here.
No wheel spin at all is acceptable if ya wanna dial in a time accurate.
If ya cant get that monster to hook with what ever tire ya useing you will have to throw some wieght in the trunk or take some timing out of motor..anything to slow down the tire spin.
What size and press. tires?
Yes you wont go as fast but at least you will be consistent with no wheel spin.
just my LATE night two cents..i go sleep now.
Good luck Dave!
Randy H.





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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 23:39:44 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: The Olds Engine's Advantages

> With your background (wealth of info from the Can-Am days and all the work
on
> Thunder) you'd be the one I'd pick.  So whaddya say?


Ken, Steve, Randy, Ron, Rick, and all the rest, thanks for the vote of
confidence. I'll see what I can do. My hands are kind of full right now
taking care of Mary. It's one-day-at-a-time. Too bad I couldn't turn it into
a money making proposition. The first manuscript has continually fallen on
deaf ears. It's out again right now hoping that person will bite. Steve
knows what I'm talking about. Meanwhile, I'll start making a list that Ken
and Randy and anyone else can use to hit a Chevy guy between the eyes with.
Actually, I've got a lot of info and thoughts compiled in another form. I
just need to transfer those and add to it.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 23:47:04 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: A posi that works!

> Around here ya cant make any mistakes if ya want even a chance of
winning..some real long time racers here.
> No wheel spin at all is acceptable if ya wanna dial in a time accurate.
> If ya cant get that monster to hook with what ever tire ya useing you will
have to throw some wieght in the trunk or take some timing out of
motor..anything to slow down the tire spin.


Or put the 4.11, or something steeper, back in to slow tire rotation, which
could mean you might have to use a stronger clutch setup or just accept more
frequent clutch changes.

How do you stage? How do you bring the car out-of-the-hole? What RPM is the
engine held at waiting for the light when the clutch is dropped? Do you know
for certain where the torque peak RPM is? And like Randy asked:
> What size and press. tires?

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 05:01:01 -0400
From: "Zito, James A (GE Energy)" <james.zito@ps.ge.com>
Subject: Re: balancer bolt torque, formerly Re: Day at the races pics/gre=

>From SteveH:

Well, heck's bells: how come torque wrenches have scales for both=20
CW and CCW direction, then, eh  ;o(((((((


Steve you ever hear of left hand threads???  Like on the cars of youth's
wheels on the driver's side where the sucker spins counter clockwise?????

Torque wrenches should never be used to break fasteners free!! It is one of
the first warnings in the instructions.  

It drives me nuts when I am watching Trucks or PHR when I see those idiots
breaking down a suspension with a torque wrench.  

There IS A REASON they make a tool named a BREAKER BAR!!!!!

Not ragging on you personally just having a less than fun time in the
Canaries and have also just found out  I get to spend the next 3 weeks in
England with nothing but summer clothes ;-((((((()

Jin
69 442 conv in pieces
......none removed with a torque wrench

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 02:48:49 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: The Olds Engine's Advantages

Along these lines, I thought I'd mention one other item. Most of you will
remember the discussions about long rods and their benefits. Also, you may
remember Smokey Yunick's sage advice to always run the longest rod that will
fit inside the crankcase. Finally, the minimum ideal rod length to stroke
ratio is considered to be 1.7 to 1. Smokey always said he would like to have
a 2.0 to 1 RL/S.

The Olds 394 and Chrysler 392 Hemi were the dominating engines in AA/Fuel,
AA/Gas, B/Fuel, and B/Gas dragsters from '59 to '65. Guess what the rod
length to stroke ratio is on an Olds 394? 1.9 to 1. (7.0" long rod and
3.6875" stroke, stock) Excess torque production anyone? Randy, are 371 rods
the same length as 394 rods? I know the stroke is the same. Randy's 371
could also be at 1.9 to 1 RL/S. If so, Randy's 371 J-2 really, really needs
a good set of headers to let her breathe.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 05:49:25 -0500
From: Stephen Reed <ssreed@direcway.com>
Subject: Re: Sound Deadening Project

Dave,
	What can you recommend?

Thanx,

- -Steve 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca 
> [mailto:oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca] On Behalf Of Dave Cullen
> Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 6:18 AM
> To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
> Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: Sound Deadening Project
> 
> > It was well worth the 3 hours and $250 to do it.
> >
> > If you are redoing your interior, or want some sound reduction, 
> > DynaMat is the way to go.
> 
> Shudda inquired here first... there are alternatives to 
> Dynamat that are 1/2 the price.
> 
> drc
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:39:49 -0400
From: "Dave Cullen" <david.cullen@snet.net>
Subject: Dynamat alternatives

Per requests:

http://www.b-quiet.com/brownbread.html
http://www.secondskinaudio.com/

My personal favorite:
http://www.raamaudio.com/

And the low budget alternative, same stuff but marketed as roll roofing
material:
http://www.mfmbp.com/peelseal/

The latter is often available in roofing dept's at Home Depot's etc. in 6"
or 12" wide rolls.

drc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:51:59 -0400
From: Tom Bejma <tomcb@prplastics.com>
Subject: RE: Sound Deadening Project

I've used this stuff for insulating doors on a stereo installation:

http://www.b-quiet.com/brownbread.html

Plan on using it for the floor of my convertible also.  Doesn't have the
same fancy name printed on it like Dynomat, but it accomplishes the same
goals - reducing noise and heat.  Definitely get the roller to help with the
install.

Tom Bejma
Harrison Twp., MI
69 Cutlass S Convertible
[H/O Reproduction]


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Reed [mailto:ssreed@direcway.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 6:49 AM
> To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
> Subject: Re: Sound Deadening Project
> 
> 
> Dave,
> 	What can you recommend?
> 
> Thanx,
> 
> -Steve 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca 
> > [mailto:oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca] On Behalf Of Dave Cullen
> > Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 6:18 AM
> > To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
> > Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: Sound Deadening Project
> > 
> > > It was well worth the 3 hours and $250 to do it.
> > >
> > > If you are redoing your interior, or want some sound reduction, 
> > > DynaMat is the way to go.
> > 
> > Shudda inquired here first... there are alternatives to 
> > Dynamat that are 1/2 the price.
> > 
> > drc
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 08:30:50 -0400
From: "ron fama" <77w30442@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: The Olds Engine's Advantages

i fully understand what youre saying but when i asked the machine shop about installing the 425 rods 
in my 455 i was handed a  tech article from car craft called trueth about rod lengths. in the end 
they  said it did not matter,
what is the deal with that. one note it was  on a chevy, i have seen youre dyno results . they speak 
for them selves.  good grief  just ask any 4 guys how they port olds heads and forget it. not 1 
person has agreed. but say on the wet flow bench the numbers speak. again i guess its just one of 
those area's where its personal choice.
any way  thank you for  shareing youre knowledge.  i can say i have had some great 455's in the past 
and some junk.
things got better when i did stuff myself and only farmed out area's i was not sure of. and asked 
more quistions just to get several different answers, aside from you milton  dave smith engineering 
is a great soarce of info.
it just bothers me that i get mixed answeres about certain area's of the olds engine.
thanks
ron
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 5:48 AM
Subject: Re: The Olds Engine's Advantages


> Along these lines, I thought I'd mention one other item. Most of you will
> remember the discussions about long rods and their benefits. Also, you may
> remember Smokey Yunick's sage advice to always run the longest rod that will
> fit inside the crankcase. Finally, the minimum ideal rod length to stroke
> ratio is considered to be 1.7 to 1. Smokey always said he would like to have
> a 2.0 to 1 RL/S.
>
> The Olds 394 and Chrysler 392 Hemi were the dominating engines in AA/Fuel,
> AA/Gas, B/Fuel, and B/Gas dragsters from '59 to '65. Guess what the rod
> length to stroke ratio is on an Olds 394? 1.9 to 1. (7.0" long rod and
> 3.6875" stroke, stock) Excess torque production anyone? Randy, are 371 rods
> the same length as 394 rods? I know the stroke is the same. Randy's 371
> could also be at 1.9 to 1 RL/S. If so, Randy's 371 J-2 really, really needs
> a good set of headers to let her breathe.
>
> Milton Schick
> 1964 442 Cutlass
> imp@theriver.com
>
>
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 08:33:22 -0400
From: "ron fama" <77w30442@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: The Olds Engine's Advantages

looking forward to it
 also contact the car mags. see if they could help you  publish a book on how to hot rod  any olds 
v-8 and leave the chevy guys amazed.
thanks again
ron
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 2:39 AM
Subject: Re: The Olds Engine's Advantages


>> With your background (wealth of info from the Can-Am days and all the work
> on
>> Thunder) you'd be the one I'd pick.  So whaddya say?
>
>
> Ken, Steve, Randy, Ron, Rick, and all the rest, thanks for the vote of
> confidence. I'll see what I can do. My hands are kind of full right now
> taking care of Mary. It's one-day-at-a-time. Too bad I couldn't turn it into
> a money making proposition. The first manuscript has continually fallen on
> deaf ears. It's out again right now hoping that person will bite. Steve
> knows what I'm talking about. Meanwhile, I'll start making a list that Ken
> and Randy and anyone else can use to hit a Chevy guy between the eyes with.
> Actually, I've got a lot of info and thoughts compiled in another form. I
> just need to transfer those and add to it.
>
> Milton Schick
> 1964 442 Cutlass
> imp@theriver.com
>
>
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 08:45:37 -0400
From: "ron fama" <77w30442@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: The Olds Engine's Advantages

hers one for you milton
the dyna rev idea.
we talked about this and i even found the guy who did it. every one i talked to either had no clue 
or just said its not benni ficial to the engine. again youre dyno numbers do not lie.
the few guys who remember the concept flat out said it was to increase strength on the ctr of crank.
its not in any way to  be a dig at you but to show the vast kind of responses i get.  i wish it were 
1969 and i could afford to build 6 455's 1 youre way and the rest other peoples way. install and 
chassis dyno the engine and let real world set the  myths apart. from fact. youre car certainly does 
that now. it has withstood the test of time, and lived as daily driver  to the childish racey side 
of you.  meaning its been run hard.
a friend  told me to build it like he did his 454 and when he said to fly cut the pistons i laughed, 
he asked why. i said olds dont need  high domed to buils compression. and the cam is pro street 
choice would do nothing for me.  i have actually gotten old olds build up articles and compared 
build up tech. 90% use the  retarted oil resrictors.  and other other things they dont do.
ron
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Harrison" <k0xp@dandy.net>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 12:01 AM
Subject: Re: The Olds Engine's Advantages


> At 08:47 PM 9/27/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>>i think he should write a book. what i like the most about milton
>>when it comes to engine building he always gives us great advice,
>
> WE WANT VIDEO!!!!!  ;o)))))
>
> Milton's book would be far more truthful than Moneydullah's abortion.
>
> SteveH
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 08:56:30 -0400
From: "John Nasta" <email@johnnasta.com>
Subject: RE: FS: NOS "turkey tray" intake manifold gaskets

Thanks to all who responded. I do have a taker on the gaskets.

John Nasta

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 00:14:05 -0500
From: bcroe@juno.com
Subject: balancer bolt torque

Oldsmobile V8 maintenance Rule Number 1: Change 
the timing chain.  

It is possible to check how much slop is in the chain, 
without taking apart the engine.  But an old OEM chain 
(with plastic cam sprocket teeth) should be changed 
regardless, or one day IT will pick for you the time to change.

Bruce (doesn't like plastic teeth in the oil pan) Roe

28 Sep 2004  Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net> writes:
> Made a crank holder tonight, got the bolt loose, the 
> balancer off, timing cover off, and lo and behold: 
> cam gear's wasted. Tis a wonder it ran as it did.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:26:39 -0400
From: "John Nasta" <email@johnnasta.com>
Subject: RE: balancer bolt torque

When my 455 picked a time for me to rebuild it, the reason it spun a bearing
was because the oil pickup tube was clogged with little bits of nylon.

John Nasta



- -----Original Message-----

Oldsmobile V8 maintenance Rule Number 1: Change
the timing chain.

It is possible to check how much slop is in the chain,
without taking apart the engine.  But an old OEM chain
(with plastic cam sprocket teeth) should be changed
regardless, or one day IT will pick for you the time to change.

Bruce (doesn't like plastic teeth in the oil pan) Roe

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:21:27 -0400
From: "John Nasta" <email@johnnasta.com>
Subject: RE: Better deal than GM parts direct

Does she know about Roxanne now? :)

I also have had to become much stricter about returns, especially when A) I
had to order the part especially for the customer B) it is a slow mover or
it's the only time the part has ever been requested and/or C) it's not my
fault.

I recently had a customer return a set of wheel well moldings for a Caprice
because "when the car came out of the paint shop he decided he liked the way
it looked without them". I was able to return them but I lost about $15 on
shipping just because the guy changed his mind. That's exactly the type of
thing I have had to get tougher about. There are lots of other stories like
that but I'll spare you the diatribe.

I don't even want to know the value of the parts here that are returns that
I may never sell. I've even tried to put some of them on ebay at cost or
barely above cost w/o them selling. I've found that ebay is no good for
high-dollar repro items unless you are practically giving them away. Anybody
need a deluxe set of OEM-style window felts for a 1963 Impala convertible?
How about a header panel for a 67-69 Camaro?

John Nasta

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:40:29 +0000
From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg_o@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Seeking input from folks who have had car JUDGING REGISTRATION

>The only issues I've had were more of just me being anal.
>I registered my 69 W-31 for Springfield, IL in 98 and NJ
>in 2000.  Both times the car was listed (in their records)
>as a 69 442.  yeah, whatever.  I lived with it.  I figured
>it was useless to try and convince the OLDSMOBILE club of
>america that this OLDSMOBILE was a W-31 and NOT a 442.

Yikes! That's not being anal; that's being accurate. You never know when you 
might need that supporting paperwork to document what your car is, and if a 
document from the OCA turns up later and says that you had a 442 instead of 
a W-31, it could lead to all kinds of awkward explaining (e.g. to insurance 
companies, disgruntled future buyers, etc.).

Remember that in a battle of your word vs. theirs, the OCA would obviously 
be recognized as the authority (wrongly so, in your case).

- -- Andy

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Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 12:26:20 -0400
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: balancer bolt torque

Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 20:37:40 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: balancer bolt torque, formerly Re: Day at the races pics/gregs NW. 
Tour

MS: The '65 shop manual shows only 50 fl for the 3/4" fine threaded bolt on 
both
330s and 425s. The '64 manual shows 100 fl minimum for a 394. 250 is way too
much.
===================
CW: 1965 425s, in my experience, use a puny girly 1/2" NF bolt. Obviously 
inadequate, for every year after that they used the 3/4" NF bolt. The specs 
on THAT vary, typically "160 min" to "250 min". Depends what what manual for 
what year you look at. I would say, the tighter the better. You absolutely 
MUST tie the balancer inner hub to the crank snout firmly. I have seen the 
result of running them loose- destroys the keyways, and can split the 
balancer inner hub. Furthermore, with it loose, you lose the ability of the 
damper to, well, damp out the vibrations that is was assigned to kill. THAT 
certainly cannot be good.



>After breaking the nub offn my 1/2" torque wrench, I splurged and bought a
>3/4"-drive socket and slider bar. But how the HECK can I hold the
>crankshaft from turning??
===================
CW:  For loosening, how about buying a real impact wrench? I got my Blue 
Point [Snap on maker] 1/2" brand new for under $100. WELL WORTH IT. So far 
it has failed to remove only one damper bolt. That's where your 3/4" socket 
set and turn the motor with the starter might work. Don't worry about 
starter removing teeth from the ring gear, the force is applied so far from 
the crank center that the effects out there are negligible. You broke your 
tork wrench because you were trying to loosend a 5/8" round solid steel part 
[3/4" minus some thread cuts] with a 1/2" square steel piece. Bigger man 
wins.
   PS the impact works great for tightening, getting PS pump nuts off, motor 
mounts, rods, rockers, suspension bolts, etc. etc. etc.


MS: It will take 2 people and buying (or borrowing) a flywheel turner. A
flywheel turner is like a huge set of pliers. It has a 90 degree tooth on
each end of the lever arms to grab 2 flywheel teeth about 120 degrees apart
from each other. Your helper will hold the flywheel while you take the
balancer bolt off. Your helper will have a great deal of leverage with the
flywheel turner. You should have no problem.
==============
CW: That works too. I have been known to use a 10WR Vice-Grips. Clamp on the 
flexplate so that the wire cutter parts just engage the teeth- sit between 
two teeth. Clamp firmly. Let it come to rest against the block or trans. 
Then apply tork at the balancer bolt. Has never failed yet, nor damaged any 
parts, and it's a 1-man job.


>Have the same problem breaking loose a pinion nut on a rear end that's not
>in the car now; I gess I may have to put the carrier back in to jam
>something into it to butt against the rear end housing  ;o(
++++++++++++++++
MS: Buy (or borrow) a spanner wrench for holding the u-joint yoke while you 
take
the pinion nut loose.
==================
CW: Yeah, special tool 1816-1, right? I made one of them a long time back, 
still comes in handy now and then. Know any high school kids? College folks? 
have them use the machine shop to make you one. Dirt simple. Of course, it 
you have a good quality Impact Wrench, that works too.


>The balancers slid right into place albeit perhaps with just a tiny bit of
>interference fit. Can't the Olds balancer bore be sanded just a bit to
make > them easier to remove??
++++++++++++++++++
MS: Of course. Most 330 balancers will slide off in my hand, even ones in a
salvage yard. Usually the only reason the balancer is tight is interference
drag from the square key. The balancer doesn't need to be that tight. It's
locked on with the 3/4" crank bolt, anyway. If you do any sanding, just be
sure it's uniform. Check the keyway for burrs on both the crank snout and
the inside of the balancer hub.
===================
CW: I find that they vary anywhere from "falls off of its own weight" to 
"damn near broke the puller", with no rhyme or reason. 80% of them I remove 
easily by prying with the giant 1" steel bar, tip on the balancer inner 
weight backside, fulcrum is one of the timing cover lower 4 bolt heads. When 
it gets out far enough, I get pry bar behind the seal shank area for the 
final pull. That usually works. Might have to modify the excact shape of 
your pry bar to best fit and grip the balancer inner hub. The pry bar must 
NEVER TOUCH the outer rubberized ring.
  Barring that, the std issue "bolt puller" is used, with a crank snout bolt 
[sans washer] in place to push against. That method has yet to fail, though 
it does sometimes bend a pair of bolts. Try to use Grade 8 Socket Head Cap 
Screws or Olds Rocker Bolts. Impact on the puller makes that a breeze too.


MS: The *maximum* amount of force that should be required to install a 
balancer
on a crank snout should be light tapping with a plastic or rubber mallet.
That's all. Obviously, there should not be any wobble between the crank
snout and the balancer hub. A light coating of oil will prevent drag and
binding.
Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com
====================
CSM recommends sealant on the blancer ID/ snout OD, to prevent possible 
leaks thru that void. I use a SMALL amount of say Permatex aviation 3H runny 
goo. Place it at the fwd joint of the snout and the lower timing sprocket 
then install the oil slinger, timing cover, balancer. If the balancer is 
just off, apply sealer to the bottom of the balancer where it meets the oil 
slinger.
  Did I mention that an Impact Wrench comes in VERY handy for this type of 
work?

Chris
517-449-0432

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Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 12:31:09 -0400
From: SteveH <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: RE: balancer bolt torque

At Tuesday, 28 September 2004, you wrote:

>When my 455 picked a time for me to rebuild it, the reason it 
>spun a bearing was because the oil pickup tube was clogged 
>with little bits of nylon.

Yeah, I'm strongly considering dropping the oil pan to clean it and 
the pump off. Would be an opportunity to renew the pan gasket, too.
And would make it a bit easier to get the timing cover back on with 
its new lip seals.

SteveH



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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 12:44:14 -0400
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: Specail Tool SP-001: HarBal and Diff Yoke

Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 22:24:55 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Balancer

>I gess I'll just break down and pick up a big piece of angle
>iron at Home Despot tomorrow  ;o( But the other end can be drilled to hold
>the pinion yoke  :o))))
+++++++++++++
MS: That'll work. Make a specialized tool for accomplishing 2 different 
tasks.
==============
One small problem with that is that the hole weakens the part, where you 
most need the strength. Plus, on the diff yoke, you need a large hole to 
access the large nut.
...Here's an idea....
Ever seen the adjustable spanner pin wrench?
How about -2- pcs of light angle about 1.5 to 2 ft long- discarded bed 
frames are cheap [free] and plentiful. Drill a 11/32 hole in each end, bolt 
one end of one to one end of the other. Loosely. Now you have an adjustable 
spanner wrench that will fit to ANY balancer or diff yoke. Sorta like a huge 
V, tied toghether just barely loosely at the bottom. Secure well to the 
balancer or yoke, let ir come to rest agains the ground or vehicle frame, 
and you are good to go.
.  \  /
.   \/
Plenty of room between the pcs at the wide end for your tool to access the 
nut, and the triangle construction makes best use of the material, should be 
indestructible as long as it rests against something fairly near the pointy 
end of the V.

I'll be glad to make one or three for anybody that cannot do so themselves. 
Figure $15 each, delivered in the US 48 states.

Chris
517-449-0432

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:48:12 -0700
From: "Schopen, Kenneth" <kenneth.schopen@medtronic.com>
Subject: Re: balancer bolt torque, formerly Re: Day at the races pics/gregs NW. Tour

> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:50:00 -0400
> From: SteveH <k0xp@dandy.net>
> Subject: Re: balancer bolt torque, formerly Re: Day at the 
> races pics/gregs NW. Tour
> 
> At Monday, 27 September 2004, you wrote:
> >Steve,
> >
> >I recommend you get a large breaker bar to use for 
> >REMOVING the bolts, and save your torque wrench for 
> >INSTALLING them upon re-assembly. Don't make me have 
> >to report you to the authorities for "tool abuse".
> 
> Well, heck's bells: how come torque wrenches have scales for both 
> CW and CCW direction, then, eh  ;o(((((((  I thot it was so afterward,
> you could check into yer fav automotive reflector and brag how much 
> it took to break something loose.
> 
> :o)
> 
> SteveH

Well, I can't argue with your logic on that point. I always figured the 
CCW scale was for some type of furrin fasteners that I don't have on my Olds, 
but now I know differently. 

I suppose I won't report you for tool abuse just yet, but don't let me find 
out you're using a screwdriver for something other than turning screws!

Kenneth
1971 Cutlass Supreme convertible
Phoenix, AZ

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 12:55:19 -0400
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: OCA judging process handled poorly

Chris,
      I was told right after the Nationals ended  that all of the judging
sheet information for each car was entered into a  computer, then the 
judging
sheets were destroyed.  Then the computer  crashed.  Then the ensuing 
problems?
Maybe this is the result of your  ongoing problem?  I also heard that they
actually wanted the participants  at the awards dinner to "buck up" because 
they
lost money on the deal.   Seems they paid for the celebrities' 
transportation
and hotel expenses.   Sounds like my ex-wife, or one of her relatives, was 
in
charge of the money and  the judging.
Steve D
====================
That would explain a lot, they are now trying to Cover Their Asses by simply 
pretending that they don't have to come up with any results in my case. I am 
not buying that. What kind of dumbass would pull a stunt like feeding the 
info into a computer and THEN DESTROYING the original paper copies??? Here's 
an excerpt of what I wrote them yesterday on that score:

"The car WAS JUDGED. I sat thru it, and took numerous photos. I expect the 
results to be provided to me, as was our initial agreement. There is no 
other acceptable way to begin to settle this dispute.
If the resulting score sheet was indeed “destroyed” as Mr. Blood asserted, 
then it is your responsibility to REPRODUCE THE RESULTS. I don’t care if you 
sit down as a group and make it up from memory, or come here and Judge the 
car again in person at your expense, but “Ooops, we destroyed the results” 
is not by any means an acceptable response. Especially since I gave warning 
after warning in the previous e-mails and phone calls that the problem was a 
simple name snafu, and should be easily fixed, and that I had proof of the 
car’s registration on the way.
This issue is NOT going to resolve that easily. Even if I initiated the 
snafu, you exacerbated it and failed to fix it as best you could. Now it’s 
up to you to make it right, by any means necessary."

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End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #5036
*********************************
