
oldsmobile-digest      Monday, October 11 2004      Volume 01 : Number 5053



Re: OCA volunteers
Re: Converting to A/C
End of an Era: The defogger kits must go...
Re: Non Olds Humor
Convertible Top Woes
Re: End of an Era: The defogger kits must go...
Re: Convertible Top Woes
Be Cool Radiator
Re: Non Olds Humor
Re: TH 350 behind a 455
more MSD headaches
Re: TH 350 behind a 455
Re: more MSD headaches
Re: more MSD headaches
Re: Converting to A/C
Re: Re:
Re: Non Olds Humor
Re: Re:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:09:40 +0000
From: 62oldsfan@comcast.net
Subject: Re: OCA volunteers

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> Most of the cars were spectacular, a few others well..... there 
> always needs to be something to compare the good cars to.

That's an interesting statement, because I always thought that the car was supposed to judged against the judging sheet, not compared to other cars in the class.

 Paul
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<html><body>
<DIV>&gt; Most of the cars were spectacular, a few others well..... there <BR>&gt; always needs to be something to compare the good cars to.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>That's an interesting statement, because I always thought that the car was supposed to judged against the judging sheet, not compared to other cars in the class.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;Paul</DIV></body></html>

- --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_19106_1097507380_0--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:11:25 +0000
From: 62oldsfan@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Converting to A/C

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> I'm also aware that the hole in the firewall will need to be partially 
> welded up? 

Isn't there a vendor that deals in firewall plates?  They have plates to convert from heat to a/c, a/c to heat, or eliminate all of it.  Can't remember who they are.

Paul
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<html><body>
<DIV>&gt; I'm also aware that the hole in the firewall will need to be partially <BR>&gt; welded up? </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Isn't there a vendor that deals in firewall plates?&nbsp; They have plates to convert from heat to a/c, a/c to heat, or eliminate all of it.&nbsp; Can't remember who they are.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Paul</DIV></body></html>

- --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_60_1097507485_0--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:03:22 +0000
From: "Andrew C. Green" <acg_o@hotmail.com>
Subject: End of an Era: The defogger kits must go...

Longtime Olds list readers might remember the Defogger Wars, which broke out 
as a dispute between me and Mike Frederick over... Um... Well, like all good 
wars, it went on long after the participants had forgotten what they were 
fighting about. I think it had something to do with whether you should or 
should not use liquid soap to get your window tint to stick without bubbles, 
and whether this was a good thing to stick on top of grid-type defoggers, 
and yours truly was supposed to be an expert on defoggers... Oh, yeah, I 
should probably mention that this wasn't a real flamewar but more of a 
running nudge-nudge-wink-wink argument, like Jack Benny vs. Fred Allen...

(pause)

Okay, see, Jack Benny was a radio comedian, and he cooked up this "feud" 
with another comedian named Fred Allen, and...

(pause)

Okay, never mind all that. The bottom line is that through a weird chain of 
events about 15-16 years ago, I inherited some fan-forced rear-window 
defogger kits (i.e. not the grid-on-glass design, but the blower fan and 
grille installed in the rear shelf). These were New Old Stock GM 
dealer-installation kits, most of which were for installing the defogger in 
a 1975 or '76 Olds 88, 98 or Toronado. I knew they were worth keeping but 
wasn't sure how to find a good home for them, and the eVil site hadn't been 
invented yet, so they went into dry storage for a decade or so, and I 
finally decided to dig 'em out and find a good home for each.

Once I sat down and worked through each box one at a time, it turned out 
that each one had issues of some sort: missing instructions in one, missing 
hardware kit in another, water stains in a third (hmmm, better bench-test 
that one pretty thoroughly...), etc. But the first one is up for bids now, 
Item #2493898755; I think this link oughtta work:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2493898755

The thing I found interesting about these was the incredible effort the 
factory puts into documenting every little detail of how to install it. 
Check out the artwork on the installation sheets, which I scanned as hi-res 
TIFFs so they'll download nicely. Notice how every clamp and wire is 
itemized, labeled and such, even though their intended audience was likely 
to just be a dealer mechanic who knew it all already, and in a couple of 
cases, the stationery itself hadn't been updated for over a decade (e.g. 
check out the dashboard instructions: they were approved in January, 1975, 
but the address at the top still reads the old-style "General Motors 
Corporation, Lansing 21, Michigan," even though ZIP codes had been around 
since about 1963).

Nowadays they can bang out any documentation they want from a computer, but 
back then it was manual typesetting, pasteup, Rapidograph pens and camera 
art. I feel old(ish) just looking at it.  :-)

- -- Andy

_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! 
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 09:09:31 -0700
From: "Schopen, Kenneth" <kenneth.schopen@medtronic.com>
Subject: Re: Non Olds Humor

> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:17:02 -0400
> From: <1979hurstolds@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: Non Olds Humor
> 
> Regardless of what I would make of it its still a Cadillac 
> and will probably therefore be lucky to make it much over a100k miles... I 
> swore years ago I'd never own another Cadillac (unless it was a '59 and then I'd 
> use Olds engine & tranny) after the POS 72 or 3 I had and then the POS 69 
> friend had.  In fact most of the people I've known who've had Caddi's have 
> had some serious difficulties ESPECIALLY with electronics (wonder how this 
> thing will fare).
> My opinion on Caddi's in general - OVER-engineered and UNDER-built!
> 
> Sorry for the obviously heavily biased post but... my 
> experience!  If you want a luxury car... get an fullsize Olds... if you want a 
> NEW luxury car... get a Mercedes or a Lexus... if that's too expensive for you 
> Lincoln is still around (but you'd be happier with a low mileage 
> full-sized Olds).
> 
> Later Gang...
> Clayton Pierce

Interesting. I recently attended a seminar on Product Reliability taught by a fella with 30+ years in industry. He got off on a tangent about automobiles, his take was that the Japanese had been surpassed by Cadillac in reliability (the rest of GM's lineup didn't rate as highly). Also, he did not have a favorable opinion of the German auto manufacturers - apparently they have not progressed as much as the rest of the industry in reliability testing.

Kenneth
1971 Cutlass Supreme convertible
Phoenix, AZ

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 09:24:10 -0700
From: "Schopen, Kenneth" <kenneth.schopen@medtronic.com>
Subject: Convertible Top Woes

So it finally cooled off enough out for me to get back to working on the convertible top. I have now determined that the top I bought from Year One (made by Kee Manufacturing) is cut differently than the top I installed years ago (manufactured by Crown) and WILL NOT fit properly. The sail panel area is 2" wider than the original, and multiple attempts at readjusting it have not been successful in removing the huge wrinkles caused by the extra material.

Has anyone recently installed a Kee top from Year One, and if so were there any problems with it?

The only way I know to resolve this problem is to purchase another top from a different manufacturer. I am hoping to locate a vendor who sells Crown tops, but if anyone has recently installed a top from another manufacturer that fit well, I will consider using that manufacturer.

So let me hear from the convertible owners out there.

Kenneth
1971 Cutlass Supreme convertible
Phoenix, AZ

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 12:26:12 -0400
From: SteveH <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: End of an Era: The defogger kits must go...

At Monday, 11 October 2004, you wrote:
>Nowadays they can bang out any documentation they want 
>from a computer, but back then it was manual typesetting, 
>pasteup, Rapidograph pens and camera art. I feel old(ish) 
>just looking at it.  :-)

Leroy sets..... rember them? Think they predated even Rapidograph 
;o)  My dad still had his last year before he moved. Rember having 
to clean out the pen tips and getting indelible India Ink all over 
the kitchen sink and countertop??  XoP

Steve "incredibly dated; and unfortunately, I don't mean with the 
opposite sex" H



===================================================================
EASY access to your email http://webmail.dandy.net/mr2/nph-mr.cgi
===================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:08:04 -0400
From: "RobV" <rv@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Convertible Top Woes

The top I bought was from Kee (Key?) Manufacturing, which I got on EBay for
$115, and then I had it installed by a local shop.  I thought it came out
pretty good:
http://maytag87.dyndns.org:8081/rob/68442/

So it can be done.  I am unsure how they did it though.  Hopefully others
will respond with suggestions.

Rob
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Schopen, Kenneth" <kenneth.schopen@medtronic.com>
Subject: Convertible Top Woes

> Has anyone recently installed a Kee top from Year One, and if so were
there any problems with it?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:33:02 EDT
From: JonKrisInc@aol.com
Subject: Be Cool Radiator

- -------------------------------1097526781
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Just installed a Be Cool aluminum radiator and Trans cooler in the Cutlass.  
I have the Ralley Pack gauges. The original rad was leaking and at 4000rpms, 
the  needle was creeping above the 3/4 line mark. Now I can drive the highway 
at  80mph all day and the needle barely approaches rises above the 1/4 line  
mark. I had to trim the edges of the radiator cover plate with a sawzall because 
 the aluminum rad is wider, and drill two new holes about 1 1/2" closer to 
the  engine in order to secure the fan shroud. I used the original rubber 
supports  under the radiator and in between the radiator and cover plate. Aside from 
those  minor moods it was relatively a bolt in situation, though pretty 
pricey. The rad  + trains cooler was $635, but shipping was free and the choice of 
an octagonal  or round rad cap was included at no charge from Summit Racing. I 
kept the  original GM Fan with Clutch and shroud. Drove to the Hershey Car 
Show Saturday  (a 2 hour ride) and was passing everything in sight. Very pleased 
with the  results.
 
Bruce
75  Delta 88 Conv. (duals, of course)
72 Cutlass Conv.
56 190 SL Conv.
92  Eldo

- -------------------------------1097526781
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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
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e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>Just installed a Be Cool aluminum radiator and Trans cooler in the Cutl=
ass.=20
I have the Ralley Pack gauges. The original rad was leaking and at 4000rpms,=
 the=20
needle was creeping above the 3/4 line mark. Now I can drive the highway at=20
80mph all day and the needle&nbsp;barely approaches rises above the 1/4 line=
=20
mark. I had to trim the edges of the radiator cover plate with a sawzall bec=
ause=20
the aluminum rad is wider, and drill two new holes about 1 1/2" closer to th=
e=20
engine in order to secure the fan shroud. I used the original rubber support=
s=20
under the radiator and in between the radiator and cover plate. Aside from t=
hose=20
minor moods it was relatively a bolt in situation, though pretty pricey. The=
 rad=20
+ trains cooler was $635, but shipping was free and the choice of an octagon=
al=20
or round rad cap was included at no charge from Summit Racing. I kept the=20
original GM Fan with Clutch and shroud. Drove to the Hershey Car Show Saturd=
ay=20
(a 2 hour ride) and was passing everything in sight. Very pleased with the=20
results.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" PTSIZE=3D"10"=
>Bruce<BR>75=20
Delta 88 Conv. (duals, of course)<BR>72 Cutlass Conv.<BR>56 190 SL Conv.<BR>=
92=20
Eldo</FONT></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

- -------------------------------1097526781--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:51:50 EDT
From: JonKrisInc@aol.com
Subject: Re: Non Olds Humor

- -------------------------------1097527910
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In a message dated 10/11/2004 12:13:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
kenneth.schopen@medtronic.com writes:

his take  was that the Japanese had been surpassed by Cadillac in reliability 


Aside from Oldses, (my first love, having started with my Grandfathers 50  
futuramic, to my dad's 54 Holiday and 62 Dynamic 88, to my 75 Delta and 72  
Cutlass) my second love have been Caddys. I bought the first 81  Eldorado off the 
showroom floor at Potamkin in NYC which had the 8-6-4. Mine may  have been the 
only one that worked, and I never had a problem with it. 
In July, I bought my wife the 04 Caddy SRX, with all the bells and  whistles. 
Navigation system, voice controlled. (say "go Home" and it will plot  your 
course) and just ordered the 05 STS with the latest heads up display,  automatic 
cruise control (set the speed, if some cuts in front of you, the car  slows 
down to a safe distance) and all wheel drive.
I know some of you guys disagree, but to my way of thinking GM still makes  
the best cars in the world. Cadillac is known for their recent advances in  
electronics, magnetic ride control, and the 4.6 litreV-8 320 HP will do 0-60 in  
5.8 seconds and 60-0 in 4.2 seconds. That's Cadillac engineering. That's  
American engineering.
 
 
Bruce
75  Delta 88 Conv. (duals, of course)
72 Cutlass Conv.
56 190 SL Conv.
92  Eldo

- -------------------------------1097527910
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1458" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 10/11/2004 12:13:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,=20
kenneth.schopen@medtronic.com writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><=
FONT=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=
=3D2>his take=20
  was that the Japanese had been surpassed by Cadillac in reliability=20
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Aside from Oldses, (my first love, having started with my Grandfathers=20=
50=20
futuramic, to my dad's 54 Holiday and 62 Dynamic 88, to my 75 Delta and 72=20
Cutlass) my second love&nbsp;have been&nbsp;Caddys. I bought the first 81=20
Eldorado off the showroom floor at Potamkin in NYC which had the 8-6-4. Mine=
 may=20
have been the only one that worked,&nbsp;and I never had a problem with it.=20
</DIV>
<DIV>In July, I bought my wife the 04 Caddy SRX, with all the bells and=20
whistles. Navigation system, voice controlled. (say "go Home" and it will pl=
ot=20
your course) and just ordered the 05 STS with the latest heads up display,=20
automatic cruise control (set the speed, if some cuts in front of you, the c=
ar=20
slows down to a safe distance) and all wheel drive.</DIV>
<DIV>I know some of you guys disagree, but to my way of thinking GM still ma=
kes=20
the best cars in the world. Cadillac is known for their recent advances in=20
electronics, magnetic ride control, and the 4.6 litreV-8 320 HP will do 0-60=
 in=20
5.8 seconds and 60-0 in 4.2 seconds. That's Cadillac engineering. That's=20
American engineering.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DArial size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" PTSIZE=3D"10"=
>Bruce<BR>75=20
Delta 88 Conv. (duals, of course)<BR>72 Cutlass Conv.<BR>56 190 SL Conv.<BR>=
92=20
Eldo</FONT></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

- -------------------------------1097527910--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:41:57 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: TH 350 behind a 455

> My concern is durability, not performance.


For automatic transmissions, those 2 words mean the same thing. In order to
get high performance, the transmission is modified to be as bullet-proof as
possible. For maximum performance and durability, the TH350, needs better
bands with high quality friction materials, maximum number of high friction
clutches in the clutch drum packs, maximum main line pressure with more
precise hydraulic control from the valve body, accumulator and governor
modifications, and a deep pan for more fluid volume with an external
transmission cooler. A complete modification package can be purchased from
B&M or other high performance transmission manufacturers.

Since you don't know what cam is in your engine and your car is fairly
heavy, an 11" converter with furnace brazed vanes and Torrington needle
thrust bearings would be the way to go.

A TH400 would be the better choice, but since the TH350 is what you have, it
can be modified to survive behind your 455.

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 17:38:08 -0400
From: John Livingston <johnliving@cox.net>
Subject: more MSD headaches

I sent this yesterday, but it never seemed to get through. Sorry to 
be so long-winded.

Folks,

As some may recall, I've been spending the last couple of weeks 
installing a GM HD (MSD)ignition box, along with a host of new wiring 
under the hood to improve voltage stability. The first time I tried 
firing the new system up, it started nicely and idled well, but fast. 
I also got a backfire when hitting the throttle. I adjusted the 
timing, the backfire went away, and then returned (I had had the 
distributor cap off and back on - it may be I didn't get it seated 
right and the timing was off again). I disconnected the vac advance 
line and plugged it (as I had been doing when setting the timing) and 
then drove the car without a hiccup for several miles. It seemed to 
run great on just the centrifugal advance. Okay, says I, let's head 
for the mall! The family and I made it about six miles when the 
engine quit at about 40 mph. Just died completely like the power had 
been cut to the ignition. I could not revive it and eventually it was 
towed home.

Today, I installed all the bits necessary to have an external Blaster 
2 coil, cleaned up the wiring, and made sure I was getting solid 
power to the ignition box. When cranked, it would sputter a little, 
but not run. I figured the timing must be off again (even though the 
distributor was bolted down well). I moved it counterclockwise and 
got a hell of a backfire. I moved it even more clockwise (past where 
it had been originally) and it ran, albeit roughly. I thought maybe I 
had a plug wire in the wrong spot, but they all checked out. I 
connected the timing light. It showed maybe 40 to 30 degrees advance, 
but if I move it toward a more normal setting, #1 plug stops firing 
and thus I get no illumination from the timing light at all.

Is there some way to easily determine whether I've got the #1 plug 
wire on the distributor at the right spot? If you use the locating 
lug on the cap as a reference point, I think I've got the last one to 
fire, #2, over that, and #1 comes just after it, counter-clockwise. 
(If the part of the cap that sticks out for the connections is 
considered due west, the #1 wire would be south-southwest) I'm pretty 
sure that's where it's been all along, but they've been off and on 
enough that's it tough to be sure. I've triple-checked to make sure 
I've got the proper 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 sequence.

Secondly, now that I've got the orange wire from the GM ignition box 
going to the positive terminal on the Blaster coil, there doesn't 
seem to be anything going to the condenser inside the distributor. Is 
this correct?

Any suggestions, other than turning in my shade-tree mechanic 
license, would be appreciated.

I sure hope it's misplaced plug wires, and not some missing timing 
gear teeth or the like.

John
68 442 convt.

John

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:09:20 -0400
From: Joe Vahabzadeh <king_v@mindless.com>
Subject: Re: TH 350 behind a 455

At 09:40 AM 10/11/04 -0400, Brian wrote:
>In my 69 Cutlass Convertible, I have  a 455 block out of a 71 442  with C
>heads. I am unsure of the cam, but believe it to be non stock. I have a
>leaky (original) TH350 in the car, and a local highly regarded mechanic with
>extensive transmission experience is going to rebuild the transmission for
>me. What torque converter and modifications outside of a standard rebuild
>would be recommended for this transmission?  I forget the gear ratio, but
>the car is best suited for cruising, not racing. I want this to stand up to
>the
>occasion stomp on the loud pedal, but still be a comfortable family cruiser.
>My concern is durability, not performance.


Well, everyone will likely say that the best way to go for durability is
the TH400.

I agree with that.

However, the TH350, while not as strong as the TH400, is nothing to sneeze at.

Stock, I am under the impression that they'll hold up to a mild 455, but
will build up more heat and generally in the long run not be as happy about
it.

If you're getting it rebuilt, though, I'm sure the builder can beef things
up a bit.  An external trans cooler I imagine would be recommended.

I would recommend going with a tight, stock-like torque converter.  If the
rest of the motor's more for cruising, and (I assume) you have a relatively
low r(numerically) ear-end ratio, you don't want any extra slippage.  The
455 has plenty of bottom end grunt.

I am, admittedly, biased against using higher-stall-speed converters
though, so you should take that with a grain of salt.  However, since it'll
be a cruiser with only occasional abuse, I'd say low stall speed.  Keep the
trans-fluid temps down, and keep your revs and fuel consumption down a bit
when using it as a cruiser.


	- Joe Vahabzadeh

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:56:12 EDT
From: KS7RACING@aol.com
Subject: Re: more MSD headaches

In a message dated 10/11/04 4:44:50 PM Central Daylight Time, 
johnliving@cox.net writes:
- -- Secondly, now that I've got the orange wire from the GM ignition box going 
to the positive terminal on the Blaster coil, there doesn't seem to be 
anything going to the condenser inside the distributor. Is this correct? --

Exactly.  It isn't needed anymore -- in fact, with removing the coil (from 
the HEI distributor) the only small wires on it should be the two connected to 
the pickup coil in the bottom of the housing.  Everything else should be 
connected to the MSD box and/or the external coil.

Double check that you don't have distributor cap trouble -- with the added 
voltage from the Blaster coil any defect in the cap and/or rotor would manifest 
itself quickly.

Take Care,
SrA Ken Snyder
Kansas City, Kansas

By the way, while driving one of the track clean-up trucks during the Banquet 
400 Sunday at the Kansas Speedway, I completed more laps around the track 
than the last place finishing car!  There's something to be said about driving 
alongside a NASCAR Nextel Cup car on the track, even if they're behind the pace 
car.  Dale Jr. even blipped the throttle once as I was passing him (on my way 
back to my station in Turn 3), that was a rush!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:15:49 +0000
From: Steve Harrison <k0xp@dandy.net>
Subject: Re: more MSD headaches

At 05:38 PM 10/11/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>I sure hope it's misplaced plug wires, and not some missing timing 
>gear teeth or the like.

Sure sounds like a stripped timing gear. Wanna read a true-life story bout
that?
http://members.dandy.net/~k0xp/Oldsmobile/88%20Caprice%20Wagon/TimingChain.htm

>Any suggestions, other than turning in my shade-tree mechanic 
>license, would be appreciated.

Too bad you messed with the distributor timing location already; you cudda
told whether 
the cam had slipped just by removing the cap and looking at where the rotor
pointed. For that reason alone, please do return your shade-tree mechanic
license  ;o\  ;o\  ;o\

Mine wound up halfway between the #1 and #8 cylinders with the timing mark
on the balancer at TDC but I KNEW the distributor was set to 24* BTDC. When
I reset the balancer to 24* BTDC, the rotor had crept slightly closer
toward #1 but was still way off and nowhere near #1 in the cap.

The CSM does give a description of how to determine whether the cam is
outta time with the crank, lemme find it:
AHHhhh...

"CHECKING VALVE TIMING WITHOUT REMOVING FRONT COVER
Remove or Disconnect
1. Distributor cap
2. R.H valve cover
3. No. 4 cylinder intake and exhaust rocker arms and pivot. (SEE CAUTION
BELOW)
4. Wire from "Bat." terminal of H.E.I. distributor
5. Turn ignition switch on. Crank engine until rotor is in line with No. 4
spark plug wire position. No. 4 piston will be approximately at the top of
the cylinder.

MEASURE
1. Measure from pivot boss on head surface to top of No. 4 intake push-rod.
Record measurement. (Fig. 42)
2. Slowly turn engine 1-1/2 revolutions until rotor approaches No. 1 spark
plug wire position. Continue to turn engine until timing mark on crankshaft
hub is aligned with "O" on indicator. This is top dead center of No. 1 piston.
3. Again measure from pivot boss surface to top of No. 4 cylinder intake
pushrod.
   * Measurement should increase over the first measurement (Fig. 42)
   * If measurement increase is not within 3.15mm (1/8") of that shown,
camshaft is advanced or retarded."

Although they refer to finding #1 and #4 TDC using the distributor rotor
position, this is simply to be sure you aren't looking at those cylinders
when the camshaft is 180 degrees out (rember the cam rotates once for every
two revs of the crank). So you really only need to make sure the rotor is
pointing basically toward #1 or #4 in general, above.

The measurement you're doing above on the #4 intake pushrod is actually
kind of clever  ;o)))))  What you're really doing is measuring #4's intake
lobe on the camshaft at a point where a small amount of camshaft movement
causes a large amount of lift difference on #4 cylinder. So what you are
actually doing is bringing #4 to TDC then measuring the amount of lift of
#4's intake lobe. Now bring #1 to TDC and again measure the amount of lift
of #4's intake lobe. It's now supposed to be MORE, but by only about 1/8".

Unfortunately, the above pertains to a 1984 307 VIN Y camshaft; yours very
likely has different specs  ;o((((((((  Being a 442 cam, it could be almost
anything.

But maybe your CSM mentions a similar measurement; look in the section
dealing with replacement of the timing chain and gears.

SteveH

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 17:07:15 -0700
From: Mark Mullins <mark@marineaviation.org>
Subject: Re: Converting to A/C

And they're usually on ebay.

M

At 03:11 PM 10/11/2004 +0000, you wrote:
> > I'm also aware that the hole in the firewall will need to be partially
> > welded up?
>
>Isn't there a vendor that deals in firewall plates?  They have plates to 
>convert from heat to a/c, a/c to heat, or eliminate all of it.  Can't 
>remember who they are.
>
>Paul

Mark Mullins
Tucson, Az

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 17:25:14 -0700
From: "Rick & Roxanne" <aremessenger@icehouse.net>
Subject: Re: Re:

The wife still likes& loves me, luv handles and a chest that seems to be
sliding into my drawers! LOL
You know the old saying "what goes around , comes around". It seems to me
that  the auto design departments are at the end of their "computer aided"
design options for all the new stuff. I guess that they will have to start
getting out the paper and (crayons), and really Draw! It would be nice to
see some real artistic graceful lines again. Seems to me we may start seeing
just that. I don't know about you, but I tire of all the "pinched off turd"
designed cars. From a distance, it was getting difficult telling makes
apart.
Rick
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ron fama" <77w30442@comcast.net>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 5:58 AM
Subject: Re:


> i wish i had a great body. lol
> some of the car designs are nice but whats funny look at concept cars from
50's-60's
>  there are alot of simularieties in todays cars except for now the
computors ,wireing,switches and
> ect. weigh more than the shell of the car.
> well off to work,
> take care
> ron
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Rick & Roxanne" <aremessenger@icehouse.net>
> To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 1:25 AM
>
>
> >
<001b01c4ae24$10496e40$25278d45@D7KRQR11><000701c4ae2b$aacced00$0300a8c0@co
> >       mputer><000e01c4ae2f$c3eea770$25278d45@D7KRQR11>
> >
<011d01c4aef5$57dd7bd0$0201a8c0@D12TVT41><000b01c4af1a$1d7f29a0$0300a8c0@co
> > mputer> <000c01c4af43$a5383390$25278d45@D7KRQR11>
> > Subject: Re: Non Olds Humor
> > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 22:25:36 -0700
> > X-Priority: 3
> > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437
> > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441
> > X-Scrubber-ClamAV: clean
> > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> > Ron.........,when your right.....,your right. But my O my, what a great
> > lookin body.
> > Rick
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "ron fama" <77w30442@comcast.net>
> > To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 8:37 PM
> > Subject: Re: Non Olds Humor
> >
> >
> >> the bottom line is every manufacturer has there problems.
> >> to be fair you would have to compare total number of cars sold by each
and
> > break the problems down
> >> by category and compare failure to sales ratio. chrysler has the most
> > recalls per  car than any
> >> manufacturer ive seen
> >> ron
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "Rick & Roxanne" <aremessenger@icehouse.net>
> >> To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 6:40 PM
> >> Subject: Re: Non Olds Humor
> >>
> >>
> >> > Unfortunately, I am forced to agree with you. I prefer to buy
American,
> > but
> >> > unless it is a "hobby" car, I don't want to have to work on it any
more
> > than
> >> > is necessary. This is why I drive Toyotas for my regular
transportation.
> > I
> >> > have friends with Olds. Auroras, and I have been told that the engine
is
> > a
> >> > de-tuned Northstar V8. Many have had serious trouble with these cars.
I
> >> > guess it is not unusual for Cadillac's to have anywhere from 2 to 4,
> > even 5
> >> > computers on board them. Those who have kept their cars past the
> > warranty
> >> > period, have had to pay dearly for all the electronic problems. While
I
> > like
> >> > some of the designs that are coming out of Detroit, I am leery. I
guess
> > that
> >> > new Chrysler 300 with the Hemi, is quite the car.
> >> >
> >> > Let me say this about  Mercedes, they have been doing worse in the
> >> > reliability department, as have Audi, and all the Lawyers BMWs, than
> > have
> >> > the American Luxury brands. If you want to go broke fast, marry a
"gold
> >> > digger", and get her a Mercedes! LOL
> >> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> > From: <1979hurstolds@earthlink.net>
> >> > To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
> >> > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 11:17 AM
> >> > Subject: Re: Non Olds Humor
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Regardless of what I would make of it its still a Cadillac and will
> >> > probably
> >> >> therefore be lucky to make it much over a100k miles... I swore years
> > ago
> >> > I'd
> >> >> never own another Cadillac (unless it was a '59 and then I'd use
Olds
> >> > engine
> >> >> & tranny) after the POS 72 or 3 I had and then the POS 69 friend
had.
> > In
> >> >> fact most of the people I've known who've had Caddi's have had some
> >> > serious
> >> >> difficulties ESPECIALLY with electronics (wonder how this thing will
> >> > fare).
> >> >> My opinion on Caddi's in general - OVER-engineered and UNDER-built!
> >> >>
> >> >> Sorry for the obviously heavily biased post but... my experience!
If
> > you
> >> >> want a luxury car... get an fullsize Olds... if you want a NEW
luxury
> >> > car...
> >> >> get a Mercedes or a Lexus... if that's too expensive for you Lincoln
is
> >> >> still around (but you'd be happier with a low mileage full-sized
Olds).
> >> >>
> >> >> Later Gang...
> >> >> Clayton Pierce
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 17:40:02 -0700
From: "Rick & Roxanne" <aremessenger@icehouse.net>
Subject: Re: Non Olds Humor

I have found it interesting the extent that GM and Toyota are in bed
together. Many of the parts in my Toys. are from GM, or from their
subsidiaries. This is industry wide, and it is true that the mighty Japanese
auto industry is beginning to slip. According to Consumer Reports, the
American Auto industry has bested the mighty Germans, and now is in the
number 2 spot where reliability is concerned. They still have to beat Honda
and Toyota, and if they start using that old fashioned Yankee know how, they
may pull it off.  Still though, with all the electronics on Cadillac's, and
other luxury brands; if you keep it long enough, it's gonna cost you lost's
of green. This is why I like the old Oldsmobile's,,they are still a great
ride, and fairly easy to work on. And still, in my humble opinion, one of
the finest looking cars on the road!
Rick Messenger
76 98 LS coupe
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Schopen, Kenneth" <kenneth.schopen@medtronic.com>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: Non Olds Humor


> > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:17:02 -0400
> > From: <1979hurstolds@earthlink.net>
> > Subject: Re: Non Olds Humor
> >
> > Regardless of what I would make of it its still a Cadillac
> > and will probably therefore be lucky to make it much over a100k miles...
I
> > swore years ago I'd never own another Cadillac (unless it was a '59 and
then I'd
> > use Olds engine & tranny) after the POS 72 or 3 I had and then the POS
69
> > friend had.  In fact most of the people I've known who've had Caddi's
have
> > had some serious difficulties ESPECIALLY with electronics (wonder how
this
> > thing will fare).
> > My opinion on Caddi's in general - OVER-engineered and UNDER-built!
> >
> > Sorry for the obviously heavily biased post but... my
> > experience!  If you want a luxury car... get an fullsize Olds... if you
want a
> > NEW luxury car... get a Mercedes or a Lexus... if that's too expensive
for you
> > Lincoln is still around (but you'd be happier with a low mileage
> > full-sized Olds).
> >
> > Later Gang...
> > Clayton Pierce
>
> Interesting. I recently attended a seminar on Product Reliability taught
by a fella with 30+ years in industry. He got off on a tangent about
automobiles, his take was that the Japanese had been surpassed by Cadillac
in reliability (the rest of GM's lineup didn't rate as highly). Also, he did
not have a favorable opinion of the German auto manufacturers - apparently
they have not progressed as much as the rest of the industry in reliability
testing.
>
> Kenneth
> 1971 Cutlass Supreme convertible
> Phoenix, AZ
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:50:42 -0400
From: "ron fama" <77w30442@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Re:

i would of loved to see a retro 69 hurst olds.
 ron
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rick & Roxanne" <aremessenger@icehouse.net>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: Re:


> The wife still likes& loves me, luv handles and a chest that seems to be
> sliding into my drawers! LOL
> You know the old saying "what goes around , comes around". It seems to me
> that  the auto design departments are at the end of their "computer aided"
> design options for all the new stuff. I guess that they will have to start
> getting out the paper and (crayons), and really Draw! It would be nice to
> see some real artistic graceful lines again. Seems to me we may start seeing
> just that. I don't know about you, but I tire of all the "pinched off turd"
> designed cars. From a distance, it was getting difficult telling makes
> apart.
> Rick
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "ron fama" <77w30442@comcast.net>
> To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 5:58 AM
> Subject: Re:
> 
> 
>> i wish i had a great body. lol
>> some of the car designs are nice but whats funny look at concept cars from
> 50's-60's
>>  there are alot of simularieties in todays cars except for now the
> computors ,wireing,switches and
>> ect. weigh more than the shell of the car.
>> well off to work,
>> take care
>> ron
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Rick & Roxanne" <aremessenger@icehouse.net>
>> To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 1:25 AM
>>
>>
>> >
> <001b01c4ae24$10496e40$25278d45@D7KRQR11><000701c4ae2b$aacced00$0300a8c0@co
>> >       mputer><000e01c4ae2f$c3eea770$25278d45@D7KRQR11>
>> >
> <011d01c4aef5$57dd7bd0$0201a8c0@D12TVT41><000b01c4af1a$1d7f29a0$0300a8c0@co
>> > mputer> <000c01c4af43$a5383390$25278d45@D7KRQR11>
>> > Subject: Re: Non Olds Humor
>> > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 22:25:36 -0700
>> > X-Priority: 3
>> > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
>> > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437
>> > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441
>> > X-Scrubber-ClamAV: clean
>> > MIME-Version: 1.0
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>> >
>> > Ron.........,when your right.....,your right. But my O my, what a great
>> > lookin body.
>> > Rick
>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>> > From: "ron fama" <77w30442@comcast.net>
>> > To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
>> > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 8:37 PM
>> > Subject: Re: Non Olds Humor
>> >
>> >
>> >> the bottom line is every manufacturer has there problems.
>> >> to be fair you would have to compare total number of cars sold by each
> and
>> > break the problems down
>> >> by category and compare failure to sales ratio. chrysler has the most
>> > recalls per  car than any
>> >> manufacturer ive seen
>> >> ron
>> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >> From: "Rick & Roxanne" <aremessenger@icehouse.net>
>> >> To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
>> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 6:40 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: Non Olds Humor
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Unfortunately, I am forced to agree with you. I prefer to buy
> American,
>> > but
>> >> > unless it is a "hobby" car, I don't want to have to work on it any
> more
>> > than
>> >> > is necessary. This is why I drive Toyotas for my regular
> transportation.
>> > I
>> >> > have friends with Olds. Auroras, and I have been told that the engine
> is
>> > a
>> >> > de-tuned Northstar V8. Many have had serious trouble with these cars.
> I
>> >> > guess it is not unusual for Cadillac's to have anywhere from 2 to 4,
>> > even 5
>> >> > computers on board them. Those who have kept their cars past the
>> > warranty
>> >> > period, have had to pay dearly for all the electronic problems. While
> I
>> > like
>> >> > some of the designs that are coming out of Detroit, I am leery. I
> guess
>> > that
>> >> > new Chrysler 300 with the Hemi, is quite the car.
>> >> >
>> >> > Let me say this about  Mercedes, they have been doing worse in the
>> >> > reliability department, as have Audi, and all the Lawyers BMWs, than
>> > have
>> >> > the American Luxury brands. If you want to go broke fast, marry a
> "gold
>> >> > digger", and get her a Mercedes! LOL
>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>> >> > From: <1979hurstolds@earthlink.net>
>> >> > To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
>> >> > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 11:17 AM
>> >> > Subject: Re: Non Olds Humor
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Regardless of what I would make of it its still a Cadillac and will
>> >> > probably
>> >> >> therefore be lucky to make it much over a100k miles... I swore years
>> > ago
>> >> > I'd
>> >> >> never own another Cadillac (unless it was a '59 and then I'd use
> Olds
>> >> > engine
>> >> >> & tranny) after the POS 72 or 3 I had and then the POS 69 friend
> had.
>> > In
>> >> >> fact most of the people I've known who've had Caddi's have had some
>> >> > serious
>> >> >> difficulties ESPECIALLY with electronics (wonder how this thing will
>> >> > fare).
>> >> >> My opinion on Caddi's in general - OVER-engineered and UNDER-built!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Sorry for the obviously heavily biased post but... my experience!
> If
>> > you
>> >> >> want a luxury car... get an fullsize Olds... if you want a NEW
> luxury
>> >> > car...
>> >> >> get a Mercedes or a Lexus... if that's too expensive for you Lincoln
> is
>> >> >> still around (but you'd be happier with a low mileage full-sized
> Olds).
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Later Gang...
>> >> >> Clayton Pierce
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
>

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #5053
*********************************
