
oldsmobile-digest       Friday, August 15 1997       Volume 01 : Number 800



Happy 100th
Fusick URL
Re[2]: Pop Mech Musclecar Tests (long)
Re: Pop Mech Musclecar Tests (long)
six pack
Re: 70 442 Conv - What to do?
Re: Happy 100th
Re: 70 442 Convt.-Thanks for advice
Re: 70 442 Conv - What to do?
Re: six pack
45 Degree 425
reflections - (kinda long)
Re: 45 Degree 425
Re: reflections - (kinda long)
Re: reflections - (kinda long)
1970 442 W-30
Re: 45 Degree 425
Re: 68 OLDS 455
Signing Off For a Coupla Weeks
72 442 convertible frames
Re: O.A.I. letters painted?
Re: reflections - (kinda long)
Final list and time for Lansing
Mike's tri-deuce intake....
Re: Cars for Sale
Re: 68 OLDS 455
Re: 45 Degree 425
Lansing List - Final Copy
Tools at the meet
Re: 68 OLDS 455
Re: 68 OLDS 455
carbs
Part needed
Re: 1970 442 W-30 (kinda long)
Non-Olds: Part needed badly!
Re: Lansing list
originality plus
W-Car 1/4 mile times
Re: 72 442 (or W-30) car or shell
Re: North/South
Hello and Olds ad
Re: 72 442 convertible frames
Misc digest resp's, motor Q's, etc.
'68 Toro W34 425 motor spotted
Re: Trying to find a dealer
Chromeplating,lower costs
SAGA: Got my SX home, finally! (REAL LONG)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 15:32 EDT
From: turley@symplex.com (Mike Turley)
Subject: Happy 100th

All,

After lamenting here Tuesday about not getting my car into the 100th
festivities, and getting some offers from you all to transfer a 
registration (thanks very much); Olds Division came through for me!!

Yesterday I talked with Bob Jarboe about the kind offers I got to
buy a spot from some of you.  He laughed and said "anythings for sale,
I guess."  He didn't like the idea because they are trying their best
to park these cars by make a model.  My 66 442 would look funny in a
line of curved dashes, don't you think? :)

So he says, "Mike, if you can get me a completed registration and a check
by tomorrow, I'll find you a spot."  I drove to Lansing this morning and
took care of that.  (Got a nice look around the Centennial HQ also.)

They may not be making a car I'd buy, but they did make me happy this
morning!

See you all next Thursday.

Mike Turley
turley@symplex.com

PS.  Vacation 8/15 - 8/27 will keep me off the list.  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:31:53 +0200
From: Roland Klinger <Roland.Klinger@bonn.netsurf.de>
Subject: Fusick URL

Does somebody know a valid URL of Fusick´s?
the http://www.oldntime.com/fusick/.. doesn´t work.

Thanks, Roland Klinger, Niederkassel, Germany

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 15:56:39 -0500
From: "Padavano.Joe" <padavano.joe@Orbital.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: Pop Mech Musclecar Tests (long)

     
Where are these statistics from? What issue of Popular Mechanics?
I'd like to get a copy and read it...Seems there are several stats that 
are off....TIM.....and thanks..
     
     You probably missed the original post, which noted that this was from 
     the Nov 1985 issue.  Also, see my followup on the various opinions 
     expressed on these times.
     
     Joe Padavano
     padavano.joe@orbital.com
     
     66 442
     68 W-30
     69 H/O
     70 W-30

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:18:43 -0500
From: dhamlett@mitec.net
Subject: Re: Pop Mech Musclecar Tests (long)

>      Nope, sorry, but even the text of the article referenced that the
>      W-30 was the only car in the 13s.  As I noted, 13.9-14.0 was
>      typical for period tests of W-30s in 1970.  In my original post, 

Welp you have alot of valid points but what I know is the numbers for
the 70 STAGE 1 cause I owned one (wish I still did!, what an idiot). 
The numbers they posted for the GS were pretty close to what they ran
off the showroom floor.  That's the basis for everything I said because
I know and excepted the rest a long time ago being: the LS6 is quicker
than the GS and the Hemi is quicker than the LS6.  I also know that the
70 W-30 was just a little behind the GS.  The one I owned was bone
stock  having an impressive 510 ftlbs of torque, but about all it did
was sit and smoke the tires.  If you got off the line easy enough you
could turn  a respectible mid to high 14 with it.  There is no shame in
running 14's.  Of the top 10 that I mentioned (documented in "American
Muscle Cars" by Jim Campisano) the number 10 car (the W-30) would not
have been very far from the taillights of the number 1 car (the 68-9
Ve*te with the 427/435HP)  which should tell you how competitive they
were.  Anyway, I guess my point is the W-30 they ran for that test 20
some odd years after it rolled out of Lansing was NOT stock.  A little
better cam/lifters/rocker arms, exhaust, air cleaner, fuel/jets and
especially rear end geraing could easily achieve those numbers and not
be seen by the naked eye.  Myself or someone in my family have owned 3
of the cars listed on that "top 10" but I've been in cars with MILDY
modified small blocks that would eat any of them for lunch.  In fact, if
that test were held today (85's performance cars were a joke) you would
see the tables turned on those cars this time.
- -- 

- -----------------------------------------
      Dan Hamlett
      1966 Cutlass Convertible
      1995 Cutlass Supreme SL
      mailto:dhamlett@mitec.net
      http://www.mitec.net/~dhamlett
- -----------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:02:52 -0400
From: chrsi burge <cburge@dekalb.dc.peachnet.edu>
Subject: six pack

I know this is a long shot but does any one out there have a
1966 tri power manifold.    


thanks
chris b

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:23:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Cnvrtbl442@aol.com
Subject: Re: 70 442 Conv - What to do?

In a message dated 97-08-14 14:43:48 EDT, you write:

<<  Fernando,
 
 I believe that you will note that the criticism so far has been in the true
 spirit of criticism - honest evaluation of a circumstance without ill will.
 I have not presented my view on this modification/restoration/upgrading
 controversy as it is so personal.  I have been interested in the views of
 others & very pleased at the civility of the replies.
 
 Bill Culp   <---------"Ya gotta like this guy"!!!!!!........love it
Bill....TIM
 Decatur, Alabama
  >>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 05:06:23 -0400
From: mrhell@m1.sprynet.com
Subject: Re: Happy 100th

>So he says, "Mike, if you can get me a completed registration and a check
>by tomorrow, I'll find you a spot."

Uh oh!  When I talked to Bob about a month ago, he said that if you show 
up, they'll find a spot for your car.  He mailed me the registration 
paperwork, but I waiting because of other pending circumstances.

Oh well, I'm still taking my car.  At least I'll join in the 38 mile 
cruise friday morning.  I expect to have fun no matter where I park.

See you in Lansing, one more week!

RC Hellebuyck
1971 4-4-2 covt.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 05:12:19 -0400
From: mrhell@m1.sprynet.com
Subject: Re: 70 442 Convt.-Thanks for advice

Good for you!  I love to find "deals".  I definitely think you'll get 
your moneys worth.  Hey, want to double your money almost overnight?  :)

Enjoy your new investment!

RC Hellebuyck
1971 4-4-2 covt.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:05:27 -0400
From: "Patton" <patton@ComCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: 70 442 Conv - What to do?

I once asked a collector how often he drives his (car). He said "Drive it
????
I can't think of the last time I started it!!!!!!!!!

					Food for thought,
					The General

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:08:43 -0400
From: evans1@serv01.net-link.net
Subject: Re: six pack

Hi, Chris,

Mike Rothe here on the list had a couple of postings of one he wants to sell 
here a few days ago.....sorry, I don't have his email handy.

>I know this is a long shot but does any one out there have a
>1966 tri power manifold.    
>
>
>thanks
>chris b
>
>


Mike Evans
Richland, MI
evans1@net-link.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 17:21:11 -0700
From: David McDougall <dmcdou@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: 45 Degree 425

I have a '65 Olds 88 Dynamic with the above mentioned 425 motor.  Being
new to Olds ownership, I don't have any idea if this motor is worth the
hastle and expense of rebuilding.  It's an "Ultra High Compression"
motor according to the air cleaner which is hiding a dinky two barrel
carb.  Can I bolt a 39 degree motor to the existing turbo 400?  I'm not
looking for a race car, (obviously), but do want some grunt out of this
thing.  A little help....PLEASE?!?!?!

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 19:09:53 -0400
From: mrhell@m1.sprynet.com
Subject: reflections - (kinda long)

Just thought I'd share when I "stopped & smelled the roses" the other 
day.  

How lucky people like us Olds lovers are!  It really "hit me" when I 
was riding around last Sunday.  No particular place to go, but who 
cares?  The suns out, tops down, gas tanks full, gauges look good and 
I'm in my Olds driving!

I went by some low-income apartments and this guy was sitting on one of 
those folding picnic tables, (like you see at car shows).  On the table 
were three beer bottles and an old, one speaker radio.  Don't know why, 
but that "picture" really made me think how lucky and happy I really 
am.  Here sits this guy, who doesn't even have a yard, and I go 
cruising by in my shinny "toy car".  There were about eight people 
total in front of those apartments, and every head turned as I went by!

For all I know, the guy could have $1,000,000. in the bank, but I doubt 
it.

How about this? Ever happen to anyone?

Every morning when I go to work, I open the garage door and get a whiff 
of oil, gas and a combination of vinyl protectant, wax and glass 
cleaner.  This smell enters my nose before I even lay eyes on the car. 
I always take a deep breath and enjoy it like there's a flower 
arrangement in my face! (weird huh?)

Then I step out of the house and and take a good long look at my pride 
& joy!  My car always sends me to work with a big ol' smile on my face. 
"This is why I work", I tell myself.  

They say money can't buy happiness, but some of the things money buys 
can sure make you happy!

I would like to get a Cutlass "S" in good shape to drive as a winter 
car.  This way when winter comes, I can have my cake and eat it too!


P.S.  For all you MI people, looks like it might rain for woodward!  I 
hope not!!!  See you there if it's dry. 

RC Hellbuyck
1971 4-4-2 covt.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:41:59 -0500
From: "smardale@airmail.net" <smardale@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: 45 Degree 425

At 05:21 PM 8/5/97 -0700, you wrote:
>I have a '65 Olds 88 Dynamic with the above mentioned 425 motor.  Being
>new to Olds ownership, I don't have any idea if this motor is worth the
>hastle and expense of rebuilding.  It's an "Ultra High Compression"
>motor according to the air cleaner which is hiding a dinky two barrel
>carb.  Can I bolt a 39 degree motor to the existing turbo 400?  I'm not
>looking for a race car, (obviously), but do want some grunt out of this
>thing.  A little help....PLEASE?!?!?!
>
>Dave
>
- -------------------------------------------------

Unless the engine is a complete basket case, rebuild the 425! The cam
bank angle has no bearing on an engine's performance, and rebuilding
the 425 will cost no more than any other big block.  The only thing
I strongly suggest is getting is a new intake. The 425 LOVES the
Offenhauser 360 degree dual plane, but if you have problems tracking
one of those down, Edelbrock's dual-plane is a decent second choice.

Hope this helps!

Scott Martindale
'65 442 Holiday Coupe
'65 442 Convertible

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:02:02 -0700
From: Robert and Susie Colombo <rcolombo@sonic.net>
Subject: Re: reflections - (kinda long)

mrhell@m1.sprynet.com wrote:
> 
> Just thought I'd share when I "stopped & smelled the roses" the other
> day.
> 
> How lucky people like us Olds lovers are!  It really "hit me" when I
> was riding around last Sunday.  No particular place to go, but who
> cares?  The suns out, tops down, gas tanks full, gauges look good and
> I'm in my Olds driving!
> 
> I went by some low-income apartments and this guy was sitting on one of
> those folding picnic tables, (like you see at car shows).  On the table
> were three beer bottles and an old, one speaker radio.  Don't know why,
> but that "picture" really made me think how lucky and happy I really
> am.  Here sits this guy, who doesn't even have a yard, and I go
> cruising by in my shinny "toy car".  There were about eight people
> total in front of those apartments, and every head turned as I went by!
> 
> For all I know, the guy could have $1,000,000. in the bank, but I doubt
> it.
> 
> How about this? Ever happen to anyone?
> 
> Every morning when I go to work, I open the garage door and get a whiff
> of oil, gas and a combination of vinyl protectant, wax and glass
> cleaner.  This smell enters my nose before I even lay eyes on the car.
> I always take a deep breath and enjoy it like there's a flower
> arrangement in my face! (weird huh?)
> 
> Then I step out of the house and and take a good long look at my pride
> & joy!  My car always sends me to work with a big ol' smile on my face.
> "This is why I work", I tell myself.
> 
> They say money can't buy happiness, but some of the things money buys
> can sure make you happy!
> 
> I would like to get a Cutlass "S" in good shape to drive as a winter
> car.  This way when winter comes, I can have my cake and eat it too!
> 
> P.S.  For all you MI people, looks like it might rain for woodward!  I
> hope not!!!  See you there if it's dry.
> 
> RC Hellbuyck
> 1971 4-4-2 covt.
Got any pictures of your 71' I also have a 71' hardtop and collect
pictures. Thanks in advance  Rob's 71' 442 Send to rcolombo@sonic.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:41:52 -0300 (ADT)
From: Greg Beaulieu <ab348@chebucto.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: reflections - (kinda long)

On Thu, 14 Aug 1997 mrhell@m1.sprynet.com wrote:
> I would like to get a Cutlass "S" in good shape to drive as a winter 
> car.  This way when winter comes, I can have my cake and eat it too!

I really enjoyed your narrative about why you enjoy your car. There are 
days -- typically on one of those unseasonably warm and sunny days we get 
in the late winter when it's salt-free and safe to take the car out -- 
that I feel exactly the same way. Especially when I pull up next to a 
megabucks BMW roadster or Lexus coupe and people look at my shiny '68 
instead. That makes everything worthwhile!

But I have to take issue with your idea of buying a "S" coupe to use as a 
winter car. That's exactly what I did, and before long I got it to the 
point where it killed me to drive it in the winter. It was just too nice 
because I ended up restoring it. Be careful you don't do the same!

Greg Beaulieu        ab348@chebucto.ns.ca        Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 19:38:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Klinsmann7@aol.com
Subject: 1970 442 W-30

I am looking to acquire and restore a 1970 Oldsmobile 442 W-30. Could someone
please tell me how I would go about finding my project, Also im looking for
information on what the W-30 option came with.
Thanks,
           Jamie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 18:55:15 -0700
From: David McDougall <dmcdou@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: 45 Degree 425

Scott,

	Thanks for your input.  I was actually hoping for that answer but
didn't want to prompt it.  Not htat it will ever be worth a ton of money
or anything, but it is all original at this point.

Thanks again.... Dave
> Unless the engine is a complete basket case, rebuild the 425! The cam
> bank angle has no bearing on an engine's performance, and rebuilding
> the 425 will cost no more than any other big block.  The only thing
> I strongly suggest is getting is a new intake. The 425 LOVES the
> Offenhauser 360 degree dual plane, but if you have problems tracking
> one of those down, Edelbrock's dual-plane is a decent second choice.
> 
> Hope this helps!
> 
> Scott Martindale
> '65 442 Holiday Coupe
> '65 442 Convertible

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 19:13:13 -0500
From: DKTBAT@webtv.net (doug thompson)
Subject: Re: 68 OLDS 455

Terry,
     Is Oklahoma far enough south? 

Doug..'67 4-4-2 (Bimini Blue, modified 455), '67 4-4-2 (white, original
un-restored), '67 4-4-2 Convertable, original un-restored

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:34:56 -0400
From: tchurchill@draper.com (Timothy A. Churchill)
Subject: Signing Off For a Coupla Weeks

Well folks, I'm starting my vacation tomorrow, and I won't be back
to check my mail until Sept. 2; to that end, I figure I'll sign off
so as not to cause the list to hiccup from bouncing lotsa msgs back
at Greg :)

Not that you'll be sending a lot, what with most everyone out at Lansing
next week....  enjoy the trip, you folks who are going!!

And, as they say in that song by Four Seasons,

"See you in September"



Tim Churchill
- -------------
'67 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Convertible, a.k.a. 'Big Red'
'89 Cadillac Fleetwood, a.k.a. 'Der KinderWagen'
'91 Mazda Protege, a.k.a. 'The Next Car to be Replaced'

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:22:59 +0000
From: mackk@netinc.ca
Subject: 72 442 convertible frames

Ok, I have a southern A-body frame I picked up a while ago, and I was
told it was off a 72 cutlass. If I want to build a 72 442 convertible
though, will there be problems because of the difference of frames
between hardtops and convertibles?? Are the body mount holes different
or something? Thanx for any help.

Ken

* 72 Cutlass Supreme *

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:25:31 -0400
From: Kurt Heinrich <old442@erols.com>
Subject: Re: O.A.I. letters painted?

Mike Rothe wrote:
> 
> >
> > On the top section of the OAI air cleaner assembly, (in front of the
> > "flapper"), the molded plastic has "OLDSMOBILE" on it.
> >
> > Q.  Originally, back in 1970-1972, were these letters painted white
> > from the factory?
> 
> Hmmmm.....I've seen a grunch of OAI flapper lids in my time, and only 2
> that I can remember with painted letters.  One was white, the other the
> color red of the car it was on.  I think the owners did this. 

Well, mine seems to be different than all the rest.  Mine has unpainted
letters with the small groove in the letters painted gold.  I've seen
one other like this (on a '70).

- -- 
Kurt Heinrich  (mailto:old442@erols.com)
71 442         (see it at http://www.442.com/heinrich.html)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:19:43 -0400
From: mrhell@m1.sprynet.com
Subject: Re: reflections - (kinda long)

>Got any pictures of your 71' I also have a 71' hardtop and collect
pictures. Thanks in advance  Rob's 71' 442 Send to rcolombo@sonic.net>


Yes!  Lots of pictures, but none scanned in yet.  I will be glad to send 
you some when ready.  :)

RC Hellebuyck
1971 4-4-2 covt.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:54:40 -0400
From: "Lewman" <lewman@mindpulse.com>
Subject: Final list and time for Lansing

Could someone please post a final copy of the Lansing list and time top
meet?

Thanks,
Bill Pritchett

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:53:39 -0400
From: Dave Ward <ward@ptbo.igs.net>
Subject: Mike's tri-deuce intake....

Hi Chris,

There was a dicussion about a tri-deuce intake  for a 66 442 just a few
days ago.  I believe it was Mike Rothe that had it.  Here's the address:

mailto:MROTHE@prodigy.net

Glad to help,

S. Dave Ward


'78 Delta 88 (350 4bbl.)
'85 Delta 88 (307 4bbl.)
'91 GMC Sierra 4x4 (305 TBI)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:56:56 GMT
From: Robert Barry <RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu>
Subject: Re: Cars for Sale

>Classifieds2000 sent the following:
<snip>
>and Dr. Bob may want to check this one out:
>1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass, 74K miles, $6,000, Providence, Rhode Island
>Day: (401) 421-1312  Mail: thezorks@webtv.net

Uh, not right now, but if anyone did have an interest in a gorgeous '68, I
could take a look at this one for you. I've never heard of it before, but
for that price, I'm assuming it's nearly perfect.
_______________________________________________________
Dr. Robert Barry  MailTo:RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu
Theology Dept, Providence College, Providence, RI 02918

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:57:03 GMT
From: Robert Barry <RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu>
Subject: Re: 68 OLDS 455

>Ok list lets see what ya'll know about 455's. I have one in my car and
>also have another one and I really don't know squat about them. I would
>like to know where and what the numbers on the blocks and heads mean. If
>anyone can help and I am sure by the class of this list that someone can
>I would really appreciate it.   thanks Terry.

Tell us what numbers and letters you see, and we'll tell you what they are.
The most visible identification is the letter cast into the lower-left
corner of the cylinder head, down to the left of the #1 and #8 sparkplugs.
Your '68 should have the large letter "C" cast there. What does your other
455 have there?

Of course, most of these things can be found in the FAQ as well, in addition
to the Mondello Tech Guide and the Year One catalog, if you can get your
hands on any of those. Just beware of errors or inconsistencies in those lists.

>BTW is there anyone in the southern states like NC? It would seem that
>most of you are northern.

Oh, I'm sorry, didn't anyone tell you? When Greg closed the list, he closed
it to spammers and southerners as well. I had to fight to stay on the list,
because he considered Rhode Island to be "south" (which it is, I suppose, if
you're in Nova Scotia...).

OK, ok, I must be getting tired...   ;)
_______________________________________________________
Dr. Robert Barry  MailTo:RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu
Theology Dept, Providence College, Providence, RI 02918

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:24:20 -0500
From: "Daren & Laurie Hendley" <daren@revealed.net>
Subject: Re: 45 Degree 425

> I have a '65 Olds 88 Dynamic with the above mentioned 425 motor.  
> Dave

I'll start by telling you it has 310 hp and 450 lb-ft. of torque. A 4 bbl.
duel exhaust will wake this engine up. A cam and around 3.55 rear gear
should get you moving pretty good. My '65 Dynamic with basically no options
and less the a quarter tank of gas weighs a little over 4100 lbs. so you'll
want to set it up to get a lot of low to mid range torque. PST has the most
complete rebuild kits that I've seen anywhere. The last time I check a 425
kit was $525 which is a good price considering everything you get. I
haven't used an engine kit from them but I did get my suspension kit from
them. You my have to look around a little for a 45 degree cam but they are
out there (PST, Mondello have them). Actually that 2 bbl. flows about
460-480 cfm. Which isn't all that bad. If you have any more questions ask
away. 

www.p-s-t.com

Daren

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:21:55 -0400
From: Cliff McFarlane <mcfrlan@bconnex.net>
Subject: Lansing List - Final Copy

Here is the final copy of the Lansing list. I hope that everyone is on
the list now. I guess I'll see you all in Lansing.

Cliff McFarlane, 
fleet includes: 62 Starfire(parts), 62 Starfire conv(being restored), 62
98(parts), 63 Starfire conv(going to make into trailer), 63 Super
88(parts), 63 Starfire(restored) 63 Starfire(future resto project), 57
Ford Failane 500 conv(restored) 
 _______________________________________________________________________
  NAME                 HOTEL               DATE      
CAR                 ====                 =====               ====      
===
Adams, Tom           Kellogg Center       8/21-24   66 Delta conv
Allen, Joseph        Cottenwood CG        8/20-24   57 88 J/2 conv
Beaulieu, Greg       Hampton Inn          8/18-23   none
Bicker, Steve        Quailty Suites       8/19-24   67 442
Blankenship, Mike    Red Roof Inn         8/20-24   none
Bradley, Terry&Barb  Regent Inn           8/20-24   71Cutlass 70W-30
Brown, David         Best Western-Midway  8/19-24   77 Delta 88
Chermack, Jim        Marriot East         8/18-25   67 442 W-30
Cornea, Mark         Clubhouse Inn        8/19-24   70 442 W-30
Cremean, Matt        Blissfiend, MI       8/21      73 Cutlass S
Easton, Jeff         Fairfield Okemos     8/20-22   70 442
Forsee, Ron          Hampton Inn          8/20-24   65 442
Gillespie, Mick      Battle Creek Inn     8/21-23   69 Cutlass conv
Glista, Nikki        Holiday Inn West     8/19-24   68 Cutlass conv
Glista, Richard      Holiday Inn West     8/19-24   68 442
Gulino, Dan          Sleep Inn            8/20-24   75 Delta 88 conv
Hall, Mike           Holiday Inn West     8/21-24   72 Cutlass S
Handren, Bob&Cheryl  Cottenwood CG        8/20-24   67 442 W-30
Harkema, Doug        Holt, MI             all       70 Supreme conv
Hartlieb, Paul       Marriot East         8/19-23   67 98
Hendley, Daren       Ramada               8/20-24   none
Hirtle, Don          Hampton              8/18-23   none
Hoopingarner, Kevin  Cottonwood CG        8/19-24   none
Horton, Everett      Sheraton             8/19-23   61 Starfire conv
Horton, Gordon       Sheraton             8/19-23   71 Supreme conv
Johnson, Ernie       Ramada               8/20-24   67 442
Kitchner, Doug       Holiday Inn West     8/19-24   70 Supreme conv
Kobinsky, Jeff&Patti Days Inn             8/20-22   86 98
Lamb, Aaron          Clubhouse Inn        8/20-23   72 Cutlass
Loban, John          Clubhouse Inn        8/20-24   63 Starfire conv
McFarlane, Cliff     Holiday Inn West     8/19-24   63 Starfire
McKeague, Jim        Holiday Inn South    8/20-23   70 Cutlass W-31
Melen, Ulyess        Clubhouse Inn        8/20-23   71 Cutlass S
Morris, Todd         Fairfield Okemos     8/20-24   71 442
Nicholson, Brad      Best Western         8/19-24   94 LSS
O'Connor, Peg        Holiday Inn West     8/19-24   none
Penny, Steve         Hampton              8/18-23   none
Prince, Mark         Clubhouse Inn        8/19-24   72 442 W-30
Prince, Michael      Clubhouse Inn        8/20-23   70 Cutlass S
Pritchett, Bill      Radisson             8/20-23   61 98
Richmond, John       FairField Inn West   8/22-23   72 442
Roberts, Rick        Clubhouse Inn        8/22      72 H/O
Ruper, Chris         Best Western-Midway  8/19-24   none
Senko, Drew          Sheraton             8/20-23   71 Supreme conv
Schinkel, Rob        Red Roof Inn         8/21-22   none
Smetana, Chris       BW Govenors          8/20-24   possibly a 72 S
Smith, Brian         Hampton              8/18-23   none
Smith, Bryce         Days Inn             8/18-23   none
Soball, Dave         Motel 6 Central      8/20-24   55 98
Stewart, Sandy       Hampton              8/18-23   none
Thomas, Robert       Clubhoue Inn         8/22      69 442 W-32
Thompson, Doug       Regent Inn           8/20      67 442
Westlake, Steve      Holiday Inn West     8/19-24   63 98
Williams, Dan        Hampton Inn          8/20-24   68 442 conv
Williams, Danny      Red Roof Inn         8/20-24   none
Wilson, Jim          none                 8/19-24   64 Starfire
Wyatt, Dave          BW Govenors          8/20-24   70 442
_______________________________________________________________________
 
LIST TOTAL = 57 People

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:47:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Subject: Tools at the meet

In case anybody needs to borrow tools whilst here at the Big Meet, I have a
basic collection, jack, ramps, torches, some special tools, etc.

Obviously can't lend to everyone at once, but for an emergency I could be
called upon.

- --
Chris  B. Witt
*the* Rocket Scientist, fleet includes '68 Toro, 442, and 442...
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:46:24 -0400
From: "Terry E Teague" <dawgs@conninc.com>
Subject: Re: 68 OLDS 455

thanks Barry I have found the letter C on both of my engines. I also
have checked out the faq and figured out what they mean. Thanks to all
who helped

Terry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:48:38 -0400
From: "Terry E Teague" <dawgs@conninc.com>
Subject: Re: 68 OLDS 455

sure I think it is about the same latitude as NC or maybe lower!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:51:01 -0400
From: "Terry E Teague" <dawgs@conninc.com>
Subject: carbs

Hi again with another question....can anyone tell me what the cfm of a
Quadrajet 4 barrel carb for a 455 is?  Or what else do you need to know?

Terry 
Teague
68  Delta Custom

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:50:34 -0400
From: Toby Blom <megabike@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Part needed

Hello everybody, and thank you all for the valuable information posted
here. I'm the proud owner of a 67 F85, and need some parts. I'm looking
for the following: windshield washer fluid pump, original clock, floor
consol. If anybody got stuff like that for sale, I can be reached
directly at: Bergenser3@aol.com

Toby

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:50:53 -0400
From: "MROTHE" <MROTHE@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: 1970 442 W-30 (kinda long)

> I am looking to acquire and restore a 1970 Oldsmobile 442 W-30. Could
someone
> please tell me how I would go about finding my project, Also im looking
for
> information on what the W-30 option came with.


Jamie, the first thing to do, is to research your project car dream.  In
other words, learn everything you can about it BEFORE you plunk down your
hard-earned cash.  If you want a W-30, 1970, then you would need to know
things like it came with reduced body sound deadener, all W-30's were built
in Lansing, red inner fender wells were standard, as well as an OW trans
(if automatic), front manual disc brakes standard, came with sport mirrors,
OAI package, special # distributor, aluminum W-intake, F heads, special
exhaust,  posi, and of course the badging and stripes.  Check the FAQ on
Bryceman's Old's Page (www.442.com) for a ton more info.  Be warned.  Enter
the Bryceman's site, and you'll want to stay there for a long time.  I
always do.  It's too cool.

You can usually find the 70 W-30's in Hemming's Motor News, JWO, and
various classic 'muscle for sale' type publications.  Beware of the bogus
ones.  A true Olds lover will more than likely not screw you over, though. 
In fact, I would feel very strongly in saying if anyone on this list sold
me a car, I would be certain it would be genuine, or at least the owner
would tell the truth about the car.  If you find one you like and are still
not sure, please let the list know details before you buy and we can
collectively try and help you make your decision easier, armed with
information.  I feel confident in saying I can speak for all of us here in
saying "Wanting to buy and  restore a classic Oldsmobile is the right thing
to do."

Mike Rothe

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:21:47 -0700
From: "Suzanne Rousseau" <ewok@clarkston.com>
Subject: Non-Olds: Part needed badly!

                 
I just bought a '63 Buick LeSabre and immediately upon driving it home
problems were beginning to show.  Anyway, I need a Center Support Bushing
for the driveling.  I don't need the bearing, but the rubber bushing.  I'm
not holding my breath though, as I work in an auto parts store and we could
not come up on any leads.  Does anyone have this part or know where to get
it reasonably priced???

Thank you very much...

Paul Rousseau
*1967 442
*1963 LeSabre 4dr/401

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 15:40 EDT
From: turley@symplex.com (Mike Turley)
Subject: Re: Lansing list

Please add:

> >     NAME                 HOTEL               DATE       CAR          
> >     ====                 =====               ====       ===
    Turley, Mike             None               8/21,23     66 442

Thanks,
Mike Turley
turley@symplex.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:50:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Subject: originality plus

As far as the originality debate goes, anyone who would like to hear the story
on the Corvette restoration which I concocted, original to the nth degree, may
request via email that item. If there were enough interest I might even post it
for all to read. Very tongue in cheek. Some, unfortunately, take it seriously.
Joke 'em.
- --
Chris  B. Witt
*the* Rocket Scientist, fleet includes '68 Toro, 442, and 442...
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 97 23:55:48 -0500
From: "padavano.joe" <padavano.joe@Orbital.COM>
Subject: W-Car 1/4 mile times

     After the debate here which I initiated with my posting on the Popular 
     Mechanics testing from the Nov 1985 issue, I dug out my reprints of 
     period tests of W-cars.  A few excerpts:
     ______________________________________________________________________
     
     68 Hurst/Olds      Hot Rod Magazine        July 1968
     
     455/TH400          3.91:1 final drive      G70-14 Polyglass Goodyears
     
     "In stock shape, buttoned up and hauling two people, we ran times of 
     14.10, 13.95, and 13.90.  Speeds were in the 101-103 bracket..."
     ______________________________________________________________________
     
     69 W-31            Car Life                March 1969
     
     350/TH350          3.91:1 final drive      F70-14 Polyglass Goodyears
     
     14.9 sec at 96.0 mph
     ______________________________________________________________________
     
     69 Hurst/Olds      Motor Trend             June 1969
     
     455/TH400          3.91:1 final drive      F60-15 Polyglass Goodyears
     
     "With only 600 miles on the engine, the car went 13.98 @ 101.28 in the 
     quarter street stock - no headers, no tires, no nothing."
     ______________________________________________________________________
     
     69 Hurst/Olds      Road Test               August 1969
     
     455/TH400          3.91:1 final drive      F60-15 Polyglass Goodyears
     
     "We adhered to the ROAD TEST philosophy of testing cars in normal 
     street trim.  After several practice attempts to find the throttle 
     setting which resulted in a minimum of wheel spin off the line we were 
     able to record a best e.t. of 14.08 seconds for the quarter mile, with 
     a top terminal speed of 99.88 mph on the same run."
     ______________________________________________________________________
     
     70 W-30            Road Test               March 1970
     
     455/4 spd          3.91:1 final drive      G70-14 Polyglass Goodyears
     
     "After experimenting with a variety of traction surfaces, ROAD TEST 
     was able to come up with some 1/4 mile et's worthy of this car.  The 
     best was 14.2 sec (at 102.14 mph).  Olds engineers have done a bit 
     better with the car, which is an engineering test vehicle, with their 
     lowest et being 13.7...  With an identical W-30 which had a specially 
     balanced engine plus exhaust headers, a record low et of 12.90 for the 
     1/4 mile has been posted."
     ______________________________________________________________________
     
     70 W-30            Hot Rod Magazine        May 1970
     
     455/TH400          3.91:1 final drive      G70-14 Polyglass Goodyears
     
     "The W-30 ran 14.10 seconds at 100.55 mph in full dress.  Removing the 
     air filter element and air-inlet flapper gate, and adding a set of 
     Autolite A42 plugs, reduced elapsed time to 13.98, though the speed 
     was nearly the same at 100.78 mph."
     ______________________________________________________________________
     
     70 W-31            Hot Rod Magazine        May 1970
     
     350/TH350          3.91:1 final drive      G78-14 bias ply
     
     "The W-31 also got new Autolites after running a 14.75 e.t. at 95.44 
     mph.  It then ran a 14.62 quarter, and a 96.05 mph top end."
     ______________________________________________________________________
     
     70 Supreme SX W-32 Motor Trend             April 1970
     
     455/TH400          3.08:1 final drive      G70-14 bias ply
     
     14.8 seconds at 95 mph
     ______________________________________________________________________
     
     Joe Padavano
     padavano.joe@orbital.com
     
     66 442
     68 W-30
     69 H/O
     70 W-30

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 00:03:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: WMACHINES@aol.com
Subject: Re: 72 442 (or W-30) car or shell

In a message dated 97-08-14 04:58:51 EDT, you write:

<< I am still looking for a 72 Cutlass Supreme 442 (or W-30) convertible to
 restore. I have a mint southern frame here just waiting. If the car is
 whole, the drivetrain is not necessary. It must be a 'real 442' or W-30
 though, with the Cutlass Supreme body style. Thanx. >>

Hi Ken, the only 442 or W-30 body style that you can get is the Cutlass Coup
style.

The 442 and W-30 option were availible only on the Cutlass Supreme
Convertable.
And one other style was the 72 H/O.  You could get the W-30 engine but no 442
package such as the small pinstriping. So you are stuck in either getting a
Supreme convertable body as a 442 or buy a H/O which is big $$$$.  So my
friend you may have to get a Coup if you want a 442.  Next option is to get a
70 or 71 SX that has 
a 455 engine basis but still no 442 or W-30 allowed unless again its a
convert.

W MACHINES (Mark Prince)
two 1972 442 W-30 Hardtops on the Cutlass S body style
one auto the other 4spd.  Total production is 772 W-30's
113 converts and 659 Hardtops for the 1972 year.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 00:09:09 -0400
From: Don Sowers <dstaxpro@lex.infi.net>
Subject: Re: North/South

John Pajak wrote:
> 
> ---"Lloyd W. Culp"  wrote:
> >
> >  Terry,
> >
> > The elite are from the South.  There are some quite a few others
> such as Tim
> > Churchill from the North though.
> >
> > Bill Culp
> > Decatur, Alabama
> >
> > PS.  The Olds FAQ can help in engie identification.  Expect those
> smart
> > allec Yankees to pipe up w/the facts though.
> >
> 
> *********************
> I guess you consider Maryland a northern state!
> 
> ===
> John Pajak                Smart Allec Yankee
> Lexington Park, Maryland
> 
> JSPajak@rocketmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> _____________________________________________________________________
> Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Guys,

According to my wife's family, you are all Yankees.  Her family in
Coffee Springs, Dothan, etc., Alabama consider anyone north of
Montgomery a Yankee.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Aug 97 00:20:35 EDT
From: Paul Tews <102073.1575@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Hello and Olds ad

   First I would like to say hello to everyone on the list as this is my first
post.
I have been monitering the digest for some time now and would have liked to 
post something sooner. But I am usually several days behind any current threads
as I download several digests into an ancient (nearly runs on kerosene) laptop
and read them all at once at work once or twice a week. I work at Walt Disney
World as a Monorail Systems Specialist and we have to take turns sitting at the
station just waiting to respond when a train has a problem. Which leads me to 
the other half of my subject. Here at WDW we have a cast (employee) paper
called " Eyes & Ears " which features articles about WDW happenings and
cast members can run free classified ads. In this weeks edition there is an ad
for a:
    `68 Oldsmobile Delmont 88 - ps, pb, convertible, new top. 941/424-0193.
I know nothing about this car or it`s owner. My interest is in helping an Olds
enthusiast to hook up with a cast member.
   My ride is a `69 Cutlass S Convertible with gold paint and white interior and
top. "Nugget" has a 350 2-barrel with HEI, and I beleave the Jet-a-way auto-
matic. The paint was redone by the former owner and the interior was redone 
locally but not to restoration. I have picked up a `68 455 BB with `C` heads
and what I am told is a 3:55 posi from a `72 Ch*v*ll* that will bolt right in.
Some 
financial setbacks have delayed installations and now 6 day workweeks
due to undermanning are taking their toll on my time( BTW Disney is hiring
if any mechanics are looking.) but are fixing the finances.
   Hope this isn`t too long. If anyone want me to look at the car for them
E-mail
me at 102073.1575@compuserve.com as I won`t be reading the digest again 
until next week.

			Happy Oldsmobiling
Paul (2s) Tews
Orlando,Fl.
`69 Cutlass S Convert.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:50:24 -0500
From: dhamlett@mitec.net
Subject: Re: 72 442 convertible frames

mackk@netinc.ca wrote:
> 
> Ok, I have a southern A-body frame I picked up a while ago, and I was
> told it was off a 72 cutlass. If I want to build a 72 442 convertible
> though, will there be problems because of the difference of frames
> between hardtops and convertibles?? Are the body mount holes different
> or something? Thanx for any help.
> 
> Ken
> 
> * 72 Cutlass Supreme *

The body might mount up the same, but if you try and drop a convertible
body on that frame your gonna have a major problem really quickly.  The
body will sag and the doors probably wont even shit right because that
frame is lacking the boxed rails that go underneath the floorpan
section.  Sorry.

- -- 

- -----------------------------------------
      Dan Hamlett
      1966 Cutlass Convertible
      1995 Cutlass Supreme SL
      mailto:dhamlett@mitec.net
      http://www.mitec.net/~dhamlett
- -----------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 00:53:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Subject: Misc digest resp's, motor Q's, etc.

[[As per usual, my text in brackets... -RS-]]

> Is it really worth buying a rebuilt motor from a store like Pep Boys or
someth
ing?  What parts are new, and what's re-used?  If I were to shell out cash like
that, I wouldn't want a crankshaft with 150,000 miles on it... S. Dave Ward

[[Yes, Dave, esp. a 403- they're only about $1000 here at Auto Zone, and the
part
s alone come to about $600 if you do it yourself. Comes with a guarantee, too,
wh
ich your owm motor ot that from your neighbor does not. Someday IÕll tell you
abo
ut the 403 From Hell, a "good running" motor bought from a friend of my father
in
 law...]]
- -------------------------
     Subject: Stuck A/C fitting

[[Use heat, forget the o-rings, replace them anytime the fitting is dismantled.
A
lso, candle wax applied after the fitting is heated acts as a nice penetrating
lu
bricant. Then, work it back-n-forth until the nut breaks loose from the line,
as
long as it takes. ]]
- ----------
     Sparky's Toro problem solved

[[Ah, yes, the RS Rule #1 of troubleshooting: Look *first* at the last thing
"rep
aired" just before the trouble began...]]
- ----------------
     I'd like to find a good core 455 motor to put into my '68 Cutlass conv. My
intent is to find a good core motor and do a full topline, balance and
blueprint but streetable motor that will run on pump gas,drive the A/C and
auto, and have enough vacumn so the power brakes work.
     1. Which is the best 455 core for my needs?

[[See the FAQ, in FAQ't, that's exactly the question that arose so often that I
b
egan writing about the different blocks, heads, cranks, etc. which led to a
large
 part of the FAQ. -RS-]]

     2.Is the Toro motor with the steel crank worth looking for? Which years?
Which block and head codes do I want?

[[Rumor! Rumor! Rumormonger! I have 2-3 68 Toro motors, guess what cranks?
Nodula
r, AT. As stated, look into 68-72 455-2V motors. You can ascertain forgitude
w/o
dismantling the motor...-RS-]]

     3.Any recs on compression ratio? I figure 9.5:1 is prob the max for
today's
gas.

[[About right, which is about what you get with what is sold as "10.25:1"
pistons
, today's Fel-Pro 0.040" gasket, and no or minimal head cutting. ]]

4.Are any headers avail for my convertible? Do I want them? or cast 442
manifolds
?

[[Use 442 dual-xst manifolds, cost same or less, far less hassle, and easy to
liv
e with. Minimal loss of power. ]]

5. Any suggestions on cam? As I said, I want enough vacuum to power the
discs and I want a decent idle, but I also wouldn't mind enough tone to let
others know I'm driving a "Rocket"

[[Discs? Your 68 has disc brakes?! I wish, mine have manual drum brakes, which
de
fine the term "nearly adequate..." Cam, others have already mentioned the
viable
Mondello grinds. Other places sell cams, Dave Smith I might buy, but I consider
t
he Summit/ Jegs/ etc. selection mostly Chevy grinds on Olds blanks, good for
the
unwashed masses perhaps but not the Olds-educated elite like you & me. -RS-]]
- --------------

     From: "Igor" <todorovb@cadvision.com>
     Subject: 1981 Delta engine swap from 307 to 455 help
Has anyone swaped a 455 into a 1981 Delta 88 in place of a 307?  How
difficult is it?  Is it possible at all?  What should I try to avoid?

[[Possible, seen it done. If the 307 has 6A or 7A heads, you'll need the xst
mani
folds from the 455 or similar- the common #1-5 pair should fit nicely. Medium
dif
ficult, nothing too bad, no welding or cutting probably, lots of piddly
wrenching
. Try to avoid... mistakes. ]]

     The motor if from a 1976 Delta 88.  I also intend to swap a TH400 from the
same car into mine in place of a TH250.  Is this possible and again how
difficult. What kind of a performance gain will I have?

[[Possible. Might have to relocate the trans x-member? 400 will likely be
long-ta
il unit, so you'd need a shorter driveshaft with the larger TH400 yoke made up,
e
asy for any driveshaft pro to do. $100? Or, have the tranny guy build it as a
400
 short shaft, put a 400 yoke on the shaft yourself. If the lengths are the same
T
H400 vs. 250... dunno. Another alternative: have the trans made as a TH375: 400
c
ase & guts but with the smaller TH350 size output shaft. Less yoke-fiddling.
Ask
your trans expert about feasibility. As for the trans swap itself, easy as any
tr
ans R&R. Gain: respectable. Esp. if one were to spice up that smogger 455 with,
s
ay, a nice cam. -RS-]]
- -----------------
     From: JR <joertexas@earthlink.net>
     Subject: 425 Olds Questions
I am looking into buying a 425 Olds engine to help my 72 S move along a
bit better. (Actually, I want to go hunting 5.0 Rustangs!) I know next
to nothing about this engine; good, bad or indifferent. I am seeking a
little enlightenment from wiser (and probably greyer) heads...

[[See the FAQ, goes into much detail about the pros & cons of the 425 vs. 455.
I
vote 425 if you can get one, paint it gold, put a "Rocket 350" aircleaner lid
on
it, and keep 'em guessing! The main problems: most are 45-degree cam blocks,
pist
ons are a bit pricey & hard to find vs. the 455. Try to get a Toronado 425 if
you
 go that route. -RS-]]
- ----------
     From: Matt Cremean <ccremean@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu>
     Subject: Heads swap-advice/help needed
I am reading the FAQ and it says that if I put #10 260 heads on my 350,
It'll yeild a 9.91 compression ratio. I have a 73 with #8 Smog heads
right now. It seems this is the highest CR for any 350 on that
spreadsheet. What is this change due to (in laymans terms)? Just the
smaller chambers?

[[ Don't do it. Just because the FAQ says it CAN be done does not mean it
SHOULD
be done! Does the FAQ not say, "just for amusement" or something similar? The
260
 heads have puny little valves, scrawny little port runners, half-sized intake
po
rts, and lame exhaust ports. Compression is the most basic built-in hard to
chang
e part of the power package, but all other things must work in concert, as
others
 have pointed out. Stick with heads with similar port sizes, smaller chambers:
pr
e-#8 heads. ]]

     But then I read somewhere (forget where, any help?) on the FAQ that a
68-9 350 can yeild 10.25-10.5:1 compression ratios. So, why does it say
in that spreadsheet that they're only running 9:1?

[[There's the difference between "advertised" CRatio and caclulated or
measured.
Advertised might figure itÕll be that much after "normal carbon buildup"
(whateve
r level that is) has accumulated. The spreadsheet numbers are actual
measurement
numbers or assumptions based on experience. ]]
- ----------------
Subject: Air Cleaner for HEI

   What did the factory come up with back then (68-72) when you had HEI
for an air cleaner.  I can't believe they would dent it up to make it
fit. Chris Sparks

[[Uh, because HEI was not available back then? Though there was a Pointless
Ignit
ion system, shared by Pontiac, maybe Corvette, etc. Olds called it "Ultra High
Vo
ltageĶ and it included an electronic distributor with mech & vac advance,
"black
box" usually mounted on the front of the RH inner fender, red ignition coil, &
re
d dist'r cap.
  Seems like any HEI-year air cleaner base oughta work for folks converting to
HE
I. ]]
- ----------
   The '65 442 will be running this weekend.  All told, in this past 30 days,
I changed the 3:08 rear with a 3:55 posi, swapped the cast iron 455 Toro for
a Torker, and replaced the 39 degree cam with a moderate 45.  I know it
won't scream, but it'll yell a bit now.  Let you know Monday. Paul Brillhart

[[ DOH! You put a 45 degree cam in a 39 degree block!? Apparently, anyhow, the
45
5's are "39 degree" nominal. Is that a typo, you meant to say something else?
If
it's true, it'll "scream" allright... AT you. The gears change you will like.
Exc
. @ the fuel store.]]
- -------------
    Re: Toro VIN decoding:
615790=Unit Number (that's pretty high; sure it's not 165790?)
Dr. Robert Barry  MailTo:RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu

[[ ToroÕs commonly started off numbering at 500001 or even 600001, so it's not
as
 high as it first appears. -RS-]]
- ------------
From: RegalBG@aol.com
Subject: Some Questions

I am restoring a 1966 Dynamic 88 convertable.  I brought the car without and
engine or transmission.  Later I found a 1967 Toronado with the 425 inch
motor.  I have since pulled the engine from the Toro and it now sits on the

[[Good call on the motor. Very good call.]]

engine stand.  I have a TH400 trans for it,  but before I put the two
together,  can I use the Toronado flywheel with the TH400 transmission?  I

[[Oh, yes, the 425 flexplate will not fit later *cranks* after '67, but the
tork
converter holes will match up right nice. You will however want to use a
non-Toro
 oil filter mount. You can and should use the Toro oil pan, dipstick, & guide
tub
e. I'd consider using the oil fill tube from a 68-up motor, with the twist-lock
c
ap instead of the pre-68 press-on cap. Lose the Toro's front motor mount that
att
aches to the front cover, too. Well, not Ōlose", but rather "donate" to a local
T
oro enthusiast. YouÕll want xst mans to fit your chassis, too- I think that
body
used the A-T pair for single xst, A-S for duals. S xmans are rare, but
findable.
]]

    have the starter for the Dynamic and for the Toro,  are they different
besides the Toro starter being on the right side and the Dynamic on the left?

[[IÕd use the Toro starter, but put the conventional snout on it to fit the
non-T
oro chassis. Manuals say the Toro starter has better windings, makes more
torque
(geez I hate that spelling, why oh why is it not "tork"). Snout swap is very,
ver
y easy. Oughta refresh the brushes while you're in there, too. And a new
solenoid
. ]]

 Also,  I need a different fuel pump.

[[No, you don't, but *mightaswell* get a new one, eh?]]

The Toronado pump has three fuel lines
(it had air conditioning) and my Dynamic dosen't have a return line (no air)
 What type of fuel pump do I get?  Toronado without air or Dynamic without
air?  Will the Toronado pump without air still have a return line?  I hope
you help me get this ride on the road once again.

[[ Get a fuel pump for a car similar to what yours is, a '66 Big Car with Big
Mot
or, and you're all set. You may also just put a blocked off piece of hose on
that
 3rd line, sealing it. -RS-]]

- --
Chris  B. Witt
*the* Rocket Scientist, fleet includes '68 Toro, 442, and 442...
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:03:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Chris Brown Witt" <wittchri@pilot.msu.edu>
Subject: '68 Toro W34 425 motor spotted

  68 Olds Service Manual "error" ?

Glancing thru the 68 SM the other day, I saw a photo alleging to be the '68 W34
motor.  Beginning of the Toronado motor section, I believe. Yet, what they show
is clearly a '67 Toronado 425 motor! (OK, it could be a pre-68 400 motor also.)
Boy, they look alike at first glance, so they figured, "hey, who will ever
know?". Well, *I* do. That's not a 455 at all, itÕs a sham, a leftover 425 that
they dressed up with an OAI intake for photo purposes.
  Not that it matters a lot of course. Brings up the key ID features that
 distinguish a 425 from a 455 at first glance.
- --
Chris  B. Witt
*the* Rocket Scientist, fleet includes '68 Toro, 442, and 442...
wittchri@pilot.msu.edu

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Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:06:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: David1756@aol.com
Subject: Re: Trying to find a dealer

Maybe you should call the public library in Redondo Beach and ask them to
look in the telephone directories of that era, and keep looking until the
name goes away.  If they're willing, you could ask the local newspaper for
help as well.  Or perhaps find out the name of the current Olds dealers there
and call to ask if they know about Romel.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:21:53 -0700
From: "Mike Aldana" <maldana@digitalwave.net>
Subject: Chromeplating,lower costs

Now replating,and repairing pitted pot metal. Triple plating on bumpers,
aluminum tirm,pot metal. Aluminum wheels triple plated for $110.00 ea.
Bumpers start at $160.00(camaro,mustang) $210.00 larger bumpers your cores.
Shipping bumpers cross country is no problem with UPS, when they go back to
work.... and generally costs
under $30.00 ea. with $500.00 insurance. Turnaround time is two weeks and
all work is show quality, and fullu guaranteed to please. For more info
email to maldana@digitalwave.net or call at 760-357-0713

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 05:36:43 GMT
From: Robert Barry <RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu>
Subject: SAGA: Got my SX home, finally! (REAL LONG)

Well, folks, I can finally say I've got my Oldses all rounded up and in my
driveway, and along the way I've "purified" my holdings a bit. This is kind
of a very long post (hence the "SAGA:" identifier), so delete it now if you
don't want to read it. I also think Greg would boot anyone who quoted this
whole post in order to offer a one-word reply... ;)

Until three weeks ago, I had five cars, three of which in my driveway (my
403 Electra, my '69 Toro, and my '68 Toro), and two of which were occupying
space in my parents' driveway 130 miles away (my '70 Cutlass Supreme SX, and
a '76 Monte Carlo [hey, it was free...])

A few weeks ago, I dropped my wife and daughter off at my in-laws' place,
and took a trip to my parents to part the rusty Monte. I saved the disc
spindles, the drivetrain and the posi 10-bolt. I put the 15" Rally rims on
my SX, to replace the rusty 14" rims with bald tires that had been holding
it up. The rest I sent packing off to the junkyard without any regret.

That cleared the way for the grand finale last weekend: getting all my
"stuff" up here in Rhode Island, so I can begin working on it more
regularly. The plan went as follows:

1) Rent truck and trailer, load up the '68 Toro, and drive to Connecticut
2) Unload '68 Toro, pull its 455, load it back on the trailer and deliver it
to Don Ross
3) Return with empty trailer, install engine, transmission and front clip on
Cutlass, load it on the trailer, fill the truck with the parts I've
accumulated over the years (engines, fenders, bumpers, etc), and return to
Rhode Island.
4) Once back here, unload the car, swap the non-Olds parts with a parts guy
up here for more Olds parts, and store everything in my
basement/garage/neighbor's garage/on the side of my garage, under a
tarp/anywhere.

The time frame for this was to be from Thursday morning, when I would pick
up the truck first thing, with a return to RI scheduled for Saturday
afternoon, following a family party that we were obligated to attend. I
figured this was possible, if no major wrenches got thrown into the gears.

Here's how it actually worked, wrenches and all:

1) Truck & trailer combo were waiting for me at 7:30 Thursday morning, so
that was a good start. Back at the house, the '68 Toro started right up,
though it was loud without the exhaust, but my neighbors are getting used to
this... :)   I was able to drive it up on the trailer and secure it with
just a little help from a nearby neighbor. Nice new U-Haul truck, 700 miles
on it, got us to CT with no fuss, though by the time I loaded up the tools,
all the parts that might have to go on the SX, and negotiated traffic, it
was 2:00pm when we rolled into CT. Aside from the time, Stage One is a success.

2) Drove the Toro off, shut it off for the last time (sniff...), and got to
work pulling the motor after a quick lunch (had to eat then, as I get into a
"zone" when working on a car, and won't feel hunger or thirst until it gets
extreme). This portion went pretty quickly, with only one tricky hidden bolt
on the Toro's flexplate cover that held me up shortly. The trick about
pulling a Toro motor is getting the engine far enough forward to allow the
flexplate to clear the bellhousing, while dealing with the halfshaft
immediately in front of the oil pan; this is espcially difficult, as the
halfshaft is attached to the transmission itself, so the bellhousing and
halfshaft are two fixed points. The solution is to use a floor-jack under
the front differential, to angle the front of the transmission up, while
angling the engine forward and lifting/tugging at everything. I pulled the
transmission/axle assembly setup separately, which was quite simple once I
remembered to remove the last halfshaft attaching bolt (duh!) that was
hanging the whole thing up. 

By the time this was all out of the car, it was getting too dark to get the
car on a trailer and over to Don's, so Thursday night I worked on preparing
the engine for the Cutlass. I only managed to break off two exhaust manifold
bolts, and round off the head of a third. :(  I attacked the rounded bolt
first; over time, the 9/16" head rusts down in size to 14mm, but one bolt
had oxidized to the point a 14mm socket was too loose, resulting in it being
rounded off. The next step is to further reduce the bolt to allow a 1/2"
12-point socket to be hammered on, so after a few hours on this, I had
chiseled the head down and hammered the 1/2" socket on, which allowed me to
break off *that* bolt [sigh...]. Well, three broken bolts, it's 8:35pm, and
the Sears where I can buy a stud-extractor is 20 minutes away. I do the
"drive like a maniac" trip to the Sears, find out there are no more
stud-extractors in stock, and go off down a commercial strip at 8:57pm in
search of something to get these bolts out, so the next day's schedule won't
be thrown off entirely. I beg the guy closing up the Pep-Boys a 1/4 mile
down the road to let me in [thanks, guy!], and search their racks in vain
for a stud extractor. I ask a salesman if he has a stud-extractor, he goes
and looks over the same shelves I did with the same blank look in his eyes
that I had in mine, and pronounces that they don't carry them [thanks,
guy!]. I grab a couple sizes of bang-in extractors, and head home.  This
day's been going for too long, so I clean up and spread a bag of speedy-dry
under the Toro, but between arranging all the little things, cleaning up,
etc, I don't get to bed until 3:00am.

Up at 7:00 the next day, I get a stud-extractor from a regular auto-parts
store, bring it home, and *success*! ... on one bolt. The knurls on the tool
just roll around the two other bolts, no matter what I file, jam in there,
etc. (in case you're thinking "Why didn't he use vice-grips?", I have to say
that these bolts just *laughed* at any pair I threw at them; as for a torch,
I didn't have one; penetrating oil didn't do a thing). I used the cutoff
wheel to get a flat drilling surface on the end of one, and used one of the
bang-in extractors, which quickly snapped off... :( I finally end up cutting
that bolt flush with the head, and gradually drilling it out and cleaning up
the threads with a tap. The threads aren't perfect, but they'll work just
fine. With the third bolt, I came upon the secret to this whole mess. I used
the other bang-in remover (which only has a 1/4" head on it; that would snap
off my 1/4" socket in no time, Craftsman or not!), but in conjunction with a
pair of vise-grips; slowly, the last broken bolt backed out. Whew!

Well, this second stage is WAY behind schedule at this point, but if the
bolts were unremoveable, I would have to cart them to a machine shop for
removal, and allow time for that. Oh, and did I mention that I was borrowing
mom's car for all errands (no need to give U-haul $.49/mile for my
parts-store trips!), so I had to drop her off and pick her up from work, an
hour each time? Well, anyway, Don's got a 1:00pm doctor's appointment, so I
use my new come-along, load the Toro and secure it on its trailer, call him
for directions, and get working on finishing this second stage!

Well, due to a mixup with route numbers, I pull into Don's driveway at
12:40pm, WAY behind schedule. If you don't know about Don Ross, he's an
Olds/AMC collector who has reduced his collection to *only* 13 cars
(including a number of first-generation Toronados, a '75 H/O, a pair of
Toronado XS's, and the one-and-only prototype '77 Toronado XSR), from about
the thirty he had a number of years ago. I was selling him the Toro w/o
drivetrain as a parts car for another '68 he and his grandson are restoring,
but as soon as he saw my very rough '68, he said "Yup, *that's* the one
we're going to restore!". When I saw the original restoration project, I
could understand why: *no* floors, fenders with little holding them on the
body, bad and missing interior, etc. I tell you, Don is not one to part out
cars!

3) Finally back with the SX around 3:00, it's time to get the motor in. I
swap over the oil filter mount and valvecovers to the Cutlass units, remove
the Toro motor mount and get the Cutlass mounts on there. Oh, I break the
dipstick tube off, but save pulling and resealing the pan when I am able to
remove the broken bit from the block from above with a screw, some
vise-grips and a hammer. I take a break to pick up mom, and when I return I
realize I'm getting tired of doing this all by myself, so I call an old
friend who can usually be relied upon to lend a hand, and get him and his
girlfriend to come over and help me lift things around. We first install the
factory A/C box, with the lines, compressor and condensor that have remained
connected and intact for the last 13 years, and which surprisingly still
holds some of its charge of freon. Next, we get the TH400 out of the
basement, and ease that into place with the help of some rolling floor-jacks
and a board to roll the tranny into place on. It's pushing 9:00pm when we
get the engine on the hoist to lower it into the car, and by the time we
work the angles of the engine and tranny into alignment, and get some
bellhousing bolts started, it's well past 10:00. The motor-mount holes don't
line up, so I clean up and call it an early night at 12:30am.

Up Saturday morning, I still can't get the mounts to line up, so I get
another pair from the store, where the holes line up differently. I also
make the hour trip up to Fusick's for a new dipstick tube, and get back by
11:10am. My friend is over again, we get the new mounts on, and they *still*
don't line up! After a few hours of trying combinations of engine and frame
mounts, loosening and tightening bolts, slotting holes, etc. we get
everything bolted in solid. All the time, of course, my wife is providing
the "helpful" reminder that the family party we're supposed to be at began
an hour before, and we *really* ought to be there by now...

It's 4:00pm now, and we were supposed to return from the party by 6:30pm to
head back to RI, so I take advantage of my friend's presence to help me get
some engine blocks, doors and hoods onto the truck, and use the hoist to get
the complete motor from the Monte Carlo onto the truck. We throw a couple of
trannys back there, and then I decide enough's enough, close everything up,
take a shower (for the first time since Wednesday! I guess working on cars
becomes like one of those primative "vision-quest" rituals where you go
without anything for days until you reach a higher spiritual state; same
thing, except I just reach a higher state of greasiness), and head to the
party, fulfilling some vital family obligations.

At the party, I put it out my head that I'm leaving that night with a
Cutlass that's still missing its front-clip, and that I still have a
basement full of large and small parts, along with a couple axles, to go on
the truck.

The food and rest I get at the party do me some good, and I promise my wife
that we'll be on the road in "a few hours" when we get back to the house at
8:00pm (like she hasn't heard _that_ line before!). The front clip goes on
pretty easily, but I need help from my father getting the axles onto the
truck, even with the hoist. We use the come-along and a tow strap to inch
the still-dead SX onto the trailer (my dream, which died a quick death, was
to *drive* the SX onto the trailer that Saturday... hahahahahahahah...). By
about 11:00pm, we're in emergency rush-mode, and the idea of returning with
all my parts on that one trip has gone out the window. I'm trying to get
things onto the truck that are important for getting the SX in self-moving
shape (i.e. the driveshaft, stuff like that), my wife is furious that we're
leaving so late (well, her sister was visiting to stay over at _our_ house
in RI that night, which might have had something to do with her bad
attitude... ;) So we get on the road by 11:30, carrying less than I'd like,
but probably still more than the truck would like (since mixing engine
blocks and fenders is a bad idea, we segregated the engines to the driver's
side of the cargo box, causing the truck to "list" noticeably to the
driver's side).

The final part of Stage Three ends when we pull up three hours later in
Rhode Island, dead tired, but with the SX in my possession for the first
time in a decade.

4) Sunday, I discover with delight that I can back the trailer up my rather
sloping driveway (a big concern when we bought the house earlier this year);
I don't want to think about how I'd try to get it up there otherwise. I
unload the Cutlass, and then head off to the parts yard Everett Horton uses
to swap some parts. I swapped the Ch*vy 350 motor for two (maybe three) sets
of early SB Olds heads (#'s 4, 6 & 7), and Everett thinks he might have
someone interested in my non-Olds body parts. I'm just happy to be rid of
the stuff, as I might have trouble fitting the front-clip from a '68 Caprice
into my 10'x12' basement workshop...

This week has been occupied by sheetrocking a room, so the SX has just sat
since it's been here this week. It's not running yet, but now that it's
here, I don't have to load up my tools and travel hours to do any work to
it. I should be able to get it running after next-week's vacation, and
registered shortly thereafter.

I'm just telling you one thing; it BETTER be worth it. While this is
supposed to be a hobby, and hobbies are supposed to be enjoyable and
relaxing, sometimes the effort involved in just getting a car going is
anything but.

If you're still reading at this point, I apologize for the length of this
"saga". I guess if there's anything to learn from this, perhaps it's the
value of moderation. I had much too much stuff to do, and much too much
stuff to move, in much too little time. If I had last weekend to do all over
again, I'm not sure I could arrange things any better. I do suppose that not
being such a packrat would have made moving the stuff much easier. If I had
been a bit clearer-headed, I probably would have come to the conclusion that
these cars aren't worth the effort.

Thankfully, I'm not clear-headed when it comes to Oldses.... :)
_______________________________________________________
Dr. Robert Barry  MailTo:RBarry@Sequent1.Providence.Edu
Theology Dept, Providence College, Providence, RI 02918

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End of oldsmobile-digest V1 #800
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