
oldsmobile-digest     Saturday, October 16 2004     Volume 01 : Number 5060



Re: Toro AL intakes in the works
RE:'54 Olds F-88 Concept Car
MSD headaches not MSD's fault - Milton right again
Toro AL intakes in the works
Re: MSD headaches not MSD's fault - Milton right again
Re: Conversion Utilities Web Page
Re: oldsmobile-digest V1 #5058
Re: which MSD distributor?
Camshaft numbers
Rear Disc Brakes
Re: Rear Disc Brakes
Need Opinion on repro inner fenders
70 F-85 passes IL emissions
Re: 70 F-85 passes IL emissions
Re: MSD headaches not MSD's fault - Milton right again
Re: Rear Disc Brakes
Re: Rear Disc Brakes
70 F-85 passes IL emissions
Re: Rear Disc Brakes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 17:17:07 -0700
From: "Schopen, Kenneth" <kenneth.schopen@medtronic.com>
Subject: Re: Toro AL intakes in the works

> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 17:45:09 -0400
> From: "ron fama" <77w30442@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: Toro AL intakes in the works
> 
> i believe thats why the torointake was actually lower in the 
> center than any other intake at least on bb olds powered toro's
> ron
>
> 
> > Correct me if I'm wrong guys... but as I recall I think 
> > that any other intake and especially high-rise intakes 
> > won't fit under the hood of a Toro.
> >
> > Later...
> > Clayton
> >
> >>
> >> I don't doubt that the Toro intake is better than the 
> >> regular factory intake, but I really don't see how even 
> >> a slightly modified one could be better than the Edelbrock
> >> Performer 455 intake, which is a high rise design (semi-high
> >> rise?) with much more plenum volume.
> >>
> >> Kenneth
> >> 1971 Cutlass Supreme convertible
> >> Phoenix, AZ

Yes, I agree with all the posts as to WHY the Toro intake is lower. My remark was in response to Chris's comments about the flow of the intakes, in the context of using a Toro-style aluminum intake on a G-Body 455 vs. using a Performer 455. I reference (once again) Chris's post:

> You might sell a LOT of these to the G-body crew if you flow 
> test and/or real world race test and show improvement over other similar 
> competitors such as the Performer intake.

Nothing I posted was meant to imply (and I didn't think it read that way) that a Performer 455 intake would be used on a Toronado engine in a Toronado engine bay.

Kenneth
1971 Cutlass Supreme convertible
Phoenix, AZ

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 18:36:25 -0700
From: Mark Mullins <mark@marineaviation.org>
Subject: RE:'54 Olds F-88 Concept Car

At 01:56 AM 10/15/2004 -0400, Randy wrote:
>http://www.gmphotostore.com/source/Detail.aspx?L1=GM%20Collections&L2=12115&imageId=1897592&action=&ss=


That '56 Golden Rocket also has features used in later Corvettes.. ('63 
split window coupe?)



Mark Mullins
Tucson, Az

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:50:57 -0500
From: bcroe@juno.com
Subject: MSD headaches not MSD's fault - Milton right again

Taking a decent connection and adding solder will NOT 
increase the resistance.  The electrons will take the path 
of least resistance, not the most resistance.  Actually some 
will split both ways, less crowding and less resistance.

Generally the resistance of a good connection is already 
so low as not to be a factor, but soldering properly done 
will only make it better.  Bruce Roe



15 Oct 2004  "Rick & Roxanne" <aremessenger@icehouse.net> writes:
> Isn't it also true that a soldered connection can actually 
> increase the resistance across the connection.Since 
> current flows around wire instead of
> through it. Does not soldering actually cut down current path.
> Rick Messenger

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:58:24 -0500
From: bcroe@juno.com
Subject: Toro AL intakes in the works

Aside from the intake, the lower half of some (if not 
all) early Toronado air cleaners sat lower on the Qjet
then standard.  I have used this lower half with a diesel 
upper half to fit a 4" high (diesel) air cleaner into cars 
without creating a headroom problem.  And yes, a 
K & N that size is available.

Bruce Roe

15 Oct 2004  "ron fama" <77w30442@comcast.net> writes:
> i believe that's why the toro intake was actually lower 
> in the center than any other intake, at least 
> on bb olds powered toro's
> ron

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 19:01:49 -0700
From: Mark Mullins <mark@marineaviation.org>
Subject: Re: MSD headaches not MSD's fault - Milton right again

At 10:37 PM 10/14/2004 -0700, Milton wrote:
>Those look like a neat deal. It looks like they can be permanent. I'd leave
>them on. They're self-insulated. If you solder, then you have to insulate
>with messy electrical tape. I wised up and stopped soldering decades ago. I
>use crimp on connectors for everything and have never had a failure. I've
>had soldered connectors fail from vibrational fatigue.


Personally, I prefer a crimped AND soldered connection, with heat 
shrink.  You're most likely to get fatigue (or brittleness) from applying 
too much heat and too much solder, as the solder will wick up the wire, 
making it rigid for a distance from your connecter.


Mark Mullins
Tucson, Az

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:19:40 -0700
From: "Rick & Roxanne" <aremessenger@icehouse.net>
Subject: Re: Conversion Utilities Web Page

Ken, I was unable to install the Materials compatibility chart. The other 2
downloaded and installed with no problem what so ever. Each time I tried ,
the computer came up with a different excuse; i.e. "incompatible file, file
contained errors" etc. so I gave up. What I did get looks to be useful.
Thanks!
Rick Messenger
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: <KS7RACING@aol.com>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 3:48 PM
Subject: Conversion Utilities Web Page


> Listmembers,
>
> A friend at work sent me the link to this page, and I thought some of the
> more technically-inclined could offer a critique of it for those of us
(including
> me) who can use all the help we can get:-)  It says it has all sorts of
> conversion utilities, and appears to be pretty thorough -- stop by and let
us know
> what you think:
>
> http://www.flw.com/datatools/
>
> Take Care,
> SrA Ken Snyder
> Kansas City, Kansas
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 22:45:24 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: oldsmobile-digest V1 #5058

Daniel,

See the 65-33427 in your body tag? The 65 is for 1965. 33427 is a V8 club
coupe. Specifically:
The first 3 = Oldsmobile
The second 3 = F-85
The 4 = even number is a V8 (V6 is odd number)
The 27 = body type, which is a club coupe
A club coupe is the lightest F-85 body and has post side windows and doors.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 00:14:52 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: which MSD distributor?

> Go with the vacuum advance unless this is a race car. The following
article
> is a good explanation of timing and mech. vs. vacuum advance and ported
vs.
> manifold vacuum.
> http://www.maliburacing.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2484
>
> Mick Gillespie


Fred has written a really good article detailing what vacuum advance and
mechanical advance does. I have saved that article to my engine files. But,
it doesn't quite cover every situation.

"Anyone driving a street-driven car without manifold-connected vacuum
advance is sacrificing idle cooling, throttle response, engine efficiency,
and fuel economy, probably because they don't understand what vacuum advance
is, how it works, and what it's for..."

and

"For peak engine performance, driveability, idle cooling and efficiency in a
street-driven car, you need vacuum advance, connected to full manifold
vacuum. Absolutely. Positively."

Then I going to ask only one question and I'll wait for an explanation:
Thunder's 468 has absolutely no cooling problems on the street at idle or
any other time, has instantaneous response which includes the ability to
take off from a dead stop in third gear (direct drive) with no bog and with
vigor (possible with her B&M full manual only TH400), and seems to be fairly
efficient on the street with no eye searing exhaust fumes.

There's 5 people on this list who have seen and heard her and 3 of them have
ridden in her. She does exist and she does work very well on the street.

Her ignition systems have been from 1971 to 1993 a Ronco Vertex magneto with
28 degrees @ 2500 rpm. In 1993, the mag was pulled and a MSD 7AL-2 ignition
unit with Blaster 2 coil was installed. An Olds point distributor was sent
to Stinger Electronic Ignitions and converted into an electronic trigger
unit with a total mechanical advance of 28° @ 4000 rpm. With 8° added to the
crank (set at 12° initial @ 1000 rpm), total timing is 36° @ 4000 rpm.

That's what I use in her with no problem.

Like I said before, our '65 F-85 stock 330 has a MSD 6A with an Accel
distributor with vacuum advance. That system also works fine.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 15:43:07 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9_Meijers?= <Andre_Meijers@wxs.nl>
Subject: Camshaft numbers

Just wondering if anyone has the numbers from a stock camshaft. This to use
them is the program "DesktopDyno"

The cam comes from a stock 455 (low compression) from 1974.

Thanks,

André     '74 Cutlass Salon

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 09:20:57 -0500
From: bcroe@juno.com
Subject: Rear Disc Brakes

15 Oct 2004  "Paul Tumolo" <ptumolo@comcast.net> writes:
> Thinking of converting to rear disc brakes.
> 
> Anyone have direct experience doing this?

On the 79-85 Toro/Riv/Eldo cars were built with either 
drum or disk rear brakes.  I have owned both.  For 
street use, the drums were perfectly OK.  The disks 
were a service headache, because of the emergency 
brake operation.  Also they were much more prone to 
lock up.  My 79 Eldo was so bad, it was not safe to 
drive in slippery weather.  I had to add a proportioning 
valve, which was adjusted nearly to the end of its 
range to get the car to stop straight.  I seriously 
considered converting it to rear drums, and still might.  

Bruce Roe

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 11:13:20 -0400
From: "Frederick Nissen" <fsnissen@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Rear Disc Brakes

> On the 79-85 Toro/Riv/Eldo cars were built with either
> drum or disk rear brakes.  I have owned both.  For
> street use, the drums were perfectly OK.  The disks
> were a service headache, because of the emergency
> brake operation.  Also they were much more prone to
> lock up.  My 79 Eldo was so bad, it was not safe to
> drive in slippery weather.  I had to add a proportioning
> valve, which was adjusted nearly to the end of its
> range to get the car to stop straight.  I seriously
> considered converting it to rear drums, and still might.

- --------------------------

I agree with Bruce.  The GM rear disc have a really lousy parking brake
design that causes lots of service headaches.  On the E cars, the Toro and
Riv had rear drums standard from, '79-'81.  The discs were optional.  From
'82-'85 the four wheel disc system was standard. Cadillac never offered the
disc / drum system on the Eldo or Seville.  They did get the proportioning
straightened out by '84.

Autospecialty / Kelsey-Hayes makes a nice remanufactured loaded caliper for
these.  If I were converting a RWD car to rear discs using salvage yard
parts from a RWD Cadillac or T/A, I'd at least spring for a good set of
rebuilt loaded calipers.

Milt, what kind of parking brake provision does the Hurst / Airheart system
use?

Regards,
Fred

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 09:09:07 -0700
From: "Jeff and Sherie Stanish" <stanishj@svpal.org>
Subject: Need Opinion on repro inner fenders

Has anyone out there bought any repro innner plastic black fenders??? or
know someone that did?

What was their experience?

Who did they buy it from??

Other stuff I should know??


Thanks

Jeff
1969 442

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 12:11:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: chris smetana <grp442@yahoo.com>
Subject: 70 F-85 passes IL emissions

Greetings all,
Well, after putting it off and putting it off.  And
also repairing the car from the cooling issues this
past June in which I replaced the radiator, radiator
hoses, heater hose to water pump, thermostat bypass
hose, converting the car to dual exhaust using a home
made block off cap and the old duals from my W-31 and
last but not least fixing the upper alt mounting bolt
after I, um, screwed it up, I finally took my F-85 to
get its emissions checked.  Honestly I was 50/50 on
whether it would pass.  For one thing the carb (2bbl)
is shot and it burns a little oil.  Of course it's
also leaking oil, tranny fluid and p/s fluid.  But
being that this car falls into the 68-pre81 era, it
didn't have to be put on the dyno.  They just tested
the gas cap, which I later found out after getting my
"PASS" paperwork the car was ineligible for.  Then
they took the probe and inserted it into the pass side
exhaust pipe and took measurements at idle.  I watched
them and saw the idle jumping from roughly 440rpm to
830rpm on their monitor screen.  They only checked HC
and CO.  The HC limit is 900, my car has 205.  The CO
limit is 9.0, my car has 5.6.  (this is all good to
know when I finally get my W-31 checked)  So I now
have an emissions legal car (that I'll probably park
for the winter) that I don't have to worry about
getting me in trouble.  It's my 89 5.0L Mustang I have
to worry about.  See, I had/have until 10/20 to get
both cars tested before my license gets suspended. 
(rant mode on) See, never mind my 99 GMC Sierra past
emissions with flying colors many months ago, they
just suspend your license not the plates.  So after I
get my mustang repaired and take it for its second
test, I may be driving to the facility on a suspended
license.  Never mind the fact of my daily commute to
work.  Or if for some reason I'm the designated driver
one night.  I get pulled over, I'm screwed because
they suspended my license.  NOT THE PLATES!!!!!  my
tax dollars at work I suppose.  Politcs and
commonsense, mutually exclusive terms. (rant mode off)

Chris Smetana
grp442@yahoo.com



		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:54:59 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: 70 F-85 passes IL emissions

> See, I had/have until 10/20 to get
> both cars tested before my license gets suspended.
> (rant mode on) See, never mind my 99 GMC Sierra past
> emissions with flying colors many months ago, they
> just suspend your license not the plates.  So after I
> get my mustang repaired and take it for its second
> test, I may be driving to the facility on a suspended
> license.  Never mind the fact of my daily commute to
> work.  Or if for some reason I'm the designated driver
> one night.  I get pulled over, I'm screwed because
> they suspended my license.  NOT THE PLATES!!!!!  my
> tax dollars at work I suppose.  Politcs and
> commonsense, mutually exclusive terms. (rant mode off)


No, it's the Illinois police state. Nothing's changed for the better over
there since I left Missoura 25 years ago. It just got worse. Power is
addictive.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 17:22:22 -0400
From: John Livingston <johnliving@cox.net>
Subject: Re: MSD headaches not MSD's fault - Milton right again

>At 10:37 PM 10/14/2004 -0700, Milton wrote:
>>Those look like a neat deal. It looks like they can be permanent. I'd leave
>>them on. They're self-insulated. If you solder, then you have to insulate
>>with messy electrical tape. I wised up and stopped soldering decades ago. I
>>use crimp on connectors for everything and have never had a failure. I've
>>had soldered connectors fail from vibrational fatigue.
>
>
>Personally, I prefer a crimped AND soldered connection, with heat 
>shrink.  You're most likely to get fatigue (or brittleness) from 
>applying too much heat and too much solder, as the solder will wick 
>up the wire, making it rigid for a distance from your connecter.
>

Actually, I have been crimping (with a nice, heavy, Klein crimper), 
soldering, and heat shrinking all the permanent connections. I broke 
down and bought a 200 watt Weller and now have no problems getting 
good heat on 8 gauge wire. But the Posilocks really do work well. 
I'll have to see if there's some way I can do a long-term resistance 
test on both types of connections.

John
68 442 convt.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 14:34:29 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Rear Disc Brakes

> If I were converting a RWD car to rear discs using salvage yard
> parts from a RWD Cadillac or T/A, I'd at least spring for a good set of
> rebuilt loaded calipers.


Even though it's less expensive, salvage yard rear discs may not be the best
way to go. Baer, Wildwood, etc. would be much better, even on the front.


> Milt, what kind of parking brake provision does the Hurst / Airheart
system
> use?


A small dual puck caliper that mounted on the rear caliper bracket and could
be hooked into the original cable, or rigged with another type of pull
actuator. Believe it or not,

Another way to rig a parking brake that is highly effective is to take a
page from big commercial truck operations. Many large trucks use an electric
solenoid valve on a brake line to lock the brakes when parked. It operates
the same way as a line lock. I've used them on Thunder in the past. However,
now I don't use an emergency brake. For redundancy, I rely on the dual
master cylinder and separated front and rear brake systems. I already know
either the fronts or the rears will stop her reliably in case of front or
rear brake failure. Also, her B&M full manual TH400 has full deceleration on
all gears, just like a manual transmission. I can pull her down to first
gear, and you have no idea how massive the deceleration is. Admittedly,
Thunder is a special case.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 14:47:26 -0700
From: "Rick & Roxanne" <aremessenger@icehouse.net>
Subject: Re: Rear Disc Brakes

Say Milt, do you have a picture of Thunder & a list of all the specialty
things you have done; for those of us (like me), who are still neophytes?
Rick Messenger
76 98 LS coupe
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: Rear Disc Brakes


> > If I were converting a RWD car to rear discs using salvage yard
> > parts from a RWD Cadillac or T/A, I'd at least spring for a good set of
> > rebuilt loaded calipers.
>
>
> Even though it's less expensive, salvage yard rear discs may not be the
best
> way to go. Baer, Wildwood, etc. would be much better, even on the front.
>
>
> > Milt, what kind of parking brake provision does the Hurst / Airheart
> system
> > use?
>
>
> A small dual puck caliper that mounted on the rear caliper bracket and
could
> be hooked into the original cable, or rigged with another type of pull
> actuator. Believe it or not,
>
> Another way to rig a parking brake that is highly effective is to take a
> page from big commercial truck operations. Many large trucks use an
electric
> solenoid valve on a brake line to lock the brakes when parked. It operates
> the same way as a line lock. I've used them on Thunder in the past.
However,
> now I don't use an emergency brake. For redundancy, I rely on the dual
> master cylinder and separated front and rear brake systems. I already know
> either the fronts or the rears will stop her reliably in case of front or
> rear brake failure. Also, her B&M full manual TH400 has full deceleration
on
> all gears, just like a manual transmission. I can pull her down to first
> gear, and you have no idea how massive the deceleration is. Admittedly,
> Thunder is a special case.
>
> Milton Schick
> 1964 442 Cutlass
> imp@theriver.com
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 18:23:42 -0500
From: bcroe@juno.com
Subject: 70 F-85 passes IL emissions

You must be close to Chicago.  Looks like the limits on 
your 70 are only 50% higher than my 79, which has the 
benefit of a cat converter and HEI.  My 79 Eldo (with an 
Olds 403) passes the carb type test by a huge margin, 
since its one of the few cars that year with EFI standard.  
SInce I moved to Byron area, should not have to take it 
for testing again.  Time to drop in that 76 Eldo engine 
(500 cu in).  Bruce Roe

16 Oct 2004 chris smetana <grp442@yahoo.com> writes:
>  I now have an emissions legal car (that I'll probably park
> for the winter) that I don't have to worry about
> getting me in trouble.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2004 22:28:08 -0400
From: "ron fama" <77w30442@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Rear Disc Brakes

if they don't leak and work  just fine why fix something that's not broken.
Ron
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: Rear Disc Brakes


>> If I were converting a RWD car to rear discs using salvage yard
>> parts from a RWD Cadillac or T/A, I'd at least spring for a good set of
>> rebuilt loaded calipers.
> 
> 
> Even though it's less expensive, salvage yard rear discs may not be the best
> way to go. Baer, Wildwood, etc. would be much better, even on the front.
> 
> 
>> Milt, what kind of parking brake provision does the Hurst / Airheart
> system
>> use?
> 
> 
> A small dual puck caliper that mounted on the rear caliper bracket and could
> be hooked into the original cable, or rigged with another type of pull
> actuator. Believe it or not,
> 
> Another way to rig a parking brake that is highly effective is to take a
> page from big commercial truck operations. Many large trucks use an electric
> solenoid valve on a brake line to lock the brakes when parked. It operates
> the same way as a line lock. I've used them on Thunder in the past. However,
> now I don't use an emergency brake. For redundancy, I rely on the dual
> master cylinder and separated front and rear brake systems. I already know
> either the fronts or the rears will stop her reliably in case of front or
> rear brake failure. Also, her B&M full manual TH400 has full deceleration on
> all gears, just like a manual transmission. I can pull her down to first
> gear, and you have no idea how massive the deceleration is. Admittedly,
> Thunder is a special case.
> 
> Milton Schick
> 1964 442 Cutlass
> imp@theriver.com
> 
> 
>

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #5060
*********************************
