
oldsmobile-digest     Thursday, October 14 2004     Volume 01 : Number 5058



76 98 2-dr parts car in
Free cars and distance
End of an Era: The defogger kits must go...
67 Cutlass sheetmetal
468 blue smoke when cold
RE: End of an Era: The defogger kits must go...
Re: 49 Olds 88
Re: 49 Olds 88
Re: more MSD headaches that aren't MSD's fault
Re: 49 Olds 88
Re: 468 blue smoke when cold
MSD headaches not MSD's fault - Milton right again
Re: on the verge of having OCA Judging results!
Re: Free cars and distance
Re: 468 blue smoke when cold
Re: Anti-Rust Solution Application
RE: Toro AL intakes in the works
Conversion Utilities Web Page
MSD Servicing Info
was Re: more MSD headaches; now HEI and coil information - very long
Re: Anti-Rust Solution Application
Re: more MSD headaches
RE: UNBOUNCE: '65 F-85 4-door
Re: was Re: more MSD headaches; now HEI and coil information - very long

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:03:48 -0400
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: 76 98 2-dr parts car in

Engine does not seem to run as well as the lady led me to believe. Missing a 
cyl or two, will ck into that as time and weather permit. At worst, a 
rebuildable core 455 anyhow.

1976 98 2-door

Nice jack, spare tire, wheel covers, interior [pillow look red cushions, 
nice rear seat], glass, AM/FM radio, power windows still work, power locks, 
dash clock [digital! Ooooooh!], huge differential. 455, TH400. AC parts. 
Underhood items. Hood hinges. Disk brakes, brake booster, etc. Might have a 
power seat too.

Gone or spoken for:
Sheetmetal is wasted. Bumpers have cat sized holes. Skirts too.
Rear rubber body to bumper fillers spoken for.
Plastic Trim around the rear qtr small side windows is wasted of course.
RH Rear side thin bright SS trim [~8 ft long, waist high on the car] has 
dents.

Chris Witt
1303 W. Miller Rd.
Lansing MI 48911

517-449-0432
RocketScience442@hotmail.com

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 10:00:28 -0500
From: "Ian Dixon" <IDixon@sbrc.ca>
Subject: Free cars and distance

Make that two parsecs and a border crossing. :)

Junquer's maxim:  There's an inverse relationship between the cost of
the car and the difficulty in procurement.

Ian


>Why, oh why, are the free cars a lightyear away?
>Milton Schick

______
>der. Unfortunately, I have allowed the car to remain parked in the
>garage
> without ever cranking it over. The engine has 113,000 miles on it and
it
>is
> a 330 V8 2 barrel carb. I would like to find someone that may want it
for
> parts or attempt to turn into their daily driver. All they need to do
is
> pick it up and take it away.
> The car is located in Tarrytown, New York, 28 miles North of New York
City
> in Westchester County.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 06:33:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: chris smetana <grp442@yahoo.com>
Subject: End of an Era: The defogger kits must go...

- --0-1983067744-1097760837=:38433
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Longtime Olds list readers might remember the Defogger Wars, which 
broke out 
as a dispute between me and Mike Frederick over... Um... Well, like all 
good 
wars, it went on long after the participants had forgotten what they 
were 
fighting about. I think it had something to do with whether you should 
or 
should not use liquid soap to get your window tint to stick without 
bubbles, 
and whether this was a good thing to stick on top of grid-type 
defoggers, 
and yours truly was supposed to be an expert on defoggers... Oh, yeah, 
I 
should probably mention that this wasn't a real flamewar but more of a 
running nudge-nudge-wink-wink argument, like Jack Benny vs. Fred 
Allen...
<snip>
 
WOW, that brings back some memories.  I had forgotten about the window tint, um, discussion.
 
Chris (if I'm a longtime olds list member, does that make me an old timer :-o ) Smetana
grp442@yahoo.com
 

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- --0-1983067744-1097760837=:38433
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<DIV>Longtime Olds list readers might remember the Defogger Wars, which <BR>broke out <BR>as a dispute between me and Mike Frederick over... Um... Well, like all <BR>good <BR>wars, it went on long after the participants had forgotten what they <BR>were <BR>fighting about. I think it had something to do with whether you should <BR>or <BR>should not use liquid soap to get your window tint to stick without <BR>bubbles, <BR>and whether this was a good thing to stick on top of grid-type <BR>defoggers, <BR>and yours truly was supposed to be an expert on defoggers... Oh, yeah, <BR>I <BR>should probably mention that this wasn't a real flamewar but more of a <BR>running nudge-nudge-wink-wink argument, like Jack Benny vs. Fred <BR>Allen...</DIV>
<DIV>&lt;snip&gt;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>WOW, that brings back some memories.&nbsp; I had forgotten about the window tint, um, discussion.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Chris (if I'm a longtime olds list member, does that make me an old timer :-o ) Smetana</DIV>
<DIV><A href="mailto:grp442@yahoo.com">grp442@yahoo.com</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><p>__________________________________________________<br>Do You Yahoo!?<br>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around <br>http://mail.yahoo.com 
- --0-1983067744-1097760837=:38433--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 09:49:14 -0400
From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
Subject: 67 Cutlass sheetmetal

Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 19:47:48 -0300 (ADT)
From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Subject: UNBOUNCE: Seeking 1967 olds cutlass parts

Not on the list, respond to Jwimpla@aol.com if you can assist. CB Witt,
this sounds like one for you...

Greg Beaulieu    ab348@chebucto.ns.ca    Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada
          Olds List Admin Info: http://oldslist.oldsgmail.com

- - ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:   Jwimpla@aol.com
Subject: 1967 olds cutlass parts

Looking for hood,fenders,grill and bumper for 1967 olds cultass

If anyone knows where any  or all these parts could be found please email me
at jwimpla@aol.com or call me 800-616-0722

Thanks

Jeff Fowler
================
Not much sheet meatl left here in MI
I think I do have a bumper at this time that's not too bad
Where would the metal have to go to? Shipping of a hood is no small feat.

CBWitt
517-449-0432

_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:56:43 -0300
From: "Tour Op & Travel Agency Trade 2000" <travelchile@manquehue.net>
Subject: 468 blue smoke when cold

hi all, I'm very happy all day long with the 468 in my 81CS, but this blue
smoke of burn oil starts to worry me.
Occurs only in the morning, after I moved the car a couple of time in and
out of the house during the previous day. Could it be normal with forgged
pistons? In 1500mile there is a very little less oil on the dipstick and the
engine has only ... 1500 mile since rebuild.
any experience to share about big engine with forged slugs?
rgds
Matt
81CS 468ci

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 13:05:15 -0500
From: "Dave Wyatt" <wyattolds@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: End of an Era: The defogger kits must go...

Yes, more oldtimer everyday, just like me!

Those were some classic posts and I really miss those exchanges.


Dave Wyatt
70  4-4-2
67 Vista Cruiser




>From: chris smetana <grp442@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
>To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
>Subject: End of an Era: The defogger kits must go...
>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 06:33:57 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>WOW, that brings back some memories.  I had forgotten about the window 
>tint, um, discussion.
>
>Chris (if I'm a longtime olds list member, does that make me an old timer 
>:-o ) Smetana
>grp442@yahoo.com
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:16:38 -0400
From: Paul Hartlieb <62oldsfan@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: 49 Olds 88

> I'm seriously considering buying this 1949 Olds 88:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2494066040&fromMakeTrack=true
> 
> Comments?

Looks very nice.  And price is reasonable, compared to what I just witnessed at the Fall Hershey meet.  There were 88 and 98 sedans there for bigger money than that.

Paul

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:17:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Pajak <ransomeliolds@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: 49 Olds 88

"The seller ended this listing early because the item
is no longer available for sale"

I guess it's a moot point now.

=====
John Pajak

http://jspajak.tripod.com

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 12:53:22 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: more MSD headaches that aren't MSD's fault

> Okay. Then do you think if I just get the HEI pieces back in and use
> the current position of the distributor as a starting point to set
> timing, that it should fire up?


That's what I think, as long as you haven't moved the distributor out of
phase with #1 plug wire at TDC firing on #1 cylinder.

You have pulled or lifted the distributor, have you?

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 16:17:27 EDT
From: HURSTOLDZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: 49 Olds 88

- -------------------------------1097785047
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The seller ended this listing early because the item is no longer available  
for sale.
 
Rev.Vincent Buonfiglio
Pillars of Faith Tabernacle,  Pastor;
Victorious Overcomers Support Group
Substance Abuse Program,  President and Director
_1-800-DRUGWAR_ (http://victoriousovercomers.net/) 

- -------------------------------1097785047
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=3Drole_body style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20=
Arial"=20
bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7><FONT id=3Drol=
e_document=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>
<DIV>The seller ended this listing early because the item is no longer avail=
able=20
for sale.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=3D0 face=3D"Californian FB" size=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SERIF"=20
PTSIZE=3D"12"><B><I>Rev.Vincent Buonfiglio<BR>Pillars of Faith Tabernacle,=20
Pastor;<BR>Victorious Overcomers Support Group<BR>Substance Abuse Program,=20
President and Director<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://victoriousovercomers.net/">1-800-DRUGWAR</A></B></I></FONT></=
DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

- -------------------------------1097785047--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:33:24 -0400
From: "Frederick Nissen" <fsnissen@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: 468 blue smoke when cold

> hi all, I'm very happy all day long with the 468 in my 81CS, but this blue
> smoke of burn oil starts to worry me.
> Occurs only in the morning, after I moved the car a couple of time in and
> out of the house during the previous day. Could it be normal with forgged
> pistons? In 1500mile there is a very little less oil on the dipstick and
the
> engine has only ... 1500 mile since rebuild.

- -------------------

I wouldn't be too concerned about it at this point.  Oil burning under the
conditions you describe is usually from the top end.  Thick (cold) oil
doesn't drain back as quick as thin (hot ) oil and thus tends to pool in the
heads.  This gives it more chances to seep past the stem seals and valve
guides.  While I doubt they are the issue under the conditions you describe,
the rings are probably not seated yet either.  Tell us what is going on in
another 4,000 miles.

Regards,
Fred

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:42:52 -0400
From: John Livingston <johnliving@cox.net>
Subject: MSD headaches not MSD's fault - Milton right again

Mea culpa one more time, with feeling!

I just got finished putting back in all the HEI bits I had so 
carefully removed last week. Set the distributor so the connections 
pointed more or less due west, and fired it up. Started fairly easily 
considering it'd been sitting out in a deluge the last two days. 
However, it began running slower and slower until it died. I shifted 
the distributor counter-clockwise, in my time-honored tradition. 
Nothing. Kept moving it incrementally clockwise and it finally fired 
again, this time coming up on fast idle nicely and running well 
enough I could finally get it from its humiliating position on the 
curb and into the garage. I don't have time at the moment to put the 
timing light on it, but it sure sounded good. Dieseled some at shut 
down, but that's not surprising with my ham-fisted manipulating of 
the distributor.

Guess I'll put off the Cloyes order for a bit! Unfortunately, I have 
to go out of town for a couple of days, but should be able to do real 
work on it this Sunday and then maybe get it out for a road test.

Maybe I'll put the timing chain money toward that 6A unit. Anyone got 
a used one they want to let go cheap?

Just kidding.

BTW I've been using some of those Summit Posi-Lock wiring connectors 
while doing all this. They seem to work very well and are ideal for 
us rubes who aren't sure we'll get it right the first time. Once 
everything is in and working right, you can remove the PosiLocks and 
solder everything up.
http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=partdetail.asp&part=SUM%2DPTL1026%2D30&N=110&Ntk=KeywordSearch&Ntt=posilock

John Not Yet The Civic Driver Livingston
68 442 convt. home in the garage

>  > Okay. Then do you think if I just get the HEI pieces back in and use
>>  the current position of the distributor as a starting point to set
>>  timing, that it should fire up?
>
>
>That's what I think, as long as you haven't moved the distributor out of
>phase with #1 plug wire at TDC firing on #1 cylinder.
>
>You have pulled or lifted the distributor, have you?
>
>Milton Schick
>1964 442 Cutlass
>imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:41:02 -0400
From: "Frederick Nissen" <fsnissen@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: on the verge of having OCA Judging results!

> Is it just me, or does this sound curt and PO'd?

- --------------

Chris,

You are a good guy.  Don't take everythng personally.  I send lots of
messages that are far more curt and to the point than that with no evil
intent.  I just don't have time for a longer response and, personally,
dislike long winded writing.  You won your battle, OCA saw the light.  Time
to decare victory and move on.  I was 100% on your side on this one.  OCA
screwed up big time, and I was quite pleased that they fixed it without
resort to the courts.

Regards,
Fred


> >From: "Bill & Liz Blood" <weblood@worldnet.att.net>
> >To: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
> >CC: "Bob Casey" <yellowbird@golden.net>
> >Subject: Re: Update on 2004 Judging Results? Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004
> >01:39:45 -0500
> >
> >Mr. Witt- I am sending your judging form and attendant award via
registered
> >mail on  Thursday as informed by Chief Judge Bob Casey. You should
receive
> >it within a week.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 18:16:41 -0400
From: Joe Vahabzadeh <king_v@mindless.com>
Subject: Re: Free cars and distance

Eek . . this one is actually not too far from me . . .

Not having a flatbed, though, makes it slightly impractical.  If I knew I
could get it started and running without hurting it........


	- Joe

At 10:00 AM 10/14/04 -0500, you wrote:
>Make that two parsecs and a border crossing. :)
>
>Junquer's maxim:  There's an inverse relationship between the cost of
>the car and the difficulty in procurement.
>
>Ian
>
>
>>Why, oh why, are the free cars a lightyear away?
>>Milton Schick
>
>______
>>der. Unfortunately, I have allowed the car to remain parked in the
>>garage
>> without ever cranking it over. The engine has 113,000 miles on it and
>it
>>is
>> a 330 V8 2 barrel carb. I would like to find someone that may want it
>for
>> parts or attempt to turn into their daily driver. All they need to do
>is
>> pick it up and take it away.
>> The car is located in Tarrytown, New York, 28 miles North of New York
>City
>> in Westchester County.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 15:31:37 -0700
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
Subject: Re: 468 blue smoke when cold

> hi all, I'm very happy all day long with the 468 in my 81CS, but this blue
> smoke of burn oil starts to worry me.
> Occurs only in the morning, after I moved the car a couple of time in and
> out of the house during the previous day. Could it be normal with forgged
> pistons? In 1500mile there is a very little less oil on the dipstick and
the
> engine has only ... 1500 mile since rebuild.
> any experience to share about big engine with forged slugs?


Matt,

Several questions. First, what type of valve seals did you use? Second, what
wall clearance on the piston skirts did the machine shop use? Third, what
brand and part number of forged piston did you use? Fourth, how was the
cylinder walls honed and what size micro-pattern was put on the walls?
Fifth, what type and brand of piston rings did you use?

Milton Schick
1964 442 Cutlass
imp@theriver.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 18:29:16 EDT
From: KS7RACING@aol.com
Subject: Re: Anti-Rust Solution Application

In a message dated 10/14/04 12:22:12 AM Central Daylight Time, Milton Shick 
writes:
- -- Can you remove all of the interior in the section where you need to get 
the de-rusting fluid? --

Milton,

The entire interior of the truck's out, with the exception of the steering 
column, a couple of under-dash parts, windshield and rear glass.  The problem I 
have is that the only access place (currently) is where the interior "dome" 
light (actually above the rear window) mounts.  There's two solid pieces of 
sheet metal in close proximity to each other: the sheet metal on the ceiling you'd 
see in a 70's Brand C/GMC truck from the inside if you didn't have the deluxe 
interior, and the actual roof sheet metal.  They're not more than an inch or 
so apart, and I want to insure the entire roof area's covered clear up to the 
front of the cab.

I could cut an access port in the ceiling large enough to get a squirt bottle 
up in there, since I'm going to install the deluxe interior.  Once the 
headliner's in place you wouldn't know it was there.

Is it imperative to "wash" out the solution and not just let it dry in there? 
 That means I'll have to wait to do it until I get the truck back on all 4 
wheels.

At one time I was real tempted to install an Olds engine in this critter, but 
I want to save my current stock for race engines:-)

Thanks for the assistance, and Take Care!
SrA Ken Snyder
Kansas City, Kansas

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 15:33:01 -0700
From: "Schopen, Kenneth" <kenneth.schopen@medtronic.com>
Subject: RE: Toro AL intakes in the works

> Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 09:20:33 -0400
> From: "Christopher Witt" <rocketscience442@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Toro AL intakes in the works
>
>
> I was just reading up on the development of the Toronado in 
> general*, and they say that the Toro intake, rather than inhibiting 
> performance, was required to show GAINS**. That has been my experience, too, 
> in actual use. 
> You might sell a LOT of these to the G-body crew if you flow 
> test and/or real world race test and show improvement over other similar 
> competitors such as the Performer intake.

I don't doubt that the Toro intake is better than the regular factory intake, but 
I really don't see how even a slightly modified one could be better than the 
Edelbrock Performer 455 intake, which is a high rise design (semi-high rise?) 
with much more plenum volume. 

Kenneth
1971 Cutlass Supreme convertible
Phoenix, AZ

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 18:48:01 EDT
From: KS7RACING@aol.com
Subject: Conversion Utilities Web Page

Listmembers,

A friend at work sent me the link to this page, and I thought some of the 
more technically-inclined could offer a critique of it for those of us (including 
me) who can use all the help we can get:-)  It says it has all sorts of 
conversion utilities, and appears to be pretty thorough -- stop by and let us know 
what you think:

http://www.flw.com/datatools/

Take Care,
SrA Ken Snyder
Kansas City, Kansas

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 19:11:48 EDT
From: KS7RACING@aol.com
Subject: MSD Servicing Info

Listmembers,

Milton mentioned being hesitant regarding used MSD boxes -- I have what I 
feel is the best possible solution (next to giving all your broken MSD boxes to 
me <smile>):

Contact Nelson Specialties in Mooresville, North Carolina (website: 
www.nelsonspecialties.com) regarding their MSD box rebuild services.  Mr. Nelson 
Crozier rebuilds, converts and upgrades all sorts of MSD boxes (Crane ignition boxes 
as well) in addition to building wiring harnesses for most of the top NASCAR 
and ARCA teams.

When we went back east to buy the Red Bullet (1980 Starfire) we went through 
the Charlotte/Mooresville area to visit the race teams (a co-worker's son 
worked on one of them) and we went by their shop.  The level of testing they do on 
each box is unbelievable, if he says it's good, it's good.  Nelson also said 
they have found areas where they can improve the reliability of the boxes by 
using better components than MSD used originally.  Using anything but genuine 
OEM (MSD or Crane) parts in an ignition box is forbidden by NASCAR, so if you 
were going to have them upgrade your box you'd have to tell them it wasn't 
destined for any NASCAR-sanctioned events (no big deal).

The time I spent at their shop was really an eye opener!  Their upgrade 
service (converting a 6, 6A or 6AL box to 6TN or 6ALN configuration) is really 
reasonable, I intend to have them check and upgrade all the boxes I have on hand.  
In 2000 I installed a Nelson-rebuilt 6ALN box in Chelsea's RX-7 we 
autocrossed.  It's installed under the hood (heat and all), and has never given us a 
single problem.

Hope this helps, Take Care!
SrA Ken Snyder
Kansas City, Kansas

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 16:48:31 -0700
From: "Schopen, Kenneth" <kenneth.schopen@medtronic.com>
Subject: was Re: more MSD headaches; now HEI and coil information - very long

> Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 01:35:27 -0700
> From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
> Subject: Re: more MSD headaches
>
> Yes, always replace the stock coil, even a GM HEI unit. 

There was quite a discussion on one of the Olds forums (oldspower.com) a while back about ignition coils. Supposedly, the in-cap epoxy encapsulated HEI coils are notorious for suffering from delamination of the internal metal plates (which causes eddy currents and reduces efficiency) and internal shorting of the windings due to heat buildup. There was a whole list of coil manufacturers who had moved their manufacturing operations off-shore to cheaper labor markets, with a subsequent reduction in quality and reliability. Apparently even some of the previously high quality manufacturers had succumbed to the off-shore quality reduction. 

The recommendation was to remove the coil from the cap and replace it with an externally mounted oil-filled coil. 
Here's what I saved from the posts in December, 2003:

****

First and largest issue is the coil
Absolutely the wrong place for a coil, and the wrong material is in the coil. Epoxy holds heat in, not dissipates it, so...an epoxy filled coil is a heat sink, makes the core temp higher than any other common sense oil filled coil. Since heat is resistance electronically, the excess heat makes more resistance, and resistance drops plug voltages. Placing this heat pump in the top of the cap just overheats the under cap area as much as 50 extra degrees, and the coil acts like a rev limiter when hot, it is just plain common sense to remove the coil from the cap, and change its cooling system to one that works much better, oil.

As far as coils are concerned, there is virtually no difference in the output on an in-cap HEI coil when it reaches its normally overheated operating temps, one over another. As I said, heat is the issue, and the epoxy filling of in-cap HEI coils is what makes them not the way to go.

I just answered a topic about module failure on another board, person had failure after failure, and it was the single most common problem an HEI has, coil layer shorted overworking the module and making it fail. After getting a bunch of check this, change that, I suggested he change the in-cap coil, problem went away.

Now, the in-cap coils aren't the only ones with some issues, some oil filled canister types have problems as well.

The best coils are now made in Andover, Indiana, a company that has made all the performance coils previously. Here's what has occurred with that company and the companies that used to use their coils.

MSD, they couldn't get enough red Blaster II and III coils, so, in early 2000, they moved the red Blaster coil production to Mexico, a company named Pro-Bobbin. What followed and is still happening today is, the Mexico coils have deterioration of the insulating materials in the primary windings, allowing the windings to touch together, and causing the coil to change its resistance, and causes both HEI and MSD module failure, sometimes rather quickly. What has happened this year with the red coils is, the II's (MSD 8202, 8203) are still Mexico coils, the chrome ones (MSD 8200) have been, and still are Andover made, with the red III coils (MSD 8223) coming back to Andover.

Earlier this year, in March, Accel was sold, May saw the Super and Super-Stock coils moved to Taiwan. These coils now suffer a heating issue, don't kill modules, but do have different resistances to begin with, and will stop working when they reach a set heat range, then start back up again when they cool back off. These coils used to be Andover made, no longer.

There are 5 coils, all oil filled, that are Andover made and still very good, correct and useful.

NAPA Echlin IC12, black, (Do not use the IC12SB, they are Mexico made)
Crane PS20, black
MSD 8223 Blaster III, red, with HEI terminal
MSD 8200 Blaster II, chrome 
Crane PS40 chrome

I'd steer away from an Accel anything at this point, too many reports of the new stuff just not working right, as well as Mallory and especially PerTronix. I'd suggest a correctly done large cap HEI (NOT a new one from Mallory, PerTronix, Summit, Jeg's, and especially Pro-Comp, or any other house HEI dist, as most are made in China by Pro-Form and have issues you really don't want to explore), a small body HEI conversion, MSD or Crane box type systems.

****

So there you go - all you ever wanted to know about ignition coils, plus some. 

Kenneth
1971 Cutlass Supreme convertible
Phoenix, AZ

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:03:39 -0700
From: "Rick & Roxanne" <aremessenger@icehouse.net>
Subject: Re: Anti-Rust Solution Application

Ken,

Another way that will also work, is to go to Wal-Mart or Lowes and buy one
of those small poly one gallon sprayers with the plastic wand. They work
pretty good for this type of thing. And if you want to neutralize the acid
solution, go to a Janitorial supply store, or an industrial chemical supply,
and pick your self up some Potassium Carbonate in liquid form. Or just use
some baking soda. Also, while Phosphoric Acid will work fine, Hydrofluoric
Acid is faster. What ever you do, make double sure that you protect your
eyes and hands......., especially your eyes. For real stubborn rust areas,
get a quart of Sulfuric Acid. It is very hot stuff, and dangerous, use it
sparingly and with caution, it is real fast . Good Luck!
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: Anti-Rust Solution Application


> Ken,
>
> Can you remove all of the interior in the section where you need to get
the
> de-rusting fluid? If so, use a plastic pump spray bottle and a plastic
water
> squirt gun for longer reach. Spray and squirt the de-rust solution
> everywhere you need to get it. Then, flush it out with high pressure
water.
> You would have to use plastic for the spray and squirt guns, for the
de-rust
> solution would kill a metal one.
>
> Milton Schick
> 1964 442 Cutlass
> imp@theriver.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <KS7RACING@aol.com>
> To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 9:14 PM
> Subject: Anti-Rust Solution Application
>
>
> > Listmembers,
> >
> > I'm in the process of rebuilding a 1985 GMC truck that will eventually
be
> > used to haul Grace and our other race cars around (Olds content) and
need
> advice
> > on getting the trick solution posted here recently (rust converter)
> applied in
> > some hard-to-reach areas.
> >
> > This particular truck had a fire that seems to have originated behind
the
> > seat.  Someone halfheartedly "repaired" the truck, only to have it wind
up
> in a
> > friend's tow lot.  I got it for cheap ($800 for a running truck didn't
> seem too
> > bad) and have a 81 Brand C interior I'll mix-and-match for replacement
> parts.
> >  Anyway, the paint was scorched off inside the cab in the back and on
the
> > ceiling.  While I can sand and repaint the areas visible, I want to make
> darn
> > sure the areas I _don't_ see get treated so a few years down the road
I'm
> not
> > redoing the body work all over again.
> >
> > If you're familiar with this era of trucks (as well as others) there's
an
> > inner ceiling and then the outside of the cab roof.  Also, below the
rear
> window
> > there's a doubled-up piece of steel that needs treated inside as well.
> Since
> > I'm installing a headliner removing part of the inside ceiling wouldn't
> hurt
> > if needed, and I could drill some large holes in the part below the rear
> window
> > -- but how to actually get the solution inside?  Suggestions?
> >
> > Oddly enough, the areas outside the cab that are scorched are in
> relatively
> > good shape, requiring only some slight massaging, sanding, priming and
> > repainting.  A couple of small rusted areas behind the rear tires on the
> bed sides and
> > a driver's door that will be replaced and it'll be ready for a complete
> > repainting.  Then it'll get everything put back together, a replacement
> engine and
> > rebuilt 700R4, some new tires on repainted wheels and I can start
getting
> back
> > to working on Grace!
> >
> > Thanks in advance for the assistance, Take Care!
> > SrA Ken Snyder
> > Kansas City, Kansas
> >
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 17:05:08 -0700
From: "Rick & Roxanne" <aremessenger@icehouse.net>
Subject: Re: more MSD headaches

Thanks for the Advise Milt. I think I shall follow your lead and go with
MSD.
Rick Messenger
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
To: <oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 1:35 AM
Subject: Re: more MSD headaches


> > I have been watching this conversation , and I am thinking about
boosting
> my
> > ignition. I have not seen any one mention Jacobs; what is the difference
> > between MSD and Jacobs.
>
>
> I haven't heard anyone say anything negative about Jacobs. Christopher A.
> Jacobs, Ph.D., E.E., has a very good book, THE DOCTOR'S STEP-BY-STEP GUIDE
> TO OPTIMIZING YOUR IGNITION, that is excellent. The only thing I would say
> is that Jacobs Electronics may not have the manufacturing and R&D capacity
> of MSD, but that's the only downside I might see at this time.
>
> However, MSD is very versitile in what they can do. At the Univ. of
Arizona
> for our continuing NASA hybrid rocket research contract, we used a
specially
> designed MSD continuous fire ignition unit modified by MSD from a 6A
> ignition unit. It provided the continuous electrical plasma to fire our
> hybrid rocket engine. I was very impressed in the way that continuous fire
> unit worked, consistently without any malfunction.
>
>
> > Is Jacobs any good or not, they recommend replacing
> > the stock HEI coil, with one of theirs.
>
>
> Yes, always replace the stock coil, even a GM HEI unit. That way, you will
> know positively the new same brand coil will be compatible with the same
> brand of ignition module you're using.
>
> Milton Schick
> 1964 442 Cutlass
> imp@theriver.com
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 20:41:02 -0400
From: "Kurt" <wmachine@shubes.net>
Subject: RE: UNBOUNCE: '65 F-85 4-door

Okay, Daniel, I know you're just testing us.  There is no '65 F-85 Deluxe
Coupe.  With or without post.

Kurt mailto:wmachine@shubes.net
http://wmachines.shubes.net
'65 Jetstar 1 (4-speed)       '66 442 Sport Coupe (Tri-Carb, 4-speed)
'67 442 Convertible (4-speed) '69 442 Convertible (3-speed manual)
'92 Achieva SCX W-41(5-speed) '04 Expedition (no-speed)



> -----Original Message-----
> From: oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca
> [mailto:oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca]On Behalf Of Daniel Burk
> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 10:25 PM
> To: oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
> Subject: RE: UNBOUNCE: '65 F-85 4-door
>
>
> Sounds like the perfect donor car to fix up my '65 post coupe F85 Deeluxe.
> Road trip anyone?
>
>

****************************************************
This message has been scanned using Contraxx
Technology Group mail server v2.3 and is virus free.
****************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 21:01:13 -0400
From: John Livingston <johnliving@cox.net>
Subject: Re: was Re: more MSD headaches; now HEI and coil information - very long

I knew I bought that Blaster II in chrome for a good reason!

At least I did something right.

John
68 442 conv. with coil in cap unit out when the 6AL comes in

>  > Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 01:35:27 -0700
>>  From: "Infinite Space Systems, Inc." <imp@theriver.com>
>>  Subject: Re: more MSD headaches
>>
>>  Yes, always replace the stock coil, even a GM HEI unit.
>
>There was quite a discussion on one of the Olds forums 
>(oldspower.com) a while back about ignition coils. Supposedly, the 
>in-cap epoxy encapsulated HEI coils are notorious for suffering from 
>delamination of the internal metal plates (which causes eddy 
>currents and reduces efficiency) and internal shorting of the 
>windings due to heat buildup. There was a whole list of coil 
>manufacturers who had moved their manufacturing operations off-shore 
>to cheaper labor markets, with a subsequent reduction in quality and 
>reliability. Apparently even some of the previously high quality 
>manufacturers had succumbed to the off-shore quality reduction.
>
>The recommendation was to remove the coil from the cap and replace 
>it with an externally mounted oil-filled coil.
>Here's what I saved from the posts in December, 2003:
>
>****
>
>First and largest issue is the coil
>Absolutely the wrong place for a coil, and the wrong material is in 
>the coil. Epoxy holds heat in, not dissipates it, so...an epoxy 
>filled coil is a heat sink, makes the core temp higher than any 
>other common sense oil filled coil. Since heat is resistance 
>electronically, the excess heat makes more resistance, and 
>resistance drops plug voltages. Placing this heat pump in the top of 
>the cap just overheats the under cap area as much as 50 extra 
>degrees, and the coil acts like a rev limiter when hot, it is just 
>plain common sense to remove the coil from the cap, and change its 
>cooling system to one that works much better, oil.
>
>As far as coils are concerned, there is virtually no difference in 
>the output on an in-cap HEI coil when it reaches its normally 
>overheated operating temps, one over another. As I said, heat is the 
>issue, and the epoxy filling of in-cap HEI coils is what makes them 
>not the way to go.
>
>I just answered a topic about module failure on another board, 
>person had failure after failure, and it was the single most common 
>problem an HEI has, coil layer shorted overworking the module and 
>making it fail. After getting a bunch of check this, change that, I 
>suggested he change the in-cap coil, problem went away.
>
>Now, the in-cap coils aren't the only ones with some issues, some 
>oil filled canister types have problems as well.
>
>The best coils are now made in Andover, Indiana, a company that has 
>made all the performance coils previously. Here's what has occurred 
>with that company and the companies that used to use their coils.
>
>MSD, they couldn't get enough red Blaster II and III coils, so, in 
>early 2000, they moved the red Blaster coil production to Mexico, a 
>company named Pro-Bobbin. What followed and is still happening today 
>is, the Mexico coils have deterioration of the insulating materials 
>in the primary windings, allowing the windings to touch together, 
>and causing the coil to change its resistance, and causes both HEI 
>and MSD module failure, sometimes rather quickly. What has happened 
>this year with the red coils is, the II's (MSD 8202, 8203) are still 
>Mexico coils, the chrome ones (MSD 8200) have been, and still are 
>Andover made, with the red III coils (MSD 8223) coming back to 
>Andover.
>
>Earlier this year, in March, Accel was sold, May saw the Super and 
>Super-Stock coils moved to Taiwan. These coils now suffer a heating 
>issue, don't kill modules, but do have different resistances to 
>begin with, and will stop working when they reach a set heat range, 
>then start back up again when they cool back off. These coils used 
>to be Andover made, no longer.
>
>There are 5 coils, all oil filled, that are Andover made and still 
>very good, correct and useful.
>
>NAPA Echlin IC12, black, (Do not use the IC12SB, they are Mexico made)
>Crane PS20, black
>MSD 8223 Blaster III, red, with HEI terminal
>MSD 8200 Blaster II, chrome
>Crane PS40 chrome
>
>I'd steer away from an Accel anything at this point, too many 
>reports of the new stuff just not working right, as well as Mallory 
>and especially PerTronix. I'd suggest a correctly done large cap HEI 
>(NOT a new one from Mallory, PerTronix, Summit, Jeg's, and 
>especially Pro-Comp, or any other house HEI dist, as most are made 
>in China by Pro-Form and have issues you really don't want to 
>explore), a small body HEI conversion, MSD or Crane box type systems.
>
>****
>
>So there you go - all you ever wanted to know about ignition coils, plus some.
>
>Kenneth
>1971 Cutlass Supreme convertible
>Phoenix, AZ

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #5058
*********************************
