
oldsmobile-digest       Sunday, October 3 2004       Volume 01 : Number 5044



Recommendation to clean rust out of the "inside" of a deck lid
Anticlimax
GM Oil Cooler Line Fittings?
Re: 1968  98 rea-POSI
Re: Anticlimax
Re: Anticlimax
Re: GM Oil Cooler Line Fittings?
Need parts
The General signing off
Re: Recommendation to clean rust out of the "inside" of a deck lid
Re: Sue the OCA? Anyone need 76 98 2-dr pcs?
1968  98 rear not good for A-body
Re: OCA replies at last?
Re: 67-70 Olds type O Rearend Facts (Long)
Re: OCA replies at last?
Re: GM Oil Cooler Line Fittings?
Re: 67-70 Olds type O Rearend Facts (Long)
1968  98 rear not good for A-body

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:45:51 -0400
From: Michael McDonald <McDonald_M@72ho.com>
Subject: Recommendation to clean rust out of the "inside" of a deck lid

Looking for advice. I have a 1968 Cutlass rear deck lid that 
is in fair shape.  The exterior has some surface rust, but I 
believe it can be cleaned up.  However, rust and dirt keep 
pouring out from the "inside" (between the outer and inner 
skin) of the deck lid.  What liquid can I use to clean and 
stop the rust on the "inside" of this panel.  

Thanks for your help, 
Mike McDonald
McDonald_M@72ho.com

1972 Hurst/Olds sunroof coupe
    "as seen on Speed TV"
   The American Musclecar    
            or
        www.72ho.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 15:41:58 -0700
From: Mark Mullins <mark@marineaviation.org>
Subject: Anticlimax

Nothing like a day at the car show to make me anxious to get back to work 
on the 442.  Browsing the evil site, found several sets of "Hi-performance" 
valve covers, but alas, they only have them for the 350 and 455.  Oh well, 
perhaps the Pennzoil sticker I picked up at the show will make up for the 
lack of performance in my plain chrome valve covers.

Mark Mullins
Tucson, Az

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2004 23:53:38 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: GM Oil Cooler Line Fittings?

I think I asked this question earlier but the only answer I got was to
check the Swagelok and another site (I ferget who). I've got a cupla oil
coolers from '90s Ch*bby cop cars (9C1) and have been trying to figger out
what the fittings actually are. I took the lines to Home Despot and tried
to match them with brass fittings but nothing fit; they may be metric, not
sure.

ANYBODY have any idea what the fittings are?? They're around 5/8" diameter
and the tubing is about 7/16" or maybe 3/8" ID. Anybody have a Parts and
Illustration Catalog for the early '90s B-bodies?

Thanks,
SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 18:28:37 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: 1968  98 rea-POSI

> While we are on this subject, what will fit in a 1970
> 442? Everyone that has one seems to wnat too much$$. I
> thought us OLD collectors stuck together. My 3:42 open
> just does not have enough GRIP for my beast. Can
> anyone assist?


A complete Chevy 12 bolt rear axle housing from a '68-'70 Chevelle will bolt
right in to your '70 442. For a '64-'65 Olds A-body, the Chevelle 12 bolt
bolts in, but is a little too wide. It needs to be shortened on each side,
or use custom wheels with the correct offset.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 18:52:22 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: Anticlimax

Mark,

> Browsing the evil site, found several sets of "Hi-performance"
> valve covers, but alas, they only have them for the 350 and 455.


????? You mean the valve covers are marked 350 or 455? Otherwise, they're
all the same. I don't understand what you're driving at, or am I being way
too literal again and missed the joke?

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 02:14:33 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: Anticlimax

At 06:52 PM 10/2/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>Mark,
>
>> Browsing the evil site, found several sets of "Hi-performance"
>> valve covers, but alas, they only have them for the 350 and 455.
>
>
>????? You mean the valve covers are marked 350 or 455? Otherwise, they're
>all the same. I don't understand what you're driving at, or am I being way
>too literal again and missed the joke?

Yes; the joke is the aftermarket suppliers do not understand Oldsmobile
whatsoever and somehow think there's some difference between the 350/455
and all other Olds engines/heads. And what few "think" they do understand
Olds, seem to follow the Moneydullah Doctrine of offset-engine Cutlii, oil
restrictors, etc.

You can see a good manifestation of this misunderstanding by looking at the
various listings for timing chains and gears; almost all of them stop at
1983, even though the same parts are used on the '85+ roller-cammed engines.

As an aside: it *could* be that some of those valve cover manufacturers
HAVE had problems with their covers fitting underneath AC boxes and/or
power brake boosters, and came to their "application" conclusions based on
what a few customers complained about. There would be many reasons for such
problems, ranging from inproper engine mount use by the customers (causing
engines to sit incorrectly-high off the frame) to belief in that
"offset-engine" Cutlass Supreme  ;o\ Heck: all you have to do is have a bad
tranny mount and that, alone, could cause the engine location/attitude to
shift sufficiently to cause tall valve cover interference. You could even
have a rotted or bent frame, causing the tranny crossmember to sit
incorrectly and thus shifting the engine location.

SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 01:10:23 -0400
From: "ron fama" <77w30442@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: GM Oil Cooler Line Fittings?

go to local dealer they will let you thumb threw the book. i will check my 94 cms tommorrow and see 
if anything useful is in it as to thread  size.
ron
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Harrison" <k0xp@dandy.net>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 7:53 PM
Subject: GM Oil Cooler Line Fittings?


>I think I asked this question earlier but the only answer I got was to
> check the Swagelok and another site (I ferget who). I've got a cupla oil
> coolers from '90s Ch*bby cop cars (9C1) and have been trying to figger out
> what the fittings actually are. I took the lines to Home Despot and tried
> to match them with brass fittings but nothing fit; they may be metric, not
> sure.
>
> ANYBODY have any idea what the fittings are?? They're around 5/8" diameter
> and the tubing is about 7/16" or maybe 3/8" ID. Anybody have a Parts and
> Illustration Catalog for the early '90s B-bodies?
>
> Thanks,
> SteveH
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 7:54:52 -0400
From: <old442@adelphia.net>
Subject: Need parts

Looking for a few odds and ends for a '71 Cutlass:
Heater control knob
Underhood light
Rearview mirror with light (must have excellent mirror)

***Also, looking for exhaust trumpets to fit a 2 1/2" exhaust system.***

Please respond directly if you have parts.

Thanks.
Kurt Heinrich
OCA# 30442
71 Cutlass Supreme SX Convertible
mailto:old442@adelphia.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 08:50:10 -0400
From: "The General" <patton442@verizon.net>
Subject: The General signing off

Hey list,

        All good things must come to an end ........
It has been an honor and a privilege to chat with
you wonderful guys over the years. Things have 
changed in my life. Some of you know the details.
Some know more than others. The end result is
that cars and parts will be part off my past. If they will
be in the future, one never knows. But I hope to God
that they will. I still have some parts left over.

455s - TH400 and TH300 - conoles and shifters.
I am in Philadelphia, PA.

        I will be unsubscribing just after this is sent, so
please reply to me privately.


The General       patton442@verizon.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 10:00:48 -0400
From: "Dave Cullen" <david.cullen@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Recommendation to clean rust out of the "inside" of a deck lid

> However, rust and dirt keep
> pouring out from the "inside" (between the outer and inner
> skin) of the deck lid.  What liquid can I use to clean and
> stop the rust on the "inside" of this panel.

Both POR-15 and ZeroRust make rust "converter" chemicals that will help with
that. Wash it out as best you can with POR's Marine Clean solution (mixed
with hot water, with a garden sprayer). Then treat it with a converter. If
you can get to an opening with a foam brush on a long stick or stiff wire
you might be able to paint it afterward with one of their rust paints.

drc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 10:02:35 -0400
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Sue the OCA? Anyone need 76 98 2-dr pcs?

- - -------------------------------1096642131
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I have an idea,

Let's just all be done with Oldsmobile,  donate all of our cars and  parts 
to
a certain not for profit organization,  and buy Mustangs  instead!!!
====================
Almost....
Was talking to a friend last night
He says the Stock Drags is about the same cost and WAY more fun.

Then again, steel is UP right now, and I could use the cash
to hell with all them folks that need rare parts.

Right after I get that 1976 98 home that I just bought
Started it up yesterday, it runs great. Kinda loud, kinda rusty. Great parts 
car.
It's a 2-door.
Rear rubbery fillers from fender to bumper spoken for, and engine/trans is 
sold.
Has cruise, PW, big diff, brakes, glass, PSeat that still works, etc.

Just one more
then I'll quit
fer sure.

Chris
517-449-0432

_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 10:17:35 -0400
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: 1968  98 rear not good for A-body

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 04:41:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Doyle Kerry Doyle <roseellen99@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: 1968  98 rea

- - --0-1083692727-1096717314=:76768
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hello Chris
Saw the mention of the Posi.  Wondering if that will fit in my 68 442 12 
bolt
rear?
Kerry
============
Not unless your 442's diff can accept a 9+3/8 ring gear!
[most unlikely]

One could I suppose swap the entire assembly, with a torch and welder and 
re-doing the brakes and wheel bolt pattern to match the A-body wheels...

By that time you mitaswell spend "too much money" on  a real A-body 12 bolt.

I just had a call last week, got all excited, 3.90 posi from 1968 Cutlass 
for $200
I'll take it.
Call comes later
"My friends say I'd be nuts to do that, it's $300"
OK, lemme see it
Count turns
just over 2.5
?????
Look at ring gear "16M41..."
Lessee
41/16 = uhm, 16x3=48, nope, not that high, so, 16x2= 32, ok ==> 2.xx ratio
as for the xx...

well, you know what's coming by now anyhow.
remainder is 41-32= 9, and 9 out of 16 is 9/16 = 0.5625
So the ratio is not 3.90 but 2.5625 or what we usually call 2.56.

Most economical
LONG ways from the fun of a 3.90
Glad I didn't have to buy it.

Chris
If I had a performace 12-bolt, I'd want big $ for it too. I have performance 
10-bolt, and non-performance 12-bolt, and lots of non-posi units... but the 
only great one is in my car.

_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 11:33:26 -0400
From: "Chris Carson" <fastcarson@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: OCA replies at last?

> Chris, don't play their game........., answer the letter. If you wait,
just
> to get even , then reply much later; you won't have a prayer in court.
Don't dismiss this court case as an immediate loss. As a law student, I can
offer my slightly-informed 2 cents on contractual law. There are four basic
parts to a legal and binding contract:
1. Mutual assent
2. Consideration
3. Legality
4. Capacity.
Assuming that the other three have been met, the real issue at hand is
consideration. This is the concept that keeps a contract from being skewed
to one party's advantage. In return for payment, the other party must render
some sort of service, good or benefit.
This is what is called a unilateral contract, what most contracts involving
an organization and an individual: one party makes a promise in an exchange
for an action. The second party accepts the contract by doing the action.
Now, applying it to Mr. Witt's case, assuming he paid the correct
registration fee, and received a confirmation letter. Mr. Witt accepted the
contract by sending the money. It's only icing on the cake that the OCA sent
him confirmation that the money was received - this proves beyond a doubt
that the OCA knowingly entered into a contract with Mr. Witt. The OCA is
then contractually bound to carry out its promise with Mr. Witt. Thus, we
have mutual assent.
The legality and capacity issues are obvious here; the OCA had the capacity
to judge the car and there isn't anything illegal about any process. Thus,
we are brought to consideration.
Very simple here: by paying the OCA to enter into the judged show, he
expects the OCA to render him the service of a proper and fair judgment. As
soon as the OCA received Mr. Witt's money (and thus sent a confirmation
letter) they are entered into a binding contract with Mr. Witt that the car
will be judged FAIRLY AND PROPERLY. The OCA clearly failed to do so;
therefore, the contract was breached.
Chris has the law on his side here, as painful it is to the indolent people
who don't like it when people take any kind of action against an
organization.
Chris Carson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 11:52:50 EDT
From: NUOLDSMAN@aol.com
Subject: Re: 67-70 Olds type O Rearend Facts (Long)

In a message dated 10/2/04 10:31:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time,  
srprojmgr4u@yahoo.com writes:
While we are on this subject, what will fit in  a 1970
442? Everyone that has one seems to wnat too much$$. I
thought us  OLD collectors stuck together. My 3:42 open
just does not have enough GRIP  for my beast. Can
anyone assist?
 
also,
In a message dated 10/2/04 10:31:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
_roseellen99@sbcglobal.net_ (mailto:roseellen99@sbcglobal.net)    writes:
> Hello Chris
> Saw the mention of the Posi.  Wondering if  that will
> fit in my 68 442 12 bolt rear?
> Kerry
Kerry, Rodney, Listers,
        The Olds 12 bolt O type  rearend (12 bolt cover, 10 bolt ring gear) 
is probably the least understood  and most maligned component on the cars of 
that era.  Only available from  1967 until 1970, so there isn't a surplus of 
surviving cars, or rearends, to  salvage parts from.  Also adding to the 
confusion is the fact that there  are four different posi carriers to choose from, and 
one of those isn't  used for the most desirable gear ratios, which are from 
3.23 and up.  To  further complicate things, different splined axles also come 
into play.   Oldsmobile engineers added heavy duty axles to late model year 67 
and 68 O  type rearends with the OAI option, and the number of splines that 
meshed  with the posi carrier was increased to 31, instead of the usual 28.
        The following list was provided  to me by Brian Trick from Erie, PA 
and from Kenneth Schoepen from our  List.  It shows the various posi carriers' 
casting numbers as well as the  axle splines used for each:
 
#673 = 2:56 & 2:78 ratios, 28 spline 
#671 = 3:08 & 3:23 ratios,  28 spline 
#588 = 3:42 & anything numerically higher, 28 spline 
 
And the oddball: 
#672 = 3:42 & anything numerically higher, 31  spline 
***The 31 spline axles were offered in late 67-68 OAI cars only.  

As you can see, the 673 carrier is for  the least sought after gear ratios.  
A lot of cars DID have these gearsets  in them however, and were the Turnpike 
Cruiser optioned cars.  I saw a post  on realoldspower.com just a week or so 
ago where Mr. Trick is exploring the  viability of producing spacer rings for 
the O type rearend to allow a person to  install a steeper gear in his 
previously highway geared car, using the same 2  series carrier.  This is not 
recommended for cars that will see extreme  driving conditions (drag racing) on a 
daily basis.  If you are interested  in buying one of these spacers, you can 
contact Brian at _bltrick@aol.com_ (mailto:bltrick@aol.com) .  Don't know if he has 
 actually started producing these, or if he will.  There needs to be a  
demand for them first.  
        To answer Rodney's question: You  first have to know how many splines 
are on your axles.  If you have a late  model OAI car, or if your rearend 
came from one, you will need a 672 carrier for  the 31 spline axles.  If your 
axles only have 28 splines, then you need the  588 carrier.  Both are hard to 
find and pricey.  Remember the theory  from Economics 101-Supply and Demand?  
That is why you can't find any deals  on these parts.  Reread first paragraph of 
this post.
        To answer Kerry's question: You  need to determine what ratio and 
spline axles are in your rearend.  You  should probably make sure that the 
rearend in your car is the correct 12 bolt  Olds O type rearend, and not a 12 bolt 
Chevy.  Does it have bolt in  axles?  That is the tell-all right there, as 
Chevy 12 bolts used C clip  axle retainers instead of bolted in axles.  There are 
other differences as  well, but the bolt in axles are easy to spot.
        I just got a new Oldsmobile  Parts Catalog that covers these rearends 
and I am going to try and find out what  will interchange (if anything) 
between the F 85 and the 88's and 98's.  If  I come up with anything, I will post 
my findings later on the List.  Hope  this clears up some of the confusion 
surrounding the O type rearend.
Steve D

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 09:00:20 -0700
From: "Rick & Roxanne" <aremessenger@icehouse.net>
Subject: Re: OCA replies at last?

I understand what you are saying, still to me , court should be the last
option. I have witnessed many times when a judgement is rendered , that the
winner, doesn't always win........., much for the effort. I would answer the
letter, and try to settle the matter out of court.

Rick Messenger
76 98 LS coupe
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris Carson" <fastcarson@prodigy.net>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: OCA replies at last?


>
>
> > Chris, don't play their game........., answer the letter. If you wait,
> just
> > to get even , then reply much later; you won't have a prayer in court.
> Don't dismiss this court case as an immediate loss. As a law student, I
can
> offer my slightly-informed 2 cents on contractual law. There are four
basic
> parts to a legal and binding contract:
> 1. Mutual assent
> 2. Consideration
> 3. Legality
> 4. Capacity.
> Assuming that the other three have been met, the real issue at hand is
> consideration. This is the concept that keeps a contract from being skewed
> to one party's advantage. In return for payment, the other party must
render
> some sort of service, good or benefit.
> This is what is called a unilateral contract, what most contracts
involving
> an organization and an individual: one party makes a promise in an
exchange
> for an action. The second party accepts the contract by doing the action.
> Now, applying it to Mr. Witt's case, assuming he paid the correct
> registration fee, and received a confirmation letter. Mr. Witt accepted
the
> contract by sending the money. It's only icing on the cake that the OCA
sent
> him confirmation that the money was received - this proves beyond a doubt
> that the OCA knowingly entered into a contract with Mr. Witt. The OCA is
> then contractually bound to carry out its promise with Mr. Witt. Thus, we
> have mutual assent.
> The legality and capacity issues are obvious here; the OCA had the
capacity
> to judge the car and there isn't anything illegal about any process. Thus,
> we are brought to consideration.
> Very simple here: by paying the OCA to enter into the judged show, he
> expects the OCA to render him the service of a proper and fair judgment.
As
> soon as the OCA received Mr. Witt's money (and thus sent a confirmation
> letter) they are entered into a binding contract with Mr. Witt that the
car
> will be judged FAIRLY AND PROPERLY. The OCA clearly failed to do so;
> therefore, the contract was breached.
> Chris has the law on his side here, as painful it is to the indolent
people
> who don't like it when people take any kind of action against an
> organization.
> Chris Carson
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2004 16:00:04 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: GM Oil Cooler Line Fittings?

At 01:10 AM 10/3/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>go to local dealer they will let you thumb threw the book.

Mine doesn't. They won't even let me come behind the counter to look at the
computer display  ;o\  I must look real shifty or sumpin, I figger  ;o(((((

>i will check my 94 cms tommorrow and see if anything useful is in 
>it as to thread  size.

Thanks, Ron, that's what I was hoping someone could do. I'll go get pix of
these now so maybe will jog someone else's memory.

At worst, I'm thinking I'll braze or solder something into cutoff pieces of
the original lines so can at least connect them with short pieces of hose,
as I'm doing right now. But really wanted to make it all-steel lines
connection.

SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 09:38:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Doyle Kerry Doyle <roseellen99@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: 67-70 Olds type O Rearend Facts (Long)

- --0-1650481045-1096821481=:37941
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Thanks for the info Steve D.  Pulled the cover and found a "C" clip with 12 bolt ring marked 3862691 14 43. not a posi.  I'm geussing 3=Olds,8.62 Dia, 69Year, 1=Canada,  43/14= 3.08ratio?????
Kerry



- --0-1650481045-1096821481=:37941
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<DIV>Thanks for the info Steve D.&nbsp; Pulled the cover and found a "C" clip with 12 bolt ring marked 3862691 14 43. not a posi.&nbsp; I'm geussing 3=Olds,8.62 Dia, 69Year, 1=Canada,&nbsp; 43/14= 3.08ratio?????</DIV>
<DIV>Kerry<BR><BR></DIV>
- --0-1650481045-1096821481=:37941--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 12:57:42 -0500
From: bcroe@juno.com
Subject: 1968  98 rear not good for A-body

3 Oct 2004  "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com> writes:

> So the ratio is not 3.90 but 2.5625 or what we usually call 2.56.

> Most economical
> LONG ways from the fun of a 3.90

Its amazing anyone would make a claim like that.

Its not as economical as the 2.41 I use everywhere.  
I get the performance back with a switch pitch trans.  

Bruce Roe

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #5044
*********************************
