To:	oldsmobile-digest @ chebucto.ns.ca @ INTERNET
cc:	 
Subject:	oldsmobile-digest V1 #629


oldsmobile-digest         Thursday, 24 April 1997      Volume 01 : Number 629

RE: Leaded gas question
Re: Prepare to be amazed! (was: 81 cutlass & katananame/rambling)
RE: Baldwin/Motion Oldsmobiles
Re: Cutlass/Toro/misc
Re: AOL4FREE
Re: Exhaust Tips
Re: I know I shoulda paid attention but....
Re: 68 wheel color???
Re: Cruise control is toast. . .
Re: '67 88 window gasket
Re: Suspension on a 69 Cutlass
Re: Factory HP ratings (was: Toropony?)
Re: I need help identifying a 455 block.
Re: Diff gears rationale
Re: Cruise control is toast. . .
Re: Cutlass/Toro/misc
Re: Baldwin/Motion Oldsmobiles
WTB:  56 Olds Fiesta Spinners
Re: "NE Olds events" and "Winter...is...Over!!"
Re: INTAKE PARTª'S
Speedo Broque
Re: Cutlass/Toro/misc
Re: Baldwin/Motion Oldsmobiles
Re: I need help identifying a 455 block.
Re: Cutlass/Toro/misc
Re: Ft. Wheel Speedo Drive
Re: Diff gears rationale
Re: Baldwin/Motion Oldsmobiles
Re: I know I shoulda paid attention but....
Re: Diff gears rationale
72 Toro 455 build up ?'s
Re: Prepare to be amazed! (was: 81 cutlass & katana name/rambling)
Re: Prepare to be amazed! (was: 81 cutlass & katananame/rambling)
Re: I need help identifying a 455 block.
Re: 72 Toro 455 build up ?'s
Re: Prepare to be amazed! (was: 81 cutlass & katananame/rambling)
Re:
Re: Toro Parts Possibility
Re: Palm Springs Weekend
Re: Diff gears rationale
Original Plates
Repro Trim rings
Re: Diff gears rationale
Question
Re: Cutlass/Toro/misc
Re: Cutlass/Toro/misc
Carburator Rebuild Question!
Open Air Filter Element Question
Re: Question
Re: Toro Parts Possibility

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Aaron R. Weimer" <aweimer@ameritech.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:55:04 -0300
Subject: RE: Leaded gas question

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC5020.8C692D90
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



- -----Original Message-----
From:Steve Bento [SMTP:steveb@thecia.net]
Sent:Wednesday, April 23, 1997 2:05 AM
To:oldsmobile@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject:Re: Leaded gas question



- ----------
> At 09:17 PM 4/21/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >BTW, do they still have leaded gas in the USA (when did they quit, if
not)
>
> While most states dropped leaded gas about 8 years ago, some hung on until
> just last year or so. In the next town over however, there is a station
with
> two pumps of Cam2 racing gas: 100 octane unleaded, or 120 octane leaded.
> Both are $4.00/gallon. I think I'll go hang out there on a Sat. night and
> see who's buying that stuff...
> _______________________________________________________
> Dr. Robert Barry  MailTo:RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu
> Theology Dept, Providence College, Providence, RI 02918
>
>
>

They sell leaded racing gas hear in Ann Arbor Michigan.  115 Oct. Turbo Blue,
100% NHRA Approved racing gas, NO Additives.

Aaron

1972 442 W30

I run it as much as the pocket book can aford, at $2.99 a gallon



- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC5020.8C692D90
Content-Type: application/ms-tnef
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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=

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC5020.8C692D90--

------------------------------

From: "jones" <jones@morgan.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:50:37 -0300
Subject: Re: Prepare to be amazed! (was: 81 cutlass & katananame/rambling)

> Hmmmm, not all that impressive; do you mean _500_ hp? If that's the case,
> I'd *hope* he doesn't get too much traction from the rear tire; it's be
hard
> to keep the front tire down, I'd imagine. One quick twist of the wrist,
and
> the bike would do one heck of an imitation of a 500lb mousetrap! (THWAP!)

How about 100 h/p per cubic inch? thats what a modern top fuel car makes.
Of course it uses 10 or so gallons of nitro to make 1/4 mile and requires
rebuilding every pass. But what a rush.
Walter

------------------------------

From: "Laurence Simpson" <LaurenceSimpson@msn.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:57:38 -0300
Subject: RE: Baldwin/Motion Oldsmobiles

Motion Performance was/is a speed shop which first opened for business in the
early 60's on Sunrise Highway in Baldwin, Long Island, New York.  It's owner
was Joel 'Motion' Rosen.  I first met Joel around 1962 - 63 when he was into
drag racing Corvettes at Westhampton Drag Strip on Long Island.  In the later
60's besides running a tune up facility/speed shop, he began to market hop up
kits (ie phase I, phase II, etc) mostly for Chevy motors.  This then evolved
into rebuilding whole cars, the most famous of which was the Motion Camaro.
Motion heavily advertised in the drag race media of the day, and had quite a
large following for his merchandise.  Besides motor parts, I believe they also
 sold fiberglass parts for Corvettes and Camaros.  The nearest Oldsmobile
dealer to Baldwin was in Hempstead, Long Island, and was known as Mack
Markowitz Oldsmobile.  Motion was into modifying practically anything that
could go fast and had a motor.  He had Bill Mitchell run part of the Motion
facility to hop up Volkswagen Bug's (which held the National Record in NHRA),
and won many class and eliminator wins).  Mitchell is still on Long Island,
and runs his own racing facility, selling parts, building motors, and race
cars.  I have even seen a Motion 1969 Hurst/Olds, which was up for sale and
purchased about a year ago.  Joel Rosen was quite prolific, and a pioneer in
the hot rod phenomenon.  Hope this information helps.

- ----------
From: oldsmobile-owner@chebucto.ns.ca on behalf of R Mullen
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 1997 4:56 PM
To: 'Page'
Subject: Baldwin/Motion Oldsmobiles

A friend gave me a copy of an early '68 CARS magazine.  There was an
article in their about Markowitz (sp?) Olds, which apparently was part
of the Baldwin/Motion outfit on Long Island.  The areticle was all about
their 1968 "Mach 1"  Baldwin/Motion W31 Cutlass.

Apparently, according to the full-page advertisement that was in the
magazine after the article, along with 427 Camaros, Motion also offered
a 455 Cutlass, the "Mach 1" W31, a "Ram-Lux" Toronado and a hopped-up
W30 442!  I have never heard of these cars and don't know how many were
made.  I would not have believed any of it if I hadn't seen the whole
thing in print.  I guess that Hurst was not the only one offering a 455
in the '68 A-body.  According to the ad, all of these cars were dyno
tuned and carried a warranty!

The article was only about the '68 W31, which was modified with milled
heads, adjustable valve train, headers, Mallory distributor and 4.33
gears.  The car was turning 12.80's with Baldwin's driver, using
4000-5000 rpm launches.  When it was tested by the magazine, the
blow-proof bell housing had been removed, so 3000-4000 rpm launches were
used.  The car was still turning 13.30's at 106 mph.  Kind of puts the
Hurst Olds to shame.  I only wish they had tested the 455 Cutlass.

Anyhow, I was delighted to learn this new fact, and wonder if anyone
else had heard of a Motion Oldsmobile?  Would it be possible to add this
article to the ones at Bryce's page?

Scott Mullen

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:05:10 -0300
Subject: Re: Cutlass/Toro/misc

James William Townsend wrote:
>
> I've never owned or driven a Toronado, but all this talk about people
> buying them and being infected with The Virus is making me feel left
> out!!  Anybody got an extra Toro you want to give away? :)

I don't know if Dave Voorhis ( Mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca ) ever
found a home for the one he was giving away -- if you don't mind
a trip to Manatoba.

    66 Toro
The /\   /\ and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:07:23 -0300
Subject: Re: AOL4FREE

At 09:32 AM 4/23/97 -0300, Steve Ochs wrote:
>Clarification on virus hoax.  Per GM release today on 4-23-97, AOL4FREE
>E-mail message is hoax just like Good Times.  AOL4FREE.COM file is Trojan
>Horse program.

E-mail messages by themselves can't cause a virus since they are not an
executable program. If you download an attachment file and execute it then
you could have virus troubles.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Jason Labay (z28cfi@gwis.com)  Akron, Ohio  F-body list since 5/95
93 Camaro Z/28: Patriot Red, A4, GU5 (3.23), PEG2
80 Oldsmobile 4-4-2 W-30:White/Gold, 5.7L, A3, showcar, 1 of 346
75 Hurst/Olds W-25: White, 5.7L, A3,project car, 1 of 1293

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:07:20 -0300
Subject: Re: Exhaust Tips

At 08:32 AM 4/23/97 -0300, MROTHE wrote:
>Timothy Carl Hietpas wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone know if the factory put exhaust tips on a 87 442?
>
>No, there is no such animal ever listed on the option sheets for exhaust
>tips.  I ordered a new 87 442 back then, and I equipped it with
>everything.  There was nothing except the dual-outlet exhausts that came
>with the W-42.  Sorry.  However, they could have been a dealer add-on
>item, since in those days, they did that a lot.

My 80 442 didn't have factory tips and it is very similar to the 85-87
442's. I had some welded on and they look great, and they look stock if you
didn't know any better. As for dealer add-on's mine got a rear spoiler added
on after it arrived at the dealer.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Jason Labay (z28cfi@gwis.com)  Akron, Ohio  F-body list since 5/95
93 Camaro Z/28: Patriot Red, A4, GU5 (3.23), PEG2
80 Oldsmobile 4-4-2 W-30:White/Gold, 5.7L, A3, showcar, 1 of 346
75 Hurst/Olds W-25: White, 5.7L, A3,project car, 1 of 1293

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:07:17 -0300
Subject: Re: I know I shoulda paid attention but....

At 08:14 AM 4/23/97 -0300, Linda Zuccaro wrote:
>
>Here's the ad, how can I verify this is a *real* one?
>
>1969 442
>Automatic with rare W30 Ram Air Hood; 12 bolt posi; solid car;
>needs very little work; runs good; $2,700 or bo
>[it's pearl green]

Price sounds great. He is taking it to the Canfield Swap Meet, right? I am
going saturday. I would ID this car very carefully, unless it is someone who
is clueless about what he has and just thinks $2,700 is fair for an old 1969
car.
>
>-soft plug is out he mentions - dontcha wonder why???

Soft plug? Is that a freeze plug type thing?
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Jason Labay (z28cfi@gwis.com)  Akron, Ohio  F-body list since 5/95
93 Camaro Z/28: Patriot Red, A4, GU5 (3.23), PEG2
80 Oldsmobile 4-4-2 W-30:White/Gold, 5.7L, A3, showcar, 1 of 346
75 Hurst/Olds W-25: White, 5.7L, A3,project car, 1 of 1293

------------------------------

From: James & Joanne Chermack <chermac@exis.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:08:05 -0300
Subject: Re: 68 wheel color???

At 10:36 PM 4/22/97 -0300, you wrote:
>On my 68, I have a set of SS II rally wheels, what color did they come
>from the factory with??   My car is jade gold with a tan vinyl top.
>

ALL 68 SSII's came a dark grey, or what some call argent. The 68 wheels
didn't have the pie shaped pieces on them. They were painted silver (about
3/16ths if an inch) around the holes. They used the same centers as later
SSII and SSIII wheels with the bolt on center cap.

Jim Chermack

------------------------------

From: Paul Hartlieb <plh@leba.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:12:35 -0300
Subject: Re: Cruise control is toast. . .

On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Tom Lentz wrote:

>      1) Where do the wires from the cruise come out at and connect under
>      the dash?  What color are they so that I can disconnect them for now,
>      in case I accidentally try to turn the cruise on again.

They've got two manuals for '83, don't know about '84.  One if referred to
as a chassis service manual, the other is referred to as an electical
troublshooting manual.

The wire coming from the "multi-function lever" on an '83 is yellow and
plugs into the fuse box in the outlet marked "IGN3".  This is located
between the wiper and stop fuses.  According to the diagram, the cruise
runs off of the A/C fuse, which would explain the lack of a cruise fuse.
There's also a green wire and a blue wire that connect to the transucer.

Let me know if you need anything else.

Paul Hartlieb
plh@leba.net
'67 Ninety Eight Holiday Coupe (Aquamarine)
'72 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (Sunfire Yellow)

------------------------------

From: Paul Hartlieb <plh@leba.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:22:44 -0300
Subject: Re: '67 88 window gasket

On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Nathan Fonder wrote:

> Two days ago, I bought a convertible 1967 Delta 88 with a 455 Super Rocket.
> When it rains and I turn a corner, water seeps in along the windshield.  I
> have access to a window gasket for a 1967 442 and a 1967 Cutlass.  Will this
> fit the Delta?

No.  '67 Full size cars don't use window gaskets.  The windshield may need
to come out and be resealed.

Paul Hartlieb
plh@leba.net
'67 Ninety Eight Holiday Coupe (Aquamarine)
'72 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (Sunfire Yellow)

------------------------------

From: Patrick Derkacz <patrickd@wwnet.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:13:21 -0300
Subject: Re: Suspension on a 69 Cutlass

Michael_Baugher@americancentury.com wrote:
>
> From: Michael Baugher on 04/23/97 03:21 PM
>
>      Hi all,
>
>       I just took my Cutlass to Midas for a front-end check.  It was riding
> a little rough.
>       I was shown bad springs (someone had put support blocks in the left
> one).
>       I was also shown the original upper ball joints, mounted with the
> original
>       rivets.  They are still good, but the rubber boots are torn, so they
> need replaced.
>       I was told that the boots aren't available by themselves and I'm sure
> those old
>       joints are ready for a replacement anyway.
>
>      My question:  Is putting on new springs, shock absorbers, and upper
> ball joints
>       a job that I should attempt to tackle on my own?  I've seen
> aftermarket ball joints
>       in Year One's catalog for about $22 each and a local parts store has
> springs for
>       a 69 cutlass with a/c and a 350, so they seem to know which springs I
> need.  They're
>       only $60 for the pair.  Midas wanted $78 per ball joint including
>       installation and another $250 or so to put in springs and shocks.
>
>      Any suggestions?
I just replaced upper and lower ball joints and bushings in the front
end.  It is not that hard if you have a reasonable set of tools and some
determination.

patrickd@wwnet.com

------------------------------

From: hanthorn <hanthorn@inwave.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:41:57 -0300
Subject: Re: Factory HP ratings (was: Toropony?)

JPADA@Orbital.COM wrote:
>
> Robert J. Barry wrote:
> >
> > The '66-'68's were all 385hp. The '69-'70's were only 375hp. Unless you're
> > talking about the '68-'70 W-34's; then they've got 400hp even.
>
> I guess putting one of those W-34 engines in a 442 would come close or
> surpass a H/O.
>
> Chris
>
>           I've noted this here before (apologies if you find this
>           redundant), but the factory HP ratings of the 60's have as
>           much credibility as Slick Willie (OK, sorry about the
>           political humor - NOT!).  Keep in mind that the 70 W-30,
>           which had a more radical cam and better flowing heads and
>           intake than the W-34, was only rated at 370 HP.  Mighty
>           suspicious until you realize that GM Corporate mandated a 10
>           pound per HP minimum limit on all cars except the Corvette.
>           The 442, to add to the conspiracy theory, had a curb weight
>           of about 3700 lbs.  Coincidence?  I think not!
>
>           In fact, it's kind of hard to believe that all the W-30
>           equipment only raised the HP of the base 442 engine by 5-10
>           HP (do you really believe that the 66 W-30 setup didn't
>           change the 360 HP rating of the L-69 tri-carb engine?).  It
>           is curious that the various year W-30 HP ratings were almost
>           always 1/10 of the curb weight of the car for that year!
>
>           And, of course, the H/O was not subject to the GM 10 pound
>           per HP limit (since it was theoretically built outside of
>           Oldsmobile), so they were allowed to advertise 390 HP in the
>           68 H/O.
>
>           Joe Padavano
>           jpada@orbital.com
>
>           66 442
>           68 W-30
>           69 H/O
>           70 W-30
If your saying the fact. specs are not correct, how many horses is my 68
442 pushin if it was advertised as a 325hp 400, how about torque??
Marty           http://hanthorn@inwave.com
68 442

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@sequent1.providence.edu>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:48:22 -0300
Subject: Re: I need help identifying a 455 block.

At 09:11 PM 4/23/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I own a 70' 442 W-30, but I can't find any identification ª's on the 455
>block anywhere. The car is a true W-30 but I don't know what the engine
>is. The only identification that I have for the engine are the head ª's.
>The heads are stamped G(A), which would be from a 72 high performance
>455.

...or low-performance 455. All '72 455's came with the "Ga" heads

>If anyone can figure out any reasons why the block does't have any
>identification ª's I would greatly appreciate it.

You mean even the casting numbers on the shelf behind the water-pump have
been ground away? I'd imagine the block would match the heads, so it would
be a low-compression '72 455. It may or may not have big valves, or a
performance camshaft. The only way to tell would be to tear it down and
measure it.

Either way, it sounds like you've lost the original engine; sorry to hear
about that :(
_______________________________________________________
Dr. Robert Barry  MailTo:RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu
Theology Dept, Providence College, Providence, RI 02918

------------------------------

From: hanthorn <hanthorn@inwave.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:54:50 -0300
Subject: Re: Diff gears rationale

Aaron R. Weimer wrote:
>
> amount of torque be better
> off with a lower gear ratio?
>
> Anxious to learn the ABC's of differential gears.
>
> Karl Aune
> 1965 Dynamic 88
> Chicago,IL
>
> Yes, as horspower/torque increase you would lower you gear.  An engine with
2000 hp and about 2000LB of torque would want to run about a 2.65:1 or even
lower.  There are many combos of rear end gears.  The only thing, don't red
line before the finish line!! > > Aaron > > 1972 442 W30 > >
--------------------------------------------------------------- > >
Part 1.2       Type: application/ms-tnef >
Encoding: base64 actually the more torque(big block) you have the higher gear
you can use and still acheive the responce of a low geared, lower torque
smallblock it all depends on the power band, if you have a built 455 that has
over 500 ft lbs at 2000 rpm high gears would work perfect if the torque
dropped from there. if you have 300 at 2000rpm and it goes up to 500 at
5000rpms due to a bigger cam or other mods. you would need lower gears to
compensate for the low tq output at low end. if you still keep high gears you
can use a smaller converter(stall) or if its a stick..better yet. but nothing
is quicker than an automatic. Marty 68 442

------------------------------

From: Matthew Mayer <mmayer@interaccess.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:59:58 -0300
Subject: Re: Cruise control is toast. . .

Tom Lentz wrote:

<snip>

>      1) Where do the wires from the cruise come out at and connect under
>      the dash?  What color are they so that I can disconnect them for now,
>      in case I accidentally try to turn the cruise on again.
Tom,
 According to my '86 manual, the CC wiring to the stalk comes to a
connector "above break pedal", the diagram is not very helpful.  But
look for a 4 wire connector.  The wire colors on the stalk side are
blue, yellow, red and green.  The blue is the power supply and should
connect to a yellow wire on the other connector that is the power feed
from the fuses block.  The Green wire stalk side is the cruise on
switch--it should connect to a gray wire on the opther connector.  The
red is the "set/coast" switch output--it should connect with a Dark blue
wire on the other connector.  The yellow wire stalk side is the
resume/accelerate output--it connects to a grey wire with a white stripe
on the other connector.   My book shows that the CC is fed from the A/C
fuse (25 amp), the same fuse also feeds the trunk release.
Hmmmm..according to the book, the CC and TR are feed from a seperate
connection marked "ign 3".  I guess your first step would be to
disconnect the stalk connector and check for shorts between any of the
wires and to ground--of course the blue power feed line should connect
to any of the other three respective wires if their switch is on.  If
you find a short you've found your culprit.
>
>      2)  What's the name of the shop manual I need?  A chassis manual?  Can
>      anyone recommend a particular source?
>
I got mine brand new from Helm, Inc. 800-782-4356 (they took over GM's
manual business from Lansing Lithographers...)  I got my chassis service
manual for $75 and my Body manual for $21 plus $5 shipping.  At one
point the electrical service manual was seperate from the Chassis manual
(as late as '82) so you might have to order these seperately, but then
your chassis manual will be only $60 or so...

HTH, let me know what you find..

- ---Matt
'86 442
mailto:mmayer@interaccess.com

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:01:26 -0300
Subject: Re: Cutlass/Toro/misc

At 08:22 PM 4/23/97 -0300, James William Townsend wrote:

>If you want a little encouragement about the American automobile and
>how it stacks up against the World, y'all should check out the latest
>Motor Trend. It features a "shootout" with many of the world's exotic
>sports cars.  Though it's not an Olds, I'm very pleased to announce that
>the Viper absolutely destroyed everything in its path! (Yes, the Corvette
>was there too)  That includes the
>very highly-revered all-wheel-drive 911 twin turbo, Ferrari F355, Supra,
>NSX, etc.
>How about a fuel-injected, BIG aluminum V10 that runs from zero
>to 170mph in 30 seconds?  Or the quarter-mile in 12.2 seconds at nearly
>120mph?

Time sounds right with a good driver...

>Too bad Dodge is the only one willing to make something like
>this.  What if Olds (or ANY American company) brought back their big V8's?
>(Modernized, of course!)  These shootouts would end up being among the
>American cars only!

I heard that Ford was thinking about putting a new version of the 429 into
some Mustang's with a very limited production run (I heard this last summer).

>The Vette did 13.2 at nearly 110mph in the 1/4, but faired poorly in the
>track-time section of the test.

That time sounds right. The LS1 is a beast. The latest issue of Chevy Craft
got this engine to out out 422 hp with only headers, no cats and an LT4
HOTcam (cam not even optimized to the LS1, it is an LT4 cam). The Vette
isn't as good a 1/4mile car as it is road course car. The driver of the car
in the road course must have been a rookie.....

>Well, hope this was a little encouraging to you all.  Just a few years ago
>it seemed an American car was doing well just to hold its own in these
>comparisons.  But, all those turboed wonder-sixes just didn't have it this
>time!

Ahh the turbo wonder sixes. 89 Turbo Trans/Am and 86-87 Grand Nationals come
to mine there. Especially the 89 T/TA which with only minor mods could run
with the Viper on the 1/4 and onthe road course with only 6cyls as compared
to 10cyls...long live the Turbo Buick V6! Ok enough non-olds...
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Jason Labay (z28cfi@gwis.com)  Akron, Ohio  F-body list since 5/95
93 Camaro Z/28: Patriot Red, A4, GU5 (3.23), PEG2
80 Oldsmobile 4-4-2 W-30:White/Gold, 5.7L, A3, showcar, 1 of 346
75 Hurst/Olds W-25: White, 5.7L, A3,project car, 1 of 1293

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:01:22 -0300
Subject: Re: Baldwin/Motion Oldsmobiles

At 05:56 PM 4/23/97 -0300, R Mullen wrote:

>The article was only about the '68 W31, which was modified with milled
>heads, adjustable valve train, headers, Mallory distributor and 4.33
>gears.  The car was turning 12.80's with Baldwin's driver, using
>4000-5000 rpm launches.  When it was tested by the magazine, the
>blow-proof bell housing had been removed, so 3000-4000 rpm launches were
>used.  The car was still turning 13.30's at 106 mph.  Kind of puts the
>Hurst Olds to shame.  I only wish they had tested the 455 Cutlass.

Uhhh according to the book Hurst Heritage the 68 H/O ran a 12.93 in bone
stock form.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Jason Labay (z28cfi@gwis.com)  Akron, Ohio  F-body list since 5/95
93 Camaro Z/28: Patriot Red, A4, GU5 (3.23), PEG2
80 Oldsmobile 4-4-2 W-30:White/Gold, 5.7L, A3, showcar, 1 of 346
75 Hurst/Olds W-25: White, 5.7L, A3,project car, 1 of 1293

------------------------------

From: idaholc@primenet.com (william goodnight)
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:07:59 -0300
Subject: WTB:  56 Olds Fiesta Spinners

Does anyone have any '56 Olds Fiesta Spinners?


Bill Goodnight
idaholc@primenet.com
Boise, Idaho

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@sequent1.providence.edu>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:05:41 -0300
Subject: Re: "NE Olds events" and "Winter...is...Over!!"

At 05:55 PM 4/23/97 -0400, Bill wrote:
>Count me in for some time before May 17.
>
>Bill Reilly
>'85 Cutlass Supreme

And then, at 10:02 PM (hmmm, an hour from now...) 4/23/97 -0400, Steve wrote:
>I would be interested, anytime after May 9 would be good for me...
>
>Steve
>71 Cutlass S 455

So, I guess some day between May 9 and May 17 would be good for people
then... That pretty much leaves Saturday, May 10th, as the best date so far.
So, perhaps a meeting at the "Huge Sub Place" next to Berejik's for lunch?

Who's up for that?
_______________________________________________________
Dr. Robert Barry  MailTo:RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu
Theology Dept, Providence College, Providence, RI 02918

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@sequent1.providence.edu>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:07:42 -0300
Subject: Re: INTAKE PARTª'S

At 07:54 PM 4/23/97 -0400, you wrote:
>ok guys, here are the part numbers for Big Block olds,
>Content-type: application/octet-stream;
>name="PARTªS~1.XLS"

>
>Attachment Converted: c:\inet\eudora\attach\PARTªS~1.XLS

OK, so what kind of file is this? Is there any way of getting an ASCII file
of this? Or perhaps something in 123 format?
_______________________________________________________
Dr. Robert Barry  MailTo:RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu
Theology Dept, Providence College, Providence, RI 02918

------------------------------

From: Mike Frederick <edison3@cpeq.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:17:51 -0300
Subject: Speedo Broque

Have a friend in England who has a '59 Olds and his speedometer has
busted.  Any recommendations on the best place to get it repaired
and/or replaced.  (No, there's not a lot of boneyards over there).

    66 Toro
The /\   /\ and Mike


- --
Michael R. Frederick, CEO           Edison3, Incorporated
     Tampa, Florida           Data Translation & Communication
     (813) 210-8649             http://www.cpeq.com/~edison3/

------------------------------

From: "Robert J. Barry" <rbarry@sequent1.providence.edu>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:13:04 -0300
Subject: Re: Cutlass/Toro/misc

At 07:22 PM 4/23/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I've never owned or driven a Toronado, but all this talk about people
>buying them and being infected with The Virus is making me feel left out!!
>Anybody got an extra Toro you want to give away? :)

Well, the '68 in my driveway is kind of an "extra" car for me right now, so
though I plan on restoring it fully, it can be bought out from under me for
cheap if you want to reverse the effects of time on this car (385hp and only
55,000 orig. miles... needs exhaust, bumper and paint).
_______________________________________________________
Dr. Robert Barry  MailTo:RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu
Theology Dept, Providence College, Providence, RI 02918

------------------------------

From: "Steve Bento" <steveb@thecia.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:22:27 -0300
Subject: Re: Baldwin/Motion Oldsmobiles

- ----------
> A friend gave me a copy of an early '68 CARS magazine.  There was an
> article in their about Markowitz (sp?) Olds, which apparently was part
> of the Baldwin/Motion outfit on Long Island.  The areticle was all about
> their 1968 "Mach 1"  Baldwin/Motion W31 Cutlass.
>
> Apparently, according to the full-page advertisement that was in the
> magazine after the article, along with 427 Camaros, Motion also offered
> a 455 Cutlass, the "Mach 1" W31, a "Ram-Lux" Toronado and a hopped-up
> W30 442!  I have never heard of these cars and don't know how many were
> made.  I would not have believed any of it if I hadn't seen the whole
> thing in print.  I guess that Hurst was not the only one offering a 455
> in the '68 A-body.  According to the ad, all of these cars were dyno
> tuned and carried a warranty!
>
> The article was only about the '68 W31, which was modified with milled
> heads, adjustable valve train, headers, Mallory distributor and 4.33
> gears.  The car was turning 12.80's with Baldwin's driver, using
> 4000-5000 rpm launches.  When it was tested by the magazine, the
> blow-proof bell housing had been removed, so 3000-4000 rpm launches were
> used.  The car was still turning 13.30's at 106 mph.  Kind of puts the
> Hurst Olds to shame.  I only wish they had tested the 455 Cutlass.
>
> Anyhow, I was delighted to learn this new fact, and wonder if anyone
> else had heard of a Motion Oldsmobile?  Would it be possible to add this
> article to the ones at Bryce's page?
>
> Scott Mullen
>
>

Interesting,

I have an article on the 69 Hurst/Olds that Motion campaigned in '69. The
car was lettered "Commotion by Motion" it ran mid 11's with its modified
455, Th400 and 5:00 gears!!!!!

This car turned up for sale in Massachusetts a few years ago and I cut the
picture out of the the Auto Trader and I was astonished to see that the car
had the identicle aftermarket wheels (with slicks and skinnys) and
lettering, either it was a damn good fake or it could have been the real
thing???? I was going to check it out but I couldn't do anything with the
19k the guy was looking for, especially since I was a still a  college
student sans money...;-)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve
71 Cutlass S 455
93 Mustang LX 5.0
e-mail: steveb@thecia.net
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: Daren@qconline.com
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:23:24 -0300
Subject: Re: I need help identifying a 455 block.

OL>At 10:11 PM 4/23/97 -0300, you wrote:
OL>>
OL>>If anyone can figure out any reasons why the block does't have any
OL>>identification ª's I would greatly appreciate it.
OL>>

OL>I'm sorry to say that removing engine IDª's is usually the work of a thief
OL>or charlatan.

OL>Ray
OL>70 Cutlass Conv.


GM Replacement block?

Daren

O.C.A. ª23571
daren@qconline.com

------------------------------

From: Kabootski@aol.com
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:22:36 -0300
Subject: Re: Cutlass/Toro/misc

Very encouraging.  But not all of us drive Vipers and Ferraris.  Except in
our dreams...

Duane

1970 Cutlass Supreme convertible (I'd take it over a Viper any day)
1989 Buick Century T-type (I'd take this one too)

------------------------------

From: Daren@qconline.com
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:30:48 -0300
Subject: Re: Ft. Wheel Speedo Drive

OL>Will post to list when task is complete. I think Daren is also attemting
OL>something like this. My intention is to see if I can not just rip the
speedo OL>cable out of a junked caddy or some such and use that. One
possibility for OL>failure; gage - wheel distance may be considerably longer
than gauge-tranny OL>distance. Will keep all inormed.

OL>Karl Aune
OL>1965 Dynamic 88
OL>Chicago, IL

OL>Better hurry up and fix it, I am getting 0 MPG! ;)

I just got a  U.S.A. Parts catalog today they've got front wheel speedo
cables.They got four different kinds two are $24.26 and two are $60.71.

U.S.A. Parts
Parts Supply Ltd.
8505 Euclid Avenue
Manassas, Va.  20111
703-335-1935

Catalog is free.

Daren

O.C.A. ª23571
daren@qconline.com

------------------------------

From: IRONMAN <jev114@email.psu.edu>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:34:54 -0300
Subject: Re: Diff gears rationale

>gears you can use a smaller converter(stall) or if its a stick..better
>yet. but nothing is quicker than an automatic.

Automatics are slushboxes, they loose entirely to much power throught the
drivetrain, and allow more slippage. one motivated driver in his stick will
easily leave the the auto at the line.

Jeff

------------------------------

From: Daren@qconline.com
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 21:43:26 -0300
Subject: Re: Baldwin/Motion Oldsmobiles

OL>At 05:56 PM 4/23/97 -0300, R Mullen wrote:

OL>>The article was only about the '68 W31, which was modified with milled
OL>>heads, adjustable valve train, headers, Mallory distributor and 4.33
OL>>gears.  The car was turning 12.80's with Baldwin's driver, using
OL>>4000-5000 rpm launches.  When it was tested by the magazine, the
OL>>blow-proof bell housing had been removed, so 3000-4000 rpm launches were
OL>>used.  The car was still turning 13.30's at 106 mph.  Kind of puts the
OL>>Hurst Olds to shame.  I only wish they had tested the 455 Cutlass.

OL>Uhhh according to the book Hurst Heritage the 68 H/O ran a 12.93 in bone
OL>stock form.
OL>- - - - - - - - - - -
OL>Jason Labay (z28cfi@gwis.com)  Akron, Ohio  F-body list since 5/95
OL>93 Camaro Z/28: Patriot Red, A4, GU5 (3.23), PEG2
OL>80 Oldsmobile 4-4-2 W-30:White/Gold, 5.7L, A3, showcar, 1 of 346
OL>75 Hurst/Olds W-25: White, 5.7L, A3,project car, 1 of 1293

About 5-6 years ago there was a '68 H/O at Cordova drag strip running
consistent 12.8-12.9 in the 1/4 mile. I looked at the car in the pits it
appeared to be stock and the owner claimed it was stock.I've heard of
stick ram-rod and W-31 cars running mid to high 13s so with a few mods
12s should be no problem.

Daren

O.C.A. ª23571
daren@qconline.com

------------------------------

From: Kabootski@aol.com
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 23:04:26 -0300
Subject: Re: I know I shoulda paid attention but....

No, wasn't Soft Plug a Euro-pop band from the early '80s?

------------------------------

From: Dustin Cross <dcross@selway.umt.edu>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 23:11:31 -0300
Subject: Re: Diff gears rationale

On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, IRONMAN wrote:

> >gears you can use a smaller converter(stall) or if its a stick..better
> >yet. but nothing is quicker than an automatic.
>
> Automatics are slushboxes, they loose entirely to much power throught the
> drivetrain, and allow more slippage. one motivated driver in his stick will
> easily leave the the auto at the line.
>
> Jeff

"motivated" should be replaced with "good"   personally I love to drive a
4 or 5 speed (fondly remember a c*maro with Hurst competition plus
shifter, the car sucked but the 4 speed was a blast)  but overall daily
driving I do prefer and auto   out of my "fleet"  I only have 3 manuals
and they are all in my '50s ch*v pickups

------------------------------

From: Jason Labay <z28cfi@gwis.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:13:13 -0300
Subject: 72 Toro 455 build up ?'s

I am thinking of taking the 455 out of the 72 Toro I have setting in our
salvage yard to build up to put into a 72 Cutlass Supreme 350/4bbl. Now can
this block be built up for fairly cheap? Can I use the 350's factory dual
exhaust manifolds on the 455? I am looking at getting around 300-350 rear
wheel horsepower. I do not have the funds to get expensive parts, I am
looking at the el cheapo route for now. What kind of cost are we looking at
to get the 72 block built to 70-72 W-30 factory specs? Is that possible? Or
would it be cheaper to drop in a TPI 350 out of an 86 Vette (ha ha!) Just
kidding. Thanks
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Jason Labay (z28cfi@gwis.com)  Akron, Ohio  F-body list since 5/95
93 Camaro Z/28: Patriot Red, A4, GU5 (3.23), PEG2
80 Oldsmobile 4-4-2 W-30:White/Gold, 5.7L, A3, showcar, 1 of 346
75 Hurst/Olds W-25: White, 5.7L, A3,project car, 1 of 1293

------------------------------

From: CRuper1@aol.com
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:28:33 -0300
Subject: Re: Prepare to be amazed! (was: 81 cutlass & katana name/rambling)

In a message dated 97-04-23 19:22:05 EDT, you write:

<< At 12:36 PM 4/22/97 -0400, you wrote:
 > A year ago (I think, maybe two), there was a Suzuki GSX-R1100 which I
think
 >had been bored out, turbo, etc., that put out 50 rear wheel HP (remember
one
                                                ^^
 Hmmmm, not all that impressive; do you mean _500_ hp? If that's the case,
 I'd *hope* he doesn't get too much traction from the rear tire; it's be hard
 to keep the front tire down, I'd imagine. One quick twist of the wrist, and
 the bike would do one heck of an imitation of a 500lb mousetrap! (THWAP!) >>

Whoops, sorry, I missed the mis-type.  Should have read 350 HP., not 50.  At
certain points you sort of lose thing.  Obviously your launch is limited by
the length of the bike, and size of the rear tire, and the need for wheelie
bars. These bikes hold up very well during street use, suprisingly, but of
course you're not running the death out of it all the time either.  You'd
never live to see your next birthday with the type of speed addiction.

Chris Ruper

------------------------------

From: CRuper1@aol.com
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:33:20 -0300
Subject: Re: Prepare to be amazed! (was: 81 cutlass & katananame/rambling)

In a message dated 97-04-23 21:50:13 EDT, you write:

<< > Hmmmm, not all that impressive; do you mean _500_ hp? If that's the
case,
 > I'd *hope* he doesn't get too much traction from the rear tire; it's be
 hard
 > to keep the front tire down, I'd imagine. One quick twist of the wrist,
 and
 > the bike would do one heck of an imitation of a 500lb mousetrap! (THWAP!)

 How about 100 h/p per cubic inch? thats what a modern top fuel car makes.
 Of course it uses 10 or so gallons of nitro to make 1/4 mile and requires
 rebuilding every pass. But what a rush.
 Walter >>

That number above is supposed to be 350 HP. not 50, or 500.  The top HP
street bike making 450 is fairly close though.  Of course these bike hold up
better than the dragster, and aren't quite so bad on gas (only sometimes
using nitro for 'em, also helps).  Then again, you aren't railing the things
constantly like a dragster would, although I would suspect that a few pulls
on the dyno isn't easy either.

Chris Ruper

------------------------------

From: theogns <theogns@avana.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 22:57:22 -0300
Subject: Re: I need help identifying a 455 block.

If anyone can figure out any reasons why the block does't have any
> identification ª's I would greatly appreciate it.

There are two main reasons that the ID ªs would be gone. (assuming you
are speaking of serial ªs). One is that the block has been "decked".
This is where a machine shop takes a few thousandths off the top of the
cylinders. Usually wiping out the number pad. Second, the block may have
been replaced as a service or under warranty in which there would be no
serial numbers.

Danny

------------------------------

From: theogns <theogns@avana.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 23:12:27 -0300
Subject: Re: 72 Toro 455 build up ?'s

Jason Labay wrote:
>
> I am thinking of taking the 455 out of the 72 Toro I have setting in our
> salvage yard to build up to put into a 72 Cutlass Supreme 350/4bbl. Now can
> this block be built up for fairly cheap? Can I use the 350's factory dual
> exhaust manifolds on the 455? I am looking at getting around 300-350 rear
> wheel horsepower. I do not have the funds to get expensive parts, I am
> looking at the el cheapo route for now. What kind of cost are we looking at
> to get the 72 block built to 70-72 W-30 factory specs? Is that possible? Or
> would it be cheaper to drop in a TPI 350 out of an 86 V*tte (ha ha!) Just
> kidding. Thanks

Here is what I've found that works together. Block bored .060 with TRW
or similar forged pistons 10.5:1 comp. Cam selection depends on your
gear ratio. Factory specs and gear ratios go something like:
365hp (442)3.23 - 3.42
390hp (H/O)3.42 - 3.90
370hp (W-30)3.73 - 4.10
For heads I would use C castings or if you can find them K cast.
Danny

------------------------------

From: "jones" <jones@morgan.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:16:05 -0300
Subject: Re: Prepare to be amazed! (was: 81 cutlass & katananame/rambling)

>
>  How about 100 h/p per cubic inch? thats what a modern top fuel car
makes.
>  Of course it uses 10 or so gallons of nitro to make 1/4 mile and
requires
>  rebuilding every pass. But what a rush.
>  Walter >>
I messed up too that was suposed to be 10 HP not 100. Wow wouldnt a 50,000
HP Dragster be wild.
Walter

------------------------------

From: Lloyd Culp <bculp@hiwaay.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 19:11:54 -0300
Subject: Re:

gcooke@equitable.ca wrote:
>
> Hi:
>
> I just bought a '61 Olds F-85 with 58K miles, and am having a few problems -
> and a hoot! (limited knowledge of cars here!).
>
> It is smoking what appears to be oil (white smoke) out of both the tailpipe
and > the oil fill cap - it definitely gets worse the warmer the engine is. >
If it is rings, I was thinking it may be better for me to drop in a new
engine. > It currently has a 215 V8 aluminum block.  Someone suggested an Olds
350 might > bolt right up - any ideas if this is the way I should go, and if
so, what > engine I should be looking for?  Something a bit more common than
the 215 would > be ideal. > > Thanks! > > Glenn - Kitchener, Ont.

Glenn,

White smoke may indicate water getting into the combustion chambers or
even in the oil.  Check the dip stick & oil filler cap for a white foamy
substance which is water miixed w/oil.

I have a 215 Jetfire & have had it since 1976.  I understand that
cooling system problems are common on these although I have never had a
problem.  The early aluminum engines were sometimes run w/only water &
no antifreeze.  Corrosion would result & even severe wasting of water
passages in the block & heads could even destroy an engine.

A likely cuprit is a head gasket.  Try a compression check.  Also
finding bubbles in the radiator w/the cap off is an indication of a leak
into the combustion chamber.

These are fine engines in themselves.  They are not impossible to find &
the cost isn't extravagant - not more then a 350.  I don't believe that
a 350 will just bolt in at all.  Engine bay space is at a premium.  You
will need a complete drive line to do this.

Another problem is weight.  An aluminum 215 engine weighs around 300 lbs
while an iron  350 weighs around 650 lbs.  W/the softly sprung little
Cutlasses, you will notice severe front end weight problems w/this swap
unless you convert the whole front suspension.

The only answer that I could think might work is the use of the Buick V6
if you don't like the aluminum V8.  That engine is a direct relative of
the 215 & has some possibilities as to interchange & weight problems.

Bill Culp
Decatur, Alabama

------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:20:40 -0300
Subject: Re: Toro Parts Possibility

Chris - are there any parts off the possible '66 parts Toro that might be
available for a poor needy Toro owner (poor and needy now that I bought
it)?  I need the horn center, driver side mirror & pass front wheel well
molding.

Appreciate any and all assistance.


Lisa Madsen

Heavy Metal Forever - '66 Toronado, '67 Delta 88 Custom , '72 Vista Cruiser
, '72 Vista Cruiser project

Please E-Mail me at-----:  Lisa@hotglass.com

My Web-Page-----:  http://exo.com/~jht/olds/

------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:27:58 -0300
Subject: Re: Palm Springs Weekend

I'm a So Cal Olds owner - and to think my dear sister - the Palm Springs
resident, has never mentioned this car gathering.  Not to mention her
husband undoubtedly drug out his Chevelle for it.  Grrrrrrrr.

I was working on the Toro - so far we have only found ONE item on the motor
that was more then finger tight (everything leaks).  Pretty amazing - and
another good show on how Olds are so overwhelmingly reliable overall.

Anyway, my orig. Olds was a '67 CS convert, sniff sniff, the one I should
never have sold.  Oh well.  Glad you got your baby back together enough to
get her home.

Is this held the same time every year?  We will definitely have to check it
out next time.


Lisa Madsen

Heavy Metal Forever - '66 Toronado, '67 Delta 88 Custom , '72 Vista Cruiser
, '72 Vista Cruiser project

Please E-Mail me at-----:  Lisa@hotglass.com

My Web-Page-----:  http://exo.com/~jht/olds/

------------------------------

From: hanthorn <hanthorn@inwave.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:37:48 -0300
Subject: Re: Diff gears rationale

IRONMAN wrote:
>
> >gears you can use a smaller converter(stall) or if its a stick..better
> >yet. but nothing is quicker than an automatic.
>
> Automatics are slushboxes, they loose entirely to much power throught the
> drivetrain, and allow more slippage. one motivated driver in his stick will
> easily leave the the auto at the line.
>
> Jeff
Anytime!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Marty
68 442

------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:50:04 -0300
Subject: Original Plates

I went and transferred the Toro's registration today at the Calif. DMV.
When the previous owner did this, since the car hadn't been registered in
5-8 years. it was out of the system, so they issued it new plate numbers.
He took the damn car to the DMV when he did this with the original black
and gold plates and they - without saying a word - didn't ASK him if he
wanted to reinstate the orig. plates (he didn't know better).  Now they
won't reinstate these plates for me (they've never left the car in 31 yrs)
because I don't have a piece of DMV paperwork showing these plates orig.
went to the car.  I argued that they (the DMV) TOOK that same paperwork
from the prev. owner when he transferred it into his name!!  Why are these
plates purged completely from the system?  It baffles me that they don't
have an archive system of some kind to cross reference these old plate
numbers to match to cars for this very purpose, especially given the
popularity of keeping the black and gold plates.

Oh try explaining this to a bimbo with 4 1/2 inch fingernails who probably
wouldn't know a car if it bit her in the a**.

Anyway - I'm just venting - I can 'petition' the DMV to reinstate them and
you bet I will.  What infuriates me though is people do SELL these old
black and gold plates and people take them down with the cars to the DMV
and get them REINSTATED!!!  I guess the bimbo didn't wait on them....

Fuming -

Lisa Madsen

Heavy Metal Forever - '66 Toronado, '67 Delta 88 Custom , '72 Vista Cruiser
, '72 Vista Cruiser project

Please E-Mail me at-----:  Lisa@hotglass.com

My Web-Page-----:  http://exo.com/~jht/olds/

------------------------------

From: James Thingwold <jht@exo.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:42:01 -0300
Subject: Repro Trim rings

A little too quick on the delete again - didn't keep the message about the
Toro-ite who was tempted by after market trim rings.  Who produces those?
I have 2 of 4 and will need to replace 2 (that is if the two I have are
still working) and if there is a better design I'm gonna be a weenie and go
after market (apologies to anyone who thinks thats a bad word).

Please let me know if you have a name/place/etc. for these.

Thanks -

Lisa Madsen

Heavy Metal Forever - '66 Toronado, '67 Delta 88 Custom , '72 Vista Cruiser
, '72 Vista Cruiser project

Please E-Mail me at-----:  Lisa@hotglass.com

My Web-Page-----:  http://exo.com/~jht/olds/

------------------------------

From: IRONMAN <jev114@email.psu.edu>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 01:50:58 -0300
Subject: Re: Diff gears rationale

At 01:37 AM 4/24/97 -0300, you wrote:
>IRONMAN wrote:
>>
>> >gears you can use a smaller converter(stall) or if its a stick..better
>> >yet. but nothing is quicker than an automatic.
>>
>> Automatics are slushboxes, they loose entirely to much power throught the
>> drivetrain, and allow more slippage. one motivated driver in his stick will
>> easily leave the the auto at the line.
>>
>> Jeff
>Anytime!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>Marty
>68 442

Now there's a man proud of his slushbox.
Ignorance is Bliss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

------------------------------

From: Cougerxxx@aol.com
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 02:59:21 -0300
Subject: Question

Dear sir I was wondering if i could specify my mail to receive only mail from
members with 442's?

------------------------------

From: Charley Buehner <buehner@cis.nmclites.edu>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 03:24:53 -0300
Subject: Re: Cutlass/Toro/misc

At 12:05 AM 4/24/97 -0300, you wrote:
>James William Townsend wrote:
>>
>> I've never owned or driven a Toronado, but all this talk about people
>> buying them and being infected with The Virus is making me feel left
>> out!!  Anybody got an extra Toro you want to give away? :)
>
>I don't know if Dave Voorhis ( Mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca ) ever
>found a home for the one he was giving away -- if you don't mind
>a trip to Manatoba.
>
>    66 Toro
>The /\   /\ and Mike
>
>
Uh, Mike, ~don't~ tell me that kind of stuff!  After all, Manitoba really
isn't all ~that~ far away...  :)   BTW, anyone remember what year his was?

             Charley Buehner       | mailto:buehner@cis.nmclites.edu
             500 4th Ave.          | mailto:charley@rocketship.com
             Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
             Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
             "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass ~Dead 425~
             "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
     "FAST FWD" (Soon)   | '67 Toronado 425
                    Real Cars ~Don't~ Wear Bowties!

------------------------------

From: Charley Buehner <buehner@cis.nmclites.edu>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 03:24:58 -0300
Subject: Re: Cutlass/Toro/misc

At 10:22 PM 4/23/97 -0300, you wrote:
>Very encouraging.  But not all of us drive Vipers and Ferraris.  Except in
>our dreams...
>
No, no, no...  In ~my~ dreams, I'm kicking butt against Vipers and Ferraris
:)  In reality, however, that just doesn't happen, because there ~are~ no
Vipers or Ferraris around here, so I just have to kick but against fords!
:)  (Ok, Ok, I just ~smoke~ by them right now, but I ~will~ have a running
Olds again, soon!  :)

             Charley Buehner       | mailto:buehner@cis.nmclites.edu
             500 4th Ave.          | mailto:charley@rocketship.com
             Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
             Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
             "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass ~Dead 425~
             "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
     "FAST FWD" (Soon)   | '67 Toronado 425
                    Real Cars ~Don't~ Wear Bowties!

------------------------------

From: "IT" <todorovb@cadvision.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 03:19:33 -0300
Subject: Carburator Rebuild Question!

I have a simple question.  Would rebuilding a carburator with a rebuild kit
from the local parts store put it in the same conditions as 'new' or
profesionally rebuilt.  What are the advantages of buying a new carburator
versus rebuilding one?  Is rebuilding a dificult job? And finally, would
installing a Edelbrock aftermarket carb (around $500) make a big difference
and in what way?  307 '81 Delta 88.  Thanks.


Igor Todorovic

1981 Delta 88 307
1995 Intrepid 3.3

------------------------------

From: "IT" <todorovb@cadvision.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 03:24:34 -0300
Subject: Open Air Filter Element Question

I was under the impresion that open end air  cleaners are supposed to
increase horespower.  I installed a open-end air elemet from Edelbrock on
my 1981 Delta 88 307 and all I got was hesitation and lousy performace.
When I press the gas, it feels like it will stall.  It is better when
warmer, but the weather has been pretty good (15 Celsius or so) and I don't
understand why.  There is no vacume leaks.  What could the problem be.

------------------------------

From: Charley Buehner <buehner@cis.nmclites.edu>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 03:58:41 -0300
Subject: Re: Question

At 02:59 AM 4/24/97 -0300, you wrote:
>Dear sir I was wondering if i could specify my mail to receive only mail from
>members with 442's?
>

Nope, sorry.  The best we can do is narrow it down to those that have
Oldsmobiles:)  Of course, there is the Toro list, but that still isn't 442...



             Charley Buehner       | mailto:buehner@cis.nmclites.edu
             500 4th Ave.          | mailto:charley@rocketship.com
             Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
             Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
             "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass ~Dead 425~
             "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
     "FAST FWD" (Soon)   | '67 Toronado 425
                    Real Cars ~Don't~ Wear Bowties!

------------------------------

From: Charley Buehner <buehner@cis.nmclites.edu>
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 03:58:36 -0300
Subject: Re: Toro Parts Possibility

At 01:20 AM 4/24/97 -0300, you wrote:
>Chris - are there any parts off the possible '66 parts Toro that might be
>available for a poor needy Toro owner (poor and needy now that I bought
>it)?  I need the horn center, driver side mirror & pass front wheel well
>molding.
>
>Appreciate any and all assistance.
>
I checked on ~my~ possible parts car, the wheel well mdg is in good shape,
but my ~new~ Toro needs one, too, so I guess that doesn't solve anything.
The "Dragster" steering wheel is ~definately~ going in the '67, and I didn't
notice the mirrors.  My '67 has cheap Kmart type chrome mirrors that look
ok, but will have to go!  It's got the pass side visor with the bit---
Oops! ~Vanity~ mirror with the "OLDSMOBILE" lettering on it.  Perfect shape.
I know ~exactly~ what visor hole is getting coverred by ~that~ piece!

One more Toro point/question.

     Nobody warned me about the carbs on these things.  Who do I have to
kill to get one!???!  I noticed tonight (after vaccuuming out the intake for
1/2 hour) that no normal carb in existance will mate up to that intake!
(Unless I grind off half of the throttle linkage:)  I stuck around 8 of em
in there and none came close.  How many years did Toros have ~that~ low of
an intake?  My '77 small block has a normal carb on it (that ~also~ wouldn't
fit on the '67:)  I've got a '73 Toro w/455 in Scobey, but that's quite a
ways away, so I can't run check it out.  What are the chances of the
throttle plates being right on that one?  Anyone have experience with
different intakes on the Toros?  I've got the stock 425's from my 98 cvt.
and I've got the Edelbrock.  I ~know~ the Edelbrock won't fit under the
hood.  As it is now, it doesn't matter cuz the hood doesn't shut right
(wrecked) but if I ever ~do~ get around to fixing it....

I could always hack a big hole in the hood, but I'd feel pretty bad if I
didn't have something ~really~ impressive sticking through it!  :)


             Charley Buehner       | mailto:buehner@cis.nmclites.edu
             500 4th Ave.          | mailto:charley@rocketship.com
             Box 1255              | Montana State University-Northern
             Havre, Montana 59501  | http://cis.nmclites.edu/~buehner
             "Rockit 1"            | '81 Olds Cutlass ~Dead 425~
             "BT UR 4D"            | '70 Buick GS 455
     "FAST FWD" (Soon)   | '67 Toronado 425
                    Real Cars ~Don't~ Wear Bowties!

------------------------------

End of oldsmobile-digest V1 ª629
********************************
